00:13:21.020And it's like 20 minutes explaining to them their sin and preaching the gospel and not
00:13:25.640really believing that the rod actually, I mean, this is a verse that just, it's crazy when I
00:13:30.780think about this, but rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the gospel will remove it far
00:13:35.200from them. No, rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod will actually remove
00:13:40.800rebellion. So these tools have power, the sword of the spirit, most of all, but also the rod and
00:13:48.080also the physical sword. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, we just want to remember that God's grace
00:13:52.940is communicated in the means that he has determined. And we are not sovereign over those
00:13:59.560means. And so, when a father and mother faithfully, diligently, lovingly enforces the standard that
00:14:06.520God has set, uses the rod to correct rebellion in the heart of a child, that is grace. That is grace.
00:14:15.560Because you are delivering them from their sin. The other proverb says that you will deliver
00:14:20.480your son from hell. That is grace. It says, you know, the language is kind of rough in our modern
00:14:29.240ears, but it says, if you beat your son with the rod, he will not die. You will deliver his soul
00:14:34.920from hell. And that's probably illegal to say out loud now, but it's true. And that means though,
00:14:41.260that faithful, diligent, loving discipline is grace. The same thing goes for capital punishment.
00:14:47.920And then the last thing I'll say, Joel, is just that I think it's absolutely true everything you said, and at the same time, we have to recognize that God has given the church the job of discipling those governments.
00:20:23.780Well, I mean, even Matthew 18, which is the passage that, you know, is kind of the classic church discipline text where Jesus explicitly says that if your brother sins against you, you go to him.
00:20:34.440Um, you know, the, the, um, there's a process, uh, and the whole point of Jesus underlines a couple
00:20:41.700of times in that text is winning your brother. And, and so the question that, um, uh, Jim Wilson
00:20:48.220is Pastor Doug Wilson's father, and he's got an old saying that we've all kind of inherited where
00:20:53.160he says, there's a deeper right than being right. And I think that's getting at the same point that
00:20:58.760you're asking about, which is, um, the whole point here is we want to go to heaven together.
00:21:04.100The point is, we all want to go to heaven together.
00:21:07.740And we're a bunch of sinners, a bunch of lousy sinners, forgetful sinners, and the Holy Spirit's taking us there.
00:21:15.760And I think the point there is, the church's job with discipline frequently is, you know, it's a lot of encouraging, a lot of teaching.
00:21:26.540There's a lot of, you know, we're all in this, we're all getting rid of the old man, we're all slowly putting on the new man.
00:21:33.140And so I think the point is, is that there has to, there's a kind of, you know, sort of evangelicalism that doesn't practice church discipline and says, you know, not perfect, just forgiven, you know, which is sort of code for just give me a break, I can do whatever I want, and ask Jesus for forgiveness on Sunday, or something like that, which we don't have any interest for, any interest in at all.
00:21:59.100we really want to pursue holiness, we want to pursue godliness, and so on. But I think at the
00:22:03.840same time, it is easy to overcorrect, and then have a standard that's, you know, that is, I think,
00:22:10.480in direct opposition to the point that Jesus says is, you know, you who judge your brother,
00:22:14.220are you judging yourself first? Are you, are you the measure you use? Are you measuring yourself?
00:22:19.980And I would include things just like, you know, patience with people, willingness to go to them
00:22:25.980multiple times. I just gave a message on Matthew 18 just a few weeks ago here at King's Cross in
00:22:33.020Moscow. And I, you know, emphasize with people like even these steps, it's not like once you
00:22:39.480do step one, like you have to go to step two. Sometimes you might just talk to your brother
00:22:44.560and then realize, you know, we kind of differ over this, but it's like, this is not a high-handed
00:22:51.200sin, you know, maybe you think he took your parking place and, and, you know, and was,
00:22:56.060was kind of, you know, grouchy with you, you know, maybe he sinned against you and you go and you
00:23:00.700talk to him and be like, brother, why were you, you know, why were you frowning at me and scowling
00:23:04.660when you stole my parking place at church? And he's like, you know, I don't know what you're
00:23:08.220talking about. You're like, no, I saw you frowning. I saw you scowling. I, you know,
00:23:11.800I think you were muttering some things under your breath. And he's like, I don't know what
00:23:15.200you're talking about. And you're like, you know, what do you do with that? Like, don't, don't take
00:23:19.300that to the elders, you know, just smile and laugh and say, oh, well, maybe I misunderstood
00:23:25.580or maybe he's wrong. Maybe he forgot. Maybe he's whatever. It doesn't matter.
