The NXR Podcast - THE CONFERENCE - Live Panel on Biblical Patriarchy & Christian Nationalism - Deevers, Wilson, Sauve, Conn, and Webbon

00:00:00.000 So the idea for this panel is to talk about biblical patriarchy.

00:00:04.560 Eric just did a great job on the topic,

00:00:06.760 and now putting a little bit more into practice and discussion format.

00:00:12.080 And let's begin by just praying.

00:00:14.200 Father, we pray that you would bless our time together,

00:00:16.240 help us to be wise, help us to be clear in our discourse.

00:00:20.460 And we just pray that all that we say would be ultimately for your glory

00:00:24.700 and the good of your people.

00:00:25.580 We pray this for Jesus' sake. Amen.

00:00:28.000 Okay, I'm just going to dive right in so that we don't like build up to exciting discourse. We can

00:00:34.400 just have it right away. So this is my first question for all of you. It's a agree or disagree

00:00:39.800 question with the follow-up being why? And we'll go individually. Everybody gets the answer. Take

00:00:45.240 as long as you want. And it could be just the only question for 90 minutes and it might get us all

00:00:49.420 the... I have a feeling. I have a feeling. So it has been said recently on Twitter

00:00:55.280 that the word was mirror, and I did not like it,

00:01:01.480 but that tradwives is the mirror kind of exact opposite,

00:01:07.640 like two sides but of the same coin,

00:01:09.700 the mirror movement of red pill.

00:01:13.360 Agree, disagree, and why?

00:01:17.140 Eric, I'd love to hear from you first.

00:01:19.540 Yeah, so I would disagree.

00:01:21.680 And the basic reason why is I think

00:01:23.400 when you look at the the red pill movement uh i think the guy that most people will think of is

00:01:29.100 andrew tate so if you follow the red pill moment down through like andrew tate what are you going

00:01:36.000 to get you're going to get like bugattis and a harem right and i think then when you look at

00:01:42.240 something like trad wives for the most part it's like if if what i get out of that is like pretty

00:01:46.600 dresses and sourdough I'm I feel like that's a different thing than Andrew Tate so that's that's

00:01:54.340 my basic disagree and I know Brian we were actually talking about this he's got a long

00:01:58.180 beautiful let's hear Brian that's great I mean there's more to be said but everything you said

00:02:04.580 I personally agree with but right um nuance and it depends as it stated if I have to say yes or

00:02:12.220 know, I'd say no. I can see how you would get there from a certain line of reasoning. And it

00:02:18.700 would go like this. The red pill manosphere is responding to real, actual problems in the world

00:02:24.780 where people are disobeying God and the nature that he gave them. And so there are all sorts

00:02:30.940 of problems when that happens. There are problems in marriages where men are getting married and

00:02:37.840 maybe committing no covenant breaking sin. And then one day find their wife of 10, 20 years 0.51

00:02:44.540 gone with the kids, go into court, get a no fault divorce and take his kids and half his income for

00:02:50.680 18 years. Right? So one of the things that happens when, when that becomes the legal background of

00:02:56.160 our culture, which it very much is, uh, is that you're going to have a reaction that's just based

00:03:02.100 on people having eyes in their head. And some men are going to say, well, our culture has been very

00:03:06.940 anti-men in lots of ways, so let's be pro-men. But then one of the dangers of that is that you can

00:03:13.300 have a pro-men message, which is severely lacking in our culture, that is then but not governed by

00:03:20.280 Christ. So then they say, what should a man be and do? And then they're just going to answer that

00:03:25.020 question, most often in the manosphere world, through an evolutionary perspective and worldview

00:03:29.800 and go back to Greek and Roman philosophy and Stoicism. And you do, you end up with working

00:03:36.160 out, high tea, eat steak, and have a harem, which is just a different way of ruining the world

00:03:42.600 than the way that they were reacting to. The same thing happens in our world on the side of 0.96

00:03:49.620 femininity, where femininity can be corrupted in multiple directions, just like masculinity can. 0.99

00:03:57.280 And so you're going to have counter movements reacting to that. One thing you can have that is 0.50

00:04:02.160 certainly a part of the trad wife movement, which, by the way, I'm not an expert in and don't follow

00:04:08.820 trad wife accounts because I'm married. I have a wife who makes sourdough and wears dresses, you

00:04:17.400 know, a good fair bit of time. But you can have sort of a pinup pornified version of traditionalism

00:04:25.380 that's actually, at its root, ultra not traditional, 0.94

00:04:29.480 and it's just women who are wearing low-cut shirts

00:04:32.600 on Instagram or TikTok and monetized, 1.00

00:04:34.920 they're getting a lot of airplay out of a trend, 0.98

00:04:38.940 which is a reaction to feminism

00:04:41.180 and the flattening of all sexual distinctions. 0.97

00:04:44.300 So then we have androgyny.

00:04:45.520 Well, what are we gonna do?

00:04:46.140 We're gonna have hyper-femininity 1.00

00:04:47.480 that actually ends up not being feminine at all. 0.51

00:04:51.560 Same thing with the red pill, in a sense.

00:04:53.900 So I see that, but the difference that I would say is that I don't think that that's the dominant note of the vast majority of the content that I see around the traditional femininity kind of world.

00:05:06.900 a lot of it genuinely is i think women reclaiming roles in the home as being a helper

00:05:13.620 cooking caring for your people clothing them well undoing some of the ill effects of the

00:05:20.800 industrial revolution that's atomizing the home and tearing everybody in a million directions

00:05:25.600 so on the surface i would say they are different because the heart of the manosphere movement

00:05:30.820 really the dominant notes and and i've spoken at manosphere conference conferences and it's like

00:05:36.660 at the heart of it, the dominant note is evolutionary harem building, pickup artistry,

00:05:43.680 absolute filth, about 98% of it in my experience. And then in the trad wife movement, I think it's 0.89

00:05:52.880 a very different ratio that's actually, a lot of it is genuinely Christian. I think quite a bit of 0.63

00:05:59.860 it is genuinely Christian. So I want both to return to nature. Really the answer to me is like, 1.00

00:06:05.940 I want men to return to faithful, monogamous,

00:06:10.080 covenant marriage in Christ's name. 1.00

00:06:12.300 I want women to return to older women, 0.99

00:06:15.240 teach the younger women to be workers at home, 1.00

00:06:16.960 love your children, love your husband, 0.95

00:06:18.180 lest the word of God be reviled.

00:06:19.860 That's what I wanna see.

00:06:21.420 So I think there's some missing on both sides,

00:06:23.180 but some of it does have to do with your perspective.

00:06:25.320 What are you looking at on Instagram?

00:06:26.860 What's the algorithm feeding you?

00:06:28.240 Because there certainly is pinup version 1.00

00:06:29.520 of trad wife culture out there. 0.98

00:06:31.880 So that was a typical, Eric says no,

00:06:34.400 and then I talk for five times longer and say nuanced,

00:06:37.820 welcome to the King's Hall podcast.

00:06:39.180 That's basically.

00:06:40.460 He really just means no.

00:06:42.220 All right, Pastor Doug.

00:06:44.060 So I agree with everything that's just been said thus far.

00:06:47.980 I would maybe set the cat among the pigeons.

00:06:51.600 I would also say there was nothing in what was just said

00:06:54.880 that was inconsistent with what Allie Beth said

00:06:57.640 in that first clip.

00:06:59.300 She was saying, okay, this is great.

00:07:02.340 Nothing against sourdough, nothing against,

00:07:03.760 But there's a way of pretending, which you just said.

00:07:08.160 And I've certainly seen before.

00:07:10.120 We went through this back in the 80s and 90s.

00:07:13.140 There was another version of the same sort of thing with the homeschool mom.

00:07:17.460 And there was the same sort of thing. 0.90

00:07:20.460 And I came, as a pastor, I came to the conclusion that there's sometimes an inverse ratio between the size of the head covering and the submissiveness of the woman. 0.99

00:07:31.320 Right. 1.00

00:07:31.420 Yeah. 1.00

00:07:31.880 Why does your wife wear her head covering to church? 1.00

00:07:39.660 She insisted. 0.95

00:07:44.540 So, okay.

00:07:46.800 But to echo what you just said and to amen it,

00:07:51.540 domesticity is discipleship.

00:07:56.240 Domesticity is the calling that God has called women to. 0.99

00:07:59.360 and this is the apostolic instruction is that women are to be busy at home there be keepers

00:08:05.460 at home they're to give themselves over to it so that the word of god may not be blasphemed

00:08:10.200 but discipleship is hard you know it's challenging being a godly husband and a godly father

00:08:17.700 is challenging and it's the same with being a godly woman it and it's easy to be godly on

00:08:24.740 Instagram, basically.

00:08:27.040 I can take a photo

00:08:28.740 of my quiet time and not have to go through

00:08:30.820 it.

00:08:33.560 So,

00:08:34.360 agree,

00:08:36.740 and I think I would, I'm

00:08:38.660 certain that I would have disagreements

00:08:40.720 with Allie Beth at various junctures,

00:08:43.040 but I think that what she was saying

00:08:44.860 in that initial clip was something

00:08:46.760 that the conservative Christians

00:08:48.820 ought to hear. Okay, no role-playing. 0.80

00:08:50.940 Let's not do role-playing. Let's

00:08:52.760 do it for real, because we mean it.

00:08:54.740 And it's a sacrifice to the Father.

00:08:58.160 And I think that we should reclaim, be working to reclaim patriarchy.

00:09:03.120 I'll just finish with the word patriarchy.

00:09:07.800 I've never been comfortable with the word complementarian.

00:09:11.720 And I think it's because left-wing complementarians are basically egalitarians.

00:09:18.020 And right-wing complementarians are patriarchal.

00:09:21.400 So let's just call it what it is.

