The NXR Podcast - NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬

00:00:00 Welcome to NXR Studios. If you're new to this channel, our schedule is as follows. We broadcast

00:00:04 both on X and Rumble and YouTube live on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Three broadcasts a week,

00:00:12 Monday, Wednesday, Friday, all at 12 p.m. Eastern time. Now, we're making an exception. Today is

00:00:18 Thursday. We're doing an extra broadcast, an extra live stream, because there has been a week-long

00:00:23 controversy back and forth, back and forth between many Christians on social media over the topic of

00:00:28 interracial marriage. And so we are going to have today an informal debate on that topic. It's going

00:00:34 to be myself and my two co-hosts, Wesley and Antonio, on one side of the aisle. And then we

00:00:41 will be debating against Ruslan and Avery on the other side of the aisle. My side, me, Wesley and

00:00:48 Antonio, are going to be affirming the prompt or the thesis, which is from my tweet that kicked

00:00:54 off this whole controversy about a week ago, we are going to be affirming this thesis for the

00:01:00 debate, and Avery and Ruslan will be the denying side of the table. They will be denying this

00:01:06 thesis. This is the thesis. Let me go ahead and read it right now. Interracial marriage,

00:01:11 while biblically permissible, no one's saying that it's a sin, not inherently. Interracial marriage,

00:01:17 while biblically permissible, generally slash ordinarily goes against God's normative design 0.73

00:01:25 for humanity, nations, and cultures. I'll read it again. This is the formal thesis for today's

00:01:31 debate. I am in the affirmative. Wes and Antonio affirming with me. Ruslan and Avery denying.

00:01:39 Here's the statement. Interracial marriage, while biblically permissible, generally or ordinarily

00:01:46 goes against God's normative design for humanity, nations, and cultures. Now, I say that this is an 1.00

00:01:54 informal debate. Let me give you the structure. It's formal in the sense that we're all going to

00:01:58 have opening-timed statements. So we're going to kick off in our first segment with the opening

00:02:04 statements. I'm going to go first with a 10-minute opening statement, then Ruslan, one of my

00:02:08 opponents, he will read a 10-minute opening statement. Then one of the guys on my side,

00:02:13 my team, Antonio, is going to do a five minute opening statement. Then Avery on Ruslan's side

00:02:19 of the aisle, he's going to give a 10 minute opening statement. And then we'll finish off

00:02:23 with Wes, who again is affirming on my side, a five minute statement. So Wes and Antonio,

00:02:29 both on my side, affirming the thesis, they each get five minutes. And then Avery and Ruslan and

00:02:34 myself, we get 10 minutes so that both sides get a total of 20 minutes, which means it's going to

00:02:39 be 40 minutes of opening statements. That's going to be the first segment of today's show. Then

00:02:44 we'll go to a quick commercial break and then come back. And the informal portion of this debate

00:02:49 will be the cross-examination. We're going to do that in a discussion format rather than timed

00:02:54 cross-examination. So that'll be anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half. The second segment,

00:03:00 informal cross-examination, lively discussion. Then we'll go to a final commercial break and

00:03:05 we will come back for the third and final segment, which will be super chats. If you have a question

00:03:10 or a comment, send it in as a super chat and start sending them in now, because this is going to be

00:03:15 in order as we receive them. First come, first serve. If you have a comment or a question and

00:03:20 it's not a super chat, then it's not going to get read on the air because we're going to have a lot

00:03:25 of comments and a lot of questions for this topic. And so we want to prioritize the people who are

00:03:30 being generous and supporting this channel. We appreciate you very much. And so the last thing

00:03:35 with super chats, it's important. You got to stay on topic. If you are not staying on topic, even if

00:03:40 it's a super chat, if it's a question or comment, that's not on topic, we'll have to address it

00:03:44 another time because we only have so much time. We're going to have to end the stream. It's going

00:03:48 to be a long one, but eventually we have to end the stream because Avery and Ruslan are flying

00:03:52 back today. It's a quick turnaround. They came out this morning. They're going back this evening.

00:03:57 And so if you have a Super Chat, you want it to get read, it needs to be on topic, and you need to get it in sooner rather than later because we're going to go in order that we receive the Super Chats.

00:04:07 Last thing that I want to say is a big thank you for our Patreon supporters.

00:04:11 These are guys who are financially, generously supporting us, NXR Studios, on a monthly basis, and we constantly are thinking of ways to provide special, tangible, substance, value for you.

00:04:25 And so we spent over two hours, myself, Wes, and Antonio, recording a two-hour episode exclusively only for our Patreon supporters on this topic of interracial marriage,

00:04:37 giving the science, the biology, the scripture, the theology, giving some of the cultural aspects, breaking down what is ethnicity, what is race, is race a biblical term, where do you root that in the scripture, what's the difference between race and ethnicity.

00:04:52 If you want to watch that episode, then join us on Patreon.

00:04:55 You can go to patreon.com forward slash nxrstudios, patreon.com forward slash nxrstudios.

00:05:03 All right, here's a quick couple of announcements, then we'll get to our first segment with the

00:05:07 opening statements.

00:05:09 Hey guys, in case you haven't heard, right now we have a 10-part series with one of the

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00:05:36 coming out one episode per week on Wednesdays at 12 p.m. Eastern time. However, if you want to get

00:05:43 all 10 episodes today ad-free early access they are exclusively available on patreon.com and as

00:05:51 a special limited time offer you can also get two hardcover copies signed copies of our brand new

00:05:58 book the hyphenated heresy judeo-christianity go over to patreon.com forward slash nxr studios

00:06:06 today to take advantage of these offers. In 1979, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin

00:06:13 gifted Jerry Falwell a luxurious Learjet 25, worth millions of dollars. Officially,

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00:06:26 Israel's valuable ally, flying high as a lobbyist in the skies. And from that moment on, Falwell's

00:06:33 allegiance soared. His moral majority made backing Israel a core platform, preaching American

00:06:39 prosperity hinged upon blessing the Jewish state, or else face God's wrath. Genesis 12.3 was twisted

00:06:48 into foreign policy. Now explore the full account in the hyphenated heresy, Judeo-Christianity.

00:06:55 Learn how the faith was hijacked and rediscover Christianity on its own historic terms. Pick up

00:07:02 your copy today at amazon.com radical christian nationalist pastor joel webin joel webin

00:07:17 i'm gonna talk about joel webin joel webin is an accident

00:07:32 all right we are here this is going to be a live informal debate you already saw the cold open so i

00:07:48 won't you know espouse it all again but we're going to be formal in the sense that we actually

00:07:52 do opening statements and those will be timed we'll take turns and uh leave the the raucous

00:07:57 out of it we'll you know i'll be on our best behaviors let the other guy speak the discussion

00:08:01 portion that's kind of the informal portion of the it will be cross-examination but it's going

00:08:05 to be in a discussion format instead of you know a time do you say this then you say that going back

00:08:10 and forth so we'll do our best not to interrupt each other but you know how it is like there might

00:08:14 be a moment where it's like dude wait wait let me finish what i'm saying or you know and that's

00:08:19 and that's allowed in the discussion portion not during the opening statements and then as we've

00:08:22 already said we'll take super chats at the end so we don't want to waste time because we got 40

00:08:26 minutes of opening statements we'd like to have at least an hour i'm thinking of discussion and

00:08:30 then probably an hour on Super Chat. So we're going to be here for a little while. We've got

00:08:34 a couple commercial breaks. So we built in some bathroom access into this live stream,

00:08:41 because it's going to be a while. But let's start by doing this. Let's just introduce ourselves.

00:08:45 And we've got people from all over. We've got guys from your channels, guys from our channels.

00:08:50 So I don't want to assume that everybody knows who everybody is. So you are the guest. So let's

00:08:54 start over on this side of the table. Hi, I'm Ruslan. Hi, Ruslan. What do you do? Real quick.

00:08:59 so that's your name what what do you do what's your vocation what like uh youtube podcaster

00:09:05 uh former artist slash current artist and uh yeah author best-selling author now yeah

00:09:11 really what's the book godly ambition godly ambition that's good man dude it's been like

00:09:19 20 years of gospely centered centered gospel guys ragging on ambition yes yeah so good for you

00:09:25 That's awesome.

00:09:25 That's good.

00:09:25 How do you feel about interracial marriage?

00:09:27 I love it. 0.99

00:09:29 Your wife is black, right? 1.00

00:09:30 My wife is black. 1.00

00:09:31 Okay. 0.99

00:09:31 All right.

00:09:32 What's going on, Avery?

00:09:33 I'm Avery from GodLogicApologetics. 0.88

00:09:36 I'm a Christian who does apologetics against Islam, Hebrew Israelism, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, things of that nature.

00:09:45 I like to debate the Trinity, the deity of Christ, biblical reliability, and all kinds of stuff.

00:09:50 So you can find me on YouTube at GodLogicApologetics.

00:09:55 You can find me on Instagram, GodLogicGL.

00:09:57 Same thing with Twitter and TikTok.

00:10:00 I stream every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

00:10:02 So it's like a consistent stream schedule.

00:10:04 So you want to catch us live, see the fun, you can come on in and see what we do.

00:10:11 What time?

00:10:11 See what we do live.

00:10:12 Usually around 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

00:10:17 That's perfect.

00:10:17 So we're Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, so you can watch us first.

00:10:20 at 12 p.m. Eastern time,

00:10:22 and then you can go watch some popcorn.

00:10:23 That's right, that's right.

00:10:24 Yep, I'm Antonio Griffith.

00:10:26 I'm a contributor here at NXR.

00:10:28 I'm a father, three children, a churchman,

00:10:31 and you can see me Monday, Friday, NXR Live

00:10:34 at 12 Eastern.

00:10:36 12 p.m. Eastern, yep.

00:10:38 Perfect.

00:10:38 Yep, and I also help co-host as well

00:10:40 here at NXR Studios,

00:10:41 also Right Response Ministries,

00:10:43 our theological side,

00:10:44 husband, father to two children,

00:10:46 and a churchman as well.

00:10:47 What's your name?

00:10:48 Wesley Todd.

00:10:49 All right.

00:10:49 And I'm Joel Webin. My primary vocation is I have the privilege of being a local pastor.

00:10:55 So I pastor a church in Georgetown, Texas. We're about hour north or so of Austin, Texas.

00:11:00 So close enough to have, you know, guys commute for work, things like that.

00:11:05 Ministry opportunity, but far enough away to hopefully have our police not be defunded.

00:11:09 So we're right there in the sweet spot. And then I am a husband to one and a father of six, one in glory.

00:11:17 So five children with us that we adore, and then I am CEO of NXR Studios, and then also

00:11:25 get to be president with Right Response Ministries.

00:11:28 And that's it.

00:11:29 Nice.

00:11:29 All right.

00:11:30 Anything you guys want to cover before we go into opening statements?

00:11:33 Are we ready?

00:11:34 Oh, I thought we were going to play some more commercials.

00:11:36 Yes.

00:11:36 Oh, no, that's it.

00:11:38 Oh, okay.

00:11:38 Do you need...

00:11:40 Okay, so let's...

00:11:42 Sorry, hold on real quick.

00:11:43 No, it's okay.

00:11:44 I do want to let GodLogic will be at the Blessed God Summit.

00:11:46 That's right.

00:11:47 debating jacob hansen uh on the trinity jacob hansen's a leading lds apologist so plug for that

00:11:53 yes okay yeah um do you so i don't want you to miss any of the opening statements did you need

00:11:57 to do something real quick yes okay yes why don't you go do something it's all right it's all right

00:12:03 and uh talk to us a little bit about the god summit go ahead and take this opportunity to

00:12:07 plug yeah sure so um man so this is actually kind of the second year in a row that he's doing like

00:12:12 this uh this this god summit um he's bringing in a bunch of everyone from all type of backgrounds

00:12:20 and works within the christian like uh sphere you know internet sphere um and and bringing them on

00:12:27 to do talks bringing them on to uh give discussions tips um and inspiration with all like you got

00:12:33 fitness you got apologetics you got um um just you know christian living you know just it's really

00:12:40 good so um yeah so i'll be debating jacob hansen um who is an lds apologist we're going to be

00:12:48 debating on whether or not the god of the bible is a trinity and so that's going to be fun that's

00:12:53 going to be a good time that's cool yeah uh that was impressive i feel i feel like i feel like you

00:13:00 should be in the military like i feel safer knowing that this guy all right now that was

00:13:05 impressive that was fast all right here we go uh opening statements so it'd be me then ruslan

00:13:09 then Antonio then Avery and then Wes all right here we go let's put 10 minutes on the clock

00:13:15 and we're gonna keep to the time ready I'm gonna wait till it counts there we go public discussion

00:13:23 of interracial marriage routinely collapses multiple moral and theological categories

00:13:28 into a single accusation to say one is against interracial marriage is treated as equivalent

00:13:35 to declaring it inherently sinful, perpetually immoral, criminally punishable, or worthy of

00:13:42 social expulsion. This is a category error. Christian theology has always distinguished

00:13:47 between normative design and absolute prohibition, between what God ordinarily orders and what he

00:13:55 may nevertheless permit, bless, or redeem under providence. My statement argues that interracial

00:14:02 marriage is not God's normative design for humanity, nations, and cultures, while rejecting

00:14:09 the claim that it is inherently sinful in all cases, or constitutes an ongoing state of sin,

00:14:16 or should be criminalized by the civil magistrate. The argument is theological and prudential,

00:14:22 not punitive. Scripture routinely affirms realities that are not ideal, while still

00:14:28 permitting them under God's providence. Polygamy, divorce, and even slavery are regulated in

00:14:34 Scripture without being presented as creational ideals. Permission is not endorsement. Regulation

00:14:42 is not normativity. To say that something is not normative is to say that it is not the pattern

00:14:49 God established at creation or the ordinary arrangement He blesses for long-term stability.

00:14:55 It is not to say that God cannot work good through exceptions, nor that individuals involved

00:15:01 are somehow outside of grace. The question, therefore, is not whether interracial marriage

00:15:08 can occur without immediate divine judgment, but whether it reflects God's ordinary ordering of

00:15:14 human life as revealed in creation, providence, and history. Any Christian account must begin

00:15:21 with creation. Scripture affirms monogenesis. All humanity descends from Adam and shares equal 0.77

00:15:28 dignity before God. This unity of origin, however, is not a mandate for historical sameness. From

00:15:36 Genesis onwards, Scripture moves immediately from unity to descent, lineage, and inheritance.

00:15:42 Genesis 10, the table of nations, presents humanity divided into families, clans, languages,

00:15:48 lands, and nations. These divisions are not accidents nor merely punishments for sin.

00:15:55 They are the means by which God orders humanity in history. Babel does not create distinct 0.70

00:16:00 peoples as different species. It restrains an artificial coercive unity that would have erased 0.99

00:16:08 organic development. Throughout scripture, God deals with humanity not only as individuals but

00:16:14 as peoples. He sets their boundaries, Deuteronomy 32, verse 8, determines their dwelling places,

00:16:20 Acts 17, verse 26, judges them corporately, Amos chapter 1 and 2, and redeems them without erasing

00:16:27 their identity, Revelation chapter 7, verse 9. The biblical vision is unity without homogenization.

00:16:35 This framework undercuts the modern claim that peoplehood is either illusionary or morally

00:16:41 suspect. Scripture treats descent, kinship, and inheritance as real meaningful features

00:16:47 of the created order. For most of Christian history, race functioned as a descriptive term

00:16:54 for peoplehood, extended kinship embodied in history through ancestry, marriage, language,

00:17:00 custom, religion, and land. It was not a claim about biological hierarchy or immutable genetic

00:17:06 essence. The biblical problem is not that humanity has distinct peoples, but rather that peoples

00:17:12 rebel, forget God, and oppress one another. When race is understood biblically and as extended

00:17:19 kinship rather than superficial skin tone taxonomy, the theological relevance of marriage

00:17:25 becomes clearer. Marriage is not merely a private romantic arrangement. It is the primary mechanism

00:17:31 by which peoples perpetuate themselves across generations.

00:17:35 Marriage in Scripture is oriented towards posterity, inheritance, and continuity.

00:17:40 From Genesis chapter 2 onward, marriage joins man and woman,

00:17:44 not only emotionally but genealogically.

00:17:47 Be fruitful and multiply is a command tied to lineage and dominion.

00:17:51 Because marriage produces children, 0.95

00:17:53 it necessarily participates in the preservation or dissolution of peoples. 0.95

00:17:58 This is morally neutral in the micro sense.

00:18:02 No child is less human or less image-bearing, but it is not neutral in the macro sense.

00:18:09 Over time, patterns of marriage determine whether a people continues, assimilates, or disappears.

00:18:15 Across scripture and history, people overwhelmingly marry within their own extended kinship groups.

00:18:21 This is not the product of hatred, but of proximity, shared language, shared norms, and shared inheritance.

00:18:27 God ordinarily works through families that become clans, clans that become peoples,

00:18:32 and peoples that persist through homogenous marriages. 0.99

00:18:36 Interracial marriage, by definition, disrupts that continuity.

00:18:40 Again, disruption is not always sinful.

00:18:42 Scripture allows for exceptions, conversions, adoptions, and incorporations,

00:18:47 but exceptions do not define the rule.

00:18:51 To say that interracial marriage is not normative

00:18:53 is to say that God's ordinary means of preserving peoples is intra-group marriage. That is true 1.00

00:19:00 empirically, historically, and biblically. A further distinction must be made between

00:19:06 permissibility and engineering. Something may be morally permissible in isolation while still

00:19:12 being promoted systematically for destructive ends. In the modern West, interracial marriage, 0.98

00:19:17 particularly for white Europeans, has been relentlessly promoted through media,

00:19:22 advertising, and institutional messaging. The pattern is not organic representation of demographic

00:19:28 reality. It is asymmetrical and targeted. White heterosexual couples, the only arrangement that

00:19:35 produces white children, are conspicuously minimized. Against the backdrop of abortion

00:19:41 access, mass immigration, and the normalization of gay marriage, the promotion of interracial

00:19:47 marriage functions not merely as representation, but as demographic strategy. One need not believe 0.95

00:19:54 in conspiracies to observe the incentives, patterns, and outcomes. In this context, it is reasonable to

00:20:00 say that interracial marriage, while morally permissible in individual cases, is being used 0.74

00:20:06 instrumentally at the macro level to accelerate the dissolution of a particular people. To deny

00:20:13 this is not charity. It is willful blindness. It is critical to restate what my position does not

00:20:19 claim. First, it does not claim that interracial marriage is inherently sinful in every instance.

00:20:24 Scripture does not provide warrant for such absolutism. Second, it does not claim that

00:20:30 entering an interracial marriage places individuals in a perpetual state of sin.

00:20:34 Marriage creates real obligations. Once formed, it is to be honored, not undone. Third, it does 1.00

00:20:40 not claim that interracial marriage should be criminalized or punished by the civil magistrate.

00:20:45 The distance between moral norm and civil sanction is vast, and Scripture recognizes this. Fourth,

00:20:52 it does not claim that Christians who disagree are heretics. There is no ecumenical counsel,

00:20:58 confessional standard, or universal patristic witness that condemns the opposing view as

00:21:03 outside the faith. Disagreement here is real, but not church dividing. The reflexive charge

00:21:10 that my position is racist depends on collapsing biblical peoplehood into modern racial ideology.

00:21:17 Once that collapse is rejected, the accusation loses its force. Affirming that God ordinarily

00:21:23 orders humanity into distinct peoples is not hatred. Acknowledging that marriage sustains

00:21:28 those peoples is not malice. Arguing that normativity matters is not violence. What is

00:21:34 dishonest, is pretending that every preference is morally equivalent, every pattern accidental,

00:21:41 and every outcome inexplicable. Scripture does not treat history that way, and neither should

00:21:47 Christians. This framework undercuts the modern claim that peoplehood is either illusionary or

00:21:54 morally suspect. Scripture treats... Whoops, sorry, almost done here. A theology that cannot account

00:22:02 for peoplehood will eventually spiritualize away everything concrete, borders, inheritance,

00:22:07 authority, and even accountability. The result is not unity, but fragmentation and confusion.

00:22:13 Interracial marriage understood rightly fits within this framework. It is an exception God 1.00

00:22:18 may bless, but not the pattern that he ordinarily establishes. Recognizing that distinction is not

00:22:24 cruelty, but fidelity to the created order. To assert that interracial marriage is not God's

00:22:29 normative design is to affirm creation, history, and prudence without denying grace, dignity,

00:22:34 or redemption. It is to distinguish norm from exception and permission from promotion. This

00:22:41 position neither condemns individuals nor criminalizes relationships. It simply insists

00:22:45 that God's ordering of humanity into real peoples is meaningful, that marriage perpetuates those

00:22:51 peoples, and that modern efforts to erase this reality are neither biblical nor benign. Christ

00:22:57 is king over nations as nations and faithfulness requires speaking plainly about what he has made

00:23:03 even when doing so is unpopular okay that's my opening statement uh russon all right joel thank

00:23:11 you so much for having me we had you at my space and i'm glad to be back with your space so yeah

00:23:15 um initially this was supposed to be a three versus one so i'm glad i was able to bring

00:23:20 god logic now it's a three versus two but then i discovered antonio is half half black half white

00:23:27 it's two and a half versus two and a half as i told you privately it is very impressive you

00:23:32 got a mixed race brother to argue against interracial marriage yeah well impressive or

00:23:37 or we'll see we're just right so i'm listen i'm here um not because i necessarily uh see you guys

00:23:46 as my adversary though i think some of the positions are can be adversarial to scripture

00:23:51 which i think hopefully we get to clarify those things uh and get to the bottom of those things

00:23:55 um and ultimately like i i care about you joel you came by we had a great time we hung out we

00:24:01 went to get sushi together yeah uh discovered some things about you uh that i liked and it's

00:24:05 some other things that we disagreed on a little bit but so i care about you broader speaking i

00:24:10 care about the audience i care about the conversation i care about where the country's

00:24:13 going so um this is about what we tell christians god disapproves of right um i wouldn't be here if

00:24:21 this was just a disagreement over preferences, I'm here because when we say God's design,

00:24:26 we are talking about moral authority. So to be clear, we're talking about pro-scripture,

00:24:30 pro-church, and anti-careless doctrine. I think when we examine the scriptures,

00:24:36 we see a pretty strong record of inter-ethnic marriages without any condemnation. We see Moses

00:24:44 and his wife, which in Numbers 12, we see God then rebuke Miriam, not Moses. We see Ruth and Boaz, 0.57

00:24:52 we see Rahab, and these are not fringe stories. They're redemptive history moments, and some of

00:24:58 these people make it into Jesus's very own lineage, okay? So if these were the exception

00:25:05 to the rule, it would be reasonable to see that laid out clearly in Scripture. We don't see any

00:25:11 such argument. And so therefore, the burden of proof is on you guys. The burden of proof is to

00:25:17 show how there's a condemnation of this, or denial of this, or this is the exception to the rule.

00:25:23 It is not on us to provide the permission of it. If we look at the New Testament, we see multiple

00:25:29 epistles written to mixed ethnic churches. We see Corinth, we see Ephesus, Galatia,

00:25:36 Colossia. These churches were ethnically and culturally mixed. We even see Paul writing to

00:25:42 Timothy, who was culturally and ethnically mixed. And what we see in Scripture, clear as day,

00:25:47 a clear rebuke of sexual immorality. We see a clear rebuke of idolatry. We see a clear rebuke

00:25:54 of partiality. And of course, a clear rebuke of false gospels. But we never, ever, not once,

00:26:01 do we see any rebuke of inner ethnic marriage, not one, okay?

00:26:05 So if it is generally against God's design,

00:26:09 the silence of scripture and the apostles is inexplicable.

00:26:13 It absolutely makes no sense.

00:26:16 And we see this evident in Ephesians 2, verse 14 through 16, 0.75

00:26:20 as Paul is oddly writing a mixed ethnic church.

00:26:24 He says in verse 14, and this is a beautiful passage

00:26:28 right after talking about how we're saved by grace through faith

00:26:30 in this, to God's good work, we are his handiwork.

00:26:34 And then in verse 14, Paul says,

00:26:37 for he himself is our peace

00:26:40 who has made the two groups one

00:26:43 and has destroyed the barrier,

00:26:46 the dividing wall of hostility

00:26:48 by setting aside in his flesh the law

00:26:51 with its commands and regulations.

00:26:53 His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity,

00:26:58 one new humanity out of the two.

00:27:00 thus making peace and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross by which

00:27:07 he put to death their hostility he came and preached peace to you who were far away and

00:27:11 peace to those who were near so we see this very clear uh description that uh mixed ethnic church

00:27:18 is being made into one new humanity and again we see no prohibitions we we don't even see any

00:27:24 slight pushback on this in any New Testament epistles at all. And he's writing to an audience

00:27:31 that this would clearly matter to. So I think this is huge to break down and just get to the basics

00:27:38 that God is not returning for a mono-ethnic bride, which I know you guys believe, but he is in real

00:27:45 time right now redeeming a multi-ethnic people. This matters because design points forward,

00:27:52 not backward and that leads me to my next point which is i think we would all agree here that god

00:27:57 is a god of order uh that god does not contradict himself that theology requires uh the theology

00:28:04 that that theology that requires semantic gymnastic is sus uh god is not a god of

00:28:10 confusion as we see in first corinthians 14 13 the logos theme god is rational

00:28:15 communitive, and consistent, which leads me to this entire premise, oddly enough,

00:28:22 completely breaking the very second rule of logic. A moral claim must be morally permissible

00:28:29 or morally impermissible, and the second rule of logic is the law of the excluded middle. There is

00:28:36 no third moral category called generally against God's design but not sinful. The entire premise

00:28:43 of this. Once you say God's against this design, you've crossed from preference into moral

00:28:48 territory. The entire premise becomes incoherent. So if it's not sinful, it cannot be morally

00:28:54 disproved by God. At most, at most, it's preference or situational, not normative.

00:29:02 This claim, this entire claim debate, interracial marriage, while biblically permissible, generally

00:29:06 orderly goes against God's design, is incoherent. And so I find all this telling and interesting,

00:29:12 And in a broader context, like I'm more interested in your own evolution, Joel, because I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you as much as you seem to be disagreeing with you.

00:29:27 And so I got a couple of clips I'd love to play of you from 2022, where it sure does sound like you are co-signing everything I'm co-signing.

