The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - 111. How To Get Over Your Ex ｜ Guy Winch

00:00:00.000 The research on couples is such that most couples therapists can watch like a five-minute snippet of a couple argue and predict a divorce with accuracies of over 90%.

00:00:13.740 Oh, that's rough.

00:00:18.480 As a therapist, I tend to think it's great.

00:00:20.500 But okay, yes.

00:00:22.800 But it's rough for the couple who's arguing in that way.

00:00:25.040 Why that is, is because it is how couples argue that gives you a window into the relationship

00:00:32.100 satisfaction and longevity.

00:00:34.580 It's how they process conflict.

00:00:37.620 And there's several factors that have been shown to, you know, bode well for couples

00:00:42.640 versus bode poorly for couples.

00:00:48.160 Welcome to the Michaela Peterson podcast.

00:00:50.620 This is episode 111 with Guy Winch.

00:00:54.300 Guy Winch is a psychologist and author and host of his own psychology podcast.

00:00:59.000 He specializes in the topics of trauma, heartbreak, and couples relationships.

00:01:03.700 He's written several self-help books and co-hosts a podcast called Dear Therapists,

00:01:09.520 which is pretty entertaining.

00:01:11.260 I wanted to speak with him about the subject of heartbreak, how to heal a broken heart.

00:01:15.980 He authored How to Fix a Broken Heart.

00:01:18.800 For anyone having a hard time in your relationship or trying to get over someone, this might help.

00:01:23.580 Again, like I said last episode, this is an episode from about a month ago when things

00:01:28.040 were a bit crazy in my life.

00:01:29.580 I'll be doing a Q&A soon to update everyone, and things are much better now.

00:01:33.240 I hope you enjoy this episode and have a fantastic week.

00:01:36.260 If you enjoy this content, please remember to hit subscribe.

00:01:47.620 Dr. Guy Winch, welcome to my podcast.

00:01:50.320 Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:53.020 I'm very excited to talk to you. I had somebody on Instagram reach out and say you have to get

00:01:58.840 this guy on. He knows everything about relationships and heartbreak and trauma and I've

00:02:06.200 been on a how to deal with trauma kick. But I thought for this episode we should talk specifically

00:02:12.080 about relationships and heartbreak. But before we get started could you give a brief background

00:02:18.340 about who you are and what it is you do so i'm a psychologist and i also write books i have three

00:02:26.440 self-help books um i also have three ted talks um and i have a podcast called dear therapists

00:02:33.420 with co-host lori gottlieb in which we um have guests write us letters in which they need advice

00:02:38.880 but we bring them on for actual kind of therapy session live cool and then we give them advice

00:02:43.660 and then they have to do it and report back on how it went so you kind of get a full arc of the

00:02:48.000 story each week. Oh, that's interesting. So you talk to people and they come back on the podcast

00:02:54.200 to tell you how it's going and to tell the audience. Yeah. But not just that, when we do it,

00:02:58.500 we don't talk about the case beforehand. So my co-host and I, we have to jump in as two therapists

00:03:03.420 blind, not knowing what the other one thinks and try and navigate it to an interesting place. And

00:03:08.120 so it's, it's, uh, interesting all along. That is interesting. Okay. Okay. So you have a number

00:03:15.420 of self-help books your most recent one what was your most recent one about called how to fix a

00:03:20.960 broken heart it had a has a ted talk of the same name and it's about really what happens to us when

00:03:27.720 we have romantic heartbreak um because a lot happens to us okay so let's start there then

00:03:34.720 um i remember when i was i suppose this happens to everybody somewhat but when i was little like

00:03:42.580 in grade nine or 10 and had my first real relationship. And I thought I was going to

00:03:46.940 grow up and get married to him. Um, and was 100% certain that was going to happen. And when we

00:03:53.540 broke up, I was just distraught, like unbelievably distraught. So what does happen, um, with

00:04:00.840 heartbreak? So two things, actually, first of all, what's interesting about heartbreak is that thing

00:04:07.180 that happened to you in ninth or 10th grade happens to us in our twenties and our thirties

00:04:11.880 and our 40s, we get similarly distraught at all ages.

00:04:16.000 And I work with heartbroken people of all ages.

00:04:18.120 It kind of doesn't matter how old you are.

00:04:19.720 If you're truly heartbroken, you are heartbroken.

00:04:23.180 And what's interesting about heartbreak is that there is no other common experience in

00:04:28.600 life because heartbreak is not something you'll see in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

00:04:32.640 of Mental Disorders.

00:04:33.640 There's no such thing.

00:04:35.200 So it's just a life experience.

00:04:36.320 There is no life experience like it in which can take somebody who has no psychological

00:04:41.220 problems and render them non-functional and almost a little bit crazy um in a blink that's what's so

00:04:49.640 fascinating about it there's no other thing that the grief can make us you know very very upset but

00:04:55.100 we don't act out of sorts we don't lose our mind and do things we would never do otherwise

00:04:59.220 we do with heartbreak okay so grief and heartbreak are separate they're separate i mean i heartbreak

00:05:07.440 is a form of grief. It's one that we don't recognize so much as a sanctioned form of grief,

00:05:12.420 like we do losing a first degree relative, but our reactions are as powerful. And if you recall

00:05:18.080 back to that time, you said you were distraught. People do get devastated. They feel like they've

00:05:23.120 lost their worlds. Even as adults, they can sit in bed and not be able to eat or sleep or function

00:05:29.320 for days on end. That's all they can think about. They will do desperate acts they would never

00:05:36.240 otherwise do. And you're like, what is wrong with me that I'm doing this? But I'm just so desperate.

00:05:41.960 And so, yeah, it really does a number on us. Okay. So can we talk a bit about exactly what

00:05:47.900 happens? Like, why is it that sometimes you're in a relationship and then this happens to you

00:05:53.540 and you're distraught and kind of insane, like you said, um, why is it that, why is it that that

00:05:59.580 happens sometimes? And what exactly is happening? Is it cortisol or just on that level?