00:09:23.780 and then um not pastor but senator deavers your turn why not both oh yeah you're right all right

00:09:32.340 it's just everybody gets to be a pastor the reverend none of us are cool enough to be

00:09:36.400 senators you're the only one so you've got it you've got to own that title but pastor senator

00:09:40.840 reverend the great dusty deavers please keep going the most reverend pastor

00:09:48.080 now we're getting somewhere

00:09:51.260 so I didn't catch 0.80

00:09:54.520 any of the Allie Beth Stuckey

00:09:56.080 trad wife conversation

00:09:58.200 because I was out 0.61

00:09:59.060 legislating morality

00:10:00.200 and about time

00:10:10.060 speaking of no fault divorce

00:10:15.000 I'm not going to make

00:10:18.380 any further comment on that issue

00:10:19.960 I'd rather talk about

00:10:22.440 abolishing pornography or 0.83

00:10:23.940 abolishing abortion, not smashing it 0.69

00:10:26.340 or no fault divorce 0.76

00:10:30.200 oh Dusty 0.98

00:10:31.880 come on 1.00

00:10:32.480 we'll have to have a sidebar

00:10:34.140 he gets a chance to respond 0.99

00:10:36.840 I'd have to smash it in the mouth 1.00

00:10:38.400 oh 1.00

00:10:40.880 yeah

00:10:41.900 go ahead

00:10:43.800 You guys get to take that topic. 0.93

00:10:45.120 Dusty said, look at me.

00:10:46.380 This is my panel now.

00:10:48.120 Look at me.

00:10:48.960 I'm the captain now.

00:10:50.100 I'm the senator now.

00:10:51.120 The next topic is going to Indy this summer to disrupt the SBC.

00:10:56.720 Amen?

00:10:57.420 Who's coming with me?

00:11:00.740 All right.

00:11:01.720 So these are my thoughts.

00:11:03.100 So everything that was said thus far, I agree with.

00:11:06.500 These are my thoughts specifically on since that clip is in view,

00:11:11.480 and it should be.

00:11:12.160 Like, we don't have to dance around and be coy.

00:11:15.260 I didn't have any problem either with what was said in the clip, so I agree with you, Doug.

00:11:19.220 For me, as I thought about it, it was the context of the hour-long panel that happened with Founders.

00:11:29.540 And Tom Askell is incredible and deserves all our respect and all our honor and the benefit of the doubt.

00:11:35.160 But the hour-long panel, that context didn't quite fit it for me.

00:11:40.680 It didn't fix it for me because that's part of the context.

00:11:45.300 But then the larger context is not the hour.

00:11:47.720 But for me, it's the last nine months.

00:11:50.640 And so I'll just, you know, I'll be frank, but also careful and charitable.

00:11:54.760 There are other statements that, you know, I'm going to hear that portion, that clip,

00:11:59.620 but I'm going to hear it in light of other things that have been said.

00:12:02.620 And I think part of the challenge, it's kind of gets to my talk earlier this afternoon,

00:12:08.580 is obedience in theory.

00:12:10.940 I think that's one of my big concerns. 1.00

00:12:12.220 I'm concerned about pietism. 0.95

00:12:13.580 I'm concerned about theoretical obedience.

00:12:16.560 So, you know, one of the statements that has been made

00:12:19.320 is that, you know, godly motherhood, for instance,

00:12:23.100 is not the highest calling of a Christian woman,

00:12:26.140 but rather the highest calling of a Christian woman.

00:12:29.120 The woman portion is irrelevant,

00:12:31.200 whether it be Christian woman or Christian man

00:12:34.040 or child or adult.

00:12:35.420 The highest calling of all Christians

00:12:37.120 is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

00:12:40.180 And my immediate response is, how?

00:12:44.280 I just, I feel like we have to, yes, of course, a million times,

00:12:47.800 a million amens, glorify God and enjoy him forever.

00:12:51.740 But if it's only, if it's merely theory,

00:12:54.760 then obedience becomes androgynous, becomes generic,

00:12:57.800 it becomes theoretical.

00:13:01.540 The favorite egalitarian verse that's always used

00:13:05.660 is, you know, Ephesians 5, when you look at the headline, and then you get into Paul's case

00:13:10.860 studies. But the headline principle is mutual submission to one another out of reverence for

00:13:15.080 Christ. But then Paul doesn't just leave it in the abstract. He then begins to say, and this is

00:13:21.060 what that mutual submission for one another as the body of Christ out of reverence for Christ

00:13:24.960 looks like based off of God's sovereignly appointed station for that individual in their life.

00:13:30.880 because the egalitarian wants to have

00:13:33.760 the verse about mutual submission in Ephesians 5

00:13:37.300 override what Paul later says

00:13:40.360 about husbands and wives particularly

00:13:43.080 that the husband is called to love his wife 0.91

00:13:46.060 and lead his wife and the wife is called to submit

00:13:48.300 but if you use that hermeneutic and you were consistent with it

00:13:51.660 you'd have to also apply that to parents and children

00:13:53.800 so you'd have to say to the parents

00:13:55.680 they go and tell their 3 year old

00:13:58.900 hey you need to do this and the three-year-old says no and the parent of course needs to mutually

00:14:03.860 submit to that three-year-old and right like let's be consistent right if it's it's so it's

00:14:08.960 mutual submission as the principle but there's a practical visible expression and that varies

00:14:15.900 with particularity based off of station of life and gender comes into the picture man or woman or

00:14:23.060 single or married, parent or child. And so what I'm concerned about is biblical womanhood is not

00:14:33.260 synonymous or somehow exhaustively described by sourdough and sundresses. Sure. But then I would

00:14:43.700 love to have a follow-up of, if not, then what? And I want the what not just to describe matters

00:14:51.500 of the heart. I want the what at some point to also embrace matters of practice. Like there's a

00:14:58.820 guy, you might have heard of him, but he once said, theology comes out of our fingertips. I thought it

00:15:03.860 was really good, you know. And that's for all of us, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman,

00:15:09.640 theology in practice, theology applied. And so, and I do believe that the practical obedience of

00:15:16.420 a woman particularly a married woman who is a mother is a um a she's a lady of the hearth

00:15:22.340 as brian said i think that's a great way she is um home oriented she is uh it's it's a domestic 0.76

00:15:27.980 feminine beauty um she's not she's not a slay queen she's not a boss babe she's not uh she's

00:15:34.860 not fierce like you got to do something with first peter three and a quiet and gentle spirit

00:15:39.420 is the way that this inner beauty uh that's imperishable the heart is defined and and as

00:15:44.660 quiet and gentle mean you must make sourdough of course not but if not good sourdough good sourdough 0.99

00:15:52.100 right so i just want to hear okay so because every woman's going to look different some women are 1.00

00:15:55.900 going to be incredibly domestic and feminine um but they're gonna be like sourdough's gross we 0.89

00:16:00.320 just don't like it and they make something else that's really awesome but what what is it that

00:16:05.200 that's my thoughts let me say something towards that uh jared moore uh who is running for sbc

00:16:12.300 president i'm dropping this this guy is shameless this is a politician i'm hoping that uh somebody's

00:16:18.960 recording these things to send to william wolf um but jared moore who's running for sbc president 0.59

00:16:25.000 in his book uh lust of the flesh he talks about that holiness so if you tell a man who's who's

00:16:31.800 been uh you know same sex attracted uh the point for him to overcome is not just holiness pursue

00:16:40.740 holiness. It's pursue holiness that particularly looks like heterosexual marriage, true marriage.

00:16:49.740 That's what you're to pursue. That's what it is to glorify God in your sexuality, in your life.

00:16:55.760 Not just to stop doing something, but to put on Christ in these areas. So I think that's what

00:17:02.480 you're getting at. On the ground, it's don't just put off certain sins. Don't just mortify certain

00:17:09.320 things, but vivify, come to life and put on Christ in these ways. And whenever you think about

00:17:17.080 men's and women's roles, be zealous for these good works that were prepared for you before

00:17:23.020 the foundation of the world. Pretty straightforward. And one of the things I think that comes into the

00:17:29.300 context of a lot of these conversations is we're trying to land principles that are timeless

00:17:35.060 in actual practical situations in a world

00:17:39.680 that is wildly disobedient to these principles.

00:17:43.100 So there's going to be some sparks,

00:17:45.460 but one of the things that I think conservatives

00:17:48.420 in particular have done just profoundly poorly

00:17:50.920 is that often one of the things we do

00:17:54.500 is to put our message forward,

00:17:57.400 we say, well, how's the world marketing things? 0.99

00:18:00.800 Well, they're getting a pretty lady 0.99

00:18:02.000 to be their spokesman for their thing, 0.91

00:18:04.720 getting a a news lady or they're getting a politics lady or they're getting a and then

00:18:09.700 they're going to send that lady out to do cultural battle and it smacks of marketing to me quite

00:18:16.860 often and the way that we're going to do it is by basically giving away a lot of our principles

00:18:22.920 right at the beginning because Paul really does say in Titus that if this doesn't happen

00:18:28.720 and he's talking about older women discipling younger women to be workers at home that the

00:18:35.780 word of god will be reviled that's a really big deal that we should take very seriously so there's

00:18:41.540 going to be a lot of um there's going to be a lot of sparks when that that principle heads into a

00:18:47.580 culture like ours i think but but i think we we are right to be skeptical when we see that

00:18:54.120 nature is is commonly counter-signaled or anytime you make an argument from nature and say the

00:19:00.660 nature of the woman is this and it lends itself it was it's not arbitrary god made the woman this

00:19:05.640 way for this vocation and god made the man this way for this vocation um often the instinct i

00:19:11.900 think you're pointing to joel is that we want to immediately soften that back to a spiritual thing

00:19:16.040 that has no teeth in the real world and say well don't you know that it's about godliness not

00:19:21.620 strength men and you'd say well no just because the manosphere uses strength to pick up 20 women

00:19:28.020 per month at a bar strength isn't the problem their weakness is the problem that they have

00:19:34.120 no strength and self-control over their flesh um so i i do think that that's part of this

00:19:39.320 conversation is a lot of people miss we want to boil it down to propositions in abstract

00:19:43.760 but we really are looking at a situation in the world

00:19:48.040 where conservatism for too long

00:19:52.300 has just been leftism with a different flavor,

00:19:55.500 like cherry leftism, grape leftism.

00:19:59.760 Slow leftism.

00:20:01.280 Slow leftism.

00:20:02.580 And so when you say something like,

00:20:05.640 man, I really don't want to make a state of affairs

00:20:08.720 where we just, conservatives begin to prop up

00:20:12.120 And we say, well, for political commentary, we're going to have our lady guy and our lady and we're going to have our guy.

00:20:18.220 And then for theology, we're going to have our lady guy.

