QUESTIONS - Is Postmil Necessary For Theonomy？
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Summary
Chris Matthews writes in with a question: "Can you be theonomic without being post-millennial?" In this episode, we discuss the relationship between theonomicism and postmillennialism, the role of the Son of God, and the nature of the divine nature of Christ.
Transcript
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Could you speak to the relationship between post-millennialism and theonomy?
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I see the appropriateness of desiring to apply God's standards in all areas of life, but I do
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not see the scriptures necessarily saying that the outcome of applying theonomic principles will
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play out in this world as the post-mill position believes it will. Can you have one without the
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other, in other words? So, great question. Basically, can you be theonomic without being
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post-millennial. And so I appreciate the question. Thank you, Chris Matthews, for writing in.
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This is what I would say. First, I want to simply say I'm encouraged that it sounds like the
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emphasis that you're giving in your question is to theonomy. And I think that this is right. I
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think that it is biblically right. What we have for centuries and centuries within church history
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is not a lot of, at least in the major historic creeds and confessions, no major consensus or
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specificity in regards to eschatology. And that was intentional. What we have to realize is that
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throughout the last 2,000 years of church history, since the life, death, resurrection,
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and ascension of Christ, we have a progressive sharpening of doctrine throughout church history.
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for the first couple centuries, two, three, even four centuries, the church is still just trying
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to figure out who Jesus is. They're trying to figure out the hypostatic union. They're trying
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to figure out, you know, was Jesus God? And what appeared to be flesh was not actually flesh,
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but rather just a hologram or an apparition, right? Is it Arianism? Is it Docetism? You know,
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there's all these heresies that creep up. The Eutychian heresy, the Nestorian heresy,
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all these have to do with Jesus and particularly regarding the two natures of Christ. And we
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believe that what the Bible teaches is that Jesus is fully God and fully man. He's not God,
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but appearing to be man. He's not man, but appearing to be God. He's not half God, half man,
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half man, half God. That's not what we have going on. Jesus is fully God and fully man.
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And so Philippians 2 that talks about him emptying himself, this is where heresies like
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He did not count equality with God as something to be grasped.
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And what that really translates to is something to be clinged to.
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So he was equal with God, is equal with God, always will be equal with God the Father.
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But he did not view this equality as something to be clinged to, but rather was willing to
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humble himself and to take on flesh, to humble and empty himself. And that emptying is what we
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would call subtraction by addition, that he did not actually remove the divine nature, but rather
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he took upon himself a second nature, namely the human nature. So it's divinity that is veiled or
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concealed. So the divinity doesn't go anywhere, but it is veiled and concealed by his human nature.
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So he doesn't substitute the divine nature for the human nature, but rather he adds to the divine nature, the human nature that veils and conceals it.
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And so it appears to be an emptying, it appears to be a subtraction, but it is subtraction by addition.
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Therefore, Jesus is fully God and fully man, right?
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So I can articulate that, but we take it for granted, right?
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You guys are probably saying, oh, of course, everybody knows that.
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Well, yeah, everybody knows that now, and there are plenty of heretics that still don't
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But for a long time, the church really had to wrestle with this, and God used heresy.
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God used, providentially, he uses false doctrines as an opportunity in his providence for the
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church to sharpen, further sharpen its theology and doctrine on these matters.
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So my point is, progressively, the church has grown in its doctrinal understanding.
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And for the first few centuries of the church, they were primarily combating heresies about
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the Son of God, about his being one person within the Godhead.
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So we have one God, three persons, and the second person in the Trinity, namely the Son
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Anybody who says that the Trinity is simple, I would question what they're saying.
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So one God, three persons within the second person of the Godhead, two natures.
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One God, three persons, two natures, speaking of Christ.
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And so we don't see a lot of eschatological statements being made by the church throughout
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And even as we get further along with the reformers and, you know, in the 1500s, 1600s,
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the Puritans, certainly they had an eschatology.
