The NXR Podcast - August 20, 2022


QUESTIONS - What Are Some Views Of Salvation Besides Calvinism and Arminianism？

Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Leighton Flowers Jacobus Arminius Paul Jamie White Gomorrah William Lane Craig Isaiah Jamie J. Jamie J. Is Calvinism Jesus Christ Pelagianism Joel
DAILY TRUTH - Imitating All Of Christ SUNDAY SERMON - Who Is This King Of Glory？ ｜ Psalm 24

Episode Stats


Length

16 minutes

Words per minute

181.24

Word count

2,909

Sentence count

200

Harmful content

Hate speech

7

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism, and how they differ from each other. We also talk about the debate between James White and Leighton Flowers, and why they disagree.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request.
00:00:03 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,
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00:00:21 Super chat from Jamie J. Jamie J.
00:00:24 Is Calvinism and Arminianism the only two views
00:00:27 and will you explain the differences of each?
00:00:30 Okay, no.
00:00:31 All right, so in terms of views, views of what?
00:00:33 All right, so the headline for this,
00:00:35 you got theology, all right?
00:00:36 And then subcategories, soteriology.
00:00:39 Soteriology is a doctrine of salvation.
00:00:41 How does God say, what is salvation?
00:00:43 How does God apply salvation?
00:00:45 How does God not just apply salvation
00:00:47 to the individual person that he's saving,
00:00:48 but how did God accomplish salvation
00:00:51 through the work of his son, Jesus,
00:00:53 the person work of Christ?
00:00:55 So soteriology covers all of that.
00:00:57 What is salvation?
00:00:59 How does God accomplish salvation?
00:01:01 How does God apply salvation?
00:01:02 The doctrine of salvation is soteriology.
00:01:05 Within soteriology, there are multiple views.
00:01:07 Arminianism is one.
00:01:09 Calvinism is one.
00:01:10 There is also the provisionism view.
00:01:15 Leighton Flowers talks about that all the time.
00:01:18 Leighton Flowers is very grateful for guys like me
00:01:22 and guys like James White.
00:01:23 If it wasn't, he'd have nothing to talk about if it wasn't for Calvinist.
00:01:26 So he's a provisionist.
00:01:28 I don't have time to go into that.
00:01:29 You can check out my debate with Leighton.
00:01:31 It was actually my first time ever formally debating someone.
00:01:34 Leighton, I would argue that in that debate, I would say that Leighton did better than
00:01:38 me, just for the record.
00:01:39 I think he did better than me.
00:01:41 So I'm not just, oh, I did great, and Leighton's twisting my words, or Leighton this.
00:01:45 I don't think that.
00:01:46 I like Leighton.
00:01:47 I think he's a good guy.
00:01:48 I think he's dead wrong on these things.
00:01:50 And I do think that I would like to see him address some other things besides just so
00:01:54 to teoriology, but you're allowed to just have a YouTube channel that talks about one
00:01:59 thing.
00:01:59 Leighton's allowed to do that.
00:02:00 So anyways, all that being said, he would be a provisionist.
00:02:04 If you want to know about provision, you can check out our debate.
00:02:08 And if you want to, the Colossians 2 thing is where in our cross-examination where I
00:02:12 feel like he stumped me.
00:02:14 And I have an answer for that now.
00:02:16 I didn't at the time.
00:02:17 I was caught off guard and just wasn't prepared for that portion of debate, cross-examination.
00:02:24 I didn't have a lot of experience in that, hadn't done it before.
00:02:26 So I think he bested me on that point, Colossians chapter 2.
00:02:30 Other than that, though, I think you'll hear me in my opening statement and closing statement,
00:02:34 and then Leighton also in his opening and closing statement.
00:02:37 You'll hear, I think, generally a good definition of Calvinism and provisionism.
00:02:42 And provisionism, my whole point is to say that differs from Arminianism.
00:02:46 So now we have three views. There's also Molinism, which deals with salvation, but also really deals
00:02:51 with middle knowledge and what does it mean for God to be sovereign and what's the nature of God's
00:02:57 sovereignty and these kinds of things. But you could talk about that. James White has a good
00:03:01 debate on Molinism with William Lane Craig. And I think James White mops the floor with William
00:03:08 Lane Craig, but you can check that out. But Arminianism and Calvinism seem to be the primary
00:03:14 views of soteriology. Just for the record, in a nutshell, you can check out the debate with
