The NXR Podcast - BONUS EPISODE - How Should Christians View Israel？

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00:00:29 All right. Welcome back. This is Right Response Ministries. I am Pastor Joel Webb and your host.

00:00:34 And what we do every single Monday is we go live at 2 p.m. Central Time. We talk about hot topics,

00:00:39 current events, theology, culture, politics, the whole nine yards. So every single Monday at 2

00:00:45 p.m. Central Time, join us. And then our other flagship show is on Tuesdays. So tomorrow, again,

00:00:52 2 p.m. Central Time. Every Tuesday, we have our flagship show. It's called Theology Apply. That's

00:00:56 where I interview notable guests within Christendom all over the world. And tomorrow, it's going to be

00:01:01 the guys from Haunted Cosmos. We're going to have Brian Sauve and Ben Garrett coming on the show

00:01:07 all the way from Ogden, Utah. And we're going to be talking about, well, Ben and I, about a month

00:01:12 or two ago, we talked about Watchers, Fallen Angels, Nephilim, the whole nine yards. But we're

00:01:17 going to continue that conversation and kind of go from Nephilim to Giants. And we're going to talk

00:01:20 about like giant classifications, like, all right, 12 foot tall giants, but what about 30 foot tall

00:01:27 giants? What about Amos? What about as tall as cedars? You know, those kinds of things. Did they

00:01:30 have special abilities? Did they learn this from their fallen angel fathers? These kinds of things

00:01:35 and more, Incredibly Unhinged. That's going to be tomorrow, 2 p.m., Theology Applied, joined by

00:01:40 the co-host of Haunted Cosmos. But without further ado, today, what we're going to be discussing

00:01:46 is Israel. We're going to talk about the current events in Israel. Certainly we are praying for

00:01:51 civilians in Israel as they are currently under attack. We're going to talk about Hamas,

00:01:56 talk about Iran, Palestine. We'll talk about Israel. We'll talk about them as a nation state.

00:02:01 We're going to talk about also some of the spiritual and theological implications. So we

00:02:06 also want to discuss dispensationalism. We want to discuss pre-mill dispensational eschatology.

00:02:13 We want to talk about physical promises for Israel, do any of those still continue, and

00:02:18 even spiritual promises for Israel.

00:02:20 And most notably, we're going to go into some of the terrain, that dark, shadowy place where

00:02:25 we're not supposed to enter, namely Romans chapter 11.

00:02:28 And to do all this, because I don't feel quite qualified to do it by myself, I have invited

00:02:34 a dear friend, Andrew Isker.

00:02:37 Pastor Andrew Isker, welcome to the show.

00:02:40 Yes, thank you.

00:02:41 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:42 Absolutely.

00:02:43 Tell our audience real quick, just who are you?

00:02:46 Tell them about your book.

00:02:47 Tell them about your church, whole nine yards.

00:02:49 Yeah, I am a pastor in a small town in rural Minnesota,

00:02:55 Waseka, Minnesota, my hometown.

00:02:57 I am pastoring a 4th Street Evangelical Church,

00:03:01 a small little church in this tiny little town.

00:03:04 And I, despite not being a big, giant church

00:03:08 with tons of influence and things like that,

00:03:10 the Lord has allowed me to be able to write things that people want to hear and do podcast,

00:03:18 things like this. And so for whatever reason, because the Lord is blessing me, I get to write

00:03:23 books. And one of my books that I've put out is The Boniface Option with Gab Press. And that just

00:03:32 came out this year. Last year, Andrew Torben and I wrote a book on Christian nationalism titled

00:03:38 christian nationalism and uh uh that uh that also did very well and it it uh in in that book we

00:03:45 discuss some of the stuff that you want to talk about here you know today and um and so yeah i uh

00:03:52 i've i've gotten to um do a lot of cool stuff in the last couple years and and yeah the lord has

00:03:58 really blessed a lot of the work we've done awesome yeah it's been a blessing to me the

00:04:02 boniface option you and i it's worth noting uh we're going to go ahead and have a third guy

00:04:07 join us for this endeavor, but A.D. Robles is going to be joining us. And so this week,

00:04:11 I'm going to be at Fight, Laugh, Feast. I'm going to be doing a panel with Stephen Wolfe and Doug

00:04:15 Wilson on Christian nationalism. But the following week, no, the next week after that, so I guess

00:04:21 two and a half weeks from now, you and A.D. are both going to come out and we're going to be

00:04:25 talking about your book and we're doing a special recording project. So for all of our listeners,

00:04:29 it's going to be a few months in the making because what we're going to do is we're going

00:04:32 to produce it with high quality in post on the back end. So we're going to record it,

00:04:37 but it's going to be in-house.

00:04:38 Instead of virtually, we're actually flying in

00:04:40 Andrew Isker and Aidy Robles and myself,

00:04:42 the three of us, we're going to set up in the studio

00:04:44 and we're going to have like an eight-part series.

00:04:47 So not just one episode, but eight episodes,

00:04:49 a whole season dedicated to the Boniface option,

00:04:52 getting into the weeds, practical, tangible ways.

00:04:55 How do we destroy Trash World,

00:04:58 chop down Thor's oak?

00:05:00 And then how do we, out of the ashes,

00:05:02 rebuild Chrysidom?

00:05:04 And so we're going to be doing that

00:05:04 and then producing it really well.

00:05:06 it's something that we've never done as a ministry before, but we're trying to make this

00:05:09 special project and see how it goes. So I'm super excited about that. But yeah, aside from that,

00:05:17 let's go ahead and get into today's topic. We're going to be talking about Israel. And I feel like

00:05:21 I want to get into the theology because one thing that we want to cover is how should Christians,

00:05:27 especially Christians on the other side of the world, right? We're not in the Middle East. There

00:05:31 are Christians in the Middle East. God bless them. Our prayers are with them for protection,

00:05:35 all these things. But as Christians in America, predominantly our listener base is in America,

00:05:40 how should we view Israel? How does God view Israel? What does his word say about Israel?

00:05:45 But before we get to that, that I think is vital. We've got to cover it. But I think we'd be remiss

00:05:50 if we don't just right out of the gate deal with some of the current events going on. So Andrew,

00:05:56 can you maybe just, I don't know, a synopsis, catch us up to speed over the weekend? I mean,

00:06:01 these are historic things happening right now. The dispensationalists are getting excited.

00:06:05 Yeah, they are. It was, I believe, the 50th anniversary on Saturday was the 50th anniversary

00:06:12 of the Yom Kippur War. And, you know, apparently Hamas, you know, the terrorist organization

00:06:21 in Palestine and Gaza, took the opportunity to launch a series of widespread attacks. I mean,

00:06:30 I'm sure most people have already seen some of these things and some of the news already, but they – and it's hard because how do you know all the things that you're seeing on TV or online are legit?

00:06:42 You never really fully can know is this real or not, but very, very brutal, barbaric attacks that they launched, killed women and children, entered into like bunkers and executed people,

00:06:58 took all sorts of people, prisoners, especially women. Apparently there's something like 50 or 60

00:07:04 female Israeli soldiers who were taken captive. And just extremely brutal stuff. There was

00:07:13 apparently for some reason, a rave party for peace right on the border of Israel and Gaza

00:07:22 that they assaulted. You can see the video of these guys coming in gliders, like a video game

00:07:27 almost. And they took all these, they killed people and presumably did horrific things to

00:07:35 the women. And all of it seems to be that they want to provoke a response from Israel, which

00:07:43 they're assumedly going to get. Apparently the Israelis are going to send a thousand troops

00:07:49 into the Gaza Strip and attack the place. And they've already launched airstrikes and things

00:07:55 like that. And so it's, um, it seems to be pretty consequential. It seems like it's, it's a large,

00:08:02 large event that it isn't just, you know, the random kind of terror attacks that, that periodically

00:08:06 happen, uh, in that area. It seems much, much bigger than that. Um, and, and the backstory of

00:08:12 it too, is that, um, especially during the Trump administration, there were, um, major peace,

00:08:20 uh, accords that were reached between, um, Israel and all of these, you know, Gulf states,

00:08:27 Saudi Arabia, Qatar, uh, UAE. And, um, these were, these were a pretty big deal. And, um,

00:08:35 a lot of it is they, they want to achieve a certain rapprochement with, with, um, with these 0.51

00:08:43 Gulf states, because then they're a buffer against Iran that they're, those are basically the two

00:08:47 Poles in the Middle East or the Saudis on the one hand and the Iranians on the other. And if 0.73

00:08:53 they're in good with Israel and of course the United States, then they achieve a certain level 0.91

00:09:01 of security against Iran. And so what these attacks seem to be, if there's any deeper underlying

00:09:08 reason for them, it's to destroy that peace. You already see statements from the Saudis and Qatar

00:09:15 um and i believe egypt that have condemned israel in the midst of being attacked it seems it seems

00:09:22 bizarre it's like well they basically are like ah you deserved it and and so it seems to be that

00:09:29 they're achieving the goal especially if they they go in and force and just level gaza that the all 0.63

00:09:35 of these arabs arab states that they were on very good terms with they're not going to be anymore 0.53

00:09:40 And so there's deeper geopolitical stuff in all of this that is behind the scenes. 0.99

00:09:49 And it's uncertain that in the past, they've been able to go into Gaza and lay waste to this place fairly easily.

00:09:57 You have a modern military going up against people that are not very well armed.

00:10:01 Sometimes they just have rocks, right?

00:10:03 But if there are, you know, loads of weapons that have been funneled into Gaza because, you know, American weapons have been, you know, just left lying around, you know, in Afghanistan and in Ukraine, then it might be a much more difficult task for the Israelis to go in like they have in the past. 0.52

00:10:28 So, right. So, so going forward, yeah, it's going to be going to be pretty dicey. Yeah.

00:10:34 Thank you. That's super helpful. So with all that being said for the listener, you know,

00:10:37 my understanding, right. I feel like I'm going to be helpful in this conversation in a Michael

00:10:42 Scott sort of way. Right. So like, explain it to me like I'm five, you know, like what is a surplus?

00:10:47 You know, but from my understanding, you know, and, and doing some research and trying to

00:10:51 understand what's going on. One of the things that this is not like some full militia,

00:10:56 this was guerrilla warfare they were going this was civilians uh in terms of the israelis they

00:11:02 were going into individual uh civilians homes and and just as far as what we can tell and just

00:11:08 shooting like a elderly couple in their bed as they're sleeping you know yeah things like that

00:11:14 or yeah and so terrible terrible things uh that that have been taking place um absolutely we

00:11:20 believe that uh that israel has a right and responsibility to their citizens to uh defend

00:11:25 physical life. And so you and I, we have certain views on this topic theologically.

