The NXR Podcast - BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Ecclesiology - Part 4 of 6

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.040 All right, welcome. This is episode four in a mini bonus series that we're doing with Theology Applied.

00:00:23.540 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries,

00:00:26.200 And what I'm doing is I'm having a discussion with Pastor Toby Sumter on a catechism that

00:00:32.840 he wrote about God and government, and particularly Christian government.

00:00:36.620 So this is episode four now, dealing with the government of the church, ecclesiastical

00:00:42.440 government.

00:00:43.540 So you're in for a treat.

00:00:44.760 Tune in.

00:00:45.640 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:00:49.080 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:51.080 All right, so we're picking back up with our journey through Toby Sumter's catechism on

00:01:01.880 governments. And ultimately, he is laying out four governments. And so we have the government

00:01:07.040 of the self, we have the government of the family, the government of the church and the

00:01:10.780 government of the state. Not only do we have this idea of sphere sovereignty, that we have different

00:01:16.540 spheres, but these are governmental spheres. These are governments. There is the government

00:01:21.080 of the home, familial fathers, civil fathers, ecclesiastical fathers, and all of that ultimately

00:01:27.900 falls apart if we don't have self-ruled men. We need men and women, but especially men who are

00:01:34.300 governed by the fruit of the spirit, which is self-control. Self-control is self-leadership.

00:01:38.740 So if you're just tuning in, I encourage you go back and check out the first three episodes. This

00:01:44.000 is a bonus series that we're doing underneath the banner of our Theology Applied Podcast with

00:01:48.500 Right Response Ministries, and this is our fourth edition. So we have done the introduction,

00:01:53.660 we have done self-government, we have done family government, and we are now in this episode

00:01:59.240 covering church government. So Toby, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

00:02:04.320 Absolutely. I'm honored to be part of your bonus content.

00:02:07.360 Bonus content. Well, just for the record, it's not bonus content like your content that is only

00:02:12.040 available for club members who pay. This is bonus content, meaning it's extra content,

00:02:16.560 but it is publicly seen by all. So you're, you're getting as much exposure as we can give you.

00:02:22.780 All right. Yeah. The bonus content makes it sound like, oh man, 20 people are watching this.

00:02:29.380 No, it's, it's, it's live for everybody to see. So, all right. This is church government. Let's

00:02:34.780 do what we've been doing where we just each take a question and answer, and then we go back and

00:02:39.180 forth. You want to start? Sure. Glad to. This is picking up at question 19. What is the sphere

00:02:46.280 and assignment given by God to church government? God has given church government, the great

00:02:51.860 commission and authority over Christian worship. Question number 20. What is the means God has 0.81

00:02:57.880 given to the church to carry out the great commission and Christian worship? Answer. God

00:03:02.960 has given the church, the word and the sacraments to carry out the great commission and Christian

00:03:08.060 worship. Question 21. What is the Great Commission? The Great Commission is given in Matthew 28,

00:03:15.740 18 through 20, where Jesus says, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,

00:03:20.800 therefore go, disciple the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,

00:03:26.380 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. Question number 22. What is

00:03:31.300 Christian worship? Answer. Christian worship is called together gathering of the church in person,

00:03:37.380 principally on the Lord's day to renew covenant with Christ through the word read, preached,

00:03:43.140 sung, as well as through prayers and the celebration of the sacraments, all according

00:03:47.980 to scripture. Question 23, what is the word? The word is the entire Bible from Genesis to

00:03:55.680 Revelation, the perfectly preserved testimony of the patriarchs, apostles, and prophets

00:04:00.200 proclaimed by evangelists, missionaries, and pastors, and thoroughly taught to all who believe

00:04:05.520 in Christ for obedience in every human endeavor. The Bible is the authoritative word to every human

00:04:12.240 government, but it is the peculiar charter and constitution of the Christian church.

00:04:18.000 Question number 24. What are the sacraments? Answer, the sacraments are baptism in the Lord's

00:04:23.300 Supper, the signs and seals of membership in the church, means of grace for all of God's people

00:04:29.280 instituted directly by Christ. 25. Who are the officers of the church? The officers of the

00:04:37.320 church are qualified men called elders or bishops and deacons. Question number 26. What are the

00:04:45.040 offices within eldership? Answer. There are three offices of elders. Ministers or pastors are elders

00:04:52.780 tasked with the regular ministry of the word and sacrament. Teaching elders or doctors are tasked

00:04:58.960 with teaching the word, often in academic or missionary context, and ruling elders or lay

00:05:05.100 parish elders are elders whose primary job is to rule the church. All three offices of elders

00:05:11.860 share the government of the church equally together. Question 27. What is the office of

00:05:18.140 deacon? Deacons are qualified men who assist the elders in carrying out the ministry of the church

00:05:23.640 and in caring for the physical needs of the saints.

00:05:27.180 Question number 28, what are the sanctions of the church?

00:05:31.300 Answer, Christ has given to the church the sword of scripture with which it is authorized

00:05:37.460 to preach, encourage, teach, rebuke, as well as private and public censure.

00:05:43.060 This authority is also called the keys of the kingdom, and it includes welcoming new

00:05:48.840 Christian disciples through baptism, correcting for sin, and in cases when an individual persists

00:05:54.960 in high-handed, unrepentant sin, excommunication, barring them from the Lord's table, and reckoning

00:06:01.460 an individual, an unbeliever, and outside the fellowship and inheritance of Christ.