00:23:31.800Or maybe he's lying and we're just going to cover it because that's what love, I think
00:23:37.040Wilson says this, love covers or confronts. And there is a choice. There are, so some
00:23:41.880things have to be confronted. There are some things that are so high handed, they must
00:23:45.920be confronted um but there are other things where where the christian who is who has taken up the
00:23:51.180offense that the offendee who's been offended actually has the option to confront but but also
00:23:56.900has the option to cover and it's it's very possible there's there's you know again uh refer
00:24:02.940to my my mentor pastor doug uh he uh says he likes to say sometimes there's no situation that's so
00:24:09.000bad that you can't make it worse so you know this is an encouraging thought um and one of the
00:24:15.780ways you can make it worse sometimes is being that like the pedantic um you know offended brother
00:24:22.160who just won't drop something and won't cover it in love you you you can in a sort of fit of piety
00:24:28.420but i know he sinned against me um you can be the one that's actually making it worse and you don't
00:24:33.520know what spirit you're of it can be far more demonic far more satanic of you to be chasing
00:24:39.080that down and the guy really might have sinned against you um and uh but it's not high-handed
00:24:44.180And I think the key distinction here that I would urge people on is we're talking about some kind of ongoing, persistent sin that is a poison to this individual and or the community, and typically both.
00:25:00.780And I'm talking about Ten Commandments stuff here.
00:25:03.300You know, we're talking about persistent high-ended rebellion against parents and those in authority.
00:25:07.980We're talking about murderous hatred, malice, crimes.
00:25:14.000We're talking about adultery. We're talking about, you know, pornography. We're talking about, you know, these kinds of high-handed Ten Commandments sins in an ongoing, persistent, and I don't care what you say sort of way.
00:25:27.500That's when I think you get to the point where you say, look, this is not living like a Christian. It ought to be ordinarily the kind of thing where everybody looks at it and is like, clearly they're not a Christian.
00:25:37.660right this is why at the end you tell it to the church and it ought to be the kind of thing that
00:25:42.500however your polity works exactly when it's announced or when it's brought to the membership
00:25:47.880of the church everybody should sort of be like yeah that's pretty clear he doesn't want to walk
00:25:53.420with jesus right and for those of you who are listening this might be one of the differences
00:25:57.700between toby and i in terms of our polity it's pretty much you know baptism and polity are where
00:26:02.100we would primarily disagree but in terms of polity the reformed baptist with the 1689 has
00:26:07.100this idea of the common suffrage of the congregation when it comes to ordination of both elders and
00:26:13.100the diaconate. We would hold to this, and this falls into the questions here, but the diaconate
00:26:17.340should be ordained biblically qualified men. So we'd hold a male diaconate, both Westminster and
00:26:22.5801689, male eldership, different qualifications for those two offices within the church, but they both
00:26:28.560should be men, they should be biblically qualified, and they're ordained offices. And so the Reformed
00:26:33.040baptist with the 1689 that's going to be a congregational vote to ordain an elder also to
00:26:37.620remove one to ordain a deacon also to remove one but then also when it comes to church discipline
00:26:42.880tell it to the church and if he does not so we would read that as the church is church the
00:26:47.080congregation the ecclesia the gathering and if he does not listen to the church then treat him so
00:26:52.160we would see it as it's it's not informing uh the church of a decision made by the body of elders
00:26:57.780to already remove the individual but it's actually uh what we're telling to the church is not the
00:27:02.720decision rendered by the elders, but we're telling the church the situation itself and the necessary
00:27:08.860pertinent details so that the church can then function as the highest ecclesiastical court
00:27:14.100and render that decision themselves. But I agree with Toby 100% in the sense that
00:27:18.600whatever the elders choose to actually bring to the church to that level of church discipline
00:27:23.180should be so clear and so blatantly obvious that the church, that decision of rendering
00:27:29.720and handing the person over should be a fairly easy decision. Hard in the sense that it's sad,
00:27:36.100that it's tragic, that our hearts are grieving for that individual, but not hard in the sense
00:27:41.220of, is this actually the right thing to do? Yeah. One of the last things I'll just mention
00:27:45.000here, and it's not really in the catechism, but I always like to emphasize with people is that
00:27:49.480when you do reckon an individual, an unbeliever, a tax collector and sinner, as Jesus says to do,
00:27:56.560I don't personally, I don't know where you're standing on this, Joel, but we don't practice
00:28:01.840shunning. We bar them from the table, but we've had excommunicated people continue coming to church
