The NXR Podcast - February 23, 2023


BONUS EPISODE - Jen Wilkin, The Gospel Coalition, & Public School “Debate”

Topics
public school debate public school debate financial support for ministry
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Jen Wilkin Doug Wilson Votie Bauckham Jonathan Pennington Jesus Christ Last Benjamin Keech Jamie White John Gill Muay Thai Joe Biden
DAILY TRUTH - How Mega-Churches Tyrannize Men DAILY TRUTH - John MacArthur & The Feminists At Christianity Today

Episode Stats


Length

47 minutes

Words per minute

169.81

Word count

8,014

Sentence count

398

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

88

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The Gospel Coalition released a Good Faith Debate between Jen Wilkin, Pennington, and another Christian on whether or not Christian parents should allow their kids to attend public schools. What does that mean and how does it affect our understanding of baptism and the New Covenant?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 All right, listen, guys. I get it. Many of you are unable to financially support this ministry
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00:00:40 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and I'm doing a quick
00:00:44 live video right now. It's Tuesday. I typically don't go live and do videos like this on just a
00:00:51 random day of the week, but I couldn't let this one slide. Yesterday, the Gospel Coalition released
00:00:56 a good faith debate between Jen Wilkin and Jonathan Pennington, Jen Wilkin and Jonathan
00:01:04 Pennington over the topic of whether or not Christian parents should utilize public schools
00:01:10 for their children, whether or not Christian parents should send their kids to public state-run
00:01:17 schools. And the first thing that I want to say, I'm going to play a couple clips from the debate,
00:01:21 Just two very brief clips, both coming from Jen Wilkin and her position, her arguments.
00:01:28 It's not really an argument, but her position that she conveys.
00:01:31 I'm going to show those two clips.
00:01:33 I'm going to break them down and give you my thoughts.
00:01:34 But before, I just want to address this concept of a good faith debate.
00:01:39 I'm not saying that it's fallacious or it's ridiculous on every account, but I do think
00:01:43 that it is not the proper phrase to be used in this context.
00:01:48 Let me give you an example of a good faith debate.
00:01:51 good faith debate, what that means, what they're trying to communicate with that phrasing of a
00:01:57 good faith debate is saying essentially that the debate is going to be charitable in nature.
00:02:02 Its tone is going to be charitable, both sides towards one another. And what makes it good faith
00:02:07 is not just a charitable or humble or winsome is probably what the Gospel Coalition would use to
00:02:14 describe it, a winsome tone, a winsome manner towards one another. But the good faith phrasing,
00:02:20 what that also conveys is that a Christian could take either side of the debate, that both options
00:02:27 are viable options according to the scripture, according to the word of God. Now, for instance,
00:02:35 let me give you an example of an actual good faith debate. A.D. Robles and I could have a good faith
00:02:40 debate about baptism. And that's not because, just for the record, that's not because we're
00:02:43 theological relativists. So we're not saying that both positions are biblically faithful positions.
00:02:49 No, they're not.
00:02:51 We could both be wrong, although I doubt it.
00:02:53 I think somebody's right in this particular instance.
00:02:56 We could both be wrong, or one of us could be wrong,
00:02:58 but we both can't be right about baptism.
00:03:02 Pado-baptism or credo-baptism, right?
00:03:03 You either can baptize babies or you can't.
00:03:07 You're either sprinkling or it's immersion.
00:03:10 Your understanding of the covenants, the new covenant,
00:03:13 nature of the new covenant,
00:03:14 is it regenerate church membership only,
00:03:17 regenerate in order to be positioned?
00:03:18 what's the door into the new covenant? I believe as somebody who is a Baptist, barely, most of my
00:03:25 friends these days tend to be Presbyterians and I've kind of have my given by them. I've been
00:03:30 given, you know, my honorary Presbyterian card, but in regards to baptism, I do hold to a credo
00:03:37 Baptist position. I believe that the door is faith. The door into the new covenant is faith. And yes,
00:03:43 I do see for the record, the continuity between the old covenant with Israel, the nation state
00:03:48 of israel and circumcision and the continuity between circumcision under the old covenant and
00:03:54 baptism for the new however i think that what matters is the timing that timing is important so
00:04:00 baptism for belonging in the new covenant likened to circumcision for belonging in the old covenant
00:04:06 yes and amen i'm right there with you but what gains you entrance right there are different
00:04:11 modes yes ruth could could become a part of the old covenant and join israel your people will be
00:04:16 my people. Your God will be my God, even though she wasn't Israel by natural birth. So there are
00:04:21 other ways in, but the predominant way into the old covenant was birth, physical birth. So after
00:04:27 physical birth, the Hebrew male on the eighth day would be circumcised because they've been entered 1.00
00:04:32 in. They've gained entrance into the old covenant by virtue of their natural birth. Well, in the
00:04:38 same way, when it comes to the new covenant, the way in is new birth. And so we apply the signs and
00:04:43 seals of baptism of the Lord's Supper right after entrance into the new covenant, which comes by
00:04:49 new birth or spiritual birth rather than old birth, physical birth. So that is continuity,
00:04:54 and yet we disagree in regards to the timing. Now, that could be a good faith debate.
