The NXR Podcast - NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬

00:00:00.000 Welcome to NXR Studios. If you're new to this channel, our schedule is as follows. We broadcast

00:00:04.600 both on X and Rumble and YouTube live on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Three broadcasts a week,

00:00:12.980 Monday, Wednesday, Friday, all at 12 p.m. Eastern time. Now, we're making an exception. Today is

00:00:18.480 Thursday. We're doing an extra broadcast, an extra live stream, because there has been a week-long

00:00:23.180 controversy back and forth, back and forth between many Christians on social media over the topic of

00:00:28.400 interracial marriage. And so we are going to have today an informal debate on that topic. It's going

00:00:34.900 to be myself and my two co-hosts, Wesley and Antonio, on one side of the aisle. And then we

00:00:41.780 will be debating against Ruslan and Avery on the other side of the aisle. My side, me, Wesley and

00:00:48.860 Antonio, are going to be affirming the prompt or the thesis, which is from my tweet that kicked

00:00:54.340 off this whole controversy about a week ago, we are going to be affirming this thesis for the

00:01:00.180 debate, and Avery and Ruslan will be the denying side of the table. They will be denying this

00:01:06.940 thesis. This is the thesis. Let me go ahead and read it right now. Interracial marriage,

00:01:11.680 while biblically permissible, no one's saying that it's a sin, not inherently. Interracial marriage,

00:01:17.380 while biblically permissible, generally slash ordinarily goes against God's normative design 0.73

00:01:25.060 for humanity, nations, and cultures. I'll read it again. This is the formal thesis for today's

00:01:31.700 debate. I am in the affirmative. Wes and Antonio affirming with me. Ruslan and Avery denying.

00:01:39.480 Here's the statement. Interracial marriage, while biblically permissible, generally or ordinarily

00:01:46.540 goes against God's normative design for humanity, nations, and cultures. Now, I say that this is an 1.00

00:01:54.820 informal debate. Let me give you the structure. It's formal in the sense that we're all going to

00:01:58.920 have opening-timed statements. So we're going to kick off in our first segment with the opening

00:02:04.160 statements. I'm going to go first with a 10-minute opening statement, then Ruslan, one of my

00:02:08.520 opponents, he will read a 10-minute opening statement. Then one of the guys on my side,

00:02:13.860 my team, Antonio, is going to do a five minute opening statement. Then Avery on Ruslan's side

00:02:19.880 of the aisle, he's going to give a 10 minute opening statement. And then we'll finish off

00:02:23.880 with Wes, who again is affirming on my side, a five minute statement. So Wes and Antonio,

00:02:29.080 both on my side, affirming the thesis, they each get five minutes. And then Avery and Ruslan and

00:02:34.460 myself, we get 10 minutes so that both sides get a total of 20 minutes, which means it's going to

00:02:39.620 be 40 minutes of opening statements. That's going to be the first segment of today's show. Then

00:02:44.920 we'll go to a quick commercial break and then come back. And the informal portion of this debate

00:02:49.380 will be the cross-examination. We're going to do that in a discussion format rather than timed

00:02:54.360 cross-examination. So that'll be anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half. The second segment,

00:03:00.100 informal cross-examination, lively discussion. Then we'll go to a final commercial break and

00:03:05.000 we will come back for the third and final segment, which will be super chats. If you have a question

00:03:10.280 or a comment, send it in as a super chat and start sending them in now, because this is going to be

00:03:15.740 in order as we receive them. First come, first serve. If you have a comment or a question and

00:03:20.680 it's not a super chat, then it's not going to get read on the air because we're going to have a lot

00:03:25.680 of comments and a lot of questions for this topic. And so we want to prioritize the people who are

00:03:30.540 being generous and supporting this channel. We appreciate you very much. And so the last thing

00:03:35.720 with super chats, it's important. You got to stay on topic. If you are not staying on topic, even if

00:03:40.640 it's a super chat, if it's a question or comment, that's not on topic, we'll have to address it

00:03:44.720 another time because we only have so much time. We're going to have to end the stream. It's going

00:03:48.400 to be a long one, but eventually we have to end the stream because Avery and Ruslan are flying

00:03:52.680 back today. It's a quick turnaround. They came out this morning. They're going back this evening.

00:03:57.160 And so if you have a Super Chat, you want it to get read, it needs to be on topic, and you need to get it in sooner rather than later because we're going to go in order that we receive the Super Chats.

00:04:07.680 Last thing that I want to say is a big thank you for our Patreon supporters.

00:04:11.900 These are guys who are financially, generously supporting us, NXR Studios, on a monthly basis, and we constantly are thinking of ways to provide special, tangible, substance, value for you.

00:04:25.560 And so we spent over two hours, myself, Wes, and Antonio, recording a two-hour episode exclusively only for our Patreon supporters on this topic of interracial marriage,

00:04:37.660 giving the science, the biology, the scripture, the theology, giving some of the cultural aspects, breaking down what is ethnicity, what is race, is race a biblical term, where do you root that in the scripture, what's the difference between race and ethnicity.

00:04:52.260 If you want to watch that episode, then join us on Patreon.

00:04:55.960 You can go to patreon.com forward slash nxrstudios, patreon.com forward slash nxrstudios.

00:05:03.520 All right, here's a quick couple of announcements, then we'll get to our first segment with the

00:05:07.580 opening statements.

00:05:09.020 Hey guys, in case you haven't heard, right now we have a 10-part series with one of the

00:05:13.100 most controversial and significant voices in American politics.

00:05:17.520 that is none other than Nicholas J. Fuentes, the man, the myth, the legend. And you did hear me

00:05:23.600 correctly. It's not a singular interview. This is a 10-part series, 10 episodes, each approximately

00:05:29.280 an hour in length. And we are dripping out this series to the public, but you have to wait. It's

00:05:36.680 coming out one episode per week on Wednesdays at 12 p.m. Eastern time. However, if you want to get

00:05:43.040 all 10 episodes today ad-free early access they are exclusively available on patreon.com and as

00:05:51.360 a special limited time offer you can also get two hardcover copies signed copies of our brand new

00:05:58.220 book the hyphenated heresy judeo-christianity go over to patreon.com forward slash nxr studios

00:06:06.520 today to take advantage of these offers. In 1979, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin

00:06:13.900 gifted Jerry Falwell a luxurious Learjet 25, worth millions of dollars. Officially,

00:06:20.040 it was a token of gratitude for his support. But the truth, it was a transaction. Falwell was now

00:06:26.860 Israel's valuable ally, flying high as a lobbyist in the skies. And from that moment on, Falwell's

00:06:33.800 allegiance soared. His moral majority made backing Israel a core platform, preaching American

00:06:39.780 prosperity hinged upon blessing the Jewish state, or else face God's wrath. Genesis 12.3 was twisted

00:06:48.640 into foreign policy. Now explore the full account in the hyphenated heresy, Judeo-Christianity.

00:06:55.340 Learn how the faith was hijacked and rediscover Christianity on its own historic terms. Pick up

00:07:02.300 your copy today at amazon.com radical christian nationalist pastor joel webin joel webin

00:07:17.640 i'm gonna talk about joel webin joel webin is an accident

00:07:32.300 all right we are here this is going to be a live informal debate you already saw the cold open so i

00:07:48.160 won't you know espouse it all again but we're going to be formal in the sense that we actually

00:07:52.020 do opening statements and those will be timed we'll take turns and uh leave the the raucous

00:07:57.000 out of it we'll you know i'll be on our best behaviors let the other guy speak the discussion

00:08:01.220 portion that's kind of the informal portion of the it will be cross-examination but it's going

00:08:05.740 to be in a discussion format instead of you know a time do you say this then you say that going back

00:08:10.560 and forth so we'll do our best not to interrupt each other but you know how it is like there might

00:08:14.860 be a moment where it's like dude wait wait let me finish what i'm saying or you know and that's

00:08:19.020 and that's allowed in the discussion portion not during the opening statements and then as we've

00:08:22.800 already said we'll take super chats at the end so we don't want to waste time because we got 40

00:08:26.260 minutes of opening statements we'd like to have at least an hour i'm thinking of discussion and

00:08:30.560 then probably an hour on Super Chat. So we're going to be here for a little while. We've got

00:08:34.540 a couple commercial breaks. So we built in some bathroom access into this live stream,

00:08:41.000 because it's going to be a while. But let's start by doing this. Let's just introduce ourselves.

00:08:45.460 And we've got people from all over. We've got guys from your channels, guys from our channels.

00:08:50.300 So I don't want to assume that everybody knows who everybody is. So you are the guest. So let's

00:08:54.480 start over on this side of the table. Hi, I'm Ruslan. Hi, Ruslan. What do you do? Real quick.

00:08:59.540 so that's your name what what do you do what's your vocation what like uh youtube podcaster

00:09:05.620 uh former artist slash current artist and uh yeah author best-selling author now yeah

00:09:11.700 really what's the book godly ambition godly ambition that's good man dude it's been like

00:09:19.060 20 years of gospely centered centered gospel guys ragging on ambition yes yeah so good for you

00:09:25.100 That's awesome.

00:09:25.560 That's good.

00:09:25.960 How do you feel about interracial marriage?

00:09:27.460 I love it. 0.99

00:09:29.460 Your wife is black, right? 1.00

00:09:30.740 My wife is black. 1.00

00:09:31.100 Okay. 0.99

00:09:31.500 All right.

00:09:32.520 What's going on, Avery?

00:09:33.920 I'm Avery from GodLogicApologetics. 0.88

00:09:36.040 I'm a Christian who does apologetics against Islam, Hebrew Israelism, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, things of that nature.

00:09:45.120 I like to debate the Trinity, the deity of Christ, biblical reliability, and all kinds of stuff.

00:09:50.460 So you can find me on YouTube at GodLogicApologetics.

00:09:55.380 You can find me on Instagram, GodLogicGL.

00:09:57.240 Same thing with Twitter and TikTok.

00:10:00.200 I stream every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

00:10:02.420 So it's like a consistent stream schedule.

00:10:04.700 So you want to catch us live, see the fun, you can come on in and see what we do.

00:10:11.060 What time?

00:10:11.460 See what we do live.

00:10:12.100 Usually around 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

00:10:17.020 That's perfect.

00:10:17.520 So we're Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, so you can watch us first.

00:10:20.180 at 12 p.m. Eastern time,

00:10:22.080 and then you can go watch some popcorn.

00:10:23.600 That's right, that's right.

00:10:24.860 Yep, I'm Antonio Griffith.

00:10:26.060 I'm a contributor here at NXR.

00:10:28.040 I'm a father, three children, a churchman,

00:10:31.300 and you can see me Monday, Friday, NXR Live

00:10:34.760 at 12 Eastern.

00:10:36.640 12 p.m. Eastern, yep.

00:10:38.260 Perfect.

00:10:38.880 Yep, and I also help co-host as well

00:10:40.400 here at NXR Studios,

00:10:41.720 also Right Response Ministries,

00:10:43.220 our theological side,

00:10:44.720 husband, father to two children,

00:10:46.200 and a churchman as well.

00:10:47.160 What's your name?

00:10:48.040 Wesley Todd.

00:10:48.660 Wesley Todd.

00:10:49.520 All right.

00:10:49.760 And I'm Joel Webin. My primary vocation is I have the privilege of being a local pastor.

00:10:55.180 So I pastor a church in Georgetown, Texas. We're about hour north or so of Austin, Texas.

00:11:00.900 So close enough to have, you know, guys commute for work, things like that.

00:11:05.080 Ministry opportunity, but far enough away to hopefully have our police not be defunded.

00:11:09.620 So we're right there in the sweet spot. And then I am a husband to one and a father of six, one in glory.

00:11:17.620 So five children with us that we adore, and then I am CEO of NXR Studios, and then also

00:11:25.620 get to be president with Right Response Ministries.

00:11:28.700 And that's it.

00:11:29.500 Nice.

00:11:29.940 All right.

00:11:30.340 Anything you guys want to cover before we go into opening statements?

00:11:33.520 Are we ready?

00:11:34.540 Oh, I thought we were going to play some more commercials.

00:11:36.340 Yes.

00:11:36.680 Oh, no, that's it.

00:11:38.200 Oh, okay.

00:11:38.780 Do you need...

00:11:40.620 Okay, so let's...

00:11:42.820 Sorry, hold on real quick.

00:11:43.640 No, it's okay.

00:11:44.060 I do want to let GodLogic will be at the Blessed God Summit.

00:11:46.720 That's right.

00:11:47.020 debating jacob hansen uh on the trinity jacob hansen's a leading lds apologist so plug for that

00:11:53.160 yes okay yeah um do you so i don't want you to miss any of the opening statements did you need

00:11:57.720 to do something real quick yes okay yes why don't you go do something it's all right it's all right

00:12:03.340 and uh talk to us a little bit about the god summit go ahead and take this opportunity to

00:12:07.600 plug yeah sure so um man so this is actually kind of the second year in a row that he's doing like

00:12:12.740 this uh this this god summit um he's bringing in a bunch of everyone from all type of backgrounds

00:12:20.080 and works within the christian like uh sphere you know internet sphere um and and bringing them on

00:12:27.160 to do talks bringing them on to uh give discussions tips um and inspiration with all like you got

00:12:33.760 fitness you got apologetics you got um um just you know christian living you know just it's really

00:12:40.960 good so um yeah so i'll be debating jacob hansen um who is an lds apologist we're going to be

00:12:48.800 debating on whether or not the god of the bible is a trinity and so that's going to be fun that's

00:12:53.620 going to be a good time that's cool yeah uh that was impressive i feel i feel like i feel like you

00:13:00.120 should be in the military like i feel safer knowing that this guy all right now that was

00:13:05.100 impressive that was fast all right here we go uh opening statements so it'd be me then ruslan

00:13:09.180 then Antonio then Avery and then Wes all right here we go let's put 10 minutes on the clock

00:13:15.320 and we're gonna keep to the time ready I'm gonna wait till it counts there we go public discussion

00:13:23.360 of interracial marriage routinely collapses multiple moral and theological categories

00:13:28.440 into a single accusation to say one is against interracial marriage is treated as equivalent

00:13:35.380 to declaring it inherently sinful, perpetually immoral, criminally punishable, or worthy of

00:13:42.220 social expulsion. This is a category error. Christian theology has always distinguished

00:13:47.840 between normative design and absolute prohibition, between what God ordinarily orders and what he

00:13:55.320 may nevertheless permit, bless, or redeem under providence. My statement argues that interracial

00:14:02.460 marriage is not God's normative design for humanity, nations, and cultures, while rejecting

00:14:09.460 the claim that it is inherently sinful in all cases, or constitutes an ongoing state of sin,

00:14:16.640 or should be criminalized by the civil magistrate. The argument is theological and prudential,

00:14:22.480 not punitive. Scripture routinely affirms realities that are not ideal, while still

00:14:28.200 permitting them under God's providence. Polygamy, divorce, and even slavery are regulated in

00:14:34.700 Scripture without being presented as creational ideals. Permission is not endorsement. Regulation

00:14:42.140 is not normativity. To say that something is not normative is to say that it is not the pattern

00:14:49.200 God established at creation or the ordinary arrangement He blesses for long-term stability.

00:14:55.280 It is not to say that God cannot work good through exceptions, nor that individuals involved

00:15:01.460 are somehow outside of grace. The question, therefore, is not whether interracial marriage

00:15:08.020 can occur without immediate divine judgment, but whether it reflects God's ordinary ordering of

00:15:14.180 human life as revealed in creation, providence, and history. Any Christian account must begin

00:15:21.460 with creation. Scripture affirms monogenesis. All humanity descends from Adam and shares equal 0.77

00:15:28.560 dignity before God. This unity of origin, however, is not a mandate for historical sameness. From

00:15:36.180 Genesis onwards, Scripture moves immediately from unity to descent, lineage, and inheritance.

00:15:42.540 Genesis 10, the table of nations, presents humanity divided into families, clans, languages,

00:15:48.740 lands, and nations. These divisions are not accidents nor merely punishments for sin.

00:15:55.300 They are the means by which God orders humanity in history. Babel does not create distinct 0.70

00:16:00.800 peoples as different species. It restrains an artificial coercive unity that would have erased 0.99

00:16:08.200 organic development. Throughout scripture, God deals with humanity not only as individuals but

00:16:14.020 as peoples. He sets their boundaries, Deuteronomy 32, verse 8, determines their dwelling places,

00:16:20.080 Acts 17, verse 26, judges them corporately, Amos chapter 1 and 2, and redeems them without erasing

00:16:27.160 their identity, Revelation chapter 7, verse 9. The biblical vision is unity without homogenization.

00:16:35.560 This framework undercuts the modern claim that peoplehood is either illusionary or morally

00:16:41.380 suspect. Scripture treats descent, kinship, and inheritance as real meaningful features

00:16:47.940 of the created order. For most of Christian history, race functioned as a descriptive term

00:16:54.040 for peoplehood, extended kinship embodied in history through ancestry, marriage, language,

00:17:00.340 custom, religion, and land. It was not a claim about biological hierarchy or immutable genetic

00:17:06.420 essence. The biblical problem is not that humanity has distinct peoples, but rather that peoples

00:17:12.820 rebel, forget God, and oppress one another. When race is understood biblically and as extended

00:17:19.660 kinship rather than superficial skin tone taxonomy, the theological relevance of marriage

00:17:25.560 becomes clearer. Marriage is not merely a private romantic arrangement. It is the primary mechanism

00:17:31.400 by which peoples perpetuate themselves across generations.

00:17:35.320 Marriage in Scripture is oriented towards posterity, inheritance, and continuity.

00:17:40.460 From Genesis chapter 2 onward, marriage joins man and woman,

00:17:44.320 not only emotionally but genealogically.

00:17:47.360 Be fruitful and multiply is a command tied to lineage and dominion.

00:17:51.620 Because marriage produces children, 0.95

00:17:53.440 it necessarily participates in the preservation or dissolution of peoples. 0.95

00:17:58.820 This is morally neutral in the micro sense.

00:18:02.320 No child is less human or less image-bearing, but it is not neutral in the macro sense.

00:18:09.040 Over time, patterns of marriage determine whether a people continues, assimilates, or disappears.

00:18:15.160 Across scripture and history, people overwhelmingly marry within their own extended kinship groups.

00:18:21.340 This is not the product of hatred, but of proximity, shared language, shared norms, and shared inheritance.

00:18:27.100 God ordinarily works through families that become clans, clans that become peoples,

00:18:32.340 and peoples that persist through homogenous marriages. 0.99

00:18:36.020 Interracial marriage, by definition, disrupts that continuity.

00:18:40.200 Again, disruption is not always sinful.

00:18:42.980 Scripture allows for exceptions, conversions, adoptions, and incorporations,

00:18:47.820 but exceptions do not define the rule.

00:18:51.100 To say that interracial marriage is not normative

00:18:53.960 is to say that God's ordinary means of preserving peoples is intra-group marriage. That is true 1.00

00:19:00.820 empirically, historically, and biblically. A further distinction must be made between

00:19:06.160 permissibility and engineering. Something may be morally permissible in isolation while still

00:19:12.560 being promoted systematically for destructive ends. In the modern West, interracial marriage, 0.98

00:19:17.720 particularly for white Europeans, has been relentlessly promoted through media,

00:19:22.120 advertising, and institutional messaging. The pattern is not organic representation of demographic

00:19:28.780 reality. It is asymmetrical and targeted. White heterosexual couples, the only arrangement that

00:19:35.520 produces white children, are conspicuously minimized. Against the backdrop of abortion

00:19:41.580 access, mass immigration, and the normalization of gay marriage, the promotion of interracial

00:19:47.440 marriage functions not merely as representation, but as demographic strategy. One need not believe 0.95

00:19:54.200 in conspiracies to observe the incentives, patterns, and outcomes. In this context, it is reasonable to

00:20:00.840 say that interracial marriage, while morally permissible in individual cases, is being used 0.74

00:20:06.360 instrumentally at the macro level to accelerate the dissolution of a particular people. To deny

00:20:13.580 this is not charity. It is willful blindness. It is critical to restate what my position does not

00:20:19.480 claim. First, it does not claim that interracial marriage is inherently sinful in every instance.

00:20:24.580 Scripture does not provide warrant for such absolutism. Second, it does not claim that

00:20:30.100 entering an interracial marriage places individuals in a perpetual state of sin.

00:20:34.300 Marriage creates real obligations. Once formed, it is to be honored, not undone. Third, it does 1.00

00:20:40.380 not claim that interracial marriage should be criminalized or punished by the civil magistrate.

00:20:45.480 The distance between moral norm and civil sanction is vast, and Scripture recognizes this. Fourth,

00:20:52.880 it does not claim that Christians who disagree are heretics. There is no ecumenical counsel,

00:20:58.440 confessional standard, or universal patristic witness that condemns the opposing view as

00:21:03.700 outside the faith. Disagreement here is real, but not church dividing. The reflexive charge

00:21:10.080 that my position is racist depends on collapsing biblical peoplehood into modern racial ideology.

00:21:17.720 Once that collapse is rejected, the accusation loses its force. Affirming that God ordinarily

00:21:23.300 orders humanity into distinct peoples is not hatred. Acknowledging that marriage sustains

00:21:28.360 those peoples is not malice. Arguing that normativity matters is not violence. What is

00:21:34.680 dishonest, is pretending that every preference is morally equivalent, every pattern accidental,

00:21:41.720 and every outcome inexplicable. Scripture does not treat history that way, and neither should

00:21:47.980 Christians. This framework undercuts the modern claim that peoplehood is either illusionary or

00:21:54.540 morally suspect. Scripture treats... Whoops, sorry, almost done here. A theology that cannot account

00:22:02.320 for peoplehood will eventually spiritualize away everything concrete, borders, inheritance,

00:22:07.440 authority, and even accountability. The result is not unity, but fragmentation and confusion.

00:22:13.900 Interracial marriage understood rightly fits within this framework. It is an exception God 1.00

00:22:18.740 may bless, but not the pattern that he ordinarily establishes. Recognizing that distinction is not

00:22:24.140 cruelty, but fidelity to the created order. To assert that interracial marriage is not God's

00:22:29.240 normative design is to affirm creation, history, and prudence without denying grace, dignity,

00:22:34.780 or redemption. It is to distinguish norm from exception and permission from promotion. This

00:22:41.160 position neither condemns individuals nor criminalizes relationships. It simply insists

00:22:45.980 that God's ordering of humanity into real peoples is meaningful, that marriage perpetuates those

00:22:51.600 peoples, and that modern efforts to erase this reality are neither biblical nor benign. Christ

00:22:57.260 is king over nations as nations and faithfulness requires speaking plainly about what he has made

00:23:03.840 even when doing so is unpopular okay that's my opening statement uh russon all right joel thank

00:23:11.000 you so much for having me we had you at my space and i'm glad to be back with your space so yeah

00:23:15.300 um initially this was supposed to be a three versus one so i'm glad i was able to bring

00:23:20.560 god logic now it's a three versus two but then i discovered antonio is half half black half white

00:23:27.020 it's two and a half versus two and a half as i told you privately it is very impressive you

00:23:32.220 got a mixed race brother to argue against interracial marriage yeah well impressive or

00:23:37.720 or we'll see we're just right so i'm listen i'm here um not because i necessarily uh see you guys

00:23:46.280 as my adversary though i think some of the positions are can be adversarial to scripture

00:23:51.200 which i think hopefully we get to clarify those things uh and get to the bottom of those things

00:23:55.800 um and ultimately like i i care about you joel you came by we had a great time we hung out we

00:24:01.180 went to get sushi together yeah uh discovered some things about you uh that i liked and it's

00:24:05.380 some other things that we disagreed on a little bit but so i care about you broader speaking i

00:24:10.000 care about the audience i care about the conversation i care about where the country's

00:24:13.520 going so um this is about what we tell christians god disapproves of right um i wouldn't be here if

00:24:21.400 this was just a disagreement over preferences, I'm here because when we say God's design,

00:24:26.820 we are talking about moral authority. So to be clear, we're talking about pro-scripture,

00:24:30.820 pro-church, and anti-careless doctrine. I think when we examine the scriptures,

00:24:36.880 we see a pretty strong record of inter-ethnic marriages without any condemnation. We see Moses

00:24:44.780 and his wife, which in Numbers 12, we see God then rebuke Miriam, not Moses. We see Ruth and Boaz, 0.57

00:24:52.320 we see Rahab, and these are not fringe stories. They're redemptive history moments, and some of

00:24:58.700 these people make it into Jesus's very own lineage, okay? So if these were the exception

00:25:05.120 to the rule, it would be reasonable to see that laid out clearly in Scripture. We don't see any

00:25:11.800 such argument. And so therefore, the burden of proof is on you guys. The burden of proof is to

00:25:17.560 show how there's a condemnation of this, or denial of this, or this is the exception to the rule.

00:25:23.180 It is not on us to provide the permission of it. If we look at the New Testament, we see multiple

00:25:29.040 epistles written to mixed ethnic churches. We see Corinth, we see Ephesus, Galatia,

00:25:36.200 Colossia. These churches were ethnically and culturally mixed. We even see Paul writing to

00:25:42.880 Timothy, who was culturally and ethnically mixed. And what we see in Scripture, clear as day,

00:25:47.700 a clear rebuke of sexual immorality. We see a clear rebuke of idolatry. We see a clear rebuke

00:25:54.100 of partiality. And of course, a clear rebuke of false gospels. But we never, ever, not once,

00:26:01.520 do we see any rebuke of inner ethnic marriage, not one, okay?

00:26:05.700 So if it is generally against God's design,

00:26:09.400 the silence of scripture and the apostles is inexplicable.

00:26:13.440 It absolutely makes no sense.

00:26:16.120 And we see this evident in Ephesians 2, verse 14 through 16, 0.75

00:26:20.960 as Paul is oddly writing a mixed ethnic church.

00:26:24.320 He says in verse 14, and this is a beautiful passage

00:26:28.320 right after talking about how we're saved by grace through faith

00:26:30.800 in this, to God's good work, we are his handiwork.

00:26:34.840 And then in verse 14, Paul says,

00:26:37.000 for he himself is our peace

00:26:40.420 who has made the two groups one

00:26:43.500 and has destroyed the barrier,

00:26:46.560 the dividing wall of hostility

00:26:48.120 by setting aside in his flesh the law

00:26:51.440 with its commands and regulations.

00:26:53.000 His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity,

00:26:58.300 one new humanity out of the two.

00:27:00.300 thus making peace and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross by which

00:27:07.060 he put to death their hostility he came and preached peace to you who were far away and

00:27:11.420 peace to those who were near so we see this very clear uh description that uh mixed ethnic church

00:27:18.740 is being made into one new humanity and again we see no prohibitions we we don't even see any

00:27:24.640 slight pushback on this in any New Testament epistles at all. And he's writing to an audience

00:27:31.700 that this would clearly matter to. So I think this is huge to break down and just get to the basics

00:27:38.600 that God is not returning for a mono-ethnic bride, which I know you guys believe, but he is in real

00:27:45.060 time right now redeeming a multi-ethnic people. This matters because design points forward,

00:27:52.360 not backward and that leads me to my next point which is i think we would all agree here that god

00:27:57.780 is a god of order uh that god does not contradict himself that theology requires uh the theology

00:28:04.160 that that theology that requires semantic gymnastic is sus uh god is not a god of

00:28:10.740 confusion as we see in first corinthians 14 13 the logos theme god is rational

00:28:15.300 communitive, and consistent, which leads me to this entire premise, oddly enough,

00:28:22.480 completely breaking the very second rule of logic. A moral claim must be morally permissible

00:28:29.620 or morally impermissible, and the second rule of logic is the law of the excluded middle. There is

00:28:36.760 no third moral category called generally against God's design but not sinful. The entire premise

00:28:43.380 of this. Once you say God's against this design, you've crossed from preference into moral

00:28:48.260 territory. The entire premise becomes incoherent. So if it's not sinful, it cannot be morally

00:28:54.940 disproved by God. At most, at most, it's preference or situational, not normative.

00:29:02.420 This claim, this entire claim debate, interracial marriage, while biblically permissible, generally

00:29:06.960 orderly goes against God's design, is incoherent. And so I find all this telling and interesting,

00:29:12.500 And in a broader context, like I'm more interested in your own evolution, Joel, because I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you as much as you seem to be disagreeing with you.

00:29:27.520 And so I got a couple of clips I'd love to play of you from 2022, where it sure does sound like you are co-signing everything I'm co-signing.

00:29:37.260 because you don't bring people home right like it's just i hear you racism my point is

00:29:45.020 if race is a big deal racism is the necessary wall of defense to preserve the big deal of race

00:29:53.420 you can't continue to emphasize race multiple generations from now without dividing walls

00:29:59.480 of hostility to protect the purity of of the race and i feel like even with israel ethnic israel

00:30:06.400 so we see we see if race is a big deal quote if race is a big deal i don't see racism not being

00:30:14.340 the logical conclusion here's more on interracial marriage no for a fact if i could sit them down

00:30:19.180 strap them to a chair give them some truth serum and hear what they really thought i don't think

00:30:23.840 that they're they would be a fan of inter interracial marriage uh because it's all about

00:30:29.480 you know it's all about your identity coming from your ethnicity and what you don't want to you don't

00:30:35.360 want to water that down you don't want to lose that you don't want to mix that you know and so

00:30:38.620 so joe this is you railing against hebrew israelites and i got one more clip

00:30:44.240 it's my favorite one articulate or not the natural thought process is that that skin

00:30:50.100 that blood needs to be preserved and and and so you have to turn inward rather than outwards

00:30:56.820 and embracing people from every tribe tongue and nation and you know i've got three girls and if

00:31:01.400 one of them, you know, bring some Hispanic guy home one day when she's older and the guy loves

00:31:05.680 the Lord, then I want to say, praise God, marry my daughter, you know, or black guy, praise God, 0.85

00:31:09.880 marry my daughter. But I feel like if race is such a, you can't say that. 0.93

00:31:16.440 If race is such a big deal, you can't say that. So I don't know. I think at best, Joel,

00:31:23.020 you've clearly flip-flopped on his position really bad. At worst, this is a part of a bigger play

00:31:29.720 for partnerships with other Christian nationalists, but if race is a big deal, racism is a necessary

00:31:35.780 wall of defense to preserve the big deal. Now, you guys have said race is in everything,

00:31:39.440 but it's not nothing. So I'm just more curious on how you, just a couple years ago, went from that

00:31:45.300 to where you are today. And really, my frustration is in you saying, I'm against interracial marriage.