00:28:07.760sometimes, and they are welcome to. And the instruction that we give is they're to be to
00:28:14.380you as an unbeliever, which means they need Christ. You're not to fellowship with them as
00:28:20.180if everything's still fine. You're not to just hang out with them, just have a beer and shoot
00:28:25.120the breeze. But you certainly can take them out for lunch and say, you know, brother, I want to
00:28:30.700explain to you why you need to repent again. You certainly can pursue them with the gospel,
00:28:35.820just like you would an unbeliever. And in God's grace, I can speak to this over, you know, 20
00:28:41.680some odd years being here in Moscow. We have practiced church discipline, I think maybe over
00:28:47.480the years, you know, we've probably excommunicated, I don't know, maybe, maybe, you know, five to eight
00:28:54.340individuals, not tons, but I can remember at least, I think, two or three individuals that
00:29:01.860have been restored. Praise God. Because that actually is the goal. Even in excommunication,
00:29:08.420the goal is to hand them over to Satan, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5,
00:29:14.180for the destruction of the flesh, for the saving of their soul. The idea is, in a sense,
00:29:19.540where you do what you do is you're setting you're setting them outside of the the covenant protections
00:29:24.500of the people of god and the general blessings of the people of god and you're handing them over to
00:29:28.820the world so that you know it's sort of like okay you want to eat the pig food you can eat the pig
00:29:34.580food but the goal of that isn't because you want them to keep eating the pig food the point is you
00:29:39.460want them to come to their senses and say what have i done i've i've i've rejected life with my
00:29:45.540in my father's house and I'm sitting here as a slave eating pig food, I'm going to go home to
00:29:50.320my father. And so that's what we should be praying for and all that. Right. Absolutely. So, um, you
00:29:56.040know, I've always said that on the one hand, um, church discipline, the keys of the kingdom,
00:30:00.380binding, losing is given to the church, the government of the church for protecting the
00:30:04.000purity of the church from the center. Um, but there's, uh, but certainly it's also for the
00:30:08.860sake of the center that he might be brought to repentance. Um, and I think the process itself
00:30:13.960that Jesus lays out, which includes two or three witnesses following the law of Moses,
00:30:19.420that shows us that it's not just to protect the purity of the church from the defiling
00:30:23.860sinner, but it's also to protect the alleged sinner from the potential of an abusive church.
00:30:29.300So church discipline contains all these elements.
00:30:31.820So it's tough love for the sinner to bring him back to repentance.
00:30:35.820It's protection and love, grace for the church to protect them from being defiled.
00:30:40.100but then again it's also a protection for the alleged sinner who actually is not in sin but
00:30:45.280is being abused from a church the process that's why it's detailed so there's all these things at
00:30:49.640work in regards to how do we treat the tax collector or gentile certainly they're an
00:30:53.700outsider how much relationship what type of relationship would we have three verses that
00:30:57.620come to mind one is just matthew 18 hand them over treat them as a tax collector gentile and
00:31:02.080i think there's something that can be gathered even from that that you know christians in in
00:31:09.040the New Testament church, we're not forbidden from having any engagement with tax collectors
00:31:12.820and Gentiles. So that's one thing that we can see. But two, I'm thinking, I'm reminded, you know,
00:31:17.880just the concept of the grace of shame. And I'm reminded of what Paul says elsewhere, where he
00:31:22.000says, if anyone does not take note of what I've written here, right? So if somebody's disobedient,
00:31:27.460they're not acknowledging the weight of the apostolic authority of these commands, that
00:31:32.240these commands come ultimately from Christ and should be obeyed. He's not listening. He's not
00:31:36.060observing and obeying them, have nothing more to do with this individual. And there we see the
00:31:40.960tough love also, so that he might be ashamed. And that shame is meant to ultimately bring him back,
00:31:47.540that the shame would be used as a grace by God in order to bring about that individual's
00:31:52.120repentance. But in that, you said, we don't advocate for shunning. And I know what you're
00:31:57.900saying, and I want to just get further thoughts from you, because there is a sense in which it
00:32:01.860says that you know like paul it seems like he's advocating for a corporate shaming of the
00:32:07.060individual that um that we're having nothing more to do with him um so that he might feel a sense
00:32:13.400of shame we are depriving him of of of the gift of relationship with the saints um in such a way
00:32:20.220that that he might be put to shame and that that shame might drive him back to the cross and the
00:32:24.620church what do you think about that right so um but he also says in the same text um but uh but
00:32:30.680to treat him as a believer. So I take that text to actually be somewhere short of excommunication.