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Well, they believe that what they were doing, especially those Puritans that came to America,
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the Covenanters, they viewed the church as a city on a hill, and some of them viewed
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America as a city on a hill, that it was going to be a light to the world and show the beauty
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of God's law when it's actually applied to all of life, and that it would actually be
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They weren't just theonomic, but they were post-millennial.
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So these things start to come out, but still to this day, 2,000 years later, the church
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is very much divided over eschatology. And we would say that this is not a primary theological
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issue. So that's another thing that we have to take into account is theological triage, right?
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There are things that Christians must believe, primary issues. There are things that Christians
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should believe, secondary issues. And there are things that Christians may believe, tertiary
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theological issues. And so these things, doing theological triage properly is very important.
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And if we're trying to place eschatology, whether it be premil, and we really have two
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subcategories there, historic premillennialism, and then also dispensational premillennialism,
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you can find some individuals like Justin Martyr within just the first and second century
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of the church that held to a historic premillennialism.
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So it would be unfair to say there's no premillennialism in the early church.
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There was, but dispensational premillennialism is a modern phenomenon.
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and I believe that it is absolutely wrong. A lot of this came out of the Schofield Bible and also
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just Americans coming back from the First and Second World War and feeling defeated and hopeless,
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seeing just incredible evil with the Third Reich and all these kinds of things and feeling like,
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man, I don't know if things actually are getting better. So dispensational premillennialism,
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it's a modern phenomenon, but we do have the historic premillennial viewpoint early on in
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the church. All millennialism comes a little bit later, but you see that also early on. And you
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see post-millennialism early on. And you see post-millennialism have an uptick with the
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reform tradition, especially the Puritans. And then, like I said, with really, again,
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modern history, you see post-millennialism kind of go down on the charts as dispensational
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pre-millennialism rises, and a lot of that being newspaper exegesis rather than actually
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biblical exegesis, meaning people were looking at current events and the world wars and all
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these kinds of things, and then they were interpreting the Bible in light of those
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current events, cultural and political events, rather than just looking at the Bible plainly
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and what it actually says. So a little bit of eisegesis there instead of exegesis, but the
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point remains, whether you're pre-mill, all-mill, or post-mill, all this in terms of theological
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triage, I would say falls into the secondary category, meaning that all of these positions
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are still underneath the banner of Christian orthodoxy. It is not a matter of hell and heaven.
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It is not a matter of salvation. Whereas theonomy, while not being a matter of salvation
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on its face, right? So salvation, you know, we believe the five solas. We're saved by grace
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alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, according to the scripture alone, to the glory
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of God alone. However, you know, when we look at the book of James, faith without works is dead.
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Faith without works is dead. And that doesn't mean, just for the record, the difference between
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Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism, which I would believe is outside of that banner
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of Christian orthodoxy because there's clear denials of the gospel. The difference in a
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nutshell is this. The Protestant, well, let's start with the Catholic. The Roman Catholic would say
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faith plus works equals salvation. Faith plus works equals salvation. The Protestant would say
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that faith equals salvation plus works. So faith alone is sufficient to save. We're saved by grace
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through faith in christ alone but if we're actually saved the faith that saves saving faith
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is never alone so faith alone saves but saving faith is never alone it is always accompanied and
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rather proven evidenced by a life of good works right so all that being said theonomy in that
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sense, I think is a bigger, it ranks higher on theological triage than eschatology. That still
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doesn't mean theonomy is primary, but you have to understand within theological triage, it's not
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just like there are three shelves, okay? Imagine that there's primary, secondary, tertiary, but
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within each of these major categories, primary, secondary, tertiary, I would say there are multiple
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shelves. So especially within the secondary category, there are things higher on a higher
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shelf, still secondary, but also more important than something else that is secondary, right?
