The NXR Podcast - BONUS - What Are Your Thoughts On CrossPolitic’s Statement About Baptists & Transgenderism？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.000 All right, welcome back to another weekly live Q&A with myself, Pastor Joel, with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:24.880 We do this every Monday afternoon at 12 p.m. Central Time.

00:00:29.540 We've missed a couple because of federal holidays and certain things going on, but we try to

00:00:34.120 be as consistent as we can every Monday at 12 p.m. Central Time, a live Q&A session with

00:00:41.000 yours truly, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:44.080 So today, I wanted to start off, and we'll see how much time we have to get to other

00:00:48.040 things, but I wanted to start off with some of the controversy that's been unfolding on

00:00:53.300 social media, especially Twitter, which is constructed deliberately to kind of foster

00:00:58.400 a little smart aleck quips and things like that. So Twitter certainly breeds controversy and

00:01:03.820 conflict and those kinds of things. But the controversy surrounding CrossPolitik,

00:01:09.720 CrossPolitik, for some of you guys who are not aware, they are a podcast out of Moscow, Idaho.

00:01:18.020 Toby Sumter, for a long time, he's one of the hosts. There's three of them. Toby Sumter,

00:01:22.980 for a long time, he was a pastor with Douglas Wilson at Christchurch. He's now

00:01:27.460 a senior pastor of a church plant. I believe it's King's Crown or something like that. Does

00:01:34.320 that sound right, Nathan? I think it's King's Crown Church. If it's not King's Crown, it should

00:01:40.660 be because that's a great name. But King's Crown Church, Toby Sumter is the lead pastor, senior

00:01:46.880 pastor there. They also have David Shannon. He goes by the moniker Chocolate Knox. And then they

00:01:53.020 also have as their third host, Gabriel Wrench, who goes by the moniker Waterboy. That's because

00:01:58.940 he's a deacon at Christ Church. And so it's kind of just a tongue in cheek playing around with him

00:02:04.300 because he's a deacon. So anyways, CrossPolitik is a great podcast. It really is. They have a lot

00:02:10.600 of really good things. There's certain things that I don't always like, because there's really

00:02:15.760 no podcast that I perfectly like, including my own. I go back and listen to some of the things

00:02:20.520 that I've done, and I think, oh, man, I wish I had done that differently, or I wish I had done

00:02:23.860 that better. One of the challenges, I think, of cross-politic, just practically speaking for a

00:02:29.300 moment in terms of their format, is that it's three guys. And so, you know, with Right Response

00:02:34.700 Ministries, we have kind of our flagship show that's called Theology Applied. It airs on

00:02:39.760 Tuesdays. And in that show, I have a guest always that joins me, somebody that I respect and

00:02:48.360 somebody that I would have at least some measure of theological agreement with, somebody who is

00:02:52.640 an Orthodox Christian and who has some expertise in a particular field, whatever subject we happen

00:02:59.780 to be talking about in that episode. And in those episodes, even just with one other person,

00:03:05.800 one other guest, it's easy to say things because you're going back and forth. You're having a good

00:03:11.780 time. You're enjoying one another and the conversation that's unfolding. And you can say

00:03:16.060 something that if you were just speaking solo, you probably would have said more thoroughly.

00:03:22.360 You would have offered more disclaimers, more clarity surrounding a particular statement

00:03:27.340 where people would probably get the information better. But when you're doing a discussion,

00:03:35.240 especially if it's the cross-politic guys, they're having a really good time on their show.

00:03:40.180 They're laughing, they're joking, and they're saying things that are really, I think,

00:03:43.620 much of what they say is true and profound and helpful. But even when they say things

00:03:48.600 well, I often find myself wishing that they would have slowed down and just one guy talk

00:03:54.600 for a little while, you know, and flesh that thought out a little bit more. So my point

00:03:59.580 is it's hard when you're being interrupted, when you're interrupting one another, sometimes

00:04:05.720 clarity falls to the wayside. And so the particular comment that was made was made by one of their

00:04:12.360 guest and he's on the Fight Laugh Feast network. The Fight Laugh Feast network is kind of the host

00:04:16.560 of CrossPolitik and the CrossPolitik show is their flagship show. Those are the guys who started

00:04:22.040 Fight Laugh Feast. But Fight Laugh Feast has multiple podcast contributors and authors of

00:04:27.400 blogs and they hold an annual Fight Laugh Feast conference. And so they had one of their Fight

00:04:32.520 Laugh Feast fellows, for lack of a better term, I'm not sure what they call them, but Fight Laugh

00:04:37.440 Feast podcast host, Jason Farley is his name. And he came on the show as a special guest in a

00:04:45.000 particular cross-politic episode. And he made a comment about credo-baptist theology. They were

00:04:50.860 talking about, you know, these guys are Presbyterians and so they're pedo-baptist,

00:04:54.980 infant baptism. And so they were talking about the credo-baptist position, a believer's baptism,

00:05:00.980 baptism following faith, an incredible profession of faith being made by the individual who's being

00:05:07.380 baptized. And Jason Farley likened it to the transgender movement. And Gabe actually paused

00:05:16.300 for a second and said, did you just say that, I can't remember exactly how Gabe worded, but he

00:05:22.120 said, did you just say that the Credo Baptist position is similar to transgenderism? And Jason

00:05:30.320 Farley doubled down and said, I didn't say it's similar. I said it caused it. And so he had a

00:05:36.840 chance right there. He had an opportunity to kind of clarify or backpedal a little bit,

00:05:42.140 go a little bit softer, but he leaned in and actually said that the Credo Baptist position,

00:05:48.260 a believer's baptism, that doctrine and that viewpoint is the cause of the transgender

00:05:55.260 movement that we find in our pagan culture today. All right. So I'll give you my thoughts on it, 1.00

00:06:00.760 but first let's play a game. Okay. Let's play a game. So a believer's baptism,

00:06:07.040 credo Baptist position that there needs to be faith preceding baptism, that we're not baptizing

00:06:13.740 someone into the new covenant. And then later trusting that they're going to, um, to become

