The NXR Podcast - BONUS EPISODE - Christian Nationalism ｜ A Response To Josh Buice & G3 ｜ Live w Pastor Joel

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00:00:42.680 All right, welcome back to another Monday Live. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right

00:00:46.580 Response Ministries. We do this every single Monday at 2 p.m. Central Time. We've got lots

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00:01:20.740 Austin, Texas. So Covenant Bible Church, if you're looking for a church in the area, Central Texas,

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00:03:11.200 Saturday. But the three main long form pieces of content is the sermon on Sunday by 5 p.m.

00:03:17.680 It's this Monday live video by 2 p.m. And then also a Theology Applied, our interview format

00:03:25.220 on Tuesdays at 2 p.m. So Sunday is the sermon, Monday is the live, and Theology Applied is on

00:03:32.820 Tuesday. Okay, so without further ado, let's go ahead and dive into our topic today. Just to frame

00:03:38.780 it for some of you guys who are tuning in who maybe have not been, you know, lots of people

00:03:43.680 aren't on Twitter. God bless you. I understand why you're not. Twitter is not a fun place to be.

00:03:48.960 That's what everybody says who's on Twitter, including myself. So the confession is, hey,

00:03:52.840 I don't like Twitter and oh, I can't stand the Twitter madness. And yet here I am on Twitter

00:03:57.780 and everybody else who says that too. But the reason I'm on Twitter is not because it's enjoyable.

00:04:02.360 The reason I'm on Twitter is because it is unique from all the other social media platforms.

00:04:07.080 I believe that it is most quintessentially the digital public square.

00:04:14.680 I can get a message across on YouTube.

00:04:17.180 I can get a message across on Facebook or I could say something or display something,

00:04:23.620 some kind of image, a meme or something like that, a quote from Charles Spurgeon or a Bible

00:04:28.140 verse on instagram lots of different platforms that are available that we can get wide reach

00:04:33.220 with but twitter is is the space where there's going to be the most engagement where i can

00:04:39.740 actually not necessarily have a full discussion because it's limited in how many characters you

00:04:46.160 can use but i can i can actually you know talk to another brother in christ or talk to somebody who

00:04:52.320 hates Jesus and go back and forth with them. And that's unique. That's not going to happen on

00:04:58.660 YouTube in the same way that it's going to happen on Twitter. Yes, somebody will do a video, they'll

00:05:02.980 call somebody out in the video. I do that at times when it's biblical and appropriate and necessary.

00:05:07.880 And then that person, you know, may see that and may respond to it with another video. But Twitter

00:05:12.940 can be back and forth real quick, just a thread of back and forth dialogue between you and someone

00:05:18.080 else, that sometimes is unhelpful, but sometimes it is helpful. And so there's been a little bit

00:05:23.520 of that. Now, with this particular case study that I'm about to show as an example, whether or not

00:05:29.760 it's unhelpful or helpful is to be determined. I still haven't really made up my mind about it.

00:05:36.120 But regardless, G3 and Josh Bice and Scott, I always mess up on the pronunciation of his name,

00:05:44.680 Annoil. I don't know. It's A-N-I-O-L. But Scott and Josh, predominantly with G3, have over the

00:05:56.240 last several weeks, so the last couple days, it's kind of ramped up the discourse, but it hasn't

00:06:01.260 just been a couple days. It's been for the past few weeks now. I think Scott kind of launched it

00:06:06.420 off by saying that Baptist and Christendom are incompatible, or Baptist theology and Christendom.

00:06:13.960 And what he's talking about with, you know, with that is restoring Christendom, that we would actually have West, we would have, you know, within restoring in the case of Western society, we'd have Christian culture and we'd have Christian, we would have Christian politics.

00:06:29.320 we'd have christian arts we've got you know that there would be a christianized society um at at

00:06:35.460 every level um christianity uh which arguably has been the the reigning dogma of the last thousand

00:06:43.580 years and you could all you know you could argue 1500 years going back to constantine um but

00:06:48.920 definitely i think the last 1000 years uh going back to king alfred um and biblical case law

00:06:56.260 and all of the prosperity and blessings and so many things that we have enjoyed in the west

00:07:03.340 in european countries and especially here in the united states of america you can track back to

00:07:09.340 the foundation of biblical principles that that the bible the word of god his law word was informing

00:07:16.680 their customs their culture their policies their legislation their their government all these

00:07:23.320 different things and so the question is um is this something that christians should involve

00:07:28.180 themselves in should christians be about restoring chrysidim um and right now it seems as though the 0.64

00:07:36.280 g3 guys and i think that we're talking past each other that's part of the reason why i'm doing this

00:07:40.120 video to try to instead of just on twitter but be able to in a long form get my thoughts out and try

00:07:45.520 to add clarity um and and a thoroughness to it but i think there's certainly some misunderstandings

00:07:51.740 working with different definitions, talking past each other. But at the same time, part of me

00:07:58.440 thinks that maybe it's not just a lack of clarity, and maybe they are saying, Josh and Scott and G3

00:08:07.160 saying exactly what they mean, that Baptists just really should not care about Christianizing the

00:08:15.020 world, that Baptists should not care about Christodom. I know that they are fairly strong

00:08:21.540 in their position against theonomy. They're also strong, Josh and Scott, particularly against

00:08:27.600 post-millennial eschatology. And certainly their eschatology, I think, is informing some of their

00:08:32.880 views. So those are the things we're going to get into. I'm going to go ahead and start, though,

00:08:37.080 by just showing you a couple of the important, significant tweets that were put

00:08:45.000 out there and my response to them that kind of spurred the need, or at least my perceived need

00:08:51.440 for a discussion like this today. So here's the first one. This is Josh Bice, and I think it also

00:08:56.680 has my response. So I retweeted him. I said, here's another encouraging example that our dear

00:09:01.800 G3 brothers are perhaps just confused about Christian nationalism. And then right there,

00:09:09.020 I'm retweeting Josh. What he says is this, and I'm going to pull it up on my phone because I'm

00:09:13.160 looking at the screen behind the camera and it's you guys should be able to see it but for me

00:09:17.780 i would have to be like a superhero with x-ray vision in order to see it so here we go he says

00:09:23.860 josh saying i don't think it's bad exegesis i believe that there are other legitimate paths

00:09:30.440 in the realm of theology than transformational theology or theonomy augustine calvin luther and

00:09:38.660 others have held to versions of two-kingdom theology and maintained engagement in the sphere

00:09:45.020 of the culture. I'm not in support of retreating into bunker mode and hiding under church pews

00:09:52.280 while praying for Jesus' return. Not even close. However, I wholeheartedly reject Christian

00:09:58.500 nationalism that links church and state and opens the gate for a Protestant pope. Now, there's a lot 1.00

00:10:07.260 that could be said but let's go ahead and just focus our attention on that last part again i'm

00:10:12.120 retweeting him i say here's another encouraging example that our dear g3 brothers are perhaps

00:10:18.540 just confused about christian nationalism what makes me think that perhaps they're just confused

00:10:24.280 well the last sentence in josh's tweet i wholeheartedly reject christian nationalism

00:10:31.060 that links church and state and opens the gate for a protestant pope and so i would say at this

00:10:38.620 point brother i'm encouraged that you're taking a stand against christendom and theonomy and

00:10:48.280 post-millennialism and christian nationalism which is not my favorite label and i'll get into that in

00:10:53.000 a moment but i would wear it i'm i'm encouraged that you are against these things and the things

00:10:58.680 which you are taking a stand against you clearly have no clue what they are that is encouraging

00:11:03.440 because if you did know what they were and we're still standing against them i would be more

00:11:09.380 concerned but it's clear that there's at least some degree maybe not a total misunderstanding

00:11:15.140 but at least some degree of misunderstanding if you're conflating christian nationalism

00:11:21.860 and transformational theology and theonomy with no separation,

00:11:30.100 there being no separation between church and state

00:11:32.820 and us vying for a Protestant pope.

00:11:38.320 That is not the position.

00:11:41.200 Let the record state that Joel Webin

00:11:43.640 and every other person in my camp that I can think of

00:11:48.740 is unanimously against a protestant pope the closest that i and again being as charitable

00:11:56.280 as possible here that at guessing i'm just i'm guessing that what i think josh might be talking

00:12:02.100 about and i've invited josh to come on the show because because i don't want to just guess and

00:12:06.580 speculate i would be happy to host a conversation with him um josh is a brother in christ and more

00:12:13.260 than just a brother in Christ. Josh is a theological boss. Josh Bice is a wonderfully

00:12:21.480 faithful pastor that I've learned a ton from. Him, not directly so much, but things that he

00:12:30.600 is directly responsible in producing, like G3 Ministries. And so, Josh is not dumb. He very 0.75

00:12:39.360 likely is my theological superior. But I think I can have this conversation and stand my ground

00:12:47.460 and hold my own, not because I think I'm more theologically savvy than Josh, but when it comes

00:12:53.460 to theological debates, you know what always helps? It always helps when you're right.

00:12:59.140 I don't think I know more than Josh, but I know that I have the right position in this particular

00:13:04.780 the case not every theological issue under the sun but i know that i'm holding the right position

00:13:09.800 that nations should have a public allegiance to christ it's a very simple position

00:13:16.180 and it is very very difficult to argue that that's somehow not what jesus wants so because

00:13:24.600 of the level of confidence i have in my overall position on this particular topic

00:13:29.280 I'm happy to facilitate a discussion with him however all that being said for now if and until

00:13:38.080 a discussion like that takes place I'm left to do my best to guess and to guess and speculate with

00:13:45.520 a posture I believe of charity because I've seen Josh's faithfulness and so I want to hope the

00:13:53.440 best. And so, in charity, I'm thinking that when he says Protestant Pope, because the closest that

00:13:59.840 I can get to within this Christian nationalism tent, which there are, I mean, it is confusing

00:14:06.000 because there are a lot of guys with differing positions. And so, it is confusing. Like, for

00:14:11.800 instance, Stephen Wolfe is kind of the gold standard currently on Christian nationalism.

00:14:17.620 he wrote the book the case for christian nationalism and i would differ with stephen

00:14:24.200 wolf on a few issues um for one i'm 1689 reformed baptist and would hold to a reformed baptist

00:14:31.880 covenantalism um it's distinct from his westminster uh federalism uh we would also differ in the

00:14:38.860 sense that i am um i am unapologetically kyperian all of christ for all all of life uh abraham

00:14:46.140 Kuyper, not everything that Abraham Kuyper ever said, but I am Kuyperian in the sense of, you know,

00:14:52.060 the quintessential Kuyperian phrase, every square inch, right? There's not one square inch of all

00:14:57.060 the earth that Christ doesn't cry out, mine. It all belongs to Jesus. We need to have Christian

00:15:04.440 art, Christian politics, Christian culture, Christian medicine, Christian everything,

00:15:09.600 not just Christian families and churches, but Christian institutions and a Christian culture

00:15:14.460 in a Christian politic. So I'm Kuyperian, where Stephen Wolfe would get to that same Christian

00:15:20.360 nationalist argument, but not from Kuyperianism. He would be not a radical two-kingdom theologian

00:15:27.960 like Van Druden or Michael Horton or the guys that John Frame critiqued long ago and got lots

00:15:35.800 of backlash for it, but the guys at Westminster Escondido. But rather, Stephen Wolfe would be

00:15:41.560 a classic two kingdom guy. And there is a difference. And I think that we can link arms

00:15:48.160 and we can partner in many ways. But I am not a radical two kingdom guy. I'm also not even a

00:15:54.420 classic two kingdom guy. I am Kyperia. Now, that being said, I would be in the same boat as Dr.

00:16:02.040 Joe Boot. If you've read Dr. Joe Boot, his mission for God, also ruler of kings. But mission of God,

00:16:09.660 one of the things that he talks about is that we do adhere in our theological vein to two kingdoms.