00:04:59 That could be a good faith debate. Good faith not meaning that we could both be right,
00:05:03 but meaning that there's a legitimate biblical argument to be made on both sides of the issue.
00:05:10 there are legitimate paedo-baptist theologians throughout the ages for centuries now and there
00:05:19 are legitimate and i know the presbyterians are going to disagree but there are legitimate
00:05:23 credo-baptist arguments and theologians who have made those arguments for centuries now the 1689
00:05:30 is is not a trifle it's a legitimate reformed confession it is historical nehemiah cox is not
00:05:39 someone to scoff at. Benjamin Keech is not someone to scoff at. John Gill. There are legitimate
00:05:46 people and legitimate arguments made from the scripture to back up this position. Modern guys
00:05:52 who are living today, James White. On the other side of the debate, you've got guys like R.C.
00:05:57 Sproul. You've got guys like Doug Wilson. In the same way, the 1646, the Westminster Confession of
00:06:04 Faith is not a trifle. It is not something to be mocked. There are faithful guys on both positions.
00:06:09 that doesn't mean both are right because we're not relativists. These positions contradict one
00:06:13 another. They cannot be simultaneously true. Either they're both wrong or one position is
00:06:18 wrong, but they both can't be right. And yet we can have a good faith debate on that particular
00:06:24 topic because there is a reasonable argument to be made from what we understand about the
00:06:29 scripture. When it comes to Christians putting their children in public schools today in America,
00:06:36 right? Because you got to give a little bit of context with this debate. Jen Wilkin and the
00:06:40 position that she's arguing for is not public schools somewhere else on the other side of the 0.74
00:06:45 world. And it's not public schools in a different period of time, public schools in America 50 years
00:06:50 ago. She's talking about putting her kids in public school, which she did. And she says that
00:06:56 in this debate. And she says that given the option that she would do it again today in 2023 in
00:07:04 America she would put her children in the public school system today and what this is doing right
00:07:09 it makes me think of the Hegelian dialect right this well it's a typical gospel coalition third
00:07:16 wayism kind of thing that that ultimately really really what I think that accomplishes and I think
00:07:21 this is maybe not for everybody but I think some of the people with the gospel coalition this is
00:07:25 actually the intent I won't say for everyone some people could be just ignorance but I think some
00:07:30 people, there actually is a malicious intent. What they're trying to accomplish with this third
00:07:34 way argumentation is compromise. Because not in every instance, but with this instance about
00:07:42 public school and Christians utilizing public schools for their children, you're talking about 0.70
00:07:46 one position that's correct and another position that's wrong. The position that's correct is that 1.00
00:07:52 the children of Christians should not be in public schools. That is right. They should not. 1.00
00:07:56 The position that is incorrect is the position that Jen Wilkin is arguing for, that Christian 0.98
00:08:01 parents can send their kids to public school today in America in 2023.
00:08:08 That is wrong.
00:08:09 So a third-way position somewhere in between is simply compromise.
00:08:14 It's one thing's right, one thing's wrong. 1.00
00:08:17 In a best-case scenario, you're assuaging the consciences of Christians to adopt a position 0.79
00:08:23 that's partly wrong. 0.98
00:08:25 maybe they land somewhere in between so it's just some compromise it's just some unfaithfulness
00:08:30 worst case scenario is is that you go all the way to jen wilkins position and you're assuaging the
00:08:37 consciences of christian fathers and christian mothers um to to put their kids in public school
00:08:44 40 hours a week from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade um which is a massive amount
00:08:50 of compromise that is a massive amount of what i believe according to the scripture is unfaithful
00:08:55 So just even the framing, that's my first point, the framing of this debate, calling
00:09:00 it a good faith debate, what that implies or really outright expresses is that a legitimate,
00:09:08 reasonable argument from the scripture, from a Christian worldview could be made to support
00:09:13 either position.
00:09:14 And that is wrong.
00:09:15 That is incorrect.
00:09:17 And I'm not alone in saying this.
00:09:18 I'm not just being hardcore.
00:09:20 Doug Wilson would agree with my position and say that, yes, there is not a valid, reasonable 0.78
00:09:28 biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing public schools with their children. 0.97
00:09:33 Votie Bauckham would be another example. Votie Bauckham has said for decades now that if you
00:09:39 send your kids to Caesar, you cannot pretend to be surprised when they come back as Romans.
00:09:45 And so I would argue that this is a position that should not be framed as a good faith 0.71
00:09:51 position, a position that a Christian could take within the realm of faithfulness.
00:09:56 No, it is not somehow faithful or a different shade of faithfulness. 0.98
00:10:00 No, it is faithless.
00:10:02 It is wrong.
00:10:03 It is morally unpermissible.
00:10:06 Now, that being said, let me read a text here.
00:10:09 This is Ephesians chapter 6, verses 1 through 4.
00:10:11 It says, children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
00:10:15 Honor your father and mother.
00:10:16 This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you
00:10:21 may live long in the land.
00:10:23 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but rather bring them up in the discipline
00:10:29 and instruction of the Lord.
00:10:32 Fathers have a moral obligation under God to raise their children in the discipline
00:10:37 and instruction of the Lord.
