The NXR Podcast - BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Theonomy - Part 5 of 6

00:00:00.000 All right, welcome back to our six-part mini-series on God and government. I am Pastor

00:00:05.500 Joel Webin, your host with Right Response Ministries, and I am having a discussion in

00:00:10.180 each of these episodes with Pastor Toby Sumter. This is our fifth episode, and so in this episode,

00:00:16.000 we're dealing with the government of the state. We're dealing with civil government. What is their

00:00:21.780 God-assigned jurisdiction, their responsibility, their rights and privileges? How can we tell when

00:00:27.160 there's tyranny within the state? And how do we as Christians resist tyranny in biblical ways?

00:00:32.860 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:00:43.320 All right, here we are coming back. This is now episode five of Toby's 50 question long

00:00:49.120 catechism on the governments. And so there's six episodes that we're doing. This is on Theology

00:00:54.400 applied with Right Response Ministries. The first episode is an introduction. The sixth episode,

00:00:58.700 the last one is a conclusion, final thoughts. The four in between, episode two, three, four,

00:01:04.440 and five is self-government is number two. Family government is number three. And then we have

00:01:10.980 number four is church government. And this is episode number five, civil government. We're

00:01:15.240 going to be talking about the government of the state. Let's begin by just doing the questions

00:01:19.580 and the answers. Toby, thanks for coming on the show. Why don't you go ahead and start with

00:01:23.040 question number 30. You bet. I just want to point out that 50 questions is actually kind of short

00:01:28.040 for Reformation catechisms. They went into like hundreds of questions usually, so I just want to

00:01:34.440 point that out. Very brief. For all the Baptists out there. All right, civil government, question

00:01:41.460 30. What is the sphere and assignment given by God to the civil government? The sphere and

00:01:48.060 assignment given by God to civil government is punishing criminals, establishing good order and

00:01:53.960 justice in society through equal weights and measures, and praising the righteous.

00:01:59.360 Question number 31. Does the Bible require a particular form of civil government? Answer.

00:02:04.520 The Bible allows for some flexibility and freedom in form of government, but it clearly teaches a

00:02:09.660 constitutional and representative form of government governed by scripture, common law,

00:02:14.560 and natural law prioritizing personal, local, and covenantal relationships and loyalties

00:02:20.200 with multiple checks and balances given the natural tendency of sinful men to abuse power.

00:02:26.320 A Christian civil order requires a limited government. 0.85

00:02:30.920 Question 32. How is civil government to be limited? Civil government is to be limited by 0.98

00:02:37.180 honoring the assignments given to the governments of the family and the church,

00:02:40.820 not meddling in or taking to itself those assignments, and remaining steadfast in the

00:02:47.360 sphere and assignment given to it by God, punishing criminals and upholding justice.

00:02:53.140 Question number 33. Who are the officers of civil government? Answer. Following the pattern of

00:02:59.660 scripture, the officers in civil government are ordinarily qualified men who are judges,

00:03:05.120 legislators, and executives, beginning with local magistrates in the city gates.

00:03:10.820 Question 34 What are the sanctions granted to the civil government?

00:03:15.900 God has granted the civil magistrate the sword with which to execute God's vengeance

00:03:20.020 on criminals.

00:03:21.420 The basic principle is the lex talionis, eye for eye, which requires strict, punitive,

00:03:27.320 or retributive justice, and biblical restitution in cases of theft, property damage, or divorce,

00:03:34.440 but may also include stripes, banishment, exile, or the death penalty.

00:03:40.100 is not an ordinary tool given to civil government. Question number 35. What is the difference between

00:03:46.320 a sin and a crime? Answer. Not all sins are crimes, but all crimes, if defined by the Bible,

00:03:53.440 are sins. However, sins are the jurisdiction and ministry of individuals, families, and churches.

00:03:59.800 Crimes are the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate and due objective public harm to life,

00:04:07.040 liberty, and property. The Bible identifies crimes as those actions which require restitution

00:04:13.120 or penalty by civil magistrates. For example, in the Bible, drunkenness and ethnic animosity

00:04:21.060 are sins but not crimes, while adultery is a sin and a crime.

00:04:26.660 36. Are the civil laws of ancient Israel binding on all civil governments for all time?

00:04:33.060 No, the specific laws of ancient Israel have expired with that nation-state.

00:04:38.400 However, those laws were based on the general equity of moral justice based on the eternal

00:04:44.440 character of God.

00:04:46.180 Since that eternal character cannot change, those common law principles are still binding

00:04:51.860 on all nations for all time.

00:04:54.880 Question 37.

00:04:56.140 What does natural law teach and require?

00:04:58.800 Natural law is the revelation of the eternal character and attributes of the Triune God

00:05:03.260 found in all of His creation, including His image found in all human beings in their conscience,

00:05:09.400 customs, creativity, and cultures, and it teaches and requires all men to acknowledge

00:05:14.360 Him as Creator and praise and obey Him in all things.

00:05:18.060 Because of sin, natural law must be interpreted and checked by Scripture.

00:05:21.520 38.

00:05:23.520 What is the difference between preventative and punitive justice?

00:05:28.340 PUNITIVE JUSTICE IS THE ATTEMPT BY HUMANISTS TO PREVENT CRIMES BY LIMITING LIBERTY THROUGH 0.77

00:05:34.100 ENDLESS REGULATIONS, FINES, AND INSPECTIONS, WHEREAS BIBLICAL PUNITIVE JUSTICE LEAVES MEN 0.72

00:05:40.000 FREE AND ONLY PUNISHES WHERE ACTUAL CRIMES HAVE OCCURRED. 0.84

00:05:44.600 Question number 39.

00:05:46.040 WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR A CIVIL MADRESTRIT TO ADMINISTER JUST PUNISHMENT?

00:05:51.740 magistrates administer just punishment when crimes are clearly identified in the Bible,

00:05:58.360 confirmed by the mouth of two or three witnesses, when the accused have the right to answer their

00:06:03.460 accuser and cross-examine any witnesses, and when the penalty is commensurate with the crime.

00:06:10.040 In short, the Bible requires fixed equal weights and measures, due process, presumption of innocence,

00:06:16.540 and convictions based on established facts, evidence, and testimony.

00:06:21.740 Question 40. Does the Bible require the execution of rebellious children,

00:06:27.080 adulterers, or homosexuals? No, the Bible allows the death penalty as a maximum sentence for such 1.00

00:06:33.740 crimes, but only requires execution for intentional murder. Question 41. Since God

00:06:40.400 establishes the authority of civil magistrates, must they always be obeyed? Answer. No. Jesus

00:06:47.580 says that we must only render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, but we must always render unto

00:06:53.740 God what belongs to God. Question 42. But doesn't the Bible also teach that we must sometimes

00:07:00.920 submit to evil rulers? Yes. In matters that do not require us to directly disobey God,

00:07:07.120 we are free to submit to evil rulers in order to be a testimony to them of grace and truth.

00:07:12.740 But we are also free to disobey, especially when God raises up righteous lesser magistrates that

00:07:19.100 we may follow instead. We must never submit when a magistrate commands us to disobey God.

