The NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Faeries ｜ The “Elemental Spirits” (Colossians 2_8)

00:00:00.000 King James VI, yes, that King James, the namesake for the King James Bible, wrote a small pamphlet

00:00:10.340 in 1597 titled, Daemonology, wherein he tries to classify and systematize our understanding

00:00:17.320 of all the fallen and unclean spirits that are creeping about in our world.

00:00:21.780 But he includes something that might surprise you, a whole section dedicated to things called

00:00:27.040 fairies.

00:00:28.480 Up to his day, and for long after him, everyone had a category in their minds

00:00:33.240 for a preternatural being that doesn't quite seem to fit with all of our other neat categories.

00:00:39.660 A trickster, a helper, a malicious enemy, a benefactor, and noble spirit who lives in fairyland.

00:00:46.920 Depending on when it was and where it was, everyone has figured fairies to be these things.

00:00:52.860 But what are they really? Or are they really at all? 1.00

00:00:56.500 And if so, how do we know?

00:01:00.320 I mean, what's the biblical, let's just start there.

00:01:02.100 What are a couple of things that if you were saying,

00:01:04.600 I'm building a biblical premise to allow for this category of fairies? 1.00

00:01:09.380 The first thing I would say, no, I do think this is important. 1.00

00:01:13.340 King James, believe me.

00:01:14.380 I'm kidding.

00:01:14.920 I'm going to give an asterisk and an answer.

00:01:17.000 The asterisk is, well, let me give the answer, then the asterisk.

00:01:20.020 The answer is that the Bible does not purport to contain an exhaustive knowledge of the

00:01:26.320 created order.

00:01:27.640 It doesn't.

00:01:28.500 And that's true for the spiritually created order and the physically created order.

00:01:31.180 I'm not saying that God doesn't know, but it does not present to us an exhaustive list.

00:01:34.720 No, it doesn't.

00:01:35.260 It's not a zoology textbook.

00:01:36.980 This is odd.

00:01:37.760 This is a fast, we know this.

00:01:39.140 Like there are animals that are real that are not mentioned in scripture.

00:01:42.880 And it's because scripture isn't trying to do that.

00:01:44.520 That's not what it's trying to do.

00:01:45.500 It's not giving us exhaustive knowledge of, you know, the, the math behind atomic fission or an

00:01:52.340 entire list of every mammal or anything like that. So that's true. We know that, but the asterisk

00:01:58.640 means that when we leave the pages of scripture and we go out into the world and we start doing

00:02:03.800 our investigation and our natural theology and things, we are always going to be looking to

00:02:07.900 avoid drawing conclusions that would be contrary to any known principle of scripture. In this area,

00:02:13.860 We have to be careful on that front.

00:02:16.480 This is similar, in my opinion,

00:02:17.700 to the question that theologians

00:02:19.980 have genuinely wrestled with,

00:02:21.260 which is, could there be intelligent life

00:02:23.060 on another planet?

00:02:24.540 It's a similar type of question.

00:02:27.020 Well, sure, I guess there could be.

00:02:28.740 It would introduce some theological questions.

00:02:32.380 Lewis solves this in his Heavens Trilogy,

00:02:34.860 what we call the Space Trilogy in Ogden,

00:02:37.020 that there are, and some of them aren't fallen.

00:02:40.520 Because the question immediately comes up,

00:02:42.200 Like, did Jesus have to go die on that planet too?

00:02:44.740 Right, exactly.

00:02:45.520 Or did God have to incarnate?

00:02:47.380 And part of the problem is like,

00:02:49.660 the incarnation is already difficult enough

00:02:52.000 in terms of the divine taking upon itself,

00:02:54.480 you know, the human nature in addition,

00:02:56.020 you know, but then to take a third nature

00:02:58.460 because it wouldn't be another Jesus.

00:03:00.320 It wouldn't be another Jesus.

00:03:00.860 It would be God taking on the nature of that thing.

00:03:03.320 Exactly.

00:03:03.880 So I've discussed this before.

00:03:05.380 The only thing that I could even conceive of would be,

00:03:07.440 you know, if there are,

00:03:09.680 like we're talking about not just life,

00:03:11.460 like animals, but sentient, you know,

00:03:13.480 human-like life on another planet,

00:03:16.140 they would either have to be unfallen 0.95

00:03:18.240 or fallen and damned. 0.61

00:03:21.400 Yeah.

00:03:21.920 Yeah, morally responsible creatures. 0.92

00:03:24.120 Right, but damned in the sense 0.90

00:03:26.000 that like Jesus isn't coming for them. 0.90

00:03:27.420 He's not coming for them.

00:03:28.620 And there is another option

00:03:30.120 and it's that we don't know

00:03:30.980 because God knows things we don't.

00:03:32.600 Right.

00:03:32.960 And God can do whatever he wants.

00:03:34.840 And maybe there's, not just maybe,

00:03:37.520 there are things that are far beyond our comprehension.

00:03:40.300 Yes.

00:03:40.600 So that's part of the answer, I think, first.

00:03:43.020 A similar category was the starting point

00:03:45.980 for the horribly faulty doctrine of purgatory

00:03:49.380 for the Roman church,

00:03:50.720 which is that they were noticing something

00:03:52.880 that seemed to be happening a lot.

00:03:55.100 And that is that their parishioners

00:03:57.040 were seeing the spirits of the dead

00:03:58.720 wandering in the meadows and the fields

00:04:00.700 after they had passed away.

00:04:03.100 And they were trying to come up with,

00:04:04.660 and it's gone by many names,

00:04:07.000 the processional or even the wild hunt.

00:04:10.020 in mythology. But it's this idea that they seem to see often around them, that the spirits of

00:04:18.240 the deceased are still lingering, and they can't explain why. And that was one of the seeds of the

00:04:25.660 eventual doctrine of purgatory. Okay, that's not a good way to respond. It's not a good way to do

00:04:30.720 theology. No, that's not how you do natural theology. That's not how you do theology proper.

00:04:36.160 They did that inappropriately,

00:04:37.840 but it wasn't inappropriate to notice something that was happening.

00:04:41.140 And we address at length spirits lingering after death in our ghost episode.

00:04:44.880 Yes, indeed.

00:04:46.220 That's not a biblical category.

00:04:47.860 So the category here is similar in that we don't actually have

00:04:51.440 a cut and dry chapter and verse where we can say,

00:04:54.700 look, it mentions fairies or some preternatural thing,

00:04:58.160 which preternatural is sort of in between. 0.98

00:05:01.520 It's natural in some sense, but it's also very much supernatural.

00:05:05.340 Right. But it, it sort of toes the line between both worlds and it's habsies. 0.93

00:05:09.860 So you, you helped, yeah, you helped me. So we, we began to delve into the fairy category 0.99

00:05:14.960 in the Bigfoot episode. And you, you mentioned something, Ben, that was really helpful for

00:05:19.840 me to see it. Just thinking about angelic beings, because we talked about angelic beings in our

00:05:24.080 angel episode. And so in the, in the angel episode, we talked about not all angels are the same,

00:05:29.140 you know, and, and the word angel, you know, if we're talking about angels as, as just a big

00:05:33.060 banner, you know, overarching category to encompass every kind of heavenly host, heavenly

00:05:37.420 creature of, then it would be, you know, cherubim and seraphim and the four living creatures

00:05:42.300 covered with eyes and six wings and Ezekiel's, you know, wheel conception with eyes within

00:05:47.120 and all these different things.

00:05:48.400 The 24 elders on thrones and the seven, you know, torches that contain the spirits of

00:05:52.720 God.

00:05:53.460 So that would be if we're using angel to mean every heavenly creature, but the word angel

00:05:58.120 actually just means messenger.

00:05:59.880 And so you could say there's angels and using that in the sense of heavenly creatures, but then there are angel angels and angel angels, meaning angels that are messengers.

00:06:11.300 And those angels tend to look like us, but all this is still in the heavenly creature category.

00:06:16.160 But what you introduced towards the end of the Bigfoot episode, as you started to tease the fairy topic, was, but how do we know that God has not also created angelic type beings, but apart from the heavenly location?

