The NXR Podcast - QUESTIONS - Should Christians Judge Outsiders？

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00:00:21.240 Here we go. This is from Kevin Wendt.

00:00:24.120 How would you answer someone that brings up 1 Corinthians 5, verse 12 and 13

00:00:29.120 in opposition to the church and Christians getting involved in the political sphere,

00:00:33.480 even the abortion mill ministries, et cetera. I believe that theonomy is good. And in the 0.99

00:00:39.040 post-millennial hope, I am just wondering the best way to answer this. Thank you. All right,

00:00:45.420 let me find it. First Corinthians chapter five. I know exactly what you're talking about,

00:00:49.480 but I want to be able to read the text. First Corinthians chapter five, verse 12 and 13

00:00:56.960 says this, for what do I have to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom

00:01:05.520 you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. Oh my goodness, 0.94

00:01:12.080 if I had a dollar every single time, a well-meaning but very foolish Christian quoted that 0.96

00:01:17.540 in order to say that we shouldn't care about politics, I would be a very, very rich man. 0.99

00:01:23.880 Let me read it one more time. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those

00:01:29.220 inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from 0.94

00:01:36.060 among you. All right. First, for what have I? Who's I? The apostle Paul. What is the apostle 0.98

00:01:42.820 Paul? He's an apostle. An apostle of the world? An apostle of the civil magistrate? An apostle

00:01:50.180 of medicine. No, an apostle in the church. He has a position of ecclesiastical authority

00:01:58.240 commissioned by Christ in his church. So Paul is saying, I, as a churchman, as a clergy member of

00:02:07.660 sorts, the highest to be sure, but as a clergyman, what business do I have with judging people

00:02:14.220 outside of the church? I am a leader in the church. That's my domain. Then he goes further.

00:02:19.780 then he says, is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Who's the you? So the I

00:02:25.040 is the Apostle Paul. What is the Apostle Paul? A clergyman in the church. Who's the you? The you

00:02:30.800 is the entire city of Corinth. No, it's the church at Corinth. It's the saints. It's members

00:02:38.040 in the church. So he's saying, is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? This is

00:02:44.400 who you're supposed to judge. Then verse 13, he says, God judges those outside. Purge the evil 0.98

00:02:51.000 person from among you. And what he's saying in that case is he's talking about the man who

00:02:55.340 had sexual relations with his stepmother, a kind of sexual perversion not even heard of 0.93

00:03:00.840 among the Gentiles. And he's saying he needs to be excommunicated, handed over to Satan. He needs 0.99

00:03:06.440 to be removed from the roster of the church. Treat him as a tax collector or a Gentile, 1.00

00:03:11.820 no longer regarding him as a brother for the saving of his soul, the destruction of his flesh, 0.93

00:03:16.740 but the saving of his soul, which is in fact what happened because when Paul writes back to the

00:03:21.540 Corinthian church in second Corinthians chapter two, he tells him to welcome that same man. I

00:03:26.280 believe it's the same man back in. All right. So Paul is basically what he's saying is, look,

00:03:30.060 we're not judging outsiders here, but we are judging those in the church. And we got a guy

00:03:33.640 in the church right now who needs to be purged. That's what Paul's saying. So I, as an authority

00:03:39.620 in the church, I deal with the church. And you as members of the church make judgments also. You have

00:03:47.360 a role in this judgment, not just me top down, but the church itself needs to corporately and

00:03:52.340 in a unified sense needs to purge this evil person from among the church. Now, all that being said,

00:03:59.340 verse 13, he says, God judges those outside the church. Now, here's the deal. Let's look at that

00:04:05.480 real quick. You guys are going to love this, right? The favorite text of everybody to quote

00:04:13.400 over the last two and a half years, Romans 13. What? Romans 13. Here we go.

00:04:26.520 Romans 13. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority

00:04:31.740 except from God. God sovereignly appoints human civil magistrates, and those that exist have been

00:04:38.940 instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed,

00:04:43.940 and those who resist will incur judgment. Go back, 1 Corinthians 5, verse 13. God judges those

00:04:50.560 outside, but how? By what means? Through what agency? There is a human agency that God uses

00:05:01.060 to judge those outside of the church.

00:05:04.220 What is it?

00:05:05.340 It's a civil magistrate.

00:05:06.800 Those who resist the authorities

00:05:08.240 resist what God has appointed

00:05:09.440 and those who resist will incur judgment.

