00:02:49.840Before we get started and I ask you a bunch of questions, can you give a brief background
00:02:54.360about who you are and what it is you do?
00:02:57.500Yeah, I mean, what I do right now is a lot of things, but the reason that we're talking
00:03:03.860is because of my kind of unique and extensive experience working around guns in the U.S.
00:03:12.180I got involved with the issue because my brother was shot in a shooting that happened on the
00:03:18.000observation deck of the Empire State Building, actually, in February of 1997. He was
00:03:22.320shot in the head, critically injured. Miraculously, he's alive. And so there's a lot to look at in
00:03:29.920terms of that cup half full scenario. But for him, obviously, and for all of us who love him
00:03:36.120and care about him, it changed the way we looked at what we do and our lives. And in my case,
00:03:42.220at the time, I was a partner at a big ad agency, thought I was living my dream, but wound up
00:03:47.920realizing that there were things that I could do applying my same passion for marketing and
00:03:53.060communicating to this issue of preventing others from going through what my family's gone through.
00:03:59.480So I quit that job in advertising, started an organization that was called PAX.
00:04:04.880It became the Center to Prevent Youth Violence.
00:04:06.880It became the biggest 501c3 nonprofit in the country on guns.
00:04:14.220And then over time, as that organization grew, built a relationship with Jim and Sarah Brady, who were personal heroes of mine.
00:04:24.120And at one point, they called along with their board and asked me if I would consider running their organization down in D.C., which it was one of those deals where I said, I'll talk to them, but it just doesn't make sense.
00:04:37.300I live in New York and they're in D.C.
00:04:39.140And and but lo and behold, after I talked to them, it was just an opportunity I couldn't turn down.
00:04:44.400So I ran the Brady campaign for six years and and left a couple of years ago for a for a variety of reasons.
00:04:53.220But a big, big part of it is I was a little bit burnt out focusing just on this issue, you know, the worst thing that ever happened to me and dealing with all the heartbreak, you know, on a daily basis that so many people go through.
00:05:08.920So now to answer your question, finally, I do a lot of consulting, including on including still on the on the gun issue.
00:05:18.240And I've started an organization called the Center for Gun Rights and Responsibility to work with the gun owning community around the common ground that I've always been convinced exists.
00:05:30.540And right now, people are listening to me more than they, you know, especially in the gun community than they did.
00:05:38.920when they were able to kind of caricaturize me as the president of the Brady campaign.
00:05:44.340So that's what I'm doing a little more than you bargained for, right, Michaela?
00:05:58.940And I know that's kind of a large question, but I mean, is it some people should own certain
00:06:03.820guns or just a background about what you believe is right for Americans?
00:06:08.080Yeah, there are kind of two. First of all, what I believe is right for Americans is almost entirely consistent with what most Americans think is right for most Americans. I'm not trying to prescribe anything. I'm just trying to find that common ground that I was talking about.
00:06:24.180Really, I think it's essence boils down to two things. Well, one fundamental thing, which is, you know, we all just want to be safe. And we get so caught up in this polarizing political debate and immediately, you know, pick a team, pick a tribe based on our political affiliation.
00:06:41.660And we don't really realize all the common ground that is there and common ground that'll accomplish what we all want, which is to make all of us safe at the end of the day.
00:06:54.480And there are two fundamental aspects to that, that I've always made my, quote, career on this issue.
00:07:04.260Folks, if I wanted a career where I need more money, I would have said in advertising.
00:07:08.640This is a career where the payoff is in creating some positive change.
00:07:15.100One is, let's just talk about not, as you said, how to take certain guns away from all people.
00:07:23.520Let's talk about how to keep all guns away from certain people and those being the people that we all agree shouldn't have guns, because when we look at it, strip away all the rhetoric and all the anger and and and, you know, that's defined this, quote, debate for so long.
00:07:42.100You really realize we all agree who probably shouldn't be able to just waltz into a store and buy a gun.
00:07:49.640Most gun stores agree. You know, people it's just it's kind of an obvious thing when you look at it that way.
00:07:54.500And then the other half of the equation is the responsibility that gun owners need to take totally compartmentalized from any political conversation whatsoever about gun control, about the very real risks associated with having a gun in the home.
00:08:12.540Just like they're real risks if you bring a chainsaw into your home or a hammer into your home and, you know, a piece of electronic equipment.
00:08:20.000You want to understand what those risks are, and then you want to do everything that you can to mitigate those risks.
00:08:25.820Unfortunately, what's happened is that because this issue is so immediately defined as an emotional political debate, gun owners too often tend to overlook that other very important part of the conversation.
00:08:41.880let's talk about the suicide that happens let's talk about the unintentional shootings that that
00:08:48.120happened but let's talk about them in a way that gun owners can do reasonable things without it all
00:08:55.680curtailing anything politically their right to own a gun or you know we got to go into this with a
00:09:00.840with a respect for the fact that people who own guns you know my grandfather and father took me
00:09:07.980the Yankee games when I was a kid. That's what we did. That's how we bonded. You know, at this very
00:09:12.000moment, there are fathers and grandfathers taking their kids hunting. And we have to respect that.
00:09:17.200This is, you know, this is not what this issue is about. What I want is when that father and
00:09:21.560grandfather take their kid hunting, that they're teaching that child about firearm safety, that
00:09:27.020when they get into the home and they have a teenager there, that they're careful to make
00:09:31.480sure that that teenager isn't going to have unsupervised access to that gun. If, you know,
00:09:37.400that's what they deem is the safest thing to do. So those are the two fundamental things.
