The NXR Podcast - September 28, 2023


BONUS EPISODE - John MacArthur Vs Voddie Baucham ｜ Where These Two Men Disagree

Topics
evangelical vs Catholic gospel Sabbath and covenant theology
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Sabbath John MacArthur Reformed Baptist Votie Bauckham Jamie White Calvinistic Baptist Farmer Bill Biltong Reformed Presbyterian Roman Catholicism Chuck DeLoderonte Doug Wilson Jesus Christ Billy Graham Joseph Boot Brian Sauve Joel Webin Eric Kahn Calvinist
DAILY TRUTH - Effeminate Men DAILY TRUTH - A “Nice” Tyrant Can Do More Damage Than A “Mean” Tyrant

Episode Stats


Length

21 minutes

Words per minute

140.1

Word count

2,959

Sentence count

180

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

9

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

What is Calvinist and Evangelicalism? Can one be Calvinist & Evangelical? What does it mean to be an Evangelical and a Calvinist? Is there a difference between Calvinist vs. Evangelical Christianity? And what is the difference between Catholics and Evangelicals?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:46 Go and visit rightresponseconference.com to register today. We hope to see you at the conference in March.
00:01:01 What's the difference between the Reformed Baptist denomination and evangelical denomination?
00:01:07 Can one be Calvinist and evangelical?
00:01:10 Okay, leave the question up there for just a moment.
00:01:14 So I'm going to do like what I just said.
00:01:16 So Jesus, you know, people would ask him a question.
00:01:18 He would decline to answer their question.
00:01:20 And then he would answer another question that he thought was actually more pertinent.
00:01:24 I'm going to do a little bit of that with you, sir, Ian, but not completely.
00:01:27 I want to honor your question as much as I can.
00:01:29 but I think this is what you mean, okay? So, and maybe you don't mean this, and maybe it's just
00:01:33 a misconception, just something that, you know, just an area of ignorance. So, let me dispel some
00:01:39 of that. Evangelicalism is not really a denomination. So, when people say evangelical
00:01:47 Christians or evangelicals, what they're actually talking about is an overarching collection of
00:01:54 multiple denominations. And what constitutes an evangelical Christian at the individual level or
00:02:01 an evangelical church, speaking of local churches, or an evangelical denomination
00:02:07 is does this church or individual person or denomination, do they preach an orthodox
00:02:19 Christian gospel. So evangelicals, right? And it's tough because with many words,
00:02:25 there's debates about how to define that. But in recent history, in general, the way that the word
00:02:33 evangelical has been defined and understood has been any denomination, multiple denominations,
00:02:40 any denomination, any local church, any individual person who believes that we are saved
00:02:46 by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Okay, so some would maybe differ with
00:02:55 what I'm about to say, but most evangelicals would agree that Catholic is not evangelical,
00:03:02 Roman Catholicism. So it'd be evangelicals and Catholics. That's one of the things that Billy
00:03:06 Graham did in his later years that I would reject. I think this was wrong. I don't like that he did
00:03:13 this, but towards the end of his ministry, he had a big push for Catholics and evangelicals
00:03:19 to unite. Now, it's one thing for Catholics and evangelicals to unite on, for instance,
00:03:25 the issue of the sanctity of life, because we believe the exact same thing. But it's another
00:03:31 for evangelicals and Catholics to unite in the work of evangelism, because that has to do with
00:03:38 the gospel. And Roman Catholics do not believe the same gospel that we do as evangelical Christians. 0.83
00:03:48 They believe another gospel. I love Roman Catholics. I love them immensely. I'm grateful
00:03:56 for a lot of what they do, but they do believe another gospel. They don't believe that we are
00:04:02 saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the scripture alone,
00:04:11 to the glory of God alone. Sola, right? The Latin word sola, alone. That's the contention.
00:04:19 There's the rub. The Council of Trent still is the current standard for Roman Catholicism. This
00:04:26 has never been undone. This has never been overridden. The Council of Trent anathematized
00:04:33 that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, according to the scripture, to the glory of God
00:04:39 alone. And that is the gospel. So what I'm saying is this, that the Council of Trent,
00:04:44 which is still the official position of the Roman Catholic Church to this day,
00:04:49 anathematized that is it cursed said let him be accursed and what did they curse
00:04:57 the gospel of jesus christ that's a big deal i love catholics and i am partnering in some
00:05:05 capacities with catholics when it comes to political cultural issues and yet no matter
00:05:10 how cozy i might get if i ever stop saying what i'm saying in this video right now 0.97
00:05:16 then call me out for being a hypocrite. I don't want to get so cozy on some cultural issues where
00:05:23 we can agree that I stop preaching in love the truth to our Roman Catholic friends that what
00:05:33 they believe is another gospel. It's not another presentation or another version. No, it is a
00:05:42 whole other alternative gospel. It is not the gospel. Usually when you think of large banner
00:05:52 being Christian, and this is just the language that people use, so I'm not making an objective
00:05:57 theological statement now. But if somebody was an atheist historian tracking Christian influence
00:06:06 throughout the world, they would use, especially over the last 50 to 80 years, they would say,
00:06:12 well, underneath the larger Christian banner, you have Catholics, and then you have evangelicals.
00:06:20 And then they might add some other categories like Unitarians. And again, I'm not making a
00:06:25 theological statement saying that all these people are in fact Christians, but I'm just saying this
00:06:29 is how a historian would look at it is you've got the larger banner of Christian. And then underneath
00:06:35 that, you have like Roman Catholic, evangelical, and some other things that are included that
00:06:39 really probably should not be included as Christian. But my point is on that evangelical
00:06:44 category has, within recent history, it has been understood widely to include Baptists,
00:06:55 Reformed Baptists, like in your question, Sir Ian, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Lutherans,
00:07:04 multiple different denominations, all evangelical. So, your question is saying,
00:07:10 is there a difference between Reformed Baptist denomination and evangelical denomination? And
00:07:14 what I'm saying is evangelical is not a denomination. So, you're naming one particular
00:07:22 denomination, namely Reformed Baptist, that falls underneath a larger category, which is evangelical.
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00:09:04 economy again by going to farmerbillsprovisions.com. Now, the question that I think will be helpful
00:09:12 for you and our other listeners would be a question like this, for instance. Is there a
00:09:17 difference between Reformed Baptist and Calvinistic Baptist within, both underneath the banner of
00:09:24 evangelicalism, but two different denominations, or at least two different, if not official
00:09:29 denominations, two different movements or expressions of evangelicalism? Reformed Baptist
00:09:35 versus Calvinistic Baptist. And I would say, yes, there is a difference between being a Calvinistic
00:09:41 Baptist and a Reformed Baptist. Let me give you two names. So I'll first articulate the difference,
00:09:46 the distinction by naming some guys, and then I'll name some doctrines, okay? So in terms of
00:09:53 some people, John MacArthur would be one of your quintessential Calvinistic Baptists that is not a
00:10:01 Reformed Baptist. He is a Calvinistic Baptist. He would hold to the five points of, he'd hold to
00:10:07 the five solas, right? So saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, according
00:10:11 to the scripture alone, to the glory of God alone. So he'd hold to the five solas, but beyond that,
00:10:15 he would hold to the tulip, the five points of Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, okay? Total
00:10:21 depravity, unconditional election, limited or definite atonement, irresistible grace, and the
00:10:28 perseverance of all saints, right? So John MacArthur is a Calvinist. He is a card-carrying Calvinist,
00:10:34 Okay. But he is not a reformed Baptist. He is a Calvinistic Baptist. An example of a reformed 0.62
00:10:41 Baptist, um, to name someone on, on that side of the aisle would be someone like, um, well, 0.56
00:10:48 Votie Bauckham. All right. So I'm trying to name, you know, bigger guys that you would recognize. 0.83
00:10:53 Oh, here's another one. Um, James White, James White and myself, I assume, you know, who I am.
00:11:00 if you're watching this video, you know at least a little bit about me enough to click on this and
00:11:04 to still be here watching. But so someone like Votie Bauckham, somebody like James White,
00:11:10 and somebody like Joel Webin, we would be Reformed Baptists. Not merely Calvinistic Baptists like
00:11:16 John MacArthur, but Reformed Baptists. So there is a distinction. So both under the banner of
00:11:21 evangelicalism, but two different expressions, both evangelical, both Orthodox, both Christian,
00:11:26 But two different expressions. The difference in terms of names, people, John MacArthur,
00:11:32 Calvinistic Baptist, somebody like Votie Bauckham, Reformed Baptist. Now, the difference in terms of
00:11:37 doctrine, here would be your differences. The big quintessential difference is that a Reformed 0.88
00:11:44 Baptist is someone who is confessional. They hold to one of the historic, well, not just one of,
00:11:55 but quintessentially the historic Reformed Confession of Faith for Baptists, namely the 1689.
00:12:05 John MacArthur would not hold to the 1689. He would agree with a lot of it, a lot of it,
00:12:10 but he would not be able to affirm outright the entirety of the 1689 Second London Baptist
00:12:17 Confession of Faith. Votie Bauckham would, James White would, I would. So we are Reformed Baptists
00:12:24 And primarily, the first big, the biggest doctrinal distinction that that means in being
00:12:29 Reformed Baptists is that we are confessionally Reformed Baptists, or also historically known
00:12:35 as Particular Baptists.
00:12:37 Now, in that confession, what are some of the isolated individual doctrines that are
00:12:41 different than someone like MacArthur, who's merely a Calvinistic Baptist, faithful, grateful
00:12:48 for MacArthur, but merely a Calvinistic Baptist?
00:12:51 Why are you saying merely?
00:12:52 That sounds like, you know, a pejorative.
00:12:54 That sounds derogatory.
00:12:55 Well, I'm saying merely because a Calvinistic Baptist believes less.
00:13:00 So that's why I'm using the, you know, the adjective merely.
00:13:03 They believe less than the confessional Baptist. 0.96
00:13:05 And this is what I mean.
00:13:06 The Calvinistic Baptist would affirm less of the 1689 confession. 0.83
00:13:12 So maybe MacArthur's right.
00:13:14 So I'm not, I'm not, I don't mean that in an insulting way, but I'm saying he would
00:13:18 hold to less of the Reformed Confession of Faith for Baptists, namely the 1689. What are some of
00:13:26 the things that MacArthur would not hold that someone who affirms the entirety of the 1689
00:13:31 London Baptist Confession of Faith would hold? MacArthur would not hold to Christian
00:13:37 Sabbatarianism, the Sabbath. The Christian Sabbath, whether you are Reformed Presbyterian,
00:13:45 affirming the Westminster Confession of Faith or Reformed Baptist, both confessional,
00:13:50 affirming the 1689 Confession of Faith. On both sides of the aisle, if you're Reformed
00:13:55 Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist, you would hold to the Christian Sabbath. The Christian Sabbath
00:14:00 believes that the fourth commandment in Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments, the Decalogue,
00:14:04 the fourth commandment is belonging to the moral law of God rather than ceremonial law of God,
00:14:11 particular to the old covenant and to Israel, the nation state of Israel during the time of
00:14:16 the old covenant. We would say, no, the Sabbath is not ceremonial law. It is moral law. And that
00:14:23 Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath does not remove the Sabbath. He doesn't abrogate the Sabbath,
00:14:29 the fourth commandment. He does not remove it, but rather he renewed the Sabbath from the last
00:14:34 day of the week, namely Saturday, which is when the Jewish people would observe the Sabbath
00:14:38 as they were instructed by God, the seventh day of the week. Jesus has not removed the Sabbath,
00:14:43 but renewed the Sabbath from the last day of the week, Saturday, to the first day of the week,
00:14:49 Sunday, by virtue of it being the day that he rose from the grave. By virtue of his resurrection,
00:14:55 he renewed, not removed, but renewed the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week. And
00:15:00 the Sabbath, the fourth commandment within the Decalogue, belongs to the moral law of God
00:15:05 and not merely the ceremonial law. There are ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath, but it is a
00:15:11 moral law, meaning it is an institute, a precept that God gives not just to Jewish people, but to
00:15:19 all people in all places throughout all time. So, Reformed Baptists are confessional. One of the
00:15:26 aspects of being confessional rather than non-confessional and merely Calvinistic Baptist
00:15:31 is the issue of the Sabbath. Also, that gets into our views of the law. It also gets into
00:15:38 covenant theology. One of the very big specific tenets of the 1689 of being Reformed Baptist
00:15:46 versus Calvinistic Baptist is that Reformed Baptist, they affirm the Reformed Confession
00:15:53 of Faith for Baptists, the 1689, is that they would adhere to covenant theology and not
00:15:58 dispensationalism. John MacArthur is not a covenant theologian. He would reject covenant
00:16:03 theology. In his defense, he rejects covenant theology because he wants to hold to a very strict
00:16:10 historical, grammatical, literal hermeneutic in the way that he reads and interprets scripture.
00:16:17 And he would have less room for an analogical or typological or Christological piece in that
00:16:25 hermeneutic. Whereas Reformed Presbyterians with the Westminster and Reformed Baptists with the
00:16:31 1689, we would affirm John MacArthur's hermeneutic. We wouldn't hold to anything less than that.
00:16:37 But again, we would hold to something in addition to that. We would say it needs to be a literal,
00:16:42 historical, grammatical hermeneutic and typological, analogical. And so in that hermeneutic,
00:16:49 And the way that we read scripture, we would see more continuity between the Old and the New Testament than John MacArthur or a dispensationalist would see.
00:16:59 And again, as a disclaimer, doing, you know, not straw manning, but iron manning Dr. MacArthur, he would be self-described as not a hard line dispensationalist as some, but a leaky dispensationalist.
00:17:12 So what's the big difference between Reformed Baptists versus Calvinistic Baptists?
00:17:16 Well, the overarching difference is the confession of faith.
00:17:20 Within the confession of faith, what are some of the specific tenets?
00:17:23 The Sabbath, covenant theology versus dispensationalism, things like that.
00:17:29 And then within covenant theology, most, as far as I'm aware, pretty much all covenant
00:17:35 guys, rather than dispensational, are either all-mill or post-mill in their eschatology.
00:17:41 Whereas, again, most, if not all, dispensationalists are premill in their eschatology. So the eschatology piece would be another difference that we would have between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist.
00:17:57 So those are some of the things, some of the differences between a Calvinistic Baptist and a Reformed Baptist, but both underneath the larger banner of evangelicalism.
00:18:08 Evangelical not being a denomination, but rather the large overarching banner to describe simply gospel-believing Christians in multiple denominations that would fall underneath that header. 0.53
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