The NXR Podcast - November 05, 2022


QUESTIONS - Should Christians Judge Outsiders？

Topics
separation of church and state
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Paul Kevin Wants Jamie White Joseph Boot Joel Webin Gary DeMar Earthly Felix Herod
DAILY TRUTH - ＂The Chief of Sinners＂ SUNDAY SERMON - Finding God’s Presence In The Midst Of Pain ｜ Psalm 42

Episode Stats


Length

18 minutes

Words per minute

174.15

Word count

3,257

Sentence count

304

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

41

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Kevin Wendt asks a question about Christians getting involved in politics, abortion, and the pro-life movement. "Is it not those inside the church who are to judge?" Pastor Ken answers this question and explains why the church has a role in this.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.
00:00:03 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,
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00:00:21 Here we go. This is from Kevin Wendt.
00:00:24 How would you answer someone that brings up 1 Corinthians 5, verse 12 and 13
00:00:29 in opposition to the church and Christians getting involved in the political sphere,
00:00:33 even the abortion mill ministries, et cetera. I believe that theonomy is good. And in the 0.99
00:00:39 post-millennial hope, I am just wondering the best way to answer this. Thank you. All right,
00:00:45 let me find it. First Corinthians chapter five. I know exactly what you're talking about,
00:00:49 but I want to be able to read the text. First Corinthians chapter five, verse 12 and 13
00:00:56 says this, for what do I have to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom
00:01:05 you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. Oh my goodness, 0.94
00:01:12 if I had a dollar every single time, a well-meaning but very foolish Christian quoted that 0.96
00:01:17 in order to say that we shouldn't care about politics, I would be a very, very rich man. 0.99
00:01:23 Let me read it one more time. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those
00:01:29 inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from 0.94
00:01:36 among you. All right. First, for what have I? Who's I? The apostle Paul. What is the apostle 0.98
00:01:42 Paul? He's an apostle. An apostle of the world? An apostle of the civil magistrate? An apostle
00:01:50 of medicine. No, an apostle in the church. He has a position of ecclesiastical authority
00:01:58 commissioned by Christ in his church. So Paul is saying, I, as a churchman, as a clergy member of
00:02:07 sorts, the highest to be sure, but as a clergyman, what business do I have with judging people
00:02:14 outside of the church? I am a leader in the church. That's my domain. Then he goes further.
00:02:19 then he says, is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Who's the you? So the I
00:02:25 is the Apostle Paul. What is the Apostle Paul? A clergyman in the church. Who's the you? The you
00:02:30 is the entire city of Corinth. No, it's the church at Corinth. It's the saints. It's members
00:02:38 in the church. So he's saying, is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? This is
00:02:44 who you're supposed to judge. Then verse 13, he says, God judges those outside. Purge the evil 0.98
00:02:51 person from among you. And what he's saying in that case is he's talking about the man who
00:02:55 had sexual relations with his stepmother, a kind of sexual perversion not even heard of 0.93
00:03:00 among the Gentiles. And he's saying he needs to be excommunicated, handed over to Satan. He needs 0.99
00:03:06 to be removed from the roster of the church. Treat him as a tax collector or a Gentile, 1.00
00:03:11 no longer regarding him as a brother for the saving of his soul, the destruction of his flesh, 0.93
00:03:16 but the saving of his soul, which is in fact what happened because when Paul writes back to the
00:03:21 Corinthian church in second Corinthians chapter two, he tells him to welcome that same man. I
00:03:26 believe it's the same man back in. All right. So Paul is basically what he's saying is, look,
00:03:30 we're not judging outsiders here, but we are judging those in the church. And we got a guy
00:03:33 in the church right now who needs to be purged. That's what Paul's saying. So I, as an authority
00:03:39 in the church, I deal with the church. And you as members of the church make judgments also. You have
00:03:47 a role in this judgment, not just me top down, but the church itself needs to corporately and
00:03:52 in a unified sense needs to purge this evil person from among the church. Now, all that being said,
00:03:59 verse 13, he says, God judges those outside the church. Now, here's the deal. Let's look at that