00:31:51.360 You can say I have preferences. I wouldn't even be mad if you said, hey, I want my grandkids to

00:31:54.900 look like me. I want my kids to marry folks. But when you go out and say, I am against something

00:32:00.100 as a pastor, I think I have some issues with that because I just don't see it in scripture.

00:32:04.940 And so in this conversation, we're going to have some fun today. Again, I think God logic is going

00:32:09.700 to have some interesting points, but I want to make sure that the goalpost is not moved and that

00:32:14.380 we're not going back and forth over different prompts. We have a very clear prompt that you

00:32:18.500 guys have to prove. I'm sure we're going to have some conflation of race and ethnicity and culture

00:32:24.260 and faith. Joe is probably going to call our perspective wooden, because we're going to keep 0.99

00:32:28.660 taking you guys right back to Scripture. You're probably going to call us autistic and retarded. 0.98

00:32:32.660 That's fine. For demanding that we make a case from logic and Scripture. And I'm guessing there 0.98

00:32:38.380 will be, oh, I would love to hear your fifth commandment argument to honor your mother and

00:32:42.320 father. That's going to be interesting if you bring that one up. There'll be appeals to emotion,

00:32:46.280 social anxiety, gish galloping, filibustering. But what won't happen is they will not be able 1.00

00:32:52.600 to prove this with scripture even if i sat here and i granted every race realist claim and every 0.60

00:33:00.560 statistic every sociological concern every fear every uh they're trying to take out the white

00:33:07.200 men and take our jobs because the immigrants are coming even if i did all of that none of it would

00:33:12.900 overwrite which scripture clearly permits so that's it that's my time all right we will do 1.00

00:33:20.400 our best to respond in the discussion portion. So I'm going to hold off. It's your turn. Wait,

00:33:26.220 no, it's your turn. Yep, Antonio, it's now. Great. Well, as I jump in, I think it will be

00:33:31.940 helpful to deal with race. So we'll start there. And I want to just be clear, when we talk about 1.00

00:33:36.440 race, we don't mean to import caricatures or any moral hierarchies, nor do we even mean to refer

00:33:41.660 to any discrete biological boundaries. In my view, race refers to a large, historically stable

00:33:48.240 gene-sharing population that has developed under distinct geographic and ecological conditions,

00:33:54.260 and therefore they exhibit, these different peoples, pattern differences in genetic variations

00:33:58.980 and phenotypical traits. This is one of the reasons, for example, we can refer to white

00:34:03.360 or black or Asian people and not have any linguistic utility, because we all know that 1.00

00:34:08.080 this is true. In terms of a biblical anthropology, my position is pretty simple, that this human 1.00

00:34:13.360 variation is not random. It was actually a consequence of the dominion mandate given by

00:34:18.100 God to man at creation that they would be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth in Genesis 1,

00:34:24.140 verse 28. As a consequence of filling the earth, by God's design, these people, exposed to different

00:34:29.960 environments and diets and patterns of living, developed distinct and varied physical and

00:34:34.980 biological attributes. And these variations, which when classified broadly can be described as what

00:34:40.700 we call colloquially race, and they cluster primarily at the continental scale. For this

00:34:46.520 reason, we can use the word European and white interchangeably. These clusters are detectable 0.99

00:34:52.120 and predictive, and they're obviously not absolutes. I think race is better understood

00:34:56.420 statistically as a fuzzy set of data with real structure, much like dialect regions or ecosystems.

00:35:03.140 You can blur the borders, but the underlying realities remain. For example, you might ask

00:35:08.220 an ecologist. Where does the Amazon rainforest end? The borders are ecological gradients and thus

00:35:13.980 quasi-arbitrary, but the lack of natural borders does not erase the existence of the rainforest

00:35:19.340 altogether. In this way, you can understand the way in which race is a linguistic, or as you might

00:35:24.740 say, a social construct that refers to a real non-pattern, non-random pattern, I should say,

00:35:31.560 of human biology. And to deny this is to insist that reality conform to a modern liberal consensus.

00:35:38.220 and its flattening of nature and its biological variations by way of race.

00:35:42.860 And to quickly explicate, going back to the prompt, what is meant by God's normative design,

00:35:48.060 this refers to the purposes and patterns God intentionally built into creation

00:35:52.720 that define how things ought to function, not merely how they function in the fallen world.

00:36:00.460 Normative refers to a divinely established standard discerned through creation's telos,

00:36:05.680 that is its ends, but also its stable and recurring patterns, and scripture's authoritative

00:36:10.840 interpretation of both. Deviations from these patterns do not redefine the norm, just as disease

00:36:17.640 does not redefine health. And so given the structured human variation, we can properly

00:36:22.840 assess on theological grounds the way in which distinct human populations or races correspond

00:36:27.960 with one another, and more specifically than that, how these distinct groups correspond with one

00:36:33.060 another within the context of marriage. So what is the purpose of marriage and what kind of unity

00:36:38.060 does God intend to establish? This is where scripture and specifically case law is helpful.

00:36:43.140 In Deuteronomy chapter 22 verse 10, Israel was commanded not to plow with an ox and a donkey

00:36:48.380 yoke together. And scripture itself teaches us how to read such laws. They are case laws,

00:36:53.680 specific applications of broader moral principles. The unequal yoke is not merely about animals. It's

00:37:00.060 about mismatched types bound together in a task that requires unity, both of spirit, that is faith,

00:37:06.220 and nature, that is in their physical essence. This principle of unity is explicitly applied

00:37:11.340 in scripture to faith, but it does not originate there. Religion, faith, is simply the highest and

00:37:17.060 most explicit expression of it. Man is created in the image of God. Woman is created as his helpmeet,

00:37:23.820 not an assistant, but a mirror, corresponding reflection formed from him and for him. As

00:37:30.300 Genesis and Paul both affirm, she is of the man and for the man, sharing in his calling,

00:37:35.540 his culture, and his covenantal identity. A helpmeet is intended to have something religiously

00:37:40.920 and culturally in common with her husband, or else she cannot truly help him fulfill his God-given

00:37:45.860 task. This necessity for unity and correspondence is why scripture clearly places the burden of the

00:37:51.200 law against unequal marriages, not merely inter-religious marriages, though those are

00:37:56.540 explicitly condemned, but unequal unions more broadly, unions that fracture the very community

00:38:02.560 that marriage is meant to establish. Further, at the societal or civilizational level, marriage is

00:38:08.920 not merely a private affection. It's the foundation of peoplehood. It creates continuity of worship,

00:38:14.480 of language, of norms, of inheritance. When marriages routinely cross deep religious,

00:38:19.540 racial, and cultural boundaries, they tend not to strengthen community. In fact, they ordinarily

00:38:25.240 dissolve it. The biblical vision of marriage is ordered and communal. It assumes that what

00:38:32.280 is joined together shares not only affection, but a common life rooted in a shared belief,

00:38:36.840 shared culture, and yes, a shared identity. And it is on that foundation, biological reality,

00:38:42.220 creational order, and the covenantal purpose of marriage that we can conclude that interracial 0.67

00:38:46.740 marriage ordinarily goes against

00:38:48.940 God's normative design for 0.52

00:38:50.780 nations, cultures, and humanity

00:38:52.700 more broadly.

00:38:55.140 Next one is going to be

00:38:56.880 Avery, 10 minutes.

00:38:58.920 Can you set that clock?

00:39:00.900 Clock helps.

00:39:03.880 Alright, it's coming. Just a second.

00:39:09.120 It's coming, it's coming.

00:39:10.920 One job, man.

00:39:16.740 all right all right all right man uh thank you for having us man uh enjoying the the perspectives

00:39:22.940 that i'm hearing um ruslan i i want to piggyback off of you because you set a foundation here

00:39:29.420 scripturally and you were quoting scripture and so that i think that that is extremely important

00:39:34.360 in this conversation that we if we're talking about like he said if we're talking about whether

00:39:38.760 or not this goes against god's normative design well we find god's design within scripture not

00:39:44.500 with we make up, not with our own preference or position, arbitrary, you know, thoughts. It's

00:39:49.320 with scripture. So I think that we should start off with one, how does God view the foreigner?

00:39:55.440 How does he view someone who is not a native? And this is what we have in Leviticus chapter 19,

00:40:00.920 verse 33 and 34. It says, if a stranger lives as a foreigner with you in your land,

00:40:05.740 you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you 1.00

00:40:12.520 as the native born among you, and you shall love him as yourself. Let's go to Leviticus chapter 24

00:40:19.440 verse 22. It says, you shall have one kind of law for the foreigner as well as the native born.

00:40:26.540 So what we're seeing with the scripture is that one with God's intent, with God's narrative,

00:40:32.200 the foreigner, the one who clings to him, the one who loves him is the same as a natural born

00:40:38.880 Israelite who he gave the covenants to in the first place. They're the same. They're one in the

00:40:42.500 same, even though there are physical and cultural distinctions, but they are one in the same

00:40:47.180 in God's eyes, one law. We got Numbers chapter 15, verses 15 to 16. It says,

00:40:54.120 for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and the stranger who lives as a foreigner, 0.94

00:41:00.420 a statute forever throughout your generations. As you are, so the foreigner shall be before 0.99

00:41:09.080 Yahweh. One law, one ordinance shall be for you and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner 1.00

00:41:16.960 with you. That is Numbers chapter 15, verses 15 to 16. So again, we see this isn't just a 0.72

00:41:23.360 temporary thing. This is forever. It says there's one statute that is shared with the

00:41:30.280 stranger and the native born throughout your generations forever, God says. This looks like

00:41:36.620 God is establishing how he feels and how he cares about the foreigner, those who have physically

00:41:42.660 distinct traits with Israel. Let's see again, we got Ezekiel chapter 47, verse 22 to 23.

00:41:51.920 It says, you shall divide it by lot, talking about the land, you shall divide it by lot for

00:41:57.060 an inheritance to you and to the aliens who live among you who will father children among you then 0.87

00:42:04.400 they shall be to you as the native born among the children of Israel they shall have inheritance 0.71

00:42:10.380 with you among the tribes of Israel in whatever tribe the stranger lives there shall you give him

00:42:17.300 his inheritance says the Lord Yahweh so we see that even the stranger is able to get an inheritance 0.61

00:42:23.620 among Israel, even though they are of, I guess what we would say, a different race. But yet, 0.85

00:42:29.660 before the eyes of God, they are seen as one in the same, despite the cultural and even genetic

00:42:35.680 differences, right? So what do we see here then? In 1 Kings 11, we see what is the type of,

00:42:45.680 you know, condemnation against intermarriage that God displays, that God condemns. We see that

00:42:53.460 Solomon falls to this because he falls, he marries foreign women. And as a result of this, 1.00

00:42:59.200 the foreign women lead him astray. They lead him away from God. So what kind of intermarriages 1.00

00:43:06.360 does God not allow? He does not allow the ones that will lead you to idolatry, the ones who are

00:43:11.720 not in the same spiritual position as you that are going after different gods and idols. But if

00:43:20.040 If they go after Yahweh, if they believe in Yahweh, then they are that it's permissible. 0.99

00:43:25.420 It's OK. It's not a sin. And it's actually part of God's design. 0.57

00:43:29.420 It doesn't go against it. So let's see here.

00:43:33.540 So we have a few examples of this. We have in Ezekiel.

00:43:38.080 I'm sorry, not in Ezekiel. We have in Ezra. In Ezra, chapter 10, we have Ezra going against the intermarriage of the Israelites.

00:43:49.020 And this is what we have to say. Hold on just one second. This is what we have in Ezra. Ezra chapter 9 and we have Ezra chapter 9 verse 1. It says,

00:44:01.120 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken your commandments. Which commandment was this? Which you commanded by your servants, the prophets, saying the land that you are entering to take possession of it is a land impure with the impurity of the peoples of the lands.

00:44:22.360 why is it because of their genetic traits no he says it with their abominations they have filled 0.97

00:44:30.020 it from end to end with their uncleanliness therefore so here's what it is this is the

00:44:36.740 reason why therefore do not give your daughters to their sons neither take their daughters for

00:44:43.380 your sons and never seek their peace or prosperity that you may be strong and eat the good of the

00:44:49.320 and leave it for an inheritance for your children forever skipping down to the 14th 13 and 14th 0.99

00:44:55.400 verse it says shall we break your commandments again and intermarry with the peoples who practice 0.99

00:45:03.540 these abominations so you see what it is it has to do with their spiritual posture not their genetic 0.98

00:45:11.060 traits it has nothing to do with that the condemnation of intermarriage that god has in 0.99

00:45:16.120 his scripture go it goes against the foreigners who will lead you away from the worship of the

00:45:21.660 true God let's see again we have uh Exodus chapter 34 where we see the original commandment it says 1.00

00:45:27.300 be sure to keep what I am commanding you this day behold I am going to drive out the Amorite before 0.96

00:45:32.600 you the Canaanite the Hittite the the the the Paris is like the Paris you know you guys know 1.00

00:45:37.240 what I'm talking about sorry to say these words but all these nations y'all know what I'm saying

00:45:42.540 But what does he say? He says, he says, for God is a jealous God, lest you cut a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods.

00:45:56.440 And one of them invites you to eat of the sacrifice and you take some of their daughters for your sons and his daughters and his daughters play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.

00:46:10.940 You shall make for yourself no molten gods.

00:46:15.040 That's Exodus chapter 34, verses 11 to 17.

00:46:17.780 Deuteronomy 7, verse 6. 0.98

00:46:19.160 Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them. 0.99

00:46:22.180 You shall not give your daughters to their sons, 0.98

00:46:24.820 nor shall you take their daughters for your sons 0.66

00:46:27.940 because they will turn your sons away from following me 0.73

00:46:33.460 and they will serve other gods.

00:46:36.120 Then the anger of Yahweh will be kindled against you

00:46:39.560 and he will quickly destroy you what do we see here again every time we see a condemnation 0.91

00:46:45.300 with the with an intermarriage with a foreigner it has to do with the spiritual posture of the 0.54

00:46:51.540 foreigner it has nothing to do with their genetics it has nothing to do with the way they look it

00:46:56.640 has nothing to do with their background and culture it has to do with their spiritual

00:47:01.280 posture will they lead you away from the true god or not which is why we have examples of

00:47:07.500 foreigners into marriage where it's not condemned and this isn't these aren't exceptions this is

00:47:14.180 just God's God's command of be fruitful and multiply male and female he has made them not

00:47:20.220 a particular race he's made them for a particular race and you know it's male and female he created

00:47:25.800 them in his image gave them the command to be fruitful and multiply we got we gave examples

00:47:31.820 of Ruth. We got Rahab. We got the Moabite woman that Moses married. We got, oh, a beautiful example

00:47:38.740 with the, in 1st Chronicles chapter 2, we have Shashan, who the context is counting the line

00:47:45.980 of Judah. In order to preserve the line of Judah, Shashan, unfortunately, he didn't have any sons.

00:47:51.100 However, he had an Egyptian slave and he only had daughters. So what did he do? He married his 0.68

00:47:56.860 egyptian male slave to one of the daughters and the line continued if this goes against god's 0.64

00:48:03.220 normative plan then there's no way that the line of judah which our messiah our lord our great god

00:48:09.300 and king comes from in the flesh there's no way that this will be able to continue it will be 0.99

00:48:14.200 diluted because there's somebody who is of a different race in the line so what do we see 0.98

00:48:19.980 then we with all of these examples we have explicit examples where god condemns it because

00:48:25.180 of the spiritual posture, not because of culture and race. And what does the Bible say on this?

00:48:30.880 The Bible says this in Galatians chapter three, verse 26. It says, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

00:48:36.700 There's neither slave nor free man. There is neither male or female, but for you are all one

00:48:41.120 in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are of Abraham's seed, heirs according

00:48:46.700 to the promise, not according to your flesh, right? We got Colossians chapter three, verse 0.83

00:48:51.920 8 to 11 we'll just read 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between greek and jew

00:48:57.640 circumcised and uncircumcised barbarian sithian slave and free man but christ is all and in all

00:49:04.200 and then last but not least first corinthians 7 39 it says a wife is bound as long as her husband

00:49:09.880 lives but if her husband has fallen asleep she is free to be married to whom she wishes

00:49:16.920 only in the Lord. All right. That's 10 minutes. Thank you. Last one is five minutes on the clock

00:49:24.000 for Wesley. All right. I'll watch for that clock to be set and I'll jump right in. Yeah, we're

00:49:28.400 going to wait for a sec. I got 10. We can count it down to five. We know math. I'm going to go

00:49:33.280 ahead and start. So for the ending here, I'd like to lay down a foundation for what it is specifically

00:49:38.740 we mean by race. The thesis statement specifies interracial marriage. What is interracial marriage?

00:49:44.940 Race, in its simplest definition, simply means common descent.

00:49:48.620 People of a given race share a common ancestor at a relatively recent point,

00:49:54.040 as distinguished from other lineages that do not share that same ancestry.

00:49:58.240 We all share Adam as the ultimate head of humanity, the first human, and Eve, the mother of all living.

00:50:03.720 Thus, there is a sense in which one can say Adam is the head of the human race.

00:50:07.780 But just because there is one ultimate common lineage

00:50:10.980 does not mean that there are not additional, meaningful, more recent shared ancestries.

00:50:17.020 Thousands of years more recently from Adam, every individual in the world, every human being,

00:50:21.380 is a descendant of one of Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, or Japheth, or they are a mix of two or three of 0.83

00:50:27.300 them. Europeans, for example, they are the offsprings of Japheth, who migrated north to the

00:50:32.160 coastland. Asians and Middle Eastern peoples descended from Shem. Africans descended from Ham, 0.99

00:50:37.040 who went south. It is important to understand that within each broad lineage, those big three 0.94

00:50:41.780 buckets, there can be further specificity. Within Europeans, for example, there are the Germanics,

00:50:46.680 the French, the Scottish, the Spanish, the Southeastern, and the Slavic-influenced Europeans.

00:50:51.780 These are people with different languages, cultures, diets, habits, and occupying different

00:50:56.000 geography that have been shaped to be biologically unique. They are not just distinct in practice

00:51:02.180 or culture. They are distinct inherently. Traits such as height, bone structure, intelligence,

00:51:08.020 skin tone, body fat and muscle composition, immune systems, and more have all been shaped by

00:51:12.740 the geography, the culture, the diet, climate, and religion. And so race is our shorthand way

00:51:18.980 of speaking of groups of people that are biologically related. They've been shaped by

00:51:23.660 the same factors over time. I imagine at some point the crux of this debate will come down

00:51:29.520 to this question. If all other factors, culture, religion, were made equal, there's no unequal

00:51:35.460 yoking between unbelievers or between individuals that share little in common, would it still be

00:51:40.520 our position that interracial marriage is not God's normative design? To which we would answer,

00:51:46.880 yes. God ordered the descendants of Adam to be fruitful, multiply, and spread over the face of

00:51:52.220 the world. In doing so, God knew that those families would eventually come to look, act,

00:51:57.640 and talk in very different ways, even if sin never entered the world. After the flood, God

00:52:02.440 repeats the order to man to spread out and to fill the earth. Shortly after, man rebels at Babel, 0.89

00:52:08.520 gathering together to build a tower to the sky, insisting we will not be distinct, unique, we will

00:52:14.420 not disperse. God judges them with the confusion of language, making them spread out and become

00:52:20.280 unique. The unique traits that human beings acquire are God's design. He designed blonde hair,

00:52:25.080 high cheekbones, blue eyes, redheads, and thousands of other unique variations, and the

00:52:30.180 mechanism, that is lineage, that passes them down generation after generation. He made a world that

00:52:36.060 optimized Kenyans for endurance, Arctic peoples for cold survival, and equator populations for

00:52:41.140 the relentless sun. I, for one, I'd like to go on the record and say, I think that God's design

00:52:45.880 is very good. None of us here want to see the distinctiveness of any people erased. If God did

00:52:50.960 not want geography and diet and religion to make people unique, he would not have designed the

00:52:56.020 world that way. He would not have made traits from parents to children, but he did, and he required

00:53:00.920 that men spread out so that they would form those unique peoples, languages, and races. The only way

00:53:06.960 I know how to defend the distinctiveness of the peoples God has shaped in the face of the earth

00:53:11.400 is by asserting that God did not design interracial marriage to be normative. If interracial marriage 0.88

00:53:17.000 was normative, by this time of the gospel age, all differences between peoples would be flattened. 0.99

00:53:22.260 We would resemble Babel more than Revelation 7-9. For there to be every tribe, tongue,

00:53:27.920 and nation in heaven on the final day, they have to actually still exist here on earth first. 1.00

00:53:34.340 At a large enough scale, interracial marriage would destroy the uniqueness of the Europeans, 0.98

00:53:38.880 the South Americans, the Japanese, the Inuit Eskimos, and every other people group that 0.95

00:53:43.480 practiced it at large enough scale, which is why, coincidentally, many peoples don't. White people,

00:53:49.000 which are as low as 10% of the world's population after two world wars, would be practically extinct 0.76

00:53:54.440 in a few generations if interracial marriage was adopted at scale. Thus, we take the affirmative, 1.00

00:53:59.920 arguing that interracial marriage, while permissible, is not God's ordinary design for 0.86

00:54:04.440 humanity, and that it is good and right for people to maintain their uniqueness by ordinarily 0.85

00:54:09.080 marrying within their own ethnicity nation and race all right there you have it there's all the

00:54:15.960 opening statements that's about 40 minutes we did it everybody everybody stuck to their time i'm

00:54:20.660 impressed by that so um that is all the opening statements uh wes and antonio were five minutes

00:54:26.420 each because we've got three guys on our side but i didn't want to it's like a father having to pick

00:54:30.800 which one of his kids that he has to shoot in the backyard i've got two co-hosts and i didn't want

00:54:34.940 you know tell one of them sorry you can't be on the show so uh they used to uh five minutes and

00:54:39.160 then you know uh russell and avery got to do 10 so it's 20 minutes each uh what we're going to do

00:54:43.460 now is go to a quick commercial break and then we'll go into the discussion portion of uh this

00:54:48.300 informal debate it is a debate but but we're not it's not completely you know link is lincoln

00:54:53.980 douglas style debate uh so it's going to be an informal discussion going back and forth but first

00:54:59.480 we're going to go to a commercial break and then we'll see you right after that here in the united

00:55:03.660 States of America, we believe that we're blessed in this nation with an abundance of resources

00:55:08.140 and that it's our God-given duty to exercise wise stewardship over them for the flourishing

00:55:13.240 of our people, but also the security of our homeland. See, some of our viewers, you might

00:55:18.760 remember when we first featured a sponsor called Saga Medals, and since that spotlight,

00:55:24.440 shares for Saga have surged by over 130%. Now, the results are in, and they're the strongest to

00:55:31.780 date on january 2nd saga released drill results from their flagship radar titanium project the

00:55:39.140 market reacted immediately sending the stock flying up over 17 in a single day saga metals

00:55:45.940 is publicly traded here in the u.s under the ticker s-a-g-m-f and if you're in canada it trades under

00:55:53.140 the ticker saga s-a-g-a strategic government focus multiple high potential projects and a team pushing

00:56:01.620 forward relentlessly through the winter saga metals is now moving full steam ahead if you

00:56:07.600 want to learn more about this critical mineral story then you can check out the link in our

00:56:12.180 description below a special thanks to saga metals for making today's video possible

00:56:17.500 all right we are back okay so we're gonna discuss going off of what was said in the opening

00:56:25.600 statements and those kind of things i i would like to if you guys will allow me i would like to

00:56:29.520 respond to two things first. So first, you brought up the old clips. I feel like I've got to get that

00:56:34.680 out of the way, right? It's kind of an elephant in the room. So everything that I said in those

00:56:38.500 clips is exactly what I'm saying now. It's not. It's not. No, it's not. There's no chance. Right.

00:56:45.060 And I'm not going to treat people like they're stupid. That's not true. What Ruslan is showing, 1.00

00:56:50.360 that was from 2022. And then he just reminded me during that commercial break. And it's not

00:56:54.880 public record but i'm i'm a christian pastor i'm not a liar so uh he said in 2023 that's when i

00:56:59.920 came out and he was gracious and had me on his show to talk about theonomy talk about postmill

00:57:04.040 and uh and not on the air but afterwards we got sushi together which was awesome

00:57:08.380 and i reaffirmed the basic tenets of the same thing i was because i told you my wife was black

00:57:13.260 and that's right yeah well and i met her when we walked up in your driveway i think she came out

00:57:17.320 and said hi so anyways uh so as recent as 2023 but i'll i'll strengthen your argument do you

00:57:22.460 one better um because i know me um i i thought what you just heard with those clips that russon

00:57:28.560 played during his uh opening statement uh that was basically you know there's some nuances and

00:57:33.520 developments evolution you know but um you know over the which we we deny macro evolution um but

00:57:39.780 over over you know some some nuances and developments over the last few years but i

00:57:44.300 would say that the position i'm articulating today is a recent development this is something

00:57:49.020 that I've come to the conviction of, I would say probably in the last year. And so I'm willing to

00:57:54.060 admit that. So what I would say with those past things is I'll say what I've said. Our audience

00:57:58.600 knows this because I've said it several times because they've picked up, you know, like, hey,

00:58:02.080 this isn't always what you believe. You know, how do you account for that? You believe one thing,

00:58:05.400 now you believe another. I find it strange. I think it's like a curious, it's an interesting

00:58:11.980 brag when someone says, you know what, for the last 20 years, I haven't changed on anything.

00:58:19.020 I've been consistent.

00:58:20.800 I've held the exact same positions for two decades.

00:58:24.160 To which my response would be, for the last two decades, you haven't grown at all?

00:58:28.600 You haven't improved at all?

00:58:30.220 You haven't learned anything at all?

00:58:32.040 You haven't been sanctified at all?

00:58:33.700 You haven't grown at all?

00:58:35.300 Why are we bragging about that?

00:58:37.200 So, you know, Matt Walsh, somebody got him on this recently.

00:58:39.960 And he was like, yeah, I learned.

00:58:42.640 I grew.

00:58:43.800 I changed.

00:58:44.600 So I'll admit that right out of the gate.

00:58:46.280 So that's my answer.

00:58:47.200 That's all I got for that.

00:58:48.220 That's all I can explain.

00:58:49.260 But you're absolutely right.

00:58:50.380 There's an inconsistency.

00:58:52.100 So can I just...

00:58:52.940 Yeah, go for it.

00:58:53.600 So today, if a young black brother, maybe your half-brother, pulls up, loves Jesus,

00:59:00.420 loves the Lord, loves your local church.

00:59:02.560 I don't know.

00:59:02.920 How old are your daughters?

00:59:03.640 I don't want to make it weird.

00:59:04.620 They're very young.

00:59:05.500 Okay, so let's just say fast forward 10 years down the road.

00:59:09.440 You got a cousin that loves Jesus.

00:59:11.740 Man, he loves the Lord.

00:59:12.700 He's a post-mill, Christian nationalist, theophonist, natural law, all those things. 0.96

00:59:19.660 Doesn't like Israel. 0.52

00:59:20.540 Right, doesn't like Israel. 1.00

00:59:21.800 He hates the Jews. 0.99

00:59:22.580 Checking all the boxes. 0.99

00:59:23.480 All the things.

00:59:24.660 And your cousin and your brother, your half-brother, he's full black. 0.82

00:59:27.200 He shows up 10 years, 15 years, and he starts dating your daughter. 0.74

00:59:31.260 Are you now saying, hey, I don't think you guys should get married?

00:59:33.640 And they love each other, and they love the Lord.

00:59:35.020 That's a great question.

00:59:35.520 And they have culture in common, and they're very similar.

00:59:38.900 Are you now, like, did your position change in that regard?

00:59:42.000 Because you said if your daughter brings home a black man, you're like, praise the Lord, he loves Jesus.

00:59:47.520 Awesome.

00:59:47.940 Right.

00:59:48.160 Great question.

00:59:48.800 So this is how we respond.

00:59:49.700 First, just to make it just clear for our audience, that would never happen.

00:59:53.960 And the reason that would never happen is no young man will date any of my daughters without first coming through me.

00:59:59.200 We don't do dating in the Webin household.

01:00:01.300 So it would be courtship.

01:00:02.420 They would have to talk to me first.

01:00:04.160 So it's not like, oh, I'd find out six months in, oh, my daughter's dating someone?

01:00:07.540 I didn't even know.

01:00:08.440 So we're not libs.

01:00:09.320 So we don't do that.

01:00:10.300 So that would never happen.