00:06:32.020 That from the beginning, they actually had not just that they would come like messenger angels

00:06:37.200 with momentary visitations to earth to bring a message, but that their proper abode,

00:06:44.300 their natural habitat was earthly because God is a compassionate God who cares for his image-bearing

00:06:48.560 creatures, man, but also as the Psalms say, have compassion on all he has made. And so

00:06:54.060 an angel of a particular forest or river or this or that.

00:06:58.380 We have heavenly-facing angels, man-facing angels,

00:07:02.680 and then what if there's also spiritual beings that are nature-facing?

00:07:07.620 The Bible doesn't forbid it.

00:07:09.420 It's not said explicitly.

00:07:10.780 It goes back to your disclaimer from the beginning.

00:07:12.700 But the reason that would be so radical,

00:07:14.800 and essentially this is an elemental spirit.

00:07:16.960 And it would be.

00:07:17.720 The reason that would be radical is because until yesterday,

00:07:21.160 when we had our discussion on angels at the time of recording,

00:07:24.880 every theologian has virtually just assumed or presupposed

00:07:28.160 that angels are pure spirit

00:07:30.540 as it's properly understood.

00:07:32.340 And so all of the language

00:07:33.500 regarding them is analogical.

00:07:35.180 That's been a big assumption.

00:07:36.940 Until yesterday.

00:07:37.860 Until yesterday.

00:07:40.860 That sounds like a...

00:07:42.340 I'm getting a little uncomfortable.

00:07:43.280 That's really cool.

00:07:44.180 I'm getting a little uncomfortable.

00:07:45.300 Like maybe we should come out

00:07:46.240 with some kind of reference Bible

00:07:47.880 for this view.

00:07:50.060 Maybe like a Scofield.

00:07:53.820 Boom.

00:07:55.020 That's what people, 1.00

00:07:55.980 that's what all of the Reformed Pop 1.00

00:07:57.240 is doing to us, right? 1.00

00:07:58.160 Exactly. So the reason that that would be a radical view to take, that an elemental spirit

00:08:04.600 who serves God by overseeing some geographical area or geographical entity like a river or a

00:08:11.140 forest on earth is because that would be preternatural. That would be a thing that

00:08:16.700 directly toes the line. It's not a messenger to man who sometimes intervenes and who sometimes

00:08:22.520 is visible and who sometimes... No, it would be a thing that is always in between the unseen and

00:08:28.500 the seen. So that would be a relatively radical thing, especially for moderns to conceive of.

00:08:34.620 But that's actually one of the four primary views of the fairy, is that all of them are

00:08:39.900 preternatural somehow. But the first view that's put forth, by the way, by the medievals,

00:08:44.920 and I'm paraphrasing Lewis in the discarded image when I'm saying all these,

00:08:48.280 but the first view is that they are somehow a third species of rational being distinct from

00:08:56.200 angels as we think of them and men assuming men are not pure spirit angels are pure spirit but

00:09:03.220 there's some other thing in the spectrum between us and them that's a rational being before god

00:09:08.740 that's responsible and for the record if you haven't listened to the angel episode definitely

00:09:12.740 I'm not sure if angels aren't pure spirit.

00:09:15.300 Right, right.

00:09:16.060 I think a major spiritual component, but yeah.

00:09:19.440 And then the second view is that they are angels,

00:09:23.520 purely pure spirit,

00:09:25.080 but who have been demoted for whatever reason.

00:09:28.700 And so the common justification for this view,

00:09:31.880 which I think is very bad,

00:09:33.580 is that they began to fall with Lucifer,

00:09:37.740 but then repented during the fall.

00:09:41.000 We're excited.

00:09:42.220 I made it up.

00:09:43.040 Okay, I didn't make it up.

00:09:44.700 This is the medieval.

00:09:45.480 The medievals made it up.

00:09:46.600 You said this about you because-

00:09:47.300 We're excited, crackpot.

00:09:48.180 Because it's not a good idea.

00:09:48.920 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:49.480 So the idea is that as they were,

00:09:51.740 and you have to,

00:09:52.800 if you've never read Paradise Lost,

00:09:54.500 this is how Milton imagined it.

00:09:57.800 And it's because the medievals imagined it this way,

00:10:00.200 is as the angels were being pushed from heaven,

00:10:03.040 as the stars were falling,

00:10:05.020 and the gates of heaven closed behind them,

00:10:07.500 some of the angels repented,

00:10:09.340 genuine repentance.

00:10:10.120 and they were in ashes and sackcloth.

00:10:13.600 And so they were not allowed into hell

00:10:16.060 because of their repentance,

00:10:17.620 but they could not go back into heaven

00:10:19.240 because they were no longer holy.

00:10:21.240 And so the gates of heaven were close to them.

00:10:22.980 The gates of hell were close to them

00:10:24.480 and they were kind of stuck in the middle, 1.00

00:10:26.560 hence a preternatural fairy.

00:10:27.820 Stuck in the middle of you. 1.00

00:10:29.340 And I don't like that.

00:10:31.040 You know what?

00:10:31.680 I'm going to be honest, Ben.

00:10:33.020 I'm going to rule that out of my personal.

00:10:35.300 But that's just-

00:10:35.960 But that was a real view.

00:10:37.180 That was a real view.

00:10:38.200 And then the third theory,

00:10:40.120 the third medieval theory

00:10:43.340 is that they were the dead souls

00:10:45.100 that were roaming the world.

00:10:47.020 Like what we talked about before

00:10:48.580 that eventually led to the purgatory.

00:10:50.680 No, no, no.

00:10:51.340 Actual human souls.

00:10:52.800 Dead saints.

00:10:53.400 Dead saints or reprobate 0.82

00:10:55.100 who for whatever reason

00:10:56.380 had to still roam the world 0.75

00:10:58.340 as part of their either purgatorial...

00:11:00.480 Joel's like, no.

00:11:01.060 Exactly.

00:11:01.580 Right.

00:11:02.100 Joel's like, just no.

00:11:03.320 But that was the third view.

00:11:04.220 As part of their either purgatorial penance or...

00:11:07.720 These were the medievals?

00:11:08.900 Yes.

00:11:09.140 Have they read a Bible before?

00:11:10.680 Yes, they have.

00:11:11.260 Well, some of them haven't.

00:11:12.360 Some of them haven't, actually.

00:11:14.600 A lot of them actually haven't to be fair.

00:11:16.500 Hence the Reformation I was seeing.

00:11:18.060 You just went full Mark Cuban.

00:11:19.760 But for that reason, I'm out.

00:11:21.180 I'm out.

00:11:22.160 Yeah, that's also a horrible view.

00:11:24.100 And then the last one is probably the safest,

00:11:26.180 which is that they are simply a category of angels who fell.

00:11:30.220 Love it.

00:11:31.080 That's what we need from you, Ben.

00:11:32.700 Give me a view. 1.00

00:11:35.500 Give me fairies or give me death. 1.00

00:11:37.000 Right. 1.00

00:11:37.260 Like, give me fairies without giving me heresy. 0.99

00:11:41.060 Right. 1.00

00:11:41.480 No, I 100% agree.

00:11:42.300 And if you can give that.

00:11:43.560 Ferrisy.

00:11:44.060 So I actually like it.

00:11:45.980 Fairy heresy is.

00:11:46.820 Goal achieved.

00:11:47.420 The fairy heresy.

00:11:48.600 Ferrisy.

00:11:49.040 Ferrisy.

00:11:49.860 Oh, wow.

00:11:51.060 That's what a ferris is.

00:11:52.280 Dude, maybe that's where the trademark. 1.00

00:11:53.400 That's a radical view of fairies. 1.00

00:11:54.560 Maybe that's where they got the name. 1.00

00:11:55.700 TM.

00:11:56.300 Trademark.

00:11:56.980 TM.

00:11:57.400 And by the way, I'm legally obligated to make the joke.

00:12:01.100 Okay. 0.85

00:12:01.340 when we say fairies we are not talking about elton john that you saw in concert right that's

00:12:10.120 a different kind of fairy right that one we're talking about fairies that are useful and is

00:12:15.060 sinful or is definitely fallen but they're active definitely fallen they're useful or or harmful 0.99

00:12:21.340 similar category trickster right totally sinful don't trust them stay far away don't seek out

00:12:27.320 their council yeah but you're describing elton john right now that is elton john i like a

00:12:32.800 concept flamboyantly dressed yeah well no so here's the interesting within those four they

00:12:37.300 like to dance in rivers well yeah within those four views of fairies you then have three you

00:12:42.620 then have three classes okay of fairies okay all right and this comes from nature

00:12:47.620 because people were witnessing these things so they claim and the three classes are the there's

00:12:53.400 the really low tier fairies that are almost purely malicious. 1.00

00:12:57.440 Right. 1.00

00:12:58.080 And they're the trickster, they're, you know, 1.00

00:13:00.740 the Pukwudgie type figures, all these things. 1.00

00:13:02.880 And we'll get into that later.

