In this episode, we tackle the controversial topic of whether or not women should be required to wear clothes in church. We discuss the difference between modesty and dress standards, and why it matters to God and His creation.
00:00:27.100I could go for about like seven cookies right now.
00:00:29.90011 is a lot, but I think I could, I could probably eat about seven cookies right now. It's lunchtime.
00:00:35.060All right. My church says it's legalistic to put standards on how to dress at church. At the same
00:00:40.180time, their standard is a one piece, uh, suit at the beach, a one piece bathing suit. Uh, what's
00:00:47.420your thoughts and your thoughts on modesty in general? Good question. So basically it seems
00:00:52.860like you're frustrated or maybe you're not frustrated, but you're just, you're just wanting
00:00:56.140clarity on, uh, the idea that pull the question up one more time. Um, but on the idea that it
00:01:02.360seems like your church doesn't have standards in one context, namely, uh, the gathering of the
00:01:07.240saints on the Lord's day. Uh, but then they do have standards, dress standards, um, in another
00:01:13.160context, um, at the beach, right? So my church says it's legalistic. So your church is saying
00:01:18.720no standards on how to dress at church. So in this context, no standards. And this other context,
00:01:25.660there are standards. So that's, yeah, I, I get your frustration. Uh, to be fair, I would be
00:01:32.180gentle towards your pastor with that. Uh, because he's, he's not being consistent. And I think if
00:01:37.080you, if you did it humbly, I don't know, I don't know, but if you did it humbly, I think you could
00:01:41.400get him to, to back off of that and admit that he's not being consistent. Uh, because basically
00:01:46.780he's saying, well, we don't have any standards in this context, but we do have standards in this
00:01:50.020other, uh, context. And that's just a lie. If someone showed up naked to church, he would say
00:01:54.820something, right? So we know he does have standards for Sunday. So he's saying, we don't
00:01:59.520have standards for Sunday. Yes, you do. You can't show up naked to church. I'm pulling up a text.
00:02:06.840First Corinthians, we're going to look at first Corinthians 11. So this deals with head coverings,
00:02:10.300but I think also what we can, that's the primary issue. It deals with glory, the concept of glory,
00:02:16.240the glory of man, the glory of Christ, the glory of women. It deals with submission. It deals with0.98
00:02:20.820angels and the nature of Lord's day worship and the gathering of the saints, all these things.
00:02:26.400But it does also implicitly, I think, deal with just the idea of physical distinction between men
00:02:33.480and women, especially, I think always, but especially on the Lord's day, that men and
00:02:39.740women should look different. I don't have time to read it, but I would encourage you. So this0.99
00:02:45.720first Corinthians chapter 11, verse two through 16. Uh, but you could also look at Deuteronomy
00:02:50.900where it says, um, that, um, it is an abomination, uh, for, um, a woman to put on men's garments,0.99
00:02:59.540right? So, so the Bible talks about, um, uh, men should dress like men and women should dress like0.92
00:03:05.900women. And you might say, well, but isn't that cultural, uh, to an extent? Yes. Um, I think that,
00:03:11.020yeah, to an extent, there are cultural aspects of femininity and masculinity, but I think there
00:03:18.280are also transcendent standards where it just, there are certain garments, certain ways of
00:03:25.800dressing that regardless of what the culture says, simply would not be masculine because our
00:03:32.100literal objective frame of men and the biological physical frame of women is different. And there
00:03:38.700are some things that are conducive to that and therefore are always universally going to be
00:03:44.220conducive to feminine dress and masculine dress. So your church, your pastor, he's just not being
00:03:49.820honest with that or to give him the benefit of the doubt, he's just, he's overlooking it. Maybe
00:03:54.220he's not being deceitful, but he's just being, I don't know, not particularly thoughtful. Of course
00:04:00.640he has standards for church. He can't come naked to church. And I would go beyond that and say,
00:04:04.160women should look like women at church and men should look like men at church, right? So if0.90
00:04:10.900somebody comes naked to my church, I'm going to kick them out. And now if they're willing to put0.97
