The NXR Podcast - July 26, 2025


THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - “I’ll Take The Christian, But Hold The Judeo＂

Topics
Judeo-Christian sentiment
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Joel Berry Lady Liberty Paul Michael Belch Martin Luther Stephen Wolf James Giordano Doug Wilson Jim Jordan Somalians Gentile Judaism Isaiah Hitler Bibby Ezra Dude
THE LIVESTREAM - Are All People Really Equal？ w Dr. Stephen Wolfe THE SERMON - Blessed Is The One Who Is Not Offended By Jesus

Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

179.95

Word count

9,319

Sentence count

332

Harmful content

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

71

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Dr. Stephen Wolf and I discuss the Biblical Case for Christian Nationalism and why nations are not less than people in place, but more than that. We discuss the six L's: Land, lineage, language, laws, loves, and liturgy.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:30 All right, we are back. So this is now episode four of a 10-part series, myself and Dr. Stephen
00:00:51 wolf we are doing really going through the the book the case for christian nationalism and what
00:01:00 we've done so far is we uh started with what would you say episode one i keep saying episode
00:01:05 one was aristotle but it was a lot more than aristotle what what was episode yeah now i have
00:01:09 to remember it felt like it was months ago that i did that um no hours ago um yeah like we was
00:01:16 going to be the introduction but then it was some methodological stuff like why i didn't use
00:01:20 scriptures, stuff like that. That's right. But then episode two, we got into defining
00:01:25 nationalism and Christian nationalism. Episode three, though, became almost like a series within
00:01:31 a series. I made my inception joke, you know, dream within a dream. We've got a 10-part series
00:01:35 and then a mini-series, you know, within it. And so the last episode, episode three, was kind of
00:01:40 like a part one answering the question, okay, so we've already talked about in episode two,
00:01:45 what is Christian nationalism, defining that. But now, you know, to really understand that,
00:01:49 we're discussing, well, but what is a nation? Especially for Americans, a lot of Americans
00:01:54 can't answer that question or refuse to answer that question. So episode three, the episode
00:02:00 immediately preceding this one was what is a nation? And we really focused on home and history.
00:02:06 In this episode, we want to go a little bit broader and say that a nation is never anything
00:02:10 less than a people in place. It's a particular people in a particular place. It is a home. It's
00:02:16 not just a set of propositions or an economic zone. But it is true that nations are not less,
00:02:23 but more than just people in place. And so we've got six different components, and you can
00:02:29 push back on them or help me explain them or add some if you want. But six different components
00:02:36 that I kind of teased out at the end of the last episode, and I got these from my friend Michael
00:02:41 Belch. He's a part of our live stream that we do with Right Response Ministries and a part of the
00:02:45 church that I pastor, Covenant Bible Church, and he's coming out with a book called The Biblical
00:02:50 Case for Nations. And so he came up with these six L's. They all start with an L. Land, lineage, 0.99
00:02:56 language, laws, loves, and liturgy. Land, lineage, language, loves, laws, and liturgy. So land and
00:03:07 lineage, that's people in place. A nation's never less, but a nation is also more. What do you think?
00:03:15 um i don't know if i'll go to remember all those l's but yeah i i would you do it your way
00:03:21 i'll do my way yeah you do um yeah uh i mean like language for example uh is
00:03:29 is pretty crucial that's the that's the example i i typically use when people try to say
00:03:37 that all you need all you need to do is be a christian like everyone if everyone's a christian
00:03:42 then you can form a political community. And so I say, well, there is no universal language. There's
00:03:48 no language that the gospel prescribes, unless we want to all go to Hebrew or Greek or whatever,
00:03:54 Latin, which would be kind of a lot of trouble. And so the gospel then does not destroy nation
00:04:02 groups as linguistic groups. Like it's going to enter into an English-speaking people,
00:04:08 with chinese-speaking people and uh that's going to be the way they preach the word is through the
00:04:13 vernacular of that local place and the political community yeah so um and there's even like even
00:04:19 though we uh we share the same language with england there's still many ways in which they
00:04:24 they communicate things that we don't and vice versa so um that that changes in different places
00:04:30 so i i think that's uh um i mean there's an argument for like why that we actually can be
00:04:36 closer to england as as fellow states fellow nations because of a shared language um so yeah
00:04:43 i think that's absolutely the case i don't know if i have any anything else that's fine
00:04:48 does uh no that's fine okay no that's good um what this is kind of i don't know it's a little
00:04:53 quirky but it's something that i i've thought about um i don't know maybe i shouldn't get into
00:05:00 it it deals it deals with israel a little bit oh okay um it'll be fun it'll be okay i'm gonna do
00:05:05 All right. So I don't actually even know your position. So I'm asking you here right on the spot. This is not something that's planned or rehearsed. And I don't even know the answer. But so I kind of have prescribed to, you know, other guys have held it. But a lot of times it's attributed to Jim Jordan, James Jordan.
