The NXR Podcast - September 28, 2023


BONUS EPISODE - John MacArthur Vs Voddie Baucham ｜ Where These Two Men Disagree


Episode Stats


Length

21 minutes

Words per minute

140.10417

Word count

2,959

Sentence count

169

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

9

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

What is Calvinist and Evangelicalism? Can one be Calvinist & Evangelical? What does it mean to be an Evangelical and a Calvinist? Is there a difference between Calvinist vs. Evangelical Christianity? And what is the difference between Catholics and Evangelicals?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:01:01.000 What's the difference between the Reformed Baptist denomination and evangelical denomination?
00:01:07.260 Can one be Calvinist and evangelical?
00:01:10.280 Okay, leave the question up there for just a moment.
00:01:14.640 So I'm going to do like what I just said.
00:01:16.360 So Jesus, you know, people would ask him a question.
00:01:18.460 He would decline to answer their question.
00:01:20.080 And then he would answer another question that he thought was actually more pertinent.
00:01:24.500 I'm going to do a little bit of that with you, sir, Ian, but not completely.
00:01:27.640 I want to honor your question as much as I can.
00:01:29.320 but I think this is what you mean, okay? So, and maybe you don't mean this, and maybe it's just
00:01:33.440 a misconception, just something that, you know, just an area of ignorance. So, let me dispel some
00:01:39.420 of that. Evangelicalism is not really a denomination. So, when people say evangelical
00:01:47.120 Christians or evangelicals, what they're actually talking about is an overarching collection of
00:01:54.340 multiple denominations. And what constitutes an evangelical Christian at the individual level or
00:02:01.700 an evangelical church, speaking of local churches, or an evangelical denomination
00:02:07.080 is does this church or individual person or denomination, do they preach an orthodox
00:02:19.420 Christian gospel. So evangelicals, right? And it's tough because with many words,
00:02:25.620 there's debates about how to define that. But in recent history, in general, the way that the word
00:02:33.680 evangelical has been defined and understood has been any denomination, multiple denominations,
00:02:40.380 any denomination, any local church, any individual person who believes that we are saved
00:02:46.900 by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Okay, so some would maybe differ with
00:02:55.060 what I'm about to say, but most evangelicals would agree that Catholic is not evangelical,
00:03:02.140 Roman Catholicism. So it'd be evangelicals and Catholics. That's one of the things that Billy
00:03:06.920 Graham did in his later years that I would reject. I think this was wrong. I don't like that he did
00:03:13.680 this, but towards the end of his ministry, he had a big push for Catholics and evangelicals
00:03:19.620 to unite. Now, it's one thing for Catholics and evangelicals to unite on, for instance,
00:03:25.620 the issue of the sanctity of life, because we believe the exact same thing. But it's another
00:03:31.880 for evangelicals and Catholics to unite in the work of evangelism, because that has to do with
00:03:38.260 the gospel. And Roman Catholics do not believe the same gospel that we do as evangelical Christians. 0.83
00:03:48.020 They believe another gospel. I love Roman Catholics. I love them immensely. I'm grateful
00:03:56.380 for a lot of what they do, but they do believe another gospel. They don't believe that we are
00:04:02.260 saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the scripture alone,
00:04:11.000 to the glory of God alone. Sola, right? The Latin word sola, alone. That's the contention.
00:04:19.540 There's the rub. The Council of Trent still is the current standard for Roman Catholicism. This
00:04:26.160 has never been undone. This has never been overridden. The Council of Trent anathematized
00:04:33.060 that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, according to the scripture, to the glory of God
00:04:39.180 alone. And that is the gospel. So what I'm saying is this, that the Council of Trent,
00:04:44.840 which is still the official position of the Roman Catholic Church to this day,
00:04:49.360 anathematized that is it cursed said let him be accursed and what did they curse
00:04:57.200 the gospel of jesus christ that's a big deal i love catholics and i am partnering in some
00:05:05.760 capacities with catholics when it comes to political cultural issues and yet no matter
00:05:10.360 how cozy i might get if i ever stop saying what i'm saying in this video right now 0.97
00:05:16.200 then call me out for being a hypocrite. I don't want to get so cozy on some cultural issues where
00:05:23.860 we can agree that I stop preaching in love the truth to our Roman Catholic friends that what
00:05:33.640 they believe is another gospel. It's not another presentation or another version. No, it is a
00:05:42.380 whole other alternative gospel. It is not the gospel. Usually when you think of large banner
00:05:52.060 being Christian, and this is just the language that people use, so I'm not making an objective
00:05:57.240 theological statement now. But if somebody was an atheist historian tracking Christian influence
00:06:06.220 throughout the world, they would use, especially over the last 50 to 80 years, they would say,
00:06:12.100 well, underneath the larger Christian banner, you have Catholics, and then you have evangelicals.
