The National Telegraph - Wyatt Claypool - How Canada Became Khalistani HQ (ft. Balraj Deol)

00:00:00.720 Welcome, everyone. This is a pretty special episode. We have a pretty awesome guest with us.

00:00:06.480 Baraj Deol is an expert on the Kalistani issue, and a lot of you might be saying,

00:00:11.880 hey, what exactly is this whole Kalistani thing going on?

00:00:15.380 Some of you might have been screaming about Kalistani nonsense for years, like I have.

00:00:20.220 So we have provided the best we can get on this issue, a man with deep and extensive knowledge.

00:00:24.920 And here's how this is going to go.

00:00:25.940 But we want to make this a good 101 for people who are just waking up to this issue to see,

00:00:33.380 but also something that people who understand the issue can get something out of.

00:00:37.220 So I'm going to play the role of Canadian who is concerned about Kalistan,

00:00:43.400 just saw it in the news, read a few things about the Air India bombing,

00:00:48.300 and is sort of wide-eyed, oh, my God, what's going on?

00:00:51.520 So that's going to be where I'm coming from.

00:00:53.480 I'm going to try and speak as someone who's just heard about Kalistan yesterday and is interested.

00:00:59.920 Whereas Wyatt, my friend, Claypool, our colleague, will be playing the role of Wyatt Claypool,

00:01:04.880 a political nerd who knows way too much about everything

00:01:07.520 and somehow has allowed on Indian television alongside me to ramble about this issue.

00:01:12.780 Daniel knows more than me, but I can't help myself and pretend that I don't know stuff,

00:01:16.400 so he has to fill that profession for the podcast.

00:01:21.020 So with all that said, we'd like to throw the floor to Baraj. 1.00

00:01:24.800 Maybe can you give the people a brief history of your background,

00:01:29.520 why you're here, and some of the things you've done,

00:01:33.100 just a brief intro so we can start this baby up?

00:01:37.320 Well, I'm living in Canada since 1977.

00:01:42.880 I published a weekly Punjabi newspaper named Khabar Nama,

00:01:48.940 which literally means newsletter, for about 21 years.

00:01:52.980 I had to fold this operation after COVID hit.

00:01:57.260 So that is the brief background I have with media, about 21 years.

00:02:04.900 Excellent.

00:02:06.060 So you have a pretty in-depth understanding of the Kalistani network

00:02:11.680 and how it's started in Canada.

00:02:14.400 So let's go to, where would you say is a good beginning point

00:02:18.700 to get into the Kalistani issue?

00:02:21.440 Like if you had to start like one spot,

00:02:25.020 where do you think the big chapter one starts?

00:02:30.100 Well, actually, the Kalistani issue was there probably from the very beginning,

00:02:38.440 like after India got independence.

00:02:41.800 But it was like minutely discussed here and there.

00:02:45.420 But after 1971 war, where Pakistan was partitioned,

00:02:52.580 that is when Pakistan planned to incite Sikhs to demand Khalistan.

00:02:59.480 That is where it began.

00:03:01.200 And one of the ex-ministers of Punjab, his name was Zigjit Singh Chauhan.

00:03:06.640 He left India.

00:03:07.580 He came to England.

00:03:08.520 Then he visited Canada.

00:03:09.720 Then he visited USA.

00:03:11.460 He certainly got some support from Americans.

00:03:15.040 He came out with a full-page advertisement in New York Times in mid-70s.

00:03:21.960 He came to Canada.

00:03:23.600 He got in touch with Diaspora, which was like a very small community.

00:03:29.040 He started printing Khalistan passports and Khalistani stamps

00:03:33.220 and currency notes and so on just to impress.

00:03:39.000 Sort of promotional items almost?

00:03:42.320 That is right.

00:03:43.320 So he was back and forth between Canada, USA and UK, basically three countries.

00:03:48.420 He was living in UK.

00:03:49.360 And then came 1982 when the main Sikh political party in Punjab,

00:03:57.920 which is Sharomani Akhali Dal, they were out of power.

00:04:01.200 And the history is whenever they are out of power, they will start inciting issues like this,

00:04:09.240 which are kind of close to the heart, maybe to the Sikh community.

00:04:13.000 They are a bit emotional issues.

00:04:14.960 Oh, the center is taking our waters away, giving it to other states, 0.99

00:04:18.680 which I think very much common even in any federation and democratic setup.

00:04:23.480 Like we have seen the oil issue with the Dalberta and the senior Trudeau.

00:04:28.780 So Akhali party will start raising emotional issues of waters of Punjabi speaking areas which are left out of Punjab and so on.

00:04:38.540 So they started a morcha means a kind of agitation to get those issues addressed by the center because basically they were out of power.

00:04:50.320 So they wanted to rally their troops around them to win the next election.

00:04:55.320 And that slowly became an emotional issue.

00:04:59.720 And then a fundamentalist saint, so-called saint, Sant Jarnal Singh Bindarawala, he got into it.

00:05:09.380 He started violent activities and there are a lot of proofs of it.

00:05:14.220 And then he made Golden Temple his main base.

00:05:18.800 That is where Operation Blue Star took place.

00:05:24.300 That is called Operation Blue Star, the army action to flush him out because there was a lot of violence in India and especially in Punjab, a lot of killings.

00:05:33.740 And there was pressure on the government that this separatist movement is taking hold.

00:05:40.280 Pakistan is supporting it.

00:05:41.580 After that Operation Blue Star, the Khalistanis in India and overseas, they made it a kind of prestige issue that, look, government has attacked our temple, our holiest shrine, and we must take revenge for it. 0.99

00:05:58.080 As a revenge, they killed Prime Minister of India, Indira Gandhi, by her own bodyguards who were under oath to protect her.

00:06:06.080 And then they started celebrating her murder, which gave excuse to some political elements to incite Hindus and other, especially the poor people living around Delhi to kind of loot and punish the Sikhs,

00:06:30.080 the Sikhs, which resulted into a lot of innocent killings in Delhi and some other cities in India, that gave even stronger kind of foundation to these Khalistanis, both in India and overseas, 1.00

00:06:44.420 that now, look, we are not safe in India, our temple was attacked, then a lot of Sikhs were killed as a result of Mrs. Gandhi's murder.

00:06:54.420 So that is when this movement took hold overseas, especially in the diaspora communities.

00:07:00.420 But they never discussed what brought the government or the situation up to the level of a military operation.

00:07:10.420 What was that so-called saint doing and who was behind all those killings of Sikhs? 1.00

00:07:18.420 Because soon those killings took place, the militants started killing whoever was, they had doubt on.

00:07:28.420 They targeted a lot of people. So instead of-

00:07:31.420 Can I just get to clarify, this is, are we talking about the killings that predated Operation Blue Star?

00:07:37.420 So like the terrorism or is this, are you talking about during the anti-Sikh riots, as they say?

00:07:42.420 Anti-Sikh riots. The logical way would have been that when there were attacks on the Sikhs, a lot of Sikhs were killed. 0.87

00:07:53.420 Government did not take action for three days. Immediately, all the people who matter, like the lawyers, like intellectuals, like community leaders,

00:08:06.420 they should, they should, they should gather all the evidence so that the guilty should be, should be, should be punished.

00:08:14.420 They should rally around to gather all the evidence. But all that time was lost.

00:08:19.420 Incidentally, there were some Punjabi Hindus. They published a booklet who are guilty. 1.00

00:08:25.420 They gathered the evidence and Sikhs were all lost. Like they, they were, they were directionless what to do. 1.00

00:08:35.420 And the militants started punishing those people, whoever they doubted on their own.

00:08:41.420 So that is what, that was the starting point of terrorism after Blue Star.

00:08:47.420 Yeah.

00:08:48.420 So I just, just to clarify for a question regarding before Blue Star, because you mentioned Jarnal Binderwal occupying the Golden Temple, like the holiest site in Sikhism.

00:08:59.420 And was the point, the reason why, because I've seen this sort of disputed, but also claim, is that the reason why the military, and you can also clarify if it was mostly Sikh troops who were clearing him out, because that's also something that some people try and dispute.

00:09:15.420 But was it that Binderwal was in the Golden Temple and ordering basically attacks on government installations in Punjab and government officials, and then after Blue Star and after Imjom Gandhi's assassination, then the anti-Sikh riots, then the, the targets of Kalistani terrorists kind of became wider, where it became anyone, it became government officials, government institutions, as well as anyone who wasn't supporting Kalistan.

00:09:41.420 No, actually, Pindranwala also caused innocent killings before Blue Star.

00:09:48.420 For example, six people were pulled out of a bus, and they were killed near Jalandhar, which is a district city.

00:09:58.420 That predates Blue Star.

00:09:59.420 That predates Blue Star.

00:10:00.420 And there is a lot of evidence now that that killing was ordered by Bindranwala, and it was carried out by his men to create chaos.

00:10:13.420 And that is when the federal government or the central government, as it's called in India, they dissolved the kind of the Punjab government, the elected Punjab government and imposed the governor's rule.

00:10:26.420 And there were, there are other instances, for example, there is a video on the, on the net, a lot of Khalistanis will say he was a saint, he was very pacifist, he did not mean any, any violence, he was good for Hindus, he was giving them justice, they will give several examples, and so on.

00:10:45.420 But there is a video, like there are several, but I will mention one, that his bus was detained by the police.

00:10:52.420 And he is lecturing the people or his followers, and he's stating very clearly that if my bus is not released within 24 hours, I will kill 5000 Hindus.

00:11:06.420 Now, I mean, can any pacifist say this? What was the fault of the 5000 Hindus he wanted to kill? The police detained his bus. He should have taken maybe some other course. 0.93

00:11:20.420 In defense, though, that's only 10% as bad as the World Sikh Organization, which promised to kill 50,000 Hindus. So by comparison, he looks a little bit less insane. 0.96

00:11:33.420 I think that's a good transition point to then move on and talk about the founding of the World Sikh Organization after Blue Star.

00:11:41.980 Well, let's, I just want to sort of drive one point home here, and sort of mark a flag for our newcomers here.

00:11:48.380 This is what the situation just described is often what's used in Kalistani propaganda. So, for example, Jagmeet Singh tried to get a motion passed to declare like a Sikh genocide, India did a Sikh genocide.

00:11:59.760 And this is what they're talking about. It's, and you've made the cut and often a lot of context is omitted, right? The assassination of Indra Gandhi, which we in Canada had a float celebrating just a few months ago, response to this, you know, the Operation Blue Star, like the multi, like there were a bunch of terrorist attacks.

00:12:17.760 terrorist attacks that led up to the need to take out people. And it's unfortunate that they held up in a holy site. You know, they were given chances to leave, they chose not to surrender.

00:12:29.760 And, you know, there were human shields being used. And as I pointed out, I'm not sure if it was majority Sikh, but I do know there were Sikh commanders in the Indian military who were given the option to opt out of Blue Star, but chose not to, because they saw themselves as Indian and this is anti-Indian. 0.68

00:12:45.760 I mean, is that is, is, is this a correct basic understanding of, of Operation Blue Star, would you say?

00:12:52.760 Well, there were, there were Sikhs all over the place, not only in the army, in the police, there were Sikhs in the, in the civil administration, there were Sikhs in the political sphere.

00:13:04.760 There were Sikhs in the Congress party, there were Sikhs in Akhalis, and there was friction between the moderate Akhali party, which launched the agitation to rally their troops, to get ready for the next election.

00:13:18.760 They had very serious problems with Vindarawala. Vindarawala was forcing them to take more extreme line, and they were not ready to go that far.

00:13:28.760 He wanted them to go almost for separatism, which they were not ready to do.

00:13:34.760 So they were communicating with the government and they were telling the government that there are a lot of credible witnesses who are saying that the Akhali Dal leaders told Indra Gandhi that it's beyond our control.

00:13:47.760 Now she has to, has to do whatever she has to do.