00:32:37.440So I would take that text to be, you're somewhere in the process of church discipline. You haven't
00:32:43.500yet put them outside the church yet. And so in that context, yes, we would occasionally,
00:32:48.960so the two applications that we have for that text is occasionally like a public rebuke
00:32:54.800of somebody who's in some kind of high-handed sin, but we haven't yet reached the point of
00:32:59.460excommunication. And so that, so we're letting everybody know this person's not obeying.
00:33:05.620They're in, they're in sin and we sort of publicly rebuke. And so that's letting everybody
00:33:11.000know it's not, everything's not okay. Don't just fellowship with them like everything's normal,
00:33:15.780but they're still within the church. So we're doing that with the hope that that sort of public
00:33:21.300shame will bring about the grace of repentance, but we're still, but they're still reckoned a
00:33:25.960believer. Gotcha. And then the second application is that we do occasionally practice a, what we
00:33:31.460would, uh, we would call a suspension from the table, um, which is not a permanent barring,
00:33:36.400but occasionally when we have a kind of a, um, pretty high-handed, um, scandalous sin, and we
00:33:42.180think this person needs a shot across the bow, like you, you better repent here, or we're not
00:33:47.400sure if we've gotten the whole story out yet. We will occasionally suspend somebody from the table
00:33:52.620for like two weeks or three weeks or something like that. And that's an application of the same
00:33:58.220principle. There's still a brother or sister, but we are barring them from the table. So we're not
00:34:03.780even eating with them in that sense. And depending on the situation that sometimes announced publicly
00:34:11.760or sometimes only told to them, but it's semi-public because there they are in church,
00:34:15.860not taking communion. So that would be the way I would take that text is it's prior to
00:34:21.660excommunication because paul says still treat them as a brother got you that's super helpful i
00:34:26.220honestly just hadn't thought about it but as soon as you said that it became so clear that
00:34:29.600i think within i haven't read any reformed baptists on this but somebody i don't know maybe like
00:34:34.140nehemiah cox or john gill probably would say exactly what you said and i think where they
00:34:37.960would put it in in terms of steps where it would be placed with matthew 18 would probably be tell
00:34:42.940it to the church and if he does not listen to the church then treat him so it would probably be right
00:34:48.000in between the telling of the situation to the church and before the church and during the
00:34:54.360listening. And if he does not listen to the... So what's said there in Matthew 18 is there actually
00:34:58.580is a extended period of time, however long that may be, but there is a period of time between
00:35:06.620the matter being told to the church, where the church now can put him to shame in the godly
00:35:13.480sense of the term, but he is given time to listen to the church. And what is he listening to? In
00:35:20.260part, he's probably listening to the church in its unified decision to put him to shame. Will he
00:35:26.420listen to the shame that is coming from the church because of his actions and repent? And if he does
00:35:31.980not listen, if the shame doesn't work, then it's a further shame in a sense of actually
00:35:37.060excommunicated. That's probably where that would fit in, I think.
00:35:40.140Yeah, I think that's a good natural spot.
00:35:42.280Cool. All right. Super helpful. Let's just talk about one more thing within this. We can talk
00:35:47.960about signs and seals. I think that would be helpful also. But real quick, let's just talk
00:35:51.100about elders. So that's one of the differences between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians is
00:35:55.400that you guys have. So we have two officers in the church, ordained officers of the church. We
00:36:00.720both believe that they're male to be held by biblically qualified men, elders, and deacons.