01:00:11.080 Number two, this is, my wife and I were talking about this, you know, because I've had to disciple my wife and, you know, like for her to know, okay, what are some of these developments?

01:00:20.400 Can you walk me through it?

01:00:21.460 You know, because these are new things.

01:00:22.960 This is not what we were taught.

01:00:24.160 Like a couple of years ago, when you hear me espousing those things, you play those clips, you know who I'm thinking of in my mind as I'm saying that?

01:00:30.120 Who I still respect greatly, but who I'm thinking of Votie Bauckham.

01:00:33.860 I love Votie Bauckham, right?

01:00:35.500 I got to have, I was honored to have one public conversation with him, uh, an episode on Christian

01:00:40.320 nationalism and one private phone call. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to talk about the

01:00:44.400 private phone call because we've had enough people saying, well, Charlie, uh, Kirk texted me private,

01:00:48.580 you know, or I had a private phone call. I'm sick of that crap with all the stuff online right now. 0.95

01:00:53.920 You know how many people are saying like, Oh, why? Well, he personally told me this right before he 0.98

01:00:58.220 died. So no, that, um, I had one private phone call. It was great. And we did not talk about

01:01:03.160 interracial marriage so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna talk about that but here's the deal i'm

01:01:06.560 thinking of votie bacham i'm thinking of him saying one race the human race you know and and

01:01:11.200 a few years ago i would have been like yeah what race the human race you get them votie get those

01:01:17.740 races and that would have been my position and i i've developed since then so if a so in this

01:01:23.200 scenario if a young black man came to me first because we do courting he'd have to go through me

01:01:28.900 and he wants to uh to date my daughter i'm always going to consider her interest if she's not

01:01:35.680 interested we're not doing it you know so i'm going to talk to her i i would consider those

01:01:39.340 interests those kinds of things but in terms of would i give the green light as i was walking

01:01:43.600 my wife through this and she brought up the same kind of question and she said voting you know

01:01:47.500 that's who she used in this analogy she was like what if it was um you know one of voting's sons

01:01:52.080 and then it's one of our daughters and i said see that's and this is important for the debate

01:01:56.880 the distinction between two different categories, ethnicity and race. And I believe they overlap,

01:02:02.340 but we're going to use them as two different terms. Ethnicity, I would say, is it contains

01:02:07.460 the racial components, but it's much broader because ethnicity is not just biological. It's

01:02:12.340 not just ancestry and lineage, but it also encompasses language, liturgy. So I do L's like 0.80

01:02:18.240 loves, language, liturgy, being worship, religion, those kinds of things,

01:02:23.220 you know customs culture traditions all these things come in law yeah all these things come

01:02:30.740 into play with ethnicity and in the case of Votie Bauckham's son it would be and this is just the

01:02:36.200 reality I'm not excited about it it makes me sad but it is the reality Votie Bauckham's son in these 0.98

01:02:41.400 United States of America in the year of our Lord 2026 would be one of the rare black men young

01:02:48.100 black men who actually shares for the most part virtually to a t the same ethnicity as my white

01:02:55.620 daughters right meaning same religion same worldview same traditions both celebrate

01:03:02.440 thanksgiving both you know like christmas same all that traditions customs um uh heritage being

01:03:09.740 like he's he's not a black nigerian who came here 15 minutes ago but like has been in america heritage

01:03:15.000 black american that has been here tracing his ancestry back for a couple centuries so in that

01:03:19.980 regard and the reformed baptist i'm reformed baptist the doctrinal things would be aligned

01:03:24.140 all those kind of things so that would be one of the rare individuals the reality is and i don't

01:03:28.000 think you guys are going to push back on this the reality is i would say that about 90 to 95 percent

01:03:33.440 of the black church in america is heretical has okay terrible doctrinal views so what you're

01:03:40.940 Are you conceding that you would let your daughter, Mary,

01:03:43.840 vote her back and son 10 years in the future? 0.56

01:03:45.140 Is that what you're saying?

01:03:45.700 What I'm saying is that that would be permissible.

01:03:48.300 I would not encourage it, though.

01:03:49.880 You would not encourage it.

01:03:50.560 Would you discourage it?

01:03:53.140 It depends.

01:03:55.000 On what?

01:03:56.080 Well, because, so here's the scenario. 0.84

01:03:57.900 For every young black man that meets that mold, the ethnic, not racial, 0.70

01:04:02.480 but ethnic mold, they have the same religion, the same traditions,

01:04:05.280 the same customs, the same language, all that kind of stuff.

01:04:07.240 for every one of those currently right now in not just america but in my local church

01:04:12.720 there would be several young white men who would also meet those exact standards that's not what

01:04:17.640 we're asking would you discourage the black man who meets those standards would you discourage 0.54

01:04:22.840 your daughter or that relationship what i'm saying is that if all things are equal black man white 0.80

01:04:29.640 man with my daughter being white if all things are equal i would encourage her towards a white 0.59

01:04:35.440 young man would you discourage her from the black man it's a simple yes yeah yeah so you

01:04:42.600 would discourage her yeah as opposed to marrying a young white no no no you're creating a false

01:04:49.200 binary i'm saying in a vacuum there's only one of that a black man goes to your church loves jesus 0.65

01:04:54.620 in a vacuum yes that black man is the only suitor that there is that i would want my daughter to 0.91

01:05:01.780 get married okay so you would prefer marriage to my daughter being alone okay age is a huge factor 0.85

01:05:06.820 as i think about it for my children as well if you're a 40 year old man you came to christ just

01:05:10.740 a couple years ago and to be honest there's not a lot of gals lining up and you say hey here's this

01:05:15.100 gal we're not closely related but she's a christian she's lovely she wants to marry me and have a

01:05:20.760 family that is very much so different than say a man who's 22 who's upwardly socially mobile

01:05:25.560 saying i'm interested in this for these reasons so age as well also comes in yeah i don't want to

01:05:31.080 in the weeds of age. I think it's important to say just at the outset, as we think about even

01:05:35.120 the premise of the debate, is we use this word ordinarily. And it's an important word because

01:05:39.840 we actually, there's two levels of analysis. There's the universal, and you could say a

01:05:44.080 principle or something that's normative. It happens generally speaking. And then you can

01:05:48.280 get into the particulars, right? Look at individual contexts. And what I think it's more helpful to

01:05:54.260 stay at the frame of the universal or the principle, because what we'll do if we just

01:05:58.520 keep pulling up examples of like what if there was this and this and then and then i get you

01:06:02.280 totally i i understand there's also a lot in that word generally there's all you guys are sneaking

01:06:07.800 in a lot of that word generally that's why i asked you but i put it there intentionally i understand

01:06:11.420 not to be sneaky but just to say there are general principles yes general principles are not

01:06:16.300 necessarily universal principles real quick i think you have something but just just a point

01:06:20.100 of clarity um i think we're using our words a little different okay so when you say ethnicity

01:06:25.200 i think ancestry like 23andme dna so when you're saying ethnicity are you using it more like

01:06:30.360 nationality like american ethnicity is american like a black man who loves jesus is a american

01:06:36.420 ethnicity is that so biblically i would say you know nation nacio that that would actually be

01:06:41.720 more more in uh in line with what we think of as race okay when i say ethnicity i'm using like

01:06:49.260 steven wolf's definition of that ethnicity so i would argue um that you know that like i want

01:06:54.420 america as a christian nationalist to be mono ethnic this is what i mean by that um i want

01:06:59.620 everyone in america that doesn't mean mono racial although i would like america to be predominantly

01:07:04.820 white i would because that's the history that's the heritage sounds boring it's currently those

01:07:11.100 are our people there are people the pioneers who came and they they spread out they endured the

01:07:16.260 hardship they created the most prosperous nation the world has ever seen yeah like those are my

01:07:21.160 people and to say, and then the future

01:07:23.160 looks nothing like them. It has no continuity,

01:07:25.420 no resemblance.

01:07:26.920 I wouldn't say that. Is the Sudan boring?

01:07:29.160 I'm not going against this. Is Japan boring?

01:07:31.180 No, I'm just saying. I'm not

01:07:33.120 going against this idea of

01:07:34.420 the great work

01:07:37.360 that a particular

01:07:38.780 people have done or put in.

01:07:41.580 But you're saying

01:07:43.140 that you would

01:07:45.080 want America

01:07:47.260 to be majority 0.93

01:07:49.360 white. You would want them to be 1.00

01:07:51.120 majority white if you had and this was what was was interesting if you had a a black person who 1.00

01:07:59.340 met your criteria standard wise and character wise and spiritually that you would discourage

01:08:05.260 your daughter from marrying this individual if if we're not in a vacuum if we're not in isolation

01:08:10.960 then ordinarily for every black man who would fit my criteria currently right now let's just be

01:08:15.860 honest for every black man who would meet my theological criteria heritage criteria all those

01:08:21.000 kind of things moral criteria behavioral criteria he's upstanding for every black man like that

01:08:26.420 there would be at least 20 white men so but but why would you why would you discourage against

01:08:33.380 the the black one who meets your because if both options are viable there are 20 white men who

01:08:39.020 fit the bill and one black man who fits the bill then all things being equal i would prefer for my

01:08:46.040 grandchildren to look like me okay and so it's a preference let me just let me just chime in we

01:08:51.240 further deny that sovereign nations must only be composed of mono-ethnic populations therefore as

01:08:56.760 christian nationalists we utter utterly repudiate sinful ethnic partiality in all its forms so

01:09:02.060 you signed this statement denying a country being a mono-ethnic population okay but you signed this

01:09:08.600 christian nationalist statement this sounds like a clear contradiction which you just said which

01:09:11.660 you would prefer to be monoethnic. Prefer, must. Yeah. Those are two different words. Okay. So, 0.98

01:09:16.240 so that you don't think that's a bit of a contradiction in a statement you've, you've

01:09:19.540 signed here? No, I don't. We want America to be monoethnic. Again, that does not mean monoracial

01:09:25.260 or monocolor. So when I say monoethnic, I'm thinking of someone like Clarence Thomas,

01:09:30.000 who is a Christian American man. He's a Christian American man. I don't, I don't want people who are

01:09:37.520 from haiti and got here two weeks ago but if america was not monoracial right there are some 0.83

01:09:43.960 black people there's hispanic people there's some asian people and majority white people

01:09:48.160 but they're all christian they all speak english i don't walk into stores and see seven different

01:09:53.580 languages i understand your that's what i mean by monoethnic okay so you would prefer it but it must

01:09:58.460 not be i wouldn't say it has to be in order for it to be a christian nation okay you don't think

01:10:03.440 that's incongruent and incoherent no okay yeah you have when you get to the empire status i think of

01:10:09.180 russia for example you're going to be the composition of a number of different people

01:10:12.660 from different geographies and your challenges have enough of a shared identity but you also

01:10:16.700 don't want to destroy the distinctives and so america's pretty big it's a lot different than

01:10:21.500 a nation like georgia for example georgia will probably mostly monoracial and monoethnic america

01:10:26.660 people could identify as america that would be great but we do recognize you have parts of like

01:10:30.620 i said the heritage blacks in the south the hispanics mostly in texas and california you're

01:10:35.820 going to have some differences in there and you don't have to as the christian nation come in and

01:10:39.240 say and now all these distinctions have to be flattened there will be no more soccer you can

01:10:43.620 say no we recognize 350 million people there's going to be little italy and there's going to

01:10:47.640 be little chinatown but and you don't have to say those things can't exist i would like to get rid

01:10:52.400 of soccer they call it they call it football soccer everywhere else soccer is a deceitful

01:10:59.080 tactic to get people to just run long distances for no reason go ahead i want to ask you the same

01:11:05.440 question so like because you are a more unique you know side of this team yeah you know so when

01:11:11.540 it comes to how you're viewing this um what would you i don't i i will i don't know what to present

01:11:18.460 to you what what's because you're you're interracial you're black and white yeah so how would

01:11:22.980 you handle a black or white um person trying to come and let's say you had a daughter or or vice 0.54

01:11:29.860 versa a son and they're trying to come in into your family yeah it's a good question um and one

01:11:34.920 actually that is it's really important for the purpose of this conversation because people like

01:11:39.180 me are the product of kind of what we're going back and forth over and and i yeah it presents a

01:11:43.840 bunch of quandaries i think being biracial being mixed race whatever you want to call it

01:11:48.060 I would say I would get back to the sort of the core theme of the position. It's this idea and

01:11:54.360 we, you know, in my opening statement, I rooted it in creational order, but it's this idea that

01:11:58.820 marriage is founded on this idea of compatibility or more specific word could be correspondence.

01:12:04.880 So I have three children. My children are 70. I'm married to a white woman. My children are 75%

01:12:09.500 white. I believe a shared identity, a component of shared of your identity is your race. I think 0.64

01:12:17.140 you would probably admit that uh as well right like uh when you you talk to people and you say

01:12:21.340 yeah i'm black and this and that black that blackness carries some significance it carries

01:12:26.440 some meaning when you say it um and and so so having race as a component of shared identity

01:12:32.180 i have children who are 75 percent white they certainly i if you saw them you would believe

01:12:37.460 they presented as white uh you'd be hard-pressed to like think they had uh they were set 25 percent

01:12:42.540 black for example um i would encourage my children to find a spouse that is compatible with them

01:12:47.840 that is not only culturally and we think about ethnos and i think my definition of ethnos

01:12:53.260 encapsulates basically language culture exactly what sort of joel is describing but not only that

01:12:58.120 i think the shared identity um as well is is a part of that and i think in the same way that

01:13:03.320 black people can have a sort of a blackness a black element to their identity white people

01:13:08.040 should have a black element or sorry a white element there's some whites that got a black 0.58

01:13:12.440 element yeah that's definitely true uh so so my my position would would be to encourage my child 0.91

01:13:18.080 to marry a white woman on the basis of that um and really yeah even because it sounds like they

01:13:23.860 have both no well his kids look very white for his kids are i mean they're two of my children have

01:13:30.520 they're uh yeah they're very white they're very i'll just say that they're like the phenotype is

01:13:36.380 is white and they their their mother is white their father is half white i mean you can do

01:13:41.520 the math on that they're 75 would you question for you right so i want to ask you this question

01:13:45.780 because i've i've you know being mixed race i've spent my time around within the black community

01:13:50.340 and black culture and i'm pretty familiar with it in that sense um do you do you believe that

01:13:57.140 i guess uh your your black the black american culture is distinct from the white american

01:14:02.680 culture um in a way yeah would you say would it be safe to say that predominantly the average

01:14:09.420 black person you meet on the street is going you're going to be able to pick up in their

01:14:13.080 uh sort of how they articulate how that you know how they talk we're using our hands where

01:14:17.840 that that person comes from a distinct culture from say like suburban you know uh westchester

01:14:24.280 connecticut yeah yeah right and so i i think there's an element of that that uh and in the

01:14:29.700 way of like race actually serves as a proxy like we we can talk about all these examples like here's

01:14:34.480 all the elements of compatibility tradition custom where you grew up which is important for

01:14:38.200 compatibility and certainly an element and you have race and the idea that you like solve for

01:14:42.760 all of these all things being equal and the votie bockham situation uh but like race is the only

01:14:47.760 distinctive and i would just say experientially is is a very very rare thing like i've rarely met

01:14:53.160 a black person who was like uh who had like no sort of uh ties if you will to a distinct culture

01:15:00.160 from white culture do you he's wearing turtleneck right i mean i wear turtleneck yeah there you go

01:15:06.160 i would just ask like man you guys this is like a texas thing because i think you go to other parts

01:15:12.040 of the country and you'll discover that there's a way more culturally cultural overlap meaning if

01:15:16.580 you come to oceanside vista california you're gonna have way more in common with a person that

01:15:20.980 went to the same high school group

01:15:22.280 in the same community,

01:15:23.280 listened to the same music,

01:15:24.760 comes from a similar family,

01:15:25.940 comes from the same surface.

01:15:26.800 That would be what you're describing

01:15:28.280 as like a micro-ethnicity,

01:15:29.900 even more particular.

01:15:31.060 And you're right.

01:15:31.780 So if people have both grown up,

01:15:33.760 not just in the same nation,

01:15:35.040 but they've both grown up

01:15:36.120 in the same county.

01:15:37.440 Yeah, they're going to have

01:15:38.640 way more in common.

01:15:39.320 And I only use that as a proxy.

01:15:41.040 So the ethnic overlap

01:15:41.760 can be extreme,

01:15:44.000 like a lot of that.

01:15:44.940 But do you see my point, though?

01:15:46.420 I'm saying that those two people

01:15:48.040 are going to have substantially

01:15:48.860 more in common

01:15:49.760 if they're from the same region than marrying a white woman from Nebraska.

01:15:54.520 Oh, sure.

01:15:55.040 So if we zoom in to, what did you say, Oceanside, for example,

01:15:58.980 and then you have like a...

01:16:00.080 I remember Oceanside.

01:16:00.760 I've never been there, so forgive me for...

01:16:02.860 You should come visit.

01:16:03.500 Well, maybe I might.

01:16:04.980 It's nice.

01:16:06.000 But anyway, so...

01:16:06.620 It was nice.

01:16:07.980 It's not as nice.

01:16:09.180 We're still doing the Lord's Word now.

01:16:10.540 All right.

01:16:10.760 Yeah, so I say that because I think, again,

01:16:15.060 the disconnect is very like very broad definitions of the word race when when you meet a lot of

01:16:22.260 people and travel a lot and experience a lot you'll start discovering that man Ethiopian 0.56

01:16:26.660 second generation evangelicals are very different than descendants of slaves in America yeah you'll 0.87

01:16:33.320 discover that Ghanaian people are very different than Ethiopian people you'll discover I'm Armenian 0.54

01:16:39.480 my mother's adopted by an Armenian family but she's Russian you'll discover there's a lot of

01:16:43.620 difference between Armenians and Russians. You'll discover there's a lot of difference between

01:16:46.600 Armenians and Armenians living in Azerbaijan. And then there's a lot of difference between Armenians

01:16:50.680 from there versus Armenians in Glendale. I have nothing in common with an Armenian woman that 1.00

01:16:55.600 grew up in Glendale. We have virtually zero in common culturally, even though we might both be

01:16:59.660 Christian, right? So I think what I'm saying is we're using these really broad definitions for

01:17:04.280 race, which like, you guys familiar when the word race even made it into the English language

01:17:09.700 approximately 16th century yeah 16th that's relatively modern right so if we're going to

01:17:13.860 rail against the leftists and the liberals for their definitions of gender and their definite

01:17:17.380 and all this nonsense that we're seeing from the left this is a relatively modern innovation for

01:17:21.580 this broadcast of hey there's blacks and there's whites and there's asians and then maybe a couple

01:17:26.520 of others but we don't know it again it falls apart because it's way more based on ethnicity

01:17:31.720 this is why we see tribes warring in parts of africa this is why you tell a persian they're

01:17:36.340 arab and they're going to be very upset at you you tell the arab they're persian or turk they're

01:17:40.400 going to be very upset at you so i think the distinctions is way more cultural and nuanced

01:17:44.800 than just these very broad categories categories you guys understand what i'm saying yes part of

01:17:49.660 the reason i would say that that race has at least the word the concept i think is old but at least

01:17:55.240 the word has has come into you know uh more regular use in language in recent times is is

01:18:02.400 partly because um of of the radical changes that we've made in the world like back in the day when

01:18:08.380 you say this person is of this nation um it it tended to mean that he's of of the same

01:18:15.800 biological characteristics cultural characteristics but now like because we have you know people have

01:18:23.220 moved and we have tons of people over here and tons of people over there and all the now you

01:18:28.400 If somebody says, well, I'm American, then the natural question is like, well, what kind of American are you?

01:18:35.620 What kind of American?

01:18:36.860 If I can't see them and I can't detect like an accent in their voice and they're just saying, I'm an American and I can't see them, I wouldn't really have a clue.

01:18:49.420 Right.

01:18:49.920 So do you see how it's arbitrary then?

01:18:51.600 Saying I'm an American is no different than someone saying I'm white.

01:18:54.640 What does that even mean?

01:18:55.860 Which white?

01:18:56.360 Irish? 0.61

01:18:56.900 Scottish?

01:18:57.400 Italian?

01:18:58.420 There was hierarchies within white folks when they came over, okay?

01:19:01.180 So what does that even mean? 0.89

01:19:02.480 Are Armenians white?

01:19:03.620 I don't know.

01:19:04.000 It depends on who you ask, right? 0.66

01:19:05.340 So are Armenians white?

01:19:06.540 These categories are way more divided when you travel outside of the United States and

01:19:11.740 you start discovering that people are actually married.

01:19:13.960 Japanese folks don't want to marry Chinese folks and it has nothing to do with race.

01:19:17.400 Zero to do with race. 0.83

01:19:18.160 Well, no, it is because they're distinct people occupying two different spaces.

01:19:21.680 But that's not race.

01:19:22.300 That's not race.

01:19:23.680 That's ethnicity and nationality. 0.96

01:19:25.160 They're biologically different from one another, whether it be in bone structure. 0.98

01:19:28.200 Yes, but there's white folks that are biologically different. 0.97

01:19:30.040 If you go northern, the white folks there love milk. 0.98

01:19:32.280 You go south, Europe, the white folks are lactose intolerant.

01:19:35.040 There's all sorts of disparities within races. 0.75

01:19:37.780 Sure, but...

01:19:39.120 But you understand that point.

01:19:40.360 The genetic disparities within races, oftentimes there's more disparities between white people

01:19:45.180 than there are between a black and a white person.

01:19:47.860 The intergroup versus between the groups in general.

01:19:49.120 So I come from Armenia, from the Caucasus Mountains.

01:19:54.520 I am an Armenian from the Caucasus Mountains.

01:19:56.820 I'm Caucasian?

01:19:58.900 Yeah?

01:19:59.440 Yeah.

01:19:59.600 I'm an original Caucasian. 0.98

01:20:00.940 You guys are all frauds as far as I'm concerned, right? 0.96

01:20:03.280 But you talk to some people, and Armenians aren't viewed as white, 0.98

01:20:07.540 depending on who you're talking to.

01:20:08.600 That's the confusing part about all this stuff.

01:20:10.860 And again, if God is a God of order, if God is a God of not making stuff confusing,

01:20:15.600 we're now getting into creating restrictions that Scripture does not clearly lay out.

01:20:20.580 And we can get back into the Scriptures if you guys want.

01:20:21.740 I'm glad you're emphasizing the distinctiveness and the lack of confusion, because my position,

01:20:25.940 as I laid it out, interracial marriage, if it was normative, let's say 50, 60 percent,

01:20:31.220 it would destroy those distinctions in a matter of generations. If you brought the people, 0.99

01:20:35.640 you said Armenia, I know there's Georgia kind of to the north of Iran. If you took all of those 0.82

01:20:39.460 people and they said, you know what, we're going to do it. It's going to be normative. It's going

01:20:42.820 to be ordinary. If they went ahead and did that, much of the distinctions, all of those distinctions

01:20:47.220 that you're talking about would actually be flattened. You would just kind of then have this

01:20:51.520 group of eastern europeans that all they didn't really have a identity or something shared from

01:20:56.400 the past your parents would go back to the homeland and say this doesn't look like anything

01:21:00.700 i recognize but this already doesn't look like anything we recognize because we were ethnically

01:21:03.740 cleansed from azabarjan because we are armenians exactly right ethnically cleansing not great

01:21:07.720 not great terrible thing that people you're saying there's ethnic cleansing happening through 0.97

01:21:11.800 interbreeding yes through third world migration into europe the rape of white women all across 0.98

01:21:17.580 northern europe yes yes you are having it's it's traumatic it's psychological terror for white 0.98

01:21:22.920 girls to think that they're going to be raped on the way to school like we all agree i'm not going 0.92

01:21:28.680 to you know paint you guys badly you all would agree that that's bad and we recognize it's 1.00

01:21:33.180 especially bad because these people that have nothing in common are coming in they're from a 0.95

01:21:37.220 different religion perpetuating terror on the native populace again you're conflating what 0.99

01:21:41.840 we're saying and you can jump in i don't want to keep going you're conflating that you think

01:21:45.240 we're arguing for mass migration. I never said you were. I know you're not. You're pointing to

01:21:49.680 these fringe examples that are awful. What's happening in Europe is terrible. What's happening

01:21:52.940 with the Muslims coming over there that do not assimilate to the culture is not good. That is 1.00

01:21:57.800 not what we're talking about. That is not the conversation that's being had. We are talking

01:22:00.660 about making hard lines where the scripture doesn't have any based on arbitrary standards

01:22:06.620 that we don't see played out in any sort of society throughout history up until 500 years ago.

01:22:11.460 I want to go to Avery, but I would just say what I'm arguing, I know you're not for mass

01:22:14.900 migration, but to say interracial marriage should be normative would have the same effect

01:22:18.980 long-term and short-term.

01:22:20.660 I didn't say it should be normative.

01:22:23.400 You're making the case that you're against it.

01:22:25.600 Yes, so I'm against it being normative because that would be a result.

01:22:28.400 Yeah, so what I'm saying is people can have preferences.

01:22:30.160 You want your kids to look white?

01:22:31.160 You want your kids to, you know, you're going to have a bunch of Mariah Carey's?

01:22:33.440 I'm not mad at you, okay?

01:22:34.920 If you want that, Joel, you want your daughter to, no one's mad at preference. 0.93

01:22:38.100 There's a lot of black folks that want their kids to be black.

01:22:39.840 No one's mad at preference.

01:22:41.260 And we haven't said you're mad at us for preference.

01:22:42.540 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:43.060 No, no, no.

01:22:43.360 I'm mad at you for preference.

01:22:44.040 yeah dang it the issue is when we take preference and we make it prescription that's the fundamental

01:22:51.560 flaw in your argument yeah but but real quick that's on both sides of the table just all right

01:22:56.420 so first the context the way that it came up against because you're right i use that word

01:23:00.520 against that's what started the whole well a lot and had you had you not said against joel i

01:23:04.540 wouldn't have said anything bro yeah it's my preference so let me so you crashed out you 0.80

01:23:08.580 crashed out by saying against oh no i didn't crash you you called her retarded you crashed 0.98

01:23:12.200 out bro oh she is retarded okay did you crash out no okay the average woman on social media is 0.98

01:23:18.480 retarded okay well let's next time we'll have you come back and we'll debate that that thesis 0.99

01:23:22.360 okay i might agree with never mind so here's the point she um uh there was a tweet 0.94

01:23:31.400 inner under christian nationalism interracial marriage will merit capital punishment 0.86

01:23:36.320 she responds this woman who is behaving retardedly she responds um or somebody says i wish we could 0.85

01:23:44.320 elon would show us the light who liked this this tweet interracial marriage under christian 0.88

01:23:48.280 nationalism will receive the death sentence i wish elon would show us who likes it and then

01:23:53.160 she responds and says definitely joel weapon and i say nope and then she says are you and this is

01:24:00.980 verbatim. Are you for or against? So given those two choices, for encouraging, promoting, advancing,

01:24:08.860 or against, discouraging, not normative, given those two options, then yes, I would be more

01:24:17.160 against than I am for. But you could have just said, hey, my preference is this. Now, let me

01:24:23.300 just add this to the thing. You said that you will lock arms or you see brothers in Christ that think

01:24:27.660 it's a sin and a perpetual sin not a perpetual sin but it's a one-time sin but and just to be

01:24:32.540 clear but you would you would you call brothers in christ folks who think it should it is a crime

01:24:36.520 it should be punished by the death penalty would you call them brothers in christ it depends so

01:24:41.500 because you know when you were going back and forth with samuel say there was people actually

01:24:44.540 posting that and again i don't i don't want to assume these are your buddies people that i know

01:24:48.680 okay but they're saying hey there's always people posting this would be you know punishable by death

01:24:54.060 in a Christian nationalist nation. 0.99

01:24:55.840 Right.

01:24:56.080 No, I'm aware.

01:24:56.720 Yeah, there are guys who think that.

01:24:58.240 Are you brothers?

01:24:59.500 Those are your brothers in Christ.

01:25:00.660 The only guys that I have any kind of relationship with,

01:25:04.520 friendship with, even acquaintance, interaction with,

01:25:07.520 and partnering with in this mission,

01:25:10.040 and it is my mission to achieve Christian nationalism

01:25:12.180 here in these United States of America.

01:25:14.320 All the guys on my team would either be in our category.

01:25:17.900 It's not a sin at all, but it's not normative.

01:25:20.400 It shouldn't be encouraged at the macro level,

01:25:22.820 But it's not a sin

01:25:24.140 It is permissible

01:25:24.900 Or they would hold the view

01:25:26.380 It is a sin 0.52

01:25:27.400 Likened to unbiblical divorce 0.96

01:25:30.380 And then remarriage 0.99

01:25:31.580 So the act is a sin 0.69

01:25:33.820 But once that new marriage has been established 0.96

01:25:36.460 We would say that is a valid marriage

01:25:37.500 Would you rebuke or condemn anyone who's pushing for 0.72

01:25:40.040 The death of people that are in an interracial marriage

01:25:42.560 I'm not going to police the internet 1.00

01:25:44.540 I'm not going to

01:25:45.560 So you're comfortable with it 0.99

01:25:48.020 These nuts, Groyper447

01:25:49.860 I'm not going to be in the chat

01:25:51.060 I'm not James White

01:25:53.680 He has time to do a dividing line

01:25:56.780 Over people with 15 followers on Twitter

01:25:58.800 And call them out

01:25:59.720 I don't have time for that

01:26:00.840 Would you categorically condemn it?

