The NXR Podcast - CONFERENCE - Question & Answer Session with Pastor C.R. Wiley, Pastor Jared Longshore, and Pastor Joel Webbon

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00:00:30.000 My own experience was unplanned.

00:00:41.600 I didn't grow up in a household where blue-collar trades were on display.

00:00:50.360 I grew up in an academic kind of bohemian world.

00:00:54.780 And when I became a ward of the state, when our family fell apart,

00:00:58.080 I was in western Pennsylvania and I was surrounded by blue-collar people western Pennsylvania if

00:01:04.440 you've ever seen the film deer hunter you know it's about that period of time where I was actually

00:01:08.920 in that part of the country and it's kind of the way it was it still is but um so I was surrounded

00:01:16.980 by guys who were competent manually and I grew to respect them and try to try to live like them

00:01:29.120 I think there are two things you can do one is make friends with guys who have those skills

00:01:36.080 and just talk about it with them I think that you'll find a kind of they'll be pleased know

00:01:44.640 that somebody who maybe doesn't have that background

00:01:47.620 is interested in this.

00:01:51.500 We live in a world where often people foolishly look down on them

00:01:58.020 because smart people only work with their heads

00:02:02.180 and everybody else works with their hands.

00:02:04.420 That's kind of the false belief that many people have.

00:02:09.720 Some of the brightest people I've come across are tradesmen.

00:02:12.120 but i think you can do that if you are trying to pick up skills when your children are small

00:02:19.220 of course they won't know that you don't know what you're doing

00:02:22.620 and there's always youtube videos you know you know there's lots of things i've learned just

00:02:28.420 watching youtube videos uh and so we live in a marvelous time when instruction manuals are

00:02:33.880 almost unnecessary just like i was trying to fix a fuse on one of my jeep tj my tj and uh

00:02:41.920 I had to go to YouTube to figure out where it was

00:02:45.740 and then figure out the crazy sort of convoluted way

00:02:50.040 to get at the views.

00:02:52.040 But anyway, there's lots of stuff out there to learn from

00:02:54.360 and then practice.

00:02:57.160 Great.

00:02:57.720 More questions?

00:02:58.320 Just raise your hand.

00:03:03.420 All right, I got one.

00:03:04.560 Chris, how do you keep your kids?

00:03:07.520 I gave Jared that talk about keeping your children,

00:03:09.860 and he did a marvelous job

00:03:12.400 but you as an older man with grown children

00:03:15.580 and just hearing you talk today

00:03:16.920 and then some of the podcasts I've listened with you

00:03:19.520 and times you've come on my show

00:03:20.820 you have three kids, they love the Lord

00:03:23.420 so far the grandkids are on track too

00:03:25.360 what are some practical things

00:03:27.760 that you've done parentally?

00:03:31.340 Yeah, I think one is to make certain

00:03:32.940 that you have a conversation going

00:03:34.500 doesn't mean that

00:03:35.160 the relationship with the kid

00:03:38.460 isn't uh going through a you know difficult period you know uh with each of the kids there

00:03:46.700 were there were bumps and things we had to kind of work through but you're the father yeah you

00:03:52.980 should be up for dealing with the disappointments and the the things that that go with working with

00:04:00.140 any other human being you know you're going to have that kind of stuff so you just need to

00:04:05.060 keep that in mind and be a know how to take a punch that kind of thing then i think if

00:04:13.340 you can communicate to your children that the standards are objective and that everybody is

00:04:19.460 subject to them including you that goes a long way toward them understanding that the standards

00:04:26.820 are just simply true so you know if i found myself in a situation where i had behaved foolishly

00:04:35.040 or had not been fair or whatever, I would apologize.

00:04:39.340 I think a lot of times fathers are afraid

00:04:41.040 that's going to undermine their authority.

00:04:43.260 Now, if you're an adult and you're always having to apologize,

00:04:46.160 yeah, that will undermine your authority.

00:04:48.660 But if the only person in the room

00:04:51.900 who doesn't know you're wrong is you,

00:04:55.620 then that really does harm your authority

00:04:57.740 because now you're the person

00:05:00.660 that everybody is sort of rolling their eyes over

00:05:03.060 behind your back.

00:05:05.040 So you need to be quick to acknowledge when you are in the wrong and then do whatever has to be done to make certain that the standard is secure and respected and that through that you're demonstrating that you respect for it.

00:05:24.440 And then, obviously, I think self-mastery is huge.

00:05:27.460 I think that you shouldn't ever entertain the idea that you can exercise a mastery with your children

00:05:35.780 if you can't master your own emotions and your own mind, you know,

00:05:40.240 because the kids will know that you're a hypocrite.

00:05:49.220 Jared, your kids are older than mine.

00:05:50.960 What are some of the things you're doing to help keep your kids practically, parental stuff? 0.70

00:05:57.460 Maybe a word on the kingly dimension. 0.97

00:05:59.940 So you have the prophet-priest-king thing. 0.95

00:06:01.560 There is some government that comes into play.

00:06:08.020 Maybe two ideas.

00:06:09.220 First, thinking of what Chris said about working with your sons particularly,

00:06:13.960 I do think that's more important than we realize.

00:06:17.960 And it's also going to look very different depending upon your circumstances.

00:06:24.120 So this is a little bit biographical here, but I moved over the last two years.

00:06:30.680 We have seven children.

00:06:32.120 My oldest is 14 now.

00:06:33.540 Youngest is three.

00:06:35.800 And two years ago, we bought in Florida a, well, not two years ago, I guess four years ago now.

00:06:43.560 In Florida, we bought a big fixer upper house.

00:06:48.100 Had tons of trees in the backyard that needed to be cut down, like huge pine trees.

