Jared Taylor and I compare and contrast our views on White Nationalism and Christian nationalism, and see where the two may overlap, and which is more viable. This is arguably one of the most important episodes we have produced as of late, and we hope that you are blessed and strengthened by it.
00:07:05.580but that's something of a different of a different angle looking at it yeah that's well said i i
00:07:10.880agree with you um and it's helpful you know to not have to attribute to other people's malice
00:07:18.700if uh if we're not certain of that because that's quite a charge um it has to substantiate yes it is
00:07:24.600and and it really does like i i do have sympathy in the sense that okay the whole world wants to
00:07:30.900live in my country. And if I was living in anywhere else, I would very likely feel the same
00:07:37.440way that it's, it's the, the moral obligation is not on the rest of the world to suppress their
00:07:43.820own desires and the betterment for their children out of, you know, some kind of disposition and
00:07:49.100favor towards whites. The moral obligation is on white people to actually have a fidelity,0.79
00:07:57.340you know in christian terms it's the auto amoris right the order of loves and it doesn't require0.59
00:08:03.860that you hate anyone it simply requires that if you are to truly love anyone at all those loves
00:08:10.260have to be prioritized it's it's easy and you know for the liberal to uh to claim to love everyone
00:08:17.060and to love everyone equally because what that essentially accomplishes is that by loving
00:08:22.240everyone equally, they're not really required to love anyone specifically. No one in practical
00:08:29.220terms. Go ahead. I agree 100%. And I think that's well said. The moral obligation is not
00:08:34.480on third worlders to say, well, you know, these white people are happy where they are. We should
00:08:39.840not try to join them. No, it's perfectly understandable that they should want to live
00:08:44.440with us. And in fact, I would imagine that when a Guatemalan staggers across the border and1.00
00:08:50.040discovers that he can be the beneficiary of affirmative action, racial preferences. As soon0.94
00:08:55.340as he sets foot in the United States, he's going to think, wow, boy, did I make the right decision?
00:09:00.620Maybe tomorrow it's going to rain beer. I live in a miraculous country now. So no, it is our fault
00:09:07.340to have let this happen. So in that respect, again, although you could describe the eventual
00:09:13.720fate of whites as that which we could expect from genocide, I prefer not to call it genocide
00:09:20.640because that imputes a motivation. Yeah, I think that's fair. So then I feel like the next question0.98
00:09:26.280that it raises is, why are white peoples so uniquely susceptible and vulnerable towards,
00:09:35.360if not engineering, that might be too strong of a term, certainly for the masses, that might
00:09:40.780describe a few yes but for the masses maybe not engineering but at least agreeing subconsciously
00:09:47.440agreeing to our own societal suicide what is it about white people because i don't i look at the
00:09:53.600rest of the world and that's that's just not the the the conception that i have like you already
00:09:58.740said like japan is not like that the chinese are not like that i don't even feel like certain
00:10:03.960country i don't feel like uganda is like that or ghanians are like that it's it seems to be
00:10:09.360unique to europeans americans uh what so what is it about white people that makes us so uniquely
00:10:16.120vulnerable to this suicidal toxic empathy mindset i've thought about that for a long time and i
00:10:24.660have a lot of theories about it not even together are they satisfactory because whatever theories i
00:10:33.600might lay out to you today. A hundred years ago, white people were not this way. We have been
00:10:40.720conscious of race for hundreds of years. We've been Christians, in some cases, for a thousand
00:10:47.940years. We have made war. We have made peace. All of the things that human beings do, we've been0.94
00:10:53.980doing for a very long time, but only in the last maybe century, maybe not even a century. We have
00:11:01.340somehow been so completely denatured that we have stopped exercising the completely normal
00:11:08.120instincts that we find operating in all human populations everywhere. Why? Why has that happened?
00:11:15.220I think that the two world wars were a devastating thing psychologically. They killed off a great
00:11:23.120many of the best of white men. And certainly the First World War left people thinking, my gosh,
00:11:30.240What kind of people are we to have stumbled into this unprecedented slaughter,
00:11:36.420this self-examination, a critical, scathing self-examination that took place after what
00:11:41.540they call the Great War? That was a very demoralizing time. And then what happens?
00:11:45.920What is it, 21 years later, we do it again? I think those two events were devastating
00:11:51.920psychologically to whites. Also, when you think about what are the hallmarks of Western civilization,0.74
00:12:01.260what makes us different from every other race, I think there's a kind of consideration of the
00:12:07.160interests of others. If you talk about one man, one vote, that means I may be much stronger,
00:12:14.360richer, smarter, better than you, but theoretically, I have no more political power than you.
00:12:21.920also the idea of freedom of speech i may be in a position to crush you but i'm not allowed to do
00:12:28.760that because what you have to say is potentially just as valuable as what i have to say
00:12:33.480these are alien concepts in any other society respect for women in most most non-white societies
00:12:42.640women are essentially sex servants beast of burden in i remember traditional japanese thinking the
00:12:49.920status of a woman was somewhere between that of a man and a bird, maybe. And so this, again,0.98
00:12:59.040is a respect for others. Women have rights. People who are weaker than we are have rights.1.00
00:13:06.900The whole idea of caring for the planet, other species, this is very much a Western European
00:13:12.620kind of concept. Not only do human beings have rights, other human beings that may be weaker,
00:13:18.160the opposite sex. They have rights, but unborn people have rights. We have to care about them.
00:13:23.060We have to care about the future of the planet. We have to care about other species. The Japanese,
00:13:28.120who I'm picking on today, they're happy to eat the whales. We want to save the whales.1.00
00:13:33.540And so this idea of caring about the rights of others, caring about the rights of the unborn,
00:13:40.880caring about the entire planet and other species, all of this is something that I believe is
00:13:46.260uniquely european and this idea of caring recognizing that the other species the other
00:13:52.800sex the other guy has a point of view this can be very easily perverted into thinking that
00:13:57.980all of the other races they too have a point of view and it makes it easier for us to see these
00:14:05.700people who were in war-torn syria and god well syria was a mess of a place and so angela merkel
00:14:12.580She says, OK, I'm going to let in a million and a half Syrians, these young Syrian men, because they're suffering and we are nice to people.
00:14:21.500They have a point of view. And at the same time, she was probably convinced that race is a social construct, that after, you know, a few years,
00:14:29.920they'll be wearing lederhosen and drinking beer and they'll be just like good Germans and they'll pay for their Social Security and their retirement.
00:14:36.660All of these things, I think, combine to make white people particularly vulnerable.0.73
00:14:43.580Warning, this product contains nicotine.
00:22:58.520And I think you can make a convincing argument that Jews have been particularly busy in trying to make the Holocaust a central element of the way we are supposed to view history.
00:23:11.520That doesn't mean that Gentiles had to go along with that.