00:11:33 But here's the deal that I think I just want to say as a disclaimer right out the gate.

00:11:39 Israel, you know, 75 years ago, whether or not there should have been the nation state of Israel

00:11:45 established 75 years ago in the Middle East and all these, putting that question aside for a

00:11:55 And so you have people, whether these people are synonymous with biblical Jews of the Old

00:12:02 Testament, which you and I, we'd have some serious pushback on that, and we'll get to

00:12:06 that in a moment.

00:12:07 But regardless, what we do know for sure is that they're people.

00:12:10 They're made in the image of God.

00:12:12 They have an innate value and dignity.

00:12:15 Life is worthy of defense, and it is a nation.

00:12:20 It is a sovereign nation state that does exist in God's providence.

00:12:24 He allowed it to take place, and these are image-bearing people, and from what we can tell, being brutally slaughtered.

00:12:31 And the only reason we offer any of those descriptives of apparently or allegedly, it's not to say this isn't happening.

00:12:37 We're not labeling this propaganda, but we are just acknowledging that we—I mean, right now, so much of the regime is this war machine.

00:12:46 And it's just foolish for us to get fooled 15 minutes ago and then fall for the same thing.

00:12:53 So we want to have compassion and we don't want to be just conspiracist for the heck of it.

00:13:01 But we also do want to have a holy suspicion and recognizing that some of the stuff that came out with Ukraine and Russia in the final analysis was just absolute propaganda, right?

00:13:10 Like the ghost of Kiev, you know, or whatever.

00:13:13 Like there were certain things it's like, oh, well, that actually did not happen.

00:13:17 So we're not saying nothing happened, but we're just saying we want to be careful.

00:13:22 I'm reminded, you know, of the Summer of Love 2020, you know, the Kenosha riots.

00:13:26 And there's all, you know, there's so many things.

00:13:28 And even before that, like, hands up, don't shoot is a myth.

00:13:32 Never happened.

00:13:33 You know what I mean?

00:13:34 And so many of us fell for that.

00:13:36 And I think Christians are particularly susceptible because of all of Christ's commands about compassion and loving our neighbor.

00:13:43 And so we see these kinds of things.

00:13:45 And immediately, you know, you're emotionally drawn into it.

00:13:49 And I think that's a good instinct in a lot of ways.

00:13:51 But we don't want to subtract that.

00:13:53 We simply want to add to it discernment and wisdom and temperance.

00:13:58 And so as we're talking about these things, both Andrew and I are fully on board that 0.94

00:14:04 there is something crazy going down right now in Israel, that Hamas is, that they're 0.96

00:14:08 Islamic terrorists. 0.97

00:14:10 These are not good guys. 1.00

00:14:12 And that the Israeli people are created in the image of God and that it appears as though 0.87

00:14:18 at least several have been brutally murdered and Israel is within its rights to defend its

00:14:24 national citizens. Wouldn't it be awesome if America would do the same? But that's kind of

00:14:30 the lay of the land. And then from that, we want to get into Romans 11, the theology, how should

00:14:36 Christians view Israel? But also the larger world stage, and you alluded to it, Andrew, but getting

00:14:43 beyond just the skirmish that's happening currently, what are the implications globally

00:14:49 for the United States of America? Or could China come in? How big could this get? But before we get

00:14:58 there, real quick, I'll let you answer that question. But right now, let's get a brief

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00:16:24 All right, so Pastor Andrew, how big could this thing get?

00:16:28 oh you know it's it's hard to say like making prognostications is of course you know impossible 0.60

00:16:34 to know exactly and and anytime you make them and it's always it can look somewhat foolish you know

00:16:41 in retrospect um but i mean there's there's a whole bunch of different potentialities of

00:16:47 of outcomes um you know it i mean the wild card is the united states and the biden administration

00:16:55 and the, you know, the whole regime, um, it certainly seems like the, you know, the Bush

00:17:01 era neocons are, are champing at the bit to, to do something. Uh, you see guys like Lindsey Graham

00:17:07 say, Oh, we need to attack Iran now. And people like, um, you know, Nikki Haley, people like that

00:17:12 who are, um, you know, wanting the United States to engage in, in warfare in the middle East.

00:17:19 And that, that, you know, you can't discount that, that possibility. Um, I mean, of course they 0.80

00:17:24 brought um they've brought an aircraft carrier you know right into the eastern mediterranean

00:17:29 a carrier group and and that presents a question of like well and they have blood us that's yeah

00:17:35 yeah yeah biden yeah they uh yeah i try not to differ it's hard because it's like yeah that's

00:17:40 my country uh but uh but i i i somewhat disassociate the leadership of uh the regime

00:17:46 from us you know but um but yeah for clarity's sake yeah um the and that's the the gerald ford

00:17:54 it's the largest aircraft right yeah it's largest aircraft carrier in the fleet as far as i know

00:17:58 and and you know even that it i look at that and it's like well you know hezbollah has anti-ship

00:18:04 missiles and it doesn't you know it's it's just like the show of force it's like it's not like

00:18:09 the they're going to run you know carrier-based operations against the gaza strip you you would

00:18:14 imagine and so it's it's if anything it presents a vulnerability to the to the regime where it's

00:18:20 like here's this big giant expensive, you know, multi-billion dollar ship. And, you know, Hezbollah 0.89

00:18:26 is aligned with, with the Palestinians and they have anti-ship missiles and they've sunk ships

00:18:31 in the Mediterranean before. And so it's like, why are they doing this and putting this big 0.79

00:18:35 giant target out for them to hit? And so it's like, you don't want to get too conspiratorial,

00:18:40 but it's like, are they asking it to get sunk, you know, to bring the United States into a larger

00:18:44 conflict um but you know where things could go it's hard to say i mean if if uh the israelis go

00:18:51 into gaza and and you know level the place and it's it's quick and it's done with um it it's

00:18:59 something that probably will be forgotten you know a few months down the road and uh for the sake of

00:19:05 like the geopolitics and and for our country and for us um you almost hope that that it's resolved

00:19:11 quickly in that manner, even though obviously thousands of people are going to be, almost 0.97

00:19:18 certainly now at this point, going to be killed and including not just Muslims in Gaza, but

00:19:25 there are also many Christians there as well. 0.81

00:19:29 And so all of it is just horrific that this terrorist group attacks and they know Israel's

00:19:36 response is what it's going to be. And they, they do it knowing they're going to provoke that

00:19:41 response and cause the deaths of, of, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of innocent people

00:19:48 on their own side. And, and so all of it is just, is brutal and awful. And it's, it's difficult to

00:19:55 talk about when you think about it, especially now when everybody, including these people in

00:19:59 like dire poverty still have iPhones and they're, you know, they're, they're filming everything.

00:20:04 You see it, you see it in a way that in the past where it would just be like CNN's cameras or whatever the TV news crews could show us.

00:20:11 Now it's, we see everything.

00:20:13 We have access to all of it.

00:20:14 I mean, it's similar with like the Ukraine war where there's, there's video that, that comes out where we can see things that are happening that we wouldn't have even 10 years ago.

00:20:24 So it's the realities of, and the brutality of, of this warfare is, is much more visceral now.

00:20:30 But if it doesn't – if the Israelis go in and it's not easy for them and the Palestinians have much more – far greater access to high-tech weaponry and they're able to fight and hold the Israelis off and it is this brutal slugfest, then you could see conflict widening and opening up.

00:20:52 And perhaps Gulf states now entering a conflict and becoming something like the Six Days War, where now they're fighting actual nation states on top of the Palestinians that are nearby.

00:21:04 And the wider it gets and the more embroiled it gets, the higher likelihood the United States becomes involved in some – we're already involved in one sense, but in a much more dynamic way.

00:21:15 Right. Thank you.

00:21:16 um so we we know that you know at least from 20 years ago and just our involvement in the

00:21:23 middle east or or even you know money or accounts that we've unfroze even recently with iran and

00:21:30 things like that that's um we know that there's in that sense there has been financial support

00:21:34 and there has been equipment and things like that that's been you know sold on the black market and

00:21:38 these are things that we know have happened at least um in past years is is you know is as long

00:21:44 as 20 years ago and as recent as much more recent, just a few years ago. Do we have any

00:21:52 definitive knowledge at this point in regards to more recent things like our complete abandonment

00:21:59 and the pathetic withdrawal in Afghanistan? And of course, our funding of Ukraine, where there's

00:22:06 no accountability. It's not like these things are accounted for. So Zelensky says, I need another

00:22:12 billion you know and then we say absolutely let's make it three you know and then um you know and

00:22:18 then and then he he buys a bunch of stuff you know and when i say stuff i mean like like bombs that

00:22:23 go boom and it and easily could say okay we needed you know we bought 100 bombs because the u.s just

00:22:30 gave us a blank check and we needed 70 and we're going to sell 30 and who buys those who so my

00:22:35 question is we know that the decisions of our involvement the west involvement in the past

00:22:42 have have have played out poorly and and simply arming um militia in the middle east uh for

00:22:49 towards nefarious ends have some of our recent decisions namely i'm thinking afghanistan ukraine

00:22:55 do we have any definitive proof at this point that that hamas may actually have some of those

00:23:01 weapons and equipment i mean there's there's been all sorts of speculation along the those lines i

00:23:07 mean there isn't i mean apparently this morning there was something that the russians put out that

00:23:11 that, that claimed that the Ukrainians have sold weapons. And of course the other side says the

00:23:16 same thing that the Russians are selling Ukrainian weapons. So it's, it's hard to know, you know,

00:23:21 one way or the other, like, like you said earlier, all of the, you know, so much of this stuff is,

00:23:26 it's so nebulous and foggy. It's, it's hard to know the truth in, in real time as things unfold,

00:23:33 you don't really know until we have much further down the road. But at least stands to reason that,

00:23:39 yeah, you leave billions of dollars worth of weaponry in Afghanistan and the Taliban has it

00:23:45 and they can do whatever they want with it. They can sell it to whoever they want to the highest

00:23:49 bidder. And the same thing with Ukraine where there are hundreds of billions of dollars worth

00:23:56 of weapons, very high tech weapons. And people are like, well, they're going to use all of them

00:24:01 against the Russians. And it's like, I don't think you quite appreciate just how corrupt

00:24:07 Eastern Europe is, and in particular Ukraine, where it's like, yeah, maybe they'll use nine 0.91

00:24:13 out of every 10, but that 10th one, some general or some apparatchik in the Zelensky regime

00:24:19 is skimming off the top and can make a lot of money. And so that's how things operate over

00:24:25 there and in Russia too. And so, yeah, all of these weapons can easily get funneled who knows

00:24:32 where. And that's been the criticism of American operations in Ukraine for the last two years.