00:06:54.120 burn pile i mean it was perfect so all the things chris says it's i struggle sometimes because i'm

00:07:00.680 like boy three years ago i was on that we had space we had all kinds of things that needed to

00:07:07.220 be fixed our home was incorporated into our life like as a as an actual project so they weren't

00:07:13.640 even like annoying things usually when something breaks in the house you're annoyed by it and it's

00:07:18.040 an interruption no this was just like a part of our lives so it's this fully integrated thing and

00:07:21.920 have four boys and we could burn we could cut down trees together hall we could work on

00:07:26.260 faucets and all that kind of stuff um now that's from that's that situation is very very different

00:07:31.860 we're we're city dwellers right um they have a very robust classical christian school experience

00:07:39.020 they're involved in sports um and i'm having to when it comes to those mid-grade things i'm having

00:07:44.940 to call people to fix things because i don't have time to do them so even hearing chris again anytime

00:07:52.240 i listen to some of the things chris says i'm like i've got to i've got to do this we have to

00:07:57.560 have some dad on son uh dad daughter time where we're actually doing a project together and so

00:08:04.780 ensure that whatever your whatever the structure of your life looks like it might look if you're

00:08:09.360 homeschoolers and you have some property then that's going to be way up but even if you're not

00:08:14.020 you have to find out ways to make sure that you're actually demonstrating to them how you are

00:08:18.720 facing these various challenges it really is learned like they're going to learn when you

00:08:23.180 hit your thumb what do you do they're going to watch you and it's going to have to be it's going

00:08:27.880 to what do you not do it's going to be very life on life kind of thing and then with their education

00:08:35.440 and with their physical activity in sports so governing so governing your lives so you have

00:08:40.500 that time together. Also governing to make sure that you're making the sacrifices necessary for

00:08:44.760 them to succeed. I thought Chris's point on prayer was really, really demonstrative. Pray that they

00:08:52.180 would win and that they would excel. And then you're shepherding them. You're watching right

00:08:56.280 now, not just big abstract promises, but right now, what do they need? Well, that child needs

00:09:00.840 to learn how to control his emotions more, right? Well, this child needs to learn how to stop being

00:09:04.580 so lazy. And so there's encouragement, prophetic work. There's also kingly work where you're

00:09:10.440 actually going to structure it in such a way that they're positioned to win. And then the priestly

00:09:15.140 work of saying, God bless that. And then share that with your wife, like talk about that. So

00:09:20.840 have a date night worked in or something where you have some time and you're talking about that

00:09:24.900 in such a way that it's not just pent up anxiety. Like why does he keep making that mistake or she

00:09:29.520 keep making that mistake? You're actually talking about it when you hear about it, then you pray

00:09:33.280 about it and just work with the Lord to watch him to watch him answer those prayers that's really

00:09:39.580 helpful uh it make it makes me think of like what you were saying the kingly prophetic kingly and

00:09:44.240 priestly that's a priestly praying God bless my kids in this endeavor in this way the prophetic

00:09:48.640 is instruction and uh and and preaching to your children preaching gospel and law but the kingly

00:09:54.520 aspect I feel like is one that has been neglected especially by reformed folks um when I was in Acts 0.99

00:10:01.080 29 for a while um i ended up growing uh resentful towards uh kyperianism because it kyperian just

00:10:10.500 was uh became a sentiment a synonym for uh social justice woke because that's what it is in acts 29

00:10:17.640 yeah sure we're kyperian it's uh but it's not all of christ for all of life it's all of marx

00:10:22.020 for all of life um you know and so and and so i you know realizing that you know that the two

00:10:28.320 it was the two kingdom guys um who who were more conservative and so i said well then that must be

00:10:34.640 the right position so then i kind of just started doing and exploring some of that and then i

00:10:38.780 realized oh you know what it's it's still good uh all of christ for all of life uh every every

00:10:43.680 realm every sphere uh it just needs to actually be christ and not and not carl marx and so um so

00:10:49.580 then i you know i came i came back and uh and you know and doug wilson was you know obviously um a

00:10:54.920 big a big inspiration in that regard and i started thinking and then i started thinking about you

00:11:00.300 know grown children who had gone astray with and and looking at some fathers and so i'm going to

00:11:05.440 get a little bit particular here but i'll do my best to be uh respectful but um but i i was thinking

00:11:11.760 about abraham piper and i'm thinking about you know it's not just like oh he's not serving the

00:11:16.200 lord but it's well he's blaspheming christ to a million tiktok followers you know and and 100

00:11:21.520 percent writing off of his father's name like abraham piper it's not like he's a genius or

00:11:25.780 uniquely gifted or would accrue that big of a platform on his own merit he's uh so it's a

00:11:31.080 mockery of his father and a blasphemy of christ and really a shame um and and i don't know john

00:11:36.940 piper i don't know his private parenting you know i'm from what i can tell like john piper is going

00:11:41.860 to be in heaven he'll have probably a closer seat to christ than me and um he seems like in a lot of

00:11:46.560 way he's like a stand-up guy but i i did think and this is you know speculation so i i want to

00:11:52.620 give that disclaimer i have no idea what happened in the particular sense in the piper home i'm sure

00:11:57.280 in many regards it was godly but i was thinking about that i was thinking about wilson doug wilson

00:12:02.240 and i was thinking about you know nate who have you know a little bit of you know i got to meet

00:12:07.580 him in person one time and um but it just seems like doug was okay with nate um very much okay

00:12:14.680 with uh nate just like dad i think what i want to do is something with dragons you know like

00:12:21.340 video games or writing or whatever it is this creative like what i'm getting at is um not uh

00:12:27.800 vocational ministry not not going to be a pastor whereas um where again i don't i'm speculation i

00:12:34.320 don't know what went on in the piper home but i could imagine just from a distance looking in

00:12:38.200 and so i could be ignorant and and working with pieces the information but if i was looking in

00:12:43.840 From the outside looking in, I would feel like if I was John Piper's son,

00:12:47.980 there wouldn't be much for me other than vocational ministry,

00:12:52.680 that that would kind of be the end-all, be-all,

00:12:55.560 and that anything outside of that would be,

00:12:57.780 not that Piper would frown on it or anything like that,

00:13:00.040 but I would feel just internally like I had settled for something less.

00:13:04.700 I like what you were saying, Krista.