00:05:24 and, um, the, the partial preterist hermeneutic, uh, applied to the whole scripture, um, not the
00:05:33 whole, but, but most of it in the new Testament and basically saying that pretty much every new
00:05:38 Testament book of the Bible is written pre 80, 70, and then taking that and applying it even to
00:05:42 Romans 11. And so saying, you know, there's certainly not, you know, as a supersessionist,
00:05:46 a covenantal guy, both of us, I know, agree with that. Uh, there's certainly not any, you know,
00:05:51 physical land promises for Israel in our future. But most covenantal guys, including the Puritans 0.99
00:06:00 and a lot of the reformers, still held to a futuristic spiritual revival for Israel,
00:06:07 ethnic Israel, according to the flesh, that eventually they would be saved. And Romans 11,
00:06:11 that they're the natural branches. The true Israel isn't even the church. That's true in a sense, 0.98
00:06:17 but the true Israel is Christ. He's the root. And the wild branches have been grafted in the
00:06:23 Gentile nations. And eventually, these natural branches will be grafted in too. Well, I take 1.00
00:06:27 the position that that actually already happened, that leading up to 80, 70, part of it going back
00:06:32 to like the Olivet Discourse, that Jesus gave really, I think, some of the most profound and
00:06:38 accurate prophecy in the ministry of Jesus and his earthly ministry ever. In Matthew 24, I tell you
00:06:44 truly, you know, that not one stone will stand on another with the temple and that Titus, you know,
00:06:49 he's going to come in. And he even says before this generation passes away, I don't think that's
00:06:52 a metaphor, this type of generation, but you, you people. And sure enough, 40 years later, give or
00:06:58 take, you have the destruction of the temple, you have the destruction of Jerusalem. And I think 0.52
00:07:02 there were a lot of people there that remembered the words of Jesus and Jesus warned them, you know,
00:07:08 don't go back and grab your tunic or this or that, but run, head for the hills. And so I don't think
00:07:12 he was referring to his final physical return that actually is still in our future, but he was
00:07:17 referring to a local judgment that could actually be physically escaped. That's why you don't go
00:07:23 back and grab something because you actually could escape. And coming on the clouds, I think
00:07:27 it's not like, oh, heaven's coming back. It's the final, the end of the gospel age, but clouds
00:07:32 signifying judgment like in Isaiah or Joel chapter two. And so there's clouds and billows of smoke
00:07:36 from the desolation and Titus sacking Jerusalem and the temple and all these things. And even
00:07:41 And Josephus, you know, who sometimes is, you know, there's an argument to be made in terms of reliability, but Josephus, you know, had there were multiple eyewitness accounts that said that, you know, through the smog and the desolation, the destruction of Jerusalem, people saw through the smoke, saw what looked like silhouettes of chariots going back and forth.
00:08:01 So there's a parousia of sorts. In a sense, it was a second coming of Christ, not in the flesh,
00:08:07 not the final physical return of Christ, but Jesus did return. He did come in a second time
00:08:13 in a spiritual sense through judgment and providence carried out through Titus and the
00:08:17 Romans. All that being said, I think that Christendom that we've experienced from Constantine
00:08:24 all the way up to present day, 1,500 years in Gentile nations in the West, and then beyond
00:08:29 just christened them in the west and you know lots of gentiles being saved and china and brazil
00:08:33 and south america and all these different places i i don't think we're waiting for a catalyst and
00:08:39 i love the puritans probably you know more than a lot of guys um but i think they were wrong on
00:08:44 this i don't think we're waiting for um a lot of them were post-millennial and so am i i know you're
00:08:50 not but i don't think we're waiting on the natural branches to be grafted back in this this spiritual
00:08:55 revival for ethnic Israel, according to the flesh, so that we can then experience this
00:08:59 life from the dead revival among Gentile nations. I think Christendom has been life from the dead. 1.00
00:09:05 We've been experiencing. And I think the reason why we've been experiencing it is because the
00:09:09 natural branches leading up to AD 70 and at AD 70, I think some Jews were destroyed in Jerusalem
00:09:16 as judgment, but I think a lot of them converted. I really do. And then in converting, they probably
00:09:21 took heed to Jesus' words in Matthew 24, got out of Dodge, escaped the physical judgment,
00:09:27 probably intermarried with different peoples and moved north outside of Jerusalem and all
00:09:30 this kind of stuff and became other peoples and dispersed and were Christians. And I bet you 0.87
00:09:34 this one's a little controversial, but I can't prove it and we'll never know. But I wouldn't
00:09:39 be surprised if we find that some Christians in Palestine actually, turns out, are the posterity 0.93
00:09:46 tracking back to, you know, Jews in 80, 70, that converted and ran away from the desolation. And so 0.61
00:09:51 that's my thought. Now that said, when it comes to like nationhood, a lot of guys, when they're
00:09:59 advocating, you know, they'll never advocate for America. Like I picked on Joel Berry in the last
00:10:03 episode and you can never do that too often. Joel Berry deserves it. But so I'll do it a little bit
00:10:10 now. You know, so I, he would never argue, you know, advocate for these things for America because,
00:10:15 you know, he hates America, but he would argue these things for Israel because he loves him
00:10:21 some Israel. And I've heard guys like Joel Berry, they would say, well, you know, because Titus,
00:10:29 all the birth records were destroyed. Like I preached to Ezra recently. And it's like,
00:10:32 if you wanted to go back and build the temple the second time, much less a third time,
00:10:37 hypothetically, that I don't think will ever happen. But even the second time, you think of
00:10:40 God's law being immutable and his standards never changed and all these kinds of things.