00:06:07.600 Question 29. What is the duty God requires of all people with regard to the church? 0.93

00:06:12.860 God commands everyone everywhere to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and so be baptized and

00:06:19.780 received into membership in a local church, to be in submission to local elders, and to participate

00:06:25.300 in the worship and life of the body through freely giving of their gifts. Amen. All right, so this is

00:06:32.920 probably the only section where you and I would disagree slightly on a few things in terms of our

00:06:38.440 ecclesiology. But let's not begin there. I think we should get there. I think it'll be helpful for

00:06:42.880 people, but let's not start with our disagreements. Let's start with our agreements. Both you and I,

00:06:48.640 maybe you can help me with the wording with this, but we would say that with these sovereign

00:06:53.120 spheres of government, the self, the home, the church, the state, there has been assigned

00:06:58.540 certain responsibilities, jurisdiction, right? It's not just, oh, I'm in a position of leadership

00:07:03.620 in the home so I can do anything. No, you have jurisdiction within that sphere and within your

00:07:09.140 office of authority within that sphere. So you only have as much authority as the Bible 0.63

00:07:13.680 gives you. And the Bible does not garner or limit the authority merely of church officers,

00:07:19.620 but civil magistrates, as we'll get to later, and fathers and mothers. And so the Bible is the

00:07:25.420 governing final arbiter of truth that lays out the jurisdiction for those people in positions

00:07:32.260 of authority in all of these spheres, not just the church, but certainly also in the church.

00:07:38.560 And so the Bible is going to say, these are the offices of authority, the positions of authority.

00:07:43.320 Here's the jurisdiction, the duties and responsibilities of the authority. And then

00:07:48.560 here are also the corresponding tools. And this is where maybe my wording is bad, but to each of

00:07:54.380 these spheres has been given jurisdiction duties, but God always, it seems like God always pairs,

00:07:59.560 like two peas in a pod, rights and responsibilities together, right? God doesn't tell someone to do

00:08:04.900 something and not give them with that responsibility he's assigned. He'd neglect to or fail to give

00:08:11.660 them the corresponding rights and authority and ability to carry out that responsibility. And so

00:08:17.560 in the home, you could maybe say that God has given fathers a certain responsibility in the

00:08:23.540 home, but he has also equipped them with the rod. In the church, we have the sword of the spirit or

00:08:29.240 the keys of the kingdom and the civil magistrate has been given a sword a literal sword not the

00:08:34.540 sword of the spirit but a physical sword and so there's tools given to to each of these spheres

00:08:39.820 those in offices of leadership within them corresponding this principle of corresponding

00:08:44.660 rights and responsibilities do you have anything you want to add to that yeah only just that i

00:08:49.860 think that sometimes christians underestimate the potency of those tools i think that we you can is

00:08:56.900 a sign of the idolatry of our current day, that we essentially worship the power of the

00:09:03.580 state, we worship the power of the sword, we believe that the sword has been given to

00:09:08.900 the state, the sword has been given to the civil magistrate, it's a legitimate tool.

00:09:13.680 But it's a sign of our unbelief that we don't recognize and understand that the Word of

00:09:19.120 God is living and active and powerful.

00:09:20.960 and it is just as potent for doing the things that God assigns us to do in the church. It's

00:09:29.660 a different kind of sword. It's a different kind of tool, but that's because it's suited to the

00:09:33.920 task that we've been assigned to do. If a church begins becoming, you know, sort of coercive,

00:09:40.460 it's bad for everybody. That's not what that sword is for. But when we are obedient to the

00:09:47.580 word and we wield that word in teaching the word, preaching the word, singing the word. When our

00:09:54.040 worship is bound and governed by the word, that's potent. The famous text in 2 Corinthians,

00:10:02.620 our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God for pulling down strongholds and every thought

00:10:09.900 that puts itself up against the lordship of Christ. It takes every thought captive. We should

00:10:16.240 not underestimate the potency of the Word of God when it's being preached, when it's

00:10:20.180 being taught to little ones in the worship assembly, in Sunday school classes, in Bible

00:10:25.980 studies, when we're singing the Word together in the Psalms in particular, and the scriptures.

00:10:33.280 That's potent and powerful, and we have to believe that as Christians and recognize that

00:10:42.620 God gives us those tools, those weapons of our warfare in the church, they really are mighty

00:10:48.520 and we ought not to despise them in the slightest. Amen. And not just the word of God, it would be

00:10:53.620 the most powerful tool of all. But it seems as though we have de-emphasized all these tools

00:11:01.560 given to the various spheres of government. So the sword, there is a sense of statism,

00:11:07.080 certainly. There's that idolatry that is alive and well, especially in American culture today.

00:11:11.340 but even with with elevating emphasizing the state there's a de-emphasis of the state's

00:11:16.940 god-given assigned tool namely the sword so right there's there's a push against capital punishment

00:11:22.660 well is it really effective does it really work you know and all this and and we try to we made

00:11:27.500 us we often make a subtle indictment of god himself a subtle accusation of god by by um

00:11:34.200 severing and divorcing what god says is right and what god says is good right so his law it's not

00:11:39.260 just the right thing, but it's the good thing. I delight in your law. It brings life. And

00:11:44.600 we're saved by the gospel alone in terms of eternal life, but the law leads towards human

00:11:50.720 flourishing. It does lead towards life. And so with the sword, the physical sword with the state,

00:11:58.480 if justice is delayed, rebellion and sin and wickedness arise among the public. But when

00:12:05.520 when the sword is used proportionally, impartially, you know, all the ways that biblical justice is

00:12:12.560 meant to be done with sufficient evidence, two or three witnesses, that's not just a hearsay,

00:12:18.120 but eyewitnesses, two to three independent lines of testimony, eyewitnesses. So it is evidenced,

00:12:25.640 it's substantiated, it's proportional, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for life.

00:12:29.760 It's unbiased, it's impartial, right? Justice is supposed to be blind, right? So if you have to

00:12:34.980 figure out what color, you know, what ethnicity was the police officer and what ethnicity was

00:12:38.880 the civilian before deciding what was right in the equation, then you're not doing biblical

00:12:44.280 justice. You're being partial. But when the sword is used in an appropriate manner and swiftly,

00:12:51.080 it's not restorative, right? This idea of restoring people, it's punitive. It's meant to be justice.

00:12:59.040 It's meant to be punitive, but it is restorative to a society at hold.

00:13:02.820 It curbs evil in the hearts of men, at least the outward manifestations of that.

00:13:08.840 And likewise with the rod.

00:13:10.180 So I'm thinking about, you know, with the family also, the rod being a tool, we underplay

00:13:15.320 that also.

00:13:15.980 You know, it's like, give them grace, give them grace, you know, and it's a cheap grace.

00:13:19.980 It's a watered down grace.

