The NXR Podcast - BONUS EPISODE - A Baptist Case For “Christian Nationalism” ｜ Defining the Terms - Live w Pastor Joel Webbon

00:00:00.000 All right, listen, guys, I get it.

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00:00:37.100 take the time to do so. Thank you so much. God bless. Christian nationalism or global trannyism.

00:00:44.960 those are the choices christian nationalism or the global homo jihad those are the choices

00:00:54.200 i think what we keep forgetting in this discussion is that it is not whether but which

00:01:00.960 it is not whether but which today i'm going to be talking about christian nationalism

00:01:07.640 i'm going to be defining my terms as a baptist i'm going to be doing so particularly from a 1689

00:01:16.540 london baptist second second london baptist confession of faith position as someone who

00:01:23.700 is covenantal as someone who is reformed as someone who is presuppositional rather than a

00:01:30.000 tomist aka god wrote a book i'm a fan of the book natural revelation natural law arguing from reason

00:01:38.500 is perfectly fine i understand the position but i am a presuppositionalist stephen wolf is a tomist

00:01:46.140 i'm going to argue from my position not his i'm also going to be arguing from a kyperian standpoint

00:01:52.680 all of christ for all of life as a general equity theonomist again general equity theonomist which

00:02:01.460 is perfectly compatible with the 1689 the general equity of the civil codes still remains it has to

00:02:09.460 be properly applied with prudence but it remains even for new testament times this church age and

00:02:17.700 i'm also going to be arguing for christian nationalism from a baptist perspective with a

00:02:23.300 post-millennial eschatology that's my position but from the outset before defining my terms and

00:02:29.700 theologically showing you the path in which i take to get underneath this christian nationalist

00:02:34.860 banner that i don't even really want to advocate for myself i'd rather simply just say hey i'm of

00:02:42.060 the mere chrissidom sort that's much more my position doug wilson his kind of his vein a mere

00:02:48.460 chrissidom sort and just a general equity theonomist but christian nationalism i didn't

00:02:55.440 pick it out of the hat it wasn't my choice for a label but that's the debate that's going on right

00:03:01.040 now and i'm willing to wear the label because you can you either have christian nationalism 0.54

00:03:08.900 or globo transism you're going to have global homo jihad you're going to have progressive

00:03:18.220 godless globalism or christian nationalism it again again it's not whether but which 0.76

00:03:24.400 let me say this and then we'll go ahead and dive in i'll give a couple announcements up front

00:03:28.220 i would rather have a christian government that is arguing and debating over what the proper

00:03:36.060 institution of sabbath laws are than a government that is arguing and debating over what age we

00:03:44.780 should sexually mutilate children that's what i think guys keep forgetting in this discussion

00:03:52.840 they're they're arguing as though the choices between christian nationalism 0.99

00:04:00.360 and something else that we they forget that this something else that this classical liberalism

00:04:07.860 idea is something that we no longer have so they're arguing as though the two choices are

00:04:14.680 christian nationalism or this this just wonderful freedom that everybody has and we're all respectful

00:04:21.540 about those aren't the two positions we need to argue between christian nationalism on the one

00:04:28.140 hand and and then the other actual real viable option that we currently have which is insanity

00:04:36.100 christ or chaos what i'm arguing when i say christian nationalism um i know that there are

00:04:44.640 going to be some challenges i'm not saying it's easy and i'm not saying that there will be no

00:04:49.280 casualties i'm not saying that there won't be mistakes making i i'm not saying any of that

00:04:55.580 yeah you're going to have to figure out blasphemy laws but i would rather have a debate about how

00:05:02.180 to to figure out christian blasphemy laws and what those penalties are and what the lines are

00:05:10.140 what what what is outside the bounds and what's permissive i'd rather have the debate about

00:05:15.620 blasphemy laws from a christian standpoint than then from a woke crt intersectionality

00:05:24.020 transgender baby murdering abortion standpoint again here's the key as we go into this conversation

00:05:32.460 it is not whether but which that's what i think a lot of our brothers keep forgetting 0.97

00:05:39.080 it's not whether you have blasphemy laws but which ones you will in any society you will be

00:05:47.580 canceled for certain kinds of speech you will so the question is which kinds not whether or not

00:05:55.760 something is off limits that you're not allowed to say but which things are off limits you will

00:06:02.320 penalize someone you will legislate some form of morality the question is by what standard

00:06:14.380 by what standard so yes i would rather have christian nationalism which will have a host

00:06:21.720 of complexities and arguments and problems and challenges and failures i will admit that

00:06:30.120 there will be failures but but here's what we're trying to beat right now right there'll be failure

00:06:37.560 he just admitted it that there'll be failures with christian nationalism there will be

00:06:41.600 but it will be a vast improvement from the failure of 60 million dead babies

00:06:49.120 that's what we're trying to work from right now i think we're forgetting the starting place

00:06:55.580 we're forgetting what time it is the sons of issachar they knew the times see there were some

00:07:03.380 dear brothers in the lord and they are brothers they're not heretics they are brothers i think

00:07:09.240 they're wrong but they're brothers but they're advocating that we go back to a certain form of

00:07:16.200 culture and government and political thinking but that what they don't realize is that it's something

00:07:23.760 that never really was viable in and of itself it had the thin veneer the optic the visual

00:07:32.460 of viability and working because classical liberalism appeared to work for a long period

00:07:40.320 of time, but in the scope of history, a very brief period of time because it was riding off

00:07:46.540 the fumes of a prior Christodom. Some of the things that are being presented right now,

00:07:52.940 see, that's the thing. You've got guys in the body of Christ saying, we don't like Christian

00:07:57.020 nationalism we don't like post-millennialism we don't like theonomy we don't like christians

00:08:04.180 wielding political power in this way or that way

00:08:08.280 but they're not presenting another solution and if they are it's not serious it's not serious

00:08:19.180 it's just saying we see a problem with christian nationalism we want to warn people about the

00:08:23.420 problems and the potential danger we see with christian nationalism without presenting any

00:08:28.300 alternative and the the alternative that occasionally might get presented

00:08:32.760 falls squarely within this classical liberalism

00:08:36.200 category not recognizing that that appeared to work and for a relatively long period of time

00:08:46.400 decades, over a century, arguably, depending where you count. But again, it worked because

00:08:55.060 we had a generally moral population. We don't have that, guys. Brothers, sisters in the

00:09:05.540 Lord, Baptists, and Pietist Presbyterians of the Westminster Escondido sort, all of

00:09:13.640 you please i'm begging you i'm not trying to be mean i'm not trying to do hashtag based stuff

00:09:19.400 right now i am begging you as a brother in christ wake up you need to know what time it is

00:09:26.680 we live now and only spiraling increasingly all the more in a negative world not a neutral one

00:09:36.320 A negative world, a hostile world.

00:09:43.140 And if we refuse to fight, if we refuse to wield the little bit of influence we still have left, 0.98

00:09:53.860 the little bit of power and political will that Christians still have, 0.79

00:10:00.440 i i think that history will look back and say that that we made one of the most foolish mistakes

00:10:08.760 within church history that has ever been made in western civilization i don't want to do that

00:10:16.700 i don't want to sabotage the future of my own grandchildren the world is becoming hostile

00:10:26.420 certain principles that appeared again they had the veneer the optic of viability in the past not

00:10:33.560 that long ago just a few decades ago they only appeared to be viable because under under the

00:10:41.660 hood what you had in western civilization especially in america was a generally moral

00:10:49.020 population not each and every individual i'm speaking in terms of groups that the overarching

00:10:56.020 population of america just a few decades ago had a general sense of morality not perfect

00:11:03.360 but a general sense of morality it is not the 1950s anymore and you can't get back there

00:11:11.520 you you can't the 1950s only happened where did they come from where did this time period come

00:11:21.620 from? Let's get that again. Well, what it came from is the 1950s is just a very brief moment in

00:11:29.720 time as Christendom is eroding. You don't get the 1950s back by shooting for, setting your sights,

00:11:38.100 your aim, right? You don't set your sights on the 1950s to get the 1950s back. You have to set your

00:11:46.800 sights on the scripture all of christ for all of life you have to set your sights on on christian