00:13:50.760 So she consulted the people around, which were also Sikhs. The president of India was a Sikh and, and, and the other ministers in our ministry were the Sikhs.

00:14:02.760 So she consulted a lot of people and the analyst, the learned analyst now feel that she was actually late to take the action that she should have taken action very early on.

00:14:14.760 When 40 fortifications were minimum and the weapons were not that many with, with the militants in the golden temple.

00:14:23.760 Then there are some other quarters who believe that some sources from within the government agencies probably provided them weapons.

00:14:33.760 Now that, that, that, that allegation also have some, some credibility and then, then that, that Pakistan was supplying them weapons.

00:14:41.760 Maybe a number of things were true.

00:14:43.760 Like we can't pinpoint only one thing.

00:14:45.760 There were a number of things which, which could be true at the same time.

00:14:48.760 But the, but the basic thing is that Bindranwala and his gang, they were using golden temple as a base, as a fortification to, to, to, to, to kill the people. 0.74

00:15:03.760 And they killed Mr. Atwal, who was, I think the IG of Punjab police.

00:15:08.760 He was a Sikh.

00:15:09.760 He came to the golden temple.

00:15:10.760 And when he was stepping out of the temple, he was shot right at the outer door of, of the golden temple.

00:15:18.760 Uh, and nobody came close to pick his body for four or five hours.

00:15:24.760 That, that, that, that is how much the fear there was of these terrorists.

00:15:29.760 And then there were, but there were other shootings within the temple, uh, complex, uh, between, uh, the faction, which was supporting, uh, the Shromnia Khalidal and Bindranwala.

00:15:41.760 They had very bad blood among, among themselves.

00:15:44.760 And there were some other killings, uh, right, uh, in that area.

00:15:49.760 And the bodies were recovered from the gutter.

00:15:52.760 Uh, so.

00:15:54.760 I, I mean, I will just say, this sounds a lot of like the inter-Calistani gang violence we have going on today, where we might look, you know, you might see them waving all the yellow flags and think there's a united frontier. 0.94

00:16:04.760 But, um, you know, if we really want to, you know, save the lives of Calistani gang members in Canada, we might want to consider cracking down on Calistani gang members. 1.00

00:16:13.760 That's a big theocracy.

00:16:15.760 They're trying to start in a certain sense.

00:16:17.760 Yeah.

00:16:18.760 I guess everyone's trying to fight to be the guy who gets to be the top of the, the fictional theocracy once they started.

00:16:23.760 Yeah.

00:16:24.760 So what, do you want to transition us into Canada?

00:16:26.760 And after one question, I just want to roll it back a little bit.

00:16:29.760 Just going all the way back to 1971, because you're talking about the Pakistani government providing arms and likely money to the Calistani movement.

00:16:39.760 And you were saying it was starting back in 1971 that it was starting to take off faster.

00:16:44.760 It was always kind of an existence rumbling since 47, but then it started increasing in 71.

00:16:49.760 And was it because of the war with between India and Pakistan, because it resulted in the breakaway of Bangladesh from Pakistan that the, the revenge motive of Pakistan was then to say, well, we're going to break up India in response.

00:17:02.760 That is right.

00:17:03.760 That is right.

00:17:04.760 Actually, the very eminent journalist and writer, Tariq Fateh, who's not among us.

00:17:09.760 He was the witness to it.

00:17:11.760 That Mr. Bhutto said that Pakistan will take revenge by creating something like Bangladesh on, on its border, which is, which is Kalistan.

00:17:21.760 So Tariq Fateh reported this, talked about it a lot of times.

00:17:25.760 So he was, he was like eyewitness to it.

00:17:30.760 And, and that was the time actually Pakistan also wanted to, to even eat grass and make a atomic weapon. 0.71

00:17:38.760 So those, those things were going hand in hand to, to, to counter India or, or, or bleed India or, or, or make thousand cuts to bleed India. 0.88

00:17:47.760 The way Tariq Fateh used to say.

00:17:50.760 Yeah.

00:17:51.760 Let's just give a quick, let's just give a quick shout out to the, the departed Tariq Fateh, who is a legend in Canada and India.

00:17:58.760 I will say I've been on the same side of him in an argument, and that's quite a sight to behold.

00:18:02.760 And I've been on the opposite side of him in an argument.

00:18:05.760 And that's also quite a force to be reckoned with.

00:18:08.760 So shout out to Tariq Fateh, who's deeply missed today.

00:18:11.760 Yeah.

00:18:12.760 We are extremely proud that he allowed us to publish a couple of his articles before he passed.

00:18:16.760 So that was amazing.

00:18:17.760 Yeah, that was pretty great.

00:18:20.760 That was pretty great.

00:18:21.760 But I just wanted to move on now.

00:18:22.760 Again, I, hopefully I'm not winding back too much, but I hope for everyone watching today

00:18:27.760 that we're going to keep moving forward in the timeline, but we'll keep going back whenever

00:18:30.760 there's a significant event that's happening.

00:18:32.760 This is like a Christopher Nolan movie.

00:18:34.760 Yeah.

00:18:35.760 Calistan, Calistan by Christopher Nolan.

00:18:37.760 That's what you're getting.

00:18:38.760 Yeah.

00:18:39.760 We'll keep going back in time a little bit here, but it's always to sort of go back to

00:18:43.760 a subject that wouldn't have been useful for us to bring up.

00:18:46.760 So Operation Blue Star happens when, when like, obviously the golden temples being used as a

00:18:52.760 effectively almost mob hangout where they're, you know, picking up the phone and saying, kill

00:18:58.760 these people, kill those people, bomb this train and whatnot. 0.84

00:19:02.760 But right after Blue Star and before Imran Gandhi, the prime minister of India is assassinated, 0.98

00:19:07.760 the World Sikh Organization is founded and has its first meeting in Madison Square Garden

00:19:13.760 in New York City.

00:19:14.760 And maybe, maybe Bahraj, you can maybe bring us through the founding and the motives behind

00:19:20.760 the World Sikh Organization.

00:19:22.760 Well, there was a ex-Indian army officer of major general rank.

00:19:28.760 His last name was Buller.

00:19:31.760 Somehow he came to America and Canada.

00:19:34.760 We don't know, like there are different views of different people.

00:19:39.760 Some people think he came in good faith.

00:19:41.760 He was sent by Bindanwala.

00:19:43.760 Some people said, oh, he was an Indian spy.

00:19:46.760 He wanted to incite violence.

00:19:48.760 There are a lot of stories about him.

00:19:50.760 So he came and he was instrumental meeting different Sikh leaders who were, who were kind

00:19:57.760 of very upset and they wanted to, to go for Khalistan.

00:20:02.760 That is when they called for a big meeting of, at Madison Square Garden.

00:20:07.760 A lot of Sikhs from Canada traveled there and a lot of Americans.

00:20:12.760 It was a big gathering.

00:20:13.760 That is where Ajab Singh Baghdi, who was a later considered suspect in area

00:20:19.760 India bombing in June 1985.

00:20:22.760 He said that we will not take rest until we take heads of 50,000 Hindus.

00:20:30.760 That was the foundation meeting of WSO in USA.

00:20:36.760 But right now this WSO so-called world Sikh organization does not exist in the world or in USA.

00:20:42.760 It is only limited to Canada.

00:20:44.760 Or we can say only Canadian chapter survived.

00:20:47.760 Otherwise it has no existence anywhere.

00:20:49.760 I mean, outside of Canadian television, they're, they're not that, but it's Canadian television and the halls of government.

00:20:56.760 And somehow they became the go-to on issues.

00:20:59.760 You know, good for them bullying their way to the top.

00:21:03.760 And it's true that at that meeting, and this is before Imran Gandhi is dead, is that at the WSO founding meeting, both

00:21:13.760 Bagri as well as members of the audience and other speakers at the event were calling for Imran Gandhi's murder.

00:21:20.760 That is right.

00:21:22.760 That was, that was very widespread.

00:21:24.760 I mean, that was not the only place where they were calling for her murder.

00:21:29.760 At different Gurdwaras, such pieces were made by, by different people.

00:21:34.760 Even in media, there are quotations from different people in, in, in UK and in Canada and in USA, that they will take revenge.

00:21:43.760 They were giving examples from the history, manipulated kind of history that this and that came and insulted the golden temple.

00:21:52.760 And the revenge was taken within 170 odd days or 183 days.

00:21:57.760 The person was killed.

00:21:58.760 They, they, they posted such kind of list of different historical, so-called historical incidents at some Gurdwaras.

00:22:08.760 They, they talked about it in the media also.

00:22:12.760 And then they related to, to Indira Gandhi when she was killed that, oh, she was also killed in the same timeframe of some 183 odd days.

00:22:25.760 So should we, I think let's go into Canada specifically, because Canada seemed to really, uh, poke the bear on this one.

00:22:32.760 Uh, we have, we have a pretty strong Calistani movement, uh, stronger than the Indian Calistani movement.

00:22:39.760 I personally found it very funny.

00:22:41.760 I was watching CBC and the Canadian news is like Calistan TV most of the time.

00:22:46.760 And they did a segment on it.

00:22:48.760 And the first part is Calistan to the max.

00:22:51.760 Um, you know, all these guys are just, you know, activists, human rights activists, no mention of any of the videos that call for violence.

00:22:59.760 And then they go to the Punjab region.

00:23:01.760 They do an expose in India.

00:23:02.760 And then they go to a bunch of Punjabis who are wearing turban saying, please stop with the Calistan. 1.00

00:23:08.760 No more of this Calistan talk.

00:23:10.760 We don't want this coming up again.

00:23:11.760 This is a Canadian thing, you know, leave us alone. 0.89

00:23:14.760 And then they're like, oh, wow, no one wants it.

00:23:16.760 And then they went back to Canada and they're like, well, we're back to supporting Calistan, even though we, we saw evidence that no one really wants it to come back in the Punjab region. 0.70

00:23:25.760 So, um, if you want to, we, if you want to go over, I mean, maybe we could breeze through it, but my, the general understanding is from like 1985 to 1995, that's when the big crackdown was to get rid of the internal Calistani movement.

00:23:38.760 Then it was pretty much dead.

00:23:39.760 And now we're kind of dealing with a foreign Calistani movement, mostly in Canada.

00:23:43.760 picking up in the UK.

00:23:44.760 Some were hearing rumblings in Australia of it, it gaining steam.

00:23:48.760 Um, so yeah, I think that might be a good place to sort of maybe like take it.

00:23:53.760 Maybe we should also mention the air India bombing specifically because.

00:23:56.760 Oh yeah.

00:23:57.760 Yeah.

00:23:58.760 The air India bombing. 0.52

00:23:59.760 Yeah.

00:24:00.760 I think that would be, this is the start to Canada because this is where everything starts to start, start centering around Canada.

00:24:04.760 It seems.

00:24:05.760 Yes.

00:24:06.760 You see what happened after blue star, uh, and Mrs. Gandhi's murder and aftermath where a lot of six were killed.

00:24:14.760 It was a emotional stage.

00:24:15.760 And I do understand that a lot of people were angry who were not fully informed, like the both sides of the story.

00:24:22.760 They were very angry and ordinary people usually are not fully informed what is going on and what the consequences would be.

00:24:29.760 Uh, so I give that benefit of doubt that yes, there was an emotional stage.

00:24:33.760 A lot of people were very angry, but, uh, the communities do come to their senses.

00:24:39.760 They do discuss things openly, what went wrong on their side, on the opposite side, who, who, who was at fault, how much, and how to reconcile.

00:24:50.760 Unfortunately, that day never came in last 40 years in the Sikh community.

00:24:55.760 The Khalistanis never allowed open discussion among Sikhs without fear that let's, let's discuss.

00:25:02.760 Do you find the government at fault at, at what percentage point?

00:25:07.760 And this, the moderate Sikh leadership, what was their role?