00:07:24.680 Question number 43. What are some examples of righteous civil disobedience? Answer. The Hebrew

00:07:30.680 midwives lied to Pharaoh and refused to kill the Hebrew baby boys. Gideon threshed wheat and a 0.57

00:07:36.360 wine press to hide it from the Midianite tax collectors. Daniel and his three friends refused

00:07:41.500 to participate in idolatry in Babylon. Daniel prayed with his windows open in defiance of the

00:07:47.100 king's decree. Paul fled from a warrant that was out for his arrest. Question 44. What is the duty

00:07:54.200 of Christians toward civil government? It is the duty of Christians to seek the good of their

00:07:58.760 cities, counties, states, and nations, as well as pray for and honor those who serve in every area

00:08:04.340 of civil government. This good is to be defined by the Bible and not vague humanistic notions or

00:08:10.400 cultural fads. This good is primarily performed through faithful living in the other spheres of

00:08:15.400 government, free associations and markets, as well as direct participation at various levels of

00:08:21.240 civics. Fantastic. All right. I think we should start with question number 35 in terms of fleshing

00:08:26.200 it out. What is the difference between a sin and a crime? There's a lot that we could, you know,

00:08:30.100 other questions that we'll get to, but you said not all sins are crimes, but all sins, if defined

00:08:34.900 by the Bible are sins. However, sins are the jurisdiction and ministry of individuals,

00:08:39.000 families and churches crimes are the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate and do objective public

00:08:44.880 harm to life liberty or property the bible identifies crimes as those actions which

00:08:49.480 require restitution or penalty by civil magistrates for example in the bible drunkenness

00:08:54.840 and ethnic animosity are sins but not crimes while adultery is a sin and a crime and so with this

00:09:02.040 um how do how do we define how do we how do we do it is it all the 10 commandments so one of

00:09:08.540 the questions that comes into my mind that I get a lot of people

00:09:10.940 asking, you know, is it just the second table of law commandments

00:09:13.280 number five through 10? And the deal with how to love our

00:09:16.520 neighbor? Or what about? Is it a crime to blaspheme? Is it a

00:09:20.180 crime? You know, what about the first four commandments that

00:09:22.520 deal with idolatry? What would you say about that?

00:09:26.060 Yeah, no, I would say that this distinction runs through the

00:09:30.340 entirety of the 10 commandments. The, but I think the key, the

00:09:35.780 crucial thing that we're trying to make sense of is why in the Old Testament

00:09:41.540 law were there civil penalties for some things and not others. And so there were

00:09:49.160 civil penalties for blasphemy. There were civil penalties for various elements of

00:09:57.380 the first part, the first table of the law. And so I would say that it is right 1.00

00:10:02.180 and proper as was the case in our nation for a long time it is right and proper for the true

00:10:11.320 religion and the true God to be honored in civil law including having civil penalties tied to that

00:10:17.540 so you say that out loud nowadays and everybody you know says ah you want to be you know you want

00:10:22.020 to be a Christian Taliban or something but first of all number one you know there were civil laws

00:10:28.520 on our books protecting the sabbath day sunday um all the way up until just you know five minutes

00:10:36.620 ago like seriously and probably in some of your states it's still there just nobody's enforcing

00:10:42.800 it anymore um i believe almost all 13 of the original states had sabbath laws um the many

00:10:49.980 of the early colonies had sabbath laws and um you know that's the fourth commandment and um and and

00:10:56.340 The notion that the early states would have been okay with public blasphemy against Jesus 0.94

00:11:03.560 Christ or some kind of public celebration of using God's name in vain is absolutely ridiculous.

00:11:14.100 The early founders of our country, and I'll say this, the very same ones who adopted the

00:11:23.120 First Amendment, nevertheless, at the same time had rules on their books, civil laws on the

00:11:33.040 books protecting the first four commandments in the civil sphere. So I think that's historically

00:11:42.760 been the case. It was the case in English common law, which is what we inherited from

00:11:47.820 Great Britain, going all the way back to King Alfred. King Alfred was the one who actually

00:11:53.900 took the book of Deuteronomy and wrote the first English law code based on the principles he found

00:12:02.320 in the law of God. So what we're doing is we're saying, if God says that sometimes it is right

00:12:11.040 to give a civil penalty to these things, then we're saying, yes, there's a sin there, obviously,

00:12:15.300 to take god's name in vain is a sin before god but it is also right and proper for a magistrate

00:12:21.400 who is seeking to honor the living god as he should um to also enforce it um through civil

00:12:27.440 penalty um define for us and so that we can see the distinction divine law and natural law

00:12:33.700 yeah so there's there is not actually a true distinction in the sense that um because the

00:12:42.400 same God who created the heavens and the earth is the God who spoke to us in his word. So it's the

00:12:48.440 same God and it's the same principles. But what I would, but natural law is, is a parallel, runs

00:12:54.920 parallel to natural revelation. And so those would be principles of justice that we have, that we can

00:13:01.080 have perceived in creation, nature, particularly in human societies, in our conscience,

00:13:13.040 and so forth. It actually, in reality, mirrors God's sacred law. But what we're getting at is

00:13:22.800 the fact that God's nature is not entirely hidden even from pagans, and God's truth and justice is

00:13:32.100 still resident in the image of God that's found in all people. And so the fact that you could

00:13:38.120 learn something from Plato or Aristotle, the fact that you could learn something from China or

00:13:43.900 something like that, that tells us something true about the nature of God and the nature of justice,

00:13:48.200 or even how to organize human society, that's what we're getting at.

00:13:53.200 Yep. I'm reminded of Romans chapter two. Let's see. Romans two, verse 14. For when Gentiles who

00:14:02.720 do not have the law, speaking of divine law, special revelation, a Bible. For when Gentiles, 1.00

00:14:09.420 or in that case, the Torah, who do not have the law by nature, do what the law requires. 0.92

00:14:14.960 his one-to-one ratio he doesn't make any exception then they prove essentially is what he's saying

00:14:20.860 i'm exegeting a little bit here they are proving by their actions by doing by their obedient actions

00:14:26.060 doing what the law requires they're proving that they are a law unto themselves even though they

00:14:30.700 do not have the law again being the torah special revelation divine law they show that the work of

00:14:36.960 the law is written on their hearts natural law so natural law stems from natural revelation so god

00:14:43.660 god is a speaking god he has spoken through natural revelation and special revelation right

00:14:48.220 so romans one uh is kind of dealing with natural revelation and romans two is dealing with natural

00:14:53.040 law would you agree with that yeah yeah so um go ahead yeah romans i don't know if i would make a

00:14:59.680 hard and fast distinction between those two things but well yeah yeah there's overlap but but just

00:15:04.400 that when i think of the quintessential text that the presuppositional you know apologist is going

00:15:08.660 to be using with romans one you know that you're lying suppressing the truth these things are

00:15:11.820 clearly just uh perceived yeah right that's like talking about natural like the um the attributes

00:15:18.000 of god the divine attributes of god have been clearly perceived by what he has made natural

00:15:23.100 revelation his creation um and so we have you know god has has has made the world and he has made it

00:15:28.980 in such a way not just that these things have been communicated clearly by god but they've that

00:15:33.360 romans one says they've been perceived so it's not just that god uh didn't fail to get out the

00:15:37.440 message. Um, but also even the, the pagan, the unregenerate person has received the message.

00:15:42.320 So you, a man were, are without an excuse. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah. They're 0.64

00:15:46.240 without excuse. You receive the message. So even if you never had a page of the Bible,

00:15:50.420 special revelation, you have had natural revelation simply by being a human being

00:15:54.580 created in the image of God, living in God's world. So you have, um, God has given the message

00:15:59.460 to all those people and all those people have perceived, received the message. And therefore,

00:16:03.360 they cannot claim ignorance. Now, people do become progressively ignorant by sin. That's

00:16:08.500 what sin does is that sin, unrepentant sin, further and further sears the conscience.

00:16:13.920 But there's a sense, it's funny, people are born rebellious. So ignorance and rebellion,

00:16:19.360 people are born rebellious. That's the doctrine of total depravity. But biblically speaking,

00:16:23.420 they're not born ignorant. So it's not that people are born ignorant and because they're

00:16:27.880 ignorant, they choose to become progressively rebellious. Now, people are born rebellious, 0.84

00:16:31.680 It's a moral problem, not intellectual, but first and foremost, a moral problem.

00:16:34.880 And because they're born rebellious, they choose to lie and suppress the truth and deeds 0.97

00:16:38.480 of unrighteousness, which makes them progressively ignorant. 0.93

00:16:41.660 So people become ignorant, but they're actually born seen. 0.93

00:16:44.940 That doesn't mean that we still need spiritual eyes. 0.77

00:16:47.340 We need regeneration.

00:16:48.360 We need the power of the spirit to see the beauty of the gospel.

00:16:52.300 But we don't, in our natural selves, we do see the existence of God, the holiness of

00:16:57.960 God, the law of God, natural law.