00:03:20 Leighton. But in a nutshell, the difference between provisionism and Arminianism is Arminianism has
00:03:27 this clause that Jacobus Arminius, he kind of entered into the fray because he had to resolve
00:03:34 some tension that he was creating by denying certain Calvinistic doctrines. And so what he
00:03:40 did to resolve it is he created this, this extra category of, of what he called provenient grace.
00:03:46 Okay. And so provenient grace is the way that, that, uh, Jacobus Arminius and his followers,
00:03:52 um, more particularly, we're able to affirm what the Bible teaches about total depravity,
00:03:57 uh, that total depravity is total inability. And this is where provisionism would disagree.
00:04:02 Layton would disagree with that. Um, but the Arminian would say, no, uh, Joel and the Calvinists,
00:04:07 they're right about total depravity. Total depravity, it means you cannot come to Christ.
00:04:12 You're totally unable to come to Christ. However, the Arminian would say, but however,
00:04:19 what you're not considering is this window of grace, this momentary, temporary, partial,
00:04:25 prevenient grace. And what that prevenient grace does is that there are times under the unction
00:04:30 of the Holy Spirit where he basically takes someone who is totally depraved and total
00:04:35 depravity is total inability. This person can't come to Christ, but in prevenient grace for a
00:04:40 moment, the Holy Spirit temporarily, he temporarily suspends or lifts. It's temporary and it's
00:04:47 partial. Partially and temporarily suspends or lifts the person's total depravity, total inability,
00:04:54 and brings them, as it were, to kind of a state of spiritual neutrality to where the person then
00:05:00 is able to hear the preaching of the gospel from a neutral standpoint and able to make an objective
00:05:05 and unbiased choice to either put faith in Christ, and then the faith would result in
00:05:12 regeneration, being born again. Being born again would be the reward, if you will, for faith,
00:05:17 or the person can choose to double down in their sin and harden their heart, reject the gospel,
00:05:21 and then the prevenient grace, window of grace would pass, and they would harden back into their
00:05:28 sin. So that's Arminianism. And so what I'm saying is Arminianism agrees with Calvinism
00:05:33 in terms of total depravity, meaning total inability. People can't come to God. But the
00:05:38 Arminian puts in this prevenient grace clause, which is not biblical, but they do. They put that
00:05:45 in. And that's how they get around the total depravity piece. And then, of course, the Arminian
00:05:50 has to, there's other, you know, it creates all these other holes in their theology. Because my
00:05:54 question to Arminian would be, does God give prevenient grace to everyone, right? Because
00:05:59 you're also denying unconditional election. And you say that the opportunity is there for everyone.
00:06:06 So God must be, at some point in someone's life, must be giving this prevenient grace to everyone.
00:06:10 My next question is, not just does he give, God give prevenient grace to everyone so they have
00:06:14 an opportunity to come to faith, but does God give the same measure, the same degree of prevenient
00:06:18 grace? Because I could say, as a Calvinist, I'm looking at the apostle Paul on the road to
00:06:23 Damascus, his conversion. And I would say, well, gee, I know a lot of people, a lot of people,
00:06:29 who if they were blinded from a light from heaven and knocked off of a horse and heard an audible
00:06:34 voice from the clouds saying, so-and-so, so-and-so, why do you persecute me? And they responded
00:06:41 saying, who are you? And then the voice again thundered and said, I am Jesus whom you are
00:06:47 persecuting. I feel like I know a lot of people who are not Christians, but if they had that
00:06:52 provenient grace, that measure, that degree, they would come to Christ. And Jesus even says this,
00:06:59 Jesus says, he pronounces woes, judgment on certain cities in Israel, and he compares them
00:07:05 to Sodom and Gomorrah. And he says, it'll be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah on judgment, 0.99
00:07:10 with judgment, than it will be for these Israelite cities, because he says this, 0.67
00:07:14 for if the signs, if the measure of grace, the measure of revelation, if the signs and wonders,
00:07:21 the miracles that I performed in you, you Jewish cities, had been performed in them,
00:07:26 Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented long ago. So what is Jesus saying? He's saying 0.93