00:06:19.580 internal members of the covenant. They're externally members of the new covenant,

00:06:23.420 receiving external promises and blessings, but they have to internally, um, actually,

00:06:28.960 actually lay hold of those promises through faith. And that will come after it'll, it'll be

00:06:35.420 a post experience. So it's baptism first and then, and then faith following baptism. Well,

00:06:40.500 the believer's baptism, credo Baptist position is the opposite, that faith comes first, that faith

00:06:46.060 is the door into the new covenant. So there aren't two tiers of new covenant people with external new

00:06:51.600 covenant people and internal new covenant people. There's just one new covenant people and the door

00:06:56.740 is faith so how do you get into the new covenant well by virtue of being in the new covenant you

00:07:03.060 have union with christ by the spirit and the door to union with christ being a recipient of the new

00:07:12.140 covenant is faith that christ is the mediator of the new covenant all of its blessings all of its

00:07:18.220 promises and christ mediates this new covenant by his blood so i am a baptist i i agree with

00:07:26.460 Presbyterians on many things. I frequently upset my Baptist brothers. They feel like I'm too close

00:07:33.300 to being a Presbyterian. But the reason why I am still a Baptist, and as far as I can tell,

00:07:37.600 unless God does something radical and changes my mind, I will always be a Baptist, live a Baptist,

00:07:42.780 die a Baptist, is because, well, for one, because I'm a Calvinist. Okay, and let me clarify that.

00:07:49.380 This is why it's helpful to have a solo show, because Presbyterians are Calvinist. They are

00:07:55.080 reformed in terms of the doctrines of grace, their view of soteriology, all those kinds of things.

00:08:00.740 But my understanding, I should specify, my understanding of Calvinism, particularly as

00:08:06.360 it pertains to the third point on the tulip, limited atonement, or maybe better put, definite

00:08:12.240 atonement, meaning that Jesus died for a definitive group of people. It's not a universal

00:08:17.880 work at Calvary. But rather, no, Jesus did not die for each and every individual. But as the

00:08:26.340 good shepherd, John chapter 10, the shepherd lays his life down for the sheep. And not everybody

00:08:31.340 is a sheep. We know that at the end, he will separate the sheep from the goats. And we also

00:08:36.720 have wolves in sheep's clothing that are not sheep. They are ravenous wolves. And so the Bible

00:08:42.020 paints this picture with multiple players on the board. There are sheep, there are goats,

00:08:46.580 There are wolves, there are under shepherds that are also sheep, but there are also elders

00:08:51.360 and leaders in the local church, under shepherds, the chief shepherd being Christ.

00:08:55.240 Not everybody's a sheep.

00:08:56.480 And John chapter 10 says that Jesus, he lays his life down.

00:08:59.740 The good shepherd gives his life, not for sheep and goats and wolves and any other animal

00:09:05.840 that might be on the field, but he actually lays his life down, particularly for the sheep.

00:09:10.560 And so because of my affirmation of limited atonement, I believe that Jesus died to purchase

00:09:18.060 not just salvation, but all the benefits and the promises that accompany salvation, all

00:09:24.000 the promises of the new covenant, meaning that Jesus didn't just die so that you could

00:09:28.220 go to heaven to atone for the wrath of God.

00:09:31.000 He did that.

00:09:32.220 But in so doing, what that includes is that Jesus died to purchase your regenerate heart.

00:09:37.780 He died to purchase for you the gifts, they are not works of men, we don't conjure these

00:09:42.960 things up, but the gifts of faith and repentance.

00:09:46.260 Jesus died not just for your justification, but to purchase the work of the Spirit in

00:09:51.180 your life from justification in the realm of sanctification.

00:09:55.840 Jesus died to purchase even in glorification your new resurrected and glorified body that

00:10:01.880 we will one day possess with God in eternity.

00:10:05.180 Jesus died to purchase all these things. So the Arminian believes that Jesus died. His death is

00:10:11.540 universal and what it purchases is a universal potential of salvation. Jesus died to purchase

00:10:19.080 the possibility of salvation for all. The Calvinist believes Jesus died to purchase the actuality of

00:10:27.500 salvation for some. So Jesus did not die to purchase the possibility or the offer of salvation

00:10:34.340 for all, but he actually died to purchase the guarantee of salvation for a specific list of

00:10:43.080 names for the new covenant people. And he is mediating all the promises of the new covenant,

00:10:48.920 which just to list a few, we already said regeneration and faith and repentance, but

00:10:52.620 to put this in scriptural terms, some of the prophecies that we have from Jeremiah or Ezekiel,

00:10:58.900 as it says, I will remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. So that's

00:11:04.080 speaking of regeneration, a heart of flesh that is softened and malleable and receptive

00:11:08.180 to God's word and God's commands and God's truth, his gospel.

00:11:13.500 But furthermore, we see that, you know, under the old covenant, we had the Ten Commandments,

00:11:18.100 they were written on tablets of stone. 0.96

00:11:19.700 And we can also argue because we know that even in Gentile nations before the coming 0.72

00:11:24.060 of Christ, the Ten Commandments, God's moral law was written not just on tablets of stone, 0.84

00:11:28.320 but on the hearts of men.

00:11:30.280 but the new covenant takes it further and says, I will write my law on your hearts and I will cause

00:11:37.200 you to walk in my ways. So not just that you will have an external and even internal sense of God's

00:11:43.880 moral law, the 10 commandments written on your heart, but I will cause you to obey that law. I

00:11:49.240 will cause you to walk in my commandments. Or another one is I will put the fear of myself

00:11:56.460 within you, within you. We see Israel, you know, surrounding Mount Sinai when God gives his law

00:12:04.360 to Moses on tablets of stone and the mountain trembles and it shakes and there are flashes

00:12:11.240 of lightning and thunder and smoke and the people are trembling, the people are afraid.