00:16:17.380 The question is, what is the distinction between these two kingdoms? Within the classic two-kingdom

00:16:24.060 view, it's usually going to be defined as a distinction between the sacred and the secular,

00:16:31.840 or the common is a better way to put it. Those things that are sacred and those things which

00:16:37.560 are common, and a classic two-kingdom guy like Stephen Wolfe is going to argue that Christ rules

00:16:43.040 both of these kingdoms. So, it's a mischaracterization to say, you know, that they don't

00:16:49.520 believe that Jesus stands as Lord above it all, because they do, but they believe that Jesus rules

00:16:54.120 in two different manners, that he rules in one way over the church and those things which are

00:16:59.580 sacred, and he rules through another means and another way over those things which are common,

00:17:05.700 And predominantly that gets to another distinction that I would have with Stephen Wolfe in his version of Christian nationalism, which is the difference between presuppositionalism, really tracking back, you know, to Cornelius Van Til, and I think you could also argue Gahardus Voss, but from Voss to Van Til, and then fleshed out in the realm of apologetics, but also Christian ethics by Bonson, Greg Bonson, I would be in the presuppositional vein.

00:17:34.200 whereas someone like Stephen Wolfe would be in a Thomistic vein, Thomism, which comes from

00:17:40.300 Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas, in large part, his quest was being commissioned by the Roman

00:17:48.940 Catholic Church to Christianize Aristotle. Now, you might say, well, hey, that's ironic because

00:17:54.520 you're the guy who's arguing for Christianizing things and yet you're not a Thomist. Well,

00:17:58.780 to christianize something there are some things that have to be redeemed

00:18:03.240 and there are some things that have to be crushed when christianity christianized the west

00:18:11.040 white people in the west were pagans right there's nothing inherently christian or godly about

00:18:20.400 a lack of skin pigment right about white skin white people doug wilson has famously said you 0.58

00:18:27.300 know, before the gospel came, we were painting our faces blue and hopping on Viking ships and

00:18:32.300 going and raping and pillaging, you know, people all over the earth and praying and sacrificing to

00:18:37.140 our pagan gods, you know, Norse mythology and all, you know, the whole nine yards. 1.00

00:18:43.040 It's not white skin. It's not intellectual, you know, inherent in our DNA superiority or anything

00:18:50.140 like that. No, it's the gospel of Jesus Christ. And if the West doesn't repent, just while we're

00:18:54.920 on this point, if the West doesn't repent, then we'll crumble. And God will do amazing things

00:19:04.800 through other nations, right? You think of like Vodibakum in Zambia right now. I'm already kind

00:19:11.400 of working on a game plan financially, right? A wise man proverb says a wise man or a good man

00:19:16.820 leaves an inheritance to his children's children. I'm seriously working on starting a fund for my

00:19:23.380 grandchildren called the Zambia Fund, so that if God doesn't send revival to the West, which will 0.95

00:19:31.660 not come with a mere conservative resurgence, it's going to have to be a distinctly Christian

00:19:36.260 reformation and repentance and calling upon Jesus by name. If that doesn't happen and the West does

00:19:42.260 crumble, I want my grandchildren to survive and to have some place to go. And there are certain

00:19:48.400 parts of Asia and Africa and South America that may be the epicenters of the new Christendom

00:19:58.640 if the West continues to rebel against Jesus. So it's not about white skin. It's about the 0.89

00:20:04.580 gospel of Jesus Christ that changes first and foremost individual hearts. But here's the thing,

00:20:09.400 so much of this is just a logical conclusion. When enough individual hearts are changed,

00:20:16.240 that changes a culture that changes a society that changes legislation it changes politics

00:20:25.120 it changes government it changes art it changes medicine so much of what we have today i mean

00:20:30.780 still an ambulance drives by and the symbol on it is is a serpent wrapped around a staff

00:20:37.240 right well where does that come from some pagan mythology no it comes from the bible

00:20:42.200 it's it's the bronze serpent that Moses was commanded to lift up in the wilderness with

00:20:47.960 Israel because because of their hardness of heart and rebellion God had sent poisonous vipers into

00:20:53.420 their midst they were being bitten by these vipers and growing sick and ill but God promised he said 0.81

00:20:59.600 Moses build this you know bronze serpent hold it up and if anybody looks at the staff the serpent

00:21:06.940 they will be healed and so the emblem for medicine in the west coming out of chrysidom

00:21:12.660 is a biblical symbol of of healing and and nourishment that's i mean whether it be medicine

00:21:20.240 or whether it be technological advancements all these things have the root ultimately in

00:21:25.520 in not the superiority of of white people but in the superiority and it is superior the superiority 1.00

00:21:33.260 of christian doctrine paganism is stupid and christ is wise i mean it really is that simple 0.99

00:21:42.100 in any nation any culture any individual at every level that embraces christ and his truth and his 1.00

00:21:47.860 word there is going to be certain blessings that follow and they're not just heavenly blessings

00:21:54.040 that's first that's foremost and that alone is absolutely 100 guaranteed but ordinarily not

00:22:02.620 always because there is suffering and persecution for Christians in this life but ordinarily not

00:22:08.120 always but ordinarily there is earthly temporal tangible physical blessings that follow obedience

00:22:15.700 and and I think some of this may be an overreaction to the prosperity gospel but the prosperity gospel

00:22:22.720 again let the record state the prosperity gospel it never insisted um that that blessing would

00:22:29.840 follow obedience. No, it insisted that blessing would follow wishful thinking. It was never about,

00:22:38.980 hey, if you're faithful and have a life of obedience to the commandments of Christ by

00:22:44.120 grace through faith in him, you'll be blessed. How dare you, Bill Johnson? How dare you,

00:22:51.280 Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn and Joyce Myers? No, that wasn't the prosperity. The prosperity

00:22:56.740 gospel was not that longevity and obedience that springs from faith in Christ brings blessing.

00:23:05.280 That's not the prosperity gospel. As far as I know, that's not what we were opposing all these

00:23:11.560 many years as we've opposed false doctrine. No, the prosperity gospel was faith in your faith,

00:23:16.740 that you could just click your ruby slippers together and say there's no place like home,

00:23:21.280 and it would just magically happen, right? The prosperity gospel was more akin to pixie dust.

00:23:28.260 You know, it's faith in your faith. If I just believe enough, I can manifest, right? It was

00:23:34.520 manifesting. It was pagan. It was the power of positivity by positive thoughts. It wasn't 0.87

00:23:41.200 a life of hard work and integrity and faithfulness and obedience that springs from faith in Christ

00:23:46.500 would bring ordinarily again not guaranteed but ordinarily certain tangible physical blessings as

00:23:52.260 well as the guaranteed eternal blessings of of eternal life and salvation in heaven no that

00:23:57.220 that's not what we were opposing that's that's not prosperity gospel guys that's bible that's

00:24:02.020 just bible prosperity gospel was this wishful thinking okay so all that being said the the point

00:24:09.180 is um if god changes individual hearts the question that that then begs for anyone who

00:24:19.280 if for any man who is born again by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone

00:24:23.380 the next question is francis schaeffer how then should we live and and the answer to that question

00:24:33.100 biblically is not well you should live as a christian privately that's not the answer the

00:24:41.180 answer is not the privatized lordship of jesus christ and it's not also it's not merely a

00:24:47.460 spiritual kingship of jesus christ it's not just jesus reigning supreme in the 17th dimension

00:24:54.840 but but it is a kingship of jesus that is both here and now now not fully we recognize it's not

00:25:05.140 full but but it's it's but it's here and it's now it's the mustard seed has already been planted

00:25:12.860 the leaven has already been infiltrated into the dough it needs to be worked through the mustard

00:25:20.760 see this tree it's already growing it needs to grow further the stone cut by no human hands it's

00:25:27.000 it's here it's here and it's growing into a mountain it's not yet a mountain that fills the

00:25:32.520 whole earth right there's still more room for growth there's still much more that needs to be

00:25:36.960 done but the rule and reign of jesus is here and now so going back to jobu okay two kingdoms and

00:25:44.380 going back to steven wolf and i'm going to go back to josh bice it's just i feel like you know it's

00:25:49.120 like Leonardo DiCaprio inception right now, right? Just a thought, you know, a dream within a dream

00:25:53.180 within a dream, right? A bunny trail within a bunny trail within a bunny trail. But if you follow

00:25:57.360 this ministry, then that shouldn't be, you know, novel to you. That's kind of, that's my MO. That's

00:26:01.580 what I do. But Joe Boot, you know, he would say that there are two kingdoms, but it's not common

00:26:07.060 and sacred. That's not the distinction. Rather, it's not sacred and common, but it is light and

00:26:14.700 darkness. And light and darkness, these two kingdoms find themselves within every sphere of

00:26:22.900 life. I've said it like this. I'll say it again because I think it's helpful. One king, two kingdoms,

00:26:28.920 three spheres. One king, two kingdoms, three spheres. The one king is Jesus Christ. The two

00:26:36.440 kingdoms is light and darkness. The three spheres is the home, the church, and the state. Wherever

00:26:44.160 you have a christian magistrate right if we have a born-again evangelical christian governor

00:26:50.740 of of a state in our republic well there you have and he's living in obedience to god's law word

00:26:58.300 well there you have the kingdom of light in the sphere of the state and wherever you have a good

00:27:05.140 faithful pastor you have the kingdom of light in the sphere of the church wherever you have a

00:27:08.900 christian husband and a christian wife and mother there you have the kingdom of light in the sphere

00:27:14.140 of the family or the home um but you can have the kingdom of darkness in the sphere of the church

00:27:20.900 what do you call that you call that an apostate you call that a false teacher you call like there

00:27:28.520 are lots of different uh theological categories for that so i do hold to two kingdoms but classic

00:27:35.100 two kingdom theology where stephen wolf would be going back to him now um is the distinction that

00:27:40.660 that there's not two kingdoms separated by light and darkness but rather by that which is sacred

00:27:46.880 and that which is common so i would differ a presuppositional versus classic two kingdom i

00:27:52.760 would differ um in terms of being reformed baptist stephen wolf is presbyterian and i would also

00:27:58.160 um uh did well differ presuppositional versus tomism thomas aquinas in that common right in

00:28:05.200 that common realm what stephen wolf would argue for is there's two kingdoms it's sacred and common

00:28:10.540 and within the common kingdom, that's primarily Jesus is over it, but he's going to be governing

00:28:16.360 and reigning through reason, right? Through natural revelation and natural law, natural

00:28:24.460 theology. And Stephen uses natural law, and this is the reformed position for hundreds of years,

00:28:29.720 to say, well, the natural law is synonymous. This would be Romans 1, Romans 2. It's synonymous

00:28:35.260 with moral law. That is the Decalogue, not just the second table of the law, how to love our

00:28:39.700 neighbor commandments five through ten but all ten commandments including the first table of the law

00:28:44.140 have no other gods before me don't make any graven images don't take the lord's name in vain and

00:28:48.520 remember the sabbath so steven wolf is going to say all ten commandments should be upheld by a

00:28:55.000 christian nation and by a christian government and you can argue that the christian you know

00:29:00.640 the government side is in the common kingdom not sacred common kingdom is governed by christ in

00:29:06.160 another way namely by reason that's your tomism kind of thing but even reason insist upon all

00:29:13.740 10 commandments and not just the second table right so those are the kinds of things the arguments

00:29:19.380 that stephen wolf is making i would be a little bit different and i'll flesh some more of that

00:29:23.680 out and get back to josh bice and this can baptist you know adhere to chrysidom in just a moment but

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00:31:54.560 All right, so let me go ahead and try to finish that thought. The difference between myself and

00:31:59.160 Stephen Wolfe, again, Stephen Wolfe, who wrote The Case for Christian Nationalism,

00:32:04.080 the primary differences would be this, okay? I think there are seven integral doctrines. I did

00:32:11.060 a podcast on this a few weeks ago. You should check it out if you haven't already. Um, but

00:32:15.120 one, uh, being, um, confessionally reformed, Stephen Wolf is going to be Westminster. That's

00:32:20.960 a difference. I'm going to be 1689, but both reformed, um, in our soteriology, a reformed,

00:32:26.840 uh, theological systematic theology and confessionally reformed, not just doing

00:32:32.200 theology a la carte one piece at a time. Oh, I'll take a little bit of cessationism and I'll take

00:32:36.880 a little bit of, you know, complementarianism and I'll take this eschatology. No, but a systemized

00:32:42.380 is a confession, right? And it's not just your general confession of faith in the church basement

00:32:48.500 that's three pages long, but no, a historic, tried and true, centuries old reformed confession.

