The NXR Podcast - BONUS EPISODE - Jen Wilkin, The Gospel Coalition, & Public School “Debate”

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00:00:40.640 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and I'm doing a quick

00:00:44.700 live video right now. It's Tuesday. I typically don't go live and do videos like this on just a

00:00:51.440 random day of the week, but I couldn't let this one slide. Yesterday, the Gospel Coalition released

00:00:56.720 a good faith debate between Jen Wilkin and Jonathan Pennington, Jen Wilkin and Jonathan

00:01:04.520 Pennington over the topic of whether or not Christian parents should utilize public schools

00:01:10.460 for their children, whether or not Christian parents should send their kids to public state-run

00:01:17.480 schools. And the first thing that I want to say, I'm going to play a couple clips from the debate,

00:01:21.720 Just two very brief clips, both coming from Jen Wilkin and her position, her arguments.

00:01:28.040 It's not really an argument, but her position that she conveys.

00:01:31.940 I'm going to show those two clips.

00:01:33.080 I'm going to break them down and give you my thoughts.

00:01:34.720 But before, I just want to address this concept of a good faith debate.

00:01:39.200 I'm not saying that it's fallacious or it's ridiculous on every account, but I do think

00:01:43.720 that it is not the proper phrase to be used in this context.

00:01:48.640 Let me give you an example of a good faith debate.

00:01:51.200 good faith debate, what that means, what they're trying to communicate with that phrasing of a

00:01:57.760 good faith debate is saying essentially that the debate is going to be charitable in nature.

00:02:02.640 Its tone is going to be charitable, both sides towards one another. And what makes it good faith

00:02:07.180 is not just a charitable or humble or winsome is probably what the Gospel Coalition would use to

00:02:14.120 describe it, a winsome tone, a winsome manner towards one another. But the good faith phrasing,

00:02:20.040 what that also conveys is that a Christian could take either side of the debate, that both options

00:02:27.240 are viable options according to the scripture, according to the word of God. Now, for instance,

00:02:35.220 let me give you an example of an actual good faith debate. A.D. Robles and I could have a good faith

00:02:40.040 debate about baptism. And that's not because, just for the record, that's not because we're

00:02:43.960 theological relativists. So we're not saying that both positions are biblically faithful positions.

00:02:49.840 No, they're not.

00:02:51.120 We could both be wrong, although I doubt it.

00:02:53.800 I think somebody's right in this particular instance.

00:02:56.040 We could both be wrong, or one of us could be wrong,

00:02:58.720 but we both can't be right about baptism.

00:03:02.080 Pado-baptism or credo-baptism, right?

00:03:03.940 You either can baptize babies or you can't.

00:03:07.280 You're either sprinkling or it's immersion.

00:03:10.680 Your understanding of the covenants, the new covenant,

00:03:13.120 nature of the new covenant,

00:03:14.080 is it regenerate church membership only,

00:03:17.160 regenerate in order to be positioned?

00:03:18.980 what's the door into the new covenant? I believe as somebody who is a Baptist, barely, most of my

00:03:25.580 friends these days tend to be Presbyterians and I've kind of have my given by them. I've been

00:03:30.060 given, you know, my honorary Presbyterian card, but in regards to baptism, I do hold to a credo

00:03:37.120 Baptist position. I believe that the door is faith. The door into the new covenant is faith. And yes,

00:03:43.920 I do see for the record, the continuity between the old covenant with Israel, the nation state

00:03:48.760 of israel and circumcision and the continuity between circumcision under the old covenant and

00:03:54.120 baptism for the new however i think that what matters is the timing that timing is important so

00:04:00.780 baptism for belonging in the new covenant likened to circumcision for belonging in the old covenant

00:04:06.400 yes and amen i'm right there with you but what gains you entrance right there are different

00:04:11.340 modes yes ruth could could become a part of the old covenant and join israel your people will be

00:04:16.100 my people. Your God will be my God, even though she wasn't Israel by natural birth. So there are

00:04:21.160 other ways in, but the predominant way into the old covenant was birth, physical birth. So after

00:04:27.540 physical birth, the Hebrew male on the eighth day would be circumcised because they've been entered 1.00

00:04:32.560 in. They've gained entrance into the old covenant by virtue of their natural birth. Well, in the

00:04:38.020 same way, when it comes to the new covenant, the way in is new birth. And so we apply the signs and

00:04:43.920 seals of baptism of the Lord's Supper right after entrance into the new covenant, which comes by

00:04:49.140 new birth or spiritual birth rather than old birth, physical birth. So that is continuity,

00:04:54.440 and yet we disagree in regards to the timing. Now, that could be a good faith debate.

00:04:59.380 That could be a good faith debate. Good faith not meaning that we could both be right,

00:05:03.780 but meaning that there's a legitimate biblical argument to be made on both sides of the issue.

00:05:10.960 there are legitimate paedo-baptist theologians throughout the ages for centuries now and there

00:05:19.340 are legitimate and i know the presbyterians are going to disagree but there are legitimate

00:05:23.500 credo-baptist arguments and theologians who have made those arguments for centuries now the 1689

00:05:30.980 is is not a trifle it's a legitimate reformed confession it is historical nehemiah cox is not

00:05:39.920 someone to scoff at. Benjamin Keech is not someone to scoff at. John Gill. There are legitimate

00:05:46.180 people and legitimate arguments made from the scripture to back up this position. Modern guys

00:05:52.100 who are living today, James White. On the other side of the debate, you've got guys like R.C.