00:20:22.600 But that's going to be pretty controversial in the world today because, I mean, now you're talking about something that's about, you know, a couple country miles away from where the culture is.

00:20:33.340 I agree with all of that, and we shouldn't be, for PR reasons, sending our women out to do the fighting for us.

00:20:44.840 Oh, you're a woman, you can talk about abortion, and we can't. 1.00

00:20:47.940 That's ceding the territory to the enemy. 1.00

00:20:52.240 So we shouldn't send women out to do our fight our battles. 1.00

00:20:56.800 At the same time, and I think we have to be careful about us not fighting with the women ourselves, right? 0.99

00:21:02.880 So if that's part of the default in the evangelical world, where there are women out there,

00:21:10.420 and women like Allie Beth have done a lot of good and are on our side in the main,

00:21:16.260 and I don't think we should be fighting with them either.

00:21:19.260 If there's a better way, and there is a better way, then I think we should model it and just send them in.

00:21:26.460 Where are the men? Send them in into the fray.

00:21:29.100 and I think a lot of godly women would say 1.00

00:21:31.500 thanks for the 1.00

00:21:33.300 reinforcements and I'm going to go home

00:21:35.280 and make some sourdough

00:21:36.160 any

00:21:38.880 more thoughts Eric you didn't talk much

00:21:41.240 any other thoughts that you want to add or anybody

00:21:43.240 else and if not I definitely

00:21:45.400 want to you know this is what we said

00:21:47.240 to all of you guys who came to the conference that we're going to

00:21:49.380 talk about biblical patriarchy

00:21:51.220 and I think there's some more that we can address

00:21:52.960 but I also

00:21:54.500 it was an audible you know we just ran

00:21:57.380 an audible but we we have dusty and we have doug and we have the ogden boys i feel like christian

00:22:03.140 nationalism is is worth uh right i mean why why do something as controversial as you know

00:22:08.600 controversial as patriarchy when you could talk about you know christian nationalism so i think

00:22:12.460 that'd be a worthy endeavor as well but eric is you just didn't talk much so yeah no my only other

00:22:17.080 thought is really pastoral um one of the things we talk a lot about in ogden is kind of this idea

00:22:23.260 that women can't be pastored by men.

00:22:25.900 So sort of to Doug's point, 0.94

00:22:27.260 like we need a lady for everything. 1.00

00:22:29.160 So this was sort of the problem, I think,

00:22:30.660 with Matt Chandler.

00:22:32.460 What was the? 1.00

00:22:33.180 Jen Wilkins.

00:22:33.520 Jen Wilkins, right? 1.00

00:22:34.780 You need a woman pastor for women.

00:22:36.940 So I think just practically, 0.97

00:22:38.560 one of the ways that you solve this long-term 0.88

00:22:40.360 is actually by men pastoring

00:22:43.220 all the people in their congregation.

00:22:46.580 And so then they're used to that.

00:22:48.100 I think what is challenging to Doug's point 1.00

00:22:50.220 is you do have women

00:22:51.820 who have essentially stepped on the agon they've gone out into the arena and stepped on what stepped

00:22:58.600 into the agon so the arena that they're they're going out in a place where fundamentally they're

00:23:03.900 they're being like a man but then they're they're also pulling the rug out and they're saying but

00:23:08.740 you have to treat me like a lady too and so i think that's why it's sort of an unwinnable position

00:23:13.580 now to doug's point i've actually wrestled with it like what do you do in that in that scenario

00:23:18.700 because a lot of times you've got like Allie Bath she's teaching on complementarianism and

00:23:23.600 patriarchy and making quite a mess of it in many points and then we have to pastorally deal with

00:23:30.300 that because your women are listening to it yeah and so then you have to respond to it and you're 0.99

00:23:35.440 like well I I don't I generally don't want to get into it with this lady she's in a role she 0.97

00:23:41.420 shouldn't be in that would be my take in terms of particularly teaching theology in that in that

00:23:46.640 section but you get into that and then you say what what do i do pastorally because you know

00:23:52.680 it's it's the old like you don't hit a girl but what happens when she comes in swinging

00:23:56.480 with with a knife yes good point good point um what that was one other thing i wanted to say

00:24:05.080 about i can go ahead go ahead yeah filibuster i can summarize christian nationalism

00:24:11.920 in a way that will cause all Christians everywhere to agree.

00:24:17.380 Oh, by mimicking the woman, the leftist woman, 0.82

00:24:20.500 who said they believe that rights come from God?

00:24:23.200 No.

00:24:23.780 I think all Christians should be able to agree on this. 1.00

00:24:27.820 America should stop making God angry.

00:24:30.120 who's going to rise up and say no it's okay for america to continue to

00:24:42.840 make god does 60 million unborn children slaughtered not make him angry does a

00:24:49.680 burger fell not make him angry does the uh the scourge of porn across does that not make him

00:24:55.920 angry are are we not visiting are we not inviting him to visit judgment upon us so i i suggest why

00:25:03.020 don't we stop it it's like that clip uh from what i can't even remember this show new heart

00:25:10.340 stop it yeah i have two two words for you now i find that most people can remember them yeah

00:25:15.700 um okay this is one thing with christian nationalism just to go so and i'm curious to

00:25:21.520 hear doug's take i've talked to you guys about it dusty i think i i haven't talked to you but

00:25:25.260 i can assume but i'd love to hear your take too um you know i i think a lot of guys are like why

00:25:29.920 do we need the label we already have one you know it's it's theonomy or you know uh it's it's this

00:25:35.180 or it's that and they didn't like that one either well yeah but but i'm saying that theonomists

00:25:39.220 like it you know and so you know and so like we already have a label um and one of the things

00:25:44.540 that i've noticed and i'm not saying this is the definition because nobody gets that's well that's

00:25:48.140 the trouble with it nobody gets to say this is the definition um but one of the things that i've

00:25:52.600 noticed just in talking to guys who are you know christian nationalists self-defined you know

00:25:56.780 self-labeled uh is one thing i've i've noticed as a distinction is they're uh they're very comfortable

00:26:04.220 with um they're very comfortable with the civil magistrate and the nation as a whole stepping in

00:26:11.300 coming into obedience to christ with uh one of two ways they're open to both ways the two ways

00:26:17.520 being this, it could be a mass move of God's spirit and a revival and just sheer number of

00:26:24.100 regenerate hearts, 50% plus one of the population of these United States that are born again through,

00:26:30.480 you know, gospel preaching. And then that lends towards Christians who are in public office and

00:26:35.140 begin to legislate righteous laws. But they also, and I've noticed this as a distinction from some,

00:26:41.780 I can't speak for all theonomists, but some of the older school theonomists who have been like,

00:26:46.940 that's cute Christian nationalism. You know, we've been doing this for, you know, 40 years. 0.50

00:26:51.000 But I've noticed some of the theonomists are less comfortable where the CN, some of the younger guys

00:26:56.340 are, they're comfortable with bottom up, but also top down. Like they would say something,

00:27:02.320 and I would say this too, but they would say, you know, but like the Homo Jihad replaced the flag 0.73

00:27:09.300 of the United States with the rainbow in the course of 40 years with less than 3% of the 0.79

00:27:14.180 population so why why are christians not allowed to do that again that you know that a lot of

00:27:20.320 political change and and and when we understand that the law is a tutor so we're not saying that

00:27:25.380 that's going to save anybody but the law does function as a tutor and in a in a lawful country

00:27:30.940 there is more of an awareness the first use of the law more of an awareness of oh i'm a sinner i need

00:27:35.780 a savior and and it sets it works as that black velvet backdrop for the brilliance of the diamond

00:27:41.540 for those gospel preachers now to preach a gospel that maybe falls on less deaf ears. And so I feel

00:27:47.320 like, yeah, Lord, I'm going to pray for revival, but I'm also going to work towards, if we don't

00:27:53.680 have the numbers, that we still, that we could have a few high caliber men called by God that

00:28:01.940 would work into positions of civil leadership and do what's right, even if we're the minority.

00:28:06.700 in maybe that. It could be power from a minority that paves the way for gospel preaching and

00:28:13.720 revival. Or it could be revival. What do you guys think? Yeah, this is very true. If we got a King

00:28:18.400 Josiah, I would take it. You can do an awful lot of good top down. So I would thank God. I would

00:28:27.180 rejoice in it. I would pray for him. I would also be aware that after King Josiah died,

00:28:33.440 the people went back very quickly to the old ways so it's got to be i think it has to be both

00:28:39.760 you you have to have leadership genuine leadership godly a godly prince godly president godly

00:28:46.040 legislators are used by god to do good but the people have got to respond in true faith there's

00:28:52.640 got to be a genuine thing there and so i would i would like to see it meet in the middle we've been

00:28:59.060 praying for a Josiah. And it looks like in this next election, we might get a Jehu. 0.97

00:29:07.140 But I'll take the Jehu.

00:29:11.240 Dusty, any thoughts? Yeah. So if we get a Josiah, the Lord make it so, he's got to focus on 0.99

00:29:21.320 repentance orienting us back to the God not of this system but the God over all systems

00:29:27.900 whenever he does that and he's continually calling for repentance which is reorienting

00:29:35.260 our hearts and minds to our God alongside well he can be a great tool of repentance

00:29:46.180 not just correcting some laws but aiming at hearts aiming it not just stapling fruit to a dead tree

00:29:55.460 but changing the roots and we've got to one of the things that that let's just take an example

00:30:05.100 out of our current day if you run legislation to abolish pornography you might find yourself on

00:30:13.340 Jimmy Fallon? Any of the Jimmys. You might find yourself on there, not because you intend to,

00:30:23.140 but because you stick out so radically. And we should all ask ourselves, why would that even

00:30:28.940 stick out? Why would that make news? It shouldn't make Jimmy Fallon. It shouldn't even make our

00:30:35.280 local news because it shouldn't be a big deal. But it's such a big deal that it drives Rolling

00:30:42.540 stone, that it drives Jimmy Fallon, that it drives the Guardian and the UK Independent. It drives all

00:30:49.540 these conversations. Drives them nuts. It drives them. Yeah, absolutely drives them nuts, and it

00:30:57.180 drives the demons that are behind them all to say, we must defeat this God. There's a God here that

00:31:06.720 is untamable and unruly and there is someone in the camp claiming him and they do not want it

00:31:14.100 to be it shouldn't stick out so if you if this sticks out if you think about in your town if you

00:31:22.340 went to a city council meeting and say it and said we are going to let's pass legislation that would

00:31:29.460 that would abolish pornography or abolish abortion

00:31:33.160 and guarantee that no business could ever open in this town 0.98

00:31:39.200 or no one will ever practice abortion in this town.