00:06:20.600 And then they might add some other categories like Unitarians. And again, I'm not making a
00:06:25.020 theological statement saying that all these people are in fact Christians, but I'm just saying this
00:06:29.580 is how a historian would look at it is you've got the larger banner of Christian. And then underneath
00:06:35.220 that, you have like Roman Catholic, evangelical, and some other things that are included that
00:06:39.840 really probably should not be included as Christian. But my point is on that evangelical
00:06:44.800 category has, within recent history, it has been understood widely to include Baptists,
00:06:55.880 Reformed Baptists, like in your question, Sir Ian, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Lutherans,
00:07:04.980 multiple different denominations, all evangelical. So, your question is saying,
00:07:10.160 is there a difference between Reformed Baptist denomination and evangelical denomination? And
00:07:14.700 what I'm saying is evangelical is not a denomination. So, you're naming one particular
00:07:22.340 denomination, namely Reformed Baptist, that falls underneath a larger category, which is evangelical.
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00:09:12.800 for you and our other listeners would be a question like this, for instance. Is there a
00:09:17.240 difference between Reformed Baptist and Calvinistic Baptist within, both underneath the banner of
00:09:24.360 evangelicalism, but two different denominations, or at least two different, if not official
00:09:29.940 denominations, two different movements or expressions of evangelicalism? Reformed Baptist
00:09:35.680 versus Calvinistic Baptist. And I would say, yes, there is a difference between being a Calvinistic
00:09:41.180 Baptist and a Reformed Baptist. Let me give you two names. So I'll first articulate the difference,
00:09:46.920 the distinction by naming some guys, and then I'll name some doctrines, okay? So in terms of
00:09:53.100 some people, John MacArthur would be one of your quintessential Calvinistic Baptists that is not a
00:10:01.180 Reformed Baptist. He is a Calvinistic Baptist. He would hold to the five points of, he'd hold to
00:10:07.340 the five solas, right? So saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, according
00:10:11.320 to the scripture alone, to the glory of God alone. So he'd hold to the five solas, but beyond that,
00:10:15.300 he would hold to the tulip, the five points of Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, okay? Total
00:10:21.760 depravity, unconditional election, limited or definite atonement, irresistible grace, and the
00:10:28.900 perseverance of all saints, right? So John MacArthur is a Calvinist. He is a card-carrying Calvinist,
00:10:34.440 Okay. But he is not a reformed Baptist. He is a Calvinistic Baptist. An example of a reformed 0.62
00:10:41.320 Baptist, um, to name someone on, on that side of the aisle would be someone like, um, well, 0.56
00:10:48.260 Votie Bauckham. All right. So I'm trying to name, you know, bigger guys that you would recognize. 0.83
00:10:53.540 Oh, here's another one. Um, James White, James White and myself, I assume, you know, who I am.
00:11:00.520 if you're watching this video, you know at least a little bit about me enough to click on this and
00:11:04.960 to still be here watching. But so someone like Votie Bauckham, somebody like James White,
00:11:10.600 and somebody like Joel Webin, we would be Reformed Baptists. Not merely Calvinistic Baptists like
00:11:16.800 John MacArthur, but Reformed Baptists. So there is a distinction. So both under the banner of
00:11:21.460 evangelicalism, but two different expressions, both evangelical, both Orthodox, both Christian,
00:11:26.800 But two different expressions. The difference in terms of names, people, John MacArthur,
00:11:32.720 Calvinistic Baptist, somebody like Votie Bauckham, Reformed Baptist. Now, the difference in terms of
00:11:37.460 doctrine, here would be your differences. The big quintessential difference is that a Reformed 0.88
00:11:44.520 Baptist is someone who is confessional. They hold to one of the historic, well, not just one of,
00:11:55.120 but quintessentially the historic Reformed Confession of Faith for Baptists, namely the 1689.
00:12:05.120 John MacArthur would not hold to the 1689. He would agree with a lot of it, a lot of it,
00:12:10.780 but he would not be able to affirm outright the entirety of the 1689 Second London Baptist
00:12:17.100 Confession of Faith. Votie Bauckham would, James White would, I would. So we are Reformed Baptists
00:12:24.340 And primarily, the first big, the biggest doctrinal distinction that that means in being
00:12:29.520 Reformed Baptists is that we are confessionally Reformed Baptists, or also historically known
00:12:35.420 as Particular Baptists.
00:12:37.380 Now, in that confession, what are some of the isolated individual doctrines that are
00:12:41.900 different than someone like MacArthur, who's merely a Calvinistic Baptist, faithful, grateful
00:12:48.120 for MacArthur, but merely a Calvinistic Baptist?
00:12:51.240 Why are you saying merely?
00:12:52.540 That sounds like, you know, a pejorative.
00:12:54.340 That sounds derogatory.
00:12:55.640 Well, I'm saying merely because a Calvinistic Baptist believes less.
00:13:00.260 So that's why I'm using the, you know, the adjective merely.
00:13:03.000 They believe less than the confessional Baptist. 0.96
00:13:05.680 And this is what I mean.
00:13:06.760 The Calvinistic Baptist would affirm less of the 1689 confession. 0.83