00:16:59.700 And so you're arguing that the Ten Commandments, which would be the blueprint, right? That's the general equity that we find in all these civil commandments. But you're arguing that the Ten Commandments, all ten of them, including the first table, the first four, we can see that that is in natural law and can be seen by natural revelation? Would you agree with that?

00:17:19.420 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I don't think so, but part of the check here, of course,

00:17:24.660 is that, um, as I, uh, said somewhere in here about natural law was that because of sin,

00:17:30.160 um, we can't see it clearly. Um, and as you noted, we already have, we, we have knowledge,

00:17:36.000 but we also have this moral, uh, depravity, which we, where it's, we have a, uh, incentive not to

00:17:42.340 see clearly in our sin. And so, yes, it absolutely is there. You know, Psalm 19, so the heavens

00:17:50.180 declare the glory of God. Romans 1 says, His invisible attributes are clearly seen. Everyone's

00:17:56.840 without excuse. But in our sin, we also suppress that truth and unrighteousness. But I would say,

00:18:04.200 yes, absolutely. The Bible tells us exactly what is resident in creation. And so I would even,

00:18:09.180 you know, even something like the Sabbath command, um, God created the world in six days and rested

00:18:13.980 on the seventh. Um, and that, so that's from the, from jump. So even that is embedded in the natural

00:18:20.440 world. Um, so I think, and out of that, that being the blueprint, that's a, that's one of the 10

00:18:26.240 commandments, part of the Decalogue, but out of that comes certain civil laws, like, like giving

00:18:29.980 in the seventh year, right. I'm going to double, double production in the sixth year, but in the

00:18:34.820 seventh year, give, give the land a rest. And that's not just something that God did with

00:18:39.480 Israel that we still have these principles at play with agriculture today, that the land needs

00:18:44.240 to rest if it's going to long-term be productive. And so meaning natural revelation, farming the

00:18:50.540 earth, the soil, nature, what God has made teaches you the principle of a one in seven pattern of

00:18:56.760 rest. That's right. Yeah. That's natural revelation. Exactly. And so if we're going to

00:19:00.920 be, if we're going to take dominion wisely, we have to, we have to recognize that God is teaching

00:19:05.140 Israel something that are important. Um, there, um, I believe that in some of these laws, there

00:19:10.300 are what I would call ceremonial aspects that, um, that were tied particularly to the ceremonial

00:19:16.600 system. Um, some of them are entirely ceremonial, like the sacrifice of lambs and goats, you know,

00:19:21.800 from Hebrews that's fulfilled in Jesus. We don't need to do any more of that. But I think, um,

00:19:26.300 like the Sabbath command, for example, would say, I think there were ceremonial elements to it.

00:19:30.920 but i also think there were moral and civil elements i think it actually held all three

00:19:35.400 together um and so what we're our job to do is to to to see okay god created the world this way so

00:19:42.440 there is a principle here that goes all the way into creation and as you know scientists are busy

00:19:47.640 telling us like you know agricultural uh specialists saying you can't just keep planting

00:19:51.960 and and and harvesting every year and not give this land any rest right um so god was giving true

00:19:58.840 moral wisdom about how to care for creation. Another example of sort of natural law at work

00:20:07.680 from history would be the whole idea of mixed government. It goes back to the Greeks who first

00:20:15.180 started positing this idea of what is a sort of a republic, which is what America was founded to be.

00:20:22.260 And some of these early Greek philosophers said, you know, as we look at history, the societies tend to careen into ditches. And they careen into ditches basically, and work with me here in the analogy, into three different ditches.

00:20:38.800 And there's sort of anarchy that breaks out when democracy goes to seed. There's tyranny that breaks out when monarchy goes to seed. And there's oligarchy that breaks out when you might call the elites or the hierarchy goes to seed.

00:21:00.520 And so they said largely in most societies, you have sort of cultural elites, military generals, CEOs, you know, Jeff Bezos and, you know, you know, types.

00:21:12.700 And then you have good ones like Elon Musk.

00:21:14.740 We'll see how it goes.

00:21:17.320 And then you but then you have, you know, the dictator types, the monarchs, the kings and so on.

00:21:22.480 and then you have the people and um and so and or you could call it you know the commoners the

00:21:28.160 nobility and and the kings or whatever and so some of these ancient greek philosophers says you know

00:21:33.940 i bet you the best form of government would be some way in which you could have all three of

00:21:39.200 those interests blended together um sort of checking and balancing one another and um and

00:21:48.020 And so, now, there's not a verse in the Bible that says that, but what we do see in the

00:21:53.200 Bible is, I would say, a rudimentary form of that, where you have, for example, in Exodus

00:21:58.900 18, Jethro telling Moses, you need to stop trying to take care of the needs of all these

00:22:04.460 people all by yourself.

00:22:05.860 You should establish rulers of tens, hundreds, and thousands, and have these representatives

00:22:13.240 be sort of these lesser magistrates.

00:22:15.880 then as the need is you can appeal it to a higher level otherwise you're going to burn out there's

00:22:21.220 a check and a balance system being worked out there you also have just the distinction between

00:22:25.920 actually the priesthood and civil government being slowly emerging it's it's a little mixed together

00:22:31.960 but it's not quite as confused as a lot of moderns think Moses does some things that Aaron doesn't do

00:22:38.760 and Aaron does some things that Moses doesn't do and that's actually getting worked out by the time

00:22:43.180 of the kings where you've got, you know, King Uzziah, for example, thinks he's going to go

00:22:47.060 right into the temple and offer incense. And there's an armed priestly guard that ushers him

00:22:52.800 out. And he's struck with leprosy or usurping that distinction between what we would now call

00:22:58.400 church and state. They are both under God. They both answer to God, but they have different

00:23:04.800 jurisdictions. So, but basically I would say there's rudimentary principles of separation

00:23:10.400 of powers and representative government that you find in scripture that we need to honor but i think

00:23:14.760 we can also learn from human experience and the speculation of even greek pagans who say you know

00:23:21.720 this is how you know societies tend to go corrupt what if we tried to balance out those those

00:23:27.200 instincts in what they call a mixed or a blended government which is i think what the our christian

00:23:33.160 fathers sought to do here in america was say let's take these biblical principles let's also take

00:23:38.060 some of this, what we would call natural law and common law principles and seek to apply them in

00:23:43.360 the best possible way. Yep. Well, one further thought on natural law real quick. So natural

00:23:49.620 revelation revealing to us God, his existence, his holiness, the things that he requires from us.

00:23:56.080 And that being synonymous, this natural law written on the hearts of men, right? So,

00:23:59.680 so the 10 commandments, I've always, the 10 commandments have not, they did not come into

00:24:03.820 play at Mount Sinai written on tablets of stone, but they were written on hearts that to Adam and

00:24:08.500 Eve were given 11 commandments, 10 commandments and one positive precept that if Adam had never

00:24:13.400 eaten of the fruit, but he murdered Eve, the covenant of works or covenant of life would

00:24:17.460 have been broken. Right. And so, so what, you know, we, we have these written on the hearts

00:24:21.360 of men, this natural law that stems from natural revelation. Um, but because man, because of the

00:24:25.920 fall, because of sin, right? The image of God is tarnished, a vestige remains, but the image of

00:24:30.220 God is tarnished. So John chapter three, Jesus is the light of the world, but men loved the darkness

00:24:35.240 because their deeds were evil. But I was wondering this, I'm curious your thoughts. I've thought

00:24:39.660 about this a little bit lately, but I haven't read anybody on the subject. So man, the image of God

00:24:46.360 in man is tarnished because of sin. So man's ability to interpret natural revelation is

00:24:53.080 flawed because he has a bias, namely towards sin. But could you argue that natural revelation itself

00:24:59.920 what God has made. Also, it continues to speak, and it continues to speak something true about

00:25:05.520 God, but that at times that it might speak something that is less than true because

00:25:09.560 creation itself is under a curse. Meaning that if I go out into the world and I look at the world,

00:25:15.220 I'm seeing things that are true about God because the world contains still God's good

00:25:19.400 and wonderful design, but the world is also put under a curse that creation itself groans

00:25:24.780 under this curse of sin. So I feel like there are times where I've... So this is what I'm

00:25:29.140 getting that. So the person who would say, well, you know, well, you do find homosexual relationships

00:25:34.460 in nature sometimes, you know, or, you know, a praying mantis, you know, the female praying

00:25:41.240 mantis will eat the head off of its mate after coitus, you know, like, and I guess what I want

00:25:46.240 to say in that is say, you know, but when we look at the millennial kingdom and we look at Isaiah

00:25:51.080 chapter 65, you know, the leopard and the lamb lying down together, what I want to say is that

00:25:56.500 that nature speaks something about God, natural revelation, and it is sufficient to condemn.