00:05:13.040 For rulers are not a terror to those who do good,

00:05:15.640 but to bad.

00:05:17.060 Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?

00:05:19.140 Then do what is good

00:05:20.260 and you will receive his approval.

00:05:21.600 For he is God's servant for your good.

00:05:24.340 But if you do wrong, be afraid,

00:05:26.660 for he does not bear the sword in vain.

00:05:29.000 He is the servant of God

00:05:30.500 an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. So 1 Corinthians 5, verse 13,

00:05:38.520 God judges those outside. How? By the avenger that God instituted, by the servant of God,

00:05:47.480 by God's deacon, the civil magistrate. He's the one who carries out God's wrath on the outsider. 0.52

00:05:53.880 right? So you have not two kingdoms. Get that garbage out of here. You have three spheres,

00:06:01.540 the home, the church, and the state. The home, the church, and the state. There are leaders,

00:06:07.820 fathers, I would say. This is the father's world. He works through fathers. This is patriarchy.

00:06:13.660 There are fathers in each of these three spheres that are in authority, that rule, and are called

00:06:18.020 to rule righteously according to the scripture. There are familial fathers in the home. The father

00:06:22.880 is the head of his children. He's certainly the head of his wife. The scripture teaches this. 0.98

00:06:26.260 There are ecclesiastical fathers in the church. There's a reason why elders, leaders in the church

00:06:31.340 are to be men. And there are fathers in the civil magistrate. Now I understand that we have a bunch

00:06:36.840 of women in positions of high up civil authority, but that's God's judgment. That's not something 1.00

00:06:41.780 to boast about. It should be men, right? Because the civil magistrate bears the sword and the sword

00:06:46.960 belongs to men, not women, despite what, what female elf wields the sword, you know, in the 0.95

00:06:53.960 rings of power in God's world, according to God's word, men are the ones who wield the sword and 1.00

00:07:00.280 the sword belongs to the civil magistrate. It should be men. They're the ones who are called 0.74

00:07:03.240 to rule. So all that being said, um, you have three different spheres and certainly in terms

00:07:08.520 of the people, there are overlap, right? Um, people who belong to the church also belong to

00:07:13.220 families, and they also belong to a sovereign nation. They are citizens in a nation. So there

00:07:18.160 are multiple different identities and belongings that each of these people have. But what Paul is

00:07:23.320 saying when he says, hey, it's not my business to judge outsiders, great, because he's an apostle.

00:07:28.360 And you, and in what sense is he speaking to the Corinthians in that instance? He's talking about

00:07:33.800 you insofar as it regards your status as church members are not to judge those outside, but to

00:07:40.540 judge those inside. And right now you need to judge this particular person by rendering a

00:07:46.020 righteous judgment, excommunicating him, handing him over to Satan in line with the teachings of

00:07:50.620 Christ in Matthew chapter 18, church discipline. Okay. That's what he's saying. But he's not saying

00:07:55.180 that no one judges outsiders. Yes, he says God judges outsiders, but we know that this is also

00:08:00.260 Paul, Romans chapter 13. How does God judge outsiders? Through people, through people,

00:08:05.820 but it's another sphere. So he uses the leaders in that sphere, but those leaders are supposed

00:08:10.920 to be God's servants, right? Caesar is not God. Caesar submits to God. Caesar is a servant of God.

00:08:19.080 Yes. Separation of church and state as two sovereign spheres. Yes. And amen. Separation

00:08:24.120 of Christ and state. No, we do not want an ecclesiocracy, a church run state or a state 0.82

00:08:31.240 run church, which is what we've had for several decades. Now we don't have a church run state,

00:08:35.660 but we do have a state run church. We don't want either. We want a separation of church and state,

00:08:40.980 but we don't want a separation of Christ and state. That means we reject ecclesiocracies, 0.73

00:08:45.900 but we would adhere to a theocracy. We do adhere to that. We believe that Christ is king. Here's

00:08:53.040 the deal. Christ is king of kings. Ever heard that line before? Christ is king of kings. Okay.

00:08:58.400 which kings is he king of? Earthly kings. Christ is king over the kings of this earth,

00:09:06.420 over the civil magistrate, over Caesar. These guys are, now certainly we have plenty of tyrants.