00:13:21.020 And it's like 20 minutes explaining to them their sin and preaching the gospel and not

00:13:25.640 really believing that the rod actually, I mean, this is a verse that just, it's crazy when I

00:13:30.780 think about this, but rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the gospel will remove it far

00:13:35.200 from them. No, rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod will actually remove

00:13:40.800 rebellion. So these tools have power, the sword of the spirit, most of all, but also the rod and

00:13:48.080 also the physical sword. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, we just want to remember that God's grace

00:13:52.940 is communicated in the means that he has determined. And we are not sovereign over those

00:13:59.560 means. And so, when a father and mother faithfully, diligently, lovingly enforces the standard that

00:14:06.520 God has set, uses the rod to correct rebellion in the heart of a child, that is grace. That is grace.

00:14:15.560 Because you are delivering them from their sin. The other proverb says that you will deliver

00:14:20.480 your son from hell. That is grace. It says, you know, the language is kind of rough in our modern

00:14:29.240 ears, but it says, if you beat your son with the rod, he will not die. You will deliver his soul

00:14:34.920 from hell. And that's probably illegal to say out loud now, but it's true. And that means though,

00:14:41.260 that faithful, diligent, loving discipline is grace. The same thing goes for capital punishment.

00:14:47.920 And then the last thing I'll say, Joel, is just that I think it's absolutely true everything you said, and at the same time, we have to recognize that God has given the church the job of discipling those governments.

00:15:01.680 It is the failure of the church.

00:15:03.960 Why does our state not carry out capital punishment faithfully? 0.87

00:15:07.200 Why do parents not discipline their children faithfully? 0.95

00:15:09.900 Because the church has failed.

00:15:11.380 It is the church's job to disciple the nations, to teach parents and civil magistrates what it is

00:15:17.080 they are to do to obey God. That's directly our jurisdiction. Our sphere is to disciple the

00:15:22.880 nations. And the reason why our nation is in high-handed rebellion is because the church

00:15:27.020 has failed to disciple it. Amen. Yeah, we can't complain about the state being lawless when the

00:15:32.140 church is antinomian. The church became lawless before the state did. And I think part of the 0.94

00:15:37.600 reason why the church became lawless is because it assumed that the state would take care of

00:15:43.300 morality and that the church could just preach the gospel. And it became this watered down,

00:15:49.740 truncated, gospel centered, became gospel myoptic. It's only the gospel. And we had this theological

00:15:55.800 minimalism. Instead of pushing theology out to the edges, it's sola scriptura, which I would

00:16:02.360 say yes and amen a thousand times, but at the expense of toda scriptura, right? That it's only

00:16:07.060 the bible sola scriptura but it's the whole bible the whole bible not just the red letters but the

00:16:11.740 black letters too not just the we don't unhitch the old testament from the new it's the whole

00:16:16.080 of the scripture the whole counsel of god for the whole of human society or some people might say

00:16:21.040 all of christ for all of life and so we we the church stopped preaching law and became lawless

00:16:26.520 antinomian um and many churches even adopted like new covenant theology that would have a rejection

00:16:32.460 or at least in function it it essentially rejects the third use of the law and then we wonder why

00:16:38.760 why the state has become lawless it seems like you want to say something yeah i was gonna say

00:16:43.020 but i think um i think you said at the beginning there you know we we assumed that the state would

00:16:48.800 just do its job and we could do something um you know we could kind of do a smaller truncated

00:16:54.020 you know version yeah i think it's probably some of that but i i think the problem is deeper than

00:16:58.380 that in that I think that it was I think it was pure unbelief and cowardice I

00:17:03.840 don't think we believed God when he said this is what you must do this is how you

00:17:09.540 must do it and we saw the Giants in the land and we were afraid because it takes

00:17:15.240 courage and faith those two things together courage and faith to do the

00:17:19.380 thing that God says to do if he says go dip in the dirty Jordan that's how you

00:17:23.760 get cleansed of your leprosy and we're like well we were hoping for something

00:17:27.240 more elegant and glorious. But this is the means that God has determined. This is how you disciple

00:17:34.080 the nations. You preach the gospel, the whole gospel, the whole word of God. You establish

00:17:39.520 churches where the worship of God is done, where the word is preached, where the prayers are

00:17:44.220 offered in Jesus' name, where the sacraments are celebrated. And that's the way that God has

00:17:51.160 determined to keep the other governments in their place. But we didn't believe God. We didn't trust

00:17:57.580 him. We said, but they've got a lot more money. They've got more guns. They've got more bombs.

00:18:02.640 They have psychology degrees. They have philosophy degrees. And we bowed before those idols and we

00:18:09.340 did not believe God and we became cowards. And now we're inheriting that.

00:18:16.200 Agreed.

00:18:17.140 So let's talk about question number 28.

00:18:19.560 So there's something here that I think is really significant.

00:18:22.300 So this is, I want to talk about specifically excommunication.

00:18:26.000 The question is, what are the sanctions of the church?

00:18:28.440 And so paraphrasing here, you said, this authority, skipping down a little bit in your answer,

00:18:33.480 but this authority is also called the keys of the kingdom.

00:18:35.860 It has the ability, as Jesus says, Matthew 18, to bind and loose.

00:18:39.440 So it can welcome in, this authority welcomes in new Christian disciples through baptism,

00:18:44.920 but also correcting for sin and in cases when an individual persists in high-handed, unrepentant

00:18:51.320 sin, excommunication and barring them from the Lord's table and reckoning that individual as an

00:18:56.580 unbeliever, tax collector or Gentile, an outsider in terms of Christian fellowship and an inheritance 0.71

00:19:02.100 of Christ. And so the thing that I want to hear you talk about a little bit, because I like that 0.94

00:19:06.700 you put this in here, because when I first kind of was adopting the keys of the kingdom and church

00:19:11.780 discipline. I want to be a faithful church, right? You know, where the word of God is rightly

00:19:14.860 preached, the sacraments rightly administered, you know, and, and also, you know, you might add

00:19:19.960 to that this characteristic of church discipline and many reformers did. And so I wanted to be

00:19:24.720 faithful in that. But if you're not careful, especially a young minister, you might say,

00:19:29.100 well, the one sin, you know, and I used to say that the one sin that we would excommunicate

00:19:32.540 someone for is impenitence, the refusal to repent. And I would still say that today,

00:19:36.820 but you have to be careful with that because you can deem something impenitent when it's like,

00:19:41.420 But the initial disobedience was that they didn't invite me to their birthday party.