00:09:42.220Politically, to me, it's almost entirely about just keeping guns out of the hands of the people
00:09:47.200we all agree shouldn't have them. And then in terms of education and awareness, it's about
00:09:52.620just starting a conversation about the very real risks about a gun in the home. And without trying
00:09:58.020to take guns away or any gun control or anything, let's educate people who bring guns into the home
00:10:03.580about those risks and what they can do to mitigate them. Okay. So that sounds pretty
00:10:08.720reasonable. Why, why is it that you were kind of caricatured and like vilified by certain
00:10:15.220communities? Yeah. Um, I think it's because of how the kind of knee jerk reaction when it comes
00:10:25.700to talking about this issue and, you know, it's, it's, what is the, what does the media want to
00:10:32.060show when it's, you know, to get eyeballs, it's people want to show a debate. And as a result,
00:10:39.720what's happening is, you know, I'm saying the same things that I've always said, but now people are
00:10:46.800listening because I can't be characterized as the president of the Brady campaign because, you know,
00:10:55.640now I'm I'm walking a different walk. So I think it's just a symptom of of unfortunately,
00:11:05.360the way this issue has been ingrained into the American culture as an all or nothing black and
00:11:12.140white metaphorically issue rather than, you know, there's no incentive for people who run
00:11:21.040organizations on both sides of the issues, by the way, both sides of the issue. They want to raise
00:11:25.140money. Politicians want to raise their profile. They want to raise money. And this issue is not
00:11:31.460unique in this regard. It's a terrible example of how, you know, it's a great example of how
00:11:37.540terrible this issue can be. But, you know, everybody wants to raise money. Everybody
00:11:42.220wants to raise their profiles. And as a result, there's really no incentive for like a leading
00:11:48.200organization on either side to really genuinely, respectfully put their arm around gun owners
00:11:53.980and say, like, listen, we all want the same thing. And that just makes it easy. And it kind of feeds
00:11:58.780on itself. And the result is like, like, literally caricatures of me, and, you know, a leading
00:12:04.380magazine in the in the pro pro gun community with a megaphone with fire spitting out of it and
00:12:12.300scared children in the windows watching me swing through the city, like literally caricatures,
00:12:16.540but you know, that that I can deal with. That's almost fun. But it's the what happens as a result
00:12:22.360of that, which is, um, it just contributes to this, um, this, this kind of idea that this is
00:12:29.400just a political debate and, and as a result, us not listening to each other. Yeah. Well, I'm,
00:12:36.900I'm trying to figure out how to bridge gaps in these contentious issues. So hopefully this helps.
00:12:42.900Um, so you talked about keeping all guns from the wrong people. So how would you suggest judging
00:12:50.040people, um, figuring out if they're the wrong type of person. Yeah. And let me start by saying
00:12:55.340there's obviously no perfect way to do that. And you get into some genuine conversations about
00:13:01.400social justice issues and, you know, other things that, that, that, that I care about deeply, but
00:13:07.660I think it's important to start by realizing that right now those people are defined. Um,
00:13:15.220You know, there is the Brady bill that became law defined.
00:13:21.400And then there was an amendment to it about domestic abusers.
00:13:23.880The Lautenberg Amendment defines those people convicted, convicted felons, people who've
00:13:31.460been adjudicated mentally ill, people who've been convicted of domestic abuse.
00:13:38.160I mean, and those background checks based on that happen every day.
00:13:43.060And they've saved countless lives. We're in the hundreds of thousands of, I think it might be more than that, of guns that have been, I haven't looked at the figures lately, of sales that have been prevented to those people in the prohibited categories.
00:14:02.700Imagine how many lives that saved. So there's really people might want you to think there's a there's a real struggle and debate over how you would categorize these people.
00:14:14.100But the fact is, they're already, you know, why is the speed limit 55 instead of 57?
00:14:18.780You know, at some point it becomes an arbitrary conversation.
00:14:21.040But the important thing is that there is a speed limit in place and it works and it saves lives and so forth.
00:14:26.080The problem is that all the gun sales that happen in our country every day that are outside of that background check system.
00:14:36.080So that background check system only happens at federally licensed firearm dealers.
00:14:40.660And, you know, there's one happening right now, I guarantee it, where somebody is getting a background check and and, you know,
00:14:47.880it'll be decided whether they're in any of those categories or not, and they'll be able to be able to get their gun.
00:14:53.680The problem is, you know, when you hear about and I think this is language that isn't helpful, things like the gun show loophole, you know, what the gun show.
00:15:02.880Have you heard of the gun show loophole? No.
00:15:04.780So the gun show loophole is what people call the fact people on the gun control side call the fact that people can walk into a quote gun show, which ambiguously defined, which is part part of the problem and be and buy a gun without a background check because it's because it's a gun show and it's not a federally licensed firearm dealer.
00:15:29.580sometimes from federally licensed firearm dealers and do it off the books.
00:15:34.960So that hurts the law abiding gun dealers because those people don't have to charge taxes,
00:15:41.260number one, but it really hurts all of our collective safety because if you're a straw
00:15:46.840purchaser who wants to buy guns and flood them into impacted communities across the country,
00:15:53.140you think you're going to go to a federally licensed firearm dealer to get those guns?
00:15:56.580Or do you think you're going to go someplace that does not require a background check?
00:16:00.900The reason why I think it's very important to not just talk about it in terms of the gun show loophole is that, you know, first of all, it's not true of all gun shows.
00:16:12.940But second of all, it is true of any place where guns are sold commercially.
00:16:18.220We're not talking about exchanging with friends or and, you know, there are conversations to be had in terms of where that line is as well.
00:16:24.400but you know if i wanted to give a gun to my daughter um i don't think she should have to
00:16:31.640go through a background check you know and so where where where is that where's that line but
00:16:35.740there are people who are clearly engaged in the business buying and selling guns at all sorts of
00:16:41.420venues online on websites that i don't want to promote right now um at these gun shows but if
00:16:48.220the problem is if you turn them down at a gun show they'll go across they'll go out into the parking
00:16:51.680lot. They'll go across the street into the parking lot of the gas station. So there needs to be a
00:16:55.940law that, and this is what I think could be the biggest improvement to the current system. There
00:17:02.180needs to be a law that requires the commercial sale of guns. How we define it, we can talk about
00:17:09.260requires the commercial sale of guns to have background checks. And that law would have a
00:17:15.860tremendous impact, and it would go a long way toward accomplishing, again, what we all want,
00:17:23.000which is just to be safer. So you're saying that at the moment, there's no law that asks for
00:17:29.860background checks for the commercial sale of guns? No. Well, commercial sales at federally
00:17:35.220licensed firearm dealers. To get your federal firearm license, you have to conduct a background
00:17:40.080check. Those background checks are conducted thousands of times every day. The problem is
00:17:46.800you're a convicted violent felon who's gotten out of jail. You go into a gun store. You try to buy
00:17:55.080a gun. You have to fill out a form. They do that background check. They say, you're a convicted
00:18:01.420violent felon. You're not allowed to have a gun. You walk out of that store. You walk down the
00:18:06.100street in most states and many, I'm not sure if it's most many states and you go to a quote gun
00:18:14.360show and that same person can buy a gun from a table or somebody walking around with the same
00:18:23.540gun that they wanted. Those people at the gun show, I'm saying the way to, cause some of those
00:18:28.760are, you know, those grandfathers, fathers, and their kids that I'm talking about and hunting
00:18:33.300and let's go and look, you know, I don't know if you went to like shows like that car shows,
00:18:38.140gun shows, whatever it is, you know, there's hobbyists, there are people who are genuinely
00:18:41.700into it. So I'm not saying that. And if I just sell one gun to one person, I'm not even necessarily
00:18:49.260saying that that should be the case, but I'm saying if those people go, if people go to a
00:18:54.620gun show and are selling, you know, some threshold, let's say, you know, more than five guns every
00:19:00.900six months, if they're taking credit cards for their transactions, if they're advertising,
00:19:06.400that is a commercial sale. And so those commercial sales have to be made the same as the commercial
00:19:12.280sale that would have gone down at the gun store had that fictional person passed the background
00:19:20.220check. Okay. So why isn't that in place already? Because people misconstrued a lot of things and
00:19:31.360a lot of the things we talked about, um, people misconstrued as being a political debate over gun
00:19:40.220rights. People, um, look at it and you'll sometimes hear the slippery slope argument.