01:26:05.280 The idea that I should be executed 0.75

01:26:08.200 As a Christian nationalistic 0.88

01:26:09.360 You would condemn that 0.99

01:26:10.160 But that wasn't the original question

01:26:12.140 The first question was

01:26:13.640 Is that person a Christian?

01:26:15.920 That was your first question 1.00

01:26:16.960 So I would condemn it in the same way

01:26:19.120 i i would condemn uh sexual immorality any sin i i condemn any sin okay but not every sin makes

01:26:25.660 someone an unbeliever and so what you're asking is um whether or not i believe anybody could hold

01:26:32.120 that position and still be regenerate yeah i actually i said if you would call him a brother

01:26:36.820 in christ but that's what he's yeah regenerate brother in christ i i feel like that's that's

01:26:40.420 pretty pretty much the same and so that's why i was hesitant let the record stay i wasn't hesitant

01:26:44.840 because I'm trying to carve out allowances.

01:26:47.740 I meant condemning the mindset.

01:26:49.500 Yes, I would say, brother, that's not helpful.

01:26:53.100 I think that's immoral.

01:26:55.200 I don't support that.

01:26:56.180 I don't think you should be saying that.

01:26:58.280 But would I say for sure, that person who just said that is not a Christian.

01:27:03.200 I, the Protestant Pope, have ruled. 0.84

01:27:05.060 No, that's fair. 0.87

01:27:05.800 Go ahead.

01:27:06.120 That's what I'm saying.

01:27:07.160 No, I want to get into some of the scriptural things that we were talking about.

01:27:11.540 Because, again, we were talking about God's normative original design 0.57

01:27:18.040 Whether or not interracial marriages goes against that

01:27:23.520 So I would like to hear a scriptural basis for what God's original design is

01:27:30.020 Do we have a verse that tells us, you know

01:27:32.840 That's a great question

01:27:33.880 So here's how I respond

01:27:35.880 Are you pro-polygamy?

01:27:38.820 Am I pro-polygamy? No, I'm not

01:27:40.160 No

01:27:40.660 would you would you be against yeah i'm against that strong of language yeah he would say against

01:27:46.420 who says against oh i i do um so so you would say against now i love the scriptures that you brought

01:27:52.680 up because it's perfect for our argument so you said solomon for instance he had many wives and

01:27:57.380 many concubines and you were emphasizing and rightly so i agree with your argument that the

01:28:01.920 big problem with solomon and all these wives was that they were foreign and had a different skin 0.53

01:28:06.600 coat. No, they worshiped foreign gods, and they turned his heart away. The big problem that made 0.93

01:28:12.280 it actually sinful in the case of Solomon was that he was not, even as king, permitted to marry

01:28:18.240 foreign wives who were pagans who worshiped foreign gods. So it was a spiritual problem,

01:28:22.720 a spiritual adultery, and it ultimately turned his heart away. But here's the point. So we could

01:28:28.800 point to, for instance, now going to like Ezra, right? Because then you like, there's a polygamous 1.00

01:28:33.640 example, but then you gave interracial examples, Ezra 9, Ezra 10, Nehemiah 13, and what you were

01:28:39.460 saying is, look, it's not about the fact that they're a different race, it's the fact, right,

01:28:43.440 what is actually being condemned here, and you did a good job, I agree with you, what's really 1.00

01:28:47.160 being condemned here is that these people of a foreign race, they're not Christian, they worship 1.00

01:28:52.100 foreign gods, it's their spiritual idolatry, so this is what I would say, if we're logical, if 1.00

01:28:58.480 we're being consistent we can say um well what's expressly condemned in scripture is um marrying 0.97

01:29:05.660 someone of another race only in the instance that they actually are worshiping a false god it's

01:29:11.140 idolatry marrying not in the lord marrying someone who's not a christian so then i would use that and 0.62

01:29:16.460 i can make the same argument say polygamy is permissible because only what's condemned in

01:29:22.700 there's no scripture that condemns polygamy inherently outright but what's condemned is

01:29:27.880 someone like solomon who in his many marriages that's not inherently condemned what's specifically

01:29:32.980 condemned is that some of those marriages in his case many of them were to foreign wives who

01:29:37.580 worship foreign gods so i would use that same logic and i would say just like i said um interracial

01:29:43.300 marriage is biblically permissible but that it generally goes against god's ordinary or normative

01:29:50.520 design for cultures peoples and nations i could say the same thing you could say the same thing

01:29:54.760 about polygamy is biblically permissible but it ordinarily goes against right so if i'm in a

01:30:01.760 muslim nation a guy comes to the lord i'm not going to tell him if he has five wives that he 0.76

01:30:05.740 has to divorce four of them what i will tell him per scripture right we're getting to something

01:30:09.840 that is explicit in scripture per first uh timothy chapter three titus chapter one i'll say i'm sorry

01:30:16.120 you can't be an elder yeah so there must be but i actually would not say polygamy is inherently

01:30:21.600 sinful yeah so so so here is the thing if so we're categorizing polygamy as the exception to the rule

01:30:27.660 in the same way that we're categorizing interracial marriage as the exception to the rule the issue

01:30:31.780 with this joe is when you look at the new testament scripture there are prescriptions for someone in

01:30:36.960 leadership yes but those are prescriptions for anybody that's an elder deacon that's how all

01:30:40.480 christians should be should be must be yes yes and so they should be one woman men so now what 0.54

01:30:45.640 you're doing is with polygamy it is permitted but then it's clearly clarified in the new testament 0.88

01:30:50.780 that this is not a prescription, this is not okay, because we see evidence of that. The same thing

01:30:55.460 for Rahab's lying. We're not going to say, well, lying is permitted because Rahab lied, and therefore

01:30:59.760 lying. No, no, no. We're going to see that, generally speaking, Old and New Testament, there's

01:31:03.220 prohibitions against lying, so we see something that's here. You don't then do that. So the

01:31:07.640 epistles would have to then be clear, in the same way they're clear about polygamy, to not allow

01:31:12.740 mixed race or mixed ethnic or whatever you want to call it, marriage. We don't see that when he's

01:31:18.160 writing to mixed ethnic churches absolutely the scripture would have to be clear in its

01:31:22.640 condemnation of interracial marriage if we were to take a position of saying that it's sin 0.99

01:31:26.400 yeah fortunately we don't no no in saying that's against against god's design because polygamy is

01:31:31.600 against god's design and we see but the scripture is not standard of prescription for polygamy not

01:31:36.140 being within god's design but the scripture does not ever condemn polygamy it doesn't have to and

01:31:40.480 yet you would say that because it prescribes the right way goes against the normative design yes

01:31:43.840 Because it prescribes

01:31:44.940 So when it says that an elder 0.99

01:31:47.880 Should be a man of one wife 0.98

01:31:50.100 You're saying

01:31:52.000 That that's not a

01:31:53.020 Direct, explicit

01:31:55.060 Standard that the Bible is setting

01:31:58.080 That it's supposed to be

01:31:59.600 For all believers 0.53

01:32:00.700 I'm saying that that is a standard that is reserved for elders

01:32:03.720 An elder must be

01:32:04.760 Here's another example 1.00

01:32:05.840 You know you're going to attract a lot of polygamists at your church after this 0.85

01:32:08.500 Because there's a growing movement of polygamists

01:32:10.360 Yeah, there is a growing movement

01:32:11.720 What's that verse about?

01:32:12.620 And I've engaged with those people.

01:32:14.120 What, 1 Timothy 3?

01:32:15.200 1 Timothy 3 and Titus.

01:32:17.420 Here's another one that we could use,

01:32:19.280 and we can put it in the same mold that we're using, right?

01:32:21.800 The same thesis statement, our prompt for today's debate.

01:32:24.700 You can do it with interracial marriage. 0.92

01:32:26.100 You can do it with polygamy. 0.98

01:32:26.960 Here's another one, slavery. 1.00

01:32:28.560 Do you think that slavery is good, positive, should be promoted,

01:32:31.940 should be encouraged, that you are for slavery,

01:32:34.300 that it should be normative?

01:32:35.400 Well, it depends on the type of slavery we're talking about.

01:32:38.100 If we're talking about the biblical slavery that was indentured servitude, I think that that is fine.

01:32:43.840 You can give yourself to someone and say, hey, I will give my service to you in exchange for living, food, and stuff like that. 0.96

01:32:52.440 I think that that's okay. 0.88

01:32:54.540 When it comes to chattel slavery, I think that that is expressly condemned in Scripture.

01:32:58.880 Exodus 21, 16 says if a man steals somebody from—

01:33:02.060 Man's stealing.

01:33:03.060 Punishable by death. 0.99

01:33:03.860 Punishable by death.

01:33:04.220 That said, though, real quick, one of the things that you use some of the verses to say you shouldn't treat the foreigner, right, the sojourner, any different.

01:33:11.400 But there are other passages of Scripture that say you could charge interest to a foreigner, right?

01:33:16.760 So you have a disposition of hospitality towards a foreigner, and yet you could charge him interest on a loan, but you cannot charge your brother interest.

01:33:26.680 Another thing in terms of indentured servanthood, that particularly pertained to Israel, to fellow Israelites.

01:33:34.220 You could not own them indefinitely.

01:33:36.820 There was a limit of terms, these kinds of things,

01:33:39.900 whereas the slavery that was permitted in the Old Testament

01:33:42.740 for a non-Hebrew brother owning someone who was a foreigner from a different nation,

01:33:48.480 it actually allowed for longer terms of slavery, those kinds of things.

01:33:52.920 So my question is, would you want that to be normative?

01:33:57.560 Because God allows for it, but I would argue that it shouldn't be normative.

01:34:01.500 I am a not normative polygamy guy.

01:34:04.220 I'm a not-normative slavery guy.

01:34:05.960 I want the record to clearly state.

01:34:08.520 Joel thinks ordinarily that slavery goes against God's normative design.

01:34:13.560 Ordinarily, polygamy goes against God's normative design.

01:34:17.500 Okay, so I want to get back to that, if you mind holding that off,

01:34:20.800 because I wanted to talk about the verse about the elder,

01:34:22.820 and then we could jump right back to the example.

01:34:24.740 Is that okay?

01:34:25.360 Yeah.

01:34:25.660 So it says here that an overseer then must be above reproach.

01:34:32.920 Now, I want to stop here.

01:34:33.840 would you agree that that would go for all believers,

01:34:37.260 that all believers should be above reproach?

01:34:39.220 All believers should strive to be above reproach, yeah.

01:34:41.620 Okay.

01:34:42.300 So all believers should strive to be above reproach,

01:34:45.680 which means, and it kind of breaks down what that means,

01:34:48.660 that the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable,

01:34:53.980 able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, whatever that word means,

01:34:59.780 um but considerate peace peaceable free from the love of money um leading his own household well

01:35:06.640 having his children's mission with all with all dignity um so would you say that these are these

01:35:13.060 would be general uh christ-like values that every believer should hold to and strive to have so no

01:35:20.040 not it i don't believe that the list in first timothy three ortonus one is an exhaustive list

01:35:24.940 just like the fruit of the spirit in galatians i don't believe is exhaustive um i don't believe

01:35:28.920 there's only nine manifestations of the spirit love right right it's not an exhaustive list

01:35:33.280 so number one i don't believe the qualifications are exhaustive and number two um i don't believe

01:35:38.020 that all the qualifications are necessarily um put forward as moral standards moral standards

01:35:44.460 that all men all men should be all christian men should be but an elder must be i would say that

01:35:50.100 that's generally true about most of the things that paul lists uh or that he names in this list

01:35:55.440 of qualifications. But I don't feel like there's a way to definitively say that every single one

01:36:00.800 of them exhaustively falls in the mind of the spirit, inspiring the apostle Paul in writing

01:36:07.000 this. It could be that he's saying, well, in the case of a man who is an elder, the reason why he

01:36:12.220 should have one wife is because it is permissible to have multiple wives, but it best displays the

01:36:20.020 marriage between Christ and the church and Christ having one bride, or also just practically

01:36:24.440 speaking, if he's going to care for the house of God, in a sense, he's married to the church,

01:36:29.320 not in the ultimate sense that Christ is married to the church, but he's taking the church as

01:36:34.680 kind of a friend of the bridegroom and caring for her diligently and all these things, for him to

01:36:40.620 have on top of those immense duties and responsibilities to the church, to have

01:36:44.420 also multiple wives that he needs to care for, also simply practically imprudent. So no, I don't

01:36:52.300 think that you can look at that and say every single one of these equally or even inclusively

01:36:57.560 are should be for christian men so term pugnacious also too in the text it's closer to like a brawler

01:37:04.040 so some of the translations render it like striving or argumentative okay what it most closely means

01:37:09.180 is someone who kind of just punches his way out of things but you can imagine a christian who is in

01:37:13.320 the military for example he's not qualified to be an elder he's not reserved for that calling

01:37:18.020 But he himself, that man gets in there, he establishes order.

01:37:22.320 Same thing, hey, this man was Muslim, he converted, he has four wives. 0.54

01:37:25.660 So I think there's multiple qualifications in there that are not necessarily the moral standard that's upheld,

01:37:31.780 but for this specific office, an overseer and a caretaker of Christ's sheep,

01:37:36.020 it says, and this one, some may have it, and that's understandable, but this one he can't have.

01:37:39.940 So you don't think that it's describing a moral character of an overseer?

01:37:44.760 like these are moral characteristics that he should uphold uh yeah i like i just said i think

01:37:50.520 that um it it is describing that that list is um those those qualifications i would say that

01:37:57.300 the vast majority of them are pointing towards moral indicators character character but i don't

01:38:03.300 think it's only character i i i would agree so i would i would agree that that's it's included

01:38:08.200 and that's the big picture of it so i'm i'm asking when in regards to the character that

01:38:13.160 it's presenting should christians strive to be uh what this is describing overseer should be

01:38:19.880 um again like i said i think that um to to say that to steamroll the list and to say that they're

01:38:26.980 all exactly the same they're all uh they're all moral um goals to be strived after i i think is

01:38:33.320 you can't really prove that so which one of these would you say is not a moral goal to be to strive

01:38:39.960 after the husband of one wife temperate sensible respectable hospitable uh able to teach not

01:38:45.700 addicted to wine or pugnacious considerate well able to teach for instance so i think every man

01:38:50.760 should pursue knowledge of christ knowledge of the word as much as he's able to but there are

01:38:55.520 some men who simply will not have the the the mental capacity to be able to teach others and

01:39:01.320 it doesn't mean that they're in a moral failure it doesn't mean that they that they're in sin

01:39:05.360 because they're not qualified.

01:39:07.420 Just a skill they don't have.

01:39:08.860 Yeah, right.

01:39:09.460 But would you agree that every man should at least strive

01:39:12.360 to be a teacher of their household?

01:39:15.160 Yeah, every man should be a resident theologian

01:39:17.600 if he's a married man.

01:39:18.760 Yeah.

01:39:19.200 So notice, like, and that's...

01:39:21.680 To the best of his ability.

01:39:22.580 That's going to vary greatly.

01:39:23.780 Of course.

01:39:24.560 So he's not going to be the best, maybe,

01:39:26.280 but he should strive to be able...

01:39:28.140 He ain't going to be no Joe Webber.

01:39:28.640 Yeah, he ain't going to be no Joe Webber.

01:39:30.120 But he can strive to be a teacher in his household, right?

01:39:33.340 And that is him upholding the moral character as the man and the head of the household that God has ordained him to be.

01:39:39.440 Right.

01:39:39.700 Okay.

01:39:40.040 So we're going through these.

01:39:42.320 All of these are moral characteristics that God requires all of us to have, especially as men.

01:39:50.580 He requires all of us to, you know, he doesn't demand it like you have to be the best in every category.

01:39:56.560 But these are things that every Christian ought to exemplify, especially Christian men with their household, with their peers, whatever. 0.84

01:40:04.480 And so I would say that being the husband of one wife is included in that category, that that exemplifies a moral character.

01:40:12.360 Should every Christian ought to be against slavery? 0.52

01:40:16.580 You're talking about chattel slavery?

01:40:18.900 Well, I think there's a lot of distance, just for the record.

01:40:22.400 I'm against chattel slavery. 0.97

01:40:23.620 Let the record stay. 1.00

01:40:24.260 But I think there's a lot of distance in between black people kidnapping and man-stealing black people 0.99

01:40:31.740 and then lining them up on the coast and selling them to white people and some Jews 1.00

01:40:36.580 and then transporting them and they're slaves for life and their children are slaves 0.82

01:40:41.480 and separating families and those kinds of things.

01:40:45.360 There's a lot of difference between that, if we're using that as chattel slavery,

01:40:49.420 and a six-year indentured servanthood.

01:40:51.800 right so there's a lot of there's a lot of distance so i agree what about another form

01:40:57.020 of slavery which i believe was permissible for the israelites that the bible teaches

01:41:01.020 when it came to not owning their own hebrew brother but owning someone from a foreign nation

01:41:05.760 who was in their their camp yeah go ahead yeah go ahead i would just say scripture has to

01:41:12.060 interpret scripture i would say we see polygamy we see negative descriptions of polygamy and then 0.70

01:41:17.120 we see one woman man. We see slavery. We see the slave Bible, which was what was given to

01:41:24.620 African-Americans, removing the story of Exodus, removing a lot of passages. And then we see 0.63

01:41:29.260 Philman, which, Philman, I think I said that right, chapter one, Paul is saying, if you consider me a

01:41:33.920 partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. And Paul is writing to release a slave that was a

01:41:39.980 brother in Christ, right? So what do we see? We see a narrative of slavery in Egypt, and then we

01:41:46.280 see a New Testament recontextualization of slavery, of polygamy, of lying. You fill in a

01:41:52.360 thing, these little mixed areas that I think are incoherent. We see these things clarified 1.00

01:41:56.780 in the New Testament scriptures. But we also see the same Paul in Ephesians,

01:42:00.640 who doesn't say, masters, release your slaves, but tells masters to rule righteously over their

01:42:05.300 slaves. We also see that. Yeah, we see that. So again, what do we mean by slaves? You were

01:42:10.980 talking about a very specific type of slavery. I responded to the broader context around slavery.

01:42:15.900 with this book, which again, slave Bible that was given to black folks took out a lot of

01:42:20.860 these passages intentionally so folks wouldn't be fully aware of these things. 0.53

01:42:24.600 So I think that this entire premise of slavery, it doesn't square up because you're talking

01:42:30.140 about different types of slavery and all this sort of stuff.

01:42:31.940 And again, we're saying there's enough in here, in the New Testament, to say it seems

01:42:36.200 like this is generally against the type of chattel slavery we've seen and a lot of the

01:42:41.420 folks that fought for the abolishing of slavery were Christian.

01:42:45.380 And so if you're going to put a restriction on interracial marriage,

01:42:50.680 interethnic marriage, whatever you want to call it,

01:42:52.800 you have to make this case from the scripture, Joel,

01:42:54.900 and you just haven't been able to do that, brother.

01:42:56.520 Not New Testament, not Old Testament.

01:42:57.760 I would just say that with slavery, again, I'm saying it shouldn't be normative.

01:43:02.480 I am not pro-slavery, so I don't think that it should be encouraged, promoted,

01:43:06.840 those kinds of things. 0.98

01:43:08.440 But I am saying that it is biblically permissible.

01:43:11.760 It is.

01:43:11.880 Which Avery already granted.

01:43:13.800 Now, same thing. 1.00

01:43:14.720 Let's apply it to interracial marriage.

01:43:16.300 So you're saying, well, interracial marriage, because you said, well, in the case of slavery,

01:43:19.620 there's these bad examples.

01:43:20.840 Or you said polygamy.

01:43:22.040 There's a lot of the polygamous cases.

01:43:23.800 There's descriptive passages, and then there's New Testament prescriptive passages saying

01:43:27.780 one woman, man.

01:43:29.240 We don't have anything like that for inter-ethnic marriage. 1.00

01:43:31.780 Not just that. 0.99

01:43:32.840 Not just for an elder.

01:43:33.620 You conceded that that's good moral character for everyone to strive to.

01:43:35.780 No, I did not concede that.

01:43:36.960 What?

01:43:37.460 I did not concede that.

01:43:38.700 Joe.

01:43:39.280 Come on.

01:43:40.120 I worked hard for that, man.

01:43:41.640 I said multiple times

01:43:46.040 I don't believe it's an exhaustive list

01:43:47.500 and no I don't believe that every single one

01:43:49.540 of the qualifications listed there

01:43:51.360 is a should be

01:43:51.980 I believe that on the whole

01:43:53.240 that many of those qualifications

01:43:55.760 do refer to character

01:43:58.340 good Christian character

01:43:59.540 and therefore an elder must be 0.96

01:44:01.280 and a Christian man should be 1.00

01:44:02.700 I can't let you have this 1.00

01:44:03.600 I'm sorry

01:44:04.020 Joe

01:44:04.820 so every man has to be able to teach

01:44:06.860 if he needs every other qualification

01:44:08.280 you should strive

01:44:09.180 of your household

01:44:10.440 He needs to come home from his construction job with four kids, and at night, he needs

01:44:19.160 to be learning to teach.

01:44:20.420 If all of those are good moral character, and he has every other one, and that is the 0.99

01:44:23.460 last one, and he is a bubbling idiot when he gets up in front of people, then if those 0.98

01:44:26.900 are all moral qualifications, then he would need to apply himself to develop that moral 0.99

01:44:31.520 character, to which you would say he's not made to teach.

01:44:33.800 What is a man's priority?

01:44:35.180 Is it his family or his construction job?

01:44:37.400 Well, the construction job is a means to feeding his family.

01:44:39.980 That's not what I asked.

01:44:41.900 Yeah, you posed a false dichotomy between those two things.

01:44:45.320 No, he brought this up.

01:44:46.640 One is a means to fulfilling his duties for the other.

01:44:49.740 Yeah, they're not in conflict.

01:44:50.900 They're not in conflict.

01:44:51.620 So I didn't ask that.

01:44:52.220 Family and then the job.

01:44:54.200 There's a hierarchy of family.

01:44:55.660 So which is the priority?

01:44:58.160 Is it your family or is it your job?

01:45:02.000 It's not an or.

01:45:03.060 It is.

01:45:03.560 No, it's not.

01:45:04.280 So is a man in sin, if he spends 10 hours, five days a week at work,

01:45:08.440 but only an average of two to three hours with his children.

01:45:12.280 Which one's the priority?

01:45:13.200 If his family is suffering, he needs to figure out to pivot and learn to do something else.

01:45:17.760 The vast majority of men throughout history had to work long days, hard labor to provide for their family.

01:45:24.700 Were they all in sin?

01:45:25.540 They spent more time at work than they did with their children.

01:45:28.380 Let me ask this, okay?

01:45:29.860 Let's switch the roles a little bit.

01:45:31.700 Let's say at work, he's doing just fine.

01:45:34.660 Like his hours and everything, his funds is good enough to meet the means.

01:45:38.480 They're doing just fine.

01:45:39.640 However, he's choosing to stay at work even more when he doesn't have to and not pouring into his family.

01:45:46.220 Is he in sin then?

01:45:47.520 That's different.

01:45:48.720 I know.

01:45:49.180 That's different.

01:45:49.780 So, okay.

01:45:50.360 So how, why is that different though?

01:45:52.960 Because we agree with that, but let's break that down.

01:45:54.920 Because then the job is no longer, now it actually is a dichotomy, not a false one.

01:45:58.380 The job is no longer a means to serving and providing for his family.

01:46:02.020 but now he's going beyond

01:46:03.880 the job has served its means

01:46:05.880 for the family and now I'm just staying

01:46:07.900 for the fun of it. It's three hours at home, nope

01:46:09.800 I'm staying three hours more at work baby

01:46:11.480 for no extra pay

01:46:13.180 So will we agree that a man who

01:46:15.920 he's working hard

01:46:17.180 making ends meet

01:46:19.300 so he's doing that

01:46:21.860 and also when he comes

01:46:23.920 home he should be able

01:46:26.040 to spiritually guide the family

01:46:28.020 That's his job

01:46:30.280 Are you the priest of your home or you're not?

01:46:31.820 i don't care if you are construction i don't care if you stream are you the priest and the

01:46:35.600 pastor of your home you are positionally every husband slash father is the priest so he ought

01:46:40.660 to be able to teach office by office not every man so every man by office formally is in that

01:46:46.860 position as pastor of his home priest of his home however not every man is inherently in sin

01:46:52.780 with a moral culpability if he's not particularly good in his ability to theologically teach

01:46:59.420 I agree. We already did this. So we're not talking about skill level. We're talking about the

01:47:06.060 striving of achieving this character that God has laid out for the man of the household.

01:47:12.760 So if he doesn't have the skill to teach, right? Let's say he's not even a great speaker like that,

01:47:17.340 but he should strive to be doctrinally and theologically sound and guide his family

01:47:22.780 in God's character and in God's teachings and His Word, right?

01:47:28.540 For thousands of years, the church was sustained by men who couldn't read 0.95

01:47:32.100 and couldn't write prior to the Reformation, who went to church on Sunday. 0.99

01:47:35.460 They had no Bible.

01:47:36.260 They had no doctrine.

01:47:37.280 They were sustained by the preaching of the Word on Sunday.

01:47:38.980 So we can't take something that is required of elders able to teach

01:47:42.340 and say all men across all times and all contexts must possess this quality

01:47:46.320 as a moral character.

01:47:47.140 In the same way with polygamy, because it's not condemned elsewhere

01:47:50.240 in the new testament yeah we would also say okay uh ultimately this one uh you shouldn't willingly

01:47:55.180 enter it in america it's even illegal so contextually this is against the law obey the

01:47:59.480 authorities but we can't go so far as to say and here's a new testament verse condemning all

01:48:03.980 occasions no matter what real quick polygamy is not condemned anywhere in the in the new testament

01:48:09.240 and that's the point that i'm trying to make the point that i'm trying to make is that you guys are

01:48:13.360 saying well the burden of proof is on you joel and company um because there's no clear condemnation

01:48:19.400 passages of interracial marriage, right? And so I'm saying, so then there's no clear condemnation

01:48:26.660 passages in the Old or New Testament of polygamy. So I feel like your position is that you guys,

01:48:32.820 you're not against, I'm saying generally against, and you're like, we're generally for, right? 0.52

01:48:38.300 That's the only other option when it comes to interracial marriage. Well, I think you have to 1.00

01:48:42.640 apply that, and you're saying the reason you take your position is because the burden of proof is

01:48:46.360 on us there's no clear condemnation of interracial marriage in the new testament or the old testament

01:48:50.340 well there's also no clear condemnation of polygamy in the old testament or the new testament

01:48:54.160 so you should be consistent and take the same position right that you're taking on interracial

01:48:58.500 marriage saying we're generally four i think you should generally be for polygamy there's positive

01:49:02.700 examples abraham david i mean i know what created tension but like multiple men had these multiple

01:49:07.400 wives and it just and they were wrong yeah but if we're giving positive examples think about this

01:49:12.100 in terms of numbers not just not just instances in scripture like a chapter right but think of

01:49:16.780 just raw numeric numbers okay so there are positive examples ruth right moses's wife rahab

01:49:23.660 but you brought up ezra chapter 9 and 10 and nehemiah 13 and that case is like well it's

01:49:29.680 only one case over here we have ruth we have rahab we have moses's three cases okay but this

01:49:34.880 one case over here was thousands of women and children being sent away i think it was like

01:49:40.160 150 it wasn't thousand it was it was way less than that joel it's okay it's a lot okay it's a

01:49:45.960 lot of the populations tens of thousands in that population i want to not thousands i want to

01:49:49.380 respond to this really quick man because this this i feel like you guys are missing our point

01:49:53.520 it's not simply that um the the scripture doesn't uh explicitly or directly condemn interracial

01:50:00.420 marriage and so therefore and see we have examples so therefore this doesn't go against god no we

01:50:05.700 have explicit examples we have explicit verses that go that that support interracial marriage or

01:50:12.760 uh like like for example we gave the verse um where in first corinthians 7 where it says that

01:50:18.880 a woman can marry whoever she wants and the only stipulation is that as long as it's in the lord

01:50:25.680 and he's writing to a mixed ethnic church and so that's what can i can't wait just let me say this 0.91

01:50:30.900 I'll shut up, I promise. 0.66

01:50:33.080 And in that chapter, you have, in 1 Corinthians 7,

01:50:36.940 it's saying that every man should have his own wife, singular,

01:50:40.260 and every woman should have her own husband, singular. 0.74

01:50:42.340 That's in verse 2 and 3. 0.96

01:50:43.880 So we're having explicit verses, Deuteronomy 17, 17,

01:50:47.560 that a king should not have many wives, right?

01:50:50.300 So we got Old Testament.

01:50:51.640 We got the New Testament that's given different passages.

01:50:55.420 This is why a man leaves his mother and father,

01:50:58.580 please to his wife, singular, and the two

01:51:00.780 shall be one flesh. We have these

01:51:02.800 verses that's supporting that.

01:51:04.740 This is why

01:51:05.300 and that goes against 0.70

01:51:07.620 a husband of one wife, you know, the overseer of whatever

01:51:10.720 and every Christian should reflect this.

01:51:13.080 This is our point where we have

01:51:14.820 verses that

01:51:16.060 clearly show what we're saying.

01:51:18.680 There's not a single verse that shows

01:51:20.800 what you guys are saying.

01:51:22.420 Not even close in the New Testament.

01:51:24.800 Oh!