00:31:43.440 And if anyone does, they'll all be treated as murderers

00:31:45.980 from the top to the bottom.

00:31:47.520 And if we start a pornography,

00:31:49.860 any place that allows pornography,

00:31:53.000 they're going to see steep fines.

00:31:56.280 If you went to your city council meeting

00:31:57.700 and said those kinds of things,

00:31:59.100 would the people care at all would they think well that's we're already doing that it's fine

00:32:06.320 great or would they say or would they maybe throw things at you would they run newspaper articles

00:32:15.400 that lambast you and just smear you uh what would be their response and so if you think about what

00:32:23.200 that response would be in your town if it would be wild and crazy like what has happened uh with

00:32:30.880 jimmy fallon and rolling stone then you you probably aren't doing much in your town there's 0.84

00:32:36.960 one additional difference if you said that in your town everybody would write you off as just a crazy

00:32:42.460 in uh lone nutcase um you're different because you ran on that platform and got elected and that

00:32:51.860 spooked them so if you had if you weren't an office holder and you just spoke up at a city

00:32:57.920 council you might be a 30 second clip on somebody's youtube channel but you got elected and you got

00:33:04.920 elected saying out loud what you wanted to do and there were a whole lot of people that agreed with

00:33:11.960 that and supported you and there were a lot of establishment christians who quietly tried to

00:33:19.060 submarine. In other words, I think your position is strategically critical.

00:33:28.260 You're at the state level. But why is it international news? Well, it's international

00:33:35.300 news because it's a harbinger of something that's coming. I completely agree. And I think

00:33:41.260 I've talked about this before. I think in a lot of ways, there are a few of us that are at the

00:33:47.820 tip of a battering ram of a door that's just made out of paper that's all it is it's no bulwark

00:33:54.760 i'll tell you that it's and if a bunch of you and if people across our nation come on uh it just

00:34:04.620 wasn't that great it wasn't that great uh if if a bunch of us would would just start taking action

00:34:15.000 you you might see god do something uh in our generation that we haven't seen in many generations

00:34:22.320 i think there's there's a a theological error that progressivism has weaponized against us

00:34:29.960 and it's it's kept it's made us to see the wielding or the the pursuit of power as an evil

00:34:36.700 as an unchristian act they've basically confused the spheres and taken if if you you know

00:34:44.960 if your eye causes you to lust, tear it out, and then said, why are you trying to ban pornography?

00:34:49.220 Why doesn't everybody just tear their eye out? Well, because there's different spheres. There's

00:34:52.760 a minister that wields a sword, and then there's you before the Lord, and those are different

00:34:56.860 things. But what the left has successfully done is they've convinced us that for Christians,

00:35:03.420 hilariously, in a Christian nation, fundamentally, a Protestant nation, which is what America

00:35:08.660 fundamentally is historically, they've convinced us that if we try to assert Protestant ethics, 0.67

00:35:15.740 that we're sinning and that we're actually being un-Christlike and that we need to be,

00:35:22.180 well, you're not being meek enough. And it's like, well, no, you're confused. I think that's

00:35:26.000 a huge part of this is that if you didn't run, then we wouldn't know that there were enough

00:35:31.440 people there that would resonate with to elect you. And then there's a whole cascading series

00:35:36.440 of events that happens when Christians, because that's an assertion of power. You're submitting 1.00

00:35:40.540 to the system of election and all that, but you're asserting power. You're saying, no,

00:35:44.320 Christians actually want, you're saying we want the power to legislate God's law with respect to

00:35:51.100 sexual mores and marriage and currency and all these different things. And I think that's

00:35:56.880 something that we're starting to see the tide turn, particularly in the Zoomer generation, 1.00

00:36:01.680 where they're seeing, I think, this error of pietism and they're reacting in the right direction. 0.97

00:36:06.940 Eric, anything you want to add?

00:36:08.820 Yeah, honestly, my question for Dusty and maybe Doug,

00:36:11.760 Doug, you talked about kind of a coming wave

00:36:14.100 or something's coming that's changing.

00:36:16.860 It seems like one of the X factors in all this, though,

00:36:19.220 is the evangelical establishment.

00:36:21.620 Because it's not just like when you win,

00:36:24.400 there's people at the top of the SBC that don't like that.

00:36:27.740 So you've actually got to overcome more.

00:36:29.980 And my question is, A, what's that wave coming?

00:36:32.640 So for Doug.

00:36:33.460 and how do you break through the elite establishment i would say first i just stole

00:36:40.920 joel's podcast you're the captain now i'm the captain so i would say the evangelical establishment

00:36:48.280 by and large discredited itself during covid and parts of that establishment haven't recognized

00:36:58.020 that they did that but some of them have right they've they've quietly exited retired that sort

00:37:07.580 of thing i don't think the establishment is any i believe it's a ghost of what it once was

00:37:13.620 and i believe that a lot of people and i think there's a lot of empty seats up there

00:37:19.320 i don't think god has raised up people yet to occupy the positions of influence and leadership

00:37:26.080 we're we're in the changing of the guard we've seen a good portion of the old guard leave

00:37:31.560 and we don't know who the next generation of leaders will be um but i'm hopeful i i

00:37:38.360 you know um i'm i'm hopeful i'm i'm looking at um i think god's got good things in store

00:37:46.640 and then the second part of your question was it sounded more like for dusty like how are you

00:37:51.960 going to break through the regime within evangelicalism yeah because it's twofold right

00:37:55.760 it's political but you're also going to deal with the ecclesial last you know that's fear

00:37:59.820 church and i mean i think that's exactly what's happening since covid i think it was a a shaking

00:38:06.760 awakening uh you know we've talked i think i said it in my message the things that are shakable

00:38:11.980 not only will shake but they must shake and i think that god is bringing quite the shaking

00:38:17.460 since COVID. And he is realigning some things and exposing where the, I mean, the cracks were

00:38:25.840 that needed to be just burst wide open. When we saw churches closing for long periods, we saw

00:38:33.880 people, you know, with this love your neighbor propaganda that was really submit to your

00:38:40.660 neighbor and not submit to God, submit to the powers that be. And a lot of us were saying the

00:38:46.220 powers that be don't have jurisdiction. They're illegitimate. And why have we been bowing to these

00:38:52.300 powers that are just pseudo? It's our fault. It's the fault of pastors for not telling us

00:38:58.120 better. And if you don't have strong pastors that are preaching the authority of God from

00:39:03.540 the scriptures and teaching their people that the authority lies in the scriptures and not in

00:39:09.380 the culture or in your leaders, but it's in the scriptures. And we all have to bow to the same

00:39:15.300 standard, then the pews are going to establish the culture. And the culture then establishes 0.93

00:39:22.160 your law because, you know, power arises from the people. And what we ended up with was just

00:39:28.300 a whole bunch of people who were willing to be led by weak leaders. And I think by God's grace,

00:39:34.420 um and and and i told doug this earlier um i think the role that um that doug wilson played during

00:39:46.860 covid for so many of us whether we were baptists or presbyterian or anglican or whatever

00:39:52.280 he called us back to our confessions we've dealt with this before guys are you know many many years

00:40:02.560 ago, these dead guys had solved some of these problems. And we've gone so far away from them,

00:40:09.740 trusting in our own wisdom, trusting in our own strength. We've forgotten the wisdom of our

00:40:15.840 fathers. And with that reawakening, I think that what you're seeing that I'm just a part of,

00:40:24.260 that all of you guys are a part of, we're seeing God raising up people who will trust his word,

00:40:31.640 no matter what the culture says, and be able to say, this is the last thing, you know, the sloth

00:40:37.420 says, or the sluggard says, there's a lion in the streets. We'll all be killed. And instead of saying, 0.94

00:40:41.840 oh no, there's a lion in the streets. I think God's raising up a bunch of men that say, let's go get

00:40:46.580 the lion boys. Let's go kill them. And that's the point. If there's a lion, then let's go. If there's 1.00

00:40:55.980 not then we just proved you wrong but either way we've got to fight i'm a little bit turnt up amen

00:41:04.820 turnt up you did you guys have no idea dusty was uh just ripping out you know just a cool clean

00:41:10.940 hundred set push-ups in the green room right before i'm not even it was like several hundred

00:41:16.160 push-ups seriously this guy um all right so here's here's a question that i have i also have some

00:41:22.520 answers, but I like to hear your answers. And when I say you're, I mean the plural, all of you guys.

00:41:27.260 So we're getting at, you know, is it top down? Is it bottom up? That's just one example, but I'm

00:41:32.560 sure there's other examples that you guys may think of that I don't. What are some of, I'll

00:41:38.320 first start it with if. Are there any differences, distinctions between the theonomist position

00:41:46.940 and a Christian nationalist position? Because that's been some of the pushback is just,

00:41:50.860 why do we need this we already have a label we already have a team we you know go fight win

00:41:55.700 and and you guys you know like you know again it's cute the christian nationalists showed up 15

00:42:00.620 minutes ago but we've been here for 40 years slugging it out and so what uh what are is

00:42:06.180 christian nationalism just a modern phrase for theonomy or are there actually some distinctions

00:42:11.140 if so what are there i would say the um the work on defining christian nationalism is stephen wolf's

00:42:18.120 he is very much in the magisterial protestant tradition he's in the natural law tradition

00:42:24.100 and he's a tomist the theonomists were vantilian um more uh focused on uh god telling us through

00:42:33.580 revelation does special revelation as opposed to natural law so there's some denominational

00:42:39.680 differences right so but i regard those as denominational differences because i believe

00:42:45.860 that if Stephen Wolfe got to be in charge,

00:42:51.020 I think the theonomists would be very happy

00:42:53.600 with most of what he does,

00:42:56.320 way happier than what we have now.

00:43:00.920 And if the theonomists were in charge,

00:43:03.340 I think Stephen Wolfe would be way happier

00:43:05.740 than what we've got now.