00:11:56.100 government christian society christian culture the immutable unchanging and perfect standards

00:12:05.380 of god's law that that's you have to shoot for that and by god's grace if he would be so kind

00:12:12.720 achieve that the 1950s wasn't an achievement it was a brief window as two ships in the night

00:12:23.180 were slowly passing by each other one rank paganism and wickedness paganism and wickedness

00:12:32.760 the other chrysidom and as this one was going out to sea and this one was coming in to the dock

00:12:40.940 there was a brief moment where they both passed by and you had the appearance a brief appearance

00:12:48.120 that neutrality was viable but that neutrality isn't something that has its own foundation

00:12:56.980 it's not something that you can shoot for and achieve that neutrality is merely the appearance

00:13:06.360 of a neutrality that only occurs in the big scope of things very briefly and it occurs only when

00:13:14.260 one god is on his way out and a new god is on his way in when the true triune god is on his way out

00:13:25.640 and a nation is on their way of apostatizing and the new gods which is really just the rise

00:13:33.940 of the old gods are on their way in and when you're at that halfway point where there's still

00:13:40.300 some chrysidom left but there's some paganism coming in that's where you get the appearance

00:13:46.760 the brief optic of neutrality it's not an indefinite position it's not a viable position

00:13:55.760 it's not a long-standing position it doesn't work it's just a moment it's just a moment

00:14:03.360 because these two other things something's happening there christendom and paganism

00:14:10.740 christendom and paganism if we want if we want a moral country if if we want 0.73

00:14:22.320 a nation that that isn't trying to sexually mutilate children and and murder babies in the

00:14:30.160 womb and all kinds of atrocity and wokeism and critical race theory and intersectionality and

00:14:38.680 all these different things, you don't cast out that degree of darkness

00:14:44.760 with a less degree of darkness. You don't cast out the dark with dusk. You cast out the dark

00:14:57.700 with dawn the rising of the new sun you cast out darkness with light so sentiments of you know like

00:15:09.080 scott annual one of his recent tweets where he said i want to see more christians in government

00:15:15.580 good i like that but then he goes on to say i want to see more christians in government

00:15:21.020 so that we can stop wicked laws pagan laws but not so that we can legislate and execute

00:15:30.780 christian laws and that was it that's the idea that that's that's his point

00:15:40.320 that that is deeply concerning that is deeply concerning let me break that down it's simple

00:15:49.640 but let me break it down he's saying okay fine christians can be in government that's a good

00:15:54.240 thing i'll concede that point and we'd like to have while we're at it the more the merrier lots

00:16:00.440 of christians real christians not just nominal christians but solid christians in government

00:16:04.800 praise god but to what end to stop the pagan nonsense not to legislate christian righteousness

00:16:14.800 now again let me let me rephrase it now so you can see what's being said he's saying i want

00:16:22.340 christians in positions of authority and power so that they can cast out darkness

00:16:28.080 but i want them to do it without using light

00:16:31.520 i want christians to cast out darkness even at a civil level in the civil sphere

00:16:40.300 but you're not allowed to cast out darkness you you do whatever you want to cast out darkness

00:16:46.080 and you got to get it done the one thing you're not allowed to use though is light

00:16:49.960 that's where we are in the debate so i want to frame the debate again from the outset

00:16:57.840 it's not whether but which the reason why this whole christian nationalism conversation is on

00:17:04.600 the rise again because some we're forgetting we're getting bogged down in some of the details

00:17:08.700 where, you know, emotions are tight and high

00:17:12.820 and people are, you know, are being a little bit rude

00:17:16.180 and there's even been some ways

00:17:17.880 that I could have worded things better myself, personally.

00:17:20.500 I'm willing to admit that.

00:17:22.640 But I think we're forgetting how we got here.

00:17:25.520 Why are people talking about Christian nationalism?

00:17:28.920 Why weren't they talking about it even just five years ago?

00:17:32.860 What happened in the last three years

00:17:35.080 to spur on such a discussion?

00:17:38.700 what why am i hosting the theonomy and post post-millennialism conference

00:17:44.120 and we sold out six months in advance i'm not a big name i'm not a celebrity i've got a few

00:17:55.520 thousand views you know followers on youtube that's about it why are people coming out of

00:18:03.620 the woodworks to to entertain something like theonomy or post-millennialism or christian

00:18:11.940 nationalism because the west lost its mind that's why so again from the outset framing 0.96

00:18:20.880 this conversation remember remember why we're having this conversation they're killing babies 0.97

00:18:28.280 guys they're castrating boys guys

00:18:33.900 they're tearing down monuments

00:18:38.440 they set the nation on fire literally in mostly peaceful protest in the summer of love 2020

00:18:52.680 Joe Biden

00:18:56.320 is our president

00:18:58.060 Dylan Mulvaney

00:19:02.180 went to the White House

00:19:04.300 they're doing pride parades

00:19:10.760 in thongs 1.00

00:19:13.040 with dildos 1.00

00:19:15.120 there's drag queen 1.00

00:19:18.720 story hour

00:19:20.080 for kids

00:19:22.440 in public libraries

00:19:25.780 and we want to talk about how God's law

00:19:34.300 and theonomy is dangerous

00:19:37.100 what

00:19:43.600 I feel like R.C. Sproul

00:19:46.340 what's wrong with you people

00:19:48.360 what's wrong with you 1.00

00:19:51.120 they're transiting kids and we want to talk about whether or not we should use god's law

00:19:58.040 yeah there are problems i get it i i'm aware of church history

00:20:03.920 i'm aware of what the paedo baptist did to the credo baptist i am and it's serious and i'm not

00:20:10.080 making light of it i'm aware cutting out tongues putting putting ministers faithful ministers of

00:20:20.480 the gospel in a little dark hole i'm aware of the spanish crusades i am aware

00:20:28.260 that abuse is entirely possible in fact i i would go further and say that it's not just

00:20:38.800 possible it's inevitable but again here here's the framework for this whole conversation

00:20:47.860 guys it's not whether but which we're not arguing between the 1950s would we rather have the 1950s

00:20:56.920 or christian nationalism we don't have the 1950s what i'm considering theologically pastorally

00:21:07.940 as a father as a husband what i'm considering right now is not i'm not considering the choice

00:21:16.420 between the 1950s and theonomy i'm considering the choice between christian nationalism

00:21:24.980 and tranny globalism that's the debate and don't let anyone tell you otherwise

00:21:34.200 we are moving in to a negative not neutral that was a brief moment in time two ships passing at

00:21:43.120 sea. One going out, one coming in, one being Christendom leaving and the other paganism

00:21:49.220 arriving. And when those ships overlapped, it was a brief moment in time that gave the momentary

00:21:56.280 veneer, optic of neutrality. But that is not a longstanding viable position. It will either be

00:22:05.680 the christian god or the old pagan gods returning jesus cast out a demon and he said when a demon

00:22:16.440 is cast out it goes through waterless places arid places but if it comes back and returns and finds

00:22:26.340 that the house has been swept clean and put in order but it's empty it will bring with it seven

00:22:33.140 other demons more evil and terrible than itself and the latter state of the man will be far worse

00:22:41.440 than the former do you know what christ does he cast out demons he binds the strong man

00:22:49.960 and that's what he did in israel during his earthly ministry israel was full of demons

00:22:56.040 because they were living in rebellion and unbelief toward God.

00:23:02.860 And Jesus arrives on the scene and he's casting out demons left and right.

00:23:08.460 This works with individuals.

00:23:09.900 The principle also applies for societies, for nations.

00:23:16.640 Christ in America cast out demons.

00:23:21.300 He did.

00:23:22.760 Christendom, what it does, just like Jesus in his earthly ministry,

00:23:26.560 because it is Jesus, it's his truth, his gospel, his law, his principles.

00:23:33.660 What Christendom does is it comes, whether it be with an individual or society,

00:23:38.780 it comes and it removes the demons.

00:23:43.420 And I'm talking about literal demons.