00:12:16.680 But the difference in the new covenant versus the old covenant is that God promises not just

00:12:21.720 externally, externally to do great and marvelous things like the parting of the Red Sea or the 0.54

00:12:28.020 angel of death, killing the firstborn in Egypt. These are fearful things, but in the new covenant,

00:12:33.560 God says, I will put the fear of myself within you. I am going to guarantee that my people

00:12:40.320 fear me. I'm going to guarantee, I'm not just going to write my law on tablets of stone. It's

00:12:44.940 going to be in your heart, but furthermore, furthermore, I'm going to cause you to walk in

00:12:49.400 all my ways. These are the benefits, as scripture lays it out, of the new covenant. Now, Jesus is

00:12:56.720 the mediator. He purchases the new covenant. We might say it like this. This is what Hebrews

00:13:01.400 teaches. Jesus purchases the new covenant by his death, right? So Jesus, his sinless life,

00:13:08.900 fulfilling all righteousness, his life on earth, his earthly ministry, and obeying all the law of

00:13:13.620 God. I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So Jesus, he didn't just avoid sin.

00:13:18.600 And it's not just mere innocence, but an act of presence of righteousness.

00:13:22.600 This is the act of obedience of Christ in his substitutionary life, right?

00:13:26.940 Because Jesus didn't just die in our place.

00:13:28.500 He lived in our place in his substitutionary life through his act of obedience and fulfillment

00:13:33.400 of all righteousness.

00:13:35.020 And in addition to that, his substitutionary death, absorbing the wrath of God for the

00:13:40.640 sheep, for his people.

00:13:41.780 In these ways, Jesus, he purchased the new covenant and all its promises.

00:13:47.840 But the Bible goes further.

00:13:49.020 Jesus did not merely purchase the new covenant, but he rose from the dead bodily on the third

00:13:54.800 day and not only rose from the dead, but then ascended to heaven at the right hand of the

00:14:00.260 father where he is interceding on our behalf.

00:14:02.920 We have an advocate, a helper who is with us, namely the Holy Spirit sent by the father

00:14:08.460 and the son.

00:14:09.140 But we have actually in Christian thought, two advocates.

00:14:12.000 We have one that is with us, namely the Holy Spirit sent by the father and the son, but

00:14:16.780 another advocate who is with the Father, and that is the righteous, the God-man, Christ Jesus at the

00:14:23.500 right hand of the Father. So Jesus lived and died to purchase the new covenant, but he rose and

00:14:29.920 ascended and lives forevermore at the right hand of the Father to mediate the new covenant, right?

00:14:35.980 So think of it like UPS, like a package delivery. Somebody could buy a certain item for you,

00:14:43.000 But it's another step for them to say, I'm going to purchase this item for you on some

00:14:49.280 online store, but then I'm also personally, to ensure it doesn't get lost in the mail

00:14:54.700 with all the shipping chaos, thanks to Joe Biden, I'm not just going to buy this item

00:15:00.360 for you, purchase this item for you, but I'm personally going to deliver it.

00:15:04.920 Jesus, by his life, namely his act of obedience, his substitutionary life, and his substitutionary

00:15:11.480 death, in those ways, his life and death, he purchases the new covenant and all its promises

00:15:17.580 for his people. But in his resurrection and ascension and living forevermore as a high priest

00:15:23.780 forever in the order of Melchizedek, priest and king, Jesus is not merely purchasing the new

00:15:31.480 covenant, but he is ensuring that he personally will administer the new covenant. He will mediate

00:15:37.300 it. He will deliver the new covenant. So he bought it and he's also the delivery man who is going to

00:15:44.420 deliver the new covenant so that he ensures that not one person misses it. And so I say all that

00:15:51.540 to say the reason why I'm a Baptist is because the same Jesus who dies for a particular group

00:15:59.280 of people, limited atonement, definite atonement, is the same Jesus who mediates that new covenant.

00:16:05.760 He doesn't just purchase it in his limited atonement death, but he mediates the new covenant

00:16:11.260 in his intercessory role at the right hand of the father.

00:16:16.000 And so for me, the idea that somebody could be in the new covenant that Jesus didn't actually

00:16:21.420 die for.

00:16:22.540 So Jesus purchases the new covenant for this many people. 0.99

00:16:26.140 This is the decretal elect, if we want to use those terms, people who will actually 0.97

00:16:30.380 inherit salvation, those who will actually be regenerate at some point.

00:16:34.660 the decretal elect, the new covenant people 2.0, these are the ones that Jesus died for. And he

00:16:42.060 didn't die for anyone outside of that. If you deny that, then you're not a Calvinist and

00:16:45.980 Presbyterians can't deny that and won't deny that because they are reformed. And so you have the

00:16:50.280 decretal elect, those that Jesus died for, those that Jesus purchased by his death, the new covenant 0.87

00:16:56.500 for. But then you have a wider spectrum of new covenant people that Jesus is mediating the new 0.70

00:17:02.380 covenant for. And that's what I struggle with. Jesus mediates the promises of the new covenant

00:17:07.360 by his blood, the very same blood that he only shed for one group of people, namely those who

00:17:13.820 will be regenerate. So I don't see one circle, a tighter circle of decreed elect, and then a wider

00:17:18.880 circle. I just see one circle and the door in is not baptism. The door in is faith. And then

00:17:25.440 baptism quickly should follow in obedience to that faith. So there you have it. That's my Baptist

00:17:31.100 card. For anybody who's wondering, is Joel going to become a Presbyterian one day? I don't know

00:17:34.540 what God's going to do. But as far as I can tell from the scripture, no, I have no plans of, you

00:17:39.440 know, changing in my Baptist card for a Presbyterian card. And that doesn't even get into the issue of

00:17:44.360 polity. In some ways, I'm even more convictionally persuaded of the Baptist polity, congregational

00:17:51.780 polity. So I am thoroughly 1689. So I say all that to say this, all right, now understanding

00:17:56.940 that, you know, the new covenant and covenant theology, Westminster covenant, covenantalism,

00:18:02.840 federalism from, you know, from the Presbyterian side of the aisle, and then understanding the

00:18:07.560 Baptist working of that. Now let's play a game. All right. So the game goes like this.