00:25:11.760 What was the role of militants and, uh, Vendranwala?

00:25:14.760 What should we do now?

00:25:16.760 And if we, if we go slip this way or that way, what will be the consequences?

00:25:21.760 No such discussion ever allowed in last almost 40 years in the Sikh community.

00:25:27.760 That is the big tragedy of Sikh community. 1.00

00:25:29.760 And let me add, when, when you say Canadian situation, uh, that was very much in the West that nobody can challenge the Khalistanis. 0.99

00:25:36.760 If you challenge the Khalistanis, if you talk anything saying that, look, let's sit back, let's relax. 0.99

00:25:45.760 Whatever happened, happened.

00:25:47.760 It was very painful.

00:25:48.760 Let's see where we want to move forward, how we want to move forward.

00:25:53.760 That person is their enemy.

00:25:55.760 So they started attacking people.

00:25:57.760 Uh, there were a number of attacks.

00:26:00.760 As I said, nuance is the, nuance is the enemy of radicals.

00:26:04.760 And it's often nothing they hate more than a nuanced conversation.

00:26:08.760 Because one thing I'm sure you get it too.

00:26:10.760 And why and I are getting it a lot.

00:26:11.760 Now we get accused of denying genocide and Sikh oppression.

00:26:15.760 And if you're never, not once have I ever denied that there were anti-Sikh riots.

00:26:19.760 I just say they were a result of the Indra Gandhi assassination, which came from operation blue star, which was a result of, you know, an increase of terrorism from the people who are held up inside the golden temple.

00:26:30.760 So it's complicated and I don't think it's a genocide, not saying thousands didn't die.

00:26:35.760 I think it's more like a pogrom.

00:26:37.760 I'm from the Jewish community.

00:26:38.760 We experienced tons of those in Eastern Europe where, you know, you know, violent, deadly riots sweep through your town.

00:26:45.760 It's a horrible thing that happened in 1984 and the riots like no one wanted that.

00:26:50.760 And I think you quite beautifully articulated that.

00:26:53.760 So for never once have we ever denied that there were anti-Sikh riots that happened.

00:26:58.760 But I think you make a very careful point that without the nuance and understanding everything that went into it from all sides,

00:27:06.760 you're never going to come to a position where you can find healing and coexistence.

00:27:12.760 And I think that's a great example of one of the more dangerous elements of the Calistani movement is it is it's quite vicious in the way it attacks anyone, 1.00

00:27:23.760 especially within the Sikh community who tries to explain or embrace this nuance and build bridges,

00:27:31.760 because I mean, a lot of the people reaching out to me and helping me connect to these things is like a lot of Sikhs.

00:27:37.760 Like it really is not a Sikh versus Hindu problem we're kind of dealing with right now.

00:27:42.760 It's it's sort of like a Calistani versus Indian government and with a permissive Canadian attitude type problem.

00:27:49.760 So, you know, I've heard a lot from Sikh supporters when I've talked about this for years.

00:27:54.760 It's a lot more now that like one, thanks for talking about this and they feel like they can't just out of fear.

00:28:02.760 And like it's also the majority opinion is sort of on your side, but it's not what it's being portrayed in the media.

00:28:09.760 I mean, the media would have you believe that you're the fringe and Harjips and Najjar was the majority. 0.80

00:28:16.760 I can only imagine how maddening that is.

00:28:18.760 Well, as far as mainstream media is concerned in Canada, I mean, it became totally useless.

00:28:25.760 It's been taken over by vested interest and and, you know, like CBC and some other institutions.

00:28:33.760 Certainly there are some good, good media persons, reporters among them, but they have confined themselves or limited themselves.

00:28:42.760 Oh, don't speak against minorities. Everything is a minority for them. 0.99

00:28:46.760 This is this kind of minority, that kind of minority, that kind of minority.

00:28:50.760 Don't talk about the minority. Well, always, always curse the majority wherever it is. 1.00

00:28:54.760 I mean, that that does not work and it's unfair.

00:28:57.760 So mainstream media became totally ineffective and unfair and it is supported by the governments.

00:29:04.760 So so more information comes from independent sources and I think independent sources are becoming stronger now.

00:29:13.760 So we will we will hear more about these controversial issues from neutral point of view in the coming years, years and days and months to come.

00:29:23.760 I'm glad you say that. That's why we started the National Telegraph is to talk about things other people don't talk about.

00:29:29.760 Go ahead. Why?

00:29:30.760 Yeah, I was gonna say maybe this is a good moment then to just talk about, well, why has the Calistani movement in Canada been so robust in spite of the Air India bombing?

00:29:41.760 Because if anything, that even in the even in Punjab, there was never a single day casualty rating quite like the Air India bombing was in Canada.

00:29:51.760 Yet in Canada, it seems like it almost got brushed under the rug.

00:29:54.760 So maybe you want to describe what happened with the Air India bombing?

00:29:58.760 Who were the people involved? What like and why it kind of never became that flashpoint to take the issue seriously?

00:30:05.760 Well, a lot of books been written on on Air India, a lot of articles, a lot of talk shows on it.

00:30:13.760 There is no doubt everybody knows that it was done by Talavinder Singh Parmar and his close group.

00:30:20.760 And to date, we have only one person in the reason they are to been convicted by Canadian courts three times related to to Air India or Narita and lying in the court total around maybe 25 or 29 years.

00:30:34.760 And a lot of Khalistanis say that, oh, they trust the Canadian justice system. 0.97

00:30:39.760 They have no trust in Indian system. 0.98

00:30:41.760 They trust the Canadian justice system while Canadian justice system convicted one person who was a baptized citizen.

00:30:49.760 who was a baptized Sikh three times.

00:30:52.760 And John Major Commission have highlighted all the issues surrounding it and the role of Talavinder Singh Parmar was accepted.

00:31:00.760 Even then, Jagmeet Singh, when he became NDP leader, he rejected it.

00:31:05.760 When Terry Molesky forced him like three times to answer, he did not answer.

00:31:10.760 When Canadian media put pressure on and pressure was built within NDP, he came clean on it.

00:31:16.760 But he came clean on it only verbally, just to show.

00:31:22.760 Otherwise, drown in his heart.

00:31:25.760 He stands where he stands.

00:31:27.760 Yeah, I've seen Jagmeet's good answer.

00:31:32.760 I don't believe it.

00:31:33.760 Right?

00:31:34.760 I mean...

00:31:35.760 Even that, he's like fumbling over himself to say it.

00:31:38.760 Yeah, I mean, ask me if blowing up a plane full of innocent people is bad. 1.00

00:31:41.760 I can tell you it's bad on the first try.

00:31:43.760 Yeah, you don't have to say, um, beforehand.

00:31:46.760 Yeah, I don't have to be like...

00:31:48.760 Well, here's the thing.

00:31:49.760 This is where, like, Air India, you know, Sikhs in response to basically the anti-Sikh riots where that's what they claim really.

00:31:58.760 It's just the ongoing violence in a certain sense.

00:32:00.760 They plant a bomb on a plane destined to, like, a plane going from...

00:32:05.760 Mumbai.

00:32:06.760 Was it Montreal or Toronto?

00:32:07.760 I think it's Toronto to London to Mumbai.

00:32:09.760 No, Toronto to Montreal.

00:32:11.760 Toronto to Montreal.

00:32:12.760 Toronto to Montreal.

00:32:13.760 And then to India.

00:32:15.760 Oh, yeah.

00:32:16.760 Toronto to Montreal to London to Mumbai.

00:32:17.760 The other flight from Vancouver to Tokyo where the bomb blew up in baggage handling and killed two baggage workers in Japan.

00:32:25.760 And then, of course, the other bomb was set off over when they were over Ireland.

00:32:30.760 And then it killed every single person on that plane.

00:32:32.760 And to go to the sort of people like Jagmeet Singh who half deny the Air India bombing happened or the people who outright just try and blame it on India.

00:32:43.760 It doesn't make sense, though, because they'll still venerate the people who were the ones who blew up the plane.

00:32:48.760 And they can't tell you why they're important figures if they cut the plane blowing up out of it.

00:32:54.760 Because what else have these individual men done to have their pictures on parade floats when, if anything, they would just be generic community organizers without the violence.

00:33:03.760 So how after in 1985 did it become that they that it never seemed like the Khalistanis were punished? 1.00

00:33:11.760 If anything, people like you were punished for bringing it up.

00:33:15.760 Mr. Ujjal.

00:33:16.760 Yeah.

00:33:17.760 Mr. Ujjal Dosanj was literally beat almost beat to death for opposing the Khalistani movement after the bombing.

00:33:23.760 You see, I would like to make one more point before we get into that.

00:33:31.760 And that is a lot of Khalistanis still tell the young generation that Air India was blown up by government of India agents, that India done it to give bad name to the Sikhs.

00:33:44.760 Right in front of them, they also will say that they trust the Canadian justice system.

00:33:48.760 As I made point before that Inderjee Singh Riyadh, who's a baptized Sikh, he accepted.

00:33:54.760 And there was overwhelming evidence when he was convicted and Rita bombing that he built the initial bomb, which was tried in Burnaby Woods somewhere when ceases agents were following.

00:34:08.760 And then he admitted that Mr. X, a person by which is named Mr. X, because nobody knows the name, was brought by Talginder Singh Paramahar from.

00:34:18.760 From Ontario to BC to his house, who who worked with him to make those bombs, which was later planted on two CPA to be transferred to two Air India flights, one at Narita and one in Toronto.

00:34:33.760 So it is Mr.

00:34:34.760 Riyadh, who is convicted three times by Canadian courts, who is a baptized Sikh, who accepted that Mr. X built those bombs and initial test bomb was built by him. 0.83

00:34:46.760 So those who doubt that governor of India agents blew up the plane, made the bombs, placed the bombs.

00:34:52.760 Why don't they go to Mr.

00:34:53.760 And say, hey, for God's sake, you are a baptized Sikh swear by your your gurus and tell us the truth publicly.

00:35:03.760 Who made the bombs?

00:35:05.760 Let's let's have closer.

00:35:07.760 Yeah, I mean, I call this Schrodinger's terrorism, where you have both they are heroes for blowing up Air India, but also they are being framed by the Indian government to make us look bad.

00:35:20.760 So it's like, you know, is the Calistani in the in the nuclear box alive or dead? 0.90

00:35:25.760 Again, it's my Schrodinger's terrorism is the Calistani. 1.00

00:35:29.760 And even just that it's a stupid crime in a certain sense, even just from a motives perspective, if the Indian government wanted to frame the Calisthenes, they could have just had a fake bomb and said, oh, we found this bomb on a plane. 0.98

00:35:40.760 It was the Calisthenes who did it. 1.00

00:35:42.760 It doesn't make any sense for the Indian government to go to the extent where they're going to not only kill people, but they're going to kill people who are foreign citizens, especially Japanese citizens, a country that that tends to do a lot more trade with India than Canada.

00:35:57.760 That this is just doesn't make it doesn't make any actual logical sense from the Indian government's point of view, especially since most of the operation, most of the issues that they're like, most of the anti-Calistani operations were happening in India.

00:36:10.760 So it doesn't make sense that they would be focusing their attention on issues in Canada to try and set up the Calisthenes. 0.89

00:36:16.760 Well, they make a very stupid point the same way regarding Blue Star. 0.96

00:36:21.760 Sorry to go back back to that point. 0.99

00:36:23.760 No, it's perfect.

00:36:24.760 They say the governor of India intentionally attacked the Golden Temple to teach the Sikhs a final lesson to break the backbone of the Sikhs.

00:36:37.760 So while if the government of India really wanted to destroy Golden Temple, there was no need to send army and have, according to the government, around 100 killed and maybe several hundred soldiers wounded and take about 48 or more hours to control the situation.

00:36:58.760 They could have parked a few habitisers a couple of miles away and just bumped it to pieces.