00:10:43 like you had to you had to prove lineage you had if they didn't have the birth records they didn't
00:10:47 get to be a part of the project they weren't hated or despised but i'm sorry you can't you
00:10:51 can't come and you can't you can't do this because you can't prove that you're israel it's not your
00:10:56 thing uh so going back and rebuilding the walls in jerusalem and the temple and all these things
00:11:00 in the book of ezra and nehemiah um required proof well titus destroyed all the birth records
00:11:07 and and you have like like not not 25 years it's not 15 minutes it's it's a quarter of a millennium
00:11:14 it's like 250 years 240 years um before the entrance of the talmud and then picking back
00:11:20 up with birth records and tracking family names and all these kinds of things and and and i've
00:11:25 heard some guys this gets to nationhood i'm actually getting there with nationhood i've
00:11:29 heard some guys say well it doesn't matter like uh people in place land and lineage
00:11:34 blood and soil, God forbid, whatever. It doesn't matter. What matters is even if these were
00:11:41 different people, it doesn't matter. They came back and they picked up the rituals and the
00:11:48 customs and the culture. And so for all intents and purposes, they're Jews. And I think of that 0.59
00:11:54 and I'm like, well, I think, because I like some of the obscure stuff like Nephilim and fairies
00:12:00 i think that atlantis is uh the recrossed structure and uh in the sahara desert and if i go there
00:12:08 and excavate and let's say i get lucky and i find different artifacts and i even find like some
00:12:12 hieroglyphics and uh writings and stuff like that and i uh recover um atlantean the language and
00:12:19 learn how to write learn how to speak it and me and the boys you know we go and and then we discover
00:12:24 the customs and the culture, and we start practicing those things, then we're Atlanteans.
00:12:29 Like, does nationhood work that way? Do people... No, I would just say no. Like, we could recover
00:12:35 and appreciate, and we could even learn how to speak the language. And that's the whole thing
00:12:39 with Israel. It's not just that the temple was destroyed, and the city was destroyed, 0.96
00:12:44 and the birth records were destroyed, and you got a quarter of a millennium that passes with no line
00:12:49 of, you know, keeping birth records and all these kinds of things, but they lost the very language.
00:12:53 They had to relearn how to speak Hebrew.
00:12:56 You know what I mean?
00:12:57 And so even if they are the little descendants,
00:12:59 I can't prove that they're not.
00:13:00 I don't think very many people can prove that they are.
00:13:03 But the point is this. 0.64
00:13:05 It's funny because it actually applies to Israel.
00:13:09 But this idea of, well, a nation isn't really people in place.
00:13:14 It's not really land and lineage.
00:13:15 It's just language and just laws and just liturgy and just loves.
00:13:21 And so you can go anywhere, and even peoples that don't exist anymore but have been lost to history, like Athens or whatever, you could go to a place, and if you can recover the language, learn how to speak the language, learn how to write in the language, find some old books, pick up the rituals and the customs and the practices, and even dust off the religion, then you are those people.
00:13:45 you become the nation of israel you become and and it's i think that's we were talking about in
00:13:50 our last episode i think that might be the correlation the connecting point between the
00:13:54 dispensational i love myself some israel zionist who also at the same time is propositional
00:14:00 nationhood for america because i think the propositional nationhood for america is the
00:14:04 whole way you get modern day israel because there's a massive gap and that's the only way
00:14:09 can happen. So, language matters. Laws matter. Liturgy matters. Loves matter. But I'm of the
00:14:17 persuasion that even if I could recapture all those things from the Atlanteans with me and my
00:14:22 buddies, we still wouldn't be Atlanteans. What do you think? Yeah, if you're coming from the outside
00:14:30 and you're intent upon adopting a national way of life, the nation has to be there.