00:18:12.800 Jason Farley says that the Credo Baptist position is the cause of transgenderism. Essentially what

00:18:20.460 he's saying is this, that a grown adult or a teenager or, but you know, somebody who knows

00:18:26.680 what they're doing is it has the cognitive ability to make a decision, a decision. They

00:18:32.660 first make a decision about their internal identity. I have decided that internally I am

00:18:38.640 not lost. I am found. I am not dead. I am alive. I am not a pagan, an enemy of God, but rather I am

00:18:45.560 a friend of God. I'm an adopted son through Christ Jesus. I've made an internal decision,

00:18:52.440 a change, a transition about my internal identity. And then I'm going to perform some

00:18:59.020 outward manifestation, some outward demonstration that displays my inward identity shift. So I'm

00:19:08.980 making an inward decision to shift my identity, to transition my identity inwardly. And then I'm

00:19:15.640 going to now externally display that through baptism as a sign of faith, and this faith

00:19:23.780 being displayed through a credible profession of faith. I am following Jesus. And so Jason

00:19:32.500 Farley is saying that rhetoric, that doctrine, theology of a credo-baptist position, a believer's

00:19:40.000 baptism, says you make a decision, you wait till somebody's grown and cognitive, and then they

00:19:45.580 make a decision about their identity internally and then they do something externally to represent

00:19:51.440 that and isn't that just like transgenderism you decide on the inside if you're a man biologically 0.53

00:19:57.020 one day when you're older you decide on the inside that you're a woman trapped in a man's body and

00:20:03.000 then you do external things that try to line up with your internal transition in terms of your

00:20:08.420 personal identity like wearing a dress and wearing makeup or or getting surgery you know and those

00:20:15.360 kinds of things. That's Jason Farley's argument. I get the argument. Okay. And I'll come back to

00:20:20.200 that in a moment. I think it's dumb, but I think that there's also a lot that is true, but it has

00:20:27.200 nothing to do with baptism. So I'll come back to that in a moment. But the game that I'd like to 0.89

00:20:32.420 play is, all right, so you could say that grown adults in the pagan culture of America today

00:20:38.000 who transition and embrace the transgender movement. Grown men in our culture today who

00:20:45.100 eventually identify internally as women and then begin to outwardly manifest that internal 0.93

00:20:52.180 identity choice by wearing a dress is caused by the Credo Baptist position. Okay, well then can

00:20:59.040 we say, if we can do that, here's the game. Could we say, um, that, that, uh, two parents

00:21:06.140 who have a baby and the baby is not cognitive and not able to make, um, an assessment or a decision

00:21:14.680 about their identity. These two parents say to that baby, and they perform an outward sign,

00:21:20.440 namely a pedo baptism, an infant baptism, um, that says this baby has, uh, the identity of being

00:21:28.160 a new covenant child. Now, again, I'm a Baptist. Okay. So hear me out. Um, in my Baptist theology

00:21:34.560 as a credo Baptist, um, I think Presbyterians are wrong. So I think that when they say that

00:21:39.740 their child is in the new covenant and not just a seven year old child who may have professed faith

00:21:44.840 in Jesus and may truly be regenerate and born again, but no, a, a, um, a three month old child

00:21:51.700 is now getting a baptism and being called, labeled, and externally receiving some kind

00:21:59.140 of external demonstration to line up with this, what they see as a reality. They're saying this

00:22:04.260 is a new covenant child. Now as a Baptist, I'm going to say, no, the only door into the new

00:22:11.820 covenant is faith. And I do believe that God's promises are for us and our children. I'm not a

00:22:19.300 dispensationalist. I have a 1689 federalism, a view of a reformed particular Baptist view of

00:22:25.440 the covenant. So I would hold to covenant theology, not the Westminster expression,

00:22:30.520 but I'm certainly not a dispensationalist. So I do believe God has promises for our children.

00:22:34.800 You guys have heard me say, and it was controversial and lots of my Baptist brothers

00:22:38.140 disagree with me, but I do believe even that my children, I believe it is 100% God's intention

00:22:45.440 to save my kids. But I'm not saying that my kids, that they come out of the womb regenerate.

00:22:51.700 I'm not saying that. And with God saving my kids, one of the big reasons why I say that,

00:22:56.740 just for the record, is because I believe in unconditional election, but not arbitrary

00:23:00.900 election. And I think Baptists make this mistake. Let me say that again, because you guys probably, 1.00

00:23:06.360 you probably missed that. And I think that there's something here, and we Baptists need to hear.

00:23:11.540 We need to understand this point.

00:23:13.640 There is a distinction between unconditional election and arbitrary election.

00:23:19.040 And what I mean by that is that if we are truly reformed in our view of salvation,

00:23:23.640 if we are truly Calvinist, then we cannot sever God's predestinated ends from his predestinated

00:23:29.980 means.

00:23:31.160 And the Bible clearly shows that there are means of grace.

00:23:34.660 There is a means of how God saves people, meaning God saves people unconditionally.

00:23:39.480 Yes.

00:23:40.280 Yes.

00:23:40.620 but God does not save people arbitrarily. All right. So God saves through means. And one of

00:23:47.660 the primary means we see in Romans chapter 10, how will they believe unless they hear? And how

00:23:52.580 will they hear unless someone is preaching to them? And how will they preach unless they are

00:23:56.720 sent? And as it is written, blessed are the feet that bring good news. What we see in scripture

00:24:02.500 and what we see in experience is that God saves people unconditionally, but not arbitrarily. He

00:24:08.880 saves people who have been under preaching of the gospel. Now, it's true that there are certain

00:24:15.220 times where God in his mercy and grace may save an individual who only hears the preaching of

00:24:21.440 the gospel once, but God never saves any individuals apart from the preaching of the

00:24:27.720 gospel. It is the power of God for salvation. That's Romans 1 16, right? We all should be able

00:24:34.220 to agree on this. So my position of being hopeful for my children, not believing that my children

00:24:40.140 are born regenerate, but believing that my children are elect and that it is not a matter of if so

00:24:47.140 much as it is a matter of simply when. Believing 100% that my children, it is the full intention

00:24:53.840 of God to save my children. Some Baptists, they operate in, and I'm talking about Calvinistic 0.53

00:24:59.640 Baptists, they operate in this kind of position of fear. God may save my kids and he may not.

