In this episode, Pastor Joel Webin talks about why the church seems to be indifferent or even resistant at times in leading the culture as the prophetic voice of the culture, and why we need to be a thinking church, not just feeling through things.
00:00:47.220When the conference was being birthed and we were getting ready to call these speakers,
00:00:53.900It's something how God providentially put each and every one of us together in each one of our each other's paths.
00:01:02.960And I praise God for this this opportunity for us to talk about what we have talked about and answer some questions that might be on your heart.
00:01:14.600We've received some questions that we're going to go through.
00:01:18.460And again, just to highlight and amplify the talks, the messages that have already gone forth and the issues as well, the issues of our day.
00:05:44.280You know, and Ben Shapiro and Louder with Crowder and The Blaze and, you know, all these different networks and entities, Fox News, Tucker Carlson.
00:05:56.400Like, I'm not saying they're right about everything.0.88
00:05:58.960And my whole point is to describe them as culture rather than church because most of these guys are not Christians.
00:06:04.480Now, there are Christians in these organizations.
00:06:06.500Like, I'm really grateful for Megan Basham with The Daily Wire.0.91
00:06:11.640So there are Christians in there, and that's strategic.
00:06:14.880We need Christians in these organizations.
00:06:18.100But a lot of them are headed by guys like Ben Shapiro is not a Christian.
00:06:21.020You know, Jordan Peterson, I pray God saves him, but as far as I can tell right now, he's not regenerate.
00:06:26.080He has an appreciation, respect for the word of God, but he doesn't see Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life, the only.
00:06:34.180You know, so my point is, but these guys are leaving the charge, not the evangelical church.
00:06:39.080They are leading the charge against critical race theory, against intersectionality, against transgenderism and and the whole LGBT, you know, just totalitarian militant arm of the culture and the political mechanisms that you must affirm this.
00:06:57.640It's not enough to tolerate anymore. You have to applaud. You have to cheer. You have to celebrate.0.99
00:07:03.300This needs to be, we need to have drag queen story hour.
00:07:25.400And I've always seen that principle, the church lagging five to eight years behind the culture.
00:07:30.200I've always seen that in terms of the culture going into further degradation, the culture going into further perversion, the culture going into further idolatry, and the church coming into it also, but slower.0.99
00:07:42.560This is the first time in my life I've seen the culture go so far in one direction towards sin that enough people in the culture that aren't even regenerate Christians are saying, yeah, we don't want to trans kids.0.97
00:07:55.640We're pagans and we still don't want to trans kids.0.72
00:07:58.000you know and and and then the church for the first time is not going to be slow to sin1.00
00:08:03.260I think they're going to be slow to repent for the first time in in my life that the church is
00:08:09.200going to be not compromising behind the culture but repenting behind the culture and so all that
00:08:15.980in terms of the the actual question my answer is fear of man fear of man so why getting down to
00:08:22.800the heart, the reason, the motive. Why is the church always slow? They're slow to join the
00:08:27.960culture in compromise. They're slow to join the culture in reformation. Why are they always slow?
00:08:34.080Because the church surveys the land, looks at all the different possible outcomes,
00:08:42.060looks at, because the church does more PR than it does repentance. The church does,
00:08:48.740more about its image than faithfulness to Christ. The church cares more. That's why. So I think the
00:08:58.020church is always behind. There is something to be said for, I don't want to be reckless. I want to
00:09:03.400be seasoned. I want to be methodical. I want to be wise. This is not representative of wisdom and
00:09:10.940carefulness. I think it's representative of compromise and cowardice. The church is cowardly.
00:09:18.040I view the church today, evangelicalism, in this particular cultural moment as the armies of Israel when Goliath would come out day after day from the Philistines and taunt the armies of the living God, and they would be quaking in their boots.0.97
00:09:31.680They would be trembling and shivering, all lined up, all lined up, but no one willing to go and meet the challenge.
00:09:38.560Once David meets the challenge, and he cuts off Goliath's head with his own sword, then, and only then, the armies of Israel begin to charge and run down the Philistines.1.00
00:09:52.140And I think that's the way that most Christians operate.0.73
00:09:56.020Most Christians, because of sin, because we're human, because we don't reach a state of sinless perfection in this life, most Christians need a champion.
00:12:33.660I'm thinking of something I told you actually
00:12:35.600when we did the radio show to promote this event.
00:12:39.320And I've had a lot of emails and calls from pastors and they will be asking me, Sam, I'm getting pressured to embrace critical race theory because if I don't teach critical race theory, I will lose some of my black church members or some of my black, some of our black neighbors will not be comfortable coming to our church.
00:13:02.520And this would be usually white pastors.
00:13:05.040I'm like, what are you calling me for?
00:13:06.220god has already told you what to do you're calling me because you're telling me you are afraid of
00:13:16.820black people which is racist right um because you wouldn't think well i'm afraid of saying
00:13:25.120something because it might offend white people um you you know i became i i was attracted to a good0.89
00:13:34.180church not because they were teaching critical race theory but because they
00:13:38.560were teaching the gospel I am a sinner above everything else and God the
00:13:45.940gospel brings sinners to God and to a local church but people fear men more
00:13:55.120than they fear God you know and the irony of people being afraid to address
00:14:02.320the issue of justice and what's happening in our culture is they think they are being the opposite
00:14:09.680of the of our forefathers in terms of people who were supporting slavery before or who were not
00:14:15.680speaking on slavery well they were also operating out of the fear of man as well so you know it's
00:14:23.120it's it's deeply concerning now with all that being said and i know uh you know we all here
00:14:28.880would agree with this the church is still the light of the world right we are still the salt
00:14:34.880of the earth the church is still the very best at addressing this issue but we are also failing
00:14:44.480the the world because our light is not shining as bright as it can so yeah so all i can really say
00:14:54.800is a lot of the failure to resist what's happening in our culture is because a lot of us are afraid.
00:15:03.640And I think maybe on another point is in the 90s the fundamentalists were very influential
00:15:11.240and they would oftentimes go too far in that they would forget that they were ambassadors for Christ
00:21:42.300He is the supreme being in the universe.
00:21:47.480And yet, he's the most humble person in the universe.
00:21:52.440So when we are to emulate him, when we are called to be like him,
00:21:58.660and yet we are prideful, we are the least like him in that way.
00:22:05.480Of course, the son of man came to serve.
00:22:09.660So while I'm not a pastor, I know that by serving in different ways,
00:22:18.040the act of service itself is of humility.
00:22:21.500It is not to be service, it's to serve others.
00:22:24.100So like with anything, when it concerns godliness,
00:22:29.640following Christ's example is the way.
00:22:31.900And also just knowing that, from my experience, just knowing pastors,
00:22:36.900As soon as you become a pastor, that in and of itself gets very humbling because you learn very quickly that it is a very difficult, difficult call from God.
00:22:48.080And we know, as Mike suggested, that there will be a greater, there will be greater judgment for pastors.
00:22:58.440The Bible does say that not everyone should pursue that ministry.
00:23:06.900I think that, you know, again, this particular cultural moment is unique in the sense that a lot of the gatekeepers, a lot of institutional authority and entities and organizations in our nation, society as a whole, have utterly and completely discredited themselves.
00:23:25.760the medical institution has discredited itself there's a lot of lack of trust the media has
00:23:33.800discredited itself by lying government has discredited itself Hollywood and entertainment
00:23:42.520has discredited itself academia higher academia all these kinds of things right people were told
00:23:49.300if I go and get a college degree it's okay if I take out debt because I'm going to get this great
00:23:53.060job. I'm going to be able to pay it back. And then a bunch of people got a gender studies degree and
00:23:57.320they're asking, would you like fries with that? And they've got, you know, $120,000 of debt. And
00:24:01.980Joe Biden said he'd pay it off and he hasn't. I hope he doesn't. So all that being said, like
00:24:06.160there's a lot of lack of trust with our institutions. And sadly, the church is no
00:24:12.540exception. That would be one more institution that has discredited itself. And so I know this
00:24:18.700wasn't particularly the question, but I think there's a lot of righteously angry young men
00:24:26.760right now who are going to be denied eldership. They're going to be denied the deaconate
00:24:36.880because they want to be faithful, because they want to speak the truth. They actually want to
00:24:47.200be like David. David, to go back to that, you know, illustration, another piece of the puzzle
00:24:52.840was, you're right, Mark, David was jealous for the glory of God. But before he went and actually
00:25:00.720engaged Goliath, he was dissuaded by his brothers, his older brothers. And that could, you could
00:25:09.260preach a sermon on that. I think there are a lot of older brothers right now who are dissuading
00:25:14.940younger, zealous brothers. They don't want that little brother to go and embarrass them.
00:25:23.080And it's not because they think, it's not out of love for the younger brother. It's not, David,
00:25:26.900we don't want you to go and face down Goliath because you're going to die. It's no, David,
00:25:31.380we don't want you to go and face down Goliath because we know we should be doing it. And we
00:25:35.920won't. We won't. And it would be to our shame. So it's not a love for David and wanting to protect
00:25:41.960his skin. It's actually a love for their own self-image and wanting to protect their own
00:25:49.040reputation. David facing off Goliath. It wasn't just that Goliath needed to be slain.
00:25:56.860There's a lot going on in the story, and one is David's choice to face down Goliath was an0.86
00:26:01.520indictment of all of Israel. David's older brothers, all the armies, King Saul. King Saul0.83
00:26:08.320should have faced down Goliath. He even tries to put him in his armor. There's a lot of things that
00:26:14.340we could draw out in that. I want you to look like me as you go and face down Goliath. And David's
00:26:18.500like, no, I'm going to face Goliath as David, not as King Saul. If you want King Saul to face Goliath,
00:26:23.120then King Saul, get up and go face Goliath. But if you won't do it, then a little boy is going to do1.00
00:26:27.740it. And he's going to do it as a little boy does it. It's going to be a little unorthodox. It's not
00:26:31.900going to be your typical strategy. I'm not going to use a spear and a sword. I'm going to go in
00:26:37.120there with my slingshot that I've been using to kill squirrels in the backyard. Like that's how
00:26:40.780I'm going to face down. I'm going to do it like, you know, like a little boy, but I'm going to get
00:26:44.820it done. And the reason a little boy's doing is because all the men won't. And so my point is
00:26:50.780these older brothers, these Kings, these guys in institutional power, just like in the media,
00:26:56.260just like you're not going to get a position. I just, I'll save you a lot of time. Young men,
00:27:03.000any young man listening to this, who feels called to the ministry. Let me just tell you right now,
00:27:06.38099% chance you go to your pastor and say, I feel called to be an elder. I want an opportunity to
00:27:11.880preach. You're going to be told that you're reckless, that you're being arrogant, that you're
00:27:15.060being presumptuous, that you're being quarrelsome, that you're being divisive, that you don't have
00:27:19.140enough winsomeness. You're going to be told in so many words, no. So what you're going to have to do
00:27:25.980is you're going to have to wear your own armor. You're going to have to do it as you. You're not
00:27:31.020going to be able to wear King Saul's armor. You're not going to be able to do it through the
00:27:35.940gatekeepers because they're going to deny you passage. And so what I'm saying is, you know,
00:27:41.160we're going to need new media companies. We're going to need new doctors, Christian doctors
00:27:45.520and medicine. We're going to need all the new institutions. And at the level of the church,
00:27:49.520we're going to need a lot of church planters. We're going to need a lot of young men who are
00:27:53.540willing to say, I don't want to be rogue. I don't want to be disrespectful, but my pastor won't give
00:28:01.140me a shot and he won't be faithful himself. And so it's going to look like a lot of guys planting
00:28:06.280churches in their living rooms, you know, and, and that's the beauty. This is one of the reasons
00:28:11.680why I'm Baptist. That's the beauty of our Baptist polity is that when it comes to ordination,
00:28:17.160it's through the common suffrage of the saints. So if you've got, you know, if you've got five
00:28:21.720to 10 households that are willing to be in your living room and hear you preach God's words on a
00:28:27.480Sunday morning, they can ordain you. And you can plant a church. And I'm not saying that's ideal,
00:28:33.020but desperate moments call for some desperate means, not unfaithful means. This is still within
00:28:39.840the realm of faithfulness, but it is a little different than what ordinarily we would see.
00:28:45.200what do you believe we'll go to the next question very good what do what do you believe is the
00:28:58.600biggest hindrance for I think this is going to gel with the first question what do you believe
00:29:04.120is the biggest hindrance for evangelicals accepting the truth of scripture that seems
00:29:12.920like an oxymoron. Right? Evangelicals accepting the truth of Scripture. That should be a given.
00:29:26.940But I understand the question, but what do you believe, we'll start with you, Samuel,
00:29:35.820what do you believe is the biggest hindrance for evangelicals accepting the truth of Scripture?
00:29:42.620So I think it would be helpful to put it in the context of, again, we've been talking a lot about the culture because the culture is having a great impact on the church.
00:29:54.540It is pushing the church in a direction away from the lordship of Christ.
00:30:05.560um we think we won't be offending someone with the truth or with anything we do the bible is
00:30:18.600very clear you either offend god or you offend um sinners and i think a lot of us believe
00:30:28.440we can be inoffensive to our culture while being truthful, but that's impossible. The Bible says
00:30:38.100that's not possible. You are either a friend of God or you are a friend of the world, and you are
00:30:43.980either an enemy of God or you're an enemy of the world. There's no in between, and I think a lot of
00:30:49.580us, a lot of evangelicals want to believe that if they simply are friendly with the world,
00:30:58.800then they can win the world to Christ. But that's impossible. The world hates us.
00:31:06.880They are our enemy. They want, they are waging war against us. But yet we're going into this
00:31:13.480battle thinking they want to be our friends when they don't. So I would say that's the reason.
00:31:19.580so i would say as i was thinking about i agree 100 with what samuel said
00:31:30.300i would also say that it's a lack of repentance
00:31:34.880pride that is built up in the heart of man and pastors leaders all across our country what we
00:31:46.540see is a lack of repentance. And I know I'll get a lot of pushback for this, but even with people
00:31:52.700that, sorry, that are celebrated in the public sphere, take for example, Donald Trump.
00:32:02.220I think he did a lot of great things for the country. I'll be the first to say that,
00:32:06.140but the man has not repented. He's not. He has not put his faith and trust in Jesus.
00:32:15.380as far as I can tell, even though people want that to be the case. When he was asked
00:32:21.280about when, you know, when have you repented? He said, why would I need to repent?
00:32:28.600That's not a Christian. So believers, I'm not hitting on Donald Trump. Don't hear that. It's
00:32:35.860just that I'm just using that as an example because he's a very notable public figure.
00:32:39.520And that's the problem with our culture right now, is a lack of acknowledging that Jesus is king and that we are to repent and follow him, not take liberty to be just completely on our own, making our own ideas.
00:32:54.300That's pragmatism, regardless of what you seek the ends to be, not taking liberty to be overly piastic, as Joel has rightly claimed that some ministers have been.
00:33:07.480but in reality we need to acknowledge that we have accountability to the one righteous king
00:33:15.300so let's not celebrate people so much as we are seeking to honor jesus
00:33:23.040so i think i think double-sided coin i think the two primary hindrances to the evangelical church
00:33:33.760you know really accepting the truth of scripture and proclaiming the truth of scripture and being
00:33:38.380that prophetic voice to the culture one of them is the fear of man that's kind of what we address
00:33:43.060in the first couple of questions the other I think it very much what Sam said which is a misguided
00:33:49.220compassion a wicked pity empathy I think these kinds of things it's on one hand people are you
00:34:02.960The hindrance is, I'm not going to speak the truth because of my image, the fear of man.
00:45:49.580No, I would agree absolutely with how Samuel just outlined those essentials because that is the dividing line.
00:46:01.500Those things are the dividing line, but I think we have to understand the gospel correctly.
00:46:06.320If you start off with a faulty gospel, you're going to start off with faulty essentials,
00:46:11.600and then you're going to turn non-essentials into essentials when you don't have the gospel right.
00:46:18.520And so I think we have to start with the gospel as he just walked us through.
00:46:23.120So understanding the gospel, the life, the death, the resurrection, the ascension of Christ, the Trinity, all of those things are absolutely essential.
00:46:35.760And you cannot give one inch, but we have to, with confidence, without wavering, stand unopposed to those things.
00:46:42.820You can get into some things that are popular in evangelicalism, talking about how or when Christ will return and get into those deep things of eschatology.
00:47:01.300I think as I struggle with that right now and working through those intricacies with that, that is absolutely, in my biblical conviction, not an essential that would divide, as Pastor Mike says.
00:47:21.500but the essentials has to start with the gospel, getting the gospel right. And I'm afraid that a
00:47:29.660lot of people do not get the gospel right. They don't understand the gospel, and therefore they
00:47:36.040don't lead with the gospel, and therefore they're silent about things because they don't understand
00:47:40.960the gospel correctly. They're not prophetic to the culture because they don't believe Christ is king
00:47:46.480or Lord, and therefore we have nothing to say to the culture in specific things, politics and
00:47:52.780academia and all parts of life where Christ will rule and reign. And so the essentials are
00:48:00.600absolutely what Pastor Harding and Samuel has outlined for us. But again, I think they just
00:48:09.320said in a more outlined fashion, but I'm just putting the gospel over it, understanding the
00:48:15.920gospel correctly. So what we're talking about is theological triage, the prioritization of
00:48:26.000different doctrines. You have primary, you have secondary, and tertiary. Those are your primary
00:48:30.140three categories. But it's important, I think, that Christians recognize that it's not just like
00:48:34.180three shelves. You have three categories, but then within each of these categories, especially
00:48:39.500especially the secondary category, there are multiple shells, meaning baptism, for instance,
00:48:45.960credo versus pedo. Do we baptize the children of believers, infant baptism, or do we have a
00:48:53.280believer's baptism that we wait for a credible profession of faith? That is a secondary issue.
00:48:59.380Reformed or not reformed is also a secondary issue, but one of those is still higher than
00:49:07.340the other. What I mean is that both are within the secondary category, but reformed or not
00:49:14.100reformed, right? Having a reformed soteriology, I'm thinking of the five solas, I'm thinking of
00:49:20.020the tulip, you know, the doctrines of grace. It's more important, I think, that somebody agrees on
00:49:26.680the doctrines of grace than we agree on mode of baptism. So I would sooner, what I'm saying is,
00:49:34.520I would sooner, and that's without elevating the doctrines of grace into a first tier primary
00:49:40.460category, right? Charles Spurgeon famously said, Calvinism is the gospel. I know what he's saying.
00:49:46.620I amen what he's saying. However, I think it's better to say Calvinism is the most appropriate
00:49:53.860biblically faithful framework for presenting the gospel. And so, because if not, if we don't say
00:50:01.340that and we're saying anyone who's not a calvinist is a non-christian they don't have the gospel they
00:50:06.820have by rejecting the doctrines of grace they have rejected grace itself and i'm not willing to go
00:50:11.640that far however i would much sooner if i was not a pastor and i'm looking for a church for my family
00:50:16.780to become members in worship i would much sooner go to a presbyterian church as a baptist and be a
00:50:22.900member there with my children than I would go to a Calvary Chapel church that's Arminian
00:50:30.720in their teaching of soteriology. So I guess all I'm saying is just adding another piece to the
00:50:36.780puzzle that I think that, you know, sometimes we can oversimplify it, you know, with theological
00:50:42.040triage. There's primary, secondary, and tertiary, and I think what a lot of Christians miss is that