00:05:06.200it's something that we've never done as a ministry before, but we're trying to make this
00:05:09.780special project and see how it goes. So I'm super excited about that. But yeah, aside from that,
00:05:17.040let's go ahead and get into today's topic. We're going to be talking about Israel. And I feel like
00:05:21.360I want to get into the theology because one thing that we want to cover is how should Christians,
00:05:27.660especially Christians on the other side of the world, right? We're not in the Middle East. There
00:05:31.740are Christians in the Middle East. God bless them. Our prayers are with them for protection,
00:05:35.020all these things. But as Christians in America, predominantly our listener base is in America,
00:05:40.160how should we view Israel? How does God view Israel? What does his word say about Israel?
00:05:45.180But before we get to that, that I think is vital. We've got to cover it. But I think we'd be remiss
00:05:50.740if we don't just right out of the gate deal with some of the current events going on. So Andrew,
00:05:56.620can you maybe just, I don't know, a synopsis, catch us up to speed over the weekend? I mean,
00:06:01.640these are historic things happening right now. The dispensationalists are getting excited.
00:06:05.920Yeah, they are. It was, I believe, the 50th anniversary on Saturday was the 50th anniversary
00:06:12.520of the Yom Kippur War. And, you know, apparently Hamas, you know, the terrorist organization
00:06:21.320in Palestine and Gaza, took the opportunity to launch a series of widespread attacks. I mean,
00:06:30.500I'm sure most people have already seen some of these things and some of the news already, but they – and it's hard because how do you know all the things that you're seeing on TV or online are legit?
00:06:42.400You never really fully can know is this real or not, but very, very brutal, barbaric attacks that they launched, killed women and children, entered into like bunkers and executed people,
00:06:58.340took all sorts of people, prisoners, especially women. Apparently there's something like 50 or 60
00:07:04.660female Israeli soldiers who were taken captive. And just extremely brutal stuff. There was
00:07:13.800apparently for some reason, a rave party for peace right on the border of Israel and Gaza
00:07:22.140that they assaulted. You can see the video of these guys coming in gliders, like a video game
00:07:27.700almost. And they took all these, they killed people and presumably did horrific things to
00:07:35.420the women. And all of it seems to be that they want to provoke a response from Israel, which
00:07:43.000they're assumedly going to get. Apparently the Israelis are going to send a thousand troops
00:07:49.860into the Gaza Strip and attack the place. And they've already launched airstrikes and things
00:07:55.120like that. And so it's, um, it seems to be pretty consequential. It seems like it's, it's a large,
00:08:02.040large event that it isn't just, you know, the random kind of terror attacks that, that periodically
00:08:06.680happen, uh, in that area. It seems much, much bigger than that. Um, and, and the backstory of
00:08:12.980it too, is that, um, especially during the Trump administration, there were, um, major peace,
00:08:20.240uh, accords that were reached between, um, Israel and all of these, you know, Gulf states,
00:08:27.420Saudi Arabia, Qatar, uh, UAE. And, um, these were, these were a pretty big deal. And, um,
00:08:35.380a lot of it is they, they want to achieve a certain rapprochement with, with, um, with these0.51
00:08:43.000Gulf states, because then they're a buffer against Iran that they're, those are basically the two
00:08:47.160Poles in the Middle East or the Saudis on the one hand and the Iranians on the other. And if0.73
00:08:53.540they're in good with Israel and of course the United States, then they achieve a certain level0.91
00:09:01.440of security against Iran. And so what these attacks seem to be, if there's any deeper underlying
00:09:08.460reason for them, it's to destroy that peace. You already see statements from the Saudis and Qatar
00:09:15.900um and i believe egypt that have condemned israel in the midst of being attacked it seems it seems
00:09:22.020bizarre it's like well they basically are like ah you deserved it and and so it seems to be that
00:09:29.000they're achieving the goal especially if they they go in and force and just level gaza that the all0.63
00:09:35.040of these arabs arab states that they were on very good terms with they're not going to be anymore0.53
00:09:40.820And so there's deeper geopolitical stuff in all of this that is behind the scenes.0.99
00:09:49.520And it's uncertain that in the past, they've been able to go into Gaza and lay waste to this place fairly easily.
00:09:57.500You have a modern military going up against people that are not very well armed.
00:10:01.680Sometimes they just have rocks, right?
00:10:03.220But if there are, you know, loads of weapons that have been funneled into Gaza because, you know, American weapons have been, you know, just left lying around, you know, in Afghanistan and in Ukraine, then it might be a much more difficult task for the Israelis to go in like they have in the past.0.52
00:10:28.320So, right. So, so going forward, yeah, it's going to be going to be pretty dicey. Yeah.
00:10:34.660Thank you. That's super helpful. So with all that being said for the listener, you know,
00:10:37.840my understanding, right. I feel like I'm going to be helpful in this conversation in a Michael
00:10:42.400Scott sort of way. Right. So like, explain it to me like I'm five, you know, like what is a surplus?
00:10:47.700You know, but from my understanding, you know, and, and doing some research and trying to
00:10:51.700understand what's going on. One of the things that this is not like some full militia,
00:10:56.560this was guerrilla warfare they were going this was civilians uh in terms of the israelis they
00:11:02.500were going into individual uh civilians homes and and just as far as what we can tell and just
00:11:08.780shooting like a elderly couple in their bed as they're sleeping you know yeah things like that
00:11:14.000or yeah and so terrible terrible things uh that that have been taking place um absolutely we
00:11:20.260believe that uh that israel has a right and responsibility to their citizens to uh defend
00:11:25.980physical life. And so you and I, we have certain views on this topic theologically.
00:11:33.180But here's the deal that I think I just want to say as a disclaimer right out the gate.
00:11:39.060Israel, you know, 75 years ago, whether or not there should have been the nation state of Israel
00:11:45.200established 75 years ago in the Middle East and all these, putting that question aside for a
00:11:55.960And so you have people, whether these people are synonymous with biblical Jews of the Old
00:12:02.280Testament, which you and I, we'd have some serious pushback on that, and we'll get to
00:12:12.320They have an innate value and dignity.
00:12:15.900Life is worthy of defense, and it is a nation.
00:12:20.480It is a sovereign nation state that does exist in God's providence.
