The NXR Podcast - BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Conclusion - Part 6 of 6

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00:00:18.160 All right, welcome to our final installment in this mini six-part series on God and government,

00:00:24.020 particularly Christian government. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:28.920 I've been dialoguing back and forth with Pastor Toby Sumter.

00:00:32.720 He's recently, in the past few months, written a 50-question catechism on God and government.

00:00:38.840 This is the final installment, our sixth episode, where we offer our concluding thoughts over

00:00:44.000 the whole series.

00:00:45.500 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:00:48.960 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:50.960 All right. Welcome to our final installment in this mini six part series. We're going over

00:00:59.880 Toby Sumter's 50 question catechism on governments. And so this is the final one.

00:01:06.080 The first episode is our introduction. The second episode is the self-government. Third episode is

00:01:11.380 the family government. Fourth episode is the church government. Fifth episode is the civil

00:01:17.120 government. This is our sixth episode now, really with just some final conclusion, questions and

00:01:24.060 answers and our final thoughts. So Toby, let's go ahead and just go through the questions. We're

00:01:27.740 picking up with a question number 45. Will you start us off? Yes, sir. Question 45. When were

00:01:34.420 all these governments established by God? They were established at creation in the Garden of Eden

00:01:40.380 before sin entered the world. The fall of man affected the way these governments function,

00:01:45.460 but it did not create them. Question number 46. May these governments decide to take on new

00:01:51.140 assignments or jurisdictions? Answer, no. Because these governments derive their authority from the

00:01:56.380 Lord Jesus, they cannot take on new assignments or jurisdictions without relinquishing their

00:02:01.500 authorities since they would be disobeying Christ. 47. What does it mean that these governments have

00:02:08.060 separate powers or spheres? The separation of powers means that each government must only

00:02:14.340 exercise its authority in the limited jurisdiction assigned to it by God. Civil governments may not

00:02:20.920 regulate how or when the church gathers for worship or how families provide for themselves

00:02:25.860 or educate their children. Neither may parents take to themselves the authority over the sacraments

00:02:30.600 and the church may not legislate or execute criminal justice. Question number 48. Are there

00:02:36.780 not times when one government is abusing its authority and another government may legitimately

00:02:41.780 intervene? Answer. Yes. For example, when a crime as defined by Scripture has been committed in a

00:02:47.480 family or church, civil government must intervene. Likewise, when a family or civil government is in

00:02:53.700 unrepentant sin, ministers of the church must teach, exhort, rebuke, and censure.

00:02:59.340 49. Are there cases of overlapping jurisdictions or authority? Yes, there are occasional instances

00:03:06.720 where there may be legitimate overlap in jurisdiction.

00:03:10.220 In those cases of overlapping authority,

00:03:12.940 governments must protect their God-given jurisdictions vigorously

00:03:16.720 and work through the challenges respecting other governments as equals before God.

00:03:22.500 And question number 50, will all of these governments last forever?

00:03:27.320 Answer, no.

00:03:28.660 While individuals in Christ have everlasting life

00:03:31.360 and the nations will bring their glory into the new Jerusalem,

00:03:34.640 these governments along with marriage and family will be transfigured into something far more

00:03:39.620 glorious. And it is the church alone as the bride of Christ that will last forever. Forever and

00:03:46.640 amen. All right, Toby, we're going to make this a shorter episode. Just give me your big 30,000

00:03:53.160 foot view thoughts. What are you trying to say in these final questions? Yeah. I guess number one

00:04:00.980 from question 45, just establishing that I do believe that these these governments were

00:04:07.200 established in creation in sort of seed form. Obviously, the family government is the most

00:04:12.380 obvious one. In the Garden of Eden, you have a man and he's given a wife. So I would say that's 0.96

00:04:17.440 certainly at the forefront. It's that's why it is the foundation of human society. And but I also

00:04:24.900 believe that at the same time we're told by paul explicitly um that even in that first marriage