00:25:05.580 My kids don't really stand any more chance of being saved than the Muslim kids in some 1.00

00:25:11.660 Islamic nation. And I say, no, that's not, no. No, I disagree with that because God's salvation 1.00

00:25:18.820 is unconditional, but it is not arbitrary. God saves through the hearing and for them to hear

00:25:26.680 the preaching of his word. Meaning what? It means, it means this. It means that if you are

00:25:34.060 Christian parents and you, by God's grace, it's not your works, God doing this through you, 0.89

00:25:39.380 his work in and through you, but by God's grace, if you saturate your home with the preaching of

00:25:44.520 the gospel and catechizing your children and family worship, our family, you guys have heard

00:25:50.700 me talk about family worship. We do about 30 minutes of family worship in the morning and

00:25:54.620 about 30 minutes of family worship in the evening. My children, my three-year-old has more scripture

00:26:00.900 memorized than most Christian adults that I know. We are working through catechisms. We're working

00:26:05.940 through the Bible. And right there, you're going to say, that's not unconditional election, Joel.

00:26:09.400 You're saying that you can earn the salvation of your children by your good works of Christian

00:26:13.960 parenting. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm saying that yes, unconditional election, no, arbitrary 0.96

00:26:21.400 election. When a person is submersed in the preaching of the word, Romans 10, how will they

00:26:27.280 believe unless they hear? Well, one surefire way to get to hell is to never hear the gospel.

00:26:34.380 Now, if someone does hear the gospel, it's not a one-to-one ratio. Those who don't hear the

00:26:39.640 gospel always go to hell. Those who do hear the gospel sometimes go to heaven. But there is a

00:26:46.520 biblical principle to say that for those who hear the gospel truly, faithfully, regularly,

00:26:53.220 and who are preserved and protected by the grace of God through good parenting from

00:26:58.920 hearing anti-gospels, enemies of the gospel, right? I think there's a lot of Baptist parents

00:27:04.580 who, the reason why they've hopped so on board with this idea of our kids don't stand any more 0.98

00:27:09.380 chance of being saved by God than a pagan family's kids on the other side of the world. You know why 0.99

00:27:16.440 Baptists have embraced that? I'm just going to be real. I think they've embraced it because most 0.79

00:27:21.420 Baptist parents and Presbyterians for that matter, over the last multiple decades, sent their kids

00:27:27.560 to public school. And they can't bear the thought that their kids grew up and ultimately denied the

00:27:33.780 faith and that it might be their fault. Because they want to say, we preach the gospel in our

00:27:38.940 home. We raised our kids right. We were Christian. Did you? Did you have a nightly and every

00:27:46.240 morning? Did you have daily family worship in your home? No, but we took them to church. Did you?

00:27:51.020 Or did you send them to a room next to church called children's ministry? And they were in a

00:27:57.640 separate room and actually never attended the church where the ordinary means of grace were

00:28:01.220 being administered, where the Lord's Supper was being administered, where the preaching of the

00:28:04.840 word was happening. They were actually in a separate wing of the church called children's

00:28:08.700 ministry, then middle school ministry, then high school ministry, all the way till they were 18.

00:28:12.120 and all the while not doing family worship in the home

00:28:15.140 and sending them to public school,

00:28:17.280 which is public atheism.

00:28:18.600 They teach atheism as a worldview.

00:28:20.900 And then you sent them to a liberal college

00:28:23.420 and you're saying, you know what?

00:28:26.020 Unconditional election.

00:28:26.880 That's where I'm gonna hang my hat.

00:28:28.780 Praise God, I'm a Calvinist

00:28:29.840 so I can still sleep at night

00:28:31.140 and I don't actually have to deal

00:28:32.760 with the moral responsibility

00:28:34.400 of the fact that I led my own child to hell.

00:28:37.260 But you did.

00:28:39.120 You did.

00:28:40.680 So you can say, oh, see, unconditional election.

00:28:42.780 There are some kids who grew up in a Muslim home and God saved them.

00:28:46.600 Yes.

00:28:46.980 Amen.

00:28:47.460 Praise God. 0.99

00:28:48.480 And there are some kids who grew up in a Christian home and God didn't save them. 0.99

00:28:52.000 Well, that's where I want to pause for a moment and say, did they really grow up in a Christian 0.53

00:28:55.920 home?

00:28:57.480 The parents might be Christians, but was it a Christian home?

00:29:02.440 There's the difference between unconditional election and arbitrary election. 0.88

00:29:06.900 All right.

00:29:07.100 So all that being said, my point is, as a Baptist, I don't believe that my children

00:29:13.320 are born regenerate.

00:29:15.060 I do, though, even as a Baptist, have the utmost eager and hopeful expectation that

00:29:21.340 my children are elect, and that it is simply a matter of when, not a matter of if, that

00:29:25.960 God is going to save my children.

00:29:28.680 And he is not going to do so arbitrarily.

00:29:31.040 He is going to do so through my gospel preaching in the home.