00:19:46.020Well, first, you want to do this, and then you want to take my rights away. Then you have organizations, again, I believe on both sides of the issue, kind of feeding that emotional us versus them conversation, you know, there's so much language that's used, like, you know, the gun nuts, you know, it's like, don't do that.
00:20:09.220These are people who want what we want. And so as unfortunately, as a result, there's this it's it's become impossible to change the political status quo because it's so it's so entrenched.
00:20:21.760So it's just easy. You know, you can also say, like, why did nothing happen after, you know, insert horrific school shooting here?
00:20:31.220You know, and that's a that's a question you get a lot because people have gotten good.
00:20:37.840People who are incentivized to maintain this as a political debate have gotten good at maintaining this as a political debate.
00:20:44.780And as a result, the American public isn't getting the real story on this issue.
00:20:49.160And like, look, you've done your homework and I'm talking to you and you're like, wait, why isn't that why isn't that the case?
00:20:55.580Um, and it's, it's so, it is at the end of the day, so simple, but that's testimony to
00:21:02.120how just effing crazy this issue is in terms of people, you know, making it into this emotional
00:23:22.860It may legitimately take a long time for, with no local police department for the state
00:23:27.320troopers to get there. Is there a scenario where you can legitimately be safer to have a gun? This
00:23:33.660is blasphemy to a lot of the people from the community that I used to lead. Is there a scenario
00:23:39.680where a gun can make you safer? Yes. So let's have both of those. It's not cognitive dissonance.
00:23:46.240Let's have both of those conversations at the same time. Let's acknowledge there are real risks.
00:23:51.020Let's talk about what we can do to mitigate those risks. And then let's acknowledge that
00:23:56.420people who own guns aren't all bad. Most of them aren't bad. Most of them are good people who want
00:24:02.740what we all want and are D and are decent people. So let's, you know, let's acknowledge, let's
00:24:08.200acknowledge that. And let's talk about the fact that there are people who derive real benefit and
00:24:14.740value and fulfillment from owning guns. And let's, then that sets up the opportunity to have this
00:24:23.660conversation about, you know, things like background checks on all gun sales, things
00:24:28.740like educating gun owners about, and it's not all gun sales, by the way, but background
00:24:34.060checks, things about educating gun owners.
00:24:36.140But right now, like you said, what you see in the news is just the people, people don't
00:24:40.060dive as deep as you're diving and don't look for that common ground like you are.
00:24:44.000So there's like, all right, time to do a gun control story, cue up, you know, Dan
00:24:47.860gross and whoever the other person is that you're going to talk to. And it just winds up kind of
00:24:53.980fitting into this mold that at the end of the day needs to be broken in order to do something about
00:24:58.920this issue. Yes, I agree. Okay. So, so some other questions I had just out of curiosity,
00:25:07.260do states that have stricter gun control, do they have less gun violence in general?
00:25:14.000You know, so that's if you're talking to somebody who goes and leans on that argument, chances are you're not talking to somebody who either fully appreciates this issue or is worse using numbers to kind of undermine making some sort of genuine progress.
00:25:36.200you can't just look at state state by state laws because, you know, it's, it's a weakest link thing.
00:25:43.620If I'm in New York and New Jersey has incredible, that's, it's not true. New Jersey has good laws,
00:25:50.960but if New Jersey has incredibly weak laws, I can just go right over the border. There are
00:25:55.780places on the board and there are all sorts of examples of this. There's a whole thriving gun
00:25:59.940industry on the border of California and Nevada because California strict law. And so people
00:26:05.760who, again, those people who might want to traffic guns into impacted communities in
00:26:11.100California, they'll get in the car and drive a few hours and go.
00:26:14.740So you can't say that, you know, states with tougher gun laws have have no difference in
00:26:25.700the amount of gun violence and and present that as a argument against anything that I
00:26:33.560just said you know until this point um with what i would view as positive intentions
00:26:41.380that was a totally reasonable response thanks okay i've got a couple of other questions to
00:26:47.580throw your way hit me i feel like you've you've had practice though years and years of practice
00:26:52.140uh okay other countries are there other countries that have as many guns as the states but less crime
00:27:01.860um there's some debate about that i i will say but you know because part of it is and again it's a
00:27:13.760it's a little bit of a red herring in terms of the conversation which is why these what you're
00:27:18.580asking me are never things that i use to justify any of the positions that that we talked about
00:27:25.960before i can tell you there are states with some with significant percentage of gun ownership
00:27:31.740like Israel and, you know, where everybody up to, you know, has to spend two years in the army
00:27:38.800and Switzerland, I understand has, but they have way stricter laws in terms of background checks
00:27:50.280and all the kinds of things that I'm advocating, you know, and they're also more respectful of
00:27:55.240the risks, you know, as I understand in Israel, your service weapon, you know, is either has to
00:28:01.400be or encouraged to be kept someplace outside of outside of the home. So again, it's not it's not
00:28:09.880the thing to focus on when you're trying to make the case for any of the for the two things that
00:28:18.180I'm advocating, which are keep guns out of the wrong hands and educate gun owners about the
00:28:23.200risks. And yeah, there's a whole industry and it's part of that industry of people who you will talk
00:28:28.940to. Hopefully, not as part of this. Hopefully, you'll talk to somebody who's genuinely
00:28:34.040well-intentioned in terms of trying to make our country safer. But there are a lot of people out
00:28:41.640there and a good test are the people who make those points because in response to the things
00:28:48.240that I'm advocating, because let me just be clear, there is no connection between either of those two
00:28:54.000things. And anything that I said prior to this that I know will make us all safer.