01:51:24.980 I want to

01:51:26.420 We can stay on this topic

01:51:29.520 Of I think 1 Corinthians 7

01:51:31.940 Mary as in the Lord

01:51:32.820 I have a question for you 1.00

01:51:34.240 Which is would you discourage

01:51:37.040 Or encourage your daughter 0.97

01:51:38.720 To marry when she's let's say

01:51:41.240 18, 20 0.90

01:51:41.980 Pick some age 0.90

01:51:43.900 To marry a 60 year old man 0.89

01:51:46.760 A 60 year old man? 1.00

01:51:48.500 Yeah 1.00

01:51:48.800 There's no standard in scripture for it

01:51:51.740 She's free to marry anyone in the Lord

01:51:54.160 You're absolutely right. I wouldn't say that she's wrong

01:51:56.600 in doing that.

01:51:57.860 Would you discourage her or encourage her?

01:51:59.960 I would discourage that based on my

01:52:01.740 no objective basis, just my preference.

01:52:04.940 Well no, natural law has revealed

01:52:06.340 that that pairing is unsuited.

01:52:07.900 That it's a man so far advanced in experience

01:52:09.980 and all these different things and a girl so young 0.92

01:52:12.460 that you would

01:52:13.780 What's your

01:52:15.760 you said based on your preference, what's your preference based on?

01:52:18.580 So I would think that

01:52:20.340 normally a 60 year old

01:52:22.600 and a 25-year-old wouldn't really have much in common.

01:52:25.680 They wouldn't really be...

01:52:26.240 Normally?

01:52:27.280 One might say ordinarily.

01:52:29.100 Sure, yeah.

01:52:30.060 But notice this.

01:52:31.580 Notice I'm not saying that this necessarily goes against God's design

01:52:35.680 because this is my own preference.

01:52:38.060 I don't have a scripture backing up what I'm saying.

01:52:40.180 So I could, if she insists, I can't say,

01:52:42.200 well, daughter, you're going against God's natural normative design.

01:52:44.800 I can't say that.

01:52:45.680 But we're Christians.

01:52:46.680 You can.

01:52:47.300 You can.

01:52:48.220 Because God has written two books, not merely one.

01:52:50.400 He has special revelation, that which is inscripturated, but we also have natural

01:52:54.540 revelation. God has given us reason. He has not made us witless beast. He has made us intelligent.

01:53:01.240 We're able to exercise rationale. And we know that there are, it's not mere preference. It's not

01:53:06.880 arbitrary. It's not capricious. We know that there is actually a natural, logical reason why we would

01:53:12.980 not encourage our 18-year-old daughter to marry a 60-year-old man, even if he's Christian. We would 1.00

01:53:18.800 actually discourage we would discourage it based on reason based on natural law we shouldn't be

01:53:23.680 arbitrary as christians yeah so so so so the the dude that coined all of this thomas aquinas

01:53:32.040 this is what he said difference of race or nation does not impede marriage for such difference does

01:53:38.320 not belong to the law of nature so the guy that you're quoting natural law natural this you know

01:53:43.060 maybe there's some distinction in theomony and your version of natural law but the guy that

01:53:46.900 coined it. Thomas Aquinas made no reservations on this.

01:53:49.040 And I can go quote after quote. We have

01:53:50.700 Martin Luther, marriage is a worldly

01:53:52.920 thing. Christians are free to marry

01:53:55.020 wherever there is faith and love.

01:53:56.920 And I can give you a ton of quotes from

01:53:58.480 churches. Aquinas over and over again also emphasized

01:54:00.940 that similarity was

01:54:02.920 the bedrock of

01:54:04.460 societal organization. So I

01:54:06.580 agree that he said that. Similarly, same

01:54:09.160 city, same

01:54:10.800 background, same

01:54:12.720 socioeconomic experience, same

01:54:14.900 faith in Jesus as a primary

01:54:16.600 priority they look the same as well those basis no no no you snuck that in no one said anything

01:54:21.820 said they have to look the same not that they have to look the same but all of these things

01:54:27.180 as a constellation form a shared unity one of the reasons and you can see this in different studies

01:54:32.240 about when kids are adopted one of the reasons that i'm so drawn to my children i love them

01:54:36.960 is there's a similarity to me in them that i see in them reflection of my parents and you and your

01:54:42.400 kids absolutely out but at scale bode bacham even said this people asked him do you love your

01:54:48.340 natural biological children which he had two more than your adopted seven boys and he said no i don't

01:54:53.640 love my natural born children more he said but i have to work harder okay so intentional you just

01:54:59.380 conflated adopted because i don't have biological children my children are biologically mine your

01:55:04.620 children are biologically yours they don't look exactly like you they look more white but you

01:55:08.480 still love them but zoom out at the corporate level and with a people that are bound together

01:55:13.560 by all these different things we share and appearance and semblance and the shared identity

01:55:18.740 is one of those things that so the same guy that said that we would have some distinctions or

01:55:23.400 nuances you know we we distinguish as a turritin would kind of say in his institutes we distinguish

01:55:27.940 with that quote that aquinas has on marriage and nature we would say he's also the one that said

01:55:32.180 very much so a people that are similar in all these ways is the bedrock of a people that have

01:55:37.140 cohesion, that love their land, that love the fathers that are patriotic. So I don't think

01:55:42.000 he's just full-blown saying flat. You could have cohesion without looking the same, and no one's

01:55:45.340 talking about flat, and no one's talking about... You can. You can. You can have cohesion without

01:55:49.180 looking the same. Yes, you can. But at a certain level, if all of a sudden you, through interracial

01:55:53.900 marriage, over time, there's just a bunch of people that share this space, and then because

01:55:58.380 these have a different group of ancestors, and these have married into the peoples that

01:56:02.080 immigrated from the north, you would start to end up with disparity in history. But you have that,

01:56:07.000 You have that in Europe, dude.

01:56:08.360 You have different disparities.

01:56:09.200 That's part of the problem. 0.77

01:56:10.400 It's part of the problem that white people, people you would generalize as white, all 0.77

01:56:14.200 have disparities within their own ethnic backgrounds and their own DNA. 0.64

01:56:17.640 Well, I was thinking mostly of third world immigration that people have come in that 0.96

01:56:22.020 look very much so different. 0.76

01:56:22.700 I'm just saying there's disparities and differences within white people.

01:56:25.240 There's disparity in different... 0.62

01:56:26.100 There's tribes in Africa where everyone's super tall, and there's tribes in Africa where

01:56:29.360 everyone's super short.

01:56:30.060 There's disparities amongst the same race.

01:56:32.220 Yes.

01:56:32.420 I understand that there is a big argument that's often made that there's more variation within the group than there is between the group.

01:56:39.880 But I just would simply say that it defeats common sense.

01:56:42.220 And also we see the French, generally, they've developed everything characteristic of themselves. 0.98

01:56:47.840 And it's over and against and unique from the Germans that are right there and the English that are above them. 0.96

01:56:51.780 All these peoples eventually develop their own distinct identity. 0.97

01:56:55.540 Yeah, but you're conflating all of them as the same race. 0.71

01:56:59.200 That's the issue. 1.00

01:56:59.900 They all are, the JFF, Europeans. 1.00

01:57:02.520 But they're all different, and they have very little in common. 1.00

01:57:04.700 Yeah, different ethnicities. 1.00

01:57:06.000 Yes, different ethnicities. 0.99

01:57:07.360 And intermacial marriage at scale would destroy those differences. 0.67

01:57:09.980 So you're against a German dude and a French girl getting married. 0.67

01:57:13.480 At scale is what I'm talking about.

01:57:15.500 At scale. 0.99

01:57:15.600 So if that happened, yeah, you would have kind of a French, German.

01:57:19.540 They would lose the flags and the language.

01:57:22.860 But what is your, have you guys done your ancestry, your 23andMe?

01:57:25.780 What is your guys' DNA?

01:57:26.900 I can trace my family line all the way back on my dad's side to about the 1200s in Britain

01:57:31.880 and then mostly German on my mom's side.

01:57:33.580 So you're mixed, dude.

01:57:34.720 Based on your arbitrary standard of saying German and British, you're mixed.

01:57:37.720 In a process called ethnogenesis, in which the British and the Germans came to the United

01:57:41.300 States and formed a new ethnicity under the hardship, under the pioneer conditions of

01:57:46.640 the American frontier.

01:57:48.000 Yes, that was called ethnogenesis, and it took the European peoples.

01:57:51.000 John Jay talks about this. 0.52

01:57:52.120 So they spread out, and they separate, and then they come back together.

01:57:55.120 But notice the difference.

01:57:55.780 they didn't mix all of there, that the Irish crossed over to Germany and the English came

01:58:00.060 down to France. No, they came here to the frontier, and ethnogenesis, a new people, a new American race

01:58:05.780 is in the process of being formed. So I'm not mixed in the same way of, well, India came to

01:58:10.280 Ireland with millions and millions of people, and now they carry no characteristics of either. Red 0.95

01:58:14.260 hair is gone. No, I'm a offspring of a European ethnogenesis that came to America and settled it.

01:58:20.300 And that's all fine, man, but I just see Ephesians 2.15 that says, by setting aside in his flesh

01:58:25.200 the law, with its commands and regulations,

01:58:27.240 his purpose was to create in himself

01:58:28.920 one new humanity.

01:58:31.300 His what? His flesh. His purpose?

01:58:32.880 Yeah, his purpose. His purpose was

01:58:35.120 to create in himself one new

01:58:37.340 humanity out of the two,

01:58:39.200 thus making peace. So Jesus is going against

01:58:41.240 God's original design? No, that's just a category

01:58:43.300 error. What? We're not

01:58:45.040 talking about salvation, guys. We're not talking about

01:58:47.020 heavenly life. I didn't say anything about salvation. We're not talking about those things

01:58:49.100 which are spiritual and ultimate. We're talking about

01:58:51.160 temporal categories here that are

01:58:53.180 simple arbitrary categories everybody loves revelation chapter 7 verse 9 every tribe tongue

01:58:58.800 and nation it's going to be around it's going to be around right the the lamb worshiping him

01:59:04.460 together i guess what we love that too you will not have diversity in heaven if you mix everything

01:59:10.560 here on earth no one's arguing for mixing everything here on earth what if it's normative

01:59:14.660 if it's normative that's what happens you're saying it's not normative i'm saying people

01:59:18.520 can choose and have their preferences it doesn't go against god we're saying it doesn't go against

01:59:22.760 God's design. You're saying it does. I'm saying people can marry

01:59:24.800 whoever they want to. And if you want your 0.70

01:59:26.640 kids to look like you and grandkids and white babies, 1.00

01:59:29.000 I'm not mad at you at that. The issue 0.99

01:59:30.760 is when you go the extra mile and say, I'm

01:59:32.580 against. This is the Mont & Bailey

01:59:34.640 fallacy. It's like you're arguing like an atheist.

01:59:37.940 God doesn't exist.

01:59:39.020 And then you press and you go, well, I just

01:59:40.640 lack faith in God. I'm a non-combative

01:59:43.140 non-believer. Okay? So you're

01:59:44.860 backdooring a harsher premise

01:59:46.600 than just saying a preference. If you have a preference, just say you have

01:59:48.660 a preference. If you want to nuance it to death, just nuance it to death.

01:59:50.520 We're not doing a Mont & Bailey. I'm sticking to the

01:59:52.640 tweet that kicked off this whole controversy that you're against it that's right that i'm yes you

01:59:57.200 have no as a pastor you have no basis of that on scripture you've repeatedly failed to give us one

02:00:02.260 new testament example to churches that have been written to mixed ethnic churches you haven't you

02:00:06.920 haven't given us one new testament which is why i don't condemn it the bible does not condemn it

02:00:11.440 it is biblically permissible it is biblically that's incoherent joel no it's not that is

02:00:16.580 incoherent that breaks the second law of logic no first corinthians chapter six all things are

02:00:21.480 permissible, but not all things are beneficial. There is, in God's Word, a category. So you guys

02:00:28.120 have done this several times now. You've said, oh, this third category doesn't exist. It breaks

02:00:31.580 the laws of logic. Well, no. God gives this category. All things are permissible. Not all

02:00:37.380 things are beneficial. So right there, under apostolic authority, inspired by the Holy Spirit

02:00:42.380 of God, the third person in the Trinity, we have a third category, something that's permissible,

02:00:46.760 but it's not beneficial my whole thesis that kicked off this whole thing where everybody got

02:00:52.060 mad at me thousands of people christians calling me a racist saying that i hate people who these

02:00:58.460 are people who have been saying it for years they haven't even taken the time to watch the show to 0.97

02:01:02.100 see that one of my co-hosts is interracial these are are deceitful mean-spirited people they're 0.75

02:01:08.900 being mean it's wrong right whether or not interracial marriage whether or not my position 0.79

02:01:13.920 is permissible to have that's debatable slanderer slander is not debatable agree slander is objectively

02:01:21.160 immoral and all i'm saying is that this category is not a category that i invented in my mind

02:01:26.040 it's a category that i read in first corinthians chapter six as a young boy i realized that this

02:01:31.320 was a category that has biblical merit god sees us as it's it's uh permissible but not beneficial

02:01:38.420 okay so i'm allowed to make that argument okay but that's not the argument the argument isn't

02:01:43.140 today if it's beneficial or not the argument is does it go against god's normative design

02:01:49.980 and that's what ruslan is saying spread the people out

02:01:53.300 just saying that that's what ruslan is emphasizing is that you guys have not been able to scripturally

02:02:04.320 give a basis for interracial marriage going against god's original design when we have

02:02:11.320 verses that show the opposite so that's that's what has been lacking on the if you're i'll use

02:02:17.140 another example similar uh similar to the last one if your daughter wanted to get married at 15

02:02:21.960 would you let her if my daughter wanted to get married at 15 would you let her uh no why why

02:02:27.480 not uh i would i would deduce that she's not ready for that on what basis on the basis on her 0.79

02:02:34.140 mentality. Notice, notice the difference. I'm giving you my, what I ascertain and my knowledge

02:02:42.080 and my observation, right? I'm not saying even necessarily that if a 15 year old in the scripture

02:02:50.520 who got married to another 17 year old or a 21 year old, whatever, that that goes against what

02:02:55.500 God's design. I'm not saying that. But aren't you a Christian? Shouldn't you be thinking it not

02:03:00.260 arbitrarily or capriciously shouldn't you be thinking in terms of what does God say,

02:03:04.940 not only in his scripture, special revelation, but also in nature, natural revelation. You have

02:03:10.280 two different ways that God's speaking to you. Yeah, so God talks about the maturity and the

02:03:15.880 mindset of people ready for marriage. It talks about... Okay, let's do this. Should the age of

02:03:22.660 consent be 14? Not for your daughter specifically. Would you be okay with the age of consent being

02:03:27.820 I don't think so, because I think that generally 14-year-olds are not mature physically or mentally or spiritually for a marriage or relationships. 0.96

02:03:35.840 Do you think that's a valid argument, biblical argument to make?

02:03:39.420 I think that to argue that—

02:03:41.880 So you just made it—you said that's biblical, and you made an argument where you just said what you just said is biblical.

02:03:49.340 You said, I don't believe that 14- or 15-year-old girls are mature, and then you said that's biblical.

02:03:55.520 No, what? No. See, that's why I say, like, you got to let me finish that. I'm not saying that there's an age biblically, because there's not. There's not an age biblically. But biblically, it talks about maturity, spiritual maturity, physical maturity.

02:04:07.320 Where does it talk about maturity, not spiritual, but physical?

02:04:10.220 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 36

02:04:13.380 you got Ezekiel

02:04:14.780 where it talks about the maturity of

02:04:17.000 like this is God's given

02:04:18.220 a hyperbolic example

02:04:20.820 with him and his relationship

02:04:22.740 with Israel and how they've grown physically

02:04:24.660 and matured for relationship

02:04:26.620 and stuff like that

02:04:27.420 but that's just given the description of physical

02:04:30.680 growth

02:04:31.360 there's no age though

02:04:33.960 there's no age

02:04:35.920 I agree that's why I said

02:04:37.520 I wouldn't put an age on it

02:04:39.900 and say biblically a 14-year-old 0.91

02:04:41.740 so I would say a 12-year-old

02:04:44.080 is a little girl 0.53

02:04:45.160 what if she's gone through puberty

02:04:47.420 what if she's gone through puberty

02:04:49.320 that is the process by which normatively in culture 0.86

02:04:51.680 men and women were able to marry 0.53

02:04:53.220 I don't care about that

02:04:54.000 I said physical, spiritual and mental maturity

02:04:57.020 a 12-year-old does not require that

02:04:58.500 and even if you're going through puberty

02:05:00.760 if you've bled that doesn't mean that you're grown yet

02:05:02.800 you're beginning to grow

02:05:04.020 13? 14?

02:05:06.800 Same.

02:05:07.480 15.

02:05:08.280 Same.

02:05:08.840 So where should...

02:05:09.700 Hold up, hold up.

02:05:10.180 What about 17?

02:05:12.260 Well, that's a little dicey, I think.

02:05:14.720 I think that...

02:05:15.920 But again, this is going on preference.

02:05:18.380 I think that a 17-year-old...

02:05:20.520 Well, no, you're citing scripture.

02:05:22.020 At least when I was 17, I...

02:05:24.380 You just said physical maturity, spiritual maturity from the Bible.

02:05:27.980 I wouldn't condemn...

02:05:30.340 If somebody allowed their 17-year-old to get married to another 18-year-old, 19-year-old,

02:05:35.580 I wouldn't condemn that, say that goes against scripture.

02:05:38.260 I wouldn't say that.

02:05:39.660 If you asked me, would I want my 17-year-old to get married,

02:05:43.160 I'd be like, my preference would be no, but it wouldn't be an objective preference.

02:05:46.840 But this is what I'm trying to pin you down on.

02:05:48.720 If a father wanted to marry his daughter at 14, would you say that's wrong?

02:05:54.980 Yeah, I would say that that's wrong because she would not be ready.

02:05:59.280 She wouldn't meet the scriptural.

02:06:01.520 You're not her father.

02:06:02.940 I don't have to be her father to say that.

02:06:04.140 How do you know that she's of spirit?

02:06:05.640 What were the categories?

02:06:06.680 Mental, physical, spiritual?

02:06:07.880 How do you know that without knowing her?

02:06:09.340 Is a 14-year-old...

02:06:10.480 Have you ever met a 14-year-old

02:06:11.800 that is physically, mentally, and spiritually... 0.83

02:06:13.540 Many women at 14 were, historically.

02:06:16.240 I'm asking you right now.

02:06:17.340 Mary.

02:06:19.000 Mary was 14?

02:06:20.400 It's debatable, 14 to 16.

02:06:22.640 Yeah.

02:06:23.020 So we can't put her in there. 1.00

02:06:25.180 Historically, we know that women after puberty, 1.00

02:06:27.780 that's when generally they were considered eligible to be married.

02:06:30.100 That's just a matter of historical record.

02:06:31.340 So, look, all in all, this is what we're saying.

02:06:34.400 Notice, I didn't give an age on it or anything like that.

02:06:37.340 I gave biblical description, right?

02:06:39.820 What you guys haven't been able to do is do that for us, where the Bible is condemning

02:06:44.940 or not necessarily because you said it's not condemning.

02:06:47.420 It's not my position.

02:06:48.220 Exactly.

02:06:48.620 Let me correct that. 0.98

02:06:50.040 That it goes against God's normative, original design for folks to intermarry.

02:06:57.440 You guys have not demonstrated that biblical.

02:06:59.920 Can I try?

02:07:01.200 Sure.

02:07:01.860 Okay, I'll try.

02:07:03.080 And then we're probably going to need to go to a commercial break partly

02:07:07.060 because Ruslan, he's had some very important business in another room.

02:07:11.940 And I now have some very important business in another room.

02:07:15.100 So we're going to need to go to a commercial break.

02:07:15.640 I do want to come back to this Corinthians passage, if you don't mind.

02:07:19.320 Should you do that first and then me?

02:07:21.720 Or me first and then you?

02:07:22.940 Let me just hit it real quick.

02:07:24.180 Go ahead.

02:07:24.420 So you quoted 1 Corinthians 6.

02:07:25.960 I have the right to do anything you say.

02:07:28.160 That's not what I said.

02:07:29.520 Oh, you're just reading it now.

02:07:30.600 reading the passage to you hold on i'm thinking is this the message translation yeah this is a

02:07:34.520 this is a weird one because i'm used to esv it says all things are permissible but not all

02:07:38.780 he uses that the second time i thought you were trying to trap no no no i have the right to do

02:07:42.520 anything or i have everything is permissible what translation is this is the niv i'm sorry i'm

02:07:46.200 niv no wonder it's nearly inspired no one you say not everything is beneficial i have the right to

02:07:53.120 do anything but i will tell you not to be mastered by anything you say stomach uh food for stomach

02:08:00.180 and a stomach for food, and God would destroy them both.

02:08:02.600 The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality, 0.94

02:08:04.880 but for the Lord and the Lord for the body.

02:08:06.940 Joel, you made a massive error here.

02:08:10.360 This is a quote, and we can find scholars to back this up.

02:08:13.740 Paul is quoting back to them, everything is permissible.

02:08:16.900 He's quoting this back to them, and then he's using it to segue into,

02:08:20.860 I will not be mastered by anything, and then going into lay out

02:08:24.820 how sexual immorality is not what we're designed for.

02:08:27.040 So this is not a cosign for this arbitrary third category of how something could be not

02:08:32.420 natural but still permissible, and we don't see that in Scripture, we don't see that in

02:08:35.860 church history.

02:08:37.920 Romans 14 would be another example.

02:08:40.120 What we're talking about is liberty of conscience.

02:08:42.760 We're talking about this category where something may not be best, it may not be the ideal,

02:08:49.260 but it is still permissible nonetheless.

02:08:52.980 This is a category in Scripture.

02:08:55.200 yeah you're talking about wisdom issues right you're talking about wisdom issues yeah so so

02:09:02.040 if we're talking about wisdom issues you're you're conflating again ethnos and race with

02:09:07.760 culture and faith that's that's the huge distinction i think it's unwise to genocide

02:09:13.340 the entire european that's an emotional argument you're you're an extreme you're backdooring

02:09:18.440 you're backdooring emotionally charged language to make the white kids who watch this feel like

02:09:23.180 their jobs are being taken. I think it would be tragic if white people

02:09:26.980 perished from the face of the earth. I would also say the same thing. 0.99

02:09:31.160 It would be horrible if white people perished from the face of the earth. That's 1.00

02:09:34.920 different. We know we don't take that position, but if

02:09:38.840 interracial marriage was normative, came to the point, if you guys

02:09:42.780 grew and grew and grew in popularity, and you guys said, hey, there's nothing in the Bible against

02:09:46.860 this. If it grew to 50-60%, European people 0.95

02:09:50.960 would perish from the face of the earth over generations they just would so we're saying 0.99

02:09:54.900 that's the logical outcome none of us would be here bro you don't want it i don't want it but

02:09:57.880 none of us would be here go ahead wait what do you mean but my children like if it would take

02:10:02.360 multiple generations so your offspring only offspring might look exactly like you that's

02:10:05.780 like a hezekiah move hezekiah hears that bad things will happen after his lifetime that's the

02:10:09.600 hezekiah is the original no no no i'm saying i don't think i don't happen in my lifetime so i

02:10:13.400 don't care respectfully if we're being honest i don't think either of you are going to care if

02:10:17.440 your grandkids or your great-grandkids are mixed. I really don't think this would be an issue.

02:10:21.460 If they possess the nation that was gifted to them. Yeah, but that's an arbitrary definition

02:10:25.540 of nation. We already agree that there's nations that are mixed ethnic, that that exists. So you

02:10:30.460 guys being down the road, your grandkids, your great-grandkids, and one of them is white, and

02:10:33.960 one of them is mixed, and one of them married a Spanish guy, and one of them married... You guys 0.77

02:10:37.280 aren't going to care. Be honest. You're not going to care. You're going to love those grandkids. 0.99

02:10:40.700 You're going to see the image of God. You're going to see yourself in them. You're going to celebrate

02:10:44.080 what God is doing through them.

02:10:45.260 You're gonna celebrate the Christian heritage

02:10:47.220 that you laid out for them

02:10:48.360 as the primary identity markers.

02:10:50.240 This stuff's not gonna matter

02:10:51.160 in generations and generations. 1.00

02:10:52.860 Yeah, so one of these new ethnicities,

02:10:55.960 whether it's the American ethnicity,

02:10:57.240 this is what Teddy Roosevelt said

02:10:58.580 about 1900 to 1910, 1920.

02:11:03.280 He said that there were

02:11:04.440 multiple different ingredients.

02:11:06.020 Let's use this analogy of like a furnace,

02:11:07.920 multiple different ingredients.

02:11:09.000 You have the French, you have the Celtics,

02:11:10.260 you have this, that, and the other,

02:11:11.780 and they come, the Brits,

02:11:12.660 they come in germanics they come in and what you have is time you have so you have one you have

02:11:19.240 not a thousand ingredients you have you know five six seven and they're not distantly related but

02:11:25.360 much more closely related they then come into this furnace and the furnace is providence it's

02:11:30.520 adversity it's the hardships of settling a new continent a new country all these things so you

02:11:35.780 have high heat adversity providence you have long periods of time right there's there's decades that

02:11:41.620 go by a couple centuries if you're going all the way back to 1600s all the way up to the 1900

02:11:46.260 and the ingredients are few rather than many and more closely related what we're doing today with

02:11:52.060 globalism is not that it's not like you know part of the french and part of you know the nordics

02:11:58.180 they went and they settled and they became a new that's not what we're doing we're taking people

02:12:02.260 from opposite ends of the earth in mass wave after wave with no pause in between and putting them in 0.88

02:12:08.940 the same place, and then encouraging same-sex marriage, encouraging abortion, encouraging

02:12:15.940 intermarriage, encouraging all these different things, saying, well, you know what, if this 0.76

02:12:20.320 forms a new ethnicity, and I don't think that's normative. 0.92

02:12:23.020 I don't think that that's the way that nations developed historically.

02:12:25.800 You're railing against globalism.

02:12:27.460 I'm saying there's nations here today that this has already happened to.

02:12:30.720 If you look at Brazil, if you look at Puerto Rico, if you look at Mexico, if you look at

02:12:34.160 America, all of these exist. 0.76

02:12:36.080 So say there's a group of white folks that come to a country and they say, hey, we want 0.63

02:12:40.120 to have an inter-ethnic community.

02:12:44.480 Do you have an issue against that?

02:12:46.220 Say it again. 1.00

02:12:47.320 A group of white folks. 1.00

02:12:48.400 They come, they start a new nation.

02:12:50.300 And they say, we want to have inter-ethnic people.

02:12:52.280 We want to have inter-ethnic community.

02:12:53.540 Do you have an issue with that?

02:12:55.980 Like little Czechoslovakia, is that kind of what you're saying? 0.93

02:12:59.300 Like a bunch of white people, Eastern European, you're like, ah. 0.94

02:13:02.040 Yeah, they're a bunch of people and they decide they want to be a mixed people. 0.98

02:13:05.580 Should they be allowed to preserve that? 1.00

02:13:07.020 A small group?

02:13:09.580 It's irrelevant.

02:13:10.360 Just a group of people.

02:13:11.280 Here in the United States?

02:13:12.880 A country of make-believe.

02:13:15.040 A country of make-believe.

02:13:16.120 So you're saying some white people from America, 0.68

02:13:18.800 they go to a new place,

02:13:20.840 and they say,

02:13:21.380 we want to start a new ethnicity,

02:13:22.780 and so we're going to go there. 1.00

02:13:23.300 No, no, no.

02:13:24.000 They're okay,

02:13:24.980 whether it's ethnos,

02:13:25.720 whether it's nations.

02:13:26.160 They are okay

02:13:27.440 with having a bunch of different folks together.

02:13:30.300 I would say that it is biblically permissible,

02:13:32.360 but should not be normative.