00:19:46.200 But we don't see that example apostolically in the New Testament.

00:19:50.640 Like the primary example that we have, 1 Corinthians 5, and then I believe it's the

00:19:54.380 same man that Paul implores them to welcome back in in 2 Corinthians 2.

00:19:57.960 But it's a guy who was sleeping with his stepmom.

00:20:00.140 It wasn't just a guy who said something that they didn't like his tone, and then they corrected

00:20:05.840 him about his tone, and he didn't respond to that correction.

00:20:08.300 They deemed him as impenitent and barred him from the Lord's table.

00:20:11.000 It was, Paul even explicitly says, a kind of sexual immorality that's not even heard of among the Gentiles and the pagans.

00:20:19.020 Can you talk about that for a moment, high-handedness, high-handed sin? 0.85

00:20:22.820 Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:23.780 Well, I mean, even Matthew 18, which is the passage that, you know, is kind of the classic church discipline text where Jesus explicitly says that if your brother sins against you, you go to him.

00:20:34.440 Um, you know, the, the, um, there's a process, uh, and the whole point of Jesus underlines a couple

00:20:41.700 of times in that text is winning your brother. And, and so the question that, um, uh, Jim Wilson

00:20:48.220 is Pastor Doug Wilson's father, and he's got an old saying that we've all kind of inherited where

00:20:53.160 he says, there's a deeper right than being right. And I think that's getting at the same point that

00:20:58.760 you're asking about, which is, um, the whole point here is we want to go to heaven together.

00:21:04.100 The point is, we all want to go to heaven together.

00:21:07.740 And we're a bunch of sinners, a bunch of lousy sinners, forgetful sinners, and the Holy Spirit's taking us there.

00:21:15.760 And I think the point there is, the church's job with discipline frequently is, you know, it's a lot of encouraging, a lot of teaching.

00:21:26.540 There's a lot of, you know, we're all in this, we're all getting rid of the old man, we're all slowly putting on the new man.

00:21:33.140 And so I think the point is, is that there has to, there's a kind of, you know, sort of evangelicalism that doesn't practice church discipline and says, you know, not perfect, just forgiven, you know, which is sort of code for just give me a break, I can do whatever I want, and ask Jesus for forgiveness on Sunday, or something like that, which we don't have any interest for, any interest in at all.

00:21:59.100 we really want to pursue holiness, we want to pursue godliness, and so on. But I think at the

00:22:03.840 same time, it is easy to overcorrect, and then have a standard that's, you know, that is, I think,

00:22:10.480 in direct opposition to the point that Jesus says is, you know, you who judge your brother,

00:22:14.220 are you judging yourself first? Are you, are you the measure you use? Are you measuring yourself?

00:22:19.980 And I would include things just like, you know, patience with people, willingness to go to them

00:22:25.980 multiple times. I just gave a message on Matthew 18 just a few weeks ago here at King's Cross in

00:22:33.020 Moscow. And I, you know, emphasize with people like even these steps, it's not like once you

00:22:39.480 do step one, like you have to go to step two. Sometimes you might just talk to your brother

00:22:44.560 and then realize, you know, we kind of differ over this, but it's like, this is not a high-handed

00:22:51.200 sin, you know, maybe you think he took your parking place and, and, you know, and was,

00:22:56.060 was kind of, you know, grouchy with you, you know, maybe he sinned against you and you go and you

00:23:00.700 talk to him and be like, brother, why were you, you know, why were you frowning at me and scowling

00:23:04.660 when you stole my parking place at church? And he's like, you know, I don't know what you're

00:23:08.220 talking about. You're like, no, I saw you frowning. I saw you scowling. I, you know,

00:23:11.800 I think you were muttering some things under your breath. And he's like, I don't know what

00:23:15.200 you're talking about. And you're like, you know, what do you do with that? Like, don't, don't take

00:23:19.300 that to the elders, you know, just smile and laugh and say, oh, well, maybe I misunderstood

00:23:25.580 or maybe he's wrong. Maybe he forgot. Maybe he's whatever. It doesn't matter.

00:23:31.800 Or maybe he's lying and we're just going to cover it because that's what love, I think

00:23:37.040 Wilson says this, love covers or confronts. And there is a choice. There are, so some

00:23:41.880 things have to be confronted. There are some things that are so high handed, they must

00:23:45.920 be confronted um but there are other things where where the christian who is who has taken up the

00:23:51.180 offense that the offendee who's been offended actually has the option to confront but but also

00:23:56.900 has the option to cover and it's it's very possible there's there's you know again uh refer

00:24:02.940 to my my mentor pastor doug uh he uh says he likes to say sometimes there's no situation that's so

00:24:09.000 bad that you can't make it worse so you know this is an encouraging thought um and one of the

00:24:15.780 ways you can make it worse sometimes is being that like the pedantic um you know offended brother

00:24:22.160 who just won't drop something and won't cover it in love you you you can in a sort of fit of piety

00:24:28.420 but i know he sinned against me um you can be the one that's actually making it worse and you don't

00:24:33.520 know what spirit you're of it can be far more demonic far more satanic of you to be chasing

00:24:39.080 that down and the guy really might have sinned against you um and uh but it's not high-handed

00:24:44.180 And I think the key distinction here that I would urge people on is we're talking about some kind of ongoing, persistent sin that is a poison to this individual and or the community, and typically both.

00:25:00.780 And I'm talking about Ten Commandments stuff here.

00:25:03.300 You know, we're talking about persistent high-ended rebellion against parents and those in authority.

00:25:07.980 We're talking about murderous hatred, malice, crimes.

00:25:12.620 We're talking about theft.