00:04:05 real quick. You guys are going to love this, right? The favorite text of everybody to quote
00:04:13 over the last two and a half years, Romans 13. What? Romans 13. Here we go.
00:04:26 Romans 13. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority
00:04:31 except from God. God sovereignly appoints human civil magistrates, and those that exist have been
00:04:38 instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed,
00:04:43 and those who resist will incur judgment. Go back, 1 Corinthians 5, verse 13. God judges those
00:04:50 outside, but how? By what means? Through what agency? There is a human agency that God uses
00:05:01 to judge those outside of the church.
00:05:04 What is it?
00:05:05 It's a civil magistrate.
00:05:06 Those who resist the authorities
00:05:08 resist what God has appointed
00:05:09 and those who resist will incur judgment.
00:05:13 For rulers are not a terror to those who do good,
00:05:15 but to bad.
00:05:17 Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?
00:05:19 Then do what is good
00:05:20 and you will receive his approval.
00:05:21 For he is God's servant for your good.
00:05:24 But if you do wrong, be afraid,
00:05:26 for he does not bear the sword in vain.
00:05:29 He is the servant of God
00:05:30 an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. So 1 Corinthians 5, verse 13,
00:05:38 God judges those outside. How? By the avenger that God instituted, by the servant of God,
00:05:47 by God's deacon, the civil magistrate. He's the one who carries out God's wrath on the outsider. 0.52
00:05:53 right? So you have not two kingdoms. Get that garbage out of here. You have three spheres,
00:06:01 the home, the church, and the state. The home, the church, and the state. There are leaders,
00:06:07 fathers, I would say. This is the father's world. He works through fathers. This is patriarchy.
00:06:13 There are fathers in each of these three spheres that are in authority, that rule, and are called
00:06:18 to rule righteously according to the scripture. There are familial fathers in the home. The father
00:06:22 is the head of his children. He's certainly the head of his wife. The scripture teaches this. 0.98
00:06:26 There are ecclesiastical fathers in the church. There's a reason why elders, leaders in the church
00:06:31 are to be men. And there are fathers in the civil magistrate. Now I understand that we have a bunch
00:06:36 of women in positions of high up civil authority, but that's God's judgment. That's not something 1.00
00:06:41 to boast about. It should be men, right? Because the civil magistrate bears the sword and the sword
00:06:46 belongs to men, not women, despite what, what female elf wields the sword, you know, in the 0.95
00:06:53 rings of power in God's world, according to God's word, men are the ones who wield the sword and 1.00
00:07:00 the sword belongs to the civil magistrate. It should be men. They're the ones who are called 0.74
00:07:03 to rule. So all that being said, um, you have three different spheres and certainly in terms
00:07:08 of the people, there are overlap, right? Um, people who belong to the church also belong to
00:07:13 families, and they also belong to a sovereign nation. They are citizens in a nation. So there
00:07:18 are multiple different identities and belongings that each of these people have. But what Paul is
00:07:23 saying when he says, hey, it's not my business to judge outsiders, great, because he's an apostle.
00:07:28 And you, and in what sense is he speaking to the Corinthians in that instance? He's talking about
00:07:33 you insofar as it regards your status as church members are not to judge those outside, but to
00:07:40 judge those inside. And right now you need to judge this particular person by rendering a
00:07:46 righteous judgment, excommunicating him, handing him over to Satan in line with the teachings of
00:07:50 Christ in Matthew chapter 18, church discipline. Okay. That's what he's saying. But he's not saying
00:07:55 that no one judges outsiders. Yes, he says God judges outsiders, but we know that this is also
00:08:00 Paul, Romans chapter 13. How does God judge outsiders? Through people, through people,
00:08:05 but it's another sphere. So he uses the leaders in that sphere, but those leaders are supposed
00:08:10 to be God's servants, right? Caesar is not God. Caesar submits to God. Caesar is a servant of God.
00:08:19 Yes. Separation of church and state as two sovereign spheres. Yes. And amen. Separation
00:08:24 of Christ and state. No, we do not want an ecclesiocracy, a church run state or a state 0.82
00:08:31 run church, which is what we've had for several decades. Now we don't have a church run state,
00:08:35 but we do have a state run church. We don't want either. We want a separation of church and state,
00:08:40 but we don't want a separation of Christ and state. That means we reject ecclesiocracies, 0.73
00:08:45 but we would adhere to a theocracy. We do adhere to that. We believe that Christ is king. Here's
00:08:53 the deal. Christ is king of kings. Ever heard that line before? Christ is king of kings. Okay.
00:08:58 which kings is he king of? Earthly kings. Christ is king over the kings of this earth,
00:09:06 over the civil magistrate, over Caesar. These guys are, now certainly we have plenty of tyrants.
00:09:12 We have plenty of people in the realm of the civil magistrate that have rejected the lordship,
00:09:17 the kingship of Christ. But that's not how it has to be. That's not how it's supposed to be.
00:09:21 And that's not how it ultimately will be as the great commission advances and the gospel goes
00:09:27 forth and we make disciples of all nations. Here's the deal. Just think about this logically
00:09:33 for a second. This is what you ultimately have to theologically affirm in order to get rid of
00:09:38 theonomy. What you would have to say is that a Christian cannot, cannot in a moral righteous 1.00
00:09:45 sense serve in any position in the state. Christians cannot be service members in the Navy 1.00
00:09:52 or the air force or the army or the Marines, uh, Christians cannot be police officers. 1.00
00:09:59 They cannot run for local office. They can't be council members. They can't be governors. They 1.00
00:10:03 can't be, um, they can't be, uh, judges. They, they can't be president. They can't, none of that.
00:10:08 That is a thoroughly unbiblical and sin. It's a sin for Christians to be in the civil magistrate. 1.00
00:10:15 That's a position you would have to hold because the only alternative position is that, 0.99
00:10:19 is that God calls people. We see this in 1 Corinthians 7. Now, I understand it's primarily
00:10:24 talking about marriage as the case study, but the principle, I believe, applies to other realms and
00:10:30 other examples as well. God calls people, God saves people, and they should remain in the station 0.75
00:10:36 of life in which they were in when God called them. Now, not in every instance, right? So like
00:10:42 if you're a criminal and you get saved, well, you exit that career. You go ahead and retire
00:10:49 from your career being a criminal. But what if you're a Philippian jailer? What if you're a 0.94
00:10:55 centurion? What if you're Felix, a governor? You know what I mean? Like what happens when you're
00:11:04 in the civil magistrate? And here's the deal, Jesus addressed these things. There were Roman
00:11:08 soldiers who asked Jesus, what does it look like for us now as Christians to live a Christian life,
00:11:15 to be your disciples. And Jesus says, well, you must exit that realm. You must quit your job.
00:11:22 Nope. Jesus does not say that. Jesus says, you must do your job Christianly. Jesus does not say
00:11:30 it is Christian to get out of that job in the civil magistrate. No, he says a Christian civil
00:11:36 magistrate just needs to do his civil magistrate job in a Christian way, in an ethical way,
00:11:43 not exploiting, not oppressing, but in an ethical way, according to whose standards? Caesar's. No,
00:11:49 no, Caesar doesn't get to decide what belongs to Caesar. Yes, we are called to render unto Caesar
00:11:55 what belongs to Caesar. The question is who decides what belongs to Caesar? Well, it's the
00:12:00 king above all kings, Jesus, Jesus. So all this being said, what business do we have judging
00:12:07 outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Great. Yes. That's speaking
00:12:13 about our role as church members. Paul speaking as a church clergyman in his role as an apostle
00:12:20 in the church to other people, Christians in Corinth, regarding their position, their status,
00:12:27 their responsibilities in their vocation as church members. Paul is not saying that no Christian,
00:12:33 that none of those church members in Corinth could hold in terms of their vocation, a job
00:12:37 in the civil magistrate, and that if they did hold said job, that there's no transcendent
00:12:45 standard from the word of God that they should abide by.
00:12:49 Paul's not saying that.
00:12:50 That is eisegesis of the highest order.
00:12:53 So when Paul says, we don't have business judging people outside of the church, that's
00:12:56 right.
00:12:56 Christians, when we're wearing our churchman hat, as it pertains to the realm, the sovereign
00:13:03 sphere of the church, the ecclesiastical realm, as we are wearing our church hat, we don't judge
00:13:09 outsiders. But guess what? As human beings, we hold, we wear more than one hat, right? You're
00:13:17 a member of a local church. Great. Praise God. You're also a dad in the realm of the family and
00:13:23 a husband or a mother and a wife, a brother, a sister. And you also have a job. You're a
00:13:30 businessman, you're a farmer, or you're a police officer, or a council member, or a governor,
00:13:36 or a mayor. And in all those things, unless we're going to make an argument, and this is what the
00:13:42 radical two kingdom guys basically have to do, they won't, but this is the logical implication
00:13:46 of their view. They basically have to say it is a sin for Christians to serve in the civil
00:13:51 magistrate. But it's not. Clearly from the Bible, it's not. So then the question is, for those
00:13:57 Christians who do serve in the realm of the state, they're members in the church, they're fathers in
00:14:03 the home, husbands in the home, but then they're also a police officer or a governor or a council
00:14:09 member in the state. So as it pertains to the home, what standard do they use? The Bible. They
00:14:15 love their wives according to God's law. They love their children according to God's law. In the
00:14:21 church, how do they function? According to God's law, according to the scripture. And in their
00:14:26 position, their vocation in the civil magistrate, how do they function? Well, as a neutral entity,
00:14:33 according to the principles of classic liberalism. As a libertarian? No. As a Christian.
00:14:41 In this particular case, a Christian nationalist, a Christian civil magistrate, a Caesar submitted to
00:14:48 Christ as king over the king, right? The law is king. Whose law? God's law. God's law is king. 0.52
00:14:57 And so then what do those civil magistrates do? Those Christian civil magistrates do? Well, 0.96
00:15:02 according to Romans 13, what they do is they judge outsiders. That's the point. They judge 1.00
00:15:08 outsiders. So we do judge outsiders. We just don't do it in the sovereign sphere of the church.
00:15:14 We need to have clear, that's all we're doing. We just need to have clear categories. So that
00:15:18 doesn't mean Christians don't ever judge those outside of the church. No, Christians judge as 0.95
00:15:23 they're wearing their church hat, as members of a local church, they judge those in the church. 0.56
00:15:27 But then those very same Christians, especially with the post-millennial hope, as the leaven 0.95
00:15:32 works through the whole batch of dough, as the nations are Christianized, as the mustard seed 0.99
00:15:36 grows into a tree, as the stone cut by no human hands grows into a mountain that fills the earth, 0.94
00:15:41 as more and more Christians come, some of those Christians are going to be civil magistrates. 0.96
00:15:45 And what do they do? They act like Christian civil magistrates, which means they judge 0.97
00:15:49 outsiders. And that is God judging outsiders, but through the agency that he instituted, 0.89
00:15:55 which is Caesar, which is the civil magistrate. They are God's deacon, God's servant, God's
00:16:02 avengers. And so we do judge. And the church doesn't carry it out. The church doesn't round
00:16:08 up criminals that aren't members in the church and put them to death. The church doesn't do that,
00:16:13 But the state should, depending on the crime and what the Bible says is the just punishment
00:16:18 for it, the state puts them to death and some of those members of the civil magistrate will 1.00
00:16:22 be Christians and all of them, even if they're not Christians, they should be, they should
00:16:28 be informed and counseled on what is just and what is right and what is Christian by
00:16:33 the church.
00:16:34 One of my roles as a local pastor is that I preach, first and foremost, I preach to
00:16:39 the sheep in my church on the Lord's day.
00:16:41 I nourish them with the bread of life who is Christ. But I also, as a local pastor, I cry out
00:16:48 to those in the civil magistrate who are outside of my church. I don't render or execute the
00:16:53 judgment, but I tell them what God's judgment is and what they as God's servants should be doing. 0.96
00:16:59 I say, as John the Baptist said to Herod, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife. 0.89
00:17:05 Why? Because Herod was a member in John the Baptist church. Nope. No, Herod wasn't a Christian. 0.62
00:17:12 Herod wasn't, he wasn't a part of the church. Did that stop John the Baptist? No. John the Baptist
00:17:19 said, you're a human being created in the image of God. You live in God's world. God has a
00:17:23 transcendent law. It's not just a law for church people. It's a law for all people. Stop sinning.
00:17:29 And John the Baptist speaks to him with authority. He doesn't carry out or execute a judgment,
00:17:34 but he makes a judgment. And there is a difference. And Christians are called to do
00:17:38 precisely that. Oh, hi. I didn't see you there. Thanks for sticking around. I've got an important 0.94
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00:18:41 God bless.