00:13:04.080 We'll just drop that word.

00:13:05.020 We'll just drop Pukwudgie and move on. 1.00

00:13:06.940 But so, and so they're not good. 1.00

00:13:10.160 Okay.

00:13:10.560 They're antithetical to the goals of men.

00:13:13.280 Then you have this middle class that's sort of like apathy.

00:13:17.040 But it bends towards malice.

00:13:20.420 So this would be, the example that I've heard 0.96

00:13:23.420 is this would be the seductress in the woods,

00:13:27.000 the Lamia figure from Greek mythology, 0.98

00:13:29.440 who is sort of a serpent, but also is genuinely a woman 0.93

00:13:33.060 and who wants to seduce men to steal their purity.

00:13:36.320 That seems not that neutral to me.

00:13:38.560 Well, but, yeah, well, nothing's neutral,

00:13:41.940 but the neutrality comes in, it's apathy, not neutrality.

00:13:46.160 So if a woman, if a member of this class is attracted to a human, 0.97

00:13:51.480 well, then they become malicious.

00:13:53.240 But otherwise, they don't concern themselves.

00:13:55.480 They're just like, ah, people could take them or leave them.

00:13:57.700 Unless you cross their radar.

00:13:59.440 Which is why a lot of the folklore contains the warning.

00:14:02.620 Don't talk about them.

00:14:03.700 Don't do anything.

00:14:04.640 You don't want to catch their interest.

00:14:06.060 Right, exactly.

00:14:07.120 And then the final class is the high fairy.

00:14:10.580 And this is what I like to imagine Tolkien had in mind.

00:14:12.820 And that's Elton John.

00:14:13.860 Yeah.

00:14:14.040 actually couldn't be further yes so the high the high fairy is uh what i like to think tolkien had

00:14:22.860 in mind when he was conceiving of the the high elves the eldar in middle earth because they

00:14:28.260 are apathetic towards men but if they ever do concern themselves with men it's overwhelmingly

00:14:33.500 positive are you a beef jerky enthusiast well then stop it seriously stop it because

00:14:40.900 Biltong is superior to beef jerky in every single way. It's a traditional South African meat snack,

00:14:48.140 but it's free from all the preservatives, the sugar, and the soy. It's like the Wagyu of jerky.

00:14:54.280 Now, here's the exciting news from Farmer Bills Provisions. Farmer Bills is introducing their

00:14:59.940 brand new product line for your enjoyment. We've got right here the traditional beef slab. You've

00:15:06.500 also got, if you want a smaller portion, you've got the slices. It's just as much meat, but you're

00:15:11.700 able to eat it in increments. This is for yourself as an individual, or maybe for you and your family,

00:15:16.920 your kids. Then you've got the meat sticks. This is what, if you're a working man, you want a snack

00:15:21.640 to keep in your pocket to eat, you know, before lunch or something like that, grab one of their

00:15:26.160 beef sticks and take it on the go. Lastly, you got to check out the tallow. For all the moms out

00:15:32.480 there. My wife, she swears by this. Many women in our church say that it's a fantastic product.

00:15:38.260 So don't waste any more time. Go to farmabillsprovisions.com today to support a Christian

00:15:45.200 owned small business. And while you're at it, go ahead and subscribe so that you can save on

00:15:50.900 multiple options and ensure that you and your family will never be without your favorites.

00:15:56.140 And the last thing is this, if you want to get 15% off your purchase, all you got to do is type

00:16:01.600 in the promo code WRITERESPONSE. Again, the promo code, type in WRITERESPONSE. So visit

00:16:08.480 pharmabillsprovisions.com today and get 15% off your purchase. 0.96

00:16:15.440 The word soap makes Christian soap. What makes our soap Christian? First and foremost,

00:16:21.820 it is because our soap is good soap, made exclusively from natural and organic ingredients.

00:16:27.040 In addition to making a good product, we also promote a good message.

00:16:32.780 Our bottles of soap aren't wrapped in heretical garbage.

00:16:36.000 They're wrapped in sound doctrine and the infallible truth of Scripture.

00:16:40.340 Lastly, we have a good mission.

00:16:42.820 At the Word Soap, 10% of all our profits go directly to the godly men and women at Abolitionist Rising

00:16:49.260 who are fighting to protect the lives of unborn children.

00:16:53.140 Our product is pure.

00:16:54.960 Our message is true.

00:16:57.040 and our mission is pleasing to Christ.

00:16:59.740 So join us.

00:17:01.060 Visit thewordsoap.com today.

00:17:03.620 Again, that's thewordsoap.com.

00:17:06.520 Everyone needs soap, so wash yourself in the word.

00:17:12.880 Who has provided these categories?

00:17:14.760 Medievals?

00:17:15.300 The medievals.

00:17:15.840 Are they?

00:17:16.280 Yes.

00:17:17.080 And C.S. Lewis has transcribed them.

00:17:18.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:19.320 There's just a problem with this view in general

00:17:21.520 is that it gives you a similar issue

00:17:24.180 in that if they are not holy and righteous,

00:17:27.040 right if they if they can sin and do occasionally sin which like the high elves do yeah in tolkien's

00:17:34.760 world or this neutral then they're either never they're not redeemable including that positive

00:17:41.100 category right not redeemable unless god takes on their nature too right and you have an incarnate

00:17:46.720 which we're of course that's just didn't no no no so that's one of my problems with this category

00:17:51.440 of saying that it's this kind of thing instead of that it's actually either just a fallen this is

00:17:56.640 why I like this. So I think that there's a way to have this category as a real category in nature

00:18:03.480 and in the unseen nature as well. That's, that doesn't break any rules that we know are there,

00:18:10.720 like what you're saying. And I think that the way to do that is to say, no, they were noticing

00:18:15.260 something. I think that there is something there that doesn't seem to fit as nicely with,

00:18:21.000 oh, it's just a demon. Right. Oh, it's clearly an angel. And I think that that category is a

00:18:25.220 combination of view number one and view number four, which is it's not really a third species,

00:18:34.020 a third intelligent species. I don't think that. But I do think that it's so different from our

00:18:41.900 normal conception of an angel that we would think like, wow, that seems like a third species.

00:18:46.260 So would you say that? And when I say, well, just real quick. So I think that it's a

00:18:50.380 preternatural, supernatural entity

00:18:52.820 that is placed over a geographic area.

00:18:56.680 That's what I think.

00:18:56.920 So categorically, hang on.

00:18:57.740 I have some questions, but go ahead.

00:18:58.740 Categorically, you would put it in the category

00:19:00.740 of angelic beings generally, as is colloquially common.

00:19:04.340 Fallen angel.

00:19:04.940 Fallen, and yet you're-

00:19:05.980 Well, some not.

00:19:06.800 But hang on, hang on.

00:19:07.600 Let me finish my question.

00:19:08.720 Because I think this is an important question.

00:19:11.000 We finished the question.

00:19:11.680 You've got, under the banner,

00:19:14.220 we colloquially call angels, angelic beings.

00:19:17.280 And yet, even if they're all fallen,

00:19:19.760 some of them would be,

00:19:21.620 you're recognizing gradations

00:19:23.320 within angelic ranks of fallenness.

00:19:26.120 Yes.

00:19:26.360 So that some of them are, 0.95

00:19:27.480 they're still fallen and damned,

00:19:28.680 but they're less malevolent.

00:19:29.940 Is that what you're saying?

00:19:31.740 No, if they're all fallen,

00:19:33.300 I think that we would have worse rivers in the world.

00:19:36.680 Well, what I'm saying is people are all fallen,

00:19:38.820 but they're not all equally sinful.

00:19:40.440 I see what you're saying.

00:19:41.020 So you might have an angelic being that's fallen 0.69

00:19:45.460 that is just absolutely like the equivalent of Pol Pot.