00:26:03.120 We need special revelation for salvation, but it's sufficient to condemn because it says something

00:26:07.000 true and something that is somewhat exhaustive. It doesn't just say one or two things. It says a lot

00:26:13.000 about God that is true, but even not only is man himself under the curse of sin and therefore

00:26:18.620 flawed in his ability to interpret natural revelation, but the nature itself under a curse

00:26:24.880 sometimes says things that may not be true of God because nature isn't, it's speaking truth

00:26:31.740 about God, but it's not speaking as clearly as it was meant to. What do you think about that?

00:26:37.060 Is that out of bounds? I think it's pretty straightforward, man. I'm with you. I think

00:26:41.480 the fact that God pronounces a curse on the ground and says it's going to grow thorns and

00:26:46.340 thistles, that a woman giving birth is going to experience more pain, that there's going to be

00:26:54.020 more enmity and animosity between um people and between the earth and people and between god and

00:27:00.880 people i think all that together combines to arrive at exactly what you're talking about i

00:27:04.940 think i think it it does speak truly and it's sufficiently to tell us what we you know that

00:27:10.120 there is a god and that we need to turn to him um but uh but i do believe you're absolutely right

00:27:15.120 i think it is it is groaning under the weight not only of that curse um but also groaning under the

00:27:20.900 weight of our failure to properly rule it and take dominion of it. And so I think creation spoke

00:27:28.880 truthfully in the beginning, but part of the command to take dominion and make the world

00:27:32.840 fruitful also implies the idea that we were actually supposed to make creation in a certain

00:27:38.040 sense speak even more clearly about the glory of God. As we take dominion and we make the world

00:27:44.200 beautiful and orderly and we care for it, it speaks even more truly. And so that's why creation

00:27:49.580 groans for the redemption of the sons of men, Romans 8, so that it will come into its own. It

00:27:55.160 will finally be the glory that it was created to be. So I think you're absolutely right.

00:27:59.860 Amen. So creation is not groaning for a mercy killing from the Lord to dissolve like snow

00:28:04.940 in the literal sense. No, it wants to be made new and better.

00:28:09.600 Amen. All right, let's do this. We got to do this question, 38. What is the difference between

00:28:14.220 preventative and punitive justice? That's so helpful. Can you talk about, because I've heard

00:28:18.780 you guys with CrossPolitik, and I've been on the show a couple of times with you guys, but

00:28:22.140 you especially, between you and Chalk Knox and Gabe, just talking about, yeah, you're not going

00:28:28.640 around looking for crime. And part of what I think in that, and I know I probably got this from you,

00:28:33.420 but if it's just punitive and not preventative, right? You don't have the thought police and you

00:28:38.180 don't have the ministry of truth that Biden's now setting up, the disinformation council,

00:28:42.880 I mean, just Orwellian stuff. Guess what? You don't need as many employees paid by the state.

00:28:47.220 like one way to get a smaller government is to, to stop doing the, the what was it called? The

00:28:52.680 Tom Cruise movie, the minority report or something where they're trying to, you know what I mean?

00:28:56.640 Like, it's just this eerie kind of thing and they got it wrong. The whole purpose of the movie was

00:29:01.600 that they didn't see the future correctly. Go ahead. Right. Yeah, no, that's right. That's

00:29:05.800 like preventative justice gone completely, you know, bat crazy. But the, yeah, so the classic

00:29:14.660 law that I would point to that's used by many people who want to apply the general equity of

00:29:22.260 the law is the law that required Israel to have a banister or railing around the roofs of their

00:29:32.520 houses. But what you find there is, and the reason for that is this is an application of

00:29:38.740 the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, which means that you are also required to reasonably

00:29:44.780 seek to protect the lives of those around you, not cause them harm. And in ancient Israel,

00:29:50.260 and still the case to this day in many Middle Eastern countries, the porch, the balcony is

00:29:56.560 actually the roof of the house. Most houses are constructed in those countries as a flat roof,

00:30:01.340 and they were required to have a railing around the roof. And it says in the law there that if

00:30:06.220 they don't have a railing and someone falls off the roof, they are held liable for that bloodshed.

00:30:12.560 It's a, you know, a form of you were not protecting the lives of your neighbors. Now, so

00:30:20.720 the principle there would be then, so somebody, you know, initially, you know, so how does this

00:30:25.800 apply in the modern day? Well, I would say, well, if you have a flat roof and you hang out on your

00:30:29.500 roof, you need to have, you need to have a railing. And it's not tyranny for the civil government to

00:30:34.400 say you need to have a railing around your roof if that's where you hang out. In American culture,

00:30:39.880 we don't typically hang out on our roofs, but we have balconies and we have swimming pools and

00:30:44.720 ponds and lakes and places like that, or maybe, you know, a steep incline. And if that's your

00:30:50.860 part of your property and that's where people hang out, it is a reasonable requirement of the

00:30:55.700 civil government to say you need to have railings there to protect the lives of people that are

00:30:59.680 hanging out there. But to our point in terms of preventative and punitive, it's reasonable for

00:31:05.500 them to require that of houses and property. But what you don't find in ancient Israel is

00:31:12.800 home building inspectors. There's no penalty for not having a fence. There's no penalty for not

00:31:21.600 having a railing. They're commanded to, but there's no penalty for it. So they may be sinning by not

00:31:28.660 having a railing. But they're not committing any crime yet. The crime comes in is if they're

00:31:35.800 having the party, and somebody falls off, and they are hurt. It does say there, you'll be held

00:31:41.760 liable for that blood. If it's, if it's just an injury, then they can be required to do

00:31:47.440 restitution to pay for, you know, the medical expenses of the person who was harmed. And if

00:31:53.000 they died, presumably, depending on how negligent it was, they could be liable all the way up to

00:31:59.100 death. Because if it was massively negligent, then they basically did murder. But the point

00:32:08.600 to preventative and punitive is that same principles that work. The Bible establishes

00:32:15.260 this general equity, this basic principle that says the civil government certainly may have

00:32:20.540 book laws on the books that require reasonable protection of human life, but it does not have

00:32:27.700 the authority to come into my home and see if I've done it. It only has authority to do that

00:32:33.660 if there's, if there's been harm or damage done to somebody. So they, they would presumably if I

00:32:40.400 have a, you know, I have a, I actually have a, I have an upstairs balcony in my house and I have

00:32:48.360 a railing around it, but if I didn't have a railing around it and there were people in my

00:32:52.320 house and we were having a party and somebody fell off and got hurt or died, then you really

00:32:58.700 would have, the civil magistrate would have the right to come in and see what happened and check

00:33:04.000 my house and hold me liable for that negligence. But what you're absolutely right, the principle

00:33:10.780 there though is that punitive justice means that the civil magistrate, again, this goes back to the

00:33:16.160 job that God has given the civil magistrate. His job is to punish evildoers. It seems that

00:33:21.440 the most he could do is put some, in terms of prevention, he can put laws on the books that

00:33:27.280 would provide, you know, that say you need to do this, you should have a fence around your swimming

00:33:32.080 pool, but he doesn't have the authority to come out and check and see if I've done it.

