The NXR Podcast - February 23, 2023


BONUS EPISODE - Jen Wilkin, The Gospel Coalition, & Public School “Debate”


Episode Stats


Length

47 minutes

Words per minute

169.80612

Word count

8,014

Sentence count

373

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

88

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 All right, listen, guys. I get it. Many of you are unable to financially support this ministry
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00:00:40.640 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and I'm doing a quick
00:00:44.700 live video right now. It's Tuesday. I typically don't go live and do videos like this on just a
00:00:51.440 random day of the week, but I couldn't let this one slide. Yesterday, the Gospel Coalition released
00:00:56.720 a good faith debate between Jen Wilkin and Jonathan Pennington, Jen Wilkin and Jonathan
00:01:04.520 Pennington over the topic of whether or not Christian parents should utilize public schools
00:01:10.460 for their children, whether or not Christian parents should send their kids to public state-run
00:01:17.480 schools. And the first thing that I want to say, I'm going to play a couple clips from the debate,
00:01:21.720 Just two very brief clips, both coming from Jen Wilkin and her position, her arguments.
00:01:28.040 It's not really an argument, but her position that she conveys.
00:01:31.940 I'm going to show those two clips.
00:01:33.080 I'm going to break them down and give you my thoughts.
00:01:34.720 But before, I just want to address this concept of a good faith debate.
00:01:39.200 I'm not saying that it's fallacious or it's ridiculous on every account, but I do think
00:01:43.720 that it is not the proper phrase to be used in this context.
00:01:48.640 Let me give you an example of a good faith debate.
00:01:51.200 good faith debate, what that means, what they're trying to communicate with that phrasing of a
00:01:57.760 good faith debate is saying essentially that the debate is going to be charitable in nature.
00:02:02.640 Its tone is going to be charitable, both sides towards one another. And what makes it good faith
00:02:07.180 is not just a charitable or humble or winsome is probably what the Gospel Coalition would use to
00:02:14.120 describe it, a winsome tone, a winsome manner towards one another. But the good faith phrasing,
00:02:20.040 what that also conveys is that a Christian could take either side of the debate, that both options
00:02:27.240 are viable options according to the scripture, according to the word of God. Now, for instance,
00:02:35.220 let me give you an example of an actual good faith debate. A.D. Robles and I could have a good faith
00:02:40.040 debate about baptism. And that's not because, just for the record, that's not because we're
00:02:43.960 theological relativists. So we're not saying that both positions are biblically faithful positions.
00:02:49.840 No, they're not.
00:02:51.120 We could both be wrong, although I doubt it.
00:02:53.800 I think somebody's right in this particular instance.
00:02:56.040 We could both be wrong, or one of us could be wrong,
00:02:58.720 but we both can't be right about baptism.
00:03:02.080 Pado-baptism or credo-baptism, right?
00:03:03.940 You either can baptize babies or you can't.
00:03:07.280 You're either sprinkling or it's immersion.
00:03:10.680 Your understanding of the covenants, the new covenant,
00:03:13.120 nature of the new covenant,
00:03:14.080 is it regenerate church membership only,
00:03:17.160 regenerate in order to be positioned?
00:03:18.980 what's the door into the new covenant? I believe as somebody who is a Baptist, barely, most of my
00:03:25.580 friends these days tend to be Presbyterians and I've kind of have my given by them. I've been
00:03:30.060 given, you know, my honorary Presbyterian card, but in regards to baptism, I do hold to a credo
00:03:37.120 Baptist position. I believe that the door is faith. The door into the new covenant is faith. And yes,
00:03:43.920 I do see for the record, the continuity between the old covenant with Israel, the nation state
00:03:48.760 of israel and circumcision and the continuity between circumcision under the old covenant and
00:03:54.120 baptism for the new however i think that what matters is the timing that timing is important so
00:04:00.780 baptism for belonging in the new covenant likened to circumcision for belonging in the old covenant
00:04:06.400 yes and amen i'm right there with you but what gains you entrance right there are different
00:04:11.340 modes yes ruth could could become a part of the old covenant and join israel your people will be
00:04:16.100 my people. Your God will be my God, even though she wasn't Israel by natural birth. So there are
00:04:21.160 other ways in, but the predominant way into the old covenant was birth, physical birth. So after
00:04:27.540 physical birth, the Hebrew male on the eighth day would be circumcised because they've been entered 1.00
00:04:32.560 in. They've gained entrance into the old covenant by virtue of their natural birth. Well, in the
00:04:38.020 same way, when it comes to the new covenant, the way in is new birth. And so we apply the signs and
00:04:43.920 seals of baptism of the Lord's Supper right after entrance into the new covenant, which comes by
00:04:49.140 new birth or spiritual birth rather than old birth, physical birth. So that is continuity,
00:04:54.440 and yet we disagree in regards to the timing. Now, that could be a good faith debate.
00:04:59.380 That could be a good faith debate. Good faith not meaning that we could both be right,
00:05:03.780 but meaning that there's a legitimate biblical argument to be made on both sides of the issue.
00:05:10.960 there are legitimate paedo-baptist theologians throughout the ages for centuries now and there
00:05:19.340 are legitimate and i know the presbyterians are going to disagree but there are legitimate
00:05:23.500 credo-baptist arguments and theologians who have made those arguments for centuries now the 1689
00:05:30.980 is is not a trifle it's a legitimate reformed confession it is historical nehemiah cox is not
00:05:39.920 someone to scoff at. Benjamin Keech is not someone to scoff at. John Gill. There are legitimate
00:05:46.180 people and legitimate arguments made from the scripture to back up this position. Modern guys
00:05:52.100 who are living today, James White. On the other side of the debate, you've got guys like R.C.