00:25:14.000 We're talking about adultery. We're talking about, you know, pornography. We're talking about, you know, these kinds of high-handed Ten Commandments sins in an ongoing, persistent, and I don't care what you say sort of way.

00:25:27.500 That's when I think you get to the point where you say, look, this is not living like a Christian. It ought to be ordinarily the kind of thing where everybody looks at it and is like, clearly they're not a Christian. 0.91

00:25:37.660 right this is why at the end you tell it to the church and it ought to be the kind of thing that

00:25:42.500 however your polity works exactly when it's announced or when it's brought to the membership

00:25:47.880 of the church everybody should sort of be like yeah that's pretty clear he doesn't want to walk

00:25:53.420 with jesus right and for those of you who are listening this might be one of the differences

00:25:57.700 between toby and i in terms of our polity it's pretty much you know baptism and polity are where

00:26:02.100 we would primarily disagree but in terms of polity the reformed baptist with the 1689 has

00:26:07.100 this idea of the common suffrage of the congregation when it comes to ordination of both elders and

00:26:13.100 the diaconate. We would hold to this, and this falls into the questions here, but the diaconate

00:26:17.340 should be ordained biblically qualified men. So we'd hold a male diaconate, both Westminster and

00:26:22.580 1689, male eldership, different qualifications for those two offices within the church, but they both

00:26:28.560 should be men, they should be biblically qualified, and they're ordained offices. And so the Reformed

00:26:33.040 baptist with the 1689 that's going to be a congregational vote to ordain an elder also to

00:26:37.620 remove one to ordain a deacon also to remove one but then also when it comes to church discipline

00:26:42.880 tell it to the church and if he does not so we would read that as the church is church the

00:26:47.080 congregation the ecclesia the gathering and if he does not listen to the church then treat him so

00:26:52.160 we would see it as it's it's not informing uh the church of a decision made by the body of elders

00:26:57.780 to already remove the individual but it's actually uh what we're telling to the church is not the

00:27:02.720 decision rendered by the elders, but we're telling the church the situation itself and the necessary

00:27:08.860 pertinent details so that the church can then function as the highest ecclesiastical court

00:27:14.100 and render that decision themselves. But I agree with Toby 100% in the sense that

00:27:18.600 whatever the elders choose to actually bring to the church to that level of church discipline

00:27:23.180 should be so clear and so blatantly obvious that the church, that decision of rendering

00:27:29.720 and handing the person over should be a fairly easy decision. Hard in the sense that it's sad,

00:27:36.100 that it's tragic, that our hearts are grieving for that individual, but not hard in the sense

00:27:41.220 of, is this actually the right thing to do? Yeah. One of the last things I'll just mention

00:27:45.000 here, and it's not really in the catechism, but I always like to emphasize with people is that 0.89

00:27:49.480 when you do reckon an individual, an unbeliever, a tax collector and sinner, as Jesus says to do,

00:27:56.560 I don't personally, I don't know where you're standing on this, Joel, but we don't practice

00:28:01.840 shunning. We bar them from the table, but we've had excommunicated people continue coming to church

00:28:07.760 sometimes, and they are welcome to. And the instruction that we give is they're to be to 1.00

00:28:14.380 you as an unbeliever, which means they need Christ. You're not to fellowship with them as 1.00

00:28:20.180 if everything's still fine. You're not to just hang out with them, just have a beer and shoot

00:28:25.120 the breeze. But you certainly can take them out for lunch and say, you know, brother, I want to

00:28:30.700 explain to you why you need to repent again. You certainly can pursue them with the gospel,

00:28:35.820 just like you would an unbeliever. And in God's grace, I can speak to this over, you know, 20 1.00

00:28:41.680 some odd years being here in Moscow. We have practiced church discipline, I think maybe over

00:28:47.480 the years, you know, we've probably excommunicated, I don't know, maybe, maybe, you know, five to eight

00:28:54.340 individuals, not tons, but I can remember at least, I think, two or three individuals that

00:29:01.860 have been restored. Praise God. Because that actually is the goal. Even in excommunication,

00:29:08.420 the goal is to hand them over to Satan, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5,

00:29:14.180 for the destruction of the flesh, for the saving of their soul. The idea is, in a sense,

00:29:19.540 where you do what you do is you're setting you're setting them outside of the the covenant protections

00:29:24.500 of the people of god and the general blessings of the people of god and you're handing them over to

00:29:28.820 the world so that you know it's sort of like okay you want to eat the pig food you can eat the pig

00:29:34.580 food but the goal of that isn't because you want them to keep eating the pig food the point is you

00:29:39.460 want them to come to their senses and say what have i done i've i've i've rejected life with my

00:29:45.540 in my father's house and I'm sitting here as a slave eating pig food, I'm going to go home to

00:29:50.320 my father. And so that's what we should be praying for and all that. Right. Absolutely. So, um, you 0.65

00:29:56.040 know, I've always said that on the one hand, um, church discipline, the keys of the kingdom,

00:30:00.380 binding, losing is given to the church, the government of the church for protecting the

00:30:04.000 purity of the church from the center. Um, but there's, uh, but certainly it's also for the

00:30:08.860 sake of the center that he might be brought to repentance. Um, and I think the process itself

00:30:13.960 that Jesus lays out, which includes two or three witnesses following the law of Moses,

00:30:19.420 that shows us that it's not just to protect the purity of the church from the defiling

00:30:23.860 sinner, but it's also to protect the alleged sinner from the potential of an abusive church.

00:30:29.300 So church discipline contains all these elements.

00:30:31.820 So it's tough love for the sinner to bring him back to repentance.

00:30:35.820 It's protection and love, grace for the church to protect them from being defiled.