00:43:08.000 And I like to joke if I were president

00:43:10.680 and what a glorious three days that would be.

00:43:13.140 i think i think i'd make steven wolf happy and i think it'd make the i think there's a lot of

00:43:21.800 the venn diagrams there it's not circles that map onto each other perfectly but there's a

00:43:27.760 there are a lot of things that everybody who loves god loves his word wants to see and uh i think we

00:43:35.640 would be very pleased with most of it. We might say with whoever wrote Chronicles, he was a good

00:43:43.140 king, but he didn't remove the high places. There'd be some of that. But compared to what

00:43:49.800 we're dealing with now, which is just ungodliness and anarchy on stilts, we are tumbling headlong

00:43:59.400 into the abyss I would I would take a theonomist I would take a Christian nationalist of Stephen's

00:44:07.680 stripe I'd be delighted with any of them and this goes back to the earlier point of I want us to 0.70

00:44:13.740 make sure that we keep our eye on the main adversary and not have not break out into intramural

00:44:20.820 quarrels it's the it's the disciples on the road arguing about who's going to be great in the

00:44:27.740 kingdom that we don't have yet you know that's good with real quick going back a page with the

00:44:34.720 top down bottom up thing um would you say the christian nationalists seem very comfortable

00:44:39.980 with top down um and not to the expense of bottom up we don't want anything less than revival but

00:44:46.180 in terms of chronological order and what god in his sovereignty he's his prerogative what he chooses

00:44:50.240 to do the the cn guys that i talked to offline they seem very comfortable with you know a a you

00:44:56.940 You know, slim minority getting it done, at least initially.

00:45:02.280 You know this crew much more than I do.

00:45:04.620 You've been around the block.

00:45:05.820 The Theonomists, I'm thinking the Theonomists of old.

00:45:09.120 I'm thinking of Bonson. 0.99

00:45:10.320 Were they as comfortable as some of the CN Young Bucks

00:45:14.320 with a minority approach of it's top-down first that leads them to bottom up? 0.91

00:45:18.380 I believe the old guard Theonomists and their heirs 0.96

00:45:21.860 would think that a top-down Christian prince would be a good thing 0.89

00:45:27.080 They would applaud it, but they wouldn't have high hopes for the long run.

00:45:33.720 Because they would say, this is great, but going back to what you said, we need the hearts of the people.

00:45:40.400 But there is a bully pulpit aspect to this that Solomon is the king, civil ruler, and he leads the people in worship when he dedicates the temple.

00:45:51.820 So I think that there's a number of things that the leaders could do if they agree with the theonomists that it's got to be heart change, then they can be part of that, should be part of it.

00:46:06.240 I think that's such an important point because some of the pushback that you get from people who have violently reacted against both theonomy, honestly, and Christian nationalism,

00:46:17.100 I think one of the key points they're missing is the didactic value of law.

00:46:24.700 Laws don't just result from the culture of a people.

00:46:27.840 Laws then turn around and shape the culture of the people.

00:46:30.700 So there is a very real sense in which culture is downstream from worship,

00:46:35.120 but part of our worship produces a legal system that then continues to disciple and radicalize people further and further.

00:46:42.280 So you can take something like no-fault divorce.

00:46:44.180 it didn't just capture well we we have this new idea about marriage and divorce it then turned

00:46:51.280 around and discipled people about what is marriage all about what is the nature of happiness in

00:46:55.920 marriage what is a successful marriage is marriage a permanent thing at all so like law has a

00:47:02.100 didactic value a didactic value and that's part of the top-down conversation is that that three

00:47:08.120 percent gets a dusty deavers elected and then dusty gets signal boosted by all the you know

00:47:14.680 the leftists that hate him and he ends up they end up accidentally discipling a couple thousand

00:47:19.280 more people every time they do that to agree with you who didn't previously right wing boost a very

00:47:24.040 clear gospel presentation of everything they could have cut out of our i mean any number of the

00:47:29.660 podcasts i've done they cut a three-minute gospel presentation and they sent it out and that's

00:47:34.260 exactly what we're talking about. That's why I try to be very clear whenever I'm addressing a crowd

00:47:39.860 or addressing the media. I step up. Like, we had a big event at the Capitol at the beginning of

00:47:50.360 February. And the first thing that I did, there was media lined up everywhere. And I said, media,

00:47:55.060 this is for you. You need to come to Christ. And I preached the gospel. If you, you know, if you're

00:48:00.800 bound, you are bound in your sin. You're in rebellion against our Lord. And I preached just

00:48:06.160 a very clear, straightforward gospel message, calling them to come to Christ. And I think

00:48:11.040 that's where, if we're going to talk about a top down, we have to be very clear that we're not just

00:48:16.500 here to write laws. We're writing laws that are orienting us to the lawgiver, but we can only

00:48:22.740 rightly orient ourselves to the lawgiver, not by external law, but by the internal submission to

00:48:28.480 the lawgiver and trust in him and receiving his grace, receiving the Lord Jesus, and then living

00:48:35.380 our lives in accordance with him. External law should match the internal law of the heart so

00:48:41.260 that the conscience and the law of the land are in union. They're in unity. We're not warring

00:48:46.500 against those things. So yeah, right wing, right wing boost. You know, they sent the gospel message

00:48:53.820 out to however many hundred thousand, and that's, I think, the very nature of what God is doing

00:49:00.560 right now. I think he's going to raise more people up, and if and when he does, I just want

00:49:06.080 to encourage you, let the gospel be at the front, and yes, do your job, and write your laws, and go

00:49:12.640 into the statehouse, and make good, strong biblical arguments, and write good law,

00:49:21.080 but have conversation

00:49:23.140 and be in the public sphere

00:49:25.740 if they stick a mic in your face

00:49:27.200 tell them about the goodness and the glory of Christ

00:49:29.860 Amen

00:49:30.800 Amen

00:49:31.860 Here's another question

00:49:36.060 about distinctions

00:49:37.960 theonomy, seeing

00:49:39.100 sometimes you have to

00:49:41.840 plan a conference

00:49:43.460 and plan a panel

00:49:46.340 just so that you can get Doug

00:49:48.020 to answer your personal questions

00:49:50.080 And so that's, you know, so indulge me.

00:49:53.240 But, you know, I've waited a long time for this.

00:49:54.580 No shame, Joel.

00:49:55.540 No shame.

00:49:56.600 But it seems like one of the other distinctions,

00:49:59.460 correct me if I'm wrong on this,

00:50:00.520 but would be, so top down, bottom up,

00:50:02.200 another one would be, what about timeline?

00:50:04.280 Like I think sometimes,

00:50:05.600 and this is less of a theonomy thing,

00:50:07.220 although certainly they overlap,

00:50:08.620 but more of an eschatology thing,

00:50:10.600 a post-millennial thing.

00:50:11.800 I think, Dusty, you're post-millennial, right?

00:50:14.060 Yep.

00:50:14.320 So all five of us are post-millennial.

00:50:16.180 know um but it it does sometimes seem like there's there's a crew that's like uh we will have a

00:50:23.300 christian nation in 5 000 years you know and then and then a lot of the christian nationalists one

00:50:28.940 of the things that i appreciate i'm not saying i agree i'm post-millennial right so i think if you

00:50:35.060 have a different eschatology god bless you you're wrong you know as in texas we say god you know

00:50:39.080 god bless your heart you know but um but what i appreciate though is the immediacy that um you

00:50:45.720 There's this sense of maybe 50 years and not 5,000.

00:50:48.640 Stephen Wolfe says, why not now?

00:50:50.060 If you have power, then why not exercise it now?

00:50:56.020 And I think that that's great.

00:50:59.120 And I think that when you enroll in a math class,

00:51:01.960 the first thing you encounter would be math problems.

00:51:06.700 If you're a post-millennialist,

00:51:08.820 the first temptation you're going to encounter is post-mill problems,

00:51:11.860 which manana you know the kingdom is going to come sometime and we don't have to worry about it

00:51:17.580 that is the temptation of the post-millennialist the pre-millennialist is tempted to think it

00:51:23.200 doesn't do any good what no matter what we do it's all going to blazes um so but everybody's

00:51:28.200 got their temptations and i i think that anybody who has authority and power and wields it for good

00:51:34.580 immediately should be applauded, supported, prayed for. I happen to think it's not going to take

00:51:42.280 as deep root as it's going to for hundreds of years, but that's no excuse to avoid doing the

00:51:50.480 good you can now. As the great theologian Shia LaBeouf says, don't let your dreams be dreams.

00:51:57.840 yesterday you said tomorrow tomorrow you'll say you know some other time why not today you know

00:52:06.120 just do it uh and so if if God puts you in that position just do it let your dreams be reality

00:52:14.300 he's he's causing that so plant your seed water it and let him bring the growth and he might bring

00:52:22.320 the growth today because it's a very fast rising seed and you don't forget about working on all the

00:52:28.100 other seeds in the garden too gk gk chesterton said the one taste of paradise on earth is to

00:52:35.560 fight in a losing cause and then not lose yep yep amen i'll have what dusty's having

00:52:42.640 it's fantastic i feel like just the vicinity is okay yeah there it is um squirrely joe's

00:52:50.060 that's christened him's coffee right there um eric or brian either but uh the idea of the

00:52:56.760 we could win and maybe we could win soon what do you think any thoughts on that or or if you don't

00:53:03.820 have something on that other distinctions in this theonomy versus cn slash where do we overlap where

00:53:09.240 is it different what what do you think i mean personally i think a lot of this stuff we get

00:53:13.460 into like the timeline questions and how much change could happen i think a lot of that is

00:53:18.760 actually beyond us, right? Like, so when I think about this, I'm like, well, have I seen change in

00:53:23.140 Ogden? Can I pastor my people? Can I love my family, right? And can I support Dusty? Can I

00:53:28.240 support that cause? So a lot of it is like, well, that's up to the Lord, right? But can you put

00:53:34.380 your shoulder behind the plow? So I think a lot of it, for most people, it's like, you're probably

00:53:38.640 not going to run for office, right? But I know that like with Dusty, like, but we can pray for

00:53:43.620 in Sunday worship, like we can do that.

00:53:46.680 We know the Lord answers prayer.