00:12:24.240He allowed it to take place, and these are image-bearing people, and from what we can tell, being brutally slaughtered.
00:12:31.160And the only reason we offer any of those descriptives of apparently or allegedly, it's not to say this isn't happening.
00:12:37.500We're not labeling this propaganda, but we are just acknowledging that we—I mean, right now, so much of the regime is this war machine.
00:12:46.680And it's just foolish for us to get fooled 15 minutes ago and then fall for the same thing.
00:12:53.060So we want to have compassion and we don't want to be just conspiracist for the heck of it.
00:13:01.320But we also do want to have a holy suspicion and recognizing that some of the stuff that came out with Ukraine and Russia in the final analysis was just absolute propaganda, right?
00:13:10.620Like the ghost of Kiev, you know, or whatever.
00:13:13.240Like there were certain things it's like, oh, well, that actually did not happen.
00:13:17.420So we're not saying nothing happened, but we're just saying we want to be careful.
00:13:22.280I'm reminded, you know, of the Summer of Love 2020, you know, the Kenosha riots.
00:13:26.980And there's all, you know, there's so many things.
00:13:28.880And even before that, like, hands up, don't shoot is a myth.
00:20:14.700I mean, it's similar with like the Ukraine war where there's, there's video that, that comes out where we can see things that are happening that we wouldn't have even 10 years ago.
00:20:24.040So it's the realities of, and the brutality of, of this warfare is, is much more visceral now.
00:20:30.560But if it doesn't – if the Israelis go in and it's not easy for them and the Palestinians have much more – far greater access to high-tech weaponry and they're able to fight and hold the Israelis off and it is this brutal slugfest, then you could see conflict widening and opening up.
00:20:52.700And perhaps Gulf states now entering a conflict and becoming something like the Six Days War, where now they're fighting actual nation states on top of the Palestinians that are nearby.
00:21:04.440And the wider it gets and the more embroiled it gets, the higher likelihood the United States becomes involved in some – we're already involved in one sense, but in a much more dynamic way.
00:21:16.580um so we we know that you know at least from 20 years ago and just our involvement in the
00:21:23.540middle east or or even you know money or accounts that we've unfroze even recently with iran and
00:21:30.200things like that that's um we know that there's in that sense there has been financial support
00:21:34.960and there has been equipment and things like that that's been you know sold on the black market and
00:21:38.920these are things that we know have happened at least um in past years is is you know is as long
00:21:44.580as 20 years ago and as recent as much more recent, just a few years ago. Do we have any
00:21:52.280definitive knowledge at this point in regards to more recent things like our complete abandonment
00:21:59.760and the pathetic withdrawal in Afghanistan? And of course, our funding of Ukraine, where there's
00:22:06.640no accountability. It's not like these things are accounted for. So Zelensky says, I need another
00:22:12.900billion you know and then we say absolutely let's make it three you know and then um you know and
00:22:18.280then and then he he buys a bunch of stuff you know and when i say stuff i mean like like bombs that
00:22:23.560go boom and it and easily could say okay we needed you know we bought 100 bombs because the u.s just
00:22:30.460gave us a blank check and we needed 70 and we're going to sell 30 and who buys those who so my
00:22:35.720question is we know that the decisions of our involvement the west involvement in the past
00:22:42.580have have have played out poorly and and simply arming um militia in the middle east uh for
00:22:49.960towards nefarious ends have some of our recent decisions namely i'm thinking afghanistan ukraine
00:22:55.660do we have any definitive proof at this point that that hamas may actually have some of those
00:23:01.940weapons and equipment i mean there's there's been all sorts of speculation along the those lines i
00:23:07.240mean there isn't i mean apparently this morning there was something that the russians put out that
00:23:11.440that, that claimed that the Ukrainians have sold weapons. And of course the other side says the
00:23:16.980same thing that the Russians are selling Ukrainian weapons. So it's, it's hard to know, you know,
00:23:21.720one way or the other, like, like you said earlier, all of the, you know, so much of this stuff is,
00:23:26.600it's so nebulous and foggy. It's, it's hard to know the truth in, in real time as things unfold,
00:23:33.680you don't really know until we have much further down the road. But at least stands to reason that,
00:23:39.780yeah, you leave billions of dollars worth of weaponry in Afghanistan and the Taliban has it
00:23:45.580and they can do whatever they want with it. They can sell it to whoever they want to the highest
00:23:49.860bidder. And the same thing with Ukraine where there are hundreds of billions of dollars worth
00:23:56.580of weapons, very high tech weapons. And people are like, well, they're going to use all of them
00:24:01.200against the Russians. And it's like, I don't think you quite appreciate just how corrupt
00:24:07.560Eastern Europe is, and in particular Ukraine, where it's like, yeah, maybe they'll use nine0.91
00:24:13.620out of every 10, but that 10th one, some general or some apparatchik in the Zelensky regime
00:24:19.160is skimming off the top and can make a lot of money. And so that's how things operate over
00:24:25.540there and in Russia too. And so, yeah, all of these weapons can easily get funneled who knows
00:24:32.640where. And that's been the criticism of American operations in Ukraine for the last two years.
00:24:37.560is, uh, we're handing out all these weapons. How it's not like every time you shoot a Russian tank,
00:24:43.620you know, there's a receipt that goes back to the Pentagon and says, all right, we use this
00:24:47.620against the Russians. Here's the proof. Right. So you have no way of knowing, right? That's,
00:24:52.560that's the, it's the big question mark is all of these weapons are out there and they're just
00:24:56.980unleashed and they're unleashed on a people who are incredibly corrupt and like to skim off the
00:25:02.980top. And so, and this is, I mean, this, this has been part of, you know, warfare for millennia is
00:25:09.020people steal from the supplies, right? That's what, that's what they do. And so, so I think
00:25:15.540it would be foolish to, to think that that isn't happening at all. Absolutely. That they're very
00:25:20.720disciplined to know that of course not. And so is it possible that they end up with, with Hamas0.77
00:25:25.940in Palestine? You know, certainly it is. Cause I mean, look, look at all, like all the weapons0.97
00:25:31.220that they've used heretofore, you know, rockets and so forth, it's supposed to be this totally
00:25:35.760sealed off place where they can't get anything in. And they've got thousands of rockets that
00:25:40.200get imported in there somehow. So why wouldn't, um, you know, man pads, these anti-tank missiles
00:25:46.540and things like that. There was a, there was a video and it's hard to say again, like,
00:25:49.660how do you know if these videos are legit or real, or if they're from a video game even, right.
