The National Telegraph - Wyatt Claypool - November 17, 2025


Carney LIED about his budget - PBO shows cooked numbers!


Episode Stats

Length

18 minutes

Words per Minute

172.96782

Word Count

3,201

Sentence Count

176


Summary

Jason Jocks, the interim parliamentary budget officer, is doing exactly what he was appointed to do. He's calling out the Liberal government for all the stupid things they're doing, and he's not letting them get away with it.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Wyatt Claypool here. It's been absolutely hilarious to watch just how much
00:00:06.160 Prime Minister Mark Carney and his Liberal government have lived to regret appointing
00:00:11.280 Jason Jocks as the Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer. They're not regretting it because he's
00:00:16.960 bad at his job, they're regretting it because he's fantastic at his job. Jason Jocks is like
00:00:22.960 an accountant's accountant. He is not letting the Liberal government get away with anything,
00:00:27.680 and I assume that they thought if they appointed him as an interim PBO, he would mostly mind his
00:00:33.960 manners and not call them out for anything, but he is calling them out for everything. The other day,
00:00:39.560 I played a hilarious clip where Liberal MP Vince Gasparro was trying to like reason with Jason
00:00:46.420 and say, well, yes, you've said all these things in your report about our spending being unsustainable,
00:00:52.060 but isn't it true though that maybe in the medium to long term things will get better
00:00:57.060 and it cuts to Jason Jocks on the feed of like the live stream of this committee meeting. He's like,
00:01:02.340 well, I use the word unsustainable for a reason and it's, I love how little he pulls punches,
00:01:08.700 but now the Liberals want to get rid of him. Now he is interim and there are people out there saying,
00:01:14.520 well, this is stupid for the Conservatives to accuse Carney of firing him. He's an interim. He was
00:01:18.960 never going to be permanent. The problem is, is that Jason Jocks is supposed to be the interim PBO
00:01:25.740 for six months. Could they replace him with a new permanent PBO before then? Sure, but we're about
00:01:32.980 to go into the Christmas season. I don't think you're going to appoint a new PBO in the middle of
00:01:37.960 November or December. Typically speaking, there are fixed times when a permanent PBO has their term
00:01:45.620 start and their term end. And usually there is an interim or like the fall and the winter. And then
00:01:51.140 you appoint the new guy in the spring when a normal human being would want to start the new job.
00:01:57.260 But they're trying to get rid of him like way earlier because he won't shut his face full about
00:02:02.760 all the stupid things the Liberals are doing. And that's why I find it so fantastic. Before we get
00:02:08.240 into his report, I just want to show you this tweet from Pierre Polyev just as a little bit of a table setter
00:02:15.620 he says, no wonder Carney wants to fire their parliamentary budget officer. Canada's top budget
00:02:21.140 watchdog today published a brutal report exposing how Carney's costly credit card budget cooks the
00:02:26.680 books, doubles the deficit, and promises fake savings. Canadians can't afford the cost of Carney.
00:02:33.400 And now I'm going to read you part of the PBO report. He has some top line findings we're going
00:02:39.100 to go over because naturally we're not going to read page upon page of the PBO's analysis in the full
00:02:44.860 report. But what he highlights at the front of his website about this latest release is quite damning
00:02:52.420 about how the Liberals have been attempting to spin their budget. He says, quote, budget 2025 projects
00:02:58.980 that debt to GDP ratio will stay mostly stable over the next 30 years, says Jason Jocks, interim PBO.
00:03:06.800 Quote, this is different from the last three years when fiscal policy provided more flexibility
00:03:11.600 to deal with future risks. And then basically he's saying that like we're going to be holding
00:03:17.520 debt to GDP stable. But the problem is naturally over time, because our debt to GDP had gone up a lot
00:03:24.020 over the past few years, you would want there to be more room in the budget to potentially be able to
00:03:29.780 lower that debt to GDP. Right now, the best case scenario is just basically keeping it as is. And our
00:03:36.660 current state isn't great right now. We lost our triple A credit rating and we dropped down to a
00:03:42.140 double A. And now he says right here, budget 2025 also sets out new fiscal anchors to balance the
00:03:50.800 operating budget and make sure the deficit to GDP ratio declines over time. Quote, our analysis shows
00:03:58.260 there is only a 7.5% chance the deficit to GDP ratio will fall every year from fiscal year 2026 and
00:04:07.400 2027 to fiscal year 2029-2030, Jocks said. Quote, this means government's new anchors is unlikely to
00:04:15.440 hold. So even basically Carney is trying to throw a pea into a shot glass across the room. That is the