00:23:46.160 It removes demonic ideology, demonic pagan gods,

00:23:51.400 demonic cultures with demonic rituals and demonic traditions and demonic practices

00:23:57.920 it removes that and then it begins chrysidom it places things in order it sweeps the house clean

00:24:06.420 so first it empties it of demonic false gods the house is now empty then it puts the house in order

00:24:12.420 but here's the problem if a nation then says okay thank you chrysidim for removing

00:24:21.700 those old tyrannical evil wicked gods that oppressed us thank you for that thank you for

00:24:29.980 liberating us freeing us and emptying our house our national house from the demonic gods and thank

00:24:37.340 you for putting everything into order and sweeping it clean but now we would like you christ we would

00:24:44.820 like you to go as well we don't want you here either we want an empty house jesus point is that

00:24:52.800 if you do that the house won't stay empty it's not whether the house is filled

00:24:58.920 it's which deity will it be filled with you will have chrysidom or after chrysidom comes in

00:25:12.040 removes the false gods and puts the house in order if you remove christ then you will have

00:25:20.060 the old gods come back seven times worse than before and you'll have those old gods now working

00:25:27.460 with a house that's been swept clean and put in order what do i mean by that in national terms

00:25:31.500 well what has chrysidom accomplished what did it order i'm talking about medicine

00:25:37.140 science government military grade weapons

00:25:45.900 technology media these are all the fruits of chrysidom you know that right guys you realize

00:25:57.000 that why is the west been so successful with technological advancements advancements in science

00:26:04.560 and medicine because of jesus because all truth is god's truth because you're going to make more

00:26:12.980 advancements and discoveries when you believe when you have the christian world view and believe

00:26:17.580 that the world we can expect to discover certain patterns and systems because it was designed

00:26:23.720 by an orderly god and not the product of random chaos in evolution in atheism it's the christian

00:26:34.320 worldview that swept the house clean and put it into order but here's the thing not only will you

00:26:40.800 get seven demons now if you remove christ instead of one but those seven demons are coming into a

00:26:47.400 clean house a house that's been ordered you're talking about demons coming back but not coming

00:26:54.160 back to a nation that previously was in the stone age or the bronze age or you're talking about

00:27:00.260 demons coming back seven times the demons coming back to a nation a house that now has nuclear

00:27:06.960 weapons that now has social media that now has artificial intelligence

00:27:14.640 what will the result be and how do you stave off that potential danger and threat

00:27:24.600 what is the standard that you can raise against it when the enemy comes in like a flood

00:27:30.980 what is the standard it's not classical liberalism it's not democracy or sacred democracy

00:27:38.480 it's christ all of christ not just the gospel that's the tip of the spear but all of christ

00:27:47.220 both law and gospel to all applied to all of life not just our private pretty little hearts

00:27:55.040 but all of society the arts and medicine and government culture the whole nine yards all of

00:28:01.860 Jesus for all of life. That's the standard that the Lord raises against the enemy when he comes

00:28:08.580 in like a flood. It's the only hope we have. I'll start defining our terms from a Baptist perspective

00:28:15.500 of Christian nationalism as a post-millennial, as someone who holds to general equity theonomy

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00:30:50.080 All right. So let me go ahead and start defining some terms. I wrote this a few days ago on Twitter

00:30:57.440 in response to another tweet from Scott Annual from G3 Ministries. And I'm going to go ahead

00:31:04.180 and have Nathan, my assistant, pull it up on the screen so that those of you who are watching on

00:31:08.860 youtube can follow along if you're listening to the podcast uh that's totally fine i'm going to

00:31:13.520 read it so you'll be you'll be all right i said no more talking past each other from now on i am

00:31:19.540 fiercely committed to clarity and providing definitions for my position unfortunately and

00:31:24.800 i will concede right now many christian nationalists are um not being clear now i i don't

00:31:31.080 think the opponents are being that clear either um but they're not being clear they're just we

00:31:35.500 we want we just want a christian nation what's so bad about that well of course you know every

00:31:39.820 christian you would think uh wants a christian nation and so that is true that is a true statement

00:31:45.000 um but what does that mean so the christian nationalists are going to have to do a better job

00:31:51.340 of explaining what what we mean by that i know what i mean by that and that's what i'm going

00:31:57.160 to share with you guys right now because it's not helpful to just have the little

00:32:01.400 cliche you know quips that that everyone can agree with you have to be clear about what you

00:32:13.140 mean so no more talking past each other i want to be fiercely committed to clarity and providing

00:32:19.040 definitions for my position parentheses unfortunately it means that my post will

00:32:24.320 have to be longer close parentheses scripture clearly prescribes the size of civil government

00:32:30.960 by clearly defining the role of civil government, because that's one of the objections. This guy

00:32:36.520 saying, well, we don't like Christian nationalism because we want a small government. Well, within

00:32:42.060 the Christian nationalist perspective, the argument really isn't for small or big government. The

00:32:49.220 argument is for government that is exactly the size it's supposed to be as defined by scripture.

00:32:56.040 Now, how do you get that from scripture? How do you get the size of government? You get the size

00:33:00.540 of government by limiting the roles of government so this is what you do biblically you say what

00:33:08.300 does scripture say government exists for what is god's instituted purpose he's designed for

00:33:16.620 government and then you determine okay to execute not what what we want government to do but and not

00:33:24.640 what government wants government to do but what god wants government to do then how how big of a

00:33:31.800 government do we need and you make sure that the government is no smaller than it needs to be in

00:33:37.420 order to obey god's prescription for government you don't want it any bigger than it needs to be

00:33:43.020 but you also don't want it any smaller you want government not to be larger and not to be smaller

00:33:49.060 you want government to be the exact size it needs to be in order to obey god that's the concept very

00:33:56.880 simple so first you have to look to what does god call command government to do and it's very clear

00:34:05.520 romans chapter 13 government civil government the family that sphere in society is a government

00:34:12.460 the church is a government right we have familial government we have ecclesiastical government but

00:34:17.860 what I'm talking about specifically right now is civil government, the civil government sphere.

00:34:22.820 It has been instituted by God. It's not man's design or man's idea. It was instituted by God

00:34:28.320 himself. It's in scripture and its purpose, the commandment that God has given it, it exists for

00:34:34.540 this reason is to punish evil and praise the good, punish evil and praise the good. So that being

00:34:43.720 said i went on in my tweet i wrote this scripture clearly prescribes the size of civil government

00:34:50.500 by clearly defining the role of civil government punish actual evil not policing potential evil

00:34:58.960 right there you're going to have a smaller government than what we currently have punish

00:35:05.780 actual evil not policing potential evil here's some examples getting very specific defining my

00:35:12.700 terms. What that would look like would be no state-run schools, no public school. So what

00:35:22.020 does government exist for? To punish evil, not to educate children. Education belongs. We have

00:35:29.000 three spheres, the home, the church, and the state. Education has been given by God to which sphere?

00:35:36.000 the home familial fathers the family ephesians 6 fathers not state fathers but familial fathers

00:35:48.220 do not exasperate your children your sons but rather train them up in the instruction

00:35:56.520 and the paideia, the curriculum, the teaching, the fear of the Lord, the fear and admonition of the

00:36:06.380 Lord. That belongs to fathers. Fathers are called to educate their children. They will do this in

00:36:15.080 tandem, in partnership with the viceroy of the home, which is the mother. This is called

00:36:22.260 homeschooling. I believe it is also biblically permissible to have Christian schools outside of 0.81

00:36:28.720 the home, but where fathers and mothers are deeply involved. But the institution that has no

00:36:36.780 authority and no business whatsoever in educating children is the state. They punish evil. They do

00:36:46.240 not educate children so the size of civil government clearly defined by the role of civil

00:36:52.940 government punishing actual evil not policing potential evil this means no state or public

00:36:59.800 schools this also means no irs especially 87 000 extra irs agents that are armed with guns

00:37:13.300 no you don't need that so are taxes legitimate do we render unto caesar what is caesar's yes

00:37:22.860 that's biblical however when government gets smaller because it's not doing school

00:37:30.460 and as we'll see here in a moment it's not doing welfare and it's not doing a host of other things

00:37:37.320 that it's not called by god to do well then things cost less and you can be taxed less and if you're

00:37:45.360 taxed less guess what also happens taxes can be become much more simpler you don't have to have

00:37:53.120 thousands of laws in tax codes and you don't have to have a staff of thousands and thousands of

00:38:03.700 people namely the irs to ensure that the government's getting every single penny

00:38:08.500 that it thinks it's owed so no state public schools no irs what i would advocate for again

00:38:17.560 i'm sharing my position this doesn't represent everyone under the banner of christian nationalism

00:38:22.620 but what i would argue for would be a flat sales tax no income tax because it's not proportional

00:38:30.400 I don't believe that someone who works harder and, by God's grace, has been endowed with superior gifts, at least in the monetary sense, for producing wealth, that that person should be further penalized.