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So that you could have two theological issues that are both secondary in nature. So baptism,
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right? Modes of baptism in terms of pedo-baptism versus credo-baptism, the argument between,
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you know, Reformed Baptist and Presbyterians. This is secondary. It's not tertiary, right? It's
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secondary. It's not primary. It's not a matter of heaven and hell. It is secondary. But I would
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say that Calvinism, Calvinism and Arminianism, which is also secondary, ranks higher within the
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secondary category than baptism. I think it is theologically and biblically more important that
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someone be a Calvinist rather than Arminian than a Credo-Baptist rather than Paedo-Baptist,
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if that makes sense. So both secondary, but still within the secondary category,
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one higher than the other. So I would say theonomy and eschatology, likewise, are both
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within the secondary category. Neither one is a matter of orthodoxy, okay? But also neither one,
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I would say, is tertiary. I would say both are secondary, and I believe that it is theologically
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and biblically faithful to place theonomy above actually eschatology.
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And so to answer the question in brevity, the answer would be this.
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No, you don't have to be post-millennial to be theonomic.
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And really, we're going to have to flesh out what it means to be theonomic.
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And that's one of the other questions I want to get to.
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So we'll wait for just a moment, and I'll flesh that out more.
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But the way that it was summed up in Chris Matthews' question, I thought you did a great
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just saying all of christ for all of life uh that with theonomy ultimately what we're saying is
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theonomy god's law right so theonomy it's it's two words being put together theos and nomos right so
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it's god's law and really the the only alternative the primary alternative would be autonomy right
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and so ultimately it's either the creature and his own individual law man's law or it's god's law
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And what we have to recognize is that with most things in life, the question is not whether
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Everybody is going to live in line with some law, some set of morality, some standard for
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It's either going to be God's standard or it's going to be somebody else's standard,
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typically man's standard, either the collective society and culture as a whole or you as an
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but it's not a matter of whether, it is a matter of which. And so theonomy, we're simply saying
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God's law is the way that the world should function. And just for the record, the law of
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God was not merely given. It's not specific to the church. It is not specific to Christians.
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The basis for God's rights in issuing his law is not the basis of God as savior,
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but rather the basis of God as creator. Let me say that again. What is the basis,
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the foundation that ensures God's rights to deliver his law? It is the basis of him being
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creator, not savior, because God is savior of some, but he is universal creator, creator of all,
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all creatures, including all image bearing creatures, all humanity. So the law is given
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by the creator to all of his creatures so god is is a savior not of all we don't believe in
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universal salvation but we do believe in the universal creatorhood of god and is that on that
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basis not as god functioning as savior but rather god functioning as creator that god bears king
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rights creator rights to be able to issue to his creatures his law now what what portions of his
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law would be kind of the next question. What we have to start with is his moral law. When we say
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moral law, theologically, this is what is used, the phrase coined to describe the Decalogue. That
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is the 10 commandments that we find throughout the scripture, but most notably in Exodus chapter 20.
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So this is God's moral law. And people have made a case for natural law. And I would just say that
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I would align with many of the reformers who agreed that there was actually no distinction
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between natural law and moral law, that natural law and moral law were actually synonymous.
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So if we're speaking of natural law, what is it that God reveals through natural revelation?
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What is the law of God written on the hearts of men, not just Christian men, not just those
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who are regenerate, but all people simply by virtue of them being created in God's image.
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and God reveals something about himself and his moral standards through natural revelation.
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So Romans 1 really gets to natural revelation. Romans 2 really deals with natural law, right?