00:53:48.540 He answers the prayers of a righteous man, right?

00:53:50.760 So I think some of it is not to overcomplicate it.

00:53:54.340 You do whatever you can do today

00:53:55.880 with all your heart, with all your might,

00:53:58.640 and you pray and you see what the Lord does.

00:54:01.680 Yeah, that's right.

00:54:02.820 We're always trying to keep our eye

00:54:05.340 on 500 years down the road and five minutes from now.

00:54:10.480 And those aren't mutually exclusive goals.

00:54:12.540 You set your compass bearing for a real long way off, and you're going to have to pass through a lot of steps on your way there.

00:54:20.800 And to God be the result.

00:54:22.680 Like, amen.

00:54:23.720 God's going to be the Lord of those results.

00:54:26.180 And it just is the case that the world is very difficult to predict.

00:54:30.840 If it was easy to predict, I would have bought Bitcoin like a long, long time.

00:54:37.980 Obviously, you know, I'd have a whole lot of Bitcoin, and I'd have a yacht.

00:54:41.540 and Joel Webin would be, you know, invited on

00:54:43.980 and you could do your podcast on the yacht.

00:54:45.420 But I think it's, you see how quickly things can turn?

00:54:49.580 Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

00:54:50.440 Yeah, woulda, coulda, shoulda.

00:54:51.820 But I mean, Barack Obama ran on a non-pro gay marriage platform

00:54:58.040 like in what, 2008?

00:55:01.980 And here we are today.

00:55:03.720 Like things can change fast.

00:55:06.060 And not only fast in the wrong direction.

00:55:09.540 That's correct.

00:55:10.240 And that's something that I think Wilson and you guys with Kings Hall and others, Rigney, have been really helpful with was thinking of like Constantine.

00:55:18.820 It's like, yeah, sometimes the Christians in the province of God all of a sudden find themselves with immense affluence and influence and power, and they weren't quite ready for it.

00:55:27.020 So maybe it's not just LARPing.

00:55:28.460 Like, you know, with our congregation, I've preached this sermon like almost back to back twice, but I didn't title this, but essentially the title was, you got to LARP before you can fly.

00:55:37.500 Like, sure, there is something to be said for cosplaying and LARPing and grifting

00:55:41.440 where the person has no inward pure motive.

00:55:44.760 You know, there's no desire for God's glory or his kingdom or his, you know, none of that.

00:55:49.180 And so, I mean, it's strictly, you know, it's a Judas type thing.

00:55:51.700 He's helping himself out of the money bag.

00:55:53.020 That's it.

00:55:54.060 But any time you've gotten way off the rails and you try to make a change, 0.73

00:55:59.900 it's going to look silly at first.

00:56:02.180 You know, if, yeah, any kind of major change.

00:56:05.920 If a guy's an alcoholic, you know, he's been drinking, you know, a fifth every single day,

00:56:10.500 and now all of a sudden he's going to try to get in shape.

00:56:12.760 He's going to try to be healthy.

00:56:13.660 He's going to try to get a job.

00:56:15.200 It'd be real easy for anybody who knows him to say, you know, like, you know, cosplay, LARPer, grifter, you know.

00:56:22.780 It's like, or repenter.

00:56:24.340 And repentance, initial repentance, when you're already way off the rails for an individual or society,

00:56:30.920 at least the beginning steps, even, you know, like Paul Washer talked about this.

00:56:34.760 i remember hearing this clip i was like thank goodness because every paul washer i was like

00:56:38.040 i'm going to hell for sure and then you know and then i heard this one and you know he was talking

00:56:42.280 about the kernels of repentance and i mean to hear it from anybody would be encouraging but to hear

00:56:47.140 from paul washer i was like like that guy would not i mean this guy does not preach soft sermons

00:56:52.320 like i probably hurt him to preach this sermon and like so like you know it's good and you know

00:56:56.280 you can take it to the bank but he was just saying that if our repentance is perfect if we could

00:57:00.380 achieve perfect repentance guess what we wouldn't need repentance because we could achieve perfect

00:57:04.160 living the only reason you don't live the reason you don't obey perfectly is because you have

00:57:08.000 imperfect faith and imperfect repentance because your repentance is not perfectly full and your

00:57:13.180 faith is is not always there but at times wanes that's the whole reason you said and um so then

00:57:19.540 what what does repentance look like in in vitro you know what is what does repentance look like

00:57:26.040 in its kernel stages and what does that look like at a corporate level as a society what would it

00:57:31.180 look like for the beginning of America to repent. Like, it might look like women making sourdough 1.00

00:57:38.420 and wearing, you know, sundresses. And that's why I want to say, okay, there, now there can be a 0.98

00:57:43.400 grift side of this. That is true. But I don't want to blanket, I want to be careful not to disparage

00:57:48.140 this. And then as it pertains to, you know, the Constantine kind of moment where all of a sudden

00:57:51.960 you're thrust into power, that's why, you know, back to theonomy and God's law and all these kinds

00:57:56.300 things in Christian nationality. No, it's not 0.99

00:57:58.340 LARPing to talk about

00:57:59.780 if the Presbyterians get power, what

00:58:02.280 will they do with the Baptists?

00:58:04.120 That's not a silly conversation.

00:58:06.440 That's to make sure the Baptists don't get drowned. 0.89

00:58:08.440 Sit them down and talk to them. 0.69

00:58:10.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:58:12.160 Next to a lake.

00:58:13.740 We complain. No, Eric, no.

00:58:16.500 We'll complain about...

00:58:18.300 Well, so far, it looks like, if anything, 1.00

00:58:20.520 the Baptists are going to be... 0.59

00:58:21.540 You're outnumbered 10 to 1. 1.00

00:58:23.180 They're going to sit us down.

00:58:24.940 Yeah, exactly. 0.99

00:58:25.560 I saw Dusty doing push-ups. 1.00

00:58:27.400 I'm going to dry off your children.

00:58:31.380 It's too late.

00:58:32.280 Too late, Dusty.

00:58:34.120 In my mind, they're metaphorically wet.

00:58:36.140 They're still wet, yeah.

00:58:37.560 The sprinkling has happened, Dusty.

00:58:39.520 It can't be undone.

00:58:41.000 Remember the baptism. 0.92

00:58:41.720 They're going to convert at some point, Lord willing,

00:58:43.840 and then they can truly be baptized.

00:58:47.720 All right, that's enough.

00:58:49.240 But with all that being said, the point is sacralism, right?

00:58:54.420 Like James White has talked about this.

00:58:55.880 James White is awesome.

00:58:56.700 Praise God for him.

00:58:58.000 And it's, yes, like the little, the hole, you know,

00:59:01.520 and you're down there and Luther,

00:59:03.740 I think it was Luther, it was like next to him, right?

00:59:05.960 The Baptist that was kept in a hole.

00:59:07.400 Was it Luther that was in the same room?

00:59:09.620 No, not in the same room.

00:59:11.440 I think it was the same castle.

00:59:13.440 But close.

00:59:14.120 Yeah.

00:59:14.560 And he knew, and he knew.

00:59:15.860 And so then how do you,

00:59:18.840 I think it's advantageous to not figure out Christendom

00:59:23.220 once it already happened so let's play this out for a minute so if if someone said i'm afraid

00:59:29.600 that if christian nationalism took you guys would take power and then you'd start persecuting other

00:59:35.720 christians you know the presbyterians persecuting the baptists and i'd say okay let's say we're not

00:59:41.940 going to do that but let's say that your nightmare came true and we were doing that we were persecuting

00:59:47.880 baptists would that make jesus angry or happy angry okay i think we'd all agree that would

00:59:56.600 make him angry so do you think that we should modify our behavior down here so that we don't

01:00:01.740 make jesus angry yeah and i said well welcome to christian nationalism

01:00:06.200 we've come full circle so you think we should do more of what jesus likes

01:00:14.420 I too am a Christian nationalist

01:00:16.340 and Stephen Wolf

01:00:18.420 took 400 pages to write that

01:00:20.200 do what Jesus likes 1.00

01:00:21.540 Christian nation gooder than transing kids 1.00

01:00:24.140 that's it

01:00:24.680 any thoughts Brian or Eric

01:00:29.140 any other

01:00:31.900 last distinctions with the CEN

01:00:34.220 versus the Reconstructionist

01:00:36.440 I would say it's not a versus thing

01:00:38.200 no it shouldn't be but I just

01:00:39.720 I hear it framed sometimes

01:00:41.420 I believe that

01:00:43.420 we're dealing with, if God grants us any measure of success, as I believe he is in the process of

01:00:50.960 doing, it's going to involve millions of people. Right. Right. And, and among these millions of

01:00:57.620 people, there will be all sorts of differences, all sorts of different emphases. And you can thank

01:01:04.320 God for the, man, I wouldn't have done it that way, but I like their way of doing it better than

01:01:10.320 my way of not doing it and i think we can we can give thanks to god that christian nationalism

01:01:17.800 is a national conversation or a worldwide conversation in some ways because the current

01:01:25.560 or the theonomist can look and say well we've been doing this for a long time uh we've had

01:01:31.600 westminster we've had the 1689 this is we've had various flavors of theonomy you guys are late to

01:01:39.300 the game, and they should probably be saying, great, what we've wanted for a long time is

01:01:45.040 actually a mainstream conversation. The guys who are late to the game, who are saying,

01:01:51.820 well, Christian nationalism, Christian nationalism, and they don't know a whole lot about historic

01:01:57.120 perspectives on theonomy or the law of God, they can look back and say, thank you. Thank you for

01:02:04.160 laying the groundwork so that both in, in, in right now we have, we don't have enemies of each

01:02:10.500 other, but we see the true and proper enemy that is the enemy of our souls, that ancient serpent

01:02:16.000 and who is devouring people and he need not divide us. So we need to be thankful for each other.