00:33:37.280 He only has the authority to check and see if I've done it if something bad has happened,

00:33:41.500 because his job is to punish criminals or if somebody accuses me of doing something bad and

00:33:46.340 I didn't do it you know I didn't do it I you know someone could accuse me of negligent and he could

00:33:51.400 he could come out and say oh no but he's got a fence but it's not not constant inspections

00:33:58.100 not you know regulations and fines which is what we live in if you if you you know build a house

00:34:05.040 these days and many counties and states you find out just how a tyrannical of a state we live in

00:34:10.600 police state we live in, that, you know, you do not have the right to do what you want on your

00:34:14.600 private property unless you pay thousands of dollars and get inspections and permits from

00:34:20.220 your local county and cities. That's, that's wicked. That's, that's against God's word.

00:34:28.160 It's, it would be fine, in my view, biblically for the county to have basic law codes that they said,

00:34:34.720 this is um you know this required this is for health and fire hazard safety um that was reasonable

00:34:43.840 but then they don't they shouldn't have any authority though to check and see if i did it

00:34:48.480 unless something bad happens right and then if something if if a crime is suspected that has

00:34:54.000 occurred then sure they can inspect and see did i take reasonable precautions to protect life or not

00:34:58.560 But that ought to be based on biblical law and common sense, not, you know, you have

00:35:07.300 to have studs, you know, 16 inches apart and, you know, I had a, as we were building our

00:35:13.560 house, I had an inspector tell me that in a small closet bathroom that my toilet was

00:35:20.180 too close to the sink and we had to tear out a wall and redo the bathroom, you know, because

00:35:27.100 it was only like 25 inches away or something like that. And code said 30 inches. Um, but you know,

00:35:32.860 that's, that's, um, that's called living in a police state and it's tyranny and it's not freedom.

00:35:38.320 And I don't, I think we've just gotten used to it and we, you know, we've just sort of said,

00:35:41.700 all right. Um, I, you know, and this is how Joel, I'm sure you know this connection, but this is

00:35:46.940 how we end up with mask mandates and vaccine mandates. Um, we've been, uh, complying with

00:35:54.440 preventative law for decades in this country. We've been complying with it, even though the

00:35:59.160 state doesn't have authority to do it from God. Um, they've been acting like tyrants from debt

00:36:05.280 for decades, doing inspections, doing preventative stuff, saying you have to do this. And the,

00:36:10.220 and the defense is, well, something bad might happen. Um, and, um, they, they don't have that

00:36:16.440 authority from God. They don't have that authority, um, from, uh, natural law or common law. Um,

00:36:23.540 they have the, they have the authority to punish when crimes have actually occurred. Um, and, um,

00:36:29.040 and, but if you don't, if you let that keep going, you end up with them saying, well, um, a mask

00:36:34.060 might help prevent losing life. And you, you don't have anything to say back to that. And then two

00:36:40.940 years later, they say, whoops, I guess it didn't help. Yeah. Well, I don't even know if they've

00:36:46.080 completely admitted that. The CDC has said that, uh, not with the N95, but like they, but they have

00:36:50.720 said any cloth mask a cdc member said was a facial decoration it turns out did no good

00:36:57.240 right after two years until they changed their mind again right uh but you know but this is

00:37:03.020 also why you know you have to get a vaccine you have to you know they're invading our our private

00:37:07.640 our private property and our family government which is what that is that we've talked about

00:37:11.480 the family government previously it's the family government's job um to protect private prop to to

00:37:16.700 do what we want on our own private property to protect the health and welfare and education of

00:37:22.560 those that God has entrusted to us. It's not the state's job, but we've been acquiescing for

00:37:26.700 decades on this. And then when they come and say, well, now you need to have this thing on your

00:37:30.360 face or you need to get this jab. You know, we lost the argument decades ago because we did not

00:37:37.340 guard the distinction between preventative and punitive justice. That's super helpful. One thing

00:37:42.600 I want to say about, uh, just on that point, and then I have another question, but punitive and

00:37:46.300 preventative, I think it's also helpful, um, that the listener understand that, um, punitive does

00:37:51.260 have a preventative effect. So it's not going around policing. Um, but, but when justice is,

00:37:58.240 um, is administered swiftly, um, the rest shall stand in fear. And, and we see that even when

00:38:04.680 it comes to, uh, within the, the, uh, the sovereign sphere of the church that, um, you know,

00:38:10.020 like, so 1 Timothy 5, if an elder persists in sin, rebuke him publicly so that the rest shall

00:38:16.380 stand in fear. And so when justice is delayed, that actually causes, so what we see, what we

00:38:23.560 ultimately see is the exact, and it's what we should expect as people rebel against the Lord,

00:38:28.660 but we see the exact perversion, the exact opposite of what got it. So we have lots of

00:38:33.640 policing, the preventative stuff. And then when crimes are actually committed, justice is delayed

00:38:39.800 People sit on death row for decades, eating up taxpayer dollars, you know, and then people get slaps on the wrist, you know, and so blah, blah, blah.

00:38:50.100 So if we actually punished criminals properly and swiftly, proportionally, impartially, all those things that the Bible says, then you kill two birds with one stone.

00:39:02.760 number one, you don't need near as many government officials to carry out that ministry

00:39:06.300 as you do to go around and spy on everybody and regulate everybody. If you just deal with actual

00:39:12.620 crimes that have actually been committed, one, you can immediately have a smaller government.

00:39:16.960 You want to fix the economy? Boom. Everybody pays less taxes, but we're out of inflation.

00:39:21.520 Everything's immediately fixed there. And it is still preventative if it's swift and proportional.

00:39:26.300 Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. Somebody kills somebody and all of a sudden

00:39:31.900 that person is being hung in the public square where we can all see. And that is just, and that

00:39:38.400 is good, and that is right, and it curbs the actions of the wicked. So there is a preventative

00:39:46.300 effect of punitive justice. And so it kills two birds with one stone with a lot less government

00:39:51.680 employees. And so praise God for that. His word is always good. In addition to that, can you talk

00:39:57.840 to us about the lesser civil magistrates. So we talked about, you know what, actually,

00:40:01.900 before we get there real quick, jails. Talk to us about jails.

00:40:07.040 Yeah, okay. There are hardly any of them in the Bible. And frequently when we find them,

00:40:15.420 they're only used to lock up good guys. Joseph, Daniel and his three friends, Paul.

00:40:23.200 Wow, that's a good point. Good guys.

00:40:26.200 Where do we see in the Bible an example of, you know, an endorsement, a helpful endorsement of prisons or jails?

00:40:37.260 The closest thing I can think of is you have something vaguely reminiscent in cities of refuge, but there, they're not locked up in a cage.

00:40:49.700 someone who has accidentally killed somebody

00:40:53.680 not intentionally but accidentally killed somebody who wants to flee from

00:40:57.900 the avenger, the blood avenger

00:41:02.220 which was a form of punitive justice that God

00:41:05.280 regulated. And that was a family member, right? Yeah, a near kinsman

00:41:09.880 so it's the same word, kinsman redeemer that Boaz is

00:41:13.740 for blood avenger. So a near relative

00:41:17.040 could, you know, do what Boaz does, marry a widowed woman and raise up offspring for

00:41:24.320 a dead relative, or could also carry out justice if a family member was murdered wrongfully.

00:41:33.940 But God sort of regulated that allowance by saying, but if it was really an accident,

00:41:38.520 you can flee to a city of refuge and you can remain there. The elders of the city will inquire

00:41:43.600 and confirm and make sure that it really was an accident and you're not a murderer who needs to

00:41:47.440 be held liable. If they find that and there's concern for your life, you could remain in the

00:41:52.080 city until the high priest dies and your life will be safe there. But again, you weren't locked

00:41:56.860 up in a cage and it was not for actually a crime you committed. It was to protect you from the

00:42:01.040 blood avenger. Otherwise, I think the only other use I can think of that is sort of reasoning by

00:42:07.360 sort of good and necessary consequence would be, I think it certainly would be reasonable to hold

00:42:12.140 a murderer while they're having a trial, or another dangerous, violent criminal, a rapist,

00:42:18.000 or something like that, I think a temporary holding cell seems reasonable while they're

00:42:23.540 awaiting trial. But again, back to your point, if we're following biblical rules of justice,

00:42:28.200 the trials should be fair, judicious, but also relatively swift. And then the penalty should

00:42:35.960 be carried out swiftly, not taking decades, and so forth. So the issue, the problem, though, is,

00:42:43.580 is that we have rejected biblical restitution. So basically, the Bible, there's, there's death

00:42:53.840 penalty for capital punishment, capital crimes, capital murder, and, and I would say, other

00:43:01.560 violent crimes, like rape, would commonly be taken care of by execution. Other crimes,

00:43:12.240 as mentioned in the catechism, like adultery, like sodomy, like persistent rebellion and criminal

00:43:21.520 behavior, may rise to capital crime level, but are not required, in my view. And defense for that

00:43:29.940 would be that in some instances in the kings um the kings um exiled homosexuals um rather than

00:43:37.060 um putting them to death um and so i would allow for exile in some respects but again that's not 0.93

00:43:43.020 putting somebody in a cage right it's sending them away out of the land banning them from the land

00:43:48.340 yeah and you're not you're not having to pay to feed them exactly they still have to support

00:43:52.580 We punish the innocent in our culture, in our society.