00:29:37 because you don't bring people home right like it's just i hear you racism my point is

00:29:45 if race is a big deal racism is the necessary wall of defense to preserve the big deal of race

00:29:53 you can't continue to emphasize race multiple generations from now without dividing walls

00:29:59 of hostility to protect the purity of of the race and i feel like even with israel ethnic israel

00:30:06 so we see we see if race is a big deal quote if race is a big deal i don't see racism not being

00:30:14 the logical conclusion here's more on interracial marriage no for a fact if i could sit them down

00:30:19 strap them to a chair give them some truth serum and hear what they really thought i don't think

00:30:23 that they're they would be a fan of inter interracial marriage uh because it's all about

00:30:29 you know it's all about your identity coming from your ethnicity and what you don't want to you don't

00:30:35 want to water that down you don't want to lose that you don't want to mix that you know and so

00:30:38 so joe this is you railing against hebrew israelites and i got one more clip

00:30:44 it's my favorite one articulate or not the natural thought process is that that skin

00:30:50 that blood needs to be preserved and and and so you have to turn inward rather than outwards

00:30:56 and embracing people from every tribe tongue and nation and you know i've got three girls and if

00:31:01 one of them, you know, bring some Hispanic guy home one day when she's older and the guy loves

00:31:05 the Lord, then I want to say, praise God, marry my daughter, you know, or black guy, praise God, 0.85

00:31:09 marry my daughter. But I feel like if race is such a, you can't say that. 0.93

00:31:16 If race is such a big deal, you can't say that. So I don't know. I think at best, Joel,

00:31:23 you've clearly flip-flopped on his position really bad. At worst, this is a part of a bigger play

00:31:29 for partnerships with other Christian nationalists, but if race is a big deal, racism is a necessary

00:31:35 wall of defense to preserve the big deal. Now, you guys have said race is in everything,

00:31:39 but it's not nothing. So I'm just more curious on how you, just a couple years ago, went from that

00:31:45 to where you are today. And really, my frustration is in you saying, I'm against interracial marriage.

00:31:51 You can say I have preferences. I wouldn't even be mad if you said, hey, I want my grandkids to

00:31:54 look like me. I want my kids to marry folks. But when you go out and say, I am against something

00:32:00 as a pastor, I think I have some issues with that because I just don't see it in scripture.

00:32:04 And so in this conversation, we're going to have some fun today. Again, I think God logic is going

00:32:09 to have some interesting points, but I want to make sure that the goalpost is not moved and that

00:32:14 we're not going back and forth over different prompts. We have a very clear prompt that you

00:32:18 guys have to prove. I'm sure we're going to have some conflation of race and ethnicity and culture

00:32:24 and faith. Joe is probably going to call our perspective wooden, because we're going to keep 0.99

00:32:28 taking you guys right back to Scripture. You're probably going to call us autistic and retarded. 0.98

00:32:32 That's fine. For demanding that we make a case from logic and Scripture. And I'm guessing there 0.98

00:32:38 will be, oh, I would love to hear your fifth commandment argument to honor your mother and

00:32:42 father. That's going to be interesting if you bring that one up. There'll be appeals to emotion,

00:32:46 social anxiety, gish galloping, filibustering. But what won't happen is they will not be able 1.00

00:32:52 to prove this with scripture even if i sat here and i granted every race realist claim and every 0.60

00:33:00 statistic every sociological concern every fear every uh they're trying to take out the white

00:33:07 men and take our jobs because the immigrants are coming even if i did all of that none of it would

00:33:12 overwrite which scripture clearly permits so that's it that's my time all right we will do 1.00

00:33:20 our best to respond in the discussion portion. So I'm going to hold off. It's your turn. Wait,

00:33:26 no, it's your turn. Yep, Antonio, it's now. Great. Well, as I jump in, I think it will be

00:33:31 helpful to deal with race. So we'll start there. And I want to just be clear, when we talk about 1.00

00:33:36 race, we don't mean to import caricatures or any moral hierarchies, nor do we even mean to refer

00:33:41 to any discrete biological boundaries. In my view, race refers to a large, historically stable

00:33:48 gene-sharing population that has developed under distinct geographic and ecological conditions,

00:33:54 and therefore they exhibit, these different peoples, pattern differences in genetic variations

00:33:58 and phenotypical traits. This is one of the reasons, for example, we can refer to white

00:34:03 or black or Asian people and not have any linguistic utility, because we all know that 1.00

00:34:08 this is true. In terms of a biblical anthropology, my position is pretty simple, that this human 1.00

00:34:13 variation is not random. It was actually a consequence of the dominion mandate given by

00:34:18 God to man at creation that they would be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth in Genesis 1,

00:34:24 verse 28. As a consequence of filling the earth, by God's design, these people, exposed to different

00:34:29 environments and diets and patterns of living, developed distinct and varied physical and

00:34:34 biological attributes. And these variations, which when classified broadly can be described as what

00:34:40 we call colloquially race, and they cluster primarily at the continental scale. For this

00:34:46 reason, we can use the word European and white interchangeably. These clusters are detectable 0.99

00:34:52 and predictive, and they're obviously not absolutes. I think race is better understood

00:34:56 statistically as a fuzzy set of data with real structure, much like dialect regions or ecosystems.

00:35:03 You can blur the borders, but the underlying realities remain. For example, you might ask

00:35:08 an ecologist. Where does the Amazon rainforest end? The borders are ecological gradients and thus

00:35:13 quasi-arbitrary, but the lack of natural borders does not erase the existence of the rainforest

00:35:19 altogether. In this way, you can understand the way in which race is a linguistic, or as you might

00:35:24 say, a social construct that refers to a real non-pattern, non-random pattern, I should say,

00:35:31 of human biology. And to deny this is to insist that reality conform to a modern liberal consensus.

00:35:38 and its flattening of nature and its biological variations by way of race.

00:35:42 And to quickly explicate, going back to the prompt, what is meant by God's normative design,

00:35:48 this refers to the purposes and patterns God intentionally built into creation

00:35:52 that define how things ought to function, not merely how they function in the fallen world.

00:36:00 Normative refers to a divinely established standard discerned through creation's telos,

00:36:05 that is its ends, but also its stable and recurring patterns, and scripture's authoritative

00:36:10 interpretation of both. Deviations from these patterns do not redefine the norm, just as disease

00:36:17 does not redefine health. And so given the structured human variation, we can properly

00:36:22 assess on theological grounds the way in which distinct human populations or races correspond

00:36:27 with one another, and more specifically than that, how these distinct groups correspond with one

00:36:33 another within the context of marriage. So what is the purpose of marriage and what kind of unity

00:36:38 does God intend to establish? This is where scripture and specifically case law is helpful.

00:36:43 In Deuteronomy chapter 22 verse 10, Israel was commanded not to plow with an ox and a donkey

00:36:48 yoke together. And scripture itself teaches us how to read such laws. They are case laws,

00:36:53 specific applications of broader moral principles. The unequal yoke is not merely about animals. It's

00:37:00 about mismatched types bound together in a task that requires unity, both of spirit, that is faith,

00:37:06 and nature, that is in their physical essence. This principle of unity is explicitly applied

00:37:11 in scripture to faith, but it does not originate there. Religion, faith, is simply the highest and

00:37:17 most explicit expression of it. Man is created in the image of God. Woman is created as his helpmeet,

00:37:23 not an assistant, but a mirror, corresponding reflection formed from him and for him. As

00:37:30 Genesis and Paul both affirm, she is of the man and for the man, sharing in his calling,

00:37:35 his culture, and his covenantal identity. A helpmeet is intended to have something religiously

00:37:40 and culturally in common with her husband, or else she cannot truly help him fulfill his God-given

00:37:45 task. This necessity for unity and correspondence is why scripture clearly places the burden of the

00:37:51 law against unequal marriages, not merely inter-religious marriages, though those are

00:37:56 explicitly condemned, but unequal unions more broadly, unions that fracture the very community

00:38:02 that marriage is meant to establish. Further, at the societal or civilizational level, marriage is

00:38:08 not merely a private affection. It's the foundation of peoplehood. It creates continuity of worship,

00:38:14 of language, of norms, of inheritance. When marriages routinely cross deep religious,

00:38:19 racial, and cultural boundaries, they tend not to strengthen community. In fact, they ordinarily

00:38:25 dissolve it. The biblical vision of marriage is ordered and communal. It assumes that what

00:38:32 is joined together shares not only affection, but a common life rooted in a shared belief,

00:38:36 shared culture, and yes, a shared identity. And it is on that foundation, biological reality,

00:38:42 creational order, and the covenantal purpose of marriage that we can conclude that interracial 0.67

00:38:46 marriage ordinarily goes against

00:38:48 God's normative design for 0.52

00:38:50 nations, cultures, and humanity

00:38:52 more broadly.

00:38:55 Next one is going to be

00:38:56 Avery, 10 minutes.

00:38:58 Can you set that clock?

00:39:00 Clock helps.

00:39:03 Alright, it's coming. Just a second.

00:39:09 It's coming, it's coming.

00:39:10 One job, man.

00:39:16 all right all right all right man uh thank you for having us man uh enjoying the the perspectives

00:39:22 that i'm hearing um ruslan i i want to piggyback off of you because you set a foundation here

00:39:29 scripturally and you were quoting scripture and so that i think that that is extremely important

00:39:34 in this conversation that we if we're talking about like he said if we're talking about whether

00:39:38 or not this goes against god's normative design well we find god's design within scripture not

00:39:44 with we make up, not with our own preference or position, arbitrary, you know, thoughts. It's

00:39:49 with scripture. So I think that we should start off with one, how does God view the foreigner?

00:39:55 How does he view someone who is not a native? And this is what we have in Leviticus chapter 19,

00:40:00 verse 33 and 34. It says, if a stranger lives as a foreigner with you in your land,

00:40:05 you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you 1.00

00:40:12 as the native born among you, and you shall love him as yourself. Let's go to Leviticus chapter 24

00:40:19 verse 22. It says, you shall have one kind of law for the foreigner as well as the native born.

00:40:26 So what we're seeing with the scripture is that one with God's intent, with God's narrative,

00:40:32 the foreigner, the one who clings to him, the one who loves him is the same as a natural born

00:40:38 Israelite who he gave the covenants to in the first place. They're the same. They're one in the

00:40:42 same, even though there are physical and cultural distinctions, but they are one in the same

00:40:47 in God's eyes, one law. We got Numbers chapter 15, verses 15 to 16. It says,

00:40:54 for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and the stranger who lives as a foreigner, 0.94

00:41:00 a statute forever throughout your generations. As you are, so the foreigner shall be before 0.99

00:41:09 Yahweh. One law, one ordinance shall be for you and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner 1.00

00:41:16 with you. That is Numbers chapter 15, verses 15 to 16. So again, we see this isn't just a 0.72

00:41:23 temporary thing. This is forever. It says there's one statute that is shared with the

00:41:30 stranger and the native born throughout your generations forever, God says. This looks like

00:41:36 God is establishing how he feels and how he cares about the foreigner, those who have physically

00:41:42 distinct traits with Israel. Let's see again, we got Ezekiel chapter 47, verse 22 to 23.

00:41:51 It says, you shall divide it by lot, talking about the land, you shall divide it by lot for

00:41:57 an inheritance to you and to the aliens who live among you who will father children among you then 0.87

00:42:04 they shall be to you as the native born among the children of Israel they shall have inheritance 0.71

00:42:10 with you among the tribes of Israel in whatever tribe the stranger lives there shall you give him

00:42:17 his inheritance says the Lord Yahweh so we see that even the stranger is able to get an inheritance 0.61

00:42:23 among Israel, even though they are of, I guess what we would say, a different race. But yet, 0.85

00:42:29 before the eyes of God, they are seen as one in the same, despite the cultural and even genetic

00:42:35 differences, right? So what do we see here then? In 1 Kings 11, we see what is the type of,

00:42:45 you know, condemnation against intermarriage that God displays, that God condemns. We see that

00:42:53 Solomon falls to this because he falls, he marries foreign women. And as a result of this, 1.00

00:42:59 the foreign women lead him astray. They lead him away from God. So what kind of intermarriages 1.00

00:43:06 does God not allow? He does not allow the ones that will lead you to idolatry, the ones who are

00:43:11 not in the same spiritual position as you that are going after different gods and idols. But if

00:43:20 If they go after Yahweh, if they believe in Yahweh, then they are that it's permissible. 0.99

00:43:25 It's OK. It's not a sin. And it's actually part of God's design. 0.57

00:43:29 It doesn't go against it. So let's see here.

00:43:33 So we have a few examples of this. We have in Ezekiel.

00:43:38 I'm sorry, not in Ezekiel. We have in Ezra. In Ezra, chapter 10, we have Ezra going against the intermarriage of the Israelites.

00:43:49 And this is what we have to say. Hold on just one second. This is what we have in Ezra. Ezra chapter 9 and we have Ezra chapter 9 verse 1. It says,

00:44:01 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken your commandments. Which commandment was this? Which you commanded by your servants, the prophets, saying the land that you are entering to take possession of it is a land impure with the impurity of the peoples of the lands.

00:44:22 why is it because of their genetic traits no he says it with their abominations they have filled 0.97

00:44:30 it from end to end with their uncleanliness therefore so here's what it is this is the

00:44:36 reason why therefore do not give your daughters to their sons neither take their daughters for

00:44:43 your sons and never seek their peace or prosperity that you may be strong and eat the good of the

00:44:49 and leave it for an inheritance for your children forever skipping down to the 14th 13 and 14th 0.99

00:44:55 verse it says shall we break your commandments again and intermarry with the peoples who practice 0.99

00:45:03 these abominations so you see what it is it has to do with their spiritual posture not their genetic 0.98

00:45:11 traits it has nothing to do with that the condemnation of intermarriage that god has in 0.99

00:45:16 his scripture go it goes against the foreigners who will lead you away from the worship of the

00:45:21 true God let's see again we have uh Exodus chapter 34 where we see the original commandment it says 1.00

00:45:27 be sure to keep what I am commanding you this day behold I am going to drive out the Amorite before 0.96

00:45:32 you the Canaanite the Hittite the the the the Paris is like the Paris you know you guys know 1.00

00:45:37 what I'm talking about sorry to say these words but all these nations y'all know what I'm saying

00:45:42 But what does he say? He says, he says, for God is a jealous God, lest you cut a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods.

00:45:56 And one of them invites you to eat of the sacrifice and you take some of their daughters for your sons and his daughters and his daughters play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.

00:46:10 You shall make for yourself no molten gods.

00:46:15 That's Exodus chapter 34, verses 11 to 17.

00:46:17 Deuteronomy 7, verse 6. 0.98

00:46:19 Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them. 0.99

00:46:22 You shall not give your daughters to their sons, 0.98

00:46:24 nor shall you take their daughters for your sons 0.66

00:46:27 because they will turn your sons away from following me 0.73

00:46:33 and they will serve other gods.

00:46:36 Then the anger of Yahweh will be kindled against you

00:46:39 and he will quickly destroy you what do we see here again every time we see a condemnation 0.91

00:46:45 with the with an intermarriage with a foreigner it has to do with the spiritual posture of the 0.54

00:46:51 foreigner it has nothing to do with their genetics it has nothing to do with the way they look it

00:46:56 has nothing to do with their background and culture it has to do with their spiritual

00:47:01 posture will they lead you away from the true god or not which is why we have examples of

00:47:07 foreigners into marriage where it's not condemned and this isn't these aren't exceptions this is

00:47:14 just God's God's command of be fruitful and multiply male and female he has made them not

00:47:20 a particular race he's made them for a particular race and you know it's male and female he created

00:47:25 them in his image gave them the command to be fruitful and multiply we got we gave examples

00:47:31 of Ruth. We got Rahab. We got the Moabite woman that Moses married. We got, oh, a beautiful example

00:47:38 with the, in 1st Chronicles chapter 2, we have Shashan, who the context is counting the line

00:47:45 of Judah. In order to preserve the line of Judah, Shashan, unfortunately, he didn't have any sons.

00:47:51 However, he had an Egyptian slave and he only had daughters. So what did he do? He married his 0.68

00:47:56 egyptian male slave to one of the daughters and the line continued if this goes against god's 0.64

00:48:03 normative plan then there's no way that the line of judah which our messiah our lord our great god

00:48:09 and king comes from in the flesh there's no way that this will be able to continue it will be 0.99

00:48:14 diluted because there's somebody who is of a different race in the line so what do we see 0.98

00:48:19 then we with all of these examples we have explicit examples where god condemns it because

00:48:25 of the spiritual posture, not because of culture and race. And what does the Bible say on this?

00:48:30 The Bible says this in Galatians chapter three, verse 26. It says, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

00:48:36 There's neither slave nor free man. There is neither male or female, but for you are all one

00:48:41 in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are of Abraham's seed, heirs according

00:48:46 to the promise, not according to your flesh, right? We got Colossians chapter three, verse 0.83

00:48:51 8 to 11 we'll just read 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between greek and jew

00:48:57 circumcised and uncircumcised barbarian sithian slave and free man but christ is all and in all

00:49:04 and then last but not least first corinthians 7 39 it says a wife is bound as long as her husband

00:49:09 lives but if her husband has fallen asleep she is free to be married to whom she wishes

00:49:16 only in the Lord. All right. That's 10 minutes. Thank you. Last one is five minutes on the clock

00:49:24 for Wesley. All right. I'll watch for that clock to be set and I'll jump right in. Yeah, we're

00:49:28 going to wait for a sec. I got 10. We can count it down to five. We know math. I'm going to go

00:49:33 ahead and start. So for the ending here, I'd like to lay down a foundation for what it is specifically

00:49:38 we mean by race. The thesis statement specifies interracial marriage. What is interracial marriage?

00:49:44 Race, in its simplest definition, simply means common descent.

00:49:48 People of a given race share a common ancestor at a relatively recent point,

00:49:54 as distinguished from other lineages that do not share that same ancestry.

00:49:58 We all share Adam as the ultimate head of humanity, the first human, and Eve, the mother of all living.

00:50:03 Thus, there is a sense in which one can say Adam is the head of the human race.

00:50:07 But just because there is one ultimate common lineage

00:50:10 does not mean that there are not additional, meaningful, more recent shared ancestries.

00:50:17 Thousands of years more recently from Adam, every individual in the world, every human being,

00:50:21 is a descendant of one of Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, or Japheth, or they are a mix of two or three of 0.83

00:50:27 them. Europeans, for example, they are the offsprings of Japheth, who migrated north to the

00:50:32 coastland. Asians and Middle Eastern peoples descended from Shem. Africans descended from Ham, 0.99

00:50:37 who went south. It is important to understand that within each broad lineage, those big three 0.94

00:50:41 buckets, there can be further specificity. Within Europeans, for example, there are the Germanics,

00:50:46 the French, the Scottish, the Spanish, the Southeastern, and the Slavic-influenced Europeans.

00:50:51 These are people with different languages, cultures, diets, habits, and occupying different

00:50:56 geography that have been shaped to be biologically unique. They are not just distinct in practice

00:51:02 or culture. They are distinct inherently. Traits such as height, bone structure, intelligence,

00:51:08 skin tone, body fat and muscle composition, immune systems, and more have all been shaped by

00:51:12 the geography, the culture, the diet, climate, and religion. And so race is our shorthand way

00:51:18 of speaking of groups of people that are biologically related. They've been shaped by

00:51:23 the same factors over time. I imagine at some point the crux of this debate will come down

00:51:29 to this question. If all other factors, culture, religion, were made equal, there's no unequal

00:51:35 yoking between unbelievers or between individuals that share little in common, would it still be

00:51:40 our position that interracial marriage is not God's normative design? To which we would answer,

00:51:46 yes. God ordered the descendants of Adam to be fruitful, multiply, and spread over the face of

00:51:52 the world. In doing so, God knew that those families would eventually come to look, act,

00:51:57 and talk in very different ways, even if sin never entered the world. After the flood, God

00:52:02 repeats the order to man to spread out and to fill the earth. Shortly after, man rebels at Babel, 0.89

00:52:08 gathering together to build a tower to the sky, insisting we will not be distinct, unique, we will

00:52:14 not disperse. God judges them with the confusion of language, making them spread out and become

00:52:20 unique. The unique traits that human beings acquire are God's design. He designed blonde hair,

00:52:25 high cheekbones, blue eyes, redheads, and thousands of other unique variations, and the

00:52:30 mechanism, that is lineage, that passes them down generation after generation. He made a world that

00:52:36 optimized Kenyans for endurance, Arctic peoples for cold survival, and equator populations for

00:52:41 the relentless sun. I, for one, I'd like to go on the record and say, I think that God's design

00:52:45 is very good. None of us here want to see the distinctiveness of any people erased. If God did

00:52:50 not want geography and diet and religion to make people unique, he would not have designed the

00:52:56 world that way. He would not have made traits from parents to children, but he did, and he required

00:53:00 that men spread out so that they would form those unique peoples, languages, and races. The only way

00:53:06 I know how to defend the distinctiveness of the peoples God has shaped in the face of the earth

00:53:11 is by asserting that God did not design interracial marriage to be normative. If interracial marriage 0.88

00:53:17 was normative, by this time of the gospel age, all differences between peoples would be flattened. 0.99

00:53:22 We would resemble Babel more than Revelation 7-9. For there to be every tribe, tongue,

00:53:27 and nation in heaven on the final day, they have to actually still exist here on earth first. 1.00

00:53:34 At a large enough scale, interracial marriage would destroy the uniqueness of the Europeans, 0.98

00:53:38 the South Americans, the Japanese, the Inuit Eskimos, and every other people group that 0.95

00:53:43 practiced it at large enough scale, which is why, coincidentally, many peoples don't. White people,

00:53:49 which are as low as 10% of the world's population after two world wars, would be practically extinct 0.76

00:53:54 in a few generations if interracial marriage was adopted at scale. Thus, we take the affirmative, 1.00

00:53:59 arguing that interracial marriage, while permissible, is not God's ordinary design for 0.86

00:54:04 humanity, and that it is good and right for people to maintain their uniqueness by ordinarily 0.85

00:54:09 marrying within their own ethnicity nation and race all right there you have it there's all the

00:54:15 opening statements that's about 40 minutes we did it everybody everybody stuck to their time i'm

00:54:20 impressed by that so um that is all the opening statements uh wes and antonio were five minutes

00:54:26 each because we've got three guys on our side but i didn't want to it's like a father having to pick

00:54:30 which one of his kids that he has to shoot in the backyard i've got two co-hosts and i didn't want

00:54:34 you know tell one of them sorry you can't be on the show so uh they used to uh five minutes and

00:54:39 then you know uh russell and avery got to do 10 so it's 20 minutes each uh what we're going to do

00:54:43 now is go to a quick commercial break and then we'll go into the discussion portion of uh this

00:54:48 informal debate it is a debate but but we're not it's not completely you know link is lincoln

00:54:53 douglas style debate uh so it's going to be an informal discussion going back and forth but first

00:54:59 we're going to go to a commercial break and then we'll see you right after that here in the united

00:55:03 States of America, we believe that we're blessed in this nation with an abundance of resources

00:55:08 and that it's our God-given duty to exercise wise stewardship over them for the flourishing

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00:56:17 all right we are back okay so we're gonna discuss going off of what was said in the opening

00:56:25 statements and those kind of things i i would like to if you guys will allow me i would like to

00:56:29 respond to two things first. So first, you brought up the old clips. I feel like I've got to get that

00:56:34 out of the way, right? It's kind of an elephant in the room. So everything that I said in those

00:56:38 clips is exactly what I'm saying now. It's not. It's not. No, it's not. There's no chance. Right.

00:56:45 And I'm not going to treat people like they're stupid. That's not true. What Ruslan is showing, 1.00

00:56:50 that was from 2022. And then he just reminded me during that commercial break. And it's not

00:56:54 public record but i'm i'm a christian pastor i'm not a liar so uh he said in 2023 that's when i

00:56:59 came out and he was gracious and had me on his show to talk about theonomy talk about postmill

00:57:04 and uh and not on the air but afterwards we got sushi together which was awesome

00:57:08 and i reaffirmed the basic tenets of the same thing i was because i told you my wife was black

00:57:13 and that's right yeah well and i met her when we walked up in your driveway i think she came out

00:57:17 and said hi so anyways uh so as recent as 2023 but i'll i'll strengthen your argument do you

00:57:22 one better um because i know me um i i thought what you just heard with those clips that russon

00:57:28 played during his uh opening statement uh that was basically you know there's some nuances and

00:57:33 developments evolution you know but um you know over the which we we deny macro evolution um but

00:57:39 over over you know some some nuances and developments over the last few years but i

00:57:44 would say that the position i'm articulating today is a recent development this is something

00:57:49 that I've come to the conviction of, I would say probably in the last year. And so I'm willing to

00:57:54 admit that. So what I would say with those past things is I'll say what I've said. Our audience

00:57:58 knows this because I've said it several times because they've picked up, you know, like, hey,

00:58:02 this isn't always what you believe. You know, how do you account for that? You believe one thing,

00:58:05 now you believe another. I find it strange. I think it's like a curious, it's an interesting

00:58:11 brag when someone says, you know what, for the last 20 years, I haven't changed on anything.

00:58:19 I've been consistent.

00:58:20 I've held the exact same positions for two decades.

00:58:24 To which my response would be, for the last two decades, you haven't grown at all?

00:58:28 You haven't improved at all?

00:58:30 You haven't learned anything at all?

00:58:32 You haven't been sanctified at all?

00:58:33 You haven't grown at all?

00:58:35 Why are we bragging about that?

00:58:37 So, you know, Matt Walsh, somebody got him on this recently.

00:58:39 And he was like, yeah, I learned.

00:58:42 I grew.

00:58:43 I changed.

00:58:44 So I'll admit that right out of the gate.

00:58:46 So that's my answer.

00:58:47 That's all I got for that.

00:58:48 That's all I can explain.

00:58:49 But you're absolutely right.

00:58:50 There's an inconsistency.

00:58:52 So can I just...

00:58:52 Yeah, go for it.

00:58:53 So today, if a young black brother, maybe your half-brother, pulls up, loves Jesus,

00:59:00 loves the Lord, loves your local church.

00:59:02 I don't know.

00:59:02 How old are your daughters?

00:59:03 I don't want to make it weird.

00:59:04 They're very young.

00:59:05 Okay, so let's just say fast forward 10 years down the road.

00:59:09 You got a cousin that loves Jesus.

00:59:11 Man, he loves the Lord.

00:59:12 He's a post-mill, Christian nationalist, theophonist, natural law, all those things. 0.96

00:59:19 Doesn't like Israel. 0.52

00:59:20 Right, doesn't like Israel. 1.00

00:59:21 He hates the Jews. 0.99

00:59:22 Checking all the boxes. 0.99

00:59:23 All the things.

00:59:24 And your cousin and your brother, your half-brother, he's full black. 0.82

00:59:27 He shows up 10 years, 15 years, and he starts dating your daughter. 0.74

00:59:31 Are you now saying, hey, I don't think you guys should get married?

00:59:33 And they love each other, and they love the Lord.

00:59:35 That's a great question.

00:59:35 And they have culture in common, and they're very similar.

00:59:38 Are you now, like, did your position change in that regard?

00:59:42 Because you said if your daughter brings home a black man, you're like, praise the Lord, he loves Jesus.

00:59:47 Awesome.

00:59:47 Right.

00:59:48 Great question.

00:59:48 So this is how we respond.

00:59:49 First, just to make it just clear for our audience, that would never happen.

00:59:53 And the reason that would never happen is no young man will date any of my daughters without first coming through me.

00:59:59 We don't do dating in the Webin household.

01:00:01 So it would be courtship.

01:00:02 They would have to talk to me first.

01:00:04 So it's not like, oh, I'd find out six months in, oh, my daughter's dating someone?

01:00:07 I didn't even know.

01:00:08 So we're not libs.

01:00:09 So we don't do that.

01:00:10 So that would never happen.

01:00:11 Number two, this is, my wife and I were talking about this, you know, because I've had to disciple my wife and, you know, like for her to know, okay, what are some of these developments?

01:00:20 Can you walk me through it?

01:00:21 You know, because these are new things.