00:09:12.500 We have plenty of people in the realm of the civil magistrate that have rejected the lordship,

00:09:17.400 the kingship of Christ. But that's not how it has to be. That's not how it's supposed to be.

00:09:21.660 And that's not how it ultimately will be as the great commission advances and the gospel goes

00:09:27.720 forth and we make disciples of all nations. Here's the deal. Just think about this logically

00:09:33.420 for a second. This is what you ultimately have to theologically affirm in order to get rid of

00:09:38.740 theonomy. What you would have to say is that a Christian cannot, cannot in a moral righteous 1.00

00:09:45.220 sense serve in any position in the state. Christians cannot be service members in the Navy 1.00

00:09:52.680 or the air force or the army or the Marines, uh, Christians cannot be police officers. 1.00

00:09:59.200 They cannot run for local office. They can't be council members. They can't be governors. They 1.00

00:10:03.740 can't be, um, they can't be, uh, judges. They, they can't be president. They can't, none of that.

00:10:08.920 That is a thoroughly unbiblical and sin. It's a sin for Christians to be in the civil magistrate. 1.00

00:10:15.060 That's a position you would have to hold because the only alternative position is that, 0.99

00:10:19.760 is that God calls people. We see this in 1 Corinthians 7. Now, I understand it's primarily

00:10:24.520 talking about marriage as the case study, but the principle, I believe, applies to other realms and

00:10:30.380 other examples as well. God calls people, God saves people, and they should remain in the station 0.75

00:10:36.120 of life in which they were in when God called them. Now, not in every instance, right? So like

00:10:42.180 if you're a criminal and you get saved, well, you exit that career. You go ahead and retire

00:10:49.260 from your career being a criminal. But what if you're a Philippian jailer? What if you're a 0.94

00:10:55.980 centurion? What if you're Felix, a governor? You know what I mean? Like what happens when you're

00:11:04.080 in the civil magistrate? And here's the deal, Jesus addressed these things. There were Roman

00:11:08.840 soldiers who asked Jesus, what does it look like for us now as Christians to live a Christian life,

00:11:15.100 to be your disciples. And Jesus says, well, you must exit that realm. You must quit your job.

00:11:22.380 Nope. Jesus does not say that. Jesus says, you must do your job Christianly. Jesus does not say

00:11:30.860 it is Christian to get out of that job in the civil magistrate. No, he says a Christian civil

00:11:36.720 magistrate just needs to do his civil magistrate job in a Christian way, in an ethical way,

00:11:43.740 not exploiting, not oppressing, but in an ethical way, according to whose standards? Caesar's. No,

00:11:49.280 no, Caesar doesn't get to decide what belongs to Caesar. Yes, we are called to render unto Caesar

00:11:55.000 what belongs to Caesar. The question is who decides what belongs to Caesar? Well, it's the

00:12:00.040 king above all kings, Jesus, Jesus. So all this being said, what business do we have judging

00:12:07.760 outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Great. Yes. That's speaking

00:12:13.500 about our role as church members. Paul speaking as a church clergyman in his role as an apostle

00:12:20.100 in the church to other people, Christians in Corinth, regarding their position, their status,

00:12:27.660 their responsibilities in their vocation as church members. Paul is not saying that no Christian,

00:12:33.180 that none of those church members in Corinth could hold in terms of their vocation, a job

00:12:37.940 in the civil magistrate, and that if they did hold said job, that there's no transcendent

00:12:45.520 standard from the word of God that they should abide by.

00:12:49.060 Paul's not saying that.

00:12:50.560 That is eisegesis of the highest order.

00:12:53.100 So when Paul says, we don't have business judging people outside of the church, that's

00:12:56.520 right.

00:12:56.960 Christians, when we're wearing our churchman hat, as it pertains to the realm, the sovereign

00:13:03.820 sphere of the church, the ecclesiastical realm, as we are wearing our church hat, we don't judge

00:13:09.820 outsiders. But guess what? As human beings, we hold, we wear more than one hat, right? You're

00:13:17.040 a member of a local church. Great. Praise God. You're also a dad in the realm of the family and

00:13:23.280 a husband or a mother and a wife, a brother, a sister. And you also have a job. You're a

00:13:30.160 businessman, you're a farmer, or you're a police officer, or a council member, or a governor,

00:13:36.800 or a mayor. And in all those things, unless we're going to make an argument, and this is what the

00:13:42.500 radical two kingdom guys basically have to do, they won't, but this is the logical implication