02:13:34.520 you also do see how that in time that would all of that would synthesize into one single ethnicity

02:13:40.880 you see how that would occur and then by the way would they still bring people in like i mean oh i

02:13:45.860 mean i think brazil and all these countries that are mixed ethnic creating a new ethnicity i think

02:13:50.640 are as a people group distinct and i think generally speaking i don't think they have an

02:13:55.460 issue with their countries yes you can point to whatever corruption is going on there i think the

02:13:59.460 broader conversation is if God is provident, if God is sovereign over all of this, these places

02:14:05.400 already exist, and America is already, you could argue whether America was intended to be a white

02:14:09.760 only nation or a mixed nation, a melting pot, depending on which people you want to cite and

02:14:14.000 source mine, but these places already exist, and God's providence is already going to be nations

02:14:18.360 and revelations. That's the end. So whatever God is, whatever's going to happen in between then,

02:14:22.240 that's already predicted, and we already have these nations of mixed ethnicities. They're here

02:14:26.580 now i have a question um if this is that little segment is done and i i won't like push back and

02:14:32.820 i'm just curious um so you said you have you know you pack your pastor got all these members right

02:14:38.280 interracial members and all that kind of stuff um and are there interracial couples in your in

02:14:44.040 your church as well okay so let's say that there's um um an interracial couple that's coming to you

02:14:50.040 uh for marriage counseling they're not married yet um but they're seeking to get married right

02:14:55.300 that's a great question would you yeah how would you handle that would you discourage that or what

02:14:58.980 how would you deal with that yeah so i've done this in my premarital counseling if i have you

02:15:03.640 know two individuals and um and there's um not just different racial but also different it's

02:15:09.560 different racially but also different ethnicity meaning um some language barriers right or um

02:15:16.560 like obviously you know like they probably wouldn't be dating if if they couldn't speak at all but

02:15:20.360 for this gal she's from brazil and english is her second language and this guy you know is white as

02:15:26.040 the driven snow you know and english is the only thing he knows um then yes i've said this is going

02:15:31.240 to add extra difficulties it's going to be more challenging marriage is already sanctifying so my

02:15:36.780 view of marriage in the sanctification category is that in marriage god takes two sinners locks

02:15:41.660 them into close proximity so that they are uh whether intentionally or inadvertently constantly

02:15:46.380 stomping on one another's idols marriage is sanctifying period and it's good praise god

02:15:51.860 that's one of the i would say purposes of marriage procreation sanctification uh gospel

02:15:57.340 proclamation picture of christ in the church the eternal marriage also a hedge against temptation

02:16:01.880 if anyone burns with lust let him marry marriage actually is a solution not the only but a solution

02:16:07.980 one of the ways a young man uh beats wins the the fight against lust is take a wife right so

02:16:14.760 um because my whole story has been published on the internet um yeah i i failed sexually because

02:16:22.280 um i waited too long to take a wife once i took a wife by the grace of god now well well over a

02:16:28.260 decade i have been a faithful man um and praise god for that my wife helped me tremendously

02:16:33.620 so all that being said yes i have counseled i've told and i've officiated um interracial

02:16:40.780 marriages because it is biblically permissible. Um, and so, but in my counseling, that would be

02:16:46.440 one of the things that we would cover. It wouldn't be the main thing. It wouldn't be the chief thing,

02:16:50.560 but it also would not be nothing. It would be a thing. And I would say, this is chance. Like we

02:16:55.000 have a young man in our church and he knows that this debate was coming up and he, you know, he's,

02:16:59.820 he's online and has seen the controversy over the last week on Twitter and all that kind of stuff.

02:17:04.200 And, uh, and you know, he said, please don't use my name. Cause I'd like to keep my job. You know,

02:17:08.140 don't, don't dox me because I'm a bit of a lightning rod. Uh, but great guy. And, uh,

02:17:12.660 he's married to a Brazilian wife and he ends up spending, you know, some years, not always,

02:17:17.540 but he was like, Joel, he's like, Joel, you think I like spending three months out of the year in

02:17:21.980 Brazil? It's like, it sucks. And his parents are in-laws, her parents. He's like, I can't talk. 0.99

02:17:28.100 I can't even talk to them. They don't speak English. He's like, dude, he was like, tell

02:17:32.760 them in the debate, tell them, um, I love my wife as Christ loves the church. I don't regret my

02:17:37.880 marriage i wouldn't undo it i love my children and his children are fearfully and wonderfully made

02:17:43.180 in the image of god as interracial children um he's like but yeah it's way harder yeah yeah it's

02:17:50.120 way harder and i wish that someone hadn't been a lib and in i wish i had had a pastor like you

02:17:56.240 like you are now because i didn't always think this way you're right rusla but at the time doing

02:18:00.640 my premarital counseling and saying you know what this is permissible i will officiate the marriage

02:18:05.260 But I would be remiss if at some point in our premarital counseling, I did not bring

02:18:09.440 up the fact that marriage is already sanctifying enough, this is going to make it really hard.

02:18:14.440 You might want to prayerfully reconsider.

02:18:16.380 So, Joel, this is what I would add to that. 0.79

02:18:18.360 I think you would say the same thing if you had a family that was a upper class white 0.83

02:18:24.060 family that loved Jesus and a trailer park biker gang family. 0.84

02:18:28.880 A little different because they could still speak the same language. 0.95

02:18:30.900 Okay, they could still speak the same language.

02:18:32.260 That would still be easier.

02:18:34.060 Massive cultural disconnect. 0.99

02:18:35.260 If you're talking about an upper-middle-class Christian family that loves Jesus and a biker, gang, hell's angel, family from a trailer park. 0.95

02:18:42.240 Yes, and that massive distance, you're right. 0.95

02:18:43.480 That massive distance still pales in comparison to the distance I just described.

02:18:47.860 Joel, I strongly disagree.

02:18:48.820 The distance I just described includes the distance of even language.

02:18:52.040 Yeah, the language of in-laws.

02:18:53.900 Her learning English and him maybe... 1.00

02:18:55.400 Right, but when you marry a woman, you marry her family.

02:18:57.560 Those families are united.

02:18:58.900 Sure, let me add to this.

02:19:00.120 Marriage is a sanctifying process.

02:19:01.400 And so if you're marrying someone and you're deciding to potentially learn their language,

02:19:06.620 potentially learn the things, these are all awesome potential adventures.

02:19:10.780 So to me, this is all in how you're framing this.

02:19:13.040 Like, oh, man, our in-laws can't speak.

02:19:14.920 I got friends that their in-laws can't speak English, and they get along just fine.

02:19:17.740 And they're able to communicate, and things are great.

02:19:20.000 And so I think you're pointing to challenges, but these same challenges can be in real existence

02:19:26.340 in the same race. 0.99

02:19:27.680 That's what I'm pointing to. 1.00

02:19:28.740 Not quite the same.

02:19:29.660 No, I don't think so.

02:19:30.800 And let me just add this.

02:19:32.660 As someone that is in an interracial marriage, I have never had any of these challenges.

02:19:37.180 I've never had, like, literally, my challenges in my marriage have so little to do with culture.

02:19:42.120 Why? 1.00

02:19:42.900 Because my wife is black. 0.76

02:19:44.480 She grew up in the same city, going to the same type of church, holding the same type of theology.

02:19:48.760 And I also grew around a bunch of black people.

02:19:52.060 So I, and I'm Armenian.

02:19:53.540 I was going to say.

02:19:54.540 But let me just finish.

02:19:55.380 The biggest identity issues I had, Joel, was not in my interracial marriage. 0.95

02:20:00.320 The biggest identity issues I had was being Armenian from Azerbaijan, hanging with a bunch of Glendales, and being super confused. 0.95

02:20:07.640 And I'm white, but I'm Armenian, and ethnically, that was a way bigger identity issue than my black wife and her amazing family and my beautiful mixed kids. 1.00

02:20:16.040 So I'm just laying that out for you.

02:20:17.600 You're talking about an example, and that's a fair example. 0.92

02:20:19.860 I'm saying I've seen the same thing with white couples that are coming from massive disparity and upbringing. 0.85

02:20:25.260 This dude's dad is a hell angel. 0.97

02:20:27.000 He gets drunk and smashes beers.

02:20:28.580 They come from an amazing family to love Jesus that creates just as much tension

02:20:32.120 So so I understand I think this is the problem though

02:20:35.860 I think what we have done especially as Westerners and especially as Americans is

02:20:40.720 We continue to point out that there are exceptions and there are exceptions

02:20:44.820 But we point them out ad nauseum and we elevate them as though they're the norm

02:20:49.200 There are some there are some let me finish there are certainly plenty of cases 0.81

02:20:55.000 where two white individuals would still have culturally enough differences

02:20:59.680 that there would be challenges in the marriage.

02:21:03.700 But if we emphasize that as, like, so it exists everywhere,

02:21:07.100 the impression that we give people who, like me,

02:21:09.980 who would have made those arguments, one race, the human race,

02:21:12.640 the impression that we're giving people is that,

02:21:15.180 so because that exists, two white individuals with cultural differences

02:21:18.900 and it produces challenges in the marriage,

02:21:20.780 because of that, there's really no difference if you marry a Haitian.

02:21:25.000 no there really is a difference it depends on how many generations has she been here do her parents

02:21:29.240 love jesus all haitians aren't monolithic joel uh well if you've never met any christians yeah

02:21:35.320 are we talking about christian we know how many generations they've been hold on slow down

02:21:38.520 slow down if we're talking about christian haitians that love jesus and are evangelical

02:21:43.400 post-mill we'll just say your camp those do exist and they're not all monolithic and there

02:21:48.280 are christian haitians do you know someone yeah i guess i do one of my closest friends is haitian

02:21:52.840 Yes, I know, yes.

02:21:54.140 He's post-mill?

02:21:55.300 No, I'm messing with you and giving you your theology.

02:21:58.200 I'm saying he's an evangelical, second, third-generation Haitian.

02:22:00.740 We all know on average what the typical Haitian culture is like.

02:22:04.200 They congregate around restaurants.

02:22:05.760 I think you guys should really meet more Haitians, brother.

02:22:07.860 Respectfully, man.

02:22:08.580 Haitians are not a monolith.

02:22:09.820 One of my wife's best friend was Haitian that came in early on.

02:22:12.900 I know these people, and I know also they congregate around the food and the culture.

02:22:16.720 They maintain that sense of identity.

02:22:18.600 We know 90% of Haitians generally identify not with American culture like we're talking about.

02:22:23.180 They identify with parts of Haiti, and that actually is good and natural.

02:22:26.120 I identify with parts of Armenia.

02:22:27.860 Yeah, that's awesome.

02:22:28.880 People should love their fatherland, love where they came from,

02:22:31.900 and assimilate into America, and assimilate into Christian heritage. 0.82

02:22:35.880 When you assimilate, like Ruth, you do leave behind.

02:22:38.680 And there is, and I've talked to the people, some of them coming from Ukraine.

02:22:42.080 There's a painful process where they're leaving behind the language,

02:22:44.740 or leaving behind the customs to become American.

02:22:47.180 So you actually don't get both ways.

02:22:48.600 Oh, we're honoring Haiti, and we love the food, and we fly the flag, and we watch the World Cup, and also we're completely American ethnicity. 0.67

02:22:55.020 Ruth forsook her fathers, her people, and her false Moabite gods.

02:23:00.760 And that's what people keep pointing to Ruth.

02:23:03.400 You guys haven't actually done this.

02:23:05.900 You've been, I think, really respectful.

02:23:08.400 But Samuel Say, for instance, he was pointing that out.

02:23:11.680 The difference, I would say, is that Ruth was leaving, in leaving Moab, she was leaving a place where there was no Christian subset population in Moab at the time.

02:23:23.300 She was leaving a place, a people, that was 100% pagan. 0.79

02:23:27.700 It was 100% idolatrous.

02:23:29.500 So she forsook her people, and the Bible, it's not prescriptive, it's descriptive, but in that descriptive passage, it does esteem it.

02:23:36.720 It elevates it as a good, look at this virtuous thing that Ruth did.

02:23:39.580 And it was virtuous, not because dishonoring and severing relations from your parents is universally virtuous, but in her particular case, she was leaving for all the right reasons.

02:23:50.520 Her parents, she, to say, goodbye, Father, and I will never see you again, was honorable because her father worshipped sand demons. 0.61

02:23:58.540 Her father was a pagan, you know?

02:24:01.720 But what we have today, like Samuel say, Ghana is 73% Christian. 0.99

02:24:06.360 so in forsaking his people and coming here it's not i'm forsaking them because they're all pagans 0.96

02:24:13.700 because they're all non-christians right that's that's different so then the question is oh well

02:24:18.560 being here are you going to preserve your ghanaian heritage and love that and and try to preserve it

02:24:24.440 and cherish it pass it down to your children and if so how are you going to do that but also

02:24:28.580 assimilate here in america like i think you go walk and chew gum at the same time joe respectfully

02:24:35.280 So do I.

02:24:35.820 I talk about it all the time, but not here. 1.00

02:24:38.160 But you have Mexican protesters flying the Mexican flag

02:24:40.620 as they pelt ICE officers and police in L.A.

02:24:43.520 And I've condemned all of that publicly.

02:24:44.920 Yeah, but do you see that they're here with an allegiance elsewhere?

02:24:47.440 But you're trying to get, it's the is-to-ot fallacy.

02:24:52.260 Like, just because it is hard or just because these people are doing it, 0.55

02:24:54.860 that doesn't mean you ought not to get married to an interracial person. 1.00

02:24:57.800 This is a breakdown in the logic that I'm trying to point to. 1.00

02:24:58.900 We allowed it as permissible.

02:25:00.440 Yeah, but we already looked at how that's not a formidable category.

02:25:03.520 I went to the text for you.

02:25:05.020 So you still haven't made the point, whether from scripture, and again, if these things were the

02:25:08.860 exceptions to the rule, when we see them in church history, when we see John Wolfe marrying

02:25:13.340 Pocahontas, who became Rebecca, and there's an entire thing laid out in an Anglican church in

02:25:17.580 1614, citing the historical significance, there should have been an asterisk there. Because when

02:25:22.640 there's a, hey, this guy is an asterisk, there should be an asterisk, there's an exception to

02:25:26.220 the rule. When we see polygamy, it's an exception to the rule, because there was some Muslim that 0.99

02:25:29.540 had four wives, and he heard his sermon, he came to Jesus, and there's an asterisk there. But you 0.98

02:25:33.460 don't see this in church history. And I can go through missionary after missionary, Miguel

02:25:37.720 Rodriguez, a Spanish creator, a Christian soldier, Mary Louisa Delgo, the free black woman in St.

02:25:43.420 Augustine. Like we see this over and over and there's never an asterisk next to them, but this

02:25:47.780 is not normative. If there was a dude in your church that was polygamous and you're like, man,

02:25:52.200 I don't know, do you get rid of these wives? There would be an asterisk. It's clearly not normative. 1.00

02:25:55.420 It's clearly not in God's design. And that again, you guys have not been able to establish this

02:25:59.220 from scripture we don't see any prohibition on it and and i i don't see it from scripture or

02:26:04.100 church history i don't know if you want to chime in no i think that's i was going to say do you

02:26:07.800 want to maybe make one final closing statement i know you have one more thing to say we're getting

02:26:11.040 close to five so we've got to hit the super chats sure sure but uh if you wanted to take it and

02:26:15.140 maybe land the plane yeah sure sure yeah so um yeah from so from what we our position is

02:26:21.500 whether or not intermarriage goes against God's natural design. The answer that we see from 0.95

02:26:29.740 Scripture is a resounding no. The only type of reservation and condemnation that we see in the

02:26:35.120 Scripture in regards to intermarriage is with those who would lead you astray from the true 0.58

02:26:43.600 worship of the true God. That's it. We do not see any prohibition from intermarriage in general. 1.00

02:26:51.900 It's only to those who would lead you away from God. And we have examples of this, of where 1.00

02:26:58.660 marrying the women and the Canaanites and all this kind of stuff led the Israelites away, 0.80

02:27:06.000 integrating with them and messing with them. The Medianites led them astray into worship of false 0.99

02:27:10.660 gods uh what we have is in first corinthians it says that a woman who uh is is free to marry 0.94

02:27:17.960 is free to marry whoever she wishes and the only stipulation it gives is only in the lord so as

02:27:26.380 long as the uh the the spouse is in the lord that is it that is the only stipulation otherwise you 0.68

02:27:34.880 would be unequally yoked um a believer being unequally yoked with a disbeliever um um we we

02:27:42.120 see uh uh this throughout the lineage of jesus um he has uh mixed mixed uh people within his

02:27:50.560 lineage rahab um who was a canaanite uh woman um obviously ruth the moabite woman um we're seeing

02:27:58.900 that this is even in the line of our messiah how can we say that this is not for ordained and

02:28:03.900 planned by God. You know what I'm saying? So does this go against God's normal design according to

02:28:10.500 scripture? No, it does not. We see the opposite. Okay. I'll give just a little bit of, I wanted

02:28:18.980 to talk about the Tower of Babel and also creation, but just one response to that, I would just say

02:28:23.960 a woman, a single Christian woman is free to marry whom she wishes in the Lord. And that would

02:28:29.760 include, I just want the record to state, that would include a five-year-old boy, so long as

02:28:33.400 He's made a credible profession and been baptized.

02:28:37.800 Correct.

02:28:39.000 Okay.

02:28:39.540 So what I...

02:28:40.220 That's a straw man.

02:28:40.480 Gosh!

02:28:41.400 Come on, man.

02:28:42.820 This is...

02:28:43.320 Come on.

02:28:43.660 We're up for restrictions.

02:28:44.520 No.

02:28:44.840 That was terrible.

02:28:46.280 Listen, listen, Joel, you were very upset about folks calling you racist and all this.

02:28:51.340 We haven't came here calling you racist.

02:28:53.040 We haven't came here strawmanning you.

02:28:54.200 We genuinely came here trying to understand your guys' position.

02:28:57.380 I thought it'd be a bit better demonstrated from scripture.

02:29:00.080 It hasn't.

02:29:01.400 And so let's not strawman. 0.89

02:29:02.640 That's silly.

02:29:03.400 it's not a straw man 0.96

02:29:04.700 anyone she wishes

02:29:08.540 and yet we all five agree

02:29:10.640 that there actually would still be some

02:29:12.880 forbearance

02:29:14.180 we all agree

02:29:15.580 although it's not explicitly stated in the text

02:29:18.120 so I'm just pointing that out, that exists

02:29:20.340 okay, so this is what I was going to say

02:29:22.120 in terms of creation and the Tower of Babel

02:29:23.620 so a lot of people use the Tower of Babel and say

02:29:25.780 look, this is God's judgment and it is

02:29:27.940 Babel was a judgment 0.96

02:29:29.200 but what's important I think for people to realize 0.73

02:29:31.520 is that there's two sins, not merely one

02:29:33.260 So one is the sin of arrogance, blatant, unbridled arrogance and pride.

02:29:37.960 They wanted to build a tower that stretched to the heavens so that they could be as God, right?

02:29:42.160 So there's the arrogance factor, and God sends a judgment because of that.

02:29:45.280 But there's a second sin, and it's actually listed in the text.

02:29:49.140 The second sin is it says, let us build a tower that stretches to the heavens so that we might be as God,

02:29:54.480 so that we will not, and make a great name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the face of the earth.

02:29:58.940 And I would tie that into the dominion mandate.

02:30:01.160 So I believe in a prelapsarian world, even if sin never entered the world, in Genesis chapter 3, that the natural fulfillment and obedience to the cultural mandate that was given by God to Adam, that it actually would have naturally developed over time different races and also different, multiple, different, some different races and many different ethnicities.

02:30:20.400 that the dominion mandate was to be fruitful and multiply and to fill the earth. So it was

02:30:26.320 that God would have many image-bearing creatures to worship him, and that they would also fill

02:30:32.880 the whole temple, that the garden, I think that this is implicit in scripture, that the garden

02:30:37.220 was, Adam was to work and keep. Work is to tend, and I would say to grow the garden, to actually

02:30:43.400 cultivate and advance the garden, that that garden that was a geographic locale, that with his

02:30:49.400 stewardship, good stewardship over the garden, over the earth, that he would expand its borders,

02:30:54.240 that even before sin entered the world, there were still deserted wilderness type places. Adam was

02:30:58.980 actually created in such a place. He was made in the wilderness, the text says, and then placed by

02:31:03.400 God in the garden. And then Eve was made from Adam from his flank as a suitable helpmate to him in

02:31:09.120 the garden. So there were desolate places. I believe that the dominion mandate would be that

02:31:13.560 Adam and Eve would be fruitful and multiply. There would be many triune worshipers and these 1.00

02:31:19.180 trying worshipers would not just be congregated and isolated in one place, but in working and

02:31:23.940 keeping, advancing and defending his role in the garden. The garden would actually advance and

02:31:29.300 increase and fill the whole earth. So you would have an all earth encompassing garden and the

02:31:33.980 whole earth would be filled with these image bearing creatures worshiping the Lord. And that

02:31:37.680 over time, going across seas and mountain ranges and rivers and desolate climates, more hot climates,

02:31:43.960 more cold climates, all these different things that you would naturally develop through nature,

02:31:48.460 you would develop different peoples that would have distinctions at first. It would be just

02:31:53.980 different accents and dialects, eventually devolving into different languages and these

02:31:58.420 kinds of things, and depending if they live closer to the equator or further, different pigment and

02:32:02.900 skin and all these different things. So I think that different races was always God's intended

02:32:07.640 thing, even in a prelapsarian world if sin never entered. If sin entered, which it did in Genesis 0.77

02:32:12.660 chapter 3, if man, having sinned, still committed himself to the Lord and wanted to be obedient

02:32:18.140 thereafter, then I believe the same thing. People would spread out and fill the earth and you would

02:32:23.220 get different races. In the Tower of Babel, what you have is now you have disobedience in the 0.98

02:32:28.120 garden, sin enters the world and through sin, death, but also you have further doubling down,

02:32:32.840 tripling down, quadrupling down of rebellion against God. And one of those, a heightened

02:32:38.280 descriptive passage of that rebellion reaching a culmination is at Babel where there's unbridled

02:32:44.780 arrogance, let's rival God, build a tower that stretches to the heavens so that we may be as 0.71

02:32:49.100 God and make a great name for ourself, but then a second sin so that we won't do exactly what Adam

02:32:54.500 was commanded to do in the cultural mandate. We will not spread out and fill the earth, but rather

02:32:59.660 we can congregate. We're going to do this so that we can rival God in terms of our name, but also

02:33:05.560 so that we can rebel against God in terms of his mandate to fill the earth. We want to congregate.

02:33:11.300 And so Babel, I believe that what God does when he goes and divides their languages is a judgment for their sin, two sins, but it's a judgment wrapped in mercy. 0.90

02:33:22.140 Babel serves as a catalyst of God actually supernaturally quick-starting what would have happened naturally over time had they obeyed. 0.90

02:33:31.240 It produced different peoples. 0.99

02:33:32.780 The different languages caused them then to split up. 0.76

02:33:35.780 And as they split up over generations, over time, centuries, in different climates, in

02:33:40.100 different places, speaking different languages, with different diets, it created different

02:33:44.420 peoples.

02:33:45.380 And so I believe that different races were always God's idea. 0.92

02:33:48.100 It would have happened if sin never entered the world. 0.98

02:33:50.140 It would have happened if people obeyed after sin entered the world. 0.84

02:33:53.180 And he made it happen, even with people disobeying after sin entered the world through Babel 0.95

02:33:57.880 kickstarting the supernatural catalyst.

02:33:59.620 All that said, Revelation 7-9, the end game is that we would actually celebrate diversity, different peoples around the throne of God in heaven for eternity.

02:34:09.840 But that scenario does not play out if diversity is not at some level preserved here on earth.

02:34:17.100 You don't get eternal diversity if you steamroll diversity temporally.

02:34:22.440 So we believe that nations are good, they're God's normative plan, and that if anyone is

02:34:28.200 encouraging or promoting at scale in the macro as a positive, virtuous, universal good, mass

02:34:37.900 interracial marriage, that that actually goes against God's normative plan. It is permissible 0.97

02:34:44.940 in the micro, might even be ideal in a micro situation, and a pastor or a father can counsel

02:34:51.400 accordingly with his congregant with his daughter with his son but in the macro if i'm if i'm

02:34:57.920 presented with only two choices after being called a racist after being uh publicly slandered saying

02:35:04.600 that joel is for capital punishment for interracial marriage and then right now before everyone tell

02:35:10.760 us are you for or against those two options then i would say yes i would be generally against for 0.97

02:35:17.500 you're encouraging, promoting, advancing against your warning, counseling, saying I think that

02:35:25.600 in general, biblically permissible in the micro, but in general in the macro, this goes against

02:35:31.360 the normative plan of God for peoples, nations, and cultures. That's my argument. That's how I

02:35:38.520 would describe it from the Bible in a macro view using descriptive text. There's no prescriptive

02:35:43.920 verse that says do not intermarry racially we we recognize that which is why we don't condemn it

02:35:49.560 as a sin but i do think that there are enough descriptive texts in the whole narrative

02:35:54.260 scripture to say yeah this is the norm this is the norm so you guys ask for my bible that's that's

02:36:00.180 my bible it's a macro descriptive argument from scripture and nature now i know you guys obviously

02:36:06.380 disagree and don't think it's a good argument but i i said i would give you one and and that's what

02:36:10.920 i got let's go to a commercial break i don't get to make a statement i thought we just did that we

02:36:15.400 did you we did no you got yeah i mean we don't we won't have a ton of time we don't i really want

02:36:20.700 to be able to do super chat it's not so eight what time is it right now it's five it's five

02:36:25.280 so you got to leave when six six thirty yeah yeah probably we don't need one go ahead i would say

02:36:31.560 you leave you leave at six so do it do it quick let's go to commercial break and we can at least

02:36:35.700 give like 50 minutes of super chat i'll do my very best okay uh that dominion mandate was an

02:36:42.420 amazing argument from silence joel i have never heard anything that exhaustive from that little

02:36:47.180 scripture respectfully i think you kind of conceded a debate and you said there's no

02:36:50.820 prescriptive text you're just weaving together stuff from descriptive passages and a little bit

02:36:55.600 of natural law reformed theology i don't know i don't know how you come to these i mean i know

02:37:00.100 how you come to these conclusions but i think it's just it's i'm really impressed with how you

02:37:03.740 were able to weave all this together. I want to go to John 7. I'm impressed by the sarcasm.

02:37:07.820 Okay. Because you're laying it on pretty thick. I am. I want to go to John, because I think John

02:37:13.960 in Romans, excuse me, John speaking in Revelation 7-9, we have the Greek, we have nation, which

02:37:21.200 means ethos, people group. This is not a race. In any modern biological sense, which again,

02:37:27.060 that word didn't pop in until about 500 years ago. This is just as modern as a lot of the gender 0.72

02:37:31.780 theory nonsense. We have tribe clan, which is about a kinship lineage, family lines, Israel's 0.53

02:37:38.620 use. And then we have people, a covenant word used to describe God's people. John is not collapsing

02:37:44.260 humanity into a single flattened category. So it's okay, all you white men, it's going to be fine.

02:37:51.440 Nor is he freezing them into a permanent segregated order. He's doing something much

02:37:57.380 more dangerous to ethnic purity. He preserves distinction without hierarchy. Why all of this 0.95

02:38:02.980 undermines this entire natural law equals separation, even though we have no scripture

02:38:06.720 and we're breaking the rules of logic. If natural law demands ethnic separation as normative,

02:38:13.180 Revelation 7-9 becomes a problem. There's these distinctions that survive into the very end,

02:38:18.100 but they survive inside a single redeemed multitude, no hint of boundary enforcement,

02:38:23.520 no hint of ethnic preservation as a moral duty, no hierarchy of any tribes, nations, or peoples,

02:38:29.620 and nations and peoples evolve over time as boundaries move and nations sprout up and all

02:38:34.780 these things change. So John gives us a different redeemed gospel. He gives us a different redeemed

02:38:41.720 people, not difference guarded. And that's where, in my opinion, this idea of natural law from

02:38:47.580 creation to natural order, distinct people, moral obligation, Revelation flips that. Creation, fall,

02:38:53.100 redemption, unified worship with real diversity. If separation were really normative, why does the

02:39:00.500 final vision not separate these nations? They are together, they are worshiping, they are visibly

02:39:06.300 diverse, and heaven doesn't rush to correct it. And church history doesn't rush to correct it.

02:39:11.860 And all the church fathers don't rush to correct it. There's no asterisks next to these names.

02:39:16.820 So John uses four different Greek words in Revelation 7-9 not to enforce separation,

02:39:22.380 but to show that redemption doesn't erase difference or moralize it.

02:39:26.780 The nations aren't purified by distance, they're unified by worship.

02:39:31.000 That's not liberal theology, that's not Marxism, that's not critical theory,

02:39:34.900 that's biblical eschatology doing violence to ethnic purity and natural law claims.

02:39:41.580 And our awesome opponents, who I really did enjoy,

02:39:44.600 failed to demonstrate this in the New Testament,

02:39:46.820 they failed to demonstrate it with logic and reason,

02:39:48.740 And I think the whole idea that there's no prescriptions, in my opinion, there's no prescriptive text on this, concedes the entire premise that was incoherent to begin with.

02:39:57.900 So that's my final statement.

02:39:58.940 I'm going to add a 30-second phone a friend.

02:40:00.740 We had Avery, we had Joel, we had Ruslan.

02:40:02.660 We did get just a helpful distinction as it relates to permissibility and permissibility.

02:40:06.740 30 seconds.

02:40:07.400 We'll go to Super Chat.

02:40:08.580 He said, this excluded, middle, permissible, impermissible argument is wrong.

02:40:12.860 The kind of act as permissible is different than an act in concrete circumstances.

02:40:17.120 An act can be morally permissible in its genus, as a generic kind of act, but illicit in its species when in concrete circumstances, the act is an improper means to what is good.

02:40:26.720 It is morally permissible for an 18-year-old to marry a 65-year-old, but isn't ordinarily prudent.

02:40:31.740 I think it was fair to take 30 seconds at the end there.

02:40:34.340 All right, let's go to commercial break.

02:40:37.140 This is the final commercial break.

02:40:38.220 Then we're coming back, and we're doing Super Chats.

02:40:39.900 If you have a Super Chat, get it in now.

02:40:42.400 We'll do our best to do every single Super Chat.

02:40:44.780 We've got a good amount.

02:40:45.340 We've got about 45 minutes, which means we're going to have,

02:40:47.480 and I'm talking to myself, but we're going to have to go quick.

02:40:49.980 Four of us will get through a minute.

02:40:51.560 Four of us will do just fine.

02:40:53.700 We'll let you figure out who's the guy who's going to struggle.

02:40:56.080 We're going to have to do quick responses so that we can get to all the super chats.

02:40:59.840 All right, here we go.

02:41:00.460 Last commercial.

02:41:01.400 See, when a nation rejects God,

02:41:03.040 Scripture is plain in telling us what we should expect to follow.

02:41:06.920 Confusion, disorder, judgment.