00:23:18.120We could have shrugged that off. But even people who are not Jewish, people of goodwill,
00:23:27.080not necessarily influenced by that kind of thinking to a great degree, they looked at that
00:23:33.320colossal slaughter. And they said, well, how did this start? This started, this came from
00:23:39.420nationalism. This came from Germans or Frenchmen or Italians or British thinking that they had
00:23:46.480something so important that it was worth slaughtering as many people as possible to preserve0.79
00:23:50.980that or to expand that and this kind of nationalism this kind of sense of us versus them and in the0.99
00:23:57.520case of the germans of a kind of racial folkish purity this brought about this horrible slaughter0.90
00:24:04.540so we have to stop that any way we can and you can look at the origins of the european union0.99
00:24:11.380that was very much an attempt to try to tie Europe together specifically France
00:24:19.260and Germany started with the European coal and steel community trying to get
00:24:24.460the coal and steel industries to work together in a way that made the
00:24:28.360economies dependent on each other the idea being if our economies are
00:24:31.920dependent we won't make war then this became the European common market and
00:24:37.120now the European Union, and the idea that we're going to have one European government.
00:24:41.600So we just will never, ever again have one of these fratricidal wars.
00:24:45.680This is something that I think came from a sense of, my God, we made a terrible mistake.
00:28:53.460And it may require that my generation essentially die off before your generation and the ones following that can regain some kind of sensible control over their morality, over the kind of morality that's necessary for them to ensure their own survival.
00:29:11.660Yeah, it seems as though, one, getting over white guilt is what I hear you saying.0.61
00:29:15.860So in terms of solutions, one is to get over white guilt.
00:29:18.460And that's where I think that, you know, Christianity is paramount, because at the end of the day, Christianity actually does present a solution to the problem of guilt.0.61
00:29:32.100The solution is forgiveness and not just forgiving others, but being able to rest in the forgiveness that God has offered to you so that you don't just have to dot every I and cross every T.
00:29:44.060and you know everyone doesn't have to be a historian and be able to articulate why the
00:29:49.020crusades were justified or why this was justified or colonialism you know this that and the other
00:29:54.020but you can actually one history is vital so we do need people who are just simply more literate
00:29:59.660in in terms of white people's actual um actual origins and and history and these things but
00:30:05.940in addition to that to be able to say okay well even where white people have erred because white
00:30:11.240people are not perfect and nobody has to land on that conclusion, you can still be able to rest in
00:30:17.220the grace of God. Like I see the abandonment, like what you articulated, the abandonment
00:30:21.520and apostasy of white nations towards the Lord Jesus Christ coinciding. It's not as though
00:30:28.480the West is abandoning Christianity and becoming more racially conscious, right? That's not the
00:30:34.480correlation it's we're abandoning um the the the faith the christian faith which is um a religion
00:30:41.880of grace and and uh the absolvement of guilt and as we're abandoning um this religion of grace
00:30:50.020we're becoming increasingly not less so but more so a guilty people and and more easily exploited
00:30:57.320more easy. So I see Christianity as a significant potential solution, but it has to be0.99
00:31:04.800the historic faith. It has to be real Christianity and not a modern perversion.0.50
00:31:10.820Well, it's certainly true that in opposition to the people who say that Christianity is the
00:31:17.820problem of white people, that that has weakened us, made us susceptible to all kinds of manipulation
00:31:23.040exploitation the fact that as we become less christian we seem to become more manipulable
00:31:30.000more susceptible to this exploitation but i am curious you would call yourself a christian
00:31:35.280nationalist am i correct yes sir yes uh and if you don't mind i'd be curious to know what
00:31:41.040the implications of that are uh would i gather you would take the position that people should
00:31:47.680serve in elective office, or at least in offices of some kind of control or dominance, only if
00:31:53.200they are Christian in your ideal state. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Yeah, I'd have a few different0.97
00:31:58.560criteria for elected office, but also even for voting citizens. So I don't think it could just,
00:32:06.740you know, necessarily requires a black and white category of you're not a citizen at all,
00:32:10.660you have zero provisions, and or you're a citizen. So I would, I think there could be tiers. But in
00:32:15.900terms of like a full citizenship with voting rights, I would, um, I would not only want
00:32:21.540Christians, um, those who have made a profession of faith, uh, as a requirement for office,
00:32:27.060but even a requirement for voting. So I w I would see it as you would need to be, um, you would
00:32:32.220need to be third generation, have a stake in America's past and the nation's past. So third0.98
00:32:37.040generation on both sides of the family, um, in, uh, in order to vote or hold electoral office
00:32:44.740in addition to that uh you would have to be an adult male in addition to that you would also have
00:32:50.320a male no no women voting yes sir uh and we can and we'll come back to that um but uh in addition
00:32:56.180to that uh obviously an upstanding citizen without um a crime record criminal record uh in addition
00:33:02.080to that a net positive tax paying citizen uh not a drain financially on society there would be you
00:33:08.080know articulated some exceptions like a veteran for instance maybe getting more benefits but
00:33:12.520that that would be different but not certainly not someone who's simply um a part of the welfare
00:33:17.180class right then and then lastly that uh that christian piece and then i would want to hold
00:33:23.800even marriage and i would see marriage i wouldn't hold children um because you know that that can't
00:33:29.200always be helped um biologically there are you know there are exceptions where people can't
00:33:33.240conceive but i would i would root it in marriage third generation meaning you have a stake in the
00:33:38.640past and marriage knowing that marriage ordinarily leads towards procreation you have a stake in the
00:33:45.460future i want people who have a heritage in the past and a stake in the future and then also who
00:33:51.220are heads of household i view that one of my arguments for that would simply be representative
00:33:55.420government i think that a raw democracy number none of our founders had anything positive to say
00:34:00.880about that but i do believe in republics and i believe in representative government and i think
00:34:06.320that one of the problems um you know so you mentioned guilt and so i think the christian
00:34:10.820gospel is very um necessary in overcoming guilt but i think another problem is being atomistic
00:34:17.460um so so individualistic um that white people not only are they a guilty people not not necessarily
00:34:24.880objectively but in terms of their perception but in addition to be being viewing themselves
00:34:30.620as subjectively guilty. White people cannot, for whatever reason, cannot view themselves as a
00:34:38.180collective. They tend to not be able to think of themselves as a group. And I think that democracy0.91
00:34:44.520is part of that problem. Our sacred democracy is the full separation. It boils down to the
00:34:51.680individual. And I would say the basic building block of a nation, of a society, is not the
00:34:55.800individual but the family and so just as i have you know representatives in local government in
00:35:01.820my county and in my state and then at the federal level um i i don't just i don't get to go and sit
00:35:07.440in the halls of congress and make decisions for myself somebody is elected and makes those
00:35:12.020decisions for me and so by by requiring the male piece that he's he's married he's third generation
00:35:18.880uh he's an upstanding citizen without a criminal record he's a net positive taxpayer what i'm
00:35:24.320thinking in the sense of repealing the 19th amendment and holding the vote certainly office
00:35:29.760but also a vote to male citizens is I'm viewing that in in the banner of representative government0.72
00:35:36.380it's not that the woman doesn't have a voice there's you know there's a view a voice she
00:35:41.940speaks to her husband correct daughters are represented by fathers a widow even is represented
00:35:48.160by her brother or by her uncle or by her father and and there would be some exceptions as we've
00:35:53.960had in America's past where a widow could perhaps, uh, have control over an estate because she was
00:36:00.680of great means. Her husband was an elite man and died an untimely death. And that's not going to
00:36:06.140be stripped from her. So there were, there were always exceptions. Uh, even when, before we had
00:36:10.780the 19th amendment, um, you know, the average woman, you know, uh, had less influence and less0.99
00:36:17.160power, but there was still, uh, whether formal or informal, there was still always an aristocracy0.99
00:36:23.080and the women of that class were very powerful, informally so.0.60
00:36:29.420Well, so largely you're going back to the Constitution as originally written.0.58
00:36:33.760You had to be a free white person, and you had to be a property owner, and you had to be a man.0.51
00:36:40.840What you're describing adds a few more details to that.