00:05:57.920 Sproul. You've got guys like Doug Wilson. In the same way, the 1646, the Westminster Confession of

00:06:04.320 Faith is not a trifle. It is not something to be mocked. There are faithful guys on both positions.

00:06:09.220 that doesn't mean both are right because we're not relativists. These positions contradict one

00:06:13.380 another. They cannot be simultaneously true. Either they're both wrong or one position is

00:06:18.460 wrong, but they both can't be right. And yet we can have a good faith debate on that particular

00:06:24.220 topic because there is a reasonable argument to be made from what we understand about the

00:06:29.860 scripture. When it comes to Christians putting their children in public schools today in America,

00:06:36.340 right? Because you got to give a little bit of context with this debate. Jen Wilkin and the

00:06:40.120 position that she's arguing for is not public schools somewhere else on the other side of the 0.74

00:06:45.460 world. And it's not public schools in a different period of time, public schools in America 50 years

00:06:50.920 ago. She's talking about putting her kids in public school, which she did. And she says that

00:06:56.600 in this debate. And she says that given the option that she would do it again today in 2023 in

00:07:04.420 America she would put her children in the public school system today and what this is doing right

00:07:09.780 it makes me think of the Hegelian dialect right this well it's a typical gospel coalition third

00:07:16.320 wayism kind of thing that that ultimately really really what I think that accomplishes and I think

00:07:21.120 this is maybe not for everybody but I think some of the people with the gospel coalition this is

00:07:25.040 actually the intent I won't say for everyone some people could be just ignorance but I think some

00:07:30.480 people, there actually is a malicious intent. What they're trying to accomplish with this third

00:07:34.900 way argumentation is compromise. Because not in every instance, but with this instance about

00:07:42.840 public school and Christians utilizing public schools for their children, you're talking about 0.70

00:07:46.980 one position that's correct and another position that's wrong. The position that's correct is that 1.00

00:07:52.420 the children of Christians should not be in public schools. That is right. They should not. 1.00

00:07:56.500 The position that is incorrect is the position that Jen Wilkin is arguing for, that Christian 0.98

00:08:01.960 parents can send their kids to public school today in America in 2023.

00:08:08.160 That is wrong.

00:08:09.480 So a third-way position somewhere in between is simply compromise.

00:08:14.900 It's one thing's right, one thing's wrong. 1.00

00:08:17.600 In a best-case scenario, you're assuaging the consciences of Christians to adopt a position 0.79

00:08:23.920 that's partly wrong. 0.98

00:08:25.520 maybe they land somewhere in between so it's just some compromise it's just some unfaithfulness

00:08:30.880 worst case scenario is is that you go all the way to jen wilkins position and you're assuaging the

00:08:37.080 consciences of christian fathers and christian mothers um to to put their kids in public school

00:08:44.080 40 hours a week from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade um which is a massive amount

00:08:50.260 of compromise that is a massive amount of what i believe according to the scripture is unfaithful

00:08:55.260 So just even the framing, that's my first point, the framing of this debate, calling

00:09:00.140 it a good faith debate, what that implies or really outright expresses is that a legitimate,

00:09:08.300 reasonable argument from the scripture, from a Christian worldview could be made to support

00:09:13.100 either position.

00:09:14.640 And that is wrong.

00:09:15.900 That is incorrect.

00:09:17.200 And I'm not alone in saying this.

00:09:18.760 I'm not just being hardcore.

00:09:20.500 Doug Wilson would agree with my position and say that, yes, there is not a valid, reasonable 0.78

00:09:28.060 biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing public schools with their children. 0.97

00:09:33.640 Votie Bauckham would be another example. Votie Bauckham has said for decades now that if you

00:09:39.020 send your kids to Caesar, you cannot pretend to be surprised when they come back as Romans.

00:09:45.360 And so I would argue that this is a position that should not be framed as a good faith 0.71

00:09:51.040 position, a position that a Christian could take within the realm of faithfulness.

00:09:56.360 No, it is not somehow faithful or a different shade of faithfulness. 0.98

00:10:00.700 No, it is faithless.

00:10:02.520 It is wrong.

00:10:03.600 It is morally unpermissible.

00:10:06.240 Now, that being said, let me read a text here.

00:10:09.620 This is Ephesians chapter 6, verses 1 through 4.

00:10:11.920 It says, children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

00:10:15.260 Honor your father and mother.

00:10:16.860 This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you

00:10:21.120 may live long in the land.

00:10:23.160 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but rather bring them up in the discipline

00:10:29.580 and instruction of the Lord.

00:10:32.120 Fathers have a moral obligation under God to raise their children in the discipline

00:10:37.680 and instruction of the Lord.

00:10:39.420 The Greek word that's used there is paideia.

00:10:41.920 It means the instruction, the tutelage, the teaching, the curriculum, that God has a

00:10:47.940 curriculum for children.

00:10:50.300 There is a Christian curriculum for children that they must be trained up in.

00:10:56.920 They must be trained up in.

00:10:58.240 And I'm starting with this text to make this argument, and I'm going to show a couple

00:11:01.640 clips and break them down. 0.98

00:11:03.720 The argument that I'm making is that the moral imperative for Christian parents in not sending 0.63

00:11:08.940 their kids to public schools is not merely that Christians have an obligation to protect 0.76

00:11:14.700 their children from falsehoods, to protect their children from perversion, right?