02:41:09.040 And one of the first things in a society to be corrupted is our money.

02:41:13.380 The markets actually exposed this back in 2025.

02:41:17.240 The S&P 500 was up about 16%.

02:41:20.200 Meanwhile, gold rose more than 65%.

02:41:23.500 And silver, believe it or not, actually surged well over 144%.

02:41:28.600 And so this is why I trust my friends at Golden Crest Metals.

02:41:32.960 They're a five-star rated company trusted by thousands of Americans nationwide.

02:41:37.980 And right now, Golden Crest is offering a free information kit

02:41:41.400 that explains how to own physical gold and silver directly,

02:41:45.480 as well as how to add physical gold or silver to an IRA or your 401k tax and penalty free.

02:41:52.540 And for a limited time, qualified purchases may also include up to $25,000 in free silver

02:41:59.960 plus free shipping or secure storage.

02:42:03.340 So, if you would like to understand better your options

02:42:06.660 and act with prudence and wisdom while you still have the chance,

02:42:10.240 then go to goldencrestmetals.com. Again, that's goldencrestmetals.com, or you can call

02:42:17.760 888-891-3916 to get a free information kit and speak with someone directly today.

02:42:28.800 All right, welcome back. We're going to go ahead and dive right in. First Super Chat from Dakota

02:42:32.880 Davis. He sent in $5. We appreciate you watching and giving. He asked this,

02:42:37.240 wouldn't the law of liberty permit christians to hold the new christian right view that would be

02:42:42.440 our view without it being a sin and wouldn't uh ruslam and god logic view be binding the

02:42:48.220 conscience god bless uh avery i'm going to give that right back to you because that's kind of a

02:42:51.840 question for you guys is this binding the conscience to say you would must uh that someone

02:42:56.980 can't affirm what we affirmed in other words uh should is are you binding the conscience to say

02:43:02.600 that a Christian must promote

02:43:04.560 or be for interracial marriage?

02:43:08.160 So our position is simply that

02:43:10.600 if you can have your preference

02:43:13.080 in regards to interracial marriage,

02:43:16.100 like if you want that for yourself or not

02:43:18.920 or, you know, is your cup of tea or not,

02:43:21.200 however, what you cannot do

02:43:22.660 is say that this goes against the Bible,

02:43:25.520 that this goes against God's design.

02:43:27.080 That's what we're saying that you cannot do.

02:43:29.720 Yeah, just to reiterate,

02:43:31.240 no problem with anyone

02:43:33.540 having their preferences

02:43:34.380 and also preferences

02:43:37.140 in the other direction 0.99

02:43:37.880 if your daughters all of a sudden 0.99

02:43:39.840 want to marry a black man 0.99

02:43:40.740 I don't have a problem 0.91

02:43:41.420 with that either

02:43:41.840 right so I think the issue

02:43:43.200 is when we're taking preference

02:43:44.580 and we're making prescription

02:43:45.820 and I don't see any evidence

02:43:47.760 of that in scripture

02:43:48.880 so no we're not saying

02:43:49.580 you got to go promote

02:43:50.400 interracial marriage

02:43:51.980 that was never my position 0.99

02:43:53.660 and I don't think

02:43:55.040 that I don't even think

02:43:56.200 it's a tenable debate topic

02:43:57.160 yeah

02:43:57.480 moving right on

02:43:58.620 I'm going to kind of

02:43:59.120 just go around the table

02:44:00.160 and that's the question

02:44:00.800 is specifically to one of the debaters uh drew petty 8293 sent a super chat does it fall into

02:44:06.560 cons i'm going to have this for you antonio cons categorical imperative the categorical imperative

02:44:11.420 is only do something if you could reasonably want everyone else to do the same thing in the

02:44:16.040 same situation yeah that's an interesting question um i guess i i would more think this is a question

02:44:22.000 for russalon and avery in the sense of uh okay so your position is that interracial marriage is good

02:44:27.160 that you're generally for it, although you sort of allow for preference.

02:44:32.620 And so there's this idea of, it's a Kantian idea, it's not necessarily a Christian idea,

02:44:37.320 but the idea that you shouldn't do something if you wouldn't want everyone to do it.

02:44:42.840 How do you sort of reconcile that perspective, that Kantian perspective, with your view?

02:44:47.180 Yeah, I don't follow cons. I don't think that's a tenable position.

02:44:51.740 I follow a Christian virtue ethic.

02:44:53.760 And so I think this is one of those things where if people want to get married,

02:44:56.640 I'm not speaking out against it

02:44:58.140 Because the scriptures don't speak out against it

02:45:00.060 I just think it's weird that we're talking Kant

02:45:02.160 And Darwin

02:45:03.440 Kant and the moral imperative

02:45:07.140 And we're backdooring

02:45:08.360 Everyone from Darwin to Kant

02:45:10.860 To these conversations

02:45:11.820 I just don't see any merit to that

02:45:13.880 There's a Christian virtue ethic laid out in scripture 1.00

02:45:16.900 And I'm going to follow scripture over Kant

02:45:19.040 Respectfully

02:45:19.580 Let the record state we never cited Kant

02:45:21.920 I know you did

02:45:22.620 This is what I mean by weird backdoored stuff

02:45:25.820 I want to be really clear with that, not even for you guys,

02:45:28.160 but some of our followers would say, I've seen guys.

02:45:31.820 These aren't necessarily followers, but your argument would be a lot better

02:45:35.520 if you just embraced evolution, to which I say, no, I'm a Christian.

02:45:39.000 Done.

02:45:40.120 No, we believe, I believe that the earth is somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 years old,

02:45:44.840 that God created the earth in six literal 24-hour days.

02:45:48.100 He made man on the sixth day, and everyone is descended from Adam.

02:45:51.580 And then the second go-around, everyone's descended from Noah, 0.73

02:45:53.940 and one of his three sons but kind of like a ken ham argument so we don't need darwin i say all

02:45:59.620 that to say we're not bringing in con and we're not bringing in darwin we don't need darwin here's

02:46:02.900 here's a funny thing so we all like evangelicals are like ken ham's the man you know i've taken my

02:46:07.360 kids to the ark encounter you know we love it you know it's i'd like to see like a nephilim display

02:46:11.660 of them drowning to be more accurate but ken ham won't allow it um and so anyways i i like all

02:46:17.500 that but one of the big arguments that we're all like yeah get him ken ham and he's debating you

02:46:21.620 bill nye or something like that is he say you know well here's you know what the atheist would

02:46:26.120 say how could you have all these species we have you know millions of species on the ark you know

02:46:31.380 the bible gives the measurements the ark's only this big there's no way you could do it and ken

02:46:34.560 ham says you know well you don't have to have multiple thousand species of dogs all you need

02:46:39.340 is two dogs and from those dogs each producing to its kind so you don't have macro evolution not

02:46:44.480 darwinianism but there is micro adaption and you get all the way to great danes to poodles and

02:46:50.160 chihuahuas and so my point is i think you can biologically have all human beings all the same

02:46:56.440 species all made in the image of god all descended from adam and descended from noah but you can

02:47:00.980 still have uh biological distinctions in peoples and and i think that was we see that so it's not

02:47:07.000 just a social construct and i don't need darwin to prove that i i think that we can prove that

02:47:11.920 as ken ham proves with dogs from the bible i feel like i can prove a similar concept from the bible

02:47:18.360 as well. Okay. All right. Uh, I'm going to take this one. This next one is, uh, so actually Ben's

02:47:24.760 next comment. That's more for you, uh, Ruslan and Avery. And so I'm going to take this first Ben

02:47:29.540 MP seven, then I'll pass it to you. That's that one. And then we'll hit a, let's talk God. All

02:47:33.600 right. He's in a two super chats. The first one is, do you feel differently about your sons taking

02:47:36.840 a wife from a different ethnicity than giving your daughters to the man of a different ethnicity? 0.86

02:47:41.100 I would say generally, yes. You think of, uh, the Israelites, for example, when they go into Jericho 0.89

02:47:45.560 and conquered. They were allowed to take, for example, war brides. There was a sense in which

02:47:49.820 they're brought in, they adopt, they bring their gods. But in giving a daughter in marriage,

02:47:53.860 especially in the old sense, there was a sense where she would take over. She would go to the 0.87

02:47:58.160 her, his father's house. She would go to their culture. She would go even sometimes even to 0.99

02:48:02.500 their gods. We see Leah stealing the gods from her father. And so generally, I would say there's a 0.58

02:48:07.060 little bit of a difference. And bringing in is typically more the way it goes than going out.

02:48:12.200 okay uh so then i'll pass it to you guys this next one for those who opposed or is this one

02:48:19.440 for us do you think i don't all right let's give you the next one let's talk god uh what is the

02:48:23.760 issue with boaz and ruth's interracial marriage hebrews and moabite i'm sorry guys most of these

02:48:30.540 are for us what is the issue right so they're saying like since you are generally opposed

02:48:36.580 what it would be the issue with that they're hebrew midianite isn't that interracial and

02:48:39.860 that's a problem there's not an issue um but i will point this out wes you and i have talked

02:48:44.340 about this that it is a little bit different than someone coming from the other side of the planet

02:48:48.380 thousands of and here's the deal like the ken ham argument that i just made with you know one

02:48:53.400 one female and one male dog on the ark and then you know over time you get different you know

02:48:58.600 not species but subspecies you know or whatever types of dogs still within its kind i would say

02:49:04.440 there's a couple things. Today, we are further removed. There's been more time for different

02:49:10.160 distinctions, even at a biological level, to develop. There's more time than in biblical

02:49:15.700 times, like, you know, Ruth being a Moabite. And two, because of planes, trains, and automobiles, 0.99

02:49:21.440 and, you know, technological innovation, and these kinds of things, as well as pretty funky,

02:49:25.520 that I don't like political policies that have eroded borders, and mass immigration,

02:49:30.280 these kinds of things. It's very different than in biblical times. A lot of what you're looking at

02:49:35.460 is, and I'm not saying there aren't any exceptions to this, but a lot of the examples

02:49:39.400 from this tribe over here to the Israelite tribe, these are like 60, 80 mile distances.

02:49:47.500 New Jersey to Connecticut.

02:49:48.560 Yeah. And you're talking about maybe a thousand years removed from Noah, right? Or 1500 years

02:49:53.940 removed from Noah. So you're Noah functioning as a second Adam. I know Christ is spiritually 0.78

02:49:58.540 speaking, the true final second Adam. But Noah, in the sense of creationally and physically,

02:50:04.360 a second Adam, it all starts over with him. So you're talking about everyone descending from 0.83

02:50:09.460 one man the second time, Noah, and 1,500 years removed instead of more like 4,500 years. That's

02:50:17.440 a big time difference. And we're migrating 60 miles instead of 6,000 miles. There are some

02:50:25.500 big differences. That's just at the, you know, talking about the physical side. Spiritually,

02:50:29.860 the moral component, I would say there is no issue. It was a full-fledged rejection.

02:50:36.900 When she says, your God will be my God and your people will be my people, what that implies is to 0.90

02:50:44.280 fully embrace the God of Israel and the people of Israel, there's a full rejection of the Moabite 0.58

02:50:49.900 gods and the Moabite peoples. And so this is what we call true assimilation. She's assimilating 0.99

02:50:55.660 religiously, linguistically, culturally, at every level. But here's the thing, and this is,

02:51:03.140 I don't think it's a coincidence. I understand it's descriptive, not prescriptive, but

02:51:06.320 it's still there, and I think there's something there. Ruth doesn't become queen of Israel,

02:51:11.960 and I understand patriarchy. I'm patriarchal. But even her first son, right? It's Ruth and Boaz.

02:51:17.460 they beget Obed. And then Obed, he begets Jesse, and Jesse begets David. By the time you get to 0.75

02:51:24.060 David, and I think this is my answer to what is a heritage American and how it gets into

02:51:29.360 multiple generations. By the time you get to David, he is 87.5% Hebrew. And he's a man after

02:51:37.540 God's own heart, and he is fit to be the second king in Israel, seceding Saul. And so my point is,

02:51:45.120 even in the case of Ruth, number one, you have full rejection, full assimilation. Number two, 0.69

02:51:49.820 only, you know, centuries removed from Noah and not 4,500 years removed from Noah. Number three,

02:51:58.300 also a much smaller distance. And number four, it's not until the fourth generation that God

02:52:05.320 sees fit that one of her descendants would be a true Israelite in every sense of the word fit

02:52:10.900 to sit on the throne. That would be my answer. You guys have any response to that?

02:52:15.120 before we just get to the next question.

02:52:16.960 Any thoughts?

02:52:17.980 Okay.

02:52:18.660 All right.

02:52:19.580 We'll get to Ben, MP7's second question.

02:52:21.600 Antonio, I'll give this to you.

02:52:22.820 For those that are opposed, I think it's to our side.

02:52:25.060 Where do you draw the line?

02:52:26.060 Swedes and Italians are different people 0.99

02:52:27.560 but have more in common with each other than with Africans. 0.74

02:52:30.200 What is a biblical principle for this? 0.99

02:52:31.760 Well, hopefully we've tried to demonstrate

02:52:35.660 that the whole conversation around interracial marriage

02:52:38.760 is a matter of not prescription,

02:52:42.080 but a matter of prudence and wisdom.

02:52:45.120 And so when we think about this, for example, there's this concept of compatibility we referenced several times, the idea or the principle that when a man and a woman come together, that they ought to be more compatible on all of the dimensions that we've talked about, from language to custom and tradition.

02:53:04.080 I think Ruslan raised the point of geography even.

02:53:08.200 And so we believe that in line with that principle, right, the idea that you should be more compatible and not less, that is the basis with which you could judge in a particular sense or at the individual level whether something is better or worse or more ideal or less ideal.

02:53:27.520 So that's how I'd answer that.

02:53:29.980 This idea that you can make a moral claim on the basis of a gradient.

02:53:34.620 You can make a moral claim on the basis of something being better or worse.

02:53:37.240 Can you make a moral claim in that culture is often the most important aspect?

02:53:43.740 And yes, not all culture is the same.

02:53:45.740 And my concern is that oftentimes there's an inflation of race and culture.

02:53:50.340 I've heard it with the constant rhetoric against black people, conflating all black culture is monolithic.

02:53:56.120 I've heard it consistently, right?

02:53:57.520 So Christian culture, black folks raised in an upper middle class dual family household 0.91

02:54:02.580 are going to be way different than folks raised in Chicago. 0.99

02:54:05.120 Totally different cultures. 1.00

02:54:06.600 Both race are black, right? 1.00

02:54:08.840 You see my concern there? 0.99

02:54:10.440 Do you believe, just a quick follow-up, do you believe that upper class suburban black,

02:54:16.080 you know, a black family would have any distinctions culturally from an upper, suburban sort of

02:54:20.880 upper class white family?

02:54:22.320 They'd have minor distinctions, but I think there's families that live in the same neighborhood,

02:54:26.080 celebrate the same holidays.

02:54:26.980 Yeah, certainly. 0.92

02:54:27.700 And you've got a lot of white kids that use black slang. 0.67

02:54:30.720 I mean, how many times have we said, what is it, banger, OG?

02:54:33.360 We used a lot of black slang today.

02:54:34.700 Like, if we're going to be honest, right?

02:54:35.940 So I think there's overlaps of culture, and there's stuff that white culture borrows from 0.69

02:54:39.960 black people, and black culture assimilates to white culture. 0.69

02:54:42.860 Yeah.

02:54:43.320 And again, these are very broad.

02:54:45.100 Yeah, yeah.

02:54:45.320 And we didn't really get into this, but I do think it should be said that there's different

02:54:49.820 levels of analysis.

02:54:50.720 like you might agree that race is more of more of a blunt at the higher level or broader level

02:54:55.800 of analysis and then of course we would i think both agree that you can sort of double click into

02:54:59.680 that and say okay of this race you know of for the black race we'll take that example and you have

02:55:05.400 within the continent of africa you have a lot of people that are a part of the black race at that

02:55:10.460 level of analysis but then of course you can go in and see west africans and east africans yeah

02:55:14.700 see the distinction i think the hard part is that africans don't identify like that like when i'm

02:55:18.640 talking to Ethiopians, they don't, they identify very different from Ghanians and Nigerians. They

02:55:22.640 don't even see themselves like that. They don't see themselves as black? No, not generally. I've

02:55:26.300 sat down with Ethiopians recently, evangelical Ethiopians, second, third generation, had a

02:55:29.720 beautiful conversation in America today. And they said, yeah, our parents never really identified

02:55:33.520 as black. This is fairly common within certain pockets of black people. So that's what I'm

02:55:38.440 saying. So like, I think a lot of the conflation that's often happening is a hasty generalization

02:55:42.540 fallacy where you're pulling out 0.5% of black men that commit all the violent crime. And then

02:55:48.280 you're saying well black men are more violent and it's like yes i understand proportionality

02:55:52.120 but this is going back to the uh correlation is not causation aspect of things just because some 0.81

02:55:58.260 black men a very small percentage of black men commit a lot of crime that doesn't mean the

02:56:01.040 average black man is going to commit a crime when you factor in culture upbringing household dual 0.91

02:56:05.960 like your experience as a black man is going to be very different coming from a dual parent 0.98

02:56:10.200 christian household than someone that's brought up you know with one parent growing up in poverty

02:56:15.040 very stark contrasts right yeah so i just wanted to make that distinction between culture and race

02:56:20.620 because i think it's it's often conflated and i think if i'm gonna be honest if i'm gonna just

02:56:24.280 like give you guys the most charitable view i think what we really agree on is culture as the

02:56:29.180 ultimate culture and faith the intertwining of culture and faith and i think faith as the north

02:56:34.180 star and the highest priority than culture yeah i actually i completely agree i think that's where

02:56:38.800 if i had to synthesize what's where we're sort of disagreeing it's that of all of the dimensions in

02:56:43.640 marriage that you would say, hey, you would agree that it's better to be more compatible with your

02:56:47.320 wife. You're not going to make like a yin and yang approach. Well, me and my wife are very

02:56:50.400 opposites. Yeah, right. But in terms of geography, all these different elements you can imagine. 0.73

02:56:55.860 And we're simply saying race is also an element of your identity, which I think, which I made the

02:57:00.640 point, I think black people understand. I think a lot of different people understand that around

02:57:03.760 the world. And I'm saying that's one more sort of element of identity that ought to be considered

02:57:09.780 with respect to compatibility.

02:57:11.060 And I would have no problem

02:57:12.920 with anything you just said

02:57:14.080 until you go, 0.99

02:57:15.600 I'm against interracial marriage 1.00

02:57:16.940 or the scriptures, 1.00

02:57:18.600 this is not God's normative design

02:57:20.020 for interracial marriage.

02:57:20.680 Does that make sense? 0.98

02:57:21.600 Do you think it's better or worse

02:57:22.640 to be more compatible with your wife?

02:57:24.240 I think it depends on what we're talking about

02:57:25.500 being compatible.

02:57:26.240 I just listed some of the dimensions,

02:57:27.820 language, customs, culture, identity.

02:57:30.140 Yeah, I'm saying you could have

02:57:31.180 all of those things

02:57:32.040 and be of different races.

02:57:33.760 You could be more compatible.

02:57:34.960 I agree that it occurs.

02:57:36.040 My question, I'll ask it again.

02:57:37.620 So therefore, it is not against God's design.

02:57:40.500 I'll ask it again.

02:57:41.500 Do you think it's better or worse to be more compatible with your wife?

02:57:44.020 You would say, yes, I do.

02:57:45.600 Do you think race is an element of identity?

02:57:48.420 I think race is a junk drawer term that we've created that is used way broader today than

02:57:56.140 it has been historically, that has been in Scripture, and that it is used worldwide today. 0.96

02:58:00.000 Should black people call themselves black in America?

02:58:02.040 I think they can call themselves whatever they want. 0.89

02:58:03.400 If they want to call themselves Haitian, if they want to call themselves Ghanaian, Nigerian,

02:58:06.420 whatever they want to call themselves. 1.00

02:58:07.300 Descendants of slaves, whatever you want to call themselves.

02:58:09.080 So the idea, what I'm trying to lay out, 0.87

02:58:12.680 is that you acquiesce the idea you should be more compatible with your wife.

02:58:16.340 You recognize that race, though conflated, I think that's the term you use,

02:58:19.980 though conflated, race is an element of identity.

02:58:22.060 And basically, in the syllogism, we're putting those two things together

02:58:24.700 and saying, okay, race is an element of identity

02:58:26.780 that should be considered with respect and prudence

02:58:29.620 to compatibility with your spouse.

02:58:31.640 That's the point. That's literally our whole argument.

02:58:33.440 But the Martin Bailey fallacy, yet again, that all sounds sensible.

02:58:36.420 hey, you should consider race, you should consider culture,

02:58:38.680 you should consider upbringing, you should consider combality, 1.00

02:58:40.980 then I'm against interracial marriage and it is incompatible with God's design. 0.99

02:58:44.980 Given two choices, are you for, promoting, encouraging, advancing, or against, 0.98

02:58:49.260 and then immediately clarifying it by saying,

02:58:54.040 I normally or generally believe that it goes against God's ordinary or normative.

02:58:59.460 I think it's a false binary that you allowed yourself to be pushed into, Joel.

02:59:02.320 I don't think you even need to entertain that binary.

02:59:05.640 area. Nathan, can you scroll down to the

02:59:07.800 $99 super chat? I want to honor this

02:59:09.900 person that wrote in

02:59:11.920 the question they had. I'll give it to whichever party

02:59:13.900 it is for. It's highlighted in yellow.

02:59:15.840 You can't miss it.

02:59:17.540 I see green.

02:59:20.380 Dr. John sent in

02:59:21.760 a $99 super chat, very generous,

02:59:23.840 and said, do not be unequally

02:59:25.920 yoked applies to more than salvation?

02:59:28.320 If yes, applies to

02:59:29.840 ethnicity and culture more than vague term

02:59:31.780 race, which does seem to map onto ethnicity

02:59:33.940 to some degree.

02:59:35.060 If any of this is correct,

02:59:36.160 then there seems to be arguing

02:59:37.220 degrees of being unyoked, right?

02:59:40.600 I actually think that's a good assessment.

02:59:41.800 That would be the position you're arguing.

02:59:43.800 There's a disconnect.

02:59:45.720 And so we're arguing degrees of disconnect

02:59:47.300 where they matter,

02:59:48.280 what we can argue is God's normative design.

02:59:49.940 So thank you again

02:59:50.660 for that generous super chat.

02:59:51.540 We'll go to the top and keep taking them.

02:59:53.960 All right.

02:59:55.360 This dude rocks.

02:59:56.380 He says it's for the opposition.

02:59:58.280 I think that's us though.

02:59:59.560 We're in the affirmative.

03:00:00.600 He says this is for the opposition,

03:00:02.020 but I think he's asking this to us.

03:00:03.480 you guys can tell me what you think. He said this, opposition, what is the biblical exegetical reason

03:00:08.100 for it being inherently wrong for one race or another to be eventually diluted away from a

03:00:13.340 current DNA? Are we relying on the table of Babel? And that would be an argument I made in my opening

03:00:17.920 statement that it would be generally sad to see any number of groups of people lose their

03:00:22.060 distinctiveness, lose their identity. And I would root that in scripture, so he's asking for scripture.

03:00:26.780 One of the greatest judgments that can come across individuals and even nations is that they would

03:00:30.660 have no posterity, that Abraham and Sarah, that infertility was the greatest curse on their life.

03:00:35.780 And later on, we see different judgments, and they relate to having no posterity. So if you look at

03:00:41.120 a people and you say, and then their posterity in many ways, either they don't have any, or the ones

03:00:47.640 that resemble them go so far away that they keep none of the customs and habits and religions of

03:00:51.620 the people. I think all through the Bible, they recognized, no, it's important. I understand that 0.85

03:00:56.440 interracial marriage still produces offspring, valid offspring, children made in the image of God.

03:01:00.660 But I think that's what he's getting at. 0.54

03:01:01.920 That's how from the Bible, I would argue it.

03:01:04.620 Okay, next.

03:01:06.300 So this dude rocks again.

03:01:07.800 He said, to in favor, which is probably to Ruslan and Avery.

03:01:12.880 What can we draw from Scripture that God forced cultural differences by language in Babel

03:01:19.860 and encourages it through genetic advantages to racial kin and creates difficulties otherwise? 0.64

03:01:28.240 Genetic advantages.

03:01:30.660 What are they saying?

03:01:33.000 I don't know.

03:01:34.500 What do you think, Wes?

03:01:35.860 Genetic advantages.

03:01:37.220 Yeah, I didn't bring them up, the literature on this.

03:01:39.580 And just for the record, I have a degree in neuroscience and behavior from Columbia University,

03:01:42.940 my master's in public health from the University of Texas.

03:01:45.140 So I've authored peer-reviewed papers.

03:01:47.300 When you look at the peer-reviewed literature, there's some literature suggesting that children

03:01:51.320 that are the product of two races coming together, as far as lifespan goes, as far as depression,

03:01:55.960 anxiety other elements of identity and behavioral problems that they experience more of those you

03:02:01.460 could also think of organ and bone marrow donation that when someone is mixed race it's much harder

03:02:06.140 to find someone to be a donor and so what he might be saying is he's asking you guys what do you make

03:02:10.820 of those biological realities that objectively someone that is mixed race the offspring of two

03:02:15.500 races that they will not be able to receive bone marrow from their father or their mother and

03:02:20.640 they're gonna have to look and there's stories about this far and wide to find a match yeah

03:02:24.900 again, is a fallacy.

03:02:26.940 Two, we need more registries for interracial people. 1.00

03:02:29.900 So I would put yourself on a bone marrow transplant 0.99

03:02:31.920 to more registries.

03:02:32.740 Three, have more families, have bigger families, excuse me. 0.97

03:02:35.640 Have interracial people, that's how you fix it. 1.00

03:02:37.560 If you have kids, your kids are 25% connected on bone marrow. 1.00

03:02:41.720 The more kids you have, the more likely you are

03:02:43.140 to have more options for bone marrow transplant.

03:02:44.780 I think we would all champion bigger families.

03:02:47.160 Amen?

03:02:47.720 Yeah.

03:02:47.920 I think that's how we fix that.

03:02:49.340 Well, if I could, I think the question,

03:02:51.460 and so it's treating the story of Babel

03:02:54.560 and then the genetic element separately,

03:02:56.740 but I think the question is more of

03:02:58.140 what do you actually make of that

03:02:59.800 with respect to the genetic advantages

03:03:01.980 in terms of God's design, if you will,

03:03:04.200 and the way of... 0.91

03:03:04.780 You're saying because mixed-race people

03:03:07.360 have a harder time getting bone marrow,

03:03:12.240 therefore they don't have the same genetic advantage?

03:03:16.380 What is God saying in that?

03:03:18.040 That's what that question is asking.

03:03:19.180 Like, how can we interpret nature to better understand the character of God and God's purpose in creation?

03:03:24.980 I don't think that that's telling anything about God's design when it comes to humans getting together interracially.

03:03:31.500 I don't think that has anything to do with what God has ordered.

03:03:36.420 I mean, like, we're fallen and have genetic problems as just human beings, period.

03:03:41.620 Would that mean that God, you know, is God saying something in that we bleed and, you know, we get diseases?

03:03:47.980 we're in a fallen world. 0.77

03:03:50.240 It starts sounding like eugenics, if I'm going to be honest.

03:03:52.420 Like, only maintain people because they have a specific leader in me,

03:03:56.060 and it's like, it gets very dicey.

03:03:56.840 Well, to be fair with incest, God says not to do it,

03:03:59.400 and it destroys people.

03:04:01.780 It produces individuals that are severely pertinent.

03:04:04.160 There's a genetic reason. 0.78

03:04:05.020 Not to that degree, interracial marriage, but we surmise from that. 0.57

03:04:07.620 God's also telling us.

03:04:08.600 He didn't just write it in Scripture.

03:04:10.040 He wrote it in nature. 0.95

03:04:11.080 Don't marry your sister to a lesser degree, a much lesser degree.

03:04:14.760 To a lesser degree, I think what they're asking is, 0.54

03:04:16.900 well in a racial marriage we see some of these also disadvantages to which you would say i don't

03:04:21.280 view that as the evidence being strong enough to say that's revealing anything yeah there's all

03:04:25.140 kinds of anomalies and there's people that have genetic diseases for all sorts of random stuff

03:04:29.120 right so yeah yeah some some of it can't be helped but like when you were saying get diseases or

03:04:33.680 bleed or something like i feel like often um often god is telling us something but like if you bleed

03:04:39.860 every time you cut yourself with a knife i think god through nature is saying stop cutting yourself

03:04:43.920 What about the families that have, let's say, the mother and the grandmother

03:04:50.860 and have a history of getting cancer through the family?

03:04:54.940 Does that mean that God is saying, is God saying something there

03:04:58.500 within that same family of the same culture, same race?

03:05:01.660 They smoke a pack a day, maybe.

03:05:03.860 In terms of your diet and exercise.

03:05:07.140 Maybe.

03:05:08.100 There could be things.

03:05:09.140 Maybe.

03:05:09.480 So I wouldn't say inherently, but maybe.

03:05:11.700 It depends.

03:05:12.480 All right.

03:05:13.460 Next.

03:05:13.920 James Strong said in $5, he said this. 0.97

03:05:16.300 I think this is a silly comment. 0.70

03:05:17.860 I think it's for us. 0.89

03:05:18.760 He said, I'm 50% Mexican and my wife is 25% Italian.

03:05:21.700 Do we have enough shared whiteness for our marriage to be in God's normative?