00:38:50.380 So the idea of different tax brackets for the wealthy and for the poor, I don't believe is a biblical notion.

00:38:57.400 a straight sales tax across the board now some people will purchase more than others

00:39:03.200 but you could be in theory and in practice it will work out rather easily you could be

00:39:10.200 significantly wealthier than your peers and yet live a modest life with your spending

00:39:17.440 and pay no more taxes now the sales tax would have to be significantly higher than it currently is

00:39:23.720 but it wouldn't be 50% or something like that. It probably would sit around

00:39:28.040 25 to 35% sales tax. And that would be enough to fund the government to do everything that God says

00:39:37.740 it's supposed to do. It would not be enough to fund the government to do everything it's doing

00:39:42.080 now because it's doing a lot of things that it's not supposed to be doing, but it would be enough

00:39:46.880 to fund the government to be strong to wield the sword competently and and strongly with strength

00:39:55.860 to both punish evil domestically criminals within our borders and to defend our borders

00:40:03.960 and to fend off threats of evil from outside foreign threats a military and police it would

00:40:14.300 be enough for that so a straight sales tax no property taxes either half of your property taxes

00:40:22.460 for the record go towards public schools now you would have to pay for a private school or you

00:40:29.460 would have to work with a single income home which i do believe is god's design for families and your

00:40:35.680 wife homeschooling your children but guess what you'd have a lot more money because you wouldn't

00:40:41.840 be paying near as much in taxes so the next no state schools no irs no state welfare provision

00:40:52.180 so we've talked about education which sphere does it belong to the state no the family now talking

00:40:58.800 about physical provision physical provision belongs again to the sphere of the church no

00:41:05.620 the family the family and the church is a backstop functions as a free safety

00:41:13.340 for individual impoverished christians when their families fail if someone doesn't work

00:41:22.960 if a man will not work scripture says let him not eat so the church doesn't give money

00:41:32.420 to people who are lazy when it comes to physical provision i hear people say this all the time it's

00:41:37.980 a massive biblical misconception they say well the state wouldn't have to be doing welfare if 1.00

00:41:43.240 the church would step up its game that is one of the most ignorant and stupid statements you could 0.99

00:41:50.040 make and if you made that statement you need to apologize and repent because it's wrong 0.99

00:41:55.260 now the reason that the church cannot cannot um right now financially uh handle carry the burden

00:42:06.380 in the united states of america there's no way why well one because the church has been depleted

00:42:13.620 many have apostatized number two because we have an epidemic of of people who need provision in

00:42:25.220 our nation far more than we should why because when the state does something it's not supposed

00:42:31.320 to do it does it poorly and the state taking care of welfare and taking that not from the church but

00:42:38.300 from families fathers has incentivized poverty and so now we have an epidemic of poverty and

00:42:47.060 the only way that it can be taken care of is by individual familial fathers. Fathers caring for

00:42:56.000 their families, caring for their wives, caring for their children, working hard and making

00:43:02.300 provision. No state welfare. Okay, so then what does the state do? It punishes evil. Now, I said

00:43:10.860 punishing actual evil not policing potential evil what do i mean by that i wrote this

00:43:18.540 that means swift and just retribution public hanging or a firing squad yes i'm getting very

00:43:28.560 specific with my terms i'm going to define my terms public hanging or firing squad for capital

00:43:35.900 offense for capital offense not for minor petty crimes but if somebody murders then yes they need

00:43:44.680 to lose their life that's the biblical principle life for a life that's in the noaic covenant

00:43:49.580 that's in the mosaic law that continues throughout in all places in all times for all people a life

00:43:58.360 for life. That is justice. So for capital crimes, you'd receive capital punishment and that capital

00:44:06.060 punishment shouldn't be sitting on death row for 20 years. It should be a fair trial that will take

00:44:14.840 some time, but it should be weeks, perhaps months, never years, never years. A fair trial, weeks,

00:44:24.800 perhaps months where you have fair opportunity for fair representation as the defendant

00:44:31.620 all these things take place but if you are found guilty in a court of law for a capital crime

00:44:39.640 such as murder you receive the death penalty and it should be public what the bible teaches

00:44:46.520 in terms of justice is this. It says when justice is delayed, that wickedness becomes rampant.

00:44:55.980 Wickedness increases when justice is delayed. So when you think of preventing crime, right? Because

00:45:02.560 I said the government exists to punish evil, not for welfare, physical provision, that's the family.

00:45:09.080 not for education state schools public schools that's the family the government exists to punish

00:45:18.160 evil but then i define my terms even more specifically by saying um and that means

00:45:23.460 punishing actual evil so first you have to have a standard god's law for defining what's evil and

00:45:29.260 what's righteous and it means punishing actual evil but then i specified even more this gets an

00:45:34.680 even smaller government, not policing potential evil. A lot of what we have outside of welfare,

00:45:43.000 that's a ton. IRS agents and crazy tax laws, that's a ton. When you think of government employees,

00:45:49.620 think public school, welfare agencies, and IRS. You get rid of those, you have already

00:45:58.260 substantially whittled down the state you have so we are talking about a smaller government than

00:46:05.920 what we currently have for sure but not a libertarian ideal not not not small government

00:46:13.800 just for the sake of small government i want a government that is much smaller than what we

00:46:17.640 currently have but is absolutely big enough to do what god commands government to do now so we've

00:46:24.240 already whittled it down we're going to whittle it down even further now punishing actual evil

00:46:29.660 not policing potential evil in biblical law case law god's moral law and the civil law given to

00:46:38.560 israel the principle that we see is this you don't see you don't see officers going around policing

00:46:47.340 investigating snooping looking for crime instead what you have is that when crime is known when

00:46:57.120 it's actually been committed they're brought before the judges a fair trial is had evidence

00:47:02.900 has to be presented eyewitnesses and more than one two to three independent lines of eye and ear

00:47:10.400 witness testimony when all those things have been done if a person is found guilty

00:47:15.880 then they're swiftly punished the punishment is proportional for the crime it's impartial

00:47:23.820 doesn't matter what ethnicity they are and it's swift it's swift and then how do you prevent

00:47:32.260 well you police over here with all these people to prevent future no that's the beauty you kill

00:47:38.340 two birds with one stone swift proportional justice prevents future crimes it does the

00:47:47.580 greatest preventing measure the greatest that the most effective method for preventing crime

00:47:55.480 is not having a bunch of of police force going around policing potential crime

00:48:02.000 Now, the best method, biblically speaking, for preventing, for dissuading the population

00:48:12.700 from committing outward manifestations of evil is for them to see what happens.

00:48:19.560 Swift, proportional, unbiased, impartial justice when evil is perpetrated.