00:11:21.420 It's not just that a Christian father and mother, but the father primarily as head of

00:11:26.240 the household, it's not only that he has a moral obligation under God as a Christian

00:11:30.740 father to see to it that his children avoid pagan indoctrination, to see to it that his

00:11:38.040 children are guarded and protected from critical race theory, from LGBT jihad agenda. It's not only 0.76

00:11:46.140 that he has to ensure that his children don't receive pagan education, but it's also that he

00:11:52.320 has a moral imperative placed upon him as the head of the household by God himself to ensure that his 0.87

00:11:58.600 children, not just that they avoid this bad thing, but that they are properly and thoroughly trained

00:12:04.240 up in, immersed in this good thing. What is the good thing? It's God's curriculum. It is the

00:12:09.780 Christian curriculum. It is the biblical worldview. And the point is this, if you are going to fulfill

00:12:17.280 the commandment that is given to fathers in scripture by God himself, not to provoke your

00:12:23.560 children to anger, but to bring them up, to raise them up, train them up, immerse them in the

00:12:28.660 discipline and instruction of the Lord to enlist them, enroll them in the paideia, the Christian

00:12:34.900 curriculum that God has given to us in his holy word that fathers must raise their children up in.

00:12:41.040 If you're going to do that, one practical requirement is time. Fathers, listen to me,

00:12:47.020 Christian fathers, you are not going to be able to raise your children up in the fear and admonition 0.87

00:12:53.240 of the Lord, the paideia of the Lord, with your 15-minute-a-day family worship in the evenings. 0.97

00:12:59.520 After your children get home from their eight hours a day, five days a week for 13 years,

00:13:06.800 kindergarten through 12th grade, you're not going to be able to enlist your children in 15,000 hours.

00:13:14.840 That's how much it amounts to. You're not going to be able to enlist your children, enroll them in

00:13:19.180 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination, and then with 15 minutes in the evening, and then an hour 0.96

00:13:27.460 and a half on the Lord's day, be able to sufficiently and thoroughly and biblically 0.68

00:13:32.040 raise your children up in the Christian paideia. So it's twofold. One, you do have an obligation.

00:13:39.940 Fathers are to provide and protect. Those are the two primary categories of a fatherly duty as head

00:13:45.860 of the household when it comes to your wife and when it comes to your children you must provide

00:13:49.580 for them spiritually provide from for them physically practically put food on the table

00:13:54.380 put a roof over their head clothe them right a father has an obligation to work out of outside

00:14:00.160 the home in such a way that he's able to protect his children and provide for his children physically

00:14:05.080 and spiritually and when it comes to spiritual protection one thing that a father has to do

00:14:10.320 is take his children to church

00:14:12.760 and make sure that he takes them

00:14:14.300 to a biblically faithful, orthodox, robust church

00:14:18.080 and not a he gets us compromised, 0.94

00:14:22.840 seeker-friendly, watered-down megachurch, right?

00:14:27.100 So he protects them physically.

00:14:29.500 He also protects them spiritually.

00:14:31.680 Well, in the same way that a father has an obligation 0.85

00:14:33.580 not to lead his family to a heretical church, 0.90

00:14:36.060 he cannot put his kids in 15,000 hours

00:14:39.100 of a heretical school.

00:14:40.320 for any christian father who says i would never take and see this is the compromise this is the

00:14:47.160 blatant hypocrisy for any christian father who cares about sound doctrine who would say i would

00:14:53.060 never take my children and my wife and and enroll our family as members in a in a heretical um of

00:15:01.540 false doctrine false teaching word of faith prosperity gospel seeker friendly megachurch

00:15:07.480 for an hour and 15 minutes once a week on sunday but i will put them in a public school for 40

00:15:15.540 hours a week monday through friday that is a contradiction so the point is this it's twofold

00:15:21.380 not only do fathers have an obligation to provide and protect on the protection side to protect

00:15:26.780 their children to ensure that their children avoid pagan indoctrination fathers also have

00:15:33.080 an obligation not just to make sure that their children are protected from getting something

00:15:37.240 that's bad but to instill in their children something that is good not just protect but

00:15:43.140 provide they must provide a christian education and if your children for the very brief window

00:15:50.200 of time that you have them in your home with you approximately give or take 18 years during those

00:15:57.220 18 years when your children father christian father are under your roof that they're under 0.74

00:16:02.320 your roof, they're in your home, you cannot afford, you simply cannot afford 15,000 hours 0.97

00:16:08.900 for them to be in a public school and expect with any reasonable expectation that you're

00:16:16.560 going to sufficiently and thoroughly be able to train them up in the fear and abomination 0.98

00:16:21.340 of the Lord, the discipline and instruction of the Lord, the Christian curriculum, because 0.52

00:16:25.900 a Christian curriculum, if it is to be thorough, if it is to be faithful, it requires far more

00:16:32.300 than your 15 minutes a day of family worship in the evening it is a a full-time endeavor right 0.62

00:16:39.180 so that's the first thing um so i don't i think i think that the framing is at best ignorant and

00:16:45.720 at worst downright deceptive of calling this a good faith debate because what that implies

00:16:51.960 or outright conveys is that a christian can reasonably and permissibly take both sides

00:16:59.060 both positions in this debate? And the answer is no. There is not, biblically speaking,

00:17:09.080 in America in 2023, there is not a biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing

00:17:16.940 public schools. And back in the day, just for the record, public schools, the reason why there 0.96

00:17:22.100 were Catholic schools early on in America and not a bunch of Protestant schools is because

00:17:26.800 essentially, this doesn't mean that there weren't problems back then, but there was a dynamic

00:17:30.720 difference between then and now. Primarily, the public schools were the Protestant schools.