00:29:35.200 not because my gospel preaching is a work that merits God's salvation for my kids,

00:29:42.120 but because God saves through means. And the same God who predestinated the salvation, the end,

00:29:48.900 the salvation of my children, also in his grace predestinated the means that they would be in a

00:29:55.100 Christian home with a father who regularly preaches the gospel. And all of that, both the

00:30:00.300 end, my children's salvation, and the means, my diligence to lead my family in worship and in the

00:30:07.740 Christian worldview in the gospel, all that being grace. What I do in preaching the gospel in our

00:30:13.300 home is only because God sovereignly ordained that it would happen by his grace. So it's not

00:30:18.220 my works earning something. It's God's determinative ends of grace coming about by his

00:30:25.160 determinative means of grace. Unconditional election, yes. Arbitrary election, no. Okay,

00:30:32.000 so back to Jason Farley. What I would say is this. I can make the same argument

00:30:38.340 as a Baptist towards the paedo-Baptist. It goes a little something like this. You've got parents 1.00

00:30:45.120 who they claim that their child has an identity of being a part of the new covenant. They're a

00:30:50.340 new covenant child. Now, as a Baptist, as I've thoroughly explained, I don't believe that they 1.00

00:30:54.700 are a new covenant child because there's only one door and the door is not what parents you're born

00:30:59.340 to. The door to the new covenant is faith, is faith. So when a paedo-baptist baptizes their

00:31:05.980 child into the new covenant, I believe that that is not objectively occurring. They're saying it is,

00:31:13.160 they're calling their child a new covenant child, and they're giving to their child the new covenant

00:31:17.580 sign, the sign and seal of the new covenant, but they're not actually a new covenant child.

00:31:22.920 So how does that relate to transgenderism? I don't know. Have you watched the libs of TikTok

00:31:27.320 recently? Have you watched some of these progressive moms? It's usually the moms,

00:31:31.980 not the dads. The dad's still at fault. He's absent and apathetic, but these progressive,

00:31:38.000 crazy, liberal moms who have a child, a young child who has not made a decision that they want 1.00

00:31:44.500 to transition in their gender, but they have this little four-year-old boy and this mom dresses the 0.96

00:31:50.300 boy up in a dress and puts makeup on the boy and tells the boy that he's a girl, right? Well, 0.75

00:31:58.320 maybe that's what led to transgenderism. And I can draw an argument from the pedo-baptist position 1.00

00:32:03.180 for that. You see what I'm saying? Now, is my response to cross-politic and more particularly

00:32:12.100 Jason Farley to say, credo-baptist didn't cause transgenderism, pedo-baptist did. No,

00:32:17.600 that's not my position. You know why? Because I'm not stupid. By the grace of God, only the grace

00:32:22.240 of God, I'm sure it left to myself. I'm plenty stupid, but by God's grace, I'm not stupid. 0.99

00:32:27.720 Pado-baptism did not cause moms transing their kids. And credo-baptism did not cause adult males 0.99

00:32:35.060 to identify internally as a female and then start wearing an outward dress. Neither of those

00:32:40.860 positions cause transgenderism. It's just a dumb argument. It's dumb. However, in cross-politics 0.99

00:32:50.200 clarification now, so not the original episode where Jason Farley made his comment that I think

00:32:54.860 was less than wise. I think it was foolish to make that comment. But to cross-politics credit,

00:32:59.880 they have followed up on social media, in their Twitter posts, but then also with some recordings

00:33:05.240 and clarified their position. And so I want to be fair to them and give their actual position.

00:33:10.860 And this is what they have said. They have said that you're right. It's not really the Baptist

00:33:15.680 position, credo or pedo. That's not what has caused this transgender movement in our pagan 1.00

00:33:21.540 nation today. But there is something to be said for decisionism, revivalism, Charles Finney. 0.75

00:33:31.200 Some of these heretical Christian ideas, Charles Finney was a heretic, by the way,

00:33:38.260 you can read his systematic theology. First Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, good. Second Great

00:33:43.740 Awakening with Charles Finney, bad. And I do think that Charles Finney and his bad theology, Charles

00:33:51.640 Finney, that's where we get the altar call from, right? So if you grew up in a church, you know,

00:33:56.080 Baptist church or Presbyterian, but let's be honest, it probably would be Baptist. And I think

00:34:00.020 this is what Jason Farley is trying to say, although I think he said it poorly. But Baptist 1.00

00:34:06.140 churches that would have an altar call. You know, like right now, who wants to give their life to 1.00

00:34:10.500 Christ? Who wants to make a decision to follow Jesus, to become a new creation, to transition

00:34:15.220 in your identity? I see that hand, brother. Come on down the aisle. We're going to pray for you,

00:34:19.960 and you're going to sign a little piece of paper. And Billy Graham, all the Billy Graham crusades.

00:34:25.720 Billy Graham, there was some good, but there was also some bad. And some of the bad in Billy Graham

00:34:31.340 is the outflow of Charles Finney.

00:34:34.300 Charles Finney, up until that time,

00:34:36.480 the reform position was the dominant position

00:34:38.860 in American Christianity.

00:34:41.040 Charles Finney pushed vehemently against that.

00:34:44.760 Charles Finney believed that revival was a work of man

00:34:47.300 rather than a work of God.

00:34:49.040 Charles Finney said that man can orchestrate revival

00:34:54.660 by simply saying, that's where we get the idea

00:34:58.420 of our church is having a revival service.

00:35:00.480 What do you mean? You don't have a revival service. You just live the Christian life and God either pours out revival or he doesn't. But you can't predict. I mean, that's as silly as some dispensational premillennialist trying to predict the return of Christ and date the return of Christ. You can't date a revival. You can't say, you know, three weeks from now in our tent meeting, God's going to send revival because A plus B plus C equals revival.

00:35:28.540 And so we're going to do this and we're going to do that and blah, blah, blah.

00:35:31.300 That's Charles Finney.

00:35:33.080 And that is, that took root.

00:35:35.140 This decisionism, the idea of it's less of the object of our faith that saves and more

00:35:41.640 of the size of our faith.

00:35:43.240 How sincere were you?

00:35:45.320 How emotional were you?

00:35:47.320 Did you feel it?

00:35:48.060 What's your testimony, right?

00:35:49.220 Somebody who just grew up in the church and doesn't remember a time of rebelling against

00:35:52.860 Christ.