00:25:54.520Um, but there was this video of, of Palestinians shooting down an Israeli helicopter, uh, using,
00:25:59.420anti-aircraft missiles. And it's like, well, where did they get those? The Taliban, Ukraine,0.72
00:26:03.680who knows, right? But if they are armed with some high-tech weaponry, and even just with drones,0.92
00:26:11.840I mean, Iran makes all of the, or not all of, but many of the drones that the Russians use.0.56
00:26:16.480And so does Hezbollah have those? Do they smuggle them into Gaza to be able to use against Israeli
00:26:24.180tanks. It's hard to say what's going to happen. I mean, here we are sitting two days afterward
00:26:31.720when they're about to launch this massive operation. And so we don't know. It could be
00:26:37.900over before it starts, or it could go on for a long time. It's hard to say. And at a minimum,
00:26:47.000um, um, what, what seems most likely is that the United States, um, you know, the regime that
00:26:53.960rules over us, um, wants to be involved in, in this conflict to, to, to some degree, you know,
00:27:01.040it's hard to say exactly what, um, and with an election coming up, um, they want, you know,
00:27:08.080obviously want to use whatever they can to maintain their hold on power. And so the easiest
00:27:15.140way to do that is with war uh that's that's just known everyone knows that if you if you want to
00:27:19.940hold power you know if you go if you send your nation to war then then it's easy to consolidate
00:27:24.820domestically yeah let's so let's talk about that for a moment because you know like so the other
00:27:30.780day i was at costco with my family right and um and i noticed you know there was a massive increase
00:27:37.200even here in texas of uh some some mask wearing and i was thinking you know i'm going to get a
00:27:42.600jumpstart in october right so i'm being i'm being really fiscally wise here i'm going to get a
00:27:47.240jumpstart on uh decorations for christmas but i realized that everybody else was already decorating
00:27:52.280for election season you know like here i am way behind you know so um but um but so so yeah sure
00:28:00.160we'll roll out you know like we'll that that one trick pony of covid you know uh right on schedule
00:28:04.760but a lot of people won't fall for that now sadly a lot of people will they'll be like hey you
00:28:09.280tricked me. And then somebody will do the same trick and be like, oh, okay. And so sadly, a lot
00:28:13.680of people really are that foolish. A lot of Christians even are really that foolish. But1.00
00:28:19.320by God's grace, I'd like to think that not as many would fall for it. And so you're going to
00:28:23.900need something more than that to draw election day out to election month to election season and
00:28:29.020harvesting ballots and the whole nine yards. And so that something could be, well, okay,
00:28:33.540we can replay COVID. But in addition, we could also sprinkle in a little bit of
00:28:38.920World War III. That might do the trick. Now, with that being said, you and I were talking0.86
00:28:45.700offline and it was really helpful because I was wondering, but how does war help the current
00:28:51.820administration stay in power? I can see how COVID can say, well, you can't, you're going to have to
00:28:58.140vote remotely, mail-in ballots and all this kind of stuff. But how does war on the other side of
00:29:03.680the planet mind you specifically how does that help rig potentially we're not saying this is
00:29:09.720gonna but potentially rig an election and you you answered that question for me and i found it really
00:29:14.160helpful and again this is speculation but yeah yeah and who knows we could again we could we1.00
00:29:19.580could you know you play this video back you know a year from now and oh sure look at these idiots0.99
00:29:24.340they thought this was gonna happen right well but it won't be it won't be that bad i'd like to think0.97
00:29:28.060it'll be better than y2k but but uh yeah but it won't be that bad because let the let the listener
00:29:34.560understand i use the words we are speculating we're naming it we're not these are not prophecies
00:29:39.720we're not saying this will happen this is we're simply saying this is something that could happen
00:29:44.480and discerning christians should be simply aware yeah that's what i'm saying yeah so we're not
00:29:49.480making any any prophecies yeah yeah we're not saying this is definitely gonna happen uh which
00:29:54.420some christians do they they literally like and this is this is going to this is what i predicted
00:29:58.86014 years ago like and at that point a verse from the minor prophets to try to justify it right so
00:30:06.020we're not doing that we're just saying it's possible yeah yeah and so i i think you know
00:30:10.660so say say the situation boils over and that the calls to attack iran um um begin to be
00:30:21.080gain widespread acceptance, right? So one of the things is that it's clear, I think incontrovertible
00:30:32.200that the Iranians, they're aligned with Hezbollah and Gaza, that they support to one degree or
00:30:39.600another these operations. And the segment of neocons in the GOP want that, they've wanted
00:30:49.160that war to happen um since george w bush was president right since he gives his speech at the
00:30:54.480state of the union and says iraq iran north korea right well excuse me the um they've wanted iran
00:31:02.400forever you know you have the picture of benjamin netanyahu with the like clip art version of a of a
00:31:07.960bomb at the un and saying they're gonna get it any any minute now and that's like 20 years ago
00:31:13.120they still haven't gotten it. But they've wanted to attack them for decades. And this could be
00:31:21.780the thing where they finally get to do that. And whatever degree the US wants to be involved in
00:31:29.860that, they're going to be involved in it to one degree or another, almost certainly. And so if
00:31:35.860there's an attack, if it's just aerial bombardment, right, there's no invasion, it's just bombing0.65
00:31:40.580Iran. It's still, um, puts the United States on this war footing. And there would like right now,
00:31:47.080um, the U S military, I mean, for, for year after year has fallen behind its recruiting goals by
00:31:54.160like 20 or 25%. And the number of, of active duty infantry men, like the actual guys with guns that
00:32:01.540will go fight is, is like, you know, a hundred thousand, right. Maybe, maybe more depending on
00:32:07.840how you calculate it uh but but not not anywhere near the strength of the u.s army really at any
00:32:13.980point um and so in order to fight a massive conflict right if there's going to be one and
00:32:20.680also you have to keep in mind like the ukraine war still going on they're running out of men
00:32:24.920and and are they going to try to put put american troops in there or nato troops in there um uh do
00:32:30.480what do the chinese do they want taiwan and they would maybe sense american weakness or
00:32:36.120overextension in other parts of the world. And then do you have to defend that place too? And
00:32:40.240there was a paper that came out, I think it was last week or two weeks ago from the Army War
00:32:44.640College about both Ukraine and Taiwan saying that if the United States had to defend Taiwan
00:32:53.860militarily, they would lose 3,600 men a day. And the current force status is such that they don't
00:33:00.560have enough people, enough men to sustain losses like that. And so you would have, their conclusion
00:33:06.660is you would have to have conscription. You'd have to have a draft. And so like you add a draft
00:33:10.820to our entire, you know, political chaos that we currently have. And then what, what also happens
00:33:17.080at wartime, like we haven't undergone anything like this in our lifetimes, but what happens is
00:33:24.000there are massive restrictions on the populace, right? So, you know, during World War II,
00:33:29.320There's rationing. I mean, there could be, I mean, just when you, like you mentioned, going to Costco, right? You just look at the prices, right? If there's, if you're having to pay for a war on the other side of the planet that, and, and massive military buildup to bring it about, right? There's going to be even more inflation. And so all of these things will be thrown into chaos. They're, they're, you know, maybe we'd be popular unrest over a draft, things like that. Like you could see how the road that this could go down if it unravels like this.