00:37:04.760 But that was not the case.

00:37:06.760 That was not the intention of the government. 0.99

00:37:08.760 I mean, it could be a stupid decision of the government or a wrong way of doing it. 0.83

00:37:13.760 We can criticize all that, but that was not the intention. 0.97

00:37:16.760 But the Calisthenes pretend to break the backbone of the Sikhs government conducted that operation to destroy the Golden Temple. 0.96

00:37:24.760 Similar way they claim that the governor of India to defame the Sikhs caused or created this bombing of India. 0.97

00:37:32.760 So these are very stupid points and they are kind of putting their foot in two different votes at the same time. 0.96

00:37:39.760 It's a very, very serious double standard, and it has not been checkmated within the community because there is no free discussion within the community. 0.99

00:37:48.760 There cannot be a talk show on a radio or TV show live where people can call and make points in a very civilized way to convey their message, what they feel about it.

00:37:59.760 Not even in any city, anywhere in the world where Sikh diaspora is only threats, only violence, only their line is the final line. 1.00

00:38:10.760 You cannot say anything which goes against them publicly without fear and without threat of some sort of reprisers.

00:38:20.760 And that is a very sad part.

00:38:22.760 That's sad.

00:38:23.760 I think that also plays a very big role in how they've managed to grow in the West.

00:38:26.760 I mean, I know I said I take my knowledge out of it, but I mean, would you say that, one, the mishandling of the Air India trial, the lack of seriousness,

00:38:37.760 but like, do you think the fact that Western governments have kind of given the Calistanis free reign to threaten and intimidate their asses has sort of helped them grow and become, you know, the political force they are today?

00:38:50.760 Maybe to add on to that too, like, because I think this would be a good, like stapled on point, is that in the Air India trials, because everyone was effectively acquitted,

00:39:01.760 except for the one bomb plotter that because many people were effectively murdered right before the trial happened and had their witness testimonies thrown out, they, the Canadian government or the Canadian system, not that they're, they're doing this actively, like they're trying to enable them.

00:39:17.760 But by, but the system acting the way it did in that trial effectively gave the green light towards Calistanis using violence to promote their agenda because they were, they were. 0.91

00:39:27.760 I would say a tacit endorsement, like a tacit endorsement would be the, yeah, it's like some, yeah, it's like, it's like this, it's an irregular endorsement.

00:39:37.760 It's not that anyone in the government is specifically cool with it, but the, the Calistanis blow a plane and then they effectively, basically all of them get away with it by murdering people is, you know, 1.00

00:39:46.760 one of the greatest endorsements of their violent activities in the country.

00:39:51.760 Now that investigation was not on track.

00:39:55.760 It was derailed from the very beginning.

00:39:57.760 I'll, I'll, I'll give you, you, you are mentioning the murder of Tara Singh here, the, the, the editor of Indo-Canadian who was supposed to testify in the court and he was,

00:40:05.760 he was attacked early on and then he was crippled and then he was murdered before the Air India, India trial.

00:40:10.760 That was a very sad part, but let me tell, give you one more example, how derailed this investigation was and how the Canadian security forces, RCMP or CSIS or other investigative agencies had no clue how to proceed with it.

00:40:26.760 This is, I'm disclosing this for the first time.

00:40:29.760 When I was attacked in September of 85, when I recovered after a couple of weeks in the hospital, I, I, I had no immediate family member in Canada.

00:40:39.760 So one of my friends took me to his house.

00:40:42.760 So I was staying with him.

00:40:43.760 He was taking care of me.

00:40:44.760 I still have like a lot of injuries to recuperate and so on.

00:40:49.760 One RCMP officer called him because they knew that I was staying my, with my friend and they, they said they want to come and come and meet me.

00:40:57.760 So this guy came and meet me.

00:40:59.760 I thought he will come and, you know, ask me what kind of, who do I suspect?

00:41:04.760 What took place, you know, the, the, the usual way the police wants to gather the information.

00:41:09.760 This guy, when he started hello and few, few, few, uh, kind of, uh, nice things.

00:41:16.760 And then, then he looked at me and he said, tell me, who bombed their India?

00:41:23.760 I said, how do I know?

00:41:25.760 He said, you know, you know, you know, what's the role of government India?

00:41:30.760 I said, how do I know?

00:41:31.760 I just came from the hospital.

00:41:34.760 I'm a simple, uh, worker, working class man.

00:41:40.760 I have no interaction.

00:41:42.760 I, up to that point, I had no interaction even with any Indian diplomat because I was very young at that point.

00:41:48.760 Certainly when I got into the media later on, I, I had interaction with, with the diplomats.

00:41:53.760 And, uh, uh, I had that kind of relationship, uh, on and off, uh, because we have to deal with the, uh, in media capacity with, with everyone.

00:42:04.760 But at that point I was very young and I had no interaction with anybody.

00:42:08.760 And this RCMP officer wanted to investigate air India bombing from me who was victim of violence.

00:42:14.760 I, I mean, if you want a masterclass in incompetence, um, look into everything surrounding the air India bombing and inquiry.

00:42:25.760 And, you know, we had these Calistanis being monitored. 0.69

00:42:28.760 Uh, we knew there were threats and they were speaking Punjabi.

00:42:31.760 We didn't get a Punjabi translator.

00:42:32.760 So like, we couldn't like, if we, they got a translator, they would have learned something about it, but they were just too lazy to do that. 0.97

00:42:39.760 You know, asking you if you knew responsibly or India bombing, I mean, yeah, that, that, that was not the end of stupidity of the, of the, of the security forces. 0.96

00:42:50.760 Let me add one more thing. 0.99

00:42:51.760 Oh, keep going.

00:42:52.760 Keep going.

00:42:53.760 After I, I recovered, uh, somebody from the community who knows, uh, things.

00:42:59.760 He, he, he, he told me that you can apply for a criminal compensation because you are, you have suffered very, very severely and, uh, you have not recovered.

00:43:08.760 I, I gone through a number of surgeries even after a year.

00:43:11.760 So I, I checked with somebody who knew the law and the person said, yes, you can file a claim and they might compensate you maybe four or $5,000 because you suffered a criminal attack.

00:43:22.760 Uh, although nobody was caught.

00:43:24.760 Uh, so I, I hired a lawyer and he, he said, yes, I'll file this.

00:43:29.760 It's very easy.

00:43:30.760 So he filed a case, uh, when, when the, the, the, there's a small hearing for that, uh, in order to get criminal compensation.

00:43:38.760 The Metro police took a stand that I should not be granted a criminal, criminal compensation because I did not cooperate with them.

00:43:45.760 And it is on record.

00:43:49.760 You didn't point the finger at someone that you couldn't, that you had no ability to point at.

00:43:54.760 That.

00:43:55.760 Oh my God.

00:43:56.760 I, I, I'm sorry about our, uh, the, oh my.

00:43:59.760 Yeah.

00:44:00.760 I mean, so you see on, on, on one side when Khalistan is conspired for violence, they, they committed violence.

00:44:06.760 Uh, they, they were never arrested or they were never convicted on the other side.

00:44:10.760 Uh, simple citizens suffering from their violence.

00:44:14.760 They, they, they, they are questioned like anything.

00:44:16.760 They are challenged like any, anything, every step of the way.

00:44:19.760 How can you, how can you dig, uh, the criminals?

00:44:23.760 How can you punish the criminals when you are an investigative agencies have, have different eye?

00:44:28.760 Uh, they have different site.

00:44:30.760 They, they, they, they're, they're targeting different people.

00:44:33.760 Uh, they don't have a clue.

00:44:35.760 They don't have a clue how to proceed.

00:44:37.760 The only thing I can kind of philosophize in the mentality here.

00:44:40.760 I mean, it's not good, but this to me might sound like, you know, it could be monumental incompetence.

00:44:46.760 And there's some of that going on, but I think this is like a wider problem that we're seeing now.

00:44:50.760 But I think it might've been easier of like police and security agencies.

00:44:56.760 They, they probably, they're less likely to investigate and go after people who have the power to sort of push back.

00:45:02.760 So they kind of want to pick easy targets, like, you know, pick people off off the street who are doing something wrong.

00:45:08.760 Just an easy win.

00:45:09.760 So it's a lot easier to bully someone like you.

00:45:12.760 Whereas it's difficult.

00:45:14.760 It's hard.

00:45:15.760 There might be blowback.

00:45:16.760 They might face something if they're going into these, you know, hardline Calistanis and really trying to track the windows from ours. 0.81

00:45:25.760 Like, uh, like actual network.

00:45:27.760 Right.

00:45:28.760 That might bring bull back.

00:45:29.760 That might be hard.

00:45:30.760 Like you might make enemies.

00:45:31.760 That's too much paperwork.

00:45:33.760 So it might just be easier to, you know, say I did something.

00:45:37.760 I did something.

00:45:38.760 I talked to this guy.

00:45:39.760 I asked him, did he know who it was?

00:45:40.760 He said, no, not my fault.

00:45:42.760 It's his fault.

00:45:43.760 Right.

00:45:44.760 Like maybe there's some of that going on.

00:45:46.760 I mean, I, I just can't, I can't even fathom this level of incompetence. 0.99

00:45:49.760 And, and, and I mean, I, I've had lazy days where I just want to sit there and watch TV, but I, I, I've never been this bad to, to do something that's monumentally incompetent, stupid and lazy. 0.99

00:46:00.760 But I mean, that's the story of Air India in Canada. 0.93

00:46:03.760 But we must give credit to Calistanis that how effectively they fooled the system, how effectively they created this victim mentality in young Sikhs who are born overseas after blue stars. 1.00

00:46:18.760 How they done it.

00:46:21.760 This is a magic.

00:46:22.760 They have performed.

00:46:24.760 Nothing will come out of it.

00:46:25.760 Like, Calistan is not going to come out of this, but, but the credit must go to them that they adopted a strategy, which worked to brainwash the young Sikhs overseas. 1.00

00:46:38.760 What I will say here, can I, can I tip it on this?

00:46:40.760 Yeah, sure.

00:46:41.760 I mean, my thing is that we'll go back to why I I've seen this in like, I, I, I think they use like sort of the, the radical posting.

00:46:47.760 The radical postmodern point of view that was, that was, that was surging up through academia.

00:46:51.760 Like the, you know, when Jordan Peterson says neo-Marxist postmodern nonsense, right?

00:46:56.760 It's sort of the intersectional thing we have now, but this was an earlier version of it where you have oppressed and oppressors and this very simple narrative that we sell to people, right?

00:47:06.760 You know, the old communist bourgeoisie and the proletariat, then the 1960s, the communists realized that they don't like working class people.

00:47:13.760 So, and working class people didn't like them.

00:47:15.760 So they switched to black and white.

00:47:17.760 Right.

00:47:18.760 And I've seen the Calistanis sort of adopt this general Western eyes, neo-communist behavior where you say, you know, there's oppressed, it's white and black. 0.77

00:47:26.760 And they've sort of taken the, well, Hindu, Hindus are, are, are this, are the oppressors where the oppressed and sort of taken this narrative, given it a little Calistani twist and, and, and go, because I think we have this narrative of victimhood is very prevalent in the modern West.

00:47:43.760 West, less so in the 1980s, but a lot more so now.

00:47:47.760 What do you, do you, have you seen any, we're going to wipe, but I would ask, have you seen any merging between, let's say, Calistani ideology and like the, the. 0.73

00:47:56.760 Just leftist ideology in general.

00:47:58.760 Yeah.

00:47:59.760 Well, what I, what I remember is the organizations like WSO in the beginning, you know, in 1985, they were openly discussing and saying that, oh, we should learn from the Jews.

00:48:12.760 How they organized themselves, how they, they created their lobby.