00:24:37 is, uh, we're handing out all these weapons. How it's not like every time you shoot a Russian tank,

00:24:43 you know, there's a receipt that goes back to the Pentagon and says, all right, we use this

00:24:47 against the Russians. Here's the proof. Right. So you have no way of knowing, right? That's,

00:24:52 that's the, it's the big question mark is all of these weapons are out there and they're just

00:24:56 unleashed and they're unleashed on a people who are incredibly corrupt and like to skim off the

00:25:02 top. And so, and this is, I mean, this, this has been part of, you know, warfare for millennia is

00:25:09 people steal from the supplies, right? That's what, that's what they do. And so, so I think

00:25:15 it would be foolish to, to think that that isn't happening at all. Absolutely. That they're very

00:25:20 disciplined to know that of course not. And so is it possible that they end up with, with Hamas 0.77

00:25:25 in Palestine? You know, certainly it is. Cause I mean, look, look at all, like all the weapons 0.97

00:25:31 that they've used heretofore, you know, rockets and so forth, it's supposed to be this totally

00:25:35 sealed off place where they can't get anything in. And they've got thousands of rockets that

00:25:40 get imported in there somehow. So why wouldn't, um, you know, man pads, these anti-tank missiles

00:25:46 and things like that. There was a, there was a video and it's hard to say again, like,

00:25:49 how do you know if these videos are legit or real, or if they're from a video game even, right.

00:25:54 Um, but there was this video of, of Palestinians shooting down an Israeli helicopter, uh, using,

00:25:59 anti-aircraft missiles. And it's like, well, where did they get those? The Taliban, Ukraine, 0.72

00:26:03 who knows, right? But if they are armed with some high-tech weaponry, and even just with drones, 0.92

00:26:11 I mean, Iran makes all of the, or not all of, but many of the drones that the Russians use. 0.56

00:26:16 And so does Hezbollah have those? Do they smuggle them into Gaza to be able to use against Israeli

00:26:24 tanks. It's hard to say what's going to happen. I mean, here we are sitting two days afterward

00:26:31 when they're about to launch this massive operation. And so we don't know. It could be

00:26:37 over before it starts, or it could go on for a long time. It's hard to say. And at a minimum,

00:26:47 um, um, what, what seems most likely is that the United States, um, you know, the regime that

00:26:53 rules over us, um, wants to be involved in, in this conflict to, to, to some degree, you know,

00:27:01 it's hard to say exactly what, um, and with an election coming up, um, they want, you know,

00:27:08 obviously want to use whatever they can to maintain their hold on power. And so the easiest

00:27:15 way to do that is with war uh that's that's just known everyone knows that if you if you want to

00:27:19 hold power you know if you go if you send your nation to war then then it's easy to consolidate

00:27:24 domestically yeah let's so let's talk about that for a moment because you know like so the other

00:27:30 day i was at costco with my family right and um and i noticed you know there was a massive increase

00:27:37 even here in texas of uh some some mask wearing and i was thinking you know i'm going to get a

00:27:42 jumpstart in october right so i'm being i'm being really fiscally wise here i'm going to get a

00:27:47 jumpstart on uh decorations for christmas but i realized that everybody else was already decorating

00:27:52 for election season you know like here i am way behind you know so um but um but so so yeah sure

00:28:00 we'll roll out you know like we'll that that one trick pony of covid you know uh right on schedule

00:28:04 but a lot of people won't fall for that now sadly a lot of people will they'll be like hey you

00:28:09 tricked me. And then somebody will do the same trick and be like, oh, okay. And so sadly, a lot

00:28:13 of people really are that foolish. A lot of Christians even are really that foolish. But 1.00

00:28:19 by God's grace, I'd like to think that not as many would fall for it. And so you're going to

00:28:23 need something more than that to draw election day out to election month to election season and

00:28:29 harvesting ballots and the whole nine yards. And so that something could be, well, okay,

00:28:33 we can replay COVID. But in addition, we could also sprinkle in a little bit of

00:28:38 World War III. That might do the trick. Now, with that being said, you and I were talking 0.86

00:28:45 offline and it was really helpful because I was wondering, but how does war help the current

00:28:51 administration stay in power? I can see how COVID can say, well, you can't, you're going to have to

00:28:58 vote remotely, mail-in ballots and all this kind of stuff. But how does war on the other side of

00:29:03 the planet mind you specifically how does that help rig potentially we're not saying this is

00:29:09 gonna but potentially rig an election and you you answered that question for me and i found it really

00:29:14 helpful and again this is speculation but yeah yeah and who knows we could again we could we 1.00

00:29:19 could you know you play this video back you know a year from now and oh sure look at these idiots 0.99

00:29:24 they thought this was gonna happen right well but it won't be it won't be that bad i'd like to think 0.97

00:29:28 it'll be better than y2k but but uh yeah but it won't be that bad because let the let the listener

00:29:34 understand i use the words we are speculating we're naming it we're not these are not prophecies

00:29:39 we're not saying this will happen this is we're simply saying this is something that could happen

00:29:44 and discerning christians should be simply aware yeah that's what i'm saying yeah so we're not

00:29:49 making any any prophecies yeah yeah we're not saying this is definitely gonna happen uh which

00:29:54 some christians do they they literally like and this is this is going to this is what i predicted

00:29:58 14 years ago like and at that point a verse from the minor prophets to try to justify it right so

00:30:06 we're not doing that we're just saying it's possible yeah yeah and so i i think you know

00:30:10 so say say the situation boils over and that the calls to attack iran um um begin to be

00:30:21 gain widespread acceptance, right? So one of the things is that it's clear, I think incontrovertible

00:30:32 that the Iranians, they're aligned with Hezbollah and Gaza, that they support to one degree or

00:30:39 another these operations. And the segment of neocons in the GOP want that, they've wanted

00:30:49 that war to happen um since george w bush was president right since he gives his speech at the

00:30:54 state of the union and says iraq iran north korea right well excuse me the um they've wanted iran

00:31:02 forever you know you have the picture of benjamin netanyahu with the like clip art version of a of a

00:31:07 bomb at the un and saying they're gonna get it any any minute now and that's like 20 years ago

00:31:13 they still haven't gotten it. But they've wanted to attack them for decades. And this could be

00:31:21 the thing where they finally get to do that. And whatever degree the US wants to be involved in

00:31:29 that, they're going to be involved in it to one degree or another, almost certainly. And so if

00:31:35 there's an attack, if it's just aerial bombardment, right, there's no invasion, it's just bombing 0.65

00:31:40 Iran. It's still, um, puts the United States on this war footing. And there would like right now,

00:31:47 um, the U S military, I mean, for, for year after year has fallen behind its recruiting goals by

00:31:54 like 20 or 25%. And the number of, of active duty infantry men, like the actual guys with guns that

00:32:01 will go fight is, is like, you know, a hundred thousand, right. Maybe, maybe more depending on

00:32:07 how you calculate it uh but but not not anywhere near the strength of the u.s army really at any

00:32:13 point um and so in order to fight a massive conflict right if there's going to be one and

00:32:20 also you have to keep in mind like the ukraine war still going on they're running out of men

00:32:24 and and are they going to try to put put american troops in there or nato troops in there um uh do

00:32:30 what do the chinese do they want taiwan and they would maybe sense american weakness or

00:32:36 overextension in other parts of the world. And then do you have to defend that place too? And

00:32:40 there was a paper that came out, I think it was last week or two weeks ago from the Army War

00:32:44 College about both Ukraine and Taiwan saying that if the United States had to defend Taiwan

00:32:53 militarily, they would lose 3,600 men a day. And the current force status is such that they don't

00:33:00 have enough people, enough men to sustain losses like that. And so you would have, their conclusion

00:33:06 is you would have to have conscription. You'd have to have a draft. And so like you add a draft

00:33:10 to our entire, you know, political chaos that we currently have. And then what, what also happens

00:33:17 at wartime, like we haven't undergone anything like this in our lifetimes, but what happens is

00:33:24 there are massive restrictions on the populace, right? So, you know, during World War II,

00:33:29 There's rationing. I mean, there could be, I mean, just when you, like you mentioned, going to Costco, right? You just look at the prices, right? If there's, if you're having to pay for a war on the other side of the planet that, and, and massive military buildup to bring it about, right? There's going to be even more inflation. And so all of these things will be thrown into chaos. They're, they're, you know, maybe we'd be popular unrest over a draft, things like that. Like you could see how the road that this could go down if it unravels like this.

00:33:57 um and so in order to you know maintain control maintain power they they do things just as

00:34:02 restrictive as lockdowns and maybe they would even do lockdowns like well we're at war we did

00:34:06 we did everyone to stay home right that is and and you could see people they wouldn't get fooled by

00:34:12 by covid but they could be like oh we are at war and we have enemies and we better we better just

00:34:17 stay inside our house or or whatever they would do maybe whatever you know restriction of civil

00:34:22 liberties that they would bring about, uh, it's certainly conceivable, right. That, that things

00:34:27 like this would happen over the next year. So that's, that's the thing. And, and on top of it

00:34:32 is you have, you know, the American, like the, the left side of the aisle of the body politic 0.60

00:34:39 in America, uh, other than the very far left, um, is just bloodthirsty for any war that the regime

00:34:45 puts on the table. They'll be like, yep, go kill them. They're bad. Um, and so they're, 0.99

00:34:50 they're on board with whatever but on the right side especially like the the trump voter the mega

00:34:55 voter their their their instincts are very much to be anti-war they want america to be out of

00:35:00 these foreign entanglements but at the same time if you bring in israel they all believe

00:35:07 they're all influenced by various strains of dispensationalism and they think well this these

00:35:12 are god's chosen holy people and we we have a duty as christians to defend them that's right

00:35:17 Your average Trump voter is a big fan of Schofield.

00:35:23 Yeah, absolutely.

00:35:25 They've never heard his name before.

00:35:27 That's right.

00:35:27 But it's just they've grown up.

00:35:28 It's like a fish passing another fish in the ocean and saying, man, the water sure is nice today.

00:35:33 What's water?

00:35:34 But that's dispensationalism.

00:35:36 And your average Trump guy, and we're not saying they're not Christian.

00:35:39 Like God looks at the outward appearance.

00:35:41 God sees the heart.

00:35:42 And perfect theology is not a prerequisite for salvation.

00:35:46 And so a lot of these people are regenerate. They're salt of the earth, blue-collar people

00:35:50 who love the Lord, and they love them some Trump also, but they're wrong. They are wrong.

00:35:55 And they don't know any better.