00:13:06.340 I guess I have to settle for academia,

00:13:08.360 which in that case is beautiful because it's representing your daughter

00:13:12.160 saying that motherhood is even higher than that and that's right but i would hate though a child

00:13:17.020 feeling i have to settle for something outside of vocational ministry because that that is wrong

00:13:21.600 uh that that's not settling vocational ministry is not the highest end all be all and i remember

00:13:26.480 seeing on twitter with with you know some guys who remain unmentioned but a few months ago where

00:13:31.120 they posted um a quote or no it wasn't even a quote it was just the guy talking and saying you

00:13:35.540 know pastor as as christian christianity and politics has become more popular he said uh pastor

00:13:40.420 um do not you know uh do not quit your church pastoring your church of 100 to be uh to be the

00:13:47.440 the mayor of a town of a hundred thousand better to be a pastor of a church of 100 and be the mayor

00:13:53.420 of a hundred thousand and i uh quote tweeted that that individual and said uh and mayor of a thousand

00:13:59.500 do not quit your uh vocation being a mayor of a thousand person town to be uh the pastor of a

00:14:05.720 megachurch of 10 000 like it works both ways it depends on your vocation i i and and i just think

00:14:11.820 we've gotten so into we're pietists you know evangelicalism is marked by pietism and i wonder

00:14:17.860 how many kids certainly god has to sovereignly work and convert and save their souls that's

00:14:22.840 first and foremost grace and faith like jared but i i can't i just i can't help but imagine

00:14:29.540 how many kids especially particularly boys would be spared if their fathers could recognize the

00:14:35.360 direction they were going and bless it yeah so i don't know john piper but i knew i think i'm

00:14:42.360 having problems i do know doug obviously and uh pietism is the last thing that comes to my mind

00:14:48.720 when i think doug wilson uh and his kids love him uh his grandchildren love him his his daughters

00:14:56.180 and sons-in-law they all love love him but uh the very first time i was out there this is kind of a

00:15:03.260 fun story so i was brought out to speak at grace agenda and i you know i never met you know doug in

00:15:10.740 person prior to that never been with his family but i was at this big family gathering and doug

00:15:16.660 couldn't get a word in edgewise it was just sort of like this you know the scene right right but

00:15:22.520 but he was very amused by everything that was going on around him he just kind of but that's

00:15:29.260 not uh i think what people uh who have no direct experience with doug would necessarily assume

00:15:35.440 i think people who don't know the situation uh directly themselves uh are projecting upon

00:15:45.080 doug as things that are not true uh now i know nate and i know something about the background

00:15:51.200 there and nate uh is a really interesting guy he just he's very talented and uh i think that

00:15:59.100 you know i've not talked to doug directly about this but my guess is that your read is completely

00:16:04.540 right that um there is a kind of family mission that they have that that they've received from

00:16:11.640 doug's father jim who i had the opportunity to get to know a little bit um and i and all the

00:16:18.960 kids have bought into it all kids have bought into it but uh how they work it out is quite

00:16:24.720 you know it's quite open because of this reformed understanding uh that every vocation is a means

00:16:35.280 by which you glorify god yeah that um when it comes to the say the american christian landscape

00:16:44.220 i um you have say maybe the non-reformed evangelifish world is full of handing your

00:16:52.380 kids over to the state to be educated um egalitarianism all that all that nonsense

00:16:59.360 but then when you come into the reformed american christian world i would say where you have headship

00:17:04.240 complementarianism patriarchy something like that they know this this reform group knows that that's

00:17:11.420 wrong um so look let's look at ourselves for a minute i would say that the reformed world if

00:17:17.640 they're airing are airing on the side of fathers that are going to be at some on some spectrum of

00:17:25.580 heavy-handed okay so you get the the worst forms of that but just a little bit of that like they

00:17:31.940 dad the kids know the expectations but it's kind of like sit straight act right now i want to i

00:17:39.300 know that there's a kind of a loose reformed world that doesn't get it in these more more of the rod

00:17:44.980 right but I do think there's this there's this reformed vision kind of picking up on what Chris

00:17:50.940 said about Doug just there is a there's a phrase that I found them using out in Moscow a lot pull

00:17:57.000 don't push pull don't push and then left-handed power which is kind of like priestly okay right

00:18:02.840 handed is this what I said you know do what I said and left-handed is where you see something

00:18:08.080 wrong with the people that are under your command and you don't even say anything about it you don't

00:18:13.680 send those subtle signals that passive aggressive signals you don't do any of that they literally

00:18:18.320 probably don't know where you're at on the issue that's happening in the room but you pray and all

00:18:23.780 sudden you know now if somebody's burning the house down then make sure they stop burning the

00:18:28.500 house down but it's those little things where where the children feel the freedom to be like

00:18:34.660 to live to go to risk um to to do like go for it so the whole world is wide open to you like take

00:18:42.860 off and and um there's a there's a freedom there that that turns the hearts of the fathers to the

00:18:50.040 children and the hearts of the children to their fathers so when you're leading your home you want

00:18:53.740 your home to be like a fun place to be okay so and chris said great stuff about happiness and

00:18:59.460 not knowing how to define happiness it's like is the joy of the lord present in the home right is

00:19:04.580 is mom snapping at the children all the time then you know people aren't going to want to be around

00:19:09.380 there is dad always kind of dropping the iron hammer people aren't going to want to be around

00:19:13.400 there but is it a place where like it's going to be so hard for me to turn my back on dad because

00:19:19.740 dad tangibly blessed me like over and over and over and over again like i see all the ways that

00:19:26.480 he poured himself out leaders eat last kind of thing and we got these we got these blessings

00:19:32.400 that we didn't deserve so there's a vision of what you what you're aiming at great i saw a hand in

00:19:38.940 the back uh let's do the far back right there black shirt far back

00:19:41.640 well in the case of my second son uh at united steel um he got the job uh there because one of

00:19:58.000 the elders of my church used to be a foreman there and it's a family held business so it's

00:20:04.580 got about 300 employees, but it's still very much a family firm. So he's not in, say, corporate

00:20:12.760 America in the way that I think we all can imagine. But I do think that those who do find

00:20:21.160 themselves in corporate America, my encouragement to them is not necessarily to pull up stakes and

00:20:27.680 try to go someplace. You might really be the Daniel or the Joseph. And I've had guys I've

00:20:34.020 worked with over the years who've had really a positive influence on the corporations that

00:20:38.720 they've been in and have become kind of, well, counselors and mentors to others in those places

00:20:46.640 and even kind of advocates for other people. But I do think that just at a practical level,

00:20:53.060 you need to have your plan B ready because there is no such thing as a safe, secure job with

00:20:59.580 benefits that's a myth that's any corporation the last guy to get fired is the owner right