00:04:23.700 current budgetary plan. We are going to be able to just simply maintain the current debt to GDP ratio
00:04:30.860 if everything goes perfect. And let's be clear, it's probably not because things come up. And
00:04:37.760 naturally, Jason Shocks can take that into account. But even just based on the current foreseeable future,
00:04:44.380 it is a 7.5% chance of even working. Going down a little bit further, the PBO also says the
00:04:51.920 government's definition of capital investments is too broad. Using the PBO's definition based on
00:04:57.680 international practice, capital investments would total 217 billion from fiscal year 2024 to 2025
00:05:05.060 to 2029 to 2030. About 94 billion less than the budget, than budget 2025 estimates. Quote,
00:05:15.460 to improve transparency, an independent expert group should decide what counts as capital investments
00:05:20.880 under the expanded definition. So basically, what Carney had done was proven that based on current
00:05:28.600 tax revenues, that at least the operating budget of the government does in fact balance. The deficit
00:05:35.120 only applies to those new capital investments that we are making. See, this is the whole lie of we're
00:05:40.980 going to spend less and invest more because, hey, look, we're spending less because we can balance the
00:05:46.860 current operating budget. Our actual spending on the day to day stuff has, you know, been has been has
00:05:53.020 been like kind of reined in. It's more conservative now. And so now we're going to invest more with a
00:05:59.260 little bit of debt of a deficit, even though we're running a 70 billion dollar deficit. But now the deficit
00:06:04.600 is just our investment. So it's not as bad as just running up deficits based on your health care
00:06:09.660 spending or some other things that you must spend money on. Jocks points out that 79, what is it,
00:06:17.720 94 billion dollars of the investment, of the capital investments, are in fact really operating budgets
00:06:26.080 that have just been relabeled. In fact, the operating budget itself is still causing a massive deficit.
00:06:33.320 He literally more than the current deficit because the current deficit is 70 billion dollars. 94 billion
00:06:41.120 was misallocated, was miscategorized as being capital spending when it's really operating spending
00:06:47.760 because Carney just had to try and fake it. He tried to pretend like he was being more fiscally
00:06:53.000 conservative. Yes, guys, I am running a deficit, but it's it's an investment. No, not at all. In fact,
00:06:59.580 more than the entire deficit costs is how much he miscategorized probably on purpose. This was not
00:07:06.860 a mistake because he's saying based on normal PBO practices, which is based on international
00:07:12.660 practices, you would have never labeled this stuff as capital investments. But now I want to move on
00:07:19.680 to looking at some more stuff on X. I always like to bookmark a few things to sort of walk us through
00:07:25.360 flavor the conversation a little bit. This is why this is one thing I have to address right now.
00:07:31.460 There are some people who, again, are criticizing Paulia for saying the liberals are trying to get
00:07:35.340 rid of Jason Jocks. It is absolutely true. They want his term to end as interim PBO as fast as human
00:07:42.080 possibly as humanly possible. He's only gotten through one third of his term and now he already
00:07:47.820 wants the guy gone, even though he should be there for the full six before you go turn over to your
00:07:52.560 new permanent parliamentary budget officer for a few years. Rupa Supramania says, why does Paulia
00:07:58.520 feel the need to do this when there's plenty to criticize? And she's basically pointing out like,
00:08:05.260 oh, well, they're not actually firing him because he's in the interim. But look, they put him on duty
00:08:11.640 on September 3rd, 2025 for a six month term. And they're currently trying to get rid of him.
00:08:18.200 That's the problem. Yes, they can technically replace him. They are allowed to technically
00:08:24.160 replace him early, maybe with the new permanent PBO. But the fact that they are chafing so hard when
00:08:30.540 usually the interim is supposed to stick around for the full six months before the next guy takes over
00:08:34.900 is telling about what they think about the things that Jason Jocks has been saying. Because this is
00:08:40.400 usually a pretty boring position. You don't have a lot of politics surrounding who ends up becoming
00:08:45.880 the PBO and when you replace him. It's, you know, you find a guy and his term is going to start in
00:08:50.660 six months after the interim is done. No, they're breaking precedent by trying to replace him early.
00:08:57.260 But we have a Polly of here going after the liberals very hard when it comes to just fiscal
00:09:02.360 irresponsibility. He says, Mark Carney set up an entirely new liberal bureaucracy so he could
00:09:08.560 reannounce already approved handpicked projects. To fix it, he needs to just do one thing,
00:09:13.920 get his liberal government out of the way. Because he is going after Mark Carney for basically trying