00:10:39 The Greek word that's used there is paideia.
00:10:41 It means the instruction, the tutelage, the teaching, the curriculum, that God has a
00:10:47 curriculum for children.
00:10:50 There is a Christian curriculum for children that they must be trained up in.
00:10:56 They must be trained up in.
00:10:58 And I'm starting with this text to make this argument, and I'm going to show a couple
00:11:01 clips and break them down. 0.98
00:11:03 The argument that I'm making is that the moral imperative for Christian parents in not sending 0.63
00:11:08 their kids to public schools is not merely that Christians have an obligation to protect 0.76
00:11:14 their children from falsehoods, to protect their children from perversion, right?
00:11:21 It's not just that a Christian father and mother, but the father primarily as head of
00:11:26 the household, it's not only that he has a moral obligation under God as a Christian
00:11:30 father to see to it that his children avoid pagan indoctrination, to see to it that his
00:11:38 children are guarded and protected from critical race theory, from LGBT jihad agenda. It's not only 0.76
00:11:46 that he has to ensure that his children don't receive pagan education, but it's also that he
00:11:52 has a moral imperative placed upon him as the head of the household by God himself to ensure that his 0.87
00:11:58 children, not just that they avoid this bad thing, but that they are properly and thoroughly trained
00:12:04 up in, immersed in this good thing. What is the good thing? It's God's curriculum. It is the
00:12:09 Christian curriculum. It is the biblical worldview. And the point is this, if you are going to fulfill
00:12:17 the commandment that is given to fathers in scripture by God himself, not to provoke your
00:12:23 children to anger, but to bring them up, to raise them up, train them up, immerse them in the
00:12:28 discipline and instruction of the Lord to enlist them, enroll them in the paideia, the Christian
00:12:34 curriculum that God has given to us in his holy word that fathers must raise their children up in.
00:12:41 If you're going to do that, one practical requirement is time. Fathers, listen to me,
00:12:47 Christian fathers, you are not going to be able to raise your children up in the fear and admonition 0.87
00:12:53 of the Lord, the paideia of the Lord, with your 15-minute-a-day family worship in the evenings. 0.97
00:12:59 After your children get home from their eight hours a day, five days a week for 13 years,
00:13:06 kindergarten through 12th grade, you're not going to be able to enlist your children in 15,000 hours.
00:13:14 That's how much it amounts to. You're not going to be able to enlist your children, enroll them in
00:13:19 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination, and then with 15 minutes in the evening, and then an hour 0.96
00:13:27 and a half on the Lord's day, be able to sufficiently and thoroughly and biblically 0.68
00:13:32 raise your children up in the Christian paideia. So it's twofold. One, you do have an obligation.
00:13:39 Fathers are to provide and protect. Those are the two primary categories of a fatherly duty as head
00:13:45 of the household when it comes to your wife and when it comes to your children you must provide
00:13:49 for them spiritually provide from for them physically practically put food on the table
00:13:54 put a roof over their head clothe them right a father has an obligation to work out of outside
00:14:00 the home in such a way that he's able to protect his children and provide for his children physically
00:14:05 and spiritually and when it comes to spiritual protection one thing that a father has to do
00:14:10 is take his children to church
00:14:12 and make sure that he takes them
00:14:14 to a biblically faithful, orthodox, robust church
00:14:18 and not a he gets us compromised, 0.94
00:14:22 seeker-friendly, watered-down megachurch, right?
00:14:27 So he protects them physically.
00:14:29 He also protects them spiritually.
00:14:31 Well, in the same way that a father has an obligation 0.85
00:14:33 not to lead his family to a heretical church, 0.90
00:14:36 he cannot put his kids in 15,000 hours
00:14:39 of a heretical school.
00:14:40 for any christian father who says i would never take and see this is the compromise this is the
00:14:47 blatant hypocrisy for any christian father who cares about sound doctrine who would say i would
00:14:53 never take my children and my wife and and enroll our family as members in a in a heretical um of
00:15:01 false doctrine false teaching word of faith prosperity gospel seeker friendly megachurch
00:15:07 for an hour and 15 minutes once a week on sunday but i will put them in a public school for 40
00:15:15 hours a week monday through friday that is a contradiction so the point is this it's twofold
00:15:21 not only do fathers have an obligation to provide and protect on the protection side to protect
00:15:26 their children to ensure that their children avoid pagan indoctrination fathers also have
00:15:33 an obligation not just to make sure that their children are protected from getting something
00:15:37 that's bad but to instill in their children something that is good not just protect but
00:15:43 provide they must provide a christian education and if your children for the very brief window
00:15:50 of time that you have them in your home with you approximately give or take 18 years during those
00:15:57 18 years when your children father christian father are under your roof that they're under 0.74
00:16:02 your roof, they're in your home, you cannot afford, you simply cannot afford 15,000 hours 0.97
00:16:08 for them to be in a public school and expect with any reasonable expectation that you're
00:16:16 going to sufficiently and thoroughly be able to train them up in the fear and abomination 0.98
00:16:21 of the Lord, the discipline and instruction of the Lord, the Christian curriculum, because 0.52
00:16:25 a Christian curriculum, if it is to be thorough, if it is to be faithful, it requires far more
00:16:32 than your 15 minutes a day of family worship in the evening it is a a full-time endeavor right 0.62
00:16:39 so that's the first thing um so i don't i think i think that the framing is at best ignorant and
00:16:45 at worst downright deceptive of calling this a good faith debate because what that implies
00:16:51 or outright conveys is that a christian can reasonably and permissibly take both sides
00:16:59 both positions in this debate? And the answer is no. There is not, biblically speaking,
00:17:09 in America in 2023, there is not a biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing
00:17:16 public schools. And back in the day, just for the record, public schools, the reason why there 0.96
00:17:22 were Catholic schools early on in America and not a bunch of Protestant schools is because
00:17:26 essentially, this doesn't mean that there weren't problems back then, but there was a dynamic
00:17:30 difference between then and now. Primarily, the public schools were the Protestant schools.