00:21:07.540 so uh be just be prepared and it may be very sad to let you go i'm it's not it's not like

00:21:14.640 it's just dog eat dog but you do you do need to just be you know the kind of the the thing that

00:21:22.600 was the real eye-opener for me was my my father-in-law was an engineer with united

00:21:28.160 technologies, which is an enormous corporation, owns Pratt & Whitney, lots of very large

00:21:36.360 industrial businesses, enterprises on the East Coast. And he was like a lot of guys in the 1950s

00:21:45.460 who believed a safe, secure job with benefits was the way to go. And then in 1992, I think it was,

00:21:51.460 he was a victim of the first you know big layoff sort of wave and then he was

00:21:58.660 hired back as a consultant a lower rate and no benefits so and I it just

00:22:07.080 devastated him he had no plan B and it's understandable no one was encouraging

00:22:13.220 him to think in those terms but I do think you everybody ought to have a plan

00:22:17.120 B if you find yourself in corporate America

00:22:21.460 Okay, well, one of the things about strengths is that generally kids who have strengths

00:22:35.240 have kind of a positive feedback loop because they're obviously doing something that they

00:22:40.960 tend to have some ability to do, and then they're getting some kind of, you know, reinforcement

00:22:48.340 either because they've done a good job and they know it

00:22:51.820 or they're getting other people who praise them for what they've done.

00:22:57.500 So that's a really positive thing.

00:22:58.780 In terms of weaknesses, I think that we all have weaknesses

00:23:03.020 and I try to get my kids to play to their strengths,

00:23:06.680 understanding that you don't want moral weaknesses.

00:23:10.680 Moral weaknesses have to be addressed.

00:23:13.040 But in terms of weaknesses of maybe competence or ability,

00:23:16.360 those can be you know we don't we just kind of think you know we can't all be great at everything

00:23:22.220 and just encourage kids to to pursue the things that they're going to shine

00:23:26.980 in thing with my kids is uh they were all pretty self-motivated so um in in many respects they

00:23:35.360 made my life easy yeah that's right that's right well they basically there are there

00:23:42.640 there's the carrot and the stick and you know you try to work with that I think too though if you

00:23:51.040 can you know and then I think there are also kind of periods of life where a kid is going through

00:23:57.020 a period of life and then when that period is is ended they're almost like a new person

00:24:04.200 and it's hard when you're in the moment to know that that that happens a lot so in you know with

00:24:10.580 with my children there were there were these you know sort of periods of great concern

00:24:16.600 with my boys you know i i just you know regular conversation with my wife at the end of the day

00:24:24.240 would be it's going to be all right don't worry about it uh i know what's going on now even though

00:24:28.780 it completely perplexes you i think i understand what's happening here now i might not have actually

00:24:33.520 know but uh but i i would say to my wife hey babe you're actually being counterproductive right now

00:24:41.620 um the more you lay it on the worse it's going to get so let up you know so i'd coach my wife a

00:24:48.420 little bit on the male mindset when the boys weren't in the room never never correct your

00:24:54.940 wife when the kids are around always always do that and likewise wives same with your husband 0.54

00:25:00.000 You know, if you've got it, if you've got something that concerns you about the behavior of your husband, your wife that you think is counterproductive, that's a good conversation for another time, you know. 0.57

00:25:11.500 But when both kids are in the room, it's time for united forces, you know, because kids have a real sense of what the sort of the window of opportunity.

00:25:23.160 It is no. OK, I'm going to side with dad right now. I'm going to side with mom against, you know, how it works.

00:25:28.180 you know on motivation um one of the things is sometimes parents have this false expectation

00:25:35.440 that we're going to have like pauline's self-control at seven you know why don't you do

00:25:42.080 why don't you weren't you better at this the hand of the diligent shall rule son well yes he shall

00:25:47.000 but i am also eight years old so what parents have to do is actually the governing thing

00:25:53.060 uh for for both your boys and girls um put them in a hard sport like put them in a very hard sport

00:26:00.680 um now if you're homeschool and you're you're way off the reservation kind of thing if you're way

00:26:05.600 out then then manual labor and for the for the daughter following mom doing that hard work early

00:26:11.460 early morning rising making breakfast for the family that can that can do it but if you're not

00:26:15.900 in that kind of situation where you're you're in access you're close access to some kind of sport

00:26:20.420 do it do it do it for the boys do it get them in there they need to get hit they need to know what

00:26:24.920 it feels like to get hit they need to get back up they need to sweat they need to uh pastor wilson

00:26:29.760 said this recently he's like there's some lessons that boys can't learn unless they're throwing up

00:26:34.120 on the sidelines that's just you can tell them all you want you can look them right in the face

00:26:40.160 son life's hard he doesn't understand what you're saying he doesn't understand if he's throwing up

00:26:45.780 then he'll understand. So you have to do it. You can't build those, that practical virtue that

00:26:51.840 Chris was talking about and that martial virtue. I don't think it can be built without a lot of

00:26:57.780 blood and sweat, particularly for your sons. And I think you need to lean on your daughters that

00:27:02.980 way to being a woman. I mean, look at that Proverbs 31 woman, that strength has to be 1.00

00:27:07.640 cultivated through, through very practical means. So this is kind of fun to reflect on,

00:27:11.740 because I did spend time with my oldest son coaching some of his teams and stuff.

00:27:17.920 So he was on the town traveling team for baseball.

00:27:20.140 That was a lot of fun.

00:27:20.880 There was a lot of fun stuff with that.

00:27:22.060 But he was also played.

00:27:24.020 I played collegiate soccer, so I was in Division III.

00:27:27.520 And so when it came time to get involved in different things,

00:27:31.420 soccer was one of the options.

00:27:32.260 So my son was on a soccer team.

00:27:33.480 One of the things that you saw with this is that the role of a coach is really important,

00:27:41.420 But one of the other problems is other parents and what they're coming to the sport with in mind for their kid.

00:27:50.200 I remember, you know, one of the things is when you move from t-ball, which is like everybody gets a trophy kind of thing, to actually winning and losing.

00:28:03.000 And then winning and losing really big, you know, really kind of freaky, the kind of behavior that you see with people.

00:28:11.240 But, you know, that's just, I agree with you completely,

00:28:15.800 but that's another sort of wrinkle to this.