00:48:26.620 it there's a reason why there were public hangings in the past and it wasn't it wasn't to be

00:48:35.460 um it wasn't to be cruel and it wasn't to be to embrace uh gore right and and for the record

00:48:44.400 in a theonomic christian nationalist society and you don't have to be a theonomist to be a

00:48:48.820 christian nationalist but i am i'm arguing my position in that kind of society um nobody's

00:48:55.080 forced to go when so when i say that there's public hangings or a public firing squad for

00:49:00.880 capital crimes i'm not saying um that the public is forced to attend it but i'm saying that these

00:49:08.780 things happen in the public square ideally in front of a courthouse so wherever the crime was

00:49:15.000 committed in that county the county seat that courthouse there would be a gallow and that

00:49:19.460 person would be publicly punished if you're a parent with young children that you don't want

00:49:24.040 to see that perfectly understandable you don't have to attend but there is public justice being

00:49:31.400 carried out swiftly swiftly and that's one of the primary means of preventing future crimes

00:49:39.620 continuing now this deters crime and it decreases the need for policing

00:49:45.600 and it would also abolish the majority of prisons why because you have capital punishment not death

00:49:55.260 row not feeding a murderer for 20 years on our tax dollars you have capital punishment for capital

00:50:02.140 crimes then for lesser crimes for lesser crimes if it's theft which would be a common crime you

00:50:09.680 have double retribution you pay them back the person who steals pays back

00:50:17.700 and if it's not theft let's say it's abuse some kind of assault something like that it's not

00:50:26.080 murder but it's also not theft then you would have and i know this is controversial but think

00:50:31.360 with me for a moment just think it's not whether but which you're going to have something some

00:50:36.960 kind of penalty what you would have is not a public hanging if it's not a capital offense but

00:50:42.220 you would have and not retribution if it's not stealing what you would have is certain fines

00:50:46.320 there would be fines for some crimes and in some cases not many but in some cases you would have

00:50:52.260 a public beating not a flogging but a public beating and again it would be public

00:50:59.680 not whether but which what's the alternative guys

00:51:05.960 oh it's so much more humane and it grants so much more dignity to take a full-grown adult adult man

00:51:15.600 and treat him like a pet put him in a cage give him a little water bowl and a food tray

00:51:23.760 three times a day a little potty area a little bed i have a pet tortoise for my my three girls

00:51:33.160 they love it um my tortoise's cage looks like your average prison cell that's how you treat

00:51:43.480 a pet not a human being even a criminal who's been made in the image of god no you know what's

00:51:50.540 demeaning degrading dehumanizing and robbing of dignity prison prison is and again by what standard

00:52:02.380 whose definition do we accept is it god's or is it progressive evolved man and what he thinks

00:52:10.220 is dehumanizing and what he thinks grants dignity well of course he thinks in our culture today

00:52:17.000 that's apostatizing from christ and from god of course he thinks that that uh free shelter

00:52:23.080 and free food is the way to go in fact that that think about this for a second that that is what

00:52:32.120 our progressive democrats are arguing for all of us not just criminals you'll own nothing and be

00:52:39.680 happy that everyone will get their little cell and you'll have universal income and universal housing

00:52:46.020 from cradle to grave universal education everything's paid for by the state everything's

00:52:52.740 covered what they want to do with criminals what they are doing with criminals they want to do with

00:52:59.020 the entire population because they think that that's good and that's the goal that people would

00:53:06.240 just be taken care of like pets like people can't actually produce men can't actually take care of

00:53:13.560 their family it's that it's the soft bigotry of low expectations as thomas soul and others have

00:53:21.440 so yeah to take a man out to the courthouse publicly and to beat him with rods because of

00:53:30.260 a crime that he's committed that does not deserve capital punishment but is serious and then to say

00:53:36.400 don't do it again and now you're free to enter back into society to be productive and to live

00:53:46.200 a meaningful life that is far more far more dignifying than what we currently do again this

00:53:54.520 whole conversation where is it coming from returning to god's law general equity theonomy

00:54:00.480 post-millennialism that thing optimistic eschatology that maybe things could improve

00:54:05.140 they could get better christian nationalism let's be a christian nation where's the conversation

00:54:09.340 coming from it's not whether but which this isn't this isn't an ivory tower conversation but some

00:54:16.120 guys are having it in in that way they're having it from an ivory tower no we're having this

00:54:21.340 conversation i'm having this conversation from from the position of of the current insanity that

00:54:27.060 we're that we're living in presently saying surely surely uh when when they're castrating

00:54:35.760 little boys maybe we could have a another conversation about greg bonson and and theotomy

00:54:42.960 are we ready for it now Westminster Escondido wasn't ready for it then

00:54:48.060 I mean listen to that that speech it's like a two-minute clip from Greg Bonson it's powerful

00:54:54.220 where he says we're locking our windows at night because the way that's the crime is skyrocketing

00:55:00.820 and you guys want want to anathematize theonomy at Westminster Escondido they silenced Greg Bonson

00:55:10.420 but you you've got these heresies creeping into the church and you want to talk about theonomy

00:55:17.060 we've got this going on in our society in our culture and you want to talk about theonomy

00:55:23.120 it's a powerful clip from greg bonson my question just a little old me joel webin my my my question

00:55:32.360 is just are we ready to have the conversation now westminster escondida was very clear that

00:55:38.640 they were not ready to have the conversation with Bonson 20, 30 years ago.

00:55:44.240 I'm wondering now, in 2023, after churches were locked down by the government,

00:55:52.800 after poison was mandated to be jabbed, injected into people's arms,

00:55:59.560 after drag queen story hour for kids,

00:56:03.240 after pornography in public libraries for kids,

00:56:06.600 after six million dead in the womb i'm just wondering now could we talk about some of the

00:56:16.320 stuff that that these guys tried to talk about earlier are we ready to be honest now have we

00:56:24.200 taken off the rose glasses now can we consider whether again i'm being honest here will there

00:56:30.760 be problems will there be things that we'll have to figure out yeah but what's the alternative

00:56:36.900 what is the alternative and you cannot present as a legitimate alternative a placeholder

00:56:45.000 and that's all classical liberalism ever was is a placeholder as two ships are passing each other

00:56:55.060 in the night. As Christendom is going out, as paganism is coming in, it gave the appearance

00:57:03.820 and the temporary appearance of neutrality. But neutrality is a myth. All I'm asking is,

00:57:13.860 are we ready to have that conversation now? Can we admit as Christians, as brothers in Christ,

00:57:18.140 that neutrality is a myth and that and that the state is going to wield power because it's

00:57:25.380 commanded by god to do so it's been given a sword by god and so is it going to wield that sword

00:57:33.020 according to god's standards or according to pagan standards so going on government should

00:57:44.340 only be as big as it needs to be for the size of the domestic population as well as the size

00:57:50.940 of foreign military threats. So how big should a government be? Big enough, given the size of the

00:57:58.060 population of that nation, big enough to punish domestic evil within the population, to guard

00:58:05.380 its borders, police its borders, and to have a military that is prepared for foreign threats.

00:58:13.240 there's your government because that's all government exists for that's all that i'm

00:58:19.920 arguing now that being said in terms of domestically punishing citizens for crimes

00:58:26.940 we do have to have a conversation about how what standard do we use for determining crimes

00:58:32.460 if government exists to punish evil we have to be able to define what is evil so let me continue

00:58:40.860 all of this is still accomplished i believe with a clear separation of church and state

00:58:46.480 that's another thing within my understanding my little

00:58:51.020 neck of the woods of christian nationalism what i'm arguing for my position is a clear separation

00:58:59.220 of of church and state and to be fair i don't know anyone in the christian nationalist side

00:59:05.340 of the argument that says

00:59:07.280 otherwise. I don't know one person.

00:59:10.600 Stephen Wolfe,

00:59:11.540 he's a Thomist.

00:59:13.380 He's not presuppositional.

00:59:15.460 Fantillion, he would hold to Aquinas.

00:59:18.200 He's Presbyterian. I'm

00:59:19.280 Baptist. He's not the biggest

00:59:21.280 fan of theonomy.

00:59:23.000 He's an optimistic all-mill. I'm post-mill.

00:59:25.780 Plenty of differences between us.

00:59:27.520 Stephen Wolfe is very clearly his

00:59:29.180 position, separation of church and state.

00:59:31.820 Two independent, autonomous,

00:59:33.720 sovereign spheres.