00:43:18.140And to me, I think Thomas is an admirable person, but he is not part of my family, my larger extended family.0.88
00:43:30.360We are biologically closer to all white people in the world than we are to any other non-white person.0.85
00:43:37.320And when you were talking about the biblical affirmation of a number of things, and you said mentality or kinship, something that suggested kinship to me.0.78
01:00:20.480you know like i experience extreme pushback and opposition and be called a racist and be called
01:00:27.700this um and and because this issue is so near and dear to your heart you're saying okay i it's one
01:00:34.620thing to to have a barrage of of oppositional fire on this issue if if i if i expand and say and i'm
01:00:42.940also going to fight for male only vote and then i'm also going to fight for you know this that
01:00:48.060And I say I know this by, you know, somewhat, by experience, because I've kind of, you know, gotten into the trenches on biblical patriarchy.
01:00:57.500I've gotten into the trenches on not a race essentialism, but like a race realism is probably the way that I would describe it.0.83
01:01:05.580And I've gotten into the trenches with an anti-Zionism kind of position.0.76
01:01:10.920And picking three hills, man, I get shot a lot.0.87
01:01:16.460The way I put it is, you can't afford to be a crank on more than one question.
01:01:24.920And if someone is looking for reasons to disagree with me, and then he finds, oh, and this guy thinks this about women, or he thinks this about Jews, or he thinks this about abortion or euthanasia, or whatever some divisive question is, he thinks this about Christianity.
01:02:11.440can't swap out white people and swap in Asians or Somalis, Africans, and get the same country.0.77
01:02:19.140Not at all. And that, as I like to put it, we as white people have the right to be us,
01:02:25.520and only we can be us. It's a pretty simple way of putting it. And so long as I stick to that
01:02:31.540basic message, I am unlikely to cause the kind of disagreement that diminishes our numbers
01:02:38.480in what is, to me, the most crucial and important battleground in the last, who knows, 5,000 years.
01:02:47.100And that's why, to me, it is a pity when people draw lines and say,0.66
01:02:51.720well, okay, if they're not Christians, white men, they're just not going to be part of the show.
01:02:57.820They can't vote. They can't run for office.0.79
01:03:00.260Well, this brings me to a different question, though.
01:03:04.720I mean, you certainly know the Bible far better than I,
01:03:07.640And you're going to slap this idea down with no difficulty whatsoever.
01:03:11.880But didn't Jesus himself say, my kingdom is not of this world, and all this render under Caesar, etc., etc.?
01:03:20.340Could you not, based on the New Testament at any rate, say that Christianity is essentially a private decision,
01:03:29.000that it is not necessarily a basis for legislation, except perhaps for the Ten Commandments?
01:03:35.180So you certainly could say that. And Lord knows that many, many have, especially as of late,
01:03:41.520recently. What I would say, just to answer the question, is I would say that Christianity is
01:03:45.940deeply personal. But I would bifurcate the distinction between a personal faith that must
01:03:53.400be personal versus a private faith. So I would say that Christianity must be personal, but also
01:03:58.700must be public. I would say that Jesus is Lord of the public square. So the final thing that Jesus
01:04:04.600says when he's about to ascend to heaven after the resurrection and be taken up into heaven
01:04:09.900disappear before the clouds he gives the great commission to go in and baptize the nations
01:04:14.980but he prefaces it by saying that all authority has been given to him not only in the 17th
01:04:19.840dimension in some ethereal spiritual terms exclusively but all authority has been given
01:04:24.500to me on earth and in heaven and when jesus says that my kingdom is not of this world what i would
01:04:30.020say is I would just distinguish that in saying that it is true that the kingdom of God is not
01:04:35.500of the world in the sense that it does not derive the source of its power and authority by worldly
01:04:41.740means. But to say that Christ's kingdom is not of the world is not the same as to say that his
01:04:46.960kingdom is not in this world. And I would say that the little bit of leaven, thinking of some of his
01:04:52.500parables, that eventually over time gradually and progressively works through the whole batch of
01:04:57.060or the mustard seed that eventually grows into a great global encompassing tree that um that
01:05:03.300that that that jesus like the seed that if it is to grow first must die and be planted and buried
01:05:10.300and die that jesus he was buried and he did die and and that his church the body of christ here
01:05:15.940here on earth is growing into this great tree and uh and that that is precisely his purpose not just
01:05:22.940souls in heaven but but christians on earth a christian kingdom here is that any different from
01:05:30.620quranic sharia law in other words uh uh according to the sharia civil law should be based on the
01:05:38.940quran would you go so far to say that all civil law or criminal law in a christian nation would
01:05:46.200be based on the Bible. I would say that it's a vast distinction between, you know, Sharia law,
01:05:52.420certainly. In part, one of the biggest distinctions is just the distinction between the
01:05:56.520Quran and the Bible. The Quran is far more severe. Aside from the content, yes, aside from the0.93
01:06:01.380content, but the idea is that all laws in a Christian society should be founded on the Bible.
01:06:07.740Would that be your position? Yes, but I would specify how. So I would say that in the Old
01:06:15.220Testament. You have three primary divisions of the law. You have civil codes, you have ceremonial
01:06:20.160laws that are done away with. They've been fulfilled by Christ. We no longer make animal
01:06:24.260sacrifices, certain hand-washing rituals, certain temple practices. So the ceremonial laws are done
01:06:30.480away with. The civil codes, I believe, were belonging to that particular administration
01:06:35.620of Old Covenant Israel. So for instance, having a parapet around the border of your roof.