00:30:40.100 but then again it's also a protection for the alleged sinner who actually is not in sin but

00:30:45.280 is being abused from a church the process that's why it's detailed so there's all these things at

00:30:49.640 work in regards to how do we treat the tax collector or gentile certainly they're an

00:30:53.700 outsider how much relationship what type of relationship would we have three verses that

00:30:57.620 come to mind one is just matthew 18 hand them over treat them as a tax collector gentile and

00:31:02.080 i think there's something that can be gathered even from that that you know christians in in

00:31:09.040 the New Testament church, we're not forbidden from having any engagement with tax collectors

00:31:12.820 and Gentiles. So that's one thing that we can see. But two, I'm thinking, I'm reminded, you know, 0.99

00:31:17.880 just the concept of the grace of shame. And I'm reminded of what Paul says elsewhere, where he

00:31:22.000 says, if anyone does not take note of what I've written here, right? So if somebody's disobedient,

00:31:27.460 they're not acknowledging the weight of the apostolic authority of these commands, that

00:31:32.240 these commands come ultimately from Christ and should be obeyed. He's not listening. He's not

00:31:36.060 observing and obeying them, have nothing more to do with this individual. And there we see the

00:31:40.960 tough love also, so that he might be ashamed. And that shame is meant to ultimately bring him back,

00:31:47.540 that the shame would be used as a grace by God in order to bring about that individual's

00:31:52.120 repentance. But in that, you said, we don't advocate for shunning. And I know what you're

00:31:57.900 saying, and I want to just get further thoughts from you, because there is a sense in which it

00:32:01.860 says that you know like paul it seems like he's advocating for a corporate shaming of the

00:32:07.060 individual that um that we're having nothing more to do with him um so that he might feel a sense

00:32:13.400 of shame we are depriving him of of of the gift of relationship with the saints um in such a way

00:32:20.220 that that he might be put to shame and that that shame might drive him back to the cross and the

00:32:24.620 church what do you think about that right so um but he also says in the same text um but uh but

00:32:30.680 to treat him as a believer. So I take that text to actually be somewhere short of excommunication.

00:32:37.440 So I would take that text to be, you're somewhere in the process of church discipline. You haven't

00:32:43.500 yet put them outside the church yet. And so in that context, yes, we would occasionally,

00:32:48.960 so the two applications that we have for that text is occasionally like a public rebuke

00:32:54.800 of somebody who's in some kind of high-handed sin, but we haven't yet reached the point of

00:32:59.460 excommunication. And so that, so we're letting everybody know this person's not obeying.

00:33:05.620 They're in, they're in sin and we sort of publicly rebuke. And so that's letting everybody

00:33:11.000 know it's not, everything's not okay. Don't just fellowship with them like everything's normal,

00:33:15.780 but they're still within the church. So we're doing that with the hope that that sort of public

00:33:21.300 shame will bring about the grace of repentance, but we're still, but they're still reckoned a

00:33:25.960 believer. Gotcha. And then the second application is that we do occasionally practice a, what we

00:33:31.460 would, uh, we would call a suspension from the table, um, which is not a permanent barring,

00:33:36.400 but occasionally when we have a kind of a, um, pretty high-handed, um, scandalous sin, and we

00:33:42.180 think this person needs a shot across the bow, like you, you better repent here, or we're not

00:33:47.400 sure if we've gotten the whole story out yet. We will occasionally suspend somebody from the table

00:33:52.620 for like two weeks or three weeks or something like that. And that's an application of the same 0.86

00:33:58.220 principle. There's still a brother or sister, but we are barring them from the table. So we're not

00:34:03.780 even eating with them in that sense. And depending on the situation that sometimes announced publicly

00:34:11.760 or sometimes only told to them, but it's semi-public because there they are in church,

00:34:15.860 not taking communion. So that would be the way I would take that text is it's prior to

00:34:21.660 excommunication because paul says still treat them as a brother got you that's super helpful i

00:34:26.220 honestly just hadn't thought about it but as soon as you said that it became so clear that

00:34:29.600 i think within i haven't read any reformed baptists on this but somebody i don't know maybe like

00:34:34.140 nehemiah cox or john gill probably would say exactly what you said and i think where they

00:34:37.960 would put it in in terms of steps where it would be placed with matthew 18 would probably be tell

00:34:42.940 it to the church and if he does not listen to the church then treat him so it would probably be right

00:34:48.000 in between the telling of the situation to the church and before the church and during the

00:34:54.360 listening. And if he does not listen to the... So what's said there in Matthew 18 is there actually

00:34:58.580 is a extended period of time, however long that may be, but there is a period of time between

00:35:06.620 the matter being told to the church, where the church now can put him to shame in the godly

00:35:13.480 sense of the term, but he is given time to listen to the church. And what is he listening to? In

00:35:20.260 part, he's probably listening to the church in its unified decision to put him to shame. Will he

00:35:26.420 listen to the shame that is coming from the church because of his actions and repent? And if he does

00:35:31.980 not listen, if the shame doesn't work, then it's a further shame in a sense of actually

00:35:37.060 excommunicated. That's probably where that would fit in, I think.

00:35:40.140 Yeah, I think that's a good natural spot.

00:35:42.280 Cool. All right. Super helpful. Let's just talk about one more thing within this. We can talk

00:35:47.960 about signs and seals. I think that would be helpful also. But real quick, let's just talk

00:35:51.100 about elders. So that's one of the differences between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians is

00:35:55.400 that you guys have. So we have two officers in the church, ordained officers of the church. We

00:36:00.720 both believe that they're male to be held by biblically qualified men, elders, and deacons.

00:36:06.060 but then you guys have subsections within that elder category of, um, of ministers and then,

00:36:12.300 and then teacher teaching elders and then, um, uh, ruling elders. And some Presbyterians just

00:36:17.500 have two I've noticed. So some, it's just teaching elders and ruling elders. You guys have three

00:36:21.920 and some don't even make any distinction between them at all. So this is a, so this is Calvin's

00:36:27.580 view, um, that we hold at Christ church. And as, um, I think probably the majority view is what

00:36:35.340 you said is probably just distinguishing teaching and ruling. Calvin actually had the third category

00:36:41.440 where he broke out minister and teacher. But there are some Presbyterians actually who

00:36:46.940 nevertheless only they just say elder is an elder is an elder. No distinction between elders at all.