00:05:57.920 Sproul. You've got guys like Doug Wilson. In the same way, the 1646, the Westminster Confession of
00:06:04.320 Faith is not a trifle. It is not something to be mocked. There are faithful guys on both positions.
00:06:09.220 that doesn't mean both are right because we're not relativists. These positions contradict one
00:06:13.380 another. They cannot be simultaneously true. Either they're both wrong or one position is
00:06:18.460 wrong, but they both can't be right. And yet we can have a good faith debate on that particular
00:06:24.220 topic because there is a reasonable argument to be made from what we understand about the
00:06:29.860 scripture. When it comes to Christians putting their children in public schools today in America,
00:06:36.340 right? Because you got to give a little bit of context with this debate. Jen Wilkin and the
00:06:40.120 position that she's arguing for is not public schools somewhere else on the other side of the 0.74
00:06:45.460 world. And it's not public schools in a different period of time, public schools in America 50 years
00:06:50.920 ago. She's talking about putting her kids in public school, which she did. And she says that
00:06:56.600 in this debate. And she says that given the option that she would do it again today in 2023 in
00:07:04.420 America she would put her children in the public school system today and what this is doing right
00:07:09.780 it makes me think of the Hegelian dialect right this well it's a typical gospel coalition third
00:07:16.320 wayism kind of thing that that ultimately really really what I think that accomplishes and I think
00:07:21.120 this is maybe not for everybody but I think some of the people with the gospel coalition this is
00:07:25.040 actually the intent I won't say for everyone some people could be just ignorance but I think some
00:07:30.480 people, there actually is a malicious intent. What they're trying to accomplish with this third
00:07:34.900 way argumentation is compromise. Because not in every instance, but with this instance about
00:07:42.840 public school and Christians utilizing public schools for their children, you're talking about 0.70
00:07:46.980 one position that's correct and another position that's wrong. The position that's correct is that 1.00
00:07:52.420 the children of Christians should not be in public schools. That is right. They should not. 1.00
00:07:56.500 The position that is incorrect is the position that Jen Wilkin is arguing for, that Christian 0.98
00:08:01.960 parents can send their kids to public school today in America in 2023.
00:08:08.160 That is wrong.
00:08:09.480 So a third-way position somewhere in between is simply compromise.
00:08:14.900 It's one thing's right, one thing's wrong. 1.00
00:08:17.600 In a best-case scenario, you're assuaging the consciences of Christians to adopt a position 0.79
00:08:23.920 that's partly wrong. 0.98
00:08:25.520 maybe they land somewhere in between so it's just some compromise it's just some unfaithfulness
00:08:30.880 worst case scenario is is that you go all the way to jen wilkins position and you're assuaging the
00:08:37.080 consciences of christian fathers and christian mothers um to to put their kids in public school
00:08:44.080 40 hours a week from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade um which is a massive amount
00:08:50.260 of compromise that is a massive amount of what i believe according to the scripture is unfaithful
00:08:55.260 So just even the framing, that's my first point, the framing of this debate, calling
00:09:00.140 it a good faith debate, what that implies or really outright expresses is that a legitimate,
00:09:08.300 reasonable argument from the scripture, from a Christian worldview could be made to support
00:09:13.100 either position.
00:09:14.640 And that is wrong.
00:09:15.900 That is incorrect.
00:09:17.200 And I'm not alone in saying this.
00:09:18.760 I'm not just being hardcore.
00:09:20.500 Doug Wilson would agree with my position and say that, yes, there is not a valid, reasonable 0.78
00:09:28.060 biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing public schools with their children. 0.97
00:09:33.640 Votie Bauckham would be another example. Votie Bauckham has said for decades now that if you
00:09:39.020 send your kids to Caesar, you cannot pretend to be surprised when they come back as Romans.
00:09:45.360 And so I would argue that this is a position that should not be framed as a good faith 0.71
00:09:51.040 position, a position that a Christian could take within the realm of faithfulness.
00:09:56.360 No, it is not somehow faithful or a different shade of faithfulness. 0.98
00:10:00.700 No, it is faithless.
00:10:02.520 It is wrong.
00:10:03.600 It is morally unpermissible.
00:10:06.240 Now, that being said, let me read a text here.
00:10:09.620 This is Ephesians chapter 6, verses 1 through 4.
00:10:11.920 It says, children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
00:10:15.260 Honor your father and mother.
00:10:16.860 This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you
00:10:21.120 may live long in the land.
00:10:23.160 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but rather bring them up in the discipline
00:10:29.580 and instruction of the Lord.
00:10:32.120 Fathers have a moral obligation under God to raise their children in the discipline
00:10:37.680 and instruction of the Lord.
00:10:39.420 The Greek word that's used there is paideia.
00:10:41.920 It means the instruction, the tutelage, the teaching, the curriculum, that God has a
00:10:47.940 curriculum for children.
00:10:50.300 There is a Christian curriculum for children that they must be trained up in.
00:10:56.920 They must be trained up in.