00:29:02.480Okay. So the argument, perhaps the argument where they're like, look at this country,
00:29:08.520there are more guns there and it's safer. They're not taking into consideration the fact that these
00:29:12.680people are educated differently on guns. They're educated differently. They have different laws in
00:29:18.960terms of who's able to get guns. So ironically, some of those, some of those countries where
00:29:24.500that may rival the US, I'm not sure any place passes the US. But, but, you know, let's even
00:29:30.340say they do, but at least rival the US. You know, they, they have much lower rates of gun control,
00:29:39.000gun violence, because they actually have the kind of laws that that I'm talking about right now in
00:29:46.180our country, the problem is not primarily the number of guns at this point. The problem is
00:29:54.360the hands that the guns are getting into, whether it's unsupervised children, somebody with suicidal
00:30:00.220ideation, or a straw purchaser who's funneling guns into the impacted communities. Those are
00:30:09.100the problems. The problem is not, you know, so it's, again, that's used to kind of perpetuate
00:30:14.980this political debate and saying slippery slope, they just want to take all your guns away.
00:30:19.120And so it becomes very convenient to say, look at all these countries and the gun.
00:30:23.160By the way, all this, and I'm just not engaging on it, the US does have certainly at least among
00:30:30.640the highest rates of gun ownership and the correlation that you see between the number
00:30:35.500of guns and gun deaths is definitely on the side of more guns, results in more gun deaths,
00:30:43.160just like more cars will result in more car deaths or more hammers will result in in more
00:30:49.900hammer deaths. But I don't engage on that because the fact is the fact there are, you know, 300
00:30:57.360million plus guns out there in America. We are not taking those guns away. It is counterproductive
00:31:02.760to argue taking, you know, take taking guns away from anybody. It's counterproductive because it
00:31:08.960distracts from the real things that we can do that the owners of those 300 million guns
00:31:13.600would listen to, but aren't currently listening to because they think you're trying to take
00:31:17.580their guns away. Okay. Have there been laws implemented to restrict,
00:31:24.760I'm going to make sure I get my words right, but the guns that they're like automatic,
00:31:31.920you can shoot a whole bunch of bullets. Yeah. So they're not automatic.
00:31:33.980Those have been restricted, right? Yeah. Those have been restricted,
00:31:36.620the machine guns fully automatic guns have been restricted very heavily for a long time um the
00:31:43.220debate is over what are called assault weapons um and assault weapons like the ar-15 those are
00:31:51.980semi-automatic um and then also as part of that large capacity uh magazines where you can just
00:31:58.180so an automatic gun is where you hold down the trigger and it just fires a semi-automatic is
00:32:03.200where you have to pull the trigger each time individually. And they have large capacity
00:32:07.300magazines. And, you know, and that's that's what the the debate is is over. And believe it or not,
00:32:16.940that's also a debate that I think is not the right place to put our emphasis for for for a variety of
00:32:29.120important reasons. Let's just start with an important one, but I don't think the most
00:32:36.220important one, which is it's difficult to define what an assault weapon is and where you, you know,
00:32:43.780and where you draw the line and people, you know, do people use AR-15s for hunting? Absolutely.
00:32:50.620But what about target shooting? And is that, you know, so that become, and by the way, my
00:32:55.400brother was shot with a semi-automatic gun with a high capacity magazine. So I'm not just
00:33:00.440cavalierly saying this, you know, if that person didn't have that gun, there's a good chance my
00:33:05.780brother, um, you know, wouldn't have been shot or wouldn't have been as brief as, but I'm just
00:33:10.540thinking about this in terms of how to have the biggest impact. So there's a question in terms of
00:33:15.460how to define what is an assault weapon. And that winds up being, you know, uh, a, you know, that's
00:33:21.460Tucker freaking Carlson you know I went on his show and did an interview and all he wants to
00:33:26.740talk about is like can you define an assault weapon I'm like I'm not here to talk about that
00:33:30.120I'm here to talk about keeping the guns out of the hands we all of the people we all he had no
00:33:34.560interest in talking about that because that's not what his viewers want to hear and that's not how
00:33:40.480he gets get gets ratings so you know so I I like to first kind of put put that aside um then looking
00:33:48.320at it pragmatically, and again, I myself have had personal experience with the very
00:33:54.820unpragmatic side of this, the percentage of gun deaths and injuries, even the percentage
00:34:03.540of mass shootings, even the percentage of school shootings is relatively low in the
00:34:11.660case of the mass shootings and just tiny in terms of the overall toll of gun deaths in our country.
00:34:20.140So and the word, you know, assault weapon, what you'll usually hear is in the context of what the
00:34:26.520gun control community says and the gun rights community likes to parrot back assault weapons
00:34:33.940ban. We got to ban these assault weapons. Problem is it has the word ban in it. It makes it seem
00:34:40.800like we're coming for your guns. It gives people a ground to stand on. That's at least debatable
00:34:45.500in terms of the second amendment. It's my right to own this gun. Well, the second amendment can
00:34:50.000be where you're already in a place where you've lost kind of the emotional resonance of the
00:34:54.840argument instead. And this is why I go back to what I said in the beginning. Let's talk not about
00:35:02.080how to keep certain guns, assault weapons in this case, from everybody, from all people. Let's talk
00:35:10.080about how to keep every gun, assault weapons and otherwise from the people who are most likely
00:35:16.260and already defined as most likely to do harm and already defined as the most dangerous people.
00:35:22.540So like a background check, I don't care whether it's an AR-15 or a Saturday night special.
00:35:27.940I care that a gun trafficker or convicted felon can't walk into a, you know, a gun show or go
00:35:36.140online or meet somebody in a parking lot and, and buy it and buy it and buy that gun.
00:35:43.760Okay. You mentioned earlier, and this is something I wasn't familiar with, straw purchaser.
00:35:49.180Yeah. Um, so straw purchaser is somebody who, um, I'm not, I'm not saying you ever did this,
00:35:58.240But when one is 15 years old and and they need to get a beer in 7-Eleven, they they send somebody in the parking lot to go and buy the gun and then and then sell them the beer, give them the beer.
00:36:16.100No, no, no, no judgment, no accusation. But that person was a straw purchaser. What happens with with with guns is people who can pass background checks very often when they're not getting it at places that don't require background checks will go and buy, you know, dozens of guns, scores of guns, sometimes in another state and bring them back and sell them.