03:05:25.520 Yes, you do. 0.93

03:05:26.720 So in that scenario, I think what you're implying by saying your wife is 25% Italian

03:05:31.900 is you're implying that the other 75% is European. 0.58

03:05:35.900 And then with you being 50% Mexican, you're implying that the other 50% is European. 0.56

03:05:40.500 So in that scenario, you have 75% white. 0.68

03:05:43.680 you have 50% white, and so what you're going to end up having in that scenario is whatever it is,

03:05:50.220 it's 67.5, I think, right, would be, you know, the makeup. Yeah, I think that that is a great

03:05:58.660 match. Again, remember our position. The position is that we're not drawing a harsh condemnation on

03:06:04.460 interracial marriage, period. But if you, you're obviously being sarcastic, but if you were actually

03:06:09.380 asking me um and saying look um i'm i'm mixed um i have you know um a mixed makeup and this woman 0.71

03:06:17.680 has a mixed makeup um but uh we're both interracial to some extent and the mexican thing honestly

03:06:24.620 even that's debatable uh you know whether or not that's actually mixed race uh and we you know we

03:06:29.100 could get into that but the point is um you're looking at 50 and 75 are like the the two greatest

03:06:36.320 compositions for her being 75% and you 50%. Yeah, I think that's great. I know you don't mean this

03:06:44.560 as a serious question, but yeah. All right. Godlogic, I'm going to toss this to you so you

03:06:48.980 guys get a chance to go. Godlogic, this is from Luke, a bunch of letters. All right. He says,

03:06:56.220 how does Leviticus 25, 44 through 46 relate to 1934? I'll read it for you quick. Leviticus 25,

03:07:02.520 44 through 46 says as for your male and female slaves whom you have you may buy male and female

03:07:07.480 slaves from among the nations that are around you you may also buy them from the strangers who

03:07:11.920 sojourner with you and their clans that are with you who have been born in your land and they may

03:07:15.360 be your property you may bequeath them to your sons after you inherit in a possession after you

03:07:20.200 to inherit them as a possession forever you may make slaves of them but over your brothers the

03:07:23.860 people of israel you shall not rule over one another ruthlessly and leviticus 19 uh leviticus

03:07:30.680 19 i think you cited it in your opening statement true it's the one that you were citing and saying

03:07:35.320 you treat them exactly the same and so he's just pointing out that uh you actually don't yeah okay

03:07:41.280 so not not fully yeah in context uh the ones that they take as slaves and the ones that they keep

03:07:47.600 as slaves would be the ones who they battled and captured and uh the ones they contended against 0.69

03:07:53.160 for the land so that that would be different from a foreigner who's coming from a far-off land which

03:07:58.880 Leviticus 19 talks about, Exodus 1.00

03:08:01.740 talks about, 12 talks about

03:08:03.260 where a foreigner comes

03:08:05.240 and clings to Israel and joins

03:08:07.660 to Israel and converts and

03:08:09.000 turns to Yahweh. 0.92

03:08:11.580 They weren't in battle or opposition

03:08:13.380 against Yahweh, so therefore they weren't

03:08:15.340 captive and taken captive as slaves.

03:08:17.780 So those are two different contexts of slavery. 1.00

03:08:20.380 Foreigners, sorry. 1.00

03:08:21.680 Alright, next. 1.00

03:08:23.220 My eyes are going. BriBri Cruz

03:08:24.920 sent a super chat and said,

03:08:26.920 What biblical evidence do they hold to suggest that interracial marriage is wrong?

03:08:30.460 I think that's on our side.

03:08:31.460 First of all, we're not saying it's always wrong or a sin.

03:08:33.700 We're saying it is not normative.

03:08:35.260 And see the last three hours for our argument.

03:08:39.180 Ann Favord said,

03:08:40.660 When you talk about the sons of Noah and their spread to different regions of the earth,

03:08:44.540 where does it say their offspring should not marry?

03:08:47.580 Antonio, Joel?

03:08:48.980 It doesn't.

03:08:50.140 I mean, that's what we've argued the whole time.

03:08:51.620 So there's no explicit condemnation against interracial marriage.

03:08:56.920 Hence, we do not explicitly condemn. 1.00

03:08:59.260 Correct.

03:08:59.800 All right, next.

03:09:01.000 All right.

03:09:02.460 Tanner Davis sent a $10 super chat and said,

03:09:05.260 if distinct nations are part of God's good design,

03:09:07.440 then naturally raises the question of whether

03:09:09.440 and how they should be preserved with their distinctions.

03:09:11.820 How do you answer, or are nations not good?

03:09:16.460 That's probably for Ruslan and Avery.

03:09:19.460 Can you reread that for me?

03:09:20.580 I'm sorry, that was kind of mouthy.

03:09:21.820 If distinct nations are part of God's good design,

03:09:25.240 this naturally raises the question of whether and how they should be preserved with their

03:09:29.840 distinctions how do you answer or are nations not good i think the bible presupposes borders but i

03:09:35.740 think borders evolve and change and people grow and new nations get formed and people come together

03:09:41.640 i think you have if we're talking about nations and revelation again we're seeing the end of

03:09:45.980 revelation and yet there's a beautiful tapestry weaved together and god's providence knows all

03:09:52.680 this. He knew that the people of Brazil were going to be mixed race. He knew the people of Puerto

03:09:55.860 Rico, well, Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States, you know, feeling like Mexico. So I think 0.95

03:09:59.900 we see this already happening in God's providence. That's, in my opinion, that's, I mean, that's a

03:10:05.940 Calvinistic answer. You see the same thing within the nation of Israel itself, like the tribes have

03:10:12.560 their own borders, but that doesn't mean that they're separated from each other. So I wouldn't

03:10:16.120 say that borders equal separation. You can have distinction. There's distinction even within

03:10:21.100 Israel, yet there's unity. So just because there are distinct races or cultures and stuff like

03:10:26.260 that with their borders and their lands and their boundaries, doesn't mean that they're separate

03:10:29.960 from the others and can't intermingle and mix and share and come together. That's not what that

03:10:35.940 means. All right. Another question from Brie Brie Cruz. This is for you, Antonio. The biracial

03:10:42.020 panelist will never have a child who's one pure race. So who will his children marry that will 0.99

03:10:46.800 be acceptable. Yeah, I mean, I think I felt like I laid out the position. I think there's a

03:10:54.680 consideration of prudence and wisdom and compatibility. And it's not about racial

03:10:59.160 purity. We're not race essentialists. So I'm not saying if you're not 100% white, then you're not

03:11:03.860 white. And so, yeah, I would say my biracial, can you say that still, I guess, about a 25% black

03:11:11.060 Yeah, you can. There's 25% in there, baby. Mariah Carey's black. Your kid's black. 0.91

03:11:17.780 Right. Yeah. So my biracial children will make the determination along with my help 0.63

03:11:26.460 on the sort of dimension of wisdom, on the dimension of prudence. Who is the best spouse

03:11:32.960 for you? How do they relate to you? Et cetera. All right. Super chat from James Strong. They 0.99

03:11:39.060 said, if interracial marriage is against God's design, quotes, that would be the position that 0.94

03:11:43.380 we took. Why does mixing ancestries predictably boost genetic diversity and reduce recessive 0.95

03:11:49.140 disease risk? Does that suggest it's within creation's design? And so what's referred to

03:11:53.380 here is called in-group, out-group depression. So you can marry too close. That, like Tay-Sachs

03:11:58.880 disease, which is common in Ashkenazi Jews. You marry close, you're likely going to have it. It's 1.00

03:12:03.900 fatal. It's terrible to have. We already talked about some of the reasons too far might not be

03:12:08.260 ideal either the ideal is actually kind of about the tribal level so it's not super far away and

03:12:14.880 it's not super close either i think genetically some of that is communicating yeah don't marry

03:12:19.580 your first cousin don't marry your sister also don't go halfway across the world and marry someone

03:12:25.160 very biologically distinct i do want to give you guys a chance to chime in on that question

03:12:29.340 so mixing ancestries it boosts genetic diversity reduces recessive disease risk do you think that

03:12:35.420 suggest that's creationist design. I think that's a great argument. I went pretty deep in the rabbit

03:12:39.460 hole of the genetic aspect of this in case it were to come up. The interesting part about this is

03:12:44.240 Andrew Wilson made the argument that the reason why this is thrown out, standard deviation IQ 0.83

03:12:50.980 lower in sub-Saharan Africa, is because of cousin marriage in Islam and Islam spreading all over

03:12:57.080 Africa, right? So that is a interbreeding issue of what you're just describing, right?

03:13:02.940 too close in group yeah in group too close in group marrying your cousin very common in islam

03:13:07.580 according to andrew wilson and that is why there's a standard deviation iq test lower in

03:13:13.120 saharan africa when you look at all the other studies of the transracial studies you start

03:13:17.740 seeing that the disparity when accounting for environment are not as huge as standard deviation

03:13:22.640 talking about a couple iq points between white white folks black folks asian folks and mixed

03:13:26.380 race, folks. I think that's a great argument, and I think, yeah, again, if folks want to

03:13:31.640 intermarry, I think that's awesome. Praise God for that.

03:13:35.580 All right. The other Paul sent in an Australian $10 super chat. We'll see that it converts to

03:13:39.780 in U.S. dollars. He said, question for the racial egalitarians. I'm just reading it,

03:13:43.560 not my words. He said, you assume biblicism, that moral norms only exist but they are clearly laid

03:13:49.040 out in Scripture. How did Abraham or any pre-Scripture man like Job know homosexuality

03:13:54.380 was evil um i think that we can uh look at what it said in um in genesis that that god lays this 0.65

03:14:05.020 principle that a man should leave his father and mother um and cleave to his wife and the two should

03:14:10.360 become one flesh and i think that that was a principle that has been that was probably passed

03:14:14.680 down even all the way to abraham so um that that's that would be my take on it i think it's a

03:14:21.140 it was it was a principle already laid there in the beginning yeah i just went down the rabbit

03:14:25.820 hole of how did moses write genesis and how did he have this information to write it you know way

03:14:30.280 later so i would agree with that and i would also add like i think if you're going to conflate

03:14:34.600 sex distinctions which are clear as day to race distinctions uh i think you're really in some

03:14:42.440 dicey water because i think he's making a more principle argument of how can we discern things

03:14:46.660 outside of scripture?

03:14:48.020 Like that's kind of

03:14:48.740 what he's getting at

03:14:49.380 is how would you know

03:14:50.720 in the absence of scripture

03:14:51.720 that something's good

03:14:52.500 or bad for you?

03:14:53.780 Yeah.

03:14:54.060 Can you be fruitful

03:14:54.960 and multiply?

03:14:56.300 Right?

03:14:56.800 There's parts that go together

03:14:58.180 and they create offspring.

03:14:59.160 I think it's pretty straightforward.

03:15:00.260 Which was a command

03:15:01.200 nature tells us.

03:15:02.040 They fit together.

03:15:02.960 Yeah.

03:15:03.120 There's nothing in nature

03:15:03.820 that says don't do that.

03:15:05.140 You know what I mean?

03:15:05.760 That was a command from God.

03:15:08.280 So I think that that passed down.

03:15:10.340 All right.

03:15:11.000 Jake, for you,

03:15:12.420 send in a $20 super chance.

03:15:13.820 Got a funny European logo

03:15:15.860 before it not good don't love it all right he said uh you don't let her you we're not off to a good

03:15:21.240 start here he said you claim race is real because it's visible measurable and useful in medicine

03:15:25.580 that's like saying counterfeit money is real currency because you can hold it and detect

03:15:29.600 features does race counterfeit the true division ethnicity there's a lot going on there i think

03:15:36.280 he's saying okay sure you can see race but the real division is ethnicity which to some degree

03:15:42.400 we would agree. But the ethnicity, 0.72

03:15:44.760 oh, we're all from JFET. Well,

03:15:46.320 you're Eastern European and you're British.

03:15:48.340 There's going to be a wide divide between the two that

03:15:50.200 still should be taken into account as you consider

03:15:52.300 marriage. Go ahead. Do you have something to say?

03:15:54.980 Yeah, I think

03:15:56.340 denying race is a factor. It's silly. 0.95

03:15:58.540 There is some degree of it, right? 0.86

03:16:00.980 Whether you call it a social construct

03:16:02.300 or whatever. But again, I

03:16:04.140 tend to see this, and forgive me if I'm not

03:16:06.360 answering the question, but I tend to

03:16:08.260 see race as just a placeholder

03:16:09.960 for the broader conversation.

03:16:12.400 Like, do you think it's more like a rule of thumb, like a heuristic?

03:16:15.760 It's like you can see sort of visually or phenotypically someone's black, but then it's like. 0.97

03:16:20.400 Yes, yes. 0.99

03:16:20.600 So like I could see that you're black. 0.97

03:16:22.240 Right. 0.98

03:16:22.600 Right.

03:16:23.220 But you're in a suit. 0.99

03:16:24.920 And if you weren't in a suit and you had on, I don't know, you had dreadlocks, you would probably pass as more black. 0.95

03:16:31.780 It would communicate something. 0.98

03:16:33.180 It would communicate something.

03:16:34.600 Yes, yes, yes. 0.88

03:16:35.400 So again, so that's why I keep going back to culture versus race, because some people just say you're a black man.

03:16:41.880 Yeah.

03:16:42.020 i don't know how you would identify if you're mixed race black identify as indian actually

03:16:46.460 well i mean like like not to open a can of worms but like sean king identifies as a black man

03:16:51.820 right but white is man alive yeah right so it's like uh you know so yeah go ahead uh so this is

03:16:58.340 for you guys super chat again from the other paul more australian dollars we'll see what happens

03:17:02.240 another question did god not intend the beautiful aesthetics of distinct races the red hair of the

03:17:07.540 kelts the ebony skin of the ugandans is this not a good reason for general discouragement of

03:17:13.880 intermixing so i think he's taking the same position not saying it's sin but generally

03:17:17.720 he's asking it for the for you guys this poses an argument worth considering uh no um i wouldn't say

03:17:23.720 that i mean um when you get let's say for example uh you get certain certain groups that come

03:17:29.300 together and they have a mixed baby with that would have text textually different hair than

03:17:35.640 there and it's really beautiful and different and unique um then can i say that okay is this god's

03:17:41.940 design then because of the beauty and uh the artistry and the uniqueness of this this new type

03:17:48.040 of texture of hair that's different from uh each each parent like i wouldn't i didn't even wouldn't

03:17:53.380 even necessarily take that stance so uh no but it does show that god is is is an artist and he is

03:18:01.560 unique in his design of people, and people are unique, people are different. That has nothing

03:18:07.700 to do with whether or not they can intermarry. All right. The Technician TV, Ruslan, this is

03:18:15.380 for you, he asked, Ruslan, do you, I think the word think is supposed to mean there, do you think

03:18:20.380 Jews and Christians worship the same God? And if so, is it okay for them, I think he's, I guess

03:18:25.800 Jews and Christians, is it okay for them to prohibit interracial marriage? He's probably 0.95

03:18:28.980 mostly speaking of jews that have typically only married within jewish ethnic group and so

03:18:33.860 maintained their identity over time yeah no jews and christians do not worship the same god

03:18:37.980 uh i think jews need to be converted and they need to be told about jesus and they need to

03:18:42.460 be evangelized we're specifically speaking of orthodox and rabbinic jews yeah right how mudic 0.90

03:18:48.420 judaism if we're talking about jews that became christian that's different right so i got friends 0.52

03:18:52.080 that are jewish that follow jesus and if so is it okay for them to prohibit interracial marriage

03:18:56.520 yeah i would never advise a christian woman to marry a jewish man if he's not following jesus

03:19:01.140 i think he's asking about jews themselves have always married within their own group to maintain

03:19:05.620 their jewish identity so they're kind of two disjointed questions but with the second one

03:19:09.600 let's take the example you just gave so for the jews that you are friends with ethnic ethnic jews

03:19:14.560 but they've actually converted to christianity religiously if if they uh said i don't want my 0.90

03:19:20.460 son or daughter to marry another christian who's not ethnically jewish um like it you know what do

03:19:27.260 you think sorry they're they're they're jewish but they're now following jesus and their children

03:19:32.660 are following jesus and their children are following jesus and there's another couple

03:19:35.820 their children are following jesus but this couple's not ethnically jewish and they say look

03:19:39.500 we want to preserve um our our jewish or now jewish christian identity uh-huh yeah i think

03:19:45.140 if they say that's still it's preference i say it's preference yeah yeah just like i got my my

03:19:49.380 black homies that want to have black kids and wanted to marry a black woman and i'm like cool

03:19:52.600 man that that is a interesting it's very common in black culture for you to say that but i guess 0.95

03:19:57.660 i guess uh this is what you're saying is if a person said i just want my children to be white

03:20:01.440 like me you would have no problem i don't have no problem i think i think i think if someone then

03:20:05.560 goes out of their way to say like okay like i had a buddy who was like was very particular about the

03:20:11.640 type of woman he went i'm not even talking about race right and then the more we talked and the

03:20:15.040 more we examined what you wanted i was like what you want is not who you are you want this petite

03:20:19.900 skinny girl and there's this other girl that really likes you and she's not your type hey but

03:20:24.220 she loves jesus she has great moral character you're aligned you're compatible maybe you should

03:20:29.340 consider dating her right and then they ended up getting married and having an amazing family i

03:20:33.240 would say that's a delusion in his mindset of his own self-worth he's 30 40 pounds overweight

03:20:37.240 you know what i mean yeah and so like yeah i challenged him in that and saying yeah you're

03:20:40.860 you're you're wild in like this whole like i want this type of woman but you're not that type of

03:20:44.460 man i'm not sure if that connects oh yeah yeah i was just it's just the idea that someone can

03:20:48.080 actually express just an in-group uh racial in-group preference and not be racist so let

03:20:52.620 me just say this and if there's an amazing woman that loves jesus and he's saying well she's not

03:20:58.260 black i would just i would probably i'll maybe say well maybe you want to reevaluate that right

03:21:02.260 like i was i would i would say be open to it but i wouldn't press him either way if he goes nope

03:21:06.200 i'm not married i don't want to marry a white woman or whatever i wouldn't i wouldn't it wouldn't

03:21:10.360 be a big deal for me i'd be like cool what do you think about jews um oh gosh i was really trying 0.94

03:21:15.380 not to talk about jews ethnically gosh darn it ethnic jews uh who would say not just for their

03:21:20.940 own children in terms of their preference but they would say that uh ethnically jewish people 0.90

03:21:25.440 have a moral obligation to marry other jews because they're such a small minority population 0.50

03:21:31.420 to preserve yeah the jewish race how they practice yeah i would say that's a that's a preference 1.00

03:21:36.120 No, that's an ought 0.99

03:21:39.200 Sorry, I missed the moral obligation 1.00

03:21:41.700 Ethnic Jews 1.00

03:21:43.240 Who say they have a moral obligation 0.99

03:21:45.140 To marry other Jews 1.00

03:21:46.680 And how do I feel about it? 1.00

03:21:49.540 Yeah, what do you think?

03:21:51.320 I mean, we're not even talking about kingdom people 1.00

03:21:53.140 They're not Christians

03:21:54.000 Yeah, I know, but so do you think that's wrong? 1.00

03:21:58.820 That's a great question

03:21:59.620 I am not even

03:22:01.280 Orienting that conversation

03:22:03.000 Because they don't follow the same God I follow

03:22:05.580 does that make sense i'm not trying to weasel my way out of the conference like it's such a it's

03:22:10.400 such a category error that category i won't even make it about you because i don't know your

03:22:15.080 position on this i haven't i haven't heard you talk about it but there are a lot of christians

03:22:18.920 who are you know they're dispensational zionists they're pretty gung-ho about israel maybe their

03:22:24.940 pastor is one of the thousand pastors that went on the sponsored israel trip you know for three

03:22:29.120 days and got their talking points and came back you know um yeah they're they're really big on

03:22:33.460 Israel and even as Christians

03:22:35.620 and non-ethnically Jewish people 0.77

03:22:37.560 they still

03:22:38.680 feel strongly that

03:22:41.020 Israel should not be diversified 1.00

03:22:43.680 Israel shouldn't have a bunch of 1.00

03:22:45.520 immigration and that 1.00

03:22:46.560 Jewish people should marry within their 0.71

03:22:49.480 race because we need Jews 1.00

03:22:51.180 to preserve. These pastors have said this?

03:22:53.640 There's documentation of this?

03:22:54.960 Yeah, pastors have

03:22:55.940 Oh gosh, I'm so sorry.

03:22:58.740 Have you been to Israel, Joel?

03:23:00.700 No. Have any of you guys been to Israel?

03:23:02.920 You guys know the majority of Israelis are Sephardic Jews,

03:23:06.620 and there's a lot of black Jews and all types of Jews.

03:23:08.340 Yeah, there's Sephardic, there's Ashkenazi.

03:23:09.920 Yeah, I'm aware there's some diversity in Israel.

03:23:12.540 Some diversity.

03:23:13.440 I mean, it's like 60% Sephardic Jews, and then there's like 20% Arabs.

03:23:17.200 The Ashkenazi Jews, the very small minority that actually practice all that stuff.

03:23:21.860 So, yeah, that to me is just weird because when I go to Israel,

03:23:25.320 I mean, I'm not trying to be this guy. 0.81

03:23:26.560 When I go to Israel, it looks a lot like America. 0.82

03:23:28.900 Like, I see black Ethiopian Jews. 0.98

03:23:31.320 I see Sephardic Jews that live more.

03:23:32.500 It's very progressive.

03:23:33.660 It's very diverse.

03:23:34.980 They're secular.

03:23:35.820 Yeah, they're secular.

03:23:36.780 Yeah.

03:23:37.600 This is a good question to end on.

03:23:38.800 Thank you to everyone else who put Super Chats in for the sake of time

03:23:41.420 and also staying on topic.

03:23:42.520 We weren't able to handle all of them, but we did our best.

03:23:44.720 Hopefully, we covered the best ones.

03:23:46.740 This is for both parties, so I think we'll start with ourselves.

03:23:49.540 Joel, you can take it for yourself as a pastor,

03:23:52.500 and then we'll hand it to you guys for the final word.

03:23:54.740 Michael Scogans, $10, said,

03:23:56.260 For both parties, I know that when you mix two different cultures together, friction can happen.

03:24:00.300 In light of that, how can the church help young couples navigate that friction?

03:24:04.280 Great question.

03:24:05.080 In a marriage. 0.59

03:24:06.520 I know that when you mix two different cultures together, friction can happen.

03:24:11.880 In light of that, how can the church help young couples navigate that friction?

03:24:18.400 So I take this as once the marriage has already been established.

03:24:23.680 I think so.

03:24:24.120 Yeah, so in the case of a married couple, husband and wife, they're already married.

03:24:29.360 They've already entered into that marriage, and they come from two very distinct cultures. 0.97

03:24:34.800 Then, yeah, like counseling them through that as best you can, rooting it in whatever is inherently sinful.

03:24:42.320 Sin is always the biggest problem.

03:24:43.900 It's just not the only problem.

03:24:45.800 So trying to get down to sin issues and encouraging from the scripture repentance wherever necessary with anything that's actually objectively sinful.

03:24:56.560 And then with everything else that might be a language barrier or different preferences or different customs or traditions.

03:25:03.840 And, you know, he celebrates Christmas and she doesn't or whatever.

03:25:08.220 I think with that, encouraging, you know, patience and they're just they're just going to have an extra set of extra homework than the, you know, the average couple that's more homogenous.

03:25:22.180 They're going to they might have to study up on language and they might have to study up on this, study up on that.

03:25:28.480 So they're just they're going to have to work harder. So encouraging diligence, encouraging vigilance and, you know, those kinds of things.

03:25:36.020 I agree with you

03:25:38.760 I'm not going to lie to you

03:25:39.960 with the last thing you said

03:25:41.820 I'm not going to lie to you

03:25:42.740 I have to say as the middle of the table

03:25:46.800 half black half white

03:25:48.180 I get to decide who wins

03:25:49.960 what

03:25:51.000 I think I remember this

03:25:54.660 Paul Washer sermon a long

03:25:56.840 time ago and I don't know if you guys

03:25:58.400 Paul Washer but he talks about

03:26:00.380 he's talking about marriage

03:26:02.500 when you get married it's like

03:26:04.480 it's like, when you become a Christian, 1.00

03:26:06.300 it's like walking into a tomb

03:26:07.560 and dying to a part of yourself.

03:26:09.340 And then when you get married,

03:26:10.520 it's like walking inside of another tomb

03:26:12.220 and dying to another part of yourself.

03:26:14.000 And then when you have kids,

03:26:15.180 it's like walking into a tomb of a tomb of a tomb

03:26:17.420 and dying to a part of yourself, right?

03:26:19.500 And he's talking about like,

03:26:20.940 hey man, when you get home, the real work begins.

03:26:23.340 When you get home, that's when you're really on call.

03:26:25.920 And when I think of that,

03:26:27.560 I think maybe some of this is maybe expectations, man.

03:26:31.140 Like marriage can be hard,

03:26:32.860 but it could also be the most glorious amazing thing and so setting these expectations for young

03:26:37.520 couples they're like it is hard and there's practical things you got to adjust to personality

03:26:41.820 things you got to adjust to sometimes it's cultural sometimes it's all sorts of things

03:26:45.380 ideologies but working towards that and just having healthy expectations that um you can work

03:26:50.740 through it and the scriptures the main things are the plain things and you work you can work

03:26:54.440 towards having a great marriage uh and it's but it's going to be hard i think that i think we

03:26:59.480 need to tell people that like yo marriage is not always going to be easy it's not always to make

03:27:02.380 you happy. It's to make you holy. It's a sanctifying process. Yeah, duty. Duty is something

03:27:06.700 that needs to be emphasized. We're going to hit this last question from the McGlone Code from

03:27:10.260 Rumble. We love our Rumble super chatters. So we'll hit this last one here. Do you agree that

03:27:14.480 all else being equal, it is a concerning sign when someone cannot find a godly spouse among

03:27:19.100 their own people? That doesn't sound ideal to me. I agree. That is concerning. Yep. Yep. All right.

03:27:24.320 Thank you guys for tuning in. We really appreciate it. Again, I just want here at the end to plug

03:27:28.620 our Patreon. So we did a two hour conversation, just me, Antonio and Wes going into the topic

03:27:34.500 of interracial marriage. And so if you'd like to see that, that's a Patreon exclusive. We want to

03:27:39.140 provide, you know, regular, frequent, tangible benefit value to our Patreon supporters who are

03:27:47.160 supporting us on a monthly basis financially. We really appreciate you guys. So check out

03:27:51.500 patreon.com forward slash NXR studios, patreon.com forward slash NXR studios. Make sure to subscribe

03:27:57.360 to our YouTube channel and follow us

03:27:59.540 on X. My handle is

03:28:01.040 at Joel Webin, at Joel Webin.

03:28:03.540 And subscribe on YouTube and rumble.

03:28:05.240 Click the bell and follow us. And real quick,

03:28:07.400 we'll let Ruslan and also

03:28:09.200 Avery plug. Where can people follow

03:28:11.440 you guys? 0.90

03:28:13.260 Yeah, Ruslan KD on all

03:28:15.140 platforms. Ruslan KD on YouTube. And then

03:28:17.440 again, March 5th, 6th

03:28:19.700 and 7th, Bless God Summit.

03:28:22.060 God Logic is going to be debating

03:28:23.520 Jacob Hansen, LDS

03:28:25.260 Apologist on the Trinity. We also got Wes Huff, Michael Knowles. We have a phenomenal lineup,

03:28:30.120 Indie Tribe. It's going to be awesome. So if you're anywhere near Southern California,

03:28:34.040 come hang out with us and you get more information at blessgodsummit.com.

03:28:37.840 Yep. And you can find me on GodLogicApologetics on YouTube, GodLogicGL on Instagram and on X,

03:28:47.480 and it's GodLogic underscore two on TikTok. I go live all the time. If you have a TikTok,

03:28:53.540 you'll have a good time

03:28:55.080 getting entertained

03:28:56.380 throughout the week

03:28:57.000 so those are the handles

03:28:58.240 you can

03:28:58.480 what about SoundCloud

03:28:58.840 I'm not on SoundCloud

03:29:00.700 just kidding

03:29:01.280 he's a rapper 0.99

03:29:01.960 because he's black 1.00

03:29:02.700 you know that's a good idea 0.99

03:29:04.900 I thought about it

03:29:05.700 I was like

03:29:05.980 maybe I shouldn't do it

03:29:07.120 I'm like no

03:29:07.860 I can do it

03:29:08.720 I'm the rapper bro

03:29:09.380 alright what's your SoundCloud

03:29:10.400 I can hit you with some bars

03:29:11.960 man so 0.75

03:29:12.620 but yeah that's where

03:29:13.300 you can find me

03:29:13.820 so thank you so much

03:29:14.640 thank you for the opportunity

03:29:15.400 this was a dope conversation

03:29:16.960 man I enjoyed myself

03:29:17.980 for real

03:29:18.320 good praise God

03:29:19.180 alright thank you guys

03:29:20.040 for tuning in

03:29:20.500 we appreciate you

03:29:21.220 we'll see you on Friday

03:29:22.860 Lord willing

03:29:23.540 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - January 16, 2026

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The NXR Podcast - January 16, 2026

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬ ​

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

NXR Livestream - Is Interracial Marriage Against God’s Normative Design？ LIVE ‪@RuslanKD‬ ‪@GodLogicApologetics‬