00:10:58.240 And I'm starting with this text to make this argument, and I'm going to show a couple
00:11:01.640 clips and break them down. 0.98
00:11:03.720 The argument that I'm making is that the moral imperative for Christian parents in not sending 0.63
00:11:08.940 their kids to public schools is not merely that Christians have an obligation to protect 0.76
00:11:14.700 their children from falsehoods, to protect their children from perversion, right?
00:11:21.420 It's not just that a Christian father and mother, but the father primarily as head of
00:11:26.240 the household, it's not only that he has a moral obligation under God as a Christian
00:11:30.740 father to see to it that his children avoid pagan indoctrination, to see to it that his
00:11:38.040 children are guarded and protected from critical race theory, from LGBT jihad agenda. It's not only 0.76
00:11:46.140 that he has to ensure that his children don't receive pagan education, but it's also that he
00:11:52.320 has a moral imperative placed upon him as the head of the household by God himself to ensure that his 0.87
00:11:58.600 children, not just that they avoid this bad thing, but that they are properly and thoroughly trained
00:12:04.240 up in, immersed in this good thing. What is the good thing? It's God's curriculum. It is the
00:12:09.780 Christian curriculum. It is the biblical worldview. And the point is this, if you are going to fulfill
00:12:17.280 the commandment that is given to fathers in scripture by God himself, not to provoke your
00:12:23.560 children to anger, but to bring them up, to raise them up, train them up, immerse them in the
00:12:28.660 discipline and instruction of the Lord to enlist them, enroll them in the paideia, the Christian
00:12:34.900 curriculum that God has given to us in his holy word that fathers must raise their children up in.
00:12:41.040 If you're going to do that, one practical requirement is time. Fathers, listen to me,
00:12:47.020 Christian fathers, you are not going to be able to raise your children up in the fear and admonition 0.87
00:12:53.240 of the Lord, the paideia of the Lord, with your 15-minute-a-day family worship in the evenings. 0.97
00:12:59.520 After your children get home from their eight hours a day, five days a week for 13 years,
00:13:06.800 kindergarten through 12th grade, you're not going to be able to enlist your children in 15,000 hours.
00:13:14.840 That's how much it amounts to. You're not going to be able to enlist your children, enroll them in
00:13:19.180 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination, and then with 15 minutes in the evening, and then an hour 0.96
00:13:27.460 and a half on the Lord's day, be able to sufficiently and thoroughly and biblically 0.68
00:13:32.040 raise your children up in the Christian paideia. So it's twofold. One, you do have an obligation.
00:13:39.940 Fathers are to provide and protect. Those are the two primary categories of a fatherly duty as head
00:13:45.860 of the household when it comes to your wife and when it comes to your children you must provide
00:13:49.580 for them spiritually provide from for them physically practically put food on the table
00:13:54.380 put a roof over their head clothe them right a father has an obligation to work out of outside
00:14:00.160 the home in such a way that he's able to protect his children and provide for his children physically
00:14:05.080 and spiritually and when it comes to spiritual protection one thing that a father has to do
00:14:10.320 is take his children to church
00:14:12.760 and make sure that he takes them
00:14:14.300 to a biblically faithful, orthodox, robust church
00:14:18.080 and not a he gets us compromised, 0.94
00:14:22.840 seeker-friendly, watered-down megachurch, right?
00:14:27.100 So he protects them physically.
00:14:29.500 He also protects them spiritually.
00:14:31.680 Well, in the same way that a father has an obligation 0.85
00:14:33.580 not to lead his family to a heretical church, 0.90
00:14:36.060 he cannot put his kids in 15,000 hours
00:14:39.100 of a heretical school.
00:14:40.320 for any christian father who says i would never take and see this is the compromise this is the
00:14:47.160 blatant hypocrisy for any christian father who cares about sound doctrine who would say i would
00:14:53.060 never take my children and my wife and and enroll our family as members in a in a heretical um of
00:15:01.540 false doctrine false teaching word of faith prosperity gospel seeker friendly megachurch
00:15:07.480 for an hour and 15 minutes once a week on sunday but i will put them in a public school for 40
00:15:15.540 hours a week monday through friday that is a contradiction so the point is this it's twofold
00:15:21.380 not only do fathers have an obligation to provide and protect on the protection side to protect
00:15:26.780 their children to ensure that their children avoid pagan indoctrination fathers also have
00:15:33.080 an obligation not just to make sure that their children are protected from getting something
00:15:37.240 that's bad but to instill in their children something that is good not just protect but
00:15:43.140 provide they must provide a christian education and if your children for the very brief window
00:15:50.200 of time that you have them in your home with you approximately give or take 18 years during those
00:15:57.220 18 years when your children father christian father are under your roof that they're under 0.74
00:16:02.320 your roof, they're in your home, you cannot afford, you simply cannot afford 15,000 hours 0.97
00:16:08.900 for them to be in a public school and expect with any reasonable expectation that you're
00:16:16.560 going to sufficiently and thoroughly be able to train them up in the fear and abomination 0.98
00:16:21.340 of the Lord, the discipline and instruction of the Lord, the Christian curriculum, because 0.52
00:16:25.900 a Christian curriculum, if it is to be thorough, if it is to be faithful, it requires far more
00:16:32.300 than your 15 minutes a day of family worship in the evening it is a a full-time endeavor right
00:16:39.180 so that's the first thing um so i don't i think i think that the framing is at best ignorant and
00:16:45.720 at worst downright deceptive of calling this a good faith debate because what that implies
00:16:51.960 or outright conveys is that a christian can reasonably and permissibly take both sides
00:16:59.060 both positions in this debate? And the answer is no. There is not, biblically speaking,
00:17:09.080 in America in 2023, there is not a biblical argument to be made for Christians utilizing
00:17:16.940 public schools. And back in the day, just for the record, public schools, the reason why there 0.96
00:17:22.100 were Catholic schools early on in America and not a bunch of Protestant schools is because
00:17:26.800 essentially, this doesn't mean that there weren't problems back then, but there was a dynamic
00:17:30.720 difference between then and now. Primarily, the public schools were the Protestant schools.