00:13:46.860 of their view. They basically have to say it is a sin for Christians to serve in the civil

00:13:51.540 magistrate. But it's not. Clearly from the Bible, it's not. So then the question is, for those

00:13:57.760 Christians who do serve in the realm of the state, they're members in the church, they're fathers in

00:14:03.540 the home, husbands in the home, but then they're also a police officer or a governor or a council

00:14:09.260 member in the state. So as it pertains to the home, what standard do they use? The Bible. They

00:14:15.560 love their wives according to God's law. They love their children according to God's law. In the

00:14:21.060 church, how do they function? According to God's law, according to the scripture. And in their

00:14:26.780 position, their vocation in the civil magistrate, how do they function? Well, as a neutral entity,

00:14:33.980 according to the principles of classic liberalism. As a libertarian? No. As a Christian.

00:14:41.120 In this particular case, a Christian nationalist, a Christian civil magistrate, a Caesar submitted to

00:14:48.420 Christ as king over the king, right? The law is king. Whose law? God's law. God's law is king. 0.52

00:14:57.920 And so then what do those civil magistrates do? Those Christian civil magistrates do? Well, 0.96

00:15:02.240 according to Romans 13, what they do is they judge outsiders. That's the point. They judge 1.00

00:15:08.460 outsiders. So we do judge outsiders. We just don't do it in the sovereign sphere of the church.

00:15:14.320 We need to have clear, that's all we're doing. We just need to have clear categories. So that

00:15:18.400 doesn't mean Christians don't ever judge those outside of the church. No, Christians judge as 0.95

00:15:23.560 they're wearing their church hat, as members of a local church, they judge those in the church. 0.56

00:15:27.380 But then those very same Christians, especially with the post-millennial hope, as the leaven 0.95

00:15:32.140 works through the whole batch of dough, as the nations are Christianized, as the mustard seed 0.99

00:15:36.040 grows into a tree, as the stone cut by no human hands grows into a mountain that fills the earth, 0.94

00:15:41.700 as more and more Christians come, some of those Christians are going to be civil magistrates. 0.96

00:15:45.460 And what do they do? They act like Christian civil magistrates, which means they judge 0.97

00:15:49.740 outsiders. And that is God judging outsiders, but through the agency that he instituted, 0.89

00:15:55.300 which is Caesar, which is the civil magistrate. They are God's deacon, God's servant, God's

00:16:02.440 avengers. And so we do judge. And the church doesn't carry it out. The church doesn't round

00:16:08.680 up criminals that aren't members in the church and put them to death. The church doesn't do that,

00:16:13.700 But the state should, depending on the crime and what the Bible says is the just punishment

00:16:18.560 for it, the state puts them to death and some of those members of the civil magistrate will 1.00

00:16:22.760 be Christians and all of them, even if they're not Christians, they should be, they should

00:16:28.080 be informed and counseled on what is just and what is right and what is Christian by

00:16:33.300 the church.

00:16:34.240 One of my roles as a local pastor is that I preach, first and foremost, I preach to

00:16:39.460 the sheep in my church on the Lord's day.

00:16:41.440 I nourish them with the bread of life who is Christ. But I also, as a local pastor, I cry out

00:16:48.560 to those in the civil magistrate who are outside of my church. I don't render or execute the

00:16:53.680 judgment, but I tell them what God's judgment is and what they as God's servants should be doing. 0.96

00:16:59.880 I say, as John the Baptist said to Herod, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife. 0.89

00:17:05.860 Why? Because Herod was a member in John the Baptist church. Nope. No, Herod wasn't a Christian. 0.62

00:17:12.960 Herod wasn't, he wasn't a part of the church. Did that stop John the Baptist? No. John the Baptist

00:17:19.520 said, you're a human being created in the image of God. You live in God's world. God has a

00:17:23.640 transcendent law. It's not just a law for church people. It's a law for all people. Stop sinning.

00:17:29.720 And John the Baptist speaks to him with authority. He doesn't carry out or execute a judgment,

00:17:34.200 but he makes a judgment. And there is a difference. And Christians are called to do

00:17:38.980 precisely that. Oh, hi. I didn't see you there. Thanks for sticking around. I've got an important 0.94

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00:18:41.640 God bless.

The NXR Podcast - November 05, 2022

QUESTIONS - Should Christians Judge Outsiders？

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