00:16:59.700And so you're arguing that the Ten Commandments, which would be the blueprint, right? That's the general equity that we find in all these civil commandments. But you're arguing that the Ten Commandments, all ten of them, including the first table, the first four, we can see that that is in natural law and can be seen by natural revelation? Would you agree with that?
00:17:19.420Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I don't think so, but part of the check here, of course,
00:17:24.660is that, um, as I, uh, said somewhere in here about natural law was that because of sin,
00:17:30.160um, we can't see it clearly. Um, and as you noted, we already have, we, we have knowledge,
00:17:36.000but we also have this moral, uh, depravity, which we, where it's, we have a, uh, incentive not to
00:17:42.340see clearly in our sin. And so, yes, it absolutely is there. You know, Psalm 19, so the heavens
00:17:50.180declare the glory of God. Romans 1 says, His invisible attributes are clearly seen. Everyone's
00:17:56.840without excuse. But in our sin, we also suppress that truth and unrighteousness. But I would say,
00:18:04.200yes, absolutely. The Bible tells us exactly what is resident in creation. And so I would even,
00:18:09.180you know, even something like the Sabbath command, um, God created the world in six days and rested
00:18:13.980on the seventh. Um, and that, so that's from the, from jump. So even that is embedded in the natural
00:18:20.440world. Um, so I think, and out of that, that being the blueprint, that's a, that's one of the 10
00:18:26.240commandments, part of the Decalogue, but out of that comes certain civil laws, like, like giving
00:18:29.980in the seventh year, right. I'm going to double, double production in the sixth year, but in the
00:18:34.820seventh year, give, give the land a rest. And that's not just something that God did with
00:18:39.480Israel that we still have these principles at play with agriculture today, that the land needs
00:18:44.240to rest if it's going to long-term be productive. And so meaning natural revelation, farming the
00:18:50.540earth, the soil, nature, what God has made teaches you the principle of a one in seven pattern of
00:18:56.760rest. That's right. Yeah. That's natural revelation. Exactly. And so if we're going to
00:19:00.920be, if we're going to take dominion wisely, we have to, we have to recognize that God is teaching
00:19:05.140Israel something that are important. Um, there, um, I believe that in some of these laws, there
00:19:10.300are what I would call ceremonial aspects that, um, that were tied particularly to the ceremonial
00:19:16.600system. Um, some of them are entirely ceremonial, like the sacrifice of lambs and goats, you know,
00:19:21.800from Hebrews that's fulfilled in Jesus. We don't need to do any more of that. But I think, um,
00:19:26.300like the Sabbath command, for example, would say, I think there were ceremonial elements to it.
00:19:30.920but i also think there were moral and civil elements i think it actually held all three
00:19:35.400together um and so what we're our job to do is to to to see okay god created the world this way so
00:19:42.440there is a principle here that goes all the way into creation and as you know scientists are busy
00:19:47.640telling us like you know agricultural uh specialists saying you can't just keep planting
00:19:51.960and and and harvesting every year and not give this land any rest right um so god was giving true
00:19:58.840moral wisdom about how to care for creation. Another example of sort of natural law at work
00:20:07.680from history would be the whole idea of mixed government. It goes back to the Greeks who first
00:20:15.180started positing this idea of what is a sort of a republic, which is what America was founded to be.
00:20:22.260And some of these early Greek philosophers said, you know, as we look at history, the societies tend to careen into ditches. And they careen into ditches basically, and work with me here in the analogy, into three different ditches.
00:20:38.800And there's sort of anarchy that breaks out when democracy goes to seed. There's tyranny that breaks out when monarchy goes to seed. And there's oligarchy that breaks out when you might call the elites or the hierarchy goes to seed.
00:21:00.520And so they said largely in most societies, you have sort of cultural elites, military generals, CEOs, you know, Jeff Bezos and, you know, you know, types.
00:21:12.700And then you have good ones like Elon Musk.