00:17:36.720 Not only was there prayer in public schools, not only was there Bible in public schools,
00:17:41.240 there were catechisms in public schools in America. There were catechisms. That is long gone.
00:17:49.400 Long gone. So the argument that I'm making is that parents today, and I would say for really
00:17:55.320 for a few decades now, but especially in 2023, in the United States of America, a Christian parent 0.76
00:18:01.060 does not have a biblical leg to stand on when it comes to sending their kids to 15,000 hours 0.62
00:18:09.220 of public school curriculum. That's just simply not a good faith position that a Christian 0.99
00:18:15.920 can take today. Last disclaimer, and then I'll show the clip. Last disclaimer I want to make 0.99
00:18:20.600 real quick is a part of the the good faith debate uh they get into the the concept of well what
00:18:26.340 about uh christians um on staff at public schools christian adults who are a teacher in a public
00:18:32.280 school or um they're you know an administrator in a public school or or a principal you know
00:18:38.020 or on the school board or these kinds of things that's entirely different uh different that's
00:18:42.300 distinct from a parent sending their children to a public school for their formation for being
00:18:47.720 shaped, for being trained. There's a difference in an adult Christian going behind enemy lines
00:18:54.840 to make a difference versus an adult Christian sending their six-year-old child behind enemy
00:19:01.520 lines for training. Let me say that again. There is a dynamic difference between an adult Christian 0.80
00:19:07.680 going behind enemy lines to fight, to wage warfare, versus a Christian parent sending their
00:19:15.040 six-year-old child behind enemy lines to be shaped and formed and trained. That's dynamically 0.73
00:19:21.080 different. Doug Wilson has said it like this even recently in one of his blogs. He said,
00:19:25.260 can a Christian adult be a teacher at a public school? He said, yes, you just have to do so 1.00
00:19:29.840 faithfully. So you can't get up there and say evolution is true. We all evolved out of this
00:19:35.900 primordial soup and fish became lizards and lizards became whatever, apes and apes became
00:19:42.980 man. You can't do that. It's not faithful. You can't lie to children. Christians, right? I mean,
00:19:48.940 that's ultimately the question that we're asking. Can Christians, is it a viable Christian position 0.72
00:19:53.040 to say that Christian adults can lie to children? No, of course not. So Doug Wilson, his position
00:19:58.540 was saying, yes, a Christian can be in a public school as a teacher, a Christian adult, but they
00:20:03.420 have to do so Christianly. They have to do so as a Christian. And he said, so you can work in a
00:20:08.680 public school for approximately two to three weeks. Because if you do so faithfully, you'll
00:20:13.920 probably get fired. So it's not that a Christian can't do it, but a Christian has to do it faithfully. 0.75
00:20:19.040 So there's a difference between a Christian adult and the question of whether or not they can be
00:20:22.380 on staff at a public school versus a Christian parent sending their child to be trained
00:20:27.540 by a public school. And if you can be faithful at your public school as a Christian adult on staff
00:20:33.120 as a teacher, and by the grace of God in that particular public school, you're able to last
00:20:38.400 more than two or three weeks, maybe you can last two or three years, then fine. This video,
00:20:44.100 I'm not addressing you. That's not what we're addressing. So I'm not saying that that's wrong,
00:20:47.420 but I am saying that Christian parents can't send their kids there. Okay. That being said, 1.00
00:20:51.320 let's go ahead and roll the first clip. These are two short clips. Here's the first.
00:20:56.800 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say, well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are
00:21:00.920 Christians. And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers.
00:21:07.920 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.
00:21:11.940 Wow. Let's play it one more time.
00:21:13.720 I want you guys to catch this. This is important.
00:21:15.420 We're going to play the clip one more time. Here we go.
00:21:17.760 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say,
00:21:19.980 well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are Christians.
00:21:22.900 And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed
00:21:26.580 to all different kinds of teachers,
00:21:28.840 and then I can parent them through whatever those are.
00:21:32.100 So what Jen Wilkin is saying, right, 0.98
00:21:33.620 She's basically, she's acknowledging one of the fallacious arguments that Christians often make 0.93
00:21:40.060 in order to defend their position of sending their kids to a public school. One of those 0.99
00:21:45.060 fallacious arguments is this, well, my public school is different. My public school, you know,
00:21:50.580 all the teachers there are Christians. Number one, statistically, that is highly unlikely, 1.00
00:21:56.320 if not just downright impossible. But let's just humor that for a second and say maybe,
00:22:01.420 okay you have the one public school in america where all the teachers are christian there would
00:22:05.500 still be problems with that one because okay they may be christian teachers but but it's not just
00:22:12.960 we don't just want christians in education for our children we want them to receive a christian
00:22:19.540 education not just christians giving a pagan education there's a difference between a christian
00:22:25.360 teacher giving a non-christian education versus a christian teacher giving a christian education
00:22:32.060 a christian education meaning that the basis for all truth and everything that our children are
00:22:37.920 being taught is that jesus is lord that for him and through him and by him all things were created
00:22:45.680 and are being held together right they're not just receiving a a education from a christian but
00:22:52.460 they're receiving a Christian education from a Christian. So that's one of the arguments against
00:22:56.640 that. Votie Bauckham has dealt with that. So one, every teacher in your school is not a Christian.