00:14:39 there so it's like ruth coming into to become your people or my people your people um there
00:14:47 has to that has to you can't just create this thing and then declare i'm israel or i'm atlantean
00:14:52 or yeah that's not going to work um that there's about ruth really could become israel yeah but
00:14:57 she could only become israel because there was an israel there was an israel that existed there
00:15:01 was a people in which she could kind of graft herself integrate into and then her descendants
00:15:06 as well exactly um yeah that's interesting i i actually i i don't know i uh if it's like
00:15:14 if there's if people have thought that through though because i think most people think that
00:15:19 the jews in israel are jewish 100 by descent the reformers thought that like they you know
00:15:25 yeah yeah i know i'm taking my position is thoroughly orthodox it's not it's not heretical
00:15:30 it's a it's what i would call a hard supersessionist uh position and i would say the
00:15:36 reformers and puritans were soft supersessionist and i i fully recognize that the soft supersessionist
00:15:42 position is uh the majority opinion within the reformed tradition and that says something when
00:15:47 you're going against the majority opinion of the reformed tradition but the opinion i'm having
00:15:51 could be wrong uh but it's not a heretical unhinged position yeah yeah and i i don't you
00:15:58 know that's actually the the question itself i haven't studied enough to come down on a definitive
00:16:03 answer and the main reason is so for me in theology i i focus on the theology that i think
00:16:09 is most relevant for my political thought and so there's a lot of things i don't know in theology
00:16:13 and there's some things in theology that where i sound like i'm a theology whiz when i'm really not
00:16:17 and like broad and totality of it but um one reason i haven't studied that issue is i think
00:16:23 it's not politically relevant um well yeah for today for all intents and purposes israel what
00:16:28 what i'm don't don't hear what i'm not saying um it doesn't matter for you know they are a
00:16:34 legitimate nation state they are a people today yeah there's a disconnect to biblical israel or
00:16:39 not yeah there's still a people and for me as a post-millennial guy i believe all the nations
00:16:43 eventually will be saved including this nation of israel whether they can track it back all the
00:16:47 way or not yeah so i'm not i'm not saying that you know why do you care about i'm saying that
00:16:51 is that we should not consider that question as politically relevant, whether you fall on this
00:17:00 side or that side. I mean, dispensationalism becomes politically relevant. That's why it's
00:17:04 kind of dangerous that way. But in this position, it's like when people kind of fall on the side of
00:17:10 there will be a mass conversion of Jews, they tend then to push back, even if they're kind of 0.77
00:17:15 on our side, I guess, they'll push back and say, well, if we're going to have a Christian, 0.61
00:17:19 we can't have a christian nation or if we do have a christian nation has to be kind of maximally
00:17:24 religiously uh like tolerant and and uh have religious liberty why well because you might
00:17:30 have a handful of jews exactly i've asked the question all the time it's interesting that
00:17:34 it's like well then then what about jews and i'm like well they're like they're like three percent
00:17:40 of the population right like why why so you're saying we can't have a christian nation if we're
00:17:45 like if we're like 97 percent christian which of course we're not now but if if we were as in
00:17:50 people who identify with some sort of christian confession or whatever and but there's three 0.84
00:17:56 percent jews you're saying that the three percent have to dictate to us that we can't have a 0.91
00:18:00 christian nation i mean certainly we can we can tolerate what christians say today they literally
00:18:04 say that and that's why i'm constantly asking it's also because of like world war ii and like
00:18:09 they think it's a very like if i if i answer if i answer on the side of like you know like yeah
00:18:14 we'll have a Christian nation and people will tolerate synagogues. 0.82
00:18:17 Even that will sound like Hitler. 0.99
00:18:19 And so they'll,
00:18:20 they think it's a gotcha question.
00:18:22 They think it's a defeater.
00:18:23 Whereas I think that if you have 3% of the population,
00:18:25 non-Christian, 1.00
00:18:26 then who cares? 1.00
00:18:27 Who cares?
00:18:28 Right.
00:18:28 Be kind,
00:18:29 be respectful,
00:18:29 but no,
00:18:30 you don't,
00:18:30 you don't get to drive the bus.
00:18:32 Yeah.
00:18:32 If you are a small,
00:18:33 yeah,
00:18:33 that's not going to stop us.
00:18:35 It shouldn't stop us from having,
00:18:37 from having a Christian nation,
00:18:39 even if you believe that there will be a mass conversion of Jews.