01:06:41.620If somebody did not have a border around the roof, then they would be liable to certain penalties if someone was injured and rolled off the roof.
01:06:48.760But it's contextual because they didn't have HVAC, they didn't have air conditioning.
01:06:53.580People slept on the roof during the warmer summer months, and so there was a need for that.
01:06:58.580So what I would say is that you have the three main divisions of the Old Testament law.
01:07:59.960that ultimately had its general equity.
01:08:02.440the moral foundational impetus for that particular civil code could be tracked back to one of the
01:08:10.120moral laws, the 10 commandments. So I would say that not the civil, certainly not the ceremonial
01:08:15.220laws, Jesus is enough, not a one-to-one ratio, a wholesale drop of the civil codes, you know,
01:08:21.360hundreds of civil codes, but the 10 commandments, I would want to say, yes, these 10 commandments
01:08:26.740are for all nations and all peoples, and then it takes prudence and wisdom to look at the
01:08:33.120Decalogue, the Ten Commandments, moral commands from God, and appropriately apply them in our
01:08:37.740place and time today. That's what I'm saying. Okay, so the Old Testament, that in effect,
01:08:44.580you can pick and choose parts of the Old Testament that would apply today. I mean,
01:08:48.720that's putting it in somewhat derogatory terms. But for example, yes, stoning women caught in
01:08:55.520adultery, for example. The other thing that strikes me is that there's so many questions
01:09:02.140that we have to face today for which it seems to me it might be difficult to come up with a
01:09:08.260Christian policy. That's true. That's very true. Taxation, the size of government.1.00
01:09:16.480What is the purpose of prisons? Are prisons to punish or prisons penitentiaries in which
01:09:22.920people to make penitence and come out forgiven? Right, rehabilitate or punitive? That's a great
01:09:29.780question. Also, oh, even, I don't know, I know that the Quakers believe that a Christian nation
01:09:38.580shouldn't even have an army, that we love our neighbors as ourselves, turn the other cheek.0.96
01:09:43.500Do not like the Quakers, not a fan of the Quakers. I'm not.1.00
01:09:47.360Were they not Christians? Would Quakers be deprived of the vote in your polity?
01:09:53.780So what I would do is, these are great questions, and I'm going to answer.0.63
01:09:57.620And I know you're asking somewhat facetiously, but I'm going to give you an honest answer.
01:10:02.120Only half facetiously, because the Bible is so full of different things that can and have been interpreted in so many different ways.
01:10:11.140It just seems it's a difficult, I mean, people will say, this is the only guide we need.
01:10:17.360right and i understand that conviction that's based on faith but there's so many difficult
01:10:22.640things in that guidebook to interpret to apply to the world we live in today 100 so i would say that
01:10:30.160i'm a bible guy i love the bible biblicism however continues to prove to be extraordinarily
01:10:36.880problematic and what i mean by biblicism is the um the insistence of chapter and verse chapter
01:10:42.640and verse right so i just recently you know and i got a lot of flack from this um i just recently
01:10:48.580had a debate with um two individuals who both have a lot of followers in the christian kind
01:10:56.300of sphere online uh both of them are youtubers one of them was a young black man named avery
01:11:01.660one of them uh is a white man named ruslan who is in an interracial marriage his wife is black
01:11:06.620and I've met her. She's a sweet lady. But they were arguing for interracial marriage and I was
01:11:14.020arguing against. And I wasn't arguing against in the sense that I don't believe that it should be1.00
01:11:19.500legislated. I don't believe that there should be laws against it. But I was, the thesis, I came up
01:11:24.280with a thesis and they agreed. So we both agreed on the prompt for the debate. I was the affirmative.
01:11:29.400And the thesis that I wrote was interracial marriage while being biblically permissive
01:11:35.040um or permissible interracial marriage while biblically permissible uh generally goes against
01:11:42.040god's ordinary slash normative plan for people's cultures and nations so that was the prompt i was
01:11:48.220affirming that and they were denying and um i got a lot of backlash you know probably in you know in
01:11:54.540the comments and people watching the debate probably nine nine out of ten were saying i
01:11:59.140can't believe joel said that but my point is is that so is that so nine out of ten of your
01:12:04.580viewers and listeners thought that not so much my viewers and listeners it's because these two
01:12:10.080individuals who i love i i think they're christians i i disagree with them on this issue but
01:12:15.220but they're nice enough men they they're uh their following is uh combined collectively the two of
01:12:22.020them is probably 10 times the size of my fault so so it wasn't just my listeners it was a lot of
01:12:27.100their listeners coming to play um and you know and so so but my point is uh what the crux of
01:12:32.980the debate kept coming down to was biblicism not bible i like bible i'm a christian but
01:12:38.840biblicism in other words what they kept saying was well joel you're you're effectively losing
01:12:44.200the debate losing the argument because you have yet to prove from chapter and verse explicitly
01:12:50.300from the bible that this isn't god's normative plan and and you know my point i even said at
01:12:56.620one point in the debate i said there's not a chapter and verse in the bible that says thou
01:13:00.120shalt not drink water out of the toilet but we don't do it we don't we don't need that like god
01:13:06.320made us as rational beings there's natural law there's all these different things and so all
01:13:11.420this back to your questions um i would say that um what a lot of christians it's it actually
01:13:16.760it betrays um i i think a uh a distasteful motivation a lot of christians perhaps
01:13:23.760subconsciously they don't even realize it but there's a there's a an apathy and laziness that
01:13:28.920Part of the reason why they just, you know, what I would call low IQ Christian nationalism is they want the Bible to be the handbook because they don't want to do the hard work of prudence and wisdom and thinking about how things work.
01:13:45.860So I want the Bible to be the foundation, but I don't believe that the Bible somehow removes the necessity for prudence and wisdom and application of the scripture.0.89
01:13:57.740So all that being said, back to the Christian thing, Quakers, would they be a part of this deal0.64
01:14:01.420or this and that and the other? What I would say in simple terms is the Christian nationalism that
01:14:05.420I want to see take place would be creedal, not confessional. Credal meaning I would want to see
01:14:12.660the constitution as is. I would like to revisit some of the latter amendments after the first 10.