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So Romans 1 talks about how God's attributes can be clearly seen by what he has made through the
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cosmos, the created order. God is speaking through creation something about himself. We can see his
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his eternal power, his divine nature. These things have not just been clearly displayed by God,
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but the message has in fact been received by all people, even the unbeliever. The message has been
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received. These things, the text says in Romans 1, have been clearly perceived, not just presented
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by God, but received, perceived by the creature, by mankind. That's Romans 1. That's natural
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revelation. Romans chapter two talks about the Gentiles. And what the apostle Paul is getting
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at is he's talking about Gentile nations and cultures that have never received even an ounce
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of special revelation, special revelation being the written word of God, the prophets and the
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apostles inscripturated in the Bible. So there are Gentile nations that have never received
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an evangelist or a preacher or an apostle or the Torah or scrolls or any page of the Bible,
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no special revelation. And yet Paul says these Gentiles function as a law unto themselves by
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what? By virtue of the fact that they themselves written on their hearts have a set standard of
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morality. They themselves recognize internally, instinctually, we might say, that certain things
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are wrong, such as murder or theft. And so because their own consciences, he says in Romans chapter
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two, bear witness against them when they sin, that is proof, proof positive, that even without
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special revelation, simply by virtue of people being made in the image of God, there is natural
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law written on the hearts of men. Now, the question is, again, what is natural law? And I would say
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it's all 10 of the commandments, all 10. And some would argue here and divide the law up into two
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tables. And I would agree with that division in terms of the moral law of God, which I'm saying
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is synonymous with natural law. I believe they're one and the same. And I believe that moral and
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natural law is the deck log, the 10 commandments. But some would say moral law or divine law is all
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10 of the commandments, and natural law is more so referring to simply half of the 10 commandments,
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the second table within the 10 commandments. Now, the two tables of the law within the 10 commandments,
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the first table deals with the greatest commandment that Jesus gives us, right? That you
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should love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and all your mind. And we find
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this fleshed out in the first table of the Decalogue, the first four of the 10 commandments,
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right? Have no other gods before me. Do not make for yourselves any graven images. Do not take the
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Lord's name in vain and remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Jesus says the second greatest
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commandment is like it, that you should love your neighbor as yourself. And this would be fleshed
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out by the second table of the law, of the Decalogue, namely commandments number five through
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10, right? Number five, honor your father and mother. Number six, do not murder. Number seven,
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do not commit adultery. Number eight, do not steal. Number nine, do not bear false witness.
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And number 10, do not covet. And so some would say natural law is simply a reference to commandments
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number five through 10, how we should love our neighbor. And divine law, moral law, is the full
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decalogue, including commandments number one through four, how we should love the Lord our God.
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But I would argue that by virtue of natural revelation and natural law, natural revelation,
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God speaking displaying who he is by what he has made and natural law the conscience because we're
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made in the image of God that that that by virtue of both those things natural law and natural
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revelation we see not just the second table of the law how we should love our neighbor but also
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the first table of the law so the sabbath for instance the fourth commandment that deals with
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one of the ways in which we should love the Lord our God by remembering the sabbath and keeping it
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holy, I believe that this is within natural law and natural revelation. All right, let me explain
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real quick, natural revelation, where we get the fourth commandment. There are pagans and
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unbelievers who recognize that in agriculture, you would be wise to plant and harvest for six
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years, but on the seventh year to allow the land to rest. Because you can actually over time wear
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out the land if you are planting and harvesting using the land year after year after year without
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a break, without any rest. And it seems as though the best pattern of how long should we rest and
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how often should we rest is work the land for six years and rest for one. Now we find this within
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civil law given to Israel, but we also find this even among Gentiles and pagans and unbelievers
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recognizing that this pattern, this system, it naturally works because God has built it into
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the fabric of his natural world, the world that he has created. And so even in that,
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through natural revelation in terms of agriculture and breaking the land, resting the land in a one
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in seven year pattern, we see what? Well, we see a sense of divine law, the fourth commandment
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within the Decalogue being shown, being demonstrated to not just Christians through
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special revelation, but to all people through natural revelation. We also see this Sabbath
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principle in natural revelation simply by the way that God has set up the world to work
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with patterns of work and rest in terms of seasons, in terms of day and night, in terms of
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years. In terms of the way that the world rotates and orbits around the sun, God has built in
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patterns of time and God has built in patterns of produce and work and also rest. And the one
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in seven pattern, the one day in seven of rest seems to be something that is built in not just
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to special revelation, the Bible, but into natural revelation. It is something that can be
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gleaned. And we know from natural revelation in Romans chapter one, Paul says, the existence of
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God is plain to people. And not just his mere existence, but some of his attributes, namely
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his eternal power, his divine nature. These things are clearly displayed by what he has made.