00:19:49.600 No, well, why are they all fallen?

00:19:52.160 I'm saying if amongst those that are fallen,

00:19:54.940 I'm asking you,

00:19:56.060 do you believe that there are those kinds of gradations

00:19:58.620 or are all fallen angels equally bad?

00:20:01.940 No, I think that the ones that are fallen,

00:20:04.600 and I don't think they're all fallen.

00:20:06.220 I don't think that.

00:20:07.260 But I think the ones that are all fallen

00:20:09.000 are serving the role that they've been given.

00:20:10.880 And so from our perspective,

00:20:13.500 We might perceive that as different gradations of malice,

00:20:17.400 but it actually, the ones that are fallen

00:20:19.560 all hate the image of God.

00:20:21.100 Right, they're all fallen.

00:20:22.380 They all share that just like all men who are fallen

00:20:25.460 are haters of God, haters of one another.

00:20:28.020 And yet there's Mother Teresa and there's Pol Pot.

00:20:30.700 All men are fallen, but you said,

00:20:33.460 but not all equally sinful.

00:20:34.680 But at the level of the heart,

00:20:35.560 we say that totally depravity,

00:20:36.720 they are all equally sinful.

00:20:38.180 But what we're saying is in terms of outward manifestations,

00:20:40.860 they don't do the most evil.

00:20:42.440 possible thing all the time. Yeah, one guy murders and another guy steals a candy bar.

00:20:46.140 Right. Level the heart in terms of rebellion, hostility towards God apart from salvation. Yes,

00:20:50.880 equal. And frankly, some of that is just a grace of God in not giving them the tools

00:20:54.540 that they would need to exercise the completeness of their depravity.

00:20:59.060 And I'm like a man, so a man in a, like what we were talking about yesterday. If you have a guy

00:21:04.440 who lives a mile away from his nearest neighbor and he has a wife and kids and he has a good job,

00:21:09.740 He's not going to be as evil as the guy who's desperate.

00:21:12.820 And both of them are non-believers.

00:21:15.040 Now they may, they are just as evil. 0.99

00:21:17.380 In the eyes of God, they both deserve damnation. 0.95

00:21:19.500 I don't think they're just as evil. 0.98

00:21:20.820 Well, no, no, no, no.

00:21:22.760 I think that-

00:21:23.540 In the eyes of God.

00:21:24.020 No, I don't.

00:21:24.860 I still think. 0.97

00:21:25.520 I think that Pol Pot is worse than the, 0.94

00:21:29.760 but the distinction is that the bar graph,

00:21:32.920 there is a genuine difference

00:21:34.420 and there will be in judgment and reward,

00:21:36.020 but that the gap between the least evil person

00:21:39.180 and God is still so great

00:21:40.500 as it's like the golf ball world thing.

00:21:42.880 Like the highest mountain to the lowest depth,

00:21:44.720 you won't even feel it.

00:21:45.560 Literally, that's all I mean. 0.99

00:21:47.280 What I'm saying is they both deserve damnation equally. 0.89

00:21:51.720 But their punishment will be different. 0.99

00:21:54.920 Yeah, like beating, severe beating.

00:21:57.500 Exactly, not all sin is equal.

00:21:59.560 It's all equal in its ability to eternally separate you

00:22:01.800 from the benevolent presence of God.

00:22:04.400 But it's, there will be,

00:22:06.340 there's a hierarchy of heaven, I believe,

00:22:07.760 hierarchy on earth, there's a hierarchy in hell.

00:22:10.000 But it is, they are equally,

00:22:12.320 the problem I think is the word evil.

00:22:14.060 They're equally, you know, the mass murderer

00:22:17.920 and the dude who helps old ladies cross the street,

00:22:21.180 but he's not regenerate.

00:22:23.100 Maybe evil is not the right word,

00:22:24.340 but they're equally, in their heart of hearts,

00:22:27.160 they both equally hate God.

00:22:29.780 The mind of, you know, Romans 8,

00:22:31.100 the mind of the sinful man,

00:22:32.060 It's not just indifferent or neutral or apathetic, hostile.

00:22:35.360 So they both are completely hostile towards God.

00:22:38.300 Meaning that if you could sit them down

00:22:40.560 and accurately describe to them,

00:22:42.100 not just some general notion of Jesus,

00:22:44.620 but the God of the Bible,

00:22:46.300 they would both, if they were being truthful,

00:22:48.580 they may not both say it.

00:22:49.500 One might have more self-control than it.

00:22:50.940 But if you could give them both a true serum,

00:22:53.100 give them an actual accurate depiction of Jesus,

00:22:56.620 they would both respond and say, I hate that guy.

00:22:59.620 Yeah.

00:23:00.700 Yeah.

00:23:00.960 But then the manifestations of that

00:23:02.740 will be very different in the world.

00:23:04.280 Yeah, yeah, 100%. 1.00

00:23:05.220 Yeah, one guy, I hate Jesus and I'll help old ladies. 1.00

00:23:08.300 The other, I hate Jesus and I'll kill people. 1.00

00:23:09.980 And so, you know, if you're a preternatural 1.00

00:23:12.080 being bound to a creek,

00:23:14.880 you're not gonna have that much opportunity

00:23:16.280 to wreak malice.

00:23:18.400 Gotcha. 0.99

00:23:18.820 Because you just got a creek.

00:23:19.600 You're literally, you're a creek, you know?

00:23:21.780 If you're a preternatural being 0.88

00:23:23.380 who lives in a forest in Mongolia

00:23:26.120 where no one ever goes,

00:23:27.180 well, you don't have that much opportunity

00:23:28.800 to wreak a bunch of havoc on people.

00:23:30.440 Gotcha.

00:23:30.960 Now, I also believe that not all of them are fallen, though.

00:23:33.420 Yeah, let's go.

00:23:33.920 So there might be a class of what we colloquially call angelic being

00:23:37.580 that is earth-focused, not fallen.

00:23:40.220 It's just doing its job.

00:23:41.480 Yeah.

00:23:41.820 It's just out there doing its job.

00:23:43.480 It's like, and this would be like, wow, this forest is quite pleasant.

00:23:47.060 Right.

00:23:47.360 You know, and then some places are like, suicide forest in Japan.

00:23:49.660 I'm never going there. 0.83

00:23:50.680 Yeah, suicide forest in Japan.

00:23:52.460 The Mountain of the Dead, Lord of the Rings.

00:23:56.200 And even in the pass.

00:23:59.060 Mount Shasta.

00:23:59.720 The Dyatlov Pass.

00:24:00.960 They've got that mountain of the dead, basically.

00:24:03.220 We've all been in situations, I think.

00:24:06.220 Places.

00:24:06.720 And I certainly have,

00:24:08.200 where we've been in geographic places,

00:24:10.780 maybe even where man cannot be seen.

00:24:13.580 There's not a structure.

00:24:14.840 It's just nature.

00:24:15.780 Where we have felt either good or bad.

00:24:18.180 And you're like, there's something.

00:24:18.980 And you have no reason other than the place that you're in

00:24:22.740 to explain it away.

00:24:23.420 Like, it's even beautiful.

00:24:24.980 It's not just because, oh, this is bad because it's a swamp.

00:24:27.440 This is good because it's a meadow.

00:24:29.040 but like there have been like where it's like this is visibly pleasant uh and i don't want to

00:24:35.780 be here inexplicable right this feels i feel like i'm in danger like existential dread something

00:24:41.060 here wants to harm me right right and that see this is really interesting to me because you were

00:24:47.500 saying you were saying that you want to and i think the reason you might want to do this is

00:24:53.700 because there's so much evidence of eyewitness and people seeing this kind of thing interacting

00:24:58.120 commonality of belief in it,

00:24:59.740 that you want to have a category

00:25:01.320 where you're not coming up with a third state of being,

00:25:04.440 a third species that's rational,

00:25:06.720 that ends up with all sorts of theological problems.

00:25:09.040 So you don't want that.

00:25:10.160 You don't want to just say it's nothing at all.

00:25:12.220 But this view would let you say,

00:25:14.980 it's just a class of spiritual being

00:25:16.860 under this genus of heavenly being

00:25:19.200 that not heavenly even in this case,

00:25:21.520 but it's just bound to earth on purpose.