00:06:05.280 so what functional mri studies or brain scans have showed is that um the same thing roughly

00:06:11.440 the same thing happens to our brain when our love is removed when the person we love is removed from

00:06:18.320 our life or they remove themselves usually from our lives um as happens when heroin addicts are

00:06:24.720 withdrawing from heroin and if you think about it that way it kind of explains it because if you

00:06:32.360 would think of a heroin addict who was withdrawing yeah they would they would steal they would do all

00:06:36.880 kinds of terrible things they would never otherwise do but everyone goes well they were an addict

00:06:40.860 so that's how desperate they were as if that explains and she does it explains the level of

00:06:45.740 desperation the level of of change and behavior it's the same mechanisms that are getting activated

00:06:52.760 when we're heartbroken and it's that same level of absolute desperation that you would see happening

00:06:59.780 uh for an addict so so that's the why i mean when you look at the brain the brain's acting

00:07:04.500 very similar and it's at least explains why people are so out of sorts so is that is that

00:07:12.280 for specifically like an opiate withdrawal or is that just withdrawal in general the analogy was

00:07:19.260 to opiate withdrawals uh opiate uh withdrawal even to cocaine withdrawal but to like real

00:07:24.740 substance withdrawal that you really you know are looking for and i think the opiate just kind of

00:07:30.180 people associate that behavior with drug addiction so like oh yeah i know what that looks like well

00:07:34.980 it looks the same it looks the same really is the the shocking but unreasonable part

00:07:41.700 okay that's interesting that is kind of what it feels like right when you're going through it

00:07:45.780 because you're like i just want to see something that reminds me of them again or something like

00:07:49.940 like that just to get some sort of hit okay so if you're trying that's why you'll send 150 text

00:07:57.060 messages just waiting just to get one word response for that hit exactly what you said yes

00:08:01.640 wow okay so what's the best way way to deal with heartbreak so say you're in a relationship

00:08:08.300 uh say you've been broken up with is it best to go cold turkey then and to treat it kind of similar

00:08:16.380 to an addiction or to wean off how are you supposed to deal with this well i if it's possible

00:08:21.980 because sometimes it's not but if it's possible to do cold turkey i always recommend cold turkey

00:08:26.600 your goal when you're heartbroken um is to stop hurting should be right i mean to get over the

00:08:32.560 person yeah to get over them you have to stop hurting to stop hurting you have to reduce their

00:08:37.560 presence in your thoughts because right at the beginning that's 95 of your thoughts is them them

00:08:43.340 them them them them them them the more you reduce that the more you're moving away from it the more

00:08:48.420 you're recovering from it the more the less painful it becomes so that's the goal so in order to

00:08:53.440 diminish their presence in your thoughts at the stage time that you give them cold turkey is the

00:08:58.760 right way to go if it's possible it's very very difficult to do as any addict will tell you it's

00:09:07.220 actually it's actually very difficult to do and what makes it even more difficult is that almost

00:09:13.000 in every case there was a blind side involved and i say that even in cases in which you know people

00:09:19.680 say to me like well you broke up 10 times over the past two years but i never expected this one

00:09:24.800 would be the and i'm like wow you broke up 10 times and this one what's the but the thing is

00:09:30.140 that when when people are looking to break up with us they i mean unless they dated you know

00:09:35.100 unless it's, you had two or three dates, if it's been anything of any kind of substance,

00:09:39.560 most people will time it, will like decide, okay, I want to break up. Unless it's a big fight in

00:09:44.480 the moment, which is a minority of cases, it's thought through about when I'll do it. And often,

00:09:50.120 often they do it in a considerate way. Often they do it because, oh, you know, her big thing is

00:09:54.520 coming up next week. So let's not do it right before that. I'll wait till after. Oh, we have

00:09:58.460 this vacation planned. Things aren't terrible. Let's go on that vacation. Let's just get through

00:10:02.080 the holidays and so everything seems fine until they pull the trigger and then suddenly like wait

00:10:07.280 what happened things were fine a day ago that's true that's true i suppose it's difficult with

00:10:14.960 social media now too to not like you know before if you were in a different city or you just don't

00:10:20.100 see them around right and then you're not thinking about them but now with social media

00:10:23.760 and instagram it's a problem you need to you need to do the great thing and you need to

00:10:30.060 block and unfollow and defend even if it's temporarily you don't want to see what's going

00:10:34.440 on with them because to remind you they've been thinking about this for a while so they're way

00:10:39.360 ahead of you in terms of recovery and no one puts out there like here's me crying into a pillow

00:10:44.320 instagram picture you know they'll find the one moment where they're happy and post that

00:10:48.680 meanwhile you're sitting there crying into a pillow thinking like they're completely over me

00:10:52.580 well a they've had a major head start weeks months sometimes years of a head start of getting over

00:10:57.780 you and b you know again they're putting out this highly curated image of look i'm fine everyone

00:11:03.020 so it's just gonna hurt to see it so don't don't see it okay now that makes sense um so does that

00:11:12.080 mean say you've been going out with somebody and you're really good friends with them

00:11:17.200 and you're no longer romantically interested does that mean friendships off the table for exes

00:11:24.340 if temporarily i would say i mean i always say for now take a few months or however much to

00:11:32.760 truly get over them now if once you're truly over them and you know that because it's not tugging

00:11:37.920 at you in that way you want to be friends it doesn't hurt to be friends go at it but the

00:11:42.880 majority of people once it gets there are like that's going to be complicated we don't i don't

00:11:47.780 need that friendship the friend excuse and i say excuse is because it is an excuse at the beginning

00:11:53.680 It's just, no, I can be friends without actually having my guts ripped out every time I talk to them.

00:11:58.860 And no, you can't. Not at the beginning.

00:12:02.180 Okay. Fair enough.

00:12:04.900 When, if you're in a relationship with someone and you're trying to make it work,

00:12:09.580 how do you know, are there signs that can tell you when you should leave

00:12:14.120 and when you should keep trying to make it work?

00:12:16.900 um that's such a great question because it depends on all kinds of variables i mean my

00:12:25.220 general philosophy is if you can keep working at it and you know i mean relationships even ones

00:12:31.540 that have lasted the 40 50 years are a constant study in working on things i mean circumstance

00:12:36.300 changes people you know change so you you constantly have to shift and tweak and work

00:12:41.220 on things so so my philosophy is if you can keep working and oh by the way which means together

00:12:47.080 not you unilaterally in your head doing what you think the relationship needs without the other

00:12:51.600 person participating in that or being aware you're doing it if you can work and communicate together

00:12:56.760 for as long as you can you should unless you're both like we can but we're both unhappy but

00:13:02.200 otherwise yeah i mean because i just think that's the you have something invested there why why not

00:13:08.020 if things are mutual. Okay. How do you get over somebody if you can't stop thinking they were,

00:13:15.720 you know, the one person for you, or if you tried dating, you know, say you went out for,

00:13:21.340 with 15 people, just like small dates, some sort of Tinder style dating. And you found this one

00:13:26.640 person, you had a great relationship for a few years and you thought they were the one. And then

00:13:31.300 that falls apart. How do you get over the mindset of that was the one person that was for me?

00:13:38.620 That's a very hard thing to do.

00:13:41.000 But one thing I always suggest to people is kind of what you said.

00:13:44.120 In other words, there's not the one or my soulmate makes it sound like, you know, seven and a half billion people on the planet.

00:13:50.580 I lost count, I think, seven and a half, whatever, billion people.

00:13:53.600 There's one, one that matches me.

00:13:55.940 And it's like, no, no, no, there are probably many hundreds of thousands that match you.

00:14:00.240 It took you 15 of those Tinder style, you know, explorations to find this one.