01:14:19.020But other than that, the first 10 amendments, I like. The latter amendments, I would want to
01:14:24.000revisit. The rest of the Constitution is beautiful. And then I would want to adopt a preamble to the
01:14:30.020Constitution, not a confession, Westminster Confession, that's 90 pages and very specific
01:14:34.620and would say, well, this Christian's in and this Christian's out, but something creedal that would
01:14:38.600include Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant, like the Apostles' Creed, that does what I see as
01:14:44.380a failure of the founders. Because you're right, Jared, they did not explicitly name the Lord Jesus
01:14:49.620Christ. And I, and I think they should have that's, I could be wrong about that, but that's my
01:14:53.600perception. Um, and then when it comes to, you know, laws and these things, like you said,
01:14:58.580a woman being stoned, just to answer that question for the listener, I would look at all these, um,
01:15:03.540these moral specific moral laws in the old Testament, and some of them being civic laws,
01:15:08.680civil code codes. And I would say that the ones that, um, that specify the death penalty,
01:15:14.040that according to the Noahic covenant in Genesis chapter nine, there's actually only one crime
01:15:19.200not only a sin but it's also a crime that um that merits or mandates even capital punishment and
01:15:26.040that is the taking of someone's life in the case of adultery or the case of breaking blue laws which
01:15:32.480we had on the books here in america for quite a long time sabbath laws or blasphemy laws or these
01:15:37.720kinds of things wherever uh the death penalty is mentioned i would see that as um that would be a
01:15:45.000maximum penalty so in the state of texas you know you see signs don't mess mess with texas littering
01:15:50.600you know two thousand dollar fine or five years in jail and i don't know about you but i don't
01:15:54.740have any i don't know anyone who's doing hard time in prison right now it's like man i've been here
01:15:59.860three and a half years 18 more months to go i threw a coke bottle out the window and and so
01:16:04.460what i would say is for repeat incessant offenders homosexuality for instance not police going into
01:16:10.380private homes, but if someone is trying to indoctrinate children, they're writing paraphernalia,
01:16:16.020they're leading parades that are grotesque, egregious, where people are nude, they've done
01:16:22.100it again and again and again and again, they've received certain fines, certain penalties, they've
01:16:26.880been told to cease and desist, it's been years, they continue, then yes, it could raise all the
01:16:32.360way up as a maximum penalty to that point. So that's how I look at the Old Testament. I know
01:16:38.180I don't think you would disagree, but just to answer the question.
01:16:40.480Well, so for the same, the same would be for blasphemy and adultery, for example.
01:16:45.140Repeat offenders could theoretically face the death penalty.
01:16:48.580Theoretically, a repeat offender could.
01:16:50.960Well, the fact of the matter is, I am a great fan of the death penalty.
01:16:55.840And there was a time when a number of states passed three strikes and you're out laws.
01:17:01.000And the idea was, after three penalties, your third felony conviction, you were going to have life in jail.
01:17:09.160Well, that certainly cut down the crime rate, but it also made the jails overcrowded.
01:17:14.580So they released, they stopped doing that.
01:17:18.180And now you hear about these people who have committed murder or some other heinous crime.
01:17:30.500I would bring back three strikes and you're out, but I would say give them the death penalty.0.91
01:17:36.700I am not stingy with the death penalty.
01:17:40.120I think the idea we've got to feed and house and medicate and clothe these people until they're 80, 90 years old,
01:17:46.760put them on dialysis when they're sick, this is nuts.
01:17:50.900I want them not just out of society, I just want them off the planet.0.99
01:17:54.740Now, that may sound harsh, that may sound brutal, but I'm not opposed to the death penalty.
01:17:59.100but I don't base it on biblical grounds. I base it on practical grounds. Why want these people
01:18:04.980out of the society, out of the gene pool, never to be heard of again? And for me, I would base it
01:18:09.280on both because I agree. It's painfully practical, very much based in reason. There was a guy,
01:18:16.340R.J. Rush student. Oh, yes. I've heard of him, yes. Yeah, he was a theonomist and I would be
01:18:22.740in that camp with some distinctions, but I would describe myself as a general equity theonomist.
01:18:28.160So again, not a wholesale one-to-one ratio of civil codes, you know, in 2026 America, all the distinctions that I've already laid out, but I appreciate him very much. I think he was courageous and he did a lot of good things. And, um, and, and he was, he was, as the kids say, he was based, um, you know, he was, uh, he understood, he spoke about interracial marriage. He, um, you know, he got the charge of being a kennist and those kinds of things.
01:18:52.500He also, um, got the charge of being a Holocaust denier, you know, and he, he was just, he
01:18:57.780was an, of an older mindset, um, and not so indoctrinated by the, the modern post-war
01:19:49.060But, well, I suppose our real fundamentalist agreement, yours and mine, is the idea that in this otherwise quite healthy society in which you would have only a very small number of non-whites, that a white person who does not profess the Christian faith would not be a full citizen.
01:20:10.540Again, I think that's unnecessarily divisive.
01:20:14.220Now, I find it interesting that, in your view, Catholics are okay.
01:33:43.960I was talking to him about his conception
01:33:46.120of white nationhood, white peoplehood, viewing ourselves as a collective. And he, in preparing
01:33:55.100for that interview, he was probably equally fascinated and interested in my views. He wanted
01:34:00.980to understand a little bit more me being racially conscious, but putting the primary emphasis in
01:34:08.160Christian nationalism rather than merely white nationalism. He wanted to see how that would work
01:34:13.400and where we might overlap, and what the similarities might be, and what the distinctions
01:34:18.740might be. And I've said several times, I'll say again, in that regard, I would not be comfortable
01:34:26.040describing myself as a race essentialist. I believe what's essential, and what I'm using,
01:34:32.620the way I'm using the phrase there, is because I believe that religion is more important than race.
01:34:37.840So I see Christian first, Christ first, but I would feel comfortable, you know, even though a lot of people will slander and twist and pervert what I'm about to say and make it, you know, some kind of form of hatred and say that I'm a racist.
01:34:57.980I would reject race essentialism, but I would accept race realism, an acknowledgement that race is a real category, that race is a biblical category, that it can be squared with Scripture, that there are distinctions among the races, and distinctions necessarily create disparities.
01:35:19.140nobody has to be happy about that but that that is uh inevitable and true and uh and that there
01:35:27.640is a sense in which god's ordinary normative plan for peoples cultures and nations uh includes
01:35:34.820races not just creeds not just propositions not just ideologies but uh race as an extension of
01:35:43.340the family and that races ordinarily, according to God's normative plan, would live together.
01:35:50.220And so I believe that the diversity we all as Christians should long for in the eternal state
01:35:58.060of heaven, every tribe, tongue, and nation does not actually occur without some kind of
01:36:04.760racial preservation in the temporal realm here on earth. If we blend all the races and all peoples
01:36:13.140here on earth, if diversity stops here, then diversity does not actually occur in heaven.