00:07:32 if they had been given more grace, they would have been saved. They would have repented.
00:07:39 So why did they not repent? Well, because of their sin on the one hand, but on the other hand,
00:07:44 because God knew that if he gave them more grace, they would repent and God chose not to.
00:07:49 i mean isaiah prophesies this and jesus quotes isaiah remember when the disciples asked isaiah
00:07:54 they say uh or they asked jesus why do you speak in parables and we always pastors always say well
00:07:59 jesus used stories because it's a good analogy and illustration for the points that's not what
00:08:04 jesus says he doesn't say i speak in parables to uh to give a visual you know i do it the same for
00:08:10 the same reason that pastors show movie clips in their sermons and and powerpoint that's not what
00:08:14 Jesus says. He doesn't say parables help to illustrate my point. No, he says, I use parables
00:08:19 to fulfill the prophet Isaiah who said, ever seeing but never perceiving, ever hearing but
00:08:25 never listening, right? That their eyes would be blinded, their ears would be deafened. Isaiah
00:08:31 prophesied of Christ saying that he's going to speak in such a way that people, it will be
00:08:35 unclear. So the parables are not meant to be helpful illustrations to make the point. They're
00:08:41 actually meant to be mysterious riddles intentionally for the point that, so that
00:08:47 many will miss Jesus' point. And then Jesus, but to you, these things have been revealed. And then
00:08:53 he explains the parables to his disciples, right? And so my point is, even in that, you have this
00:08:59 idea of there could be, there's some measure of revelation, there's some measure of grace,
00:09:04 and that's what Romans 1 said. Everybody's received some measure of grace by simply living
00:09:08 in God's world, right? God has revealed his existence, certain attributes of God, his eternal
00:09:15 power, his divine nature by creation itself testifies to the existence of God by what he has
00:09:21 made so that all men are without an excuse. So, all men have received some grace and we would
00:09:27 argue biblically that they've received enough grace through natural revelation to be not saved,
00:09:34 But all men have received enough grace, enough revelation from God through creation itself
00:09:40 to be justly condemned, to be without an excuse, for God to be just and justified when he judges
00:09:46 sinful men. But not all people receive enough special grace to be saved. And then what is that
00:09:55 if not some kind of quasi-election? Think about that. So, just think about it in terms of God's
00:10:02 omniscience. All right. The omniscience of God, meaning he knows all things. He knows the end
00:10:06 from the beginning. All right. So if God knows all things, he's omniscient. And let's add to that,
00:10:10 if God is omnipotent, so not just he knows all things, but he can do all things. He's all
00:10:14 powerful, all knowing and all powerful. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he knows all things
00:10:20 and can do all things. Then that means for each individual person who's ever lived, God knows
00:10:25 exactly what it would take to persuade them to salvation, for them to repent of their sins and
00:10:30 put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the apostle Paul on the way to Damascus, right? So God
00:10:36 knows all things. He knows exactly what it would take for each individual to come to Christ. And
00:10:40 God can do all things. He's omnipotent, not just omniscient, but omnipotent. He can do all things,
00:10:44 meaning God is fully capable of doing exactly what he knows is needed to bring them to Christ.
00:10:52 But he doesn't. He doesn't. Why? I don't know. I mean, the closest I can get to answering that
00:10:59 question is romans 9 right that that why does god save people by by his grace well ephesians 1 to
00:11:06 the praise of his glorious grace god predestined some and save some elect some to the praise of
00:11:10 his glorious grace and i feel like on the flip side what we would have to say kind of cross
00:11:15 referencing exegeting ephesians 1 in light of romans 9 is that god chooses not to save some
00:11:21 to the praise of his glorious holiness god saves to the praise of his glorious grace and he doesn't
00:11:28 save to the praise of his glorious judgment, to the praise of his glorious justice. I don't know,
00:11:35 he's God. I mean, Romans 9, I think covers it well. The apostle Paul says, well, that doesn't