00:14:06.800 maybe that's your ratio you've got a you know one in 15 is the one for you all that means is yeah

00:14:12.500 you've got to get out there and start getting those numbers in and finding the next one once

00:14:17.460 you're free to do that so people get lost in the thing you know get trapped into the thing it's the

00:14:22.360 only person it's not the only person it might be hard for you to find someone which might be true

00:14:27.380 for you but then all right then the sooner you start looking when you feel up to it then it

00:14:31.480 might take a while but you will if you keep looking it's hard for you you just have to generate more

00:14:35.700 options eventually you will right so so rather than take the one person as the sign there's only

00:14:40.940 one take them as no it's possible to find if i put that much work into it so now i know how much

00:14:45.680 work i have to put into it to find it again once i'm over this person obviously yeah so how do you

00:14:53.000 know when to get into the dating market again you know it's it's tough people always kind of

00:15:00.100 ask me like how do i know if it's too soon yeah on another date and i basically well if you can

00:15:05.600 make it through without crying is my scientifically rigorous standard you can make it through without

00:15:11.980 you know bursting into tears um you might be ready because you know it part of getting of

00:15:18.720 becoming ready is flexing those muscles again is putting yourself out there is you know you know

00:15:25.500 interacting in that way is flirting and you know texting and trying to get banter going i mean

00:15:31.340 that's part of getting yourself ready is kind of revisiting those those social muscles that we

00:15:36.940 don't use when we're in a relationship as much in that in that in um you know to meet someone at

00:15:42.220 least in that way so it's this thing if you wait until you're for sure ready you've waited too

00:15:47.240 long and so you know as long as you think you know what i think i might be interested in someone

00:15:53.300 you don't have to be ready emotionally fully you can say to a person i'm recently out of a

00:15:57.120 relationship i want to take this slow but if there's someone who at least on paper even

00:16:00.600 theoretically seems that might be interesting to you then take it slowly and see you know again

00:16:05.240 if you're too preoccupied you're not paying attention to what the person's saying and you

00:16:08.680 certainly don't talk about yes you know on those dates that definite rule don't don't discuss it

00:16:14.060 because that'll be a you know it's not good but um it's not attractive and it'll trigger you

00:16:18.120 um but if you can get if you can do that then try it out trial and error

00:16:21.720 okay i would say that's that's sound advice i haven't been like dating around for a very long

00:16:31.740 time so i don't know what the dating market looks like now but how do you feel about how people are

00:16:38.460 meeting each other nowadays i mean given the given covid too things have gotten a little weird in the

00:16:42.940 last couple years but even before that with like i mentioned tinder whatever other app people are

00:16:48.700 using where you kind of just see this snapshot and you're doing like swiping right and left.

00:16:55.280 Is that, is that okay? Is that healthy? Are there problems with that or your views on that?

00:17:02.440 I think my views are mixed. I think most people, even the user's views are mixed in some way.

00:17:07.520 There's, I mean, the number one pro of the apps is convenience. You know, when I was,

00:17:15.260 you know a teenager young adult it was before social media you actually had to go somewhere

00:17:20.720 yeah you know you actually had to be in a bar or be at this or be somewhere um where you

00:17:29.560 will meet someone and then you actually get to see them in person and this whole issue of chemistry

00:17:34.460 is a little clearer because you've actually met them in person rather than seen just pictures or

00:17:38.500 videos or whatever so there was an advantage to that um the convenience is you can do this from

00:17:43.380 your own home the inconvenience is that there's so many people on there who are not really looking

00:17:49.980 to meet who are really just there because they just want to you know get the attention or they

00:17:55.940 just want to pass the time or they just want to stick it to the person they're with by going on

00:18:00.220 there like people have very different or they're about to go on a trip for a month so just before

00:18:04.740 they go but really they're not available so you're waiting for a lot of people who seem to be

00:18:09.700 available but actually are not and that you don't know until you're doing all the swiping and then

00:18:14.460 people aren't responding and you're like it must be me and it's like a lot of the times it's nothing

00:18:18.460 to do with you they're actually not available or they're actually not there for that or they're

00:18:22.480 not really serious about meeting you know they just want to kind of see what's out there almost

00:18:26.500 like they're you know reading the newspaper they're not really serious about it so you don't

00:18:30.800 know and you have to yeah all of the all of those people to maybe find the people who are serious

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00:19:39.900 have you heard about ways to date that's more effective than tinder dating or something like

00:19:46.720 that given the fact that a lot of people on those apps are hell some of them are even in

00:19:50.840 relationships and they're just like curious so they're not actually looking for something long

00:19:55.240 term? Are there long-term dating strategies that you'd recommend? Yeah, look, the one thing I always

00:20:01.300 recommend is that what is the thing that you are passionate about? What is the thing that you,

00:20:07.140 you know, really feels like a part of you? It's something that you engage in. It's part of your

00:20:11.080 identity. You might be a runner. You might be, you know, into this band. You might be a sports fan.

00:20:17.480 You might be in a sports team. You might, whatever it is, you might enjoy this kind of concert or

00:20:22.380 this kind of art if you find a way to engage in that with other people then the people you are

00:20:31.020 likely to meet there at least have one thing in common with you you're both passionate we're both

00:20:34.920 interested and make something and i use running just because for runners it's actually a big you

00:20:39.580 know if you're a runner then you spend many hours a week running obviously and so that's a lot of

00:20:44.020 hours that if you met somebody in a running group that you have in common and so and that's a great

00:20:49.620 way to know someone so if you can like two birds with one stone if you can like dual purpose it

00:20:54.460 and do the thing that interests you in the first place and perhaps there meet the person who is

00:20:59.080 interested in the same thing that i think is a great way to to meet somebody in person then you

00:21:04.200 have things in common as well right at least one and it's a passion yeah okay how do you feel about

00:21:10.400 couples who date each other who have nothing in common um you mean the ones that show up in my

00:21:16.640 therapy office yeah probably yeah because that's what often happens couples are sometimes together

00:21:24.820 because of circumstance right they met in college or they were working together and and that

00:21:29.860 circumstance made them feel like there was a lot in common but remove the circumstance and there's

00:21:34.940 not it turns out and and you get couples who've really or couples who've met young and just grown

00:21:40.940 apart and you feel like well their lives are about all of these things and the other person's lives

00:21:45.300 about a whole lot of other things and there's so little overlap there's so little that they're

00:21:50.520 truly interested in with one another those are the couples that are most likely to drift emotionally

00:21:56.340 from one another and to start to feel lonely even though they are together because loneliness

00:22:01.920 happens a lot within relationships and it can be profound but it happens within relationships but

00:22:06.880 but that's what you would expect because that area of overlap that communication kind of

00:22:12.060 you know, kind of just like fizzles out because it's just not that much binding them.