00:33:57.360um and so in order to you know maintain control maintain power they they do things just as
00:34:02.620restrictive as lockdowns and maybe they would even do lockdowns like well we're at war we did
00:34:06.860we did everyone to stay home right that is and and you could see people they wouldn't get fooled by
00:34:12.020by covid but they could be like oh we are at war and we have enemies and we better we better just
00:34:17.400stay inside our house or or whatever they would do maybe whatever you know restriction of civil
00:34:22.480liberties that they would bring about, uh, it's certainly conceivable, right. That, that things
00:34:27.340like this would happen over the next year. So that's, that's the thing. And, and on top of it
00:34:32.580is you have, you know, the American, like the, the left side of the aisle of the body politic0.60
00:34:39.300in America, uh, other than the very far left, um, is just bloodthirsty for any war that the regime
00:34:45.680puts on the table. They'll be like, yep, go kill them. They're bad. Um, and so they're,0.99
00:34:50.600they're on board with whatever but on the right side especially like the the trump voter the mega
00:34:55.660voter their their their instincts are very much to be anti-war they want america to be out of
00:35:00.600these foreign entanglements but at the same time if you bring in israel they all believe
00:35:07.740they're all influenced by various strains of dispensationalism and they think well this these
00:35:12.460are god's chosen holy people and we we have a duty as christians to defend them that's right
00:35:17.020Your average Trump voter is a big fan of Schofield.
00:35:56.920And they don't know any better. But when they... You're right. Their overall instinct is,
00:36:02.200let's actually put America first. That is a Trumpian kind of... So America first, except
00:36:08.740the one exception would be, but what about God's chosen people? And so that's what we need to get0.95
00:36:14.220to now. So I think we're ready. That's a perfect segue to go into the theology of dispensationalism
00:36:19.860and talk about eschatology and talk about Israel and those kinds of things in the spiritual sense,
00:36:25.200covenantal sense, ethnic sense, all those things. But before we do, real quick, let's hear from our
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00:38:21.560All right, so let's talk about it, Pastor Andrew. I think we're ready. Romans 11,
00:38:26.260and dispensationalism the whole nine yard is you know israel god's chosen people
00:38:32.060what how should christians think about israel today yeah um so i guess where do we where do
00:38:40.560we want to begin with that you know i had a uh a tweet uh i had a tweet the other day that was
00:38:45.300you know i guess controversial it wasn't controversial to me uh but i i just i flat
00:38:50.520said that this nation that exists, the people that call those Jews today, the nation of Israel
00:38:59.780and so forth, that Christians should understand that these are not the same people that the
00:39:05.840Old Testament calls Jews because those people, the Jews in the Old Testament, they were in
00:39:15.820a covenant with God in the old covenant. And that old covenant no longer exists. It doesn't exist,
00:39:23.860at least in the same way. It's, it's superseded by the new covenant and the, you know, the apostle
00:39:28.800Paul extremely clear in both Romans and the book of Galatians that all those, all the promises to
00:39:36.620Abraham belong to those of the faith of Abraham only, only to those who believe that that those
00:39:43.340promises no longer apply to these people and i think you know at least most reformed christians
00:39:48.240they they get that right they understand okay yep those promises those belong to christians
00:39:53.040right both jew and gentile in in the old old covenant paradigm um those belong to those of
00:40:00.200the faith of abraham those who believe in that the physical problem like the physical promises
00:40:06.600were for abraham's physical seed his his actual uh blood descendants but there are spiritual
00:40:12.180promises that are not for children according to the flesh, but children according to the promise,
00:40:16.580those according to the Spirit. And you're right, your typical Reformed, within the Reformed
00:40:20.260tradition, your typical Reformed evangelical Christian is going to be supersessionism,
00:40:26.780the fulfillment theology. They're going to say the church is the fulfillment, is the final,
00:40:32.000truest spiritual fulfillment of Israel. And so they're going to say, no, there's no more land
00:40:36.780promises. God fulfilled that. And it's interesting, we just finished the book of Joshua, and it's so
00:40:42.400interesting. We got to Joshua chapter 23 and it says, and everything that I spoke through my
00:40:46.640servant Moses came to pass, that you inhabited all of the land, all these promises are fulfilled.