00:25:23.260 It's angelic, but it's-

00:25:24.180 God created it for this.

00:25:25.360 And there's probably ones on Jupiter

00:25:27.060 and there's probably ones in stars distant

00:25:29.620 and God has them all over the...

00:25:31.260 Well, that's the thing is I would say

00:25:32.300 every star and planet would have one.

00:25:35.540 Like this is straight from Aquinas.

00:25:37.480 This is his moment.

00:25:38.580 This is the stars.

00:25:39.880 We've been preparing for this for years.

00:25:41.980 For years.

00:25:42.580 And right now I'm proud of him

00:25:43.680 because he's saying stars have angels

00:25:45.160 instead of stars.

00:25:46.900 Well, yeah.

00:25:47.720 I mean, I think that the symbolism of scripture

00:25:50.760 would clearly demand that we see stars

00:25:55.040 and think, look, the angels.

00:25:56.160 Look, Korya Kinn is real.

00:25:58.000 But I also think that within each star,

00:26:02.800 within each planet,

00:26:04.180 I think that,

00:26:04.940 and this is straight from Thomas Aquinas

00:26:06.420 and Albertus Magnus, by the way,

00:26:08.480 that there is some kind of spiritual

00:26:10.460 or preternatural intelligence placed there by God

00:26:13.400 to ensure that it's carried out properly.

00:26:16.700 We've got Ramendu.

00:26:17.340 Everything has a job.

00:26:18.780 Ramendu, Korya Kinn.

00:26:20.720 Exactly, yeah.

00:26:21.780 It's all in Lewis.

00:26:23.060 What do they teach these kids these things?

00:26:24.160 Every single thing. 0.62

00:26:24.820 The L deal. 0.95

00:26:25.800 This is the medieval point. 0.92

00:26:27.800 Every single thing that you see has a job.

00:26:30.760 And its job is to join in the symphony of creation

00:26:33.260 to sing proper notes to God

00:26:35.100 that over time will manifest itself

00:26:38.660 as this symphony that's beautiful.

00:26:41.680 Okay, it may seem discordial

00:26:43.140 when you're right there in it,

00:26:44.200 but if you zoom back.

00:26:45.220 Like a good composer,

00:26:46.640 God is using the jarring notes to do something.

00:26:49.820 Right.

00:26:50.260 They're not meaningless.

00:26:51.340 This is Tolkien.

00:26:52.300 Yeah, again, in Tolkien,

00:26:54.380 it's important to see Tolkien and Lewis and everybody else who has riffed on this idea,

00:27:00.100 they are riffing in on something that is biblical. They're riffing on something God actually did in

00:27:05.620 the world, hence why they're good stories. It's because they're echoing the story God is actually

00:27:09.800 telling in history. Judges 5.19 says that the stars fought against Cicera. Many, many examples.

00:27:16.240 But it's also a song. And so you're supposed to think, wow, the stars fought against us. Job 38,

00:27:21.180 God is asking Job, where were you

00:27:23.100 when I laid the foundations of the earth?

00:27:24.640 When the sons of God sang with the stars of the dawn.

00:27:29.220 That was before the stars were even made.

00:27:31.220 Real quick question.

00:27:32.000 So James B. Jordan talks about this,

00:27:34.960 but the sky was more active,

00:27:37.600 not just more visible because of not,

00:27:39.600 you know, big cities and lights and pollution

00:27:41.360 or this or that.

00:27:42.160 So certainly more visible. 0.83

00:27:43.160 Abraham goes out.

00:27:43.920 I mean, it's just like, bam, that's a lot of stars.

00:27:46.740 More visible, but actually more active.

00:27:48.600 So like Psalm 19, the, you know, the sky pours forth speech and there's the setting of the sun

00:27:54.660 and clouds and things like that. But when you think of like the Greeks, for instance, I mean,

00:28:00.180 they're surrounded, everybody's a barbarian except for them, you know, and whether or not they had

00:28:04.540 Moses, right? But, but another hypothesis is, you know, so maybe they actually had special revelation

00:28:11.140 and not just natural revelation. God has two books, you know, like special and natural. But

00:28:16.580 one argument is that God like actually was speaking more actively through the skies,

00:28:22.640 especially astronomy and the stars leading up to the birth of Christ, where we have another

00:28:28.780 star moving significant. And that it's not just like, we read that and it's like, but it's like,

00:28:34.720 no, stars actually moved more than they do now. Like that was actually a thing. And then big

00:28:40.140 movement, people knew. The Magi were paying attention. They were paying attention. They 0.77

00:28:46.560 Exactly. And that they weren't necessarily regenerate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't,

00:28:50.620 but they knew how to read the book of natural revelation. And the book of natural revelation

00:28:56.320 until, here's the whole point, until the completion of the book of special revelation

00:29:00.260 in God's grace and kindness, the book of natural revelation spoke more clearly than it does now,

00:29:05.800 because there's an expectation of God to believe his prophets, to believe the final word, which is

00:29:11.220 his son in these last days. But long ago, he spoke to our fathers, you know, in many ways,

00:29:16.680 many ways. But now he's spoken to us through his son. And so the same kind of argument that you

00:29:21.620 would make for cessationism and saying like, well, I don't know if the gift of prophecy is,

00:29:25.840 you know, continuing in the way that, you know, blah, blah, blah. Same thing like, and also

00:29:30.400 stars used to dance and now they're a little bit more still. What do you think about that?

00:29:36.180 I think that it makes sense. And I think that there's a really good reason for it.

00:29:39.900 And I think that Jesus, well, yes, but also since the enlightenment, we've been in a 300 year

00:29:46.920 decline where we have sought to muzzle the song of creation. You're right. Yeah. So our ears have

00:29:51.500 grown hard like our hearts. You're right. Yes. But we've also tried to silence the sky. You're

00:29:57.300 right. And so we've made a bunch of pollution that makes it harder to see. Yeah. Spiritual,

00:30:02.100 moral pollution. And that fogged ourselves. And the point is that matters. Yeah. And that matters.

00:30:07.800 that actually has more to do spiritually

00:30:10.020 than a lot of people give me credit for.

00:30:11.620 I don't know if I'd be comfortable

00:30:12.520 saying that the book of nature speaks less clearly.

00:30:15.400 I think there might be ways that,

00:30:17.600 like for example,

00:30:18.540 I don't know if I'd be comfortable,

00:30:20.200 and maybe I'd have to read the whole argument,

00:30:21.960 to say that one could not learn

00:30:26.560 to read those things just as clearly.

00:30:30.820 Well, yes, sir.

00:30:31.360 I guess the distinction would be that-

00:30:33.220 You see it today with animals and marriage.

00:30:35.140 It's not to say that nature doesn't still speak.

00:30:36.920 I would just say that the distinction is that the greatest event in history, like you said,

00:30:41.280 I do agree with that, was taking place.

00:30:43.720 It reminds me of Caspian and Prince Caspian when they're talking about,

00:30:48.100 or actually, I'm sorry, the last battle,

00:30:49.480 when the centaurs are talking about the portents and things in the skies.

00:30:54.260 And this is a very Disby view, kind of default Disby view that Lewis is putting forward.

00:30:59.100 Feel free to leave it out.

00:31:00.100 At the end.

00:31:00.760 But he's saying that all of the worst portents have been in the sky

00:31:06.760 for years now,

00:31:07.940 and they've been developing towards this.

00:31:09.900 They were reading it.

00:31:11.020 So was it more active

00:31:12.940 or was it just that the message was so great

00:31:15.820 that all of the biggest announcements were happening?

00:31:20.140 The biggest event in history is taking place.

00:31:21.940 So everything's coming together and saying,

00:31:23.220 but I think part of it like Jordan is trying to get at

00:31:26.420 is saying that not even just towards the event

00:31:29.280 and the importance of the event,

00:31:30.700 but just saying that because we have this conception

00:31:33.180 that a lot of times we think God is only doing something

00:31:36.740 under the old covenant, before the coming of Christ,

00:31:39.400 he was only doing something with his covenant people, Israel. 0.72

00:31:42.660 And the rest of the world was just damned. 0.96

00:31:44.760 They were just SOL.

00:31:48.120 It's like, okay, but I mean, Nineveh, an entire city,

00:31:51.400 arguably 120 to 500,000 people coming in one foul swoop.