00:22:18.940 I've spoken to some other people on the podcast. I can't remember who, and I've asked a similar

00:22:23.660 question, which is what happens if the person you're with is very different from you and there

00:22:27.500 isn't a lot in common. And some people said it makes it more interesting, but I think

00:22:32.280 your way, your thoughts might be more accurate, but is, yeah. What do you do? Okay. So what if

00:22:40.620 you're in a relationship with someone you guys don't have a lot of overlap is there a way to fix

00:22:44.700 that yes now look what a lot of time happens is that when people have kids that becomes the common

00:22:51.140 that becomes the common oh so have children no no no no no no no because just kidding you know

00:22:57.520 when the kids are older and when the kids leave they're back to like uh yeah and why am i with

00:23:02.660 you so it doesn't you know that no i mean that often happens emptiness is often or even not you

00:23:07.540 don't have to wait emptiness kids are teenagers they're not interested in you as much they want

00:23:10.480 to be with their friends and suddenly look at each other like oh why don't we have to have

00:23:14.100 conversation tonight uh you know that so and it's but you can be very different but you can still

00:23:20.080 have overlap you can still have very meaningful conversation you can be a couple who talk together

00:23:25.240 about all kinds of things even if you are not you know they're interested in x you're interested in

00:23:29.640 y but you're open to hearing about theirs and they're open to hearing about yours and they

00:23:33.040 support you in theirs and you support them in yours and there can be overlap there there can

00:23:36.900 be overlapped socially you might really have one kind of purpose or one kind of value or one kind

00:23:42.500 of belief that really binds you but there's got to be some connective tissue and so you might be

00:23:48.480 very different but then the task early on is we'll find the connective tissue it could be sex it could

00:23:53.380 be physical attraction truly I mean that's kept a lot of couples together because you know yeah

00:23:57.180 but wow we're just really we are still really into each other whatever it is that's that's the

00:24:02.280 task there find what that connective tissue is for you okay how do you feel about couples working

00:24:09.880 together what if that's the connective tissue that they work together yeah um for some couples that

00:24:17.860 works very very well and for some couples that um that masks a relationship in other words that

00:24:24.840 makes it seem like they're connected when in essence they're not um and so yeah they work

00:24:30.560 together well, but all their conversations are about work. They don't really talk about

00:24:34.860 themselves or the relationship, just about the relationship as work partners, just about what

00:24:39.920 do we do with this account and this, this, and this, this, but not how do we feel about one

00:24:43.900 another? What do I need from you that I'm not getting? What do you need from me that you're

00:24:47.020 not getting? Those conversations don't take place. It becomes very transactional. That's

00:24:51.400 also going to be a recipe for eventual disengagement because work is great, but then

00:24:58.020 they're going to have a vacation and realize now what and then those are the all the kids all they

00:25:02.180 talk about is the kids because it's the one connection they have and they avoid any other

00:25:05.860 conversation again it's not a recipe that's gonna last or bring happiness long term you really have

00:25:12.040 to and i kind of believe that two people can find that common ground but they have to mutually look

00:25:17.300 for it they have to be open to exploring with one another opening themselves up you know like really

00:25:23.500 trying to get to know one another like you've been together for a while but get to know one

00:25:27.500 another again do you know what she's thinking do you know what he's feeling you know like

00:25:30.700 if you put in that work you can usually find the common ground but it's got to be mutual

00:25:34.900 and and you know and intentional okay what would common ground look like if you don't have common

00:25:44.120 ground with somebody like how do you dive into them and try and figure out where the commonalities

00:25:49.200 are how do you even start that it's kind of exactly as you said it in fact you just dive in

00:25:55.240 and start to see where the commonalities are again couples have been together for a while don't ask

00:26:00.040 each other things because they think they know each other so well they don't have to ask they

00:26:03.880 don't ask well what are you thinking about what i'm seeing on the news right now oh i just read

00:26:07.800 this what do you think about that and that's not in a domain it could be something they read that's

00:26:11.880 nothing to do with one of them that they don't know like oh i just saw that this happened in the

00:26:16.680 world what do you think about that and it could be an area of the world i never even spoke about

00:26:20.200 before like but explore that like hey i've never done i don't know is this pottery i've never done

00:26:26.200 pottery um you want to give that a try like search for things that you would do oh i know we really

00:26:33.240 travel well together let's organize some weekend trips and explore places i'll organize one you

00:26:37.720 organize the other if you go about literally that search like go on the on the on the hints

00:26:43.640 you have of what works well between you but just be open-minded and truly kind of explore

00:26:48.520 uh what you think about certain things or what interests you um you know couples do this thing

00:26:54.440 where like they binge watch tv shows and it's and they feel like oh we're so connected we binge

00:26:59.520 watch television like if you didn't talk between the episodes you're not because it could have been

00:27:03.720 anyone sitting next to you like if you pause between episodes and hey what do you think about

00:27:09.000 that or wow what was good what did you like what do you think will happen even if there's a few

00:27:13.360 minutes of conversation about it you're making it a mutual experience otherwise it's like parallel

00:27:18.040 play with kids he is playing with one he is playing with another but they're not really

00:27:21.640 interacting it's less connected so you want to you can make it more connected again there's an

00:27:26.040 intentionality that happens with that that should happen with it okay and is this kind of getting

00:27:34.760 to know the other person is that something you have to do for your entire relationship

00:27:39.400 if it's a 50 year long relationship you just have to keep finding this common ground or does that

00:27:44.840 just happens sometimes okay you made that sound very exhausting which it can be and i don't think

00:27:51.000 it needs to be continual you know but i think that because you you know like you don't you

00:27:55.480 don't have to work on things all the time but you there are periods where you'll feel things

00:27:59.400 are working well and there are periods where you'll feel you're drifting or things feel a

00:28:03.160 little bit different and that's when you have to work on things so as long as one of you as long

00:28:07.640 as you check in with each other every once in a while hey how are we doing i noticed we've not

00:28:12.760 not been talking as much or we seem to be a little bit on edge maybe we should talk about how we're

00:28:16.700 doing and maybe we need to you know like make some effort to do whatever it is that we need from one

00:28:22.880 another like doing those check-ins you know we go to physical check-ups usually past a certain age

00:28:28.080 where you go once a year to get your blood work done at least once or twice a year get your

00:28:32.860 emotional temperature taken you know with your partner to me i would think over a long course

00:28:37.540 of relationship and then if there's a little bit of something then address it

00:28:40.500 that makes sense um how do you know when you're near the beginning of a relationship how do you

00:28:47.580 know if you're falling in love with the person or what you think that person is especially if

00:28:54.620 the relationship is new what an amazing question and here's the depressing answer yet don't um

00:29:02.540 because at the beginning of a relationship you have a few dots of information which you connect

00:29:08.820 to make a you know a a mona lisa but that mona lisa is made from like 10 or 15 day you know

00:29:17.260 dots on the canvas not from the you know exquisite brush strokes you're filling in a lot of blanks

00:29:23.460 with assumptions yeah a ton so you don't know um it's always a process of getting to know and

00:29:30.800 reminding yourself as unromantic as this sounds like don't know everything yet here are a couple

00:29:35.780 of milestones i always point out number one if you don't know how the person fights when they're

00:29:41.840 really angry then you don't know them yet because i know a lot of people who are great but when they

00:29:49.400 lose it they go from zero to raving really quickly and if you haven't seen that side of them and you

00:29:56.180 might not for months because things are wonderful and honeymoon period and all of that but then

00:30:01.780 suddenly you see if they're not able to you know they can get angry but if they're not able to

00:30:06.080 communicate or to resolve conflict or if they just act out or if they really lose it that might be a

00:30:12.220 big issue in a relationship which you might not find out about for a while and the other thing

00:30:18.820 is you don't know how they are under stress some people for example i say have you traveled together

00:30:25.320 because some people travel great and some people the minute you give them a plane ticket in their

00:30:30.580 hand become a ball of annoying stress they're irritable and they're sharp and they're sweating

00:30:37.540 and they're panicked and they're anxious and it's like this is not a fun way to start

00:30:41.200 holiday um but you don't know that you know until all that they've been a really stressful time at

00:30:46.860 work how do they manage stress can they lean on you are you able to help them do they shut you

00:30:51.880 out do they so there's certain things that you don't find out early on but they're actually

00:30:57.080 crucial for the potential longevity uh or you know viability of a relationship so so you you

00:31:03.100 have to remember that you're still you know when we're dating we're putting forth our best selves

00:31:08.600 right this is the this is the brochure you version you get this is the pamphlet this is that

00:31:12.680 everything's you know like people should be on that best behavior doesn't tell you what their

00:31:17.220 normative behavior is it just tells you what their efforts are that's really smart that seems

00:31:23.740 somewhat obvious but i suppose if you're in the honeymoon period and you've just started dating

00:31:27.800 someone you're like yeah we never argue it's great we're never stressed out we're just happy

00:31:32.660 together everything's perfect it's like no no matter who you're going out with you just haven't

00:31:38.260 seen them angry yet you haven't seen them stressed yet right and and maybe they're an angel when they

00:31:43.320 are maybe you're not an angel but maybe they're very manageable and you're like oh wow this is

00:31:46.540 you stressed that's great or this is you able to communicate when we have a problem like if you

00:31:50.700 one of the things i always to say to people bring this up early in a relationship even if it's very

00:31:55.780 mild bring up an issue because it's symbolic of how somebody deals like if you on you know date

00:32:02.180 number five say uh bring up and say hey i just wanted to bring something up i'm really enjoying

00:32:07.760 you know seeing you but this is the fifth time you've been a little bit late and i just want to

00:32:12.420 say i i'm someone who doesn't do well with that so i just wanted to bring that to your attention

00:32:16.200 just to let you know that if you could make efforts i'd really appreciate it i understand

00:32:19.580 that can happen but you say it nicely you say it and if they go like and they might say like oh you

00:32:25.420 know i'm sorry i'm sorry i know i'm like that i will definitely try and make an effort that's nice

00:32:30.060 if they go like well what do you mean i'm late so i was so late why are you making a big deal out of

00:32:34.680 it and you said it nicely and that's their response that's also informative right but

00:32:38.660 you can get that information pretty early on by being very nice in terms of how you bring up a

00:32:43.480 small things just to see how they discuss it. That's sneaky. I like that. I can remember

00:32:51.440 when I was, I used to have health problems, which I do not anymore. Thank goodness.

00:32:56.500 But when I was doing my like Tinder dating, which was just kind of going out for coffee,

00:33:00.900 trying to meet people. I can remember I was late one time and somebody snapped at me and it was

00:33:05.960 like date two and I was late and they snapped at me and I was like, Oh, and then I snapped back at

00:33:11.480 them it just didn't go well anyway good memories day two is inappropriate for them to snap at you

00:33:17.760 they should actually be nice so that revealed something you know that had you not been late

00:33:22.320 you wouldn't have found out so so that's what i'm saying like but that's the thing bug them a bit

00:33:27.560 see what happens right so when everything goes perfectly it's not that everything's perfect

00:33:31.940 is that you don't quite know yet it might be it certainly might yeah you don't know yet

00:33:38.760 okay let's see I have a whole bunch of questions I want to ask you I just need to pick which ones

00:33:48.840 okay this is a little bit different so I told you I've been kind of delving into trauma and

00:33:54.300 how to recover from trauma so how do you recover from shared traumatic experiences

00:34:00.460 so that you're not setting each other off by reminding them of the trauma you guys both have

00:34:05.940 gone through what a great question and that's a bit of a tricky one i think over this past

00:34:12.280 year and a half a lot of people have been through yeah yeah experiences quarantining together

00:34:18.200 well yeah but you know like i mean i i live in new york city the you know it was it was the

00:34:24.400 epicenter at the beginning a lot of people here have this look and they tell you oh the sirens

00:34:28.980 because that first month people were just locked in their apartments afraid to go outside and all

00:34:34.340 you had were sirens day and night every several times an hour you just couldn't get away from it

00:34:39.220 and so the sirens were so traumatic it felt like the end of the world and um yeah but how you get

00:34:46.200 over trauma number one is that two things i want to say about that that are a little counterintuitive

00:34:50.940 for people most people think that the psychologists would say oh if it's trauma you have to talk about

00:34:56.940 it you got to bring it out you got to like you know get it out of your system you have to debrief

00:35:01.720 about it. That's not necessarily true. There are people when they've been through traumatic events

00:35:06.700 that feel the need to talk about them. And if you feel the need to talk about the traumatic events,

00:35:12.340 you should. But there are people who go through the same traumatic event and actually feel the

00:35:16.160 need to not talk about it. They feel that they'd rather compartmentalize it and just kind of move

00:35:22.260 on. I don't want to talk about it. I just want to move on. And for those people who don't want

00:35:26.760 talk about it who are able to compartmentalize and move on being forced to talk about it um

00:35:32.920 can actually be more scarring um than not after 9 11 in new york city there was one study that

00:35:39.640 showed that the more people spoke about the events the harder it was for them to move past them that

00:35:46.600 the people who experienced similar events but didn't talk about them because they didn't want

00:35:50.520 to um did better long term so it's an individual thing you need to know whether you feel the need

00:35:57.640 to talk and some people definitely feel the need to i don't want to deal with it i just want to move

00:36:00.840 on and and if you're the move on type then it's not great for you to talk and if you're the talker

00:36:05.960 type it's important and so that is also important when it's two people because you hope to be

00:36:12.280 matched there i mean often it's one person like i really want to talk and the other person i really

00:36:16.600 don't because i don't want to get re-traumatized every time you bring up a memory you're kind of

00:36:21.920 yeah you're laying down that memory again and so if you're bringing it up in a traumatic way you're

00:36:26.280 actually making that trauma worse and so for the person who doesn't want to do it it's not wise for

00:36:31.100 them to then maybe the other person should find you know someone to talk to who does want to talk

00:36:35.560 about things but even to have that conversation what's your preference is something you want to

00:36:40.020 talk about etc the other thing about trauma just the most you know known thing about trauma is that

00:36:45.420 the best way through it is to um find meaning and you can't only do that in a certain distance of

00:36:53.140 time and and and emotional distance but to find meaning to have a way to extract something from