00:23:02.480 That is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible. Number two, even if they were, 0.99
00:23:07.500 do you have Christians, right? Christian teachers, but are they giving a Christian education? Or is
00:23:12.520 it Christian teachers giving a non-Christian education? Well, Jen Wilkin doesn't even deal 1.00
00:23:16.300 with this. What she's doing, making it seem, right? It makes it appear as though she has 1.00
00:23:21.680 more of a viable argument. She's saying, well, I recognize that that, you know, that, that argument
00:23:25.980 that Christians who utilize public schools for their children, like I do, like I did when my
00:23:30.800 children were in school, I realized that one of the arguments they use is they say, well, our
00:23:34.220 school's different or all the teachers are Christians. And I recognize that that's a 1.00
00:23:37.280 fallacious argument. I would never dream of making such an argument. Okay. Well then,
00:23:43.000 then what is your argument? And so she actually argues the opposite. She actually says,
00:23:47.280 i actually see it as a virtue i see it as something positive something good um i want
00:23:53.020 my kids right that's the language notice that's the language that she uses she said i don't want
00:23:57.560 my kids to only have christian teachers i want them to have all kinds of teachers but all kinds
00:24:03.020 of teachers in this particular i want my kids to have a lot of different types of teachers
00:24:06.640 right i want my kids to have a teacher who specializes in science a teacher who specializes
00:24:11.540 in history teacher that specializes in literature um but but that's not what she's saying she's not
00:24:16.340 saying literature and science and, and, you know, I want them also to get some practical training
00:24:21.220 and welding. No, she's saying different kinds of teachers, meaning there's Christian kinds. And
00:24:26.880 then I want the non-Christian kinds also. No, I don't want that. I don't want that for my kids. 1.00
00:24:33.400 I don't want Christian teachers for my kids and then non-Christian teachers for my kids, 1.00
00:24:37.740 but Jen Wilkin does. She does. And that's, that's the argument she makes. And then right there at 1.00
00:24:43.380 the end what she ties on on the end is she says and then i'll parent them through it let's play
00:24:47.860 the clip one more time i want you to hear that here we go i'll hear a lot um from parents who
00:24:53.400 will say well it's a public school but all the teachers are christians and i'm like well i i
00:24:58.760 want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers and then i can parent them
00:25:03.900 through whatever those are so let me give you an illustration here that hopefully will be helpful
00:25:09.840 the illustration is this um if i was going to enroll my children in mma fighting which i won't
00:25:23.340 just for the record that's a video for another day um but let's say i'm going to enroll my
00:25:29.460 children in mma fighting classes to be trained um i do want my my kids to be trained in self-defense
00:25:35.800 and all those kinds of things but i think there's a difference in teaching them self-defense
00:25:39.500 versus encouraging them to mar the image of God,
00:25:44.280 the Imago Dei, by pounding somebody's face in
00:25:47.580 for sport as a competition.
00:25:50.120 That being said, if I was going to enroll my children
00:25:54.180 in MMA fighting techniques and classes,
00:25:59.000 jujitsu, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, whatever,
00:26:04.840 and we're talking about little children,
00:26:06.520 public school, starting with kindergarten,
00:26:08.080 right at this point you know people send their kids to preschool in the public school system
00:26:12.320 but let's just say kindergarten five years old kindergarten i would not enroll my child in mma
00:26:19.120 training as a five-year-old and drop them off at the gym right because remember jen jen wilkins 0.64
00:26:25.980 she's not sitting in class with her kids she's dropping them off i wouldn't drop my five-year-old
00:26:31.200 daughter off at MMA fighting training and knowing that part of the training is not just that my
00:26:38.520 five-year-old boy son or daughter is going to be sparring with other five-year-olds
00:26:43.800 but but that part of the training is that that my five-year-old is going to get in the ring
00:26:49.720 with a full-grown adult and they're going to fight them that full-grown adult is going to
00:26:58.020 start wailing on my child. They're going to be up against the ropes. And a 29-year-old
00:27:05.200 feminist is going to be wailing on my five-year-old daughter. And I'm at work 1.00
00:27:12.720 somewhere. I'm not even there. But when they get home, I'm going to parent them through it.
00:27:17.880 Right? So when my child gets home and they're battered and bruised and bleeding,
00:27:21.760 hopefully still alive but battered and bruised and bleeding then i'll i'll parent them through it
00:27:28.900 that's that's the equivalent no no that's that's not how christian parents parent
00:27:35.160 no that's no you're not you're going to parent them through it but but what are you parenting
00:27:40.340 them through you don't know what just happened you weren't there you weren't there you're going
00:27:46.520 to parent them through your five-year-old's recollection of what happened. But that teacher
00:27:54.020 with you out of the room, with you out not even being present, that pagan teacher who hates
00:27:58.600 God, if they're not a Christian. And again, I'm using her argument because her argument is she
00:28:02.800 wants different kinds of teachers. She wants non-Christian teachers. So she wants pagan 0.79
00:28:07.220 Christian or pagan teachers. And according to the word of God, there is no neutrality. There's no
00:28:12.060 indifference, right? Romans chapter eight says the mind of the sinful man is hostile, not just
00:28:17.260 neutral, not just indifferent, not uninterested, but hostile at enmity toward God and his law.