01:36:21.080So I think that this is a perfectly permissible view, that it's not an immoral view or a view
01:36:28.080that includes some kind of sinful, unjustifiable hatred for whole swaths of other people. I think
01:36:36.840it's undeniable. It is, I admit, currently still outside of the Overton window, and so
01:36:42.360most people who are npcs and simply have the chip in the back of their head are programmed in a
01:36:49.000certain way they can't help but hear these kinds of things and uh and immediately indict the person
01:36:55.520who's espousing them as being sinful as being um as being hateful but that's simply not true so
01:37:04.720that's the main difference i think between jared and i is that i i simply am going to put um a lot
01:37:11.020more emphasis on the Christian peace, because at the end of the day, I am a Christian, after all,
01:37:16.680and a Christian minister. But I think that one of the great problems and dangers is that right now,
01:37:26.540this isn't the way that Christians have always thought, but currently many Christians who share
01:37:32.400my emphasis of Christ first, they have been hoodwinked into thinking that in order to be
01:37:40.520truly pure in the Christian side of the equation, that they must disclude any racial component at
01:37:48.120all, that they have to believe that race doesn't even exist. You know, we're one race, the human
01:37:54.160race. We've all descended from Adam and Eve, and that is true. We are all descendants of Adam and
01:37:59.260Eve, and then the second time with the flood, all descendants of Noah. But we know that although
01:38:05.100we all share the same ancestral head with Adam and Eve and then Noah and his wife, I
01:38:13.580still, at the end of the day, when writing my personal will, when it comes to inheritance
01:38:19.860that will be given, I'm not writing every child in the world, excuse me, into my will.
01:38:29.360And so we still understand that although we share a common ancestry with Adam and Eve,
01:38:34.460there are still distinctions. We think that when it comes to our inheritance that we give,
01:38:39.960we're not going to give them to everyone's children, we're going to give them to our
01:38:43.460children. And so when we think of a nation, I think there's a component of a nation being
01:38:48.980the extended family, and that is more than simply blood and soil, or people and place,
01:38:57.780lineage and land, but it's not less. It includes liturgy, religion, laws, loves, traditions,
01:39:06.840language. These things are included when we think of nationhood. But if we only include those things
01:39:14.820as a substitute and don't include at all lineage and land, people and place, then we're thinking
01:39:21.280about nations and peoples in a way that no one has ever thought about it before, including
01:39:27.280our Christian ancestors, and we're thinking about nationhood in a way that the Bible doesn't
01:39:34.240describe nationhood. And so in that regard, there was plenty of overlap between myself and Jared,
01:39:41.660and the main distinction was simply emphasis. We both agree in a racial realism, and we both agree
01:39:49.140that Christianity is a positive influence in the world and that it matters. The main distinction
01:39:54.420between our two views is simply what gets the greater emphasis. For him, it would be white
01:40:00.220first, Christian second. For me, it would be Christian first, and that's the main difference.0.95
01:40:06.100Wes and Antonio, what do you think about the discussion? I think it was a great interview.
01:40:11.940Jared's obviously been doing decades worth of research, and to commend him looking at crime
01:40:16.700statistics, this is something he's written extensively about, knowing everything he knows,
01:40:20.840and in many ways feeling as though he was shouting into the void. He used those very words
01:40:24.980himself to describe it. He hasn't become bitter or jaded or angry or hateful. He's really a
01:40:31.400cheerful old man. And he said multiple times, this isn't about hate. This isn't about just
01:40:36.320indiscriminate, kicking people out or anything like that. He's saying, I just, I love my people.
01:40:42.420It's overflowed into, I want to care for these people that are quickly becoming a global minority.
01:40:47.220And I think everyone should aspire to that, that as much as you know about the things that are wrong in the world, also aspire to be a jolly warrior.
01:40:55.420And there's some senses in which Jared Taylor, long in the fight, decades in the fight, that he embodies that.
01:41:00.460A cheerful warrior who's trudged on and said, this is the one thing that I've made my mission.0.94
01:41:05.920And to your point, Joel, the emphasis, the race versus the Christian, what I want people to come away with this,
01:41:11.100because there's lots of people that tuned in for Jared, and they've really never heard the Christian side of things,
01:41:15.740or they've never heard a Christian come out and defend the existence of nations,
01:41:19.980the reality of borders, the necessity of caring for your own race.
01:41:24.220The beautiful thing, and you saw it as you guys agreed, probably about 80% agreement,
01:41:28.540is that Christianity is never opposed to natural duties.
01:41:32.140The gospel never comes in conflict with your duty to your family.
01:41:35.840There is no Christian ever that has said,
01:41:38.600well, I can obey God and my family starves, or I can feed my family and disobey God.
01:41:44.040The duties laid out for us in the Christian religion are never to the detriment and the
01:41:49.440destruction of our natural affections. They're never to the destruction of our family. And so
01:41:54.800very often you'll see there's not a dichotomy. Well, I could care for religion, but I have to0.70
01:42:00.440see my people destroyed. Or I could care for my people, but religion wouldn't matter. The two,1.00
01:42:05.380grace and nature, come together and they elevate each other. We have all these examples. I think
01:42:10.080of Moses, Pharaoh, let my people go. My people, the people descended from Abraham that have been
01:42:17.260given promises. Paul in Romans, he says, I would be happy to go to hell for the sake of my kinsmen,
01:42:23.140that they would know Christ. And he literally says, the sake of my kinsmen, according to the
01:42:27.800flesh. So Paul, I mean, think about that. If you over-spiritualize that, it doesn't even make
01:42:32.700logical sense. If the apostle Paul was speaking in a spiritual category, my people, according to
01:42:38.620Christ according to faith. I'd be willing to go to hell for people who already are saved from hell.
01:42:45.120That doesn't make any sense. He's saying, I would be willing to go to hell if there was an allowance
01:42:51.120that I could take the place of my kinsmen according to the flesh who currently are going to hell
01:42:56.600because of their unbelief and rejection of Christ. Paul doesn't say that about Indians. He doesn't
01:43:02.180say that about Ugandans. He doesn't say that about Americans for that matter. He's saying that
01:43:06.900about his people according to the flesh naturally speaking let my people go like moses i'm sure at
01:43:14.500that point that there were probably it would have been the minority but there were probably some
01:43:18.460egyptians that had put faith after 10 plagues in egypt and seeing the the power manifest of yahweh
01:43:25.760that he was the true god there were probably some that had actually in a spiritual capacity put faith
01:43:32.000in the God of Israel and made that spiritual conversion. But Moses is not talking about
01:43:38.760letting them go because they're not in bondage. He's talking about his people according to the
01:43:43.640flesh. Let my people go. Not spiritual Israelites, but natural Israelites. And that was a good1.00
01:43:50.340instinct guided by the Lord, nothing to apologize for. And in fact, if it was missing, right? When
01:43:57.360does Moses begin to care in the first place? He begins to care when he realizes his ancestry.