00:04:15.400on clothes, then they could come back. But yeah, they can't stay in church and worship with us
00:04:21.360naked. However, beyond that, it's not just they can't come naked. It's further than that. I'm
00:04:26.820making an argument from the greater to the lesser, okay? So start with that. You can't come naked to
00:04:30.120church. But also if a man comes to our church wearing a dress, we're going to correct that0.72
00:04:34.760also. Men can't wear dresses to church because men can't dress like women because it's an0.99
00:04:41.060abomination. And likewise, a woman doesn't need to come dress like a man. A woman doesn't need1.00
00:04:46.560to come in some power suit, you know, three piece suit. No, she needs to, she needs to look like a1.00
00:04:50.860woman. She doesn't need to come, you know, with, with her short hair, um, and, and trying to look1.00
00:04:56.860boyish, you know, and shoulder pads to try to, try to look like more of a masculine,0.97
00:05:01.860strong frame wearing a three piece suit. No, no, you need to come as a woman. You are a woman1.00
00:05:07.860come as a woman. Okay. So, uh, men need to dress like men. Women need to dress like women at the1.00
00:05:13.300beach. Same thing. Absolutely. Are, are there, are there certain ways of dressing, um, that are1.00
00:05:19.540objectively sinful, immodest? Of course there are. Now there can be a debate about where is the line
00:05:26.620and we need to be careful with that, not overly legalistic. I don't think we need to be busting
00:05:30.720out a yardstick at the door of our churches and measuring how many exact centimeters it is from
00:05:36.700your shorts from the end of your fingertips. So certainly you can abuse that. You can be too
00:05:42.660particular, but to go the complete opposite direction, pretend as though the Bible doesn't0.98
00:05:47.940speak to what we wear is ridiculous. The Bible speaks to all of life. That's where we'll hang0.71
00:05:53.440our hat, you know, in answering this question, that's where we'll land the plane. The Bible
00:05:57.740speaks to everything. The Bible is not just inherent, it's sufficient, right? The Bible is
00:06:01.820not just infallible and authoritative, it's sufficient. And not just for the way of salvation,
00:06:07.140not just the Bible explains sufficiently how to be saved. No, the Bible says for life and godliness
00:06:12.380to so that the man of God might be fully equipped for every good work. So what is the Bible
00:06:19.560sufficient for? Not just the way of salvation, but all of life. The Bible itself says it's
00:06:25.040sufficient for all of life. Is dressing, are clothes a part of life? Yeah. What about cooking?
00:06:32.460What about diet? What about food? Is food religious? Yeah, food is religious. Go to India,
00:06:39.580visit India and ask them if food is religious. I mean, think about Israel. Ask them, is food0.96
00:06:46.260religious? Do you eat pork, shellfish, right? Of course, food is religious. Everybody knows food
00:06:53.680is religious. And even under the new covenant, as New Testament Christians, we believe that food
00:06:57.660is religious. How we eat, right? So Jesus says nothing is unclean, right? So Jesus puts, you
00:07:03.680know, he puts shellfish back on the menu, right? When he says, it's not what goes into a man's
00:07:07.900mouth, but what comes out of his mouth that defiles him. And parenthetical statement right1.00
00:07:12.060there in the text, it says, and thus he declared all foods clean. However, not what you eat, but
00:07:16.780how you eat. There's a Christian way to eat, right? Not necessarily a Christian menu, but even then we
00:07:24.240can get, there are certain things that are good for your body and things that aren't, and we should
00:07:27.160be good stewards of our body because of first Corinthians chapter six, your body is a temple
00:07:30.600of the Holy Spirit, right? So there's all these different things. So even the, what we eat,
00:07:34.620even under the new covenant, there's something to be said for that, but certainly how we eat,
00:07:38.960whether you eat or drink, do it all for the glory of God. So there is a way of eating that glorifies
00:07:44.320God. There's a way of eating that's worship. And so, so it is with clothing, right? There's a way
00:07:48.880of wearing clothes that is right, what you wear and how you wear it and how you present yourself.
00:07:54.840All the, the Bible speaks to these things. So, um, uh, yeah, it is not, I'll say it like this.