00:31:55.940 The men of Nineveh will rise up on the day of judgment.

00:31:57.900 It seems like that's regeneration.

00:31:59.420 They're saved and all of them might want to hold onto that.

00:32:02.800 That's not just a Rahab or a Ruth.

00:32:04.580 That's like 500,000. 0.55

00:32:05.860 And the horse they came in on.

00:32:07.140 Yeah, so that's like 500,000 people coming to faith.

00:32:10.200 And then beyond that, and that's through special revelation

00:32:12.200 because that was a prophet speaking,

00:32:13.500 that's Jonah, going, word of the Lord.

00:32:15.680 But basically I think what's trying to be communicated

00:32:18.860 with this view is just emphasizing the mercy of God.

00:32:22.260 That even before the completion of special revelation,

00:32:24.940 the scripture, and even before the covenantal change 0.52

00:32:28.900 and grafting in of Gentiles and those kinds of things,

00:32:31.280 that God still was saving Old Testament saints

00:32:35.960 even outside of Israel

00:32:37.580 and even some that weren't included

00:32:41.240 in the biblical record.

00:32:42.420 There could be an entire nation

00:32:43.940 that was saved in 1500 BC

00:32:46.420 that we don't even know about.

00:32:47.980 The Bible doesn't contain everything that happened.

00:32:50.120 Right.

00:32:50.580 God left some of the story.

00:32:52.740 Like there are parts of it that we'll learn eventually.

00:32:55.600 I mean, I hope that Noah's we're fully known

00:32:57.460 means that we'll get to see

00:32:59.420 that we'll get to do what Gandalf did

00:33:00.880 and going into the vaults in Gondor

00:33:03.340 and looking through all the scrolls.

00:33:05.080 Like we'll get to read the story of this tribe

00:33:07.600 in ancient South America that no one knew about but God.

00:33:11.840 And he did some miraculous.

00:33:15.120 But to think that God's doing that through nature,

00:33:17.100 but to think also that this preterate natural fairy

00:33:21.680 is maybe that that's part of his role.

00:33:25.240 That's just a really compelling.

00:33:26.640 Emphasis on his.

00:33:27.820 Yeah. 0.97

00:33:28.940 All male.

00:33:29.580 but river daughters. No, it's a really compelling view to me. I think that when you look at nature

00:33:38.080 with an honest eye, it's difficult not to see how even the most material of things like a rock on

00:33:45.620 the side of the road is in the tapestry with spiritual things. Like a whole framework for me

00:33:52.640 is what Bob Vink says. I mentioned it in one of the other episodes in his book, Christianity and

00:33:57.240 science, that every single thing we see is pointing us towards something unseen. He's not just

00:34:03.640 blowing smoke when he says that. He's being a Christian because every single thing that we

00:34:08.720 engage in is engaged in the midst of an unseen realm and an eternity that matters. And so the

00:34:17.380 stakes are high. And if the stakes are that high, then it would make sense that God, you know, in

00:34:22.820 he loves to use servants to accomplish his will. I mean, we exist, for example. Angels exist. We

00:34:29.220 know that. And so why would there not be some kind of preternatural category that is over

00:34:35.520 geographic areas to ensure that God's decree is carried out and they're there because God just

00:34:40.460 likes them? He likes to see people obeying him. He likes to see people delighting in how he delights

00:34:45.960 in himself. We know that this is true. And so you can go, I think, too far with that. You can say

00:34:51.660 like, well, the river started speaking to me and told me about Christ. I doubt it. No, but I doubt

00:34:57.440 it. But, but there could, but there could very well be a sense in which when you're in a place

00:35:02.640 and you feel an existential dread, or on the flip side, you feel some amount of peace that

00:35:08.040 seems to be really nice and something that you really need. Maybe you should just pause and pay

00:35:12.500 attention. All of creation. And there's a temptation for us to reduce this to purely

00:35:17.560 anthropomorphic analogy. All of creation praises God. Read Psalm 148. The clouds, the fire, the

00:35:24.160 hail, the snow, the cedar trees, the dragons, everything in creation is commanded to praise

00:35:29.680 God. Wild winds that do his word. They not only praise God, but they accomplish his will.

00:35:35.740 And again, many times it's attributing to them the ability to do that. And kind of the modern

00:35:43.860 in me wants to reduce that down to just saying, well, it's, it's praising God by doing what it

00:35:48.220 was supposed to do. Like it's when the wind is blowing and that's what it's supposed to do.

00:35:51.000 There's no like knowledge in it or there's no nothing, you know, nothing like that.

00:35:54.520 It's the glory of fulfilling your purpose.

00:35:56.320 Doing the thing that you were created to be and do. And I think that's certainly true regardless,

00:36:00.320 but this, what you're saying also allows for the possibility that here we have servants of God

00:36:06.640 who are going and mediating his will and ensuring in the winds that the things actually do what

00:36:12.360 a fairy that's like the trees really are

00:36:14.980 worshiping God on a windy day

00:36:16.660 but then there's a conductor 0.76

00:36:18.960 that's a fairy

00:36:20.740 he's over that group

00:36:22.000 he's the first chair in the string section

00:36:24.980 Neil deGrasse Tyson by the way right now

00:36:26.860 is about to pop like Kool-Aid

00:36:28.680 and just be like

00:36:30.680 oh yeah you think that

00:36:32.960 winds are just

00:36:34.540 high pressure areas moving through the fluid

00:36:36.920 of the atmosphere

00:36:37.820 but hell is

00:36:40.940 Common Neil deGrasse Tyson.

00:36:42.620 Hell's hot.

00:36:43.240 I'll say this.

00:36:44.980 It's easier to conceive of something like this

00:36:47.040 in the realm of the celestial, I think.

00:36:49.220 Because it's so far, we think it's out there.

00:36:51.620 We think it's so far removed from us.

00:36:53.300 We know that the stars are meant to praise the Lord

00:36:58.220 and that the sky pours out praise.

00:37:00.820 But we also know that some stars are fallen

00:37:03.980 in the sense that they're worshiped.

00:37:06.040 We read this in Amos where it says 0.82

00:37:08.900 that you gave up your God for Molech and his star, Rephin. And then Stephen repeats that in his 0.54

00:37:15.700 sermon to the Sanhedrin in the book of Acts, chapter seven. There's a multiple. Yeah, there's

00:37:20.380 but they all, they're referencing the same thing. And that's that Molech, this fallen God has a 0.94

00:37:25.580 servant and one of his servants is a star. And so they're worshiping the celestial host. So some of 0.63

00:37:32.380 them maybe are fallen, but certainly not most of them, or certainly not all of them, it would be

00:37:37.540 of remnant. And so I think, yeah, a third. So I think that you can have the same thing here on

00:37:42.920 earth where some of them maybe fell, some of them didn't. But it's really easy to draw that

00:37:48.540 conclusion about the stars, at least conceptually, where you are meant to think that way.

00:37:52.720 So system-wise, I can't help it, but like, so you have heavenly creatures and they're all

00:37:58.020 creatures. God alone is the creator, heavenly creatures. And some of them are, you could call

00:38:02.980 angels in a loose term, but there are angel angels, messenger angels, and anytime they're

00:38:08.280 sighted, they look a lot like us. Gabriel, you know, they interact with us. Anytime they're

00:38:13.400 sighted, you know, earthly visitations, but their abode is still heaven. Man facing God in terms of

00:38:18.840 allegiance, but man facing in terms of duty and role and those kinds of things, ministering spirits

00:38:24.120 to aid men, those who are to inherit salvation. So that's angel angels under this heavenly

00:38:30.040 classification or a heavenly type of, of heavenly creature. And then there's also in, in that

00:38:37.780 category, cherubim, seraphim, four living creatures, and this would be higher classes, higher, but not

00:38:43.520 necessarily man facing, but very much God facing, holy, holy, holy, guarding the holiness of God,

00:38:49.500 guarding, you know, all these different things. But then we're saying some of those that were

00:38:55.540 heaven was their abode fell watchers and arguably others, but watchers fell. And then, so then you

00:39:02.520 have that category of fallen heavenly angels. Then you have the category of their offspring

00:39:07.240 with the daughters of men, Nephilim, who died, but now disembodied spirits. And often that's 0.81

00:39:12.980 what we think of when we think of a demon. They can be sent into the pit, but are bound to the

00:39:17.900 earth. Right. Bound to the earth for now. And so you have Nephilim disembodied spirits,

00:39:22.860 the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim

00:39:24.540 who are physically now dead. 0.97

00:39:26.240 God wiped them out, but whatever, and still roaming.