00:43:57.320 In the last category, most other crimes that are like property damage and maybe, you know, somebody who gets hurt, not killed, but somebody hurt.

00:44:07.880 Most other crimes, theft, property damage, and physical harm, God requires restitution.

00:44:15.160 He says, basically, put it back.

00:44:19.600 And it's a really glorious standard.

00:44:21.700 It's, this is actually based on the eye for eye, tooth for tooth, um, principle.

00:44:26.200 And, um, and what restitution is, is it's restoring, um, what you took damaged or harmed,

00:44:31.660 um, and ordinarily plus double.

00:44:35.360 So if you stole somebody's car, um, you have to return the car or the same value of the

00:44:40.860 car and what you intended to do to your brother is to be done to you.

00:44:44.440 And so that same value or the same car is to be doubled and given to the brother and

00:44:49.300 then you're done.

00:44:51.700 that's it. That's it. Um, and it's glorious also because it's so humane. I mean, we talk about,

00:44:57.440 you know, moderns are so concerned about humane punishment and not, you know, not being inhumane

00:45:01.420 or whatever. Well, stop treating people like animals. That's right. Stop locking them up in

00:45:07.520 cages, um, for decades of their life with, you know, porn and cable TV and, uh, surrounded by

00:45:15.160 other gang members and like what could go wrong like it in the name of rehabilitation we are

00:45:22.380 basically ensuring that they will continue to act and live like animals for the rest of their life

00:45:27.000 which is i believe incredibly inhumane in addition to being just directly rebellious against god

00:45:32.520 and people don't think about that but it is far it it it attributes far more dignity to the criminal

00:45:38.020 to publicly beat him with rods based off of his crime

00:45:43.900 than to put him in jail for 12 years.

00:45:46.380 Yeah, put it right, make it right,

00:45:48.500 do the thing that needs to be done,

00:45:49.700 whether there is permission for beating and restitution.

00:45:55.420 Right, restitution in terms of damage and theft

00:45:57.500 and those kind of things.

00:45:58.100 But I'm thinking like if there was assault

00:46:01.060 or something like that,

00:46:02.000 like there would be some things where it's not so much just,

00:46:04.980 and it's never paying a fine.

00:46:07.000 the state doesn't get paid because you rob someone else why does the state benefit from

00:46:12.200 this person was robbed they they should benefit it's evil incentives yeah i mean the state is

00:46:18.600 sort of it's created a racket where they're like we get paid we get money right through this wicked

00:46:25.380 criminal justice system rather than what it should be which is pay the person you harmed

00:46:30.300 put it right with them there's they when a crime has been committed it has not been committed

00:46:35.800 against society. No, it's been committed against a person, a family, and that's who needs, you need

00:46:43.860 to make it right with them, which is also, also in a glorious kind of way, when we follow these

00:46:48.260 principles, there's an opportunity there for some measure of reconciliation. When you, when you put

00:46:53.680 it right, rather than just being locked away. And now my tax dollars, maybe I'm the victim. Now my

00:46:58.900 tax dollars are going to support this guy locked away, treated like an animal. And chances of

00:47:03.900 reconciliation are slim to nothing. You know, we hear the occasional story about somebody forgiving

00:47:08.440 somebody and that's glorious, but I think that's, we would see a lot more of that when the guy has

00:47:13.620 to bring back what he stole plus double and, um, and it's personal and you receive it. And I think

00:47:21.160 we would see a lot more healing. We talk about, you know, our society being so, um, having so

00:47:26.080 much animosity and so much brokenness, but I think we are creating the animosity by our prison system.

00:47:31.640 And so we need to return to just basic restitution, put it back. It's double ordinarily. This is also the law actually allows for if if a criminal repents, if they're before they're caught, before the cops catch them, if a criminal repents and brings back what they stole or admits that they damaged something, the restitution is actually it's cut.

00:47:56.660 And what you bring is you return what you stole plus only 20% of the value, a fifth of the value. 0.72

00:48:03.540 And so this, you know, Christians need to know about this because some Christians have 0.79

00:48:06.980 actually committed crimes in their lives. Maybe you never got caught or maybe it happened before 0.86

00:48:11.860 you were a Christian. Maybe as a kid, you stole something and you've sort of always been, it's 0.95

00:48:17.540 always eaten at you. Well, God tells you what to do. Return the value plus 20%. If it was a long

00:48:23.940 time ago, take into account some inflation, add that, add that to the 20%, add that to

00:48:30.480 the value, but, but that's what you're supposed to do. And then the law actually says that

00:48:34.280 if you can't find the person that you stole from, if you can't find them, if the, you

00:48:38.680 know, if you stole from a store and the store's closed down or, you know, there's a, it happened

00:48:42.660 to, you know, in elementary school and you have no idea where, you know, the, the kid

00:48:46.580 is that, you know, you stole his bike or you stole his shirt or whatever. The law says

00:48:51.700 to give it, give it as an offering to the Lord and it will be accepted.

00:48:55.700 So you can do restitution even then and just give it to the Lord.

00:48:59.080 And the Lord says, it's all taken care of.

00:49:01.480 Um, you've done restitution.

00:49:02.620 It's, it, um, it, it, this is restorative, um, but it's, you know, it, it just puts the

00:49:09.380 thing back, um, and, um, that, that has been broken.

00:49:13.660 That's good.

00:49:14.700 Um, one other thing with that.

00:49:16.360 So in terms of double restitution, if the thief steals, sometimes the thief steals because

00:49:20.620 he doesn't have much. And that's no excuse, but because he doesn't have much. And I can imagine

00:49:26.540 cases where he could not then afford to give the double restitution if he was caught. So is this

00:49:31.960 where a form of indentured servanthood would come in? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so the assumption

00:49:37.600 is, and it's provided for in scripture that if you have, you can't pay the debt, then you work

00:49:42.580 it off. And again, this is incredibly humane. What we are doing is we are dignifying a human being

00:49:50.720 with saying what you have done was wrong. You have moral agency, but because you're made in

00:49:59.000 the image of God, you have the power and the ability to put this right. And so you're going

00:50:03.840 to put it right, even if it takes you some years of working off this debt. So absolutely. And,

00:50:10.600 And, you know, remember, of course, we never have abolished slavery in our country, completely.

00:50:16.700 Back to the prison system, the 13th Amendment explicitly says that only the federal government can have slaves.

00:50:26.020 Only the state can have slaves.

00:50:28.480 In the 13th Amendment, the government, the civil government said we can be slave masters of criminals.

00:50:35.520 And that's what the penitentiary is.

00:50:37.240 That's what the prison system is. 0.66

00:50:38.900 It's a mass form of slavery.

00:50:40.220 And they take them out, and you see them doing road work and things like that, but they're not doing something for the individual that they actually committed the crime against.

00:50:48.540 That individual is getting no restitution.

00:50:51.300 They're going out and doing things for the state.

00:50:53.980 Right.

00:50:54.280 But I think it just goes to show that some form of servitude, some form of slavery is inescapable.

00:51:02.240 Right.

00:51:02.920 The only question is, are we going to follow biblical principles or not?