00:36:06.060but then you guys have subsections within that elder category of, um, of ministers and then,
00:36:12.300and then teacher teaching elders and then, um, uh, ruling elders. And some Presbyterians just
00:36:17.500have two I've noticed. So some, it's just teaching elders and ruling elders. You guys have three
00:36:21.920and some don't even make any distinction between them at all. So this is a, so this is Calvin's
00:36:27.580view, um, that we hold at Christ church. And as, um, I think probably the majority view is what
00:36:35.340you said is probably just distinguishing teaching and ruling. Calvin actually had the third category
00:36:41.440where he broke out minister and teacher. But there are some Presbyterians actually who
00:36:46.940nevertheless only they just say elder is an elder is an elder. No distinction between elders at all.
00:36:54.940So that's not an... And that's what the Reformed Baptists would say. Yeah, so it's not an unheard
00:36:58.280of Presbyterian view too. But the reality is, so for those Presbyterians who say an elder is an
00:37:02.980elders and elder and for reformed baptists who you know who unanimously would say that that there's
00:37:07.880no sub subcategories within eldership the reality is you know just you know showing a little bit of
00:37:13.860humility functionally we agree with you and so so so we don't we don't have the labels we're saying
00:37:19.720that's i know exactly so i'm trying to be fair here and say that functionally i do the same
00:37:23.880thing and it'd be hypocritical of me not to admit that that um right now we have you know we're a
00:37:28.640year into a brand new church plant going across the country from california texas so we don't
00:37:33.180have um we're still organizing as a church but we have um about 100 people on the lord's day
00:37:38.62050 of them are members in the church and we have lots of new people and then we um and then we have
00:37:43.800zero deacons as of now but um some men that we're looking at for the deaconate and two elders and
00:37:49.980with the two elders um right now i'm uh preaching i'm administering um the lord's supper um every
00:37:57.440every single week, every Lord's day, and I'm preaching about 10 times. And then the other
00:38:01.920elder steps in and preaches once. And then I preach another 10 times. And so for me to say
00:38:06.320an elder is an elder is an elder, um, in terms of, again, the label, the title, I agree with that,
00:38:11.760um, you know, in theory, but in function, um, anybody who's a member of my church would say,
00:38:16.780but okay, an elder is an elder and is an elder, but, uh, the two elders in our church, um, seem
00:38:22.220to have some, some fairly, um, big distinctions between, you know, what they actually do.
00:38:26.560I think sometimes there is a little bit of, um, uh, talking past each other on with words.
00:38:34.100Cause I think, uh, Calvin was willing to use the word offices within the eldership.
00:38:39.680But I think sometimes that word office can maybe throw some of our, you know, two office
00:38:45.320or, or, you know, uh, before Baptist brothers off, because we don't mean that those three
00:38:50.980different kinds of elders have like some kind of completely distinct office we're talking about it
00:38:58.980within the elder ship and that's why the last line there of the catechism all three offices
00:39:05.180of elders share the government of the church equally together right we we believe in the
00:39:10.740what's sometimes uh called the parody of the of the elder board um but the just that there um
00:39:17.640I've only got one vote, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a pastor, um, a minister in this, um, setup.
00:39:24.640Um, uh, Dr. Ben Merkel is the president of New St. Andrews college. He's a teaching elder
00:39:29.320in our church. Um, and you know, uh, another gentleman is, uh, um, you know, my brother
00:39:36.180is actually a ruling elder in our church. Um, but the, the, the, the, uh, the buck stops with
00:39:43.380the elder board as a whole. Even though I've been given a particular task to teach and preach and
00:39:48.600minister the sacraments. And the basic, you know, biblical verses we're pointing to, which I'm sure
00:39:55.420you're aware of, but just for your audience's sake, would be in Ephesians 4, where Paul says
00:40:03.880that he gave some to be apostles, prophets, and evangelists, some to be pastors and teachers.
00:40:09.720there's at least a, you know, Paul's at least okay with giving different names. And I'm gonna assume
00:40:16.200that pastors and teachers are both elders. And then in 1 Timothy 5, you have Paul saying to
00:40:26.440honor those who rule well, especially those who labor in word and doctrine. And so what we're
00:40:35.800seeking to do in making a distinction within the elder board is just simply do that. It's just
00:40:41.000basically saying, we're going to honor their, we want to honor all the elders, all of them are
00:40:46.520called to rule. Some of them rule particularly well, and some of them labor in word and doctrine.