00:36:54.940 So that's not an... And that's what the Reformed Baptists would say. Yeah, so it's not an unheard

00:36:58.280 of Presbyterian view too. But the reality is, so for those Presbyterians who say an elder is an

00:37:02.980 elders and elder and for reformed baptists who you know who unanimously would say that that there's

00:37:07.880 no sub subcategories within eldership the reality is you know just you know showing a little bit of

00:37:13.860 humility functionally we agree with you and so so so we don't we don't have the labels we're saying

00:37:19.720 that's i know exactly so i'm trying to be fair here and say that functionally i do the same

00:37:23.880 thing and it'd be hypocritical of me not to admit that that um right now we have you know we're a

00:37:28.640 year into a brand new church plant going across the country from california texas so we don't

00:37:33.180 have um we're still organizing as a church but we have um about 100 people on the lord's day

00:37:38.620 50 of them are members in the church and we have lots of new people and then we um and then we have

00:37:43.800 zero deacons as of now but um some men that we're looking at for the deaconate and two elders and

00:37:49.980 with the two elders um right now i'm uh preaching i'm administering um the lord's supper um every

00:37:57.440 every single week, every Lord's day, and I'm preaching about 10 times. And then the other

00:38:01.920 elder steps in and preaches once. And then I preach another 10 times. And so for me to say

00:38:06.320 an elder is an elder is an elder, um, in terms of, again, the label, the title, I agree with that,

00:38:11.760 um, you know, in theory, but in function, um, anybody who's a member of my church would say,

00:38:16.780 but okay, an elder is an elder and is an elder, but, uh, the two elders in our church, um, seem

00:38:22.220 to have some, some fairly, um, big distinctions between, you know, what they actually do.

00:38:26.560 I think sometimes there is a little bit of, um, uh, talking past each other on with words.

00:38:34.100 Cause I think, uh, Calvin was willing to use the word offices within the eldership.

00:38:39.680 But I think sometimes that word office can maybe throw some of our, you know, two office

00:38:45.320 or, or, you know, uh, before Baptist brothers off, because we don't mean that those three

00:38:50.980 different kinds of elders have like some kind of completely distinct office we're talking about it

00:38:58.980 within the elder ship and that's why the last line there of the catechism all three offices

00:39:05.180 of elders share the government of the church equally together right we we believe in the

00:39:10.740 what's sometimes uh called the parody of the of the elder board um but the just that there um

00:39:17.640 I've only got one vote, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a pastor, um, a minister in this, um, setup.

00:39:24.640 Um, uh, Dr. Ben Merkel is the president of New St. Andrews college. He's a teaching elder

00:39:29.320 in our church. Um, and you know, uh, another gentleman is, uh, um, you know, my brother

00:39:36.180 is actually a ruling elder in our church. Um, but the, the, the, the, uh, the buck stops with

00:39:43.380 the elder board as a whole. Even though I've been given a particular task to teach and preach and

00:39:48.600 minister the sacraments. And the basic, you know, biblical verses we're pointing to, which I'm sure

00:39:55.420 you're aware of, but just for your audience's sake, would be in Ephesians 4, where Paul says

00:40:03.880 that he gave some to be apostles, prophets, and evangelists, some to be pastors and teachers.

00:40:09.720 there's at least a, you know, Paul's at least okay with giving different names. And I'm gonna assume

00:40:16.200 that pastors and teachers are both elders. And then in 1 Timothy 5, you have Paul saying to

00:40:26.440 honor those who rule well, especially those who labor in word and doctrine. And so what we're

00:40:35.800 seeking to do in making a distinction within the elder board is just simply do that. It's just

00:40:41.000 basically saying, we're going to honor their, we want to honor all the elders, all of them are

00:40:46.520 called to rule. Some of them rule particularly well, and some of them labor in word and doctrine.

00:40:54.680 Right.

00:40:55.240 And, and so between those two passages, pastors and teachers, ruling and laboring word and

00:41:01.560 doctrine we're just um giving some measure of honor to those tasks by designating them but again

00:41:08.680 that doesn't mean that i have more authority than a ruling elder right amen yeah and so for the

00:41:13.740 reformed baptist same thing like we would see that distinction of there's ruling and there's

00:41:17.100 teaching and that like that distinction is clearly in the scripture and the question is do we so do

00:41:21.740 we put we see the distinction both of us see the distinction and function and then the question is

00:41:25.860 do we also have a distinction in title to go along with that particular function the reformed baptist

00:41:30.840 would say, no, it's just elder. And elder and pastor or shepherd, these are all synonymous

00:41:35.880 terms. And so elders and elders and elder, but we do see a distinction in the ministry of different

00:41:41.220 elders. That brings me to one more question, though. I know the answer, but for the sake of

00:41:46.280 our listeners, ruling elders, right, within the Presbyterian framework, or at least your framework

00:41:51.300 of three different offices of elders, right, the minister, the teacher, the ruling elder,

00:41:57.100 um it seems you know if somebody uh read that quickly um it could seem to imply that the minister

00:42:03.780 and the teacher don't get a vote right you said i only get one vote um but what we're meant to

00:42:08.480 assume here is ruling elders maybe i'm wording it wrong but ruling elders get a vote they rule

00:42:13.320 and the other guys it's not that um they don't rule and only the ruling elders rule the other

00:42:18.520 guys rule along with the um the ruling elders and have additional responsibilities that the

00:42:23.580 ruling elders don't have. That's correct. Yeah. I, I understand. I think there are some,

00:42:28.280 uh, you know, there's variations in Presbyterianism and I think there maybe are some,

00:42:33.020 uh, so in high, what's I would call kind of higher Presbyterianism. Um, uh, there's actually

00:42:40.640 is a kind of hierarchy in the Presbyterian polity where, um, the Presbytery, which is the regional

00:42:46.060 gathering of, um, the teaching elders and ruling elders actually has kind of a, a hierarchical

00:42:53.320 rule over the local churches and in that structure pastors of local churches are actually

00:43:01.520 members of that presbytery that's right not members of the local church which i don't like

00:43:06.500 which i don't like either so for the record we're on the same page there um and um but that so those

00:43:13.420 pastors actually because they're not technically members of the local church don't have a vote

00:43:17.580 on their local session, I'm pretty sure. I think they vote at Presbytery, but not at the local

00:43:23.880 session. They teach and encourage at the local session level, but then the local session does