00:51:07.180 But in the case of an indentured servant who is working off a debt, we're dignifying that human being with the opportunity to work it off, put it right.

00:51:16.100 And then they walk away with a certain kind of human, and I mean this in a good sense, but like a certain amount of pride in saying, I did something wrong and then I put it right.

00:51:27.020 Rather than wasting away in a cell or maybe occasionally pick up trash on the side of the road.

00:51:32.880 But there's no sense of closure there.

00:51:35.380 There's no sense of, I did something wrong, and then I put it right, and now I'm back on my two

00:51:40.420 feet. Yep. All right, last thing, when it comes to, that's so good, Toby, thank you. When it comes

00:51:44.480 to righteous civil disobedience, okay, the clearest thing that we have, you know, like the

00:51:48.620 apostles, you know, we must obey God rather than man. So we would all, I think, just about agree,

00:51:55.360 I guess, you know, it's taken two years of learning this to get here, but I think most

00:51:58.840 Christians would agree, okay, when the civil magistrate commands us to do something God

00:52:02.720 forbids or forbids us to do something that god commands so we see both examples super clear in

00:52:06.300 the book of daniel uh the chapter three which adrek meshach and abednego they're commanded um to bow

00:52:10.820 down to commit idolatry and uh they refuse so they're commanded to do something god forbid

00:52:15.220 um daniel chapter six right the edict on prayer right it's and it's only temporary 30 days to

00:52:20.440 slow the spread of prayer you know and uh you know and if people just you know just 30 days

00:52:25.940 to slow the spread you know and and then and then the government will let up um but during that and

00:52:31.080 that was universal. It didn't just affect Christians. It was, you cannot pray to any

00:52:34.360 God or petition any man. So the atheists and agnostic were right there. It was universal.

00:52:39.140 But wrongful laws from the civil magistrate always affect Christians the most because

00:52:43.960 we're the ones who our law is the law of liberty. So Christians always, I think, suffer the most.

00:52:50.300 But anyways, the point is, Daniel chapter six, there's something God commands, namely prayer,

00:52:54.820 and the civil magistrate is forbidding. So whenever the civil magistrate commands what

00:52:58.340 God forbids or forbids what God commands, we must obey God rather than man. But when it comes to

00:53:03.620 being overtaxed or when it comes to wearing a mask, right? Or when it comes to these kinds of

00:53:09.260 things, right? So the infamous example would be Todd Friel with the pinwheels on the side of your

00:53:13.740 head, right? And I think Todd Friel was very stupid with that. And I think what you're saying 1.00

00:53:18.600 in your catechism is that if the civil magistrate commands pinwheels on the side of your head,

00:53:24.460 That's not something that God forbids.

00:53:26.080 And so you may, and I think that's key.

00:53:28.260 You're saying you may submit to that. 1.00

00:53:30.000 And if you're an idiot like Todd Friel on this matter, then you will submit to it. 1.00

00:53:34.540 But Todd Friel, don't make that a commandment for all Christians. 1.00

00:53:37.380 We may submit to it, but we don't have to submit to that.

00:53:41.460 And especially we don't have to submit to it if we're going to civilly disobey through

00:53:45.720 the proper avenue of a lesser civil magistrate.

00:53:48.280 So again, back to fear sovereignty, being a vigilante.

00:53:54.100 can't do that. So if somebody does something against me, I cannot, as a father within the

00:54:03.040 sphere of the household, I can't hunt that person down in the middle of the night and try to kill

00:54:08.780 them in order to, that's a vigil ante. I need to inform the state that you've got to go through

00:54:14.780 the proper avenue. However, if the person, if they're an intruder in my home, they're standing

00:54:18.220 in my home threatening my wife and children, I can shoot them in the head because now they're 1.00

00:54:22.980 in the sphere of, you know, that's a castle. I forget the law, but, you know, we have it here 1.00

00:54:27.300 in Texas. I'm sure you guys do in Idaho, but defending my castle, you know, I am a king in

00:54:32.120 my castle. They're in my domain. They've stepped into my sphere, the household. And so I have

00:54:35.960 authority there. And so a husband can't administer the sacraments to his children

00:54:40.400 on a Tuesday afternoon, you know? And so all these jurisdictions, all that said though,

00:54:46.200 So when it comes to civil disobedience, choosing to righteous civil disobedience to something that the government is not forbidding something that God explicitly commands, and they're not commanding us to do something God explicitly forbids, so the pinwheel example is a good one, we can disobey, and it would be ideal for us to disobey through a lesser civil magistrate.

00:55:11.520 So can you explain that to us, this doctrine of the lesser civil magistrate, going through the proper avenue?

00:55:18.100 Right, yeah.

00:55:18.540 So I think that there, what I'm saying is that when it's not expressly forbidden by God what's being commanded,

00:55:27.400 or it's not expressly commanded what is being forbidden, then we recognize that we are an area of wisdom.

00:55:33.280 There's a wisdom call there.

00:55:35.100 And that means then, I think, being strategic.

00:55:38.840 What we want to do is we want to maximize the glory of Christ. 1.00

00:55:44.460 And I think sometimes that will mean submitting to stupid decrees 0.98

00:55:48.860 because it's just clear that the way that the gospel is going to go forth right now 0.99

00:55:55.440 is submitting to some foolish things so that I can have the maximum punch for the gospel.

00:56:03.600 I think other times it'll be different. 0.93

00:56:08.200 Like I use the example of Gideon, who's hiding his threshing in the wine press from the Midianite tax collectors. 0.96

00:56:18.600 Again, I would use that as an example. 0.99

00:56:20.480 He was free to do that.

00:56:22.100 He didn't have to submit to unlawful taxation. 1.00

00:56:25.680 In our day, I think it's pretty stupid to be a tax evader. 0.99

00:56:30.020 even if I do believe that the tax rates are unbiblical and wicked. And I do. But I don't 0.99

00:56:37.500 see how you win in our day being a tax evader. But I would say Gideon did it, which means I

00:56:45.720 think that you can be and have a clean conscience. I'm just not sure it's smart. I don't think you're

00:56:53.400 going to win. And at the moment we have bigger fish to fry would be my general encouragement.

00:57:00.020 like, let's resist tyranny. Let's get them to stop killing babies first. Let's reform the prison 0.99

00:57:07.180 system. Let's do some of these big, heavy things. And maybe we completely gut the civil government,

00:57:14.480 like you said earlier, such that they don't need to have such high taxes. But we've been

00:57:19.460 acquiescing for a long time, taking all these benefits, letting the state basically be our

00:57:23.640 nanny. And then we suddenly object to high taxes. But nevertheless, you know, the mask thing or

00:57:30.080 other things like that, I would say you're free to disobey because God doesn't require us to wear

00:57:36.740 masks and we're free Christians. I also think we have the advantage of having a constitution that

00:57:42.460 protects those rights. And the constitution and our form of government is clear that the

00:57:47.940 Constitution is the highest government in our land, not judges, not governors, not county

00:57:54.500 commissioners, not health districts. And so I think we can obey Romans 13 by submitting to the

00:58:00.800 Constitution and saying, you don't have authority over my body that way. You don't have authority

00:58:05.440 over my health care decisions. But to your question in particular, the way that God has

00:58:12.280 intends for civil magistrates to be checked in the cleanest way is through other civil magistrates.

00:58:22.680 So all civil magistrates may have different roles, different jobs, and we may even speak of it in

00:58:29.800 some sense as a little bit of a hierarchy. But even lesser magistrates really are ordained by

00:58:37.800 God to do justice. So you may just be a sheriff or you may be a mayor or a county commissioner.

00:58:46.880 Or you might be Ron DeSantis pushing back on the president as a governor.

00:58:50.580 Exactly. Or you may be a judge or you may be a police officer. You may be any one of those

00:58:55.980 things. But the point is, is that God establishes civil magistrates and he gives them jobs. And if

00:59:02.340 you are a civil magistrate, even if you are a lesser one, you have still been ordained by God

00:59:07.720 to do justice. And if the guy above you is doing injustice, you're the first one in line

00:59:16.280 to hold that guy accountable. Your job is to uphold biblical justice and protect the people

00:59:22.680 under you. Now, you still need to use wisdom there in terms of how you exercise that authority.

