QUESTIONS - Should Christians Imitate The Amish？
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss why the reformed Christian movement has a disdain for small towns and rural areas, and why the Amish have a fondness for community. We also discuss the role of urban church planting in the reform movement, and the role that urbanism has played in it.
Transcript
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Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.
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Josh Simpson. And this is actually, we wanted to start off with this question.
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This was something that Josh wrote in last week, but I didn't have a chance to get to,
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so I'm going to do my best today. Josh Simpson, he writes, why doesn't the reformed Christian
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movement orient like the Amish do in terms of community and all living around each other?
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There are plenty of counties in Texas where this is possible. Fannin County would be an example,
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buying up land and keeping it within the family. All right, great question. Thank you,
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josh simpson for writing in um here's my response um i am not against that so i'm kind of with you
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josh in the sense that i would say great question why why don't reform communities do this um i
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think there's a number of reasons one reason would be this unfortunately guys like tim keller
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um city to city you know um the gospel-centered movement um early on in the young reformed and
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restless movement, right? There were guys who had been reformed, you know, from the womb,
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basically, you know, guys like, like R.C. Sproul, you know, and so there were these,
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these older men who were very influential. And then there was this kind of rise of all these
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young men in their twenties, um, who were embracing reform theology and the doctrines
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of grace and coming into these, um, this way of thinking this theological lens. And, um,
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And I think it quickly got hijacked and got distracted at best and perverted at worse
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And one of those ways is the fact that it very quickly geared towards urban church planting,
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In and for the city became kind of a mantra, kind of a rallying cry.
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Nobody would outright say it because if you say it, it sounds sinful and wicked because
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it is, but there was a disdain for rural communities. There was kind of a disdain for
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small towns, right? It's like, if you really are serious about the Lord and church planting and
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want to make a difference, then you got to plant a church in San Francisco. You got to plant in
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Washington, DC. You need to plant in New York. You need to plant in LA, right? And that was kind of
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the thought process. So what happened is that you got a lot of these reformed guys who over the last
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15, 20, 25 years, this young reformed restless movement went into these urban settings with
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extremely high cost of living, already established communities with established economies and
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certainly leaning left politically, so bad policies, but still established places.
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And so it was hard for these young guys, many of them to, these churches, for them to actually
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own land, start businesses, right? Because you're going to places that are oppressive towards
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conservative Christian values, right? You're going to the places where there's the highest
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regulation on starting a business. There's the highest prices for owning a home. There's not a
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lot of school options. And so that's something that's very difficult. And you often are having
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to rely on a second income from your wife. And so you're sending your kids to public school and it
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was just kind of compromise after compromise after compromise. And sadly, what ended up happening is
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over the years, you start to recognize that these big cities, these big cities are kind of
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discipling these reformed churches more than the reformed churches are actually discipling and
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impacting and influencing the big city. So I think a big part of it was an overemphasis on urban
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ministry, the urban city context, and a disdain for small towns and rural areas. And I think that
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it's because one of the sins of the young, reformed, and restless movement was the fear of
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man. And what I mean by that is the desire for the approval of the public. They wanted a seat
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at the cool table, right? They wanted to be popular. They wanted to be significant, meaningful,
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valuable. And so they wanted to go where all the cool kids were in these big towns and they wanted
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to be light. And so reformed soteriology came in and their church planting, but they were missing
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a lot of the key reformed traditions and aspects like, for instance, the regulative principle of
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worship, right? So you think of like Mark Driscoll. Yeah, Mark Driscoll at the time was reformed in
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his soteriology. I don't know where he's at now. And even then it was still debatable where he
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stood with limited atonement. So R.C. Sproul, you know, he used to say, what do you call a four
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point Calvinist? Well, you call them an Arminian, right? It's not even that you're barely reformed,
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you're not reformed. And so these guys, you know, were waving the reformed flag, but they really
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weren't reformed. A lot of the guys in the Young Reformed Restless Movement really weren't reformed.