01:02:25.300 The, the new guys coming in should be thankful for the magisterial reformers,

01:02:30.240 the theonomists thank you for all the spade work you did and the old guard should be saying thank

01:02:36.740 you lord for the fresh blood thank you for this infusion of energy thank you for this opportunity

01:02:42.580 yeah so much so much of this is um it's being thankful that god is a god who seems to delight

01:02:53.000 in lots of differentness like he just does it constantly where there's differentness

01:02:58.320 and a lot of this i think the turmoil really does come down to turf war some of the time like turf

01:03:05.400 war of this ministry you know what is it their market share of this camp versus this camp donors

01:03:12.720 yeah donors and and and power and but there's something at the bottom of that that i think

01:03:18.640 sometimes gets overlooked and it's that turf wars aren't all evil in the sense that turf wars are

01:03:26.120 fought over convictions and you don't want somebody who you think is wrong to win the hearts

01:03:31.320 and minds of more people. So when you see somebody who's turf warring with you, it's good to stop and

01:03:38.180 say, they're really convinced that they're right about this and that I'm wrong about that. And

01:03:43.680 maybe have a charity to say, I'm actually going to start with the assumption until they prove me

01:03:48.520 wrong that they love the people and they don't want them to be discipled by what they see as

01:03:53.340 error. And if we could take some of the heat out of it and start with that kind of understanding,

01:03:59.180 I think that can help. And then that's not at all inconsistent with then saying,

01:04:03.420 and I'm going to flat out believe you're wrong. Here's the 17 point reason why. And I think that

01:04:10.340 your argument should fail and that my argument should win the hearts and minds of more people

01:04:14.640 than yours because yours happens to be wrong, right? So it's a really tough tightrope walk

01:04:19.740 because there's compromise for political reasons

01:04:22.420 that's a temptation there,

01:04:23.920 but you can't, I think you can't just start

01:04:26.900 with the presupposition,

01:04:28.900 well, there are two people in this debate,

01:04:30.880 me and people who agree with me, 1.00

01:04:32.440 and then idiots, 1.00

01:04:33.880 which is what the flesh wants to do 1.00

01:04:36.220 with literally everything.

01:04:37.800 Two ministers were having lunch one time,

01:04:40.720 and one of them said,

01:04:41.340 well, we both serve God, you in your way,

01:04:44.040 and I in his.

01:04:47.500 Exactly.

01:04:49.740 So it doesn't mean compromise.

01:04:51.840 I'm not saying compromise.

01:04:52.680 I'm not saying relativism,

01:04:53.640 but I'm saying there is such thing as Christian charity

01:04:56.420 and Christian charity is really, really important

01:04:59.440 for what Pastor Wilson's talking about.

01:05:01.180 And when we're all trying to get the right principles

01:05:05.720 landed the right way,

01:05:06.980 we do need to be careful not to see the hordes, 1.00

01:05:13.000 the Viking hordes approaching 1.00

01:05:14.280 and then turn around and stab everybody around me 1.00

01:05:19.080 constantly like that really is a temptation yeah the reason why we can have so much banter

01:05:25.960 on the platform and you guys are presbyterians clearly we're baptists the reason why we can

01:05:32.220 have the banter is because we know what time it is we're not fighting each other here

01:05:36.500 there was a time when we would fight over these things and there still are times you know

01:05:42.160 closed doors or in our churches, in our denominations. And it's still good to have

01:05:50.400 those things, but know what time it is. There's a great enemy and we need to be together on this

01:05:56.480 and fight it. Legalist was an elf and Gimli was a dwarf, but we're in the middle of Helm's Deep.

01:06:04.240 That's the situation we're in. Dr. Boot and I a while back, he was gracious enough to come on

01:06:09.740 the podcast, and we did an episode on baptism, and we just talked about how the sons of Issachar

01:06:16.100 know the times, and the debate about baptism, we don't want to make it trivial, because God's

01:06:22.400 word matters, and somebody's right, and somebody's wrong, and baptism, it's a sacrament, it matters,

01:06:26.340 but, you know, we were just talking about, you know, in some sense, you can track historically

01:06:34.540 within the church, when the Baptist, you know, kind of baptismal arguments were the fiercest,

01:06:42.060 they were, you know, they were, it was a luxury of Christendom. It was a luxury of the Christians 1.00

01:06:47.620 are winning. Like the, you know, like the Christian talking about turf wars, the Christians have like 1.00

01:06:52.720 a monopoly on all turf, you know, so like the Christians are in charge here. And so we can 1.00

01:06:57.500 afford to talk about, you know, baptism and strongly disagree. And there are just a lot of

01:07:01.520 churches, right? So it's like, you've got this good Baptist church and this good Presbyterian

01:07:05.540 church, and they're both across the street. And so, of course, naturally, if you're of 0.98

01:07:09.660 credo-baptist convictions, then you're going to go to the Baptist church. Whereas now,

01:07:14.280 part of the reason why I still have a position, but part of the reason why I've changed my

01:07:19.080 philosophy of ministry, not my theology, but my philosophy of ministry, my presentation

01:07:24.060 on baptism, I'll still tongue-in-cheek make a joke, but for the most part, people know I'm

01:07:28.020 joking, and I'm charitable with it, is because they don't have the option. There is not a

01:07:32.360 Presbyterian church across the street from mine. There is, not quite across it, but there are a

01:07:39.340 few, actually. But they closed for 16 months with COVID. They were woke with BLM. And so I've got

01:07:47.200 dear Presbyterian brothers and sisters who are like, we'd rather go to the Baptist church with

01:07:51.060 the spine than the Presbyterian church that folded like a cheap suit, you know? And that's

01:07:56.900 You just have to recognize that's a unique time.

01:07:59.960 So my position is not baptismal catholicity, lowercase c.

01:08:05.400 I would not put that as my position for all of the gospel age.

01:08:09.640 I wouldn't write that down in a book and recommend that to our spiritual sons 500 years from now

01:08:15.920 if Christendom is shining, you know, like Pilgrim's Progress, you know,

01:08:19.400 like if religion is walking in her glass slippers. 0.93

01:08:22.720 And I would say, well, in that case, yeah, the Baptist, get in your Baptist church,

01:08:26.700 presbyterian get in your presbyterian church and still you know have a cigar night you know on

01:08:30.900 monday but but on sunday worship in your respective places but that is not that's just not where we

01:08:36.560 are if i could throw one historical note in in here because we're sometimes the victims of

01:08:42.460 anachronistic thinking because we don't realize that one of the features of the older christendom

01:08:48.040 was that we we are so used to the voluntarist system of denominations where you just choose

01:08:54.620 where you want to go. And it's sort of baked into our American DNA. And I think it's an upgrade. I

01:09:00.360 like that. But in the older Christendom, there were all sorts of things that were tied together.

01:09:07.820 So baptism was tied to things like citizenship. You know, it wasn't just a denominational

01:09:13.860 distinctive. And I was just a year or so ago in Boston, and they've got statues. There's a statue

01:09:21.380 I saw it to a Quaker woman who was executed in Massachusetts back in the 17th century.

01:09:27.820 And you think, oh, man, you know, good grief, why'd they have to do that?

01:09:31.440 And I'm not saying it was good that they did that, but it's anachronistic thinking. 1.00

01:09:36.140 These Quaker women would parade through Boston naked, and they would try to exile them, and they'd keep coming back. 1.00

01:09:44.360 They wouldn't, they were just being pestilent. 1.00

01:09:47.880 It was a legal, it was not just a theological denominational thing.

01:09:53.980 It was a legal sort of thing.

01:09:57.460 The Salem Witch Trials, the charter of Massachusetts expired.

01:10:03.880 And they didn't have any legal justification for functioning.

01:10:09.520 They sent someone back to England to get the charter renewed.

01:10:13.160 And while he was gone, the Salem Witch Trials broke out.

01:10:17.880 And it was a local trial in Salem, and it was a hysteria and a bad business.

01:10:24.940 And then when the charter came back, they had a legal government again.

01:10:29.260 The Puritan ministers of Massachusetts applied to the governor to have the witch trials suppressed.

01:10:36.640 So the Puritans suppress the witch trials is not the headline you've read.

01:10:41.800 There was a lot of legal background that we have forgotten.

01:10:47.220 So when you hear Christians fighting Christians, sometimes it was all jumbled up with national interests and legal issues.

01:10:55.840 And it was not just what we would have today.

01:11:02.260 Joe, you said something that I want to see if you can clarify.

01:11:06.660 It sounded like you were trying to wash over some of the distinctions of denominations at this time.

01:11:17.580 I'm not for that.

01:11:19.500 Is that what you were saying?

01:11:21.000 No, baptismal Catholicity, not washing over the distinctions of denominations,

01:11:25.160 but saying that I do think that there is a case to be made for something like the CREC

01:11:33.240 that would accommodate both positions on mode of baptism at this juncture.

01:11:40.180 I don't know, like if it was the 1700s, it may not be the position.

01:11:47.360 But John Bunyan's church did it.

01:11:49.940 John Bunyan was a Baptist, and he would receive into membership people

01:11:56.360 who were baptized in infancy, provided they were godly Christians.

01:11:59.840 So this division, this issue is not a new one.

01:12:06.060 It goes all the way back.

01:12:07.600 So there's a hardline Baptist position.

01:12:12.120 There's a more ecumenical position represented by Bunyan.

01:12:15.080 And on the other side, on the Presbyterian side, you've got the same hardliners.

01:12:19.960 Nope, you've got to do it this way.

01:12:22.480 And in our church, we have a baptismal cooperation agreement where the church is Pato-Baptist.

01:12:28.460 we subscribe to the Westminster Confession

01:12:30.660 but we receive Baptists

01:12:33.040 into membership and good standing

01:12:35.100 and we defer to the parents' understanding

01:12:37.220 of baptism

01:12:37.780 so when their child professes faith

01:12:41.020 then we baptize them

01:12:42.500 the tough thing with that is that baptism

01:12:44.460 unfortunately, just logically

01:12:46.960 the way that it plays out is not

01:12:48.560 a two-way street as much as it is a one-way

01:12:51.220 stream, it is much easier for the Presbyterian 1.00

01:12:53.140 practically to accommodate the Credo Baptist 1.00

01:12:54.980 that's why we do it 1.00

01:12:56.600 Go ahead, Dusty. I know you have a point to make.

01:12:59.840 We go the easy route.

01:13:01.940 So just in case people are thinking, oh, no, they are moving to that fight between Baptists and Presbyterians and making it, they're forgetting what time it is.

01:13:11.160 We're not. We've moved into it in an internecine fight.

01:13:16.760 But we're still willing to say we are willing to fight for the Southern Baptist Convention.