00:32:55.400 He's Westminster, I'm 1689. So that's first. You need to be confessional. You need to have

00:33:01.780 reformed confessionalism, but that would be a distinction and it matters, but there'd be a

00:33:06.860 lot of commonality there steven wolf westminster joel webin 1689 number two covenant theology

00:33:13.300 there'd be a distinction there as well we're both covenantal but i would be within a reformed

00:33:18.260 baptist covenantal framework he would have a westminster view of the covenants i don't have

00:33:23.820 time to flesh out what those distinctions are but that's the second one third patriarchal we would

00:33:29.120 both agree with this father rule um this is where part of where you know steven wolf gets into the

00:33:35.120 Christian prince. He even has a chapter in his book where he talks about a gynocracy and that 0.63

00:33:41.160 that's a curse biblically. To be ruled by women and children is one of the curses that we find 1.00

00:33:47.440 in Isaiah for a nation that's wicked and underneath God's judgment, that they would be ruled by unfit 1.00

00:33:53.200 rulers. And one example of an unfit ruler is women and children. And I think without stretching the 0.96

00:33:59.220 text too much, we could also say elderly people with dementia would be another example of God's 0.55

00:34:05.580 judgment on a nation, that when a nation is wicked and is apostatizing and turning from Christ,

00:34:11.840 that he gives them wicked rulers, and not just wicked rulers, but unqualified, incompetent

00:34:18.560 rulers, right? Rulers that about all they can do at that point in their life is eat an ice cream

00:34:26.920 Cone, right? Joe Biden. So all that, but patriarchy, father rule at all three levels. It's fathers in

00:34:35.980 the home, familial fathers, the husband is the head of the wife, the head of the household,

00:34:40.040 fathers in the church, ecclesiastical, spiritual fathers, elders are men. And because we're both

00:34:45.460 confessional, Westminster in 1689 are both clear that the diaconate should be male as well.

00:34:50.020 Um, and then, you know, civil fathers that, that in positions of civil government, uh,

00:34:56.420 that, that men should be leading the way, um, that it is actually God's judgment when

00:35:01.640 you have, uh, someone like Nancy Pelosi.

00:35:04.520 Um, and it is certainly God's judgment when you have women in the military, especially 0.99

00:35:08.300 in combat positions. 1.00

00:35:09.980 Um, but also you, you shouldn't have, um, you should not have women, uh, as a governor 1.00

00:35:15.860 of a state or president or congress um that god has called men not just in the spheres of the home 0.88

00:35:22.600 of the church but in larger society that men lead men lead and that's a good and godly thing are

00:35:31.040 there evil men yes we live in a fallen world if there's a woman with with more values that are 0.58

00:35:38.120 closer to the bible even though she's off at least in part you know because she's not patriarchal and 0.99

00:35:43.940 she's not holding to that particular doctrine, but she's much closer to the Bible and pro-life

00:35:47.800 and these kinds of things. And it's between her and some wicked socialist, you know, abortion, 0.97

00:35:52.600 baby killing, you know, man, then yeah, I'm going to vote for the woman. Absolutely. But we're 0.99

00:35:56.920 talking about ultimately the principle. Okay. So biblical patriarchy, Steve and I there,

00:36:01.900 there wouldn't be a distinction. We would agree. Number four, I would be presuppositional. That's

00:36:07.620 your Vantillion thing. He's going to be, he's going to be a Thomist. That's going to be your

00:36:11.920 thomas aquinas and that's kind of christianizing aristotle taking metaphysics the big thing there

00:36:17.500 is um that's just a big debate but as i see it the big thing is just uh the sufficiency of

00:36:24.740 scripture um do i need something in addition to scripture in order to understand uh the character

00:36:30.340 and nature of god in the inner working of uh the three persons of the trinity and um processions

00:36:36.820 of the Trinity, the doctrine of impassibility, divine simplicity. Can I understand, obviously

00:36:42.860 nobody is going to have a perfect, because we're finite, we're not going to have a perfect

00:36:46.360 understanding of the infinite God, but can I know all that God wishes for me to know about him from

00:36:52.580 the book that he wrote to me, namely the Bible? Or do I need ultimately pagan philosophy and reason

00:37:02.540 and um and metaphysics christianized baptized by thomas aquinas um in order to do these things so

00:37:12.780 the the difference between presuppositional and tomism that that also plays out in the way that

00:37:17.300 stephen writes his book um he's you know and that leads to the next thing i'm kyperian all of christ

00:37:22.760 for all of life every square inch he's going to be a two kingdom guy not a radical two kingdom guy

00:37:27.900 like Michael Horton or Van Druden or the Westminster guys, but, uh, Westminster Escondido

00:37:32.220 guys, but he's going to be a classic two kingdom guy, uh, whereas I'm Kuyperian.

00:37:36.980 Um, and so his two kingdoms, the kingdom distinction between the two is going to be

00:37:41.380 that which is sacred, that which is common, Christ ruling both of them, but ruling in

00:37:45.080 two different methods, two different manners.

00:37:47.140 And Christ is ruling the common kingdom.

00:37:50.400 Um, he's governing that through reason, uh, through general revelation, natural revelation.

00:37:56.580 and he's ruling his sacred kingdom the church through special revelation whereas i'm going to

00:38:01.780 say going back it's presuppositional and kyperian that these two play off of one another i'm going

00:38:07.800 to be theonomic where steven wolf is not a theonomist right and a lot of people don't know

00:38:11.980 that they think oh he's a christian nationalist he thinks all ten commandments should be adhered to

00:38:15.980 and legislated by the civil government a distinctly explicitly publicly christian nation

00:38:23.060 at the federal level, and so therefore he's a theonomist. He's actually not.

00:38:28.860 I am. I would be a general equity theonomist. Stephen Wolfe is going to argue that with the,

00:38:36.300 you know, realms outside, spheres outside the church, that which is sacred, so the civil sphere,

00:38:43.260 these common, common kingdom elements that we're using natural revelation, we're using general

00:38:50.120 revelation, not special revelation. Whereas I'm going to say, um, yeah, natural revelation and

00:38:54.860 general revelation will get, get us there. I think they will. They'll get us to the 10 commandments.

00:38:59.500 Um, but God wrote a book. If you're ever wondering what's the difference between a presuppositionalist

00:39:04.300 and, you know, somebody who's, um, a Thomist in their ethics, their view of ethics, uh, like

00:39:10.880 Stephen Wolf, you know, or their view of apologetics like R.C. Sproul, right? Classical apologetics.

00:39:16.200 what's the difference between the Thomist and the presuppositional guy well the presuppositional

00:39:21.040 guy in a nutshell we're just we're the guys who are we're going to say God wrote a book

00:39:26.420 and we can use the book that's the difference whereas the Thomist is going to say God wrote

00:39:33.280 a book he wrote it for the church and when we're outside of the church arguing a defense for the

00:39:40.760 faith, uh, in the realm of apologetics with an unbeliever in the common kingdom. Um, then we

00:39:46.480 need to appeal to reason. We need to appeal to nature. We, and, and again, to not try to entirely

00:39:51.800 straw man the argument, Sproul's big hang up because Sproul, you know, we always think of

00:39:55.960 him in terms of theology, but he was a philosophy major as well. And, uh, very, very, very, very

00:40:01.040 fond of philosophy and, and very fond of Thomas Aquinas and Sproul's big thing. And I love Sproul

00:40:06.120 for the record. I'm very grateful for R.C. Sproul. I still will try to listen to an old

00:40:12.120 Sproul sermon once a week, just because it shapes me in a really good way and influences the way

00:40:19.320 that I think, the way that I preach. So you're looking at somebody who likes R.C. Sproul very

00:40:24.860 much, very grateful. But Sproul's big thing in the realm of apologetics is hang up with

00:40:29.200 presuppositional apologetics and Van Til, and there's an old classic debate between him and

00:40:34.020 Greg Bonson on apologetics between Sproul and Bonson, but his thing is he felt like it commits

00:40:40.080 a logical fallacy, namely circular reasoning, because the presuppositional guy, at the end of

00:40:45.560 the day, we're always going to appeal to the book. God wrote a book, God wrote a book, God wrote a

00:40:49.640 book, and we're going to do that not just in the church when we're preaching a sermon to the 0.97

00:40:55.160 redeemed, to the saints, but we're going to do it in apologetics with a non-Christian, and we want

00:40:59.380 to do it in government too. We want to say, um, Hey, we should, uh, adhere to the 10 commandments 1.00

00:41:04.040 because God told us in the Bible. It's like, well, we don't, we're not Christians. And, and what if

00:41:10.640 we don't agree with the Bible? We don't agree with your book. How do we know that your Bible

00:41:13.900 is authoritative? How do we know that the Bible is the word of God? The presuppositionalist is

00:41:18.240 going to answer that question by saying, we know that the Bible is the word of God because the

00:41:21.660 Bible says so. And that is the answer. If you read John Frame's apologetics, he's presuppositional

00:41:27.680 as well uh van tillion if you read his big book on on apologetics uh he essentially says the same

00:41:33.700 thing he says yeah well it is circular reasoning um but it's a big circle and you go this way and

00:41:38.560 you go that way but yeah the bible is the bible and we know it's the bible because the bible says

00:41:42.620 so and the reason why that's the position um is is because all reasoning at some level that would

00:41:50.040 be another one of the counters that greg bonson had that you know at some level all reasoning

00:41:54.200 is circular reasoning the circular reasoning is not is not a logical fallacy to the extent

00:42:00.700 to the degree that it completely dismisses a certain way of thinking that it dismisses a

00:42:06.860 subject or a point a principle altogether but again on Sproul's side as a Thomist he's going

00:42:12.620 to say well I want to get you to believe in the credibility of the Bible but first I need to prop

00:42:19.980 up i i need to make the bible credible by appealing to other authorities and the presuppositionalist

00:42:27.520 doesn't like that because ultimately would say that we're we're resting the authority of scripture

00:42:31.980 on a lesser authority and that ultimately what that's doing is it's actually propping up the

00:42:37.720 lesser authority as though that were the supreme authority right so i can trust the bible because

00:42:41.600 of my five senses would be something that sprawl talks about like epistemology how do i know what

00:42:46.420 I know? How do I know what is true? Well, sense perception, reason, rationale, nature, these kind

00:42:54.180 of, and we say all these are subservient to scripture and the presuppositionalist can use

00:42:58.720 these kinds of natural arguments, arguments of logic, arguments of reason, arguments from nature.

00:43:03.680 The apostle Paul makes arguments from nature and all these different things. So we can appeal to

00:43:07.320 logic, we can appeal to, but the difference is this. It's not what sources, what other authorities

00:43:12.860 can you appeal to it all comes down to what's primary we're going to say all these other

00:43:18.480 authorities are authorities because the bible says they are and the bible is the supreme authority

00:43:23.920 it's the foundational authority whereas you know the the tomist is going to say well the bible

00:43:29.260 we can believe its authority because these other authorities and implicitly you're kind of saying

00:43:35.420 these other greater authorities tell us that the bible is an authority so all that means that that

00:43:41.080 would be another, another difference between me and, um, and Stephen Wolfe, um, him being

00:43:46.800 Thomist, me being, um, being presuppositional, him being a classic two kingdom. I've already

00:43:52.140 explained that me being Kuyperian all of life. Um, and then that gets into the, you know, the,

00:43:56.880 the, uh, theonomy, um, whereas he's not, not a theonomist and doesn't necessarily have to be

00:44:03.560 because he's going to say that even within the common kingdom, which Christ governs in another

00:44:07.900 way, namely through natural revelation, general revelation, that that is sufficient, that natural

00:44:13.400 and general revelation is sufficient to get us God's natural law, which is synonymous with moral

00:44:19.320 law, moral law being 10 commandments. And the 10 commandments weren't given to Christian people.

00:44:24.280 That's something we have to understand. Me and Stephen Wolf would agree on that point. The 10

00:44:28.140 commandments were not given, issued by God to Christian people. They're given to all people.