00:28:18.300 I remember one time I had a young man, we had a competitive team.

00:28:24.780 This was soccer.

00:28:25.900 This was a high school soccer team.

00:28:28.300 I was a coach.

00:28:30.340 And I had a young man that I wanted,

00:28:32.860 and I needed to play a particular position,

00:28:34.940 and he didn't want to do it because it wouldn't be fun.

00:28:37.340 and so i just informed him that his fun was not the objective uh winning was what we were concerned

00:28:45.420 with and then his father took the kid's side and i said to the father i said what what do you think

00:28:52.940 this is all about uh when has your son learned to make a sacrifice he said this is supposed to be

00:28:58.220 his fun years it's like no this is not supposed to be exclusive fun time this is where he learned

00:29:04.420 some important lessons that he's going to have to to you know hopefully take the benefit of to

00:29:11.100 into the rest of his life and one of those is sometimes you do things that are not fun but

00:29:16.100 just need to be done so this is a great learning opportunity father never got the message

00:29:22.720 the kid by the way didn't turn out very good

00:29:34.420 Well, you need to follow my friend, Aaron Wren.

00:29:52.660 I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

00:29:54.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:57.700 So Aaron and I go back a long way.

00:29:59.520 It's funny.

00:29:59.960 You know, the first time Aaron and I got together was when he was still at the Manhattan Institute in New York.

00:30:04.020 and we had lunch right across the street from Penn Station

00:30:06.820 because the Manhattan Institute was located there.

00:30:08.740 And it was like three hours later, I said, don't you have to go to work?

00:30:12.460 But anyway, but he has a lot of really great things to say about those subjects.

00:30:17.680 But when it comes to servant leadership, what do we mean by that?

00:30:22.140 I think sometimes we place the accent on the wrong word.

00:30:27.720 Leadership is where the accent should be placed.

00:30:30.640 Okay, first of all, we're going to be going somewhere.

00:30:34.020 And there is some authority I'm going to exercise in order to provide the leadership here.

00:30:41.040 And it's in your best interest, by the way.

00:30:42.800 You might not understand that best interest.

00:30:44.880 I might need to teach you what's in your best interest.

00:30:47.520 That's why I serve you.

00:30:49.140 Because you're an idiot.

00:30:50.220 You don't know anything.

00:30:53.060 Listen, boy, this is what good is.

00:30:55.340 It's kind of a fun story.

00:30:56.420 When I was a little kid, I didn't like pecan pie.

00:30:59.000 Why?

00:30:59.640 Because I had tasted it?

00:31:00.660 No, because I hadn't.

00:31:02.120 I just looked gross.

00:31:03.180 It looked like a bunch of roaches in a big soup.

00:31:06.220 And so I was like, I don't want that.

00:31:08.080 And my father would look at me and say, boy, you don't know what good it is.

00:31:11.280 I'll eat your pie.

00:31:12.920 And he would just eat it in front of me.

00:31:14.640 I was like, ooh.

00:31:16.700 Then I actually tasted it one day, and I realized that I'd been schnookered my entire life. 0.59

00:31:24.700 Same thing. 0.61

00:31:25.740 Which word gets the emphasis?

00:31:26.880 So do you serve by leading, or do you lead by serving?

00:31:32.560 so most of the evangelical world thinks it's the latter so that you you know it's not that you

00:31:37.380 serve by leadership but uh but your leading is by serving and in my experience you know pastorally

00:31:45.080 not so much here with this church by god's grace but in the past due to my own immaturity and in

00:31:52.140 my own immaturity the type of people that i attracted um it was the you you know instead of

00:31:58.580 my leadership is my act of service, my service to this household, to this crew, to this woman

00:32:05.020 is my leadership, faithful leadership. Instead of that, it was, it was, you know, I, I lead by

00:32:12.960 serving and, and leading by serving. I can, I mean, I can define it for you very simple. It means not

00:32:18.540 leading always. The, the guy who's like, well, I'm leading my wife by serving. He's not leading his

00:32:24.880 wife always uh every conversation every pastoral counseling meeting at the end of the day what it

00:32:30.240 always got down to the bottom line the guys who were um i'm leading through my service they just

00:32:36.580 weren't leading and what that really meant is i'm using you know so ephesians 5 you know that

00:32:41.280 christ he laid his life down for the church um but what that how that got defined was a husband

00:32:47.200 laying down his life his prerogatives even his good sense his common sense his convictions his

00:32:54.680 theology everything laying it all down things that you're not actually supposed to be laying

00:32:58.420 down um and it wasn't laying it down for the good of the wife uh for her salvation her

00:33:03.420 sanctification her preservation protection provision it was laying it down for her personal

00:33:08.180 preferences so it was uh that's how it ended up getting defined was uh husband you lay down your

00:33:13.460 biblical patriarchy theology for your wife's preference that uh tonight she wants to go to

00:33:19.240 this particular restaurant you know that's I mean at the end of the day you press gospel coalition

00:33:25.080 and that's what they mean you press them what they mean is husband it's not husband lay down

00:33:29.440 your preferences for your wife's eternal good it's husband lay down your desire for your wife's

00:33:35.380 eternal good and anything else for that matter for her preferences even Driscoll back in the day

00:33:40.220 Aaron Wren brings this up but uh you know he'd rail on men but at the end of the day um it's

00:33:46.200 ironically it was it was feminism uh so it's like men you should you know work hard and do this and

00:33:51.660 blah blah and but but when it really came down to it the application was you should be willing to

00:33:55.760 to do all these things work you know one million hours a week and you know and and provide and

00:34:01.600 blah blah blah and um and lay down all your desires all your preferences she always gets to

00:34:07.840 pick the activity always gets to pick the restaurant notice none of those are needs they're 0.97

00:34:11.500 not they're not eternal salvific sanctification needs it's just her wants her wants her wants her

00:34:16.440 wants her wants you lay down and it's not even you laying down your wants for her wants it's you

00:34:21.780 laying down her needs for her wants you laying down even when you know she needs something that

00:34:28.760 doesn't align with her wants you pick her wants over so really the counsel is hate your wife

00:34:34.040 whereas ephesians 5 is that christ loved his bride and gave himself but but what you're actually

00:34:39.660 encourage you to do is to hate your wife by giving her what she wants over her needs we don't we you