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They had adopted reformed soteriology, but that's about it. The regular principle of worship went
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out the window. A Puritan way of thinking was out the window. And so when it came to how they
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were doing church, it's like, well, we're going to have, you know, strong reformed preaching,
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but an attractional kind of seeker-sensitive methodology in terms of our worship. We're
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going to have the rock band, and we're going to have the dimmed lighting. Our churches aren't
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going to look like churches. They're going to look more like a nightclub. We're going to do
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this thing, focus on these things in the area of big urban context cities. And so I think,
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Josh, to get to your question, I think that you're going to see more of that. You got guys like me,
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and I'm just one example. What I'm doing is really not that unique. I continue to hear from more and
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more pastors and Christians, reformed Christians who are following suit. They're moving out of
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blue states to red states. They're moving out of big cities to small towns. They're trading in
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their condo and buying a couple acres of land with an old house. More people are homesteading
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than ever before. You know, you have all these blessings that came about over the last two years,
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right? COVID was ridiculous, especially our nation's response to it. But in the providence
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of God, many mercies were distilled to the church, to those who are the true church, those who are
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actually regenerate, actually Christians. One of the mercies is that through the last two years,
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God kind of lifted the veil in terms of all of our major institutions and revealed to us
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that they were discredited, that they were corrupt, right? Media is a joke now. The legacy
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media is a joke. Our politicians, at least the current administration that we have in the White
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House is a joke. We know it's a joke. The Democrat Party, right? 49 out of 50 Democrats just voted,
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not to codify Roe, that's a lie. They voted for abortion to be legal in all 50 states for any
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reason all the way up until the point of birth, way further than Roe. So now it's not nearly as
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difficult as it was once upon a time for me to say, if you vote Democrat, that's a sin. And if
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you are corrected lovingly by the elders in your church for that sin, and you refuse to respond to
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that correction, you refuse to repent, and you plan and you voice your intention to vote Democrat
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again in the future, then you are going to be placed under church discipline. That's how serious
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I take that. I think it is a sin. And if it's unrepentant sin, then yes, I would excommunicate
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someone for the sin, the unrepentant sin of being a Democrat and supporting the Democrat Party.
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Now, that's been a reality for a long time, but it would be really hard to make that argument
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five years ago, or at least harder to make that argument five years ago. And now a lot of people
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are like, yeah, no duh, totally makes sense. So it's this mercy of God lifting the veil. But one
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of the institutions, politics, media, higher academia, pharmaceutical companies, so the
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medical institution has been revealed with its corruption, the CDC, the WHO, all these different
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things. But sadly, one of the institutions also that the corruption was revealed, the hypocrisy
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was revealed, is Big Eva, the institution of the evangelical church. And so, a lot of people,
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what we have right now is, I believe, a nationwide providential game of musical chairs. You have
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people who are switching teams and the nation is polarizing politically, culturally, theologically,
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but also geographically, because it's so polarized now in terms of worldview that if the left has
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influence in a particular place, they make it virtually unlivable for anybody who holds to
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conservative Christian values, right? Somebody who wants to get married, have their wife be a keeper
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at home, Titus chapter two, have multiple children, not subject their children to the public school,
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care for their aging parents, honor their father and mother as their parents begin to age,
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be able to not just put them in a home, but care for them and save up to give an inheritance to
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their children's children and give 10% of their income to their local church and trying to be
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faithful with the tithe as a starting point. People who are living that way, people who want
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to live that way, they can't live in New York. They can't live in San Francisco. And so they're
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moving. And so right now, because the nation is polarized politically, culturally, and all that
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going downstream from theologically, right? It's our theology that influences our politics and our
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cultural worldview and all these things. Because of that polarization and it being so hot,
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so stark, it's lending towards geographic polarization. And as that continues to happen,
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that's what happened with me. I left California. I never liked California, but I was there because
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people need Jesus. But then it came to a point where it's like, okay, for me to reach these
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people who need Jesus in California, it's going to come at the cost of my own wife and children.
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And the Bible is really clear that the Lord desires obedience, not sacrifice. And in a big
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picture, that's what the evangelical church did over the last 50 years, is we evangelized the
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world through global missions, and all of our children grew up and went apostate.
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what we did what i'm saying is what we did essentially is um we in the name of the mission
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of evangelism reaching the lost we did it but we did it at the cost not of our personal liberties
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and comforts it's one thing to sacrifice your your personal comforts and pleasures that's what
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i would call gospel sacrifice but sinful sacrifice is is uh fulfilling the mission of god the alleged
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admission of God, but at the cost of obedience to God. And the Bible is really clear about that.
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The Lord does not desire sacrifice, but obedience. And so as it becomes more and more practically
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challenging to obey God at the level of the home and the family and wives and children and
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grandchildren, all these things, as it becomes more difficult to obey God in big cities and blue
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states, you're going to see Christians leave. And we're seeing that already. And we're only going to
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see, I believe, more of that, especially if Roe's overturned. Think about that. If Roe is overturned,
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and I think it will be, I think these Supreme Court justices will hold the line. Well, we know,
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those of us who have some education, we know that Roe being overturned does not abolish abortion
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across the country. That's really when the fight just gets started. And we should have been fighting
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that way all along, ignoring Roe. It was never law, right? That's why the Democrats are trying
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to codify it into law and they have been unsuccessful, praise God, and failed. So what
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you're going to have is like Gavin Newsom with California has already come out and said, we're
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going to be an abortion sanctuary. They're literally going to be a baby murdering tourist
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destination for the whole country and baked into their state taxes, right? So if you're a Christian
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living in California, you are going to be by your presence of living there and paying taxes,
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you are going to be funding not only the murder of children in the womb with mothers who are
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residents of your state, but also covering the airfare, the lodging, so the travel, the lodging,
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the meals, and the procedure, the murder of women coming from Kansas who want to get an abortion.