00:44:32.700 The 10 commandments, God's moral law, which is synonymous with natural law, but we can also

00:44:36.960 appeal to the book. We can say, God, God wrote a book. Um, that's again, back to the presuppositional

00:44:42.480 side of things, but, uh, natural law, moral law, the 10 commandments are not just for Christian

00:44:48.700 people. They are binding on all people, binding on all people. And then the last one is post

00:44:54.080 millennialism. Um, and Stephen Wolf and I are both, uh, post-millennialists. Um, we have, uh,

00:44:59.800 the same eschatology, but, um, I would probably put a larger emphasis, um, on my post-millennial

00:45:06.520 eschatology than he would so all that being said i have some differences as you can see some

00:45:12.920 theological differences with steven wolf and christian nationalism is not um that's not my

00:45:19.440 favorite term uh where steven wolf i think likes it a lot more he's you know i think he's happy

00:45:25.420 about it and i'm a little bit more reluctant but i'm willing to wear the the christian nationalist

00:45:29.960 label. I prefer just to say that I'm a post-millennial general equity theonomist.

00:45:37.220 I would fall more into Doug Wilson's camp in that regard, even as a Baptist, and I believe that you

00:45:42.300 can consistently, but I would fall into Doug Wilson's camp of a mere Christendom, more than

00:45:47.500 a Christian nationalism. But in both cases, even Doug Wilson would say, yes, but Christian

00:45:52.040 nationalism, it's not our preferred label, but it is an appropriate label, a label that we are

00:45:59.220 willing to wear all right so what is someone now not talking about steven wolf but now more like

00:46:05.120 doug wilson or myself or you know somebody like joe boot what would we mean you know when we say

00:46:12.120 christian nationalists well these these uh this next part of my argument has been framed by doug

00:46:18.480 wilson but i i agree entirely i think that it's it's simple it's clear it's easy to understand

00:46:24.680 and I think that it is empirically true, okay?

00:46:28.220 So he says that essentially there's only six choices

00:46:31.700 that we have at the end of the day.

00:46:33.960 It's not whether but which, right?

00:46:35.760 That's a Rush Dooney coined phrase, right?

00:46:38.820 It's not whether but which, right?

00:46:40.200 It's not, you know, will you have a theocracy?

00:46:43.660 It's just what kind of theocracy will you have?

00:46:47.040 Secularism, secular humanism has proven

00:46:50.220 that there is a federal religion.

00:46:55.900 There is a state religion.

00:46:58.720 Unfortunately, it's just, 0.71

00:47:00.060 it's not the Christian religion.

00:47:02.160 So it's not whether, but which. 0.95

00:47:04.440 Okay, so these are the choices that we have.

00:47:06.060 It's not, well, you know,

00:47:07.440 whether or not we're going to be Christian,

00:47:08.940 if we're not Christian nationalists,

00:47:10.280 we're going to be something else. 0.72

00:47:11.420 Here are your choices.

00:47:12.960 Tribalism, nationalism, globalism.

00:47:16.580 Tribalism, nationalism, globalism.

00:47:19.480 And then within these three categories, two subcategories, Christian tribalism or pagan

00:47:26.840 tribalism, Christian nationalism or pagan nationalism, Christian globalism or pagan

00:47:34.780 globalism. Now Acts chapter 17 verse 26 says that God sets the borders of nations and he

00:47:42.260 allots their time periods. So nations are God's idea. And not only are they God's idea and

00:47:50.580 therefore permissible and good, but nations are Christ's inheritance. Jesus is coming back

00:47:57.980 to receive the nations. Psalm chapter 2, the nations rage against him, seeking to burst the

00:48:06.660 bonds apart, right? They desire this illusion of autonomous liberty, autonomous freedom apart from

00:48:13.100 the creator, but it's an illusion. It's impossible. He who sits in the heavens laughs, he mocks and

00:48:20.020 holds them in derision, right? God has set his holy one up on Mount Zion. That's the Lord Jesus

00:48:26.880 Christ, David being king of Israel, but serving as a type, the antitype being Christ Jesus himself.

00:48:33.900 he's been set up on Mount Zion and the nations will adore him. Over time, progressively throughout

00:48:42.260 human history, the nations will flock to Mount Zion. Isaiah talks about this, chapter 2.

00:48:49.620 We also see other things in Isaiah chapter 65 that give us this sentiment, that the nations

00:48:56.240 will come to to jesus right kiss the son lest he be angry and you be destroyed as his wrath is

00:49:04.860 quickly kindled so nations are god's idea the word nations is all throughout the scripture right

00:49:11.180 and and the nations belong to jesus they belong to king jesus and they are commanded to honor

00:49:18.500 pay homage to the son to kiss the son lest he be angry jesus the holy one set up on mount

00:49:26.140 Zion. So, nations. Acts chapter 17, verse 26. God came up with nations. Nations are Christ's

00:49:34.820 inheritance. God allots their time period when nations rise, when nations fall, and their

00:49:40.660 boundaries, their borders. It is right and good, permissible, but also commendable in Scripture.

00:49:48.260 Expected, obligated, that civil magistrates, rulers of nations would have borders and police

00:49:54.280 those borders so all that being said it's tribalism nationalism or globalism globalism

00:50:02.180 is bad right we we have god loved the world he loves every nation and so when we say globalism

00:50:08.880 right some people i've heard them say well i'm a all nation uh all christian nationalists

00:50:13.700 or i'm sorry a christian all nationalist i think is how they say it so it's not uh just this nation

00:50:19.640 being christian but all nations and of course amen yes and amen it's not about america um yeah

00:50:26.100 all the nations will be christianized i believe that um and that's good and and that's right i'm

00:50:32.400 working particularly towards the christianizing of this nation because it's the one that god and

00:50:36.780 his providence has placed me in and i love this nation and i love this nation more than other

00:50:41.420 nations and that's not because i hate other nations i love um i love the nations but i love

00:50:47.520 my nation more. And that's good and right. In the same way that I love women, but I love my wife

00:50:54.220 more than other women. And to do anything otherwise would actually disqualify me from

00:51:00.120 eldership and ministry. So all that being said, Christian nationalism, it's either Christian 0.70

00:51:07.460 tribalism or pagan tribalism, Christian nationalism or pagan nationalism, Christian globalism or pagan

00:51:13.560 globalism. It's not globalism. It's nationalism. It's also not tribalism. Certainly we want to be

00:51:19.040 involved in local ministry. Cities and counties and towns matter. Absolutely. But nations and

00:51:28.080 borders and time periods, this is God's idea. It's biblically clear in the text. And the nations

00:51:36.720 are Christ's inheritance. And we're working towards those nations, kissing the sun, honoring the sun.

00:51:42.040 Um, so that's Doug Wilson's position and just saying, okay, so in that sense, then, yeah,

00:51:47.520 um, it's not a name that I would pick out of a hat, um, that I would choose for myself.

00:51:52.280 Um, but if somebody is going to throw the label on me, I'll wear it.

00:51:55.760 Yeah.

00:51:56.180 Um, because it's not weather, but which it's not weather, but which, um, I'm a Christian

00:52:01.140 nationalist because I'm sure as heck not a pagan nationalist.

00:52:04.480 Now that gets to the next point, secular humanism.

00:52:07.220 And I've got some notes for today.

00:52:08.740 uh the third wayism right this kind of keller way of thinking um it just it doesn't work so

00:52:18.860 some people say yeah well you know yeah i'm i agree with you joel um nationalism is more

00:52:24.740 biblically sound than than tribalism or globalism um but you're saying it's either christian

00:52:30.800 nationalism or pagan nationalism well why not something in between why not a third option

00:52:38.240 there's christian nationalism pagan nationalism what about just secular humanism and they wouldn't

00:52:44.720 say that you know they're too smart for that what about principled pluralism right what about

00:52:49.280 classical liberalism what about these are the the ways that it would be positive and this is where

00:52:56.600 you go back to me being a presuppositionalist and um and theonomic i would strongly strongly

00:53:05.520 insist that neutrality is a myth neutrality is a myth a word about secularism there are hosts

00:53:16.820 to use this analogy there are hosts and there are parasites now some hosts are more viable than

00:53:23.760 others there's only one truly indefinitely viable host and that is christian worldview

00:53:30.260 the christian faith but there are also other hosts meaning that that they they are viable

00:53:36.700 in and of themselves not indefinitely um they eventually will break down but they have some

00:53:42.960 measure some degree of viability outside of the christian religion the christian faith is the only

00:53:48.780 truly viable host but there are also christian heresies right that that because they're a

00:53:57.300 spinoff of christianity they have some host-like characteristics they have some degree of viability

00:54:05.200 islam and judaism would be two examples judaism is a christian heresy because it's not just

00:54:13.500 it's not just uh what christians believed until the new testament what christians believed up

00:54:18.360 until 2 000 years ago no christianity is the old testament seen through the lens of the new

00:54:23.880 testament judaism is not just christianity minus the new testament no we have old testament plus

00:54:31.380 new testament they have old testament torah plus talmud they have a new testament essentially

00:54:38.160 it is the talmud and it is a twisting and perverting of the old testament so it's not that

00:54:43.600 they have an incomplete worldview that they only have half of the christian faith they have the

00:54:49.460 old testament whereas we have the old and the new no we have the old clarified through the new

00:54:55.080 they have the old twisted and perverted by the talmud their essential new testament and so in

00:55:02.380 that sense judaism is not there's no such thing as a judeo-christian ethic that's that's like 0.70

00:55:09.340 saying that you know jumbo shrimp right that's like an intelligent liberal you know like it's

00:55:15.440 an oxymoron there is no such thing as a judeo-christian ethic um judaism is a christian 0.84

00:55:21.820 heresy as islam is now even though they're christian heresies they are they do function

00:55:30.020 as hosts in the sense that they there is a certain measure of viability now secularism 0.83

00:55:35.800 is entirely different okay so there are there are there's the one true indefinitely viable host

00:55:42.120 there's only one that's the christian faith there are other hosts that are not indefinitely viable

00:55:47.160 but have some measure of viability christian heresies like islam and judaism and there are

00:55:51.940 other less viable than christian heresies but still would fall in the host category not this

00:55:57.100 other category i'm about to explain but still fall into the host category with some viability

00:56:02.020 but even less than a christian heresy like islam or judaism and that would be pagan world views

00:56:08.400 um so that you know um old you know like norse mythology or you know um you know thor's day and

00:56:16.440 you know greek mythology and you know roman greco-roman kind of um worldviews these kinds

00:56:22.620 of things um would still fall into the host category but it would be a host with a smaller

00:56:28.620 degree of viability then a host with a larger degree of viability would be not a pagan worldview

00:56:34.480 but a Christian heresy, Islam and Judaism. And then the only truly long-term, indefinitely viable

00:56:42.640 host is the Christian faith. Now, the reason why all of them I'm classifying as hosts, 1.00

00:56:49.880 as opposed to what I'm about to get to, a parasite. The reason why I'm classifying all

00:56:55.000 of them as hosts is because they have some measure of viability. And when I say viability,

00:56:59.240 what I mean is certain basic natural principles that come from the scripture and from nature,

00:57:04.480 um both the thomas could could could affirm what i'm about to say and a presuppositionalist

00:57:09.960 but those kinds of principles what i'm alluding to is like marriage and children

00:57:15.380 a society every society is not whether but which they're going to have a worldview

00:57:20.360 it's just which one not whether they have a worldview but which worldview are they going

00:57:25.580 to have that shapes their customs it shapes their laws it shapes their culture their traditions all

00:57:31.560 these different things they're going to have a worldview and and some worldview views are viable

00:57:36.900 they're in a host category and some more viable than others as i've already discussed 0.93

00:57:42.200 and some are not viable at all they fall into a parasite category right islam has massive problems 0.98

00:57:50.520 massive problems but islam can last a lot longer than secular humanism 0.93

00:57:58.300 if for no other reason because islam can still understand and acknowledge that there are men 0.74

00:58:07.020 and women that marriage is a good thing and that procreation is a virtue 1.00

00:58:14.340 islam will outlast it will mark my words islam will i think will be one of the last in the last 1.00

00:58:23.580 of Christ's enemies to be defeated, the very last will be death upon his final return, his final 1.00

00:58:28.340 bodily physical return at the end of the age. But I think in human history, as the tree is growing,

00:58:35.740 as the leaven is leavening the whole lump of dough, progressively throughout human history 0.74

00:58:40.620 in the Christianizing of the world and one by one in this gospel age, Christ's enemies being

00:58:46.420 progressively subjected underneath his feet, right? That's 1 Corinthians 15. He must reign.