00:34:44.140 know apply that to parenting any other scenario right we want to say well the child is five and

00:34:48.700 they want candy for breakfast lunch and dinner and you know that they need vegetables but they

00:34:53.000 want candy and if you love them you will give up your preference for your child to eat broccoli

00:34:58.020 so that your child can have their desire which is to eat candy well we would all just say that

00:35:03.320 that's abusive parenting but apply it to the husband wife relationship and it's totally fine

00:35:08.020 and when i say it's totally fine i'm talking um i'm not talking about uh heretics i'm talking

00:35:13.600 about evangelicals i'm talking about reform guys they would say not only is it totally fine to do

00:35:17.740 anything else is you are an abusive man you're a cult leader and we are going to rally as much as

00:35:24.200 we can social media attacks uh hit pieces will be written doug wilson is a cult leader you know

00:35:29.500 this person's a cult leader that person's you know um so why are they flock you know people

00:35:34.980 you said that the last part of your question they're flocking towards you know jaco you know

00:35:40.140 or andrew tate or whatever um well that's the that's the bad uh that's the bad solution it's

00:35:46.400 the wrong solution but i think they're flocking there because um well there's a couple things

00:35:51.620 but i'll just i'll end on this i think right now what you have happen is you have certain

00:35:55.480 individuals who are you know they're they're complementarian maybe even strong complementarian

00:36:00.800 broad complementarian almost patriarchal or you know they just don't like the word or whatever

00:36:05.400 and they're busting the gandalf move right so they're in the middle you know and that you shall

00:36:09.920 not pass and and so they're you know they're standing i was just going to stand up they're

00:36:14.740 like you know if here's the bridge and here's you know here's uh the weak gods thinking of like rr

00:36:21.140 reno you know the weak gods and so that would include all the universal inclusive kind of stuff

00:36:24.820 the dei so the egalitarianism feminism and here's the strong gods lowercase g gods um not like

00:36:30.680 Thor, but the strong gods, like

00:36:32.620 patriarchy would be one, nationalism would be one,

00:36:34.740 faith, tradition, all those kinds of things,

00:36:36.600 family. Here are the strong gods, and

00:36:38.640 you've got these evangelicals, and they don't know what

00:36:40.600 time it is, and they're saying, you shall not pass.

00:36:42.660 And I think right now, like the sons of Issachar,

00:36:44.820 what they would say is, no, no, no, we need

00:36:46.760 to go from feminism back to patriarchy. 0.98

00:36:48.960 And we will, whether

00:36:50.360 the evangelicals like it or not. Feminism has 1.00

00:36:52.680 failed so spectacularly, there's going 1.00

00:36:54.720 to be a rubber band

00:36:56.400 backlash moment where it's, boom, all

00:36:58.700 the way back to patriarchy and then it's just the old adage the rush duny adage of it's not whether

00:37:03.300 but which so you're going to get andrew tate patriarchy uh islamic patriarchy pagan patriarchy

00:37:08.300 or christian patriarchy biblical patriarchy there will be uh a return to nationalism you can have

00:37:14.260 third reich nationalism right or you can have christian nationalism but this strategy of i'm

00:37:20.280 going to stand in the middle and say no nationalism no patriarchy no this no that just middle you

00:37:26.020 know 1988 complementarianism a word that's been invented you know it's existed for 15 minutes

00:37:31.240 that middle that third way that third way that middle ground these guys are uh they have rendered

00:37:37.120 themselves completely impotent and irrelevant they're a joke no one will remember their name

00:37:42.560 no one whereas other guys who are mocked right now a hundred years from now people will remember

00:37:48.760 them the same way that we are today we remember guys who we would excommunicate if they were

00:37:53.700 members in our churches today. Because we all admire courage. The thing is, we want courage to

00:37:58.620 be safely buried under six feet of dirt. Then we'll admire it. So what I would say is, get right

00:38:04.420 there next to Andrew Tate and outman him in every way. And say, here's how he's right. Here's also

00:38:12.260 how he's a fool. The red pill movement, they know what time it is, but they have no solutions.

00:38:18.580 So say, yeah, you know what? And that's the beauty of the Calvinism post-mill combo, right? There's

00:38:23.000 red pill calvinism total depravity things are bad post mill uh gandalf is going to come over 0.78

00:38:28.740 this hill here in a here in a moment and uh and we're going to win we're not just going to black

00:38:33.420 pill like you know like theoden and rohan we're gonna we can we can win so

00:38:37.240 let me connect what you said back to something you said and then i'll answer your question

00:38:50.780 because this fatherlessness issue,

00:38:53.600 that's why the Andrew Tate thing, right?

00:38:57.000 And we need to be able to laugh at some things.

00:39:00.100 I just saw somebody tweet that Andrew Tate said something like,

00:39:03.360 I hate food.

00:39:05.420 I hate being hungry.

00:39:07.600 I was like, why would people look to a guy for masculinity

00:39:11.160 that acts like a 14-year-old girl? 0.67

00:39:14.880 Like who wants to be in high school?

00:39:16.980 I hate food.

00:39:18.640 I hate it.

00:39:19.220 makes i hate feeling full i'm like that was part of the tweet i hate feeling full it's like so

00:39:25.000 ridiculous i'm like this stuff is so absolutely ridiculous i didn't imagine a 14 year old girl

00:39:30.300 i was imagining ben stiller uh from um what's the movie zoolander yeah no that's what i was

00:39:36.200 okay it's a great way to lose a few uh matilda matilda it's no big deal it's a great way to

00:39:41.720 lose a few pounds before a show believe me so i'm just underscoring how bad the situation is

00:39:48.980 like that such a fake fabricated ridiculous um version of masculinity could be at all looked to

00:39:57.660 as the real deal okay so we do have a massive problem but your question is what do you do

00:40:02.940 you mentioned a lot of our a lot of fathers would be dispensationalist that kind of thing

00:40:06.740 and it's going to start by honoring them this is the way this is the way forward um if you

00:40:16.420 are a post-mill, covenantally minded, theonomic, etc., etc., patriarchal kind of person that's

00:40:23.980 understanding the family, the first thing you do is honor your father. And if you had a father

00:40:29.500 that took you to church, I mean, wow. Praise the Lord, right? Cover up his weaknesses. You don't

00:40:39.520 have to act like they're not there. Identify them. Try not to emulate them and their weaknesses.