00:39:31.200 And then the watchers who fell,

00:39:33.180 some of them locked in gloomy dungeons who did the deed.

00:39:36.060 Arguably some fallen watchers, angels, heavenly angels

00:39:38.620 who did not do the deed of taking the daughters of men 0.74

00:39:42.240 and created the Nephilim. 0.61

00:39:43.700 And so you have Nephilim disembodied spirits on earth,

00:39:46.580 maybe some watchers that have not been locked

00:39:48.380 in gloomy dungeons wandering on earth.

00:39:50.700 And then this last category of still angelic in the sense of it's not human beings.

00:39:57.700 It's an angelic creature, but earthly abode.

00:40:01.000 That's where the fairy thing comes in.

00:40:02.500 And with them, same as the heaven ones.

00:40:04.040 Some fell, some didn't.

00:40:05.260 And with these, some fell, some didn't.

00:40:07.740 And we're saying, if anything, probably a minority fell, right?

00:40:11.620 And if we're counting the stars, that a lot of these stars are not fallen.

00:40:16.740 And they were created to specifically govern over the physical processes of God's creation.

00:40:23.820 Yeah, create a cosmos to orchestrate it in its duty, its glory, to worship.

00:40:29.180 Real quick, before we continue with the show,

00:40:31.240 you need to be aware that you're merely watching one episode

00:40:34.420 of what's actually a 10-part series covering all things under the banner of high strangeness.

00:40:41.080 The 10 episodes include the following.

00:40:43.340 Number one, the lost city of Atlantis has just recently been discovered.

00:40:48.300 Episode number two, Hollow Earth, the last living dragons and primary water.

00:40:54.020 Episode number three, biblical giants, their clans, sizes, and supernatural abilities.

00:41:01.260 Episode number four, mythological giants.

00:41:04.300 Hercules was actually a Nephilim.

00:41:07.000 Episode number five, everyone has been wrong about Bigfoot.

00:41:11.200 episode number six fairies the elemental spirits episode number seven the biblical case for the

00:41:18.420 existence of mermaids episode number eight ghost that's not your grandma that's a demon episode

00:41:26.480 number nine witches necromancy and familiar spirits and lastly episode 10 angels their

00:41:34.820 classifications physicality and sexes now all 10 of these episodes are available ad free right now

00:41:44.300 exclusively on patreon these episodes are only dropping one at a time over a series of multiple

00:41:51.340 weeks but you can get them all available today ad free plus the addition of two exclusive bonus

00:42:00.040 episodes at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries again it's exclusively found

00:42:08.700 at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries go and check them out today and now

00:42:16.880 back to our program a key distinction would be i do think 100 true i think that they are

00:42:23.120 they've got it i mean confirmed full sense i think that they're heavenly beings thanks for tuning in

00:42:27.080 No, you're good.

00:42:29.920 I think they're just like the rest of the angelic hosts,

00:42:33.780 heavenly beings.

00:42:35.020 But I think because of the role they've been given,

00:42:37.320 we perceive them as preternatural.

00:42:39.260 And we're not wrong to do that.

00:42:41.240 Perception is reality for us.

00:42:42.720 We don't have the mind of God or the eyes of God.

00:42:44.780 We have the mind and eyes of men.

00:42:46.420 So I think that we're right to view them as preternatural,

00:42:49.700 towing the line.

00:42:51.000 But I think that in their actual nature,

00:42:52.800 they are heavenly beings.

00:42:53.600 They're supernatural.

00:42:54.260 That are taking on this.

00:42:55.680 Yeah, they're supernatural,

00:42:56.460 role, but they're taking on this role. Much like, I mean, much like the Ainu in Middle Earth. 0.98

00:43:01.980 Yeah. Like that is, you know. It's a similar. It's fictional, but it's a good way to conceive 0.99

00:43:06.740 of it where they have been given this role. And so they take on this role by also assuming some

00:43:12.740 of the raiment of the world. Like the Maiar. Yeah. So I think that view, going back to your 1.00

00:43:19.880 very first question, Joel, of this, okay, what can we say? What are the categories? Again,

00:43:24.980 the biblical data doesn't tell us everything, doesn't purport to, and we're never going to

00:43:29.340 say something contrary to, which is why we would rule out several of these beliefs that have

00:43:33.980 existed. You saw me shaking my head. There's this one. I was like, oh, no to that. You can't do it

00:43:39.440 because the scriptures close the door. This is one where work needs to be done. At least someone

00:43:45.620 could make a biblical argument that this is ruled out and we would hear it. But to my knowledge now,

00:43:51.440 it's not ruled out. Like this is something that's possible. It explains a lot of these

00:43:55.520 sightings that people have or a lot of the folklore and tradition, just like we're saying

00:44:00.840 the Nephilim and the Watchers in Genesis 6 explains a lot of history and mythology in the

00:44:06.960 world, even with ancient through to modern. Demigods. Yeah. So this is another category like

00:44:14.300 that where we're saying here's a way of understanding the history of mythology of

00:44:19.020 the world through a category that is biblically possible. And we're not going to come down and

00:44:25.320 say, you know, bind someone's conscience and say like, we're going to add this. This is now going

00:44:30.400 to be a chapter in the systematic theology on the level of theology proper. It's like, absolutely

00:44:34.720 not. This is glory of kings to search things out. What we're trying to do is we're making exactly

00:44:38.820 what you said, making sense of the world, making sense of narratives that you found in cultures

00:44:43.380 all over the planet before they even had supposedly interaction with one another.

00:44:47.160 and instead of doing the typical materialistic,

00:44:50.140 secular, humanistic, Darwinian, arrogant thing 1.00

00:44:54.380 and saying, that's all stupid 1.00

00:44:55.900 and we're the first generation of human beings 1.00

00:44:57.760 to ever been born that are intelligent.

00:45:00.120 We're not gonna do that.

00:45:01.320 And then saying, it's nothing. 1.00

00:45:03.000 It's nothing and you're dumb. 1.00

00:45:04.400 And then also not saying 1.00

00:45:05.840 everything the ancients ever said, full send.

00:45:08.820 Although if I had to choose hard press between the two,

00:45:11.400 probably everything the ancients said.

00:45:14.180 Hard press.

00:45:14.980 But what we're trying to do is say no to modernism

00:45:20.500 and then materialism,

00:45:22.780 but then also no to untethered spirit,

00:45:25.640 Gnosticism, spiritualism.

00:45:27.060 We're not mystics.

00:45:27.900 We don't wanna fall in any ditch.

00:45:29.220 And so we're trying to say,

00:45:31.240 there's probably something true there in Greek mythology, 1.00

00:45:34.340 but probably shouldn't trust the Greeks 100%. 0.99

00:45:36.660 It's garbled. 1.00

00:45:37.500 And so take, but let's see.

00:45:39.200 And then what does the Bible actually,

00:45:41.620 where do we, what portions of this

00:45:43.400 we also find in scripture, oh, we found, okay, this is legit. This is probably true.

00:45:48.900 This categorical thinking is-

00:45:51.300 And they're not binding the conscience.

00:45:52.360 No, no.

00:45:52.780 But you can believe in this and it could be right.

00:45:54.800 It's a way to attempt to walk along, walk in the pasture that orthodoxy fences in.

00:46:02.820 Yeah.

00:46:03.380 You know, walk in the pasture of your confession is what I like to tell people. So the confession

00:46:07.640 is a fence.

00:46:08.520 Don't hop the fence.

00:46:09.260 You love the fence.

00:46:10.180 Right.

00:46:10.420 You don't try to ruin the fence. You don't try to go beyond it.

00:46:12.900 you love the fence when you reach it. But within the fence, there's a rich, fertile field that you

00:46:16.820 can walk around and explore in. And I think that because we've, for hundreds of years now, let this

00:46:22.400 whole category go, that it's actually really rich. And so I'm just saying, let's just go graze over

00:46:27.560 there and see what there is. And you find that there's many ways to reconcile this idea that

00:46:34.520 the ancients had with scripture in such a way that you don't break any of the rules. But then also in

00:46:40.440 a way that seems to tie in really nicely with the whole tenor of creation. Yeah. Right. That

00:46:44.620 everything has its purpose and its place and its part to play. And not only that, but it's governed.