00:59:35.340 so we're not talking about an ecclesiocracy now this is where we need to this is another thing

00:59:41.320 where i think we're talking past each other we're missing this okay no one within the christian

00:59:48.160 nationalist side of the debate is arguing for an ecclesiocracy that would be a church-run state

00:59:54.560 or as our g3 brothers like to to say a protestant pope they've asked us about that several times

01:00:02.740 not once have we ever advocated for that and they know that so we're not talking about a a state

01:00:12.260 a church-run state with an ecclesiastical authoritative figure who sits in authority

01:00:19.520 over the state no ecclesiocracy okay so government should only be as big as it needs to be

01:00:27.720 all this can be accomplished with a clear separation of church and state but here's the

01:00:33.880 kicker absolutely no separation of christ and state every government get this every government

01:00:42.120 is theocratic every government is a theocracy it's not whether but which every nation has a god

01:00:51.500 so there is a massive difference between a theocracy and an ecclesiocracy an ecclesiocracy

01:00:59.160 is where there is no separation between the sphere of the church and the state and you have a state

01:01:04.740 that is run by an ecclesiastical figure by the church that's an ecclesiocracy that the christian

01:01:12.180 nationalist is not advocating for but stands firmly against however separation of church and

01:01:19.160 state good separation of christ and state bad and while we're at it that means a theocracy

01:01:28.480 we don't want christ to be separated from the state which means we want a theocracy

01:01:34.060 not an ecclesiocracy church-run state but a theocracy christ-run state a christian state okay

01:01:45.280 now what would that christian state look like what would be some of its theological distinctives

01:01:55.400 well for one it would be creedal at the federal level not confessional something like the apostles

01:02:04.280 creed nicene creed athanasius creed not confessional so it is not we the united states

01:02:11.480 of america are presbyterian holding to the westminster no we the united states are baptist

01:02:17.840 or lutheran or anglican no it would be a pan protestant pan protestant nation because i'm

01:02:26.580 arguing again for christian nationalism and catholicism i believe denies the gospel

01:02:32.960 so when i say christian nationalism i mean a pan protestant movement a pan protestant movement

01:02:41.840 but not a particular denomination within at a confessional level within protestantism

01:02:48.420 but rather a creedal commitment a creedal allegiance at the federal level so it would

01:02:55.560 be we the united states are christian and what do we all agree with we believe in god the father

01:03:01.900 Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. We believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was

01:03:08.900 conceived by the Virgin Mary, born of the Virgin Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit. He suffered

01:03:15.740 under Pontius Pilate. He was crucified and died, was buried. He rose again on the third day from

01:03:22.300 the dead. He ascended to the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From there He will return to judge

01:03:28.060 the living and the dead we believe in the invisible and universal church with the holy

01:03:34.060 spirit and the invisible and universal church lowercase c catholic church the forgiveness of

01:03:40.340 sins the communion of the saints the the life the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting

01:03:46.720 amen got a little bit out of order there but that's the basic gist my point is that creedal

01:03:52.600 commitment is something that every protestant christian can affirm every protestant christian

01:03:59.080 can affirm so what do we mean by no separation of christ and state it means that the state is

01:04:04.700 christian what do we mean the state is christian we mean there's a public allegiance all right one

01:04:11.080 nation indivisible under god under god we're saying that but we're saying that with a little

01:04:18.160 bit more specificity which god the triune god the christian god jesus who is jesus well we're not

01:04:28.860 going to get too specific to where we're now splitting denominations but within this pan

01:04:34.280 protestant project we're going to say well what will tell you about jesus for certain at the

01:04:39.440 federal level is this that he suffered under pontius pilate he was conceived by the holy

01:04:44.780 spirit born of the virgin mary he was crucified and he died and he bodily rose from the grave and

01:04:51.220 he ascended to the right hand of god the father almighty that's what we're advocating for that's

01:04:56.580 that's what we mean okay so now the church has been given the keys word sacrament church discipline

01:05:08.000 the state has been given the sword executing earthly justice the important question is whether

01:05:14.640 or not the moral law that would be all ten commandments is merely um is merely for christian

01:05:24.160 people or for all people and that's the big question and and you know we're figuring this

01:05:34.400 out having to argue about this as brothers in christ but the christian nationalist position

01:05:39.660 is that the state should legislate all 10 commandments not just the second table of the

01:05:48.520 law as it's been called commandments 5 through 10 dealing with our love for neighbor but also

01:05:54.160 the first table of the law commandment 1 through 4 dealing with our love for god you shall have

01:06:00.500 no other gods before me what would be an example right now something that would not be permitted

01:06:06.420 in a christian nation if we returned if this christian nationalism project worked out well

01:06:13.560 one thing that would not be allowed is right now i believe it's minneapolis or minnesota

01:06:19.840 or minneapolis minnesota the same thing i i can't remember the city but but an article just came out

01:06:27.080 that they just had a ruling that they're going to have um an islamic call to prayer

01:06:32.800 five times a day that they're actually going to have a siren um city-wide city-wide um that is

01:06:43.540 uh islam and it's public um so you can't have you know christian nationalism

01:06:52.400 but it's minneapolis but you can have muslim nationalism so when i say a christian nation

01:07:01.660 a public allegiance creedal the apostles creed at the federal level what i'm saying is we're

01:07:08.420 holding all 10 of the commandments and what does that mean it doesn't mean remember everything i've

01:07:13.880 said thus far about not policing it doesn't mean that you're going into people's private homes

01:07:18.200 to see if they're worshiping a false god it means in the public square there are no high places

01:07:25.400 there are no high places there are no altars built to the false gods so so what's something

01:07:34.600 that an example that would not be permitted a call to muslim prayer citywide yes that would be

01:07:42.340 illegal and if somebody did it anyways that would be a crime and it would be punishable

01:07:48.160 and we would have to work through and understanding what that punishment is

01:07:53.440 taking the general equity of the civil law applying it looking at penalties but understanding this is

01:08:00.500 case law many of those penalties for the record that's another thing we need to understand well

01:08:04.460 will the penalty for idolatry is death i understand one of the things that we also

01:08:09.300 need to understand this conversation about god's law with with nations adhering to it and civilly

01:08:16.620 at the civil level legislating it in this gospel age is we need to understand that there is

01:08:23.040 something to be said for maximum penalties so in the state of texas you know you'll see a sign i

01:08:30.240 forget the exact number but you know um if you litter right it's a penalty up to two years in

01:08:37.560 prison and a $5,000 fine. Now, I don't know hardly anyone in Texas that's thrown a wad of paper out

01:08:46.560 their car window and is currently serving hard time in prison, is in jail for two years. It's

01:08:53.740 a maximum penalty. It's legal under the law. It could happen, but it rarely does. But it's there

01:09:01.240 for what for big littering and more likely for repeat offenders so it's one thing to say 1.00

01:09:11.280 um well homosexuality biblically should be punished by death yes

01:09:15.440 that is a maximum penalty that's a maximum penalty we don't have one historic account 0.99

01:09:23.560 from all the historic writings biblical and extra biblical of israel ever stoning a son

01:09:30.100 for dishonoring his father but that was one of the laws that was one of the laws

01:09:36.440 this is a maximum offense and that's not because israel didn't obey in that instance they had

01:09:42.480 plenty of disobedience but that's not the reason why this is a maximum penalty one with real

01:09:47.220 penalties evil is deterred it deters evil it dissuades people from doing that which is sinful

01:09:54.720 so that's one and then number two there are repeat offenders and three what we're primarily

01:10:02.640 talking about is the distinction between sin and crimes right so even with the second table of the

01:10:07.900 law well the 10th commandment is thou shall not covet we're not going to have the coveting police

01:10:11.480 somebody's not going to be in jail for coveting

01:10:14.180 it's a sin but it's not a crime now there are multiple factors at play but the chief one

01:10:22.980 the big rule of thumb to consider when determining a sin and a crime the difference between the two

01:10:29.240 is private versus public private versus public so public idolatry having a buddhist temple

01:10:39.820 erected that would be a crime in a christian nation a city-wide call to islamic prayer 0.77

01:10:46.800 would be a crime in a christian nation now talking about homosexuality going back to that 0.91

01:10:52.960 gay pride parade is a crime. Drag queen story hour is a crime. Pornography would be a crime. 0.97

01:11:03.040 Pornography in schools for children, of course, would be a crime. Somebody privately doing

01:11:10.740 something like homosexuality, sodomy, that would certainly be a sin, but not necessarily a crime

01:11:18.180 that's punishable now if that came out to light then there would be a punishment for that offense

01:11:25.780 but it would likely not be treated as a capital offense and it would not receive capital punishment

01:11:31.920 that would be your maximum penalty right just like littering maximum two years in prison five

01:11:38.620 thousand dollar fine that would be maximum what would likely happen is that would be one of those

01:11:42.360 instances where an individual would be beaten and it would be shameful like what i was talking

01:11:48.040 about earlier beaten by rods he would be told not to do this again if somebody was brazen

01:11:55.080 and a repeat offender and trying to to to do it in public just to stick it to christians

01:12:04.260 then yes eventually eventually with a repeat offender who's also becoming more and more

01:12:11.120 publicly brazen with his sin, then yes, even the sin of homosexuality would eventually get the 0.92

01:12:17.740 death penalty. Okay, so now all the things that I'm saying right now, just for the record, I'm not 0.72

01:12:23.600 saying that I'm 100% right about all these things. I'm doing my best to study the Word of God first

01:12:28.420 and foremost. I'm doing my best to study political theology, political theory from old dead guys and

01:12:36.080 not the loser guys that are alive today.