00:09:19.800 to pad out his very thin record so far. Naturally, he hasn't been in government very long. But
00:09:24.700 Carney thinks there could be an election in the spring. And so he just keeps announcing major
00:09:29.080 projects, many of which have been started a long time ago. And he's just pretending to fast track
00:09:34.480 them. There's no real way of fast tracking a project that is just already underway. The only thing
00:09:40.640 you can fast track a project through is the governmental, like, you know, bureaucratic hoop
00:09:45.660 jumping. Most of these projects aren't dealing with that anymore. He's just saying I'm fast tracking
00:09:49.920 them. And in this quote right here on the graphic says, what is the is the major product? What use
00:09:56.520 is the major projects office when the government keeps selecting proposals that have already been
00:10:01.240 approved? As written by John Iveson in his National Post story. And I read the CEO of the major
00:10:08.360 projects office saying in a global news story, well, that yeah, part of our, you know, part of the
00:10:14.580 consideration of what we fast track is what's close to already being done. You think it would be in
00:10:19.720 reverse that you would fast track things that, you know, haven't been started yet. You know, we want to
00:10:24.940 fast track something that hasn't had any action for two years. No, they're fast tracking things that are
00:10:30.200 like, almost all the way clear. Because Carney wants these things to be, you know, he wants to be at the
00:10:35.720 ribbon cutting and pretend he had anything to do with it at all, when he clearly does not.
00:10:41.500 But of course, also, Polyev was talking about the new PBO report. And he said right here,
00:10:49.380 breaking the budget watchdog gave Carney a 7.5% chance of meeting his own made up fiscal anchors.
00:10:56.480 Canadians cannot afford the cost of Carney and his credit card budget. I want to jump down now to this
00:11:02.240 report that came out on CTV News that Roman Baber had posted about all of the additional debt that
00:11:10.180 Canadians are taking on for much of the nonsensical spending in the budget.
00:11:14.740 Today, the federal government outlined its new climate competitiveness strategy as global trade
00:11:20.680 upheavals, rapid technological change, and clean energy is reshaping the world economy.
00:11:26.480 Minister of Environment and Climate Change...
00:11:28.680 Sorry, but like, is it? This is what I do not like about the mainstream media in Canada.
00:11:33.980 90% of what they say oftentimes is accurate, because it's just the very boring details of
00:11:38.840 the story. The 10% where they're wrong is the spin. Green energy is changing the world right now?
00:11:46.240 Not really. Not really. Green energy in Canada, as well as the vast majority of the rest of the world,
00:11:52.980 is driven by subsidies. It's not exactly like a thriving industry that's reshaping the economy
00:11:58.040 unless you think the government injecting money into a very hollow industry counts as how green
00:12:05.200 energy is reshaping the economy around the world.
00:12:08.200 ...and Energy Minister Tim Hodgson announced today the government will invest over a trillion dollars
00:12:14.940 over the next five years, driving growth in nuclear, hydro, wind, energy storage,
00:12:20.780 and grid infrastructure to make Canada a leader in the low-carbon economy.
00:12:25.060 Later in what? And also, of course, they're showing, like, images of forest fires at the same time
00:12:31.100 they're talking about this.
00:12:32.220 It prioritizes...
00:12:33.220 Because there was not, like, there's not, like, a forest fire going on that they were following.
00:12:36.900 That wasn't, like, live updates of a report. We're talking about climate change,
00:12:40.200 so let's throw the fires on the screen to make whatever the Liberals are doing seem less stupid.
00:12:44.940 It's measures that deliver the greatest emissions reductions
00:12:49.140 and increases competitiveness at the lowest cost for Canadians.
00:12:53.220 What are they talking about competitiveness? Because, as you see, Roman Baber, who's a great
00:12:58.680 conservative MP, he points out, Mark Carney's 2025-2026 deficit will cost your family
00:13:04.760 $5,400 in additional debt. Meanwhile, Mark Carney cronies will get trillions of dollars in new green scams.
00:13:12.220 This is exactly what it is. Are there some green initiatives that are privately funded
00:13:17.540 and that would be successful without the government? Sure. I don't begrudge even those people
00:13:22.300 for taking a grant. If you are already in the industry in good faith and the government's
00:13:25.780 offering you money, I'm not going to slag you for taking it. But so many people in the green energy
00:13:31.760 economy are basically just people who know how to get grants. They know how to work the system.
00:13:36.680 In fact, they're a lot like Mark Carney. That's what he did when he was the chair of Brookfield
00:13:41.140 Asset Management. He's not a financial wizard at all. That's why he's not doing very well as
