The NXR Podcast - BONUS EPISODE - “Shiny Happy People” ｜ Duggars, Pearls, & Bill Gothard Vs. Biblical Patriarchy

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00:00:43.180 Shiny Happy People. It's a new documentary. It's available on Amazon Prime and it's getting a lot

00:00:48.920 of momentum. A lot of people are watching this documentary. Again, shiny happy people that

00:00:53.920 focuses on Bill Gothard, focuses on Michael and Debbie Pearl, and of course it highlights most of

00:01:01.240 all the Duggars, which was a popular sitcom reality TV on TLC for several years. They ended

00:01:09.060 up having 19 children. They were professing Christians. I can't speak to whether or not

00:01:14.340 they're truly regenerate, but professing Christians, conservative in many regards, and yet there were

00:01:20.180 a few scandals that came out. So, all that being said, this is a popular documentary that is

00:01:26.080 making the rounds. A lot of people are talking about it, and so I want to address it today.

00:01:30.700 If I were to focus, you know, just giving you a snapshot of what I'm going to do, I'm going to

00:01:35.940 try to distinguish between the 1980s patriarchy and biblical patriarchy. The patriarchy that we

00:01:44.880 find with the Duggars, the Pearls, and Bill Gothard, the patriarchy that we found in the 1970s,

00:01:51.580 80s, and 90s versus biblical patriarchy. That's what I'm going to be discussing today. What are

00:01:57.220 the similarities? What are the distinctions? Are there serious abuses? How serious are these abuses?

00:02:04.180 Those are the kinds of things that we'll discuss in this video. Quickly, I want to make an

00:02:08.040 announcement and also have a very brief word from our first sponsor for the day. The announcement

00:02:13.000 is this if you have not already please go to right response conference.com right response

00:02:20.120 conference.com and register for our upcoming spring conference many of you came out to our

00:02:25.460 theonomy and post-millennialism conference this past may but we have our next spring conference

00:02:30.800 coming up march 1st 2nd and 3rd of 2024 march 1st 2nd and 3rd that's a friday saturday and sunday

00:02:38.260 the additional announcement we've announced this conference before but the additional announcement

00:02:42.820 is in addition to Douglas Wilson and Brian Sauve and Joe Boot and myself,

00:02:48.840 we now also have Michael Foster from It's Good to Be a Man joining our speaker lineup.

00:02:53.960 We're going to be discussing seven vital doctrines that Christians need to understand,

00:03:00.400 be able to articulate, and certainly believe and live out if we are to steward the world in a righteous manner.

00:03:07.960 If we're to exercise godly leadership, godly influence in every single sphere of life,

00:03:13.840 all of Christ for all of life, not just marriage and parenting in the home, not just as Christians

00:03:17.880 for an hour and a half on Sunday morning at church, but in the arts and medicine and politics

00:03:22.720 and culture, all of Christ for all of life.

00:03:25.840 So we have Douglas Wilson, Brian Sauve, Dr. Joe Boot.

00:03:28.960 We also have Michael Foster now joining the lineup and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.

00:03:34.440 And one last important thing with this conference that's a new announcement to make is that

00:03:39.540 we're going to be doing a live Theology Applied episode at the conference, and for that episode

00:03:45.540 I'm going to have Doug Wilson, I'm going to have Michael Foster, and I'm also going to

00:03:51.340 have Eric Kahn from its, not It's Good to Be a Man, but Hard Man Podcast is the name

00:03:56.820 of his podcast.

00:03:57.680 So Eric Kahn and Michael Foster and Doug Wilson and myself, the four of us, will be doing

00:04:02.960 a 90-minute panel, a live theology applied episode at the conference on the topic of

00:04:09.780 biblical patriarchy.

00:04:11.100 What is it? 0.60

00:04:12.040 What is it not?

00:04:13.700 And really, it's a lot of the topics and themes that I'll be discussing in this episode today

00:04:18.600 we'll discuss at greater length, the four of us together, live at this conference.

00:04:23.320 So again, go to rightresponseconference.com to register for our spring conference.

00:04:28.980 The title is Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.

00:04:31.760 blueprints for chrysidom 2.0 march 1st 2nd and 3rd of next year all right now a brief word from

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00:06:17.820 today again that's squirrelyjoes.com to order your coffee today all right so what are the

00:06:26.480 distinctions between the 1970s and 80s and 90s patriarchal movement that was tied with the

00:06:33.920 homeschool movement and all those kinds of things trying to take america back for god

00:06:37.720 what are the distinctions between those groups of christians many of them professed they all

00:06:44.360 professed Christ and many of them I think probably really were regenerate godly people who love the

00:06:49.160 Lord but some of them were wolves some of them I think were I think they were just talking the

00:06:55.560 talk but what is the distinction between again the group you know that would follow the teachings

00:07:01.440 of you know Bill Gothard groups that would be lumped in largely you know with the Duggars and

00:07:07.780 the Pearls what's the distinction between their version of patriarchy and the biblical patriarchy

00:07:14.340 that I and individuals today would prescribe to.

00:07:18.220 If you're wondering, well, who are the people today?

00:07:20.380 Well, you know who they are.

00:07:22.640 They're the individuals that have been in a demeaning fashion

00:07:26.960 labeled as Theobros and Tradwives on Twitter and social media, right?

00:07:32.620 People who, well, I mean, we're all sinners.

00:07:35.860 We all make mistakes.

00:07:36.780 But in large part, it would be individuals who believe

00:07:39.520 that head coverings might actually be biblical

00:07:42.720 and that it certainly has the lion's share of church history in its corner,

00:07:47.900 that it's really a novelty, that we don't have head coverings today in the church.

00:07:52.560 It would be individuals who say, yeah, complementarianism had a lot of biblical roots,

00:07:57.280 but we think that at some level it was a halfway house between biblical patriarchy and egalitarianism

00:08:03.820 simply to appease feminists.

00:08:06.520 And John Piper, him and Wayne Grudem, who coined the phrase back, I believe it was 1988,

00:08:11.880 John Piper actually said as much he said that it was a way of trying with language to appease

00:08:17.920 those who were anti-patriarchal so yeah so the Theobros and Tradwives the biblical patriarchy

00:08:25.880 guys today were saying there are some problems with complementarianism it roots the distinction

00:08:30.940 and roles between men and women in design but only in the physical capacity only in the fact

00:08:36.980 that males and females differ they they have distinctions in design um at a physical level 0.92

00:08:42.400 but uh but nothing more than that um there's only the physical distinction women have hips 0.98

00:08:47.620 right so so they should nurture children you know men have biceps so they should go to war 1.00

00:08:52.640 uh literal physical war but beyond that uh the cry of the complementarian uh if she's a woman

00:08:59.000 is anything you can do i can do better i can do anything better than you but i won't because i'm

00:09:03.820 not called to but i could right so yeah the biblical patriarchy guys today are saying maybe

00:09:09.360 that's not the strongest biblical you know position that's not the witness of church history

00:09:14.380 and so it's basically you know the biblical patriarchy guys today are saying hey maybe we

00:09:19.740 shouldn't just have boomer theology right and what i mean by that is theology that has really

00:09:24.440 only been believed in the west by christians for the last 60 years for well over 1900 years

00:09:32.880 nobody believed these things so it's a novelty so we're getting back to um well we're getting

00:09:39.300 back to church history we're getting back to the scripture we're getting back to what virtually

00:09:43.160 all of humanity certainly all of christian influenced humanity in the west believed for

00:09:48.640 over 19 centuries um so anyways you can call you can call us theobros you can call us trad wives

00:09:54.780 and certainly you'll be able to find a crazy crackpot here or there who will um who will make 0.99

00:10:01.300 all your dreams come true by saying something stupid that I and others would not actually agree 1.00

00:10:06.600 with. But that's who I'm basically going to be comparing and contrasting in this video. The 0.99

00:10:10.920 1980s kind of guys, people like the Duggars, the Pearls, Bill Gothard versus the Theobro Tradwives 0.95

00:10:18.540 today. Myself, I would be one of them. Dale Partridge would be one of them. Eric Kahn, 1.00

00:10:24.000 Brian Sauve, Michael Foster. There are some distinctions, but for the most part, we're on

00:10:28.340 the same page. We have different strategies, but we're reasoned. We're reasoned, and we're trying

00:10:33.580 to be careful, and we're trying to say, hey, this is what patriarchy is. This is what it's not.

00:10:37.100 There is such a thing as abusive patriarchy, and that's kind of what I'm going to be addressing

00:10:41.800 in this video, because I think there were some legitimate abuses underneath the patriarchal

00:10:47.540 banner in the past decades, and I think that this new documentary, Shiny Happy People, reveals

00:10:53.860 some real abuses. However, the problem is that it does what most godless documentaries do. So you

00:10:59.260 might remember another documentary that was made by unbelievers, namely Christianity Today,

00:11:04.340 The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. And I mean that. I'm not just trying to be snarky. I believe that 0.86

00:11:09.940 there were probably the same percentage of regenerate, truly regenerate people involved

00:11:14.520 in making shiny, happy people as there were in The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Christianity Today

00:11:20.660 is not Krishna it's just not and I believe that there are several individuals if not the vast

00:11:27.360 majority of those individuals who at least publicly are not displaying any significant

00:11:33.840 fruit of the spirit and so I don't you know I don't see the heart I don't have election goggles 0.95

00:11:37.640 but I have no reason with confidence to say that these people are actually Christians 0.95

00:11:40.980 now there's a similarity in the difference between these two things right so the the rise and fall

00:11:46.760 of Mars Hill that got a lot of momentum for a while and it was saying you know Driscoll's the

00:11:50.160 worst person who's ever lived he's terrible here's the difference though I you know I've watched

00:11:55.720 four episodes so far now I think that's all that's available right now with this new documentary you

00:12:00.780 know the shiny happy people and what it chronicles are legitimate abuses and that's not to say that

00:12:07.520 the rise and fall of Mars Hill with you know that Mark Driscoll didn't actually have real failures

00:12:12.320 but I want to first draw out that there's a massive difference between the failures of Mark

00:12:18.500 Driscoll, right? Well, he was mean, or he was quarrelsome, or, you know, he was emotionally

00:12:25.780 abusive behind the scenes, which I can neither confirm nor deny, right? That behind the scenes

00:12:31.620 in some of his staff meetings and pastoral meetings and some of these things, or maybe

00:12:35.700 even counseling with some members in the church, he, you know, he cursed at someone. If those

00:12:41.700 things are all true, there are significant problems with that. And an argument can certainly be made

00:12:48.040 if those things are true especially a repetitive pattern that he actually was disqualified from

00:12:52.400 ministry but the distinction between the rise and fall of Mars Hill with Driscoll versus this new

00:12:59.080 documentary dealing with Bill Gothard and the pearls and things like that is that what's being

00:13:05.660 chronicled in this documentary shiny happy people is not he raised his voice or he yelled or he was 0.86

00:13:13.840 quarrelsome it's uh he raped me he molested children and in the case of josh duggar he 0.76

00:13:22.140 molested children and confessed to it and admitted it and has been found guilty right so i just want 0.93

00:13:29.340 to draw those are some pretty big distinctions uh the similarity though between these two

00:13:34.000 hit pieces is that they're hit pieces the rise and fall of mars hill by one group of non-christians

00:13:40.640 called Christianity Today, and the documentary, Shiny Happy People, another group of non-Christians,

00:13:46.820 both of them are lumping in conservative Christians with individuals who actually were