01:12:41.340 And I'm studying guys like Rush Dooney,

01:12:44.140 Gary North,

01:12:45.100 the reconstructionist and theonomist.

01:12:47.740 And I agree with much of their position.

01:12:49.400 I would have some differences here and there.

01:12:52.660 I don't know exactly how all this works out.

01:12:54.720 But again,

01:12:55.200 for those who are just tuning in,

01:12:56.320 the way I started the episode,

01:12:57.680 go back and check it out.

01:12:58.980 Here's the key.

01:13:00.720 Here's the big idea.

01:13:02.220 It's not whether but which.

01:13:04.560 It's not whether but which.

01:13:06.080 we can either have the fierce debates 0.77

01:13:09.080 about drag queens story out 0.93

01:13:10.800 and castrating little boys,

01:13:13.720 chemically castrating, 0.99

01:13:17.060 sexual mutilation,

01:13:19.480 60 million babies aborted in their mother's womb, 0.84

01:13:23.360 pornography in schools.

01:13:26.000 We're either going to have a conversation about that

01:13:28.140 or we can have a conversation

01:13:30.540 and try to figure out Sabbath laws

01:13:32.840 and blasphemy laws in a Christian nation.

01:13:34.900 it's either christian nationalism or tranny nationalism and even that's not true it won't 0.77

01:13:42.020 be nationalism at all it'll be tranny globalism it'll be it's the global homo jihad or it's 0.80

01:13:50.880 christian nationalism because the only way you cast out the darkness is not with less darkness 0.83

01:13:56.160 but with light and Jesus is the only light of the world his law is good it's the lamp the law of God

01:14:05.760 is a light it doesn't save us no man will be saved by works as done unto the law the gospel for I'm

01:14:12.800 not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe first for the

01:14:19.540 Jew then for the Greek the gospel of free grace by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

01:14:25.860 is the only means of salvation,

01:14:28.180 eternal salvation for an individual man.

01:14:31.520 Yes and amen a thousand times.

01:14:34.180 But even the law of God is spoken of as light.

01:14:38.100 Where?

01:14:39.140 In scripture.

01:14:41.300 Your law is a light unto my path,

01:14:45.060 a lamp unto my feet.

01:14:48.520 Lawless nations become dark.

01:14:52.640 The law gives light.

01:14:55.860 The law, first, it reveals our need for a Savior.

01:14:59.560 It shows us the holiness of God, the sinfulness of man,

01:15:02.600 the infinite chasm in between God and man,

01:15:05.620 and our need for the only mediator.

01:15:07.840 There is one God and one mediator, the God-man Christ Jesus.

01:15:11.080 So the law drives us to Christ in its first use.

01:15:14.520 In its third use, it's a compass that guides us and shows us where to go.

01:15:18.220 The law also has a, it's a tutor, the pedagogical use of the law,

01:15:24.860 that it teaches, and it doesn't just teach individual Christians, but it teaches whole 0.69

01:15:28.920 societies made up even of non-Christians. The law disciples a culture in terms of morality.

01:15:38.080 What's right? What's wrong? And that's what I want guys to get. And that's probably where I'll

01:15:44.820 land the plane here at the end. I want guys to understand that it's both and. So as somebody

01:15:50.780 who is post-millennial okay as someone who's post-millennial um i believe that uh at the end

01:15:58.620 of this gospel age this church age there will be more people saved than not that heaven will have

01:16:04.520 more people than hell read bb warfield i understand there was the way there was the gate difficult the

01:16:11.540 path few under ever find it um i've talked about that before i don't have time to talk about that

01:16:16.100 right now um check out bb warfield and other post-millennials um there are easy biblical

01:16:22.360 interpretations of that particular parable if that's what you're hung up on many of us have

01:16:26.820 just assumed that hell will have a hundred times more people than heaven i believe that that's wrong

01:16:32.520 and there's a very there's very clear faithful biblical ways of dealing with that okay of dealing

01:16:38.700 with the verses that make it allude to the sense that hell will far outpopulate heaven right now

01:16:43.820 for the record i do believe that hell outpopulates heaven but as a post-millennial i believe that you

01:16:50.320 know the leaven will work through the batch of dough the mustard seed grows into a tree that

01:16:55.280 fills the earth the stone cut by no human hands will grow into a mountain filling the earth and

01:17:00.000 that more and more and more and more there will be not just the expanse of chrysidom in christian

01:17:05.580 culture but there will also be an increase a massive increase in individual christian people

01:17:12.760 in terms of regeneration true eternal christian people i believe that and so on the one hand

01:17:21.280 a christian nation christian nationalism whatever you want to call it it will not happen

01:17:30.540 apart from the bottom up bottom up meaning we need james white has said this i agree

01:17:37.080 we need more regenerate hearts.

01:17:40.340 We need more churches,

01:17:42.300 more gospel preaching.

01:17:45.000 We need more Christians being faithful

01:17:47.320 and doing the work of an evangelist.

01:17:49.320 We need more salvation,

01:17:51.900 more regeneration.

01:17:53.720 But here's where I would disagree

01:17:55.180 with some of my brothers in Christ.

01:17:57.720 And I would say,

01:17:58.460 it's not either or,

01:18:00.560 it's both and.

01:18:02.220 It is bottom up. 0.99

01:18:03.760 We need more Christians. 1.00

01:18:04.960 it is also top down i'll leave you with this three percent of the population 0.96

01:18:13.620 namely the lgbtg hot three percent not anymore they're not three percent anymore

01:18:19.680 but three percent of the total population less than three percent at the time with a strategic

01:18:27.900 calculated plan

01:18:30.300 to execute patiently

01:18:32.920 and slowly over decades

01:18:34.900 they won the entire nation

01:18:37.540 so don't tell me 0.96

01:18:40.240 that a minority of faithful Christians

01:18:43.620 can't make a difference 0.99

01:18:45.680 sodomites did

01:18:49.100 I'd like to think 1.00

01:18:52.620 that the gospel of Jesus Christ

01:18:56.940 is more potent and more powerful than sodomy.

01:19:02.800 3% of the population, less than 3%,

01:19:07.540 they made a deliberate, intentional, strategic plan

01:19:11.660 to accomplish over the course of 40, 50, 60 years.

01:19:16.740 And they did it. 0.82

01:19:19.380 And now all of America just assumes that same-sex mirage 0.97

01:19:25.540 is virtuous and moral you need moral people truly moral people and that comes from regenerate people 0.99

01:19:38.000 and if you're going to get regenerate people you need preaching gospel preaching if you're

01:19:43.340 going to get that you need preachers and you need churches yes and amen you need that

01:19:49.000 and yet at the same time at the same time the law teaches it's it's it's both and you've heard it

01:19:59.600 said politics is downstream of culture okay but then explain to me where we're at as a culture

01:20:06.420 on the lgbt craziness in relation to a burger fell a burger fell was a supreme court ruling 0.69

01:20:15.960 so there you have politics state government making rendering a judgment 0.63

01:20:22.940 and then you see the culture is already heading towards sexual insanity but

01:20:31.040 look at it statistically look it it exponentially expedited in terms of we we went from same-sex

01:20:43.620 marriage should be legal to drag queen's story hour in like 15 minutes that's not a coincidence

01:20:52.200 because politically politics is downstream of culture if you have a culture that's not moral

01:20:59.840 you can have bad laws at the same time though when you have bad laws it also it's a cycle it's a