01:00:22 This is not what we were taught.

01:00:24 Like a couple of years ago, when you hear me espousing those things, you play those clips, you know who I'm thinking of in my mind as I'm saying that?

01:00:30 Who I still respect greatly, but who I'm thinking of Votie Bauckham.

01:00:33 I love Votie Bauckham, right?

01:00:35 I got to have, I was honored to have one public conversation with him, uh, an episode on Christian

01:00:40 nationalism and one private phone call. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to talk about the

01:00:44 private phone call because we've had enough people saying, well, Charlie, uh, Kirk texted me private,

01:00:48 you know, or I had a private phone call. I'm sick of that crap with all the stuff online right now. 0.95

01:00:53 You know how many people are saying like, Oh, why? Well, he personally told me this right before he 0.98

01:00:58 died. So no, that, um, I had one private phone call. It was great. And we did not talk about

01:01:03 interracial marriage so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna talk about that but here's the deal i'm

01:01:06 thinking of votie bacham i'm thinking of him saying one race the human race you know and and

01:01:11 a few years ago i would have been like yeah what race the human race you get them votie get those

01:01:17 races and that would have been my position and i i've developed since then so if a so in this

01:01:23 scenario if a young black man came to me first because we do courting he'd have to go through me

01:01:28 and he wants to uh to date my daughter i'm always going to consider her interest if she's not

01:01:35 interested we're not doing it you know so i'm going to talk to her i i would consider those

01:01:39 interests those kinds of things but in terms of would i give the green light as i was walking

01:01:43 my wife through this and she brought up the same kind of question and she said voting you know

01:01:47 that's who she used in this analogy she was like what if it was um you know one of voting's sons

01:01:52 and then it's one of our daughters and i said see that's and this is important for the debate

01:01:56 the distinction between two different categories, ethnicity and race. And I believe they overlap,

01:02:02 but we're going to use them as two different terms. Ethnicity, I would say, is it contains

01:02:07 the racial components, but it's much broader because ethnicity is not just biological. It's

01:02:12 not just ancestry and lineage, but it also encompasses language, liturgy. So I do L's like 0.80

01:02:18 loves, language, liturgy, being worship, religion, those kinds of things,

01:02:23 you know customs culture traditions all these things come in law yeah all these things come

01:02:30 into play with ethnicity and in the case of Votie Bauckham's son it would be and this is just the

01:02:36 reality I'm not excited about it it makes me sad but it is the reality Votie Bauckham's son in these 0.98

01:02:41 United States of America in the year of our Lord 2026 would be one of the rare black men young

01:02:48 black men who actually shares for the most part virtually to a t the same ethnicity as my white

01:02:55 daughters right meaning same religion same worldview same traditions both celebrate

01:03:02 thanksgiving both you know like christmas same all that traditions customs um uh heritage being

01:03:09 like he's he's not a black nigerian who came here 15 minutes ago but like has been in america heritage

01:03:15 black american that has been here tracing his ancestry back for a couple centuries so in that

01:03:19 regard and the reformed baptist i'm reformed baptist the doctrinal things would be aligned

01:03:24 all those kind of things so that would be one of the rare individuals the reality is and i don't

01:03:28 think you guys are going to push back on this the reality is i would say that about 90 to 95 percent

01:03:33 of the black church in america is heretical has okay terrible doctrinal views so what you're

01:03:40 Are you conceding that you would let your daughter, Mary,

01:03:43 vote her back and son 10 years in the future? 0.56

01:03:45 Is that what you're saying?

01:03:45 What I'm saying is that that would be permissible.

01:03:48 I would not encourage it, though.

01:03:49 You would not encourage it.

01:03:50 Would you discourage it?

01:03:53 It depends.

01:03:55 On what?

01:03:56 Well, because, so here's the scenario. 0.84

01:03:57 For every young black man that meets that mold, the ethnic, not racial, 0.70

01:04:02 but ethnic mold, they have the same religion, the same traditions,

01:04:05 the same customs, the same language, all that kind of stuff.

01:04:07 for every one of those currently right now in not just america but in my local church

01:04:12 there would be several young white men who would also meet those exact standards that's not what

01:04:17 we're asking would you discourage the black man who meets those standards would you discourage 0.54

01:04:22 your daughter or that relationship what i'm saying is that if all things are equal black man white 0.80

01:04:29 man with my daughter being white if all things are equal i would encourage her towards a white 0.59

01:04:35 young man would you discourage her from the black man it's a simple yes yeah yeah so you

01:04:42 would discourage her yeah as opposed to marrying a young white no no no you're creating a false

01:04:49 binary i'm saying in a vacuum there's only one of that a black man goes to your church loves jesus 0.65

01:04:54 in a vacuum yes that black man is the only suitor that there is that i would want my daughter to 0.91

01:05:01 get married okay so you would prefer marriage to my daughter being alone okay age is a huge factor 0.85

01:05:06 as i think about it for my children as well if you're a 40 year old man you came to christ just

01:05:10 a couple years ago and to be honest there's not a lot of gals lining up and you say hey here's this

01:05:15 gal we're not closely related but she's a christian she's lovely she wants to marry me and have a

01:05:20 family that is very much so different than say a man who's 22 who's upwardly socially mobile

01:05:25 saying i'm interested in this for these reasons so age as well also comes in yeah i don't want to

01:05:31 in the weeds of age. I think it's important to say just at the outset, as we think about even

01:05:35 the premise of the debate, is we use this word ordinarily. And it's an important word because

01:05:39 we actually, there's two levels of analysis. There's the universal, and you could say a

01:05:44 principle or something that's normative. It happens generally speaking. And then you can

01:05:48 get into the particulars, right? Look at individual contexts. And what I think it's more helpful to

01:05:54 stay at the frame of the universal or the principle, because what we'll do if we just

01:05:58 keep pulling up examples of like what if there was this and this and then and then i get you

01:06:02 totally i i understand there's also a lot in that word generally there's all you guys are sneaking

01:06:07 in a lot of that word generally that's why i asked you but i put it there intentionally i understand

01:06:11 not to be sneaky but just to say there are general principles yes general principles are not

01:06:16 necessarily universal principles real quick i think you have something but just just a point

01:06:20 of clarity um i think we're using our words a little different okay so when you say ethnicity

01:06:25 i think ancestry like 23andme dna so when you're saying ethnicity are you using it more like

01:06:30 nationality like american ethnicity is american like a black man who loves jesus is a american

01:06:36 ethnicity is that so biblically i would say you know nation nacio that that would actually be

01:06:41 more more in uh in line with what we think of as race okay when i say ethnicity i'm using like

01:06:49 steven wolf's definition of that ethnicity so i would argue um that you know that like i want

01:06:54 america as a christian nationalist to be mono ethnic this is what i mean by that um i want

01:06:59 everyone in america that doesn't mean mono racial although i would like america to be predominantly

01:07:04 white i would because that's the history that's the heritage sounds boring it's currently those

01:07:11 are our people there are people the pioneers who came and they they spread out they endured the

01:07:16 hardship they created the most prosperous nation the world has ever seen yeah like those are my

01:07:21 people and to say, and then the future

01:07:23 looks nothing like them. It has no continuity,

01:07:25 no resemblance.

01:07:26 I wouldn't say that. Is the Sudan boring?

01:07:29 I'm not going against this. Is Japan boring?

01:07:31 No, I'm just saying. I'm not

01:07:33 going against this idea of

01:07:34 the great work

01:07:37 that a particular

01:07:38 people have done or put in.

01:07:41 But you're saying

01:07:43 that you would

01:07:45 want America

01:07:47 to be majority 0.93

01:07:49 white. You would want them to be 1.00

01:07:51 majority white if you had and this was what was was interesting if you had a a black person who 1.00

01:07:59 met your criteria standard wise and character wise and spiritually that you would discourage

01:08:05 your daughter from marrying this individual if if we're not in a vacuum if we're not in isolation

01:08:10 then ordinarily for every black man who would fit my criteria currently right now let's just be

01:08:15 honest for every black man who would meet my theological criteria heritage criteria all those

01:08:21 kind of things moral criteria behavioral criteria he's upstanding for every black man like that

01:08:26 there would be at least 20 white men so but but why would you why would you discourage against

01:08:33 the the black one who meets your because if both options are viable there are 20 white men who

01:08:39 fit the bill and one black man who fits the bill then all things being equal i would prefer for my

01:08:46 grandchildren to look like me okay and so it's a preference let me just let me just chime in we

01:08:51 further deny that sovereign nations must only be composed of mono-ethnic populations therefore as

01:08:56 christian nationalists we utter utterly repudiate sinful ethnic partiality in all its forms so

01:09:02 you signed this statement denying a country being a mono-ethnic population okay but you signed this

01:09:08 christian nationalist statement this sounds like a clear contradiction which you just said which

01:09:11 you would prefer to be monoethnic. Prefer, must. Yeah. Those are two different words. Okay. So, 0.98

01:09:16 so that you don't think that's a bit of a contradiction in a statement you've, you've

01:09:19 signed here? No, I don't. We want America to be monoethnic. Again, that does not mean monoracial

01:09:25 or monocolor. So when I say monoethnic, I'm thinking of someone like Clarence Thomas,

01:09:30 who is a Christian American man. He's a Christian American man. I don't, I don't want people who are

01:09:37 from haiti and got here two weeks ago but if america was not monoracial right there are some 0.83

01:09:43 black people there's hispanic people there's some asian people and majority white people

01:09:48 but they're all christian they all speak english i don't walk into stores and see seven different

01:09:53 languages i understand your that's what i mean by monoethnic okay so you would prefer it but it must

01:09:58 not be i wouldn't say it has to be in order for it to be a christian nation okay you don't think

01:10:03 that's incongruent and incoherent no okay yeah you have when you get to the empire status i think of

01:10:09 russia for example you're going to be the composition of a number of different people

01:10:12 from different geographies and your challenges have enough of a shared identity but you also

01:10:16 don't want to destroy the distinctives and so america's pretty big it's a lot different than

01:10:21 a nation like georgia for example georgia will probably mostly monoracial and monoethnic america

01:10:26 people could identify as america that would be great but we do recognize you have parts of like

01:10:30 i said the heritage blacks in the south the hispanics mostly in texas and california you're

01:10:35 going to have some differences in there and you don't have to as the christian nation come in and

01:10:39 say and now all these distinctions have to be flattened there will be no more soccer you can

01:10:43 say no we recognize 350 million people there's going to be little italy and there's going to

01:10:47 be little chinatown but and you don't have to say those things can't exist i would like to get rid

01:10:52 of soccer they call it they call it football soccer everywhere else soccer is a deceitful

01:10:59 tactic to get people to just run long distances for no reason go ahead i want to ask you the same

01:11:05 question so like because you are a more unique you know side of this team yeah you know so when

01:11:11 it comes to how you're viewing this um what would you i don't i i will i don't know what to present

01:11:18 to you what what's because you're you're interracial you're black and white yeah so how would

01:11:22 you handle a black or white um person trying to come and let's say you had a daughter or or vice 0.54

01:11:29 versa a son and they're trying to come in into your family yeah it's a good question um and one

01:11:34 actually that is it's really important for the purpose of this conversation because people like

01:11:39 me are the product of kind of what we're going back and forth over and and i yeah it presents a

01:11:43 bunch of quandaries i think being biracial being mixed race whatever you want to call it

01:11:48 I would say I would get back to the sort of the core theme of the position. It's this idea and

01:11:54 we, you know, in my opening statement, I rooted it in creational order, but it's this idea that

01:11:58 marriage is founded on this idea of compatibility or more specific word could be correspondence.

01:12:04 So I have three children. My children are 70. I'm married to a white woman. My children are 75%

01:12:09 white. I believe a shared identity, a component of shared of your identity is your race. I think 0.64

01:12:17 you would probably admit that uh as well right like uh when you you talk to people and you say

01:12:21 yeah i'm black and this and that black that blackness carries some significance it carries

01:12:26 some meaning when you say it um and and so so having race as a component of shared identity

01:12:32 i have children who are 75 percent white they certainly i if you saw them you would believe

01:12:37 they presented as white uh you'd be hard-pressed to like think they had uh they were set 25 percent

01:12:42 black for example um i would encourage my children to find a spouse that is compatible with them

01:12:47 that is not only culturally and we think about ethnos and i think my definition of ethnos

01:12:53 encapsulates basically language culture exactly what sort of joel is describing but not only that

01:12:58 i think the shared identity um as well is is a part of that and i think in the same way that

01:13:03 black people can have a sort of a blackness a black element to their identity white people

01:13:08 should have a black element or sorry a white element there's some whites that got a black 0.58

01:13:12 element yeah that's definitely true uh so so my my position would would be to encourage my child 0.91

01:13:18 to marry a white woman on the basis of that um and really yeah even because it sounds like they

01:13:23 have both no well his kids look very white for his kids are i mean they're two of my children have

01:13:30 they're uh yeah they're very white they're very i'll just say that they're like the phenotype is

01:13:36 is white and they their their mother is white their father is half white i mean you can do

01:13:41 the math on that they're 75 would you question for you right so i want to ask you this question

01:13:45 because i've i've you know being mixed race i've spent my time around within the black community

01:13:50 and black culture and i'm pretty familiar with it in that sense um do you do you believe that

01:13:57 i guess uh your your black the black american culture is distinct from the white american

01:14:02 culture um in a way yeah would you say would it be safe to say that predominantly the average

01:14:09 black person you meet on the street is going you're going to be able to pick up in their

01:14:13 uh sort of how they articulate how that you know how they talk we're using our hands where

01:14:17 that that person comes from a distinct culture from say like suburban you know uh westchester

01:14:24 connecticut yeah yeah right and so i i think there's an element of that that uh and in the

01:14:29 way of like race actually serves as a proxy like we we can talk about all these examples like here's

01:14:34 all the elements of compatibility tradition custom where you grew up which is important for

01:14:38 compatibility and certainly an element and you have race and the idea that you like solve for

01:14:42 all of these all things being equal and the votie bockham situation uh but like race is the only

01:14:47 distinctive and i would just say experientially is is a very very rare thing like i've rarely met

01:14:53 a black person who was like uh who had like no sort of uh ties if you will to a distinct culture

01:15:00 from white culture do you he's wearing turtleneck right i mean i wear turtleneck yeah there you go

01:15:06 i would just ask like man you guys this is like a texas thing because i think you go to other parts

01:15:12 of the country and you'll discover that there's a way more culturally cultural overlap meaning if

01:15:16 you come to oceanside vista california you're gonna have way more in common with a person that

01:15:20 went to the same high school group

01:15:22 in the same community,

01:15:23 listened to the same music,

01:15:24 comes from a similar family,

01:15:25 comes from the same surface.

01:15:26 That would be what you're describing

01:15:28 as like a micro-ethnicity,

01:15:29 even more particular.

01:15:31 And you're right.

01:15:31 So if people have both grown up,

01:15:33 not just in the same nation,

01:15:35 but they've both grown up

01:15:36 in the same county.

01:15:37 Yeah, they're going to have

01:15:38 way more in common.

01:15:39 And I only use that as a proxy.

01:15:41 So the ethnic overlap

01:15:41 can be extreme,

01:15:44 like a lot of that.

01:15:44 But do you see my point, though?

01:15:46 I'm saying that those two people

01:15:48 are going to have substantially

01:15:48 more in common

01:15:49 if they're from the same region than marrying a white woman from Nebraska.

01:15:54 Oh, sure.

01:15:55 So if we zoom in to, what did you say, Oceanside, for example,

01:15:58 and then you have like a...

01:16:00 I remember Oceanside.

01:16:00 I've never been there, so forgive me for...

01:16:02 You should come visit.

01:16:03 Well, maybe I might.

01:16:04 It's nice.

01:16:06 But anyway, so...

01:16:06 It was nice.

01:16:07 It's not as nice.

01:16:09 We're still doing the Lord's Word now.

01:16:10 All right.

01:16:10 Yeah, so I say that because I think, again,

01:16:15 the disconnect is very like very broad definitions of the word race when when you meet a lot of

01:16:22 people and travel a lot and experience a lot you'll start discovering that man Ethiopian 0.56

01:16:26 second generation evangelicals are very different than descendants of slaves in America yeah you'll 0.87

01:16:33 discover that Ghanaian people are very different than Ethiopian people you'll discover I'm Armenian 0.54

01:16:39 my mother's adopted by an Armenian family but she's Russian you'll discover there's a lot of

01:16:43 difference between Armenians and Russians. You'll discover there's a lot of difference between

01:16:46 Armenians and Armenians living in Azerbaijan. And then there's a lot of difference between Armenians

01:16:50 from there versus Armenians in Glendale. I have nothing in common with an Armenian woman that 1.00

01:16:55 grew up in Glendale. We have virtually zero in common culturally, even though we might both be

01:16:59 Christian, right? So I think what I'm saying is we're using these really broad definitions for

01:17:04 race, which like, you guys familiar when the word race even made it into the English language

01:17:09 approximately 16th century yeah 16th that's relatively modern right so if we're going to

01:17:13 rail against the leftists and the liberals for their definitions of gender and their definite

01:17:17 and all this nonsense that we're seeing from the left this is a relatively modern innovation for

01:17:21 this broadcast of hey there's blacks and there's whites and there's asians and then maybe a couple

01:17:26 of others but we don't know it again it falls apart because it's way more based on ethnicity

01:17:31 this is why we see tribes warring in parts of africa this is why you tell a persian they're

01:17:36 arab and they're going to be very upset at you you tell the arab they're persian or turk they're

01:17:40 going to be very upset at you so i think the distinctions is way more cultural and nuanced

01:17:44 than just these very broad categories categories you guys understand what i'm saying yes part of

01:17:49 the reason i would say that that race has at least the word the concept i think is old but at least

01:17:55 the word has has come into you know uh more regular use in language in recent times is is

01:18:02 partly because um of of the radical changes that we've made in the world like back in the day when

01:18:08 you say this person is of this nation um it it tended to mean that he's of of the same

01:18:15 biological characteristics cultural characteristics but now like because we have you know people have

01:18:23 moved and we have tons of people over here and tons of people over there and all the now you

01:18:28 If somebody says, well, I'm American, then the natural question is like, well, what kind of American are you?

01:18:35 What kind of American?

01:18:36 If I can't see them and I can't detect like an accent in their voice and they're just saying, I'm an American and I can't see them, I wouldn't really have a clue.

01:18:49 Right.

01:18:49 So do you see how it's arbitrary then?

01:18:51 Saying I'm an American is no different than someone saying I'm white.

01:18:54 What does that even mean?

01:18:55 Which white?

01:18:56 Irish? 0.61

01:18:56 Scottish?

01:18:57 Italian?

01:18:58 There was hierarchies within white folks when they came over, okay?

01:19:01 So what does that even mean? 0.89

01:19:02 Are Armenians white?

01:19:03 I don't know.

01:19:04 It depends on who you ask, right? 0.66

01:19:05 So are Armenians white?

01:19:06 These categories are way more divided when you travel outside of the United States and

01:19:11 you start discovering that people are actually married.

01:19:13 Japanese folks don't want to marry Chinese folks and it has nothing to do with race.

01:19:17 Zero to do with race. 0.83

01:19:18 Well, no, it is because they're distinct people occupying two different spaces.

01:19:21 But that's not race.

01:19:22 That's not race.

01:19:23 That's ethnicity and nationality. 0.96

01:19:25 They're biologically different from one another, whether it be in bone structure. 0.98

01:19:28 Yes, but there's white folks that are biologically different. 0.97

01:19:30 If you go northern, the white folks there love milk. 0.98

01:19:32 You go south, Europe, the white folks are lactose intolerant.

01:19:35 There's all sorts of disparities within races. 0.75

01:19:37 Sure, but...

01:19:39 But you understand that point.

01:19:40 The genetic disparities within races, oftentimes there's more disparities between white people

01:19:45 than there are between a black and a white person.

01:19:47 The intergroup versus between the groups in general.

01:19:49 So I come from Armenia, from the Caucasus Mountains.

01:19:54 I am an Armenian from the Caucasus Mountains.

01:19:56 I'm Caucasian?

01:19:58 Yeah?

01:19:59 Yeah.

01:19:59 I'm an original Caucasian. 0.98

01:20:00 You guys are all frauds as far as I'm concerned, right? 0.96

01:20:03 But you talk to some people, and Armenians aren't viewed as white, 0.98

01:20:07 depending on who you're talking to.

01:20:08 That's the confusing part about all this stuff.

01:20:10 And again, if God is a God of order, if God is a God of not making stuff confusing,

01:20:15 we're now getting into creating restrictions that Scripture does not clearly lay out.

01:20:20 And we can get back into the Scriptures if you guys want.

01:20:21 I'm glad you're emphasizing the distinctiveness and the lack of confusion, because my position,

01:20:25 as I laid it out, interracial marriage, if it was normative, let's say 50, 60 percent,

01:20:31 it would destroy those distinctions in a matter of generations. If you brought the people, 0.99

01:20:35 you said Armenia, I know there's Georgia kind of to the north of Iran. If you took all of those 0.82

01:20:39 people and they said, you know what, we're going to do it. It's going to be normative. It's going

01:20:42 to be ordinary. If they went ahead and did that, much of the distinctions, all of those distinctions

01:20:47 that you're talking about would actually be flattened. You would just kind of then have this

01:20:51 group of eastern europeans that all they didn't really have a identity or something shared from

01:20:56 the past your parents would go back to the homeland and say this doesn't look like anything

01:21:00 i recognize but this already doesn't look like anything we recognize because we were ethnically

01:21:03 cleansed from azabarjan because we are armenians exactly right ethnically cleansing not great

01:21:07 not great terrible thing that people you're saying there's ethnic cleansing happening through 0.97

01:21:11 interbreeding yes through third world migration into europe the rape of white women all across 0.98

01:21:17 northern europe yes yes you are having it's it's traumatic it's psychological terror for white 0.98

01:21:22 girls to think that they're going to be raped on the way to school like we all agree i'm not going 0.92

01:21:28 to you know paint you guys badly you all would agree that that's bad and we recognize it's 1.00

01:21:33 especially bad because these people that have nothing in common are coming in they're from a 0.95

01:21:37 different religion perpetuating terror on the native populace again you're conflating what 0.99

01:21:41 we're saying and you can jump in i don't want to keep going you're conflating that you think

01:21:45 we're arguing for mass migration. I never said you were. I know you're not. You're pointing to

01:21:49 these fringe examples that are awful. What's happening in Europe is terrible. What's happening

01:21:52 with the Muslims coming over there that do not assimilate to the culture is not good. That is 1.00

01:21:57 not what we're talking about. That is not the conversation that's being had. We are talking

01:22:00 about making hard lines where the scripture doesn't have any based on arbitrary standards

01:22:06 that we don't see played out in any sort of society throughout history up until 500 years ago.

01:22:11 I want to go to Avery, but I would just say what I'm arguing, I know you're not for mass

01:22:14 migration, but to say interracial marriage should be normative would have the same effect

01:22:18 long-term and short-term.

01:22:20 I didn't say it should be normative.

01:22:23 You're making the case that you're against it.

01:22:25 Yes, so I'm against it being normative because that would be a result.

01:22:28 Yeah, so what I'm saying is people can have preferences.

01:22:30 You want your kids to look white?

01:22:31 You want your kids to, you know, you're going to have a bunch of Mariah Carey's?

01:22:33 I'm not mad at you, okay?

01:22:34 If you want that, Joel, you want your daughter to, no one's mad at preference. 0.93

01:22:38 There's a lot of black folks that want their kids to be black.

01:22:39 No one's mad at preference.

01:22:41 And we haven't said you're mad at us for preference.

01:22:42 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:43 No, no, no.

01:22:43 I'm mad at you for preference.

01:22:44 yeah dang it the issue is when we take preference and we make it prescription that's the fundamental

01:22:51 flaw in your argument yeah but but real quick that's on both sides of the table just all right

01:22:56 so first the context the way that it came up against because you're right i use that word

01:23:00 against that's what started the whole well a lot and had you had you not said against joel i

01:23:04 wouldn't have said anything bro yeah it's my preference so let me so you crashed out you 0.80

01:23:08 crashed out by saying against oh no i didn't crash you you called her retarded you crashed 0.98

01:23:12 out bro oh she is retarded okay did you crash out no okay the average woman on social media is 0.98

01:23:18 retarded okay well let's next time we'll have you come back and we'll debate that that thesis 0.99

01:23:22 okay i might agree with never mind so here's the point she um uh there was a tweet 0.94

01:23:31 inner under christian nationalism interracial marriage will merit capital punishment 0.86

01:23:36 she responds this woman who is behaving retardedly she responds um or somebody says i wish we could 0.85

01:23:44 elon would show us the light who liked this this tweet interracial marriage under christian 0.88

01:23:48 nationalism will receive the death sentence i wish elon would show us who likes it and then

01:23:53 she responds and says definitely joel weapon and i say nope and then she says are you and this is

01:24:00 verbatim. Are you for or against? So given those two choices, for encouraging, promoting, advancing,

01:24:08 or against, discouraging, not normative, given those two options, then yes, I would be more

01:24:17 against than I am for. But you could have just said, hey, my preference is this. Now, let me

01:24:23 just add this to the thing. You said that you will lock arms or you see brothers in Christ that think

01:24:27 it's a sin and a perpetual sin not a perpetual sin but it's a one-time sin but and just to be

01:24:32 clear but you would you would you call brothers in christ folks who think it should it is a crime

01:24:36 it should be punished by the death penalty would you call them brothers in christ it depends so

01:24:41 because you know when you were going back and forth with samuel say there was people actually

01:24:44 posting that and again i don't i don't want to assume these are your buddies people that i know

01:24:48 okay but they're saying hey there's always people posting this would be you know punishable by death

01:24:54 in a Christian nationalist nation. 0.99

01:24:55 Right.

01:24:56 No, I'm aware.

01:24:56 Yeah, there are guys who think that.

01:24:58 Are you brothers?

01:24:59 Those are your brothers in Christ.

01:25:00 The only guys that I have any kind of relationship with,

01:25:04 friendship with, even acquaintance, interaction with,

01:25:07 and partnering with in this mission,

01:25:10 and it is my mission to achieve Christian nationalism

01:25:12 here in these United States of America.

01:25:14 All the guys on my team would either be in our category.

01:25:17 It's not a sin at all, but it's not normative.

01:25:20 It shouldn't be encouraged at the macro level,

01:25:22 But it's not a sin

01:25:24 It is permissible

01:25:24 Or they would hold the view

01:25:26 It is a sin 0.52

01:25:27 Likened to unbiblical divorce 0.96

01:25:30 And then remarriage 0.99

01:25:31 So the act is a sin 0.69

01:25:33 But once that new marriage has been established 0.96

01:25:36 We would say that is a valid marriage

01:25:37 Would you rebuke or condemn anyone who's pushing for 0.72

01:25:40 The death of people that are in an interracial marriage

01:25:42 I'm not going to police the internet 1.00

01:25:44 I'm not going to

01:25:45 So you're comfortable with it 0.99

01:25:48 These nuts, Groyper447

01:25:49 I'm not going to be in the chat

01:25:51 I'm not James White

01:25:53 He has time to do a dividing line

01:25:56 Over people with 15 followers on Twitter

01:25:58 And call them out

01:25:59 I don't have time for that

01:26:00 Would you categorically condemn it?