00:48:17.760 And certainly they followed some of the clues from the Jewish community, but they don't realize that Jewish community was the real victim. 0.99

00:48:25.760 Of, of genocide and under Nazis, but they created a fake kind of narrative.

00:48:33.760 Uh, and honestly, if you put, uh, those two incidents of blue star and, uh, after Mrs. Gandhi's murder, whatever happened, you, you put those two things aside, say they never took place.

00:48:45.760 Mm hmm.

00:48:46.760 A six in India.

00:48:47.760 It's a very pampered community.

00:48:49.760 It's a very pampered, very trusted.

00:48:52.760 Everywhere in, in army and police and civil administration, they were the most trusted.

00:49:00.760 And the miracle is even after the, the, the bodyguards who were supposed to protect the prime minister, they murdered the prime minister.

00:49:09.760 Still.

00:49:10.760 The respect of the six, uh, kind of was reinstated, uh, very quickly after that, within, within a decade, they reached the same level.

00:49:21.760 After that, uh, a sick became prime minister, uh, more than two, six became chief of the army staff, chief of the air force, a number of state police's, uh, heads were six at different points.

00:49:36.760 So six, uh, I mean, the sick prestige recovered very fast in India, even after such a serious incident, uh, and the credit goes to Indian democracy and, and very solid relationship. 0.94

00:49:50.760 With which Hindus and six have, I mean, these two communities were not separate, uh, in my childhood.

00:49:56.760 They were considered the same.

00:49:57.760 Uh, and if I, if I go to the historical perspective, uh, of the Mughal period, at least there are two examples that a famous Mughal King Akbar, when he visited Punjab, uh, in, in his memoirs or, or whoever was writing his activities of the day, uh, which, uh, which is like.

00:50:19.760 Uh, which is like the daily happenings, uh, noted in it, which is translated in English available that, that the King went to Punjab near such and such town and met.

00:50:32.760 The Hindu guru.

00:50:33.760 The Hindu guru.

00:50:34.760 And it was a Sikh guru whom he met and, and he wrote a Hindu guru.

00:50:42.760 So that is how the Sikhs were viewed.

00:50:44.760 And then after that, uh, the fifth Sikh guru was persecuted by, uh, by, by, by the ruling class of the time.

00:50:52.760 And the King was Jahangir who was third from Akbar and his memoir say that he came across information that a Brahman guru, which is like a class within, within Hindus.

00:51:08.760 The chief class, a Brahman guru has opened a shop of, of lies. 1.00

00:51:15.760 And I have told the governor of Punjab to shut it down.

00:51:18.760 So, so again, the King, a Mughal King feels that, that Sikh guru was Brahman guru. 0.56

00:51:25.760 Just, just for, just for our, our people who are not into Indian history, the Mughals were not, um, Hindu, they were Muslim.

00:51:32.760 So this was the Islamic empire.

00:51:34.760 That's right.

00:51:35.760 Right.

00:51:36.760 So, so just, so when, if you're thinking what the Hindus were saying this, no, this is when there was Islamic rulership and this is how they viewed Hindus and Sikhs.

00:51:42.760 So just, just for the beginners, uh, out there.

00:51:45.760 Yeah.

00:51:46.760 Um, no, that's good.

00:51:48.760 No, that's good.

00:51:49.760 So my point is that both communities were not viewed as separate.

00:51:52.760 They were very much intermingled.

00:51:54.760 There were intermarriages to date.

00:51:57.760 There are, I mean, these, I mean, today, I mean, when there's a couple of Hindu organizations that I've worked with and, and then I've got in contact with me now.

00:52:05.760 Like there's Sikh member, like there was a Sikh member of a Hindu organization who, who reached out to me to ask me to, to, to do something.

00:52:12.760 I'm like, I mean, that's par for the course in my, in my view.

00:52:16.760 Like, I know they're two separate religions and, you know, I know there's differences, but I'm saying when, you know, when it comes down to the communities, um, the Calistanis will have you believe that there's this massive rift between Sikhs and Hindus.

00:52:30.760 And then if you really kind of get into the Sikh community and the Hindu community that are not Calistani aligned, there is, uh, it's, it's about as minimal of a rift as you can get between two different religious groups.

00:52:43.760 Um, so, I mean, that, that's the reality that I think a lot of people should know about is, and I think, I think it's important that people know that, you know, there, there are a lot of Sikhs who have been actively in the fight against this in Canada and trying to help who get really angry and upset when they see, you know, these radical goudoirs talk about violence and stuff in their name.

00:53:04.760 And, and a lot of them will, you know, step up and, and, and try and be on the other side.

00:53:08.760 They just don't get that much attention from the media, um, for whatever reason.

00:53:12.760 Maybe, uh, maybe I can move on to that other question I had, cause I think this will bring us to the modern day in the process of it.

00:53:19.760 So this is probably, you could, it'll probably be a few questions wrapped up into one.

00:53:24.760 So in 85 and the years after that, you and, uh, you and you are effectively like, you know, literally almost killed by the Calistanis. 0.97

00:53:33.760 Nothing really seems to happen.

00:53:34.760 And I assume that it would be right to say that there's not a lot of Sikhs speaking up, not because there's constant violence from the Calistanis, but they've made it very clear that they will, they will go after anyone who speaks up. 1.00

00:53:47.760 So that's probably why most of the Sikh community doesn't say anything, even though the Calistanis are only like 1% of the population.

00:53:54.760 Uh, but the thing I want to move on to that, that's probably a side point.

00:53:57.760 It's a little bit more basic, but the reason why the police don't take you seriously.

00:54:01.760 And maybe the reason why politicians don't take Sikhs like you seriously, does it have to do with almost a sort of certain type of exoticism?

00:54:09.760 Because like the point that Tariq Fatah had made in the past, he says that a lot of politicians and government officials get dazzled kind of by the idea that you have this Sikh man with a very large beard and a big turban.

00:54:21.760 And he is a Calistani and he comes up and he says, I represent the community.

00:54:25.760 You should talk to me if you want to know what Sikh people think.

00:54:28.760 And that's how almost through the sense of exoticism that politicians are like, Oh, it's such a strange community.

00:54:34.760 This man must understand it.

00:54:35.760 And that's how they end up getting power.

00:54:37.760 Even though you without the turban is a far more representative of the average Sikh in Canada.

00:54:43.760 Is that kind of how it's been working and how they've been able to stay relevant in Canada?

00:54:47.760 Is that they are unfairly seen as representatives?

00:54:50.760 Well, I think in the beginning, there might be some politicians who felt that, you know, the person with the big turban and big beard is a Sikh and he's a Khalistani.

00:55:03.760 But those days are gone long ago.

00:55:05.760 I think the politicians of the day in Canada and other Western countries, they are very opportunistic.

00:55:11.760 They are using this movement for their own benefit, for votes and for notes.

00:55:18.760 So when they want nominations from certain areas in the beginning, that's how it started.

00:55:25.760 The Canadian politicians, all of a sudden, when they when they found that the Khalistanis are leading the community and Khalistanis became active in Canadian policy,

00:55:35.760 they started picking sides with one candidate or the other for nomination and liberal party and other party, mainly liberal in the beginning and NDP and then conservatives.

00:55:45.760 So whoever they will they will support will win because they can they can hire instant members.

00:55:51.760 And we had media reports from B.C. and from Ontario, where one family was member of the riding association of a liberal party and also member of riding association of NDP party.

00:56:04.760 And somebody was paying the fee as the same person was paying the fee.

00:56:08.760 It was hired members.

00:56:09.760 They did not even know which for which party they were recruited, for which party or which candidate they are being taken for the nomination.

00:56:17.760 They will simply take the name they've been told.

00:56:20.760 So that is how the politicians started using them.

00:56:23.760 So the Khalistanis started raising funds for them.

00:56:26.760 And over the years, the community got into business.

00:56:30.760 They they make big business houses, medium sized business houses.

00:56:36.760 They could afford to get funds and more people came.

00:56:40.760 The immigration multiplied.

00:56:42.760 So the capacity to influence the politician increased.

00:56:45.760 I will give you one example.

00:56:47.760 If you go five, six years back and check National Post, there was a liberal MP from Brampton East.

00:56:53.760 Raj Garhwal.

00:56:54.760 Raj Garhwal.

00:56:55.760 Raj Garhwal.

00:56:56.760 I was going to bring this one up.

00:56:57.760 You beat me to it.

00:56:58.760 In one instance, in one fundraising, he raised over.

00:57:03.760 Six million.

00:57:04.760 Six million.

00:57:05.760 Yeah.

00:57:06.760 A lot of, a lot of.

00:57:07.760 I remember the story.

00:57:08.760 Over a quarter million.

00:57:09.760 Even prime minister could not do it.

00:57:11.760 How it happened.

00:57:12.760 How it happened.

00:57:13.760 Oh, so it might have been a private fundraising.

00:57:15.760 There's a six million.

00:57:16.760 Raj Garhwal got caught in a scandal, a gambling scandal.

00:57:19.760 No, that we know.

00:57:20.760 But I'm talking about his fundraising capacity.

00:57:23.760 Okay.

00:57:24.760 There was a National Post report.

00:57:27.760 And I'm aware because it was reported.

00:57:29.760 It was reported in Punjabi press that, oh, Raj Garhwal had a big, big fundraising dinner.

00:57:35.760 And so many thousand or so guests showed up and funds were raised in the range of quarter

00:57:42.760 million or more.

00:57:43.760 And then it slipped out to the mainstream.

00:57:46.760 And when National Post heard about it, it was shocking that one MP, basic MP of liberal

00:57:53.760 party can raise so, so much fund in one shot, which even PM can't do it.

00:57:59.760 Yeah.

00:58:00.760 That's, there's another part of that.

00:58:01.760 So after he raises the funds, he gets caught in a gambling scandal.

00:58:04.760 That's right.

00:58:05.760 Yeah.

00:58:06.760 So we find out he's $6 million in debt and that you can't have that as a politician in

00:58:11.760 a country, a politician who has millions of dollars of debt can be, you know, paid to

00:58:15.760 do something in the interest of your enemy.

00:58:18.760 Right.

00:58:19.760 It's a, it's a national security risk to have someone that deep in gambling debt.

00:58:22.760 So that became a scandal.

00:58:24.760 And then like two days later, it was $6 million of debt.

00:58:28.760 It, they tried to spin it that, oh, well, it's actually taken care of.

00:58:31.760 It's no longer, um, community came together and got rid of the debt.

00:58:36.760 So six mil, like the community, $6 million, this when a day or so.

00:58:41.760 They had a bake sale, Daniel.

00:58:43.760 For like, yeah, a bake sale for my gambling debts.

00:58:46.760 He could get $6 million.

00:58:48.760 Like, hello, red flag.

00:58:50.760 Um, uh, you know, I, I remember right waving a red flag pretty, uh, hard during, during that

00:58:57.760 whole thing.

00:58:58.760 But yeah, I think, yeah, this is a big problem where we, we need to talk about how does money

00:59:02.760 get into our politics?

00:59:03.760 What's the screening, you know, politicians who make Faustian bargains for, uh, just to get

00:59:08.760 their foot in the door, end up becoming beholden to different, um, ideological groups.

00:59:13.760 Well, I think here's a good thing to bring up too.

00:59:15.760 Like I, would you say that the major issue when it comes to Kalistani influence in politics,

00:59:21.760 obviously because they don't represent most of the community, are they tend to be more concentrated

00:59:26.760 in nomination races and they're not really as much of a general election force?

00:59:31.760 No, no.

00:59:32.760 They started with nominating others.

00:59:35.760 And then they started seeking nomination themselves for, for their children.

00:59:39.760 So that was the first stepping stone to learn, to influence other politicians.

00:59:44.760 Then this, they decided that, okay, why, why can't we run?

00:59:49.760 So slowly, uh, the so-called mainstream politician of old days, they, they started vacating seats

00:59:56.760 for them.