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So when Roe is overturned, you're going to see some states, and I think it's going to take time,
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But you're going to see some states, namely red states, actually get rid of abortion.
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And then you're going to see blue states just double down.
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And so as these things continue to happen, the economic policies that affect work and
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living and all these, and then also these policies like abortion, you're going to see,
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continue to see not just polarization of thought, but geographic polarization.
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And as we see more of that, I think more Christians are waking up to the idea that maybe there
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is something, some merit to the scripture that says that we should seek to live quiet
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lives working with our hands so that we would not be dependent on anyone.
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That's another thing that over the last two years, God has mercifully revealed over the
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last two years of chaos in our nation is we all have come to recognize we're a lot more
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dependent, dependent than, than we actually thought we were and that we should be. And so
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more people are seeking to become independent, economically independent, not dependent on the
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public school system, not dependent on, um, big woke corporations, not dependent on this,
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not dependent on that. And so as more people are trying to become financially, um, and communally
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independent, I think you're going to see more people moving, uh, not just out of blue states
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of red states, but out of big cities into smaller towns where there is land in certain counties in
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Texas looking to buy up land and property, looking to start schools, looking to start churches,
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conservative biblical churches. And I think reform guys are doing this. What we've saw,
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I'll end with this. What we've seen with the young reformed restless movement over the last
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20, 25 years is this. About half of them just wanted to be cool. And those are the guys who
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have gone apostate. Those are the guys who are blowing smoke up the butt of David French and
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Francis Collins and Tim Keller and all the blue checks on Twitter, right? So agreeing with him.
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So half of them have fallen away and proven themselves to be tares and not wheat. But the
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other half have moved from just mere reformed soteriology into a full-orbed reformed, not just
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soteriology, but a biblical worldview. And they're embracing not just reformed soteriology,
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but the regular principle of worship. They're embracing all of Christ for all of life. They're
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embracing post-millennial eschatology. They're embracing like a general equity theonomy,
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like I talked about last week, applying the scripture to the civil realm. And as we see
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more of that, I'd say, you know, the fruit of the young reformed restless movement is about half of
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them just wanted to be cool. But by God's grace, I think another half of them really want to be
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obedient to Jesus Christ and are starting to obey Jesus Christ in practical ways, including moving
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and starting communities and those kinds of things. Now, all that said, I don't think we'll
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ever be like the Amish, at least in this regard. I think the Amish are onto something in some sense,
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but we do want to do the work of an evangelist. We want to do the work of an evangelist. And
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So this comes from like Jim Wilson, Doug Wilson's dad, but he wrote Principles of War. He took all
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of his military training and applied it to ministry and particularly evangelism. And one
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of the big ideas from that book is the decisive point. A decisive point is a place that is
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winnable, but it's also significant. Winnable and significant, right? So New York City,
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it'd be significant if we could win it, but it's currently not winnable. It's just not.
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And then the proverbial Timbuktu with a population of 240 people, more cattle than there are
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actually people, well, it's winnable, but it's not really significant.
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I think more people are saying, okay, I want to find places that strike the balance between
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significance and safety, safety to where I can raise my children in peace and fulfill
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the commandments that Christ gives me as a father.
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I want to be obedient, but I also want to be on mission.
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So I don't want to be on mission at the cost of obedience, but I don't want to be obedient
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at the cost of mission because a mission apart from obedience is not real mission.
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That's not the mission of God and obedience at the cost of mission being on mission is
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not true obedience or at least not full obedience.
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And so finding that, that happy medium, I think that's going to be found in red states
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in, in smaller towns, but I don't think it's going to be found, um, in, in, you know, the
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middle of nowhere, Timbuktu, there's, there's not a single person alive. There's not even a town
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there. And we're going to build our own town and build a wall kind of like a M. Night Shyamalan,
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the village, you know, and I don't think that that's, that that's the ticket. I don't think
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that that's what we do. I do think though, that we, we move towards red States. We move towards
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smaller towns that are, are still, you know, they're winnable, but they're also significant,
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right? There are people there and there is influence there and there is culture there
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that we can influence, that we can evangelize, that we can disciple, and it actually would make
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a difference. So I think that's what we're going to see. And in that sense, I think we will become
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more independent. Reformers will begin to have whole towns. That's what Doug has done in Moscow,
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right? Think about this. More people are aware of the name of the town that Doug Wilson is in
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than the name of his church. I'll say that again. Think about that. More people, if you say Doug
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Wilson, and they're aware of who Doug Wilson is, there's a higher likelihood that they'll be able
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to name the town that Doug Wilson lives in than the name of the church that Doug pastors.
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That says something. And I don't think it says that he doesn't love his church because he does.
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And I think he's a faithful pastor. But what it means is that Doug is committed to a lot more
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than just planting and pastoring a church. Doug has been committed for 40 years now to taking over
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a town, taking over a town. And in many ways, he's been successful. And I think we'll see
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more of that. Thanks so much for listening, but real quick, before you go, do us a small favor,
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