00:22:15.880then as the need is you can appeal it to a higher level otherwise you're going to burn out there's
00:22:21.220a check and a balance system being worked out there you also have just the distinction between
00:22:25.920actually the priesthood and civil government being slowly emerging it's it's a little mixed together
00:22:31.960but it's not quite as confused as a lot of moderns think Moses does some things that Aaron doesn't do
00:22:38.760and Aaron does some things that Moses doesn't do and that's actually getting worked out by the time
00:22:43.180of the kings where you've got, you know, King Uzziah, for example, thinks he's going to go
00:22:47.060right into the temple and offer incense. And there's an armed priestly guard that ushers him
00:22:52.800out. And he's struck with leprosy or usurping that distinction between what we would now call
00:22:58.400church and state. They are both under God. They both answer to God, but they have different
00:23:04.800jurisdictions. So, but basically I would say there's rudimentary principles of separation
00:23:10.400of powers and representative government that you find in scripture that we need to honor but i think
00:23:14.760we can also learn from human experience and the speculation of even greek pagans who say you know
00:23:21.720this is how you know societies tend to go corrupt what if we tried to balance out those those
00:23:27.200instincts in what they call a mixed or a blended government which is i think what the our christian
00:23:33.160fathers sought to do here in america was say let's take these biblical principles let's also take
00:23:38.060some of this, what we would call natural law and common law principles and seek to apply them in
00:23:43.360the best possible way. Yep. Well, one further thought on natural law real quick. So natural
00:23:49.620revelation revealing to us God, his existence, his holiness, the things that he requires from us.
00:23:56.080And that being synonymous, this natural law written on the hearts of men, right? So,
00:23:59.680so the 10 commandments, I've always, the 10 commandments have not, they did not come into
00:24:03.820play at Mount Sinai written on tablets of stone, but they were written on hearts that to Adam and
00:24:08.500Eve were given 11 commandments, 10 commandments and one positive precept that if Adam had never
00:24:13.400eaten of the fruit, but he murdered Eve, the covenant of works or covenant of life would
00:24:17.460have been broken. Right. And so, so what, you know, we, we have these written on the hearts
00:24:21.360of men, this natural law that stems from natural revelation. Um, but because man, because of the
00:24:25.920fall, because of sin, right? The image of God is tarnished, a vestige remains, but the image of
00:24:30.220God is tarnished. So John chapter three, Jesus is the light of the world, but men loved the darkness
00:24:35.240because their deeds were evil. But I was wondering this, I'm curious your thoughts. I've thought
00:24:39.660about this a little bit lately, but I haven't read anybody on the subject. So man, the image of God
00:24:46.360in man is tarnished because of sin. So man's ability to interpret natural revelation is
00:24:53.080flawed because he has a bias, namely towards sin. But could you argue that natural revelation itself
00:24:59.920what God has made. Also, it continues to speak, and it continues to speak something true about
00:25:05.520God, but that at times that it might speak something that is less than true because
00:25:09.560creation itself is under a curse. Meaning that if I go out into the world and I look at the world,
00:25:15.220I'm seeing things that are true about God because the world contains still God's good
00:25:19.400and wonderful design, but the world is also put under a curse that creation itself groans
00:25:24.780under this curse of sin. So I feel like there are times where I've... So this is what I'm
00:25:29.140getting that. So the person who would say, well, you know, well, you do find homosexual relationships
00:25:34.460in nature sometimes, you know, or, you know, a praying mantis, you know, the female praying
00:25:41.240mantis will eat the head off of its mate after coitus, you know, like, and I guess what I want
00:25:46.240to say in that is say, you know, but when we look at the millennial kingdom and we look at Isaiah
00:25:51.080chapter 65, you know, the leopard and the lamb lying down together, what I want to say is that
00:25:56.500that nature speaks something about God, natural revelation, and it is sufficient to condemn.
00:26:03.120We need special revelation for salvation, but it's sufficient to condemn because it says something
00:26:07.000true and something that is somewhat exhaustive. It doesn't just say one or two things. It says a lot
00:26:13.000about God that is true, but even not only is man himself under the curse of sin and therefore
00:26:18.620flawed in his ability to interpret natural revelation, but the nature itself under a curse
00:26:24.880sometimes says things that may not be true of God because nature isn't, it's speaking truth
00:26:31.740about God, but it's not speaking as clearly as it was meant to. What do you think about that?