00:35:53.180 Like David said, from my mother's breast, I trust you. 0.62

00:35:55.680 or Polycarp, the disciple of John, 86 years have I served you. And every biblical commentator says

00:36:01.720 he was only 86 years old. So he's just saying, I never remember a time that I didn't serve the

00:36:06.080 Lord Jesus Christ. That testimony, Charles Finney abhorred. He abhorred. Instead, what you want is

00:36:12.680 you want the testimony of a radical transition, just like transgenderism. A guy is wearing a 1.00

00:36:23.280 three piece suit one day. Uh, and the next day he walks in in a sundress with a purse and lipstick,

00:36:28.600 right? Uh, night today, right? That's the kind of testimony that you want. Um, and, and so it's,

00:36:35.620 it's this inward, uh, decision. It's all about sincerity. How sincere were you? It's, it's

00:36:41.800 emotionalism, decisionism, revivalism, um, that kind of thing. Now did that, did that idea have

00:36:51.880 something to do? Not the primary cause or the only cause, but is it a cause of this inward

00:37:00.560 identity conversation that is going on in our nation that thinks that truth is subjective,

00:37:06.240 that you could have your truth rather than transcendent universal truth, which plays

00:37:11.440 into transgenderism directly? Can we correlate all of that? I think we can. I think there's a

00:37:18.340 point there. I think we can. And is it fair to say that Charles Finney has gotten a lot more playtime

00:37:24.200 from the Baptist than the Presbyterians? That also we can say. But it's not credo-baptism.

00:37:31.280 It's not the Baptist embrace of the credo-baptist position. It's the Baptist compromise and sad 0.81

00:37:40.020 embrace of Arminianism, of Arminianism, that it's all about an individual's decision. Make a 0.99

00:37:47.980 decision for Christ. Choose this day whom you will serve. You make an inward decision to shift

00:37:55.840 inwardly in your identity from an enemy of God to a child of God, and then outwardly we'll do

00:38:02.820 a demonstration that reflects that inward decision, namely baptism. That is not so much

00:38:12.520 about credo versus paedobaptism and when the signs and seals should be administered of the

00:38:18.000 new covenant. It has far more to do with simply the doctrines of grace and when a person becomes

00:38:23.140 a Christian and how a person becomes a Christian. Is it a choice of God or is it a choice of man?

00:38:29.340 Is it a work of God or is it a work of man? Is it monergism that God reaches down and saves and

00:38:37.500 God alone? It's all of grace. God gets all the glory because God does all the work. Or is it

00:38:42.160 Pelagianism, man reaching up? Or is it a mixture of both, synergism, right? I think that is the

00:38:50.520 underlining issue. And that is not a Paedo or Credo Baptist issue. That is a salvation issue.

00:38:59.940 Not a debate between the Paedo and Credo Baptist positions, but a debate between Pelagianism

00:39:06.240 and monergism and also synergism and monergism. So that's, it's not a Baptist Presbyterian 0.86

00:39:13.640 conversation. I think that's silly, but there is something to be said for an Arminian

00:39:19.980 Calvinist conversation. How much weight does an individual have for determining their identity

00:39:27.540 through their own personal choice? There is something to be said for that. And it is true

00:39:34.120 that Baptists embraced Arminianism in a way that Presbyterians did not. And yet, here's the irony

00:39:40.080 though. Here's the irony. The PCA still has Revoice. And I'm not sure if you guys remember

00:39:48.960 this one, but remember the PCUSA? They're gay. They're all about transgenderism. And they're 1.00

00:39:58.660 not Baptist. That's a Presbyterian group. Now they've denied the faith. They've gone apostate.

00:40:04.780 So, I mean, really they're a pagan group, but they came from Presbyterianism, right? So,

00:40:09.580 so I can show anecdotal evidence on, on either side, but really if I'm, if I'm just, if I'm just

00:40:15.440 trying to straw man and make an argument, I can come up with more anecdotal evidence, at least

00:40:20.020 recently from Presbyterians embracing LGBT stuff than I can Baptist. Now that said, I can come

00:40:28.640 come up with more evidence of Baptists embracing critical race theory than I can Presbyterians. 0.53

00:40:33.460 In a nutshell, you could say the SBC, Resolution 9. The SBC is racist and the PCA is gay. 0.99

00:40:42.840 But that's a huge generalization that's not particularly helpful. There's a ton of PCA 0.98

00:40:47.960 guys who would say, we hate revoice. And there's a ton of guy, well, about half of the SBC guys

00:40:54.440 he would say, we hate critical race theory and resolution nine. Okay. So my, my point in all

00:41:00.120 that is to say, I don't think it's credo or pedo baptism that is a cause of transgenderism,

00:41:06.140 but I do think that, that deeper than baptism, the signs and seals, salvation itself,

00:41:12.000 soteriology itself, how does God save? Is it something that man chooses or is it something

00:41:17.660 that God sovereignly ordains? I think that that does have a role in, in the way that we view

00:41:23.820 a person's identity, um, what, what level of, of free will and choice a person has,

00:41:30.480 uh, the nature of truth, our epistemology, these kinds, and that does play in to this new crazy, 0.98

00:41:37.660 you know, live your truth, transgender LGBT kind of thing. So those are my thoughts 1.00

00:41:43.600 on cross politic. And, um, and that being said, I think, I don't think they worded it quite like

00:41:50.660 I did. Um, and I like to think that I worded it better, but a cross politic has come out and

00:41:57.000 clarified after the fact saying, yeah, it's, it's less to do with baptism and, uh, and it's more to

00:42:03.660 do with what I've just articulated decisionism, revivalism. Um, this, you know, man is the master

00:42:10.080 of his own fate. Um, that, that epistemology, um, has far more to do, uh, with our current cultural

00:42:18.860 moment and it's insanity versus the timing of the signs and seals of baptism and when they're

00:42:26.360 applied. So cross-pology, everything that I just said, if they listened to this, I was, you know,

00:42:30.320 I texted them this morning and let them know that I appreciate them and that I love them. I'm praying

00:42:36.640 for them. If they do end up listening to this, I think that they would agree with, you know, 98%

00:42:41.320 of the stuff I said, other than the stuff that I said that was explicitly Baptist because they're

00:42:46.080 not Baptist and they think I'm wrong about that. But in terms of what's, what they actually meant,

00:42:51.400 I think what they meant was decisionism, um, not, not credo baptism that said, um, then it would

00:42:59.540 help next time brothers, if you say it that way. And I know it was your guest. Um, but you know,

00:43:06.120 even that that's kind of, it's the pros and cons, right? The pros of having four guys at a table

00:43:10.740 together at the same time is you get rowdy fight, laugh, feast Christianity, which we need. We need 0.99

00:43:17.440 a masculine rough and tumble. We're going to spar with each other kind of Christianity. And we need 1.00

00:43:21.260 that. Um, but that's the pro the con is, um, that, that sometimes you have to put out some fires

00:43:28.660 because as we're doing the rough and tumble, you know, sparring with our rowdy fight, laugh, 0.53

00:43:33.700 feast Christianity, sometimes, you know, somebody accidentally gets an elbow to the eye. And right

00:43:38.160 now, a bunch of Baptists feel like they got a black eye from cross politic and they're upset.