00:59:57.760 They will move, move, move further away somewhere where they, where they can go.

01:00:01.760 I can give you one example.

01:00:02.760 Kyle Siebek.

01:00:03.760 He was MP from Brampton.

01:00:05.760 Uh, he lost, uh, he lost.

01:00:08.760 And he, he felt that look in Brampton, he cannot, cannot succeed because of, uh, this

01:00:14.760 big lobby of, uh, Khalistanis and so on.

01:00:17.760 So he, he moved to a, uh, outer riding of Caledon and some other town, I think the front

01:00:23.760 area and, and he got elected from there, uh, once.

01:00:26.760 So he vacated this and there are other politicians.

01:00:29.760 They, they will, they will leave.

01:00:31.760 First they will seek their help, get nominated, become MP.

01:00:36.760 And then the pressure builds up.

01:00:39.760 So the Khalistanis will move them out and take, take over. 1.00

01:00:42.760 Uh, and then, then another phase started.

01:00:45.760 And that phase was to brainwash the Canadian born youth. 0.86

01:00:51.760 I call it brainwash.

01:00:53.760 They will start as, uh, as, as weekend schooling in, in sick temples.

01:00:59.760 Uh, we are teaching them Punjabi.

01:01:01.760 We are teaching them religion, but basically on name of those two, they are indoctrinating 0.97

01:01:06.760 them, uh, for Khalistan.

01:01:09.760 And those kids, uh, who gone through that process, they all ended up either in politics or in

01:01:19.760 bureaucracy or in police forces or in the offices of MPs, mayors, premiers, uh, provincial ministers,

01:01:29.760 federal ministers, federal ministers, and PMO.

01:01:32.760 I, I know, I know of a friend that I won't say, but I know of a very prominent liberal

01:01:36.760 cabinet minister and, uh, his chief of staff.

01:01:40.760 I know a childhood friend of his chief of staff.

01:01:42.760 And he tells me, yeah.

01:01:43.760 Or like, he not tried to, but I knew him in high school.

01:01:45.760 Like, yeah, that guy's an open air India denier.

01:01:47.760 Like, he's saying, telling like, yeah, there's, there's, there's a liberal who's chief of staff,

01:01:52.760 high ranking, doesn't believe, um, that, uh, Calisthenes took down the plane.

01:01:58.760 He, he's, he full on Indian government did it.

01:02:01.760 Um, you know, like, hold on.

01:02:04.760 Maybe, maybe it's not a good question here.

01:02:05.760 So like the problem is, is the up and coming youth.

01:02:08.760 It's that the Calistanes might only represent 1% of the entire community, but that 1% is more 1.00

01:02:15.760 heavily concentrated in that like 15 to 30 year old crowd now.

01:02:20.760 And those people, because their ideology motivates them to try and get control over the halls of 0.97

01:02:26.760 power in Canada, a lot of them are kind of ideologically driven towards bureaucratic jobs.

01:02:31.760 And like, you know, politics and police and military and stuff like that.

01:02:36.760 Well, that is right.

01:02:37.760 Many Calistanes who were in, in Gurdwara's, uh, managements, they, they, they, they saw it, uh,

01:02:44.760 uh, as opportunity when, uh, when the deep sink bass, he became, uh, MP and later minister.

01:02:52.760 And, uh, lot of, lot of them thought that, uh, oh, if, uh, his father was in WSO.

01:02:58.760 His father was financier of WSO.

01:03:00.760 Uh, he was certainly WSO was behind him to get, get, get him nominated, uh, as liberal candidate.

01:03:09.760 So others thought if the deep can become, uh, MP and minister, their, their son or daughter can do the same.

01:03:15.760 And they did the same.

01:03:16.760 Raj Garewal came from the same, uh, same setup.

01:03:20.760 Ruby Sohota came from the same setup.

01:03:22.760 And there are others like, uh, we, we can name about, uh, more than a dozen or so who came from the same setup.

01:03:29.760 Uh, and, and they have big influence, uh, on Canadian politicians.

01:03:34.760 And now, uh, Jigmeet came from the same setup. 0.93

01:03:37.760 Like, like he was in sick activist network.

01:03:39.760 All of a sudden they made up a mind.

01:03:41.760 They became closer to Jack Layton.

01:03:43.760 After his death, they thought, oh, why can't Jigmeet run? 1.00

01:03:46.760 Uh, once he became MPP, why can't Jigmeet run? 0.73

01:03:50.760 They manipulated the, the, the, the, the membership.

01:03:55.760 Uh, most of his membership was, uh, from the, from the towns like Surrey and Hampton and Malton where six live.

01:04:01.760 And he became NDP leader.

01:04:03.760 They, they virtually took over NDP.

01:04:05.760 It's because they only do the one member, one vote thing.

01:04:07.760 It has nothing to do with the riding point system.

01:04:10.760 Oh, no, no, nothing to do with the, I think, riding point system.

01:04:13.760 And, and I know, like I have memory.

01:04:15.760 I was, uh, I was in media.

01:04:17.760 I was publishing a paper and I, I used to talk to the people and, and they, they, they, they set up collection centers.

01:04:23.760 Like they will make members and then they will say, okay, um, uh, Balraj, you are responsible for so-and-so area or 10 or 15 families.

01:04:32.760 Go correct, collect their ballots.

01:04:34.760 Or they will ask the members to drop their ballot sets at certain point near, near their home.

01:04:38.760 And those ballots will be send it, send it to the central registry of, uh, of NDP.

01:04:43.760 Like first the, the, the registration of members and then the voting, then the voting.

01:04:49.760 Yeah, because I'm, I'm, I'm looking at the numbers now and I just want to bring this up.

01:04:52.760 It's so sketchy that in, uh, 20, yeah, in 2017, during the leadership, the last poll of actual party members had Jagmeet winning, but he was winning with 38.2% of the vote.

01:05:04.760 And Charlie Angus was behind with 29.4. Then you have Nicky Ashton with 17 and Guy Caron with 14.

01:05:10.760 And then the real results were 53 Jagmeet, 19 Angus, 17 Ashton and 9.4 Caron.

01:05:16.760 And it's like, that's, that's a little bit of a polling error if you are actually pulling this right.

01:05:21.760 But my thought is that you probably don't have a lot of people who are kind of being pressured into buying a membership or being told that they have to buy a membership.

01:05:29.760 They're not picking up the phone and answering these polls. So it's effectively this concentrated group in a few cities all voting and none, none of the people interested enough to even take a, take a phone poll about who they're supporting.

01:05:40.760 Well, in the community, it was open secret. What, what is, what is going on? Uh, and then it was discussed in the mainstream media too, up to some extent, but he, he, he won the election and he became the leader.

01:05:52.760 Now, now he's keeping, uh, Trudeau in power, uh, for as long as both of them want, uh, I mean, I'm not, now it is not limited to liberals and NDP.

01:06:04.760 It has also gone to the conservatives.

01:06:06.760 Like there, there, there, there, there is a Khalistani lobby within, within the conservative party, within, within, uh, Pierre Polyav's, uh, caucus within, within his shadow cabinet.

01:06:15.760 There is a, there is a Khalistani lobby, uh, although it is much weaker, uh, when, when we look at, uh, uh, liberal and NDP, but it is there.

01:06:23.760 And, uh, I think its strength is going to increase in the next election. So Canada has to be very, very careful which way the things are going.

01:06:32.760 Uh, if they are looking at international relations, especially relations with India, which, uh, which has a lot of influence on the world stage, uh, then Canadian politics, the ground realities indicate something, something that it is not going to work out with that in Canada and India.

01:06:48.760 Yeah. You have, you made a very good point. And why didn't I always talk about like, you know, foreign policy is more important than people give it credit for.

01:06:55.760 Like we all want to ignore it. You know, yes, healthcare and, and, and economy are very important education, but if you let these problems fester, they will eventually create bigger problems.

01:07:04.760 And you're seeing it now. Like if we just want to be like, Oh, Kalistan, why do I care?

01:07:09.760 But if they get into every single political party, this is a movement that openly advocates for violent balkanization of an ally.

01:07:17.760 Countries don't like that. Right. We would not like it if, if Brazil was harboring elements of the FLQ, who periodically assassinated Canadian diplomats there.

01:07:28.760 Um, we're throwing funds into Quebec to, to increase violence. And there was violence on the Ontario Quebec border every now and then.

01:07:36.760 It would really hurt our relations with Brazil. Um, and we would, yeah, we would be quite oppositional.

01:07:42.760 Uh, you know, we're just a country of 40 million, but now think of that example, where the Brazil were Canada and India has 1.5 billion people, an emerging economy.

01:07:51.760 That's only going to get stronger. And are they just like, we're, we're, it's not out of the, if Polly have wins and then goes the same route and gives into the Kalistanis. 0.99

01:08:02.760 And then the signal is there's no political party in Canada that's going to do anything about the Kalistanis. 0.89

01:08:06.760 We risk India just saying, okay, blockade it. We don't need any trade. Like we don't need them. Might as well. 1.00

01:08:11.760 Like we're literally making, we're, we're risking India saying we're going to make an example of Canada of how, if we want to actively try and like undermine a country or.

01:08:24.760 Withhold trade or pull the plug, we can survive it and they can't. So pay attention world. Like we run the risk of being an being made example of, which is why I'm going ballistic right now on television.

01:08:37.760 And anyone who lets me talk is I want to avoid this. Like I get the, oh, you're anti Canada because you don't like, no, I just, I see.

01:08:46.760 I can kind of see, I've seen the Kalistani movement build up here. I know what our government is like.

01:08:52.760 And I understand the geopolitical concerns of another country. And I, I, you know, I, I have some ability with some foresight to see an incoming train wreck.

01:09:02.760 And I, I'm trying to, you know, switch the lever as hard as I can to, you know, make the trains go on opposite tracks here to avoid collision.

01:09:10.760 But the way we're going is we, we run the risk of being made an example of by a country that has more power and leverage than we do.

01:09:18.760 And that's not going to be good. So this is why I'm trying to get us to sort of clean up the Kalistani issue, because it's not just, oh, brown people are fighting. 0.99

01:09:27.760 Who cares? It's, it's good.

01:09:30.760 And that's what I meant about the exotic, the media tends to cover when Sikhs will go up and break up an Hindu parade and attack other Sikhs.

01:09:37.760 It's like, oh, this is so complicated. It's people from a different region of the world fighting.

01:09:42.760 We can't understand what's going on. And then it almost never gets investigated as if it's just some, you know, random happening that you're supposed to expect in this community.

01:09:49.760 And it's not just a specific tiny group of agitators.

01:09:53.760 You know, looking at the ground realities for last four or five years, I've been stating this, that Canada and India relations cannot stay friendly for very long time to come.

01:10:06.760 Because there is a very strong anti-India lobby and it is very widespread.

01:10:12.760 It's not like only in the Liberal Party, as I stated before, NDP and conservatives are also part of it.

01:10:18.760 It's an economic institution.

01:10:20.760 To a different degree.

01:10:21.760 In universities.

01:10:22.760 But it starts from civic level. It starts from civic level. It goes to the provincial level and it goes all the way to the federal level, to the PMO, all three levels.

01:10:33.760 Like when, when, when we talk about Indian interference, I don't see where Indian interference is.

01:10:38.760 A couple of years ago when the things came to fore that Chinese interference, it was WSO who created, oh, there is also Indian interference which should be investigated.

01:10:49.760 If you see the interference, it's the Canadian interference in Indian affairs constantly for almost four decades.

01:10:56.760 And it is from, it is from three, three levels of, of the government.

01:11:01.760 Uh, the, the terrorism, terrorist plots are planned in here, executed in India.

01:11:06.760 In India is only one example.

01:11:07.760 I mean, there are, there are, there are many, I'm sure Daniel, you, you had a chance to review.

01:11:12.760 I sent you a scan of a magazine.