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So there's the first commandment, have no other gods before me. There is a God in heaven who has
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created the world. He's worthy of worship and he should not have to compete for our worship. We
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should worship him alone. And he is the invisible God. Nobody has seen this God. And so we should
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not make graven images. We should not seek to do something that God has not willed to do himself,
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namely make the invisible God visible through images. There's the second commandment. And if
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he is the creator of the universe, the God who exists and who is eternal in his power and divine
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in his nature. It only makes sense to worship him alone, and it makes sense in our worship to
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worship with sincerity and to not be trite or trivial or take his name in vain. There's the
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third commandment, right? So my point is this. The Decalogue, the Ten Commandments, Exodus chapter 20
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is moral law, and I would argue that it is also natural law. And this functions, the Ten
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Commandments functions also as summary law, is what theonomists would say, summary law, meaning
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that the ceremonial law of Christ has been fulfilled by him and abrogated, done away
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with, because he is our forever high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
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He's also not only the high priest, but he is the sacrifice, the final sacrifice, the
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lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
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And he washes us not just by water in baptism, but he washes us by his blood.
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He has purified and sanctified the church, those who trust in him by his blood.
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So hand-washing and washing rituals and customs and the priestly sacrificial system in Israel,
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all these things have not only been fulfilled by Christ, but abrogated, that is done away
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So the three divisions of the law, the moral law of God, the ceremonial law, and the civil
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law, the ceremonial has been not only fulfilled, but abrogated.
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And the civil law of God, if we track this down, what we can see is the civil law of
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God is simply the practical application in Israel as a society and a culture and a nation. It's the
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practical obedience, the practical application of the Decalogue, of the moral law, right? You're
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taking the moral law of God and then simply applying it as case law to individual circumstances
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and situations, right? So one civil law example that's used often is building borders along the
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roof of people's houses. Well, within their culture, without having air conditioning, people
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often spending time on the roof to get the cool breeze. And especially in the summer months,
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people would even sleep on top of the roof instead of in the heat inside of their house.
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And so because people were spending time on the roof and there were flat roofs with tiles that
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could be moved and those kinds of things, right? You think of the gospel narrative where the four
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friends of somebody who was lame, they moved the tiles on the roof and lower him down for Jesus to
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heal him because the house was crowded. They couldn't get in, right? So you have flat roofs
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that are accessed and used frequently within that culture and their particular technology.
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And so because people are spending time on the roofs, there is a civil law,
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civil command given to make a border around the roof. Now, this is a practical obedience,
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a practical application, cultural, political application, national application to Israel,
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but it stems from the summary law of the Decalogue, the Ten Commandments. Which one? The Sixth
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Commandment, thou shalt not murder. The heartbeat of thou shalt not murder, stated in the positive
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sense, is thou shalt protect and esteem human life, because they've been made in the image of
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God. They have unparalleled dignity as image bearers of the living God. So not only is it
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wrong to murder and do harm, but really the commandment in its essence is to esteem and
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protect the sanctity of human life because human beings are created in the image of God.
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And so, boom, how do we apply that to this particular situation in Israel with people
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who spend time on their roofs and might fall off? Well, here's a civil code, a civil law,
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Now, that's not a one-to-one ratio for nations today,
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after the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
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So it's not a one-to-one ratio from civil law in Israel
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under the old covenant to civil law in America.
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Instead of a one-step, it's a two-step process.
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And step one is you track it back to its general equity, its general equity in the moral law.
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So you take the borders on the roof, that civil law, track it back to the sixth commandment.
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Then step two is, and how do we apply that given our technology, our culture, our time,
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our place here in America, and perhaps its speed limits on a highway.
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So the point is, that's how we apply the law of God.
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that is i i would argue now there is a breadth of differences um about theonomy and and how to
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define theonomy um but but that is what i would argue for that is is what has known guys like
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doug wilson have coined the phrase general equity theonomy and that is fully supported both by the
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1689 confession and the westminster confession it talks about how the ceremonial law has been
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abrogated the moral law is eternal and it's binding not just on the church but all people
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And then it goes further and talks about the civil law.