00:36:44.260in the communities that are most impacted by gun violence. It goes back to the question you say
00:36:49.860before, well, New York, you know, Chicago, Illinois, Chicago, Chicago is the toughest gun
00:36:54.480laws. And why do they have so much gun violence? A big part of that is because of these straw
00:36:59.960purchasers. They'll buy the guns, they're middle people, they'll buy the guns, they'll, I think the
00:37:05.560technical term would be like a straw man, straw woman, whatever they are, mostly men, purchaser
00:37:11.060who will buy that gun and then go and sell it and make a profit. And they're just like
00:37:16.940ridiculous examples of what happened. So there's one gun store right on the outskirts of Chicago
00:37:23.440called, but over the Chicago city limit. So this person can't exist. They're called Chuck's Gun
00:37:29.300Shop and Pistol Range, where that is known to sell a high percentage of the guns that turn up
00:37:37.540on the streets of Chicago in the terrible toll of gun violence that happens there, you know,
00:37:45.000seemingly on a daily basis. And a big part of that is because of the straw purchasers. And what0.88
00:37:52.380Chuck's is what I've always called a bad apple gun dealer because they're kind of spoiling it
00:37:58.920for everyone else. A tiny percentage of gun dealers engage in that behavior where they are
00:38:05.860knowingly selling guns, like, you know, sure, I'll sell you these 20 guns and not ask a question
00:38:11.360because you can pass this background check, knowingly selling guns that are winding up
00:38:16.100on the streets and causing all this gun violence. So another thing, in addition to cracking down
00:38:22.780on the straw purchasers is also cracking down on these unscrupulous gun dealers. I mean, it's like
00:38:32.140The 80-20 rule on steroids, the 80-20 rule would be 20% of gun owners sell 80% of crime guns.
00:38:40.660It's more like 5% of gun dealers sell 95% of crime guns.0.68
00:38:46.700So if we can just do something to go after these gun dealers and crack down on straw purchasers,
00:38:51.360that to me has always been one of the big opportunities to affect gun violence in these0.74
00:38:58.000communities where, and then, so you can start to see how somebody who says, well, there's nothing
00:39:03.280we can do in Chicago in terms of gun control. So let's not have this conversation because Chicago
00:39:08.060already has tough gun laws. I just explained to you how, yes, Chicago is very tough gun laws,
00:39:14.960but chucks is not covered. The straw purchasers are not, are not being dealt with. And that is1.00
00:39:20.820the reason why they have that gun violence. Okay. That's interesting. So do you have
00:39:26.380suggestions on how these straw purchases would be cracked down on? Yeah. So one, one aspect of it
00:39:35.620we've already talked about, which is to make sure that everyone has to, who's engaged in the
00:39:43.960business commercial business of selling guns has to do background checks. So that, so a straw
00:39:52.100purchaser can't walk into a gun show, can't go online and to one of these websites that I will
00:40:00.900not advertise and buy guns from strangers without a background check. And if we did that, that would
00:40:11.340have a very big impact. And I'll tell you the state fact that is relevant is the states with
00:40:19.000the weakest laws in that regard are the states that are the sources of most of the crime guns
00:40:26.120in New York and Chicago and Detroit and the places that are, you know, in a lot of smaller places.
00:40:33.180I don't mean to just give a love all three of those cities, you know, but it's happening
00:40:39.280everywhere. And it's happening because they call I-95 the firearm freeway because the guns come
00:40:44.640up from the states along the Eastern seaboard that have weak gun laws, the Southern states
00:40:50.880around things like straw purchasers and background checks, and they're brought up to, you know,
00:40:55.800Newark, I'll pick on someone else or, you know, other, other places on the Eastern seaboard that
00:41:01.620might have tougher gun laws. So that's one thing that we can do. And then the other thing that we0.66
00:41:05.820can do is all out war on these unscrupulous gun dealers who are doing this knowingly throw real
00:41:15.400resources at it because like the numbers are there again five percent of gun gun dealers sell 95 percent
00:41:22.880of crime guns you know you want to you you want to like really focus on something bring the weight
00:41:28.280of the government down on something you know uh there we have to leave no stone unturned in terms
00:41:33.460of going after those gun dealers that are literally knowingly supplying guns onto the
00:41:38.520streets. And by the way, giving a bad name to the 95% of gun dealers that sell zero crime guns.
00:41:46.980Okay. So you could potentially identify crime guns. And then if a whole bunch of them are
00:41:52.780coming from one place, crack down on that place. And that's how you do that.
00:41:56.840And they have that info. They have that info. Yeah. That info exists.
00:42:03.460Yeah, that's that's why that that to me has always been the, you know, possibly the biggest thing. So when I get not frustrated because there's a lot of good conversation about things like, you know, changing the, you know, the socioeconomics and the systemic racism and, you know, the oppression of, you know,
00:42:32.840people in these impacted communities. Um, and that's right. That's a conversation that has to
00:42:38.980be had. Um, and then there are great programs like the violence interrupters that go in and,
00:42:45.560you know, when it seems like there's a, I don't want to like marginalize myself by saying beef,
00:42:51.820but at one point that was the starting, or there's been one shooting to kind of come in and
00:42:57.900intervene in somebody who might be a former gang member and, and, and kind of bring people
00:43:03.300together to prevent it from escalating into more. These are very, very important things. I look at
00:43:10.340it as tent poles. Um, the third tent pole that does not get discussed as prevalently as the
00:43:18.460other two, but I think as it relates to gun violence, not the whole host of other things
00:43:23.000that are impacted by systemic racism and other forms of oppression, it doesn't get talked about
00:43:34.840and it would have on gun violence just as much of an impact, if not more than either of those two
00:43:42.920things, at least in the near term. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that summarizes your stance
00:43:50.740fairly well thank you very much for coming on uh is there anything else you want people to know or
00:43:56.720any websites you want people to go to or where people can find you before we end this part of
00:44:02.660the segment yeah um they can look me up at uh degross packs on uh on twitter um and uh yeah
00:44:11.420we're the organization that i'm starting with a guy in the gun rights community very prevalent
00:44:18.200activist in the gun rights community. It's called the Center for Gun Rights and Responsibility. So
00:44:23.280you can just search that up and see the latest in terms of what's going on there. And I want to
00:44:28.700thank you for, first of all, your intention of bringing people together and having a good
00:44:34.020conversation. And that is consistent with certainly the way that I look at this issue and
00:44:39.680for doing your research and being so prepared for this conversation and for letting me ramble
00:44:45.840and kind of get my points across. So thank you, Michaela.