00:26:37.060Is that out of bounds? I think it's pretty straightforward, man. I'm with you. I think
00:26:41.480the fact that God pronounces a curse on the ground and says it's going to grow thorns and
00:26:46.340thistles, that a woman giving birth is going to experience more pain, that there's going to be
00:26:54.020more enmity and animosity between um people and between the earth and people and between god and
00:27:00.880people i think all that together combines to arrive at exactly what you're talking about i
00:27:04.940think i think it it does speak truly and it's sufficiently to tell us what we you know that
00:27:10.120there is a god and that we need to turn to him um but uh but i do believe you're absolutely right
00:27:15.120i think it is it is groaning under the weight not only of that curse um but also groaning under the
00:27:20.900weight of our failure to properly rule it and take dominion of it. And so I think creation spoke
00:27:28.880truthfully in the beginning, but part of the command to take dominion and make the world
00:27:32.840fruitful also implies the idea that we were actually supposed to make creation in a certain
00:27:38.040sense speak even more clearly about the glory of God. As we take dominion and we make the world
00:27:44.200beautiful and orderly and we care for it, it speaks even more truly. And so that's why creation
00:27:49.580groans for the redemption of the sons of men, Romans 8, so that it will come into its own. It
00:27:55.160will finally be the glory that it was created to be. So I think you're absolutely right.
00:27:59.860Amen. So creation is not groaning for a mercy killing from the Lord to dissolve like snow
00:28:04.940in the literal sense. No, it wants to be made new and better.
00:28:09.600Amen. All right, let's do this. We got to do this question, 38. What is the difference between
00:28:14.220preventative and punitive justice? That's so helpful. Can you talk about, because I've heard
00:28:18.780you guys with CrossPolitik, and I've been on the show a couple of times with you guys, but
00:28:22.140you especially, between you and Chalk Knox and Gabe, just talking about, yeah, you're not going
00:28:28.640around looking for crime. And part of what I think in that, and I know I probably got this from you,
00:28:33.420but if it's just punitive and not preventative, right? You don't have the thought police and you
00:28:38.180don't have the ministry of truth that Biden's now setting up, the disinformation council,
00:28:42.880I mean, just Orwellian stuff. Guess what? You don't need as many employees paid by the state.
00:28:47.220like one way to get a smaller government is to, to stop doing the, the what was it called? The
00:28:52.680Tom Cruise movie, the minority report or something where they're trying to, you know what I mean?
00:28:56.640Like, it's just this eerie kind of thing and they got it wrong. The whole purpose of the movie was
00:29:01.600that they didn't see the future correctly. Go ahead. Right. Yeah, no, that's right. That's
00:29:05.800like preventative justice gone completely, you know, bat crazy. But the, yeah, so the classic
00:29:14.660law that I would point to that's used by many people who want to apply the general equity of
00:29:22.260the law is the law that required Israel to have a banister or railing around the roofs of their
00:29:32.520houses. But what you find there is, and the reason for that is this is an application of
00:29:38.740the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, which means that you are also required to reasonably
00:29:44.780seek to protect the lives of those around you, not cause them harm. And in ancient Israel,
00:29:50.260and still the case to this day in many Middle Eastern countries, the porch, the balcony is
00:29:56.560actually the roof of the house. Most houses are constructed in those countries as a flat roof,
00:30:01.340and they were required to have a railing around the roof. And it says in the law there that if
00:30:06.220they don't have a railing and someone falls off the roof, they are held liable for that bloodshed.