00:59:29.120 But in the ideal world, the way that, and this goes back to the reformers and just war theory,

00:59:37.320 but we would hold that individuals, as you note, are not to be vigilantes or not to take justice into our own hands.

00:59:44.120 And this is why Christians have held for centuries that it is not right for any individual to take matters into his own hands

00:59:53.840 to try to get justice, or to revolt, or to usurp lawful government, except an extreme

01:00:01.600 self-defense, as you know. However, it is absolutely right and proper for lesser magistrates,

01:00:11.860 those rulers, and we see this oftentimes in the judges, for example, where God raises up judges,

01:00:17.880 and God uses them to push back his enemies and to defend justice and defend the poor.

01:00:27.760 And so what you want to be praying for specifically right now, I would say in our day, is godly lesser magistrates. 0.83

01:00:36.640 There's low level ways in which I think I would encourage Christians because of the Constitution,

01:00:41.900 because of the Bible, we ought to feel free if our city mayor reinstated some kind of

01:00:49.860 mask mandate. I know confidently that my elders would meet the next week and say,

01:00:56.840 we're going to church this Sunday and we will not enforce that decree. And my policy and my family

01:01:04.600 was during, uh, throughout, um, uh, mask mandate season here, um, was that we did not voluntarily

01:01:12.460 put on masks. Um, and when we were asked, we would, uh, or required to by somebody, we would,

01:01:19.440 um, determine at that moment, whether, uh, how big of a deal it was that we needed the service,

01:01:24.160 uh, or goods that we were there to get. Sometimes we would walk out and say, no, thank you. Um,

01:01:30.260 sometimes we might temporarily put it on because we needed to, uh, you know, get the goods or

01:01:34.560 service. But the point being that we wanted to actively lean against it. And I would encourage

01:01:42.280 people to be doing that. But I think the prayer should be that God would be raising up godly

01:01:46.720 mayors, godly county commissioners, godly representatives and senators and governors

01:01:51.980 and attorney generals who will stand up for us because then we can stand behind them and submit

01:01:58.100 to them as they lead us in real freedom. Amen. Let me go ahead and conclude this episode by

01:02:04.400 saying this. So what I hear you saying and kind of a general rule of thumb that I would offer to

01:02:08.580 people is I like how you mentioned the constitution and it's the highest civil magistrate in our form

01:02:13.720 of government. And by design, it's not a human official and it's not a living document. It is

01:02:17.900 still and it is sturdy and it's a document, not a human official. And it's the highest

01:02:22.680 in our land. It is the highest law of our land. But the reason why I think it's helpful,

01:02:27.760 everything that we went through and that you went over is because sometimes, you know, people think,

01:02:31.600 what about the Christian in North Korea? What about the Christian in China? And the beauty of

01:02:35.240 this, we can't merely, my point is, we can't merely argue from the position of, well, the

01:02:41.100 Constitution gives us this freedom. We want to have a theology, good biblical theology helps

01:02:46.880 people in all times and all places. And so if you're living, you know, even under tyranny and

01:02:52.920 an authoritarian, you know, government with a dictator, you know, or a communist government,

01:03:00.000 Even in that society, number one, you have freedom from the scripture, which is the highest

01:03:04.900 authority over all kings and kingdoms.

01:03:07.040 You have authority from the scripture to, you don't have to do, if your ruler is commanding

01:03:13.900 you to do something God forbids, you can say no.

01:03:16.020 If he's forbidding you to do something God commands, you can say no.

01:03:19.060 And when it comes to everything in between, then you can, not as a church, not as a family,

01:03:24.300 not as an individual, not as a church, storm the castle and resist. 0.86

01:03:28.420 but you can pray that God would raise up Christian, lesser civil magistrates within that government 0.94

01:03:35.120 that you can get behind them and in that avenue, go for it. And in America, so that's China or 0.98

01:03:41.040 something like that, but in America, we can exercise what I hear you saying, Tobin, correct

01:03:45.340 me if I'm wrong, but we can exercise the doctrine of the lesser civil magistrate, but we can also

01:03:50.140 frequently take use of the doctrine of, I haven't heard anybody say this, but you could maybe coin

01:03:55.040 the doctrine of the highest magistrate being the Constitution. In most cases, I don't even feel

01:04:01.660 like I have to find a governor or a mayor or a police officer or a sheriff to rally behind. 0.98

01:04:07.980 In many cases, because we were a Christian nation, currently apostatizing, but because 0.88

01:04:14.860 of our founding, I can just go not to find a lesser one to push back on this tyrant, 0.94

01:04:22.360 But I can supersede him and go straight to the highest civil magistrate, namely the Constitution, and say, you don't have that authority.

01:04:30.160 You don't have that authority.

01:04:31.160 I don't even need to find a mayor or – what do you think about that?

01:04:34.980 Yeah, I think we're free to do that.

01:04:37.320 The issue, though, is just that we have to be willing to take the consequences.

01:04:40.600 That we might not win.

01:04:41.980 We might not win.

01:04:42.700 Right.

01:04:42.860 And I think the Bible does urge us to be wise, and so I think there are times to resist and take the consequences, and there are times maybe to not resist because you realize that it's just not the moment.

01:04:58.620 Right. There are forms of tyranny that we may submit to because they don't forbid us from doing something God commands. They don't command us to do something God forbids. So we may, three options. We may submit or we may disobey, righteously disobey by executing the Constitution in America, the highest civil magistrate, but know that we might not win. And so we'd be best to disobey with the lesser and the highest, like appealing to the Constitution, but also with that lesser civil magistrate in our court helping us along the way.

01:05:24.580 And so this is exactly what happened, for example, in the American War for Independence. In the American War for Independence, what the colonies appealed to was the colonial charters that King George had made with them and his predecessors. He signed agreements with them, guaranteeing them colonial rights, that they had their own forms of local government. And it was those local governments, for example, that had the authority to tax them.

01:05:51.300 And they had. But according to those charters, Parliament did not have authority to tax them.

01:05:58.660 Parliament could ask their local governments for helping them to tax them. But what Parliament did

01:06:06.580 was it sidestepped their local governments and said, we're going to tax you directly.

01:06:11.540 And what they did was they appealed to the charter, the covenants that the King of England

01:06:16.660 had guaranteed to them, that guaranteed them local magistrates. And so when they rebelled,

01:06:22.720 it was those local magistrates that actually led in the rebellion and said, when they signed the

01:06:29.500 Declaration of Independence, it was lesser magistrates telling a superior magistrate,

01:06:34.680 the king, that he had broken covenant with them, and therefore they were declaring themselves

01:06:39.340 independent. Now, even in that situation, of course, they were taking a massive risk.

01:06:44.260 And they say that at the end of the Declaration of Independence, we swear to one another our fealty, knowing that our lives are at stake in this. They were all going to either, you know, they were going to hang together if they, you know, if they lost.

01:06:57.240 but it's but certainly the the weight of biblical and and just human wisdom would urge us to you

01:07:06.600 know do everything we can to make our resistance as strategic as possible and and i would say even

01:07:12.380 to the person in china who doesn't have the constitution you do have the word of god right

01:07:16.020 and um and to the extent that you can get away with civil disobedience i would say feel free

01:07:21.800 Yep. Amen.

01:07:23.200 Under God, you're free to.

01:07:24.660 You just need to recognize that, you know, if you get caught, you know, count the cost.

01:07:29.300 Count the cost.

01:07:29.700 You know, what level is this?

01:07:32.220 Super helpful.

01:07:33.180 Thanks so much for tuning into this episode.

01:07:35.240 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:07:41.100 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:07:45.940 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:07:49.320 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:07:53.360 this would be a great resource.

01:07:55.340 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com

01:07:58.860 slash offer.

01:07:59.940 And thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - May 18, 2022

BONUS - A Primer On Christian Government ｜ Theonomy - Part 5 of 6

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript