BONUS - What Are Your Thoughts On CrossPolitic’s Statement About Baptists & Transgenderism？
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Summary
Pastor Joel Webbe talks about the controversy surrounding the CrossPolitik podcast and its host, Toby Sumter, as well as the challenges of being a guest host on a podcast with three other people and a lack of clarity.
Transcript
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Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.
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If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,
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would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?
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This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do
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to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks.
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All right, welcome back to another weekly live Q&A with myself, Pastor Joel, with Right Response Ministries.
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We do this every Monday afternoon at 12 p.m. Central Time.
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We've missed a couple because of federal holidays and certain things going on, but we try to
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be as consistent as we can every Monday at 12 p.m. Central Time, a live Q&A session with
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yours truly, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries.
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So today, I wanted to start off, and we'll see how much time we have to get to other
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things, but I wanted to start off with some of the controversy that's been unfolding on
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social media, especially Twitter, which is constructed deliberately to kind of foster
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a little smart aleck quips and things like that. So Twitter certainly breeds controversy and
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conflict and those kinds of things. But the controversy surrounding CrossPolitik,
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CrossPolitik, for some of you guys who are not aware, they are a podcast out of Moscow, Idaho.
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Toby Sumter, for a long time, he's one of the hosts. There's three of them. Toby Sumter,
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for a long time, he was a pastor with Douglas Wilson at Christchurch. He's now
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a senior pastor of a church plant. I believe it's King's Crown or something like that. Does
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that sound right, Nathan? I think it's King's Crown Church. If it's not King's Crown, it should
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be because that's a great name. But King's Crown Church, Toby Sumter is the lead pastor, senior
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pastor there. They also have David Shannon. He goes by the moniker Chocolate Knox. And then they
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also have as their third host, Gabriel Wrench, who goes by the moniker Waterboy. That's because
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he's a deacon at Christ Church. And so it's kind of just a tongue in cheek playing around with him
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because he's a deacon. So anyways, CrossPolitik is a great podcast. It really is. They have a lot
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of really good things. There's certain things that I don't always like, because there's really
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no podcast that I perfectly like, including my own. I go back and listen to some of the things
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that I've done, and I think, oh, man, I wish I had done that differently, or I wish I had done
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that better. One of the challenges, I think, of cross-politic, just practically speaking for a
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moment in terms of their format, is that it's three guys. And so, you know, with Right Response
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Ministries, we have kind of our flagship show that's called Theology Applied. It airs on
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Tuesdays. And in that show, I have a guest always that joins me, somebody that I respect and
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somebody that I would have at least some measure of theological agreement with, somebody who is
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an Orthodox Christian and who has some expertise in a particular field, whatever subject we happen
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to be talking about in that episode. And in those episodes, even just with one other person,
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one other guest, it's easy to say things because you're going back and forth. You're having a good
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time. You're enjoying one another and the conversation that's unfolding. And you can say
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something that if you were just speaking solo, you probably would have said more thoroughly.
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You would have offered more disclaimers, more clarity surrounding a particular statement
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where people would probably get the information better. But when you're doing a discussion,
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especially if it's the cross-politic guys, they're having a really good time on their show.
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They're laughing, they're joking, and they're saying things that are really, I think,
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much of what they say is true and profound and helpful. But even when they say things
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well, I often find myself wishing that they would have slowed down and just one guy talk
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for a little while, you know, and flesh that thought out a little bit more. So my point
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is it's hard when you're being interrupted, when you're interrupting one another, sometimes
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clarity falls to the wayside. And so the particular comment that was made was made by one of their
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guest and he's on the Fight Laugh Feast network. The Fight Laugh Feast network is kind of the host
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of CrossPolitik and the CrossPolitik show is their flagship show. Those are the guys who started
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Fight Laugh Feast. But Fight Laugh Feast has multiple podcast contributors and authors of
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blogs and they hold an annual Fight Laugh Feast conference. And so they had one of their Fight
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Laugh Feast fellows, for lack of a better term, I'm not sure what they call them, but Fight Laugh
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Feast podcast host, Jason Farley is his name. And he came on the show as a special guest in a
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particular cross-politic episode. And he made a comment about credo-baptist theology. They were
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talking about, you know, these guys are Presbyterians and so they're pedo-baptist,
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infant baptism. And so they were talking about the credo-baptist position, a believer's baptism,
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baptism following faith, an incredible profession of faith being made by the individual who's being
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baptized. And Jason Farley likened it to the transgender movement. And Gabe actually paused
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for a second and said, did you just say that, I can't remember exactly how Gabe worded, but he
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said, did you just say that the Credo Baptist position is similar to transgenderism? And Jason
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Farley doubled down and said, I didn't say it's similar. I said it caused it. And so he had a
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chance right there. He had an opportunity to kind of clarify or backpedal a little bit,
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go a little bit softer, but he leaned in and actually said that the Credo Baptist position,
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a believer's baptism, that doctrine and that viewpoint is the cause of the transgender
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movement that we find in our pagan culture today. All right. So I'll give you my thoughts on it,
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but first let's play a game. Okay. Let's play a game. So a believer's baptism,
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credo Baptist position that there needs to be faith preceding baptism, that we're not baptizing
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someone into the new covenant. And then later trusting that they're going to, um, to become
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internal members of the covenant. They're externally members of the new covenant,
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receiving external promises and blessings, but they have to internally, um, actually,
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actually lay hold of those promises through faith. And that will come after it'll, it'll be
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a post experience. So it's baptism first and then, and then faith following baptism. Well,
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the believer's baptism, credo Baptist position is the opposite, that faith comes first, that faith
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is the door into the new covenant. So there aren't two tiers of new covenant people with external new
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covenant people and internal new covenant people. There's just one new covenant people and the door
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is faith so how do you get into the new covenant well by virtue of being in the new covenant you
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have union with christ by the spirit and the door to union with christ being a recipient of the new
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covenant is faith that christ is the mediator of the new covenant all of its blessings all of its
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promises and christ mediates this new covenant by his blood so i am a baptist i i agree with
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Presbyterians on many things. I frequently upset my Baptist brothers. They feel like I'm too close
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to being a Presbyterian. But the reason why I am still a Baptist, and as far as I can tell,
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unless God does something radical and changes my mind, I will always be a Baptist, live a Baptist,
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die a Baptist, is because, well, for one, because I'm a Calvinist. Okay, and let me clarify that.
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This is why it's helpful to have a solo show, because Presbyterians are Calvinist. They are
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reformed in terms of the doctrines of grace, their view of soteriology, all those kinds of things.
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But my understanding, I should specify, my understanding of Calvinism, particularly as
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it pertains to the third point on the tulip, limited atonement, or maybe better put, definite
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atonement, meaning that Jesus died for a definitive group of people. It's not a universal
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work at Calvary. But rather, no, Jesus did not die for each and every individual. But as the
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good shepherd, John chapter 10, the shepherd lays his life down for the sheep. And not everybody
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is a sheep. We know that at the end, he will separate the sheep from the goats. And we also
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have wolves in sheep's clothing that are not sheep. They are ravenous wolves. And so the Bible
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paints this picture with multiple players on the board. There are sheep, there are goats,
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There are wolves, there are under shepherds that are also sheep, but there are also elders
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and leaders in the local church, under shepherds, the chief shepherd being Christ.
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And John chapter 10 says that Jesus, he lays his life down.
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The good shepherd gives his life, not for sheep and goats and wolves and any other animal
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that might be on the field, but he actually lays his life down, particularly for the sheep.
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And so because of my affirmation of limited atonement, I believe that Jesus died to purchase
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not just salvation, but all the benefits and the promises that accompany salvation, all
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the promises of the new covenant, meaning that Jesus didn't just die so that you could
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But in so doing, what that includes is that Jesus died to purchase your regenerate heart.
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He died to purchase for you the gifts, they are not works of men, we don't conjure these
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things up, but the gifts of faith and repentance.
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Jesus died not just for your justification, but to purchase the work of the Spirit in
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your life from justification in the realm of sanctification.
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Jesus died to purchase even in glorification your new resurrected and glorified body that
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Jesus died to purchase all these things. So the Arminian believes that Jesus died. His death is
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universal and what it purchases is a universal potential of salvation. Jesus died to purchase
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the possibility of salvation for all. The Calvinist believes Jesus died to purchase the actuality of
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salvation for some. So Jesus did not die to purchase the possibility or the offer of salvation
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for all, but he actually died to purchase the guarantee of salvation for a specific list of
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names for the new covenant people. And he is mediating all the promises of the new covenant,
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which just to list a few, we already said regeneration and faith and repentance, but
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to put this in scriptural terms, some of the prophecies that we have from Jeremiah or Ezekiel,
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as it says, I will remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. So that's
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speaking of regeneration, a heart of flesh that is softened and malleable and receptive
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to God's word and God's commands and God's truth, his gospel.
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But furthermore, we see that, you know, under the old covenant, we had the Ten Commandments,
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And we can also argue because we know that even in Gentile nations before the coming
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of Christ, the Ten Commandments, God's moral law was written not just on tablets of stone,
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but the new covenant takes it further and says, I will write my law on your hearts and I will cause
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you to walk in my ways. So not just that you will have an external and even internal sense of God's
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moral law, the 10 commandments written on your heart, but I will cause you to obey that law. I
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will cause you to walk in my commandments. Or another one is I will put the fear of myself
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within you, within you. We see Israel, you know, surrounding Mount Sinai when God gives his law
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to Moses on tablets of stone and the mountain trembles and it shakes and there are flashes
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of lightning and thunder and smoke and the people are trembling, the people are afraid.
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But the difference in the new covenant versus the old covenant is that God promises not just
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externally, externally to do great and marvelous things like the parting of the Red Sea or the
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angel of death, killing the firstborn in Egypt. These are fearful things, but in the new covenant,
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God says, I will put the fear of myself within you. I am going to guarantee that my people
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fear me. I'm going to guarantee, I'm not just going to write my law on tablets of stone. It's
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going to be in your heart, but furthermore, furthermore, I'm going to cause you to walk in
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all my ways. These are the benefits, as scripture lays it out, of the new covenant. Now, Jesus is
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the mediator. He purchases the new covenant. We might say it like this. This is what Hebrews
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teaches. Jesus purchases the new covenant by his death, right? So Jesus, his sinless life,
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fulfilling all righteousness, his life on earth, his earthly ministry, and obeying all the law of
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God. I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So Jesus, he didn't just avoid sin.
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And it's not just mere innocence, but an act of presence of righteousness.
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This is the act of obedience of Christ in his substitutionary life, right?
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He lived in our place in his substitutionary life through his act of obedience and fulfillment
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And in addition to that, his substitutionary death, absorbing the wrath of God for the
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In these ways, Jesus, he purchased the new covenant and all its promises.
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Jesus did not merely purchase the new covenant, but he rose from the dead bodily on the third
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day and not only rose from the dead, but then ascended to heaven at the right hand of the
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We have an advocate, a helper who is with us, namely the Holy Spirit sent by the father
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But we have actually in Christian thought, two advocates.
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We have one that is with us, namely the Holy Spirit sent by the father and the son, but
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another advocate who is with the Father, and that is the righteous, the God-man, Christ Jesus at the
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right hand of the Father. So Jesus lived and died to purchase the new covenant, but he rose and
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ascended and lives forevermore at the right hand of the Father to mediate the new covenant, right?
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So think of it like UPS, like a package delivery. Somebody could buy a certain item for you,
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But it's another step for them to say, I'm going to purchase this item for you on some
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online store, but then I'm also personally, to ensure it doesn't get lost in the mail
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with all the shipping chaos, thanks to Joe Biden, I'm not just going to buy this item
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for you, purchase this item for you, but I'm personally going to deliver it.
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Jesus, by his life, namely his act of obedience, his substitutionary life, and his substitutionary
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death, in those ways, his life and death, he purchases the new covenant and all its promises
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for his people. But in his resurrection and ascension and living forevermore as a high priest
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forever in the order of Melchizedek, priest and king, Jesus is not merely purchasing the new
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covenant, but he is ensuring that he personally will administer the new covenant. He will mediate
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it. He will deliver the new covenant. So he bought it and he's also the delivery man who is going to
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deliver the new covenant so that he ensures that not one person misses it. And so I say all that
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to say the reason why I'm a Baptist is because the same Jesus who dies for a particular group
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of people, limited atonement, definite atonement, is the same Jesus who mediates that new covenant.
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He doesn't just purchase it in his limited atonement death, but he mediates the new covenant
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in his intercessory role at the right hand of the father.
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And so for me, the idea that somebody could be in the new covenant that Jesus didn't actually
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So Jesus purchases the new covenant for this many people.
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This is the decretal elect, if we want to use those terms, people who will actually
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inherit salvation, those who will actually be regenerate at some point.
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the decretal elect, the new covenant people 2.0, these are the ones that Jesus died for. And he
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didn't die for anyone outside of that. If you deny that, then you're not a Calvinist and
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Presbyterians can't deny that and won't deny that because they are reformed. And so you have the
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decretal elect, those that Jesus died for, those that Jesus purchased by his death, the new covenant
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for. But then you have a wider spectrum of new covenant people that Jesus is mediating the new
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covenant for. And that's what I struggle with. Jesus mediates the promises of the new covenant
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by his blood, the very same blood that he only shed for one group of people, namely those who
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will be regenerate. So I don't see one circle, a tighter circle of decreed elect, and then a wider
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circle. I just see one circle and the door in is not baptism. The door in is faith. And then
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baptism quickly should follow in obedience to that faith. So there you have it. That's my Baptist
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card. For anybody who's wondering, is Joel going to become a Presbyterian one day? I don't know
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what God's going to do. But as far as I can tell from the scripture, no, I have no plans of, you
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know, changing in my Baptist card for a Presbyterian card. And that doesn't even get into the issue of
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polity. In some ways, I'm even more convictionally persuaded of the Baptist polity, congregational
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polity. So I am thoroughly 1689. So I say all that to say this, all right, now understanding
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that, you know, the new covenant and covenant theology, Westminster covenant, covenantalism,
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federalism from, you know, from the Presbyterian side of the aisle, and then understanding the
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Baptist working of that. Now let's play a game. All right. So the game goes like this.
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Jason Farley says that the Credo Baptist position is the cause of transgenderism. Essentially what
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he's saying is this, that a grown adult or a teenager or, but you know, somebody who knows
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what they're doing is it has the cognitive ability to make a decision, a decision. They
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first make a decision about their internal identity. I have decided that internally I am
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not lost. I am found. I am not dead. I am alive. I am not a pagan, an enemy of God, but rather I am
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a friend of God. I'm an adopted son through Christ Jesus. I've made an internal decision,
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a change, a transition about my internal identity. And then I'm going to perform some
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outward manifestation, some outward demonstration that displays my inward identity shift. So I'm
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making an inward decision to shift my identity, to transition my identity inwardly. And then I'm
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going to now externally display that through baptism as a sign of faith, and this faith
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being displayed through a credible profession of faith. I am following Jesus. And so Jason
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Farley is saying that rhetoric, that doctrine, theology of a credo-baptist position, a believer's
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baptism, says you make a decision, you wait till somebody's grown and cognitive, and then they
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make a decision about their identity internally and then they do something externally to represent
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that and isn't that just like transgenderism you decide on the inside if you're a man biologically
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one day when you're older you decide on the inside that you're a woman trapped in a man's body and
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then you do external things that try to line up with your internal transition in terms of your
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personal identity like wearing a dress and wearing makeup or or getting surgery you know and those
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kinds of things. That's Jason Farley's argument. I get the argument. Okay. And I'll come back to
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that in a moment. I think it's dumb, but I think that there's also a lot that is true, but it has
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nothing to do with baptism. So I'll come back to that in a moment. But the game that I'd like to
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play is, all right, so you could say that grown adults in the pagan culture of America today
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who transition and embrace the transgender movement. Grown men in our culture today who
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eventually identify internally as women and then begin to outwardly manifest that internal
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identity choice by wearing a dress is caused by the Credo Baptist position. Okay, well then can
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we say, if we can do that, here's the game. Could we say, um, that, that, uh, two parents
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who have a baby and the baby is not cognitive and not able to make, um, an assessment or a decision
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about their identity. These two parents say to that baby, and they perform an outward sign,
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namely a pedo baptism, an infant baptism, um, that says this baby has, uh, the identity of being
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a new covenant child. Now, again, I'm a Baptist. Okay. So hear me out. Um, in my Baptist theology
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as a credo Baptist, um, I think Presbyterians are wrong. So I think that when they say that
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their child is in the new covenant and not just a seven year old child who may have professed faith
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in Jesus and may truly be regenerate and born again, but no, a, a, um, a three month old child
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is now getting a baptism and being called, labeled, and externally receiving some kind
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of external demonstration to line up with this, what they see as a reality. They're saying this
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is a new covenant child. Now as a Baptist, I'm going to say, no, the only door into the new
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covenant is faith. And I do believe that God's promises are for us and our children. I'm not a
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dispensationalist. I have a 1689 federalism, a view of a reformed particular Baptist view of
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the covenant. So I would hold to covenant theology, not the Westminster expression,
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but I'm certainly not a dispensationalist. So I do believe God has promises for our children.
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You guys have heard me say, and it was controversial and lots of my Baptist brothers
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disagree with me, but I do believe even that my children, I believe it is 100% God's intention
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to save my kids. But I'm not saying that my kids, that they come out of the womb regenerate.
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I'm not saying that. And with God saving my kids, one of the big reasons why I say that,
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just for the record, is because I believe in unconditional election, but not arbitrary
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election. And I think Baptists make this mistake. Let me say that again, because you guys probably,
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you probably missed that. And I think that there's something here, and we Baptists need to hear.
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There is a distinction between unconditional election and arbitrary election.
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And what I mean by that is that if we are truly reformed in our view of salvation,
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if we are truly Calvinist, then we cannot sever God's predestinated ends from his predestinated
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And the Bible clearly shows that there are means of grace.
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There is a means of how God saves people, meaning God saves people unconditionally.
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but God does not save people arbitrarily. All right. So God saves through means. And one of
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the primary means we see in Romans chapter 10, how will they believe unless they hear? And how
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will they hear unless someone is preaching to them? And how will they preach unless they are
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sent? And as it is written, blessed are the feet that bring good news. What we see in scripture
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and what we see in experience is that God saves people unconditionally, but not arbitrarily. He
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saves people who have been under preaching of the gospel. Now, it's true that there are certain
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times where God in his mercy and grace may save an individual who only hears the preaching of
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the gospel once, but God never saves any individuals apart from the preaching of the
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gospel. It is the power of God for salvation. That's Romans 1 16, right? We all should be able
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to agree on this. So my position of being hopeful for my children, not believing that my children
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are born regenerate, but believing that my children are elect and that it is not a matter of if so
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much as it is a matter of simply when. Believing 100% that my children, it is the full intention
00:24:53.840
of God to save my children. Some Baptists, they operate in, and I'm talking about Calvinistic
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Baptists, they operate in this kind of position of fear. God may save my kids and he may not.
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My kids don't really stand any more chance of being saved than the Muslim kids in some
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Islamic nation. And I say, no, that's not, no. No, I disagree with that because God's salvation
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is unconditional, but it is not arbitrary. God saves through the hearing and for them to hear
00:25:26.680
the preaching of his word. Meaning what? It means, it means this. It means that if you are
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Christian parents and you, by God's grace, it's not your works, God doing this through you,
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his work in and through you, but by God's grace, if you saturate your home with the preaching of
00:25:44.520
the gospel and catechizing your children and family worship, our family, you guys have heard
00:25:50.700
me talk about family worship. We do about 30 minutes of family worship in the morning and
00:25:54.620
about 30 minutes of family worship in the evening. My children, my three-year-old has more scripture
00:26:00.900
memorized than most Christian adults that I know. We are working through catechisms. We're working
00:26:05.940
through the Bible. And right there, you're going to say, that's not unconditional election, Joel.
00:26:09.400
You're saying that you can earn the salvation of your children by your good works of Christian
00:26:13.960
parenting. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm saying that yes, unconditional election, no, arbitrary
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election. When a person is submersed in the preaching of the word, Romans 10, how will they
00:26:27.280
believe unless they hear? Well, one surefire way to get to hell is to never hear the gospel.
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Now, if someone does hear the gospel, it's not a one-to-one ratio. Those who don't hear the
00:26:39.640
gospel always go to hell. Those who do hear the gospel sometimes go to heaven. But there is a
00:26:46.520
biblical principle to say that for those who hear the gospel truly, faithfully, regularly,
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and who are preserved and protected by the grace of God through good parenting from
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hearing anti-gospels, enemies of the gospel, right? I think there's a lot of Baptist parents
00:27:04.580
who, the reason why they've hopped so on board with this idea of our kids don't stand any more
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chance of being saved by God than a pagan family's kids on the other side of the world. You know why
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Baptists have embraced that? I'm just going to be real. I think they've embraced it because most
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Baptist parents and Presbyterians for that matter, over the last multiple decades, sent their kids
00:27:27.560
to public school. And they can't bear the thought that their kids grew up and ultimately denied the
00:27:33.780
faith and that it might be their fault. Because they want to say, we preach the gospel in our
00:27:38.940
home. We raised our kids right. We were Christian. Did you? Did you have a nightly and every
00:27:46.240
morning? Did you have daily family worship in your home? No, but we took them to church. Did you?
00:27:51.020
Or did you send them to a room next to church called children's ministry? And they were in a
00:27:57.640
separate room and actually never attended the church where the ordinary means of grace were
00:28:01.220
being administered, where the Lord's Supper was being administered, where the preaching of the
00:28:04.840
word was happening. They were actually in a separate wing of the church called children's
00:28:08.700
ministry, then middle school ministry, then high school ministry, all the way till they were 18.
00:28:12.120
and all the while not doing family worship in the home
00:28:40.680
So you can say, oh, see, unconditional election.
00:28:42.780
There are some kids who grew up in a Muslim home and God saved them.
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And there are some kids who grew up in a Christian home and God didn't save them.
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Well, that's where I want to pause for a moment and say, did they really grow up in a Christian
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The parents might be Christians, but was it a Christian home?
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There's the difference between unconditional election and arbitrary election.
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So all that being said, my point is, as a Baptist, I don't believe that my children
00:29:15.060
I do, though, even as a Baptist, have the utmost eager and hopeful expectation that
00:29:21.340
my children are elect, and that it is simply a matter of when, not a matter of if, that
00:29:31.040
He is going to do so through my gospel preaching in the home.
00:29:35.200
not because my gospel preaching is a work that merits God's salvation for my kids,
00:29:42.120
but because God saves through means. And the same God who predestinated the salvation, the end,
00:29:48.900
the salvation of my children, also in his grace predestinated the means that they would be in a
00:29:55.100
Christian home with a father who regularly preaches the gospel. And all of that, both the
00:30:00.300
end, my children's salvation, and the means, my diligence to lead my family in worship and in the
00:30:07.740
Christian worldview in the gospel, all that being grace. What I do in preaching the gospel in our
00:30:13.300
home is only because God sovereignly ordained that it would happen by his grace. So it's not
00:30:18.220
my works earning something. It's God's determinative ends of grace coming about by his
00:30:25.160
determinative means of grace. Unconditional election, yes. Arbitrary election, no. Okay,
00:30:32.000
so back to Jason Farley. What I would say is this. I can make the same argument
00:30:38.340
as a Baptist towards the paedo-Baptist. It goes a little something like this. You've got parents
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who they claim that their child has an identity of being a part of the new covenant. They're a
00:30:50.340
new covenant child. Now, as a Baptist, as I've thoroughly explained, I don't believe that they
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are a new covenant child because there's only one door and the door is not what parents you're born
00:30:59.340
to. The door to the new covenant is faith, is faith. So when a paedo-baptist baptizes their
00:31:05.980
child into the new covenant, I believe that that is not objectively occurring. They're saying it is,
00:31:13.160
they're calling their child a new covenant child, and they're giving to their child the new covenant
00:31:17.580
sign, the sign and seal of the new covenant, but they're not actually a new covenant child.
00:31:22.920
So how does that relate to transgenderism? I don't know. Have you watched the libs of TikTok
00:31:27.320
recently? Have you watched some of these progressive moms? It's usually the moms,
00:31:31.980
not the dads. The dad's still at fault. He's absent and apathetic, but these progressive,
00:31:38.000
crazy, liberal moms who have a child, a young child who has not made a decision that they want
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to transition in their gender, but they have this little four-year-old boy and this mom dresses the
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boy up in a dress and puts makeup on the boy and tells the boy that he's a girl, right? Well,
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maybe that's what led to transgenderism. And I can draw an argument from the pedo-baptist position
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for that. You see what I'm saying? Now, is my response to cross-politic and more particularly
00:32:12.100
Jason Farley to say, credo-baptist didn't cause transgenderism, pedo-baptist did. No,
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that's not my position. You know why? Because I'm not stupid. By the grace of God, only the grace
00:32:22.240
of God, I'm sure it left to myself. I'm plenty stupid, but by God's grace, I'm not stupid.
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Pado-baptism did not cause moms transing their kids. And credo-baptism did not cause adult males
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to identify internally as a female and then start wearing an outward dress. Neither of those
00:32:40.860
positions cause transgenderism. It's just a dumb argument. It's dumb. However, in cross-politics
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clarification now, so not the original episode where Jason Farley made his comment that I think
00:32:54.860
was less than wise. I think it was foolish to make that comment. But to cross-politics credit,
00:32:59.880
they have followed up on social media, in their Twitter posts, but then also with some recordings
00:33:05.240
and clarified their position. And so I want to be fair to them and give their actual position.
00:33:10.860
And this is what they have said. They have said that you're right. It's not really the Baptist
00:33:15.680
position, credo or pedo. That's not what has caused this transgender movement in our pagan
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nation today. But there is something to be said for decisionism, revivalism, Charles Finney.
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Some of these heretical Christian ideas, Charles Finney was a heretic, by the way,
00:33:38.260
you can read his systematic theology. First Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, good. Second Great
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Awakening with Charles Finney, bad. And I do think that Charles Finney and his bad theology, Charles
00:33:51.640
Finney, that's where we get the altar call from, right? So if you grew up in a church, you know,
00:33:56.080
Baptist church or Presbyterian, but let's be honest, it probably would be Baptist. And I think
00:34:00.020
this is what Jason Farley is trying to say, although I think he said it poorly. But Baptist
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churches that would have an altar call. You know, like right now, who wants to give their life to
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Christ? Who wants to make a decision to follow Jesus, to become a new creation, to transition
00:34:15.220
in your identity? I see that hand, brother. Come on down the aisle. We're going to pray for you,
00:34:19.960
and you're going to sign a little piece of paper. And Billy Graham, all the Billy Graham crusades.
00:34:25.720
Billy Graham, there was some good, but there was also some bad. And some of the bad in Billy Graham
00:34:44.760
Charles Finney believed that revival was a work of man
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Charles Finney said that man can orchestrate revival
00:35:00.480
What do you mean? You don't have a revival service. You just live the Christian life and God either pours out revival or he doesn't. But you can't predict. I mean, that's as silly as some dispensational premillennialist trying to predict the return of Christ and date the return of Christ. You can't date a revival. You can't say, you know, three weeks from now in our tent meeting, God's going to send revival because A plus B plus C equals revival.
00:35:28.540
And so we're going to do this and we're going to do that and blah, blah, blah.
00:35:35.140
This decisionism, the idea of it's less of the object of our faith that saves and more
00:35:49.220
Somebody who just grew up in the church and doesn't remember a time of rebelling against
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Like David said, from my mother's breast, I trust you.
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or Polycarp, the disciple of John, 86 years have I served you. And every biblical commentator says
00:36:01.720
he was only 86 years old. So he's just saying, I never remember a time that I didn't serve the
00:36:06.080
Lord Jesus Christ. That testimony, Charles Finney abhorred. He abhorred. Instead, what you want is
00:36:12.680
you want the testimony of a radical transition, just like transgenderism. A guy is wearing a
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three piece suit one day. Uh, and the next day he walks in in a sundress with a purse and lipstick,
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right? Uh, night today, right? That's the kind of testimony that you want. Um, and, and so it's,
00:36:35.620
it's this inward, uh, decision. It's all about sincerity. How sincere were you? It's, it's
00:36:41.800
emotionalism, decisionism, revivalism, um, that kind of thing. Now did that, did that idea have
00:36:51.880
something to do? Not the primary cause or the only cause, but is it a cause of this inward
00:37:00.560
identity conversation that is going on in our nation that thinks that truth is subjective,
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that you could have your truth rather than transcendent universal truth, which plays
00:37:11.440
into transgenderism directly? Can we correlate all of that? I think we can. I think there's a
00:37:18.340
point there. I think we can. And is it fair to say that Charles Finney has gotten a lot more playtime
00:37:24.200
from the Baptist than the Presbyterians? That also we can say. But it's not credo-baptism.
00:37:31.280
It's not the Baptist embrace of the credo-baptist position. It's the Baptist compromise and sad
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embrace of Arminianism, of Arminianism, that it's all about an individual's decision. Make a
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decision for Christ. Choose this day whom you will serve. You make an inward decision to shift
00:37:55.840
inwardly in your identity from an enemy of God to a child of God, and then outwardly we'll do
00:38:02.820
a demonstration that reflects that inward decision, namely baptism. That is not so much
00:38:12.520
about credo versus paedobaptism and when the signs and seals should be administered of the
00:38:18.000
new covenant. It has far more to do with simply the doctrines of grace and when a person becomes
00:38:23.140
a Christian and how a person becomes a Christian. Is it a choice of God or is it a choice of man?
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Is it a work of God or is it a work of man? Is it monergism that God reaches down and saves and
00:38:37.500
God alone? It's all of grace. God gets all the glory because God does all the work. Or is it
00:38:42.160
Pelagianism, man reaching up? Or is it a mixture of both, synergism, right? I think that is the
00:38:50.520
underlining issue. And that is not a Paedo or Credo Baptist issue. That is a salvation issue.
00:38:59.940
Not a debate between the Paedo and Credo Baptist positions, but a debate between Pelagianism
00:39:06.240
and monergism and also synergism and monergism. So that's, it's not a Baptist Presbyterian
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conversation. I think that's silly, but there is something to be said for an Arminian
00:39:19.980
Calvinist conversation. How much weight does an individual have for determining their identity
00:39:27.540
through their own personal choice? There is something to be said for that. And it is true
00:39:34.120
that Baptists embraced Arminianism in a way that Presbyterians did not. And yet, here's the irony
00:39:40.080
though. Here's the irony. The PCA still has Revoice. And I'm not sure if you guys remember
00:39:48.960
this one, but remember the PCUSA? They're gay. They're all about transgenderism. And they're
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00:39:58.660
not Baptist. That's a Presbyterian group. Now they've denied the faith. They've gone apostate.
00:40:04.780
So, I mean, really they're a pagan group, but they came from Presbyterianism, right? So,
00:40:09.580
so I can show anecdotal evidence on, on either side, but really if I'm, if I'm just, if I'm just
00:40:15.440
trying to straw man and make an argument, I can come up with more anecdotal evidence, at least
00:40:20.020
recently from Presbyterians embracing LGBT stuff than I can Baptist. Now that said, I can come
00:40:28.640
come up with more evidence of Baptists embracing critical race theory than I can Presbyterians.
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In a nutshell, you could say the SBC, Resolution 9. The SBC is racist and the PCA is gay.
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But that's a huge generalization that's not particularly helpful. There's a ton of PCA
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guys who would say, we hate revoice. And there's a ton of guy, well, about half of the SBC guys
00:40:54.440
he would say, we hate critical race theory and resolution nine. Okay. So my, my point in all
00:41:00.120
that is to say, I don't think it's credo or pedo baptism that is a cause of transgenderism,
00:41:06.140
but I do think that, that deeper than baptism, the signs and seals, salvation itself,
00:41:12.000
soteriology itself, how does God save? Is it something that man chooses or is it something
00:41:17.660
that God sovereignly ordains? I think that that does have a role in, in the way that we view
00:41:23.820
a person's identity, um, what, what level of, of free will and choice a person has,
00:41:30.480
uh, the nature of truth, our epistemology, these kinds, and that does play in to this new crazy,
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you know, live your truth, transgender LGBT kind of thing. So those are my thoughts
1.00
00:41:43.600
on cross politic. And, um, and that being said, I think, I don't think they worded it quite like
00:41:50.660
I did. Um, and I like to think that I worded it better, but a cross politic has come out and
00:41:57.000
clarified after the fact saying, yeah, it's, it's less to do with baptism and, uh, and it's more to
00:42:03.660
do with what I've just articulated decisionism, revivalism. Um, this, you know, man is the master
00:42:10.080
of his own fate. Um, that, that epistemology, um, has far more to do, uh, with our current cultural
00:42:18.860
moment and it's insanity versus the timing of the signs and seals of baptism and when they're
00:42:26.360
applied. So cross-pology, everything that I just said, if they listened to this, I was, you know,
00:42:30.320
I texted them this morning and let them know that I appreciate them and that I love them. I'm praying
00:42:36.640
for them. If they do end up listening to this, I think that they would agree with, you know, 98%
00:42:41.320
of the stuff I said, other than the stuff that I said that was explicitly Baptist because they're
00:42:46.080
not Baptist and they think I'm wrong about that. But in terms of what's, what they actually meant,
00:42:51.400
I think what they meant was decisionism, um, not, not credo baptism that said, um, then it would
00:42:59.540
help next time brothers, if you say it that way. And I know it was your guest. Um, but you know,
00:43:06.120
even that that's kind of, it's the pros and cons, right? The pros of having four guys at a table
00:43:10.740
together at the same time is you get rowdy fight, laugh, feast Christianity, which we need. We need
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a masculine rough and tumble. We're going to spar with each other kind of Christianity. And we need
1.00
00:43:21.260
that. Um, but that's the pro the con is, um, that, that sometimes you have to put out some fires
00:43:28.660
because as we're doing the rough and tumble, you know, sparring with our rowdy fight, laugh,
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feast Christianity, sometimes, you know, somebody accidentally gets an elbow to the eye. And right
00:43:38.160
now, a bunch of Baptists feel like they got a black eye from cross politic and they're upset.
00:43:42.960
So I guess the very last thing I'll say is this to my Baptist brothers and sisters,
00:43:46.860
as we're talking about transgenderism and the whole world becoming gay, let me just give you
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a pastoral charge. You also don't be gay. Don't be so effeminate. Don't. Just get over it. It's
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not what they meant. They have clarified. Um, I'm sure they could apologize better. I'm sure
00:44:11.340
their clarifications could use clarifications. Um, but these are good guys. And, and right now
00:44:17.540
what we have going on is a very unique moment where we're finally after decades, I mean,
00:44:25.340
it's been decades after decades, we have some reformed Christians, um, who want to apply
00:44:32.740
their theology. Not just progressives like Tim Keller, and not just pietists like Westminster
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Escondido, but guys who actually have faithful theology, but also don't want to be pietists and
00:44:45.600
have a privatized lordship of Christ, just, you know, Christianity for the home and the church.
00:44:49.920
But no, they actually want to apply all of Christ to all of life. They actually want to have
00:44:53.820
Christian political understanding, like a doctrine of Christian politics, a doctrine of Christian
00:44:59.800
economics. They want to take faith, the Christian faith into the public square and actually disciple
00:45:06.500
not just individuals privately, but nations publicly. I think that's a good thing. I'm on
00:45:13.900
that team. There's a lot of splinters and subdivisions on this team. I'm not federal
00:45:19.580
vision. I'm not Presbyterian. I have plenty of disagreements. So there are different spots
00:45:25.140
on this team. We're not all aligned with everything, but the broad team right now,
00:45:31.800
it's not a Presbyterian team. It's not a Baptist team. Presbyterians want to say you can only be
00:45:36.820
on this team. Like if you were consistent, you know, you would see that a Westminster view of
00:45:41.300
the covenants is absolutely necessary for theonomic thought and blah, blah, blah. I get it. I understand
00:45:45.600
what you're saying. I've looked into it. I'm not persuaded. Okay. But here I am. You may think I'm
00:45:50.900
being inconsistent, but okay, like let's view it through your lens. Here I am inconsistent
00:45:56.620
in, in, in my, my foundational doctrines, but, but in my life, I want to be obedient to Christ
00:46:03.380
in every single realm of society. Will you have me on the team? I think the team's too small to
00:46:10.200
say, no, I think you want me on the team. And, and you just made fun of me and every other Baptist,
00:46:17.140
but i'm not effeminate and gay i'm a man i can handle it and the team's too small i think i
00:46:25.440
still want you on the team you you helped me get on this team i learned a ton from you and i'm not
00:46:30.700
gonna i'm not gonna be so sensitive so we're a small team guys the the team of the team of all
00:46:38.440
of christ for all of life the team that wants to have public theology that wants to disciple
00:46:43.920
nations and the team that believes we can be successful, that the great commission will work
00:46:48.240
this theonomic post-millennial reformed team. A lot of people don't like it. They're not on the
00:46:54.460
team. That's fine. And they think our team is horrible, blah, blah, blah. You know, time will
00:46:59.260
tell. But for those who are on the team who are like, yes, reformed, yes, post-millennial, yes,
00:47:05.000
theonomic, all of Christ for all of life. Yeah. There's a sliding scale of how theonomic. And I
00:47:09.180
I get that general equity all the way to Rush Dooney, but in general, I'm on this team of,
00:47:14.180
I want to apply all of Christ to all of life. And I think we can be successful
00:47:17.300
post-millennial and I'm reformed, deeply reformed and covenantal. This team is a good team
00:47:23.380
and it's a small team. And I think the devil would love for this small, but very needed team
00:47:33.720
to have a civil war and to be at each other's throats.
00:47:38.800
So as Doug Wilson would say, don't take the bait.
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Our next Right Response Conference is in the works.
00:48:30.660
If you want to find out dates and location and registration and anything else, go and
00:48:36.860
visit our website, rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com.