00:17:36.720 Not only was there prayer in public schools, not only was there Bible in public schools,

00:17:41.240 there were catechisms in public schools in America. There were catechisms. That is long gone.

00:17:49.400 Long gone. So the argument that I'm making is that parents today, and I would say for really

00:17:55.320 for a few decades now, but especially in 2023, in the United States of America, a Christian parent 0.76

00:18:01.060 does not have a biblical leg to stand on when it comes to sending their kids to 15,000 hours 0.62

00:18:09.220 of public school curriculum. That's just simply not a good faith position that a Christian 0.99

00:18:15.920 can take today. Last disclaimer, and then I'll show the clip. Last disclaimer I want to make 0.99

00:18:20.600 real quick is a part of the the good faith debate uh they get into the the concept of well what

00:18:26.340 about uh christians um on staff at public schools christian adults who are a teacher in a public

00:18:32.280 school or um they're you know an administrator in a public school or or a principal you know

00:18:38.020 or on the school board or these kinds of things that's entirely different uh different that's

00:18:42.300 distinct from a parent sending their children to a public school for their formation for being

00:18:47.720 shaped, for being trained. There's a difference in an adult Christian going behind enemy lines

00:18:54.840 to make a difference versus an adult Christian sending their six-year-old child behind enemy

00:19:01.520 lines for training. Let me say that again. There is a dynamic difference between an adult Christian 0.80

00:19:07.680 going behind enemy lines to fight, to wage warfare, versus a Christian parent sending their

00:19:15.040 six-year-old child behind enemy lines to be shaped and formed and trained. That's dynamically 0.73

00:19:21.080 different. Doug Wilson has said it like this even recently in one of his blogs. He said,

00:19:25.260 can a Christian adult be a teacher at a public school? He said, yes, you just have to do so 1.00

00:19:29.840 faithfully. So you can't get up there and say evolution is true. We all evolved out of this

00:19:35.900 primordial soup and fish became lizards and lizards became whatever, apes and apes became

00:19:42.980 man. You can't do that. It's not faithful. You can't lie to children. Christians, right? I mean,

00:19:48.940 that's ultimately the question that we're asking. Can Christians, is it a viable Christian position 0.72

00:19:53.040 to say that Christian adults can lie to children? No, of course not. So Doug Wilson, his position

00:19:58.540 was saying, yes, a Christian can be in a public school as a teacher, a Christian adult, but they

00:20:03.420 have to do so Christianly. They have to do so as a Christian. And he said, so you can work in a

00:20:08.680 public school for approximately two to three weeks. Because if you do so faithfully, you'll

00:20:13.920 probably get fired. So it's not that a Christian can't do it, but a Christian has to do it faithfully. 0.75

00:20:19.040 So there's a difference between a Christian adult and the question of whether or not they can be

00:20:22.380 on staff at a public school versus a Christian parent sending their child to be trained

00:20:27.540 by a public school. And if you can be faithful at your public school as a Christian adult on staff

00:20:33.120 as a teacher, and by the grace of God in that particular public school, you're able to last

00:20:38.400 more than two or three weeks, maybe you can last two or three years, then fine. This video,

00:20:44.100 I'm not addressing you. That's not what we're addressing. So I'm not saying that that's wrong,

00:20:47.420 but I am saying that Christian parents can't send their kids there. Okay. That being said, 1.00

00:20:51.320 let's go ahead and roll the first clip. These are two short clips. Here's the first.

00:20:56.800 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say, well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are

00:21:00.920 Christians. And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers.

00:21:07.920 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.

00:21:11.940 Wow. Let's play it one more time.

00:21:13.720 I want you guys to catch this. This is important.

00:21:15.420 We're going to play the clip one more time. Here we go.

00:21:17.760 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say,

00:21:19.980 well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are Christians.

00:21:22.900 And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed

00:21:26.580 to all different kinds of teachers,

00:21:28.840 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.

00:21:32.100 So what Jen Wilkin is saying, right, 0.98

00:21:33.620 She's basically, she's acknowledging one of the fallacious arguments that Christians often make 0.93

00:21:40.060 in order to defend their position of sending their kids to a public school. One of those 0.99

00:21:45.060 fallacious arguments is this, well, my public school is different. My public school, you know,

00:21:50.580 all the teachers there are Christians. Number one, statistically, that is highly unlikely, 1.00

00:21:56.320 if not just downright impossible. But let's just humor that for a second and say maybe,

00:22:01.420 okay you have the one public school in america where all the teachers are christian there would

00:22:05.500 still be problems with that one because okay they may be christian teachers but but it's not just

00:22:12.960 we don't just want christians in education for our children we want them to receive a christian

00:22:19.540 education not just christians giving a pagan education there's a difference between a christian

00:22:25.360 teacher giving a non-christian education versus a christian teacher giving a christian education

00:22:32.060 a christian education meaning that the basis for all truth and everything that our children are

00:22:37.920 being taught is that jesus is lord that for him and through him and by him all things were created

00:22:45.680 and are being held together right they're not just receiving a a education from a christian but

00:22:52.460 they're receiving a Christian education from a Christian. So that's one of the arguments against

00:22:56.640 that. Votie Bauckham has dealt with that. So one, every teacher in your school is not a Christian.