00:46:49.420 It's governed. It's all governed. It's not, and it's not just governed in a floaty way of, well,

00:46:54.360 God decreed it. It's not governed directly by God as the direct authority overall. God appoints

00:47:00.960 governors. Like I, I am doing things that I'm doing because God decreed it, but I'm also doing

00:47:05.980 things that I'm doing because I'm a man who's governed. I'm governed by my parents. I'm governed

00:47:10.840 by my boss. I govern my kids, but they're still doing everything God decreed. So this is just

00:47:17.160 trying to work out a way to fit in everything to the natural tenor of creation while also not

00:47:23.980 completely discrediting most of human history as nonsense. I think a great way to end this episode,

00:47:29.500 Joel, if I could be so bold, would be just with a story of one of these type of fairy

00:47:35.680 incidents that will because we haven't actually talked a lot about these that's true let's end

00:47:38.880 it like that here's another great way to end this episode uh encouraging the listener to join on

00:47:45.120 patreon you can watch some of the bonus episodes you can watch the other because everything we're

00:47:49.720 talking about you got to watch the angel episode as we're talking there's a lot in the angel episode

00:47:53.720 and the bigfoot episode gives you a precursor to fairies yeah um but you definitely need to because

00:47:59.480 we covered some of the angel stuff but not in the depth and there's some missing pieces that are

00:48:03.680 vital uh that we did in the particular angel episode so you got to check out that and one

00:48:07.860 more that i might i might uh so humbly suggest mermaids oh yes because we're talking about some

00:48:14.160 of these these missing cat mermaids actually answers some questions and brings up some

00:48:19.580 fascinating new ones and i know that one sounds weird but within the christian framework and

00:48:24.380 like there might be something there it's definitely worth checking out yeah i i do i'm fascinated by

00:48:29.120 mermaids. Joel loves mermaids. Yep. So all that being said, and then lastly, so join us on Patreon.

00:48:34.500 It's just Patreon, right, you know, slash Patreon.com slash RightResponseMinistries.com,

00:48:41.020 but then also subscribe to our channel, but then go to Haunted Cosmos on YouTube. Subscribe to them.

00:48:47.000 Is there something specific that they should go to? Yeah. Haunted, you search Haunted Cosmos on

00:48:50.700 YouTube. Okay. If you go to The Haunted Cosmos. Smash the subscribe, smash the like button.

00:48:54.780 Seriously, subscribe to their channel.

00:48:56.160 Subscribe to us on podcast.

00:48:57.160 Hit the bell on both.

00:48:58.520 Hit the bell.

00:48:59.000 We're releasing it.

00:49:00.040 This is going to be coming out.

00:49:01.400 We'll have a full episode on fairies in this season. 1.00

00:49:04.360 Awesome. 1.00

00:49:04.760 Along with many other,

00:49:06.040 we've dealt with ocean mysteries.

00:49:09.380 We've dealt with ghosts, Bigfoot, demon, you know,

00:49:12.120 many of these things,

00:49:13.100 more than 20 episodes, main episodes.

00:49:15.640 And we also have a Patreon series

00:49:17.220 where we have more than 70 episodes

00:49:19.520 called The Dusty Tome

00:49:20.980 that's just for our patrons there

00:49:22.400 and make our show possible.

00:49:22.960 It's a weekly show only for the patrons.

00:49:24.500 Yeah. And it's, it's really, really tremendously well done. Ben, Ben does the heavy lifting on

00:49:28.520 the Dusty Tome and I think everybody would enjoy it. If you enjoy this conversation,

00:49:33.780 you know, you definitely enjoy those. Okay. Fairy time. Fairy story. So, so this is a story that

00:49:39.660 comes from a region where you get lots of these kinds of stories, which is among the native North

00:49:44.260 Americans in Delaware, Massachusetts kind of region. I think it's the Wampanoag is the name

00:49:49.100 of the tribe. And I might be pronouncing that wrong, but they have a conception of like a two

00:49:54.540 to three foot tall sort of trickster entity called the Pukwudgie. And they believe in this for 0.98

00:50:01.200 centuries before oral tradition, many stories of this being that would attempt to lure you into

00:50:06.640 the woods or trick you into coming into their domain and sometimes doing you harm. Okay. So

00:50:13.720 So there's this story that's in the background. And then there was a gentleman who in modern

00:50:19.480 times, not that long ago, he was in this area of the United States and got a job where like

00:50:25.500 many of us in our youth, he was working swing shifts, that three to 11, three to midnight

00:50:30.620 kind of shift. And so he would get off of his job very late at night. And that was kind of when he

00:50:38.740 was, he's going to go do all the things we'd normally do at 6 PM or in the morning. He's

00:50:42.840 walking his dog. He's going on a run, whatever he's doing. So one night he'd taken his dog out

00:50:48.160 for a walk at close, you know, right around midnight. And he's walking along a path, you know,

00:50:54.240 just kind of a foresty area around this mixture between urban, suburban, and foresty. And all of

00:51:00.840 a sudden he, and I can't remember the exact order, but it's something like he feels a sense of dread.

00:51:05.680 Like there's something wrong. He starts to hear noises and then even voices in the woods.

00:51:11.980 and his dog is...

00:51:14.420 That's classic.

00:51:15.440 Yeah.

00:51:15.840 The dog can see the goat.

00:51:17.080 You know, the dog is...

00:51:18.000 Right.

00:51:18.380 The dog's like... 0.99

00:51:19.200 Like Balaam's donkey. 0.99

00:51:21.200 Hackles her up. 0.99

00:51:22.360 Balaam's donkey moment

00:51:23.400 with his golden retriever

00:51:24.620 or whatever it is.

00:51:25.620 And the dog is disturbed

00:51:27.860 when he sees

00:51:29.460 this little silhouetted creature

00:51:32.760 come up at the edge of the woods.

00:51:35.280 He can see it.

00:51:36.240 And it's about two to three feet tall.

00:51:38.680 Trollish kind of thing.

00:51:40.080 And it says...

00:51:41.980 I want to, I want to, and he's like, no idea what this is.

00:51:47.280 Of course, freaked out, leaves, you know, and he just can't stop thinking of, of course,

00:51:53.260 can't stop thinking about this.

00:51:54.580 Right.

00:51:55.480 And he finally, he, he's like, what was it saying?

00:51:58.880 What was it trying to get at?

00:52:00.100 And he's not certain, but as the story goes, his conclusion that what it was saying is,

00:52:06.580 we want you, we want you, trying to get him to go into the woods.

00:52:11.980 Okay, whether or not that's true or whatever,

00:52:15.100 eyewitness again type of testimony.

00:52:17.320 But this is exactly the type of thing we're talking about

00:52:19.080 where you have the trickster.

00:52:20.520 This is the kind of story.

00:52:21.680 Yep.

00:52:22.140 Trickster entity and this, you know, changelings,

00:52:26.380 the meeling, there's so many of these types of stories

00:52:29.740 that we could get into, but we're not going to

00:52:31.760 because we're out of time.

00:52:32.680 Yep.

00:52:33.280 But we're about to record another episode for another week,

00:52:36.700 which you could watch now if you join Patreon,

00:52:38.780 but the next one's going to be witches. 0.91

00:52:40.700 And witches get stitches. 1.00

00:52:41.980 witches get stitches. Thanks for tuning in. Real quick, right here at the end, I just wanted to 1.00

00:52:46.000 remind you to become a member at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries exclusively

00:52:52.400 for our Patreon members. We have all 10 episodes, early access, ad free. Some of my favorite

00:52:59.480 episodes to be looking forward to is episodes that deal with Bigfoot or fairies or ghost or angels

00:53:05.660 or giants, or particularly our episode on witches. If you want to watch these episodes now,

00:53:11.540 and you want to watch them without any ads,

00:53:13.820 then you've got to join us by becoming a member

00:53:16.380 at patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries.

The NXR Podcast - May 10, 2024

THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Faeries ｜ The “Elemental Spirits” (Colossians 2_8)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript