00:02:56.560And so he would refer me still suicidal patients who had to be discharged from the inpatient
00:03:01.900unit, but they weren't acutely suicidal and the residents didn't want to see them.
00:03:06.860So he'd go up to a consultation, call me on the phone, put them on the phone and they
00:03:11.880would be discharged and I would see them.
00:03:14.700And one of the most fortunate things that happened to me was that I was signed up to do a fellowship, which fell through a week before I finished training.
00:03:25.280And I figured, oh, well, I'll just go out there.
00:03:28.160I have this guy referring me to these suicidal patients.
00:03:31.540But this is what I discovered, Michaela.
00:03:33.420I discovered that when I was with people and they were talking to me and I looked into
00:03:41.140their eyes, they were screaming out at me in their eyes, you're checking boxes and I'm
00:03:57.600And I was fortunate because if I had gone into a fellowship or worked for an institution,
00:04:02.200i'd be so busy checking boxes that people would be saying well you left protocol why'd you ask
00:04:09.740that question uh why'd you follow up with that but what happened is it was so penetrating when
00:04:16.140i look into their eyes that i just learned to look for where it would take me and i actually
00:04:25.440wrote an article after Anthony Bourdain died by suicide and Kate Spade, and it had 500,000 views
00:04:33.200in 10 days, maybe because the title was Why People Kill Themselves, It's Not Depression.
00:04:39.680So there's a little hook there. And I said, there's hundreds of millions of people, maybe
00:04:45.680billions who are depressed who don't kill themselves. It may contribute to it. People
00:04:51.260have lost marriages. Most people don't kill themselves. But what I observed by listening
00:04:57.140into people's eyes is what most of them had at the end was despair. And if you break the word
00:05:04.060despair into D-E-S-P-A-I-R, they feel unpaired, hopeless, without a future, helpless, powerless,0.94
00:05:15.920useless worthless meaningless purposeless and when they all line up pointless and so they pair1.00
00:05:23.480with death to take the pain away because death feels their pain and if they can feel that you0.86
00:05:32.120feel their pain without trying to treat them or throw stuff at them because they scare you
00:05:38.860they will often detach from death as the relief to something that I call surgical empathy.
00:05:48.560Wow. Okay. That, this is a lot. Surgical empathy. So did that, did that mean, sorry,
00:06:01.040that was a lot to take in. Did that mean that you ended up with patients that became attached to you?
00:06:05.520um well i think they became attached to the the empathy and and of course since i was the
00:06:12.800therapist they were attached but now i'm retired now i'm still licensed and so i'm going around
00:06:19.880the world teaching parents and anyone who will listen to me in the time i have left in my life
00:06:26.320you know how to connect with the people you're worried about and that you love let me share an
00:06:33.440anecdote, which kind of turned things around. So there I was, a freshly minted psychiatrist
00:06:41.400mentored by this suicide expert. And there was one patient that I will call Nancy, that's not
00:06:47.420her name. And she had made two or three suicide attempts before I started seeing her. And I was0.98
00:06:53.260seeing her for about six months, and I didn't think I was helping her at all. I mean, really,
00:06:57.520I mean, she'd come in. She wasn't catatonic. And she would always look, you know, 30 degrees to the left or right of me.
00:07:04.620She wouldn't make eye contact. And I used to moonlight at a state psychiatric hospital once a month where I'd cover for the other psychiatrist.
00:07:11.980And sometimes you don't sleep for 24 hours or more.
00:07:15.440So I remember I had just come back from moonlighting and there was Monday and there I was with Nancy.
00:07:22.600and so I'm sleep deprived and she's there not looking at me and as I'm looking out of my room
00:07:29.840all the color turned to black and white so I'm looking out of the room and it's black and white
00:07:35.340and I thought I'm having a stroke or a seizure so I did a neurologic exam on myself I'm a
00:07:41.260psychiatrist not a psychologist so you know I'm looking at my fingers tapping my tapping my elbows
00:07:46.200tapping you know and like this to see if I'm all there and I realized I'm all here I'm not having
00:07:51.560a stroke or a seizure and then i had this crazy idea that i was looking at the world through her
00:07:58.480eyes feeling her feelings and i just got the chills and it got colder and colder oh oh it gets it gets
00:08:06.740it gets more michaela so because i was sleep deprived i blurted out something that normally0.87
00:08:13.540i wouldn't i said nancy i didn't know it was so bad and i can't help you kill yourself0.61
00:08:20.440ah but if you do i will still think well of you0.59
00:08:27.620i will miss you and maybe i'll understand why you had to to get out of the pain
00:08:36.980and that was the first time she looked at me michaela and she when she looked at me she
00:08:43.440grabbed onto my eyes like i'm grabbing onto yours and i thought she was going to tell me
00:08:50.260thank you for understanding i'm overdue so i was a little nervous because this was the first time0.84
00:08:55.320she made eye contact and i said what what are you thinking nancy and then she leaned into me
00:09:01.920and she said if you can really understand why i might have to kill myself to get out of the pain
00:09:07.380maybe i won't need to wow and then she smiled and then i held on to her eyes
00:09:15.420and I said here's what we're going to do I'm not going to give you any treatments or that you've
00:09:22.420been through before unless you tell me maybe we should try another treatment because this has
00:09:27.080been going on for five years would that be okay and I'm holding on to her eyes and she had a look
00:09:36.260that said keep talking she said yeah and then I leaned in and I said what I'm going to do
00:09:42.320is I'm going to find you wherever you are.
00:22:30.280So these are startups that are basically getting to the end of their friends and family money, so they have to go to investors.
00:22:41.240And what I've told them is I said, do you ever speak to investors and they smile after a few minutes and you think it's a yes and it isn't?
00:22:51.960And they say, that happened just yesterday.
00:22:54.240i said here's the deal investors don't smile it's it's about money here's why they're smiling
00:23:03.400in two and a half minutes of a 20 minute presentation they've already decided they
00:23:10.140don't want to give you money and they're smiling because they don't want to be rude because they
00:23:14.580start all the time you put into your your powerpoint and so they're smiling like this
00:23:19.640but they've already decided it's a no that's why at the end of it you think they're going to say
00:23:23.940how do we get started and they say well let me think about it very interesting and you never
00:23:27.980hear them again and and these people in the zoom calls oh my god that's exactly what they're doing
00:23:33.240and i said so here's uh here's a little bit of a michelangelo mindset and how you can see into
00:23:41.080people find out where they're coming from so i'm glad this is on video i think you'll like this
00:23:47.180so when they smile and you know that the smile is not a yes it's a no but they don't want to be rude
00:23:53.580what you say to them and i give them a script is can we pause for a moment and they're worried
00:24:00.140because they're afraid that you caught them being rude inside and smiling so that you don't see it
00:24:05.100they go what yeah can we pause for a moment they go okay and then you look at them and you hold
00:24:12.140them in your eyes and you say when we started this conversation we were like this here was you with
00:24:20.380money here is me with a company that needs money and now we're like this here is you with money
00:24:27.120here is me with a company that's not going to get any of it so you were listening for something
00:24:33.720or looking for something and you didn't see it or hear it so in the time remaining
00:24:40.760you know forget the rest of the presentation what were you listening for or looking for
00:24:45.580and what's happened is you've totally disarmed them and they're going to go what you could say
00:24:52.660i think what you're looking for and listening for is an investment that's going to work
00:24:57.280especially to make up for the investments in your company that haven't worked
00:25:01.160so why don't you can you tell me about a big winner that someone in your company brought in
00:25:07.440or you brought in and so you get them to talk and the more they talk the more they're invested in
00:25:12.420you and here's where you turn around a conversation that was at a dead end into a ongoing relationship
00:25:20.160and you say and then you say oh we could cover those things but if you can't cover them you say
00:25:26.980you know i'm in a group of a bunch of startups and i could introduce you to three companies
00:25:32.340that fit what you're looking for and i can send you information on them and i'm not going to tell
00:25:39.480them, you know, so I'm not going to have them hitting on you. But might I send you some
00:25:44.280information from some of the other startups that might be a good fit for you? And then if you like
00:25:50.300it, I'll make an introduction. So what's happened is you took a relationship when they were smiling
00:25:55.200and you were never going to see them again. And now you're focused on their success. You're not
00:26:00.780focused on yourself. You're going to introduce three other startups to them. And so everybody's
00:26:06.740going to be grateful to you. And you can go back to all of them afterwards because you've just
00:26:11.320started a relationship built on generosity. Wow. That is brilliant. So then you end up with people
00:26:20.460who are in sales meetings that aren't going to go well, helping out the other companies in the
00:26:25.600startups on the presumption that these other companies are kind of doing a similar thing for
00:26:30.100them. And you're only offering people companies that you think suit them, what they're looking
00:26:34.580for so people must be very familiar with the companies in in the michael michelangelo mindset
00:26:40.100correct absolutely and in fact i'm going to i'm going to give you um when we write the book
00:26:46.820there is a statue of david in the michelangelo mindset that you need to create and i've already
00:26:54.420created it at least three times with you do you want to know what it is yes indeed what you want
00:27:03.280to create in a conversation with other people is for them to go think wow hmm yes and what wow is
00:27:14.520i can't believe what i just saw heard or read and with my suicidal patients they couldn't
00:27:20.440believe what they felt because they felt hope the hmm is this is too good to ignore
00:27:28.000and then the yes is this is how i see we can use it sold so for a year and a half i've done a bunch
00:27:38.080of things in this i didn't send you in my bio because it's a little dated but for a year and
00:27:41.860a half i played steve jobs coming back from the dead i had the turtleneck on i had the glasses on
00:27:48.020and the whole purpose of this presentation where i played him from 1996 to 2007 when he came back
00:27:56.420to Apple and introduce the iPhone, was to show a two-minute video, which was a dramatization
00:28:05.420of Steve Jobs discovering the mouse and the graphical user interface at Xerox PARC.
00:28:12.580And if you're watching this or listening, look up Xerox PARC National Geographic, Steve Jobs,
00:28:19.860and it takes you right to it. And in the dramatization, and we could even play it,
00:28:25.780but i'll imitate it here's my steve jobs things i'm not going to run get the turtleneck
00:28:29.640and so in in the uh in the video and you'll see and i'll just play him and you'll see the wow
00:28:36.360yes so he's like this smartest man in the room you know they're at xerox park he sees the xerox
00:28:44.180technician using the mouse and the icons and he leans in and you see on his face this wow i can't
00:28:54.160believe what i'm seeing and then smartest man in the room says to the technician can i try it
00:29:02.260and so then he sits down and when his index finger touches the mouse and the icons go on
00:29:09.340the screen he starts to sweat and steve wozniak is with him and actually on this video clip wozniak
00:29:18.140gives some commentary and and Steve Jobs looks back at Wozniak and Wozniak said when he looked
00:29:24.880at me for the hmm because Steve Wozniak was a thinker Steve Wozniak said I told I told him
00:29:31.540once they go there they're not going back they're not going to go back to typing
00:29:36.300and then uh and then the video goes on and Steve Jobs is playing with the mouse
00:29:43.580And then Walter Isaacson, who wrote one of the books, comments, they didn't know what to do with this at Xerox.
00:29:51.860And so what was happening is Steve Jobs was thinking, hmm, we got to do something with this.
00:29:57.420And then the clip ends with Walter Isaacson saying they didn't know what to do at Xerox.
00:30:04.680But Steve Jobs went back to Apple and here's the yes and created the Macintosh.
00:30:13.580so can you see that that whoever you're with and i think am i right that i've created a few
00:30:20.720while yeses with you in the in our conversation already oh definitely i think right away at the
00:30:25.800beginning so that's what you that's what you want to do and by the way why we call that the statue
00:30:33.000of david is isn't that what you felt when you finally met the person you were going to marry
00:30:38.460you know when you thought to yourself this is the one wasn't there a while yes
00:30:43.840You know, when you didn't know if you could buy that Tesla and it was more than you could
00:30:48.400afford, but when you went there, it was irresistible.
00:30:52.020And if you think about it, the way Steve Jobs and Elon Musk make presentations, it is overflowing
00:35:12.940so uh this is where this is before you were born i believe but i i say to people do you know where
00:35:21.100you were on september 6 1995 and people say what what the heck are you talking about and i said
00:35:27.780let me refresh your memory there was a trial going on in america maybe you've heard of it
00:35:32.960it was called the oj simpson trial and on september 6 1995 one of the characters in that
00:35:42.600trial was a fellow named Detective Mark Furman. He may have brought the case down because towards
00:35:49.580the end of the trial, he had said that he had never said the N-word, and then there was proof
00:35:53.320that he did say the N-word, and things really fell apart after that. On that day, Detective
00:35:59.540Mark Furman was questioned by a famous lawyer, F. Lee Bailey, and Detective Mark Furman took the
00:36:08.040Fifth Amendment. Why am I bringing this up? Because everybody in the world who watched that
00:36:14.060trial saw him taking the Fifth Amendment except me, because I was sequestered in the top floor
00:36:21.160of the criminal courts building, because I worked with the prosecution during the trial,
00:36:25.600and F. Lee Bailey had accused me of drugging him or coaching him in his testimony during the
00:36:32.100cross-examination earlier in the trial. So in the middle of the trial, Detective Mark Furman came
00:36:40.260across as like John Wayne, really strong. And I got subpoenaed to come in to see if I did anything
00:36:48.780with him. And I didn't do anything with him. But the subpoena never reached me because it went to
00:36:54.080a building that I was in that fell down in the 1994 earthquake. So the subpoena couldn't find
00:37:01.040me i have it framed on a wall somewhere so they just couldn't find me after that and so the trial
00:37:07.940went along and then it was towards the end of the trial and i was there by myself and i was
00:37:16.300wondering what's going to happen and one of the crazy things about me is i always put myself in
00:37:24.860situations that seem impossible. And I, I get to the brink of panic, but I never panic, I get smart.
00:37:34.860And one of these days, I'm going to have a massive stroke with a smile on my face,
00:37:39.140because I will figure out the secret to peace on earth, and I'll die. So what happens is I'm
00:37:45.380there waiting, I'm getting anxious, I'm getting nervous, I'm thinking I'm being set up. And,
00:37:49.600And then about 5 p.m., I suddenly figure out F. Lee Bailey and 80% of what I know about difficult people.0.98
00:38:01.020One thing that nearly all difficult people have in common, and this is not just the venters, this is the whiners, this is the stonewallers, this is the sullen people, it's everyone.0.92
00:38:12.600one of the things they all have in common is sometimes they will charm you or else why would1.00
00:38:23.800you have them in your life to begin with then they'll frustrate you then they'll anger you
00:38:29.340then they'll outrage you and many most people are uncomfortable with becoming enraged so when
00:38:37.840you're there and you're outraged and you're uncomfortable becoming enraged, you will do
00:38:42.660everything you can to keep a lid on it because you feel like you're going to go out of control.
00:38:48.200So difficult people push us into our feeling enraged. And I knew he was going to do that with
00:38:55.400me because I'd watched him in the court. So I knew that when he came up at 7 p.m. and he was there
00:39:02.280with a an associate of Johnny Cochran, and I was there with one of the other prosecutors,
00:39:08.600I knew he was going to charm me, frustrate me, anger me and outrage me and then hope that I
00:39:16.440become enraged. So you're going to like this, Michaela. So what he didn't know is that I had
00:39:23.840long cultivated that ability to look into people's eyes and hold their eyes. I can I can hold your
00:39:30.600eyes wherever i go and i could almost hypnotize you by looking in your eyes and so when he came
00:39:37.760in i had him so figured out uh that i started fumbling you know with pens and whatever
00:39:48.160and bill hodgman one of the prosecutors said to me mark mr bailey's here he's going to ask you
00:39:54.280some questions. And I said to Bill Hodgman, one of the prosecutors, OK, Bill. And then F.B. Bailey
00:40:02.340sits down across the table from me. And then when he sits down, I lock onto his eyes. And I can do
00:40:10.360whatever I want with his eyes. And I go like this to make sure that I'm locked onto them. And he
00:40:15.500doesn't know what I'm doing. And then he starts sharing. He says, you know, we don't exactly know
00:40:21.980your role here, Dr. Golston. And here's what I realized about innuendo. Innuendo is when people
00:40:29.160make statements instead of questions. And when people say something like, we don't really know
00:40:35.740what your role is, what we usually do when someone makes a statement is we go, uh-huh.
00:40:40.560And when we go, uh-huh, they put a hook on our neck and reel us in. And we're here to find out
00:40:46.860you know what your relationship with detective mark firman is and normally people go uh-huh
00:40:52.120but instead of going uh-huh i just kept looking in his eyes and i blinked oh and then he made
00:41:00.860six or seven more statements and i could tell that he was wanting me to go uh-huh but instead
00:41:06.420i just kept looking at him and i blinked and then after about five minutes the prosecutor says to me
00:41:14.140mark you haven't said anything meaning i didn't say uh-huh i didn't say anything
00:41:18.380and here was my moment of david speaking of stature of david and goliath i looked at bill
00:41:24.240hodgman and i said he hasn't asked me a question and then i looked back i looked at bill and then
00:41:32.540i looked back at f.e. bailey and f.e. bailey sort of flinched a little bit and i think he figured
00:41:37.320maybe there's more going on with this guy. So we started asking questions and I looked at him and
00:41:45.180here's my picture as I'm looking into his eyes. I'm not perfect, but I'm not, I'm not protecting
00:41:52.160someone who killed two people. What's your story? So that was my mindset. And clearly there wasn't
00:42:00.780even a reason for me to be pulled in because he had taken the fifth amendment. If he hadn't taken
00:42:04.920the fifth amendment you know then it made sense to interview me to see if he purged himself so
00:42:10.440i'm not even sure why they we even had this conversation i think it's because he may have
00:42:14.720been frustrated that the subpoena didn't reach me from earlier in the trial and so uh so he starts
00:42:21.800asking questions and in the trial there was a famous phrase that he used where where he pushed
00:42:29.860detective vermin and said so you're here to say that you've never said the n-word
00:42:34.920So, again, F. Lee Bailey would start out calm. He'd frustrate you. He'd anger you. He'd outrage you and hope you go off balance. So I knew he would do that with me. And he starts picking up speed.
00:42:48.300and i'm you know just giving him you know one word answers and there was a point in which he says so
00:42:55.620you're here to say that you would never you didn't medicate you didn't coach you didn't do anything
00:43:02.360to affect detective mark firman's testimony so he you follow me he built up this crescendo
00:43:09.360and so there's like five people in the room i'm looking into his eyes in my peripheral vision i
00:43:15.340can see everybody wants to hear what i have to say here come the sirens to take me away but uh
00:43:21.440and so he i'm looking into his eyes i count to seven and then i go and when i do that everybody
00:43:30.540looks leans in i can see my peripheral vision because they want to hear what you know what
00:43:34.980the shrink has to say and then i said really and then i did some innuendo with him i said
00:43:40.860mr bailey and he goes uh-huh i said mr bailey um
00:43:48.340my mind wandered the last six or seven minutes and it seemed very important what you were saying
00:43:55.680can you repeat everything and he went what i said yeah uh you know it's 7 p.m my car is locked in a
00:44:08.280lot and i don't know how i'm going to get it but it seemed important what you were saying
00:44:13.200so could you run it by me again because my mind wandered and see people who are bullies they don't
00:44:21.900care about having substance because if they can provoke you and you're off balance you know then
00:44:28.800they push you over the edge um sorry about that we don't exactly have a studio here you know
00:44:36.180don't worry about it yeah but uh and so so he looked at johnny cochran's associate carl douglas
00:44:45.000and said what did i say because see again bullies don't have to have substance if they can provoke
00:44:51.420you enough oh that's that's interesting so he was just doing a game what did i say yeah yeah and so
00:45:00.780and so he shared some of those things and the point is i had nothing to hide because i had
00:45:05.680nothing. No, I didn't do anything with Furman. And so after a few more minutes, he looks at
00:45:12.420the prosecutor and me and he says, I don't think we have to call Dr. Goulston on the stand. The
00:45:17.160point is, it was a moot point. He was just doing it for ego because Furman had taken the Fifth
00:45:21.780Amendment. I don't even know why I was still up there. And so he gets up to leave. And I said,
00:45:28.520Mr. Bailey, I have a question for you. And Bill Hodgman, the prosecutor, is about eight inches
00:45:35.140taller than me so we're standing up and he says mark mark it's the end of the trial it's okay
00:45:39.120i said uh you know earlier in the trial there was a statement that once you bring the n-word out
00:45:48.940you can't unring a bell meaning once black people hear the n-word spoken by a white person0.75
00:45:56.580you can't unring the uh uh the the anger that is triggering them and he says yes so
00:46:05.340and i said well yesterday in front of the world you said you were going to interview me
00:46:13.940about detective mark firman and so you associated me with the most despised cop in america today
00:46:24.320so you slurred me do you have any idea how we can unslur a slur
00:46:30.700and so bill hodgman says to me mark mark they misspelled your name don't worry about it
00:46:37.340and and f lee bailey looks at bill hodgman like who's your little friend and so f lee bailey
00:46:46.380leaves the room and i'm gathering my papers together and then he comes back into the room
00:46:50.660And he looks at me and he says, I will trade you a retraction in tomorrow's newspaper if you tell me what you figured out about me.