00:30:12.560It's a, you know, a form of you were not protecting the lives of your neighbors. Now, so
00:30:20.720the principle there would be then, so somebody, you know, initially, you know, so how does this
00:30:25.800apply in the modern day? Well, I would say, well, if you have a flat roof and you hang out on your
00:30:29.500roof, you need to have, you need to have a railing. And it's not tyranny for the civil government to
00:30:34.400say you need to have a railing around your roof if that's where you hang out. In American culture,
00:30:39.880we don't typically hang out on our roofs, but we have balconies and we have swimming pools and
00:30:44.720ponds and lakes and places like that, or maybe, you know, a steep incline. And if that's your
00:30:50.860part of your property and that's where people hang out, it is a reasonable requirement of the
00:30:55.700civil government to say you need to have railings there to protect the lives of people that are
00:30:59.680hanging out there. But to our point in terms of preventative and punitive, it's reasonable for
00:31:05.500them to require that of houses and property. But what you don't find in ancient Israel is
00:31:12.800home building inspectors. There's no penalty for not having a fence. There's no penalty for not
00:31:21.600having a railing. They're commanded to, but there's no penalty for it. So they may be sinning by not
00:31:28.660having a railing. But they're not committing any crime yet. The crime comes in is if they're
00:31:35.800having the party, and somebody falls off, and they are hurt. It does say there, you'll be held
00:31:41.760liable for that blood. If it's, if it's just an injury, then they can be required to do
00:31:47.440restitution to pay for, you know, the medical expenses of the person who was harmed. And if
00:31:53.000they died, presumably, depending on how negligent it was, they could be liable all the way up to
00:31:59.100death. Because if it was massively negligent, then they basically did murder. But the point
00:32:08.600to preventative and punitive is that same principles that work. The Bible establishes
00:32:15.260this general equity, this basic principle that says the civil government certainly may have
00:32:20.540book laws on the books that require reasonable protection of human life, but it does not have
00:32:27.700the authority to come into my home and see if I've done it. It only has authority to do that
00:32:33.660if there's, if there's been harm or damage done to somebody. So they, they would presumably if I
00:32:40.400have a, you know, I have a, I actually have a, I have an upstairs balcony in my house and I have
00:32:48.360a railing around it, but if I didn't have a railing around it and there were people in my
00:32:52.320house and we were having a party and somebody fell off and got hurt or died, then you really
00:32:58.700would have, the civil magistrate would have the right to come in and see what happened and check
00:33:04.000my house and hold me liable for that negligence. But what you're absolutely right, the principle
00:33:10.780there though is that punitive justice means that the civil magistrate, again, this goes back to the
00:33:16.160job that God has given the civil magistrate. His job is to punish evildoers. It seems that
00:33:21.440the most he could do is put some, in terms of prevention, he can put laws on the books that
00:33:27.280would provide, you know, that say you need to do this, you should have a fence around your swimming
00:33:32.080pool, but he doesn't have the authority to come out and check and see if I've done it.
00:33:37.280He only has the authority to check and see if I've done it if something bad has happened,
00:33:41.500because his job is to punish criminals or if somebody accuses me of doing something bad and
00:33:46.340I didn't do it you know I didn't do it I you know someone could accuse me of negligent and he could
00:33:51.400he could come out and say oh no but he's got a fence but it's not not constant inspections
00:33:58.100not you know regulations and fines which is what we live in if you if you you know build a house
00:34:05.040these days and many counties and states you find out just how a tyrannical of a state we live in
00:34:10.600police state we live in, that, you know, you do not have the right to do what you want on your
00:34:14.600private property unless you pay thousands of dollars and get inspections and permits from
00:34:20.220your local county and cities. That's, that's wicked. That's, that's against God's word.
00:34:28.160It's, it would be fine, in my view, biblically for the county to have basic law codes that they said,
00:34:34.720this is um you know this required this is for health and fire hazard safety um that was reasonable
00:34:43.840but then they don't they shouldn't have any authority though to check and see if i did it
00:34:48.480unless something bad happens right and then if something if if a crime is suspected that has
00:34:54.000occurred then sure they can inspect and see did i take reasonable precautions to protect life or not
00:34:58.560But that ought to be based on biblical law and common sense, not, you know, you have
00:35:07.300to have studs, you know, 16 inches apart and, you know, I had a, as we were building our
00:35:13.560house, I had an inspector tell me that in a small closet bathroom that my toilet was
00:35:20.180too close to the sink and we had to tear out a wall and redo the bathroom, you know, because
00:35:27.100it was only like 25 inches away or something like that. And code said 30 inches. Um, but you know,
00:35:32.860that's, that's, um, that's called living in a police state and it's tyranny and it's not freedom.