00:36:59.620 that event that it taught you that it showed you that you could make changes based on and then it

00:37:06.100 has purpose or utility even if it was very very difficult and that often takes that edge um off

00:37:13.320 uh you know what the trauma does uh the scars that it leaves

00:37:18.580 yeah purposeless suffering is much much worse than suffering and learning something or being

00:37:27.720 able to help somebody because you experience something or yeah something like that does

00:37:33.180 so you talked about how some people are better or they prefer to compartmentalize versus talk about

00:37:39.600 it does that have a lot to do with how soon after the traumatic experience occurred they're trying

00:37:45.160 to delve into it like if they wait a certain amount of time then do some people go from

00:37:50.740 compartmentalizing it's hard to say to talking about it yeah i mean there can be an initial

00:37:57.820 shock period literally um these uh you know the the in when there's certain you know um

00:38:04.800 mass events and then you have most people who experience trauma or shock are actually taken

00:38:11.660 to hospitals for evaluation the the non-physically damaged are also taken to hospitals and they're

00:38:16.460 considered among the injured because they are injured now that initial shock um subsides you

00:38:23.740 know after however many hours or days and then what are you left with and so it may be in those

00:38:28.880 in that first few moments where you're still coming to terms with what what happened here

00:38:32.960 it's hard to tell are you somebody who needs to talk or or not but in the days after again you

00:38:38.580 will feel that need once that shock has passed a bit to to want to talk about it or you'll feel

00:38:44.240 the need to I don't and you'll know that very clearly and it's very it's similar with grief

00:38:48.700 when people lose a relative sometimes the assumption is because we have all these rituals

00:38:52.440 about the community coming together to talk about things but sometimes some people like

00:38:56.260 can we just not talk about them though because I I'm up for the distraction but I just don't

00:39:02.380 want to talk that's too painful for me to talk about that so even in grief sometimes people can

00:39:06.860 can have that choice but you know it because you you feel like oh i don't want to do this

00:39:11.460 or i really want to do this i wish somebody could listen you know that right so yeah it's

00:39:18.480 complicated i've had a number of experiences i wouldn't recommend i mean everybody has um and

00:39:24.820 i've noticed depending on the experience i'll either go into i don't want to talk about it

00:39:29.900 Like, don't try and get into my head and dissect whatever I'm thinking.

00:39:34.180 Don't want to talk about it to, oh, I need to write about it.

00:39:37.520 Or, you know, talking to a therapist would help, um, depending on how tough the situation

00:39:43.420 is.

00:39:43.740 Maybe sometimes it takes a certain period of time and then I'm like, okay, now I can talk

00:39:47.780 about it, but it's been a year.

00:39:50.300 So I, I, and you said something very important there and that's the, the, the writing part

00:39:55.140 because writing is super super super useful because it helps you it's private so you don't

00:40:01.660 have to share it with someone but it helps you organize your thoughts because when we have

00:40:07.180 those big feelings attached to whatever the traumatic event was then it's sometimes hard to

00:40:13.640 you know like when you're feeling that it's hard to organize your thoughts because you're feeling

00:40:17.420 something so strongly it kind of shuts down the minute we go back to our to our more primitive

00:40:22.120 in terms of evolution, our more primitive structures, it takes away from our executive

00:40:27.660 functioning from the newer ones. And so, you know, the more upset we are, the less thinking we can do

00:40:33.340 with clarity. Writing forces emotional distance, because to translate what the thought and feeling

00:40:39.740 is into words that you then organize and actually do the fine motor skill of writing them down or

00:40:44.680 typing them it is a laborious uh mental execution that actually creates emotional distance and then

00:40:52.720 lowers the emotional response enough for you to have more clarity in your thinking about it so

00:40:57.980 it's very useful as a way to especially when you're feeling a lot of things to to well you're

00:41:04.200 feeling things very strongly to organize your thoughts to get your own bearings before you then

00:41:09.480 you know like a lot of people say like i can't talk to somebody to know what i think first or

00:41:13.820 what I feel first well writing is a great way to get in touch with it okay I love that I found

00:41:19.820 writing really useful um when I was actually I still do this sometimes if I get really really

00:41:25.660 wound up in an argument or there's too many things going on in my brain and I'm in an argument with

00:41:31.840 somebody sometimes I find arguing over by writing is actually a good way to ease into that when I

00:41:40.480 was like going back to my first relationship in high school before texting was really a thing

00:41:45.360 i would and maybe this was weird but if i got really mad about something i'd write it down so

00:41:50.940 i'd be able to tell them that way but i didn't have the i was too stressed out or worried just

00:41:56.980 like i can't talk about this but like this is why i'm angry i found that really useful even

00:42:02.440 though it kind of felt like cheating i don't think it's cheating at all look for for someone like me

00:42:09.580 um the the ideal there is what makes the communication best right i mean that's the

00:42:15.680 goal like what allows you to communicate best and for you if you were to talk about it and you would

00:42:21.100 get upset and then it would be harder to articulate what's going on with you versus writing it down

00:42:26.200 again with that emotional distance it forces and the ability to articulate things because you can

00:42:30.320 go and you can edit and you can truly and some people actually the you know our verbal expression

00:42:34.720 and our written expression is not aligned with a lot of people some people are much stronger in

00:42:39.300 one and the other they can speak amazingly write poorly or vice versa so you writing was you

00:42:45.860 communicating as clearly as you could so to me that's the win right i mean that's the smart thing

00:42:51.000 to do and i sometimes recommend to couples who've been together for a long time if they're explosive

00:42:54.840 if they tend to kind of go from zero to war of the roses in like two sentences do it via text

00:43:00.840 do it via you know because the other person won't interrupt you they won't you know like speak over

00:43:07.240 you they won't start yelling when you're in the middle of what you want to say you actually get

00:43:10.320 to finish what you say they get to finish what they say so if you're having trouble communicating

00:43:14.440 because it's too explosive do it in text do it in writing that to me that's that's not a cheat

00:43:19.280 and it's actually the more efficient way to do it sometimes okay that makes sense or if you're the

00:43:26.060 type of person like you said that's explosive or you're going to get mad and say something you

00:43:29.720 don't mean if you're writing it down then you can say okay scratch that that isn't exactly you write

00:43:35.320 And then you take it out.

00:43:36.480 Exactly right.

00:43:37.040 Yeah.

00:43:39.040 Okay.

00:43:39.600 That's really helpful information.

00:43:43.600 Let's see.

00:43:45.320 I think I kind of asked this earlier, but how do you know?

00:43:51.940 Okay.

00:43:52.460 I've seen couples that will stay together for a very long period of time.

00:43:57.780 And from the outside, it just doesn't look any good.