00:35:56 And they don't know any better. But when they... You're right. Their overall instinct is,

00:36:02 let's actually put America first. That is a Trumpian kind of... So America first, except

00:36:08 the one exception would be, but what about God's chosen people? And so that's what we need to get 0.95

00:36:14 to now. So I think we're ready. That's a perfect segue to go into the theology of dispensationalism

00:36:19 and talk about eschatology and talk about Israel and those kinds of things in the spiritual sense,

00:36:25 covenantal sense, ethnic sense, all those things. But before we do, real quick, let's hear from our

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00:38:21 All right, so let's talk about it, Pastor Andrew. I think we're ready. Romans 11,

00:38:26 and dispensationalism the whole nine yard is you know israel god's chosen people

00:38:32 what how should christians think about israel today yeah um so i guess where do we where do

00:38:40 we want to begin with that you know i had a uh a tweet uh i had a tweet the other day that was

00:38:45 you know i guess controversial it wasn't controversial to me uh but i i just i flat

00:38:50 said that this nation that exists, the people that call those Jews today, the nation of Israel

00:38:59 and so forth, that Christians should understand that these are not the same people that the

00:39:05 Old Testament calls Jews because those people, the Jews in the Old Testament, they were in

00:39:15 a covenant with God in the old covenant. And that old covenant no longer exists. It doesn't exist,

00:39:23 at least in the same way. It's, it's superseded by the new covenant and the, you know, the apostle

00:39:28 Paul extremely clear in both Romans and the book of Galatians that all those, all the promises to

00:39:36 Abraham belong to those of the faith of Abraham only, only to those who believe that that those

00:39:43 promises no longer apply to these people and i think you know at least most reformed christians

00:39:48 they they get that right they understand okay yep those promises those belong to christians

00:39:53 right both jew and gentile in in the old old covenant paradigm um those belong to those of

00:40:00 the faith of abraham those who believe in that the physical problem like the physical promises

00:40:06 were for abraham's physical seed his his actual uh blood descendants but there are spiritual

00:40:12 promises that are not for children according to the flesh, but children according to the promise,

00:40:16 those according to the Spirit. And you're right, your typical Reformed, within the Reformed

00:40:20 tradition, your typical Reformed evangelical Christian is going to be supersessionism,

00:40:26 the fulfillment theology. They're going to say the church is the fulfillment, is the final,

00:40:32 truest spiritual fulfillment of Israel. And so they're going to say, no, there's no more land

00:40:36 promises. God fulfilled that. And it's interesting, we just finished the book of Joshua, and it's so

00:40:42 interesting. We got to Joshua chapter 23 and it says, and everything that I spoke through my

00:40:46 servant Moses came to pass, that you inhabited all of the land, all these promises are fulfilled.

00:40:53 And then there are some new promises for the rebuilding of the temple, but then those things

00:40:56 come to pass with Nehemiah and with Ezra. And so these things have come to pass. But for the average

00:41:02 the average reformed christian my understanding um is is that we believe that there's not a

00:41:08 current promise these were promises and it's not that god changed his mind he behold i in the lord

00:41:13 i changeth not uh these are promises it's not that god changes mind but but god actually fulfilled

00:41:18 these promises they've been fulfilled he brought them uh to pass and and and so god fulfilled his

00:41:24 end of of the covenant uh with these land promises and so those are not continuing they're in our

00:41:29 past, not in our future. So those aren't continuing today. That's that preterist hermeneutic. Preterist

00:41:36 just means past. And so these prophecies in the Old Testament were in the future of the immediate

00:41:42 audience, the Jews that were being written to, but they're not in our future. They're in our past 1.00

00:41:47 with the land promises. But then when we get to like Romans chapter 11, even within the post

00:41:53 millennial, so I'm thinking of like David Chilton and some of these guys, the average post-millennial

00:41:56 reformed covenant theology rather than dispensationalism would say, okay, the land

00:42:03 promises are done. And again, that doesn't mean that Israel can't be there and they have to,

00:42:07 you know, like what's done is done. They're there. They're there. But it does mean that there's not

00:42:13 a divine land right in 2023. So we're going to talk about Israel as a nation state the same way

00:42:18 we would about Brazil or any other nation. But most, again, reformed post-millennial guys would 0.59

00:42:24 say, okay, that's in terms of the physical promises, but there are still these spiritual

00:42:29 promises, and not just for spiritual Israel, all of Abraham's descendants by faith, those who trust

00:42:36 Christ, Christians, but there's actually spiritual promises still for ethnic Israel, according to

00:42:42 Romans 11. And that would be David Chilton, that would be guys that we love, like Doug Wilson,

00:42:47 right? He would hold to that? Yeah, a lot of Reformed people hold to that,

00:42:52 um, to the, to the view that there still is this eschatological purpose for the descendants of

00:42:58 Abraham, right. On into the future. Um, and you know, my, my view is different than that. There's,

00:43:06 there's, there are other views, um, uh, of Romans 11. And, um, one, you know, one of the,

00:43:12 the main things to keep in mind is that Paul is, is writing Romans. He's writing it while the old

00:43:19 covenant and the new covenant are overlapping. So the old covenant is still, during the time

00:43:27 of the apostles, it's still in operation, right? There still is a temple. They're still doing

00:43:30 sacrifices. And this is the main point of the book of Hebrews is like the Judaizers are attacking 0.99

00:43:37 the church, saying you need to go back to the old covenant in order to really be saved. And

00:43:42 the book of Hebrews is saying, no, do not go back. That place is going to get destroyed and there's

00:43:49 not going to be any sacrifice for sins left. Do not abandon Jesus and go back there. That's the

00:43:55 entire point. And so you read the book of Hebrews now, it's not relevant in the same way that it

00:44:01 was relevant to the original audience of the book of Hebrews, because there is no temple. There is

00:44:06 no Israel to return to. There is no old covenant to return to. There's no threat in the same way. 0.60

00:44:13 Now we can apply it in, in, to our situation and so forth. And that's, you know, good preachers do that. But it's not, it's not the exact same anymore. And, and so if you read Romans in the same vein, right, Paul is, is concerned about his kinsmen according to the flesh, all of these, all of these people in the old covenant that don't understand that their entire purpose for existence, right?

00:44:40 I mean, just thinking about it, um, biblically over, over the whole course of the Bible,

00:44:44 like, why does Israel exist? Why, why do the Jews exist? Why, why does this old covenant exist?

00:44:50 It's to bring about the seed, right? To bring about the promised seed from all the way back

00:44:55 in Genesis chapter three, that is their raison d'etre. That's their reason for being. And he

00:45:01 came he's here right it's jesus right and so um at that point right jesus comes and he's the true

00:45:10 israel he's the true israelite and so now um both jew and gentile need to be incorporated into him

00:45:17 to receive these promises and and in 70 ad right that the old covenant comes to a complete close

00:45:24 it's done the temple's destroyed it's never going to be rebuilt sorry dispensationalists that are

00:45:29 pining for a third temple. It's not going to happen. And it it's destroyed. The old covenant

00:45:35 is not coming back. There's nothing to go back to. There are those, those promises are done,

00:45:40 right? These it's, it's over. And so you read Romans 11 with that in mind, right? That the

00:45:47 old Testament or the old covenant is about to come to its close. And Paul is saying right before it

00:45:53 does, there is, there is going to be all Israel is going to be saved, right? All of the, all of

00:45:59 the Israelites, this faithful remnant that God has reserved, they're going to be brought in before

00:46:04 the end comes, right? That's what Paul is talking about. And many reformed people that have the

00:46:08 other view, they're thinking way off thousands of years into the future. But the preterist view

00:46:14 of Romans 11 is that, no, that also already happened, that thousands of Jews were converted

00:46:19 before Jerusalem fell. So let me stop you. So that's super helpful, but let me stop you and

00:46:25 just ask you know clarifying questions along the way so one yep uh when do you think the book of

00:46:30 romans was written um you probably there's it's hard to say i'm thinking 55 um my way off 50 i

00:46:39 mean they're they're different views uh between 55 and 62 ad okay yeah and then and then would

00:46:45 you be among those i i think this is my position i'm still studying some on it but i lean towards

00:46:49 right now i believe i definitely think hebrews was pre-8070 i think revelation was pre-8070 not

00:46:56 by much i think that one was right on the heels you know by maybe a year or two um but i i think

00:47:01 at this point i i've pretty much settled that i i believe that every single new testament book of

00:47:05 the bible was pre-8070 yeah yeah i would i would agree okay and so uh romans because that's what

00:47:11 we're discussing right now romans 9 through 11 particularly 11 we think that that one was not

00:47:16 like a 80-69 kind of situation, but more of like a, this is, you know, we've got a good 10-15 years

00:47:22 to go. Yeah, something like that, yeah. Okay, and then with that, I'm thinking of, you know,

00:47:26 the Apostle Paul, you know, one of the things he says in Romans 11, and elsewhere also, he mentions

00:47:31 that part of, you know, he says, I'll no longer go to the Jews, and again, he's speaking in this

00:47:35 context of ethnic Jews, according to the flesh, I'm no longer going to go to them, I love them, 0.99

00:47:40 I'd be willing to go to hell, cut off, for the sake of my kinsmen, you know, and so he loves them, 1.00

00:47:44 but he's, I'm not going to go to them anymore because they're not listening. They've rejected 0.78

00:47:48 Christ and they're rejecting me. And so he's this apostle appointed to the Gentiles, but part of his 0.95

00:47:54 hope and aim is that he loves the Gentiles and wants to see their own eternal heavenly good come

00:47:59 about through his gospel preaching ministry, but also as a happy bonus that as he ministers among 0.65

00:48:05 the Gentiles, that the Jews might be provoked to a godly sense of jealousy, that they would see

00:48:10 their God actually blessing, you know, like I think of like Hosea, you know, like those who

00:48:18 are not my people will be called my people, you know? And so they would see this and say,

00:48:21 wait a second, that was ours. What have we done? You know, and that I, you know, I was thinking

00:48:27 about this the other day, it almost seems as though in 80s, so then Paul does it, he shifts 0.93

00:48:31 gears and you see even in the book of Acts, the epicenter shifts from Peter and the Jewish

00:48:35 apostles, in the center being Jerusalem, and then about Acts 15, literally like clockwork,

00:48:41 halfway through, it shifts from Peter in Jerusalem to Paul in Antioch, and it shifts to primarily

00:48:46 ministry among Gentiles, and then we've got Paul with a good, just from his writing of Romans,

00:48:52 and not all the ministry he's already done before that among the Gentiles, so a good couple of

00:48:56 decades, two, three decades, ministering among the Gentiles, again, in this interim period,

00:49:01 right so you the inauguration of the new covenant that's uh would you date that at

00:49:05 pentecost or the resurrection uh yes um perfect great both so so you know so so there we have

00:49:13 amen so there we have the beginning of the new covenant and then and then we have the rolling

00:49:17 up like a garment the completion like at that point the old covenant is um in every theological

00:49:22 sense done but there is still that's you know there is still this overhang um and and so and

00:49:29 And so then, you know, but then God in his providence, he sees fit that there's a finality

00:49:34 of completion to the old covenant in 87.