00:44:49.340Well, thank you. That was very informative. Thanks again for coming on.
00:45:01.020Well, thanks for having me on. Good to talk to you.
00:45:04.200This should be a good conversation. Before we get started, could you give a brief background
00:45:07.920about who you are and what it is you do?
00:45:11.200My name is John Lott. I'm president of the Crime Prevention Research Center.
00:45:14.960I have a Ph.D. in economics. I have held teaching and research professorships at Stanford, University of Chicago, the Wharton Business School, Yale.
00:45:26.800I was chief economist for the United States Sentencing Commission.
00:45:30.860And then more recently, I was senior advisor for research and statistics for the U.S. Department of Justice.
00:45:37.300So I've had both academic positions and positions in the federal government to deal with law enforcement type issues.
00:45:46.860Okay. And then before I start hammering you with questions, what are your views on gun control at the moment?
00:45:54.980Are there things that could be improved? Too many guns, not enough guns.
00:45:58.860Can you give a brief background about just how you see gun control in America?
00:46:02.280Well, I think, unfortunately, a lot of the gun control that we have right now primarily disarms the very people who need protection the most.
00:46:12.020If my research convinces me of anything, it's people who are most likely victims of violent crime, overwhelmingly poor Blacks who live in high crime urban areas, who are the ones who benefit the most from having the option to be able to go and protect themselves.
00:46:26.860The police are very important, but the police themselves understand that they virtually always arrive on the crime scene after the crime's committed.0.98
00:46:35.380And having a gun turns out to be by far the safest course of action.
00:46:39.540Unfortunately, a lot of the gun control laws that we have make it very costly for poor people and discriminate against minorities.
00:46:48.900So I'll just give you one example from when I was just working in the federal government.
00:46:53.460And that is, you know, we hear that the background check system has stopped 3.8 million prohibited people from being able to go and obtain a gun.
00:48:16.500And in Washington, D.C., where they're voting on this, they have background checks on the private transfers of guns.
00:48:23.080It costs $125 to do a background check on each gun that you're going to sell.
00:48:29.300Let's say you and I lived in Washington, D.C., and I'm going to go and give you four guns.
00:48:35.060It's just one person giving one other person four guns.
00:48:39.780You think it'd just be one background check because you're the same person who's getting all the guns, right?
00:48:44.180But no, they have it set up so that there has to be a separate background check done on each gun.
00:48:50.880And so the total cost of making that one transfer is $500.
00:48:56.260Provide me with a logical explanation for why they need to make it so incredibly costly for people going to buy guns.
00:49:04.480It may not stop you or I from being able to go and get a gun.
00:49:07.900But again, the very people who need protection the most are being priced out of this.
00:49:13.280You know, Democrats will go and say, you know, we can't have photo IDs, government-issued photo IDs for voting, because that imposes too large of a burden on poor minorities.
00:50:20.540The only types of people who go and get concealed carry permits in Illinois are overwhelmingly white, wealthy males who live in the suburbs.0.88
00:50:29.280In Indiana, it's much more poor Blacks and Hispanics who live in high-crime urban areas0.86
00:50:36.060who are then able to go and afford to go and protect themselves.0.89
00:51:09.420It makes it, it's like they went through the list, $450 cost, unable to take it on public transportation, no training facilities allowed nearby you.
00:51:19.480It's kind of like they went down a checklist to do everything they possibly can to make sure that the very people who need protection the most are the ones who are not able to do it.
00:51:35.680There's two main types of concealed carry laws in the United States.
00:51:40.160They're what we call right to carry laws, which 42 of the states have, which once you meet certain criteria, you're allowed to carry.
00:51:48.900You pay a fee, you pass a background check, you do your training.
00:51:53.660And then there are eight states like New York and California where you have to provide a good reason to some public official why they should let you be able to go and have an option to carry a concealed handgun.
00:52:06.260So take Los Angeles County, okay, where I was able to get a list of everybody who had gotten approved for getting a concealed handgun permit.
00:52:15.000they only had like 216 concealed carry permits out of an adult population of 8 million people.
00:52:22.560But who do they give? Who do they decide has a good reason? Nationwide, about a third of
00:52:28.080concealed carry permit holders are women. In Los Angeles County, it's 7%. Nationwide, 13% of
00:52:35.920concealed carry permit holders are Black. In Los Angeles County, it's 5%. 54% of Los Angeles
00:52:44.200County's population is Hispanic. Only 6% of the permit holders are Hispanic. You know, you'd think
00:52:51.140are women only stalked in the rest of the country and not being stalked in Los Angeles County?
00:52:57.180Don't they have good reasons that are given there? And yet the public officials there0.84
00:53:01.760who are overwhelmingly 100% Democrat don't seem to, the only people that they think provide them
00:53:10.480with good reasons to be able to carry are basically wealthy, politically connected white
00:53:17.240males overwhelmingly are the ones that they decide have good reasons. Why is that? They say they care
00:53:24.160about poor and minorities. They say they care about women, but yet they don't seem to trust
00:53:29.620those very same people when they're asking for permission to be able to go and defend themselves
00:53:34.500and their families. Okay. So how should the government regulate guns? Like for these
00:53:43.040background checks, how do they decide who should have access to a gun and who shouldn't?
00:53:49.020Well, I mean, you can go and have it so that people who have felony backgrounds,
00:53:53.640violent felony backgrounds in particular, can be stopped from being able to go and get guns.
00:56:54.100They have to go and set up essentially their own little militaries in order to go and protect
00:56:59.640that valuable property that they have.
00:57:02.900So, you know, drug dealers like to make money.
00:57:05.720If they can make money selling drugs, they do that.
00:57:08.020If they can make money selling guns, they do that, too.
00:57:11.380And, you know, if you think you're going to be able to stop criminals from buying guns any more easily than you can stop them from buying illegal drugs, good luck with that.
00:58:03.220The most powerful gun that you've been able to legally buy in Mexico since 1972 is a .22 caliber short round rifle, which is about the least powerful gun that you can go and buy in the United States.
00:58:17.080And, you know, only about one tenth of one percent of Mexican adults is legally licensed to own a gun.