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yet the general equity of the civil law continues
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given to Israel is ultimately rooted in the summary law
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the Decalogue, the Ten Commandments, the Ten Commandments. And so all we're doing in theonomy
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is we're saying that nations should not abide by autonomy, man's law, which is constantly
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fluctuating, constantly evolving, constantly changing, and often immoral. But rather, it's
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not whether but which, we should function by theonomy, God's law. And when we ask which one
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of his laws, the Ten Commandments, because this has been revealed to all people by virtue of
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special revelation, but also natural revelation and natural law written on the hearts, the
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consciences of image-bearing creatures, mankind, this has been given to all people, all 10
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of the commandments, moral law synonymous with natural law, and therefore this should
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be enforced in every place, every nation, every time, every culture, for all people,
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whether they identify as Christian or not, God gives this to all people on the basis
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not of him being savior of some, but creator of all. And civil law is simply the practical
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application, the practical application of the general equity of summary law, namely the 10
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commandments. And so that in a nutshell is theonomy, at least the theonomy that has been
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become kind of getting a bit of a resurgence these days, general equity theonomy, that is
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simply all we're advocating for. That is a historic position. That is the Westminster position. That
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is the 1689 position. And I would say that that is dealing with God's law for all people and the
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absolute mandate for us to obey. And in that sense, obedience, practical, what we're talking
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about ultimately with theonomy and post-mill theology is we're talking about theonomy,
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practical obedience to christ versus particular position of eschatology which one's more important
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theonomy practical obedience to christ so chris matthews you're you're correcting the question
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practical obedience to christ trumps a particular eschatology and all you're asking with your
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question with the correlation does there have to be a correlation between theonomy and
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postmillennialism is basically, will theonomy be successful? That's really what you're asking. So
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you're agreeing theonomy should be done. We should be obedient to apply the law of God to every area
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of life. And so you're right on the money there. And postmill is simply just asking not what we
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should do, but what will work. Not what we should do, but what will work. So theonomy really doesn't
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address whether or not it'll work. Theonomy primarily just addresses the question of what
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should we do? And the answer is we should obey God. We should obey God. And we should seek to
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not just obey God theoretically or in our hearts or privately with this pietism, but we should
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obey God practically with our hands and feet and not just in some areas of society, in some areas
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of human life, but in all of life, the whole counsel of God for the whole of human life and
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human society. That's theonomy. What should we do? And so every Christian should be a theonomist.
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every christian should esteem the law of god and seek to apply it and seek to obey it and seek to
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encourage others to do the same that's that's theonomy and yes that trumps post-millennialism
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so really you can be a theonomist without being post-mill um you can be essentially what i'm
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saying is you can be a theonomist and believe that this is what we should do but it won't actually
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work it won't be successful in christianizing the nations and ultimately christians attempts
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to be obedient and encourage others to be obedient will ultimately lend them towards
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persecution, but Christ will come back in the bottom of the ninth and save a weak and
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wobbly church that's on the ropes, but he will save the church from the world that is
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in power and that is persecuting the church, and the church will therefore gain victory
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by proxy because Christ will come back and win the day, right?
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So you could be a theonomist and have that kind of that pessimistic eschatology, whether
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it be all-mill or whether it be pre-mill, not all millennials are pessimistic, but some
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So you could be pre-mill, you could be all-mill, but still be theonomic.
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And here's the final thing I'll say on this question.
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I would rather you be theonomic and pre-mill or all-mill than be post-mill and not be
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And so the question particularly was, can I be theonomic and not post-mill?
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But that kind of brings up another question, which is, can you be post-mill and not theonomic?
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There are some post-mill Presbyterians, especially like in Escondido Westminster, that are two
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I don't have time to go into that, but suffice it to say, they are not theonomic.
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and yet they would hold to the post-mill position.
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And if you're post-mill and you think lots of people
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some of those people, it would stand to reason,
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will be in positions of the civil magistrate.
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And so what does a Christian in the civil magistrate,
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Christian Supreme Court justice, what do they do? What does being a Christian look like in that
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vocation, in that station of life? I think it looks like legislating God's law. Thanks so much
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for listening, but real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a
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five-star review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get
00:33:43.000
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