00:35:38.320And I don't, I think we've just gotten used to it and we, you know, we've just sort of said,
00:35:41.700all right. Um, I, you know, and this is how Joel, I'm sure you know this connection, but this is
00:35:46.940how we end up with mask mandates and vaccine mandates. Um, we've been, uh, complying with
00:35:54.440preventative law for decades in this country. We've been complying with it, even though the
00:35:59.160state doesn't have authority to do it from God. Um, they've been acting like tyrants from debt
00:36:05.280for decades, doing inspections, doing preventative stuff, saying you have to do this. And the,
00:36:10.220and the defense is, well, something bad might happen. Um, and, um, they, they don't have that
00:36:16.440authority from God. They don't have that authority, um, from, uh, natural law or common law. Um,
00:36:23.540they have the, they have the authority to punish when crimes have actually occurred. Um, and, um,
00:36:29.040and, but if you don't, if you let that keep going, you end up with them saying, well, um, a mask
00:36:34.060might help prevent losing life. And you, you don't have anything to say back to that. And then two
00:36:40.940years later, they say, whoops, I guess it didn't help. Yeah. Well, I don't even know if they've
00:36:46.080completely admitted that. The CDC has said that, uh, not with the N95, but like they, but they have
00:36:50.720said any cloth mask a cdc member said was a facial decoration it turns out did no good
00:36:57.240right after two years until they changed their mind again right uh but you know but this is
00:37:03.020also why you know you have to get a vaccine you have to you know they're invading our our private
00:37:07.640our private property and our family government which is what that is that we've talked about
00:37:11.480the family government previously it's the family government's job um to protect private prop to to
00:37:16.700do what we want on our own private property to protect the health and welfare and education of
00:37:22.560those that God has entrusted to us. It's not the state's job, but we've been acquiescing for
00:37:26.700decades on this. And then when they come and say, well, now you need to have this thing on your
00:37:30.360face or you need to get this jab. You know, we lost the argument decades ago because we did not
00:37:37.340guard the distinction between preventative and punitive justice. That's super helpful. One thing
00:37:42.600I want to say about, uh, just on that point, and then I have another question, but punitive and
00:37:46.300preventative, I think it's also helpful, um, that the listener understand that, um, punitive does
00:37:51.260have a preventative effect. So it's not going around policing. Um, but, but when justice is,
00:37:58.240um, is administered swiftly, um, the rest shall stand in fear. And, and we see that even when
00:38:04.680it comes to, uh, within the, the, uh, the sovereign sphere of the church that, um, you know,
00:38:10.020like, so 1 Timothy 5, if an elder persists in sin, rebuke him publicly so that the rest shall
00:38:16.380stand in fear. And so when justice is delayed, that actually causes, so what we see, what we
00:38:23.560ultimately see is the exact, and it's what we should expect as people rebel against the Lord,
00:38:28.660but we see the exact perversion, the exact opposite of what got it. So we have lots of
00:38:33.640policing, the preventative stuff. And then when crimes are actually committed, justice is delayed
00:38:39.800People sit on death row for decades, eating up taxpayer dollars, you know, and then people get slaps on the wrist, you know, and so blah, blah, blah.
00:38:50.100So if we actually punished criminals properly and swiftly, proportionally, impartially, all those things that the Bible says, then you kill two birds with one stone.
00:39:02.760number one, you don't need near as many government officials to carry out that ministry
00:39:06.300as you do to go around and spy on everybody and regulate everybody. If you just deal with actual
00:39:12.620crimes that have actually been committed, one, you can immediately have a smaller government.
00:39:16.960You want to fix the economy? Boom. Everybody pays less taxes, but we're out of inflation.
00:39:21.520Everything's immediately fixed there. And it is still preventative if it's swift and proportional.
00:39:26.300Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. Somebody kills somebody and all of a sudden
00:39:31.900that person is being hung in the public square where we can all see. And that is just, and that
00:39:38.400is good, and that is right, and it curbs the actions of the wicked. So there is a preventative
00:39:46.300effect of punitive justice. And so it kills two birds with one stone with a lot less government
00:39:51.680employees. And so praise God for that. His word is always good. In addition to that, can you talk
00:39:57.840to us about the lesser civil magistrates. So we talked about, you know what, actually,
00:40:01.900before we get there real quick, jails. Talk to us about jails.
00:40:07.040Yeah, okay. There are hardly any of them in the Bible. And frequently when we find them,
00:40:15.420they're only used to lock up good guys. Joseph, Daniel and his three friends, Paul.