00:40:53.040And then there are some new promises for the rebuilding of the temple, but then those things
00:40:56.440come to pass with Nehemiah and with Ezra. And so these things have come to pass. But for the average
00:41:02.420the average reformed christian my understanding um is is that we believe that there's not a
00:41:08.240current promise these were promises and it's not that god changed his mind he behold i in the lord
00:41:13.440i changeth not uh these are promises it's not that god changes mind but but god actually fulfilled
00:41:18.480these promises they've been fulfilled he brought them uh to pass and and and so god fulfilled his
00:41:24.120end of of the covenant uh with these land promises and so those are not continuing they're in our
00:41:29.500past, not in our future. So those aren't continuing today. That's that preterist hermeneutic. Preterist
00:41:36.780just means past. And so these prophecies in the Old Testament were in the future of the immediate
00:41:42.620audience, the Jews that were being written to, but they're not in our future. They're in our past1.00
00:41:47.980with the land promises. But then when we get to like Romans chapter 11, even within the post
00:41:53.120millennial, so I'm thinking of like David Chilton and some of these guys, the average post-millennial
00:41:56.900reformed covenant theology rather than dispensationalism would say, okay, the land
00:42:03.360promises are done. And again, that doesn't mean that Israel can't be there and they have to,
00:42:07.520you know, like what's done is done. They're there. They're there. But it does mean that there's not
00:42:13.060a divine land right in 2023. So we're going to talk about Israel as a nation state the same way
00:42:18.980we would about Brazil or any other nation. But most, again, reformed post-millennial guys would0.59
00:42:24.940say, okay, that's in terms of the physical promises, but there are still these spiritual
00:42:29.440promises, and not just for spiritual Israel, all of Abraham's descendants by faith, those who trust
00:42:36.280Christ, Christians, but there's actually spiritual promises still for ethnic Israel, according to
00:42:42.580Romans 11. And that would be David Chilton, that would be guys that we love, like Doug Wilson,
00:42:47.680right? He would hold to that? Yeah, a lot of Reformed people hold to that,
00:42:52.080um, to the, to the view that there still is this eschatological purpose for the descendants of
00:42:58.840Abraham, right. On into the future. Um, and you know, my, my view is different than that. There's,
00:43:06.420there's, there are other views, um, uh, of Romans 11. And, um, one, you know, one of the,
00:43:12.680the main things to keep in mind is that Paul is, is writing Romans. He's writing it while the old
00:43:19.660covenant and the new covenant are overlapping. So the old covenant is still, during the time
00:43:27.000of the apostles, it's still in operation, right? There still is a temple. They're still doing
00:43:30.900sacrifices. And this is the main point of the book of Hebrews is like the Judaizers are attacking0.99
00:43:37.520the church, saying you need to go back to the old covenant in order to really be saved. And
00:43:42.120the book of Hebrews is saying, no, do not go back. That place is going to get destroyed and there's
00:43:49.040not going to be any sacrifice for sins left. Do not abandon Jesus and go back there. That's the
00:43:55.540entire point. And so you read the book of Hebrews now, it's not relevant in the same way that it
00:44:01.920was relevant to the original audience of the book of Hebrews, because there is no temple. There is
00:44:06.580no Israel to return to. There is no old covenant to return to. There's no threat in the same way.0.60
00:44:13.840Now we can apply it in, in, to our situation and so forth. And that's, you know, good preachers do that. But it's not, it's not the exact same anymore. And, and so if you read Romans in the same vein, right, Paul is, is concerned about his kinsmen according to the flesh, all of these, all of these people in the old covenant that don't understand that their entire purpose for existence, right?
00:44:40.500I mean, just thinking about it, um, biblically over, over the whole course of the Bible,
00:44:44.480like, why does Israel exist? Why, why do the Jews exist? Why, why does this old covenant exist?
00:44:50.040It's to bring about the seed, right? To bring about the promised seed from all the way back
00:44:55.620in Genesis chapter three, that is their raison d'etre. That's their reason for being. And he
00:45:01.520came he's here right it's jesus right and so um at that point right jesus comes and he's the true
00:45:10.720israel he's the true israelite and so now um both jew and gentile need to be incorporated into him
00:45:17.220to receive these promises and and in 70 ad right that the old covenant comes to a complete close
00:45:24.500it's done the temple's destroyed it's never going to be rebuilt sorry dispensationalists that are
00:45:29.520pining for a third temple. It's not going to happen. And it it's destroyed. The old covenant
00:45:35.640is not coming back. There's nothing to go back to. There are those, those promises are done,
00:45:40.560right? These it's, it's over. And so you read Romans 11 with that in mind, right? That the
00:45:47.460old Testament or the old covenant is about to come to its close. And Paul is saying right before it
00:45:53.300does, there is, there is going to be all Israel is going to be saved, right? All of the, all of
00:45:59.320the Israelites, this faithful remnant that God has reserved, they're going to be brought in before
00:46:04.440the end comes, right? That's what Paul is talking about. And many reformed people that have the
00:46:08.120other view, they're thinking way off thousands of years into the future. But the preterist view
00:46:14.340of Romans 11 is that, no, that also already happened, that thousands of Jews were converted
00:46:19.580before Jerusalem fell. So let me stop you. So that's super helpful, but let me stop you and
00:46:25.600just ask you know clarifying questions along the way so one yep uh when do you think the book of
00:46:30.420romans was written um you probably there's it's hard to say i'm thinking 55 um my way off 50 i
00:46:39.140mean they're they're different views uh between 55 and 62 ad okay yeah and then and then would
00:46:45.100you be among those i i think this is my position i'm still studying some on it but i lean towards
00:46:49.900right now i believe i definitely think hebrews was pre-8070 i think revelation was pre-8070 not
00:46:56.260by much i think that one was right on the heels you know by maybe a year or two um but i i think
00:47:01.780at this point i i've pretty much settled that i i believe that every single new testament book of
00:47:05.740the bible was pre-8070 yeah yeah i would i would agree okay and so uh romans because that's what
00:47:11.980we're discussing right now romans 9 through 11 particularly 11 we think that that one was not
00:47:16.180like a 80-69 kind of situation, but more of like a, this is, you know, we've got a good 10-15 years
00:47:22.140to go. Yeah, something like that, yeah. Okay, and then with that, I'm thinking of, you know,
00:47:26.960the Apostle Paul, you know, one of the things he says in Romans 11, and elsewhere also, he mentions
00:47:31.440that part of, you know, he says, I'll no longer go to the Jews, and again, he's speaking in this
00:47:35.880context of ethnic Jews, according to the flesh, I'm no longer going to go to them, I love them,0.99
00:47:40.080I'd be willing to go to hell, cut off, for the sake of my kinsmen, you know, and so he loves them,1.00
00:47:44.860but he's, I'm not going to go to them anymore because they're not listening. They've rejected0.78
00:47:48.960Christ and they're rejecting me. And so he's this apostle appointed to the Gentiles, but part of his0.95
00:47:54.300hope and aim is that he loves the Gentiles and wants to see their own eternal heavenly good come
00:47:59.780about through his gospel preaching ministry, but also as a happy bonus that as he ministers among0.65
00:48:05.240the Gentiles, that the Jews might be provoked to a godly sense of jealousy, that they would see
00:48:10.260their God actually blessing, you know, like I think of like Hosea, you know, like those who
00:48:18.120are not my people will be called my people, you know? And so they would see this and say,
00:48:21.980wait a second, that was ours. What have we done? You know, and that I, you know, I was thinking
00:48:27.220about this the other day, it almost seems as though in 80s, so then Paul does it, he shifts0.93
00:48:31.080gears and you see even in the book of Acts, the epicenter shifts from Peter and the Jewish
00:48:35.720apostles, in the center being Jerusalem, and then about Acts 15, literally like clockwork,
00:48:41.080halfway through, it shifts from Peter in Jerusalem to Paul in Antioch, and it shifts to primarily
00:48:46.260ministry among Gentiles, and then we've got Paul with a good, just from his writing of Romans,
00:48:52.200and not all the ministry he's already done before that among the Gentiles, so a good couple of
00:48:56.180decades, two, three decades, ministering among the Gentiles, again, in this interim period,
00:49:01.140right so you the inauguration of the new covenant that's uh would you date that at
00:49:05.200pentecost or the resurrection uh yes um perfect great both so so you know so so there we have
00:49:13.080amen so there we have the beginning of the new covenant and then and then we have the rolling
00:49:17.340up like a garment the completion like at that point the old covenant is um in every theological
00:49:22.860sense done but there is still that's you know there is still this overhang um and and so and
00:49:29.400And so then, you know, but then God in his providence, he sees fit that there's a finality
00:49:34.400of completion to the old covenant in 87.