00:49:37 So you have a 40 year, give or take, interim period.

00:49:41 And during that time, that's when Paul's writing about halfway in between there, maybe on the 0.97

00:49:45 latter second half, but halfway in between this 40 year long, a whole generation in Jewish 0.80

00:49:50 terms of where Paul is saying, okay, forget the Jews. 1.00

00:49:55 I love them, but they won't listen. 1.00

00:49:57 They rejected Christ.

00:49:58 They're rejecting me. 1.00

00:50:00 I'm going to go to the Gentiles. 1.00

00:50:01 And as God pours out his blessing among the Gentiles 0.98

00:50:05 and gathers in the fullness of Gentiles in the known world at the time, 0.92

00:50:08 and that that actually happened,

00:50:10 there was a fullness of the Gentiles streaming in to Christ in faith

00:50:15 through the ministry of Paul and other ministers.

00:50:18 And that actually, we're saying, you're saying, 0.78

00:50:20 that that actually did provoke the Jews, 0.56

00:50:23 especially when AD 70 hit. 0.92

00:50:25 Because Jesus said, this generation won't pass away.

00:50:27 in a literal sense, not just this type of generation, but these people, some of you will

00:50:32 die, but there will be many of you still living where you see me come on the clouds. And that's

00:50:37 not cherubim, baby angels playing harps, but like clouds being judgment language. Think Joel chapter

00:50:43 two, billows of smoke. And so boom, you've got Titus, the sacking of the temple, not one stone,

00:50:50 the greatest prophecy arguably ever made by Christ himself, not one stone. And I think of this,

00:50:56 Tell me if you think I'm off here, but I think of the Roman soldier who, after Jesus died, he's going, he's breaking the legs of the criminals on either side of Jesus, and he comes to the Christ, and instead of breaking his legs, he realizes he's already dead, and he pierces his side with a spear and outflow the stream of water and blood, and he says, surely, this was the Son of God.

00:51:17 And I'm just imagining Jews, and again, speaking ethnically, ethnic Jews in 80, 70, Christ spiritually coming.

00:51:24 He's seated in his glorified body at the right hand of the Father, ascended, but a spiritual parousia, a coming of Christ on the clouds.

00:51:32 Josephus even said dozens of eyewitnesses that saw like silhouettes, like chariots of fire in the clouds and smoke from all the rubble.

00:51:40 Jewish people actually bearing eyewitness to seeing this event. 0.83

00:51:43 And I'm thinking, like, this Roman guy pierces Jesus' side and says, oh, man, we done messed up, A.A. Ron. 0.75

00:51:49 Like, this was the Son of God. 0.87

00:51:51 And I'm thinking, if this is the same generation 40 years later, they heard from Jesus' own mouth this prophecy,

00:51:57 and Paul has been already ministering among the Gentiles for a good 15, 20, 25, 30 years.

00:52:03 God's pouring out his blessing there.

00:52:05 The blessing has been drying up for a couple decades among the Jews because of the rejection of Christ and his apostles. 0.96

00:52:11 and then the the cherry on top the sprinkles on top is is they start seeing chariots go back and 0.91

00:52:18 forth silhouettes like shadows in the clouds the temple exactly like jesus said not one stone left

00:52:24 on top of it and i'm thinking i bet you a lot of those guys said like the roman soldier did 40

00:52:29 years prior they probably said oh we done messed up surely this was the son of god and probably

00:52:34 came to faith yeah and yeah i agree and even before that like as you know it took you know

00:52:41 the rebellion started in like 80, 66 or 67. Like it, it,

00:52:45 it took several years for, 1.00

00:52:46 for the Romans to make their way down and devastate the place.

00:52:49 And so as this is unfolding and developing and the apostles are still

00:52:54 ministering and preaching, or at least the, the, the churches,

00:52:57 many of them are dead at this point. And the spirit is at work in these

00:53:03 churches and among the Gentiles and they're seeing it.

00:53:05 And then the back of their heads, they have to think, Oh, this,

00:53:09 this prophet jesus said this was going to happen exactly and we need to repent you know like and

00:53:16 so i i think that's that's that's how it it sets up right in throughout the whole new testament you

00:53:21 see this and it's it's one of those things where you have like the theological liberals that where

00:53:27 they look at the parousia passages in the new testament and the the imminence language and it's 0.99

00:53:34 like well these dumb uh stupid people they thought jesus was going to come back and he didn't 0.99

00:53:39 and therefore that's what atheists say everything yeah exactly that's what christopher hitchens 1.00

00:53:44 literally said with doug wilson right yeah with the debate and and he was he wasn't prepared for

00:53:49 it because doug is actually post-millennial it's like actually there's a really simple answer to

00:53:53 that it did come back yeah he did come back uh he did come he's taken it back and he has no idea

00:53:57 what to say at that point and really as post-millennials i think the best position is we

00:54:01 need to understand comings plural perusias that like that uh every time someone's converted it

00:54:07 is christ coming yeah it is christ coming that the ministry of the uh the ministry of the holy

00:54:12 spirit indwelling the person the believer now um because of the indwelling ministry of the holy

00:54:17 spirit who lives to exude the spirit of the risen christ christ is still in the glorified sense he

00:54:22 is seated at the right hand of god the father almighty but the spirit of the risen christ

00:54:26 through the ministry, indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit, comes to the person. So we can

00:54:31 theologically accurately say, Jesus is in my heart. That's a true statement. And so every time,

00:54:38 my point is, that's just one example of just in conversion alone, salvation. Every time someone's

00:54:41 born again, Jesus comes. It's a parousia. It is the coming. So we have Jesus coming in the incarnation. 1.00

00:54:47 We have Jesus, his comings in salvation, in conversion. We had his coming in AD 70. And

00:54:55 We're not hyper-preterist. We believe he will come again in the physical glorified flesh for the final culmination of all human history, the resurrection of the dead, both the wicked and the righteous, and that's still in our future.

00:55:10 But that's pretty much all that's in our future. There's a lot that's in our past.

00:55:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 100% agree. And some of it too is I think people, they don't recognize the coming of the Lord in wrath. And you see this all throughout the Old Testament when God comes in judgment, right? The day of the Lord comes to Jerusalem in 586 BC, right? And that's presented by the prophets as the coming of the Lord.

00:55:39 And so it isn't like, oh, you're using this slippery metaphorical language to try to shoehorn this in.

00:55:47 It's like, no, this is biblical language.

00:55:49 This is how God has spoken about his coming is he came, but it was Nebuchadnezzar that he sent, just as Jesus sent Titus to come and destroy Jerusalem.

00:56:03 There are individual comings in conversion, but you're saying there are also corporate comings, but still geographically centered.

00:56:11 Like in a sense, I'm thinking even the three men that appeared to Abraham and one of them, the angel of the Lord, coming in regards to the judgment of Sodom.

00:56:19 So there's a coming that is, we would say that's a theophany, that's Christ, like the fourth man in the furnace with Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego.

00:56:29 So Christ has come many, many times, but when we look at the end of Revelation, we would

00:56:36 say this coming, it's in the flesh, and it's also global.

00:56:43 It's a universal coming.

00:56:45 But that's what's so helpful when you look at some of the post-millennial, partial preterist

00:56:50 interpretations of Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is why is Jesus telling people to run?

00:56:56 because if we're talking about the end,

00:56:58 his final coming that's a global universal coming,

00:57:01 there's nowhere to run.

00:57:02 There is nowhere to run.

00:57:03 But when Jesus is talking about Matthew 24,

00:57:06 he's saying when this happens,

00:57:08 don't go back and get your cloak.

00:57:10 Well, why?

00:57:10 Because you need to be quick.

00:57:12 Well, why be quick?

00:57:13 It seems like it's futile.

00:57:15 No, if you're quick enough,

00:57:16 you actually could escape it

00:57:17 because it's a local, regional judgment.

00:57:21 And here's the tragedy,

00:57:23 and this is part of our larger conversation here

00:57:25 with dispensationalism, but part of the tragedy, as you know, Andrew, you and I both know,

00:57:29 there were so many Christians, dispensational Christians, who were, again, salt of the earth,

00:57:33 wonderful people, love the Lord, but because they've been wrongly educated in this particular

00:57:39 subject, Jesus also says, what are those who have children or are with child in those days?

00:57:45 And he's talking about this local judgment that's going to happen in a place and time in 8070 for

00:57:50 Israel. But if you read that as something that's being in our future, and you think it's a future 0.58

00:57:56 that's going to happen next Thursday, and you saw the news this past Saturday, and you're a well-meaning

00:58:02 Christian woman who's 25 and just got married, you literally might be tempted with your husband

00:58:06 to think, you know what, we probably shouldn't have kids. Better not have kids. Yeah, better 0.98

00:58:11 not have kids. And the same thing with like Paul in 1 Corinthians 7, where it's like, you know,

00:58:16 because of the coming distress well what is what is that you know where he says you know maybe you

00:58:21 shouldn't marry and have kids because of the coming distress and people apply it the same way

00:58:25 and they think well you know the end times are coming and i better not have kids um right and

00:58:30 so you see this play out and this is what's happened um largely and in you know conservative

00:58:37 evangelicalism is these fears of the end times being around the corner causes people to to

00:58:43 operate in this way um and it it's yeah it's it bears um really awful fruit and and so i'm very

00:58:52 thankful for the inconsistent uh dispensationalists that uh that still have kids and and uh and still

00:58:58 building the kingdom of god yeah that's right and there are a lot of them praise god there there are

00:59:02 some pre-mill dispensational guys who man they like they're fighting and some and sometimes i'll

00:59:08 just be honest and confess sometimes they're fighting better than post-mill guys because

00:59:11 post-mill guys will they'll be hopeful but here's the the sneak how they get sneaky they say uh we're

00:59:16 gonna win it's not just christ winning despite a losing church it's christ winning through his

00:59:21 body the church that's gonna happen in 50 000 years yeah you know what i mean and and they

00:59:26 don't do anything you know it's the yeah it's the meme where it's like i mean yeah and i i've said

00:59:30 this before like it's the meme of you know step one step two step three question mark step four

00:59:36 profit. And it's like, that's, that's a lot of the, the post-millennial, you know, attitude from,

00:59:42 from many is, well, I could just sit on my hands. I don't have to do anything. Really. The most

00:59:46 important thing is worship. And I'm a pastor. I care deeply about worship and worship being

00:59:51 faithful, but that's like one step. There are other steps that we have to take. We have to do

00:59:56 things. We have to operate. Yeah. We would say it's the most important. We would say it's the

01:00:00 tip of the spear. Like the planting churches, that is the beachhead. That's Normandy. That's

01:00:04 We would say it is the most important, but it's not the only thing.