01:26:05 The idea that I should be executed 0.75

01:26:08 As a Christian nationalistic 0.88

01:26:09 You would condemn that 0.99

01:26:10 But that wasn't the original question

01:26:12 The first question was

01:26:13 Is that person a Christian?

01:26:15 That was your first question 1.00

01:26:16 So I would condemn it in the same way

01:26:19 i i would condemn uh sexual immorality any sin i i condemn any sin okay but not every sin makes

01:26:25 someone an unbeliever and so what you're asking is um whether or not i believe anybody could hold

01:26:32 that position and still be regenerate yeah i actually i said if you would call him a brother

01:26:36 in christ but that's what he's yeah regenerate brother in christ i i feel like that's that's

01:26:40 pretty pretty much the same and so that's why i was hesitant let the record stay i wasn't hesitant

01:26:44 because I'm trying to carve out allowances.

01:26:47 I meant condemning the mindset.

01:26:49 Yes, I would say, brother, that's not helpful.

01:26:53 I think that's immoral.

01:26:55 I don't support that.

01:26:56 I don't think you should be saying that.

01:26:58 But would I say for sure, that person who just said that is not a Christian.

01:27:03 I, the Protestant Pope, have ruled. 0.84

01:27:05 No, that's fair. 0.87

01:27:05 Go ahead.

01:27:06 That's what I'm saying.

01:27:07 No, I want to get into some of the scriptural things that we were talking about.

01:27:11 Because, again, we were talking about God's normative original design 0.57

01:27:18 Whether or not interracial marriages goes against that

01:27:23 So I would like to hear a scriptural basis for what God's original design is

01:27:30 Do we have a verse that tells us, you know

01:27:32 That's a great question

01:27:33 So here's how I respond

01:27:35 Are you pro-polygamy?

01:27:38 Am I pro-polygamy? No, I'm not

01:27:40 No

01:27:40 would you would you be against yeah i'm against that strong of language yeah he would say against

01:27:46 who says against oh i i do um so so you would say against now i love the scriptures that you brought

01:27:52 up because it's perfect for our argument so you said solomon for instance he had many wives and

01:27:57 many concubines and you were emphasizing and rightly so i agree with your argument that the

01:28:01 big problem with solomon and all these wives was that they were foreign and had a different skin 0.53

01:28:06 coat. No, they worshiped foreign gods, and they turned his heart away. The big problem that made 0.93

01:28:12 it actually sinful in the case of Solomon was that he was not, even as king, permitted to marry

01:28:18 foreign wives who were pagans who worshiped foreign gods. So it was a spiritual problem,

01:28:22 a spiritual adultery, and it ultimately turned his heart away. But here's the point. So we could

01:28:28 point to, for instance, now going to like Ezra, right? Because then you like, there's a polygamous 1.00

01:28:33 example, but then you gave interracial examples, Ezra 9, Ezra 10, Nehemiah 13, and what you were

01:28:39 saying is, look, it's not about the fact that they're a different race, it's the fact, right,

01:28:43 what is actually being condemned here, and you did a good job, I agree with you, what's really 1.00

01:28:47 being condemned here is that these people of a foreign race, they're not Christian, they worship 1.00

01:28:52 foreign gods, it's their spiritual idolatry, so this is what I would say, if we're logical, if 1.00

01:28:58 we're being consistent we can say um well what's expressly condemned in scripture is um marrying 0.97

01:29:05 someone of another race only in the instance that they actually are worshiping a false god it's

01:29:11 idolatry marrying not in the lord marrying someone who's not a christian so then i would use that and 0.62

01:29:16 i can make the same argument say polygamy is permissible because only what's condemned in

01:29:22 there's no scripture that condemns polygamy inherently outright but what's condemned is

01:29:27 someone like solomon who in his many marriages that's not inherently condemned what's specifically

01:29:32 condemned is that some of those marriages in his case many of them were to foreign wives who

01:29:37 worship foreign gods so i would use that same logic and i would say just like i said um interracial

01:29:43 marriage is biblically permissible but that it generally goes against god's ordinary or normative

01:29:50 design for cultures peoples and nations i could say the same thing you could say the same thing

01:29:54 about polygamy is biblically permissible but it ordinarily goes against right so if i'm in a

01:30:01 muslim nation a guy comes to the lord i'm not going to tell him if he has five wives that he 0.76

01:30:05 has to divorce four of them what i will tell him per scripture right we're getting to something

01:30:09 that is explicit in scripture per first uh timothy chapter three titus chapter one i'll say i'm sorry

01:30:16 you can't be an elder yeah so there must be but i actually would not say polygamy is inherently

01:30:21 sinful yeah so so so here is the thing if so we're categorizing polygamy as the exception to the rule

01:30:27 in the same way that we're categorizing interracial marriage as the exception to the rule the issue

01:30:31 with this joe is when you look at the new testament scripture there are prescriptions for someone in

01:30:36 leadership yes but those are prescriptions for anybody that's an elder deacon that's how all

01:30:40 christians should be should be must be yes yes and so they should be one woman men so now what 0.54

01:30:45 you're doing is with polygamy it is permitted but then it's clearly clarified in the new testament 0.88

01:30:50 that this is not a prescription, this is not okay, because we see evidence of that. The same thing

01:30:55 for Rahab's lying. We're not going to say, well, lying is permitted because Rahab lied, and therefore

01:30:59 lying. No, no, no. We're going to see that, generally speaking, Old and New Testament, there's

01:31:03 prohibitions against lying, so we see something that's here. You don't then do that. So the

01:31:07 epistles would have to then be clear, in the same way they're clear about polygamy, to not allow

01:31:12 mixed race or mixed ethnic or whatever you want to call it, marriage. We don't see that when he's

01:31:18 writing to mixed ethnic churches absolutely the scripture would have to be clear in its

01:31:22 condemnation of interracial marriage if we were to take a position of saying that it's sin 0.99

01:31:26 yeah fortunately we don't no no in saying that's against against god's design because polygamy is

01:31:31 against god's design and we see but the scripture is not standard of prescription for polygamy not

01:31:36 being within god's design but the scripture does not ever condemn polygamy it doesn't have to and

01:31:40 yet you would say that because it prescribes the right way goes against the normative design yes

01:31:43 Because it prescribes

01:31:44 So when it says that an elder 0.99

01:31:47 Should be a man of one wife 0.98

01:31:50 You're saying

01:31:52 That that's not a

01:31:53 Direct, explicit

01:31:55 Standard that the Bible is setting

01:31:58 That it's supposed to be

01:31:59 For all believers 0.53

01:32:00 I'm saying that that is a standard that is reserved for elders

01:32:03 An elder must be

01:32:04 Here's another example 1.00

01:32:05 You know you're going to attract a lot of polygamists at your church after this 0.85

01:32:08 Because there's a growing movement of polygamists

01:32:10 Yeah, there is a growing movement

01:32:11 What's that verse about?

01:32:12 And I've engaged with those people.

01:32:14 What, 1 Timothy 3?

01:32:15 1 Timothy 3 and Titus.

01:32:17 Here's another one that we could use,

01:32:19 and we can put it in the same mold that we're using, right?

01:32:21 The same thesis statement, our prompt for today's debate.

01:32:24 You can do it with interracial marriage. 0.92

01:32:26 You can do it with polygamy. 0.98

01:32:26 Here's another one, slavery. 1.00

01:32:28 Do you think that slavery is good, positive, should be promoted,

01:32:31 should be encouraged, that you are for slavery,

01:32:34 that it should be normative?

01:32:35 Well, it depends on the type of slavery we're talking about.

01:32:38 If we're talking about the biblical slavery that was indentured servitude, I think that that is fine.

01:32:43 You can give yourself to someone and say, hey, I will give my service to you in exchange for living, food, and stuff like that. 0.96

01:32:52 I think that that's okay. 0.88

01:32:54 When it comes to chattel slavery, I think that that is expressly condemned in Scripture.

01:32:58 Exodus 21, 16 says if a man steals somebody from—

01:33:02 Man's stealing.

01:33:03 Punishable by death. 0.99

01:33:03 Punishable by death.

01:33:04 That said, though, real quick, one of the things that you use some of the verses to say you shouldn't treat the foreigner, right, the sojourner, any different.

01:33:11 But there are other passages of Scripture that say you could charge interest to a foreigner, right?

01:33:16 So you have a disposition of hospitality towards a foreigner, and yet you could charge him interest on a loan, but you cannot charge your brother interest.

01:33:26 Another thing in terms of indentured servanthood, that particularly pertained to Israel, to fellow Israelites.

01:33:34 You could not own them indefinitely.

01:33:36 There was a limit of terms, these kinds of things,

01:33:39 whereas the slavery that was permitted in the Old Testament

01:33:42 for a non-Hebrew brother owning someone who was a foreigner from a different nation,

01:33:48 it actually allowed for longer terms of slavery, those kinds of things.

01:33:52 So my question is, would you want that to be normative?

01:33:57 Because God allows for it, but I would argue that it shouldn't be normative.

01:34:01 I am a not normative polygamy guy.

01:34:04 I'm a not-normative slavery guy.

01:34:05 I want the record to clearly state.

01:34:08 Joel thinks ordinarily that slavery goes against God's normative design.

01:34:13 Ordinarily, polygamy goes against God's normative design.

01:34:17 Okay, so I want to get back to that, if you mind holding that off,

01:34:20 because I wanted to talk about the verse about the elder,

01:34:22 and then we could jump right back to the example.

01:34:24 Is that okay?

01:34:25 Yeah.

01:34:25 So it says here that an overseer then must be above reproach.

01:34:32 Now, I want to stop here.

01:34:33 would you agree that that would go for all believers,

01:34:37 that all believers should be above reproach?

01:34:39 All believers should strive to be above reproach, yeah.

01:34:41 Okay.

01:34:42 So all believers should strive to be above reproach,

01:34:45 which means, and it kind of breaks down what that means,

01:34:48 that the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable,

01:34:53 able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, whatever that word means,

01:34:59 um but considerate peace peaceable free from the love of money um leading his own household well

01:35:06 having his children's mission with all with all dignity um so would you say that these are these

01:35:13 would be general uh christ-like values that every believer should hold to and strive to have so no

01:35:20 not it i don't believe that the list in first timothy three ortonus one is an exhaustive list

01:35:24 just like the fruit of the spirit in galatians i don't believe is exhaustive um i don't believe

01:35:28 there's only nine manifestations of the spirit love right right it's not an exhaustive list

01:35:33 so number one i don't believe the qualifications are exhaustive and number two um i don't believe

01:35:38 that all the qualifications are necessarily um put forward as moral standards moral standards

01:35:44 that all men all men should be all christian men should be but an elder must be i would say that

01:35:50 that's generally true about most of the things that paul lists uh or that he names in this list

01:35:55 of qualifications. But I don't feel like there's a way to definitively say that every single one

01:36:00 of them exhaustively falls in the mind of the spirit, inspiring the apostle Paul in writing

01:36:07 this. It could be that he's saying, well, in the case of a man who is an elder, the reason why he

01:36:12 should have one wife is because it is permissible to have multiple wives, but it best displays the

01:36:20 marriage between Christ and the church and Christ having one bride, or also just practically

01:36:24 speaking, if he's going to care for the house of God, in a sense, he's married to the church,

01:36:29 not in the ultimate sense that Christ is married to the church, but he's taking the church as

01:36:34 kind of a friend of the bridegroom and caring for her diligently and all these things, for him to

01:36:40 have on top of those immense duties and responsibilities to the church, to have

01:36:44 also multiple wives that he needs to care for, also simply practically imprudent. So no, I don't

01:36:52 think that you can look at that and say every single one of these equally or even inclusively

01:36:57 are should be for christian men so term pugnacious also too in the text it's closer to like a brawler

01:37:04 so some of the translations render it like striving or argumentative okay what it most closely means

01:37:09 is someone who kind of just punches his way out of things but you can imagine a christian who is in

01:37:13 the military for example he's not qualified to be an elder he's not reserved for that calling

01:37:18 But he himself, that man gets in there, he establishes order.

01:37:22 Same thing, hey, this man was Muslim, he converted, he has four wives. 0.54

01:37:25 So I think there's multiple qualifications in there that are not necessarily the moral standard that's upheld,

01:37:31 but for this specific office, an overseer and a caretaker of Christ's sheep,

01:37:36 it says, and this one, some may have it, and that's understandable, but this one he can't have.

01:37:39 So you don't think that it's describing a moral character of an overseer?

01:37:44 like these are moral characteristics that he should uphold uh yeah i like i just said i think

01:37:50 that um it it is describing that that list is um those those qualifications i would say that

01:37:57 the vast majority of them are pointing towards moral indicators character character but i don't

01:38:03 think it's only character i i i would agree so i would i would agree that that's it's included

01:38:08 and that's the big picture of it so i'm i'm asking when in regards to the character that

01:38:13 it's presenting should christians strive to be uh what this is describing overseer should be

01:38:19 um again like i said i think that um to to say that to steamroll the list and to say that they're

01:38:26 all exactly the same they're all uh they're all moral um goals to be strived after i i think is

01:38:33 you can't really prove that so which one of these would you say is not a moral goal to be to strive

01:38:39 after the husband of one wife temperate sensible respectable hospitable uh able to teach not

01:38:45 addicted to wine or pugnacious considerate well able to teach for instance so i think every man

01:38:50 should pursue knowledge of christ knowledge of the word as much as he's able to but there are

01:38:55 some men who simply will not have the the the mental capacity to be able to teach others and

01:39:01 it doesn't mean that they're in a moral failure it doesn't mean that they that they're in sin

01:39:05 because they're not qualified.

01:39:07 Just a skill they don't have.

01:39:08 Yeah, right.

01:39:09 But would you agree that every man should at least strive

01:39:12 to be a teacher of their household?

01:39:15 Yeah, every man should be a resident theologian

01:39:17 if he's a married man.

01:39:18 Yeah.

01:39:19 So notice, like, and that's...

01:39:21 To the best of his ability.

01:39:22 That's going to vary greatly.

01:39:23 Of course.

01:39:24 So he's not going to be the best, maybe,

01:39:26 but he should strive to be able...

01:39:28 He ain't going to be no Joe Webber.

01:39:28 Yeah, he ain't going to be no Joe Webber.

01:39:30 But he can strive to be a teacher in his household, right?

01:39:33 And that is him upholding the moral character as the man and the head of the household that God has ordained him to be.

01:39:39 Right.

01:39:39 Okay.

01:39:40 So we're going through these.

01:39:42 All of these are moral characteristics that God requires all of us to have, especially as men.

01:39:50 He requires all of us to, you know, he doesn't demand it like you have to be the best in every category.

01:39:56 But these are things that every Christian ought to exemplify, especially Christian men with their household, with their peers, whatever. 0.84

01:40:04 And so I would say that being the husband of one wife is included in that category, that that exemplifies a moral character.

01:40:12 Should every Christian ought to be against slavery? 0.52

01:40:16 You're talking about chattel slavery?

01:40:18 Well, I think there's a lot of distance, just for the record.

01:40:22 I'm against chattel slavery. 0.97

01:40:23 Let the record stay. 1.00

01:40:24 But I think there's a lot of distance in between black people kidnapping and man-stealing black people 0.99

01:40:31 and then lining them up on the coast and selling them to white people and some Jews 1.00

01:40:36 and then transporting them and they're slaves for life and their children are slaves 0.82

01:40:41 and separating families and those kinds of things.

01:40:45 There's a lot of difference between that, if we're using that as chattel slavery,

01:40:49 and a six-year indentured servanthood.

01:40:51 right so there's a lot of there's a lot of distance so i agree what about another form

01:40:57 of slavery which i believe was permissible for the israelites that the bible teaches

01:41:01 when it came to not owning their own hebrew brother but owning someone from a foreign nation

01:41:05 who was in their their camp yeah go ahead yeah go ahead i would just say scripture has to

01:41:12 interpret scripture i would say we see polygamy we see negative descriptions of polygamy and then 0.70

01:41:17 we see one woman man. We see slavery. We see the slave Bible, which was what was given to

01:41:24 African-Americans, removing the story of Exodus, removing a lot of passages. And then we see 0.63

01:41:29 Philman, which, Philman, I think I said that right, chapter one, Paul is saying, if you consider me a

01:41:33 partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. And Paul is writing to release a slave that was a

01:41:39 brother in Christ, right? So what do we see? We see a narrative of slavery in Egypt, and then we

01:41:46 see a New Testament recontextualization of slavery, of polygamy, of lying. You fill in a

01:41:52 thing, these little mixed areas that I think are incoherent. We see these things clarified 1.00

01:41:56 in the New Testament scriptures. But we also see the same Paul in Ephesians,

01:42:00 who doesn't say, masters, release your slaves, but tells masters to rule righteously over their

01:42:05 slaves. We also see that. Yeah, we see that. So again, what do we mean by slaves? You were

01:42:10 talking about a very specific type of slavery. I responded to the broader context around slavery.

01:42:15 with this book, which again, slave Bible that was given to black folks took out a lot of

01:42:20 these passages intentionally so folks wouldn't be fully aware of these things. 0.53

01:42:24 So I think that this entire premise of slavery, it doesn't square up because you're talking

01:42:30 about different types of slavery and all this sort of stuff.

01:42:31 And again, we're saying there's enough in here, in the New Testament, to say it seems

01:42:36 like this is generally against the type of chattel slavery we've seen and a lot of the

01:42:41 folks that fought for the abolishing of slavery were Christian.

01:42:45 And so if you're going to put a restriction on interracial marriage,

01:42:50 interethnic marriage, whatever you want to call it,

01:42:52 you have to make this case from the scripture, Joel,

01:42:54 and you just haven't been able to do that, brother.

01:42:56 Not New Testament, not Old Testament.

01:42:57 I would just say that with slavery, again, I'm saying it shouldn't be normative.

01:43:02 I am not pro-slavery, so I don't think that it should be encouraged, promoted,

01:43:06 those kinds of things. 0.98

01:43:08 But I am saying that it is biblically permissible.

01:43:11 It is.

01:43:11 Which Avery already granted.

01:43:13 Now, same thing. 1.00

01:43:14 Let's apply it to interracial marriage.

01:43:16 So you're saying, well, interracial marriage, because you said, well, in the case of slavery,

01:43:19 there's these bad examples.

01:43:20 Or you said polygamy.

01:43:22 There's a lot of the polygamous cases.

01:43:23 There's descriptive passages, and then there's New Testament prescriptive passages saying

01:43:27 one woman, man.

01:43:29 We don't have anything like that for inter-ethnic marriage. 1.00

01:43:31 Not just that. 0.99

01:43:32 Not just for an elder.

01:43:33 You conceded that that's good moral character for everyone to strive to.

01:43:35 No, I did not concede that.

01:43:36 What?

01:43:37 I did not concede that.

01:43:38 Joe.

01:43:39 Come on.

01:43:40 I worked hard for that, man.

01:43:41 I said multiple times

01:43:46 I don't believe it's an exhaustive list

01:43:47 and no I don't believe that every single one

01:43:49 of the qualifications listed there

01:43:51 is a should be

01:43:51 I believe that on the whole

01:43:53 that many of those qualifications

01:43:55 do refer to character

01:43:58 good Christian character

01:43:59 and therefore an elder must be 0.96

01:44:01 and a Christian man should be 1.00

01:44:02 I can't let you have this 1.00

01:44:03 I'm sorry

01:44:04 Joe

01:44:04 so every man has to be able to teach

01:44:06 if he needs every other qualification

01:44:08 you should strive

01:44:09 of your household

01:44:10 He needs to come home from his construction job with four kids, and at night, he needs

01:44:19 to be learning to teach.

01:44:20 If all of those are good moral character, and he has every other one, and that is the 0.99

01:44:23 last one, and he is a bubbling idiot when he gets up in front of people, then if those 0.98

01:44:26 are all moral qualifications, then he would need to apply himself to develop that moral 0.99

01:44:31 character, to which you would say he's not made to teach.

01:44:33 What is a man's priority?

01:44:35 Is it his family or his construction job?

01:44:37 Well, the construction job is a means to feeding his family.

01:44:39 That's not what I asked.

01:44:41 Yeah, you posed a false dichotomy between those two things.

01:44:45 No, he brought this up.

01:44:46 One is a means to fulfilling his duties for the other.

01:44:49 Yeah, they're not in conflict.

01:44:50 They're not in conflict.

01:44:51 So I didn't ask that.

01:44:52 Family and then the job.

01:44:54 There's a hierarchy of family.

01:44:55 So which is the priority?

01:44:58 Is it your family or is it your job?

01:45:02 It's not an or.

01:45:03 It is.

01:45:03 No, it's not.

01:45:04 So is a man in sin, if he spends 10 hours, five days a week at work,

01:45:08 but only an average of two to three hours with his children.

01:45:12 Which one's the priority?

01:45:13 If his family is suffering, he needs to figure out to pivot and learn to do something else.

01:45:17 The vast majority of men throughout history had to work long days, hard labor to provide for their family.

01:45:24 Were they all in sin?

01:45:25 They spent more time at work than they did with their children.

01:45:28 Let me ask this, okay?

01:45:29 Let's switch the roles a little bit.

01:45:31 Let's say at work, he's doing just fine.

01:45:34 Like his hours and everything, his funds is good enough to meet the means.

01:45:38 They're doing just fine.

01:45:39 However, he's choosing to stay at work even more when he doesn't have to and not pouring into his family.

01:45:46 Is he in sin then?

01:45:47 That's different.

01:45:48 I know.

01:45:49 That's different.

01:45:49 So, okay.

01:45:50 So how, why is that different though?

01:45:52 Because we agree with that, but let's break that down.

01:45:54 Because then the job is no longer, now it actually is a dichotomy, not a false one.

01:45:58 The job is no longer a means to serving and providing for his family.

01:46:02 but now he's going beyond

01:46:03 the job has served its means

01:46:05 for the family and now I'm just staying

01:46:07 for the fun of it. It's three hours at home, nope

01:46:09 I'm staying three hours more at work baby

01:46:11 for no extra pay

01:46:13 So will we agree that a man who

01:46:15 he's working hard

01:46:17 making ends meet

01:46:19 so he's doing that

01:46:21 and also when he comes

01:46:23 home he should be able

01:46:26 to spiritually guide the family

01:46:28 That's his job

01:46:30 Are you the priest of your home or you're not?

01:46:31 i don't care if you are construction i don't care if you stream are you the priest and the

01:46:35 pastor of your home you are positionally every husband slash father is the priest so he ought

01:46:40 to be able to teach office by office not every man so every man by office formally is in that

01:46:46 position as pastor of his home priest of his home however not every man is inherently in sin

01:46:52 with a moral culpability if he's not particularly good in his ability to theologically teach

01:46:59 I agree. We already did this. So we're not talking about skill level. We're talking about the

01:47:06 striving of achieving this character that God has laid out for the man of the household.

01:47:12 So if he doesn't have the skill to teach, right? Let's say he's not even a great speaker like that,

01:47:17 but he should strive to be doctrinally and theologically sound and guide his family

01:47:22 in God's character and in God's teachings and His Word, right?

01:47:28 For thousands of years, the church was sustained by men who couldn't read 0.95

01:47:32 and couldn't write prior to the Reformation, who went to church on Sunday. 0.99

01:47:35 They had no Bible.

01:47:36 They had no doctrine.

01:47:37 They were sustained by the preaching of the Word on Sunday.

01:47:38 So we can't take something that is required of elders able to teach

01:47:42 and say all men across all times and all contexts must possess this quality

01:47:46 as a moral character.

01:47:47 In the same way with polygamy, because it's not condemned elsewhere

01:47:50 in the new testament yeah we would also say okay uh ultimately this one uh you shouldn't willingly

01:47:55 enter it in america it's even illegal so contextually this is against the law obey the

01:47:59 authorities but we can't go so far as to say and here's a new testament verse condemning all

01:48:03 occasions no matter what real quick polygamy is not condemned anywhere in the in the new testament

01:48:09 and that's the point that i'm trying to make the point that i'm trying to make is that you guys are

01:48:13 saying well the burden of proof is on you joel and company um because there's no clear condemnation

01:48:19 passages of interracial marriage, right? And so I'm saying, so then there's no clear condemnation

01:48:26 passages in the Old or New Testament of polygamy. So I feel like your position is that you guys,

01:48:32 you're not against, I'm saying generally against, and you're like, we're generally for, right? 0.52

01:48:38 That's the only other option when it comes to interracial marriage. Well, I think you have to 1.00

01:48:42 apply that, and you're saying the reason you take your position is because the burden of proof is

01:48:46 on us there's no clear condemnation of interracial marriage in the new testament or the old testament

01:48:50 well there's also no clear condemnation of polygamy in the old testament or the new testament

01:48:54 so you should be consistent and take the same position right that you're taking on interracial

01:48:58 marriage saying we're generally four i think you should generally be for polygamy there's positive

01:49:02 examples abraham david i mean i know what created tension but like multiple men had these multiple

01:49:07 wives and it just and they were wrong yeah but if we're giving positive examples think about this

01:49:12 in terms of numbers not just not just instances in scripture like a chapter right but think of

01:49:16 just raw numeric numbers okay so there are positive examples ruth right moses's wife rahab

01:49:23 but you brought up ezra chapter 9 and 10 and nehemiah 13 and that case is like well it's

01:49:29 only one case over here we have ruth we have rahab we have moses's three cases okay but this

01:49:34 one case over here was thousands of women and children being sent away i think it was like

01:49:40 150 it wasn't thousand it was it was way less than that joel it's okay it's a lot okay it's a

01:49:45 lot of the populations tens of thousands in that population i want to not thousands i want to

01:49:49 respond to this really quick man because this this i feel like you guys are missing our point

01:49:53 it's not simply that um the the scripture doesn't uh explicitly or directly condemn interracial

01:50:00 marriage and so therefore and see we have examples so therefore this doesn't go against god no we

01:50:05 have explicit examples we have explicit verses that go that that support interracial marriage or

01:50:12 uh like like for example we gave the verse um where in first corinthians 7 where it says that

01:50:18 a woman can marry whoever she wants and the only stipulation is that as long as it's in the lord

01:50:25 and he's writing to a mixed ethnic church and so that's what can i can't wait just let me say this 0.91

01:50:30 I'll shut up, I promise. 0.66

01:50:33 And in that chapter, you have, in 1 Corinthians 7,

01:50:36 it's saying that every man should have his own wife, singular,

01:50:40 and every woman should have her own husband, singular. 0.74

01:50:42 That's in verse 2 and 3. 0.96

01:50:43 So we're having explicit verses, Deuteronomy 17, 17,

01:50:47 that a king should not have many wives, right?

01:50:50 So we got Old Testament.

01:50:51 We got the New Testament that's given different passages.

01:50:55 This is why a man leaves his mother and father,

01:50:58 please to his wife, singular, and the two

01:51:00 shall be one flesh. We have these

01:51:02 verses that's supporting that.

01:51:04 This is why

01:51:05 and that goes against 0.70

01:51:07 a husband of one wife, you know, the overseer of whatever

01:51:10 and every Christian should reflect this.

01:51:13 This is our point where we have

01:51:14 verses that

01:51:16 clearly show what we're saying.