00:49:37.980So you have a 40 year, give or take, interim period.
00:49:41.120And during that time, that's when Paul's writing about halfway in between there, maybe on the0.97
00:49:45.940latter second half, but halfway in between this 40 year long, a whole generation in Jewish0.80
00:49:50.780terms of where Paul is saying, okay, forget the Jews.1.00
00:49:55.200I love them, but they won't listen.1.00
00:50:25.680Because Jesus said, this generation won't pass away.
00:50:27.880in a literal sense, not just this type of generation, but these people, some of you will
00:50:32.860die, but there will be many of you still living where you see me come on the clouds. And that's
00:50:37.260not cherubim, baby angels playing harps, but like clouds being judgment language. Think Joel chapter
00:50:43.460two, billows of smoke. And so boom, you've got Titus, the sacking of the temple, not one stone,
00:50:50.060the greatest prophecy arguably ever made by Christ himself, not one stone. And I think of this,
00:50:56.280Tell me if you think I'm off here, but I think of the Roman soldier who, after Jesus died, he's going, he's breaking the legs of the criminals on either side of Jesus, and he comes to the Christ, and instead of breaking his legs, he realizes he's already dead, and he pierces his side with a spear and outflow the stream of water and blood, and he says, surely, this was the Son of God.
00:51:17.340And I'm just imagining Jews, and again, speaking ethnically, ethnic Jews in 80, 70, Christ spiritually coming.
00:51:24.340He's seated in his glorified body at the right hand of the Father, ascended, but a spiritual parousia, a coming of Christ on the clouds.
00:51:32.940Josephus even said dozens of eyewitnesses that saw like silhouettes, like chariots of fire in the clouds and smoke from all the rubble.
00:51:40.540Jewish people actually bearing eyewitness to seeing this event.0.83
00:51:43.960And I'm thinking, like, this Roman guy pierces Jesus' side and says, oh, man, we done messed up, A.A. Ron.0.75
00:52:46.660for the Romans to make their way down and devastate the place.
00:52:49.940And so as this is unfolding and developing and the apostles are still
00:52:54.660ministering and preaching, or at least the, the, the churches,
00:52:57.720many of them are dead at this point. And the spirit is at work in these
00:53:03.020churches and among the Gentiles and they're seeing it.
00:53:05.680And then the back of their heads, they have to think, Oh, this,
00:53:09.260this prophet jesus said this was going to happen exactly and we need to repent you know like and
00:53:16.500so i i think that's that's that's how it it sets up right in throughout the whole new testament you
00:53:21.340see this and it's it's one of those things where you have like the theological liberals that where
00:53:27.800they look at the parousia passages in the new testament and the the imminence language and it's0.99
00:53:34.220like well these dumb uh stupid people they thought jesus was going to come back and he didn't0.99
00:53:39.420and therefore that's what atheists say everything yeah exactly that's what christopher hitchens1.00
00:53:44.160literally said with doug wilson right yeah with the debate and and he was he wasn't prepared for
00:53:49.020it because doug is actually post-millennial it's like actually there's a really simple answer to
00:53:53.240that it did come back yeah he did come back uh he did come he's taken it back and he has no idea
00:53:57.980what to say at that point and really as post-millennials i think the best position is we
00:54:01.500need to understand comings plural perusias that like that uh every time someone's converted it
00:54:07.060is christ coming yeah it is christ coming that the ministry of the uh the ministry of the holy
00:54:12.280spirit indwelling the person the believer now um because of the indwelling ministry of the holy
00:54:17.320spirit who lives to exude the spirit of the risen christ christ is still in the glorified sense he
00:54:22.120is seated at the right hand of god the father almighty but the spirit of the risen christ
00:54:26.920through the ministry, indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit, comes to the person. So we can
00:54:31.620theologically accurately say, Jesus is in my heart. That's a true statement. And so every time,
00:54:38.080my point is, that's just one example of just in conversion alone, salvation. Every time someone's
00:54:41.920born again, Jesus comes. It's a parousia. It is the coming. So we have Jesus coming in the incarnation.1.00
00:54:47.860We have Jesus, his comings in salvation, in conversion. We had his coming in AD 70. And
00:54:55.700We're not hyper-preterist. We believe he will come again in the physical glorified flesh for the final culmination of all human history, the resurrection of the dead, both the wicked and the righteous, and that's still in our future.