01:44:04.160It's when Moses realizes that he himself is a Hebrew, right? That he actually is not an Egyptian,
01:44:11.020but rather a Hebrew. And he realizes that he comes from Hebrew parents, that that's the point where
01:44:16.660everything begins to change. Moses was walking around watching Egyptians whip and beat their
01:44:22.320Hebrew slaves for years, for decades. And he was watching it with ultimately a calloused heart,
01:44:30.040didn't really care one way or the other. Then all of a sudden he finds out that he himself
01:44:34.220is a Hebrew. Then he sees an Egyptian beating a slave and he kills him. He kills the Egyptian0.99
01:44:43.200and then has to run away out of fear for his life. Well, what was the change? This is before0.65
01:44:48.660the burning bush. This is before he heard the audible voice of God. This is before any of
01:44:52.680those things occurred, before any miracles had taken place, any manifest signs of the power of
01:44:57.980God. This is simply Moses coming into just the knowledge of who his people were. And all of a
01:45:06.820sudden, his affections change. And that's a very natural, good, right, and ordered change of
01:45:13.460affection. And he's commended in Hebrews for letting the prince, being a prince, go. He lays
01:45:19.160aside all the riches of Egypt that could have been his. He could have worshipped the true God
01:45:23.460as prince and lived a pretty luxurious life, but he's commended as a father, as one who had faith
01:45:29.940for letting that go and being bound to his natural people. And so the two are never at conflict. Well,
01:45:36.120I could care about my people, I could care about my nation, I could care about my fathers,
01:45:39.640or could care about the spiritual no the two of them come together grace and nature and we we
01:45:45.480recognize this so recently i think of tolkien and the lord of the rings and the final scene in the
01:45:50.580fellowship where aragorn is comforting boromir and he says i do not know what strength is within
01:45:55.240my blood already scary right there he says but i will not let the white city fall or my people
01:46:00.800fail and at the very end what makes him such an incredible king is that he actually brings together
01:46:05.200these two groups of people that don't really like each other and you could liken the race of men
01:46:09.100the race of dwarves, the race of elves, not to be a little bit too nerdy, two different people
01:46:13.220sharing a common lineage that have their own sets of interests. And what Aragorn does at the final
01:46:17.680end is they make their stand, as he says, band together, not just Gondor, not just Rohan,
01:46:23.060but men of the West. You people that I'm related to, that we share this common fate, let's come
01:46:29.220together and make our stand. Everybody knew this. I mean, that movie was filmed 26 years ago,
01:46:34.360the return of the king came out 2001 just 25 years ago everyone understood yeah you can talk
01:46:39.940about the blood that runs through the line of kings you can talk about caring for your people0.97
01:46:44.720now nowhere in there was aragorn like i will not let our people fail but the dwarves can suck it
01:46:49.960no but i'm king of my people and i'm going to bring us together and that's what makes him such
01:46:54.640a good king and so i really liked what jared had to say great discussion joel as well the pushback
01:47:00.040Thank you. And, you know, 1 Corinthians 15, it does say the natural comes first and then the
01:47:05.000spiritual. The spiritual is the highest and it is the ultimate and it is ultimately our final
01:47:11.540eternal state. It is what we aim for being resurrected, not just with a new physical body,
01:47:16.080but a spiritual body like unto the Lord. So the natural does matter, but the spiritual is ultimate.
01:47:21.580The spiritual is of infinite value and it's what we will enjoy for eternity. Right. It's interesting
01:47:26.860as you were talking about Moses being willing to give up, you know, his inheritance as a prince
01:47:32.680of Egypt in order to unite himself and identify with his people as a collective and say, these
01:47:38.260are my people and I speak for them. You know, Hebrews is using that as indicative even of Christ.
01:47:46.200Christ is the better Moses. And it's, you know, it's almost feels scandalous to say, so I need0.80
01:47:52.640to say it carefully so that I don't cross over any theological boundaries here. But God, the God
01:47:58.260head, the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who has loved his people before the foundations
01:48:03.980of the world were even laid, knowing who would belong to him, knowing whom Christ would die for,
01:48:10.020who would believe in him and trust in him and inherit eternal life. God has always perfectly
01:48:14.840loved us. So it's not as though there was a lack of love on the part of God until the incarnation
01:48:21.120and Christ took on flesh. So I'm not saying that. However, Hebrews also elsewhere in that letter
01:48:28.240speaks about Christ and his ability to be a merciful high priest on the basis of him taking
01:48:35.200upon himself a second nature, namely the human nature, and therefore being able to associate
01:48:41.220with humanity, being able to be an understanding high priest, being able to relate to us
01:48:47.740in our weaknesses, in our humanity. So even God, in other words, the second member, second person
01:48:54.240rather, of the Trinity, the Son, upon his incarnation, when he took on a human nature and
01:49:01.100shared flesh with us, shared the natural, the human nature, shared a nature with us,
01:49:09.160even the scripture speaks of that incredible miracle of the incarnation as one of the reasons
01:49:16.880why Christ is particularly merciful. And so even in the case of God, there's a sense in which
01:49:25.460the natural bond in the incarnation is what the author to the Hebrews, inspired by the Holy
01:49:32.100Spirit, cites as one of the reasons for his immense mercy, compassion, and kindness towards us.
01:49:38.320Yeah, and I would just say Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection fundamentally and
01:49:44.180preeminently eliminates the hostility between man and god the creation and the creator but also as a
01:49:51.140consequence of that you you can imagine these distinct peoples the consequence is also the
01:49:56.020elimination of hostility between the peoples not a dissolution of them altogether there's still it's
01:50:01.380still a real physical created category but they can actually recognize their differences i think
01:50:07.460going back to the lord of the rings example the dwarves and the elves and the men working together
01:50:12.580though distinct, but also having eliminated the hostility in the face of a common enemy.
01:50:18.560And that's sort of what we can recognize in Christ, both at the spiritual level, what he's
01:50:24.500done, but also at the physical level. And this goes back to this idea, because you'll get these
01:50:29.500accusations of, okay, when you're racially conscious, that makes you necessarily racist,
01:50:34.440or that means that your recognition of race as a category, it's generated by some antipathy.
01:50:40.120The only reason you'd ever use this word is to set yourself above someone or opposition or subjugate.
01:50:45.820That's the only possible use we would have for this idea.
01:50:47.940Yeah, and I think in the Christian frame, you actually can reject that altogether and say,
01:50:51.220no, we can recognize the categories and not be motivated by antipathy,
01:50:55.540but actually motivated by a desire to be hospitable toward one another,
01:51:00.280to care for one another in the ways that we can, though we're distinct and in different geographies.
01:58:20.640So that's where it begins to beg the question.
01:58:23.220It's not as though we finally, for the first time in human history, have a moral generation.
01:58:27.360I find that very hard to believe, considering that this is also the generation that, in America alone, murders a million babies in their mother's womb annually.
01:58:36.000So that doesn't seem to fit as an explanation.
01:58:39.640Well, you know, this is the first time people thought this way, but it's also the first time that we've ever had a moral upstanding generation, you know.0.93
01:58:45.540But everybody's a whore, and everyone murders their babies, and, you know, people are strung out on substance abuse.