00:40:26.200Where do we see in the Bible an example of, you know, an endorsement, a helpful endorsement of prisons or jails?
00:40:37.260The closest thing I can think of is you have something vaguely reminiscent in cities of refuge, but there, they're not locked up in a cage.
00:40:49.700someone who has accidentally killed somebody
00:40:53.680not intentionally but accidentally killed somebody who wants to flee from
00:41:17.040could, you know, do what Boaz does, marry a widowed woman and raise up offspring for
00:41:24.320a dead relative, or could also carry out justice if a family member was murdered wrongfully.
00:41:33.940But God sort of regulated that allowance by saying, but if it was really an accident,
00:41:38.520you can flee to a city of refuge and you can remain there. The elders of the city will inquire
00:41:43.600and confirm and make sure that it really was an accident and you're not a murderer who needs to
00:41:47.440be held liable. If they find that and there's concern for your life, you could remain in the
00:41:52.080city until the high priest dies and your life will be safe there. But again, you weren't locked
00:41:56.860up in a cage and it was not for actually a crime you committed. It was to protect you from the
00:42:01.040blood avenger. Otherwise, I think the only other use I can think of that is sort of reasoning by
00:42:07.360sort of good and necessary consequence would be, I think it certainly would be reasonable to hold
00:42:12.140a murderer while they're having a trial, or another dangerous, violent criminal, a rapist,
00:42:18.000or something like that, I think a temporary holding cell seems reasonable while they're
00:42:23.540awaiting trial. But again, back to your point, if we're following biblical rules of justice,
00:42:28.200the trials should be fair, judicious, but also relatively swift. And then the penalty should
00:42:35.960be carried out swiftly, not taking decades, and so forth. So the issue, the problem, though, is,
00:42:43.580is that we have rejected biblical restitution. So basically, the Bible, there's, there's death
00:42:53.840penalty for capital punishment, capital crimes, capital murder, and, and I would say, other
00:43:01.560violent crimes, like rape, would commonly be taken care of by execution. Other crimes,
00:43:12.240as mentioned in the catechism, like adultery, like sodomy, like persistent rebellion and criminal
00:43:21.520behavior, may rise to capital crime level, but are not required, in my view. And defense for that
00:43:29.940would be that in some instances in the kings um the kings um exiled homosexuals um rather than
00:43:37.060um putting them to death um and so i would allow for exile in some respects but again that's not
00:43:43.020putting somebody in a cage right it's sending them away out of the land banning them from the land
00:43:48.340yeah and you're not you're not having to pay to feed them exactly they still have to support
00:43:52.580We punish the innocent in our culture, in our society.
00:43:57.320In the last category, most other crimes that are like property damage and maybe, you know, somebody who gets hurt, not killed, but somebody hurt.
00:44:07.880Most other crimes, theft, property damage, and physical harm, God requires restitution.
00:46:07.000the state doesn't get paid because you rob someone else why does the state benefit from
00:46:12.200this person was robbed they they should benefit it's evil incentives yeah i mean the state is
00:46:18.600sort of it's created a racket where they're like we get paid we get money right through this wicked
00:46:25.380criminal justice system rather than what it should be which is pay the person you harmed
00:46:30.300put it right with them there's they when a crime has been committed it has not been committed
00:46:35.800against society. No, it's been committed against a person, a family, and that's who needs, you need
00:46:43.860to make it right with them, which is also, also in a glorious kind of way, when we follow these
00:46:48.260principles, there's an opportunity there for some measure of reconciliation. When you, when you put
00:46:53.680it right, rather than just being locked away. And now my tax dollars, maybe I'm the victim. Now my
00:46:58.900tax dollars are going to support this guy locked away, treated like an animal. And chances of
00:47:03.900reconciliation are slim to nothing. You know, we hear the occasional story about somebody forgiving
00:47:08.440somebody and that's glorious, but I think that's, we would see a lot more of that when the guy has
00:47:13.620to bring back what he stole plus double and, um, and it's personal and you receive it. And I think
00:47:21.160we would see a lot more healing. We talk about, you know, our society being so, um, having so
00:47:26.080much animosity and so much brokenness, but I think we are creating the animosity by our prison system.