00:13:54.480 abusive, right? So the rise and fall of Mars Hill was not just trying to say, hey, Mark Driscoll

00:13:59.560 took it too far. No, they have a whole episode where they basically say, you know, the root of

00:14:05.700 a lot of these problems isn't actually Driscoll and his personal decisions or his individual

00:14:10.360 personality. But the real root of the problem is any biblical theology that says that men

00:14:17.660 are called to lead and love like Christ. Male headship, as just a sweeping doctrine,

00:14:25.860 that's the problem. So what Christianity today did was it didn't just attack Driscoll and Mars 0.88

00:14:31.540 Hill, one individual pastor and one individual church. It attacked traditional conservative

00:14:37.380 christianity across the board and in that sense that's very similar to shiny happy people which

00:14:45.200 does the same thing um saying that you know it very much um explicitly even not just implicitly

00:14:51.700 but even explicitly making the statements that um homeschooling children christians choosing to

00:14:56.820 homeschool children is cultish um certainly they address homeschooling children with the purpose

00:15:02.820 that these children would grow up in the fear and admonition of the lord with conservative

00:15:06.200 traditional biblical virtues and values, and then seek positions of influence in the civil sphere,

00:15:13.120 run for local office, or these kinds of things in government and politics, that that's a terrible,

00:15:17.540 terrible thing. No, it's not. And, you know, my pushback to that would be by, you know, by what

00:15:25.620 standard, right? I mean, that's what progressives and leftists and godless people have been doing

00:15:30.500 for decades. They send their kids to public schools that are right now, you know, if anybody's

00:15:35.480 taking summer classes it's painted you know with rainbow vomit everywhere and you've got the homo 1.00

00:15:40.620 jihad convincing every single child as young as you've got pornography in the school libraries 0.99

00:15:46.440 at middle schools and even in some cases elementary schools you've got all this indoctrination from

00:15:52.540 the left and certainly there's a push to you know you can be anything you want to be and you can be

00:15:57.540 influential and you can be in politics you could be the next president of the united states so

00:16:01.560 the same thing is happening right it's not whether but which everybody's doing that everybody is

00:16:07.920 teaching children what they believe is true and then telling children to reach for the stars and

00:16:12.760 to make a difference in the world so so that that as just a raw basic premise of teaching children

00:16:21.400 your convictions and then telling those children to live out those convictions in meaningful

00:16:26.800 influential ways in the real world that is not inherently good or bad the question is what are

00:16:33.360 you teaching them is what you're teaching them actually true right so in that sense i think that

00:16:39.700 these two things i'm comparing them because i think there's a lot of similarities between the

00:16:43.200 rise and fall of mars hill and the shiny happy people both are are not just you know a hit piece

00:16:49.720 on individual churches or individual pastors or ministers or men, but as they draw out real 0.67

00:16:58.660 failures, they sweep up every conservative Bible-believing Christian into the orbit and

00:17:05.880 paint them all as nefarious and bad. And I think that that's a serious problem. That said, I think

00:17:12.900 whatever abuses allegedly Driscoll may have committed, they pale in comparison to the legitimate

00:17:19.240 abuses that took place that the shiny happy people documentary is showcasing i think that

00:17:25.060 there are some serious failures all right so all that being established now i want to get to some

00:17:29.820 distinctions between the shiny happy people version 1980s you know 70s 80s and 90s version

00:17:36.500 of patriarchy versus the biblical patriarchy that there seems to be a resurgence of today that's why

00:17:41.800 this is relevant why it matters one because it's dealing with something that is inherently true

00:17:48.060 in god's word patriarchy simply means father rule it is a biblical doctrine it's what the church of

00:17:53.180 jesus christ has held to all the way up until about 15 minutes ago so this is something that's

00:18:00.160 true and it's something that right now mainstream media is trying to dismantle single-handedly

00:18:06.940 dismantle with this documentary and so it's something that's worth talking about but it's

00:18:11.760 extra relevant because i think that right now within certain reformed circles there are individual

00:18:18.480 pastors and leaders such as myself who are gaining influence and there seems to be a very recent

00:18:25.620 present right now it's happening resurgence of patriarchal views father rule male headship

00:18:32.080 patriarchal views rising and then you have the release of this documentary that says patriarchy

00:18:38.220 is really, really bad, but all the examples, all the evidence of bad patriarchy is not bad

00:18:43.840 patriarchy from today. It's bad patriarchy from, again, the 70s, 80s, and 90s. It's not the bad

00:18:49.480 patriarchy of, you know, Douglas Wilson or Michael Foster or Joel Webin. It's the bad patriarchy of

00:18:57.120 Bill Gothard and the Pearls and the Duggars, all right? And there is some very big distinctions

00:19:04.720 between those guys of the 1970s and 80s and 90s

00:19:08.880 versus the guys who are trying, by God's grace,

00:19:13.280 to dust off this doctrine of patriarchy and say,

00:19:15.840 it's biblical.

00:19:16.580 Yes, it's been abused.

00:19:18.040 Yes, it's been abused.

00:19:19.220 We acknowledge that. 0.96

00:19:20.360 But it's biblical, and it's true, and it's right.

00:19:22.700 It's biblical, it's true, and it's right.

00:19:24.780 We are not on the same team.

00:19:26.340 Big distinctions between the two of us.

00:19:28.180 So, here's the first.

00:19:29.940 There is a distinction between fear and faith.

00:19:32.880 a distinction between fear and faith if you look at the Duggars you look at the Pearls you look at

00:19:40.160 Bill Gothard you look at the movement that the shiny happy people is is emphasizing what they're

00:19:48.900 what they're showcasing that movement of Christians by and large well over 90 percent of them were

00:19:56.700 dispensational premillennial they were premillennial dispensationalists um in a nutshell

00:20:04.120 there's a lot and i've talked about dispensationalism plenty in the past so you can

00:20:08.080 watch some of my old videos if you want to know what dispensationalism is and the problems that

00:20:12.360 i find with it or if you want to know you know premillennialism as an eschatology what that

00:20:16.860 means so let me just give you a nutshell definition the dispensational premillennials

00:20:22.100 believe that Jesus is going to return

00:20:25.400 and that he's going to return relatively soon.

00:20:28.680 That he could come back any moment now,

00:20:31.060 which is true, even from a post-millennial

00:20:33.180 or all-millennial perspective,

00:20:34.560 Jesus, no man knows the day or the hour.

00:20:36.800 But the pre-mill dispensationalist

00:20:39.120 believes Jesus is very likely

00:20:41.120 going to come back next Thursday.

00:20:42.700 I mean, really soon, really soon.

00:20:45.180 And more than just that,

00:20:46.740 not just the soonness of Christ's return,

00:20:49.380 but also that everything is going

00:20:51.120 to get progressively worse until he does return so jesus is coming back soon and until he does

00:20:58.280 everything is going to get progressively worse it's going to spiral into greater and greater

00:21:03.600 immorality okay so that was one of the dominant theological viewpoints and eschological viewpoints

00:21:11.340 of the patriarchal homeschool movement with the duggars and the pearls and bill gothard from the

00:21:18.680 1970s 80s and 90s um that is a massive distinction between the patriarchal guys today

00:21:25.700 the trad wives and theo bros who are being made of fun of you know because that's what you do

00:21:31.360 right you you just you you coddle left and you punch right right that's what conservatives do

00:21:37.840 today you know even christian conservatives sadly you coddle left and you punch right and so as some

00:21:44.080 conservative people that i really would consider us to be on the same team as they're punching us

00:21:49.680 because you know we're a couple inches to the right of them um you know calling you know saying 0.98

00:21:55.980 that oh well this is ridiculous and you know this is you know this patriarchy is it's hyper 0.55

00:22:00.540 patriarchy whatever one thing that i would hope that they would realize um is that pretty much 0.93

00:22:06.760 everyone on my team within this patriarchal space biblical patriarchy we're not dispensational and

00:22:14.780 we're not pre-millennialist we're not we are post-millennial and we adhere to covenant theology

00:22:21.000 post-millennial and we adhere to covenant theology now you might be saying well why does it matter

00:22:26.080 here are just some practical implications that come from those two massive christian worldviews

00:22:32.720 right? Whether if you're a pre-mill dispensationalist versus a covenant

00:22:36.080 post-millennial guy, here are some of the distinctions. It's the distinction,

00:22:40.560 the difference between immediate and patient. Immediate

00:22:44.220 and patient. The dispensational pre-mill person, 0.91

00:22:48.680 a lot of times what they're going to do is they're just going to opt out

00:22:52.440 of any kind of culture war. And I'm grateful

00:22:56.380 for guys, older guys in the 1970s and 80s and 90s

00:23:00.880 who said, we're not going to do that.

00:23:02.480 We're not just going to opt out.

00:23:04.300 Jesus, yeah, we think he might come back next Thursday,

00:23:06.460 but he also might come back in 50 years.

00:23:08.860 And if he's going to come back in 50 years,

00:23:10.540 then my children are going to have to live,

00:23:12.620 you know, the vast majority of their lives in this world,

00:23:15.600 and I'd like it to not be a hellhole.

00:23:17.480 And so we're not going to opt out of culture,

00:23:20.760 but we're actually going to engage.

00:23:22.580 And so praise God for that standpoint.

00:23:24.540 But with that standpoint, if you're, you know,

00:23:27.320 a lot of dispensational guys just opt out.

00:23:29.520 They don't really engage, right?

00:23:30.700 Everything's spiritual, and it's not necessarily cultural.

00:23:34.440 It's not tangible, right?

00:23:36.380 So they're not really going to engage in some of these things.

00:23:38.840 But there are plenty of dispensational guys who do, to be fair.

00:23:42.520 Plenty of dispensational guys who do engage.

00:23:45.420 However, if you are a dispi pre-mill person, and you're not on the opting out side of things,

00:23:50.660 but you're on the, let's press in and engage and make a different side of things,

00:23:54.540 by virtue of your eschatology and the way that you read the scripture you're going to say let's

00:24:02.060 make a difference and it needs to happen today so you're going to be pushing for the whole enchilada

00:24:08.500 up front right away right it's been said you know that the church lives in the light of eternity

00:24:15.220 therefore we can afford to be patient but that is very much a post-millennial perspective if your

00:24:23.380 dispensational pre-mill, and you want to engage the culture, which I thank God for, right? You're

00:24:28.920 not just being a pietist. You're engaging. You're getting in. You're still going to have a sense of

00:24:35.180 urgency and immediacy that can be good. There are strengths that come from that, but it also,

00:24:41.140 at the same time, I think can be bad. There are certain pitfalls that come with that. So that's

00:24:45.340 one distinction. Pre-mill dispensationalists versus post-mill covenant theologians, right?

00:24:51.820 the resurgence of patriarchy that we're seeing today among some younger ministers and some older

00:24:58.260 ministers that across the board, they're post-mill and they're covenantal. None of them are

00:25:04.780 dispensational and none of them are pre-mill. They're covenantal, they're post-mill. There's

00:25:11.400 a patience instead of the immediacy. And then also there's an optimism instead of pessimism.

00:25:17.760 so instead of a pessimistic eschatology

00:25:20.360 that everything is destined by God

00:25:21.940 to get worse and worse until Christ returns

00:25:23.740 we believe that slowly

00:25:25.960 the leaven will work through the whole batch of dough

00:25:28.000 that slowly the mustard seed will grow

00:25:29.960 into a great tree

00:25:30.900 that slowly the stone cut by no human hands

00:25:33.420 will grow into an entire earth

00:25:35.960 filling mountain

00:25:36.860 but we believe that God's plan for the end of the world

00:25:40.260 is not cataclysmic

00:25:42.080 and sudden but gradual

00:25:43.840 and progressive

00:25:44.640 and that shapes your your strategy instead of having a five-year plan for how to take over

00:25:51.400 the world post-millennial christians have 500 year plans and that's not to you know to foster

00:25:58.560 apathy but that's to say no we want to make a significant change and we want it to be rooted

00:26:05.700 deeply in the scripture and in the world we want it to last we want to build to last so that's one

00:26:14.040 big difference of these you know the the people that are being portrayed in the shiny happy people

00:26:19.200 documentary they are patriarchal i think there's some hyper patriarchy and there are some legitimate

00:26:25.540 examples of abuse and i'll get to some of that here in a moment but the first distinction is

00:26:30.440 that they are the vast majority are dispensational instead of covenantal and they are pre-millennial

00:26:37.260 instead of post-millennial that would be one major difference the next difference that i want us to

00:26:42.760 look at is this the difference between in terms of parenting style the difference between threat

00:26:47.440 and promise threat and promise or the difference between you could say again fear versus security

00:26:55.800 fear versus security and this one is vital and it gets not just into dispensationalism and

00:27:01.760 eschatology but it gets into the gospel and it gets into reformed theology so i'll hit this in

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00:28:38.020 today. All right. So the difference between threat and promise. Again, this is a distinction

00:28:45.500 drawing out some of the major distinctions between the patriarchal, and I would argue not

00:28:50.180 in every case but in some cases hyper patriarchal guys from the 1970s 80s and 90s versus the

00:28:56.620 resurgence of biblical patriarchy that we find our ourselves witnessing today okay i think that

00:29:02.480 some of the 1970s 80s and 90s guys guys who are being displayed in this documentary happy you know

00:29:08.560 shiny happy people um i think some of them were hyper patriarchal that it was extra biblical

00:29:15.520 that it was legalistic and that in terms of parenting also in their marriage and the way

00:29:20.560 that they would correspond with their wives but especially in their parenting with their children

00:29:24.500 that relied heavily on threat threatening rather than promise it relied more on what could be lost

00:29:33.060 by the child than the security the security and so that being said what doctrine does this get

00:29:41.660 into? Well, it gets into Reformed theology. Again, there's just simply no denying the fact that the

00:29:47.540 vast majority of these individuals who were part of this movement, again, many of them regenerate,

00:29:53.400 many of them Christians, and many of them, I would argue the vast majority, not abusive. Okay.

00:29:59.780 But nonetheless, they do have some theological dispositions that I would strongly disagree with,

00:30:05.060 and I think that doctrine matters. So, most of them were Arminian, and I think that we just need 1.00

00:30:11.020 to recognize that theology matters there are implications direct implications for what we

00:30:16.260 believe and so in terms of their view of soteriology that word soteriology just means you know your

00:30:21.300 doctrine of salvation how does god save people what is salvation how does god save um they were

00:30:27.180 arminian um not reformed they were not calvinist um and so they relied very heavily on decisionism

00:30:35.560 revivalism

00:30:37.300 very heavily on

00:30:39.780 the individual

00:30:41.460 and the choices that that individual

00:30:44.300 makes that at the end

00:30:46.400 of the day

00:30:46.800 election is not really a thing

00:30:50.440 for the Arminian it's not

00:30:52.300 you know some of them try to get

00:30:54.220 cute with biblical text and say well you know

00:30:56.220 God does elect people

00:30:57.300 but then when you press and say well what does that

00:31:00.160 election look like well because God is outside

00:31:02.160 of time before the foundations of the world were

00:31:04.220 laid, God looked into the future and saw all those who would choose him. And then based off of that

00:31:09.120 foreknowledge, which is not the biblical definite foreknowledge that's talked about in Ephesians

00:31:14.260 and in Peter's epistles, it's not talking about just knowing the future. It's to foreknow in an

00:31:20.460 intimate sense. God knows everyone in the future, but God doesn't save everyone. We're not

00:31:26.640 universalists. So God knew every person who would exist and every choice that they would make and

00:31:31.140 the very number of hairs on their heads. God knew, he foreknew everyone, but he didn't save

00:31:37.280 everyone. Foreknowledge in Ephesians and in Peter's epistles, what it's getting at is not

00:31:42.440 just the mere intellectual knowledge of someone's existence that's going to come about in the

00:31:48.380 future, but it's a relational knowing. It's an intimate knowing. God pre-loved. He foreknew and

00:31:54.200 pre-loved, salvificantly loved this individual and determined that he would elect them, choose

00:31:59.480 them for salvation. But again, the Arminian, if he has any doctrine of election whatsoever,

00:32:03.840 it's the idea that, you know, that God, you know, uses kind of a time warp because he's outside of

00:32:08.320 time. And so, you know, God, you know, before the foundations of the world were laid, he looked

00:32:12.140 into the future, he looked into all the people that he would create, and he looked at those

00:32:15.500 people and the decisions and choices they would make. And those people who God knew in eternity

00:32:21.100 past, looking forward, he knew that they would choose him, the people that God knew would choose

00:32:25.700 him god then went back into the past and chose them but that's not election that's i mean it is

00:32:32.040 election but it's man's election because essentially all that's saying is that uh that man chooses god

00:32:37.100 the contingent factor right the determining factor is that uh certain men choose god

00:32:43.300 and then god responds he reacts to man's choice of god by choosing the men and women and children

00:32:52.660 but the people, mankind, he chooses individuals who first choose him. And the only sense in which

00:32:59.140 God chooses them first is chronologically, but it's based off of his knowledge of what man would

00:33:04.080 do. So in chronological time, because God's outside of time and eternity past, technically

00:33:08.340 God makes the first choice in a chronological timeline, but in a logical sense, in a logical

00:33:14.040 timeline, not chronological, but logical, it is man's choice that ultimately has the final say

00:33:20.340 of whether or not God will choose man.

00:33:21.980 Man has to first choose God,

00:33:23.560 and then God warps back into eternity past

00:33:25.740 and chooses man.

00:33:27.560 If there's any doctrine of election

00:33:29.220 within the Arminian soteriology whatsoever,

00:33:33.720 the Arminian view of salvation,

00:33:36.040 that would be it.

00:33:37.500 So my point is,

00:33:39.340 it relies heavily on man, 0.80

00:33:41.680 man's decisions, right?

00:33:43.300 It's decisionism, revivalism,

00:33:47.040 make a choice, make a choice,

00:33:49.560 make a choice have have an experience uh have some kind of emotional you know eliciting experience

00:33:58.140 at this youth camp you know or this billy graham revival or you know and and then choose choose

00:34:05.340 um that's that's their soteriology and the 1970s and 80s and 90s you know patriarchal

00:34:13.780 homeschool movement kind of again a lot of really really great stuff um but also at the same time a

00:34:20.120 lot of bad doctrine and when it comes to their view of salvation again i'm not talking about

00:34:26.080 well some of them no the vast majority of them were arminian they were they were dispensational

00:34:32.080 pre-millennial arminians and that matters that affects everything including your home life

00:34:41.060 the way you view family the way you view marriage and the way you view parenting the way you view

00:34:46.780 parenting is going to be shaped by the way you think god as a heavenly father adopts children

00:34:53.620 how does god save children how does god turn enemies into adopted sons how does god save

00:35:03.300 is going to affect how you parent it is so arminian versus calvinist threat versus promise

00:35:12.080 within that framework are arminians not only is it relying you know heavily on man's initial

00:35:19.140 choice of god and then god simply reacts to man's choice and chooses him back not only is it there

00:35:25.220 this contrast between arminian and calvinist views of salvation soteriology but within that framework

00:35:32.160 there's the difference the distinction between losing salvation versus eternal security of the

00:35:38.920 believer right once saved always saved perhaps better articulated if saved always saved sure

00:35:46.040 Matthew 7 is true many will say on that day Lord Lord we did this in your name did that in your

00:35:50.500 name but notice the Lord's response he doesn't say I used to know you when you chose me and were

00:35:55.920 following me but I don't know you anymore because you stopped choosing me and you chose sin and you

00:36:01.640 walked away and so i knew you for a while but know you no longer that's not what matthew 7 says it

00:36:09.040 says many will claim christ on that final day lord lord we did this in your name that in your name

00:36:14.080 but the lord jesus will respond not by saying i used to know you for a time but i don't know you

00:36:19.000 any longer but rather he'll say depart from me you evil workers of iniquity i never knew you

00:36:25.880 so these aren't people who lost their salvation they are people who never had salvation they

00:36:32.380 professed belief in christ they walk the walk and talk the talk but they never these are not people

00:36:37.700 who who actually were saved for a while and then walked out of that umbrella to use gothard's

00:36:43.460 you know big teaching illustration that you know they were under the umbrella and they were safe

00:36:49.080 and then they walked out of the no they were never under the umbrella they were under god's wrath

00:36:53.840 the whole time. Children of God's wrath, according to Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 and Romans.

00:36:59.340 They were never saved. They professed faith, but they did not possess faith. And again,

00:37:07.140 doctrine matters. Arminian versus Calvinist makes a difference. And not just in your view of

00:37:12.880 salvation, but that view of salvation and how you read the scripture and all of scripture in light

00:37:17.200 of these doctrines is going to affect the way that you live, including the way you live at home

00:37:21.540 as a husband and a father can we lose our salvation or not so Arminian versus Calvinist

00:37:27.800 salvation being something that could be lost versus the eternal security of the believer

00:37:33.100 and then another thing that comes out of this is works versus unconditional election grace

00:37:39.460 works versus grace you might say well no no no these guys the 70s and 80s they didn't believe

00:37:44.400 that we were saved by works you can hear their gospel proclamation you know that we're saved 0.99

00:37:48.860 by faith alone that we're all sinners we've all fallen short and that's true the Duggars would 0.90

00:37:52.780 affirm that that we've fallen short of the glory of God we're all sinners we all deserve hell

00:37:58.560 and that ultimately we're not saved by works there's no way that we can earn the love of God

00:38:03.520 by our good behavior we've already missed the mark too far and therefore we are solely reliant

00:38:10.700 on the grace of god amen that's true um but again here's the thing um is a choice a work

00:38:19.020 is a choice of work or maybe i could put it in the opposite sense is making the wrong choice

00:38:27.720 is that is that a bad work is that a sinful work is that a sin like the way that you know when i

00:38:35.800 used to argue with armenians all the time which i you know by god's grace i you know don't do that

00:38:41.520 very often these days uh but you know there was a time uh where you know a lot of armenians were 0.99

00:38:47.420 you know picking fights and i was picking some fights myself and you know and having these kind

00:38:52.140 of conversations and you know people would say you know i would always say well okay did jesus

00:38:57.580 die for all the sins of every single person or did he die for the sins of the elect you know and

00:39:04.820 I'd say, well, no, Jesus died for everyone.

00:39:06.680 Of course, Jesus didn't just die for some people.

00:39:08.660 He died for everyone.

00:39:09.940 Universal atonement.

00:39:11.260 He died for every single person and all their sins.

00:39:13.920 And then I would say, okay, well, why do people go to hell?

00:39:18.380 Because we're not just talking about God's mercy.

00:39:20.600 In this instance, we're actually talking about God's justice.

00:39:23.420 It is not just for God, who claims to be a just judge,

00:39:27.020 to exact double payment for the same crime.

00:39:30.360 So a person defies him and lives a life of sin against him.

00:39:33.640 but if Jesus died for that person

00:39:35.660 because he died for each and every individual person

00:39:38.340 a universal atonement

00:39:39.480 Jesus didn't just die for God's people

00:39:41.340 but he died for all people

00:39:42.680 if this is the case

00:39:43.980 and Jesus died for everyone

00:39:45.520 each and every individual

00:39:46.820 and Jesus, you know, the wages of sin is death

00:39:49.940 and Jesus is, you know, he who knew no sin became sin

00:39:53.400 so that we might inherit the righteousness of God

00:39:55.440 so the sins not just of the elect

00:39:57.980 but the sins of every individual person

00:40:00.020 who has ever lived and ever will

00:40:01.240 were imputed to Christ

00:40:02.700 they were laid upon his shoulder and then jesus he merited the wages of sin what sin earns what

00:40:09.180 sin deserves namely death and he died under the wrath of god on the cross at calvary

00:40:14.620 and paid the full penalty for sin and he did that for everyone then the question is why do people go

00:40:21.540 to hell right and to which you know the arminian and you know fundamental fundamentalist you know

00:40:26.380 independent baptist is going to respond and say well you know jesus died for everyone's sin but

00:40:30.520 but you have to choose to receive that gift so jesus it's like his atonement is wrapped in a

00:40:38.060 in a present you know and it's and it's offered to every single individual person you know but

00:40:42.060 some people just they never open the gift they refuse it in their arrogance and pride you know

00:40:45.940 and and uh and so yeah jesus did die for all their sins but you have to receive his death

00:40:52.200 for your sins to which my counter would simply be is choosing to reject jesus death for sin

00:40:57.620 a sin? And if Jesus died for all of your sins, did he die for the sin of rejecting his death

00:41:03.380 for sin? It's so silly. I mean, this is why I don't argue with Arminians anymore, because 0.99

00:41:09.600 I don't argue with Arminians for the same reason I don't argue with my two-year-old, 0.97

00:41:14.580 right? Because it's not productive. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be overly 1.00

00:41:20.180 demeaning, but it's just, it's not the witness of church history. It's not the teachings of

00:41:25.880 scripture. And it's just not, I just don't think it's helpful to entertain it. I think, you know,

00:41:30.020 by engaging too much, you're giving credence to the view. Like this is, this is a really

00:41:34.760 legitimate view. No, it's not. It's just not. So I think let's just, let's hold to biblical theology

00:41:39.600 and move on. Hold to biblical theology and move on. So all that being said, everybody limits the

00:41:45.960 atonement, right? The Arminian would say, you know, well, we, we hold to, you know, universal

00:41:49.680 atonement that Jesus died for everyone. Okay, fine. But you're still limiting the atonement.

00:41:54.720 See, because what you're saying is that the atonement is not limited in its scope of individuals who Jesus died for.

00:42:01.540 He died universally for each and every individual.

00:42:03.780 But that atonement doesn't cover all of their sin.

00:42:07.180 See, the Calvinist limits the atonement in terms of the number of people that Christ died for.

00:42:12.460 The Arminian limits the atonement in terms of how many sins of all people Christ died for.

00:42:17.680 Because they believe there's at least one sin that Jesus did not atone for.

00:42:21.740 and that's the sin of rejecting jesus atonement which of course is a sin now here's the further

00:42:28.420 problem right let's just play it out just a little bit more and then we'll move on the further

00:42:31.560 problem is if you you know if the arminian you say okay so jesus died for everyone's sin each and

00:42:36.500 every individual person all their sins except for the sin of not choosing to accept his death for

00:42:43.020 their sins great well then based off of your view you would have to say that that the people in hell

00:42:48.820 right now today that the only sin that they are suffering in hell for that they're being punished

00:42:55.920 by God for is the sin of rejecting Jesus and his substitutionary death his atonement his salvation

00:43:03.580 that's the only sin they're being punished for because Jesus died for all their other sins so

00:43:08.560 there's no one in hell today being punished for the sin of murder or the sin of lust or perversion

00:43:14.660 or theft or lying bearing false witness well how do you square that with volumes of biblical texts

00:43:22.760 that talk about how this individual will not inherit the the you know the kingdom of god and

00:43:28.380 it's not just the individual who rejects jesus will not inherit uh the kingdom of god or the

00:43:32.860 individual who has unbelief in the gospel will not inherit the kingdom of god but no liars and 0.99

00:43:38.020 perjurers those who are disobedient to their parents the homosexual uh the the perverts 0.99

00:43:43.460 the cowardly right the coward will go to the lake of fire and he'll go to the lake of fire 1.00

00:43:48.980 not just because he rejected jesus he'll go to the lake of fire the coward will go to the lake of 0.97

00:43:53.540 fire for his cowardice and his rejection of jesus and he will be punished eternally under the white

00:44:01.380 hot wrath of god for not only the sin of rejecting jesus which is a very great sin if not the

00:44:07.200 greatest sin, but he will also be punished for other sins, lesser sins, like his sin of cowardice

00:44:16.200 or theft or lying or perversion or adultery or murder or anything else. And that's, again, that

00:44:24.800 is an indisputable testimony from not just one isolated passage, but the overarching theme of

00:44:34.380 scripture is that people go to hell for rejecting jesus yes and a litany of all the other sins

00:44:40.880 they've committed those sins were not atoned for so the arminian wants to limit the atonement

00:44:45.620 not in terms of the scope of the number of people who jesus has died for but in the number of sins

00:44:51.860 that jesus is atoned for and there's one sin that he didn't atone for and that's the sin of rejecting

00:44:56.440 his atonement but again that would logically conclude that the only sin that people therefore

00:45:01.340 are being punished for in hell is the one sin that jesus didn't atone for which is the sin of

00:45:05.940 rejecting his atonement but then what do you do with all the biblical texts that say that people

00:45:10.120 are being punished by god for other sins like lying like theft like you know so you get the

00:45:15.380 point again it's i've just at this point in my christian life and pastoral ministry i just you

00:45:23.300 know it's been a while i feel a little bit rusty but you know i just i don't have these arguments

00:45:27.420 anymore. Um, all that being said, if you're Arminian, you're going to parent like an Arminian.

00:45:36.680 If you're reformed, you're going to parent like you're reformed. If you're covenantal, 0.53

00:45:40.160 you're going to have covenantal parenting. If you're dispensational, you're going to have

00:45:42.920 dispensational parenting. If you're pre-millennial, you're going to be a pre-millennial parent.

00:45:47.200 And if you're post-millennial, you're going to be a post-millennial parent, right? So threat versus

00:45:52.040 promise. That's one of the distinctions that I'm raising out and in the marriage realm and especially

00:45:57.140 the parenting realm the difference between threat threatening parenting versus promised parenting

00:46:02.060 well that's arminianism versus calvinism it's can you lose your salvation right can you lose the

00:46:08.680 love of god versus are you eternally secure in god's unconditional love right in the same way

00:46:15.720 you know the arminian would say why you know nobody does anything to earn god's salvation

00:46:19.800 and so you can't do anything to lose it but if you press them you say but but do people make a

00:46:24.600 choice to receive god's salvation okay great and they'll say yes well you got to at least make the

00:46:31.480 right choice you know uh well okay so you don't do anything to earn it so you can't do anything

00:46:36.320 to lose it right well but you choose something to earn it and so you can make another choice to lose

00:46:41.340 it logically right and they'll say oh yeah i guess so yeah so you can you can walk out of the love of

00:46:50.420 god you can walk out of salvation you can walk out of fatherly affection you're not secure

00:46:58.260 not truly not truly it's the difference between works if you think of a choice

00:47:07.340 being a work which i would argue it is right john talks about is not by the the will of man

00:47:13.440 nor the work of man right it's not the flesh it's not the work it's not the will

00:47:18.460 so we don't earn salvation by doing good deeds but we also don't earn salvation by

00:47:24.440 making some great choice right that the difference between christians and everybody else is that you

00:47:31.140 know at the end of the day christians are just a little wiser just a little better you know not

00:47:35.680 really better in terms of their deeds but they're a little better in the terms of you know well they

00:47:40.560 just they were able to open their eyes and survey the land and see well this is sin this is satan

00:47:45.120 this is god this is his love and they just made the better choice the calvinist doesn't believe

00:47:50.920 that but at some level the arminian does they do so the 1970s and 80s and 90s when i would argue

00:48:00.860 not all of them but some of them hyper patriarchal guys they were dispensational they were not

00:48:06.300 covenantal they were pre-mill they were not post-mill they were arminian they were not

00:48:11.020 calvinist they believe that you could walk out of god's love walk out of salvation by decisionism

00:48:16.780 same thing that got you in can get you out decisionism revivalism man's choice man's choice

00:48:23.800 and that does affect the way that you parent whether there's security and promise versus

00:48:31.200 threatening and judgment all right here's another one independent fundamental baptist

00:48:37.880 versus confessional reformed theology. 0.85

00:48:44.560 The tradwives and theobros of today's resurgence of patriarchy,

00:48:50.700 again, there's always going to be somebody who hops on the train,

00:48:55.580 who starts drinking the Kool-Aid, who says,

00:48:57.360 hey, this is the cool new thing, and who's wacky and weird

00:49:00.780 and doesn't really understand the arguments and takes it too far.

00:49:04.640 But in terms of the leaders, I'm talking about today's pre-war,

00:49:07.880 present-day leaders within the patriarchal position, within Christianity, they are all

00:49:15.500 reformed. They're not Arminian. They're all post-Milman, as far as I know. They're not

00:49:20.120 pre-Milman. They're all covenantal. They're not dispensational. And they're all confessional.

00:49:27.460 That's the next distinction I'm drawing out. They're not independent fundamental Baptists.

00:49:33.960 And you guys have heard me talk about independent fundamental Baptists before.

00:49:37.880 probably, if you follow this show at all. So, I won't go into a, you know, ridiculously thorough

00:49:44.200 diatribe, but suffice it to say, again, there are some legitimate good brothers within that camp,

00:49:52.380 that theological camp, that I'm grateful for. But again, I think it's wrong. I think it's wrong,

00:49:57.800 and that doesn't mean that it's heretical. I'm not, you know, you can have, there are wrong

00:50:03.660 doctrines that aren't heresy armenianism for that example i think it's unbiblical i think it's wrong

00:50:09.700 but it's not heresy it's not heresy pelagianism is and sadly a lot of armenians today actually

00:50:17.180 are pelagians and so in that sense it would be a heresy i don't have time to flesh that out but

00:50:21.860 the point is not not all doctrine that is unbiblical is is necessarily you know fits the

00:50:29.100 criteria for heresy right so there are plenty of independent fundamental baptists who they're not

00:50:35.060 false teachers in the capital f capital t sense they're not heretics many of them are good

00:50:42.760 regenerate christians who love the lord are seeking to live a biblical traditional conservative

00:50:48.980 you know life in their home and and in every other aspect but there are some problems

00:50:55.160 by and large right of course there's always going to be some exceptions to the rule but by and large

00:51:01.200 the independent fundamental baptist believes that they're right and the first century church

00:51:08.240 is right and everybody from about 80 100 to up until you know about 150 years ago 0.92

00:51:20.140 that all of them were wrong from AD 100 all the way until very recently um you know the vast

00:51:27.840 majority of church history sure there were some good things here or there but for the most part

00:51:31.740 they're wrong independent fundamental baptist um I would not say I think this is fair I'm trying to

00:51:37.900 be fair um I think it's fair to say that the independent fundamental baptist is not necessarily

00:51:43.400 what we would say is a great esteemer of church history.

00:51:50.660 You know, if we're thinking of different theological camps

00:51:53.280 and different denominations and different groups of Christians,

00:51:55.780 we're saying, you know, which denominations,

00:51:58.500 which, you know, which traditions within, you know,

00:52:01.380 the larger evangelical tent, you know, which one,

00:52:04.740 which of them, you know, really esteem

00:52:06.840 and really value church history? 0.94

00:52:08.900 I don't think that independent fundamental Baptist

00:52:11.380 would make the top 50 on that list

00:52:15.360 or the top few hundred on that list.

00:52:19.840 They're just not big fans, right?

00:52:22.700 Let's get back to the book of Acts. 1.00

00:52:26.020 Let's get back to the early church

00:52:27.520 because we got off track

00:52:29.100 and everybody's been wrong

00:52:31.440 until fairly recently.

00:52:34.040 Primitive Baptist would be one expression

00:52:35.980 that got back on track with them

00:52:38.360 or got back on track with this other group.

00:52:40.460 you know but but for well over 1500 years we've been you know we've been missing the mark

00:52:46.680 um so again that would be one difference between the patriarchal guys and some of these guys and

00:52:54.240 not just followers but leaders within that movement of the 1970s 80s and 90s some of them

00:52:59.080 being hyper patriarchal another distinction between them doctrinally and kind of the guys

00:53:05.380 who are brushing off this doctrine of patriarchy saying i think this is good i think this is the

00:53:09.420 witness of church history we need to get back to this is what the bible teaches another big

00:53:13.180 distinction is the lion's share of them were independent fundamental baptists yes a lot of

00:53:20.540 them were southern baptists but even the southern baptists were still of the arminian for the most

00:53:27.380 part the arminian sort and not the reformed sort they were big on decisionism revivalism

00:53:36.120 arminianism independent fundamentalist they were not reformed post-millennial covenantal

00:53:47.580 and they also weren't confessional so when i say that the guys that i know right the

00:53:55.320 theobros and trad wives today we're saying no biblical patriarchy is biblical it is good

00:54:01.260 it can be abused we need to be careful but it is good it's good um again i don't know any of

00:54:09.720 any of the leaders in this movement for lack of a better term who are not postmill who are not

00:54:16.260 reformed who are not covenantal and who also are not confessional not just reformed in the sense

00:54:23.780 that they're calvinistic but they are confessionally reformed they all hold either to the

00:54:31.080 1689 london baptist confession of faith or for the most part the westminster meaning that there's

00:54:38.380 a long-standing tradition centuries of being able to say we're pointing to these guys we're not

00:54:46.080 we're not picking a doctrine out of a hat and saying hey you know nobody's really held to this

00:54:51.900 But, you know, but we think, you know, we think that the first century church did and then everybody dropped it for 1900 years, but we're picking it back up.

00:55:00.660 No, we're saying no, that this is this goes all the way through, you know, the reformed tradition for the last 500 years.

00:55:07.000 And then even before that, it tracks all the way back to Athanasius and to Augustine.

00:55:10.820 And this is what this person said and what that person said.

00:55:13.120 And sure, we're not saying that church history is an infallible source of authority like the scripture, subservient to the scripture.

00:55:20.400 but church history is an authority guys confessions are an authority they're not infallible only the

00:55:28.780 scripture is infallible but even the doctrine of sola scriptura people they just they don't get

00:55:33.880 this so even reform guys don't understand sola scriptura sola scriptura means that not that

00:55:38.240 scripture is the only authority sola scriptura means that scripture is the only infallible

00:55:43.680 authority the only authority that's perfect that never errs it's the only infallible authority and

00:55:49.640 it's the highest authority but it's not the only authority because scripture itself testifies to

00:55:54.480 other authorities and church history is one of them and so one of the points that i want to make

00:55:59.560 on this the difference between confessional christianity versus independent fundamentalist

00:56:05.960 baptist which again that's another distinction between the 1970s 80s and 90s guys pearls

00:56:12.300 duggars bill gothard versus some of the guys today who would describe themselves as being

00:56:19.340 patriarchal one of the big differences is the guys today are confessional and love church history

00:56:25.720 the guys of yesteryear were independent fundamentalist baptist or arminian revivalism

00:56:33.200 kind of southern baptist very detached from from the full breadth of history from the apostles all

00:56:42.160 the way up to present day it's just nope here we are we just we just appeared in a vacuum and we're

00:56:49.220 doing church and we're doing it right pure unadulterated true and there are problems

00:56:56.120 there are problems with that mindset the mindset of we just appeared we don't really have a history

00:57:01.800 and also jesus is going to return next thursday and so we just appeared and we're about to

00:57:06.780 disappear i'm just i'm just telling you there are problems with with that kind of theology again i'm

00:57:13.540 not saying it's heresy the ifb guys are not heretics some of them are but you know but not

00:57:19.880 not inherently it's not inherently heretical and dispensational premillennialism is not heretical

00:57:24.600 but but what you got to realize in terms of practical implications of that you put those

00:57:30.740 two things together you combine them together right not every disby you know premill guy is

00:57:34.720 an independent fundamentalist baptist who disdains church history and not every independent

00:57:38.820 fundamentalist baptist well actually they are all dispensational and premill so never mind

00:57:43.040 um but my point is when you get both when you get the combo ifb and you know dispensational

00:57:49.920 premill you're basically saying that the church is something that that is you know it doesn't

00:57:56.240 really have much of a history and doesn't have much of a future just kind of you know there was

00:58:00.640 the book of acts and the early church first century church and we're trying to get back to

00:58:03.720 that minus speaking in tongues you know god forbid which i would agree i'm a cessationist

00:58:08.280 in terms of the sign gifts prophecy and tongues i think they've ceased but you know it's just

00:58:12.200 funny that we get back to the church you know the the book of acts but minus minus the sign gives

00:58:16.340 minus minus that um but really you know since the first century church and very recently in the last

00:58:23.360 hundred two hundred you know maybe three hundred years depending how you're counting and what exact

00:58:27.420 strain of you know independent fundamentalist baptist you might be from um we basically got

00:58:32.800 it we got a big gap we got a big gap where the church was just on a hiatus and you know we just

00:58:37.260 missed the mark. And so, you know, we don't have much of a history and we don't have much of a

00:58:42.280 future. Don't have much of a history because, you know, church history is just filled with a bunch 0.99

00:58:46.220 of losers who were wrong. And, uh, and we don't have much of a future because Jesus is coming

00:58:51.380 back in 15 minutes. And that kind of theology has some problems, has some problems. One of the

00:59:00.260 problems is, and this is ironic, but one of the problems is as it pertains again with like the

00:59:05.000 pearls for instance or i'll just you know i'll just use um gothard for a moment bill gothard

00:59:10.580 um bill gothard is all about you know the the husband and the father being an authority and

00:59:17.660 the fifth commandment for children right honor your father and mother that it may go well with

00:59:22.340 you that you may live a long life in the earth right it's the first commandment with a promise

00:59:26.180 and i would say yes and amen but here's the irony you're telling children to honor their father and

00:59:32.340 mother but you're doing it from a theological position that has no honor for spiritual fathers

00:59:40.080 and mothers you look at all of your church fathers all of your theological fathers for all the

00:59:49.200 centuries and the witness of church history that came before you and you spit on them you despise

00:59:57.100 them you don't think that they really made any legitimate contribution not not anything

01:00:04.000 significant basically just you know you've got the first century church chronicled in the new

01:00:11.840 testament particularly the book of acts they were on it and uh and then everybody missed it

01:00:17.040 all of your fathers missed it for for centuries for 15 16 17 18 100 years they missed it

01:00:25.360 but now you got it so so you don't honor your fathers but but children need to honor theirs

01:00:33.320 and i'm just i'm just drawing that out and that's an irony that's a problem who who is bill gother's

01:00:41.200 father right and and and and not just you know well this guy who you know is you know five years

01:00:48.340 older than me or ten years older than me like what what about what about other fathers what

01:00:52.820 about a hundred years before you what about 200 years before you what about 500 years what about

01:00:57.060 a thousand years what about 1500 years do you honor your church fathers do you honor your 0.99

01:01:04.120 spiritual fathers or do you think that they're they were just all dumb and if you think that 1.00

01:01:11.040 they were all dumb then don't you see the irony the irony of of your children eventually growing 1.00

01:01:18.260 up and thinking that you're dumb? Isn't that, at least in some sense, in a spiritual theological 1.00

01:01:24.080 sense, the example that you've set? Is it fathers are stupid? Now, a further ironing in the case of 1.00

01:01:34.040 Bill Gothard is that he doesn't have children. He wasn't married and didn't have kids, and yet

01:01:43.460 he's going around doing crusades on marriage and parenting which 0.58

01:01:48.380 yeah i just i think that's silly i think that's silly all right here's another thing

01:01:57.360 another distinction between the you know the resurgence of biblical patriarchy that we see

01:02:02.380 happening today which again we've got to be careful because some people will miss the mark

01:02:07.940 some people will abuse patriarchy some people will go into hyper patriarchy they'll go too far

01:02:12.800 and all those things so um it's not perfect it's not perfect but it is different and i believe by

01:02:20.680 god's grace it is distinctly and clearly better than some of the patriarchy from the 70s the 80s

01:02:28.600 and the 90s one other difference is that i think at least again the leaders i can't speak to every

01:02:36.120 you know every single person who's you know wearing the biblical patriarchy label you know

01:02:40.560 who has 12 followers on twitter you know i i i don't know everybody you know but i'm speaking

01:02:46.500 of leaders in this movement the patriarchal guys that i respect that i love that i think highly of

01:02:53.340 who are leaders and pastors in this theological position of biblical patriarchy they're they're

01:03:01.220 churchmen that's another distinction the guys today the patriarchal guys today are churchmen

01:03:07.520 and not all of them again but there were some significant leaders in the patriarchy of the past

01:03:17.480 recent past 70s 80s and 90s that were not churchmen what church did jim bob dugger uh was he

01:03:27.480 a member at and i i'm sure you know i mean like over the course of his life his marriage and his

01:03:34.660 you know being a father with his children i i hope i assume that there's at least you know

01:03:39.440 how did he at least had a couple legs in the race of a few years here or you know a couple

01:03:44.300 years there where he was a member in a biblically ordered church i hope i'm willing to extend the

01:03:51.700 benefit of the doubt but i know what i know is that there was at least if not the entire time

01:03:58.920 at least a very long period of time where church is just kind of something happening in the duggars

01:04:03.460 living room with maybe one or two other families that they're friends with there's not really

01:04:10.860 biblical eldership there's not really you know a biblical church membership there's not really

01:04:16.480 an understanding of the criteria of what makes church church and the ordinary means of grace

01:04:21.860 there's no sense of church order and liturgy and the means of grace being rightly administered to

01:04:28.180 the gathered saints on the Lord's Day with the preaching, the proper preaching of God's

01:04:32.880 Word and praying of God's Word and singing and psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and

01:04:38.060 singing of God's Word with the rightly administered sacraments of the Lord's Supper and baptism.

01:04:44.080 It's, I mean, it's hard.

01:04:46.460 It's really, really hard.

01:04:47.600 Even trying to be as charitable as possible, it's hard to say that at least for a long

01:04:52.600 period of time that it's hard to say that the church that the Duggars participated in

01:04:58.060 meets the biblical criteria for what actually qualifies as a church

01:05:03.300 you know and like from my knowledge and from what I know which I'm not omniscient you know and some

01:05:13.680 of you guys you might be listening to this and you're you know you're in your 60s and 70s and

01:05:17.540 you were blessed by this movement so you feel defensive you feel frustrated with some of the

01:05:21.320 things that i'm saying you may know some things that i don't i have no doubt but i tried to do

01:05:26.520 some serious research coming into this and from what i can tell bill gothard i wasn't really a

01:05:32.440 churchman he wasn't really a churchman this is not he wasn't even a family man for that matter

01:05:39.600 i find that again i silly is just the nicest way that is the nicest most charitable term

01:05:44.640 i could you know i can use but you got a guy teaching christians about marriage and family

01:05:53.520 and he's not a churchman he's not a pastor of a local church where he ministers week in week out

01:06:02.780 preaching the word expositionally through books of the bible and administering the sacraments to

01:06:08.980 the people of god rightly on the lord's day he's not a churchman and he's not even a family man

01:06:14.920 he doesn't have a wife he doesn't have children 0.63

01:06:19.800 but he's touching the thighs of somebody else's children

01:06:25.160 yeah that that that is that's a massive distinction so and and again this isn't

01:06:35.180 again, this isn't Joe Blow. This isn't some random follower of this movement of the 70s and the 80s

01:06:41.600 and 90s. This is the godfather, Bill Gotham. This is a big dog. This is a leader. I'm not just

01:06:49.480 a leader of, you know, thousands of leaders. No, this is like the leader.

01:06:57.540 And I understand. I know what slander is, right? I'm a biblical conservative.

01:07:02.360 i'm patriarchal and it's 2023 you think i haven't been slandered i know i know that people lie i'm

01:07:10.660 aware i'm aware um but there's a difference in people lying saying you know again think about

01:07:21.400 this in the case of driscoll right this is why i'm you know comparing and contrasting there's

01:07:25.340 some similarities but there's also some real distinctions think of the difference between

01:07:29.020 the rise and fall of Mars Hill. The rise and fall of Mars Hill, Christianity Today was not

01:07:34.080 attempting. I'm sure you can tell. If you got just a little bit of discernment, you should be able to

01:07:38.500 ascertain. Christianity Today was not trying to do Driscoll any favors in that podcast. Not any.

01:07:46.360 They were throwing their worst at him. They were. And anytime they tried to seem like, oh, but you

01:07:52.060 know, but we, you know, we want to be fair. We love just, no, no, no. Anytime that they even

01:07:56.920 appeared to be defending him or saying something positive about him it was only to bolster up their

01:08:02.720 credibility for the next hit for the next time they whacked him they hate mark driscoll i know

01:08:09.780 some of those individuals cosper mike cosper i i've met him this is not a driscoll fan these guys

01:08:17.420 hate driscoll hate him but here's my point they hate driscoll the whole series is a hit piece on

01:08:23.420 driscoll and yet the worst things that they can throw at him are you know he was arrogant he was

01:08:31.780 prideful he was quarrelsome he was divisive he was harsh he was crude that would probably be

01:08:39.600 their worst uh their worst accusation crude in some of his language overly sexualized uh in some

01:08:46.020 of his language but one thing that the rise and fall of mars hill never does is say that uh that

01:08:51.600 driscoll cheated on his wife that he molested children that he was an adulterer that he possessed

01:09:01.820 infidelity that there was sexual immorality in his actions that's never and and here's my point

01:09:09.240 christianity today never levied those accusations against driscoll and it's not because they like

01:09:15.640 him if there was even a hint right that's why the scripture says but among you must not even be a

01:09:23.240 hint of sexual immorality if there was a hint they would have they would have ran with it but they

01:09:28.820 didn't because as far as we know driscoll has not committed sexual immorality and again i'm not

01:09:37.780 saying that driscoll's great i'm not saying he's great driscoll threw reform theology under the bus

01:09:42.400 he had some buddy buddy with brian houston and some of the prosperity preaching guys that that

01:09:51.200 made me really really uncomfortable um so i'm not sitting here saying yeah mark driscoll i'm just

01:09:58.260 saying i'm comparing and contrasting shiny happy people with the rise and fall of mars hill saying

01:10:04.000 in both instances both of these docu series are done by individuals who hate the people that

01:10:10.080 they're doing the series about but in the shiny happy people instance the accusations that are

01:10:16.480 being levied sure some of it could be slander i'm sure i'm sure the majority right i'm willing to

01:10:21.200 take that position the majority is slander but the kind of accusations that that are that are

01:10:26.380 being levied some of them have been proven in courts of law and that's not to say a court of

01:10:31.980 law can't ever be wrong but i'm just saying when it's when it's top leaders and these are criminal

01:10:37.980 charges and it's instance after instance after instance um there's probably something there

01:10:48.200 there's probably something there and i don't think it's just my point again is not just that

01:10:55.320 the people who did the shiny happy people docuseries um that they just really hate bill

01:11:01.740 Gotham well no Mike Cosper really hates Mark Driscoll truly and if there was a chance of him

01:11:14.080 being able to throw out an accusation of Driscoll being sexually immoral and it even had a chance

01:11:18.900 of sticking he would have done it but there wasn't a chance there was a chance with Bill

01:11:25.860 Gotham there was a chance of that accusation being levied and it's sticking there was a chance with

01:11:34.740 the Duggars with Josh Duggar particularly of that accusation being levied levied and it's sticking

01:11:42.140 it being true and there was a chance in the case of Jim Bob Duggar his dad of the accusation of

01:11:49.340 not properly dealing with not just allegations made about your son but your son's own confession

01:11:56.860 to sexual immorality and molestation not dealing with it seriously sweeping it under the rug

01:12:07.040 those accusations can be made and they're sticking and i don't think it's just because

01:12:14.240 the world hates patriarchy

01:12:16.120 and hates Christianity. 0.82

01:12:18.520 I think it's because there were some 0.83

01:12:20.000 serious flaws.

01:12:21.860 There were some serious flaws and not

01:12:24.040 just what, there's always going to be

01:12:25.820 fringe crackpot

01:12:27.800 followers of any movement, 0.94

01:12:30.140 any Christian movement, any pagan movement.

01:12:33.900 But it's different when it's leaders.

01:12:37.060 Premier

01:12:37.540 leaders.

01:12:39.360 It's different.

01:12:42.640 All right.

01:12:43.360 but again one difference okay so pre-mill the 1970s 80s and 90s guys patriarchal guys

01:12:51.580 homeschool movement guys i think there's some hyper patriarchy there i'll get to some of that

01:12:57.140 and then the patriarchal guys the resurgence of patriarchy the guys today just to recap the

01:13:03.340 differences, pre-mill, post-mill,

01:13:07.800 dispensational, covenantal,

01:13:10.980 Arminian, decisionism, revivalism

01:13:13.660 versus reformed, security of the believer,

01:13:18.560 grace and tota.

01:13:21.460 Independent fundamental Baptist,

01:13:25.340 confessional, historical,

01:13:28.660 reformed Christianity.

01:13:33.340 and baptizing someone in your backyard swimming pool as a dad because at the end of the day

01:13:41.620 dads are the ultimate authority in all the world and so we're baptizing someone in our swimming

01:13:48.160 pool and we're giving you know salting crackers and welter's grape juice on the couch and it's

01:13:56.220 just our family and that's church versus churchmen the biblical patriarchy guys today are churchmen

01:14:03.180 every single one of us is a local pastor in a confessionally reformed church that rightly

01:14:11.580 administers the word and sacrament it can trace our views throughout 2 000 years of church history

01:14:18.220 and then again certainly in the scripture itself i'm just saying these are some big distinctions

01:14:24.660 these are big distinctions all right michael and debbie pearl

01:14:32.320 some people love the pearls

01:14:34.800 I don't know

01:14:38.400 I'm not going to speak to a bunch of stuff

01:14:44.280 because

01:14:44.700 I want to speak to what I know

01:14:47.560 I want to speak to what I know

01:14:50.080 so if you ask

01:14:52.820 Joel were you shaped by the pearls ministry

01:14:54.800 I did not even know

01:14:56.600 who they were

01:14:57.440 not even the names

01:15:00.320 of these individuals until very recently so no i'm not shaped by their ministry whatsoever

01:15:07.200 the little bit that i've seen of it are clips which i understand can be taken out of context

01:15:11.440 but even given the fact that things can be taken out of context i've been taken out of context i

01:15:15.600 know what that's like still the clips themselves are just i don't know it's it's bad it's weird

01:15:25.060 it's just weird so i'll speak to a couple things at least one thing that's kind of going around

01:15:34.300 right now in the twitterverse and you know and it was one of the things in the documentary the

01:15:39.040 shiny happy people doc blanket time all right let's talk about blanket time this is the idea

01:15:45.440 where you put a child and not just a child but you put a baby right six months old that's literally

01:15:51.560 what was said that's a quote six months old the baby you know it's by that time is you know just

01:15:56.360 learned how to sit up you sit the baby on a blanket and it's not just the baby's on a blanket

01:16:02.120 you know and has some toys around them to entertain themselves because mama's doing something and she's

01:16:06.360 trying to go as fast as she can she's she'll come back you know and be with the baby no this is um

01:16:10.680 the baby's on the blanket the baby's being told to be still to be content i mean the baby can wiggle

01:16:15.440 a little bit but the baby needs to be on the blanket the baby needs to you know for the most

01:16:20.040 part be still and we're going to put a toy in front of the baby on the blanket that the baby

01:16:28.020 wants and again we're not talking about you know 16 year old child we're talking about six months

01:16:32.600 seven months eight months and uh you're putting it on the blanket you're telling the baby don't

01:16:37.480 you touch this and it's just just to test the baby train the baby right um and if the baby

01:16:47.060 touches it you slap their hand now my position is not that the slap on the hand is abusive um so my

01:16:53.700 position is not that you know that that this group that this movement was saying you know like you

01:16:58.820 take a crowbar and you hit the baby and like of course that that's slander i don't think that like

01:17:05.120 this was some horrible violent physically violent action the bible affirms spanking i affirm spanking 0.98

01:17:12.020 um what i don't like is is this is what i'll say you know in this instance i'm with doug wilson

01:17:19.560 not with the pearls i'm with doug wilson not with the pearls um doug wilson has talked about this

01:17:26.380 and said it's important that we remember that adam and eve when they're placed in the garden

01:17:30.220 there is a tree and this tree is not just in some far off corner of the garden but the bible says

01:17:35.880 you know this tree that's off limits the day you eat of it you shall surely die is placed in the

01:17:40.080 midst of the garden it's in the middle of the garden it's the tree of the knowledge of the good

01:17:43.540 of uh the knowledge of good and evil and it's in the midst of the garden but here's the deal

01:17:50.360 everything else in the garden is is a yes is the way that Doug says he says there's only one no

01:17:59.480 every other in fact that was the lie of the serpent the serpent comes slithers up to Eve and

01:18:05.620 says, has God said, you know, that you can't eat the fruit of any tree, right? He twists it,

01:18:11.660 tries to make God to be capricious and cruel. God said you can't eat of any tree in the garden.

01:18:17.880 Isn't that spiteful and mean? But that's not what God has said. God said you can't eat of

01:18:26.820 one tree which means you know god defining one no god was consequently defining everything else

01:18:37.040 as a yes so you can you can eat from a million trees god is saying yes to a million trees

01:18:45.380 and saying no to to one just one and so um with the baby blanket thing the baby can't walk

01:18:58.120 you know and if it's a young baby six months seven months which that that is an age six months was

01:19:03.660 cited um then you're talking about a baby that can't even crawl and and so you're not talking

01:19:09.460 about a scenario where the baby has a million options available there's a million toys that

01:19:16.080 the baby can play with but one toy that the baby can't play with no in this scenario there's only

01:19:21.340 one thing within their reach and it's a no see with adam and eve there's there's everything is

01:19:29.380 within their reach and it's a yes except for one in the baby blanket time scenario

01:19:35.400 only one thing is within their reach and it's a no

01:19:39.460 i i think that's bad parenting

01:19:44.760 i think it's bad parenting here's another distinction adam and eve

01:19:51.260 adam and eve are not placed they're not made and placed in the garden

01:19:55.620 as six month old babies so there is one no if you eat of this tree the day you

01:20:02.640 eat of it you shall surely die and god is giving his law word about the one tree that's off limits

01:20:08.700 he's giving this word to adam and adam is not a six-month-old baby adam is not a toddler adam is

01:20:14.700 a grown man and there is a distinction and this parents need to understand this parents within

01:20:21.540 the patriarchal conservative reform camp which i'm a part of proudly you need to understand

01:20:26.160 especially with young children i i believe that there's a place for disciplining young children

01:20:31.280 there is you need to start young but you need to understand there is a distinction between

01:20:36.700 finitude and fallenness finitude and fallenness

01:20:42.440 god knows our frame he knows that we are dust

01:20:48.780 it's not just that god knows our nature in the sense that we're fallen and that we've rebelled

01:20:58.940 against God doesn't just know that we're sinful he knows that we're finite finitude versus

01:21:05.800 fallenness Adam and Eve their fall was was a fall it wasn't mere finitude it wasn't just that they

01:21:15.340 were creatures it's that they chose to sin it really was sin it's not a lack of understanding

01:21:22.220 it's not a disconnect in communication

01:21:25.060 it's not

01:21:27.020 some kind of

01:21:28.060 discrepancy

01:21:32.740 in their rationale and ability

01:21:34.980 it's not about ability

01:21:37.180 they just

01:21:38.860 they willfully chose to sin against God

01:21:40.600 that's what it is

01:21:43.940 that's not necessarily the case with a

01:21:46.900 six month old baby, now that's not to say

01:21:48.540 again, I think discipline starts early

01:21:50.400 I think it does. And I think babies can understand a lot more than we give them credit for.

01:21:55.940 In the case of my children, I'm a father of four, my wife and I, we started discipline,

01:22:02.440 not for everything, but we would say, okay, there's a couple of things

01:22:05.480 that we believe at this stage of life are worthy of discipline. And that stage of life

01:22:11.620 beginning was usually around 10 to 12 months. So right around the one year mark where it's

01:22:17.600 no longer just the baby's crying because they're hungry, but it's no, the baby's crying because

01:22:22.160 they're not getting their way. And you can tell the difference between defiance and finitude.

01:22:28.420 You can tell the difference between hunger and a fit. And about that age, you know, that's when

01:22:34.120 the baby starts rearing and arching its back and screaming, you know, not because they're hungry

01:22:39.600 or not because they're hurting, not because they just need to be comforted, but because you told

01:22:45.380 them no uh you you did not give them what they wanted and you actually had a reason for it you

01:22:51.780 weren't just testing them trying them and setting them up to fail you you know that you were being

01:22:57.560 a good parent and the baby's just sinning so i believe in you know in disciplining children

01:23:04.420 i believe in starting young um another doug wilson ism uh you know he says that uh the vast

01:23:12.300 majority if not all of the spankings that parents give to their children should occur

01:23:17.960 before the you know from from ages zero to five years old and you know my oldest right now is

01:23:26.860 going to be turning six in a few months and i can tell you that um that's what it's been

01:23:31.900 and that's not to say that oh well now you know my my soon-to-be six-year-old is sinless

01:23:36.820 no but it's but but she has she's amazing she's amazing she's obedient she honors her father and

01:23:46.420 mother because we were diligent by god's grace it's not because we're great but by god's grace

01:23:52.420 we had you know some you know we're turned on to some some good curriculum and good books and

01:23:58.320 and you know good mentoring when it comes to parenting young children early on and so we

01:24:04.660 didn't waste time a lot of parents who are grounding their teenagers right so they're they're

01:24:11.400 they're 15 year old 16 year old you're grounded for a month know this know that um and they're

01:24:16.540 and their teenagers are just just a terror just a wreck you know and to the point where even

01:24:23.100 christians it's become this common expression of like well you know kids are great but wait

01:24:27.980 till the teenage years no i reject that no the teenage years can be can be great i know

01:24:34.580 plenty of people i'm not there yet i i admit that but i know plenty of christian parents who have

01:24:39.660 teenagers and and by their own admission they're constantly saying it is such a blessing and joy

01:24:46.780 to have a 14 year old 15 year old 16 year old our children our teenage children are wonderful

01:24:53.240 but these are parents who disciplined when the children were young the parents who have teenagers

01:24:58.500 who are a nightmare are usually the parents who did not discipline right so the parents who and

01:25:03.440 see this is the irony so the parents who say it would be abusive to spank my three-year-old

01:25:07.760 but now you're locking your 13 year old in their room

01:25:12.960 and that's not abusive so i'm going to ground my teenager for a month 0.77

01:25:20.340 but god forbid i i barely slap the hand of my 18 month old

01:25:27.200 and and and that's the i mean it's a tragic irony i mean the bible says for a reason right people

01:25:34.860 say you know spoil the the the child or spare the rod spoil the child that's not a bible verse i

01:25:39.680 understand um i'll tell you what is a bible verse he who spares the rod hates his child so you're

01:25:45.700 right spare the rod spoil the child is not a bible verse but sparing the rod being hatred of the

01:25:52.160 child is a bible verse it is and this is not my definition i'm not trying to this is not a hashtag

01:25:58.920 based moment where i'm trying to just you know provoke according to god's word god's standard

01:26:04.080 um a lot of professing christians they they hate their children gentle parenting i'm going to do

01:26:12.480 gentle parenting you mean hateful parenting do you mean hateful parenting according to god's

01:26:19.020 standard because god tells us what is loving towards children and what is hating children

01:26:26.540 and in that instance these guys from the 70s and 80s and 90s they were right they weren't they're

01:26:31.200 not wrong about everything there were a lot of good christian saints in these movements from what

01:26:36.360 what i can tell who who rightly understood that discipline is loving so long as it's done biblically

01:26:42.700 and it's done well and that's true that's absolutely true but then some of them like

01:26:49.660 the pearls on record in their books in their literature talk about continuing to discipline

01:26:54.880 the child all the way up until they're 18 and and not just discipline but discipline

01:26:59.420 specifically in the vein of spanking physical corporal punishment and i would just i disagree

01:27:09.120 and i don't know anybody again i'm just i'm just letting you know some of the distinctions

01:27:14.360 between these patriarchal guys and the patriarchal guys today this resurgence of biblical patriarchy

01:27:21.760 we are reformed we're not arminian we're confessional we're not independent fundamentalist

01:27:28.100 baptist we are post-male we're not pre-male we're covenantal we're not dispensational

01:27:33.360 and 99% of our spanking happens from 0 to 5 years old

01:27:38.780 and not at 16, 17 and 18 years old

01:27:42.780 and those are some big differences

01:27:47.660 and the patriarchal guys that I know today

01:27:51.080 we don't do blanket tie

01:27:52.140 we don't like that

01:27:55.420 I'm not a fan

01:27:56.940 because we don't see that as what God does

01:28:00.700 that God only makes one available resource for us

01:28:05.980 and then demonizes it.

01:28:09.200 No, God makes a million available resources for us

01:28:13.060 and calls it good and blesses it

01:28:17.040 and holds it out to us for our enjoyment

01:28:20.200 and says that one thing is off limits.

01:28:23.580 And God didn't do that with six-month-olds.

01:28:26.540 He did it with adults.

01:28:28.820 those are radical differences so anyways um those are some of my thoughts

01:28:36.440 uh let me see i might have had one more thing

01:28:39.180 i wrote down notes this time oh you know what the duggars quiverful or you might be familiar

01:28:48.300 with the term uh onanism uh this is something that i had to really think about um because i had

01:28:54.640 some individuals in the church that i pastored in southern california who who hopped on this train

01:29:00.880 and so you know i was working through that and and you know theologically giving it a fair shake

01:29:05.680 you know because everyone's like well you know that's ridiculous well we think a lot of things

01:29:09.860 are ridiculous because we've been steeped in feminism um and so you know looking at you know 0.98

01:29:16.020 all right do christians in the last 15 minutes think this is ridiculous or you know is this the 0.99

01:29:20.740 witness of church history? And what does the Bible, most importantly, what does that say?

01:29:25.720 I think that in general, Christians today, not just people, but even Christians today,

01:29:30.500 despise children. They want to have, you know, 1.5 children. At the end of the day, 0.78

01:29:36.980 they don't really think that children are a blessing and that the man whose quiver is full

01:29:42.340 is exceedingly blessed, right? The children are a heritage from the Lord. Blessed is the man whose

01:29:46.940 quiver is full that a man is blessed if he has many children so i i think that the headline of

01:29:52.460 the story the headline report again not just from the pagans but from evangelical christians

01:29:59.380 in the west today the headline report is uh that they do not view children as a blessing

01:30:06.160 not in such a way that they would see it as an added blessing to have several children

01:30:11.760 and there is there's a legitimate argument to be made for what other blessing all right so if

01:30:19.540 children are a blessing a heritage from the lord and a man is blessed if his quiver is full right

01:30:25.200 not just you know white picket fence and 1.5 children but but a full quiver many children

01:30:30.020 that man is exceedingly blessed if that's the case well there are other things in scripture

01:30:34.420 that are listed as blessings what other blessing in life would we want to mitigate

01:30:39.280 right so money is not the root of all evil or all kinds of evil rather the scripture says that the

01:30:46.240 love of money is a root of all kinds of evil so greed the love of money idolatry of money but

01:30:52.140 money itself is not inherently good or bad money itself if used wisely is actually a blessing

01:30:59.820 it's a resource it's merely representative money is just like god giving you cattle

01:31:05.020 or food or clothes or house or land and those aren't bad things these are things that natural

01:31:12.780 resources that god made he owns the cattle on a thousand hills and if he gives those thousand

01:31:16.860 thousand cattle to someone that he loves that's that's great that's great so christian

01:31:22.220 um are we actively seeking consciously seeking intentionally making certain decisions to say

01:31:29.520 um without you know i i i could make a million dollars a year without without sinning without

01:31:40.160 sinning without neglecting something that lord's called me to and i can do it ethically and all

01:31:44.540 these kinds of things still be with my wife and still be with my children and still be involved

01:31:47.580 in my church and still fear the lord and i can make a million dollars a year or i can make a

01:31:52.620 hundred thousand dollars a year and i have intentionally deliberately opted for making

01:31:56.920 100 000 not a million because i see this as a blessing but i just want to put a cap on that

01:32:02.840 blessing i want to mitigate that blessing i want to harness that blessing you know shrink that

01:32:07.100 blessing you don't want to have too much blessing here right what other blessing is my point what

01:32:13.980 other blessing would we go to such great lengths to shrink and yet the bible says that children

01:32:23.960 are a premier blessing of the Lord and again I'm not talking about the pagans I'm not talking about

01:32:30.240 the progressives I'm talking about evangelical Christians our Bible says Psalm 127 children

01:32:35.840 are a heritage from the Lord a blessing from the Lord and a man whose quiver is full he is exceedingly

01:32:40.700 blessed and we go to great lengths to make sure that we mitigate that blessing from the Lord

01:32:48.380 so that's that's the headline right see one of the problems with all this kind of stuff is

01:32:54.800 the footnote becomes a headline the headline becomes the footnote all right so the headline

01:33:00.740 right now is feminism the headline in our culture today and the headline in the church today is

01:33:06.820 feminism not abusive patriarchy let's get that straight and the headline in the church not just

01:33:11.980 the world but the church today is despising children not having too many children and that's

01:33:19.540 the whole problem just for the record that's the whole problem with the rise and fall of mars hill

01:33:23.280 and shiny happy people that's my biggest problem with these things right so i've spent all this

01:33:29.380 time distinguishing saying okay you the patriarchal guys today there are some radical differences

01:33:34.140 significant doctrinal differences and behavioral differences character differences parenting

01:33:40.100 differences from these patriarchal guys and myself and other you know today's patriarchal guys

01:33:47.620 but having established that that there are distinctions and the distinctions matter

01:33:54.020 having established that let me tell you what i hate what i hate about the rise and fall of mars

01:34:00.480 hill what i hate about shiny happy people what i hate is that they lie and and they may not lie

01:34:09.560 with each little detail. The lie is not with the individual trees, the individual statements,

01:34:17.440 this statement being made. The lie is the forest. Not an individual tree, but the whole forest. The

01:34:23.340 lie is just the headline of the story. Because the headline of the story is, you know, there's

01:34:30.120 an epidemic of harsh, quarrelsome pastors in the church who are being divisive. No, there's an

01:34:39.480 epidemic of limp-wristed effeminate cowardly pastors in the church you know that that's the 1.00

01:34:47.400 epidemic there's an epidemic of abusive patriarchal no there's an epidemic of feminist 1.00

01:34:53.820 you know that's the epidemic 0.90

01:34:57.020 and as it pertains to men there's an epidemic of apathy not not men being abusive

01:35:06.120 but men in their god-ordained role of headship being apathetic abdicating their authority

01:35:15.760 not abusing that authority but abdicating that authority men can sin in both directions

01:35:22.840 they can sin as head of their wife and head of their children they can sin by abuse

01:35:28.080 and they can sin by abdicating

01:35:30.280 we just got to stand back for a second and look at the forest not just one isolated tree look at

01:35:37.840 the forest and just be honest in america in the united states of america in 2023 the year of our

01:35:45.240 lord what's the big failure what's the headline of the story right now with men is it that men

01:35:55.000 are just too masculine too domineering too aggressive right abusive in their authority

01:36:05.160 and leadership is that the headline sure we can there there are always some but is that the 0.99

01:36:11.920 headline or is the headline that men are cowardly weak abdicating responsibility

01:36:18.480 not living in their authority whatsoever 0.98

01:36:22.080 and effeminate not overly masculine but effeminate not masculine enough and that's my big problem

01:36:32.540 that was my problem with you know the christianity today you know joke of a podcast

01:36:41.840 with mars hill and that's my problem with the happy you know shiny happy people

01:36:47.220 thing right now on amazon prime um

01:36:51.160 you make the footnote the headline it's gaslighting it's just it's which shouldn't

01:36:59.520 shock us it's the same play from the political left it's the same thing that democrats do

01:37:04.860 right it's the same kind of documentary that jen saki would make right which shouldn't be

01:37:12.460 shocking at all because christianity today is filled with a bunch of democrats

01:37:16.140 who vote for abortion pro-abortion candidates all the way to birth

01:37:22.580 and the shiny happy people are a bunch of god-hating democrats of course they are

01:37:31.460 and the people who are being interviewed

01:37:34.200 have purple and pink hair

01:37:35.800 so yeah

01:37:41.600 I think that we need to be discerning

01:37:44.000 as Christians and we need to know

01:37:46.280 when we're being

01:37:47.300 gaslighted we need to have

01:37:50.060 enough discernment to say I know this play

01:37:51.660 I know this play

01:37:54.340 this is just

01:37:56.340 your typical progressive

01:37:57.340 God hating 1.00

01:37:59.540 all christians are bad all men are bad male headship across the board is bad patriarchy 1.00

01:38:06.720 across the board is bad homeschooling is cultish parenting is bad that's what it is that's what 0.99

01:38:14.620 this documentary is trying to accomplish that's the point that's the goal and it'll prove to be

01:38:20.700 successful with a lot of people i think as bible believing jesus loving family loving church loving

01:38:28.640 Christians. We need to be able to say, look, we need to be able to say exactly what I said in

01:38:34.200 this podcast. Yeah, I disagree with this. I disagree with that. And this is a distinction.

01:38:40.500 That's a distinction. That's a distinction. That's a distinction. There are real objective

01:38:44.480 theological distinctions and they matter. And yet two things can be simultaneously true.

01:38:51.900 I am not the pearls

01:38:54.260 I am not Bill Gotham

01:38:56.580 I am not the Duggars

01:38:58.420 but I also know 0.99

01:39:00.620 that Amazon hates Jesus

01:39:02.760 and that they're not trying

01:39:07.300 to simply carefully

01:39:08.920 in a fair good faith way

01:39:10.780 draw out real abuses

01:39:12.060 from some individuals

01:39:13.500 while acknowledging

01:39:14.660 that Christianity as a whole

01:39:16.040 is a positive

01:39:16.840 a net positive influence

01:39:19.200 in the world today

01:39:19.960 no

01:39:20.580 they're not trying to take out Bill Gotham they're trying to take out you they're trying to take out

01:39:28.000 me and some will say yeah they want to take out you Joel that's because you're patriarchal no no

01:39:32.980 no you're complementarian with your one million nuances yeah they hate you too right that's what's

01:39:40.740 so funny you know I think of like with G3 and the Christian nationalism thing which you know

01:39:44.920 by God's grace we're having some conversations offline and I feel hopeful we'll see what happens

01:39:50.160 but all that being said good brothers good brothers but you know one of the things that

01:39:54.160 i've said is that josh bice you know if if the left is completely take over the neo-marxist

01:40:00.420 take over and the you know and we all get shipped off to the gulag the irony is that josh bice will

01:40:06.020 have spent you know all the time that he spent to nuance and to be clear that i am not a christian

01:40:10.200 nationalist and yet me and him will be sharing a cell in the gulag together that the pagans don't

01:40:16.100 care the pagans aren't looking at g3 and saying oh wow what a charitable nuance really appreciate

01:40:21.540 that that really makes a difference there no they're looking at me who's just saying yeah

01:40:25.640 i'm just going to wear the label because because you're going to call me a christian nationalist

01:40:28.540 no matter what i do if you're a bible believing christian guess what you're a christian nationalist

01:40:33.640 yeah sure you can to blue in the face you can you know not call yourself that but you're going to

01:40:40.500 be called that by everybody else. And so all that being said, I wanted to draw out the real

01:40:47.040 theological distinction because I think we can do patriarchy better. I think we can do it more

01:40:51.140 biblically. And I think there actually are some pitfalls and failures. And so I know,

01:40:56.680 and it does matter, there's a difference between me and Bill Gothard. There's a difference between

01:40:59.920 me and Michael Perl. There is a difference between someone who's reformed and someone who's

01:41:04.660 arminian there's a difference between boomer con theology that's existed for 15 minutes versus

01:41:11.000 robust historical confessional christianity and that's the resurgence it's coming from that

01:41:18.800 and it matters and it makes a difference however in terms of the enemy in terms of their perspective

01:41:26.560 there's no difference at all

01:41:30.060 Bill Gothard

01:41:31.640 Doug Wilson

01:41:33.160 same thing

01:41:34.380 Michael Pearl

01:41:37.520 Michael Foster

01:41:39.140 same thing

01:41:40.160 right

01:41:42.960 Jim Bob Duggar

01:41:45.540 Joel Webin

01:41:47.460 same thing

01:41:48.840 and that's the real enemy that we're facing

01:41:52.200 and for them

01:41:53.440 the doctoral distinctives

01:41:56.360 that are real and objective and matter

01:41:58.300 don't matter.

01:41:59.640 Not to them.

01:42:02.220 And that's why we need to be able to

01:42:03.980 watch a documentary like this, or don't.

01:42:06.240 Feel free not to.

01:42:07.440 But if you must, if you do,

01:42:10.060 we need to be able to watch a documentary like this.

01:42:12.440 We need to be able to see the real failures,

01:42:15.640 learn from them,

01:42:17.100 do better,

01:42:18.600 hold to better doctrine,

01:42:20.480 more biblical doctrine,

01:42:22.440 but also at the end of the day

01:42:24.580 realize that the real play

01:42:26.180 the forest not just individual trees but the forest is that the god haters hate all of us 0.61

01:42:33.680 we're all christian nationalists to them we're all abusive patriarchal guys to them

01:42:39.600 and if we think that for them for the enemy that our articulation of theological distinctions is

01:42:49.460 going to matter we're just we're naive we're kidding ourselves so we we better get used to

01:42:56.800 being hated we better get used to being hated and we better have a plan and we better have some grit

01:43:05.200 some gravitas a spine some courage but we're not going to make it we're just not going to make it

01:43:14.220 All right. One last time. Important announcement. Blueprints for Christendom 2.0. This is our

01:43:22.620 spring conference, March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. That's a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday of next year,

01:43:27.920 2024. We've got Douglas Wilson, Brian Sauve, Dr. Joe Boot, myself, and the newest addition that

01:43:34.580 we're announcing today is that Michael Foster from It's Good to Be a Man has joined our lineup.

01:43:39.640 He's going to be talking about biblical patriarchy. And at one point during the conference,

01:43:43.060 it's actually going to be on Friday, that's March 1st, we're going to have a 90-minute panel

01:43:47.500 with myself and Michael Foster and Doug Wilson and also Eric Kahn from Hard Man Podcast. The

01:43:54.580 four of us, Eric, Michael, Doug, and myself, are going to do a 90-minute panel all about biblical

01:43:59.700 patriarchy. And it's going to just be a further fleshing out discussion of some of the things

01:44:05.580 that I've talked about in today's episode. You're not going to want to miss this conference, so go

01:44:10.040 and register as soon as possible.

01:44:12.800 You can go to rightresponseconference.com.

01:44:15.580 Again, that's rightresponseconference.com

01:44:18.520 to register today.

01:44:20.020 Thanks for tuning in and God bless.

01:44:38.120 Can I be frank with you for just a second?

01:44:40.040 right here at the end. Look, some of you guys, you're financially supporting this ministry,

01:44:44.780 and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you,

01:44:51.820 you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest.

01:44:58.860 I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political 0.94

01:45:06.360 elites lost their minds over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we

01:45:14.160 simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession. We are

01:45:20.400 living in a recession right now regardless. Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs

01:45:27.660 at the grocery store. You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should

01:45:34.180 you, but you could still help us tremendously. I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so,

01:45:41.500 take one minute of your time. Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform,

01:45:48.180 iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be. This is the way the system works. We want to be

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The NXR Podcast - June 08, 2023

BONUS EPISODE - “Shiny Happy People” ｜ Duggars, Pearls, & Bill Gothard Vs. Biblical Patriarchy

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