00:58:52.260 He is reigning now and progressively, one by one, his enemies are being footstooled and

00:58:58.160 then the last, not first, but last to be defeated at his death.

00:59:01.920 Well, I think one of the last before his final return and death being the very last, one

00:59:06.440 of the last in progressive human history throughout this gospel age that will be footstooled 1.00

00:59:10.880 will be Islam.

00:59:12.560 And the reason why is because Islam is viable. 0.93

00:59:17.600 Again, not indefinitely viable, not to the same degree as the Christian faith.

00:59:21.340 but it is a host and it is one of the most viable hosts because in so many ways it mimics the

00:59:28.260 christian faith it it calls virtuous many things not all but many things that christianity calls

00:59:35.420 virtuous and it calls a vice many things not all but many things that christianity calls

00:59:41.700 a vice secular humanism on the other hand is not a host not even a a a barely viable host like

00:59:50.340 certain forms of pagan worldviews now secular humanism falls into a whole other category

00:59:57.460 not the host category but the parasite category and secular humanism has never worked will never 0.91

01:00:06.200 work can never work but has only appeared to work because as any good parasite does

01:00:14.260 it props itself up off of the lifeblood of a host and the host for secular humanism in the west

01:00:24.400 has been chrysidom and as chrysidom falls which it is right now as chrysidom in the west is

01:00:32.780 rejected right when the foundations are destroyed what can the righteous do the scripture says

01:00:37.660 as chrysidom wanes in the west what you see is that's the host dying and the irony with all

01:00:46.860 parasites is that they get their life from their host but eventually kill their host and

01:00:54.700 consequently kill themselves i think we're seeing in many ways we're seeing wokeness and marxism

01:01:01.200 neo-marxism and you know intersectionality and crt and a lot of these fruits of secularism

01:01:08.120 we're seeing a lot of them start to take some serious hits and prove to be you know i mean 0.91

01:01:12.580 the whole transgenderism thing like that's not viable right it is not a viable world view 0.98

01:01:17.460 to murder children in the womb and then the ones that we missed with our eugenics crusade 1.00

01:01:24.440 because that's what it is the ones that we missed and our attempts to murder them in the womb 0.99

01:01:30.360 well we'll sexually you know mutilate them as children sex reassignment and 0.96

01:01:38.480 surgeries and removing reproductive organs and all this kind of stuff at a young age when they 0.96

01:01:45.600 don't even know what the heck's going on right well of course that's not a viable worldview that

01:01:49.200 that doesn't last and we're already starting to see like how i mean a lot of people like we're

01:01:56.380 starting oh this is this is insane so secularism is killing itself right now but my fear is that

01:02:01.760 secularism is is right now imploding but it's imploding because simultaneously its host chrysida

01:02:10.960 is imploding my position is the west the choice is not ultimately between christian nationalism

01:02:17.100 or secular nationalism the reason why i said christian nationalism versus pagan nationalism

01:02:21.440 This is my whole point, going back to those six options, Christian tribalism, secular

01:02:26.860 tribalism, Christian nationalism, secular nationalism, Christian globalism, secular

01:02:31.280 globalism.

01:02:31.960 I'm putting the choice within the nationalism category between Christian and pagan nationalism

01:02:37.140 and not Christian and secular nationalism because, here's the point, because secularism

01:02:42.620 is only a placeholder.

01:02:44.760 It's not a host.

01:02:47.000 There's no viability. 0.87

01:02:48.040 It is only a parasite. 1.00

01:02:48.960 secularism has only served as a parasite propping itself up appearing to be viable appearing to work 0.99

01:02:56.960 on the the lifeblood and the fumes running off of the fumes of the prior host which in the west 0.57

01:03:03.040 has been chrysidom and once if we'll see what god does but if slash when it kills the host chrysidom

01:03:11.700 it too will die with it. And what will replace it will not be secular nationalism. It will be

01:03:19.040 pagan nationalism. If you guys haven't heard it already, you got to check out the theology

01:03:25.240 podcast with Chris Wiley and Glenn Sunshine and a couple other guys, I forget their names.

01:03:31.200 But they did one a few weeks back, maybe two, three weeks ago, called, I think it's called

01:03:36.640 the rise of the old gods and they talk about how right now um they give all these examples but uh

01:03:44.280 right now there are there is a rise uh not in in this atheistic agnostic scientific rationalistic

01:03:52.920 secularism no they talk about right now in 2023 and not in some some you know

01:04:00.680 primitive bush you know in in a third world country but in the west in america in europe

01:04:10.100 there is a notable rise a return to paganism and old greek pagan gods and the worship and

01:04:20.720 recognition of pagan gods those are the choices it's tribalism nationalism or globalism biblically

01:04:28.980 it should be nationalism okay within that category it's christian nationalism or secular 0.54

01:04:34.160 national that's a placeholder that's a parasite that's not a long-term viable host it's christian

01:04:41.520 nationalism or pagan nationalism so yes now that i've defined my terms um because those are the

01:04:50.820 choices and i'm convinced that there is no other yeah i'm a christian nationalist i'm not a pagan

01:04:56.920 nationalists tell you that and secularism i'm able to see through the smoke and mirrors see that

01:05:03.280 secularism has always been a facade it always has so christian nationalism it is all right

01:05:10.600 next point let's see the next tweet by josh bice it's more of the same um but just so you see that

01:05:17.720 it wasn't just one tweet you know this continued to be talked about so the last tweet for those

01:05:21.980 who are just now tuning in you know we uh showed how josh was like i'm against you know i'm

01:05:26.900 not a big fan of um christian nationalism and you know the the final thing that he said

01:05:32.300 oh okay josh is commenting so i'm going to look at those in just a second but the last thing he

01:05:39.860 said was however i wholeheartedly reject christian nationalism that links church and state and opens

01:05:45.740 the gate for a protestant pope right then show the next tweet real quick and josh if you're here

01:05:51.080 i'll get to you in just one second um he said my christian nationalism questions are purposeful

01:05:56.640 so today i'd like to know if any of my twitter friends and support uh would support integralism

01:06:06.700 including any variety under the banner of uh christian nationalism now i commented on that

01:06:16.320 i retweeted it and i said this and then i'll look at josh's comments depending what they are

01:06:21.460 probably let him on the show um but i said brother we are arguing for a nationwide pan-protestantism

01:06:29.260 not catholicism creedal at the federal level not confessional when i say creedal just for the

01:06:35.840 record what i mean by that i'm talking about the apostles creed i'm talking about the nicene creed

01:06:40.180 i'm talking about something that a baptist a presbyterian a lutheran an anglican um that that

01:06:45.340 we can all affirm um i would be against having a state church at the federal level right uh the the

01:06:54.020 presbyterian you know the presbyterian church is the national church i think doug wilson says it

01:06:59.500 like this uh it's okay to have a national bird like the bald eagle and then state birds i'm in

01:07:05.180 texas the mockingbird because you don't have civil wars over which bird is best right you don't pick

01:07:11.640 up arms say mockingbird you know versus bald eagle um but you will get into some serious trouble

01:07:18.320 and potential war territory if it's uh at the federal level presbyterianism and texas is reformed

01:07:25.660 baptist that's going to be a problem so um creedal not confessional um meaning by design not laziness

01:07:35.080 but by intentional design a pan-protestant um a pan-protestant christian nationalism

01:07:41.880 at the federal level not catholicism creedal not confessional the ten commandments not a

01:07:48.600 veneration of idols um the term and then this is what i said the term integralism is not particularly

01:07:55.140 helpful to this discussion because it will be seen as catholic um and that's not at least for

01:08:02.780 the Christian nationalists that I'm seeing in the Twitterverse, myself being included,

01:08:07.720 that's not what we're arguing for.

01:08:09.540 We're not Catholic.

01:08:11.240 We are Baptist, some of us, many Presbyterian.

01:08:15.900 And so we are arguing not for a Catholic version of Christian nationalism, but a pan-Protestant

01:08:22.460 version of Christian nationalism, which is, we believe, the origin of our country, that

01:08:26.020 it wasn't Catholic, but distinctly Protestant with the Founders, with the Puritans, the

01:08:31.540 covenanters that that is the history of our nation all right let me read real quick so

01:08:35.580 nathan do i start with them okay just fyi i'm completely against the idea of impotent pietism 0.75

01:08:42.880 okay i'll talk about that impotent pietism that retreats and avoids addressing the issues

01:08:49.120 in the public square amen thank you for that next post-millennialism and christian nationalism

01:08:56.160 is not required in order to address matters of the public square. I actually don't think

01:09:03.920 postmillennialism is required. I think you should be a postmillennial. But again, it depends on how

01:09:11.340 you're defining Christian nationalism. It's the CN problem. Postmillennialism and CN, Christian 1.00

01:09:16.880 nationalism, is not required in order to address matters of the public square. I reject that

01:09:22.180 caricature. And then last, I reject the idea of Baptist hiding under pews and praying,

01:09:30.180 come quickly, Lord Jesus. We do pray, Josh, and you know this, we do pray, don't tarry,

01:09:34.260 come quickly, Lord, but not while hiding under pews, ideally sitting on the pews or standing, 1.00

01:09:41.020 maybe even kneeling, but that feels a little bit too Catholic, and I don't want the Protestant 0.69

01:09:44.880 Pope. I think that we should, let me get that last part, Nathan, I'm sorry. I reject the idea 0.94

01:09:50.800 a Baptist hiding under pews praying, come Lord Jesus, come quickly Lord Jesus, I think we should

01:09:56.120 preach openly and trust Christ for the outcome. Yes, I think there's more, but yes. When the

01:10:03.800 social justice controversy erupted, the movers and shakers denied it. However, they were purporting

01:10:11.580 neo-Marxism openly. To be clear, soft or moderate or neo-integralism is dangerous. Okay, let me

01:10:21.500 comment on that. Are there more comments, Nathan, from Josh? Okay, let me comment on some of that.

01:10:26.080 Okay, here are some of my thoughts. Let's talk about the neo-Marxists, the whole wokeology,

01:10:32.800 critical race theory, intersectionality, that whole nine yards. So Josh, you may not know this

01:10:38.700 if you're still listening, but I was a pastor in Acts 29 at the time. There's a guy, I think his

01:10:44.740 name is Chase or Josh Davis. Chase Davis. He was recently on Hard Man Podcast with Eric Kahn. Eric

01:10:55.280 Kahn is a friend of mine. The Ogden, Utah guys, Refuge Church and Kings Hall podcast. Great

01:11:00.580 podcast to listen to. Listen to the Kings Hall. Listen to Haunted Cosmos. If you're like, all

01:11:05.760 right this is some heated debate about you know with baptists and christian nationalism i want to

01:11:09.700 listen to something that just is a little bit more light-hearted than listen to their uh mothman

01:11:14.200 series with haunted cosmos from a christian you know perspective and uh and it'll be wacky and

01:11:19.700 weird but also really really cool so um all that being said eric con he had chase on there recently

01:11:25.940 and chase just recently got out of acts 29 and i'm grateful for that praise god chase seems like

01:11:31.300 a solid dude. I listened to him. I probably have him on the show sometime. But I'll be honest,

01:11:36.020 I was frustrated five years ago because it's 2023 now. I was frustrated in 2018 when Eric Mason

01:11:42.660 wrote Woke Church. And I read it and I left Acts 29 and pulled my church out within months.