01:13:23.520 We are willing to fight for a conservative Presbyterianism.

01:13:27.180 We're willing to fight for a CREC.

01:13:29.600 We're willing to fight for those things, but we're also willing to fight together for much greater fights as well. 0.87

01:13:37.500 We want to retain the denominations.

01:13:39.420 We want to retain the infrastructures.

01:13:42.060 We want to conserve.

01:13:43.200 We want to criticize.

01:13:44.240 We want to correct and create where we need to.

01:13:46.860 but we at the same time need to come together to fight this serpentine theocracy that's been

01:13:54.880 pouring across our country all right this is maybe my my last question for you guys

01:13:59.500 um another thing that i've heard people say is well you know the christian nationalist guys are

01:14:04.560 against uh you guys just don't seem like you just don't love our sacred democracy enough you know

01:14:11.200 or you're just you know my constitution you're just not constitutioning hard enough you know what

01:14:16.040 What if we try classical liberalism even harder?

01:14:19.300 You know, have we thought about that?

01:14:20.600 And so what do you guys, I have my answer for that.

01:14:24.900 I like the Constitution.

01:14:25.960 I would tell them to read a book.

01:14:27.700 Read a book.

01:14:29.620 There's just flagrant historical ignorance.

01:14:33.080 Because what we are talking about is restoring the Constitution,

01:14:37.520 returning to the way it was.

01:14:39.820 People think that James Madison,

01:14:42.640 they've confused

01:14:44.840 Earl Warren with James Madison

01:14:46.460 so the changes

01:14:49.000 that were brought about in the mid

01:14:50.900 20th century that were ushered

01:14:53.000 in was a subversion of

01:14:55.220 the constitution

01:14:56.300 it was a subversion of our constitutional

01:14:59.100 way of governing ourselves 1.00

01:15:00.520 which was explicitly Christian

01:15:03.260 there was a supreme court decision

01:15:05.060 in 1892

01:15:06.520 exquisitely named

01:15:09.120 Holy Trinity versus the United States of America

01:15:11.420 that's on the nose man they should have just looked at and i won't go into the setup of the

01:15:19.880 case but they decided the case rightly it was a church named holy trinity against the united

01:15:24.600 states they decided the case rightly and then justice brewer the chief justice said and while

01:15:30.220 we're on the subject let me tell you why america is a christian nation this is the majority opinion

01:15:35.380 In 1892, and that year was closer to the year of my birth than this year, today, is to my birth.

01:15:44.660 It wasn't that long ago.

01:15:46.740 You might say, well, how old are you?

01:15:50.400 You'd have to do a lot of math to figure that out.

01:15:52.280 Well, 1892, basically, that was one lifetime.

01:15:57.460 One lifetime before my birth.

01:16:00.660 1892, we're a Christian nation.

01:16:02.340 and we functionally were down until the mid 20th century and and we're talking about getting back

01:16:11.120 to that i'll take that and let's take take that as a platform and work from there uh and people

01:16:16.660 say no you're destroying democracy you're destroying the constitution by what returning to it

01:16:22.740 right so i think it was madison that talked about our constitution if it's not upheld uh and there's

01:16:32.120 others who said something similar, but it can become just a parchment barrier. It depends on

01:16:38.940 the will of the people. So if the people are grounded in the Christian tradition, then that

01:16:47.520 parchment barrier is thick. It's meaningful. It matters because the standard matters in the hearts 0.74

01:16:56.400 in the minds of the people, but it becomes just a paper, like tissue paper, parchment barrier,

01:17:02.400 if the morality of the people has slidden far away from Christian morals, and now you just

01:17:09.860 have whatever, and we don't have a standard. John Adams, our second president, said,

01:17:16.100 our constitution presupposes a moral and a religious people. He said, it is wholly unfit

01:17:21.800 for any other.

01:17:23.360 And that's true.

01:17:24.560 And I think one of the interesting things

01:17:27.160 is, shameless plug, Kelly,

01:17:29.520 that if you look at the spirituality

01:17:33.540 or the cosmology that's starting to rise

01:17:37.960 among our, at least in America,

01:17:42.780 they're looking towards spiritual things

01:17:45.440 far more than they have been for years.

01:17:48.700 If you've got Joe Rogan,

01:17:50.200 who's clearly working on psychedelics and that those psychedelics are bringing him closer to a

01:17:56.900 spiritual reality than and even him saying we need Jesus and not not saying that really tongue in

01:18:03.520 cheek he's leading in and saying we need Jesus and you've got like even if he doesn't believe in

01:18:07.480 him he's like somebody needs Jesus yeah maybe not me but you need Jesus yeah Jordan Peterson

01:18:12.040 even Graham Hancock talking so much about the spiritual I think what you're seeing with the

01:18:19.780 popularity of of podcasts and um that are really talking about this um that we're we're we're

01:18:31.320 horseshoeing you know we're going back to this pharmakeia and and really tapping into the

01:18:36.820 spiritual nature and i think that's why haunted cosmos has become i was gonna say somebody's

01:18:41.020 been listening to haunted cosmos yeah cosmos thanks he corrected our pronunciation based on

01:18:46.540 the greek but i said it's the same reason i don't walk into a restaurant and say i would like

01:18:50.840 an extra tortilla with my burrito so you actually do say that though at chili's at chili's he says

01:19:01.020 it at chili's he doesn't even go to the taqueria he goes to chili's and says that so well yeah i

01:19:09.700 I mean, intelligent guy, great restaurant.

01:19:13.640 Did all you guys read Age of Entitlement, Christopher Caldwell?

01:19:18.340 Yeah.

01:19:18.840 Yeah.

01:19:21.900 Who's read in the audience?

01:19:23.300 Who's read Christopher Caldwell, Age of Entitlement?

01:19:26.720 Raise your hand.

01:19:27.280 I'm just curious.

01:19:28.260 I'd highly recommend it.

01:19:29.540 I think it's really helpful.

01:19:30.240 His point, and I think it's the point that I would make

01:19:32.960 and a lot of other guys would make,

01:19:34.740 is it's not that, oh, the Constitution is terrible.

01:19:38.600 the constitution's wonderful um it'd be great if we still had it yeah that's that's his argument

01:19:45.080 is just and and how do you get rid of something like because it's you know it's just too obvious

01:19:49.240 nobody's gonna it'll never it'll never work to just you know unless you're nicholas cage nobody

01:19:54.320 can just take you know the constitution and make it disappear but yeah but he had to give it back

01:19:58.380 joel right yeah right but this is what you can do what if instead of getting rid of the constitution

01:20:02.660 Or what if you could take a lens, a particular, you know, you know, a way of interpreting and and and you don't get rid of the Constitution, but you put a lens over the Constitution that becomes the de facto Constitution to where for all intents and purposes, functionally, you now have another, you know, another binding document.

01:20:23.700 When I was reading that book, Age of Entitlement,

01:20:26.920 he was throwing hand grenades every direction.

01:20:30.020 And I was reading this, and I looked at the spy, and who published this?

01:20:34.820 I know, it's pretty bold.

01:20:35.900 Well, Claremont.

01:20:37.160 And I thought, what's going on over there?

01:20:40.660 And this is another harbinger of people are saying out loud

01:20:45.700 things that they never would have said out loud 40 years ago.

01:20:50.600 And we're able to talk to this – if we'd been talking like this in the 70s, there would have been 20 of you.

01:21:01.320 This is a very different time.

01:21:04.800 I do wonder, to your original question, the people have some discomfort.

01:21:11.220 I don't even remember what it was.

01:21:12.320 To worship our sacred democracy.

01:21:15.140 And I do think there is at least a portion of the Christian nationalist conversation that is willing to say, maybe we're too pluralistic from the foundation, even from the beginning.

01:21:28.720 Maybe there's a little bit too much enlightenment.

01:21:31.420 Maybe there's a little bit too much sprinkled in of that, even as much.

01:21:35.820 And the upgrade from today to the original thing would be, you know, miles and miles better.

01:21:40.920 but i do think that there is a willingness and maybe that's where some of this pushback comes

01:21:44.600 with as well for people to say yeah but maybe there was a little bit too much deism and maybe

01:21:50.320 there was a little bit let's not to gloss over all the disagreements and you know maybe maybe

01:21:56.860 we do want to say that there is first table of the law type of not that there wasn't a lot of

01:22:05.080 that going on but is that part of this so um yes there were there were deistic currents

01:22:10.960 but jefferson and franklin were probably the only um father founding fathers who were toying with

01:22:18.220 deism and they were both very bad deists um because they believed that god intervened in

01:22:24.120 human affairs but they were liberals and affected by the enlightenment but at the constitutional

01:22:30.060 convention there were 55 men there and 50 of the 55 were orthodox trinitarian christians and

01:22:37.720 jefferson was in france um at the time and basically it was overwhelmingly christian

01:22:44.260 with currents here and there um i'd recommend um if you want a real bracing reads go back and read

01:22:52.320 the early rush duty um this independent republic which i i've been going back and reading him again

01:22:58.360 And I just finished this Independent Republic again.

01:23:01.800 It's a really bracing read.

01:23:04.300 And he pinpoints the areas where there was compromise,

01:23:07.540 where the founders left a few doors unlocked.

01:23:11.740 You left some doors unlocked in a bad neighborhood.

01:23:15.280 It's that level of...

01:23:18.280 Great.

01:23:20.300 All right.

01:23:20.960 Thank you, guys, for serving us this evening and all day.

01:23:24.420 And we look forward to tomorrow.

01:23:26.140 I know some of you guys, you brought your kids with you.

01:23:27.800 God bless you.

01:23:28.360 Thank you for bringing them and making it a family affair.

01:23:31.100 And so some of you are probably going to have to head out.

01:23:32.880 But real quick, before some of you dismiss,

01:23:35.160 and then as many of you who want, stay for the after party.

01:23:38.540 We do have one more sponsor that I want to make sure to get to.

01:23:41.400 So this is Nate from the Ezra Institute.

01:23:44.320 And you guys were free to go ahead and exit stage left or right.

01:23:48.540 Thank you. Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - April 09, 2024

THE CONFERENCE - Live Panel on Biblical Patriarchy & Christian Nationalism - Deevers, Wilson, Sauve, Conn, and Webbon

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