00:17:36 Not only was there prayer in public schools, not only was there Bible in public schools,
00:17:41 there were catechisms in public schools in America. There were catechisms. That is long gone.
00:17:49 Long gone. So the argument that I'm making is that parents today, and I would say for really
00:17:55 for a few decades now, but especially in 2023, in the United States of America, a Christian parent 0.76
00:18:01 does not have a biblical leg to stand on when it comes to sending their kids to 15,000 hours 0.62
00:18:09 of public school curriculum. That's just simply not a good faith position that a Christian 0.99
00:18:15 can take today. Last disclaimer, and then I'll show the clip. Last disclaimer I want to make 0.99
00:18:20 real quick is a part of the the good faith debate uh they get into the the concept of well what
00:18:26 about uh christians um on staff at public schools christian adults who are a teacher in a public
00:18:32 school or um they're you know an administrator in a public school or or a principal you know
00:18:38 or on the school board or these kinds of things that's entirely different uh different that's
00:18:42 distinct from a parent sending their children to a public school for their formation for being
00:18:47 shaped, for being trained. There's a difference in an adult Christian going behind enemy lines
00:18:54 to make a difference versus an adult Christian sending their six-year-old child behind enemy
00:19:01 lines for training. Let me say that again. There is a dynamic difference between an adult Christian 0.80
00:19:07 going behind enemy lines to fight, to wage warfare, versus a Christian parent sending their
00:19:15 six-year-old child behind enemy lines to be shaped and formed and trained. That's dynamically 0.73
00:19:21 different. Doug Wilson has said it like this even recently in one of his blogs. He said,
00:19:25 can a Christian adult be a teacher at a public school? He said, yes, you just have to do so 1.00
00:19:29 faithfully. So you can't get up there and say evolution is true. We all evolved out of this
00:19:35 primordial soup and fish became lizards and lizards became whatever, apes and apes became
00:19:42 man. You can't do that. It's not faithful. You can't lie to children. Christians, right? I mean,
00:19:48 that's ultimately the question that we're asking. Can Christians, is it a viable Christian position 0.72
00:19:53 to say that Christian adults can lie to children? No, of course not. So Doug Wilson, his position
00:19:58 was saying, yes, a Christian can be in a public school as a teacher, a Christian adult, but they
00:20:03 have to do so Christianly. They have to do so as a Christian. And he said, so you can work in a
00:20:08 public school for approximately two to three weeks. Because if you do so faithfully, you'll
00:20:13 probably get fired. So it's not that a Christian can't do it, but a Christian has to do it faithfully. 0.75
00:20:19 So there's a difference between a Christian adult and the question of whether or not they can be
00:20:22 on staff at a public school versus a Christian parent sending their child to be trained
00:20:27 by a public school. And if you can be faithful at your public school as a Christian adult on staff
00:20:33 as a teacher, and by the grace of God in that particular public school, you're able to last
00:20:38 more than two or three weeks, maybe you can last two or three years, then fine. This video,
00:20:44 I'm not addressing you. That's not what we're addressing. So I'm not saying that that's wrong,
00:20:47 but I am saying that Christian parents can't send their kids there. Okay. That being said, 1.00
00:20:51 let's go ahead and roll the first clip. These are two short clips. Here's the first.
00:20:56 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say, well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are
00:21:00 Christians. And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers.
00:21:07 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.
00:21:11 Wow. Let's play it one more time.
00:21:13 I want you guys to catch this. This is important.
00:21:15 We're going to play the clip one more time. Here we go.
00:21:17 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say,
00:21:19 well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are Christians.
00:21:22 And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed
00:21:26 to all different kinds of teachers,
00:21:28 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.
00:21:32 So what Jen Wilkin is saying, right, 0.98
00:21:33 She's basically, she's acknowledging one of the fallacious arguments that Christians often make 0.93
00:21:40 in order to defend their position of sending their kids to a public school. One of those 0.99
00:21:45 fallacious arguments is this, well, my public school is different. My public school, you know,
00:21:50 all the teachers there are Christians. Number one, statistically, that is highly unlikely, 1.00
00:21:56 if not just downright impossible. But let's just humor that for a second and say maybe,
00:22:01 okay you have the one public school in america where all the teachers are christian there would
00:22:05 still be problems with that one because okay they may be christian teachers but but it's not just
00:22:12 we don't just want christians in education for our children we want them to receive a christian
00:22:19 education not just christians giving a pagan education there's a difference between a christian
00:22:25 teacher giving a non-christian education versus a christian teacher giving a christian education
00:22:32 a christian education meaning that the basis for all truth and everything that our children are
00:22:37 being taught is that jesus is lord that for him and through him and by him all things were created
00:22:45 and are being held together right they're not just receiving a a education from a christian but
00:22:52 they're receiving a Christian education from a Christian. So that's one of the arguments against
00:22:56 that. Votie Bauckham has dealt with that. So one, every teacher in your school is not a Christian.