01:11:15.760 Yeah.

01:11:16.760 From, from, from a magazine from Canada.

01:11:18.760 Yeah.

01:11:19.760 You know, I mean, I'm used to reading Kalistani nonsense. 1.00

01:11:21.760 It was pure Kalistani nonsense. 1.00

01:11:22.760 And then I, you, you told me, yeah, that's, that's, that's from a, it was in Brampton. 0.87

01:11:27.760 Like that, that was Canadian born Kalistani nonsense. 1.00

01:11:30.760 Yeah.

01:11:31.760 If you have, you have it right on.

01:11:32.760 Yeah.

01:11:33.760 I have the original magazine published by a Kalistani Gurdwara in Brampton where that page

01:11:41.760 is from about Surinder Singh Chandra, a dead terrorist who's, uh, stated as a martyr.

01:11:48.760 And his brief history is given, uh, with his photograph in this magazine that, that, that,

01:11:55.760 that he made three, he made three trips between India and Canada.

01:11:59.760 He killed ASI, which is like a police sergeant.

01:12:02.760 Oh, and they're very happy about the killing.

01:12:04.760 They're like, and it was great.

01:12:06.760 He came back. 0.56

01:12:07.760 Very happy with the killing here.

01:12:08.760 He came back to Canada.

01:12:09.760 Then after a while, he decided to go back.

01:12:12.760 He killed another ASI, another sergeant or some other people.

01:12:15.760 He came back to Canada. 0.72

01:12:16.760 Then he went back again, uh, and he killed some people.

01:12:19.760 And then in the shootout, he got martyred.

01:12:22.760 He's a martyr of, of, of, of the Sikhs, the shihid of the Sikhs. 0.99

01:12:26.760 So isn't it interference?

01:12:27.760 Isn't it terrorism, uh, being planned in Canada, executed in India? 0.68

01:12:33.760 Why?

01:12:34.760 This is only tip of the iceberg.

01:12:36.760 And this is why I want to maybe, this is not government propaganda.

01:12:38.760 This is not government of India.

01:12:39.760 This is not a government of India's agents.

01:12:42.760 This is not anti-Khalistani forces, uh, making a point.

01:12:45.760 This is a magazine which they published to lionize, not one person.

01:12:50.760 There are other persons in this magazine.

01:12:52.760 So, so these are the examples, uh, of, of, of interference in Indian affairs.

01:12:58.760 We all have seen the farmer's agitation.

01:13:01.760 The Brompton city council passed a resolution for the, in support of farmer's agitation.

01:13:06.760 Brompton city council.

01:13:07.760 I mean, what, what, what do they have to do with the farmer's agitation in India?

01:13:11.760 I was, I was, I remember watching the farmer's protest and like, I'm not an expert on what was going on in the Punjab region at the time.

01:13:16.760 I, maybe someone in the Punjab region to the farmer's protest, uh, protest said the word farm, agriculture, vegetables, something to do with land that might've gone on the picture.

01:13:28.760 I, one of the, in Canada, just Calistan flags.

01:13:31.760 I didn't hear a mention of a farm.

01:13:32.760 I didn't hear a mention of a vegetables, meat, cheese, food, agriculture, nothing about agriculture at any Canadian farmer protest.

01:13:40.760 I saw only Calisdans in bad Calistan all day. 1.00

01:13:43.760 That's all I saw.

01:13:45.760 Well, that was, that was what it was like in the West.

01:13:48.760 There were all the protests.

01:13:49.760 They were planned and supported by, by, by the Khalistanis and, uh, uh, left movement within the diaspora joined them.

01:13:57.760 And, and, and in India as, as opposition parties always try to take revenge from the ruling party.

01:14:04.760 They, they, they, they had an issue they can beat Modi with.

01:14:07.760 So Congress and other parties joined the left joined the communist party joined and the Khalistanis.

01:14:12.760 They, they, they were already well organized overseas.

01:14:15.760 So they started the rallies.

01:14:17.760 They started political lobbying.

01:14:18.760 They started media lobbying and there goes the farmer's movement.

01:14:22.760 Uh, I, I, I mean, though, if you look at those Indian laws and you compare with, with, with, with Canada, Canada has, has more of, of that, that, that free market, uh, kind of, uh, whether it's contract farming, whether, whether it's a, uh, kind of supply management.

01:14:39.760 Like Canada has supply management, which was not, which is not even close.

01:14:44.760 Indian laws were not even close to it.

01:14:46.760 Canada supply manages, uh, the poultry, the, the, the dairy and so on.

01:14:51.760 Farmers can't put overproduce.

01:14:53.760 Uh, there, there, there is very strict limits, uh, license system of what, what they can produce.

01:14:59.760 So there was no such thing in Indian laws.

01:15:02.760 So they were defending, uh, the Canadian system against the prospective Indian laws, like, which were being implemented and then later, later withdrawn due to emotional issue.

01:15:13.760 So Canada, Canada has like much more strong, uh, restrictions on farming.

01:15:20.760 Yeah.

01:15:21.760 It drives me crazy are farming laws, but that's. 0.96

01:15:23.760 And then one, one thing also comes to my mind.

01:15:26.760 They say, well, Brumpton city council passed a resolution because there are a lot of Sikhs living here.

01:15:31.760 They own farmland and in India, it's an emotional issue for the Sikhs.

01:15:35.760 Mayor of Brumpton said, oh, a lot of, uh, our constituents, they're very concerned and so on.

01:15:39.760 Well, there were, uh, farm agitations in Europe and every country, including France.

01:15:44.760 Uh, we, we, we have, we have large, uh, French population in Canada, not a single town passed a resolution to support.

01:15:52.760 When the Dutch farmers were protesting the new laws that no one stood with them.

01:15:56.760 Um, who is the mayor of Brampton right now?

01:15:59.760 Patrick, Patrick Brown.

01:16:01.760 Patrick Brown.

01:16:02.760 Everyone's favorite.

01:16:03.760 I just wanted to quickly bring up something about the farmers protest too.

01:16:07.760 Well, one, because again, it's so ironic when you have Justin Trudeau calling people supporting the freedom convoys,

01:16:13.760 Nazis and extremists and whatnot, in which results in no actual violence.

01:16:18.760 Yet we have the farmers protest.

01:16:19.760 Well, that once they show up to new Delhi, they start hitting people with sticks.

01:16:23.760 There's tons of injuries involved.

01:16:25.760 They start basically surrounding whatever castle that was and beating on it with like wooden mallets and stuff like that and damaging property.

01:16:32.760 And that's something that Justin Trudeau openly endorses as a freedom, like human rights movement.

01:16:38.760 And yet in his own country, he, he's like way more authoritarian against much more peaceful movements.

01:16:45.760 But that's just more of a side thing.

01:16:47.760 What I wanted to bring up to bring it back to Jagmeet Singh is that when Jagmeet Singh was at that one forum alongside Kalistani activists like Shamshir Singh, who is an open advocate of violence. 0.99

01:16:58.760 One of the things that kind of gives the lie to the idea that the Calistanis are just looking for, you know, seek rights in Punjab for seeks sovereignty for the ability to, you know, you know, like the ability to control their own destiny or whatever the high minded way of explaining it is, is that Shamshir Singh on on secretly taped audio when he's in the UK is endorsing Naxalite violence in Eastern India, which is atheistic violence.

01:17:26.760 So Naxalites that people don't know, they're like a communist Maoists who are basically waging an insurgency war in Eastern India.

01:17:35.760 And it's been going on since the, since the sixties, but Modi's cleaned up quite a bit in the last, you know, several, like in the last eight years or so it's been heavily cleaned up, but those people are just murdering random Indians and Hindus and other people who are religious or who are in favor of capitalism.

01:17:52.760 In some way in the hundreds, you'll go through like the records of Naxalite attacks.

01:17:56.760 One attack will just be, Oh, there's a bunch of people trying to build a road into a Naxalite health territory. 0.97

01:18:02.760 And that's a threat to the Naxalites because if a road gets built, maybe tanks come in and they're basically thug operation falls apart. 0.98

01:18:08.760 They just, you know, kill 130 people for no reason.

01:18:12.760 And people like Shamshir Singh who Jagmeet Singh shares a forum with is completely fine with it.

01:18:17.760 He actually sees those people's random killings as being fellow travelers with the Calistani movement.

01:18:23.760 Well, I mean, his comments are not out of the way because the truth is that a lot of, there was a Naxalite movement in Punjab in seventies, which, which was crushed by, by, by a Sikh party.

01:18:38.760 The, the Sharomani Akalidal, its, its premier was Mr. Badal who died recently in old age.

01:18:45.760 He crashed that movement.

01:18:46.760 So a lot of leftover of Naxalites to take revenge from the government. 1.00

01:18:51.760 They joined Vindrawala.

01:18:53.760 They joined Khalistan after not, not only there, even overseas, many Naxalites. 0.64

01:18:58.760 They, they joined Khalistani. 0.95

01:18:59.760 So Shamshir Singh is not out of the way.

01:19:01.760 He's talking what, what is happening on, on the ground, what they have relationship with the, with the Naxalites.

01:19:08.760 But as I mean, they have a relationship, but in a certain sense, the print, it's not a principled relationship.

01:19:13.760 It's just killing Hindus and imposing the Indian government or anyone who's not in favor of their either communist terrorist movement. 0.79

01:19:20.760 Communist terrorist movement or Kalistani terrorist movement. 0.91

01:19:22.760 That's my point is that these people are not freedom fighters.

01:19:25.760 They're just anti India fundamentally, because they will go out of their way to endorse anything that's anti India.

01:19:30.760 They're not saying, well, it's awful that the Naxalites are killing random Indian people in Eastern India in the red corridor.

01:19:36.760 No, no, no, they're, they think that's fantastic.

01:19:39.760 It doesn't matter.

01:19:40.760 That has nothing to do with the Punjab region.

01:19:41.760 They just like seeing people die.

01:19:43.760 I mean, that is right.

01:19:45.760 That is right.

01:19:46.760 It's like enemy of my enemy is my friend.

01:19:48.760 That's, that, that, that, that is what they're saying.

01:19:50.760 That's what they're doing.

01:19:51.760 Although they are, they are worlds apart.

01:19:53.760 When you think what they believe in Marxists are totally anti religion, basically.

01:20:01.760 And these people are fundamentalist among the six.

01:20:06.760 So, so, so they're totally a poles apart, but they share only animosity of India.

01:20:11.760 Yeah.

01:20:12.760 Yeah.

01:20:13.760 I mean, this is very common.

01:20:14.760 I mean, it's often called the red green alliance when the communists and the Islamists get in bed together, like when they overthrew the Shah of Iran in 1979.

01:20:21.760 Usually when they get power, whoever gets power will kill the other one.

01:20:24.760 So, you know, if the Naxalites gain power, they'll then start killing the Calistanis and the Calistanis gain power, they'll kill the Naxalites. 0.99

01:20:29.760 But until then they have a common enemy to tear down, you know, whether it be the West, whether it be India, right? 1.00

01:20:35.760 The uniting thing is not, we have principles.

01:20:38.760 It's sort of, we have an enemy.

01:20:40.760 It's, it's more, it's a movement built on hatred, right?

01:20:43.760 It's, it's sort of evidence of that, right?

01:20:45.760 It's, it's who do we hate?

01:20:46.760 That's good.

01:20:47.760 All right.

01:20:48.760 So we've been going to an hour and 20 minutes.

01:20:49.760 I promised you we wouldn't go over an hour, but it's been such a fun conversation.

01:20:52.760 I think we've got a bit lost.

01:20:54.760 I do need to ask one more question because.

01:20:56.760 We'll ask another question and then we'll give you a chance to give a good wrap up.

01:21:01.760 Anything you think we, we, we need to hear and then we'll go there.

01:21:04.760 Sorry.

01:21:05.760 Sorry.