00:55:10.620But that's pretty much all that's in our future. There's a lot that's in our past.
00:55:15.140Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 100% agree. And some of it too is I think people, they don't recognize the coming of the Lord in wrath. And you see this all throughout the Old Testament when God comes in judgment, right? The day of the Lord comes to Jerusalem in 586 BC, right? And that's presented by the prophets as the coming of the Lord.
00:55:39.000And so it isn't like, oh, you're using this slippery metaphorical language to try to shoehorn this in.
00:55:47.560It's like, no, this is biblical language.
00:55:49.080This is how God has spoken about his coming is he came, but it was Nebuchadnezzar that he sent, just as Jesus sent Titus to come and destroy Jerusalem.
00:56:03.080There are individual comings in conversion, but you're saying there are also corporate comings, but still geographically centered.
00:56:11.000Like in a sense, I'm thinking even the three men that appeared to Abraham and one of them, the angel of the Lord, coming in regards to the judgment of Sodom.
00:56:19.440So there's a coming that is, we would say that's a theophany, that's Christ, like the fourth man in the furnace with Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego.
00:56:29.240So Christ has come many, many times, but when we look at the end of Revelation, we would
00:56:36.880say this coming, it's in the flesh, and it's also global.
01:02:52.060And he says, repent and be baptized, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that's just poured out on Peter.
01:02:59.300And then Luke says that he said a whole bunch of other stuff that we're not told.
01:03:04.580But the thing that Luke records is escape this perverse generation.
01:03:09.200He picks up the exact same language as Jesus used repeatedly in the Gospels, saying that there's something unique about that particular generation, that they were extremely wicked, that – I mean, Jesus would talk about this, and he says the men from Sodom, right, the worst place in the Bible, they'll rise up in – yeah, they would have repented, and they will rise up at the resurrection.0.65
01:03:30.960No, Nineveh. The men of Nineveh will rise up, right?0.90
01:10:12.120But then Ezra, I'm thinking, well, that's really relevant.
01:10:15.040You know, not just like the founding of America, but rebuilding the rubble.
01:10:18.180And now as I'm preparing for that, though, you know, one of the things that I just, you know, I couldn't ignore was just, you know, in Ezra, it talks about, you know, this project of rebuilding.
01:10:28.520the temple and rebuilding Jerusalem, but there's a criteria, and I'm thinking about, you know,
01:10:33.620behold, I am the Lord, I changeth not, you know, so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed,
01:10:37.620same yesterday, today, and forever, his immutable standards, his law is not arbitrary, you know,
01:10:41.940I'm thinking of all these things, and especially in the Old Testament, right, because, you know,
01:10:46.380Ezra, it's, you know, so anyways, all that being said, there's, there is a criteria, there's so
01:10:52.640many people that when all of a sudden they're funded to go back and rebuild the temple in
01:10:57.340jerusalem um all these people want to be a part of it you know and and understandably so there's
01:11:02.200an excitement and buzz in the air and tragically many of them are sent away and they're sent away
01:11:07.140because they can't prove their lineage they don't have uh the the birth certificates they don't have
01:11:12.980the documented proof to be able to prove that there actually is israel according to the flesh
01:11:18.400ethnic israel and and for those um that aren't able to say we are actually ethnic israel and
01:11:24.300it's documented it's not like well i feel like a jew you know it's like no like i actually you
01:11:28.720know what i mean like yeah um yeah and and sadly so a lot of them are sent away and only those who
01:11:33.860could prove their lineage are able to rebuild the temple and i was just thinking about that and just
01:11:38.620thinking like if that's the standard and god's immutable in his standard and he's the same
01:11:44.480yesterday today and forever more he never changes who would be able to rebuild the temple today even
01:11:50.260if dispensationalism was true even if it was true and the temple mountain is secured and there's
01:11:54.700this project to rebuild the temple who would be able to in the days of ezra you know a ton of
01:12:00.140people were sent away because they couldn't prove it today 2 000 years removed from the the you know
01:12:05.880and they were already getting off track during the generation of of israel at the time of christ
01:12:10.220which is why there's such severe judgment so you're already like like a couple you know a few
01:12:15.100centuries way off track even at the time of christ then you've got 2 000 years later and and
01:12:20.120then talmudic judaism doesn't even come in until you know like third fourth century and you've got
01:12:24.240this like 200 something years of just this gap and you don't know who like seriously by god's
01:12:29.920standard by god's standard who would be allowed to build the temple today yeah that's exactly
01:12:36.140exactly that's a great that's exactly it exactly it nobody you know i mean maybe they would say
01:12:42.260well we can do dna tests and that'll be good enough but it's like that's not that's not what
01:12:47.000the standard was uh you know like you can't you can't you can't prove your even what would a dna
01:12:52.900test prove like how would what what would that you know like when somebody says i'm irish
01:12:58.880right we're not like we're not denying that there are groups of people but when if if somebody says
01:13:05.060i'm irish a lot of times what they mean is no no dude like my my grandparents grew up in ireland
01:13:11.480you know it's like oh it's like well i have red hair i can see a picture of them standing by this
01:13:17.040you know structure in iris you know what i mean like they're not like that's different the person's
01:13:21.180not saying i am pure blood irish for the last 2 000 years yeah so like when somebody says i'm
01:13:26.300from scotland it could be for the last 200 years but 2 000 years is a really long time and it's
01:13:32.060very difficult to track yeah yeah a hundred percent no it is and and and it's the other
01:13:37.820difficulty is that, you know, how do you, how do you isolate it? You know, how do you isolate it
01:13:42.680based on, because you, you have all sorts of people who have, you know, various gradations
01:13:47.720of, of, you know, descend, you know, uh, descent from Abraham that is not, is not from Jacob,
01:13:54.300you know? So how, I mean, so all of these things, it's, it's, it's so convoluted and, and, and such
01:13:59.060a mess and it's just tough. Yeah. And so it's, it's, yeah, it is. And, and so I look at it and
01:14:05.420it's like, no, these are not like, you need to, you need to think about it biblically. Like these
01:14:09.680are not the same people that the Bible is talking about, right? These are not, they're not under the
01:14:14.980same, they're not under the same promises and covenant that God has made. And so you can't
01:14:20.240look at it like, oh, some aspects of the old covenant are retained in, in some mysterious way
01:14:27.580and they're being kept off to the side. Um, no, they, they're a nation like, like any other,
01:14:33.720like you say, like Brazil or Uganda or whatever.