01:21:07.960 vicious cycle it makes the the culture become even more immoral and so what i'm arguing for

01:21:15.320 and the christian nationalists that that i would say that i i yeah i'm linking arms with these

01:21:21.340 brothers i think they're good guys i think they're solid my particular strain would be the post

01:21:26.160 millennial general the theonomic vein some of these guys are all millennial um some of them

01:21:33.240 classic premill uh some of them are theonomic some of them aren't some of them are presuppositional

01:21:40.000 mantillian some of them are more uh tomistic and and a bigger fan of you know natural law and these

01:21:47.020 kinds of things from from aquinas but one of the things that we all agree on is uh the nation must

01:21:53.860 be christian it must be protestant a pan-protestant christian nation it should be creedal not

01:22:01.680 confessional so it's not discriminating between denominations creedal something all protestant

01:22:07.340 christians can agree on at the federal level and it must be it must punish evil and praise the good

01:22:17.160 and the state not be any bigger than that and then with evil how do you define it the ten commandments

01:22:23.780 i get there as a theonomist other guys get there from natural law either way it's the ten

01:22:30.720 commandments and what does it look like to to legislate and enforce the ten commandments

01:22:36.140 well it looks like having a a good grasp of the distinction between sins and crimes

01:22:42.140 a lot of that being defined by the the nature the difference between private and public

01:22:49.160 understanding case law understanding the bible prescribing penalties as maximum

01:22:55.720 penalties for repeat offenders who are brazen in public with their sin.

01:23:05.080 And then understanding with the first table of the law, like the Sabbath, for instance,

01:23:09.980 the state cannot mandate a day of worship because only God can command the heart of

01:23:17.880 God, regenerate the heart of God to where it can truly worship.

01:23:21.280 But the state can mandate and enforce a day of rest.

01:23:24.720 that's what a sabbath law is it doesn't force people to worship the triune god

01:23:30.940 but what it does is it closes down businesses

01:23:34.240 so don't think um when you think about sabbath laws don't think about a police officer

01:23:44.340 tying someone up and forcing them to say christ is lord what you should think about in christian

01:23:51.260 nationalistic terms with Sabbath laws is you should think about Chick-fil-A. That's what we

01:23:58.020 mean. That's what we're talking about. A day of rest, but it's one that is actually enforced by

01:24:04.760 the state. I will admit that. So it's not just the independent private business, their decision

01:24:10.940 like Chick-fil-A to take off Sunday, but the state is saying, um, you're not allowed to open

01:24:16.980 on sunday now that being said with sabbatarianism we still hold to works of necessity and works of

01:24:27.660 mercy so there would be hospitals open on the sabbath there would still be electricity available

01:24:34.740 on the sabbath there would still be the fire department and certain police officers it would

01:24:41.480 be maybe a skeleton crew at some, some level, um, and certain, you know, working in certain shifts

01:24:47.920 and doing these kinds of things to be able to cut back. Um, but yes, works of mercy and works

01:24:53.300 of necessity for emergency would still be open on the Sabbath and it would not take society long

01:24:59.600 to be able to function with a six day work week. We don't think that way right now because

01:25:04.860 we're antinomian we're lawless christians even are antinomian and lawless we don't think about

01:25:11.960 preparing for the sabbath but you can live that way if you're intentional so all that being said

01:25:18.500 the last thing is just this is it bottom up or top down all the christian nationalists that i know

01:25:24.320 that i'm talking to guys who would wear that hat there's differences in our theology i've already

01:25:28.380 expressed that but all they're saying is it's both it's both and and i would agree it's both

01:25:35.420 we need to preach the gospel we need more churches we need more evangelism because we need more

01:25:41.520 christians we need more regenerate hearts but here's the deal that's not all we need that's not

01:25:48.640 all we need because three percent of the population was sodomites were able to change everything

01:25:56.840 and we've got some regenerate hearts do we have a lot of guys who are professing to be christians

01:26:04.760 that aren't actually christians because of nominal christianity in america yes that's a thing i

01:26:09.180 understand it is a thing but we still have some regenerate hearts truly christian people in

01:26:15.880 america we do and i would be willing to argue that we have a lot more than three percent

01:26:22.000 even if we're talking about

01:26:23.980 truly regenerate Christians in America 0.99

01:26:26.380 I believe it's still

01:26:27.840 greater than 3% of the population

01:26:29.760 so we need more

01:26:33.440 but we also need to educate

01:26:35.660 and disciple the regenerate Christians

01:26:37.540 we already have

01:26:38.660 and part of their discipleship

01:26:42.000 needs to be this 0.57

01:26:42.860 that Christians are not

01:26:45.900 called by Jesus

01:26:47.160 to constantly lose

01:26:49.980 that's the problem we need more christians but we also need to educate the christians

01:26:57.980 we already have that they are allowed to wield power

01:27:02.900 the bible the biblical principle in regards to ruling is not that christians can't rule

01:27:12.200 not that ruling or wielding power is inherently evil the biblical principle when it comes to

01:27:19.960 to ruling and when it comes to power is that we must rule righteously. A husband is a servant

01:27:30.240 ruler, but make no mistake, he is a king. He is a ruler in his home. Peter even says that Sarah

01:27:39.080 called her husband Lord, not Lord of Lords. That title belongs to Jesus alone, but lowercase l,

01:27:47.720 lord lord in his home the gospel does not call christian husbands to not be lords who rule

01:27:59.000 with real authority in their homes what the christian gospel calls us to do instead

01:28:05.040 as husbands is to rule righteously not to abdicate power but to wield it righteously

01:28:13.860 not to not lead but to lead like jesus does jesus is the head of the church he nourishes the church

01:28:24.280 he laid his life down for the church but he's also in authority over the church he tells the

01:28:31.080 church what to do he does that's all i think christian nationalists are saying is we want

01:28:38.800 the nation to be publicly and explicitly have an allegiance to christ jesus not just theism

01:28:45.140 but the christian god the triune god we want that to be protestant we want it to be creedal

01:28:52.700 not confessional and we want the state to be small enough to stop doing the things god never told it

01:29:00.880 to do like welfare and education but big enough to effectively do what god has called it to do

01:29:08.220 which is to wield the sword against evil and to do that we have to define evil which means 0.93

01:29:14.920 by what standard and if we don't use the standard of scripture then you get tranny nationalism 0.75

01:29:23.340 drag queen story hour and so yeah given that as the alternative we prefer christian nationalism 0.61

01:29:31.100 that there's a standard to define evil and it should be the ten commandments god's moral law

01:29:37.640 And yes, that does include the first four of those commandments, the first table of the law. 0.97

01:29:43.880 And how do you do that in a nation where there will inevitably be non-Christians as citizens, a part of it? 0.99

01:29:50.680 Well, distinguish between crimes and sins, public and private. 0.98

01:29:58.260 And figuring that out, albeit with inevitably plenty of mistakes, plenty of casualties,

01:30:05.260 All of that is vastly superior to what we have now.

01:30:11.040 And that's where I hang my hat.

01:30:14.120 That's why I'm here.

01:30:15.800 Because it's not whether, but which.

01:30:19.600 We can argue as a nation about how to enforce the Sabbath. 0.68

01:30:24.660 Or we can argue as a nation over breastfeeding men. 0.95

01:30:31.420 You choose. 0.92

01:30:33.180 Thanks for tuning in.

01:30:34.240 Can I be frank with you for just a second, right here at the end? Look, some of you guys,

01:30:39.620 you're financially supporting this ministry, and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I

01:30:44.860 cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you,

01:30:52.240 you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy.

01:30:58.940 Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years 0.91

01:31:07.080 due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people

01:31:14.000 change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless.

01:31:20.920 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support

01:31:27.220 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.

01:31:34.060 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a

01:31:41.120 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.

01:31:47.860 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers.

01:31:53.760 We need to be strategic.

01:31:56.020 You leave us a five-star review, and our podcast shows up for more people.

01:32:00.980 And the Word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of

01:32:07.740 life gets out there.

01:32:09.800 Help us get it out there.

01:32:11.520 Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - April 30, 2023

BONUS EPISODE - A Baptist Case For “Christian Nationalism” ｜ Defining the Terms - Live w Pastor Joel Webbon

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