00:23:02 That is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible. Number two, even if they were, 0.99
00:23:07 do you have Christians, right? Christian teachers, but are they giving a Christian education? Or is
00:23:12 it Christian teachers giving a non-Christian education? Well, Jen Wilkin doesn't even deal 1.00
00:23:16 with this. What she's doing, making it seem, right? It makes it appear as though she has 1.00
00:23:21 more of a viable argument. She's saying, well, I recognize that that, you know, that, that argument
00:23:25 that Christians who utilize public schools for their children, like I do, like I did when my
00:23:30 children were in school, I realized that one of the arguments they use is they say, well, our
00:23:34 school's different or all the teachers are Christians. And I recognize that that's a 1.00
00:23:37 fallacious argument. I would never dream of making such an argument. Okay. Well then,
00:23:43 then what is your argument? And so she actually argues the opposite. She actually says,
00:23:47 i actually see it as a virtue i see it as something positive something good um i want
00:23:53 my kids right that's the language notice that's the language that she uses she said i don't want
00:23:57 my kids to only have christian teachers i want them to have all kinds of teachers but all kinds
00:24:03 of teachers in this particular i want my kids to have a lot of different types of teachers
00:24:06 right i want my kids to have a teacher who specializes in science a teacher who specializes
00:24:11 in history teacher that specializes in literature um but but that's not what she's saying she's not
00:24:16 saying literature and science and, and, you know, I want them also to get some practical training
00:24:21 and welding. No, she's saying different kinds of teachers, meaning there's Christian kinds. And
00:24:26 then I want the non-Christian kinds also. No, I don't want that. I don't want that for my kids. 1.00
00:24:33 I don't want Christian teachers for my kids and then non-Christian teachers for my kids, 1.00
00:24:37 but Jen Wilkin does. She does. And that's, that's the argument she makes. And then right there at 1.00
00:24:43 the end what she ties on on the end is she says and then i'll parent them through it let's play
00:24:47 the clip one more time i want you to hear that here we go i'll hear a lot um from parents who
00:24:53 will say well it's a public school but all the teachers are christians and i'm like well i i
00:24:58 want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers and then i can parent them
00:25:03 through whatever those are so let me give you an illustration here that hopefully will be helpful
00:25:09 the illustration is this um if i was going to enroll my children in mma fighting which i won't
00:25:23 just for the record that's a video for another day um but let's say i'm going to enroll my
00:25:29 children in mma fighting classes to be trained um i do want my my kids to be trained in self-defense
00:25:35 and all those kinds of things but i think there's a difference in teaching them self-defense
00:25:39 versus encouraging them to mar the image of God,
00:25:44 the Imago Dei, by pounding somebody's face in
00:25:47 for sport as a competition.
00:25:50 That being said, if I was going to enroll my children
00:25:54 in MMA fighting techniques and classes,
00:25:59 jujitsu, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, whatever,
00:26:04 and we're talking about little children,
00:26:06 public school, starting with kindergarten,
00:26:08 right at this point you know people send their kids to preschool in the public school system
00:26:12 but let's just say kindergarten five years old kindergarten i would not enroll my child in mma
00:26:19 training as a five-year-old and drop them off at the gym right because remember jen jen wilkins 0.64
00:26:25 she's not sitting in class with her kids she's dropping them off i wouldn't drop my five-year-old
00:26:31 daughter off at MMA fighting training and knowing that part of the training is not just that my
00:26:38 five-year-old boy son or daughter is going to be sparring with other five-year-olds
00:26:43 but but that part of the training is that that my five-year-old is going to get in the ring
00:26:49 with a full-grown adult and they're going to fight them that full-grown adult is going to
00:26:58 start wailing on my child. They're going to be up against the ropes. And a 29-year-old
00:27:05 feminist is going to be wailing on my five-year-old daughter. And I'm at work 1.00
00:27:12 somewhere. I'm not even there. But when they get home, I'm going to parent them through it.
00:27:17 Right? So when my child gets home and they're battered and bruised and bleeding,
00:27:21 hopefully still alive but battered and bruised and bleeding then i'll i'll parent them through it
00:27:28 that's that's the equivalent no no that's that's not how christian parents parent
00:27:35 no that's no you're not you're going to parent them through it but but what are you parenting
00:27:40 them through you don't know what just happened you weren't there you weren't there you're going
00:27:46 to parent them through your five-year-old's recollection of what happened. But that teacher
00:27:54 with you out of the room, with you out not even being present, that pagan teacher who hates
00:27:58 God, if they're not a Christian. And again, I'm using her argument because her argument is she
00:28:02 wants different kinds of teachers. She wants non-Christian teachers. So she wants pagan 0.79
00:28:07 Christian or pagan teachers. And according to the word of God, there is no neutrality. There's no
00:28:12 indifference, right? Romans chapter eight says the mind of the sinful man is hostile, not just
00:28:17 neutral, not just indifferent, not uninterested, but hostile at enmity toward God and his law.