01:14:37.600They're a nation that needs to repent and believe
01:16:26.940And on top of that, like you have, like the law is set up that way where, you know, different, different peoples that you, for, you know, X number of generations, you're, you're outside of the assembly until, um, until like the fourth or fifth generation or the 10th generation in, in, in other cases.
01:16:44.820And so, um, but then you're incorporated in, right.
01:16:48.860Then you're, then you are treated as though you're 100%.0.74
01:16:55.400So, or 100% Israelite, depending on, you know, which part of the covenant, you know, which time frame you're in. And so anyway, like it, the law deals with all of that, right? It deals with all those things all and, you know.
01:17:25.400can anybody hear him on the stream or we just completely frozen right now
01:17:33.640all right then i'm just going to pick back up until we can get andrew back so
01:17:38.140that's the ethnic side but what i wanted to bring up that andrew was alluding to is also
01:17:43.640the covenantal side because it's not just the issue of blood but there's also the issue of
01:17:48.020covenant and this is i think one of the simplest ways that i could say that would be helpful for
01:17:51.540the listener. Again, this was James B. Jordan. I was reading him on this particular topic. Andrew's
01:17:58.120hopping back in. But one of the things that I read is it's probably a somewhat helpful comparison
01:18:03.260when we think of today's Judaism, namely Talmudic Judaism, to compare that. Today's Talmudic
01:18:10.300Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism in the same way that Mormonism is to Christianity. I'll say0.98
01:18:16.800that again. Today's Talmudic Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism, biblical Judaism, in the same0.98
01:18:25.120way that Mormonism is to Christianity. And what I mean by that is that it's not as though Jews0.92
01:18:31.600today simply have the Torah, which would be the Old Testament that both Christians hold as well,
01:18:37.600the sacred scripture, but that there's another book that's been written in order to function
01:18:43.660as a lens in interpreting the Old Testament, the Torah. So you have the Torah, but then you have
01:18:49.340this, the Talmud, you know, and in the same way that a Mormon would say, oh yeah, we're Christian
01:18:53.960too, you know? And on that point, even dispensational Christians, we're going to be
01:18:58.500real quick to say, no, sir, no, you're not. You're Mormon. There's a difference. You're not Christian
01:19:03.040because you have the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon is being placed over the New Testament,0.94
01:19:09.060over the Bible as a lens that reinterprets and ultimately twists and perverts the Bible.
01:19:17.140So the Book of Mormon isn't really in addition to the Bible. It actually cancels out the Bible.
01:19:23.200So too, the Talmud, it functions in a way that reinterprets and twists and cancels out
01:19:30.580the Torah, the Old Testament. And so when we speak of Jews today, not even from an ethnic sense,
01:19:36.820We've already covered that, but now talking about Jews today in a covenantal sense, Talmudic
01:19:41.860Judaism is to biblical Old Testament Judaism in the same way that Mormonism is to Christianity.
01:19:49.080That is to say, no relation, no relation, meaning not that it's not a covenant.0.52
01:19:55.080It can still be covenantal, but it is another covenant.0.92
01:19:58.560It's not a covenant with Yahweh as the Jews had in the Old Testament, but when it comes0.51
01:20:03.720to talmudic judaism i would say that it is a covenant in biblical terms it is a covenant with0.92
01:20:09.320satan it is a covenant with beelzebub it is a demonic covenant that talmudic judaism is it is
01:20:16.540a doctrine of demons it is not christian and it's also not old testament judaism it's simply not
01:20:23.900and so again uh that doesn't mean that this is you know the worst people on the planet just like0.91
01:28:31.340How should we encourage one another as Christians?
01:28:35.860Yeah, I think, I mean, it's something where if we take out the dispensational element, right, and this idea that, no, this is the special, holy, chosen land that we need to be praying for.
01:28:48.820We need to pray for the peace of Jerusalem because those are God's people.
01:28:51.380If we just take that out of the equation and you look at it like, I mean, you look at anything else, any other military conflict where innocent people are being killed, that's how we should look at it.
01:29:03.600where we want there to be peace we wouldn't want innocent people being killed we don't want war we
01:29:07.920want we don't want destruction uh we want and we see two groups of people uh largely i mean there
01:29:14.240are palestinian christians but it's predominantly muslim right we see two two groups that don't know
01:29:20.720the lord jesus christ and these are these are people that need to become christians and if
01:29:25.360there's ever going to be permanent lasting peace in that region it will come via the gospel of
01:29:30.240of jesus christ amen ultimately amen that's great all right um real quick where can people find your
01:29:37.040book boniface option yeah uh just go to bonifaceoption.com uh you'll be able to find it there
01:29:42.700or you can search for it on on amazon uh we also have it in the gab store i believe um but uh but
01:29:49.940those are those are the best places to find it and uh yeah hopefully hopefully you'll enjoy the
01:29:54.880discussion we're gonna have uh and it'll be in person so we don't have to worry about my internet
01:29:58.960being attacked um it'll be great i don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but i i do find it
01:30:05.640convenient yeah give her the conversation we're having today yeah the regime attacked
01:30:10.960my internet because they don't want this to get out that's exactly right that's what that's what
01:30:16.220you always have to say whether it's true or not i feel like i think of like cross-politic you know
01:30:20.380it's like we got you know we got canceled from this and we need rally and support and then
01:30:24.280sometimes i'm like but but but did you or did you just you know did you like oh actually we just
01:30:30.520lost this file it wasn't deleted you know a lot of guys you know sometimes it's like it's like
01:30:36.140we're under attack conservatives will be like we're under attack and it's like no i think it's
01:30:39.720because you're all boomers when it comes to your tech tech you know all right anyways but andrew
01:30:46.800thanks so much and i can't wait to see you in a couple weeks and you guys please keep us in your
01:30:50.620prayers because we want to produce a really practical, helpful conversation, especially
01:30:55.500for young men. Young men are angry, rightfully so, and we want to give them not just platitudes,
01:30:59.940but things that we can actually do to have a future for our children and our grandchildren.0.99
01:31:04.480So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you guys again next time.