01:00:09 So the first thing that I did when I moved to Texas was plant a church.

01:00:12 Next thing we're working on doing, school.

01:00:14 Other things that we're doing, men are running for local office and starting businesses,

01:00:18 and we're popping out babies. 1.00

01:00:20 And when I say we, I mean the women are doing that. 1.00

01:00:22 But we don't just preach the gospel.

01:00:27 And people, man, they take that and they run with that and they misrepresent.

01:00:31 It's here.

01:00:31 It's never, ever, ever anything less than preaching the gospel.

01:00:35 It can't be less.

01:00:37 Yeah, that's the foundational thing, but it's not the, we just do that and then stop.

01:00:42 The gospel has fruit.

01:00:43 The gospel has fruit.

01:00:44 Precisely.

01:00:45 It does.

01:00:45 Absolutely.

01:00:46 Okay, so we've talked about the, you know, so there are no more land promises for Israel.

01:00:50 And we've talked about that Jesus really did come in AD 70, just like he said he did.

01:00:55 And it's not a global coming.

01:00:56 he didn't come in the flesh but he spiritually came to a local region um and he came on cloud

01:01:02 signifying judgment and we're still awaiting a final coming of the glorify christ coming um in

01:01:08 a global sense to all the earth but there is a sense in which christ did come and that was the

01:01:13 finality the finishing of this old covenant so this intermediate period between the new covenant

01:01:18 has begun the old covenant is winding down well now the old covenant is completely done

01:01:22 there is no covenant and titus is destroying the temple he's destroying now you know this more than

01:01:29 me tell me if i'm wrong but he's destroying the the records even birth records and lineage yes so

01:01:34 all the all the stuff that you would need in order to restart it right you need i mean you need in

01:01:39 order to have your judaism and the old covenant you need to have high priest and there's no there's

01:01:45 no way you can recover any of those things i mean that's the other thing too is like if you if you

01:01:49 wanted it you couldn't do it even if you wanted it um you need to have you need to have a high

01:01:54 priest that's descended from zadok and of course the irony too in the second temple period is that

01:02:00 none of the high priests were descended from zadok they were they're brought in by the hasmonians and

01:02:05 so they're you know they're they don't have a legitimate high priest anyway and this is part 0.58

01:02:10 of i think what um is incurring all this judgment on this this generation this perverse generation

01:02:16 that jesus talks about and and and it's it's interesting you know i just preached on on acts

01:02:22 chapter two this last sunday and peter picks up that same language in his speech at pentecost

01:02:28 where he's preaching to the jews and saying you killed jesus you killed him you did this and

01:02:34 they're all cut to the heart and this jesus whom you crucify yeah he was sent for you he was sent

01:02:40 to the lost sheep of israel and you killed him and and they all like well what can we do now 0.82

01:02:45 And you can imagine being in their shoes thinking, well, he's just going to come destroy us now.

01:02:51 What do we do?

01:02:52 And he says, repent and be baptized, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that's just poured out on Peter.

01:02:59 And then Luke says that he said a whole bunch of other stuff that we're not told.

01:03:04 But the thing that Luke records is escape this perverse generation.

01:03:09 He picks up the exact same language as Jesus used repeatedly in the Gospels, saying that there's something unique about that particular generation, that they were extremely wicked, that – I mean, Jesus would talk about this, and he says the men from Sodom, right, the worst place in the Bible, they'll rise up in – yeah, they would have repented, and they will rise up at the resurrection. 0.65

01:03:30 No, Nineveh. The men of Nineveh will rise up, right? 0.90

01:03:33 Both. He uses both. 0.99

01:03:33 Oh, he says both. You're right.

01:03:35 Sodom and Nineveh. 0.60

01:03:35 Wow.

01:03:36 but he says about like they'll rise up and condemn you condemn this generation because

01:03:40 you're so wicked and um and as and why well because jesus appears to them and they reject him

01:03:47 right god himself appears and they said we don't want you and he appears not just he doesn't just 0.96

01:03:52 show up but he proves it with signs and wonders no not good enough right what are you tired and

01:03:57 sidon right for the miracles that i've been performing had been performed in sodom and

01:04:02 more they would have repented they would have repented like yeah yeah and so it's it's it's

01:04:07 also interesting uh yeah sorry to interrupt you there joel uh no go ahead the um right the sign

01:04:13 of jonah that jesus talks about isn't just merely that he's going to be in the grave for three days

01:04:17 and three nights like jonah's in the belly of the beast sign of jonah is i mean you look at the

01:04:22 context of the book of jonah the reason jonah doesn't want to go to nineveh is because he

01:04:27 knows that God is going to save the Ninevites, even though the only message is, hey, in 40 days,

01:04:33 you're going to get nuked, right? He knows that you're a gracious God, you're relenting. And why

01:04:37 are you sending me to these people? Because Jonah knows the book of Deuteronomy. He knows the

01:04:41 promises in Deuteronomy that God is going to go to other nations. And that's how you know that he

01:04:48 is done with Israel and he is going to send you into exile and destroy you. And that's why Jonah 0.81

01:04:52 wouldn't go, right? That's why, not because, you know, not because he was worried about getting

01:04:57 hit by fish or whatever veggie tail says right but because but because he knows that this is bad

01:05:02 for israel it's bad for his people because god's so he's trying to like weasel out of god's judgment

01:05:07 coming on yeah i just preached jonah one two weeks ago and i said the same thing is jonah jonah did

01:05:13 not uh refuse to go to nineveh because he was afraid they would not listen and therefore uh

01:05:19 harm him they were afraid that they would uh that they would listen and that jonah knew that god

01:05:26 has a soft spot for repentance. And he literally says, is this not, Jonah chapter 4, is this not

01:05:32 what I told you when I was yet in my own country, why I made haste to go to Tarshish?

01:05:38 I knew you to be a gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love, and he says,

01:05:43 and relenting in sending disaster. And so he's like, I didn't want to go to Nineveh because,

01:05:49 not because they might not listen to my message of repentance and turn on the messenger and kill 0.85

01:05:54 me, no, I was afraid they would listen to my message of repentance, and that they would

01:05:58 repent, and that you would forgive them, and that that would be a further sign of judgment

01:06:03 on Israel, because here's Nineveh, which is a capital city of Israel, Assyria, it's at

01:06:09 war, they're already ramping up, and this is in fulfillment of Isaiah's prior prophecies,

01:06:15 which Jonah knows, and so Isaiah said, this is going to happen, and Jonah was like a peacetime

01:06:20 prophet, one of the only ones where he's like, he prophesied the expansion of the borders

01:06:24 of, you know, from here to there.

01:06:26 And it happened.

01:06:27 And so, you know, and so people are really excited. 0.69

01:06:29 Like Israel's kind of, it feels like a heyday, you know, but you still have this looming

01:06:33 prior prophecies of Isaiah overshadowing Israel.

01:06:37 And then all of a sudden Jonah with his own eyes sees the pre-invasion attacks of Assyria

01:06:42 to the north coming down into the kingdom of the northern kingdoms of Israel where Jonah

01:06:47 lived and Gath Heffer.

01:06:48 uh heifer and he's like no no no no no no you know and i can only imagine him being like couldn't

01:06:55 this happen like once once you know in a generation after me this you're gonna yeah it's gonna happen

01:07:00 now so yeah there's a lot going on with jonah yeah and so yeah so when when jesus is invoking

01:07:05 jonah and the sign of jonah he's not just talking about um being in the whale uh or and he's not

01:07:11 just talking about um you know going to nineveh this wicked city and them repenting and and 0.69

01:07:17 condemning israel he's he's saying the the exact same process is going to play out with that 0.99

01:07:23 perverse generation of israel that he is going to go to a nation to the gentiles to the nation that 0.97

01:07:29 it's that doesn't know him and he's going to forgive them they're going to repent and that's 0.99

01:07:34 a sign that the the promises of deuteronomy that are still applicable right um god brings them back

01:07:40 like they played out those promises of deuteronomy they're going to be exiled and kicked out of the

01:07:44 and vomited out of the land. Those are still valid for Israel in Jesus' generation. And so 0.98

01:07:52 Jesus is saying that this last couple chapters of Deuteronomy, these curses and exile and death

01:08:00 and destruction, that's going to come to you. That's going to happen. And that's always the

01:08:05 other thing when people are like, no, the old covenant still exists in some aspect in some way.

01:08:09 And it's like, well, it's, it's a conditional covenant. It isn't, it isn't, um, yep. You're

01:08:16 always going to have this land forever. No matter what you do, right. No matter what you do,

01:08:21 you're always going to have it. Um, it's no, you need to follow my law. You need to not commit

01:08:26 idolatry. You need to not, you know, kill my son when I send him, um, and, and then kill, 0.99

01:08:31 um, try to kill the Holy spirit and the apostles when, when they come, um, like that, that's what 0.96

01:08:37 happened right they they did those things they committed this idolatry there's the worst 0.97

01:08:42 generation that israel ever had is what jesus is saying and judgment came right and even in that 0.97

01:08:48 even in that god is gracious to this faithful remnant that he draws out of israel and incorporates

01:08:54 into his church right that's that's what's happening in the new testament that god is

01:08:59 gracious to these people and you know he forgives them for i mean that's what's happening when

01:09:04 at pentecost when peter preaches the the sin against the son that was forgiven

01:09:08 but for the 40 years right they're sinning against the holy spirit and that ultimately was not

01:09:15 forgiven and how was it not forgiven israel is destroyed the temple is destroyed the whole 0.73

01:09:20 the whole that generation and you know that was it it was done right so that's what that means

01:09:26 too like whenever any anytime anyone's confused about well did i sin against the holy spirit the

01:09:31 unforgivable sin. And it's like, it's like, well, no, that's, that's about that. That's

01:09:36 what's happening there. Yeah. Good job on that. That's really helpful. So with that, you know,

01:09:41 I'm going to be teaching the book of Ezra soon. My idea was I was going to teach Joshua and all

01:09:46 the relevancies and stuff, you know, taking the land. So we're, you know, drawing out some of

01:09:51 the applications of the founding of America and those kinds of things. Not that the book is

01:09:55 explicitly about that, but drawing out some of the relevant, you know, applicable things.