01:11:51.100 I first tried to combat it at the local level with my area lead pastor and some other guys

01:11:56.040 and had some conversations and was characterized as being harsh and quarrelsome and all those

01:12:00.540 kinds of things and realized I'm not going to win and pulled the church out. And I remember feeling

01:12:05.540 like in talking to some other X-29 guys who agreed with me that weren't in my area, but, you know,

01:12:09.680 but I had, you know, I had friendship with them. They're a little further away and talking on the

01:12:13.020 phone and they agreed, but they just, they, they weren't there yet. They weren't willing to make

01:12:17.700 a stand. Now, all those guys actually have now left too. But my point is this. Yeah. The woke

01:12:23.200 stuff was atrocious. And, um, and I was in the belly of the beast, right? Other, other than,

01:12:28.880 you know city to city you know and tim keller i mean acts 29 is is was about as woke as you can

01:12:34.860 get and still is um and so i pulled my church out of that and got a lot of flack and i remember when

01:12:42.760 i did that um one of the things that that i that i started kind of reeling against was uh abraham

01:12:52.520 Kuyper and Kuyperianism because Acts 29 there's two guys that they would quote a lot and it was

01:13:01.060 Tim Keller they would call him Yoda and Tim Keller's face would pop up on the screen at our

01:13:06.400 regional conferences quote from Tim Keller you know sometimes like they would literally put it

01:13:10.720 like you know jokingly but Yoda instead of Tim Keller like Tim Keller's not even in Acts 29 but

01:13:18.160 he was the godfather of Acts 29 and so the neo-Marxism was strong with Acts 29 and sadly I

01:13:24.640 think still is but they would quote Tim Keller the other guy that they would quote is Kuyper

01:13:29.640 and so when I like saw okay this is this is bad this is woke this is antithetical to the

01:13:37.040 Christian worldview this whole social gospel this whole victimology all this kind of stuff because

01:13:42.260 it's not biblical justice social justice the problem with social justice is that it's antithetical

01:13:47.440 to biblical justice. It is another kind of justice, namely injustice. It doesn't have

01:13:52.220 equal weights and measures. It's not proportional. It's not swift. It's not blind, right? All the

01:13:59.520 different characteristics of what make biblical justice actually justice is that it doesn't show

01:14:04.720 favoritism. It's not partial to the rich, but it's also not partial to the poor. Lady Justice is blind

01:14:10.020 and she's holding a sword, right? It's swift justice, right? When justice is delayed, right? 1.00

01:14:15.760 wickedness rises up right the people rebel and so justice needs to be swift it needs to be

01:14:22.220 impartial doesn't matter who's committing the crime no one is above the law it's so it's

01:14:27.560 impartial it's blind it's swift it's also proportional that's and that's biblical law

01:14:32.600 that's general equity theonomy that's 10 commandments it's eye for an eye life for a

01:14:37.940 life tooth for a tooth it's proportional and social justice is is none of those things social

01:14:44.520 justice says a police officer just shot a pedestrian and before i can decide what's just

01:14:49.620 i need to know what uh what skin pigment the police officer and the pedestrian have well that's

01:14:55.160 how you know you're not doing justice because you're saying before i can determine justice i

01:14:59.060 need to remove the blindfold i must be partial well then you're not you can be partial or you

01:15:05.840 can be just you can't be both so i'm with you with that here's what i did is i think i threw out the

01:15:12.620 baby with the bathwater. I threw out Kuiper because what I didn't like what Acts 29 was doing, 0.98

01:15:17.580 they're quoting Kuiper all the time. They're quoting Keller. And some of you guys will

01:15:20.380 remember this. Some of you won't, but remember it was, this was, I don't know, almost 10 years ago

01:15:24.980 at this point. Um, but Keller came out with this like three minute video and it was like really

01:15:30.640 animated really well. You know, it was high quality, but it was basically saying like,

01:15:36.460 we are trying to reach a tipping point in New York of 10% Christians. Currently we're at three 0.71

01:15:42.540 percent um that identify as christians that profess christ or what we think is genuine

01:15:47.540 christian i can't remember if it was professing christians or genuine christians i don't know

01:15:50.840 how that would be measured but um three percent we need to get to ten percent if we get to ten

01:15:54.800 percent we believe that that represents a tipping point and that it will affect all of christian

01:15:59.340 life that art would he said art would become more hopeful and this would become you know

01:16:03.180 more ethical and that would be you know and it would um and it would change the city

01:16:07.400 and i loved that video and that was a long time ago especially for me i'm 37 years old so that

01:16:15.580 you know towards the beginning of my ministry uh formal pastoral ministry as a young x 29 church

01:16:21.580 planter and so i'm watching that and i'm thinking that's good but then i'm looking at keller's

01:16:28.740 really influenced by kuyper when he says this tipping point that we're christian the christian

01:16:33.560 faith will infect infiltrate um influence all these other spheres of like art for instance

01:16:41.380 that's the ever square square inch sentiment that's kyperian and now acts 29 is picking this

01:16:47.620 is kyperian but then it quickly became woke social justice and so i thought man i need to 0.78

01:16:54.400 get rid of kyper and i quickly just put my tail between my legs and ran into never radical two 0.95

01:17:02.040 kingdom theology but classic two kingdom theology thinking that's the solution let's just sacred 0.73

01:17:08.360 common and let's just preach hot gospel and administer rightly the sacraments baptism in

01:17:16.260 the lord's supper do the work of an evangelist disciple plant churches and yeah and that's what

01:17:25.760 i'm going to do that's the solution i'm going to do that and only that and that is the solution

01:17:30.160 and we can never do less than that because that is the tip of the spear

01:17:34.680 but then i realized that the problem with keller and i said this a few podcasts ago

01:17:40.720 the problem with keller was not his embrace of kuiper the problem with keller was his embrace

01:17:46.160 of marx tim keller's problem is not abraham kuiper tim keller's problem is carl marx

01:17:55.740 so kuiper again not agreeing with everything from kuiper but when i say i'm kuiperian in the same

01:18:02.020 way that somebody somebody would say i'm a calvinist and they don't agree with every every

01:18:05.880 jot and tittle of of calvin's um uh institute so the christian uh religion right so which very few

01:18:12.560 guys who claim to be calvinists have even read by god's grace and it and it it took a lot of god's

01:18:18.040 grace but i i read all of calvin's institutes and i agree with a lot but i don't agree with all of

01:18:23.560 um and and yet i would you know happily say i'm a calvinist that's what i mean when i say i'm

01:18:29.320 kyperian i don't believe every jot and tittle of something that that you know abraham kuyper

01:18:33.220 wrote and everything that he believed but when i say kyperian in the same way someone says i'm a

01:18:38.100 calvinist they're primarily speaking of the five points of calvinism tulip reform soteriology god

01:18:44.060 saves god's sovereignty and election and salvation they're saying i'm a calvinist in that sense when

01:18:48.720 i say i'm a kyperian i mean not one square inch of all the earth that christ doesn't cry out

01:18:54.400 mine so that's what so when i say kyperianism i mean all of christ for all of life right um in

01:19:00.720 the same way that many people when they say i'm a calvinist they mean god is sovereign in salvation

01:19:05.940 monergism when i say i'm a kyperian i mean all of christ for all of life this is the problem with

01:19:11.960 keller his problem was not the all of life the second half of that statement all of christ for

01:19:17.720 all of life. The problem is that Keller replaced all of Christ with some of Christ and a good deal

01:19:26.760 of Karl Marx for all of life. That's the problem. That was the problem. The solution to the social

01:19:35.760 justice gospel and all these kinds of things, transformative, you know, theology, like 0.95

01:19:42.880 transformation theology that Josh is concerned about is not getting rid of Kuiper. It's not

01:19:49.200 getting rid of theology coming out of our fingertips, as Doug Wilson sometimes says.

01:19:53.440 It's not throwing out the baby with the bathwater with Christendom and the Christianizing of the

01:19:58.900 world and discipling, yes, individuals, but also discipling nations. That is not the problem. It's

01:20:06.440 not all of Christ. It's not seeking for Christian arts and Christian government and Christian this 0.86

01:20:10.880 Christian. The social gospel woke guys, where they got off the rails, is not their insistence

01:20:18.500 that our theology should impact justice and impact culture and impact this and that. It's

01:20:29.660 not the all of life piece. It's the all of Christ piece that has to be in place. Eric Mason in Woke

01:20:36.520 church eric mason is it's not his all of life insistence um it was his utter neglect of all

01:20:44.300 of christ that got him in trouble same with keller same with paul david tripp um same with david

01:20:52.980 platt same with a lot of guys i'll leave it there for now um it's not that they cared about all

01:21:00.780 of life it's that they stopped caring about all of christ um and they started substituting some

01:21:07.560 of christ maybe they still had some left but some of christ for some of vain philosophy

01:21:13.080 and worldly ideology um i think that was the problem and so go back to josh's last comment

01:21:21.920 one more time no okay yeah that's it when the social justice controversy erupted

01:21:28.500 the movers and shakers denied it yes they did however they were purporting neo-marxism openly

01:21:36.060 yes they were to be clear soft or moderate or neo-integralism is dangerous again you've got

01:21:45.940 to define integralism all right so here let me i pulled this up earlier i'm gonna have to find it

01:21:50.900 real quick but i'll pull it up i'm going to get us a definition because we i i don't want to talk

01:21:59.460 past each other and i'm i'm gonna if josh is willing i'll have him on the show and i would

01:22:04.120 love to talk to him because g3 they're solid brothers and we need them um i don't want to

01:22:10.800 i don't want it to be me and three other christian nationalists sitting by ourselves trying to change

01:22:17.660 the world um we need a big tent we need a big tent and honestly josh just for the record i don't

01:22:23.260 care if you wear the label christian nationalist i'm not a huge fan of it either um all of christ

01:22:29.620 for all of life christian nations um i do believe that that's non-negotiable and and and the things

01:22:38.920 that have concerned me the most is is not even your tweets but more so scott's in terms of the

01:22:44.140 anti chrysidom you know what let me just do this here's one of scott's tweets today and i'm sure

01:22:50.980 you saw it josh um if you're still listening but here's one of his tweets and and this is not

01:22:56.660 just for everybody who's watching for the audience if you're wondering all right this is one of his

01:23:01.700 tweets is this a bad one or a good one let me be very plain this is a bad one this is this is not

01:23:07.200 where you want to be when jesus comes back tweeting things like this all right so um mark gustav

01:23:13.200 uh comp he he retweeted scott um an oil i don't know how to say it i'm gonna say an oil i know

01:23:20.060 that's probably wrong but scott said this uh initially he said it would be perfectly acceptable

01:23:24.940 for an hoa to decide to close the community pool on sunday but you still shouldn't call it a

01:23:32.560 christian neighborhood then mark retweeted and said what do you call plymouth colony

01:23:37.760 when they agreed in the mayflower compact that they were founding their colony and this is a

01:23:44.980 quote in the mayflower compact they were founding their colony for the glory of god and the

01:23:50.760 advancement of the christian faith close quote so all right so you don't call a neighborhood that

01:23:57.040 that observes you know um that's sabbatarian when it comes to the hoa and the pool being closed on

01:24:03.340 sunday scott's saying that's fine but it's not a christian neighborhood okay well then mark says

01:24:09.820 what do you call plymouth colony then right you don't call that a christian neighborhood

01:24:13.860 okay what do you call plymouth plymouth colony when they agreed in the mayflower compact that

01:24:20.360 they were found in their colony quote for the glory of god and the advancement of the christian

01:24:25.820 faith close quote and scott replied what you call it is unbiblical

01:24:32.080 that's a that's a bad tweet you know that's a bad look

01:24:40.480 what you call a group of christians who flee tyranny right so there are concerns

01:24:50.000 the flea tyranny to try to start a christian colony they're doing it for the glory of god 0.64

01:24:57.560 and the advancement of the christian faith a settlement a colony um and what is one of g3's 0.67

01:25:06.640 takes on that unbiblical i i don't i don't think so so all that being said back to what i was

01:25:16.020 saying before i pulled up scott's tweet is um my goal is not to get everyone within the reform

01:25:22.760 baptist camp to publicly you know change their twitter handle to say um proud christian

01:25:29.380 nationalists christian nationalists is not in my twitter handle and i usually don't talk about it

01:25:34.720 but it's just this has been such a public conversation i i i feel as though i have a

01:25:38.940 vested interest um but it's not so much about whether or not people wear the label christian

01:25:45.360 nationalists again i've already said i like doug wilson's mere chrysidom better than christian

01:25:51.520 nationalists but that's the problem that's why i'm engaged that's why i'm having this conversation

01:25:55.340 is because they're not just saying christian nationalists is an unhelpful term because

01:26:00.280 anytime you add ism like nationalism um it conveys certain things and nationalism has

01:26:07.400 a really checkered past and like like things with germany and the third reich and that's not a good

01:26:14.700 look and so we don't want to embrace this nationalism christian nationalism label because

01:26:20.660 we think it actually does more harm than good uh but yes and amen 100 percent um we want to see all

01:26:28.680 the nations kiss the sun lest he be angry we want to see christian nations and that absolutely

01:26:32.900 involves um every single element of of a society and and of course that involves their their laws

01:26:41.240 and justice and government and all these things.