00:23:02.480 That is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible. Number two, even if they were, 0.99

00:23:07.500 do you have Christians, right? Christian teachers, but are they giving a Christian education? Or is

00:23:12.520 it Christian teachers giving a non-Christian education? Well, Jen Wilkin doesn't even deal 1.00

00:23:16.300 with this. What she's doing, making it seem, right? It makes it appear as though she has 1.00

00:23:21.680 more of a viable argument. She's saying, well, I recognize that that, you know, that, that argument

00:23:25.980 that Christians who utilize public schools for their children, like I do, like I did when my

00:23:30.800 children were in school, I realized that one of the arguments they use is they say, well, our

00:23:34.220 school's different or all the teachers are Christians. And I recognize that that's a 1.00

00:23:37.280 fallacious argument. I would never dream of making such an argument. Okay. Well then,

00:23:43.000 then what is your argument? And so she actually argues the opposite. She actually says,

00:23:47.280 i actually see it as a virtue i see it as something positive something good um i want

00:23:53.020 my kids right that's the language notice that's the language that she uses she said i don't want

00:23:57.560 my kids to only have christian teachers i want them to have all kinds of teachers but all kinds

00:24:03.020 of teachers in this particular i want my kids to have a lot of different types of teachers

00:24:06.640 right i want my kids to have a teacher who specializes in science a teacher who specializes

00:24:11.540 in history teacher that specializes in literature um but but that's not what she's saying she's not

00:24:16.340 saying literature and science and, and, you know, I want them also to get some practical training

00:24:21.220 and welding. No, she's saying different kinds of teachers, meaning there's Christian kinds. And

00:24:26.880 then I want the non-Christian kinds also. No, I don't want that. I don't want that for my kids. 1.00

00:24:33.400 I don't want Christian teachers for my kids and then non-Christian teachers for my kids, 1.00

00:24:37.740 but Jen Wilkin does. She does. And that's, that's the argument she makes. And then right there at 1.00

00:24:43.380 the end what she ties on on the end is she says and then i'll parent them through it let's play

00:24:47.860 the clip one more time i want you to hear that here we go i'll hear a lot um from parents who

00:24:53.400 will say well it's a public school but all the teachers are christians and i'm like well i i

00:24:58.760 want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers and then i can parent them

00:25:03.900 through whatever those are so let me give you an illustration here that hopefully will be helpful

00:25:09.840 the illustration is this um if i was going to enroll my children in mma fighting which i won't

00:25:23.340 just for the record that's a video for another day um but let's say i'm going to enroll my

00:25:29.460 children in mma fighting classes to be trained um i do want my my kids to be trained in self-defense

00:25:35.800 and all those kinds of things but i think there's a difference in teaching them self-defense

00:25:39.500 versus encouraging them to mar the image of God,

00:25:44.280 the Imago Dei, by pounding somebody's face in

00:25:47.580 for sport as a competition.

00:25:50.120 That being said, if I was going to enroll my children

00:25:54.180 in MMA fighting techniques and classes,

00:25:59.000 jujitsu, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, whatever,

00:26:04.840 and we're talking about little children,

00:26:06.520 public school, starting with kindergarten,

00:26:08.080 right at this point you know people send their kids to preschool in the public school system

00:26:12.320 but let's just say kindergarten five years old kindergarten i would not enroll my child in mma

00:26:19.120 training as a five-year-old and drop them off at the gym right because remember jen jen wilkins 0.64

00:26:25.980 she's not sitting in class with her kids she's dropping them off i wouldn't drop my five-year-old

00:26:31.200 daughter off at MMA fighting training and knowing that part of the training is not just that my

00:26:38.520 five-year-old boy son or daughter is going to be sparring with other five-year-olds

00:26:43.800 but but that part of the training is that that my five-year-old is going to get in the ring

00:26:49.720 with a full-grown adult and they're going to fight them that full-grown adult is going to

00:26:58.020 start wailing on my child. They're going to be up against the ropes. And a 29-year-old

00:27:05.200 feminist is going to be wailing on my five-year-old daughter. And I'm at work 1.00

00:27:12.720 somewhere. I'm not even there. But when they get home, I'm going to parent them through it.

00:27:17.880 Right? So when my child gets home and they're battered and bruised and bleeding,

00:27:21.760 hopefully still alive but battered and bruised and bleeding then i'll i'll parent them through it

00:27:28.900 that's that's the equivalent no no that's that's not how christian parents parent

00:27:35.160 no that's no you're not you're going to parent them through it but but what are you parenting

00:27:40.340 them through you don't know what just happened you weren't there you weren't there you're going

00:27:46.520 to parent them through your five-year-old's recollection of what happened. But that teacher

00:27:54.020 with you out of the room, with you out not even being present, that pagan teacher who hates

00:27:58.600 God, if they're not a Christian. And again, I'm using her argument because her argument is she

00:28:02.800 wants different kinds of teachers. She wants non-Christian teachers. So she wants pagan 0.79

00:28:07.220 Christian or pagan teachers. And according to the word of God, there is no neutrality. There's no

00:28:12.060 indifference, right? Romans chapter eight says the mind of the sinful man is hostile, not just

00:28:17.260 neutral, not just indifferent, not uninterested, but hostile at enmity toward God and his law.

00:28:23.440 He does not submit to God's law, nor can he. He's unwilling to submit to the truth of God,

00:28:28.960 God's law, the way that God made the world. The pagan mind is unwilling to submit to God's law 1.00

00:28:34.140 and unable. He does not, he cannot. And so what you're advocating for right now is you're saying 0.99

00:28:41.080 that you actually don't want your children to be trained and formed and shaped and taught 0.78

00:28:47.260 in a Christian paideia by Christian teachers. But you actually see it as not just something

00:28:53.520 that we stomach, not just something that we put up with, but as a virtue, as a positive aspect of

00:29:00.000 your children's formation, that they be trained by God-hating pagans with you not there. So you

00:29:08.500 got a God-hating pagan giving a God-hating worldview that essentially right now, and 0.96

00:29:14.120 not just for 15 minutes, but for eight hours. 0.84

00:29:17.440 And while you're gone for eight hours, you have a God-hating teacher providing a God-hating

00:29:24.000 curriculum, God-hating worldview with your five-year-old.

00:29:28.100 So they're in the ring, and this grown adult is wailing on them, but you're going to parent

00:29:33.640 them through it on the backside.

00:29:35.060 you're going to somehow salvage this um after the fact uh based off of working from your five-year-old

00:29:41.980 your six-year-old your seven-year-old's recollection of of the fight that they just had

00:29:47.580 and how they got pummeled and and one you're counting on your five-year-old to be able to

00:29:52.860 to call this to memory um and and hopefully they were conscious even for this fight they were

00:29:59.380 getting destroyed they were getting pummeled um but you're gonna you're gonna work them through

00:30:04.380 you're going to parent them through it um no you're not you're not um no this is a bad idea

00:30:12.480 this is not a good faith position that christians can take it's not it's not we don't subject our

00:30:19.780 children your child is not a missionary and see that's part of the argument right so jim wilkin

00:30:25.300 she she's aware of some of the arguments that have failed that have been thoroughly dismantled

00:30:30.260 by guys like Voodie Bauckham.

00:30:32.480 And so she doesn't even attempt to make them, right?

00:30:34.960 She tries to make these new arguments, right? 0.81

00:30:37.520 The Christian parents, one of her arguments 0.94

00:30:39.260 is that they should put their kids 0.91

00:30:40.440 in the public school system

00:30:41.420 because what about all those other kids

00:30:43.140 that would just be left?

00:30:45.460 Well, yeah, that is tragic.

00:30:48.600 That is tragic.

00:30:49.900 But your chief responsibility, Christian,

00:30:52.040 is for your kids, your kids, right?

00:30:55.900 I mean, apply that same logic and say,

00:30:57.660 well, there are children that are starving.

00:30:59.120 and so i i mean i i can't i can't put my children you know in front of a table that has food i can't

00:31:05.880 you know i none like if every christian you know part at one point in the good faith debate she

00:31:11.680 says if every christian took uh their children out of the public school all all at the same time

00:31:16.360 um imagine the the collapse and the the calamity and and and how harmful it would be for all these

00:31:23.840 kids who are left behind. And I would respond to that and say, praise God. Praise God. Not praise

00:31:31.080 God in the sense of it's good that this would have negative impact on these other children.

00:31:35.460 I would actually argue that I don't think that would be the result. I think the result would be

00:31:39.220 if every faithful Christian, everybody who professes the name of Christ and claims to be 0.97

00:31:45.160 a Christian started behaving in a faithful manner and took their kids out of the public school

00:31:48.800 system, even in the state of California, you have 10 million, 42 million is the population,

00:31:54.260 give or take, 10 million of those residents profess to be Christians. If 10 million, a quarter,

00:32:00.720 25, and that's California, right? So if you take the nation as a whole, it would be over a quarter

00:32:05.480 of the population takes their kids out of the public school system, well, the public school

00:32:09.820 system would collapse. It would be done. It would implode. And we would be forced to come up with

00:32:16.600 other options. And I do believe that the vast majority of these alternative options would be

00:32:23.200 better than the current situation, better than the state-run atheistic schools that we currently

00:32:29.000 have. So the idea of making the argument saying, well, of course, we can't say that the children

00:32:36.560 of Christians are missionaries, right? Of course not. We can't make that argument. The reason she's

00:32:41.460 not making that argument for the record is because that argument was made by Christians to support

00:32:46.340 sending kids to public schools, that argument was made ad nauseum for decades. And it has been

00:32:52.900 proven and dismantled so thoroughly by this point that Jen Wilkin just doesn't even have

00:32:59.060 the gall to even make the argument because it's been so thoroughly disproven. Your children are

00:33:06.200 not to be treated as missionaries. They're training. I mean, even when it comes to 18,

00:33:12.160 19, 20-year-old young adults who enlist in the military, they go to boot camp. And boot camp

00:33:21.920 is thousands of miles away from actual warfare that's taking place. And yes, it's rigorous,

00:33:28.040 and yes, it's difficult, but it's controlled, and it's protected, and it's defended. We don't even

00:33:35.480 send someone into who's a young adult. We don't send them into battle without first being

00:33:41.760 trained and the training doesn't happen on the battlefield, it's too late. The training doesn't

00:33:47.900 happen at war. The training happens in preparation in the controlled environment before war. The

00:33:55.320 imperative for Christian parents is not to treat their children as missionaries, as spiritual 1.00

00:34:03.280 soldiers in the war, but rather to train them so that when they're ready, they would be shot out 0.95

00:34:09.480 like arrows. But those arrows need to be formed first. They need to be sharpened. They need to

00:34:14.020 be straightened. We need those arrows to be prepared before we shoot them out at the enemy.

00:34:19.640 Okay, so let's go ahead and play the next clip. I don't want to covertly take over the public

00:34:26.960 schools and make them Christian schools, although I value the ethics that that would involve being

00:34:33.460 in place in the public schools. But I think that because they're public schools, 0.56

00:34:38.700 they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn't. 0.98

00:34:45.080 No. Okay. First, I do want to take over public schools. Now I agree. I don't want to covertly 0.96

00:34:52.140 take over public schools. I want to overtly take over public schools. I want the public school and

00:34:57.940 I want the United States of America, I want the general public to be fully aware of what the

00:35:03.960 Christian's intention is. And that intention is that, yes, we want to take over public schools. 0.90

00:35:10.080 We want to see them shut down. We want to see them shut down. I believe that the public school

00:35:15.040 system in America is past the point of being redeemed, that it needs to be shut down. We

00:35:21.620 talk about some institutions. You can go inside and try to recapture some institutions. And other

00:35:27.360 institutions like high places in Israel. They need to be burned to the ground, and a temple to the 1.00

00:35:34.140 Lord needs to be built right on top of the ashes. I think the public school system in America today

00:35:38.520 in 2023 would be an example of an institution that needs to be abandoned, and it ultimately

00:35:44.120 needs to be overcome. It needs to be conquered. It needs to be conquered. So, well, she's saying,

00:35:50.800 know, well, I don't want to take over the public school system. Well, I do. I do. And I want to do

00:35:57.800 it from the outside. Or from the inside, I want to see faithful Christian adults at the school

00:36:04.120 board meeting. I want to see faithful Christian adults, but not from the inside by sending in 0.89

00:36:08.660 our secret agent, six-year-old. Now, your six-year-old child is not meant to be sent in 0.97

00:36:17.080 by Christian parents as the TKO weapon to take down the public school. So I do want to overtake 1.00

00:36:26.140 the public school system. I don't want to covertly do it. I don't want to do it deceptively. I want

00:36:30.620 to do it overtly and say, yeah, this is wrong. And by God's grace, if he would be so gracious,

00:36:36.460 he's going to empower us by his spirit through both law and gospel to take this down and to set

00:36:42.760 up better Christian alternatives. But the last thing that she said in that clip, I want to play 0.70

00:36:47.120 it for you guys one more time, but the last thing she said in that clip is not just, I don't want

00:36:50.820 to take them down, but basically saying, I don't want to take them down because the general public

00:36:55.220 needs them. There are non-Christians and these non-Christians need this non-Christian education 1.00

00:37:01.300 because it's good for the general public. It's good for society. Play the clip again. 1.00

00:37:07.440 I don't want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools. 0.64

00:37:12.160 schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve being in place in

00:37:17.620 the public schools.

00:37:19.220 But I think that because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population in 1.00

00:37:25.160 a way that a Christian school doesn't. 1.00

00:37:28.820 Because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population, right? 0.56

00:37:32.180 She's essentially saying because it's a public school, it needs to serve the general public 0.98

00:37:35.960 in a way that a Christian school doesn't.

00:37:39.160 is um that is a pivotal fallacy no a christian school if it's truly christian it serves the

00:37:47.940 general public better than a public school than an atheistic pagan school period the point that

00:37:56.920 i'm making is this a christian school is not just better for um christian children or the children

00:38:02.620 of christian parents it's better for everyone the law of god is good holy and right it's not just

00:38:11.220 the morally right thing it's the good thing triple braided cord truth goodness and beauty if it's

00:38:17.440 true it is beautiful if it's true it is beneficial it is good the right thing is the good thing and

00:38:25.720 the thing that is truly good for society for human flourishing is also that which aligns with the

00:38:31.680 law of God and is morally right. Christian schools, hear me, Christian schools are not just

00:38:38.540 a necessity for the children of Christian parents. Christian schools are a practical,

00:38:45.940 not just spiritual, it's that, certainly, but also a practical benefit to everyone.

00:38:54.040 Everyone. Salt and light benefits everyone. The gospel of Jesus Christ benefits everyone.

00:39:01.680 It is better to be an atheist living in a Christian society with Christian principles 0.87

00:39:07.920 and Christian law and Christian civil magistrates. 0.90

00:39:11.560 Better to be a non-Christian in a Christian society than to be not only a Christian in 0.86

00:39:18.160 a non-Christian society, but even a non-Christian in a non-Christian society. 0.91

00:39:23.060 Pagans do not fare well in pagan societies.

00:39:27.680 The Christian worldview is good for everyone.

00:39:31.680 When the tide rises, it lifts all the boats.

00:39:34.960 This Christian ethic that she mentions in passing, she says, well, while I see that

00:39:39.160 a Christian ethic would be good, the implication that she gives in that clip is she's saying,

00:39:44.480 she's subtly implying that a Christian ethic, a Christian education, Christian school would

00:39:49.580 teach a Christian ethic and that would be good.

00:39:51.560 But what she's implying is that it would be good for Christians, that it would be exclusively

00:39:56.020 good for Christians.

00:39:57.180 But we live in a society where, you know, not everybody's Christian.