01:58:51.700And, you know, but yeah, this is the first moral generation that's, no, that doesn't, that dog won't hunt.1.00
01:58:57.360So then the question is like, well, maybe it's the dumbest generation that's ever existed.1.00
01:59:01.600And because everybody is literally in a literal sense, you know, stupid, nobody can grasp1.00
02:20:05.120And some of those guys would probably even, they would even assume further.
02:20:09.760And they would say that you're a kinest, and the fine print is, aka, not only do you believe it's inherently sinful or immoral, but you also probably believe that segregation should be legislated, that it should be law, that interracial marriage is not only a sin, but should be treated by the civil magistrate as a crime, right?
02:20:30.660Not just a sin, but a crime, and it should receive certain penalties.
02:20:33.680um the bad faith actors in this conversation um those are the things that they're really trying
02:20:41.240to convey um they're when they say you're a kinnist um what they're really doing a guy like
02:20:47.960owen to be honest is what he really wants to say is you're a racist but he just knows that that
02:20:53.180word has lost 2018 anymore exactly yeah he just knows like if i call joel levin a racist
02:20:58.520then i'm going to be you know i'm going to get dragged i'm going to be you know made fun of
02:21:03.880because uh because the left has overplayed its hand and you know and owen wants to maintain
02:21:09.080that he's a conservative you know i'm not woke and really the only people who use the word racist are
02:21:15.320people who are woke you know they're not just well-meaning christians who are conservative
02:21:20.280no like the people who levy that charge and use that term you're a racist these aren't christians
02:21:25.700we all know these are radical progressive marxist communists right these that's that's who uses
02:21:31.920that kind of language and so i think part of it is just a tactic owen knows uh you can't really
02:21:37.220say racist anymore and and still have your audience believe that you're meaningfully
02:21:43.140conservative in any way so we had to come up with a new word uh that's not really had to go fishing
02:21:48.780find something from the past so i'm going to say you know kinest um but again what what guys like
02:21:54.780that, what they mean when they say, well, he's a kinnist, what they're saying is simply not what
02:22:00.560my position actually is. They're saying this guy believes that interracial marriage is inherently
02:22:04.880sinful in each and every case. He probably thinks that it should be a crime. He probably thinks that
02:22:09.900segregation should be legislated. And it's just not true. My position, I think that freedom of
02:22:16.540association should be restored. I don't believe that segregation should be legislated, that it
02:22:21.020should be mandated. But I do think that people, if they wish, should be permitted to segregate,
02:22:26.040even in the realm of sex, take race out of it. Right now, you can't even have a male-only gym
02:22:32.100without receiving certain legal penalties. So think about that. If you're a man and you want
02:22:36.760to get in shape, you either have to save up, you know, $1,000 to $1,200 to build a home gym in your
02:22:42.480garage and sweat to death during the summer as you're trying to exercise, or you have to go to1.00
02:22:47.000a co-ed gym because it's all that exists and see women who are dressed in thongs as you try to0.99
02:22:52.820avoid temptation and be faithful to your wife. Those are your two options. I think that's1.00
02:22:56.680atrocious. I think that's ridiculous. I think at the level of school, I just agree with common0.99
02:23:03.200moderates like C.S. Lewis, who even argued in the Silver Chair in his Narnia series. He opens up
02:23:08.700the book and talks about the school that Jill Pohl and Eustace Scrub were attending at that time.
02:23:13.340it's the very first page and he says that the the school in a derogatory way he calls it the
02:23:19.980experiment house and he's making fun of the school for being progressive and he says you know that0.99
02:23:24.760they um they were a nonsensical um you know idiotic uh school that uh that tried to educate boys and0.96
02:23:33.200girls and insisted that they should be in the same school rather than having an all-boys school and0.99
02:23:38.420an all-girls school. So this is, guys, C.S. Lewis, he's not even that old. Guys not that long ago,
02:23:44.700good, Christian, moderate, C.S. Lewis was not a radical, they would have said that it's absurd
02:23:50.480that you can't educate boys and girls separately because they're distinct, they're different. And so
02:23:56.320all that being said, you know, my position, I've articulated it several times, but once more I've
02:24:02.000officiated interracial marriages. What I would do pastorally is I would simply say, hey,
02:24:07.640you know, let's talk about in-laws. Let's talk about money. Let's talk about children. Let's
02:24:13.120talk about all the things that you would typically do in marriage counseling. And I would simply add
02:24:17.320one more topic to the discussion. I would say, let's also talk about the fact that you are two
02:24:22.440different people, different races, and different cultures, and there are going to be added
02:24:27.960challenges. You need to be aware of this. If you really feel called to get married, then it is
02:24:34.340biblically permissible, it is not a sin, and I will officiate the wedding, and it's a valid
02:24:40.180marriage in the sight of God. And you can love your wife as Christ loves the church and submit
02:24:46.520to your husband as the church submits to Christ and model the eternal wedding that exists between0.65
02:24:51.820Christ and his bride, the church, through your interracial marriage. But there are some reasons
02:24:58.320why you should perhaps slow down and prayerfully consider it. I don't believe that interracial1.00
02:25:06.000marriage is normative. And so a guy like Owen, a guy like Denny, that's ultimately what they're0.96
02:25:13.300doing is they're being dishonest and they're trying to sneak past certain accusations that
02:25:21.500just simply aren't true. These guys believe that interracial marriage is inherently sinful in each
02:25:27.280and every case. They probably believe that it should be a crime and penalized by the state.0.90
02:25:31.120They probably also believe that segregation should be mandated and legislated by the state.
02:25:35.220And those things just aren't true. If they were honest and said, well, Joel thinks X, Y, and Z,
02:25:39.860and they articulated my position correctly, it would deflate everything immediately because
02:25:45.680then it's like, what are you going to call me? Like, well, you know, you can't call me a kinnist.
02:25:51.140You can't call me a racist. So you would have to say, Joel Webin is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
02:25:56.400clothing, and a very, very, very dangerous man. Why? Because Joel Webin, he's a guy like C.S.
02:26:04.040Lewis. He's a guy like Machen. He's a guy like Rush Dooney. He's a guy like R.L. Dabney. Like
02:26:09.640Joel Webin holds the pretty much exact same views as every single Christian that we lead tours for
02:26:17.900and go to Europe to show you where these honorable men, their tombs are, you know, and Joel believes
02:26:22.360what they believe um well that's just that that doesn't land you know if that's your
02:26:27.300tickets to sell exactly like that's really hard if you're trying to build an audience and
02:26:31.440and trying to drum up fear you know and dismay like there are dangerous characters right now
02:26:37.020rising up within the reformed church and you got to be really careful really what what what are
02:26:41.380they like what do they believe like tell me i want i want to be on guard against the poison
02:26:45.620there are guys today um that um would probably sit down and have dinner with george washington
02:26:53.020Those guys that believe what Machen said.
02:26:55.580Yeah, there are guys today that would probably be pretty good friends