00:47:31.640And so we need to return to just basic restitution, put it back. It's double ordinarily. This is also the law actually allows for if if a criminal repents, if they're before they're caught, before the cops catch them, if a criminal repents and brings back what they stole or admits that they damaged something, the restitution is actually it's cut.
00:47:56.660And what you bring is you return what you stole plus only 20% of the value, a fifth of the value.
00:48:03.540And so this, you know, Christians need to know about this because some Christians have
00:48:06.980actually committed crimes in their lives. Maybe you never got caught or maybe it happened before
00:48:11.860you were a Christian. Maybe as a kid, you stole something and you've sort of always been, it's
00:48:17.540always eaten at you. Well, God tells you what to do. Return the value plus 20%. If it was a long
00:48:23.940time ago, take into account some inflation, add that, add that to the 20%, add that to
00:48:30.480the value, but, but that's what you're supposed to do. And then the law actually says that
00:48:34.280if you can't find the person that you stole from, if you can't find them, if the, you
00:48:38.680know, if you stole from a store and the store's closed down or, you know, there's a, it happened
00:48:42.660to, you know, in elementary school and you have no idea where, you know, the, the kid
00:48:46.580is that, you know, you stole his bike or you stole his shirt or whatever. The law says
00:48:51.700to give it, give it as an offering to the Lord and it will be accepted.
00:48:55.700So you can do restitution even then and just give it to the Lord.
00:48:59.080And the Lord says, it's all taken care of.
00:50:40.220And they take them out, and you see them doing road work and things like that, but they're not doing something for the individual that they actually committed the crime against.
00:50:48.540That individual is getting no restitution.
00:50:51.300They're going out and doing things for the state.
00:51:02.920The only question is, are we going to follow biblical principles or not?
00:51:07.180But in the case of an indentured servant who is working off a debt, we're dignifying that human being with the opportunity to work it off, put it right.
00:51:16.100And then they walk away with a certain kind of human, and I mean this in a good sense, but like a certain amount of pride in saying, I did something wrong and then I put it right.
00:51:27.020Rather than wasting away in a cell or maybe occasionally pick up trash on the side of the road.
00:51:32.880But there's no sense of closure there.
00:51:35.380There's no sense of, I did something wrong, and then I put it right, and now I'm back on my two
00:51:40.420feet. Yep. All right, last thing, when it comes to, that's so good, Toby, thank you. When it comes
00:51:44.480to righteous civil disobedience, okay, the clearest thing that we have, you know, like the
00:51:48.620apostles, you know, we must obey God rather than man. So we would all, I think, just about agree,
00:51:55.360I guess, you know, it's taken two years of learning this to get here, but I think most
00:51:58.840Christians would agree, okay, when the civil magistrate commands us to do something God
00:52:02.720forbids or forbids us to do something that god commands so we see both examples super clear in
00:52:06.300the book of daniel uh the chapter three which adrek meshach and abednego they're commanded um to bow
00:52:10.820down to commit idolatry and uh they refuse so they're commanded to do something god forbid
00:52:15.220um daniel chapter six right the edict on prayer right it's and it's only temporary 30 days to
00:52:20.440slow the spread of prayer you know and uh you know and if people just you know just 30 days
00:52:25.940to slow the spread you know and and then and then the government will let up um but during that and
00:52:31.080that was universal. It didn't just affect Christians. It was, you cannot pray to any
00:52:34.360God or petition any man. So the atheists and agnostic were right there. It was universal.
00:52:39.140But wrongful laws from the civil magistrate always affect Christians the most because
00:52:43.960we're the ones who our law is the law of liberty. So Christians always, I think, suffer the most.
00:52:50.300But anyways, the point is, Daniel chapter six, there's something God commands, namely prayer,
00:52:54.820and the civil magistrate is forbidding. So whenever the civil magistrate commands what
00:52:58.340God forbids or forbids what God commands, we must obey God rather than man. But when it comes to
00:53:03.620being overtaxed or when it comes to wearing a mask, right? Or when it comes to these kinds of
00:53:09.260things, right? So the infamous example would be Todd Friel with the pinwheels on the side of your
00:53:13.740head, right? And I think Todd Friel was very stupid with that. And I think what you're saying
00:53:18.600in your catechism is that if the civil magistrate commands pinwheels on the side of your head,
00:53:24.460That's not something that God forbids.