00:40:01.460 there there's a general public and and there are people who are not christian so they need

00:40:05.760 non-christians need non-christian schools for their good no the gospel is good for everyone

00:40:11.560 the law of god is good for everyone the christian paideia is good for every child

00:40:18.920 every child a child of unbelievers or child of believers both will benefit by being trained up

00:40:27.780 in the fear and admonition of the Lord. What is true is that which is good. And I mean universally

00:40:35.200 good. Universally good. That which is true, aligning with God's word and what God says is true,

00:40:42.080 is going to be that which is good. And not just good for some people. It's not if we cling to the

00:40:47.840 truth, it'll benefit the church. No, if we cling to the truth, it benefits the church. It will

00:40:53.880 uniquely benefit the people of God. That's true. But the truth of God, his ways, his law, his

00:41:00.360 principles, his gospel, it doesn't just uniquely benefit the church, but it also universally

00:41:06.520 benefits all image bearers. All people benefit. One of the most loving things that we can do,

00:41:14.340 not just for our own children, not just for Christian children or children of Christian

00:41:18.560 households, but benefit all children. One of the best ways that you can love your neighbor

00:41:25.040 is by not just obeying the law of God, but ensuring in the public square that the law of

00:41:31.620 God is adhered to by the civil public, the civil square. When a Christian votes for certain laws,

00:41:38.900 right? So as an abolitionist, when it comes to the issue of abortion, I want to work towards 0.87

00:41:47.120 penalties for abortion. And not just penalties for the abortion doctor, but penalties for the mother 0.74

00:41:53.480 who goes to have her unborn child murdered and consents to that murder, is complicit in that

00:42:00.640 murder, and the father, if he consents to that. I want penalties for him too. I don't want just

00:42:05.600 abortion to be unavailable. I don't want abortion just to be illegal. I want abortion to be

00:42:12.480 criminalized. I want there to be penalties, equal penalties, not just some penalties, 0.99

00:42:17.760 but whatever the penalty would be for a mother taking her three-year-old child to a back alley 0.96

00:42:22.900 with a hitman and paying him to shoot that child in the head and murder them in cold blood. I want 1.00

00:42:28.580 that, whatever that penalty is, I want that same penalty for a mother who goes to an abortion 0.99

00:42:34.120 doctor and drags her baby by virtue of it being in her womb and pays him in order to kill her 0.99

00:42:40.360 unborn child. I want the same penalty, equal penalties. Equal penalties, here's the argument, 0.97

00:42:45.420 real short. Equal penalties ensures equal protection. You cannot say that it's equal

00:42:50.320 protection if it's not an equal penalty. So equal penalties is equal protection, and equal

00:42:55.240 protection is necessary in order to actually back up the argument of equal dignity, equal sanctity,

00:43:02.160 equal value. If you're going to say that the child in the womb really is a child, that they really

00:43:07.480 are a human being that they really are an image bearer not half of an image bearer but a whole

00:43:12.080 image bearer a whole human if you're going to attribute to the unborn child um 100 personhood

00:43:18.700 as an image bearer the living god created in the image of god with the full sanctity of life

00:43:24.020 if you're going to say equal value for the unborn then then to back that statement up to say we

00:43:29.200 value the unborn just as much as those who are born then you have to say equal value means then

00:43:34.300 we ensure equal protections. And if it's going to be equal protections, it has to be equal penalties.

00:43:40.500 Now, if I vote for a law like that, or I give my vote for a political candidate who's given a

00:43:47.960 promise to ensure and put down bills on the table to try to pass laws like that, that benefits

00:43:54.760 everyone. I'm not just doing that because I think it's good for Christians. No, I'm doing that for

00:44:00.960 children in the womb who very well may be born and grow up and live their entire lives from birth

00:44:08.200 to death and never receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior through faith. And yet it's still in

00:44:15.600 their benefit. They're temporal, physical. In this life, it is to their good. It is to their benefit.

00:44:21.580 And so I'm going to support laws in the civil sphere, in the public square, when it comes to

00:44:27.340 education public education when it comes to legislation and laws i am going to support that

00:44:33.340 which aligns with the moral transcendent universal law of god because it's right it's true and

00:44:40.160 therefore it is also good and practically beneficial not just for christian people

00:44:44.760 or christian children but for all people and all children the christian ethic no my argument is

00:44:51.460 jen wilkin is wrong my argument is not that well there there are christians and they can have their

00:44:56.360 christian schools but there are non-christians and so they need non-christian schools no the

00:44:59.880 christian ethic that should come from a faithful christian school benefits everyone whether they're

00:45:04.880 christian or not because it's right and it's true so this good faith debate was not helpful

00:45:12.600 again at best it muddies the water and confuses christian parents and at worst it assuages the 0.99

00:45:20.900 consciences of Christian mothers and fathers to the point that it would allow them to enlist

00:45:26.620 their children in 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination. And that is a sin. Thanks for 0.92

00:45:33.360 tuning in. Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look, some of you

00:45:38.400 guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you.

00:45:43.960 I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact,

00:45:51.080 some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's

00:45:56.660 ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last 0.97

00:46:05.680 three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if

00:46:13.080 people change the definition of a recession, we are living in a recession right now regardless.

00:46:20.260 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support

00:46:26.560 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.

00:46:33.820 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a

00:46:40.480 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.

00:46:47.100 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves but shrewd as vipers. We need

00:46:53.960 to be strategic. You leave us a five-star review and our podcast shows up for more people. And the

00:47:00.600 word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of life gets out

00:47:08.400 there. Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - February 23, 2023

BONUS EPISODE - Jen Wilkin, The Gospel Coalition, & Public School “Debate”

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