01:51:18 There's not a single verse that shows

01:51:20 what you guys are saying.

01:51:22 Not even close in the New Testament.

01:51:24 Oh!

01:51:24 I want to

01:51:26 We can stay on this topic

01:51:29 Of I think 1 Corinthians 7

01:51:31 Mary as in the Lord

01:51:32 I have a question for you 1.00

01:51:34 Which is would you discourage

01:51:37 Or encourage your daughter 0.97

01:51:38 To marry when she's let's say

01:51:41 18, 20 0.90

01:51:41 Pick some age 0.90

01:51:43 To marry a 60 year old man 0.89

01:51:46 A 60 year old man? 1.00

01:51:48 Yeah 1.00

01:51:48 There's no standard in scripture for it

01:51:51 She's free to marry anyone in the Lord

01:51:54 You're absolutely right. I wouldn't say that she's wrong

01:51:56 in doing that.

01:51:57 Would you discourage her or encourage her?

01:51:59 I would discourage that based on my

01:52:01 no objective basis, just my preference.

01:52:04 Well no, natural law has revealed

01:52:06 that that pairing is unsuited.

01:52:07 That it's a man so far advanced in experience

01:52:09 and all these different things and a girl so young 0.92

01:52:12 that you would

01:52:13 What's your

01:52:15 you said based on your preference, what's your preference based on?

01:52:18 So I would think that

01:52:20 normally a 60 year old

01:52:22 and a 25-year-old wouldn't really have much in common.

01:52:25 They wouldn't really be...

01:52:26 Normally?

01:52:27 One might say ordinarily.

01:52:29 Sure, yeah.

01:52:30 But notice this.

01:52:31 Notice I'm not saying that this necessarily goes against God's design

01:52:35 because this is my own preference.

01:52:38 I don't have a scripture backing up what I'm saying.

01:52:40 So I could, if she insists, I can't say,

01:52:42 well, daughter, you're going against God's natural normative design.

01:52:44 I can't say that.

01:52:45 But we're Christians.

01:52:46 You can.

01:52:47 You can.

01:52:48 Because God has written two books, not merely one.

01:52:50 He has special revelation, that which is inscripturated, but we also have natural

01:52:54 revelation. God has given us reason. He has not made us witless beast. He has made us intelligent.

01:53:01 We're able to exercise rationale. And we know that there are, it's not mere preference. It's not

01:53:06 arbitrary. It's not capricious. We know that there is actually a natural, logical reason why we would

01:53:12 not encourage our 18-year-old daughter to marry a 60-year-old man, even if he's Christian. We would 1.00

01:53:18 actually discourage we would discourage it based on reason based on natural law we shouldn't be

01:53:23 arbitrary as christians yeah so so so so the the dude that coined all of this thomas aquinas

01:53:32 this is what he said difference of race or nation does not impede marriage for such difference does

01:53:38 not belong to the law of nature so the guy that you're quoting natural law natural this you know

01:53:43 maybe there's some distinction in theomony and your version of natural law but the guy that

01:53:46 coined it. Thomas Aquinas made no reservations on this.

01:53:49 And I can go quote after quote. We have

01:53:50 Martin Luther, marriage is a worldly

01:53:52 thing. Christians are free to marry

01:53:55 wherever there is faith and love.

01:53:56 And I can give you a ton of quotes from

01:53:58 churches. Aquinas over and over again also emphasized

01:54:00 that similarity was

01:54:02 the bedrock of

01:54:04 societal organization. So I

01:54:06 agree that he said that. Similarly, same

01:54:09 city, same

01:54:10 background, same

01:54:12 socioeconomic experience, same

01:54:14 faith in Jesus as a primary

01:54:16 priority they look the same as well those basis no no no you snuck that in no one said anything

01:54:21 said they have to look the same not that they have to look the same but all of these things

01:54:27 as a constellation form a shared unity one of the reasons and you can see this in different studies

01:54:32 about when kids are adopted one of the reasons that i'm so drawn to my children i love them

01:54:36 is there's a similarity to me in them that i see in them reflection of my parents and you and your

01:54:42 kids absolutely out but at scale bode bacham even said this people asked him do you love your

01:54:48 natural biological children which he had two more than your adopted seven boys and he said no i don't

01:54:53 love my natural born children more he said but i have to work harder okay so intentional you just

01:54:59 conflated adopted because i don't have biological children my children are biologically mine your

01:55:04 children are biologically yours they don't look exactly like you they look more white but you

01:55:08 still love them but zoom out at the corporate level and with a people that are bound together

01:55:13 by all these different things we share and appearance and semblance and the shared identity

01:55:18 is one of those things that so the same guy that said that we would have some distinctions or

01:55:23 nuances you know we we distinguish as a turritin would kind of say in his institutes we distinguish

01:55:27 with that quote that aquinas has on marriage and nature we would say he's also the one that said

01:55:32 very much so a people that are similar in all these ways is the bedrock of a people that have

01:55:37 cohesion, that love their land, that love the fathers that are patriotic. So I don't think

01:55:42 he's just full-blown saying flat. You could have cohesion without looking the same, and no one's

01:55:45 talking about flat, and no one's talking about... You can. You can. You can have cohesion without

01:55:49 looking the same. Yes, you can. But at a certain level, if all of a sudden you, through interracial

01:55:53 marriage, over time, there's just a bunch of people that share this space, and then because

01:55:58 these have a different group of ancestors, and these have married into the peoples that

01:56:02 immigrated from the north, you would start to end up with disparity in history. But you have that,

01:56:07 You have that in Europe, dude.

01:56:08 You have different disparities.

01:56:09 That's part of the problem. 0.77

01:56:10 It's part of the problem that white people, people you would generalize as white, all 0.77

01:56:14 have disparities within their own ethnic backgrounds and their own DNA. 0.64

01:56:17 Well, I was thinking mostly of third world immigration that people have come in that 0.96

01:56:22 look very much so different. 0.76

01:56:22 I'm just saying there's disparities and differences within white people.

01:56:25 There's disparity in different... 0.62

01:56:26 There's tribes in Africa where everyone's super tall, and there's tribes in Africa where

01:56:29 everyone's super short.

01:56:30 There's disparities amongst the same race.

01:56:32 Yes.

01:56:32 I understand that there is a big argument that's often made that there's more variation within the group than there is between the group.

01:56:39 But I just would simply say that it defeats common sense.

01:56:42 And also we see the French, generally, they've developed everything characteristic of themselves. 0.98

01:56:47 And it's over and against and unique from the Germans that are right there and the English that are above them. 0.96

01:56:51 All these peoples eventually develop their own distinct identity. 0.97

01:56:55 Yeah, but you're conflating all of them as the same race. 0.71

01:56:59 That's the issue. 1.00

01:56:59 They all are, the JFF, Europeans. 1.00

01:57:02 But they're all different, and they have very little in common. 1.00

01:57:04 Yeah, different ethnicities. 1.00

01:57:06 Yes, different ethnicities. 0.99

01:57:07 And intermacial marriage at scale would destroy those differences. 0.67

01:57:09 So you're against a German dude and a French girl getting married. 0.67

01:57:13 At scale is what I'm talking about.

01:57:15 At scale. 0.99

01:57:15 So if that happened, yeah, you would have kind of a French, German.

01:57:19 They would lose the flags and the language.

01:57:22 But what is your, have you guys done your ancestry, your 23andMe?

01:57:25 What is your guys' DNA?

01:57:26 I can trace my family line all the way back on my dad's side to about the 1200s in Britain

01:57:31 and then mostly German on my mom's side.

01:57:33 So you're mixed, dude.

01:57:34 Based on your arbitrary standard of saying German and British, you're mixed.

01:57:37 In a process called ethnogenesis, in which the British and the Germans came to the United

01:57:41 States and formed a new ethnicity under the hardship, under the pioneer conditions of

01:57:46 the American frontier.

01:57:48 Yes, that was called ethnogenesis, and it took the European peoples.

01:57:51 John Jay talks about this. 0.52

01:57:52 So they spread out, and they separate, and then they come back together.

01:57:55 But notice the difference.

01:57:55 they didn't mix all of there, that the Irish crossed over to Germany and the English came

01:58:00 down to France. No, they came here to the frontier, and ethnogenesis, a new people, a new American race

01:58:05 is in the process of being formed. So I'm not mixed in the same way of, well, India came to

01:58:10 Ireland with millions and millions of people, and now they carry no characteristics of either. Red 0.95

01:58:14 hair is gone. No, I'm a offspring of a European ethnogenesis that came to America and settled it.

01:58:20 And that's all fine, man, but I just see Ephesians 2.15 that says, by setting aside in his flesh

01:58:25 the law, with its commands and regulations,

01:58:27 his purpose was to create in himself

01:58:28 one new humanity.

01:58:31 His what? His flesh. His purpose?

01:58:32 Yeah, his purpose. His purpose was

01:58:35 to create in himself one new

01:58:37 humanity out of the two,

01:58:39 thus making peace. So Jesus is going against

01:58:41 God's original design? No, that's just a category

01:58:43 error. What? We're not

01:58:45 talking about salvation, guys. We're not talking about

01:58:47 heavenly life. I didn't say anything about salvation. We're not talking about those things

01:58:49 which are spiritual and ultimate. We're talking about

01:58:51 temporal categories here that are

01:58:53 simple arbitrary categories everybody loves revelation chapter 7 verse 9 every tribe tongue

01:58:58 and nation it's going to be around it's going to be around right the the lamb worshiping him

01:59:04 together i guess what we love that too you will not have diversity in heaven if you mix everything

01:59:10 here on earth no one's arguing for mixing everything here on earth what if it's normative

01:59:14 if it's normative that's what happens you're saying it's not normative i'm saying people

01:59:18 can choose and have their preferences it doesn't go against god we're saying it doesn't go against

01:59:22 God's design. You're saying it does. I'm saying people can marry

01:59:24 whoever they want to. And if you want your 0.70

01:59:26 kids to look like you and grandkids and white babies, 1.00

01:59:29 I'm not mad at you at that. The issue 0.99

01:59:30 is when you go the extra mile and say, I'm

01:59:32 against. This is the Mont & Bailey

01:59:34 fallacy. It's like you're arguing like an atheist.

01:59:37 God doesn't exist.

01:59:39 And then you press and you go, well, I just

01:59:40 lack faith in God. I'm a non-combative

01:59:43 non-believer. Okay? So you're

01:59:44 backdooring a harsher premise

01:59:46 than just saying a preference. If you have a preference, just say you have

01:59:48 a preference. If you want to nuance it to death, just nuance it to death.

01:59:50 We're not doing a Mont & Bailey. I'm sticking to the

01:59:52 tweet that kicked off this whole controversy that you're against it that's right that i'm yes you

01:59:57 have no as a pastor you have no basis of that on scripture you've repeatedly failed to give us one

02:00:02 new testament example to churches that have been written to mixed ethnic churches you haven't you

02:00:06 haven't given us one new testament which is why i don't condemn it the bible does not condemn it

02:00:11 it is biblically permissible it is biblically that's incoherent joel no it's not that is

02:00:16 incoherent that breaks the second law of logic no first corinthians chapter six all things are

02:00:21 permissible, but not all things are beneficial. There is, in God's Word, a category. So you guys

02:00:28 have done this several times now. You've said, oh, this third category doesn't exist. It breaks

02:00:31 the laws of logic. Well, no. God gives this category. All things are permissible. Not all

02:00:37 things are beneficial. So right there, under apostolic authority, inspired by the Holy Spirit

02:00:42 of God, the third person in the Trinity, we have a third category, something that's permissible,

02:00:46 but it's not beneficial my whole thesis that kicked off this whole thing where everybody got

02:00:52 mad at me thousands of people christians calling me a racist saying that i hate people who these

02:00:58 are people who have been saying it for years they haven't even taken the time to watch the show to 0.97

02:01:02 see that one of my co-hosts is interracial these are are deceitful mean-spirited people they're 0.75

02:01:08 being mean it's wrong right whether or not interracial marriage whether or not my position 0.79

02:01:13 is permissible to have that's debatable slanderer slander is not debatable agree slander is objectively

02:01:21 immoral and all i'm saying is that this category is not a category that i invented in my mind

02:01:26 it's a category that i read in first corinthians chapter six as a young boy i realized that this

02:01:31 was a category that has biblical merit god sees us as it's it's uh permissible but not beneficial

02:01:38 okay so i'm allowed to make that argument okay but that's not the argument the argument isn't

02:01:43 today if it's beneficial or not the argument is does it go against god's normative design

02:01:49 and that's what ruslan is saying spread the people out

02:01:53 just saying that that's what ruslan is emphasizing is that you guys have not been able to scripturally

02:02:04 give a basis for interracial marriage going against god's original design when we have

02:02:11 verses that show the opposite so that's that's what has been lacking on the if you're i'll use

02:02:17 another example similar uh similar to the last one if your daughter wanted to get married at 15

02:02:21 would you let her if my daughter wanted to get married at 15 would you let her uh no why why

02:02:27 not uh i would i would deduce that she's not ready for that on what basis on the basis on her 0.79

02:02:34 mentality. Notice, notice the difference. I'm giving you my, what I ascertain and my knowledge

02:02:42 and my observation, right? I'm not saying even necessarily that if a 15 year old in the scripture

02:02:50 who got married to another 17 year old or a 21 year old, whatever, that that goes against what

02:02:55 God's design. I'm not saying that. But aren't you a Christian? Shouldn't you be thinking it not

02:03:00 arbitrarily or capriciously shouldn't you be thinking in terms of what does God say,

02:03:04 not only in his scripture, special revelation, but also in nature, natural revelation. You have

02:03:10 two different ways that God's speaking to you. Yeah, so God talks about the maturity and the

02:03:15 mindset of people ready for marriage. It talks about... Okay, let's do this. Should the age of

02:03:22 consent be 14? Not for your daughter specifically. Would you be okay with the age of consent being

02:03:27 I don't think so, because I think that generally 14-year-olds are not mature physically or mentally or spiritually for a marriage or relationships. 0.96

02:03:35 Do you think that's a valid argument, biblical argument to make?

02:03:39 I think that to argue that—

02:03:41 So you just made it—you said that's biblical, and you made an argument where you just said what you just said is biblical.

02:03:49 You said, I don't believe that 14- or 15-year-old girls are mature, and then you said that's biblical.

02:03:55 No, what? No. See, that's why I say, like, you got to let me finish that. I'm not saying that there's an age biblically, because there's not. There's not an age biblically. But biblically, it talks about maturity, spiritual maturity, physical maturity.

02:04:07 Where does it talk about maturity, not spiritual, but physical?

02:04:10 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 36

02:04:13 you got Ezekiel

02:04:14 where it talks about the maturity of

02:04:17 like this is God's given

02:04:18 a hyperbolic example

02:04:20 with him and his relationship

02:04:22 with Israel and how they've grown physically

02:04:24 and matured for relationship

02:04:26 and stuff like that

02:04:27 but that's just given the description of physical

02:04:30 growth

02:04:31 there's no age though

02:04:33 there's no age

02:04:35 I agree that's why I said

02:04:37 I wouldn't put an age on it

02:04:39 and say biblically a 14-year-old 0.91

02:04:41 so I would say a 12-year-old

02:04:44 is a little girl 0.53

02:04:45 what if she's gone through puberty

02:04:47 what if she's gone through puberty

02:04:49 that is the process by which normatively in culture 0.86

02:04:51 men and women were able to marry 0.53

02:04:53 I don't care about that

02:04:54 I said physical, spiritual and mental maturity

02:04:57 a 12-year-old does not require that

02:04:58 and even if you're going through puberty

02:05:00 if you've bled that doesn't mean that you're grown yet

02:05:02 you're beginning to grow

02:05:04 13? 14?

02:05:06 Same.

02:05:07 15.

02:05:08 Same.

02:05:08 So where should...

02:05:09 Hold up, hold up.

02:05:10 What about 17?

02:05:12 Well, that's a little dicey, I think.

02:05:14 I think that...

02:05:15 But again, this is going on preference.

02:05:18 I think that a 17-year-old...

02:05:20 Well, no, you're citing scripture.

02:05:22 At least when I was 17, I...

02:05:24 You just said physical maturity, spiritual maturity from the Bible.

02:05:27 I wouldn't condemn...

02:05:30 If somebody allowed their 17-year-old to get married to another 18-year-old, 19-year-old,

02:05:35 I wouldn't condemn that, say that goes against scripture.

02:05:38 I wouldn't say that.

02:05:39 If you asked me, would I want my 17-year-old to get married,

02:05:43 I'd be like, my preference would be no, but it wouldn't be an objective preference.

02:05:46 But this is what I'm trying to pin you down on.

02:05:48 If a father wanted to marry his daughter at 14, would you say that's wrong?

02:05:54 Yeah, I would say that that's wrong because she would not be ready.

02:05:59 She wouldn't meet the scriptural.

02:06:01 You're not her father.

02:06:02 I don't have to be her father to say that.

02:06:04 How do you know that she's of spirit?

02:06:05 What were the categories?

02:06:06 Mental, physical, spiritual?

02:06:07 How do you know that without knowing her?

02:06:09 Is a 14-year-old...

02:06:10 Have you ever met a 14-year-old

02:06:11 that is physically, mentally, and spiritually... 0.83

02:06:13 Many women at 14 were, historically.

02:06:16 I'm asking you right now.

02:06:17 Mary.

02:06:19 Mary was 14?

02:06:20 It's debatable, 14 to 16.

02:06:22 Yeah.

02:06:23 So we can't put her in there. 1.00

02:06:25 Historically, we know that women after puberty, 1.00

02:06:27 that's when generally they were considered eligible to be married.

02:06:30 That's just a matter of historical record.

02:06:31 So, look, all in all, this is what we're saying.

02:06:34 Notice, I didn't give an age on it or anything like that.

02:06:37 I gave biblical description, right?

02:06:39 What you guys haven't been able to do is do that for us, where the Bible is condemning

02:06:44 or not necessarily because you said it's not condemning.

02:06:47 It's not my position.

02:06:48 Exactly.

02:06:48 Let me correct that. 0.98

02:06:50 That it goes against God's normative, original design for folks to intermarry.

02:06:57 You guys have not demonstrated that biblical.

02:06:59 Can I try?

02:07:01 Sure.

02:07:01 Okay, I'll try.

02:07:03 And then we're probably going to need to go to a commercial break partly

02:07:07 because Ruslan, he's had some very important business in another room.

02:07:11 And I now have some very important business in another room.

02:07:15 So we're going to need to go to a commercial break.

02:07:15 I do want to come back to this Corinthians passage, if you don't mind.

02:07:19 Should you do that first and then me?

02:07:21 Or me first and then you?

02:07:22 Let me just hit it real quick.

02:07:24 Go ahead.

02:07:24 So you quoted 1 Corinthians 6.

02:07:25 I have the right to do anything you say.

02:07:28 That's not what I said.

02:07:29 Oh, you're just reading it now.

02:07:30 reading the passage to you hold on i'm thinking is this the message translation yeah this is a

02:07:34 this is a weird one because i'm used to esv it says all things are permissible but not all

02:07:38 he uses that the second time i thought you were trying to trap no no no i have the right to do

02:07:42 anything or i have everything is permissible what translation is this is the niv i'm sorry i'm

02:07:46 niv no wonder it's nearly inspired no one you say not everything is beneficial i have the right to

02:07:53 do anything but i will tell you not to be mastered by anything you say stomach uh food for stomach

02:08:00 and a stomach for food, and God would destroy them both.

02:08:02 The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality, 0.94

02:08:04 but for the Lord and the Lord for the body.

02:08:06 Joel, you made a massive error here.

02:08:10 This is a quote, and we can find scholars to back this up.

02:08:13 Paul is quoting back to them, everything is permissible.

02:08:16 He's quoting this back to them, and then he's using it to segue into,

02:08:20 I will not be mastered by anything, and then going into lay out

02:08:24 how sexual immorality is not what we're designed for.

02:08:27 So this is not a cosign for this arbitrary third category of how something could be not

02:08:32 natural but still permissible, and we don't see that in Scripture, we don't see that in

02:08:35 church history.

02:08:37 Romans 14 would be another example.

02:08:40 What we're talking about is liberty of conscience.

02:08:42 We're talking about this category where something may not be best, it may not be the ideal,

02:08:49 but it is still permissible nonetheless.

02:08:52 This is a category in Scripture.

02:08:55 yeah you're talking about wisdom issues right you're talking about wisdom issues yeah so so

02:09:02 if we're talking about wisdom issues you're you're conflating again ethnos and race with

02:09:07 culture and faith that's that's the huge distinction i think it's unwise to genocide

02:09:13 the entire european that's an emotional argument you're you're an extreme you're backdooring

02:09:18 you're backdooring emotionally charged language to make the white kids who watch this feel like

02:09:23 their jobs are being taken. I think it would be tragic if white people

02:09:26 perished from the face of the earth. I would also say the same thing. 0.99

02:09:31 It would be horrible if white people perished from the face of the earth. That's 1.00

02:09:34 different. We know we don't take that position, but if

02:09:38 interracial marriage was normative, came to the point, if you guys

02:09:42 grew and grew and grew in popularity, and you guys said, hey, there's nothing in the Bible against

02:09:46 this. If it grew to 50-60%, European people 0.95

02:09:50 would perish from the face of the earth over generations they just would so we're saying 0.99

02:09:54 that's the logical outcome none of us would be here bro you don't want it i don't want it but

02:09:57 none of us would be here go ahead wait what do you mean but my children like if it would take

02:10:02 multiple generations so your offspring only offspring might look exactly like you that's

02:10:05 like a hezekiah move hezekiah hears that bad things will happen after his lifetime that's the

02:10:09 hezekiah is the original no no no i'm saying i don't think i don't happen in my lifetime so i

02:10:13 don't care respectfully if we're being honest i don't think either of you are going to care if

02:10:17 your grandkids or your great-grandkids are mixed. I really don't think this would be an issue.

02:10:21 If they possess the nation that was gifted to them. Yeah, but that's an arbitrary definition

02:10:25 of nation. We already agree that there's nations that are mixed ethnic, that that exists. So you

02:10:30 guys being down the road, your grandkids, your great-grandkids, and one of them is white, and

02:10:33 one of them is mixed, and one of them married a Spanish guy, and one of them married... You guys 0.77

02:10:37 aren't going to care. Be honest. You're not going to care. You're going to love those grandkids. 0.99

02:10:40 You're going to see the image of God. You're going to see yourself in them. You're going to celebrate

02:10:44 what God is doing through them.

02:10:45 You're gonna celebrate the Christian heritage

02:10:47 that you laid out for them

02:10:48 as the primary identity markers.

02:10:50 This stuff's not gonna matter

02:10:51 in generations and generations. 1.00

02:10:52 Yeah, so one of these new ethnicities,

02:10:55 whether it's the American ethnicity,

02:10:57 this is what Teddy Roosevelt said

02:10:58 about 1900 to 1910, 1920.

02:11:03 He said that there were

02:11:04 multiple different ingredients.

02:11:06 Let's use this analogy of like a furnace,

02:11:07 multiple different ingredients.

02:11:09 You have the French, you have the Celtics,

02:11:10 you have this, that, and the other,

02:11:11 and they come, the Brits,

02:11:12 they come in germanics they come in and what you have is time you have so you have one you have

02:11:19 not a thousand ingredients you have you know five six seven and they're not distantly related but

02:11:25 much more closely related they then come into this furnace and the furnace is providence it's

02:11:30 adversity it's the hardships of settling a new continent a new country all these things so you

02:11:35 have high heat adversity providence you have long periods of time right there's there's decades that

02:11:41 go by a couple centuries if you're going all the way back to 1600s all the way up to the 1900

02:11:46 and the ingredients are few rather than many and more closely related what we're doing today with

02:11:52 globalism is not that it's not like you know part of the french and part of you know the nordics

02:11:58 they went and they settled and they became a new that's not what we're doing we're taking people

02:12:02 from opposite ends of the earth in mass wave after wave with no pause in between and putting them in 0.88

02:12:08 the same place, and then encouraging same-sex marriage, encouraging abortion, encouraging

02:12:15 intermarriage, encouraging all these different things, saying, well, you know what, if this 0.76

02:12:20 forms a new ethnicity, and I don't think that's normative. 0.92

02:12:23 I don't think that that's the way that nations developed historically.

02:12:25 You're railing against globalism.

02:12:27 I'm saying there's nations here today that this has already happened to.

02:12:30 If you look at Brazil, if you look at Puerto Rico, if you look at Mexico, if you look at

02:12:34 America, all of these exist. 0.76

02:12:36 So say there's a group of white folks that come to a country and they say, hey, we want 0.63

02:12:40 to have an inter-ethnic community.

02:12:44 Do you have an issue against that?

02:12:46 Say it again. 1.00

02:12:47 A group of white folks. 1.00

02:12:48 They come, they start a new nation.

02:12:50 And they say, we want to have inter-ethnic people.

02:12:52 We want to have inter-ethnic community.

02:12:53 Do you have an issue with that?

02:12:55 Like little Czechoslovakia, is that kind of what you're saying? 0.93

02:12:59 Like a bunch of white people, Eastern European, you're like, ah. 0.94

02:13:02 Yeah, they're a bunch of people and they decide they want to be a mixed people. 0.98

02:13:05 Should they be allowed to preserve that? 1.00

02:13:07 A small group?

02:13:09 It's irrelevant.

02:13:10 Just a group of people.

02:13:11 Here in the United States?

02:13:12 A country of make-believe.

02:13:15 A country of make-believe.

02:13:16 So you're saying some white people from America, 0.68

02:13:18 they go to a new place,

02:13:20 and they say,

02:13:21 we want to start a new ethnicity,

02:13:22 and so we're going to go there. 1.00

02:13:23 No, no, no.

02:13:24 They're okay,

02:13:24 whether it's ethnos,

02:13:25 whether it's nations.

02:13:26 They are okay

02:13:27 with having a bunch of different folks together.

02:13:30 I would say that it is biblically permissible,

02:13:32 but should not be normative.