00:13:46.080 prime minister on the fiscal issues at the moment. Because when he was the chair of Brookfield
00:13:51.940 Asset Management, he got them a lot of business because he knew how to corner the markets
00:13:56.060 on government subsidies, on grants, on tax breaks. It's not because he knew how to start
00:14:02.500 very productive businesses and invest in them with Brookfield Asset Management. He just put money
00:14:07.780 where the government was also injecting money. And obviously, you couldn't possibly not make
00:14:12.180 something that way. As soon as Donald Trump became the president of the United States again,
00:14:17.020 in fact, I believe the Net Zero Banking Association or some international banking
00:14:22.200 like a partnership group or whatever, it immediately died. You know why? Because Trump cut off a lot of the
00:14:29.580 green subsidies. And all of this only worked. All the financing, all the ability to make money on this
00:14:34.780 stuff, only worked if the government was injecting money into the system artificially despite the low
00:14:41.440 productivity, despite the inefficiency of green energy and a lot of like, you know, electric vehicles
00:14:47.740 and batteries and whatnot. It's so dumb. But anyways, that should probably be it for me today, guys.
00:14:55.260 Man, I don't actually know it. Know what? Guys, we got to play the clip of Jason Jocks again before we go
00:15:00.760 because I've been talking about Jason Jocks, but we have not seen the man on screen himself.
00:15:06.100 I have to say, this is so weird. He reminds me, because I watch the show a lot, he reminds me
00:15:11.440 of Julian Bashir, or like the brother of Julian Bashir, if he had a brother in that show,
00:15:18.800 from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. There's just something about him. I just love just how
00:15:24.760 obviously he just knows that the liberals are trying to shape what he's saying here and he
00:15:30.320 just does not go along with it. This was from like a month and a half back, but it was fantastic.
00:15:33.900 And obviously, you project, so we're on a good fiscal path, or we're on a better fiscal path
00:15:42.220 than some of our G7 colleagues. And you project our deficit staying under 2% of GDP
00:15:49.460 and debt holding near the low 40% range. Would you agree that these kinds of thresholds
00:15:56.800 are really in practice fiscal anchors that signal some discipline?
00:16:06.300 I would go back to one of the comments I made at the outset that, like the most important word,
00:16:13.400 I love the faces he makes, because like, he must say this stuff because it bubbles through him
00:16:19.520 that he must be honest about the numbers. At the same time, his face reads like this,
00:16:25.260 you know, I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to hurt Vince Gasparro's feelings here about
00:16:29.760 their terrible fiscal management so far. Because Vince Gasparro was like, well, you know,
00:16:35.460 the targets we've set ourselves in and of themselves, you could see that that's like a fiscal anchor.
00:16:40.100 And it's like, no, we just read the report he released two days ago saying that these are not
00:16:45.680 fiscal anchors at all. You have a 7.5% chance of actually meeting your targets, because there's
00:16:51.600 nothing actually really preventing the liberals from spending more. There's nothing that's actually
00:16:57.920 going to keep the budget from exploding over time with new costs. And overall, they're just
00:17:03.760 planning on potentially reducing operating expenses over the next four years. And that's going to
00:17:09.140 somehow make everything work in the long run, even though everything that it's kind of complicated.
00:17:15.440 But when the liberals say that they're going to be cutting operating expenses by 15% or personnel
00:17:20.080 expenses by 15%, that's all phasing in on over such a large period of time, they're never actually going
00:17:25.480 to stick to it. In the release this morning was unsustainable. We like it. I don't know, we didn't.
00:17:33.480 We didn't choose it carelessly. I've been in the office for 17 years. I was working in the federal
00:17:41.080 government putting together budgets for 10 years prior to that. You got to be like, you choose these
00:17:45.900 words of prudence and care. And certainly, we don't want to be alarmist. And at the same time,
00:17:52.620 like the current path we're on in terms of federal debt as a share of the economy is unsustainable.
00:18:00.220 I love that moment as well, when he's just like saying they're like, you know, like,
00:18:04.060 you know, I don't know, we're not just throwing words out, we're using the words that we used for
00:18:08.940 a reason. And Vince Gasparro is like, they're kind of like trying to cajole him into saying,
00:18:13.820 why don't you just say that we're doing at least something correct? And it's like,
00:18:16.780 because you're not doing anything correct. That's why he made the report. Anyways, so that should be
00:18:23.000 it for me today, guys. Seriously, this time, like, share, subscribe, do all that fantastic stuff. And
00:18:28.840 I'll see you guys all next time.