01:09:58 You're going to draw all the haters from that.

01:10:00 Right, I know.

01:10:01 So we finished Joshua, and there were plenty of haters.

01:10:04 Not my local, my local church is just wonderful.

01:10:07 That's just some of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

01:10:10 But online, plenty of haters.

01:10:12 But then Ezra, I'm thinking, well, that's really relevant.

01:10:15 You know, not just like the founding of America, but rebuilding the rubble.

01:10:18 And now as I'm preparing for that, though, you know, one of the things that I just, you know, I couldn't ignore was just, you know, in Ezra, it talks about, you know, this project of rebuilding.

01:10:28 the temple and rebuilding Jerusalem, but there's a criteria, and I'm thinking about, you know,

01:10:33 behold, I am the Lord, I changeth not, you know, so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed,

01:10:37 same yesterday, today, and forever, his immutable standards, his law is not arbitrary, you know,

01:10:41 I'm thinking of all these things, and especially in the Old Testament, right, because, you know,

01:10:46 Ezra, it's, you know, so anyways, all that being said, there's, there is a criteria, there's so

01:10:52 many people that when all of a sudden they're funded to go back and rebuild the temple in

01:10:57 jerusalem um all these people want to be a part of it you know and and understandably so there's

01:11:02 an excitement and buzz in the air and tragically many of them are sent away and they're sent away

01:11:07 because they can't prove their lineage they don't have uh the the birth certificates they don't have

01:11:12 the documented proof to be able to prove that there actually is israel according to the flesh

01:11:18 ethnic israel and and for those um that aren't able to say we are actually ethnic israel and

01:11:24 it's documented it's not like well i feel like a jew you know it's like no like i actually you

01:11:28 know what i mean like yeah um yeah and and sadly so a lot of them are sent away and only those who

01:11:33 could prove their lineage are able to rebuild the temple and i was just thinking about that and just

01:11:38 thinking like if that's the standard and god's immutable in his standard and he's the same

01:11:44 yesterday today and forever more he never changes who would be able to rebuild the temple today even

01:11:50 if dispensationalism was true even if it was true and the temple mountain is secured and there's

01:11:54 this project to rebuild the temple who would be able to in the days of ezra you know a ton of

01:12:00 people were sent away because they couldn't prove it today 2 000 years removed from the the you know

01:12:05 and they were already getting off track during the generation of of israel at the time of christ

01:12:10 which is why there's such severe judgment so you're already like like a couple you know a few

01:12:15 centuries way off track even at the time of christ then you've got 2 000 years later and and

01:12:20 then talmudic judaism doesn't even come in until you know like third fourth century and you've got

01:12:24 this like 200 something years of just this gap and you don't know who like seriously by god's

01:12:29 standard by god's standard who would be allowed to build the temple today yeah that's exactly

01:12:36 exactly that's a great that's exactly it exactly it nobody you know i mean maybe they would say

01:12:42 well we can do dna tests and that'll be good enough but it's like that's not that's not what

01:12:47 the standard was uh you know like you can't you can't you can't prove your even what would a dna

01:12:52 test prove like how would what what would that you know like when somebody says i'm irish

01:12:58 right we're not like we're not denying that there are groups of people but when if if somebody says

01:13:05 i'm irish a lot of times what they mean is no no dude like my my grandparents grew up in ireland

01:13:11 you know it's like oh it's like well i have red hair i can see a picture of them standing by this

01:13:17 you know structure in iris you know what i mean like they're not like that's different the person's

01:13:21 not saying i am pure blood irish for the last 2 000 years yeah so like when somebody says i'm

01:13:26 from scotland it could be for the last 200 years but 2 000 years is a really long time and it's

01:13:32 very difficult to track yeah yeah a hundred percent no it is and and and it's the other

01:13:37 difficulty is that, you know, how do you, how do you isolate it? You know, how do you isolate it

01:13:42 based on, because you, you have all sorts of people who have, you know, various gradations

01:13:47 of, of, you know, descend, you know, uh, descent from Abraham that is not, is not from Jacob,

01:13:54 you know? So how, I mean, so all of these things, it's, it's, it's so convoluted and, and, and such

01:13:59 a mess and it's just tough. Yeah. And so it's, it's, yeah, it is. And, and so I look at it and

01:14:05 it's like, no, these are not like, you need to, you need to think about it biblically. Like these

01:14:09 are not the same people that the Bible is talking about, right? These are not, they're not under the

01:14:14 same, they're not under the same promises and covenant that God has made. And so you can't

01:14:20 look at it like, oh, some aspects of the old covenant are retained in, in some mysterious way

01:14:27 and they're being kept off to the side. Um, no, they, they're a nation like, like any other,

01:14:33 like you say, like Brazil or Uganda or whatever.

01:14:37 They're a nation that needs to repent and believe

01:14:41 and submit to Jesus.

01:14:42 And we love them.

01:14:44 And we love them by calling them to repentance 1.00

01:14:47 just like we would any other Gentile nation. 1.00

01:14:49 But I love that you brought,

01:14:50 that's so helpful to bring covenant into it

01:14:52 because we talked about the ethnic aspect

01:14:54 and to play the devil's advocate,

01:14:55 as I've had conversations with friends

01:14:57 and things like that,

01:14:58 we're working through these things

01:14:59 and studying these things

01:15:00 and guys like James B. Jordan,

01:15:02 you know, but then alongside David Chilton and hearing both views and, and, and recognizing

01:15:06 both are, are, I think, reasonable positions that a Christian could hold.

01:15:10 Absolutely.

01:15:10 But, you know, and, and so, but as I, you know, studying through it with some of the

01:15:14 men in my church and just looking at some of these things and trying to be objective,

01:15:17 you know, we, we think like, well, okay, you know, you've got Rahab in the, in the genealogy

01:15:21 of Jesus and you've got Ruth.

01:15:23 But, but again, it's just like, okay, but, but if Rahab enters in, then boom, all of 0.87

01:15:27 a sudden her, you know, her children are 50% Jewish, you know, and then, but, but a few 0.87

01:15:31 generations later, we're back up to 98.6%, you know? And then here comes, you know, Ruth and

01:15:36 it's like, okay, now we're down to like 48 something, you know, but then it's multiple

01:15:39 generations again. And then you hit Jesus. It's like, Jesus is 99.3% Jewish. All right. The dude's

01:15:44 a Jew. I'm good with that. You know, that's like 99.3% Jew. Okay. But that's not what we're talking 1.00

01:15:50 about. We're not talking about, you know, because people use that as an example to say, well,

01:15:53 Jesus had Gentiles even in his lineage, you know, and like, and he's the root of Jesse. And it's 0.77

01:15:58 But we're not talking about two Gentiles over the course of, like, 1,500 years. 0.84

01:16:06 Yeah. 0.91

01:16:07 Yeah.

01:16:07 You know what I mean?

01:16:11 Yeah. 0.80

01:16:11 We're not talking 1,500 years pure Jewish bloodline with the exception of two Gentiles.

01:16:17 We're talking 2,000 years where nobody, which we don't even know.

01:16:24 You know what I mean?

01:16:24 And so that's just radically different.

01:16:26 Yeah.

01:16:26 And on top of that, like you have, like the law is set up that way where, you know, different, different peoples that you, for, you know, X number of generations, you're, you're outside of the assembly until, um, until like the fourth or fifth generation or the 10th generation in, in, in other cases.

01:16:44 And so, um, but then you're incorporated in, right.

01:16:48 Then you're, then you are treated as though you're 100%. 0.74

01:16:52 You are a Jew. 0.98

01:16:54 A Jew. 1.00

01:16:54 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0.87

01:16:55 So, or 100% Israelite, depending on, you know, which part of the covenant, you know, which time frame you're in. And so anyway, like it, the law deals with all of that, right? It deals with all those things all and, you know.

01:17:25 can anybody hear him on the stream or we just completely frozen right now

01:17:33 all right then i'm just going to pick back up until we can get andrew back so

01:17:38 that's the ethnic side but what i wanted to bring up that andrew was alluding to is also

01:17:43 the covenantal side because it's not just the issue of blood but there's also the issue of

01:17:48 covenant and this is i think one of the simplest ways that i could say that would be helpful for

01:17:51 the listener. Again, this was James B. Jordan. I was reading him on this particular topic. Andrew's

01:17:58 hopping back in. But one of the things that I read is it's probably a somewhat helpful comparison

01:18:03 when we think of today's Judaism, namely Talmudic Judaism, to compare that. Today's Talmudic

01:18:10 Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism in the same way that Mormonism is to Christianity. I'll say 0.98

01:18:16 that again. Today's Talmudic Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism, biblical Judaism, in the same 0.98

01:18:25 way that Mormonism is to Christianity. And what I mean by that is that it's not as though Jews 0.92

01:18:31 today simply have the Torah, which would be the Old Testament that both Christians hold as well,

01:18:37 the sacred scripture, but that there's another book that's been written in order to function

01:18:43 as a lens in interpreting the Old Testament, the Torah. So you have the Torah, but then you have

01:18:49 this, the Talmud, you know, and in the same way that a Mormon would say, oh yeah, we're Christian

01:18:53 too, you know? And on that point, even dispensational Christians, we're going to be

01:18:58 real quick to say, no, sir, no, you're not. You're Mormon. There's a difference. You're not Christian

01:19:03 because you have the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon is being placed over the New Testament, 0.94

01:19:09 over the Bible as a lens that reinterprets and ultimately twists and perverts the Bible.

01:19:17 So the Book of Mormon isn't really in addition to the Bible. It actually cancels out the Bible.

01:19:23 So too, the Talmud, it functions in a way that reinterprets and twists and cancels out

01:19:30 the Torah, the Old Testament. And so when we speak of Jews today, not even from an ethnic sense,

01:19:36 We've already covered that, but now talking about Jews today in a covenantal sense, Talmudic

01:19:41 Judaism is to biblical Old Testament Judaism in the same way that Mormonism is to Christianity.

01:19:49 That is to say, no relation, no relation, meaning not that it's not a covenant. 0.52

01:19:55 It can still be covenantal, but it is another covenant. 0.92

01:19:58 It's not a covenant with Yahweh as the Jews had in the Old Testament, but when it comes 0.51

01:20:03 to talmudic judaism i would say that it is a covenant in biblical terms it is a covenant with 0.92

01:20:09 satan it is a covenant with beelzebub it is a demonic covenant that talmudic judaism is it is

01:20:16 a doctrine of demons it is not christian and it's also not old testament judaism it's simply not

01:20:23 and so again uh that doesn't mean that this is you know the worst people on the planet just like 0.91

01:20:29 Islam is a Christian heresy. 0.99

01:20:31 So what do we do with Muslims? 1.00

01:20:35 Do we go and say, well, you guys are close enough? 1.00

01:20:38 You know, like, no, we go to them.

01:20:40 We say, you believe in a doctrine of demons. 0.97

01:20:43 The Quran is a doctrine of demons. 0.98

01:20:45 And you must repent of your false doctrine 0.99

01:20:48 and you must repent of your sin

01:20:49 and you must believe upon the gospel

01:20:51 of the Lord Jesus Christ.

01:20:53 And so too, we would say to Jews today,

01:20:55 Talmudic Jews, we would say, 1.00

01:20:57 it's a doctrine of demons. 1.00

01:20:58 it's a false gospel it's it's it's it's a heresy and and you must repent of your false doctrine

01:21:05 repent of your sin and believe upon the lord jesus christ and there is a covenant there but it's not

01:21:10 the covenant that abraham had this is a whole other covenant it's not a covenant with god and

01:21:16 it's not the covenant that abraham had this is a separate covenant so at the ethnic level and at

01:21:21 the covenantal level we we've got to recognize that there's a massive gap here that the lord

01:21:26 in his providence. And according to his sovereign will and plan in 80, 70, he wrapped things up.

01:21:32 There was finality. He closed the old covenant. He wrapped it up. He ended it. And what we have

01:21:39 going on today is not that. There's still people made in the image of God with dignity that we

01:21:45 should love, that we should preach the gospel to, but there are no land promises. And I think that

01:21:52 it at least has to be held as a permissible view. I'm not even saying it's right, but I think it at

01:21:59 least needs to be viewed within the realm of Christian orthodoxy as a permissible view that

01:22:05 Romans 11, even in the spiritual sense of Israel being gathered into Christ, was fulfilled in a

01:22:12 preterist mentality in AD 70. And that now it's simply the promise of life from the dead that

01:22:19 Israel has been brought in, and now it's just life from the dead that we have all the nations

01:22:25 coming to Christ and that Israel should be counted as simply one of those nations, not special, 0.93

01:22:30 not different. So I think that has to at least be considered a permissible view. David Chilton,

01:22:36 that Romans 11 in the spiritual sense is still in our future, fine. A lot of great brothers hold

01:22:42 that view, but also the preterist view that not only the land promises fulfilled, but the spiritual

01:22:47 promises as well. I think that we have to at least be able to say that without being called

01:22:54 anti-Semitic. We have to at least be able to say that without saying, I have no hatred in my heart,

01:22:59 I want to preach the gospel to all people, but I just think that this is a viable theological view

01:23:08 within Christian orthodoxy. So, Andrew, I know that you got dropped. I've been trying to complete

01:23:14 our conversation. So I don't know how much of it you heard, but basically I was just shifting from,

01:23:20 okay, we talked about ethnic, we talked about Ezra, we talked about rebuilding the temple,

01:23:24 but then I was just trying to switch it to, okay, but what about those who say, okay, well,

01:23:28 the bloodline is not really what matters because of what you cited earlier. You've got plenty of

01:23:33 people who weren't in the bloodline in Old Testament Israel. And so you're making it about

01:23:38 blood and saying you can't track it. Well, who cares? That's not the issue. Anyways, it's really

01:23:42 about covenant and so what i was trying to do is start that conversation but just saying well but

01:23:47 even at the covenant level isn't this a completely other covenant this is another covenant right yeah

01:23:54 as far as uh the old covenant and the new covenant or no i'm saying as far as whatever covenant there

01:24:00 is among talmudic judaism oh i i would say that that that's not the covenant that god established

01:24:06 with abraham so you can call it covenantal and i because i would say that that islam is covenantal

01:24:11 but I would say there are covenants with God, but there are also covenants with demons. 0.62

01:24:15 Did you hear that? I said there are covenants with God, but there are also covenants with demons.

01:24:21 That it is covenantal, but it's not a covenant that we saw in the Old Testament. It looks like

01:24:26 you're not able to hear me. Hello, testing, testing, check, check, check. He's desperately

01:24:31 trying, folks, but he may not be able to hop on. Can you hear me? You got me? Hello. Let's give it

01:24:38 a couple seconds here. Testing, testing, testing. Check, check, check. Nope, he's gone. All right,

01:24:45 so anyways, that's the big idea, both at the level of ethnicity and at the level of covenant.

01:24:52 We just have to recognize this is separate. This is separate. These are people created in the image

01:24:58 of God. So back to the attacks of Hamas and all these things, atrocious, sinister, evil, we condemn

01:25:04 them, praying for protection, praying for safety. Can you hear me now, Andrew? Again, yeah, sorry

01:25:10 about that. Okay, all right, well then, yeah, let's just, we want to land the plane now here.

01:25:14 I was just trying to shift gears from ethnicity to the issue of covenant. Yeah. So for guys who

01:25:20 would say, well, okay, yeah, you know, it's not the same bloodline, but it never really was about

01:25:24 blood, you know, in the Old Testament, and it's still, you know, this is still Israel according

01:25:29 to covenant. And I think, I would say, well, this is a covenant, but it's a completely separate 0.87

01:25:35 covenant. And it's not a covenant with Yahweh. It's not the Abrahamic covenant. This is, I think

01:25:40 that this is a covenant with demons. What I would say about, you know, Islam, for instance, I would 1.00

01:25:46 say that there is a covenant of sorts, but that's not a covenant with God. That is, it's false. It's 1.00

01:25:52 wrong yeah i would agree i think uh i think you're exactly right that it's not this same covenant

01:25:58 it's it's a different one right if there even is one right it's it's some quasi covenantal

01:26:06 arrangement but it is not um it's it's not the same one that god made right because they're

01:26:12 they're not operating the same circumstances not operating the same way and so and and and

01:26:16 are they worshiping the same god well no because that god is triune and he's revealed himself

01:26:21 to the world um as as the triangle he's revealed the son you know hebrews talks about the last days

01:26:27 he's spoken to us by his son right and so that's that's where the covenant is that's where god is

01:26:33 that's where where belief and faith is and so that's you're exactly right there is no you know

01:26:38 kind of sort of covenant hanging out out there outside of where god is um so yeah that's how we

01:26:46 have to understand it that these are not the same people when you're reading the bible and you read

01:26:50 about moses and abraham and david right that those that's our heritage because we're the sons of

01:26:56 faith right it's not it's not the sons according to the flesh that get to claim them so that's

01:27:03 that's imperative that we understand that yep all right any final thoughts like so bringing it back

01:27:10 to you know the the that's what i was trying to do and we kept trying you know missing you trying

01:27:14 to pick you back up i was trying to finally land the plane so all these things being said so now

01:27:18 we got the current event piece, we got the theological piece, but now landing back on

01:27:23 the current event. So now let's take the theology and apply it to the current event. I was just

01:27:27 saying that, you know, with these guerrilla warfare and attacks from Hamas and Islamic 0.86

01:27:31 terrorists, it's atrocious. It's sinister. We are praying for the protection of people made

01:27:37 in the image of God. We're praying that Hamas stops. We're praying that Israel, whatever response

01:27:42 they have, they have a right to defend their own, but that it would be reasoned and it would be

01:27:45 ethical, with a response that they wouldn't use it as an excuse to overreact. We're praying for

01:27:50 the rest of the world, our country included, that it would de-escalate and that it wouldn't be,

01:27:54 that the West wouldn't constantly be getting involved more than it needs to on the other

01:28:01 side of the planet. So as Christians, in light of everything we've said about a biblical lens

01:28:08 and viewing those in Israel today that this is not the biblical Jews,

01:28:16 but these are people created in the image of God.

01:28:18 It is a nation state.

01:28:19 It has sovereign borders.

01:28:20 It has the right to self-defense.

01:28:22 There's no hatred in our hearts or anything like that.

01:28:25 What would you say, bringing it back to the current event of what's happening right now,

01:28:29 how should we pray?

01:28:30 How should we think?

01:28:31 How should we encourage one another as Christians?

01:28:35 Yeah, I think, I mean, it's something where if we take out the dispensational element, right, and this idea that, no, this is the special, holy, chosen land that we need to be praying for.

01:28:48 We need to pray for the peace of Jerusalem because those are God's people.

01:28:51 If we just take that out of the equation and you look at it like, I mean, you look at anything else, any other military conflict where innocent people are being killed, that's how we should look at it.

01:29:03 where we want there to be peace we wouldn't want innocent people being killed we don't want war we

01:29:07 want we don't want destruction uh we want and we see two groups of people uh largely i mean there

01:29:14 are palestinian christians but it's predominantly muslim right we see two two groups that don't know

01:29:20 the lord jesus christ and these are these are people that need to become christians and if

01:29:25 there's ever going to be permanent lasting peace in that region it will come via the gospel of

01:29:30 of jesus christ amen ultimately amen that's great all right um real quick where can people find your

01:29:37 book boniface option yeah uh just go to bonifaceoption.com uh you'll be able to find it there

01:29:42 or you can search for it on on amazon uh we also have it in the gab store i believe um but uh but

01:29:49 those are those are the best places to find it and uh yeah hopefully hopefully you'll enjoy the

01:29:54 discussion we're gonna have uh and it'll be in person so we don't have to worry about my internet

01:29:58 being attacked um it'll be great i don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but i i do find it

01:30:05 convenient yeah give her the conversation we're having today yeah the regime attacked

01:30:10 my internet because they don't want this to get out that's exactly right that's what that's what

01:30:16 you always have to say whether it's true or not i feel like i think of like cross-politic you know

01:30:20 it's like we got you know we got canceled from this and we need rally and support and then

01:30:24 sometimes i'm like but but but did you or did you just you know did you like oh actually we just

01:30:30 lost this file it wasn't deleted you know a lot of guys you know sometimes it's like it's like

01:30:36 we're under attack conservatives will be like we're under attack and it's like no i think it's

01:30:39 because you're all boomers when it comes to your tech tech you know all right anyways but andrew

01:30:46 thanks so much and i can't wait to see you in a couple weeks and you guys please keep us in your

01:30:50 prayers because we want to produce a really practical, helpful conversation, especially

01:30:55 for young men. Young men are angry, rightfully so, and we want to give them not just platitudes,

01:30:59 but things that we can actually do to have a future for our children and our grandchildren. 0.99

01:31:04 So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you guys again next time.

01:31:20 You

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The NXR Podcast - October 19, 2023

BONUS EPISODE - How Should Christians View Israel？

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