00:28:23.440 He does not submit to God's law, nor can he. He's unwilling to submit to the truth of God,
00:28:28.960 God's law, the way that God made the world. The pagan mind is unwilling to submit to God's law 1.00
00:28:34.140 and unable. He does not, he cannot. And so what you're advocating for right now is you're saying 0.99
00:28:41.080 that you actually don't want your children to be trained and formed and shaped and taught 0.78
00:28:47.260 in a Christian paideia by Christian teachers. But you actually see it as not just something
00:28:53.520 that we stomach, not just something that we put up with, but as a virtue, as a positive aspect of
00:29:00.000 your children's formation, that they be trained by God-hating pagans with you not there. So you
00:29:08.500 got a God-hating pagan giving a God-hating worldview that essentially right now, and 0.96
00:29:14.120 not just for 15 minutes, but for eight hours. 0.59
00:29:17.440 And while you're gone for eight hours, you have a God-hating teacher providing a God-hating
00:29:24.000 curriculum, God-hating worldview with your five-year-old.
00:29:28.100 So they're in the ring, and this grown adult is wailing on them, but you're going to parent
00:29:33.640 them through it on the backside.
00:29:35.060 you're going to somehow salvage this um after the fact uh based off of working from your five-year-old
00:29:41.980 your six-year-old your seven-year-old's recollection of of the fight that they just had
00:29:47.580 and how they got pummeled and and one you're counting on your five-year-old to be able to
00:29:52.860 to call this to memory um and and hopefully they were conscious even for this fight they were
00:29:59.380 getting destroyed they were getting pummeled um but you're gonna you're gonna work them through
00:30:04.380 you're going to parent them through it um no you're not you're not um no this is a bad idea
00:30:12.480 this is not a good faith position that christians can take it's not it's not we don't subject our
00:30:19.780 children your child is not a missionary and see that's part of the argument right so jim wilkin
00:30:25.300 she she's aware of some of the arguments that have failed that have been thoroughly dismantled
00:30:30.260 by guys like Voodie Bauckham.
00:30:32.480 And so she doesn't even attempt to make them, right?
00:30:34.960 She tries to make these new arguments, right? 0.81
00:30:37.520 The Christian parents, one of her arguments 0.94
00:30:39.260 is that they should put their kids 0.91
00:30:40.440 in the public school system
00:30:41.420 because what about all those other kids
00:30:43.140 that would just be left?
00:30:45.460 Well, yeah, that is tragic.
00:30:48.600 That is tragic.
00:30:49.900 But your chief responsibility, Christian,
00:30:52.040 is for your kids, your kids, right?
00:30:55.900 I mean, apply that same logic and say,
00:30:57.660 well, there are children that are starving.
00:30:59.120 and so i i mean i i can't i can't put my children you know in front of a table that has food i can't
00:31:05.880 you know i none like if every christian you know part at one point in the good faith debate she
00:31:11.680 says if every christian took uh their children out of the public school all all at the same time
00:31:16.360 um imagine the the collapse and the the calamity and and and how harmful it would be for all these
00:31:23.840 kids who are left behind. And I would respond to that and say, praise God. Praise God. Not praise
00:31:31.080 God in the sense of it's good that this would have negative impact on these other children.
00:31:35.460 I would actually argue that I don't think that would be the result. I think the result would be
00:31:39.220 if every faithful Christian, everybody who professes the name of Christ and claims to be 0.97
00:31:45.160 a Christian started behaving in a faithful manner and took their kids out of the public school
00:31:48.800 system, even in the state of California, you have 10 million, 42 million is the population,
00:31:54.260 give or take, 10 million of those residents profess to be Christians. If 10 million, a quarter,
00:32:00.720 25, and that's California, right? So if you take the nation as a whole, it would be over a quarter
00:32:05.480 of the population takes their kids out of the public school system, well, the public school
00:32:09.820 system would collapse. It would be done. It would implode. And we would be forced to come up with
00:32:16.600 other options. And I do believe that the vast majority of these alternative options would be
00:32:23.200 better than the current situation, better than the state-run atheistic schools that we currently
00:32:29.000 have. So the idea of making the argument saying, well, of course, we can't say that the children
00:32:36.560 of Christians are missionaries, right? Of course not. We can't make that argument. The reason she's
00:32:41.460 not making that argument for the record is because that argument was made by Christians to support
00:32:46.340 sending kids to public schools, that argument was made ad nauseum for decades. And it has been
00:32:52.900 proven and dismantled so thoroughly by this point that Jen Wilkin just doesn't even have
00:32:59.060 the gall to even make the argument because it's been so thoroughly disproven. Your children are
00:33:06.200 not to be treated as missionaries. They're training. I mean, even when it comes to 18,
00:33:12.160 19, 20-year-old young adults who enlist in the military, they go to boot camp. And boot camp
00:33:21.920 is thousands of miles away from actual warfare that's taking place. And yes, it's rigorous,
00:33:28.040 and yes, it's difficult, but it's controlled, and it's protected, and it's defended. We don't even
00:33:35.480 send someone into who's a young adult. We don't send them into battle without first being
00:33:41.760 trained and the training doesn't happen on the battlefield, it's too late. The training doesn't
00:33:47.900 happen at war. The training happens in preparation in the controlled environment before war. The
00:33:55.320 imperative for Christian parents is not to treat their children as missionaries, as spiritual 1.00
00:34:03.280 soldiers in the war, but rather to train them so that when they're ready, they would be shot out 0.95
00:34:09.480 like arrows. But those arrows need to be formed first. They need to be sharpened. They need to
00:34:14.020 be straightened. We need those arrows to be prepared before we shoot them out at the enemy.