00:44:01.760 And you can see that from the outside, but because they're in the relationship,

00:44:05.140 they can't see that so are there signs people should look for to know whether or not they should

00:44:10.200 just end the relationship like you you talked about people staying together or having kids so

00:44:16.600 they had something in common when they don't um are there signs you've seen in couples where you're

00:44:23.380 like stop torturing yourselves oh yeah um the the research on on couples is such that most couples

00:44:33.500 therapists can watch like a five minute snippet of a couple argue and predict a divorce with

00:44:41.260 accuracies of over 90 percent. Oh that's rough. As a therapist I tend to think it's great but okay

00:44:50.400 yes but it's rough for the couple who's arguing in that way. Why that is is because it is how

00:44:57.520 couples argue that gives you a window into the relationship satisfaction and longevity it's how

00:45:05.060 they process conflict and there's several factors that have been shown to you know bode well for

00:45:11.860 couples versus bode poorly for couples here's one factor that bodes well i'll give you one of each

00:45:16.540 bodes well um there's something called bids bids is you're sitting with your partner and your

00:45:22.220 partner you know reads something in the paper and goes oh wow this is really interesting

00:45:25.960 that's a bid to connect because you're then supposed to say oh what is it and then they

00:45:31.080 tell you and you go oh wow or this or that if they so if they say oh wow this is really interesting

00:45:35.540 and you're like can't you see i'm working not so good so the couples that offer bids and respond

00:45:42.380 to them have a great prognosis um it's a very positive sign that you are offering bids to

00:45:48.440 connect small minor moments right and i gave this example of a minor minor minor moment but if you

00:45:54.220 think of these moments as that was a bid to connect um and you respond to it that's very

00:46:00.260 good for couples um what's very bad for couples is when in an argument you quickly get to content

00:46:07.180 and you can see that and i've seen that in my office and i've seen that unfortunately at dinner

00:46:11.860 parties where you can see that one person annoys the other and there's contempt there either on

00:46:17.160 the face or in the or in the language like like almost disgust in how they're talking like how

00:46:23.480 could you even like with this like facial expression that's just makes you want to like

00:46:28.660 as an observer makes you want to that was very very harsh but couples are doing that to each

00:46:33.360 other in public or they're you know they get there very quickly that's such a bad sign because if you

00:46:39.140 so quickly lose the connection lose the love or respect you have for that person and go so quickly

00:46:44.980 to contempt which is truly the opposite of love and respect then that foundation is not solid in

00:46:50.660 any way shape or form um and so there's certain things like you know there's contempt or there's

00:46:56.560 you know there's a lot of jokes that you make at the other person's expense if it's mild if it's

00:47:02.820 truly funny if it's not a big deal for the other person but you sometimes hear it and you can see

00:47:07.220 the other person flash hurt in their eyes and this was at a dinner party and you're like did

00:47:12.040 you know you're just wounded emotionally you just hurt their feelings in public and embarrass them

00:47:16.820 like why possibly would you do that it happens all the time so those kinds of things are not

00:47:22.940 good signs and putting out bids and responding to them are good signs okay what do couples who

00:47:30.740 are at the contempt stage do is there a way to reverse that yes but in one condition only if

00:47:38.200 both of you are of a mind to do that because it will require both of you to change a habit that

00:47:44.620 depends on both of you and that's how you're arguing you need to learn to argue more productively

00:47:50.320 you need to learn to argue with more empathy and compassion you need to slow it down to understand

00:47:57.060 the other person before you get angry with them like they said something that's annoying why did

00:48:01.160 they say it do they really think that tell me more about where that came from like you need to be able

00:48:05.520 to slow it down and get to understand things it is a big emotional effort in that moment what your

00:48:12.840 insides are telling you is lash out lash out you know and so you have to control that you have to

00:48:18.140 actually do the you know the thing of like managing and regulating your feelings and doing the

00:48:23.560 difficult thing and doing it because you hope that they will afford you the same courtesy and you can

00:48:27.780 flip a dynamic from a very negative one into a positive one but it takes a lot of work this is

00:48:33.180 where work would be a lot of work and there are couples and there are many who determine that we

00:48:38.960 really want this to work we got into this bad habit let's really work on changing it and when

00:48:43.320 they really work together that's what couples therapists do all the time they can but if one

00:48:48.160 of them is in and the other one is like i don't think i want to do it it's not going to work and

00:48:51.600 it certainly if both are not of mine to do it or they just don't have any rope left because they

00:48:55.260 just i can't i can't deal with this anymore then it's not going to work okay how do you identify

00:49:02.740 a good couples therapist are there places to go or yeah good question yes um there are first of all

00:49:11.780 it's do not assume that any therapist has been trained as a couples therapist it's fair when

00:49:17.380 you go into a couples therapist to say may i ask um were you trained in couples therapy and if they

00:49:23.060 say oh you know i took a class and i've just done it over the years you know if it's a referral from

00:49:27.940 people who know them and said yeah they were great maybe but most people will be able to say i did a

00:49:32.740 master's program in couples and family therapy. I did four years of training plus a postdoc

00:49:38.120 in couples and family therapy, and then I taught it for many years. In other words,

00:49:42.900 if you find people who've actually got that credential, who've actually learned it in

00:49:47.680 clear programs, who teach it, who are known for it, they're going to be much more skilled at

00:49:53.160 doing it. It's a very different modality than individual therapy. You have to be much more

00:49:57.300 active as a couples therapist. If you take your eye off the ball, again, think of an explosive

00:50:01.320 couples if you get lost in your own thought for a minute suddenly world war three is going on in

00:50:05.740 your office and you're like oops how did that happen um so you've got to be really on it you

00:50:09.880 have to be able to really multitask and think of what's going on here here and in your head about

00:50:15.160 what needs to happen it's so you know you want somebody who's either been referred because

00:50:20.380 they've done a very good job with somebody you know or you very fair to ask and by the way if

00:50:25.160 you're asking any physician or any therapist about their specific skill set oh you do this

00:50:31.380 where did you learn it and they get defensive no yeah not a good sign it's a very very fair

00:50:38.760 question there's zero reason to get defensive i get asked that still and you know i'm at a certain

00:50:43.300 level where people just i have a waiting list of people waiting to see me i still get asked

00:50:46.660 did you learn this i think very fair question i will tell them if i did and if i didn't i'll say

00:50:52.060 know so maybe i'm not the best person for you yeah you don't need a volatile therapist trying

00:50:58.360 to help your volatility right you want somebody well trained if you're volatile right you want

00:51:03.320 somebody who you know can manage the situation and and help you rather than just feel overwhelmed

00:51:09.180 by what's going on that makes sense okay how do you tell when someone you've been talking with

00:51:16.200 for a while whether or not they're interested in you that seems like a simple question but i'm

00:51:21.520 going to ask it anyway? Two things. Number one, don't look at anything they say, only at what

00:51:27.180 they do. So literally ignore words. You know, they say, oh no, I'm really interested and you're so

00:51:34.240 great. And what are the actions? Who's initiating the get togethers? How quickly are they contacting

00:51:42.240 you after you get together? How quickly do they respond to your texts? How much are they writing?