00:18:43 and this is how like even you know even like you said the most people in the reformed tradition
00:18:47 believed um that there would be that as i understand i haven't studied very closely but
00:18:52 you know that is clearly the majority position i'm taking the minority position but none of them
00:18:56 none of them let them think oh well we have like a family of jews here therefore we can't have a
00:19:01 christian magistrate we can't have christian laws because oh you know uh you're gonna have um uh
00:19:07 blue laws on sunday but what about saturday because the jew you know that family and so it's
00:19:12 like it's uh that's why i say it's it's to me not politically relevant at least with regard to my 0.52
00:19:18 own political i would say our political um aspirations or um well the reformers like they
00:19:24 were like yeah there's going to be a future revival for the jews and that's going to be a 0.71
00:19:26 catalyst that kick-starts this life from the dead revival among gentile nations that will benefit us
00:19:30 and everybody else in the world and yet in the same breath they were also able to say um and you 0.79
00:19:35 also can't hold political office as a jew yeah well and and many of them said more than that
00:19:40 so um they were willing yeah they were willing to do to have specific laws about about specifically
00:19:48 targeting right Jews and which is not to say that you can't you don't get to drive the bus
00:19:55 right if if you're somebody who who's not a Christian and even more than that not just not 0.56
00:20:00 a Christian but someone whose entire religion is founded on the rejection of Christ yeah yeah and
00:20:05 that's like so by pointing that out i'm simply saying that none of that theology of conversion 0.94
00:20:11 the jews came to shape their thoughts on politics exactly and they were right they were right to not
00:20:16 let that happen and today it does and that's why i just generally am uninterested in israel 0.84
00:20:24 and jews broadly speaking um at in terms of determining our political system and a christian
00:20:32 nationhood. I only consider Israel as a state among other states in the world. And if Iran is 0.78
00:20:39 a threat or you want balance of power in the Middle East because they hate Saudi Arabia,
00:20:43 Saudi Arabia hates them, and Syria hates all these dynamics in the Middle East, 0.64
00:20:47 maybe it's good to have a place like Israel where they can occasionally bomb Iran. 0.99
00:20:52 Maybe that's good. Maybe it's not. But that's my level of analysis of Israel. I don't care 0.97
00:20:57 about that other stuff. And I don't think we either, we should have no theological love for
00:21:01 Israel. There's reasons not to love Israel on lots of grounds. Theologically, there's reasons to not.
00:21:07 Well, yeah, yeah. But I think we should treat them as geopolitically rather than that.
00:21:14 Amen.
00:21:15 And we should just get—yeah, it's very frustrating. It's very frustrating that,
00:21:20 yeah, like, you can have a society that tolerates people who are not Christians. 0.99
00:21:27 you can grant them citizenship you can have them in in a formal sense capable of
00:21:35 achieving anything anyone else can achieve like in american history there were to my knowledge
00:21:42 there's there's never been a specific law targeting jews in america i could be wrong about
00:21:46 that but but and jews did fairly well um in in the united states uh and but at the same time for
00:21:53 most of our history we said that we're a christian people and no one had the second thought of well
00:21:59 what about the jews right and so we should also so we don't have to then you know have a uh take
00:22:06 mart mart like martin luther's or martin bootzer's program for the jews in the future we can we can
00:22:11 grant religious liberty and toleration but at the same time saying you live here i mean if you want
00:22:17 to be um publicly jewish in a jewish state where among jewish people there's you have the right to
00:22:24 return um to israel um and we should not hinder them for that um but um and and actually that i
00:22:30 mean it's people like like hazoni uh yarm hazoni right who said this clearly is that america is a
00:22:36 protestant historically a protestant country he he has said that he wants christians to return to
00:22:44 having like a strong assertive will for itself and a public christianity and and a return to a
00:22:52 type of nationalism in which protestantism was a was the essential feature of it um and yeah and
00:22:59 so that that's that's what i that's what i've always envisioned what you envision right um and
00:23:05 so we should get away again it's like we don't have to go in the post-work instances this time
00:23:08 But that is the driving mentality is that the moment you start getting these mental images of mustache man, it's like, oh, we can't have a Christian nation. 0.75
00:23:19 Right. 1.00
00:23:19 You're absolutely right.
00:23:20 So what I was going to say, you said, so basically, you know, what you said is I have no theological love for Israel.
00:23:25 I don't really care, you know, as a political, you know, as it is a legitimate nation state.
00:23:30 Now, whether it should have been, you know, reformed in the 1940s and whether it should have been there, plenty of arguments to be made on either side.
00:23:38 however, in God's providence, this is the way it played out. God's sovereign over all things.
00:23:41 It is what it is. They have a right to self-defense. They have a right to exist and not be,
00:23:46 you know, blasted off the face of the map. So they are a nation and whether or not other Western
00:23:50 nations like ours should have some kind of, you know, partnership with them, that's, you know,
00:23:55 that just depends on the situation, you know, and like what's going on. And that could be wise.