02:13:34 you also do see how that in time that would all of that would synthesize into one single ethnicity

02:13:40 you see how that would occur and then by the way would they still bring people in like i mean oh i

02:13:45 mean i think brazil and all these countries that are mixed ethnic creating a new ethnicity i think

02:13:50 are as a people group distinct and i think generally speaking i don't think they have an

02:13:55 issue with their countries yes you can point to whatever corruption is going on there i think the

02:13:59 broader conversation is if God is provident, if God is sovereign over all of this, these places

02:14:05 already exist, and America is already, you could argue whether America was intended to be a white

02:14:09 only nation or a mixed nation, a melting pot, depending on which people you want to cite and

02:14:14 source mine, but these places already exist, and God's providence is already going to be nations

02:14:18 and revelations. That's the end. So whatever God is, whatever's going to happen in between then,

02:14:22 that's already predicted, and we already have these nations of mixed ethnicities. They're here

02:14:26 now i have a question um if this is that little segment is done and i i won't like push back and

02:14:32 i'm just curious um so you said you have you know you pack your pastor got all these members right

02:14:38 interracial members and all that kind of stuff um and are there interracial couples in your in

02:14:44 your church as well okay so let's say that there's um um an interracial couple that's coming to you

02:14:50 uh for marriage counseling they're not married yet um but they're seeking to get married right

02:14:55 that's a great question would you yeah how would you handle that would you discourage that or what

02:14:58 how would you deal with that yeah so i've done this in my premarital counseling if i have you

02:15:03 know two individuals and um and there's um not just different racial but also different it's

02:15:09 different racially but also different ethnicity meaning um some language barriers right or um

02:15:16 like obviously you know like they probably wouldn't be dating if if they couldn't speak at all but

02:15:20 for this gal she's from brazil and english is her second language and this guy you know is white as

02:15:26 the driven snow you know and english is the only thing he knows um then yes i've said this is going

02:15:31 to add extra difficulties it's going to be more challenging marriage is already sanctifying so my

02:15:36 view of marriage in the sanctification category is that in marriage god takes two sinners locks

02:15:41 them into close proximity so that they are uh whether intentionally or inadvertently constantly

02:15:46 stomping on one another's idols marriage is sanctifying period and it's good praise god

02:15:51 that's one of the i would say purposes of marriage procreation sanctification uh gospel

02:15:57 proclamation picture of christ in the church the eternal marriage also a hedge against temptation

02:16:01 if anyone burns with lust let him marry marriage actually is a solution not the only but a solution

02:16:07 one of the ways a young man uh beats wins the the fight against lust is take a wife right so

02:16:14 um because my whole story has been published on the internet um yeah i i failed sexually because

02:16:22 um i waited too long to take a wife once i took a wife by the grace of god now well well over a

02:16:28 decade i have been a faithful man um and praise god for that my wife helped me tremendously

02:16:33 so all that being said yes i have counseled i've told and i've officiated um interracial

02:16:40 marriages because it is biblically permissible. Um, and so, but in my counseling, that would be

02:16:46 one of the things that we would cover. It wouldn't be the main thing. It wouldn't be the chief thing,

02:16:50 but it also would not be nothing. It would be a thing. And I would say, this is chance. Like we

02:16:55 have a young man in our church and he knows that this debate was coming up and he, you know, he's,

02:16:59 he's online and has seen the controversy over the last week on Twitter and all that kind of stuff.

02:17:04 And, uh, and you know, he said, please don't use my name. Cause I'd like to keep my job. You know,

02:17:08 don't, don't dox me because I'm a bit of a lightning rod. Uh, but great guy. And, uh,

02:17:12 he's married to a Brazilian wife and he ends up spending, you know, some years, not always,

02:17:17 but he was like, Joel, he's like, Joel, you think I like spending three months out of the year in

02:17:21 Brazil? It's like, it sucks. And his parents are in-laws, her parents. He's like, I can't talk. 0.99

02:17:28 I can't even talk to them. They don't speak English. He's like, dude, he was like, tell

02:17:32 them in the debate, tell them, um, I love my wife as Christ loves the church. I don't regret my

02:17:37 marriage i wouldn't undo it i love my children and his children are fearfully and wonderfully made

02:17:43 in the image of god as interracial children um he's like but yeah it's way harder yeah yeah it's

02:17:50 way harder and i wish that someone hadn't been a lib and in i wish i had had a pastor like you

02:17:56 like you are now because i didn't always think this way you're right rusla but at the time doing

02:18:00 my premarital counseling and saying you know what this is permissible i will officiate the marriage

02:18:05 But I would be remiss if at some point in our premarital counseling, I did not bring

02:18:09 up the fact that marriage is already sanctifying enough, this is going to make it really hard.

02:18:14 You might want to prayerfully reconsider.

02:18:16 So, Joel, this is what I would add to that. 0.79

02:18:18 I think you would say the same thing if you had a family that was a upper class white 0.83

02:18:24 family that loved Jesus and a trailer park biker gang family. 0.84

02:18:28 A little different because they could still speak the same language. 0.95

02:18:30 Okay, they could still speak the same language.

02:18:32 That would still be easier.

02:18:34 Massive cultural disconnect. 0.99

02:18:35 If you're talking about an upper-middle-class Christian family that loves Jesus and a biker, gang, hell's angel, family from a trailer park. 0.95

02:18:42 Yes, and that massive distance, you're right. 0.95

02:18:43 That massive distance still pales in comparison to the distance I just described.

02:18:47 Joel, I strongly disagree.

02:18:48 The distance I just described includes the distance of even language.

02:18:52 Yeah, the language of in-laws.

02:18:53 Her learning English and him maybe... 1.00

02:18:55 Right, but when you marry a woman, you marry her family.

02:18:57 Those families are united.

02:18:58 Sure, let me add to this.

02:19:00 Marriage is a sanctifying process.

02:19:01 And so if you're marrying someone and you're deciding to potentially learn their language,

02:19:06 potentially learn the things, these are all awesome potential adventures.

02:19:10 So to me, this is all in how you're framing this.

02:19:13 Like, oh, man, our in-laws can't speak.

02:19:14 I got friends that their in-laws can't speak English, and they get along just fine.

02:19:17 And they're able to communicate, and things are great.

02:19:20 And so I think you're pointing to challenges, but these same challenges can be in real existence

02:19:26 in the same race. 0.99

02:19:27 That's what I'm pointing to. 1.00

02:19:28 Not quite the same.

02:19:29 No, I don't think so.

02:19:30 And let me just add this.

02:19:32 As someone that is in an interracial marriage, I have never had any of these challenges.

02:19:37 I've never had, like, literally, my challenges in my marriage have so little to do with culture.

02:19:42 Why? 1.00

02:19:42 Because my wife is black. 0.76

02:19:44 She grew up in the same city, going to the same type of church, holding the same type of theology.

02:19:48 And I also grew around a bunch of black people.

02:19:52 So I, and I'm Armenian.

02:19:53 I was going to say.

02:19:54 But let me just finish.

02:19:55 The biggest identity issues I had, Joel, was not in my interracial marriage. 0.95

02:20:00 The biggest identity issues I had was being Armenian from Azerbaijan, hanging with a bunch of Glendales, and being super confused. 0.95

02:20:07 And I'm white, but I'm Armenian, and ethnically, that was a way bigger identity issue than my black wife and her amazing family and my beautiful mixed kids. 1.00

02:20:16 So I'm just laying that out for you.

02:20:17 You're talking about an example, and that's a fair example. 0.92

02:20:19 I'm saying I've seen the same thing with white couples that are coming from massive disparity and upbringing. 0.85

02:20:25 This dude's dad is a hell angel. 0.97

02:20:27 He gets drunk and smashes beers.

02:20:28 They come from an amazing family to love Jesus that creates just as much tension

02:20:32 So so I understand I think this is the problem though

02:20:35 I think what we have done especially as Westerners and especially as Americans is

02:20:40 We continue to point out that there are exceptions and there are exceptions

02:20:44 But we point them out ad nauseum and we elevate them as though they're the norm

02:20:49 There are some there are some let me finish there are certainly plenty of cases 0.81

02:20:55 where two white individuals would still have culturally enough differences

02:20:59 that there would be challenges in the marriage.

02:21:03 But if we emphasize that as, like, so it exists everywhere,

02:21:07 the impression that we give people who, like me,

02:21:09 who would have made those arguments, one race, the human race,

02:21:12 the impression that we're giving people is that,

02:21:15 so because that exists, two white individuals with cultural differences

02:21:18 and it produces challenges in the marriage,

02:21:20 because of that, there's really no difference if you marry a Haitian.

02:21:25 no there really is a difference it depends on how many generations has she been here do her parents

02:21:29 love jesus all haitians aren't monolithic joel uh well if you've never met any christians yeah

02:21:35 are we talking about christian we know how many generations they've been hold on slow down

02:21:38 slow down if we're talking about christian haitians that love jesus and are evangelical

02:21:43 post-mill we'll just say your camp those do exist and they're not all monolithic and there

02:21:48 are christian haitians do you know someone yeah i guess i do one of my closest friends is haitian

02:21:52 Yes, I know, yes.

02:21:54 He's post-mill?

02:21:55 No, I'm messing with you and giving you your theology.

02:21:58 I'm saying he's an evangelical, second, third-generation Haitian.

02:22:00 We all know on average what the typical Haitian culture is like.

02:22:04 They congregate around restaurants.

02:22:05 I think you guys should really meet more Haitians, brother.

02:22:07 Respectfully, man.

02:22:08 Haitians are not a monolith.

02:22:09 One of my wife's best friend was Haitian that came in early on.

02:22:12 I know these people, and I know also they congregate around the food and the culture.

02:22:16 They maintain that sense of identity.

02:22:18 We know 90% of Haitians generally identify not with American culture like we're talking about.

02:22:23 They identify with parts of Haiti, and that actually is good and natural.

02:22:26 I identify with parts of Armenia.

02:22:27 Yeah, that's awesome.

02:22:28 People should love their fatherland, love where they came from,

02:22:31 and assimilate into America, and assimilate into Christian heritage. 0.82

02:22:35 When you assimilate, like Ruth, you do leave behind.

02:22:38 And there is, and I've talked to the people, some of them coming from Ukraine.

02:22:42 There's a painful process where they're leaving behind the language,

02:22:44 or leaving behind the customs to become American.

02:22:47 So you actually don't get both ways.

02:22:48 Oh, we're honoring Haiti, and we love the food, and we fly the flag, and we watch the World Cup, and also we're completely American ethnicity. 0.67

02:22:55 Ruth forsook her fathers, her people, and her false Moabite gods.

02:23:00 And that's what people keep pointing to Ruth.

02:23:03 You guys haven't actually done this.

02:23:05 You've been, I think, really respectful.

02:23:08 But Samuel Say, for instance, he was pointing that out.

02:23:11 The difference, I would say, is that Ruth was leaving, in leaving Moab, she was leaving a place where there was no Christian subset population in Moab at the time.

02:23:23 She was leaving a place, a people, that was 100% pagan. 0.79

02:23:27 It was 100% idolatrous.

02:23:29 So she forsook her people, and the Bible, it's not prescriptive, it's descriptive, but in that descriptive passage, it does esteem it.

02:23:36 It elevates it as a good, look at this virtuous thing that Ruth did.

02:23:39 And it was virtuous, not because dishonoring and severing relations from your parents is universally virtuous, but in her particular case, she was leaving for all the right reasons.

02:23:50 Her parents, she, to say, goodbye, Father, and I will never see you again, was honorable because her father worshipped sand demons. 0.61

02:23:58 Her father was a pagan, you know?

02:24:01 But what we have today, like Samuel say, Ghana is 73% Christian. 0.99

02:24:06 so in forsaking his people and coming here it's not i'm forsaking them because they're all pagans 0.96

02:24:13 because they're all non-christians right that's that's different so then the question is oh well

02:24:18 being here are you going to preserve your ghanaian heritage and love that and and try to preserve it

02:24:24 and cherish it pass it down to your children and if so how are you going to do that but also

02:24:28 assimilate here in america like i think you go walk and chew gum at the same time joe respectfully

02:24:35 So do I.

02:24:35 I talk about it all the time, but not here. 1.00

02:24:38 But you have Mexican protesters flying the Mexican flag

02:24:40 as they pelt ICE officers and police in L.A.

02:24:43 And I've condemned all of that publicly.

02:24:44 Yeah, but do you see that they're here with an allegiance elsewhere?

02:24:47 But you're trying to get, it's the is-to-ot fallacy.

02:24:52 Like, just because it is hard or just because these people are doing it, 0.55

02:24:54 that doesn't mean you ought not to get married to an interracial person. 1.00

02:24:57 This is a breakdown in the logic that I'm trying to point to. 1.00

02:24:58 We allowed it as permissible.

02:25:00 Yeah, but we already looked at how that's not a formidable category.

02:25:03 I went to the text for you.

02:25:05 So you still haven't made the point, whether from scripture, and again, if these things were the

02:25:08 exceptions to the rule, when we see them in church history, when we see John Wolfe marrying

02:25:13 Pocahontas, who became Rebecca, and there's an entire thing laid out in an Anglican church in

02:25:17 1614, citing the historical significance, there should have been an asterisk there. Because when

02:25:22 there's a, hey, this guy is an asterisk, there should be an asterisk, there's an exception to

02:25:26 the rule. When we see polygamy, it's an exception to the rule, because there was some Muslim that 0.99

02:25:29 had four wives, and he heard his sermon, he came to Jesus, and there's an asterisk there. But you 0.98

02:25:33 don't see this in church history. And I can go through missionary after missionary, Miguel

02:25:37 Rodriguez, a Spanish creator, a Christian soldier, Mary Louisa Delgo, the free black woman in St.

02:25:43 Augustine. Like we see this over and over and there's never an asterisk next to them, but this

02:25:47 is not normative. If there was a dude in your church that was polygamous and you're like, man,

02:25:52 I don't know, do you get rid of these wives? There would be an asterisk. It's clearly not normative. 1.00

02:25:55 It's clearly not in God's design. And that again, you guys have not been able to establish this

02:25:59 from scripture we don't see any prohibition on it and and i i don't see it from scripture or

02:26:04 church history i don't know if you want to chime in no i think that's i was going to say do you

02:26:07 want to maybe make one final closing statement i know you have one more thing to say we're getting

02:26:11 close to five so we've got to hit the super chats sure sure but uh if you wanted to take it and

02:26:15 maybe land the plane yeah sure sure yeah so um yeah from so from what we our position is

02:26:21 whether or not intermarriage goes against God's natural design. The answer that we see from 0.95

02:26:29 Scripture is a resounding no. The only type of reservation and condemnation that we see in the

02:26:35 Scripture in regards to intermarriage is with those who would lead you astray from the true 0.58

02:26:43 worship of the true God. That's it. We do not see any prohibition from intermarriage in general. 1.00

02:26:51 It's only to those who would lead you away from God. And we have examples of this, of where 1.00

02:26:58 marrying the women and the Canaanites and all this kind of stuff led the Israelites away, 0.80

02:27:06 integrating with them and messing with them. The Medianites led them astray into worship of false 0.99

02:27:10 gods uh what we have is in first corinthians it says that a woman who uh is is free to marry 0.94

02:27:17 is free to marry whoever she wishes and the only stipulation it gives is only in the lord so as

02:27:26 long as the uh the the spouse is in the lord that is it that is the only stipulation otherwise you 0.68

02:27:34 would be unequally yoked um a believer being unequally yoked with a disbeliever um um we we

02:27:42 see uh uh this throughout the lineage of jesus um he has uh mixed mixed uh people within his

02:27:50 lineage rahab um who was a canaanite uh woman um obviously ruth the moabite woman um we're seeing

02:27:58 that this is even in the line of our messiah how can we say that this is not for ordained and

02:28:03 planned by God. You know what I'm saying? So does this go against God's normal design according to

02:28:10 scripture? No, it does not. We see the opposite. Okay. I'll give just a little bit of, I wanted

02:28:18 to talk about the Tower of Babel and also creation, but just one response to that, I would just say

02:28:23 a woman, a single Christian woman is free to marry whom she wishes in the Lord. And that would

02:28:29 include, I just want the record to state, that would include a five-year-old boy, so long as

02:28:33 He's made a credible profession and been baptized.

02:28:37 Correct.

02:28:39 Okay.

02:28:39 So what I...

02:28:40 That's a straw man.

02:28:40 Gosh!

02:28:41 Come on, man.

02:28:42 This is...

02:28:43 Come on.

02:28:43 We're up for restrictions.

02:28:44 No.

02:28:44 That was terrible.

02:28:46 Listen, listen, Joel, you were very upset about folks calling you racist and all this.

02:28:51 We haven't came here calling you racist.

02:28:53 We haven't came here strawmanning you.

02:28:54 We genuinely came here trying to understand your guys' position.

02:28:57 I thought it'd be a bit better demonstrated from scripture.

02:29:00 It hasn't.

02:29:01 And so let's not strawman. 0.89

02:29:02 That's silly.

02:29:03 it's not a straw man 0.96

02:29:04 anyone she wishes

02:29:08 and yet we all five agree

02:29:10 that there actually would still be some

02:29:12 forbearance

02:29:14 we all agree

02:29:15 although it's not explicitly stated in the text

02:29:18 so I'm just pointing that out, that exists

02:29:20 okay, so this is what I was going to say

02:29:22 in terms of creation and the Tower of Babel

02:29:23 so a lot of people use the Tower of Babel and say

02:29:25 look, this is God's judgment and it is

02:29:27 Babel was a judgment 0.96

02:29:29 but what's important I think for people to realize 0.73

02:29:31 is that there's two sins, not merely one

02:29:33 So one is the sin of arrogance, blatant, unbridled arrogance and pride.

02:29:37 They wanted to build a tower that stretched to the heavens so that they could be as God, right?

02:29:42 So there's the arrogance factor, and God sends a judgment because of that.

02:29:45 But there's a second sin, and it's actually listed in the text.

02:29:49 The second sin is it says, let us build a tower that stretches to the heavens so that we might be as God,

02:29:54 so that we will not, and make a great name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the face of the earth.

02:29:58 And I would tie that into the dominion mandate.

02:30:01 So I believe in a prelapsarian world, even if sin never entered the world, in Genesis chapter 3, that the natural fulfillment and obedience to the cultural mandate that was given by God to Adam, that it actually would have naturally developed over time different races and also different, multiple, different, some different races and many different ethnicities.

02:30:20 that the dominion mandate was to be fruitful and multiply and to fill the earth. So it was

02:30:26 that God would have many image-bearing creatures to worship him, and that they would also fill

02:30:32 the whole temple, that the garden, I think that this is implicit in scripture, that the garden

02:30:37 was, Adam was to work and keep. Work is to tend, and I would say to grow the garden, to actually

02:30:43 cultivate and advance the garden, that that garden that was a geographic locale, that with his

02:30:49 stewardship, good stewardship over the garden, over the earth, that he would expand its borders,

02:30:54 that even before sin entered the world, there were still deserted wilderness type places. Adam was

02:30:58 actually created in such a place. He was made in the wilderness, the text says, and then placed by

02:31:03 God in the garden. And then Eve was made from Adam from his flank as a suitable helpmate to him in

02:31:09 the garden. So there were desolate places. I believe that the dominion mandate would be that

02:31:13 Adam and Eve would be fruitful and multiply. There would be many triune worshipers and these 1.00

02:31:19 trying worshipers would not just be congregated and isolated in one place, but in working and

02:31:23 keeping, advancing and defending his role in the garden. The garden would actually advance and

02:31:29 increase and fill the whole earth. So you would have an all earth encompassing garden and the

02:31:33 whole earth would be filled with these image bearing creatures worshiping the Lord. And that

02:31:37 over time, going across seas and mountain ranges and rivers and desolate climates, more hot climates,

02:31:43 more cold climates, all these different things that you would naturally develop through nature,

02:31:48 you would develop different peoples that would have distinctions at first. It would be just

02:31:53 different accents and dialects, eventually devolving into different languages and these

02:31:58 kinds of things, and depending if they live closer to the equator or further, different pigment and

02:32:02 skin and all these different things. So I think that different races was always God's intended

02:32:07 thing, even in a prelapsarian world if sin never entered. If sin entered, which it did in Genesis 0.77

02:32:12 chapter 3, if man, having sinned, still committed himself to the Lord and wanted to be obedient

02:32:18 thereafter, then I believe the same thing. People would spread out and fill the earth and you would

02:32:23 get different races. In the Tower of Babel, what you have is now you have disobedience in the 0.98

02:32:28 garden, sin enters the world and through sin, death, but also you have further doubling down,

02:32:32 tripling down, quadrupling down of rebellion against God. And one of those, a heightened

02:32:38 descriptive passage of that rebellion reaching a culmination is at Babel where there's unbridled

02:32:44 arrogance, let's rival God, build a tower that stretches to the heavens so that we may be as 0.71

02:32:49 God and make a great name for ourself, but then a second sin so that we won't do exactly what Adam

02:32:54 was commanded to do in the cultural mandate. We will not spread out and fill the earth, but rather

02:32:59 we can congregate. We're going to do this so that we can rival God in terms of our name, but also

02:33:05 so that we can rebel against God in terms of his mandate to fill the earth. We want to congregate.

02:33:11 And so Babel, I believe that what God does when he goes and divides their languages is a judgment for their sin, two sins, but it's a judgment wrapped in mercy. 0.90

02:33:22 Babel serves as a catalyst of God actually supernaturally quick-starting what would have happened naturally over time had they obeyed. 0.90

02:33:31 It produced different peoples. 0.99

02:33:32 The different languages caused them then to split up. 0.76

02:33:35 And as they split up over generations, over time, centuries, in different climates, in

02:33:40 different places, speaking different languages, with different diets, it created different

02:33:44 peoples.

02:33:45 And so I believe that different races were always God's idea. 0.92

02:33:48 It would have happened if sin never entered the world. 0.98

02:33:50 It would have happened if people obeyed after sin entered the world. 0.84

02:33:53 And he made it happen, even with people disobeying after sin entered the world through Babel 0.95

02:33:57 kickstarting the supernatural catalyst.

02:33:59 All that said, Revelation 7-9, the end game is that we would actually celebrate diversity, different peoples around the throne of God in heaven for eternity.

02:34:09 But that scenario does not play out if diversity is not at some level preserved here on earth.

02:34:17 You don't get eternal diversity if you steamroll diversity temporally.

02:34:22 So we believe that nations are good, they're God's normative plan, and that if anyone is

02:34:28 encouraging or promoting at scale in the macro as a positive, virtuous, universal good, mass

02:34:37 interracial marriage, that that actually goes against God's normative plan. It is permissible 0.97

02:34:44 in the micro, might even be ideal in a micro situation, and a pastor or a father can counsel

02:34:51 accordingly with his congregant with his daughter with his son but in the macro if i'm if i'm

02:34:57 presented with only two choices after being called a racist after being uh publicly slandered saying

02:35:04 that joel is for capital punishment for interracial marriage and then right now before everyone tell

02:35:10 us are you for or against those two options then i would say yes i would be generally against for 0.97

02:35:17 you're encouraging, promoting, advancing against your warning, counseling, saying I think that

02:35:25 in general, biblically permissible in the micro, but in general in the macro, this goes against

02:35:31 the normative plan of God for peoples, nations, and cultures. That's my argument. That's how I

02:35:38 would describe it from the Bible in a macro view using descriptive text. There's no prescriptive

02:35:43 verse that says do not intermarry racially we we recognize that which is why we don't condemn it

02:35:49 as a sin but i do think that there are enough descriptive texts in the whole narrative

02:35:54 scripture to say yeah this is the norm this is the norm so you guys ask for my bible that's that's

02:36:00 my bible it's a macro descriptive argument from scripture and nature now i know you guys obviously

02:36:06 disagree and don't think it's a good argument but i i said i would give you one and and that's what

02:36:10 i got let's go to a commercial break i don't get to make a statement i thought we just did that we

02:36:15 did you we did no you got yeah i mean we don't we won't have a ton of time we don't i really want

02:36:20 to be able to do super chat it's not so eight what time is it right now it's five it's five

02:36:25 so you got to leave when six six thirty yeah yeah probably we don't need one go ahead i would say

02:36:31 you leave you leave at six so do it do it quick let's go to commercial break and we can at least

02:36:35 give like 50 minutes of super chat i'll do my very best okay uh that dominion mandate was an

02:36:42 amazing argument from silence joel i have never heard anything that exhaustive from that little

02:36:47 scripture respectfully i think you kind of conceded a debate and you said there's no

02:36:50 prescriptive text you're just weaving together stuff from descriptive passages and a little bit

02:36:55 of natural law reformed theology i don't know i don't know how you come to these i mean i know

02:37:00 how you come to these conclusions but i think it's just it's i'm really impressed with how you

02:37:03 were able to weave all this together. I want to go to John 7. I'm impressed by the sarcasm.

02:37:07 Okay. Because you're laying it on pretty thick. I am. I want to go to John, because I think John

02:37:13 in Romans, excuse me, John speaking in Revelation 7-9, we have the Greek, we have nation, which

02:37:21 means ethos, people group. This is not a race. In any modern biological sense, which again,

02:37:27 that word didn't pop in until about 500 years ago. This is just as modern as a lot of the gender 0.72

02:37:31 theory nonsense. We have tribe clan, which is about a kinship lineage, family lines, Israel's 0.53

02:37:38 use. And then we have people, a covenant word used to describe God's people. John is not collapsing

02:37:44 humanity into a single flattened category. So it's okay, all you white men, it's going to be fine.

02:37:51 Nor is he freezing them into a permanent segregated order. He's doing something much

02:37:57 more dangerous to ethnic purity. He preserves distinction without hierarchy. Why all of this 0.95

02:38:02 undermines this entire natural law equals separation, even though we have no scripture

02:38:06 and we're breaking the rules of logic. If natural law demands ethnic separation as normative,

02:38:13 Revelation 7-9 becomes a problem. There's these distinctions that survive into the very end,

02:38:18 but they survive inside a single redeemed multitude, no hint of boundary enforcement,

02:38:23 no hint of ethnic preservation as a moral duty, no hierarchy of any tribes, nations, or peoples,

02:38:29 and nations and peoples evolve over time as boundaries move and nations sprout up and all

02:38:34 these things change. So John gives us a different redeemed gospel. He gives us a different redeemed

02:38:41 people, not difference guarded. And that's where, in my opinion, this idea of natural law from

02:38:47 creation to natural order, distinct people, moral obligation, Revelation flips that. Creation, fall,

02:38:53 redemption, unified worship with real diversity. If separation were really normative, why does the

02:39:00 final vision not separate these nations? They are together, they are worshiping, they are visibly

02:39:06 diverse, and heaven doesn't rush to correct it. And church history doesn't rush to correct it.

02:39:11 And all the church fathers don't rush to correct it. There's no asterisks next to these names.

02:39:16 So John uses four different Greek words in Revelation 7-9 not to enforce separation,

02:39:22 but to show that redemption doesn't erase difference or moralize it.

02:39:26 The nations aren't purified by distance, they're unified by worship.

02:39:31 That's not liberal theology, that's not Marxism, that's not critical theory,

02:39:34 that's biblical eschatology doing violence to ethnic purity and natural law claims.

02:39:41 And our awesome opponents, who I really did enjoy,

02:39:44 failed to demonstrate this in the New Testament,

02:39:46 they failed to demonstrate it with logic and reason,

02:39:48 And I think the whole idea that there's no prescriptions, in my opinion, there's no prescriptive text on this, concedes the entire premise that was incoherent to begin with.

02:39:57 So that's my final statement.

02:39:58 I'm going to add a 30-second phone a friend.

02:40:00 We had Avery, we had Joel, we had Ruslan.

02:40:02 We did get just a helpful distinction as it relates to permissibility and permissibility.

02:40:06 30 seconds.

02:40:07 We'll go to Super Chat.

02:40:08 He said, this excluded, middle, permissible, impermissible argument is wrong.

02:40:12 The kind of act as permissible is different than an act in concrete circumstances.

02:40:17 An act can be morally permissible in its genus, as a generic kind of act, but illicit in its species when in concrete circumstances, the act is an improper means to what is good.

02:40:26 It is morally permissible for an 18-year-old to marry a 65-year-old, but isn't ordinarily prudent.

02:40:31 I think it was fair to take 30 seconds at the end there.

02:40:34 All right, let's go to commercial break.

02:40:37 This is the final commercial break.