00:11:41 seem fair. And Paul says, but who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Does the clay have the right
00:11:47 to say to the potter, why did you make me like this? Does not the potter reserve the right to
00:11:51 make out of the same lump of clay, some for honorable use and some for common use, dishonorable
00:11:57 is what the text actually says. That's what the word means. Dishonorable use. He's gone.
00:12:03 I don't know. He's gone. All I know is that he's good. He is just. What he does is right.
00:12:11 And he's also good. And I don't always understand it, but that is the reformed view. And my point
00:12:16 is in saying all that, my point is to say for the Arminian, well, some people get more
00:12:20 prevenient grace and some people get less prevenient grace. And there are verses that
00:12:23 cover this. And for the provisionists like Leighton, he doesn't do the provenient grace thing.
00:12:29 What he does is he just denies the doctrine of total depravity. And so he'd say, well,
00:12:33 I affirm total depravity, but I don't define it as total inability. So even Jacobus Arminius
00:12:39 would say to Leighton, that's no, that's no. Because Jacobus Arminius and Arminians,
00:12:46 classic Arminians affirm, they affirm total depravity as total inability. And Leighton 0.99
00:12:52 would basically say, well, people are sinners and everybody needs salvation, but people are not so
00:12:56 far gone in their sin, in their sin nature that they cannot hear the gospel and come to faith.
00:13:02 So people don't need to be brought to a state of neutrality from a state of hostility to God
00:13:07 with this prevenient grace clause. No, people can kind of, you know, they're already kind of there
00:13:13 or they can get there or the gospel will bring them there, but not the spirit. And there's a
00:13:20 distinction there because then it becomes kind of like this almost catholic eastern orthodox
00:13:25 sacramental view of the gospel right the gospel is the power of god for salvation first for the
00:13:30 jew and then for the greek but the gospel is is not a sacrament the gospel uh does not infuse
00:13:36 grace it's faith in the gospel by grace that imputes righteousness and so so there's there's
00:13:43 problems with that but the point is provisionism arminianism calvinism and i went through all those
00:13:48 links to let you know why that's where I am. And that's why I hold to that. Um, and then you would
00:13:53 have things like Pelagianism, right? Which would be a heresy. Um, there are partial semi Pelagianists,
00:14:00 uh, Pelagianists. And, and with that, it's like basically, all right. So there's monergism. That's
00:14:05 the idea that like God reaches down and saves man. It's not teamwork makes the dream work. It's just,
00:14:09 it's a work of God, his unconditional election, his power to glory, to the glory of God alone.
00:14:14 Okay. That's monergism. All right. Then there's synergism and that would be semi-Pelagianism.
00:14:20 That's where man reaches up and God reaches down. Teamwork makes the dream work. God's reaching
00:14:24 down. He's reaching down to everyone. The determinative factor and who gets saved and
00:14:28 who doesn't is up to man. Is he going to reach up to God or is he going to reject God's help,
00:14:33 God's salvation? Okay. That's synergism. That would fall underneath the bounds of orthodoxy.
00:14:39 I think it's wrong, but it's not a heresy, okay?
00:14:42 And that would be under this synergistic view of salvation, a semi-Pelagianism would be
00:14:49 your provisionism, would be your Arminianism.
00:14:52 But then there's just straight up Pelagianism, no semi, but just, and that's where man just 0.65
00:14:58 reaches up to God, and man is pretty much doing it all, and that would be a heresy.
00:15:04 So monergism, that's like Calvinism. Semi-Pelagianism, synergism, that's Arminianism,
00:15:11 provisionism. I think it's wrong, but it's not a heresy. And then there's straight up Pelagianism
00:15:17 where man does all the work. And therefore, logically, we can only assume that man deserves 0.97
00:15:22 all the glory. So anyways, I hope that helps. So Arminianism and Calvinism, those are the two
00:15:28 primary soteriological views, but there are others. Provisionism would be one of them.
00:15:34 Pelagianism, although heresy would be one of them. You can maybe argue Molinism, although 0.84
00:15:40 that's not primarily talking about salvation, but it does address that. So that's at least
00:15:45 five views right there. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick, before you go,
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