00:40:43.440 but you cover them up

00:40:44.880 and you find the things that they did

00:40:47.040 that were good

00:40:49.260 and you praise them

00:40:51.420 praise the Lord for this grace

00:40:53.100 I remember

00:40:55.340 as some of the covenantal things began to dawn

00:40:57.380 on me

00:40:57.900 I was just absolutely struck by the

00:41:01.200 heritage of Christianity

00:41:02.580 whatever the stripe is

00:41:05.560 so whatever the stripe is

00:41:06.900 what you want to do is raise your children

00:41:08.580 raise your sons and daughters to say

00:41:10.180 let me tell you about your grandfather

00:41:12.140 if he's not around.

00:41:13.940 Let me tell you about your grandfather

00:41:14.940 who loved the Lord and worshiped the Lord

00:41:16.780 every day of his life, right?

00:41:20.000 Schofield Bible in hand.

00:41:22.680 Oh, boy.

00:41:23.420 But that thing was worn out, though.

00:41:24.960 It was worn out.

00:41:26.780 Or your great-grandfather. 0.99

00:41:28.820 Point to this Christian heritage

00:41:31.280 and begin by honoring them.

00:41:34.720 So that would be at least a starting point.

00:41:37.040 Yeah, related to that,

00:41:38.440 I got to know Jim Wilson a little bit.

00:41:40.940 uh jim never came around to the reform position um and i remember being in a meeting one time

00:41:49.600 uh with doug and he said uh i'll be back in about half an hour i've got to put my father to bed

00:41:55.620 he would literally go home pick up his father on his back and carry him into his bedroom and put

00:42:01.280 him down for the night and i saw that kind of thing uh you know often enough there in that

00:42:08.460 environment to be deeply, uh, taken by it. Um, so Doug, uh, honored his father, uh, in, uh, a number

00:42:19.820 of ways, but, um, it wasn't because his father had come around. It's kind of interesting kind

00:42:27.720 of feature to this I think that it depends on the nature of the mistake and who is affected

00:42:41.400 so if let's say maybe you were heavy-handed in the discipline of a son which is something I was

00:42:47.040 guilty of you know you go to that boy and talk to him about it you know don't necessarily make a big

00:42:54.460 house meeting. We're going to have a big house meeting here so I can say I'm sorry to Caleb

00:42:59.300 or something. So I try to keep short accounts with different members of the family. Now let's say

00:43:04.720 maybe you've made a mistake in terms of vocation or something that affects the house's financial

00:43:10.760 well-being or something like that. I don't know if you need to apologize for anything. We all

00:43:17.820 have setbacks. Things don't always work out the way we thought they would.

00:43:22.880 you know you've made the best decision you could under the circumstances with the information you

00:43:27.480 had and it didn't work okay it's time for us to pull together and try to do the best we can to

00:43:32.520 make this you know transition or whatever you're in at that point you know now at the same time

00:43:38.380 if it's something like that then it's great to have a plan b you know so you know one of the

00:43:44.580 things i i would always try to do is uh think about what's the worst case scenario can i live

00:43:48.880 with that can the people i you know care for live with that you know and so i'd have a set of uh

00:43:57.260 things that i would have as sort of uh plans of action in case things didn't work out the way i

00:44:02.740 hope they would and so sometimes you're actually working through that no one knows it i'm actually

00:44:08.220 working on plan c right now no one you don't need to announce it um you just kind of just do it

00:44:14.220 i don't know if that's helpful

00:44:18.880 I can just tell you what I did, you know, which was, there was a, you know, it's been a practice

00:44:35.720 that I've had over the years, and it's not as though I've been completely faithful to

00:44:44.260 it and there have been periods where i've been really on task and then there have been periods

00:44:49.220 where because of one thing or another i've not but every day i would go out uh during my prayer time

00:44:55.940 and i would pray through you know the membership members of my family pray for my wife pray for my

00:45:01.920 kids now i'm praying for my spouse their spouses now but years before they even had spouses i was

00:45:07.100 praying for their spouses praying for their for their children praying for my grandchildren still

00:45:11.740 Now I actually have grandchildren to pray for and names for the spouses.

00:45:16.920 But I did that kind of thing.

00:45:18.840 When it came to periods where I was concerned about their obedience

00:45:25.940 and where they were spiritually, you know, there would be periods of fasting and prayer.

00:45:31.300 I wouldn't necessarily let them know I was engaged in those things.

00:45:36.180 Like I said, I didn't want to put them on some kind of guilt trip or anything like that.

00:45:39.960 I just wanted to do it.

00:45:41.740 But those are the things I did.

00:45:45.240 You got anything with that, Joe?

00:45:46.620 Yeah.

00:45:49.100 Prayer.

00:45:50.180 So I bless the children before they go to sleep.

00:45:52.320 Oh, yeah.

00:45:52.840 Yeah, that was, yep.

00:45:53.900 I did that too.

00:45:54.280 Hand on the head.

00:45:55.100 May the Lord bless you, keep you.

00:45:56.280 May your children possess the gates of their enemies.

00:45:59.560 Amen.

00:46:00.100 Good night.

00:46:00.420 Lights out.

00:46:01.180 So something like that.

00:46:02.920 And then I would just say that particular priestly dimension.

00:46:06.740 I mean, family worship, developing a robust psalm singing culture on a Sabbath dinner

00:46:16.300 or something like that, breaking out a psalm and singing, anything that's going to be in

00:46:20.060 that priestly function, and then just carrying that idea around, knowing that that's what

00:46:24.320 you are in everything you're doing.

00:46:25.900 So if Romans tells us to offer up our bodies as living in holy sacrifices, in everything

00:46:30.060 you're doing, you're doing it like that.

00:46:31.880 So are you really going to sin?

00:46:33.100 And you're going to give in to those temptations, knowing that you are not just you, but you

00:46:39.660 are the head of this household and a priestly function.

00:46:42.660 So seeking to walk in holiness and asking the Lord to bless all that to the generations.

00:46:47.100 One of the things is kids really love traditions.

00:46:50.120 And it's, you're sick and tired of it, but they just want it.

00:46:53.060 You know, do we have to do this again?