00:34:19.640 Okay, so let's go ahead and play the next clip. I don't want to covertly take over the public
00:34:26.960 schools and make them Christian schools, although I value the ethics that that would involve being
00:34:33.460 in place in the public schools. But I think that because they're public schools, 0.56
00:34:38.700 they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn't. 0.98
00:34:45.080 No. Okay. First, I do want to take over public schools. Now I agree. I don't want to covertly 0.96
00:34:52.140 take over public schools. I want to overtly take over public schools. I want the public school and
00:34:57.940 I want the United States of America, I want the general public to be fully aware of what the
00:35:03.960 Christian's intention is. And that intention is that, yes, we want to take over public schools. 0.90
00:35:10.080 We want to see them shut down. We want to see them shut down. I believe that the public school
00:35:15.040 system in America is past the point of being redeemed, that it needs to be shut down. We
00:35:21.620 talk about some institutions. You can go inside and try to recapture some institutions. And other
00:35:27.360 institutions like high places in Israel. They need to be burned to the ground, and a temple to the 1.00
00:35:34.140 Lord needs to be built right on top of the ashes. I think the public school system in America today
00:35:38.520 in 2023 would be an example of an institution that needs to be abandoned, and it ultimately
00:35:44.120 needs to be overcome. It needs to be conquered. It needs to be conquered. So, well, she's saying,
00:35:50.800 know, well, I don't want to take over the public school system. Well, I do. I do. And I want to do
00:35:57.800 it from the outside. Or from the inside, I want to see faithful Christian adults at the school
00:36:04.120 board meeting. I want to see faithful Christian adults, but not from the inside by sending in 0.89
00:36:08.660 our secret agent, six-year-old. Now, your six-year-old child is not meant to be sent in 0.97
00:36:17.080 by Christian parents as the TKO weapon to take down the public school. So I do want to overtake 1.00
00:36:26.140 the public school system. I don't want to covertly do it. I don't want to do it deceptively. I want
00:36:30.620 to do it overtly and say, yeah, this is wrong. And by God's grace, if he would be so gracious,
00:36:36.460 he's going to empower us by his spirit through both law and gospel to take this down and to set
00:36:42.760 up better Christian alternatives. But the last thing that she said in that clip, I want to play 0.70
00:36:47.120 it for you guys one more time, but the last thing she said in that clip is not just, I don't want
00:36:50.820 to take them down, but basically saying, I don't want to take them down because the general public
00:36:55.220 needs them. There are non-Christians and these non-Christians need this non-Christian education 1.00
00:37:01.300 because it's good for the general public. It's good for society. Play the clip again. 1.00
00:37:07.440 I don't want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools. 0.64
00:37:12.160 schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve being in place in
00:37:17.620 the public schools.
00:37:19.220 But I think that because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population in 1.00
00:37:25.160 a way that a Christian school doesn't. 1.00
00:37:28.820 Because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population, right? 0.56
00:37:32.180 She's essentially saying because it's a public school, it needs to serve the general public 0.98
00:37:35.960 in a way that a Christian school doesn't.
00:37:39.160 is um that is a pivotal fallacy no a christian school if it's truly christian it serves the
00:37:47.940 general public better than a public school than an atheistic pagan school period the point that
00:37:56.920 i'm making is this a christian school is not just better for um christian children or the children
00:38:02.620 of christian parents it's better for everyone the law of god is good holy and right it's not just
00:38:11.220 the morally right thing it's the good thing triple braided cord truth goodness and beauty if it's
00:38:17.440 true it is beautiful if it's true it is beneficial it is good the right thing is the good thing and
00:38:25.720 the thing that is truly good for society for human flourishing is also that which aligns with the
00:38:31.680 law of God and is morally right. Christian schools, hear me, Christian schools are not just
00:38:38.540 a necessity for the children of Christian parents. Christian schools are a practical,
00:38:45.940 not just spiritual, it's that, certainly, but also a practical benefit to everyone.
00:38:54.040 Everyone. Salt and light benefits everyone. The gospel of Jesus Christ benefits everyone.
00:39:01.680 It is better to be an atheist living in a Christian society with Christian principles 0.87
00:39:07.920 and Christian law and Christian civil magistrates. 0.90
00:39:11.560 Better to be a non-Christian in a Christian society than to be not only a Christian in 0.86
00:39:18.160 a non-Christian society, but even a non-Christian in a non-Christian society. 0.91
00:39:23.060 Pagans do not fare well in pagan societies.
00:39:27.680 The Christian worldview is good for everyone.
00:39:31.680 When the tide rises, it lifts all the boats.
00:39:34.960 This Christian ethic that she mentions in passing, she says, well, while I see that
00:39:39.160 a Christian ethic would be good, the implication that she gives in that clip is she's saying,
00:39:44.480 she's subtly implying that a Christian ethic, a Christian education, Christian school would
00:39:49.580 teach a Christian ethic and that would be good.
00:39:51.560 But what she's implying is that it would be good for Christians, that it would be exclusively
00:39:56.020 good for Christians.