00:51:49.160 literally counting sentences counting lines how many lines did they write to how many lines that

00:51:54.820 you're writing um and so you can see this is somebody who seems like they're pursuing me or

00:52:02.040 that they're interested and they might not be pursuing but they're very responsive you know

00:52:06.060 it's text messages if it takes you more than 24 hours to respond you'd have better been in you

00:52:12.540 know in surgery either as a the surgeon or the person getting the surgery um like there's there's

00:52:18.480 it's there's no if you're interested there's very little circumstance maybe you're traveling but

00:52:23.380 there's very little circumstance in which you can't just say sorry busy but i'll text tomorrow

00:52:27.860 like something that's responsive um or let someone know you know i'm going into this very busy week i

00:52:33.040 won't be able to like but you know a lot of times people are like well i texted and i didn't hear

00:52:37.040 back i'm still waiting the date went so well but it's been two days and i'm like they're not trying

00:52:42.500 to let you know that they're interested maybe they still are but and maybe that and then when

00:52:46.540 they come back on day three do they go i'm so sorry i got so swamped with work or do they pretend

00:52:51.240 like no that's normal that we spent five hours together on sunday and it's wednesday before i

00:52:55.040 say something that shows a little bit less interest to me right and so and again if they address it

00:53:01.720 and say i'm sorry i was you know then they're at least aware that no there was an intention there

00:53:05.540 to communicate soon or more quickly so you know i think oftentimes people have that gut feeling

00:53:12.100 they kind of know they just want to hope that maybe it's more positive than it feels but when

00:53:18.400 somebody is interested you usually feel it because they make you feel they're interested and if you

00:53:23.820 don't feel it then it's maybe to know not know it's maybe that it that you know when it is

00:53:31.520 that totally makes sense okay what happens if you're texting somebody and

00:53:38.160 they're not responding very well so it's not going very well and you're like forget it

00:53:43.200 but then every time you don't respond for a while they'll ping you again

00:53:46.480 um it's such a common pattern right and it's so frustrating to people when that happens and

00:53:55.760 i think that the response to that should be um when they ping you again how long do they wait

00:54:01.040 to pig you you wait that long to respond and when you do respond say oh hey you know i was busy but

00:54:08.960 to be honest with you i'm happy to get together again if you want but i'm less you know i don't 0.94

00:54:13.880 really have a ton of time for just texting for another month before we do that so kind of you

00:54:19.440 know people get up the pot or you know like you can just be very clear about it like look i had a

00:54:24.820 fun time but um if you want to get together and explore another date that's fine if not

00:54:30.120 no problem but you know it's i i don't don't have time to do the back and forth too much i mean you

00:54:36.220 can say it nicely in some way yeah but you know yeah it's reasonable to expect that you know

00:54:42.020 because that's a classic pattern of somebody that's putting you on hold or keeping you or

00:54:46.680 not really serious so yeah you don't have to comply with it you can just say like hey you know

00:54:51.860 what um you seem busy or otherwise preoccupied so it was nice to know you but you know if you

00:54:57.640 want to check in with me when you have the bandwidth that's great and otherwise

00:55:00.660 we'll you know each other around whatever you say do it nicely obviously

00:55:05.020 because you want to leave the door open a little bit but you want to be clear

00:55:07.400 that okay that makes sense is that um just between in like a relationship

00:55:13.380 between a man and a woman is that more normal for a man to be less

00:55:18.640 responsive or is that a sign that you should maybe

00:55:21.820 not be as interested as you are

00:55:27.640 it men will tell me is this normal for a woman to be this unresponsive she must be getting so many

00:55:33.880 you know swipes okay i'm just one of them and and women always say well you know he's always

00:55:38.780 so i really think it kind of goes both ways depending on the person but here's what i say

00:55:43.700 i'm like when you're texting with someone right it might go from you know a day to texting or

00:55:50.380 texting to a date but that it might be the early steps of a relationship that ends up forming

00:55:54.960 or not if it if they are early steps then you have to understand that you're kind of negotiating

00:56:02.080 something in an unspoken way you're negotiating the dynamic and if the dynamic that you are

00:56:07.440 agreeing to is i reach out to you in a timely manner you don't respond in a timely manner

00:56:12.900 then i respond in a timely manner then you don't respond in a time you are setting up a dynamic in

00:56:18.580 which i will make more effort in this than you do you don't have to make as much effort as i do

00:56:23.640 is the unspoken dynamic that you're kind of agreeing to which you do not want to agree to

00:56:29.100 so that's why you have to pay attention to these early steps and i think texting is so useful

00:56:33.520 because you can literally whenever a patient said to me i said i want to show me your phone

00:56:37.060 because i want to see in that look they wrote two lines you wrote six then they wrote one word then

00:56:43.260 you wrote two lines you are constantly putting in more effort than them just visually and it

00:56:49.620 comes across so you are setting up this dynamic where you will try harder and you don't want to

00:56:55.220 set up a dynamic where you want something that's more fluid where they're whole chunks where they

00:56:59.200 write a lot and then you write a little then it trips over it's back and forth but you will often

00:57:03.300 see that it's very skewed it's like one person making more effort than the other don't do that

00:57:08.520 at the beginning you're setting something up that will be hard to change later on you are letting

00:57:12.660 them know that to be with you doesn't take that much effort and the answer should always be to

00:57:18.160 be with me takes a little bit of effort i put in that effort i expect to get it back and you can

00:57:23.600 control that with the texting then you wait also even if you're dying to respond to them you wait

00:57:27.940 you go sorry i was busy at work because there's no biggie for them to be busy at work it's not

00:57:32.200 biggie for you you shouldn't make it more urgent for you than it is for them but pay attention

00:57:36.400 early on ah so you have to so you have to be paying attention you have to kind of play into that

00:57:42.880 game to set up boundaries near the beginning. Yes. Boundaries, dynamics.

00:57:50.320 Look, true, but here's the reality and it's a harsh reality. It's like cement. Relationship

00:57:56.360 dynamics are like cement. They dry very quickly and then they harden and it's hard to change them.

00:58:02.380 You can change them before they're dry at the beginning, but they dry quickly. So pay attention

00:58:06.620 to those small things, you are actually setting up a tacit, you know, unspoken agreement to

00:58:13.520 something that you think, oh, I'll change that later. The cement will be drier. It'll be way

00:58:17.740 harder to do that later. Change it. Okay. That makes sense. Thank you very much for coming on.

00:58:25.260 If anybody wants to follow you or learn more or listen to your podcast, where should they go?

00:58:30.220 what should they type in so they can put in guy winch.com that's g-u-y-w-i-n-c-h.com that's my

00:58:37.160 website they'll find links to my ted talks the podcast podcast is called dear therapists they

00:58:41.680 can get it wherever they get their podcasts and on instagram and twitter i'm at guy winch and i'm

00:58:47.820 guy winch author on facebook perfect thank you very much for coming on thank you so much for having me

00:59:00.220 We'll be right back.

The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - September 07, 2021

111. How To Get Over Your Ex ｜ Guy Winch

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