01:26:44.600 We want to see the Ten Commandments back up on courthouses

01:26:47.100 and we want to see, yeah, we want to see America unapologetically

01:26:52.400 and declaring its explicit and public allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ.

01:27:00.580 But that's not what G3 is saying.

01:27:03.040 They're not just saying we don't like Christian nationalism, but yes, we want this. 0.85

01:27:06.620 They're saying beyond just we don't want Christian nationalism

01:27:09.280 or we don't like the label, they're saying,

01:27:10.720 baptist theology is incompatible with chrysidom not just christian nationalism but chrysidom and

01:27:17.740 i've got a lot more but let me say this and i may end it here

01:27:23.200 i think and again the invitation is open for josh to come on the show

01:27:29.220 but i think until he does doing my best charitably to guess at what some of the incentives are

01:27:37.380 because i think the incentives are good because i believe that these are good men i think that

01:27:43.220 one of the incentives is um that josh and scott and and some of the g3 folk um they want to see

01:27:52.100 people saved amen me too and they are convinced that one of the the biggest enemies of genuine 0.90

01:28:03.680 conversion regeneration of individual people because individual people are the only people

01:28:09.320 that god saves that he regenerates so when we say christian to mean regeneration then yes only

01:28:15.800 individual people can be christian that's not what we mean though when we say a christian school

01:28:20.200 a christian church even right the church the invisible universal church um is christian in

01:28:27.760 the sense that it is regenerate, right? That's Baptist theology. But even Baptists, right? We

01:28:34.040 don't stretch the new covenant as our Presbyterian brothers do, but even Baptists have visible and 0.75

01:28:41.060 invisible categories for you. That would be one of my questions is, I would want to say, Josh, Scott,

01:28:47.560 the invisible church, the universal invisible church, is it Christian? And of course they

01:28:54.220 would say yes and so would i but then i would want to ask what about the visible church what about

01:28:59.120 your visible local church that that you know man looks at the outward appearance god alone sees the

01:29:07.460 heart we look for fruit we look for a credible profession of faith life and doctrine a testimony

01:29:12.000 that aligns with that proclamation of the gospel all those things we're baptists we practice

01:29:16.660 regenerate church membership but at the end of the day we also practice church discipline

01:29:20.260 and there are people that we welcomed into membership and that we baptize that ultimately

01:29:25.500 go apostate which means that the visible church is assumed to be made up especially if it's larger

01:29:33.900 a larger visible local church that we pastor is assumed that it's going to have unregenerate

01:29:40.560 people in it so one of my questions would be can we even call the church christian

01:29:46.160 speaking specifically of local visible churches can can i as a pastor say i pastor covenant bible

01:29:54.460 church oh well what what kind of church is it right if i'm talking to an atheist who has no

01:30:00.120 idea you know like covenant doesn't strike a bell for him you know bible doesn't even strike a bell

01:30:04.220 like it's a christian church is it i would say yes of course it is of course it is we can have

01:30:10.680 Christian families with infants that are not yet regenerate. As far as we know, we can have

01:30:16.740 Christian visible churches, local visible churches, just as we have, not just as it's not in the same

01:30:22.500 way, but we can use Christian and it's totally authentic and permissible and right and appropriate

01:30:29.380 to use Christian visible churches. And we can have, I believe we can have Christian schools

01:30:35.100 and Christian seminaries. And yes, I believe we can have Christian neighborhoods and we can have

01:30:40.640 christian countries we can have christian nations now all that being said back to incentives motives 1.00

01:30:46.220 what's what's behind this i think that the g3 guys they genuinely believe that more people

01:30:51.360 are actually christian in the sense of regeneration truly christian born again

01:30:56.920 that they believe that that um that that happens most or best most frequent or whatever

01:31:05.600 in hostile environments to Christianity.

01:31:09.660 I think they see Christendom

01:31:11.400 as an enemy of individual conversion.

01:31:15.240 I think that's what it comes down to.

01:31:17.420 And I had notes about, you know,

01:31:19.160 explaining general equity theonomy,

01:31:21.180 moral and natural law being synonymous

01:31:23.140 with the Decalogue, Ten Commandments.

01:31:25.540 And of course, all this in terms of,

01:31:27.920 okay, well, what does it mean to be a Christian nation?

01:31:29.400 What laws are enforced?

01:31:30.280 I believe it's moral law, the Ten Commandments.

01:31:32.280 That being said, there are caveats and disclaimers.

01:31:34.640 I have to do a part two

01:31:35.560 because there's a difference between sins and crimes, right?

01:31:38.260 We don't have the coveting police,

01:31:39.860 but we do have the murder police.

01:31:41.920 But that does bring into question,

01:31:43.360 what about adultery, right?

01:31:45.260 What would the penalty for adultery be? 1.00

01:31:47.540 There would be a penalty for adultery. 0.99

01:31:49.500 That also gets into civil codes, right?

01:31:52.620 So we have moral, we have ceremonial, we have civil law.

01:31:55.360 I am a 1689 Baptist,

01:31:56.920 so the general equity of the civil law continues.

01:31:59.480 And the reason why is because the general equity

01:32:01.760 of the civil law tracks back to the moral law.

01:32:03.840 You can find its root in the Ten Commandments, but in terms of determining what is a just

01:32:08.800 penalty, I think we can look at the penalties in the Old Testament given to Israel for breaking

01:32:14.460 civil codes that have their general equity in the moral law of God, the Ten Commandments. 0.73

01:32:20.520 But when we look at those penalties, for the record, I would agree with Doug Wilson and

01:32:24.380 others that this is a maximum penalty.

01:32:27.020 Just like you find a sign in Texas that says, don't mess with Texas, maximum fine for littering

01:32:32.680 is you know uh five thousand dollars or two years in prison right but there aren't a lot of cases

01:32:39.160 right it's not like you got uh texans by the hundreds on a daily basis going to prison for

01:32:44.660 two years for uh for throwing a coke can out their window um that's the maximum penalty it is legal

01:32:50.560 it can happen um but it's uncommon so two in the same way if somebody is a homosexual

01:32:56.100 in a christian nation what i would advocate for we're not saying that the first go-to is the

01:33:03.620 death penalty but there is a difference there are differing degrees in terms of is this private

01:33:09.980 it's still sin and it's still crying because what we have learned if anything over the last three

01:33:15.620 to five years in the insanity that is america right now is that what people do in the privacy

01:33:21.060 of their own home eventually comes out, that it doesn't stay private and that it does actually

01:33:26.240 harm society as a whole. It does. That principled pluralism doesn't work because it turns out that

01:33:33.900 false gods and the triune God don't play nice. They don't play well together. One will beat out

01:33:41.800 the other, always. And so there would be a penalty, but there's a difference in this person

01:33:48.140 who is privately sinning and committing a crime,

01:33:51.680 coveting would not be a crime. 0.76

01:33:53.860 Homosexuality in private would still be a crime, 0.94

01:33:55.780 but a different degree 0.97

01:33:56.720 than throwing a public gay pride parade.

01:34:00.520 There'd also be something to be said

01:34:01.780 for repeat offenders.

01:34:03.840 Something to be said.

01:34:04.520 And so, and eventually it could be,

01:34:05.840 I'm sorry, you know,

01:34:06.720 this is a repeat offender several times,

01:34:08.640 harming society. 0.98

01:34:09.700 The death penalty is permissible

01:34:11.640 within biblical case law,

01:34:13.360 and that's going to be exacted by a judge

01:34:16.060 after a fair trial.

01:34:17.420 of your peers in a court of law. That would be a Christian government. That would be a Christian

01:34:23.760 society. The big question is, does the government enforce, of course, the first four of the Ten 0.95

01:34:28.460 Commandments, the first table of the law, not just in regards to our moral obligation towards our

01:34:34.260 neighbor, Commandments 5 through 10, but our moral obligation toward God? And the answer is yes.

01:34:41.940 And you can argue this. You don't have to be a theonomist, actually. And you don't even have

01:34:46.820 to be post-millennial actually. Um, and you don't have to be a Kuyperian. You can be, um, you can 0.74

01:34:52.960 be, you can be a, a Thomistic, um, classical 2K, two kingdom guy, right, right in the vein of John

01:35:02.980 Calvin. And, um, and you can quite easily, you can be all millennial. You can even be historic

01:35:09.140 pre-millennial and very easily argue that all Ten Commandments should be enforced by the civil

01:35:18.660 magistrate. Again, distinction between sins and crimes, but with the first four of the Ten

01:35:26.340 Commandments, what you'd be getting at in that instance would be, can a Christian nation have 0.88

01:35:32.200 a mosque right publicly erected buildings places of worship but ultimately places of false worship 0.95

01:35:40.040 to false gods and the answer is in a christian nation no no you cannot you cannot have that 0.84

01:35:47.520 and there would be penalties there would be fines and if there was persisting eventually there would

01:35:54.440 be stronger penalties that these things would be condemned and they would be condemned with

01:35:59.860 cultural um cultural sanctions if you will right that's what we've had with the whole woke nonsense

01:36:05.780 is at first it was just being canceled through cultural pressure right um that you you're kicked

01:36:12.360 off twitter you know um that you you know your employer fires you you know that your friends

01:36:17.540 don't want to talk to you anymore this or that um but there would also be in a christian nation

01:36:22.560 there would be cultural pressure to be christian there would also be civil sanctions as well and

01:36:28.640 those would have to be mapped out and we'd have to be careful and yes there would be sabbath laws

01:36:31.980 and yes there would be blasphemy laws because again it's not whether but which right there's

01:36:37.900 always going to be blasphemy laws there are always going to be things that a society says you cannot

01:36:42.420 say and even and you might say well that's cultural pressure but not civil even at the civil level

01:36:48.180 there there are certain things because we're seeing that again what we're what we keep looking

01:36:53.040 at as our shining example that we're saying well not christian nationalism we want this instead

01:36:57.660 is we keep looking at the parasite the placeholder the temporary placeholder that is not a host it

01:37:03.800 is not viable it's not a real option namely secularism we're saying well that we have that

01:37:08.460 you know it's it's christian nationalism or this other thing that's really really great

01:37:11.980 um well that other thing that appears to be so great is only being propped up by chrysidom

01:37:18.440 when chrysidom fails if it does then then it's not secularism that will take its place 0.79

01:37:25.100 secularism is the parasite chrysidom is the host when the parasite kills the host it dies with the

01:37:31.340 host what replaces chrysidom will not be long-term secularism it will be the rise of the old gods it 0.93

01:37:38.360 will be paganism and paganism you bet your bottom dollar paganism has blasphemy laws

01:37:44.540 the problem is not whether but which which blasphemy laws will paganism have

01:37:50.500 everything that the that the lord jesus commands us to say will be deemed as blasphemy in in a

01:37:57.540 in a nation that is dominated by false religion um but all that being back to you know what i was

01:38:04.600 trying to say so these are some of the things i wanted to get to and there's more and i'm just

01:38:08.180 not going to do it but what i wanted to say in terms of perceiving doing my best to discern

01:38:12.760 intentions of the g3 folk i think what they want is individual conversion yes and amen i'm with

01:38:21.500 them on that and they want to see as many people saved as possible yes amen yes and amen and they

01:38:28.420 believe genuinely as i do that the blood of the martyrs is the seedbed of the church

01:38:34.440 but in addition to that where i would differ from them is that i believe the church grows

01:38:42.040 exponentially under persecution the blood of the martyrs is the seabed of the church

01:38:46.660 i also think that the church does pretty well under constantine as well and the church does

01:38:54.060 well under king alfred and the church does well underneath the covenanters and the puritans

01:39:00.560 and the founders see i think that christendom is a blessing to individual conversion i think

01:39:09.460 josh and scott think that chrysidom detracts from individual conversion i think the way that they

01:39:15.120 see it is that um that america had all these remnants of chrysidom and still has some but

01:39:21.260 they're eroding but used to have them in full swing and that what it produced with christian

01:39:27.640 not just christian individuals but christian culture society-wide christian culture was what

01:39:34.860 it produced was nominal christianity and out of nominal christianity came nominal churches

01:39:42.060 nominal pastors nominal doctrine nominal preaching nominal gospel proclamation

01:39:50.540 and ultimately nominal christians and carnal christians aka

01:39:57.080 mere professing christians that aren't actually regenerate and a bunch of people with a sense of

01:40:03.460 false assurance that ultimately went to hell. I really think that's it. I think that's Scott

01:40:10.360 and Josh's problem. I do. And so in that sense, if I'm right, I just want to say that I understand.