00:24:00 In other cases, it could be foolish. But theologically, there should be no Christian 1.00
00:24:07 nations like America shouldn't have any theological obligation or motivation to be 1.00
00:24:15 about it. And so this is the last thing I was going to say on that. So I agree with everything
00:24:18 you said. Part of though, what landed me on hard supersessionism as my position with Romans 11
00:24:25 is first and foremost, the God-breathed text. I really feel like it makes that hermeneutic
00:24:31 applied to Galatians, applied to the book of Hebrews is integral, the whole book. The whole
00:24:39 book of Hebrews, the book of Galatians, and then also Romans chapter 9, 10, and 11, those would be
00:24:47 some of the key texts and Ephesians. That hermeneutic seems to be the most consistent and
00:24:52 has the most, just the best way of resolving all those texts in a consistent manner for me. And so
00:24:59 the exegesis persuaded me beyond that. So that's number one. I really was persuaded, I think, by
00:25:04 the word of God. But secondly, secondly, one of the things that persuaded me is even if you're
00:25:12 not a dispensationalist and you don't think there's any future land promises, physical promises for
00:25:17 Israel, by simply holding to a future, an our future, in Paul's future, because I date, you
00:25:23 know, the writing of Romans, probably like 80, 50, 80, 55. So it was in Paul's future, 80, 70. But 0.87
00:25:28 But if you think it's in our future, that Romans 11 is indicating a future, not land promises, not physical, but a spiritual revival for Israel, not in Paul's future, you know, 20 years down the line, but still in our future, then one of the things that has to happen, especially, and here's, see, for you, you can get out of this as an all-male guy, but for some of the post-male guys, especially the ones who are like, it'll be 50,000 years before Christ returns.
00:25:56 Think about this logically. If you're a long game post mill guy, but you're also like, there's a
00:26:03 spiritual revival for Israel. And a lot of these guys hold to like a David Chilton golden age. And
00:26:10 they think the golden age comes right after. So it's right at the end before the final physical
00:26:15 return of Christ. And right after this revival, spiritual revival among the Jews. And a lot of
00:26:21 think that it'll be about a thousand years, but they think that we've got a 50,000 year timeline.
00:26:27 So think about this logically. We're 2,000 years in, 50,000 years is the timeline, and the Jews 0.96
00:26:33 are going to get saved with this revival right before the last thousand years. That means we
00:26:37 have, if my math is right, 47,000 years between today and the future spiritual revival of the 0.59
00:26:45 Jews. And even if there's not a physical land promise, and it's just a spiritual revival promise,
00:26:50 well one thing that has to happen for that spiritual revival promise to be fulfilled
00:26:54 is they have to at least survive yeah right so for 47 000 years no intermarriage western
00:27:01 christian nations with whether you know alliances military keeping them out of war uh no intermarriage
00:27:10 like you know like kinism for for uh for uh thee but not for for me you know like at every single
00:27:16 level and and you basically have to grant yeah special privilege yes you have to give them
00:27:22 special privilege yeah and even if you only think it's a spiritual revival whereas like me and isker
00:27:27 we both take the approach that i already espouse with the partial and so me and isker what it
00:27:32 allows us to do is it doesn't require us to have any animosity or malice or hatred or anything like
00:27:37 that but it also allows us to be like you're not special at all at all you're not less special
00:27:43 you know but not at all and and and here's the thing even the guys are like well joel that's uh
00:27:50 you i you're treating you're talking to me like i'm dispensational you're talking to me like i'm
00:27:54 a zionist it's like well brother i i know you're not dispensational i understand you're covenantal
00:27:58 i understand you're westminster you know uh federalism and blah blah blah i get it good for
00:28:02 you um but here's here's what you even you with your position still require their survival so
00:28:08 was like it's like a functional dispensationalism it is yeah that's that's interesting i mean i have
00:28:14 noticed that uh yeah we we do we do very seriously uh attack the idea of um the the rejection of 0.57
00:28:24 like interesting marriage like the but not but not for jews and there can i can see how there
00:28:30 can be a theological motivation but if it if it is morally wrong in itself to attack that and then
00:28:37 you're giving like a special almost release for for jews and we actually do that all the time i
00:28:42 just read a wall street journal article written by a rabbi who was uh bemoaning the fact that
00:28:48 jews in the united states are not marrying fellow jews right and they're not uh and the ones that
00:28:54 do intermarry with non-jews are not raising their children we have an ethnically jewish guy in our 0.95
00:29:00 church and of course he's converted he's a christian um and he doesn't do the you know
00:29:04 the messianic jew thing because he's like no i'm christian amen amen yeah um and so he you know he
00:29:10 was a part of the church for a while and moved ended up moving on but um but i you know he was
00:29:14 married to um uh you know white lady who's not jewish yeah i don't know what her exact ethnicity
00:29:21 is but um she looked kind of irish to me but uh anyways uh i i asked him about it and he uh i was
00:29:28 like did you get some flack he's like he was like you you wouldn't believe yeah like i my parents i 0.78
00:29:35 might i i i might as well have just killed them you know like uh it was they could you know my 0.95
00:29:42 parents my aunts uncles like it was it was received as like the most deeply disrespectful 0.99
00:29:48 heinous thing that i possibly could do because all these christian nations view israel is very