01:21:06.760 This is my extremely nerdy question.

01:21:09.760 Do you know about what I, what I've had heard referred to as the 2000 Sikh Wars in Calgary,

01:21:17.760 Northwest with Art Hanger?

01:21:20.760 Was that, would you consider that one of like the first attempts for Calistan used to gain power inside of a conservative party?

01:21:26.760 Cause that was at the Alliance.

01:21:27.760 I'm not sure.

01:21:28.760 Do you remember that?

01:21:29.760 No, I remember Art Hanger.

01:21:30.760 I met him once.

01:21:31.760 Uh, I had some communication with him at times.

01:21:34.760 He was very much against the Khalistan.

01:21:36.760 Yeah.

01:21:37.760 Cause this is one thing I just want to mention to people.

01:21:40.760 Cause this is just the most ridiculous story I've ever heard is in 2000, the Alliance party.

01:21:45.760 Uh, like the conservative party at that point ruled by Stockwell day had a nomination race to Calgary, Northeast or Northwest.

01:21:54.760 And Art Hanger was the incumbent.

01:21:55.760 And they'd just become the Alliance and not the reform anymore.

01:21:58.760 And when he ran for his nomination, he ran against four other Sikh candidates in which there was more than 15,000 memberships in the riding during the nomination.

01:22:07.760 There was more memberships in that riding than there were the rest of the country for the Alliance party.

01:22:13.760 And he still somehow won cause he was the only white guy running in the area.

01:22:17.760 So all the Sikh Kalistani candidates seem to cut each other up. 1.00

01:22:20.760 Yes.

01:22:21.760 Yes.

01:22:22.760 That was my random story.

01:22:23.760 I, I remember that they were, they were very much against, uh, Art Hanger because, uh, uh, one of, uh, the ex leaders of WSO was nominated, uh, as a refugee board judge.

01:22:35.760 Uh, and, uh, Art Hanger, uh, brought this case to a parliamentary committee.

01:22:41.760 He questioned the government, uh, that are you aware of the past of this person?

01:22:45.760 Uh, and the basic, uh, point he brought out was that this person himself jumped a ship.

01:22:52.760 When a ship, uh, he was working for a, for a shipping company.

01:22:56.760 When the ship came to Montreal, he jumped the ship, he became refugee. 0.99

01:23:00.760 Uh, and then he married, uh, somebody marriage of convenience to get, uh, uh, his status.

01:23:05.760 And now he's immigration refugee board judge.

01:23:07.760 Like, uh, does it match?

01:23:09.760 And that is, that is when Christian was, uh, traveling to, to China, uh, with the team Canada.

01:23:15.760 Uh, and the story goes, uh, he told his minister to get his resignation right away.

01:23:21.760 So he tendered his resignation from, uh, the judgeship of a refugee board.

01:23:28.760 That is when, uh, WSO got very angry at Art Hanger.

01:23:31.760 That, that is the story behind it.

01:23:33.760 And then they couldn't decide on who was going to be the candidate, I guess.

01:23:36.760 Yes.

01:23:37.760 Uh, like there, there, there was a day in, in the Khalistani movement that three, four organizations

01:23:43.760 like ISYF, uh, World Sikh organization.

01:23:49.760 They were not seeing eye to eye.

01:23:52.760 They were rivals.

01:23:55.760 They were rivals.

01:23:56.760 They were, uh, they were fighting for control of the temples.

01:23:59.760 Some temples were under one organization's control.

01:24:01.760 Some were in the other one, some were contested.

01:24:04.760 So those were the days when they were, they will act against each other.

01:24:07.760 Uh, but then slowly that, that old generation kind of became old and irrelevant. 0.95

01:24:14.760 And the young Khalistanis who were born here, they were indoctrinated here.

01:24:19.760 They, they took the charge.

01:24:21.760 Now, no matter who, uh, if there is a common enemy, no matter which organization they belong

01:24:28.760 to, they all go after you.

01:24:29.760 Okay.

01:24:30.760 Well, I, that's great for Tahir. 1.00

01:24:32.760 That makes me like Art Hanger even more.

01:24:34.760 He's a gem and I've worked with him a bunch of different times or not a bunch of different

01:24:38.760 times, a couple of different times in the past.

01:24:40.760 And that's, that's just growing his myth in my mind.

01:24:43.760 I thought maybe Daniel, you want to serve up the, uh, final question for, uh, as we play

01:24:48.760 it out.

01:24:49.760 Yeah.

01:24:50.760 I mean, I think you've done a pretty good job of giving in a basic overview of how the

01:24:54.760 Calistani movement functions.

01:24:55.760 Um, and I think we've brought it sort of to today.

01:24:59.760 Um, and where they're at, I mean, I think I'll just leave it to you.

01:25:03.760 Like, I mean, you, you've said that you see, we can't remain allies with India for long.

01:25:08.760 If we keep this up.

01:25:09.760 Um, what do you, what would you, I'd say you give closest hits you want, but also I'd 0.79

01:25:14.760 ask, what would you say, um, to most Canadians just waking up to this?

01:25:19.760 Like, what, what would be the number one sort of advice?

01:25:22.760 Like they come to your brother.

01:25:23.760 In the context of the Niger situation.

01:25:25.760 Right.

01:25:26.760 Or maybe the conversation is like, what do I do?

01:25:28.760 What do I say?

01:25:29.760 Like if, if there's just like the, the thing that you would just give a quick sort of, I'm

01:25:35.760 people have listened to this.

01:25:36.760 They spent an hour and a half.

01:25:37.760 They're kind of invested now and they need some direction of like, how can I help?

01:25:42.760 Um, what, what would be your answer to those people?

01:25:44.760 Well, I think Canadians should take charge of their own country, their own destiny. 1.00

01:25:50.760 They should question those politicians who talk about always foreign issues.

01:25:55.760 Don't we have issues here?

01:25:57.760 Look how big housing crisis we have. 0.94

01:26:00.760 How big unemployment crisis we have, inflation we have.

01:26:04.760 And why are these politicians of all shades are talking about agitations in foreign lands,

01:26:12.760 grievances of, uh, of, of foreign lands?

01:26:15.760 Uh, they, uh, those politicians should be questioned.

01:26:18.760 Now, maybe we will be facing election pretty soon.

01:26:21.760 Uh, such politicians who are making these issues every now and then they, they, they,

01:26:27.760 they rise in parliament and they make issues, uh, out, out of nothing.

01:26:30.760 They never, they, they never talk about the real issues Canadians are facing.

01:26:34.760 And Canadians should stress that, look, we have issues.

01:26:39.760 Let's talk about our issues.

01:26:41.760 Uh, only, only then there will be some change and, and, and, and they will also be forced,

01:26:46.760 uh, like the leaders will be forced to change course when they have sour relationship relations internationally.

01:26:53.760 I think India has given long rope to Canadian politicians for almost four decades, four decades of interference.

01:27:01.760 I mean, there are hundreds of instances you can, you can show of interference in India.

01:27:06.760 We invited someone convicted of an assassination attempt at an Indian official to a dinner with the prime minister in India.

01:27:12.760 That's right.

01:27:13.760 Hello people.

01:27:14.760 That's right.

01:27:15.760 Water under the bridge.

01:27:16.760 I mean, India has finally reached a point. 0.94

01:27:18.760 India has put its foot down and I, there are indications that India is not going to back down. 0.99

01:27:23.760 Uh, and, and, you know, things are so serious.

01:27:27.760 When I look at this magazine and I send you that, uh, that, that chaps, uh, one page, uh, there are kind of credible. 0.98

01:27:37.760 There is a credible information that person, uh, there's a person who's very close and high ranks of the liberals.

01:27:45.760 His family used to hide weapons of this chap and his group.

01:27:52.760 When I'm going to guess who it is when we end the stream.

01:27:56.760 So, so, so I mean, the, the, the, the, the, this is how serious it is.

01:28:00.760 Uh, when I look at, uh, Mr. Justin Trudeau, I think he's skating on very, very thin ice.

01:28:06.760 Uh, the terrorist acts are planned here.

01:28:10.760 Uh, money funds are being raised here.

01:28:13.760 People are being indoctrinated here.

01:28:15.760 Uh, then plans are executed overseas.

01:28:18.760 I mean, he's on very, very thin ice.

01:28:21.760 If, if, if he thinks about Indian interference, I think Canadian interference is much, much greater in India and better. 1.00

01:28:28.760 He cleans up his act and other politicians clean their act and sit together with India.

01:28:35.760 And let's, uh, talk, which makes sense and tell the sick leadership here, whether it's WSO, whether there are other pressure groups that, yes, there is difference between freedom of expression and violence.

01:28:50.760 And violence, blending of violence, threats, violence, violent threats to, to anybody who speaks something you don't like the threats to the, to the, to, to the foreign diplomats posting those, those banners, war zones, and, and those tableaus.

01:29:08.760 And by the way, I must add, this magazine belongs to the same Gurdwara, which, uh, uh, made that tableau part of the parade.

01:29:21.760 It was the same, same Gurdwara, which, which lionized this, this terrorist. 0.86

01:29:26.760 It was the same Mrs. Gandhi's tableau, which, which became news in, in, in June of this year.

01:29:32.760 And also, you know, when, when, when I spoke to some friends, some media persons, uh, back home, uh, there is, there are credible rumors, uh, that, that there are Canadian staffers in India who are foreign proxies.

01:29:51.760 I've been told India has asked numbers and rank parity with Canada.

01:29:58.760 Not only Canada has a lot more staff in Indian missions there, but some of them are foreign proxies.

01:30:06.760 And if that becomes public with the, with evidence that will be very embarrassing to Canada.

01:30:13.760 Yeah.

01:30:14.760 I mean, we, we, we got a clean house.

01:30:15.760 I've been, I mean, I've been trying to raise alarm flags for a while.

01:30:18.760 You've been trying longer than I've been alive and I appreciate that.

01:30:21.760 And, um, yeah, this was a great conversation.

01:30:24.760 I, I, I so appreciate you giving us your time and your energy and the whole 90 minutes of it.

01:30:31.760 Um, you have an open door to come back whenever you want.

01:30:33.760 Um, our DMs are open, anything you need.

01:30:35.760 Um, we're happy to have it, have you here.

01:30:37.760 And it's everyone watching.

01:30:39.760 I hope you learned something and, and, and, and, and can kind of see the dangers that Wyatt and I have been trying to explain to people through, unfortunately, Indian media. 1.00

01:30:50.760 And if you're in Canadian media, I suggest you might want to cover this because this is going to be a story that's going to matter.

01:30:55.760 It, yeah, you might think we have a few years until things get bad, but an ounce of prevention, an ounce of, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is, is what I'd say.

01:31:05.760 And you might want to.

01:31:07.760 What I just wanted to add right there is that, uh, for anyone who wants to see, uh, wants to see the documentary that Terry Malefsky made back in 2007, uh, uh, that Balraj is in, I'm going to be linking that YouTube video from connect politics that has, uh, that one in it.

01:31:22.760 Cause I think it's one of the best explainers if someone's not willing to sit down and listen to this full hour and a half, but you want them to know about it.

01:31:28.760 It's a good 20 minute video that explains it in a very snappy way that I think will get people to take the issue seriously.

01:31:34.760 But, uh, I guess other than that, we can probably end it right here.

01:31:38.760 It's been fantastic to have you on Balraj.

01:31:40.760 And just like Daniel said, we would love to have you back someday, hopefully.

01:31:44.760 And, uh, and I guess that's where we're going to end this year.

01:31:48.760 Thank you both.

01:31:49.760 Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak my mind.

01:31:53.760 Absolutely.

01:31:54.760 Thank you.

01:31:55.760 It's been fantastic having you on.

The National Telegraph - Wyatt Claypool - October 02, 2023

How Canada Became Khalistani HQ (ft. Balraj Deol)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript