00:02:40.360and joel i just i wanted to uh to start with you here uh when we were uh when we were corresponding
00:02:51.260we were touching base on on setting up to have you on the show we were looking looking ahead
00:02:57.120there were several several of the commandments that we could have chosen from and you got back
00:03:02.460to me and said i'd like to do the fifth commandment uh maybe we'll just start with what uh what is it
00:03:09.620that, that drew you to, uh, to this particular one? Great question. Yeah. Part of what drew me
00:03:16.660to it is I think my own personal repentance in this area. Um, I, you know, I, I did my undergrad
00:03:24.020in Dallas, Texas. I was born and raised in Bay city, Texas. It's a small town on the Gulf coast
00:03:29.400in between Galveston and Corpus Christi, uh, went off to school. And when I finished school,
00:03:35.680I just had this burning desire, woe am I if I don't plant a church, which really, to be completely honest, was I had a strong desire to preach, and I do believe that that came from the Lord, and there's a desire, I had that noble desire to be an elder, but I don't think that I was ready, and I think that I at least subconsciously knew that.
00:03:59.820But there was this really nifty category that was becoming increasingly popular at the time.
00:04:06.060This is around 2007, 8, 9, called church planting.
00:04:11.700And with church planting, you could be a pastor before you were qualified.
00:04:16.500And so, you know, so I opted towards, you know, knowing that I was a 23-year-old single man and that it was highly unlikely that I was going to get a letter in the mail of, you know, some congregation calling me to be their senior pastor.
00:04:29.820So I thought, well, I'll start one. And again, I think by the grace of God, there were a lot of noble desires and right instincts. There was plenty of, by the grace of God, again, purity, but there were also plenty of sinful desires and at bare minimum, at least immature and incomplete and foolish ambitions.
00:04:53.660And so I went off to plant a church and it was kind of this rite of passage.
00:04:57.780I thought, you know, that, um, you know, if, if you're, if you're going to do something
00:05:01.840significant for the Lord, it needs to be ministry, right?
00:05:04.780I wouldn't have known these things at the time, but like two fish swimming, um, in the
00:05:09.200ocean passing by each other and one saying, uh, the water sure is nice today.
00:05:17.140I was pre-millennial dispensational, um, these things by default.
00:05:21.460And so for me, I did not have a proper understanding of the kingdom of God expressed beyond simply the four walls of the church institute as Dr. Boot has so well expressed.
00:05:34.400So I thought if I'm going to advance the kingdom of God, it has to be within the ecclesiastical sphere.
00:05:44.620And if I want to do something significant, like being a pastor, I could be even more significant by being a church planter, not just pastoring the church, but starting one.
00:05:53.200And if I want to be even greater, then I could start a church in a perhaps a more difficult context.
00:06:00.360And so I moved away, to answer your question, from my mother and father.
00:06:04.860And I went to California and not saying that a child can't geographically, you know, a grown adult child move away from their parents.
00:06:11.760But I think I had not outspokenly, but at least a subtle aversion and despising Texas and flyover America.
00:06:23.920I bought into some of the rhetoric of the sophisticated cool kids table within evangelicalism and church planting at the time that inner city ministry is all the rage and rural areas is really kind of a subtle compromise.
00:06:41.140And and so I just I bought into all of that. And as I got older, by the end of 2020, it really before COVID hit and those kinds of things, I was already beginning to think eventually I should move back to Texas.
00:09:11.160It's a common designation or observation that there are, in the Ten Commandments, two tables.
00:09:18.660There's a distinction between commandments as far as relationship to God, which is the first four,
00:09:24.180and then the latter six are commandments concerning relationships between people.
00:09:31.520and I can't help but observe that there is a parallel between the fifth commandment and the
00:09:39.300first commandment or the first commandments of either table insofar as there are certain persons
00:09:47.660who are owed specific treatment specific responses and relations and I guess the
00:09:56.720The question in all of that is just, can you comment further on that, on why that might be, of course, it's deliberate in Scripture, nothing is accidental or superfluous, but what accounts for that structure and what might be some significance or implication of it?
00:10:15.560that's a great question um within the second table of the law so beginning with commandment
00:10:21.640number five um it's also worth noting that that that's the only commandment out of the six the
00:10:27.300latter six of the ten commandments that's stated in the positive sense right starting with commandment
00:10:32.160six through ten um you have prohibitions thou shall not murder thou shall not commit adultery
00:10:39.060thou shall not steal thou shall not bear false witness thou shall not covet but the fifth
00:10:43.760commandment is the first of the second table of law in relation to our love for neighbor
00:10:48.380it's also the only commandment towards neighbors stated in the positive sense not just something
00:10:55.540that you should avoid but something that you should actively commit yourself to doing not
00:11:01.100just thou shall not dishonor or thou shall not blaspheme but profane thy father and mother but
00:11:09.460thou thou shalt honor my father and mother so that's unique um and it's also the first commandment
00:11:15.080which i know we'll get to you know uh later on in this episode with a promise and so it's unique
00:11:19.580and in all those senses it's the first of the second table of the law it's the only in the
00:11:23.220second table of the law stated in the positive sense and it's the only one that's explicitly
00:11:27.980i believe there's a promise for all obedience but it's where the promise is explicitly stated and
00:11:33.920not only a heavenly promise and eternal promise,
00:11:37.480but a temporal and earthly promise as well.
00:13:42.880And we start with what's most near and most dear.
00:13:46.740There's an order of priorities, that so much of sin is a misordered affections, that I love something more than I should or something less than I should.
00:13:55.460So much of anger is at least sinful anger is is a relationship with, you know, that I, you know, I love myself more than others.
00:14:04.660And so I'm more deeply offended than I should be.
00:14:07.240And so beginning with this this order, this hierarchy of loves, we're called to love God, the heavenly father first.
00:14:13.520but then as it relates to loving our neighbor we have 8.2 billion neighbors and what i've noticed
00:14:19.860especially with younger people millennials and gen z um they they love love in theory um but
00:14:28.480but they seem to really struggle in practice so they love the children in uganda they love ukraine
00:14:33.800they love this they love that um but they can't share the refrigerator with their college roommate
00:14:41.520um you know so they love everyone until they meet someone that ironically the only people they love
00:14:47.720eight billion people they really only don't love 30 but the 30 that they don't love are the only
00:14:52.44030 people that they've ever had close relationship with which should you know you would think that
00:14:56.980they would naturally conclude that actually they're not good at love and that this theoretical
00:15:01.540love for all these strangers out there um actually isn't love at all because whenever it's put to a
00:15:06.200test. It's quickly proven to be false. And so all that being said, it's such a close relationship.
00:15:13.380Honor thy father and mother. These are the first people that you come to know. You're in their home.
00:15:18.260You're at their table. You're nursing from your mother's breast. You're under your father's
00:15:22.880tutelage. And if you can't love the first people that you literally meet in life, the two first
00:15:29.660people that you meet in your life, when your eyes open and you breathe your first breath and come
00:15:34.200into the world, then it's just, it's fallacious and absurd to think that you would be able to
00:15:39.560love any other neighbor if you can't love the first two neighbors that you meet.
00:15:46.640I appreciate that. Thank you. I noticed the same thing, that this is the first and only
00:15:55.260of the positive commandments in the second table. And it's also, in some ways, it's the most
00:16:02.940demanding whereas the others are universal prohibitions you know do not do not murder
00:16:08.640full stop do not murder anybody right that's fairly easy to do we're all just sitting here
00:16:15.980not murdering but we have to uh there's some there's a there's something that is enjoined
00:16:25.340to us something that is required of us in terms of demonstrating and showing that that honor that's
00:16:32.380that we're called on to show. Joe, do you have any follow-up on that question?
00:16:40.700Yeah, that was a helpful and a comprehensive answer. What occurred to me while Joel was
00:16:47.060speaking is that in some respects, this commandment, the fifth commandment,
00:16:53.080feels like a transitional commandment that has a foot on both tables because your parents
00:17:02.080your father and your mother are the source of your life in the human sense so we we're required
00:17:10.220to honor god as the creator as and worship him as creator and king and of course in christ as
00:17:17.580redeemer as well but there is a sense in which you know the the image bearing nature of of human
00:17:25.580beings and especially male and female made in the image of god the establishment of the family
00:17:30.840we do have the the the holy family father son and holy spirit and the so god's covenantal
00:17:40.500revelation of himself is in familial terms and so when we honor our parents we are actually
00:17:46.780honoring god that's how um significant this is then in a certain respect as joel was saying you
00:17:54.280know when our children are young um especially we represent god to them we represent the fatherhood
00:18:04.540of god to them uh we we represent the nurturing aspects of god the mother the mothering character
00:18:12.900of god also as jesus said as a hen gathers her chicks beneath its wings so there is because
00:18:19.680male and female are made in the image of God. So parents are imaging God to their children and
00:18:26.200in the temporal sense are the source of our life. And so God regards the dishonoring of parents
00:18:34.980extremely seriously and as very much an offense against God. That's why there's this promise of
00:18:43.300life, there's such a direct blessing and cursing attached to it. And Jesus in Mark 7, and perhaps
00:18:51.400we'll come to this later, takes it so seriously that he really rebukes the Pharisees for saying,
00:19:02.100well, I brought these gifts to God, therefore I don't have any obligation towards honoring my
00:19:06.780parents he says you you make void the law of god by your tradition and he talks about um uh of course
00:19:14.400the cursing of of parents you know there's a there's a the the older covenant takes so seriously
00:19:20.320the dishonoring of parents the abuse of parents that it actually carried the death penalty
00:19:25.120so there is a there's a great seriousness attached to this and you when you read this
00:19:31.060fifth commandment you feel like there is a foot on either uh table of the of the law here that's
00:19:38.120this transitional um uh command because we really do as parents in the early lives of our children
00:19:47.100really represent god uh to them so there's of course an obligation on parents there too
00:19:52.240focus of this command is the obligation of of children uh towards their towards their parents
00:19:58.740But it's certainly one of the reasons why Karl Marx understood, he says, the secret to the holy family is the earthly family.
00:20:06.900And to destroy the former, you must destroy the latter in theory and in practice.
00:20:13.500So he was convinced, Marx and Engels were convinced, if you destroy the earthly family, you can get rid of God.
00:20:19.280So if we can get rid of honoring parents in our society, we create an atheistic, irreligious, blasphemous society.
00:20:26.920right with one thing that i want to add with what joe mentioned in terms of
00:20:33.400a breach of the fifth commandment carrying with it the penalty of capital punishment
00:20:38.440that's another would i i would cite as another biblical example to support the point that
00:20:44.280although obedience full practical in every regard obedience children obey your parents in everything
00:20:52.300for this is pleasing to the Lord, Colossians 3.20.
00:20:55.140Although full obedience is, I believe, a temporary command
00:20:58.460for young children under their father's roof.
00:21:01.620The commandment, the fifth commandment to honor thy father and mother,
00:21:04.860I really do see as being a lifelong commandment
00:21:07.360that the grown child who has now established his own household
00:21:10.920is still called to honor his father and mother.
00:21:13.440And one of the proof texts for that would be what Joe mentioned
00:21:17.140in terms of dishonoring the father and mother,
00:21:20.140carrying with it the penalty of capital punishment,
00:21:22.300Because what's mentioned in that particular text is, this is not, the descriptive terms is not, you know, indicative of a five-year-old child dishonoring his parents with a temper tantrum.
00:24:04.180but there's also a modification of that commandment.
00:24:08.540And Joe, I know that you've spoken about this several times
00:24:12.900and written about it in other contexts,
00:24:14.900So maybe I'll get you to lead off here. How that commandment is modified from the first instance to its application here in the New Testament?
00:24:28.920well first there in ephesians paul as joel says there um rightly there is a um there's a there's
00:24:38.820a more detailed description of what is in mind for children and the the obligation of of children
00:24:46.960to honor their parents and the reason given for that is not um simply some sociological reason
00:24:55.280or some cultural reason, but because God says for this is right. This is right. It is what God
00:25:03.300requires. It's what God commands that children are obedient to their parents. And we're living
00:25:08.880in an age of radical rebellion against parents, of radical disobedience. And of course, that is
00:25:17.860encouraged by a secularizing and re-paganizing western culture um that uh that parents are set
00:25:25.840aside they're an object of ridicule you only have to look at um many of the sitcoms that are so
00:25:32.020popular today and the way the family is portrayed to see in particular um fathers are the object of
00:25:39.280ridicule um and uh and and children you know the the rebel teenager i mean don't forget that
00:25:46.220even terms like teenager were invented by sociologists in the 20th century to encourage
00:25:53.480and, you know, parents are led to expect. It's almost a norm now that you are led to expect
00:25:59.900that your teenagers will be defiant and rebellious. And this will be that this is normal.
00:26:07.040This is even good. And the state and its education system loves to encourage that and to drive a
00:26:13.680wedge between parents and children. But Paul there, first of all, enjoins obedience upon
00:26:18.860children. And I think Joel is right in saying that that's talking about the younger child
00:26:25.160that is living under their parents' roof, that has not reached an age of independence and
00:26:33.860responsibility. That's where obedience is required. But the other change there that we don't see in
00:26:41.240exodus 20 and this is a more subtle modification is the and it's very interesting that it's it's
00:26:46.880still there and this isn't a special uh especially of note for the more two kingdoms type people uh
00:26:53.700and the tendency that we have to think of the commandments purely in negative terms that they
00:26:59.880are just a few prohibitions that uh that god things that god doesn't want us to do now there's
00:27:05.720always a positive connotation to all of the commands and this one is stated in crystal clear
00:27:10.500terms that it may go well with you and you live long in the earth of course in exodus 20 um the
00:27:17.980commandment is that you may live long in the land because the the immediate positivization here is to
00:27:23.800the hebrews who are in canaan that they would live long in that land but paul now doesn't
00:27:30.680dispense with the promise of long life and essentially prosperity uh as the as the general
00:27:39.400direction of providence with regards to obedience and don't forget that there are always there will
00:27:46.220always be exceptions to a general pattern but this is what scripture indicates here's the general
00:27:51.720pattern you honor your father and mother it will go well with you and you will live long in the
00:27:58.100earth so paul continues uh the application of the promise of of blessing and long life but he doesn't
00:28:06.620restricted to a strip of land in palestine that the land expands it just like the the fullness
00:28:13.560of the gospel is expanded to the whole earth so the promise is that if we honor our parents
00:28:19.000um the we can expect our gen the general experience of human beings will be that they will live long
00:28:26.360in the earth uh that god will bless them um and one of the things he'll bless them with is
00:28:32.520longevity um for for an honoring of parents and it's only a radical secularization a humanism
00:28:39.560that's crept into the church that we overlook this command and um see paul's important covenantal
00:28:46.140modification of it it goes beyond the strip of land in palestine now that we may live long in
00:28:51.300the earth yeah thanks joe joel do you have uh anything to uh to add to that to that comment
00:29:03.500yeah i completely agree and i've just encouraged when i see um you know i've i've preached on uh
00:29:11.940psalm 127 and it talks about children are a heritage from the lord a blessing from the lord
00:29:18.960inheritance from the lord uh blessed is the man whose quiver is full um and you know that that
00:29:25.220they uh the father would not be put to shame that his sons would be with him in the city gates
00:29:30.300and there's so so much that comes out of that but i remember using ephesians chapter 6 as a subtext
00:29:36.340as i was preaching three weeks on a five verse psalm psalm 127 it's a very short psalm um but
00:29:44.360I was talking about, you know, the blessing of having children, having many children and
00:29:48.720having children in your youth, that it's not just that they replace their father in the
00:29:53.460city gates, but they're with him, meaning that when the children come of age, particularly
00:29:58.600his sons, and they're of ruling age, fighting age, that the father is not been sent off
00:30:08.100to pasture, so to speak, that he's not retired.
00:30:10.860he's still in the fray and now he just has his sons with him and it's almost like this imagery
00:30:16.420of the father sitting back and uh and looking to his sons with you know a twinkle in the eye
00:30:21.860maybe a wink or a nod and saying take care of my light work right that the city gates were the place
00:30:27.440of uh prestige and power and um where the elders would sit and render judgments and decisions um
00:30:34.060it's also um an entrance to the city and a defense for the city so if there's any attack
00:30:39.700The gates would be the first point of entry and the first place of defense.
00:30:44.700And so it's as though the enemies of the father are coming
00:30:49.680and he no longer is really even required to make his own defense.
00:30:56.260He's so trust in his sons who are well-shaped and formed by this point,
00:31:01.560chip off the old block, so to speak, that he doesn't even have to get up.
00:31:07.000his sons can take care of his handiwork. And so all that being said, and that's not just for the
00:31:12.920record, meaning that, you know, that we benefit by having many children automatically. Doug Wilson,
00:31:19.080I think, is fond of saying that Samuel would not have benefited by having five sons who took bribes
00:31:25.000rather than two. So we want to have quality children and not just quantity children. But
00:31:30.640I say all that to say that as I was preaching through that and looking at Ephesians 6 in
00:31:34.720relation to exodus 20 um i just again you know continually in my congregation my my local pastoral
00:31:42.580ministry i'm continually pushing back against um uh this you know pietism and continually pushing
00:31:48.780back against antinomianism i'm continually pushing back against the notion that um that that it's
00:31:55.320only the gospel um and and that it's only uh eternal promises and eternal inheritance and
00:32:02.680And so I said that if we look in the New Testament, we see the Apostle Paul utilizing the Fifth Commandment from the Decalogue, and he not only restates the commandment, but he also restates the promise.
00:32:14.060He assumes that the promise is just as good now under the New Covenant, that the promise is just as good as it was for Israel back then, and that the commandment is just as sound and just as applicable as it was back then.
00:32:31.780And I can hardly even imagine, I feel like most of our big Eva types today, if they were preaching Ephesians chapter six, verses one through four, I can't imagine how long that sermon would need to be in order for them to present the sufficient caveats and disclaimers, hedging their bets and protecting against any kind that might be construed as a works-based theology.
00:32:57.780um you know that what now they might be accused of being theonomist joel but worse still right
00:33:03.460exactly exactly so they you know but they would oh well you know now there is a promise but not
00:33:09.140really and this promise is really if there's any promise at all it's a it's certainly not a guarantee
00:33:15.880and it's a it's a spiritual promise an eternal promise land here doesn't mean land um you know
00:33:22.220and they would have to do a similar thing with the sermon on the mountain the beatitudes where
00:33:25.460jesus says that the meek will inherit the earth um there are there are multiple places in the
00:33:30.640new testament it's not just an old testament old covenant notion of taking over the land
00:33:36.220and people you know people often will cite you know perhaps you know um israel in exile for 70
00:33:43.820years in babylon you know and seek the welfare of the city right jeremiah 27 seek the welfare of
00:33:49.000the city for if the city prospers you will prosper also and so we're called to live like
00:33:53.660mordecai um we're called to live like um you know as as as fugitives um who are being winsome
00:34:02.300and careful and shrewd um to benefit you know babylon benefit the enemies of god benefit pagans
00:34:10.020those who have taken us captive um knowing that you know if they benefit their hearts won't
00:34:14.780necessarily turn an allegiance towards God, but if they materially benefit, then we'll get some of
00:34:19.400the trickle-down economics that come with that. But what about the book of Joshua? Like, what if
00:34:26.820the more accurate analogy, correlation for New Testament Christians living in the land,
00:34:34.860the physical, literal land that we live in today, this earth, this dirt, what if we're called to
00:34:39.800live like the people of Israel in the time of Joshua? What if we're not called to live as
00:34:45.960fugitives in the land, but what if we're called to live in such a way that we believe that our
00:34:51.500inheritance is that we overcome and take over the land? That we're not just in exile, we're not just
00:34:58.480in captivity, but we're actually conquering the land. And certainly we do this in a very shrewd
00:35:05.220fashion and in a gracious fashion and a loving fashion, but I do believe that that is the mandate
00:35:10.760of the New Testament Christian, and I believe that one of the secrets to accomplishing this
00:35:15.920is given to us in Ephesians chapter 6 in relation to Exodus chapter 20 and the fifth commandment.
00:35:21.160One of the ways that we inherit the land and live a prosperous life in the land, one of the principles
00:35:27.160is by honoring our father and mother. David, I think of David and his view of the law of God
00:35:32.900in Psalm 119 and multiple other places. But David doesn't just begrudgingly submit to God's law,
00:35:39.860but he delights in God's law. And he sees it not only as that which is morally right,
00:35:44.680but he sees thy law is good, holy, and right. It's the morally right thing, but it's also,
00:35:52.400and that's what we see in Ephesians chapter 6, children obey your parents and the Lord for it
00:35:55.980is right. But immediately on the heels of that, it's not only morally right in the sight of God,
00:36:02.320but it is practically and tangibly productive and beneficial.
00:36:07.760The right thing is also the good thing.
00:36:10.520And those two sentiments are never opposed.
00:36:13.100That which is right in the sight of God, morally right by God's eternal and immutable standard,
00:36:18.540is also that which produces good for the individual and for all their neighbors.
00:36:23.680One of the ways that we can love our neighbors, our first neighbors being our parents,
00:36:27.780but then love neighbors beyond that familial circle is by honoring our father and mother
00:36:34.900and raising and training our children to do the same.
00:36:38.560Cultures that honor their father and mother are more prosperous cultures.
00:38:34.440But I think if there's any movement at all,
00:38:36.700any transition from Exodus 20 to Ephesians 6,
00:38:39.400I think the only transition is not from earth to heaven, but from one geographic concentrated place on earth, namely the land of Canaan, to the whole earth.
00:38:50.200Now, the meek shall inherit the whole thing.
00:38:52.900All of it belongs to the Christian and our children.
00:39:02.260Joel, we started this episode with a bit of a memoir from you about where you had needed to repent of imbibing a lot of modern ideas as relates to this commandment.
00:39:21.160can we can we move or take a cue from that now and just without presuming to bind anybody's
00:39:28.460conscience where would you say and I'll throw it open to both of you in turn but where would you
00:39:34.140say are some areas where we have in the in the modern west we have failed to honor our fathers
00:39:42.600and mothers what what do we uh culturally need to be repenting of in this regard the the first
00:39:51.400thing that i think of and i think joe will have even better insights on this particular point but
00:39:56.220the first thing that i think of that i'd be remiss as i've been praying about coming on this episode
00:40:00.720and what the lord would have for me to share the one thing that i haven't gotten to yet that i just
00:40:04.600i feel like i it would be a um a large failure if i missed it so i'm just gonna get it in now
00:40:10.400because I think it generally deals with your question,
00:40:13.120and I think Joe can answer more specifically.
00:40:36.640And one of the things that I hear again and again and again
00:40:39.020And as I hear it expressed from Christians, well-meaning Christians, and Christians who I think genuinely desire to honor their father and mother, they just express how difficult it is.
00:40:50.280And particularly, the most common conversation that's had is it's really hard to honor my father and mother, Joel, because they have bad theology or they're lukewarm.
00:41:09.020in their convictions and their faith um or or you know they're the typical boomer at least in
00:41:15.940america i can't speak for for you guys but uh that drive around with a bumper sticker that says i'm
00:41:21.720spending my children's inheritance which is a wicked a wicked thing um and i do think that
00:41:26.780there's a sense in which millennials in particular feel um as though their father and mother just
00:41:32.660failed them um that you know i mean the guy who started hobby lobby you know is is going to be
00:41:39.360giving all of it you know to charities um is something that was recently uh published a piece
00:41:44.500of news and instead of keeping the business and allowing it to pass down within his family to his
00:41:50.200children uh jackie chan and i'm sure there's some strategic tax avoiding you know strategies uh
00:41:56.300employed in this but you know recently announced that he's going to be giving all of his money to
00:42:01.160charity, you know, and a trust, you know, wrapping it up in some charity trust instead of giving it
00:42:07.160as an inheritance. And so I think there's this notion of that, at least for Christians,
00:42:12.960I think in the West and particularly America, that boomers, they did a lot. They worked a lot
00:42:20.040of hours. They clocked in a lot in the workplace. They made relatively a lot of money. Economically
00:42:27.200speaking if you look at the last 200 years of history i mean it was just um that generation
00:42:32.360made a ton of money disproportionately um with virtually every other generation in modern
00:42:38.780history in the west um at least in america uh many of them are reluctant to pass the baton as it were
00:42:45.880to to their children's generation and creating space for them and opportunities um gen x feels
00:42:52.800completely like they were just the forgotten generation, skipped over. There's not always
00:42:58.520this, you know, inheritance being given. They were counseled by their parents, you know, my generation
00:43:04.240to go to college. And then, and then, you know, and I don't think that our parents, I don't think
00:43:08.720it was malicious, but many people in my generation went to college and now they have 60, 80, a hundred
00:43:14.460thousand dollars of school debt and are no more positioned to actually be employable than had
00:43:20.380they not gone to college you know and so there's a lot of pent-up frustration i think um now the
00:43:26.620reality is i'm i'm suspicious i've given multiple practical examples to say why it's particularly
00:43:32.260hard for my generation to honor their father and mother but uh i think of you know peter in one of
00:43:39.040his epistles it says speaks of sin that is common to man and i think that if i could if i could speak
00:43:44.660to the saints of past generations in heaven they would they would probably be able to cite you know
00:43:49.14015 examples of why it was their generation it was the hardest to honor their father and mother and
00:43:54.620this other generation was the hardest and the reality is I think that yeah boomers I think
00:43:59.600boomers failed in some unique ways but every generation failed in some unique ways boomers
00:44:05.060didn't just they weren't created in a vacuum everybody is the product of their parents and
00:44:09.400their parents and their parents in a particular context the greatest generation had some
00:44:13.520particular failures and beyond that beyond that beyond that and so I think what I've come to
00:44:18.540realize is that it's just hard to honor your father and mother, period, no matter what generation
00:44:23.540you're in. And you can try to make a particular case to say why it's uniquely difficult for
00:44:27.880millennials or Gen Z or Gen X or whatever. But I think it's always been hard to honor your father
00:44:32.580and mother because the children have a front row seat, especially once they've grown and gained
00:44:38.640perspective. They have a unique front row seat into the failures of their parents. And so all
00:44:45.040that being said, one pastoral note that I would say for just a wide broth of Christians seeking
00:44:52.580to honor their father and mother is the question I most often get as a pastor in relation to this
00:44:58.420topic is how do you honor a dishonorable father? How do you honor a dishonorable mother? The first
00:45:04.260thing that I would say is I don't think anything is quite that black and white. I don't think that
00:45:09.000any father and mother exclusively falls into a honor category, honorable category, or dishonorable
00:45:15.440category. It's usually a hodgepodge of things that are honorable and things that are dishonorable,
00:45:20.360but with those dishonorable things, I continually think of the illustration of the sons of Noah.
00:45:26.680What we can't do as Christians, as we seek to obey this command of honoring our father and mother,
00:45:31.540is we can't be given to lies. Live not by lies. We cannot flatter, we cannot gossip,
00:45:37.520and we cannot slander gossip is is saying it can include true statements about someone but but not
00:45:44.560in their presence and in such a way that it's meant to tear them down it's not productive it's
00:45:48.880not for their welfare and good so gossip can be true statements but it's it's outside of the
00:45:53.440presence of an individual with the intention of breaking the person down slander is making
00:45:58.420quantitatively false statements about someone but flattery but but with the intent of tearing
00:46:06.380them down, false negative statements. Flattery, likewise, is similar to slander in the sense that
00:46:11.180it can be like gossip outside of their presence, but often flattery is actually in the person's
00:46:16.340presence. Out of gossip, slander, and flattery, flattery is most commonly to the person's face.
00:46:22.440And it's also false statements like slander, except it's unique in the sense that it's
00:46:26.960positive statements, saying very nice things, very positive things, but that are false things
00:46:33.280to the person's face in order to position yourself better, in order to gain their graces.
00:48:16.160What it does is it takes something that sure, everything has flaws, nothing's perfect, but
00:48:20.940it takes something that's generally good and and and it emphasizes its weaknesses and failures but
00:48:28.080only for the purpose of deconstructing and tearing it down with no intention of building something
00:48:33.400better in its place it it lies and says well we have this grand utopia this this better substitute
00:48:38.440that will replace um but it doesn't it it doesn't all it's doing is it's taking things that are
00:48:44.480generally good imperfect as they as they may be but generally good and and emphasizing highlighting
00:48:51.220putting the magnifying glass over all of their their faults and fractures and making the headline
00:48:56.700of the story america is bad our civil fathers the headline of the story uh the church is abusive
00:49:02.220and covers up you know this and that like right now what's happening with uh dr john mccarthur
00:49:07.200you know and and makes that the headline of the story or um or uh families are bad and and
00:49:13.220And patriarchal, you know, immediate families and households are bad.
00:49:17.460It makes that the headline of the story.
00:49:18.820And so I think that that is just an epidemic in our culture today and with my generation, younger generations today, is to deconstruct, to take the faults of systems and families and all these things and make that the headline of the story.
00:49:40.800but we get to choose. We don't get to choose what's true or false, but we do get to choose
00:49:46.480what to emphasize. I think a large lion's share of what it means to honor thy father and mother
00:49:51.900is not slander. It's also not flattery. It's not gossip, but it's saying like the righteous
00:49:58.140sons of Noah, it's covering the failures and emphasizing the successes. And each of us have
00:50:05.080something about our mother and father that's good that we can say that's going to get the headline.
00:50:10.800mm-hmm joel i really appreciate that that's uh that's a timely word and i've uh i as a guy of
00:50:20.480a younger generation i feel that conviction as well i recognize that in myself and my peers
00:50:25.720i think you're uh you're right on there with the with your own counsel joe uh same question
00:50:34.060I guess, which was, where are some areas where we need to repent of going along with culture
00:50:40.800with regards to the fifth commandment?
00:50:45.340Well, first, I think it's important to reiterate something that Joel said earlier, and that
00:50:52.760is that as Christians, we need to be reminded as we ask and answer that question, that the
00:51:00.580law of God is described in scripture as, as we heard, right and good. And we have the metaphors
00:51:12.740of it's sweeter than honey from the honeycomb. It's more precious than gold and silver.
00:51:19.440um it is uh it's something that is going to be for our real blessing in this life
00:51:27.880um with our families and our communities now in the here and now these are not merely eternal
00:51:35.340blessings with some reference to the consummation these are about our temporal life now that's the
00:51:42.680goodness and the blessing of god's law so that when we obey it god is not the cosmic killjoy
00:51:48.440When we obey God's law in the honoring of our parents as families, as a society, as a culture, the result is very real, very concrete blessing.
00:52:01.600And remember that Jesus really in the Great Commission tells us that because he says all authority in heaven and earth is mine.
00:52:12.680Therefore, go and disciple the nations and teach them everything I have commanded you.
00:52:19.780And that's for the blessing of the nations.
00:52:22.080So when we think about this and we think about the condition of our culture and what it's rejected, what it's set aside,
00:52:28.200Perhaps the place I would start very quickly is the place where where Joel left off there related to what he was saying about critical theory and the way that what we would call sort of wokeism, wokeery, jiggery, wokeery, as I like to call it, is inflicting our culture.
00:52:49.740is that one of the areas we see this commandment despised
00:52:54.840is in the disrespect that our culture has for the elderly.
00:53:10.500We almost want to make adolescence a sort of semi-permanent state.
00:53:18.020I mean, it used to be something that would attract ridicule for a 60- or 70-year-old man to be dressed in the fashions of a European teenager and see him behaving like one, thinking he was hip and trendy.
00:53:35.980But that is the way in which we have almost positioned our society.
00:58:45.680and that is precisely why the the eldest godly child received a double portion we do see of
00:58:51.700course at times where an ungodly child is set aside we see frequently in the older testament
00:58:57.020there where the younger son receives the blessing and then receives the responsibility with it and
00:59:02.860the responsibility is part of the blessing i've had the privilege of for a number of years now
00:59:07.700taking my parents into my own home because they they don't have the means to support themselves
00:59:16.140after many many years as missionaries overseas and the blessing to my children and to my family
00:59:22.980through that has been immense it doesn't mean that every moment of every day isn't without its
00:59:28.440moments of challenge because that's what it means to be human but the but the blessing has been
00:59:34.720immense and so i would say that that that aspect respect for elderly care for parents um we have
00:59:42.240abdicated that in our society and we've handed it over to the state and the result has been the
00:59:48.000destruction of the family and uh and not an appropriate care for our parents i mean think
00:59:52.880about what happened in the last few years when uh a virus struck um many of our parents who were
01:00:00.000of our culture in these care homes were left on the floor to die
01:00:05.780we do not give to the state the responsibilities that are given to to the family and jesus as i
01:00:16.280said in mark 7 is very very clear about this he accused the pharisees of making void of nullifying
01:00:22.060god's law by their tradition in saying well you know i've i've given my gifts to the temple i
01:00:26.440don't need to do anything for my parents and he says you you make void the law by your tradition
01:00:33.480and so i think if we look at those two just those two things honor and respect for the elderly and
01:00:40.320the way we see that utterly collapsing and we we'd rather see them outside out of mind if not dead
01:00:45.640um we don't want to learn from the elderly we don't want to respect the aged and we've idealized
01:00:53.540youth which the bible doesn't do um and uh we need to think about that even in the life of the church
01:01:00.200and and and in our in our families and then caring for our parents i think which is absolutely
01:01:06.440critical to a stable society to a god-honoring society and so to a society that's concerned
01:01:12.540concerned with inheritance blessing um and um and passing on the inheritance one of the reasons why
01:01:20.880our culture is in freefall is that we no longer know who we are because that has not been passed
01:01:26.820on because the multi-generational family life has been almost completely destroyed and we
01:01:34.640desperately need to recover it if our society is going to survive. No society survives the
01:01:40.700destruction of the family. It's part of God's judgment on our apostasy that we are where we are
01:01:45.660But I would say those would be two critical and vital issues where we've abdicated responsibility, and we've also handed the burden over to the state, who not only do a poor job of it, but they end up destroying the family in the process and claim to be the elder brother and seize all the inheritance for themselves.
01:02:05.900Right. Well, that's what I was going to say. We've handed the burden over to the state, and so by doing, God will not be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
01:02:13.040we've handed over the burden and god attaches the blessing to the burden um and so like the you know
01:02:20.440the death tax the estate tax you know all these kinds of things that we're part of the reason
01:02:24.640we're you know we're groaning underneath the tyranny of the state well what made the state
01:02:29.720so powerful what caused it to to to grow to such an oversized you know monster tyrant that it's
01:02:38.360become like where did it get all this power well part of it is it got a lot of money where to get
01:02:43.780that money that that blessing that that tangible you know physical blessing um because because we
01:02:49.760abdicated the burden so we said we don't want the burden of caring for our father and mother we don't
01:02:54.780want the burden for caring for our children we don't want the burden of educating our children
01:02:58.800we don't and the state with with with wicked and sinister intentions um but but nonetheless god
01:03:05.680will not be mocked there are certain principles baked into the world that god has made the state
01:03:09.960said we'll take these burdens and lo and behold they've also taken the blessing we'll take care
01:03:16.080of the elderly now they don't take care of them well but in in many cases in canada the way they
01:03:21.680take care of the elderly is like i'll take care of that you know i'll you know i'll you know
01:03:26.020euthanize them but we'll take care of the elderly we'll give your children an education with the
01:03:30.900welfare system we'll take care of your wife we'll take care of this we'll take care of that and
01:03:34.600And lo and behold, what comes with their willingness to take the burden, even though they botch the job of actually meeting the burden, but they do a halfway job, and that's being very charitable, but they do half the job of meeting the burden, but they get the whole blessing in terms of the literal financial benefit.
01:03:57.840So they're getting all the inheritance that the eldest son would get goes to the state.
01:04:03.540And then they do a lousy job of the burden.
01:04:06.640But just the willingness, you know, it's been said before that authority flocks, you know, or it just, by default, it orients to those who are willing to take responsibility.
01:04:21.040That when a man says, you know what, I'll take care of that.
01:04:24.680you know what that maybe even is outside my jurisdiction but nobody's picking up that ball
01:04:29.340i'll pick that up okay i'll i'll do this and i'll do it well and i'll do and and lo and behold i've
01:04:35.000noticed in my own life at 36 years old now you know still relatively young but as i've just i've
01:04:41.620been willing to take responsibility as i've seen certain deficiencies instead of just complaining
01:04:46.620about it saying i wish more that you know people in the evangelical church would would would address
01:04:51.240this i wish there was more teaching on this and and then saying you know what i i i don't think
01:04:56.400i'm even the best man for the job i don't have some of the credentials that i wish i had but
01:04:59.700i'm going to hit the books i'm going to i'm going to study as best i can knowing that i'll still be
01:05:04.220incomplete in many ways um but but i'm going to look to other guys like like you dr boot and like
01:05:08.980doug wilson and like jeff durbin and like james white you know and i'm going to as much as i can
01:05:12.820staff my weaknesses surround myself by these guys learn from but i'm just going to do it i'm going
01:05:16.660to start a podcast i'm going to start a ministry i'm going to write a book i'm going to plant a
01:05:19.880church i'm gonna um i'm gonna have four kids and lord willing have another and and i'm gonna
01:05:23.720and and i've just been willing to take these uh duties these responsibilities because i've seen
01:05:28.800the lack and the gaping holes in in society and in the church at large um taking the willingness
01:05:35.280to take these responsibilities all of a sudden i i can't tell you it's like clockwork but um
01:05:40.480authority comes with it that all of a sudden people uh i i have certain people asking my
01:05:46.380opinion, who never used to care what I thought. I have people sending in donations that I never
01:05:52.520had before. I have more resources. Just in the last two years of my life, as I've taken on certain
01:05:57.820responsibilities and just been willing to take the burden, the blessing comes. And we have
01:06:03.620essentially, as a culture, and the church particularly, and households, those two spheres
01:06:09.220of the home and the church have basically said, we don't want the burden, the duty that God gives
01:06:15.340to us his law and we forfeited the blessing and now that third sphere is is 10 times the size
01:06:23.480of the other two and and we're so quick to say it's because of their tyranny they took it from
01:06:28.500us in many ways we gave it to them we gave the burden not realizing that god will not be mocked
01:06:34.960and that and that blessing follows burden and we gave them the burden and and they're half doing
01:06:41.400the burden but getting the whole blessing and then using that blessing and all those resources to
01:06:46.240turn their sights and the gun further and it becomes this vicious cycle and the way to break
01:06:51.240it is not to demand the blessing that's ours the way to break it the first step is to take back
01:06:55.900the burden that's awesome yeah and with it the authority which is a key point joel i really
01:07:01.500appreciate your time uh we've taken a goodish amount of it uh for those who are interested in
01:07:07.560checking up with you? We might have some listeners who aren't familiar with you and your work.
01:07:12.840Where can they go and learn more? Right Response Ministries. Thanks again,
01:07:18.780you guys, for having me on the show. It's been an honor. But Right Response Ministries is the name
01:07:22.320of the ministry outside of my local church, Covenant Bible Church. If they happen to be in
01:07:26.340Central Texas, they may be able to come. We're in Georgetown, Texas, Williamson County. But
01:07:30.420the ministry that's digital and remote is Right Response Ministries. They can go to