01:40:20.020 I disagree. I still disagree, but I understand and I am sympathetic and you guys are dear brothers.

01:40:26.080 And again, Josh, you're welcome to come on the show, but I think you're wrong.

01:40:30.700 but i do think that this does get to the eschatology i think part of the reason why

01:40:35.380 josh he's not just coming out you know swinging with you know christian nationalism but it's

01:40:39.120 chrysidom theonomy and post-millennialism if you look at some of these tweets with scott and josh

01:40:44.520 it's not just christian nationalism that's a big one but it's you know starts hitting at chrysidom

01:40:50.120 post-millennialism theonomy i think they recognize that i don't think you have to be post-mill to be

01:40:56.880 christian nationalist or to be about mere christian at least to say that this this is our

01:41:02.600 marching orders to baptize the nations you do have to be post-millennial to think it's going to work 1.00

01:41:07.160 but here's the thing josh is not post-millennial he's all millennial a lot of the g3 guys are 0.97

01:41:12.440 all millennial some of them are are more historic pre-millennial um gotta gotta tip the hat to

01:41:18.380 macarthur you know somehow um even though he's leaky dispensationalist pre-mill but if you're

01:41:23.220 you know, confessional in 1689, historic pre-mills, as close as you can get. But all that being said,

01:41:28.360 they're not, they're not a post-mill crew. And so because of that, they don't, they don't believe

01:41:36.100 that, as I do, I believe that in terms of not just Christianizing, but in terms of regenerate,

01:41:42.620 individual regenerate salvation, I believe that when the gospel age, this gospel age,

01:41:49.260 church age is finished and it culminates in the final physical return of christ to judge both the

01:41:55.020 quick and the dead i believe that in the final analysis there will be more people in heaven than

01:42:01.240 in hell more souls in heaven than in hell that is my belief narrow is the gate right difficult the

01:42:08.840 path i understand i would side with bb warfield other post-millennials and their exegesis which

01:42:14.840 i don't have time but on that particular parable in the same way that i wouldn't read you know the

01:42:18.780 ten virgins, five wise, five foolish.

01:42:20.660 Well, that means that, you know, 0.77

01:42:21.680 50% of human population will be in heaven

01:42:23.820 and 50% like that's not the way to read the parable.

01:42:26.660 The way is that to read that particular parable

01:42:29.420 is that there's only one way to the Father.

01:42:31.820 Christ is the way.

01:42:33.020 There aren't multiple paths,

01:42:34.340 but one narrow path, one person,

01:42:36.440 namely Jesus Christ, his person and his work.

01:42:39.540 And that it's a difficult path

01:42:41.440 because it requires the foregoing

01:42:43.880 of all these other things

01:42:46.320 that the world has to offer,

01:42:47.420 all these idols,

01:42:48.220 all these other false doctrines and false gods um and so it is narrow and it is and it is in that

01:42:54.780 sense difficult and there is a sense in which few ever find it but i don't believe that that portion

01:43:00.200 is literal in the sense that um there's a lot of christians my point is that there's a lot of

01:43:04.980 christians that at the end of the day if you press them they believe that the the final population

01:43:09.600 of hell will exponentially outweigh the final population of heaven they believe that less than

01:43:15.820 10% of humanity will be saved, right? And they want to put a number on it. And they'd say, well,

01:43:20.160 I'm not going to put a number on it. The Bible doesn't put a number on it, which is true. It 0.76

01:43:23.260 doesn't, but that is their general sentiment. Their general sentiment is that a small sliver

01:43:29.020 of humanity is going to be in heaven and that it'll still be a great multitude, you know,

01:43:34.640 in, you know, in, in the big scheme of things, because, but, but it's, it's going to be this

01:43:41.400 big multitude that that no one can count no you know like no one can number it's going to be

01:43:46.520 millions joel but they'll say yeah it's going to be a big crowd in heaven but if you press them

01:43:52.300 they'll say yeah it'll be millions in heaven but billions in hell and i think that's where we

01:43:58.000 differ um as a partial preterist post-millennialist in the vein of guys like kenneth gintry guys like

01:44:08.520 doug wilson guys like bb warfield um i believe that uh that heaven will be the lion's share

01:44:16.900 because i believe that um it's very likely that we are still in the early church

01:44:25.320 and that right now if we're saying right now do you think heaven outpopulates hell no

01:44:32.740 not by a long shot but that's the point that's my exegesis of scripture is that the tree starts

01:44:39.380 small and it gets massive world incumbency that the leaven starts just in one corner of the loaf

01:44:47.740 and it didn't even start in that corner of the loaf until we were already a few thousand years

01:44:52.220 into human history namely calvary but then it works through the whole batch of dough

01:44:58.400 it's a stone right the kingdoms of the world this statue it's much larger it's a stone cut by no

01:45:04.900 human hands but it crushes those kingdoms and grinds them into dust and eventually it grows

01:45:09.980 into a mountain that fills the whole earth i i believe that heaven will far out populate hell

01:45:15.280 not because we're currently sitting in that position where there's more people in heaven

01:45:20.520 than hell. I think it's quite to the contrary. Uh, but because I think that, uh, we still got

01:45:27.840 a long way to go and we're going to start seeing more and more people saved. And not only are we

01:45:33.580 going to start seeing higher percentage of humanity saved, but we're also going to see

01:45:37.960 people fruitful and multiplying as they have so far through human history. And I believe we'll

01:45:42.620 continue despite all the, all the Darwinian atheists saying that, you know, we're overpopulating the

01:45:49.980 planet i think that that's hogwash so i think we will have exponentially more people alive on the

01:45:54.500 planet so just more people period and a higher percentage above like a majority a majority

01:46:01.600 percentage above half progressively increasing saved and if that goes on with a large global

01:46:08.620 much exponentially larger population human population and a majority percentage of that

01:46:14.900 larger population being saved and that progressively only increases and it goes on for generations for

01:46:21.500 a long period of time then it's a simple math equation in the final analysis there'll be more

01:46:26.780 in heaven than hell but again my point is that tracks back to my eschatology if you're not

01:46:33.200 post-millennial so again my point is you don't have to be post-millennial to say christ is lord

01:46:38.740 of all. And that includes governments and law and legislation and culturalists. You can be all

01:46:45.120 millennial or historic pre-millennial and hold it. You can. And I know you can because I've got guys

01:46:52.480 who are in that boat and we've linked arms and they're good godly men. However, though,

01:46:57.740 you don't have to be post-millennial to be a Christian nationalist.

01:47:00.980 but for those who aren't post-millennial i can see why you wouldn't want to be a christian

01:47:10.320 nationalist because for you you believe that the way is narrow and that the interpretation of that

01:47:16.480 parable that is that literally only a sliver of the human population will get into heaven

01:47:21.660 still be a lot a lot of people over the whole course of human history but it will pale in

01:47:26.360 comparison to the population of hell um it's narrow it's difficult few ever find it and that

01:47:32.340 one of the things that makes the kingdom harder to find is nominal christianity and nominal

01:47:38.800 christianity uh comes from chrysidum when you have christian wide widespread of just

01:47:48.540 christian culture christian society and christian education and christian government

01:47:55.420 christendom um you see christendom as a breeding ground for nominal christianity nominal sermons

01:48:04.120 nominal churches nominal doctrine where a bunch of people are falsely assured

01:48:08.720 but aren't actually regenerate and you want to see people come to saving faith in jesus

01:48:14.740 and you see it as a determinant i think that's your incentive i think that's where you're coming

01:48:20.880 from if i'm wrong josh reach out email me or something and correct me if i'm right then let

01:48:27.020 me just say i understand i disagree i understand i'm sympathetic i'm grateful for your ministry

01:48:32.760 but we need you guys we need to iron this out and i hope that you can uh i hope that you can

01:48:40.300 hop on board really do hope this podcast has been helpful that's all i got for today hopefully i

01:48:46.660 it confused you guys more than when we started. I'll try to clarify things further with some

01:48:52.860 future podcasts, getting in a little bit more to the government in terms of legislating civil

01:48:58.680 magistrates of a nation, legislation with the first table of the law, those kinds of things,

01:49:03.820 parsing out sins versus crimes, maximum penalties with the civil code, general equity theonomy,

01:49:10.500 the civil laws, tracking back to the moral law, and then being wisely applied in our time,

01:49:18.860 in our place, recognizing differences in technology and culture. There's a lot to the

01:49:25.300 discussion. Sorry. The point is, it's not a simple conversation by any stretch of the imagination.

01:49:35.480 I think mere Christendom is the better big banner, but Christian nationalism has its place in there.

01:49:39.940 i understand what the label means there's different branches of christian nationalists

01:49:44.800 i'm different than stephen wolf i explained that at the beginning of the podcast

01:49:47.460 but christian nationalism is not what i would pick as my label

01:49:51.200 but i will wear it so you don't have to wear that label if you don't want to g3 guys

01:49:57.860 but christ is lord chrissidom christian nations that we're seeking to have not just christian

01:50:07.620 individuals but christian individuals with a faith theology that comes out of their fingertips

01:50:13.300 that affects everything and that's and that's why i said that comment impotent pietism i i believe

01:50:20.900 right goes back to the eschatology thing i believe that more people will be saved than not

01:50:25.180 and if more people are saved than not um and culture doesn't change then i have no way

01:50:34.460 of explaining that but an impotent faith an impotent pietism privatized lordship of jesus

01:50:42.740 he's he's lord of my precious heart but he's not lord of all whereas josh again in his defense

01:50:47.920 he'd be able to say no we're not impotent we're not pietist we're just vastly outnumbered

01:50:53.900 and that's the design because that's his eschatology

01:50:57.720 this is the conflict these are the things that we gotta iron out all right thanks for tuning in

01:51:04.220 and we hope to see you again soon.

01:51:06.480 Can I be frank with you for just a second

01:51:08.400 right here at the end?

01:51:10.060 Look, some of you guys,

01:51:11.320 you're financially supporting this ministry

01:51:13.160 and from the bottom of my heart,

01:51:15.080 I say thank you.

01:51:16.520 I cannot thank you enough.

01:51:19.080 However, some of you,

01:51:20.480 you just, you can't afford it.

01:51:22.820 In fact, some of you,

01:51:24.020 you shouldn't afford it.

01:51:25.900 Let's be honest.

01:51:27.220 I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's 0.97

01:51:29.060 ridiculous economy. 0.98

01:51:30.720 Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years 0.85

01:51:38.840 due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people

01:51:45.780 change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless.

01:51:52.680 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support

01:51:58.980 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.

01:52:05.860 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a

01:52:12.900 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.

01:52:19.620 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers. We need

01:52:26.380 to be strategic. You leave us a five-star review and our podcast shows up for more people. And the

01:52:33.020 word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of life gets out

01:52:40.840 there. Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - April 29, 2023

BONUS EPISODE - Christian Nationalism ｜ A Response To Josh Buice & G3 ｜ Live w Pastor Joel

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