00:53:26.080And so you may, and I think that's key.
00:53:30.000And if you're an idiot like Todd Friel on this matter, then you will submit to it.
00:53:34.540But Todd Friel, don't make that a commandment for all Christians.
00:53:37.380We may submit to it, but we don't have to submit to that.
00:53:41.460And especially we don't have to submit to it if we're going to civilly disobey through
00:53:45.720the proper avenue of a lesser civil magistrate.
00:53:48.280So again, back to fear sovereignty, being a vigilante.
00:53:54.100can't do that. So if somebody does something against me, I cannot, as a father within the
00:54:03.040sphere of the household, I can't hunt that person down in the middle of the night and try to kill
00:54:08.780them in order to, that's a vigil ante. I need to inform the state that you've got to go through
00:54:14.780the proper avenue. However, if the person, if they're an intruder in my home, they're standing
00:54:18.220in my home threatening my wife and children, I can shoot them in the head because now they're
00:54:22.980in the sphere of, you know, that's a castle. I forget the law, but, you know, we have it here
00:54:27.300in Texas. I'm sure you guys do in Idaho, but defending my castle, you know, I am a king in
00:54:32.120my castle. They're in my domain. They've stepped into my sphere, the household. And so I have
00:54:35.960authority there. And so a husband can't administer the sacraments to his children
00:54:40.400on a Tuesday afternoon, you know? And so all these jurisdictions, all that said though,
00:54:46.200So when it comes to civil disobedience, choosing to righteous civil disobedience to something that the government is not forbidding something that God explicitly commands, and they're not commanding us to do something God explicitly forbids, so the pinwheel example is a good one, we can disobey, and it would be ideal for us to disobey through a lesser civil magistrate.
00:55:11.520So can you explain that to us, this doctrine of the lesser civil magistrate, going through the proper avenue?
01:04:42.860And I think the Bible does urge us to be wise, and so I think there are times to resist and take the consequences, and there are times maybe to not resist because you realize that it's just not the moment.
01:04:58.620Right. There are forms of tyranny that we may submit to because they don't forbid us from doing something God commands. They don't command us to do something God forbids. So we may, three options. We may submit or we may disobey, righteously disobey by executing the Constitution in America, the highest civil magistrate, but know that we might not win. And so we'd be best to disobey with the lesser and the highest, like appealing to the Constitution, but also with that lesser civil magistrate in our court helping us along the way.
01:05:24.580And so this is exactly what happened, for example, in the American War for Independence. In the American War for Independence, what the colonies appealed to was the colonial charters that King George had made with them and his predecessors. He signed agreements with them, guaranteeing them colonial rights, that they had their own forms of local government. And it was those local governments, for example, that had the authority to tax them.
01:05:51.300And they had. But according to those charters, Parliament did not have authority to tax them.
01:05:58.660Parliament could ask their local governments for helping them to tax them. But what Parliament did
01:06:06.580was it sidestepped their local governments and said, we're going to tax you directly.
01:06:11.540And what they did was they appealed to the charter, the covenants that the King of England
01:06:16.660had guaranteed to them, that guaranteed them local magistrates. And so when they rebelled,
01:06:22.720it was those local magistrates that actually led in the rebellion and said, when they signed the
01:06:29.500Declaration of Independence, it was lesser magistrates telling a superior magistrate,
01:06:34.680the king, that he had broken covenant with them, and therefore they were declaring themselves
01:06:39.340independent. Now, even in that situation, of course, they were taking a massive risk.
01:06:44.260And they say that at the end of the Declaration of Independence, we swear to one another our fealty, knowing that our lives are at stake in this. They were all going to either, you know, they were going to hang together if they, you know, if they lost.
01:06:57.240but it's but certainly the the weight of biblical and and just human wisdom would urge us to you
01:07:06.600know do everything we can to make our resistance as strategic as possible and and i would say even
01:07:12.380to the person in china who doesn't have the constitution you do have the word of god right
01:07:16.020and um and to the extent that you can get away with civil disobedience i would say feel free