00:08:02.000It is not inherently, inherently just, just objectively right out, right out of the gate,
00:08:07.060legalistic to say that the Bible says some things about how we dress. And here are some of the
00:08:14.600things that I think the Bible says. And I think that right now, the way you're dressed is
00:08:18.280inappropriate. That is not an inherently simple statement. I'd have to hear what specifically did
00:08:23.240they say? Because again, making an argument from the greater to the lesser, if a pastor is saying,
00:08:30.240hey, you can't come naked to church, then I 100% agree with that pastor. And if he's saying,
00:08:36.780Hey, uh, you can't be a woman dressed like a man at church. I also would 100% agree with that1.00
00:08:42.000pastor. Um, and to go to the beach cause your pastor's admitting, Oh, well, there is, there
00:08:46.920are standards at the beach. Um, and the standard that you mentioned in your question is, you know,
00:08:51.120that you should have a one piece bathing suit. I also agree with the pastor. And that's something
00:08:55.840that me and my wife talked about early on in our marriage or before we were even married. I think
00:08:59.340when we were engaged, you know, I let her know, Hey, I don't want you to wear two piece bathing
00:09:04.000suits. Um, I, I don't think that, and it's not about what I want. It is a little bit if I become
00:09:09.160your husband, but we were at the time I wasn't, I was, we were engaged, but I don't think that
00:09:12.880God wants you to wear two piece bathing suits. And then once we were married and she started0.98
00:09:16.080doing it then, but once we were married, um, then she definitely, uh, submitted to my authority.0.98
00:09:21.240What? Oh my gosh. That's, that's patriarchy. You're saying as a husband, you tell your wife1.00
00:09:27.260what to wear? Yes. I'm her authority. Yeah. Uh-huh. The government tells your wife what to wear.0.81
00:09:36.740The government tells her she needs to put a mask around her face. The government says she needs to0.99
00:09:41.860inject foreign chemicals that we haven't even long-term tested into her body.0.79
00:09:46.720Not just the government, but let's talk about her employer, right? You send your wife to work,0.97
00:09:51.160you squishy, weak Christian. You send her to work. Is there a dress code at her work?1.00
00:09:55.780Can she wear whatever she wants to wear? Yeah. So the man at her job gets to tell her what to wear.1.00
00:10:00.760And the only time weak evangelical Christians object is not when a corporate man tells women
00:10:07.560what to wear, not when the civil magistrate man tells women what to wear, but when a husband who
00:10:13.440actually loves that woman tells her what to wear, then we object. So stupid. So hypocritical.1.00
00:10:21.120yeah I don't rule my house with with an iron fist I'm not totalitarian but I do have authority0.97
00:10:27.880headship actually does mean something it actually does mean something and my wife doesn't feel like
00:10:34.360I'm ruling the house as a tyrant you know why because my wife I'm submitted to the word of God
00:10:39.620and so is she and 99.9% of the time when I give her instruction she sees it as God's truth and
00:10:48.880she joyfully submits to it. That's why every dude that I talk to who's patriarchal in his views,
00:10:56.920every single one of them, the wife is also patriarchal and loves patriarchy and loves
00:11:02.240her husband and is far more happy and far more joyful actually building up her home instead of1.00
00:11:08.220tearing it down with her feminism and building up some corporate man's home. And she's raising0.66
00:11:12.560children who fear the Lord and their dinner table is filled with laughter and joy.1.00
00:11:16.060feminism is such a lie, such a lie. So yes, it's okay to have dress codes in different contexts.1.00
00:11:24.060And I think it's okay. Husbands should ultimately do this with their wives and their daughters, but
00:11:28.080if they're not, um, then yes, it's okay for the male elders of a church to say, yeah, there,
00:11:33.000there are certain things that you can't wear at church. Um, and then for them, even from the
00:11:37.180public to preach and there's certain things, not just at church, but in all of life, whether it
00:11:40.260be at the beach or the mall, um, there are certain things that you shouldn't wear because the Bible
00:11:44.780says so. And let's not get overly particular about where we draw the line. Let's be careful
00:11:49.640with that. But in general, to say that there are principles, the Bible does speak to how we dress.
00:11:53.980Of course it does. And all the way back to the question, the final thing I'll say is,
00:11:57.960I agree with your pastor and what he's saying about the beach. And I think he just needs to
00:12:03.040be consistent and admit that he also has standards for church. And if he says he doesn't, he's just,
00:12:08.440he's either not being entirely honest or he's just not being completely thoughtful.
00:12:12.580Thanks so much for listening, but real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show.
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