00:46:55.360 You know, that kind of thing is how you're feeling.

00:46:57.360 But when it comes to, you know, blessing your children, praying for your children, laying

00:47:01.140 your hands on their heads and praying for them as a father i think that that communicates

00:47:04.740 and there are lots of fun things and you know i remember uh i had a tradition where christmas

00:47:11.420 would not come until i drank from the santa mug and they completely went along with it it was like

00:47:17.020 i really had the power over christmas no christmas for you this year but anyway but it was about the

00:47:25.320 family traditions, you know, and, you know, your priestly office, you know, being there

00:47:33.640 to, you know, provide an environment in which they belong, they feel secure, they are going

00:47:46.020 through kind of a pattern that they understand and have heard many times before, that's all

00:47:52.100 a lot of fun and great.

00:47:53.560 Yes, liturgy, priestly liturgy.

00:47:55.320 and so that's on a weekly basis we do a sabbath dinner on saturday night

00:47:58.600 and i think seeing that something like that happens can really ingrain things

00:48:03.420 we celebrate advent so that kind of thing uh thanksgiving what's it going to be like so you

00:48:09.580 that and that takes a lot of time and investment and conversation with your wife what are we going

00:48:13.760 to do how are they being willing to fund those things knowing that there's going to be sacrificial

00:48:18.060 investment to create this liturgical flow to the day to the week and to the year yeah we we

00:48:25.300 do sabbath dinner on saturday night with our family we usually invite one other family from

00:48:28.700 the church over to join us and we'll depending on on the family we'll usually ask ahead of time

00:48:33.720 the family that's going to join us as guests um assuming that they're okay with it we'll do like

00:48:38.200 a little bit of wine for our children and talk about celebrating uh the lord's day and so wine

00:48:44.060 is a celebration we're ushering in the lord's day and um doing those kinds of things uh has been

00:48:50.420 helpful and then our church has like a potluck meal that we do on sunday so that's saturday sunday

00:48:54.580 so the whole church is doing that we do that as a part of our sunday evening service but i think

00:48:59.320 yeah having like a a calendar a rhythm for us the one rhythm that uh that i just and i know i know

00:49:06.540 it's unhelpful but um there's a sense in which uh if the advent season is stretched too far

00:49:13.540 it undoes itself and i'm aware but christmas begins november 1st for us because we can't wait

00:49:21.160 So we have two months of decorations, Christmas songs,

00:49:25.140 and I understand it's unhelpful.

00:49:27.720 It's not in line with the calendar,

00:49:29.180 and I know that the calendar is correct, and I'm wrong,

00:49:31.200 but we just can't wait all the way until December.

00:49:36.900 Other questions? Sam.

00:49:37.900 yeah that's a great question um storytelling uh was a big part of our family um sort of practice

00:49:57.580 so i write stories so that makes makes things a little different than maybe most people uh

00:50:05.960 in terms of their experience uh so a couple things i would do um and then i'll get to your

00:50:13.640 question about uh medium uh one of the things is that the dinner table sometimes i would have the

00:50:20.140 kids make a story so we'd sit in a circle and i'd say okay here's the here's the main character

00:50:26.820 the protagonist her name is maggie okay uh and she's at the bottom of a of a hole okay and then

00:50:35.560 i turn to my child on my right then what happens and then you know the child has to make up something

00:50:41.400 on the spot you know and then the next child gets a turn there then you end up with this absolutely

00:50:45.800 non-stupid sensical stupid story of course but everybody's engaged in making the story you know

00:50:52.180 and so it's getting them thinking making them you know think in terms of you know character plot

00:50:57.340 all that kind of stuff that was fine uh the other thing i'd do is i would tell my story i tell my

00:51:02.060 kids stories every night before bed and um i'd say a good half of the time that i was making them

00:51:09.280 up on the spot extemporaneous and so there were the uh the iguana brothers igor and iggy uh so i

00:51:19.080 tell the stories about their adventures to my my sons and then my daughter i created a character

00:51:25.560 called daisy because she couldn't handle narrative tension everything had to be rainbows and

00:51:30.800 butterflies all the time so i actually made a story up on the spot that when i was done i thought

00:51:36.000 that's pretty good uh i think i can do something with this i'm i've been working on the story it's

00:51:40.500 actually a picture book that's going to be coming out here in the next couple years but i've been

00:51:43.880 working on it forever and uh there's a whole story behind that but anyway uh i think storytelling

00:51:49.740 is important and i think that if you can you know if you put books and uh verbal storytelling as

00:51:59.720 sort of the lead thing then uh the other stuff is more or less kind of uh secondary in the in the

00:52:06.980 household so we always had tons of books uh so even my my son the blacksmith uh and welder he

00:52:14.820 takes russian literature to lunch to read you know at work you know he's reading like war and peace

00:52:21.320 for goodness sake you know i'm like sitting with my kids and they're like reading this stuff that

00:52:24.820 I'm not interested in it at all, you know,

00:52:27.820 but they're talking about comparing notes about Doyshevsky and whatever,

00:52:31.800 but lots of books.

00:52:33.580 And then when it came to media,

00:52:36.260 my main message was every medium can have a positive use.

00:52:42.920 So we're not like avoiding the internet entirely,

00:52:46.640 but we have to be aware that there are temptations that are often associated

00:52:53.360 with or kind of come with the territory so uh making sure that we're the master of the medium

00:52:59.940 and not the other way around is the key i remember with my second son again a lot of stories about

00:53:05.420 gabe but he really got into video games for a while i was getting a little bit concerned about

00:53:11.180 it and then one day he just stopped just stopped and we were going we were driving somewhere and

00:53:19.180 i hadn't really talked to him about it but we went by one of these places that was all about

00:53:23.200 virtual reality kind of full immersion kind of thing i pointed it out to him he said i'm not

00:53:27.440 into that anymore and he said i want to i want to master the real world that was the thing

00:53:34.340 wow all right well let's go ahead and pause here and let's let chris not be late for his plane

00:53:40.660 can we give a warm thank you for pastor chris

00:53:44.360 one.

The NXR Podcast - December 26, 2023

CONFERENCE - Question & Answer Session with Pastor C.R. Wiley, Pastor Jared Longshore, and Pastor Joel Webbon

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