00:13:12.880 So maybe MacArthur's right.
00:13:14.660 So I'm not, I'm not, I don't mean that in an insulting way, but I'm saying he would
00:13:18.660 hold to less of the Reformed Confession of Faith for Baptists, namely the 1689. What are some of
00:13:26.300 the things that MacArthur would not hold that someone who affirms the entirety of the 1689
00:13:31.580 London Baptist Confession of Faith would hold? MacArthur would not hold to Christian
00:13:37.220 Sabbatarianism, the Sabbath. The Christian Sabbath, whether you are Reformed Presbyterian,
00:13:45.320 affirming the Westminster Confession of Faith or Reformed Baptist, both confessional,
00:13:50.740 affirming the 1689 Confession of Faith. On both sides of the aisle, if you're Reformed
00:13:55.500 Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist, you would hold to the Christian Sabbath. The Christian Sabbath
00:14:00.040 believes that the fourth commandment in Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments, the Decalogue,
00:14:04.560 the fourth commandment is belonging to the moral law of God rather than ceremonial law of God,
00:14:11.680 particular to the old covenant and to Israel, the nation state of Israel during the time of
00:14:16.760 the old covenant. We would say, no, the Sabbath is not ceremonial law. It is moral law. And that
00:14:23.100 Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath does not remove the Sabbath. He doesn't abrogate the Sabbath,
00:14:29.240 the fourth commandment. He does not remove it, but rather he renewed the Sabbath from the last
00:14:34.060 day of the week, namely Saturday, which is when the Jewish people would observe the Sabbath
00:14:38.720 as they were instructed by God, the seventh day of the week. Jesus has not removed the Sabbath,
00:14:43.840 but renewed the Sabbath from the last day of the week, Saturday, to the first day of the week,
00:14:49.440 Sunday, by virtue of it being the day that he rose from the grave. By virtue of his resurrection,
00:14:55.000 he renewed, not removed, but renewed the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week. And
00:15:00.540 the Sabbath, the fourth commandment within the Decalogue, belongs to the moral law of God
00:15:05.340 and not merely the ceremonial law. There are ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath, but it is a
00:15:11.740 moral law, meaning it is an institute, a precept that God gives not just to Jewish people, but to
00:15:19.620 all people in all places throughout all time. So, Reformed Baptists are confessional. One of the
00:15:26.560 aspects of being confessional rather than non-confessional and merely Calvinistic Baptist
00:15:31.800 is the issue of the Sabbath. Also, that gets into our views of the law. It also gets into
00:15:38.820 covenant theology. One of the very big specific tenets of the 1689 of being Reformed Baptist
00:15:46.780 versus Calvinistic Baptist is that Reformed Baptist, they affirm the Reformed Confession
00:15:53.120 of Faith for Baptists, the 1689, is that they would adhere to covenant theology and not
00:15:58.440 dispensationalism. John MacArthur is not a covenant theologian. He would reject covenant
00:16:03.940 theology. In his defense, he rejects covenant theology because he wants to hold to a very strict
00:16:10.040 historical, grammatical, literal hermeneutic in the way that he reads and interprets scripture.
00:16:17.800 And he would have less room for an analogical or typological or Christological piece in that
00:16:25.360 hermeneutic. Whereas Reformed Presbyterians with the Westminster and Reformed Baptists with the
00:16:31.820 1689, we would affirm John MacArthur's hermeneutic. We wouldn't hold to anything less than that.
00:16:37.940 But again, we would hold to something in addition to that. We would say it needs to be a literal,
00:16:42.120 historical, grammatical hermeneutic and typological, analogical. And so in that hermeneutic,
00:16:49.300 And the way that we read scripture, we would see more continuity between the Old and the New Testament than John MacArthur or a dispensationalist would see.
00:16:59.540 And again, as a disclaimer, doing, you know, not straw manning, but iron manning Dr. MacArthur, he would be self-described as not a hard line dispensationalist as some, but a leaky dispensationalist.
00:17:12.060 So what's the big difference between Reformed Baptists versus Calvinistic Baptists?
00:17:16.280 Well, the overarching difference is the confession of faith.
00:17:20.360 Within the confession of faith, what are some of the specific tenets?
00:17:23.620 The Sabbath, covenant theology versus dispensationalism, things like that.
00:17:29.960 And then within covenant theology, most, as far as I'm aware, pretty much all covenant
00:17:35.160 guys, rather than dispensational, are either all-mill or post-mill in their eschatology.
00:17:41.480 Whereas, again, most, if not all, dispensationalists are premill in their eschatology. So the eschatology piece would be another difference that we would have between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist.
00:17:57.960 So those are some of the things, some of the differences between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist, but both underneath the larger banner of evangelicalism.
00:18:08.180 Evangelical not being a denomination, but rather the large overarching banner to describe simply gospel-believing Christians in multiple denominations that would fall underneath that header. 0.53
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