00:58:28.160It costs like $2,000 fee just to go and apply for the process to go and get a gun to own
01:04:55.380If you believe that background checks reduce violent crime, then you believe it reduces it for everybody, not just the person who's going out of the way to go and obey the law that's there.
01:05:07.440And also, you think you want to encourage people to go and obey the law.
01:05:11.920How does making somebody have to pay $125 to go and do the background check encourage them to go and do that?
01:05:19.400is you're essentially taxing them to go and do what you want them to do and go out of their way
01:05:25.200to do that. So as an economist, I would say, look, if everybody benefits, everybody should pay.
01:05:32.120And if you want to encourage people to do this, both reasons tell me you should pay for it out
01:05:37.540of general revenue. If you could make those two changes, fix the mistakes and deal with paying
01:05:45.200for it out of general revenue, if you think there are these big benefits, and I'm skeptical
01:05:50.180there are, but if you think there are these big benefits, you'd think they'd want to do
01:06:51.580I'm just saying I really want it's very hard to get debates on these types of things because gun control activists refuse to appear on at the same time.
01:07:02.420And the main reason is, is because they don't have to.
01:07:06.460Most of the media doesn't make them have to go and debates.
01:07:09.640Do you think that people pushing that are just concerned with maybe kind of punishing people who want to own guns and saying, OK, you have to do these fees and we're not footing it and they're not even considering the fact that some people have less money?
01:07:23.960I think I think that's right. I think they're trying to make it as costly as possible for people to be able to go and get guns.
01:07:30.940I'll give you another related example, and that is look at these red flag laws that they have.
01:07:37.620they're being pushed. In fact, it looks like right now the federal government's likely to
01:07:43.620be using a lot of money to encourage states to adopt these laws in the current $3.5 trillion
01:07:50.680spending bill that they have. What are the laws? Well, these are laws that are set up so that
01:07:57.960if you're concerned about somebody being a danger to themselves or others, you can go
01:08:02.940and register a complaint a judge will see a piece of paper with the complaint and then they'll go
01:08:08.800and take away the person's gun that's there for some period of time maybe a month and then there'll
01:08:13.900be a hearing whether or not to make it permanent or not yikes okay so here's the deal we already
01:08:21.800have in all the states and it goes by different names often called baker act california is called
01:08:28.3605150, where if you're concerned somebody's a danger to themselves or others, you go to the
01:08:34.760police, the person will undergo a 24-hour to 72-hour psychiatric evaluation where you'll have
01:08:42.580psychiatric experts there. And then you'll have immediately following that a hearing where if you
01:08:49.860can't afford it, a lawyer will be provided for you, okay? And the judge has a whole range of
01:08:55.640options then. He can go and require that you get voluntary treatment. He can go and take away your
01:09:02.020weapons if he's concerned about that. Or he can go in the most extreme case and involuntarily
01:09:07.620commit somebody. Virtually always, all these things are used for concerns about suicide.
01:09:14.380The thing is, the red flag laws don't involve mental health care experts. If you can't afford
01:09:22.520a lawyer, tough. You have to go in on your own. In fact, you look at these cases in the red flag
01:09:30.100law, it costs about $10,000 to go and do a hearing. The only thing that happens under the red flag
01:09:38.800laws is that you lose your ability to have a gun. Well, I may want to have a gun. I may care about0.86
01:09:44.660it for protection. But $10,000? I mean, $10,000 is a lot of money there. And so the vast majority
01:09:52.040of people who go through that process don't get a lawyer when they have to go to court.
01:09:59.520And it makes it pretty hard when you're up against lawyers and you don't have a lawyer
01:10:03.920yourself representing you to be able to go and win those types of cases.
01:10:08.940But it's not because the people think that they're really a danger or whatever.
01:10:13.280It's just that they don't, even if they can't afford it.
01:10:15.660But here's the problem, is that the type of change that they want to make can actually
01:10:21.420have the opposite effect of what they'd like to have what they claim they want to have happen
01:10:26.900i have a very close friend of mine uh who's watched her husband be murdered in front of her
01:10:35.400by one of her stalkers and um uh if you have these types of red flag laws that are there
01:10:44.240let's say a friend of hers, a relative, neighbor, they say, look, she's really depressed, okay?
01:10:52.620I mean, anybody would be. You've just had your loved one, watched your loved one murdered in
01:10:57.820front of you by one of your stalkers that are there. And they know that she has a gun. And so
01:11:03.480they could go and say, look, I'm worried she's depressed. I'm going to, she has a gun. I'll make0.92
01:11:09.600a complaint. The only thing the judge sees when he makes the decision whether or not to take away
01:11:14.720the person's gun is that written complaint. Well, in her case, if you put yourself in that
01:11:21.300situation, you've just had one of your stalkers murdered your husband. How do you think you'd
01:11:27.640feel if your ability to go and protect yourself was going to be taken away from you? Do you think
01:11:32.740that'd make you even more depressed? And what does that do to your incentive to go and talk to people
01:11:38.580to share your feelings with others if you worry that somebody might misinterpret it. Simply being
01:11:45.180able to go and talk to people is very helpful when you're extremely depressed like that. Just
01:11:51.920being able to share your feelings, know that you're not alone, can make a huge difference in
01:11:56.960terms of how people get through this type of thing. And yet the gun control advocates have
01:12:02.320set up a process in uh 18 states now where simply could be a very well-meaning person
01:12:10.500puts in a complaint judge hears nothing from the person who's the complaint is being launched
01:12:16.940against and you know he may be well-meaning himself he sees this person's depressed they
01:12:21.860have a gun yeah but if you have the process that we've had these baker act type of things0.87
01:12:29.480she could go in there. She gets evaluated by a psychiatric expert. She can explain to the1.00
01:12:35.700expert why it's important that she still be able to go and defend herself. And even if she couldn't
01:12:41.540convince that person, she goes to court. And if she can't afford a lawyer, one is provided for her
01:12:47.520and she can make an argument to the judge. So you have to ask yourself, why did gun control advocates0.57
01:12:54.440push a situation where it would make people actually afraid to go and talk to people.
01:13:01.100Take police officers. Police officers tend to commit suicide at a relatively high rate
01:13:06.320compared to the general population. They tend to be depressed at a relatively high rate
01:13:11.200compared to the rest of the population. Why? I mean, they see horrible things on the job
01:13:18.120all the time. Do we want to make it so police officers are afraid to go and share their
01:13:24.540feelings with other people? If you take away a police officer's gun, what do you think you do
01:13:29.160to their job? You've taken away their job that's there. They lose their job if you take away their
01:13:35.640guns. Do we want to make it so that police officers are afraid to go and talk to people?