00:04:32.420 god was also prefiguring the church christ and his bride um there there was in that first marriage

00:04:39.060 was the first church community uh the first gathering of of human beings in the presence of

00:04:45.140 god um and then thirdly i think you obviously have um the um the command to rule take dominion of all

00:04:53.700 of creation i think that applies both to individual human beings adam and eve were

00:04:59.460 commanded by god uh to to rule um they were also to do this as a family um but i think inevitably

00:05:07.220 as they are fruitful and they are multiplying that would have also implied a kind of civil

00:05:12.100 government uh even in the unfallen world so i think it's important to note that just because

00:05:16.980 i don't think those governments are afterthoughts um there are some within kind of a christian

00:05:22.020 libertarian um worldview that believe um and there's even sometimes they'll even call themselves

00:05:27.220 christian um anarchists um and they don't mean by that um you know necessarily chaos you know mob

00:05:34.580 rule um what they mean is they believe that civil government was only instituted because of the fall

00:05:40.580 and as um human beings are you know progressively sanctified civil government should be going away

00:05:46.020 going away going away um and i want to argue no i think i think a good bit of it was instituted

00:05:51.860 because of the fall punishment of criminals, obviously, but I think the establishment of

00:05:56.380 equal weights and measures would have been needed regardless. That's right. Yeah. I just had an

00:06:00.980 informal debate with a Lutheran minister. We, you know, we went into a studio and recorded and

00:06:06.140 everything like that. And, uh, but yeah, so even within Lutheran thought, you know, he, he was,

00:06:10.580 you know, he, they believe that the civil magistrate, that that sphere came into play

00:06:14.120 only because of sin and that it came after the garden. So they would say the church and the

00:06:17.680 family, they'd agree with you on the church. They'd say that's established in the garden

00:06:20.780 in pre-sin, but the civil magistrate is only to punish evil and it comes into play after

00:06:26.180 sin. And I, and I disagreed with him.

00:06:28.720 Yeah. So I think, I think some measure, even in a perfect world, there would have been

00:06:32.920 some need for organizational organization of human society. And it would have been a

00:06:38.860 very tiny office. I agree in that sense, like without sin, it would have been a very, very

00:06:42.960 small role, but I think, you know, organizing how society works in the public square would

00:06:50.420 have still been something needed what side of the road do we drive on yeah it would have been a

00:06:55.180 pretty boring job probably but nevertheless um would have been would have been needed so that's

00:06:59.500 one thing i'm trying to do there and then the last i think the other thing i'm primarily trying to do

00:07:02.560 is just um acknowledge that um there are um these spheres but that um uh they they do there are

00:07:10.840 legitimate times when they intervene and there are times when there is real um i would just say

00:07:16.960 overlap or just challenging issues where they have to work things out. And I think the probably

00:07:25.760 the key one that needs, I think most people understand that if obviously if there's a

00:07:30.600 shooting in a church, you know, the civil magistrate needs to intervene. There's been

00:07:35.260 a crime committed. Most people understand that and get that. I think the overlapping

00:07:40.820 one is the hardest, hardest one, probably. Um, and, um, and this might be something, um, you

00:07:46.400 know, I think we, um, we've, we've run into that some, I think with, um, COVID, at least the question

00:07:52.380 of it, even if it wasn't an actuality as much overlapping as we might've originally thought,

00:07:58.200 but for example, um, in a true bubonic plague, um, if, you know, if, if we really are, you know,

00:08:05.200 talking about 50% mortality rates and, you know, this kind of thing, and the bodies are piling up,

00:08:09.960 Um, I do think you have a situation where the civil magistrate does have some legitimate concern with that, uh, for public health.

00:08:18.500 Um, and I also think you have family government, um, that's still in charge of health and, and, and medical care and church government that's still in charge of making sure people are getting to church and worshiping.

00:08:30.340 And I've, and I can imagine in a scenario like that, where you really are going to have, you do have legitimate interest of all three governments.

00:08:37.080 And there really is overlapping jurisdictions there. And this is not like a, you know, silver bullet answer. But the thing that I want to insist on is even in that scenario, you don't relinquish everything to the civil government.

00:08:51.920 Yes. You recognize that the civil government has a legitimate concern here, but you also stand there firmly and say, but I also have a legitimate concern here as the father of my family or as the pastor of my church.

00:09:04.940 And so that's why I say, even in those cases, this is question 49, the governments must protect their God-given jurisdictions vigorously and work through the challenges respecting other governments as equals before God.

00:09:21.920 Um, the family government is equal before God and stands shoulder to shoulder with the civil government and the church government does likewise.

00:09:30.780 Um, uh, one example of this, or at least potential example, I didn't do a ton of digging in it, but when the, uh, COVID stuff was first coming down, I read a little bit about the Spanish flu, um, early part of the 20th century, which was much, much higher mortality rate, um, and struck young people in particular, um, very badly.

00:09:51.920 Um, and, uh, I believe it was in Washington DC where the civil magistrate, um, asked

00:09:58.600 the churches if they would, um, close down for a few weeks.

00:10:03.940 Yeah.

00:10:03.980 And it wasn't it like three weeks that the churches closed down for?

00:10:06.720 Yeah.

00:10:07.260 I think something like that.

00:10:08.160 Yeah.

00:10:08.400 It was, it was, it was short, much shorter.

00:10:10.320 Um, but the thing that I just wanted to underline is they asked, they did not command, right?

00:10:16.580 They did not mandate, did not order.

00:10:18.260 And I think that's because at least 100 years ago, the civil magistrates of Washington, D.C. understood they didn't have the authority to command.

00:10:26.620 They had a legitimate concern for health, but they had to ask the other government.

00:10:32.040 In the same way that, like, you know, you don't just order around another family's kids.

00:10:39.140 You ask the parents, you know, is it okay for them to do this?

00:10:42.880 And, you know, I was thinking about requiring them to do this.

00:10:45.320 Is that okay with you?

00:10:46.140 You respect that authority of another set of parents.

00:10:51.620 So we need to return to that and guard the distinctions vigorously, guard our jurisdictions vigorously, not relinquish those things easily.

00:11:01.020 Because I think it's in that that freedom is preserved.

00:11:04.760 Christian freedom, Christian liberty is preserved as we guard the jobs that God has given us.

00:11:10.340 And it's as these other governments, particularly the church and the family have relinquished, relinquished their jurisdictions and the, the jobs that were given to them, the commands they were given to them by Jesus, that the state has just sucked that all up and become this overarching, um, and the state it's, the state is always going to be the Leviathan in this equation of the three for, um, not just because the state is uniquely evil, you know, that there's plenty of evil fathers in the family and there are plenty of false churches.

00:11:38.420 And so it's, but, but it's, it's the nature of the state and the tool that's been given

00:11:43.120 to the state, namely the sword, everything the state does, it does at gunpoint.

00:11:46.380 So the state, one of the reasons fathers relinquish authority, it's sin and it's wicked.

00:11:51.560 But, but in order for fathers to carry out their responsibilities, they have to protect

00:11:56.480 and they have to provide, which means that a father has to work right in order for churches

00:12:00.220 to carry out their responsibilities.

00:12:02.140 They have to persuade with the sword of the spirit.

00:12:04.760 They actually have to persuade and cut men to the heart, cut men to the heart with preaching

00:12:11.340 and sacrament in such a way that people would give to the church so that the church now

00:12:15.400 has resources, but not taxes, but donations that people, freewill offerings that they

00:12:21.580 can use to carry out those responsibilities of ministering to the poor and these kinds

00:12:24.780 of things, the widow and the orphan.

00:12:26.120 Whereas the state, the reason the state is always so likely to become out of these three

00:12:31.520 governments of home, church, and state, the one that's going to take on the most responsibility

00:12:35.220 is because it's easy for them to take on the most. Now they do it poorly, but it's easy for them to

00:12:39.980 overstep their jurisdiction in terms of responsibility because they can also point the

00:12:43.840 gun at people's head and say, give us the resources to do it. So they get like, oh, well, we'll take

00:12:48.540 care of the poor, in comes welfare, and they can just raise taxes and shoot anybody in the head 0.99

00:12:53.880 who doesn't pay. Whereas I can't do that as a minister. I can't say, hey, we want to take care

00:12:58.200 of all the poor people in town um so all of you guys need to tithe 90 i can't you know what i

00:13:03.200 mean and like a father can't do that at home he can only work he only has so many hours a week to

00:13:07.800 work and those kinds of things so you know you know joel i'm i'm sad that it was at the very

00:13:12.720 end of this series that i finally we can finally argue about something because i'm going to disagree

00:13:16.700 with you okay go ahead go ahead for for uh at least 500 years the roman catholic church

00:13:23.340 was the leviathan right right you're right i i think i think it it's it certainly is the case

00:13:31.860 right now and i think it certainly seems to us because of this because of the sword that they

00:13:37.300 they can wield on that power and i think it's played into what we've done what's happened all

00:13:42.140 around us but i actually think in the history of the world we've seen examples of all three

00:13:46.440 governments um over overextend their bounds can you give me a family's you're absolutely right

00:13:52.040 about roman catholicism i can't believe i missed that as uh i think i think basically in what you

00:13:57.540 have in um various tribal countries like african tribal countries is family gone um to seed gotcha

00:14:05.160 um it's a and it's oftentimes connected with polygamy um but you just have what tribalism is

00:14:12.480 is family government um metastasizing um and and being overweening um it's controlling everything

00:14:20.780 and everything goes back up to the patriarch of the family um so it is i think or the matriarch

00:14:26.420 sometimes i think of like like hispanic uh culture a lot of times it's it's mama sure yeah but i

00:14:32.980 think in those um when it's i mean in some you know african cultures uh justice like punitive

00:14:38.300 justice is carried out by the family um you know in some tribal cultures you know if if great

00:14:44.760 grandpa says someone gets to be put to death they're put to death um and and that's you know

00:14:49.800 that's where all the power really resides i think because of the nature of it it doesn't tend to be

00:14:54.280 quite as um huge as um we saw with the roman catholic church and what we've seen now with

00:15:00.480 the modern uh state oh real quick i just thought of an example of family here in the united states

00:15:06.040 uh mafia that's that that would be a a tyranny leviathan but within the sphere of the family

00:15:12.320 of mafia that could rule a whole whole town in the shadows and like go okay exactly that's exactly

00:15:17.480 right no i just you know i think you're absolutely right that um the the state has used the sword i

00:15:23.880 think we have relinquished that authority and that and that and it can seem like it's so easy for

00:15:28.840 them because they have guns because they have bombs because they have swords and and so on

00:15:33.560 and but i also want to just say i think it we all three governments have to remember their limits

00:15:40.600 and it is possible for all three governments to overextend their authority. And that's still

00:15:48.320 tyranny, even when the church does it or when the family does it. And so we want to practice

00:15:53.800 biblical obedience to the Lord who gives all authority and recognize that as we guard those

00:16:00.360 jurisdictions by his grace, that is the way to Christian liberty.

00:16:06.380 Amen. Thank you so much, Pastor Toby. I think that's a great way to end this final episode.

00:16:11.260 Thanks for having me, Joel.

00:16:12.160 I really appreciate it.

00:16:12.920 You're welcome.

00:16:13.780 Thanks so much for listening.

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The NXR Podcast - May 25, 2022

BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Conclusion - Part 6 of 6

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