00:43:29.280 make the votes and makes the decisions. Now, the Presbyterian denomination, I'm part of the

00:43:35.280 Community of Reformed Evangelical Churches, is what I would just call kind of a lower 0.99

00:43:40.100 Presbyterianism, where we have, I think we wisely decided at the founding that that structure has 0.64

00:43:48.120 some inherent problems with it and challenges at the very least. I wouldn't go so far as to say

00:43:53.860 it's sinful, but I would just say, I think it's not as wise. And that is because I think what can

00:44:00.920 happen in that hierarchical structure is that hierarchy tends to get corrupted. And that

00:44:07.680 corruption then bleeds down into local churches. And so, um, we know that local churches of course

00:44:13.620 can still fall into sin as well, but we prefer to have that authority decentralized. And so

00:44:19.740 in our polity pastors must be members of the local church that they pastor. And that's why,

00:44:26.280 that's why I have a vote then on my local session, but you're absolutely right. All we in, in our,

00:44:30.880 in all presbyterian polity all all elders rule some elders rule and teach and some elders rule

00:44:39.860 teach and preach yes okay great all right um anything else you want to add on this section

00:44:46.420 uh the government of the church only that it's so important and it's so potent and i think

00:44:53.040 recognizing that if we want reformation in the public square we must have reformation here first

00:44:59.060 That's the main thing, is I don't think we can underestimate the failure of the church

00:45:06.240 in what has then, you know, the public square is downstream of the sanctuary.

00:45:12.220 We are reaping what we have sown at every level, in just morality, we have immorality

00:45:18.820 in the church, but also in the practical things like you've described, like the requirement

00:45:22.560 of biblical justice in the church, two or three witnesses, due process.

00:45:28.060 There's arguably a very strong case to be made that a form of Presbyterianism is actually

00:45:34.680 the foundation of the American Republic.

00:45:39.080 The whole idea of representative government, separation of powers, a blended government

00:45:44.300 of different parties and interests.

00:45:48.080 There's been scholarly work done on that a lot of the work that Calvin and the other

00:45:51.480 reformers did, which again, I mean this sort of in a generic Presbyterian way, not in a

00:45:56.300 high or capital p presbyterian way but just the notions of a representative government

00:46:01.020 uh the notions of diff different representatives representing different interests and different

00:46:06.380 kinds of people not being brought together and then there being checks and balances and

00:46:10.060 separation of powers um it it flowed from the reformation um king george actually called the

00:46:17.420 american revolution the presbyterian revolt that's it that was his name for the american

00:46:22.540 war for independence he says the presbyterians are revolting and this was partially because lots

00:46:27.820 of presbyterian pastors were involved in the the war and preaching that this was a just war to be

00:46:33.100 a part of but it was partially because he saw clearly as a king george is a church of england

00:46:38.860 anglican looking across the ocean he says this is a this this is presbyterianism um uh in full bloom

00:46:47.020 they want to be free of uh of the king uh and and because the king was the head of the church of

00:46:53.580 england and the still is the the queen of england today is the head of the church of england

00:46:58.700 um so it just just want to emphasize what happens in church what happens in church government and

00:47:03.500 worship flows out and impacts everything else and if we want to get the public square back

00:47:08.620 confessing the lordship of jesus as we should we want families raising children up in the

00:47:13.820 the nurture and admonition of the Lord, as we should, it starts in the church and church

00:47:18.140 government is not just a way to organize our nice little religious club. It's a government that God

00:47:24.420 has established and the gates of Hades won't prevail against it. Yeah, amen. Bad polity in

00:47:29.600 the church has led towards bad polity within the state. And two things that I think of real quick

00:47:34.540 is one, tyranny at the top, and then also cancel culture, mob rule. So in churches, without there

00:47:43.320 actually being due process without following the steps that jesus laid out for church discipline

00:47:47.540 you still see um uh you know somebody being put to shame but wrongly within a church there this

00:47:54.920 this one woman because of um something illegitimate is not invited to the women's 1.00

00:48:00.080 gatherings she's ostracized right so that's mob rule that's cancel culture and that's one one 1.00

00:48:05.780 wrong thing that doesn't follow church polity and then boom we see it in the state and then 1.00

00:48:09.800 tyranny, right? Like what I always tell people when it comes to, you know, whenever I preach

00:48:13.440 on excommunication or church discipline, Matthew 18, people, you know, it makes them nervous.

00:48:19.360 Anybody who's coming to the church thinking about joining our church is like, well, do I really want

00:48:22.660 to join now? Do I want to subject myself to the possibility of, you know, and what I always tell

00:48:26.760 them is this, again, it's not whether but which, every church kicks people out. The question is

00:48:31.320 how. Some churches kick people out by bringing them that, you know, the leaders in the church,

00:48:35.140 the pastors in the church, bring them into a back room and they break their kneecaps,

00:48:38.360 right they you know metaphorically they kick them out the way a casino would kick out a card

00:48:43.540 counter you know and so you don't hear about it but the fact that you don't hear about it is not

00:48:48.360 a good thing that means they weren't given a fair trial they weren't treated properly they you know

00:48:52.500 the steps in scripture were not followed and so that's tyranny that is ecclesiastical tyranny and

00:48:57.740 so we've seen ecclesiastical tyranny because it's not as though churches stopped practicing

00:49:01.940 excommunication they stopped practicing biblical excommunication churches still are kicking people

00:49:07.880 out left and right, megachurches do it all the time because they've deemed someone divisive,

00:49:12.420 but it was never actually, the steps of church discipline were not followed. So if you don't

00:49:16.980 want backdoor justice taking place, if you don't want tyranny, and if you don't want mob rule and

00:49:22.100 cancel culture, you need to snuff it out in the church first, as we seek to deal with it in the

00:49:27.560 state. So amen. Let's go ahead and conclude this episode. This was Ecclesiastical Government. This 0.95

00:49:34.120 was Government of the Church, episode four. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick,

00:49:38.660 before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the

00:49:44.300 show. This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content

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The NXR Podcast - May 11, 2022

BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Ecclesiology - Part 4 of 6

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