00:43:42.960 So I guess the very last thing I'll say is this to my Baptist brothers and sisters,

00:43:46.860 as we're talking about transgenderism and the whole world becoming gay, let me just give you 0.82

00:43:54.020 a pastoral charge. You also don't be gay. Don't be so effeminate. Don't. Just get over it. It's 0.96

00:44:06.180 not what they meant. They have clarified. Um, I'm sure they could apologize better. I'm sure

00:44:11.340 their clarifications could use clarifications. Um, but these are good guys. And, and right now

00:44:17.540 what we have going on is a very unique moment where we're finally after decades, I mean,

00:44:25.340 it's been decades after decades, we have some reformed Christians, um, who want to apply

00:44:32.740 their theology. Not just progressives like Tim Keller, and not just pietists like Westminster 0.59

00:44:39.460 Escondido, but guys who actually have faithful theology, but also don't want to be pietists and

00:44:45.600 have a privatized lordship of Christ, just, you know, Christianity for the home and the church.

00:44:49.920 But no, they actually want to apply all of Christ to all of life. They actually want to have

00:44:53.820 Christian political understanding, like a doctrine of Christian politics, a doctrine of Christian

00:44:59.800 economics. They want to take faith, the Christian faith into the public square and actually disciple

00:45:06.500 not just individuals privately, but nations publicly. I think that's a good thing. I'm on

00:45:13.900 that team. There's a lot of splinters and subdivisions on this team. I'm not federal

00:45:19.580 vision. I'm not Presbyterian. I have plenty of disagreements. So there are different spots

00:45:25.140 on this team. We're not all aligned with everything, but the broad team right now,

00:45:31.800 it's not a Presbyterian team. It's not a Baptist team. Presbyterians want to say you can only be

00:45:36.820 on this team. Like if you were consistent, you know, you would see that a Westminster view of

00:45:41.300 the covenants is absolutely necessary for theonomic thought and blah, blah, blah. I get it. I understand

00:45:45.600 what you're saying. I've looked into it. I'm not persuaded. Okay. But here I am. You may think I'm

00:45:50.900 being inconsistent, but okay, like let's view it through your lens. Here I am inconsistent

00:45:56.620 in, in, in my, my foundational doctrines, but, but in my life, I want to be obedient to Christ

00:46:03.380 in every single realm of society. Will you have me on the team? I think the team's too small to

00:46:10.200 say, no, I think you want me on the team. And, and you just made fun of me and every other Baptist,

00:46:17.140 but i'm not effeminate and gay i'm a man i can handle it and the team's too small i think i

00:46:25.440 still want you on the team you you helped me get on this team i learned a ton from you and i'm not

00:46:30.700 gonna i'm not gonna be so sensitive so we're a small team guys the the team of the team of all

00:46:38.440 of christ for all of life the team that wants to have public theology that wants to disciple

00:46:43.920 nations and the team that believes we can be successful, that the great commission will work

00:46:48.240 this theonomic post-millennial reformed team. A lot of people don't like it. They're not on the

00:46:54.460 team. That's fine. And they think our team is horrible, blah, blah, blah. You know, time will

00:46:59.260 tell. But for those who are on the team who are like, yes, reformed, yes, post-millennial, yes,

00:47:05.000 theonomic, all of Christ for all of life. Yeah. There's a sliding scale of how theonomic. And I

00:47:09.180 I get that general equity all the way to Rush Dooney, but in general, I'm on this team of,

00:47:14.180 I want to apply all of Christ to all of life. And I think we can be successful

00:47:17.300 post-millennial and I'm reformed, deeply reformed and covenantal. This team is a good team

00:47:23.380 and it's a small team. And I think the devil would love for this small, but very needed team

00:47:33.720 to have a civil war and to be at each other's throats.

00:47:38.800 So as Doug Wilson would say, don't take the bait. 0.82

00:47:41.860 Jason Farley gave the Baptist some bait. 0.65

00:47:44.480 Baptist, don't take the bait.

00:47:46.820 Jason Farley, what he said is, 0.99

00:47:49.260 well, that's, I don't know, it was dumb. 0.99

00:47:51.980 It was dumb, but don't take the bait. 0.96

00:47:54.120 They're good guys. 0.98

00:47:55.400 They've clarified what they meant.

00:47:57.040 I agree with what they meant.

00:47:59.780 And maybe they'll say it better next time.

00:48:01.920 Big news, really big news.

00:48:05.060 Our next Right Response Conference is in the works.

00:48:08.600 We've got a number of things already lined up

00:48:10.800 and organized.

00:48:11.960 This is what we've got so far.

00:48:13.440 The whole conference, three days long

00:48:15.920 on post-millennialism and theonomy.

00:48:19.300 And the speakers, Dr. James White,

00:48:22.160 Dr. Joseph Boot, Gary DeMar,

00:48:24.960 and of course, yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.

00:48:27.700 We've got a great lineup.

00:48:29.620 We've got great topics.

00:48:30.660 If you want to find out dates and location and registration and anything else, go and

00:48:36.860 visit our website, rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com.

The NXR Podcast - August 22, 2022

BONUS - What Are Your Thoughts On CrossPolitic’s Statement About Baptists & Transgenderism？

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