02:40:38 Then we're coming back, and we're doing Super Chats.

02:40:39 If you have a Super Chat, get it in now.

02:40:42 We'll do our best to do every single Super Chat.

02:40:44 We've got a good amount.

02:40:45 We've got about 45 minutes, which means we're going to have,

02:40:47 and I'm talking to myself, but we're going to have to go quick.

02:40:49 Four of us will get through a minute.

02:40:51 Four of us will do just fine.

02:40:53 We'll let you figure out who's the guy who's going to struggle.

02:40:56 We're going to have to do quick responses so that we can get to all the super chats.

02:40:59 All right, here we go.

02:41:00 Last commercial.

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02:42:28 All right, welcome back. We're going to go ahead and dive right in. First Super Chat from Dakota

02:42:32 Davis. He sent in $5. We appreciate you watching and giving. He asked this,

02:42:37 wouldn't the law of liberty permit christians to hold the new christian right view that would be

02:42:42 our view without it being a sin and wouldn't uh ruslam and god logic view be binding the

02:42:48 conscience god bless uh avery i'm going to give that right back to you because that's kind of a

02:42:51 question for you guys is this binding the conscience to say you would must uh that someone

02:42:56 can't affirm what we affirmed in other words uh should is are you binding the conscience to say

02:43:02 that a Christian must promote

02:43:04 or be for interracial marriage?

02:43:08 So our position is simply that

02:43:10 if you can have your preference

02:43:13 in regards to interracial marriage,

02:43:16 like if you want that for yourself or not

02:43:18 or, you know, is your cup of tea or not,

02:43:21 however, what you cannot do

02:43:22 is say that this goes against the Bible,

02:43:25 that this goes against God's design.

02:43:27 That's what we're saying that you cannot do.

02:43:29 Yeah, just to reiterate,

02:43:31 no problem with anyone

02:43:33 having their preferences

02:43:34 and also preferences

02:43:37 in the other direction 0.99

02:43:37 if your daughters all of a sudden 0.99

02:43:39 want to marry a black man 0.99

02:43:40 I don't have a problem 0.91

02:43:41 with that either

02:43:41 right so I think the issue

02:43:43 is when we're taking preference

02:43:44 and we're making prescription

02:43:45 and I don't see any evidence

02:43:47 of that in scripture

02:43:48 so no we're not saying

02:43:49 you got to go promote

02:43:50 interracial marriage

02:43:51 that was never my position 0.99

02:43:53 and I don't think

02:43:55 that I don't even think

02:43:56 it's a tenable debate topic

02:43:57 yeah

02:43:57 moving right on

02:43:58 I'm going to kind of

02:43:59 just go around the table

02:44:00 and that's the question

02:44:00 is specifically to one of the debaters uh drew petty 8293 sent a super chat does it fall into

02:44:06 cons i'm going to have this for you antonio cons categorical imperative the categorical imperative

02:44:11 is only do something if you could reasonably want everyone else to do the same thing in the

02:44:16 same situation yeah that's an interesting question um i guess i i would more think this is a question

02:44:22 for russalon and avery in the sense of uh okay so your position is that interracial marriage is good

02:44:27 that you're generally for it, although you sort of allow for preference.

02:44:32 And so there's this idea of, it's a Kantian idea, it's not necessarily a Christian idea,

02:44:37 but the idea that you shouldn't do something if you wouldn't want everyone to do it.

02:44:42 How do you sort of reconcile that perspective, that Kantian perspective, with your view?

02:44:47 Yeah, I don't follow cons. I don't think that's a tenable position.

02:44:51 I follow a Christian virtue ethic.

02:44:53 And so I think this is one of those things where if people want to get married,

02:44:56 I'm not speaking out against it

02:44:58 Because the scriptures don't speak out against it

02:45:00 I just think it's weird that we're talking Kant

02:45:02 And Darwin

02:45:03 Kant and the moral imperative

02:45:07 And we're backdooring

02:45:08 Everyone from Darwin to Kant

02:45:10 To these conversations

02:45:11 I just don't see any merit to that

02:45:13 There's a Christian virtue ethic laid out in scripture 1.00

02:45:16 And I'm going to follow scripture over Kant

02:45:19 Respectfully

02:45:19 Let the record state we never cited Kant

02:45:21 I know you did

02:45:22 This is what I mean by weird backdoored stuff

02:45:25 I want to be really clear with that, not even for you guys,

02:45:28 but some of our followers would say, I've seen guys.

02:45:31 These aren't necessarily followers, but your argument would be a lot better

02:45:35 if you just embraced evolution, to which I say, no, I'm a Christian.

02:45:39 Done.

02:45:40 No, we believe, I believe that the earth is somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 years old,

02:45:44 that God created the earth in six literal 24-hour days.

02:45:48 He made man on the sixth day, and everyone is descended from Adam.

02:45:51 And then the second go-around, everyone's descended from Noah, 0.73

02:45:53 and one of his three sons but kind of like a ken ham argument so we don't need darwin i say all

02:45:59 that to say we're not bringing in con and we're not bringing in darwin we don't need darwin here's

02:46:02 here's a funny thing so we all like evangelicals are like ken ham's the man you know i've taken my

02:46:07 kids to the ark encounter you know we love it you know it's i'd like to see like a nephilim display

02:46:11 of them drowning to be more accurate but ken ham won't allow it um and so anyways i i like all

02:46:17 that but one of the big arguments that we're all like yeah get him ken ham and he's debating you

02:46:21 bill nye or something like that is he say you know well here's you know what the atheist would

02:46:26 say how could you have all these species we have you know millions of species on the ark you know

02:46:31 the bible gives the measurements the ark's only this big there's no way you could do it and ken

02:46:34 ham says you know well you don't have to have multiple thousand species of dogs all you need

02:46:39 is two dogs and from those dogs each producing to its kind so you don't have macro evolution not

02:46:44 darwinianism but there is micro adaption and you get all the way to great danes to poodles and

02:46:50 chihuahuas and so my point is i think you can biologically have all human beings all the same

02:46:56 species all made in the image of god all descended from adam and descended from noah but you can

02:47:00 still have uh biological distinctions in peoples and and i think that was we see that so it's not

02:47:07 just a social construct and i don't need darwin to prove that i i think that we can prove that

02:47:11 as ken ham proves with dogs from the bible i feel like i can prove a similar concept from the bible

02:47:18 as well. Okay. All right. Uh, I'm going to take this one. This next one is, uh, so actually Ben's

02:47:24 next comment. That's more for you, uh, Ruslan and Avery. And so I'm going to take this first Ben

02:47:29 MP seven, then I'll pass it to you. That's that one. And then we'll hit a, let's talk God. All

02:47:33 right. He's in a two super chats. The first one is, do you feel differently about your sons taking

02:47:36 a wife from a different ethnicity than giving your daughters to the man of a different ethnicity? 0.86

02:47:41 I would say generally, yes. You think of, uh, the Israelites, for example, when they go into Jericho 0.89

02:47:45 and conquered. They were allowed to take, for example, war brides. There was a sense in which

02:47:49 they're brought in, they adopt, they bring their gods. But in giving a daughter in marriage,

02:47:53 especially in the old sense, there was a sense where she would take over. She would go to the 0.87

02:47:58 her, his father's house. She would go to their culture. She would go even sometimes even to 0.99

02:48:02 their gods. We see Leah stealing the gods from her father. And so generally, I would say there's a 0.58

02:48:07 little bit of a difference. And bringing in is typically more the way it goes than going out.

02:48:12 okay uh so then i'll pass it to you guys this next one for those who opposed or is this one

02:48:19 for us do you think i don't all right let's give you the next one let's talk god uh what is the

02:48:23 issue with boaz and ruth's interracial marriage hebrews and moabite i'm sorry guys most of these

02:48:30 are for us what is the issue right so they're saying like since you are generally opposed

02:48:36 what it would be the issue with that they're hebrew midianite isn't that interracial and

02:48:39 that's a problem there's not an issue um but i will point this out wes you and i have talked

02:48:44 about this that it is a little bit different than someone coming from the other side of the planet

02:48:48 thousands of and here's the deal like the ken ham argument that i just made with you know one

02:48:53 one female and one male dog on the ark and then you know over time you get different you know

02:48:58 not species but subspecies you know or whatever types of dogs still within its kind i would say

02:49:04 there's a couple things. Today, we are further removed. There's been more time for different

02:49:10 distinctions, even at a biological level, to develop. There's more time than in biblical

02:49:15 times, like, you know, Ruth being a Moabite. And two, because of planes, trains, and automobiles, 0.99

02:49:21 and, you know, technological innovation, and these kinds of things, as well as pretty funky,

02:49:25 that I don't like political policies that have eroded borders, and mass immigration,

02:49:30 these kinds of things. It's very different than in biblical times. A lot of what you're looking at

02:49:35 is, and I'm not saying there aren't any exceptions to this, but a lot of the examples

02:49:39 from this tribe over here to the Israelite tribe, these are like 60, 80 mile distances.

02:49:47 New Jersey to Connecticut.

02:49:48 Yeah. And you're talking about maybe a thousand years removed from Noah, right? Or 1500 years

02:49:53 removed from Noah. So you're Noah functioning as a second Adam. I know Christ is spiritually 0.78

02:49:58 speaking, the true final second Adam. But Noah, in the sense of creationally and physically,

02:50:04 a second Adam, it all starts over with him. So you're talking about everyone descending from 0.83

02:50:09 one man the second time, Noah, and 1,500 years removed instead of more like 4,500 years. That's

02:50:17 a big time difference. And we're migrating 60 miles instead of 6,000 miles. There are some

02:50:25 big differences. That's just at the, you know, talking about the physical side. Spiritually,

02:50:29 the moral component, I would say there is no issue. It was a full-fledged rejection.

02:50:36 When she says, your God will be my God and your people will be my people, what that implies is to 0.90

02:50:44 fully embrace the God of Israel and the people of Israel, there's a full rejection of the Moabite 0.58

02:50:49 gods and the Moabite peoples. And so this is what we call true assimilation. She's assimilating 0.99

02:50:55 religiously, linguistically, culturally, at every level. But here's the thing, and this is,

02:51:03 I don't think it's a coincidence. I understand it's descriptive, not prescriptive, but

02:51:06 it's still there, and I think there's something there. Ruth doesn't become queen of Israel,

02:51:11 and I understand patriarchy. I'm patriarchal. But even her first son, right? It's Ruth and Boaz.

02:51:17 they beget Obed. And then Obed, he begets Jesse, and Jesse begets David. By the time you get to 0.75

02:51:24 David, and I think this is my answer to what is a heritage American and how it gets into

02:51:29 multiple generations. By the time you get to David, he is 87.5% Hebrew. And he's a man after

02:51:37 God's own heart, and he is fit to be the second king in Israel, seceding Saul. And so my point is,

02:51:45 even in the case of Ruth, number one, you have full rejection, full assimilation. Number two, 0.69

02:51:49 only, you know, centuries removed from Noah and not 4,500 years removed from Noah. Number three,

02:51:58 also a much smaller distance. And number four, it's not until the fourth generation that God

02:52:05 sees fit that one of her descendants would be a true Israelite in every sense of the word fit

02:52:10 to sit on the throne. That would be my answer. You guys have any response to that?

02:52:15 before we just get to the next question.

02:52:16 Any thoughts?

02:52:17 Okay.

02:52:18 All right.

02:52:19 We'll get to Ben, MP7's second question.

02:52:21 Antonio, I'll give this to you.

02:52:22 For those that are opposed, I think it's to our side.

02:52:25 Where do you draw the line?

02:52:26 Swedes and Italians are different people 0.99

02:52:27 but have more in common with each other than with Africans. 0.74

02:52:30 What is a biblical principle for this? 0.99

02:52:31 Well, hopefully we've tried to demonstrate

02:52:35 that the whole conversation around interracial marriage

02:52:38 is a matter of not prescription,

02:52:42 but a matter of prudence and wisdom.

02:52:45 And so when we think about this, for example, there's this concept of compatibility we referenced several times, the idea or the principle that when a man and a woman come together, that they ought to be more compatible on all of the dimensions that we've talked about, from language to custom and tradition.

02:53:04 I think Ruslan raised the point of geography even.

02:53:08 And so we believe that in line with that principle, right, the idea that you should be more compatible and not less, that is the basis with which you could judge in a particular sense or at the individual level whether something is better or worse or more ideal or less ideal.

02:53:27 So that's how I'd answer that.

02:53:29 This idea that you can make a moral claim on the basis of a gradient.

02:53:34 You can make a moral claim on the basis of something being better or worse.

02:53:37 Can you make a moral claim in that culture is often the most important aspect?

02:53:43 And yes, not all culture is the same.

02:53:45 And my concern is that oftentimes there's an inflation of race and culture.

02:53:50 I've heard it with the constant rhetoric against black people, conflating all black culture is monolithic.

02:53:56 I've heard it consistently, right?

02:53:57 So Christian culture, black folks raised in an upper middle class dual family household 0.91

02:54:02 are going to be way different than folks raised in Chicago. 0.99

02:54:05 Totally different cultures. 1.00

02:54:06 Both race are black, right? 1.00

02:54:08 You see my concern there? 0.99

02:54:10 Do you believe, just a quick follow-up, do you believe that upper class suburban black,

02:54:16 you know, a black family would have any distinctions culturally from an upper, suburban sort of

02:54:20 upper class white family?

02:54:22 They'd have minor distinctions, but I think there's families that live in the same neighborhood,

02:54:26 celebrate the same holidays.

02:54:26 Yeah, certainly. 0.92

02:54:27 And you've got a lot of white kids that use black slang. 0.67

02:54:30 I mean, how many times have we said, what is it, banger, OG?

02:54:33 We used a lot of black slang today.

02:54:34 Like, if we're going to be honest, right?

02:54:35 So I think there's overlaps of culture, and there's stuff that white culture borrows from 0.69

02:54:39 black people, and black culture assimilates to white culture. 0.69

02:54:42 Yeah.

02:54:43 And again, these are very broad.

02:54:45 Yeah, yeah.

02:54:45 And we didn't really get into this, but I do think it should be said that there's different

02:54:49 levels of analysis.

02:54:50 like you might agree that race is more of more of a blunt at the higher level or broader level

02:54:55 of analysis and then of course we would i think both agree that you can sort of double click into

02:54:59 that and say okay of this race you know of for the black race we'll take that example and you have

02:55:05 within the continent of africa you have a lot of people that are a part of the black race at that

02:55:10 level of analysis but then of course you can go in and see west africans and east africans yeah

02:55:14 see the distinction i think the hard part is that africans don't identify like that like when i'm

02:55:18 talking to Ethiopians, they don't, they identify very different from Ghanians and Nigerians. They

02:55:22 don't even see themselves like that. They don't see themselves as black? No, not generally. I've

02:55:26 sat down with Ethiopians recently, evangelical Ethiopians, second, third generation, had a

02:55:29 beautiful conversation in America today. And they said, yeah, our parents never really identified

02:55:33 as black. This is fairly common within certain pockets of black people. So that's what I'm

02:55:38 saying. So like, I think a lot of the conflation that's often happening is a hasty generalization

02:55:42 fallacy where you're pulling out 0.5% of black men that commit all the violent crime. And then

02:55:48 you're saying well black men are more violent and it's like yes i understand proportionality

02:55:52 but this is going back to the uh correlation is not causation aspect of things just because some 0.81

02:55:58 black men a very small percentage of black men commit a lot of crime that doesn't mean the

02:56:01 average black man is going to commit a crime when you factor in culture upbringing household dual 0.91

02:56:05 like your experience as a black man is going to be very different coming from a dual parent 0.98

02:56:10 christian household than someone that's brought up you know with one parent growing up in poverty

02:56:15 very stark contrasts right yeah so i just wanted to make that distinction between culture and race

02:56:20 because i think it's it's often conflated and i think if i'm gonna be honest if i'm gonna just

02:56:24 like give you guys the most charitable view i think what we really agree on is culture as the

02:56:29 ultimate culture and faith the intertwining of culture and faith and i think faith as the north

02:56:34 star and the highest priority than culture yeah i actually i completely agree i think that's where

02:56:38 if i had to synthesize what's where we're sort of disagreeing it's that of all of the dimensions in

02:56:43 marriage that you would say, hey, you would agree that it's better to be more compatible with your

02:56:47 wife. You're not going to make like a yin and yang approach. Well, me and my wife are very

02:56:50 opposites. Yeah, right. But in terms of geography, all these different elements you can imagine. 0.73

02:56:55 And we're simply saying race is also an element of your identity, which I think, which I made the

02:57:00 point, I think black people understand. I think a lot of different people understand that around

02:57:03 the world. And I'm saying that's one more sort of element of identity that ought to be considered

02:57:09 with respect to compatibility.

02:57:11 And I would have no problem

02:57:12 with anything you just said

02:57:14 until you go, 0.99

02:57:15 I'm against interracial marriage 1.00

02:57:16 or the scriptures, 1.00

02:57:18 this is not God's normative design

02:57:20 for interracial marriage.

02:57:20 Does that make sense? 0.98

02:57:21 Do you think it's better or worse

02:57:22 to be more compatible with your wife?

02:57:24 I think it depends on what we're talking about

02:57:25 being compatible.

02:57:26 I just listed some of the dimensions,

02:57:27 language, customs, culture, identity.

02:57:30 Yeah, I'm saying you could have

02:57:31 all of those things

02:57:32 and be of different races.

02:57:33 You could be more compatible.

02:57:34 I agree that it occurs.

02:57:36 My question, I'll ask it again.

02:57:37 So therefore, it is not against God's design.

02:57:40 I'll ask it again.

02:57:41 Do you think it's better or worse to be more compatible with your wife?

02:57:44 You would say, yes, I do.

02:57:45 Do you think race is an element of identity?

02:57:48 I think race is a junk drawer term that we've created that is used way broader today than

02:57:56 it has been historically, that has been in Scripture, and that it is used worldwide today. 0.96

02:58:00 Should black people call themselves black in America?

02:58:02 I think they can call themselves whatever they want. 0.89

02:58:03 If they want to call themselves Haitian, if they want to call themselves Ghanaian, Nigerian,

02:58:06 whatever they want to call themselves. 1.00

02:58:07 Descendants of slaves, whatever you want to call themselves.

02:58:09 So the idea, what I'm trying to lay out, 0.87

02:58:12 is that you acquiesce the idea you should be more compatible with your wife.

02:58:16 You recognize that race, though conflated, I think that's the term you use,

02:58:19 though conflated, race is an element of identity.

02:58:22 And basically, in the syllogism, we're putting those two things together

02:58:24 and saying, okay, race is an element of identity

02:58:26 that should be considered with respect and prudence

02:58:29 to compatibility with your spouse.

02:58:31 That's the point. That's literally our whole argument.

02:58:33 But the Martin Bailey fallacy, yet again, that all sounds sensible.

02:58:36 hey, you should consider race, you should consider culture,

02:58:38 you should consider upbringing, you should consider combality, 1.00

02:58:40 then I'm against interracial marriage and it is incompatible with God's design. 0.99

02:58:44 Given two choices, are you for, promoting, encouraging, advancing, or against, 0.98

02:58:49 and then immediately clarifying it by saying,

02:58:54 I normally or generally believe that it goes against God's ordinary or normative.

02:58:59 I think it's a false binary that you allowed yourself to be pushed into, Joel.

02:59:02 I don't think you even need to entertain that binary.

02:59:05 area. Nathan, can you scroll down to the

02:59:07 $99 super chat? I want to honor this

02:59:09 person that wrote in

02:59:11 the question they had. I'll give it to whichever party

02:59:13 it is for. It's highlighted in yellow.

02:59:15 You can't miss it.

02:59:17 I see green.

02:59:20 Dr. John sent in

02:59:21 a $99 super chat, very generous,

02:59:23 and said, do not be unequally

02:59:25 yoked applies to more than salvation?

02:59:28 If yes, applies to

02:59:29 ethnicity and culture more than vague term

02:59:31 race, which does seem to map onto ethnicity

02:59:33 to some degree.

02:59:35 If any of this is correct,

02:59:36 then there seems to be arguing

02:59:37 degrees of being unyoked, right?

02:59:40 I actually think that's a good assessment.

02:59:41 That would be the position you're arguing.

02:59:43 There's a disconnect.

02:59:45 And so we're arguing degrees of disconnect

02:59:47 where they matter,

02:59:48 what we can argue is God's normative design.

02:59:49 So thank you again

02:59:50 for that generous super chat.

02:59:51 We'll go to the top and keep taking them.

02:59:53 All right.

02:59:55 This dude rocks.

02:59:56 He says it's for the opposition.

02:59:58 I think that's us though.

02:59:59 We're in the affirmative.

03:00:00 He says this is for the opposition,

03:00:02 but I think he's asking this to us.

03:00:03 you guys can tell me what you think. He said this, opposition, what is the biblical exegetical reason

03:00:08 for it being inherently wrong for one race or another to be eventually diluted away from a

03:00:13 current DNA? Are we relying on the table of Babel? And that would be an argument I made in my opening

03:00:17 statement that it would be generally sad to see any number of groups of people lose their

03:00:22 distinctiveness, lose their identity. And I would root that in scripture, so he's asking for scripture.

03:00:26 One of the greatest judgments that can come across individuals and even nations is that they would

03:00:30 have no posterity, that Abraham and Sarah, that infertility was the greatest curse on their life.

03:00:35 And later on, we see different judgments, and they relate to having no posterity. So if you look at

03:00:41 a people and you say, and then their posterity in many ways, either they don't have any, or the ones

03:00:47 that resemble them go so far away that they keep none of the customs and habits and religions of

03:00:51 the people. I think all through the Bible, they recognized, no, it's important. I understand that 0.85

03:00:56 interracial marriage still produces offspring, valid offspring, children made in the image of God.

03:01:00 But I think that's what he's getting at. 0.54

03:01:01 That's how from the Bible, I would argue it.

03:01:04 Okay, next.

03:01:06 So this dude rocks again.

03:01:07 He said, to in favor, which is probably to Ruslan and Avery.

03:01:12 What can we draw from Scripture that God forced cultural differences by language in Babel

03:01:19 and encourages it through genetic advantages to racial kin and creates difficulties otherwise? 0.64

03:01:28 Genetic advantages.

03:01:30 What are they saying?

03:01:33 I don't know.

03:01:34 What do you think, Wes?

03:01:35 Genetic advantages.

03:01:37 Yeah, I didn't bring them up, the literature on this.

03:01:39 And just for the record, I have a degree in neuroscience and behavior from Columbia University,

03:01:42 my master's in public health from the University of Texas.

03:01:45 So I've authored peer-reviewed papers.

03:01:47 When you look at the peer-reviewed literature, there's some literature suggesting that children

03:01:51 that are the product of two races coming together, as far as lifespan goes, as far as depression,

03:01:55 anxiety other elements of identity and behavioral problems that they experience more of those you

03:02:01 could also think of organ and bone marrow donation that when someone is mixed race it's much harder

03:02:06 to find someone to be a donor and so what he might be saying is he's asking you guys what do you make

03:02:10 of those biological realities that objectively someone that is mixed race the offspring of two

03:02:15 races that they will not be able to receive bone marrow from their father or their mother and

03:02:20 they're gonna have to look and there's stories about this far and wide to find a match yeah

03:02:24 again, is a fallacy.

03:02:26 Two, we need more registries for interracial people. 1.00

03:02:29 So I would put yourself on a bone marrow transplant 0.99

03:02:31 to more registries.

03:02:32 Three, have more families, have bigger families, excuse me. 0.97

03:02:35 Have interracial people, that's how you fix it. 1.00

03:02:37 If you have kids, your kids are 25% connected on bone marrow. 1.00

03:02:41 The more kids you have, the more likely you are

03:02:43 to have more options for bone marrow transplant.

03:02:44 I think we would all champion bigger families.

03:02:47 Amen?

03:02:47 Yeah.

03:02:47 I think that's how we fix that.

03:02:49 Well, if I could, I think the question,

03:02:51 and so it's treating the story of Babel

03:02:54 and then the genetic element separately,

03:02:56 but I think the question is more of

03:02:58 what do you actually make of that

03:02:59 with respect to the genetic advantages

03:03:01 in terms of God's design, if you will,

03:03:04 and the way of... 0.91

03:03:04 You're saying because mixed-race people

03:03:07 have a harder time getting bone marrow,

03:03:12 therefore they don't have the same genetic advantage?

03:03:16 What is God saying in that?

03:03:18 That's what that question is asking.

03:03:19 Like, how can we interpret nature to better understand the character of God and God's purpose in creation?

03:03:24 I don't think that that's telling anything about God's design when it comes to humans getting together interracially.

03:03:31 I don't think that has anything to do with what God has ordered.

03:03:36 I mean, like, we're fallen and have genetic problems as just human beings, period.

03:03:41 Would that mean that God, you know, is God saying something in that we bleed and, you know, we get diseases?

03:03:47 we're in a fallen world. 0.77

03:03:50 It starts sounding like eugenics, if I'm going to be honest.

03:03:52 Like, only maintain people because they have a specific leader in me,

03:03:56 and it's like, it gets very dicey.

03:03:56 Well, to be fair with incest, God says not to do it,

03:03:59 and it destroys people.

03:04:01 It produces individuals that are severely pertinent.

03:04:04 There's a genetic reason. 0.78

03:04:05 Not to that degree, interracial marriage, but we surmise from that. 0.57

03:04:07 God's also telling us.

03:04:08 He didn't just write it in Scripture.

03:04:10 He wrote it in nature. 0.95

03:04:11 Don't marry your sister to a lesser degree, a much lesser degree.

03:04:14 To a lesser degree, I think what they're asking is, 0.54

03:04:16 well in a racial marriage we see some of these also disadvantages to which you would say i don't

03:04:21 view that as the evidence being strong enough to say that's revealing anything yeah there's all

03:04:25 kinds of anomalies and there's people that have genetic diseases for all sorts of random stuff

03:04:29 right so yeah yeah some some of it can't be helped but like when you were saying get diseases or

03:04:33 bleed or something like i feel like often um often god is telling us something but like if you bleed

03:04:39 every time you cut yourself with a knife i think god through nature is saying stop cutting yourself

03:04:43 What about the families that have, let's say, the mother and the grandmother

03:04:50 and have a history of getting cancer through the family?

03:04:54 Does that mean that God is saying, is God saying something there

03:04:58 within that same family of the same culture, same race?

03:05:01 They smoke a pack a day, maybe.

03:05:03 In terms of your diet and exercise.

03:05:07 Maybe.

03:05:08 There could be things.

03:05:09 Maybe.

03:05:09 So I wouldn't say inherently, but maybe.

03:05:11 It depends.

03:05:12 All right.

03:05:13 Next.

03:05:13 James Strong said in $5, he said this. 0.97

03:05:16 I think this is a silly comment. 0.70

03:05:17 I think it's for us. 0.89

03:05:18 He said, I'm 50% Mexican and my wife is 25% Italian.

03:05:21 Do we have enough shared whiteness for our marriage to be in God's normative?

03:05:25 Yes, you do. 0.93

03:05:26 So in that scenario, I think what you're implying by saying your wife is 25% Italian

03:05:31 is you're implying that the other 75% is European. 0.58

03:05:35 And then with you being 50% Mexican, you're implying that the other 50% is European. 0.56

03:05:40 So in that scenario, you have 75% white. 0.68

03:05:43 you have 50% white, and so what you're going to end up having in that scenario is whatever it is,

03:05:50 it's 67.5, I think, right, would be, you know, the makeup. Yeah, I think that that is a great

03:05:58 match. Again, remember our position. The position is that we're not drawing a harsh condemnation on

03:06:04 interracial marriage, period. But if you, you're obviously being sarcastic, but if you were actually

03:06:09 asking me um and saying look um i'm i'm mixed um i have you know um a mixed makeup and this woman 0.71

03:06:17 has a mixed makeup um but uh we're both interracial to some extent and the mexican thing honestly

03:06:24 even that's debatable uh you know whether or not that's actually mixed race uh and we you know we

03:06:29 could get into that but the point is um you're looking at 50 and 75 are like the the two greatest

03:06:36 compositions for her being 75% and you 50%. Yeah, I think that's great. I know you don't mean this

03:06:44 as a serious question, but yeah. All right. Godlogic, I'm going to toss this to you so you

03:06:48 guys get a chance to go. Godlogic, this is from Luke, a bunch of letters. All right. He says,

03:06:56 how does Leviticus 25, 44 through 46 relate to 1934? I'll read it for you quick. Leviticus 25,

03:07:02 44 through 46 says as for your male and female slaves whom you have you may buy male and female

03:07:07 slaves from among the nations that are around you you may also buy them from the strangers who

03:07:11 sojourner with you and their clans that are with you who have been born in your land and they may

03:07:15 be your property you may bequeath them to your sons after you inherit in a possession after you

03:07:20 to inherit them as a possession forever you may make slaves of them but over your brothers the

03:07:23 people of israel you shall not rule over one another ruthlessly and leviticus 19 uh leviticus

03:07:30 19 i think you cited it in your opening statement true it's the one that you were citing and saying

03:07:35 you treat them exactly the same and so he's just pointing out that uh you actually don't yeah okay

03:07:41 so not not fully yeah in context uh the ones that they take as slaves and the ones that they keep

03:07:47 as slaves would be the ones who they battled and captured and uh the ones they contended against 0.69

03:07:53 for the land so that that would be different from a foreigner who's coming from a far-off land which

03:07:58 Leviticus 19 talks about, Exodus 1.00

03:08:01 talks about, 12 talks about

03:08:03 where a foreigner comes

03:08:05 and clings to Israel and joins

03:08:07 to Israel and converts and

03:08:09 turns to Yahweh. 0.92

03:08:11 They weren't in battle or opposition

03:08:13 against Yahweh, so therefore they weren't

03:08:15 captive and taken captive as slaves.

03:08:17 So those are two different contexts of slavery. 1.00

03:08:20 Foreigners, sorry. 1.00

03:08:21 Alright, next. 1.00

03:08:23 My eyes are going. BriBri Cruz

03:08:24 sent a super chat and said,

03:08:26 What biblical evidence do they hold to suggest that interracial marriage is wrong?

03:08:30 I think that's on our side.

03:08:31 First of all, we're not saying it's always wrong or a sin.

03:08:33 We're saying it is not normative.

03:08:35 And see the last three hours for our argument.

03:08:39 Ann Favord said,

03:08:40 When you talk about the sons of Noah and their spread to different regions of the earth,

03:08:44 where does it say their offspring should not marry?

03:08:47 Antonio, Joel?

03:08:48 It doesn't.

03:08:50 I mean, that's what we've argued the whole time.

03:08:51 So there's no explicit condemnation against interracial marriage.

03:08:56 Hence, we do not explicitly condemn. 1.00

03:08:59 Correct.

03:08:59 All right, next.

03:09:01 All right.

03:09:02 Tanner Davis sent a $10 super chat and said,

03:09:05 if distinct nations are part of God's good design,

03:09:07 then naturally raises the question of whether

03:09:09 and how they should be preserved with their distinctions.

03:09:11 How do you answer, or are nations not good?

03:09:16 That's probably for Ruslan and Avery.

03:09:19 Can you reread that for me?

03:09:20 I'm sorry, that was kind of mouthy.

03:09:21 If distinct nations are part of God's good design,

03:09:25 this naturally raises the question of whether and how they should be preserved with their

03:09:29 distinctions how do you answer or are nations not good i think the bible presupposes borders but i

03:09:35 think borders evolve and change and people grow and new nations get formed and people come together

03:09:41 i think you have if we're talking about nations and revelation again we're seeing the end of

03:09:45 revelation and yet there's a beautiful tapestry weaved together and god's providence knows all

03:09:52 this. He knew that the people of Brazil were going to be mixed race. He knew the people of Puerto

03:09:55 Rico, well, Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States, you know, feeling like Mexico. So I think 0.95

03:09:59 we see this already happening in God's providence. That's, in my opinion, that's, I mean, that's a

03:10:05 Calvinistic answer. You see the same thing within the nation of Israel itself, like the tribes have

03:10:12 their own borders, but that doesn't mean that they're separated from each other. So I wouldn't

03:10:16 say that borders equal separation. You can have distinction. There's distinction even within

03:10:21 Israel, yet there's unity. So just because there are distinct races or cultures and stuff like

03:10:26 that with their borders and their lands and their boundaries, doesn't mean that they're separate

03:10:29 from the others and can't intermingle and mix and share and come together. That's not what that

03:10:35 means. All right. Another question from Brie Brie Cruz. This is for you, Antonio. The biracial

03:10:42 panelist will never have a child who's one pure race. So who will his children marry that will 0.99

03:10:46 be acceptable. Yeah, I mean, I think I felt like I laid out the position. I think there's a

03:10:54 consideration of prudence and wisdom and compatibility. And it's not about racial

03:10:59 purity. We're not race essentialists. So I'm not saying if you're not 100% white, then you're not

03:11:03 white. And so, yeah, I would say my biracial, can you say that still, I guess, about a 25% black

03:11:11 Yeah, you can. There's 25% in there, baby. Mariah Carey's black. Your kid's black. 0.91

03:11:17 Right. Yeah. So my biracial children will make the determination along with my help 0.63

03:11:26 on the sort of dimension of wisdom, on the dimension of prudence. Who is the best spouse

03:11:32 for you? How do they relate to you? Et cetera. All right. Super chat from James Strong. They 0.99

03:11:39 said, if interracial marriage is against God's design, quotes, that would be the position that 0.94

03:11:43 we took. Why does mixing ancestries predictably boost genetic diversity and reduce recessive 0.95

03:11:49 disease risk? Does that suggest it's within creation's design? And so what's referred to

03:11:53 here is called in-group, out-group depression. So you can marry too close. That, like Tay-Sachs

03:11:58 disease, which is common in Ashkenazi Jews. You marry close, you're likely going to have it. It's 1.00

03:12:03 fatal. It's terrible to have. We already talked about some of the reasons too far might not be

03:12:08 ideal either the ideal is actually kind of about the tribal level so it's not super far away and

03:12:14 it's not super close either i think genetically some of that is communicating yeah don't marry

03:12:19 your first cousin don't marry your sister also don't go halfway across the world and marry someone

03:12:25 very biologically distinct i do want to give you guys a chance to chime in on that question

03:12:29 so mixing ancestries it boosts genetic diversity reduces recessive disease risk do you think that

03:12:35 suggest that's creationist design. I think that's a great argument. I went pretty deep in the rabbit

03:12:39 hole of the genetic aspect of this in case it were to come up. The interesting part about this is

03:12:44 Andrew Wilson made the argument that the reason why this is thrown out, standard deviation IQ 0.83

03:12:50 lower in sub-Saharan Africa, is because of cousin marriage in Islam and Islam spreading all over

03:12:57 Africa, right? So that is a interbreeding issue of what you're just describing, right?

03:13:02 too close in group yeah in group too close in group marrying your cousin very common in islam

03:13:07 according to andrew wilson and that is why there's a standard deviation iq test lower in

03:13:13 saharan africa when you look at all the other studies of the transracial studies you start

03:13:17 seeing that the disparity when accounting for environment are not as huge as standard deviation

03:13:22 talking about a couple iq points between white white folks black folks asian folks and mixed

03:13:26 race, folks. I think that's a great argument, and I think, yeah, again, if folks want to

03:13:31 intermarry, I think that's awesome. Praise God for that.

03:13:35 All right. The other Paul sent in an Australian $10 super chat. We'll see that it converts to

03:13:39 in U.S. dollars. He said, question for the racial egalitarians. I'm just reading it,

03:13:43 not my words. He said, you assume biblicism, that moral norms only exist but they are clearly laid

03:13:49 out in Scripture. How did Abraham or any pre-Scripture man like Job know homosexuality

03:13:54 was evil um i think that we can uh look at what it said in um in genesis that that god lays this 0.65

03:14:05 principle that a man should leave his father and mother um and cleave to his wife and the two should

03:14:10 become one flesh and i think that that was a principle that has been that was probably passed

03:14:14 down even all the way to abraham so um that that's that would be my take on it i think it's a

03:14:21 it was it was a principle already laid there in the beginning yeah i just went down the rabbit

03:14:25 hole of how did moses write genesis and how did he have this information to write it you know way

03:14:30 later so i would agree with that and i would also add like i think if you're going to conflate

03:14:34 sex distinctions which are clear as day to race distinctions uh i think you're really in some

03:14:42 dicey water because i think he's making a more principle argument of how can we discern things

03:14:46 outside of scripture?

03:14:48 Like that's kind of

03:14:48 what he's getting at

03:14:49 is how would you know

03:14:50 in the absence of scripture

03:14:51 that something's good

03:14:52 or bad for you?

03:14:53 Yeah.

03:14:54 Can you be fruitful

03:14:54 and multiply?

03:14:56 Right?

03:14:56 There's parts that go together

03:14:58 and they create offspring.

03:14:59 I think it's pretty straightforward.

03:15:00 Which was a command

03:15:01 nature tells us.

03:15:02 They fit together.

03:15:02 Yeah.

03:15:03 There's nothing in nature

03:15:03 that says don't do that.

03:15:05 You know what I mean?

03:15:05 That was a command from God.

03:15:08 So I think that that passed down.

03:15:10 All right.

03:15:11 Jake, for you,

03:15:12 send in a $20 super chance.

03:15:13 Got a funny European logo

03:15:15 before it not good don't love it all right he said uh you don't let her you we're not off to a good

03:15:21 start here he said you claim race is real because it's visible measurable and useful in medicine

03:15:25 that's like saying counterfeit money is real currency because you can hold it and detect

03:15:29 features does race counterfeit the true division ethnicity there's a lot going on there i think

03:15:36 he's saying okay sure you can see race but the real division is ethnicity which to some degree

03:15:42 we would agree. But the ethnicity, 0.72

03:15:44 oh, we're all from JFET. Well,

03:15:46 you're Eastern European and you're British.

03:15:48 There's going to be a wide divide between the two that

03:15:50 still should be taken into account as you consider

03:15:52 marriage. Go ahead. Do you have something to say?

03:15:54 Yeah, I think

03:15:56 denying race is a factor. It's silly. 0.95

03:15:58 There is some degree of it, right? 0.86

03:16:00 Whether you call it a social construct

03:16:02 or whatever. But again, I

03:16:04 tend to see this, and forgive me if I'm not

03:16:06 answering the question, but I tend to

03:16:08 see race as just a placeholder

03:16:09 for the broader conversation.

03:16:12 Like, do you think it's more like a rule of thumb, like a heuristic?

03:16:15 It's like you can see sort of visually or phenotypically someone's black, but then it's like. 0.97

03:16:20 Yes, yes. 0.99

03:16:20 So like I could see that you're black. 0.97

03:16:22 Right. 0.98

03:16:22 Right.

03:16:23 But you're in a suit. 0.99

03:16:24 And if you weren't in a suit and you had on, I don't know, you had dreadlocks, you would probably pass as more black. 0.95

03:16:31 It would communicate something. 0.98

03:16:33 It would communicate something.

03:16:34 Yes, yes, yes. 0.88

03:16:35 So again, so that's why I keep going back to culture versus race, because some people just say you're a black man.

03:16:41 Yeah.

03:16:42 i don't know how you would identify if you're mixed race black identify as indian actually

03:16:46 well i mean like like not to open a can of worms but like sean king identifies as a black man

03:16:51 right but white is man alive yeah right so it's like uh you know so yeah go ahead uh so this is

03:16:58 for you guys super chat again from the other paul more australian dollars we'll see what happens

03:17:02 another question did god not intend the beautiful aesthetics of distinct races the red hair of the

03:17:07 kelts the ebony skin of the ugandans is this not a good reason for general discouragement of

03:17:13 intermixing so i think he's taking the same position not saying it's sin but generally

03:17:17 he's asking it for the for you guys this poses an argument worth considering uh no um i wouldn't say

03:17:23 that i mean um when you get let's say for example uh you get certain certain groups that come

03:17:29 together and they have a mixed baby with that would have text textually different hair than

03:17:35 there and it's really beautiful and different and unique um then can i say that okay is this god's

03:17:41 design then because of the beauty and uh the artistry and the uniqueness of this this new type

03:17:48 of texture of hair that's different from uh each each parent like i wouldn't i didn't even wouldn't

03:17:53 even necessarily take that stance so uh no but it does show that god is is is an artist and he is

03:18:01 unique in his design of people, and people are unique, people are different. That has nothing

03:18:07 to do with whether or not they can intermarry. All right. The Technician TV, Ruslan, this is

03:18:15 for you, he asked, Ruslan, do you, I think the word think is supposed to mean there, do you think

03:18:20 Jews and Christians worship the same God? And if so, is it okay for them, I think he's, I guess

03:18:25 Jews and Christians, is it okay for them to prohibit interracial marriage? He's probably 0.95

03:18:28 mostly speaking of jews that have typically only married within jewish ethnic group and so

03:18:33 maintained their identity over time yeah no jews and christians do not worship the same god

03:18:37 uh i think jews need to be converted and they need to be told about jesus and they need to

03:18:42 be evangelized we're specifically speaking of orthodox and rabbinic jews yeah right how mudic 0.90

03:18:48 judaism if we're talking about jews that became christian that's different right so i got friends 0.52

03:18:52 that are jewish that follow jesus and if so is it okay for them to prohibit interracial marriage

03:18:56 yeah i would never advise a christian woman to marry a jewish man if he's not following jesus

03:19:01 i think he's asking about jews themselves have always married within their own group to maintain

03:19:05 their jewish identity so they're kind of two disjointed questions but with the second one

03:19:09 let's take the example you just gave so for the jews that you are friends with ethnic ethnic jews

03:19:14 but they've actually converted to christianity religiously if if they uh said i don't want my 0.90

03:19:20 son or daughter to marry another christian who's not ethnically jewish um like it you know what do

03:19:27 you think sorry they're they're they're jewish but they're now following jesus and their children

03:19:32 are following jesus and their children are following jesus and there's another couple

03:19:35 their children are following jesus but this couple's not ethnically jewish and they say look

03:19:39 we want to preserve um our our jewish or now jewish christian identity uh-huh yeah i think

03:19:45 if they say that's still it's preference i say it's preference yeah yeah just like i got my my

03:19:49 black homies that want to have black kids and wanted to marry a black woman and i'm like cool

03:19:52 man that that is a interesting it's very common in black culture for you to say that but i guess 0.95

03:19:57 i guess uh this is what you're saying is if a person said i just want my children to be white

03:20:01 like me you would have no problem i don't have no problem i think i think i think if someone then

03:20:05 goes out of their way to say like okay like i had a buddy who was like was very particular about the

03:20:11 type of woman he went i'm not even talking about race right and then the more we talked and the

03:20:15 more we examined what you wanted i was like what you want is not who you are you want this petite

03:20:19 skinny girl and there's this other girl that really likes you and she's not your type hey but

03:20:24 she loves jesus she has great moral character you're aligned you're compatible maybe you should

03:20:29 consider dating her right and then they ended up getting married and having an amazing family i

03:20:33 would say that's a delusion in his mindset of his own self-worth he's 30 40 pounds overweight

03:20:37 you know what i mean yeah and so like yeah i challenged him in that and saying yeah you're

03:20:40 you're you're wild in like this whole like i want this type of woman but you're not that type of

03:20:44 man i'm not sure if that connects oh yeah yeah i was just it's just the idea that someone can

03:20:48 actually express just an in-group uh racial in-group preference and not be racist so let

03:20:52 me just say this and if there's an amazing woman that loves jesus and he's saying well she's not

03:20:58 black i would just i would probably i'll maybe say well maybe you want to reevaluate that right

03:21:02 like i was i would i would say be open to it but i wouldn't press him either way if he goes nope

03:21:06 i'm not married i don't want to marry a white woman or whatever i wouldn't i wouldn't it wouldn't

03:21:10 be a big deal for me i'd be like cool what do you think about jews um oh gosh i was really trying 0.94

03:21:15 not to talk about jews ethnically gosh darn it ethnic jews uh who would say not just for their

03:21:20 own children in terms of their preference but they would say that uh ethnically jewish people 0.90

03:21:25 have a moral obligation to marry other jews because they're such a small minority population 0.50

03:21:31 to preserve yeah the jewish race how they practice yeah i would say that's a that's a preference 1.00

03:21:36 No, that's an ought 0.99

03:21:39 Sorry, I missed the moral obligation 1.00

03:21:41 Ethnic Jews 1.00

03:21:43 Who say they have a moral obligation 0.99

03:21:45 To marry other Jews 1.00

03:21:46 And how do I feel about it? 1.00

03:21:49 Yeah, what do you think?

03:21:51 I mean, we're not even talking about kingdom people 1.00

03:21:53 They're not Christians

03:21:54 Yeah, I know, but so do you think that's wrong? 1.00

03:21:58 That's a great question

03:21:59 I am not even

03:22:01 Orienting that conversation

03:22:03 Because they don't follow the same God I follow

03:22:05 does that make sense i'm not trying to weasel my way out of the conference like it's such a it's

03:22:10 such a category error that category i won't even make it about you because i don't know your

03:22:15 position on this i haven't i haven't heard you talk about it but there are a lot of christians

03:22:18 who are you know they're dispensational zionists they're pretty gung-ho about israel maybe their

03:22:24 pastor is one of the thousand pastors that went on the sponsored israel trip you know for three

03:22:29 days and got their talking points and came back you know um yeah they're they're really big on

03:22:33 Israel and even as Christians

03:22:35 and non-ethnically Jewish people 0.77

03:22:37 they still

03:22:38 feel strongly that

03:22:41 Israel should not be diversified 1.00

03:22:43 Israel shouldn't have a bunch of 1.00

03:22:45 immigration and that 1.00

03:22:46 Jewish people should marry within their 0.71

03:22:49 race because we need Jews 1.00

03:22:51 to preserve. These pastors have said this?

03:22:53 There's documentation of this?

03:22:54 Yeah, pastors have

03:22:55 Oh gosh, I'm so sorry.

03:22:58 Have you been to Israel, Joel?

03:23:00 No. Have any of you guys been to Israel?

03:23:02 You guys know the majority of Israelis are Sephardic Jews,

03:23:06 and there's a lot of black Jews and all types of Jews.

03:23:08 Yeah, there's Sephardic, there's Ashkenazi.

03:23:09 Yeah, I'm aware there's some diversity in Israel.

03:23:12 Some diversity.

03:23:13 I mean, it's like 60% Sephardic Jews, and then there's like 20% Arabs.

03:23:17 The Ashkenazi Jews, the very small minority that actually practice all that stuff.

03:23:21 So, yeah, that to me is just weird because when I go to Israel,

03:23:25 I mean, I'm not trying to be this guy. 0.81

03:23:26 When I go to Israel, it looks a lot like America. 0.82

03:23:28 Like, I see black Ethiopian Jews. 0.98

03:23:31 I see Sephardic Jews that live more.

03:23:32 It's very progressive.

03:23:33 It's very diverse.

03:23:34 They're secular.

03:23:35 Yeah, they're secular.

03:23:36 Yeah.

03:23:37 This is a good question to end on.

03:23:38 Thank you to everyone else who put Super Chats in for the sake of time

03:23:41 and also staying on topic.

03:23:42 We weren't able to handle all of them, but we did our best.

03:23:44 Hopefully, we covered the best ones.

03:23:46 This is for both parties, so I think we'll start with ourselves.

03:23:49 Joel, you can take it for yourself as a pastor,

03:23:52 and then we'll hand it to you guys for the final word.

03:23:54 Michael Scogans, $10, said,

03:23:56 For both parties, I know that when you mix two different cultures together, friction can happen.

03:24:00 In light of that, how can the church help young couples navigate that friction?

03:24:04 Great question.

03:24:05 In a marriage. 0.59

03:24:06 I know that when you mix two different cultures together, friction can happen.

03:24:11 In light of that, how can the church help young couples navigate that friction?

03:24:18 So I take this as once the marriage has already been established.

03:24:23 I think so.

03:24:24 Yeah, so in the case of a married couple, husband and wife, they're already married.

03:24:29 They've already entered into that marriage, and they come from two very distinct cultures. 0.97

03:24:34 Then, yeah, like counseling them through that as best you can, rooting it in whatever is inherently sinful.

03:24:42 Sin is always the biggest problem.

03:24:43 It's just not the only problem.

03:24:45 So trying to get down to sin issues and encouraging from the scripture repentance wherever necessary with anything that's actually objectively sinful.

03:24:56 And then with everything else that might be a language barrier or different preferences or different customs or traditions.

03:25:03 And, you know, he celebrates Christmas and she doesn't or whatever.

03:25:08 I think with that, encouraging, you know, patience and they're just they're just going to have an extra set of extra homework than the, you know, the average couple that's more homogenous.

03:25:22 They're going to they might have to study up on language and they might have to study up on this, study up on that.

03:25:28 So they're just they're going to have to work harder. So encouraging diligence, encouraging vigilance and, you know, those kinds of things.

03:25:36 I agree with you

03:25:38 I'm not going to lie to you

03:25:39 with the last thing you said

03:25:41 I'm not going to lie to you

03:25:42 I have to say as the middle of the table

03:25:46 half black half white

03:25:48 I get to decide who wins

03:25:49 what

03:25:51 I think I remember this

03:25:54 Paul Washer sermon a long

03:25:56 time ago and I don't know if you guys

03:25:58 Paul Washer but he talks about

03:26:00 he's talking about marriage

03:26:02 when you get married it's like

03:26:04 it's like, when you become a Christian, 1.00

03:26:06 it's like walking into a tomb

03:26:07 and dying to a part of yourself.

03:26:09 And then when you get married,

03:26:10 it's like walking inside of another tomb

03:26:12 and dying to another part of yourself.

03:26:14 And then when you have kids,

03:26:15 it's like walking into a tomb of a tomb of a tomb

03:26:17 and dying to a part of yourself, right?

03:26:19 And he's talking about like,

03:26:20 hey man, when you get home, the real work begins.

03:26:23 When you get home, that's when you're really on call.

03:26:25 And when I think of that,

03:26:27 I think maybe some of this is maybe expectations, man.

03:26:31 Like marriage can be hard,

03:26:32 but it could also be the most glorious amazing thing and so setting these expectations for young

03:26:37 couples they're like it is hard and there's practical things you got to adjust to personality

03:26:41 things you got to adjust to sometimes it's cultural sometimes it's all sorts of things

03:26:45 ideologies but working towards that and just having healthy expectations that um you can work

03:26:50 through it and the scriptures the main things are the plain things and you work you can work

03:26:54 towards having a great marriage uh and it's but it's going to be hard i think that i think we

03:26:59 need to tell people that like yo marriage is not always going to be easy it's not always to make

03:27:02 you happy. It's to make you holy. It's a sanctifying process. Yeah, duty. Duty is something

03:27:06 that needs to be emphasized. We're going to hit this last question from the McGlone Code from

03:27:10 Rumble. We love our Rumble super chatters. So we'll hit this last one here. Do you agree that

03:27:14 all else being equal, it is a concerning sign when someone cannot find a godly spouse among

03:27:19 their own people? That doesn't sound ideal to me. I agree. That is concerning. Yep. Yep. All right.

03:27:24 Thank you guys for tuning in. We really appreciate it. Again, I just want here at the end to plug

03:27:28 our Patreon. So we did a two hour conversation, just me, Antonio and Wes going into the topic

03:27:34 of interracial marriage. And so if you'd like to see that, that's a Patreon exclusive. We want to

03:27:39 provide, you know, regular, frequent, tangible benefit value to our Patreon supporters who are

03:27:47 supporting us on a monthly basis financially. We really appreciate you guys. So check out

03:27:51 patreon.com forward slash NXR studios, patreon.com forward slash NXR studios. Make sure to subscribe

03:27:57 to our YouTube channel and follow us

03:27:59 on X. My handle is

03:28:01 at Joel Webin, at Joel Webin.

03:28:03 And subscribe on YouTube and rumble.

03:28:05 Click the bell and follow us. And real quick,

03:28:07 we'll let Ruslan and also

03:28:09 Avery plug. Where can people follow

03:28:11 you guys? 0.90

03:28:13 Yeah, Ruslan KD on all

03:28:15 platforms. Ruslan KD on YouTube. And then

03:28:17 again, March 5th, 6th

03:28:19 and 7th, Bless God Summit.

03:28:22 God Logic is going to be debating

03:28:23 Jacob Hansen, LDS

03:28:25 Apologist on the Trinity. We also got Wes Huff, Michael Knowles. We have a phenomenal lineup,

03:28:30 Indie Tribe. It's going to be awesome. So if you're anywhere near Southern California,

03:28:34 come hang out with us and you get more information at blessgodsummit.com.

03:28:37 Yep. And you can find me on GodLogicApologetics on YouTube, GodLogicGL on Instagram and on X,

03:28:47 and it's GodLogic underscore two on TikTok. I go live all the time. If you have a TikTok,

03:28:53 you'll have a good time

03:28:55 getting entertained

03:28:56 throughout the week

03:28:57 so those are the handles

03:28:58 you can

03:28:58 what about SoundCloud

03:28:58 I'm not on SoundCloud

03:29:00 just kidding

03:29:01 he's a rapper 0.99

03:29:01 because he's black 1.00

03:29:02 you know that's a good idea 0.99

03:29:04 I thought about it

03:29:05 I was like

03:29:05 maybe I shouldn't do it

03:29:07 I'm like no

03:29:07 I can do it

03:29:08 I'm the rapper bro

03:29:09 alright what's your SoundCloud

03:29:10 I can hit you with some bars

03:29:11 man so 0.75

03:29:12 but yeah that's where

03:29:13 you can find me

03:29:13 so thank you so much

03:29:14 thank you for the opportunity

03:29:15 this was a dope conversation

03:29:16 man I enjoyed myself

03:29:17 for real

03:29:18 good praise God

03:29:19 alright thank you guys

03:29:20 for tuning in

03:29:20 we appreciate you

03:29:21 we'll see you on Friday

03:29:22 Lord willing

03:29:23 Thank you.

`witch hunt`	Both words, anywhere in the episode.
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`"great replacement" AND episode_date:[NOW-1YEAR TO NOW]`	From the past 12 months.
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The NXR Podcast - January 16, 2026

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬

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Summary

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The NXR Podcast - January 16, 2026

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬ ​

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