00:28:23 He does not submit to God's law, nor can he. He's unwilling to submit to the truth of God,
00:28:28 God's law, the way that God made the world. The pagan mind is unwilling to submit to God's law 1.00
00:28:34 and unable. He does not, he cannot. And so what you're advocating for right now is you're saying 0.99
00:28:41 that you actually don't want your children to be trained and formed and shaped and taught 0.78
00:28:47 in a Christian paideia by Christian teachers. But you actually see it as not just something
00:28:53 that we stomach, not just something that we put up with, but as a virtue, as a positive aspect of
00:29:00 your children's formation, that they be trained by God-hating pagans with you not there. So you
00:29:08 got a God-hating pagan giving a God-hating worldview that essentially right now, and 0.96
00:29:14 not just for 15 minutes, but for eight hours. 0.84
00:29:17 And while you're gone for eight hours, you have a God-hating teacher providing a God-hating
00:29:24 curriculum, God-hating worldview with your five-year-old.
00:29:28 So they're in the ring, and this grown adult is wailing on them, but you're going to parent
00:29:33 them through it on the backside.
00:29:35 you're going to somehow salvage this um after the fact uh based off of working from your five-year-old
00:29:41 your six-year-old your seven-year-old's recollection of of the fight that they just had
00:29:47 and how they got pummeled and and one you're counting on your five-year-old to be able to
00:29:52 to call this to memory um and and hopefully they were conscious even for this fight they were
00:29:59 getting destroyed they were getting pummeled um but you're gonna you're gonna work them through
00:30:04 you're going to parent them through it um no you're not you're not um no this is a bad idea
00:30:12 this is not a good faith position that christians can take it's not it's not we don't subject our
00:30:19 children your child is not a missionary and see that's part of the argument right so jim wilkin
00:30:25 she she's aware of some of the arguments that have failed that have been thoroughly dismantled
00:30:30 by guys like Voodie Bauckham.
00:30:32 And so she doesn't even attempt to make them, right?
00:30:34 She tries to make these new arguments, right? 0.81
00:30:37 The Christian parents, one of her arguments 0.94
00:30:39 is that they should put their kids 0.91
00:30:40 in the public school system
00:30:41 because what about all those other kids
00:30:43 that would just be left?
00:30:45 Well, yeah, that is tragic.
00:30:48 That is tragic.
00:30:49 But your chief responsibility, Christian,
00:30:52 is for your kids, your kids, right?
00:30:55 I mean, apply that same logic and say,
00:30:57 well, there are children that are starving.
00:30:59 and so i i mean i i can't i can't put my children you know in front of a table that has food i can't
00:31:05 you know i none like if every christian you know part at one point in the good faith debate she
00:31:11 says if every christian took uh their children out of the public school all all at the same time
00:31:16 um imagine the the collapse and the the calamity and and and how harmful it would be for all these
00:31:23 kids who are left behind. And I would respond to that and say, praise God. Praise God. Not praise
00:31:31 God in the sense of it's good that this would have negative impact on these other children.
00:31:35 I would actually argue that I don't think that would be the result. I think the result would be
00:31:39 if every faithful Christian, everybody who professes the name of Christ and claims to be 0.97
00:31:45 a Christian started behaving in a faithful manner and took their kids out of the public school
00:31:48 system, even in the state of California, you have 10 million, 42 million is the population,
00:31:54 give or take, 10 million of those residents profess to be Christians. If 10 million, a quarter,
00:32:00 25, and that's California, right? So if you take the nation as a whole, it would be over a quarter
00:32:05 of the population takes their kids out of the public school system, well, the public school
00:32:09 system would collapse. It would be done. It would implode. And we would be forced to come up with
00:32:16 other options. And I do believe that the vast majority of these alternative options would be
00:32:23 better than the current situation, better than the state-run atheistic schools that we currently
00:32:29 have. So the idea of making the argument saying, well, of course, we can't say that the children
00:32:36 of Christians are missionaries, right? Of course not. We can't make that argument. The reason she's
00:32:41 not making that argument for the record is because that argument was made by Christians to support
00:32:46 sending kids to public schools, that argument was made ad nauseum for decades. And it has been
00:32:52 proven and dismantled so thoroughly by this point that Jen Wilkin just doesn't even have
00:32:59 the gall to even make the argument because it's been so thoroughly disproven. Your children are
00:33:06 not to be treated as missionaries. They're training. I mean, even when it comes to 18,
00:33:12 19, 20-year-old young adults who enlist in the military, they go to boot camp. And boot camp
00:33:21 is thousands of miles away from actual warfare that's taking place. And yes, it's rigorous,
00:33:28 and yes, it's difficult, but it's controlled, and it's protected, and it's defended. We don't even
00:33:35 send someone into who's a young adult. We don't send them into battle without first being
00:33:41 trained and the training doesn't happen on the battlefield, it's too late. The training doesn't
00:33:47 happen at war. The training happens in preparation in the controlled environment before war. The
00:33:55 imperative for Christian parents is not to treat their children as missionaries, as spiritual 1.00
00:34:03 soldiers in the war, but rather to train them so that when they're ready, they would be shot out 0.95
00:34:09 like arrows. But those arrows need to be formed first. They need to be sharpened. They need to
00:34:14 be straightened. We need those arrows to be prepared before we shoot them out at the enemy.
00:34:19 Okay, so let's go ahead and play the next clip. I don't want to covertly take over the public
00:34:26 schools and make them Christian schools, although I value the ethics that that would involve being
00:34:33 in place in the public schools. But I think that because they're public schools, 0.56
00:34:38 they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn't. 0.98
00:34:45 No. Okay. First, I do want to take over public schools. Now I agree. I don't want to covertly 0.96
00:34:52 take over public schools. I want to overtly take over public schools. I want the public school and
00:34:57 I want the United States of America, I want the general public to be fully aware of what the
00:35:03 Christian's intention is. And that intention is that, yes, we want to take over public schools. 0.90
00:35:10 We want to see them shut down. We want to see them shut down. I believe that the public school
00:35:15 system in America is past the point of being redeemed, that it needs to be shut down. We
00:35:21 talk about some institutions. You can go inside and try to recapture some institutions. And other
00:35:27 institutions like high places in Israel. They need to be burned to the ground, and a temple to the 1.00
00:35:34 Lord needs to be built right on top of the ashes. I think the public school system in America today
00:35:38 in 2023 would be an example of an institution that needs to be abandoned, and it ultimately
00:35:44 needs to be overcome. It needs to be conquered. It needs to be conquered. So, well, she's saying,
00:35:50 know, well, I don't want to take over the public school system. Well, I do. I do. And I want to do
00:35:57 it from the outside. Or from the inside, I want to see faithful Christian adults at the school
00:36:04 board meeting. I want to see faithful Christian adults, but not from the inside by sending in 0.89
00:36:08 our secret agent, six-year-old. Now, your six-year-old child is not meant to be sent in 0.97
00:36:17 by Christian parents as the TKO weapon to take down the public school. So I do want to overtake 1.00
00:36:26 the public school system. I don't want to covertly do it. I don't want to do it deceptively. I want
00:36:30 to do it overtly and say, yeah, this is wrong. And by God's grace, if he would be so gracious,
00:36:36 he's going to empower us by his spirit through both law and gospel to take this down and to set
00:36:42 up better Christian alternatives. But the last thing that she said in that clip, I want to play 0.70
00:36:47 it for you guys one more time, but the last thing she said in that clip is not just, I don't want
00:36:50 to take them down, but basically saying, I don't want to take them down because the general public
00:36:55 needs them. There are non-Christians and these non-Christians need this non-Christian education 1.00
00:37:01 because it's good for the general public. It's good for society. Play the clip again. 1.00
00:37:07 I don't want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools. 0.64
00:37:12 schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve being in place in
00:37:17 the public schools.
00:37:19 But I think that because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population in 1.00
00:37:25 a way that a Christian school doesn't. 1.00
00:37:28 Because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population, right? 0.56
00:37:32 She's essentially saying because it's a public school, it needs to serve the general public 0.98
00:37:35 in a way that a Christian school doesn't.
00:37:39 is um that is a pivotal fallacy no a christian school if it's truly christian it serves the
00:37:47 general public better than a public school than an atheistic pagan school period the point that
00:37:56 i'm making is this a christian school is not just better for um christian children or the children
00:38:02 of christian parents it's better for everyone the law of god is good holy and right it's not just
00:38:11 the morally right thing it's the good thing triple braided cord truth goodness and beauty if it's
00:38:17 true it is beautiful if it's true it is beneficial it is good the right thing is the good thing and
00:38:25 the thing that is truly good for society for human flourishing is also that which aligns with the
00:38:31 law of God and is morally right. Christian schools, hear me, Christian schools are not just
00:38:38 a necessity for the children of Christian parents. Christian schools are a practical,
00:38:45 not just spiritual, it's that, certainly, but also a practical benefit to everyone.
00:38:54 Everyone. Salt and light benefits everyone. The gospel of Jesus Christ benefits everyone.
00:39:01 It is better to be an atheist living in a Christian society with Christian principles 0.87
00:39:07 and Christian law and Christian civil magistrates. 0.90
00:39:11 Better to be a non-Christian in a Christian society than to be not only a Christian in 0.86
00:39:18 a non-Christian society, but even a non-Christian in a non-Christian society. 0.91
00:39:23 Pagans do not fare well in pagan societies.
00:39:27 The Christian worldview is good for everyone.
00:39:31 When the tide rises, it lifts all the boats.
00:39:34 This Christian ethic that she mentions in passing, she says, well, while I see that
00:39:39 a Christian ethic would be good, the implication that she gives in that clip is she's saying,
00:39:44 she's subtly implying that a Christian ethic, a Christian education, Christian school would
00:39:49 teach a Christian ethic and that would be good.
00:39:51 But what she's implying is that it would be good for Christians, that it would be exclusively
00:39:56 good for Christians.
00:39:57 But we live in a society where, you know, not everybody's Christian.
00:40:01 there there's a general public and and there are people who are not christian so they need
00:40:05 non-christians need non-christian schools for their good no the gospel is good for everyone
00:40:11 the law of god is good for everyone the christian paideia is good for every child
00:40:18 every child a child of unbelievers or child of believers both will benefit by being trained up
00:40:27 in the fear and admonition of the Lord. What is true is that which is good. And I mean universally
00:40:35 good. Universally good. That which is true, aligning with God's word and what God says is true,
00:40:42 is going to be that which is good. And not just good for some people. It's not if we cling to the
00:40:47 truth, it'll benefit the church. No, if we cling to the truth, it benefits the church. It will
00:40:53 uniquely benefit the people of God. That's true. But the truth of God, his ways, his law, his
00:41:00 principles, his gospel, it doesn't just uniquely benefit the church, but it also universally
00:41:06 benefits all image bearers. All people benefit. One of the most loving things that we can do,
00:41:14 not just for our own children, not just for Christian children or children of Christian
00:41:18 households, but benefit all children. One of the best ways that you can love your neighbor
00:41:25 is by not just obeying the law of God, but ensuring in the public square that the law of
00:41:31 God is adhered to by the civil public, the civil square. When a Christian votes for certain laws,
00:41:38 right? So as an abolitionist, when it comes to the issue of abortion, I want to work towards 0.87
00:41:47 penalties for abortion. And not just penalties for the abortion doctor, but penalties for the mother 0.74
00:41:53 who goes to have her unborn child murdered and consents to that murder, is complicit in that
00:42:00 murder, and the father, if he consents to that. I want penalties for him too. I don't want just
00:42:05 abortion to be unavailable. I don't want abortion just to be illegal. I want abortion to be
00:42:12 criminalized. I want there to be penalties, equal penalties, not just some penalties, 0.99
00:42:17 but whatever the penalty would be for a mother taking her three-year-old child to a back alley 0.96
00:42:22 with a hitman and paying him to shoot that child in the head and murder them in cold blood. I want 1.00
00:42:28 that, whatever that penalty is, I want that same penalty for a mother who goes to an abortion 0.99
00:42:34 doctor and drags her baby by virtue of it being in her womb and pays him in order to kill her 0.99
00:42:40 unborn child. I want the same penalty, equal penalties. Equal penalties, here's the argument, 0.97
00:42:45 real short. Equal penalties ensures equal protection. You cannot say that it's equal
00:42:50 protection if it's not an equal penalty. So equal penalties is equal protection, and equal
00:42:55 protection is necessary in order to actually back up the argument of equal dignity, equal sanctity,
00:43:02 equal value. If you're going to say that the child in the womb really is a child, that they really
00:43:07 are a human being that they really are an image bearer not half of an image bearer but a whole
00:43:12 image bearer a whole human if you're going to attribute to the unborn child um 100 personhood
00:43:18 as an image bearer the living god created in the image of god with the full sanctity of life
00:43:24 if you're going to say equal value for the unborn then then to back that statement up to say we
00:43:29 value the unborn just as much as those who are born then you have to say equal value means then
00:43:34 we ensure equal protections. And if it's going to be equal protections, it has to be equal penalties.
00:43:40 Now, if I vote for a law like that, or I give my vote for a political candidate who's given a
00:43:47 promise to ensure and put down bills on the table to try to pass laws like that, that benefits
00:43:54 everyone. I'm not just doing that because I think it's good for Christians. No, I'm doing that for
00:44:00 children in the womb who very well may be born and grow up and live their entire lives from birth
00:44:08 to death and never receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior through faith. And yet it's still in
00:44:15 their benefit. They're temporal, physical. In this life, it is to their good. It is to their benefit.
00:44:21 And so I'm going to support laws in the civil sphere, in the public square, when it comes to
00:44:27 education public education when it comes to legislation and laws i am going to support that
00:44:33 which aligns with the moral transcendent universal law of god because it's right it's true and
00:44:40 therefore it is also good and practically beneficial not just for christian people
00:44:44 or christian children but for all people and all children the christian ethic no my argument is
00:44:51 jen wilkin is wrong my argument is not that well there there are christians and they can have their
00:44:56 christian schools but there are non-christians and so they need non-christian schools no the
00:44:59 christian ethic that should come from a faithful christian school benefits everyone whether they're
00:45:04 christian or not because it's right and it's true so this good faith debate was not helpful
00:45:12 again at best it muddies the water and confuses christian parents and at worst it assuages the 0.99
00:45:20 consciences of Christian mothers and fathers to the point that it would allow them to enlist
00:45:26 their children in 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination. And that is a sin. Thanks for 0.92
00:45:33 tuning in. Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look, some of you
00:45:38 guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you.
00:45:43 I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact,
00:45:51 some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's
00:45:56 ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last 0.97
00:46:05 three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if
00:46:13 people change the definition of a recession, we are living in a recession right now regardless.
00:46:20 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support
00:46:26 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.
00:46:33 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a
00:46:40 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.
00:46:47 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves but shrewd as vipers. We need
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00:47:00 word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of life gets out
00:47:08 there. Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.