00:39:57.180 But we live in a society where, you know, not everybody's Christian.
00:40:01.460 there there's a general public and and there are people who are not christian so they need
00:40:05.760 non-christians need non-christian schools for their good no the gospel is good for everyone
00:40:11.560 the law of god is good for everyone the christian paideia is good for every child
00:40:18.920 every child a child of unbelievers or child of believers both will benefit by being trained up
00:40:27.780 in the fear and admonition of the Lord. What is true is that which is good. And I mean universally
00:40:35.200 good. Universally good. That which is true, aligning with God's word and what God says is true,
00:40:42.080 is going to be that which is good. And not just good for some people. It's not if we cling to the
00:40:47.840 truth, it'll benefit the church. No, if we cling to the truth, it benefits the church. It will
00:40:53.880 uniquely benefit the people of God. That's true. But the truth of God, his ways, his law, his
00:41:00.360 principles, his gospel, it doesn't just uniquely benefit the church, but it also universally
00:41:06.520 benefits all image bearers. All people benefit. One of the most loving things that we can do,
00:41:14.340 not just for our own children, not just for Christian children or children of Christian
00:41:18.560 households, but benefit all children. One of the best ways that you can love your neighbor
00:41:25.040 is by not just obeying the law of God, but ensuring in the public square that the law of
00:41:31.620 God is adhered to by the civil public, the civil square. When a Christian votes for certain laws,
00:41:38.900 right? So as an abolitionist, when it comes to the issue of abortion, I want to work towards 0.87
00:41:47.120 penalties for abortion. And not just penalties for the abortion doctor, but penalties for the mother 0.74
00:41:53.480 who goes to have her unborn child murdered and consents to that murder, is complicit in that
00:42:00.640 murder, and the father, if he consents to that. I want penalties for him too. I don't want just
00:42:05.600 abortion to be unavailable. I don't want abortion just to be illegal. I want abortion to be
00:42:12.480 criminalized. I want there to be penalties, equal penalties, not just some penalties, 0.99
00:42:17.760 but whatever the penalty would be for a mother taking her three-year-old child to a back alley
00:42:22.900 with a hitman and paying him to shoot that child in the head and murder them in cold blood. I want
00:42:28.580 that, whatever that penalty is, I want that same penalty for a mother who goes to an abortion 0.99
00:42:34.120 doctor and drags her baby by virtue of it being in her womb and pays him in order to kill her 0.99
00:42:40.360 unborn child. I want the same penalty, equal penalties. Equal penalties, here's the argument, 0.58
00:42:45.420 real short. Equal penalties ensures equal protection. You cannot say that it's equal
00:42:50.320 protection if it's not an equal penalty. So equal penalties is equal protection, and equal
00:42:55.240 protection is necessary in order to actually back up the argument of equal dignity, equal sanctity,
00:43:02.160 equal value. If you're going to say that the child in the womb really is a child, that they really
00:43:07.480 are a human being that they really are an image bearer not half of an image bearer but a whole
00:43:12.080 image bearer a whole human if you're going to attribute to the unborn child um 100 personhood
00:43:18.700 as an image bearer the living god created in the image of god with the full sanctity of life
00:43:24.020 if you're going to say equal value for the unborn then then to back that statement up to say we
00:43:29.200 value the unborn just as much as those who are born then you have to say equal value means then
00:43:34.300 we ensure equal protections. And if it's going to be equal protections, it has to be equal penalties.
00:43:40.500 Now, if I vote for a law like that, or I give my vote for a political candidate who's given a
00:43:47.960 promise to ensure and put down bills on the table to try to pass laws like that, that benefits
00:43:54.760 everyone. I'm not just doing that because I think it's good for Christians. No, I'm doing that for
00:44:00.960 children in the womb who very well may be born and grow up and live their entire lives from birth
00:44:08.200 to death and never receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior through faith. And yet it's still in
00:44:15.600 their benefit. They're temporal, physical. In this life, it is to their good. It is to their benefit.
00:44:21.580 And so I'm going to support laws in the civil sphere, in the public square, when it comes to
00:44:27.340 education public education when it comes to legislation and laws i am going to support that
00:44:33.340 which aligns with the moral transcendent universal law of god because it's right it's true and
00:44:40.160 therefore it is also good and practically beneficial not just for christian people
00:44:44.760 or christian children but for all people and all children the christian ethic no my argument is
00:44:51.460 jen wilkin is wrong my argument is not that well there there are christians and they can have their
00:44:56.360 christian schools but there are non-christians and so they need non-christian schools no the
00:44:59.880 christian ethic that should come from a faithful christian school benefits everyone whether they're
00:45:04.880 christian or not because it's right and it's true so this good faith debate was not helpful
00:45:12.600 again at best it muddies the water and confuses christian parents and at worst it assuages the 0.99
00:45:20.900 consciences of Christian mothers and fathers to the point that it would allow them to enlist
00:45:26.620 their children in 15,000 hours of pagan indoctrination. And that is a sin. Thanks for 0.92
00:45:33.360 tuning in. Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look, some of you
00:45:38.400 guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you.
00:45:43.960 I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact,
00:45:51.080 some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's
00:45:56.660 ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last
00:46:05.680 three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if
00:46:13.080 people change the definition of a recession, we are living in a recession right now regardless.
00:46:20.260 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support
00:46:26.560 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.
00:46:33.820 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a
00:46:40.480 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.
00:46:47.100 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves but shrewd as vipers. We need
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