01:13:41.240And yet, again, I think these are simple, reasonable changes, okay?
01:13:48.600Pay for a lawyer if a person can't afford it.
01:13:52.860Include mental health care experts into process and have mental health care experts evaluate
01:13:58.500the person before you go and you have a hearing.
01:14:01.480Don't have the judge simply making a decision based only on seeing the written complaint
01:14:07.520and not being able to hear the other person's side of the story.
01:14:10.840when he's making that type of decision that's there you know and besides if I'm really concerned
01:14:18.280about somebody committing suicide really concerned is the only solution to take away their gun
01:14:23.980is there like no other way for these people to go and kill themselves I mean go talk to Jeffrey
01:14:29.960Epstein if you don't think that there's other ways for people to go and kill themselves uh
01:14:35.600And so, you know, it's I think a lot of this is just to demonize the gun.
01:14:41.820It's just to say, well, if you take away the guns, situation's solved.
01:14:50.220I think that's really misleading for people.
01:14:53.140And I think there's evidence out there that, in fact, you increase suicide rates.
01:14:58.920And I think for the reason that I was just mentioning, that you make it so that people
01:15:03.300now are afraid to go and share their feelings and talk to other people.
01:15:09.740What do you think of people who think that there needs to be more education surrounding
01:15:15.680how you store guns and safety with guns, and that that's one of the problems with American
01:15:20.900gun control at the moment, is just lack of education?
01:15:24.460I have no problem with people being educated about it.
01:15:27.540but here's the thing. I think if you look at the numbers, Americans are extremely responsible
01:15:33.580with regard to guns. You can go to the Centers for Disease Control website,
01:15:39.760their fatal injury report data that they have. And what you'll find for, let's say, kids under
01:15:46.380age 10 in the United States, for the most recent year, there was 36 accidental gun deaths in the
01:15:52.440United States. Is 36, do you wish it was zero? Yeah, sure, I wish it was zero. But when you
01:15:58.440consider half of American homes have guns in, okay, and you go and you look at anything else,
01:16:04.900you have like 95 kids under five who drowned in five-gallon water buckets. You have more than
01:16:14.100that who drowned in bathtubs in the home. So if I were to go and just ask you beforehand and say,
01:16:20.700okay, guns are owned in half of American homes. What is your guess that children under age 10
01:16:28.180died from accidental gunshots? My guess is your number would have been much higher than 36.
01:16:34.420And part of the reason is, is whenever these things happen, they get national news coverage
01:16:40.100and it makes people think that they're more common than they are, I think, to some extent.
01:16:44.560But, you know, and even when you look at those 36, about two thirds of those are not shots by other children.
01:16:56.920They're shots by adult males, usually in their mid to late 20s, who have criminal records, who have, in many cases, it's illegal for them to own guns and are often drug addicts or alcoholics.
01:17:09.940So, you know, I can go and say we want to educate people, but a lot of these guys, it's illegal for them to own the gun to begin with. And so if I go and pass a gun lock wall, is it going to affect these guys? And a gun lock's not going to affect an adult male, particularly an adult male criminal, who's unlikely to go and obey the law to begin with, to be able to go and do it. It's not going to stop him from accidentally firing his gun.
01:17:35.420But here's the problem, and that is their costs and benefits.
01:17:42.380I mean, as an economist, we're always weighing trade-offs with different things.
01:17:47.460And so I go and pass a law that requires people have to lock up their guns in their homes,
01:17:53.720which is one of the things that's involved with this.
01:17:57.280It doesn't make sense for everybody to do it.
01:17:59.260If I live in a high crime urban area, I may want to have quick access to a gun that's there.
01:18:06.560Delaying it may make it so that I'm not able to go and defend myself and my family.
01:18:11.880You have to weigh the risks of the gun in the home versus the fact that people aren't going to be able to go and defend themselves.
01:18:19.500And often when these laws get passed, you'll see about a five percentage point drop in gun ownership that occurs right when these safe storage laws get passed.
01:18:29.260And a lot of that has to do with the exaggerated stories that occur in the media at that time about the dangers of having guns in the home.
01:18:39.200And so, look, I mean, I have five kids.
01:18:41.600I don't want anything to happen to any of my kids.
01:18:43.980But I would go and argue that the vast majority of Americans are extremely careful.
01:18:50.140Look, the risk of a child dying from an accidental gunshot in the home is less than the risk of them dying from lightning strikes.
01:18:58.220Do I go and tell my kids not to go in an open field with an umbrella when it's lightning outside? Yeah, sure. There's sensible things you try to go and do. I would just argue, I think, looking at the data, that the vast majority of Americans are actually behaving fairly responsibly and that, unfortunately, this gets back to your point before about whether a lot of these laws are just trying to make it cost for people to be able to go and own guns.
01:19:25.180And I think this is just another example of it. They try in many different ways to do that.
01:19:32.220Okay, last question. Do states that have stricter gun laws, does that reduce gun crime?
01:19:40.220No, it has the opposite effect. Let me give you just a simple example just to think about. This
01:19:45.880is an extreme case, but it applies generally. And that is, can you name me one place in the world
01:19:52.280that's banned either all guns or all handguns and seen murder or homicide rates go down.
01:20:17.000But you'd think, particularly if you believe guns on net are bad, you would think, for sure, it should go down every single time.
01:20:24.960And yet every single time, you know, Americans know about what happened in Chicago and Washington, D.C., when we had handgun bans there and the murder rates went up.
01:20:35.960Gun control advocates will say, well, that really wasn't a fair test, because unless you go and you ban guns every place, people can still go and get guns from Maryland or Virginia or from the rest of Illinois or from Indiana.
01:20:50.460The problem is that doesn't explain why the murder rates went up.
01:20:54.400It may explain why it didn't fall as much as they were originally predicting it was going to do.
01:21:00.540But they were able to get the guns from those other places to begin with before the ban went into effect.
01:21:05.960And so, but here's the problem, and that is, and this applies to gun control laws generally, and that is you have to be careful when you pass a law that you're not going to be primarily disarming law-abiding citizens relative to criminals.
01:21:20.820You may take some guns away from criminals, but if it's mainly, in this case, law-abiding
01:21:25.980citizens turning in their guns, obeying the law, so you're primarily disarming the victims
01:21:31.900relative to the criminals, you actually can make it easier for criminals to go and commit