00:29:55 very special. And Israel certainly views Israel as very, very special. But the thing is, if you
00:30:03 have that, if you've carved out that space for yourself or others have carved out that space for
00:30:08 you, then yeah, there are certain assumptions baked into the pie. We can't let Israel get 1.00
00:30:17 blown off the face of the map by Lebanon or Iran or whatever. We've got to come to their aid
00:30:25 militarily. We need to send billions of dollars every 15 seconds. Every election, you've probably
00:30:34 seen the memes where it's like, who's going to win this election in America? And it shows all
00:30:38 50 states are the same color. And it shows Bibby. And he's like, the true winner of every American 0.60
00:30:46 election i do think like logically though i i think you could i don't think it has to lead to
00:30:51 that uh logically from that position i can see how someone would get there but i think you also
00:30:57 could say that you actually don't have any theological obligation to any anyone because
00:31:03 it's a matter of providence that there will be jews such that they could mass convert yeah but
00:31:08 it's a matter of providence that god would save people but we still do evangelism a matter of
00:31:13 providence that god you know answers the need of people but we still pray i think that's yeah even
00:31:18 the providential calvinist would still say yeah like if it is god's if it's god's will and he's
00:31:23 providentially going to bring it about he's still going to do so through human agency and means and
00:31:27 we have an obligation to you know yeah i mean i i yeah i can see i can see how that could lead there
00:31:33 but i'm that that didn't that didn't strike anyone in our tradition that that that's the case i mean
00:31:37 of course modern israel did not exist but it does today somehow yeah it does yeah that's but you're
00:31:43 I'm with you. The reformers believed it was going to happen. Ethnic Jews still exist. They're going 0.56
00:31:47 to be saved. It hasn't happened already. It's going to happen in our future. It's going to be
00:31:51 a wonderful thing. And if you're going to live in this Christian nation, you got to play by the 1.00
00:31:54 rules. They were able to do it, but we can't for some reason. And I think that has to do with 0.82
00:32:02 nationhood. Back to our topic. I really do. I think part of it has to do with dispensationalism.
00:32:09 The reformers certainly weren't dealing with dispensationalism. So part of it's a theological
00:32:12 problem, theological error, but I also do think that some of it has to do with our propositional
00:32:18 nationhood idea, that they're a real nation, people, place, lineage, land, but we're not.
00:32:28 So they have certain privileges that we don't. It would be consistent with the idea that the
00:32:32 United States and the people who have historically lived here, they are here to facilitate other
00:32:38 people having their identities. And this kind of goes back to what we talked in the previous
00:32:41 episode and that that is it we don't have a people but we work such that other people can have a
00:32:47 people themselves right so we're we're um yeah that that that would fit i'm just yeah um yeah
00:32:56 the whole the problem is yeah i mean that's i haven't really thought about that before the
00:33:00 the idea that that there is it's connected to our understanding of israel in that way
00:33:08 huh um yeah i mean the idea of a propositional nationhood in the united states is only part of
00:33:15 the story of course right uh which we'll probably get to at the latter series latter end of the of
00:33:20 this um well anything more i know i completely derailed the whole episode but here's the deal
00:33:26 was it interesting are you not entertained yeah so as long as it's interesting but
00:33:35 this episode if you have any thoughts on no what is a nation yeah no i mean just back on that i do
00:33:41 think like after world war ii there was there there was the never again mentality right and
00:33:45 that never again mentality is specifically focused in on on jews um and they they can openly in the
00:33:53 united states and you can read the wall street journal article that i read he actually he bemoaned
00:33:57 the fact that there was assimilation happening among jews there is a culture among them um where
00:34:04 not all of them but that that there is a that it would be wrong to assimilate because you're 0.94
00:34:09 assimilating into a christian yeah and but they can openly do that that's one of the one of the
00:34:16 the very and this is just like factually true like they can openly talk about how intermarriage is bad
00:34:21 for them no one else can talk about that i mean well whites can't but even increasingly i think
00:34:27 blacks cannot um and others like it's asians it's increasingly frowned upon for even even non-whites 0.88
00:34:33 to talk about that in my experience, but not them. 1.00
00:34:37 And so, again, I would treat the 3% of the population
00:34:46 that's not Christian just as this abstract category. 0.85
00:34:48 I don't care if you're Jewish or if you're Muslim
00:34:51 or if you're Hindu, we're a Christian country.
00:34:56 And that's it.
00:34:58 and and so um yeah we should not give special consideration uh but yeah i guess i see how
00:35:06 again post-millennialism keeps throwing all these problems that way um you guys got problems in your
00:35:12 camp um no i don't no i know because i conceive it in a different but also just i'm not in a 50,000
00:35:18 year timeline yeah well yeah like it's great if there is that 50,000 year timeline then you have
00:35:23 to justify intra-ethnic marriage. It would be a duty of us to affirm that, even though we think
00:35:30 it's morally wrong, which then we're giving a special moral dispensation against the law of
00:35:37 God, I guess. There's all these contradictions, and we tie ourselves into these pretzels and
00:35:42 knots in order to justify these things, because it comes so natural to us. Even the fact that
00:35:48 a version of the post-millennial mass conversion.
00:35:52 Even that, like we said in the past, is not the case.
00:35:56 Like no one thought like we think today
00:35:58 and have these like special considerations
00:36:01 for certain groups.
00:36:03 But it's, yeah, it just shows how strong this drive is
00:36:09 to, I mean, in part it's like when you,
00:36:15 when you're willing to say,
00:36:16 okay, there's these slice of people who do not have to assimilate, then why not these other
00:36:22 groups? And so from there you get the propositional nationhood idea. And then you get Judeo-Christian
00:36:28 values. You get these ideas. And Judeo-Christian values just happen to be that everyone can
00:36:34 maintain their identities and be here and not assimilate. And there's multiculturalism. So in
00:36:40 that sense, you have a slice of people who have an interest in non-assimilation, in marrying among
00:36:46 themselves, preserve themselves. And then what's the best way for a nation to maintain the ability
00:36:54 for them to do that? Well, you just open it up for everyone to do that. So now you have America
00:37:01 as a propositional nationhood with a historic core of people who have really no claim to this
00:37:07 place. Even their historical figures are universalized. And yet everyone comes here,
00:37:12 affirm a certain set of propositions and contribute to the gdp and then you're you're
00:37:18 kind of part of us like that's the western mentality and yeah we have to restore it because
00:37:23 because you're i'm glad you're connecting the dots and i completely agree and i've thought
00:37:28 some of these things for a while now but this is what i want christians to see and recognize um
00:37:32 what you what you're saying is that like the the idea of you know like multiculturalism and
00:37:38 and you know like come one come all you know bring us you're tired you're weary you know all
00:37:41 those kinds of things. What we're doing for other nations, for Somalians and, you know, Haitians and
00:37:49 whatever, who, you know, everybody who comes, I really do think though, the common denominator 0.79
00:37:55 at the bottom is, well, we got to do it for Jews. You can be perfectly hinged, perfectly reasonable.
00:38:04 I like, I love, I hate Judaism. I love Jews and wish them a very pleasant conversion to Christianity. 0.97
00:38:10 That's my position on Jewish people.
00:38:13 But I do see that they have been used, I think,
00:38:17 as kind of like the crowbar that worked its way in
00:38:21 to propositional nationhood.
00:38:24 And then every other people on the planet,
00:38:26 all of a sudden, America becomes a set of propositions,
00:38:29 an economic zone, and a lot of the things
00:38:31 that we're trying to fix,
00:38:34 part of the reason we can't fix it
00:38:35 is because of this Judeo-Christian sentiment, and it has to be discussed, and it needs to be
00:38:43 discussed by people who are not spiteful, or hateful, or, you know, immature, or, you know, 0.99
00:38:50 it doesn't need to be discussed by jerks. But I'd like to think that me and you aren't jerks, 0.99
00:38:54 and so I think discussing these things and just raising the question, you know, for the audience,
00:39:00 the listener, to consider as well, like, I think could be productive.
00:39:03 Yeah, if we give a pass on one group for not assimilating and essentially making themselves separate from the core, then it's not far from that to saying that anyone else who comes here can remain separate from the core.
00:39:22 And then it's not far from that to say there is no core.
00:39:25 There is no core.
00:39:26 The core is nothing.
00:39:27 And actually, this place is just a holding place for a collection of identities.
00:39:34 And we can all get along because we affirm these very generic set of propositions around liberty.
00:39:41 Right.
00:39:42 Speaking of liberty, Lady Liberty?
00:39:44 And that's very good.
00:39:45 And that world is very good for those disparate groups.
00:39:50 it's not good for the historic people of a nation they they would they then i mean this is where
00:39:58 like a press or a press narrative comes in where they because they tend to be the core and what
00:40:04 made the country what it is they are their being in a way is attached to the very thing of the
00:40:09 nation right so you have to then you have to then downplay that and destroy that and so that these
00:40:15 disparate groups can flourish in their own separate identities. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:22 And that's, that's happening throughout the West. Yeah. Yeah. What I was going to say real quick
00:40:27 about, you know, I said, speaking of Liberty, Lady Liberty, I was just curious if you're familiar
00:40:31 with this, you know, the, the, I don't even remember what it's called and I can't, I can't
00:40:37 quote it, but the bring us your tired, you're weary, you're poor, the, the plaque on later.
00:40:42 yeah yeah um have have you heard uh that you probably know what i'm gonna say but it was
00:40:48 written by a jew oh it was it okay i did not know that and i think of that and and and this is not
00:40:54 saying like and so therefore you know there's this you know secret society and everybody's involved
00:40:58 and blah blah um and i i don't think that's the case just like uh just like i i don't i'm not
00:41:05 involved with what the bidens and pelosis and you know i i don't know you know like so i think most
00:41:10 people are probably just living their lives. But I do think that on an individual basis,
00:41:15 that different people do different things. And sometimes people have an in-game insight. They
00:41:21 have an objective that they're trying to accomplish. And I don't think it was just a
00:41:26 coincidence. I don't think it's just, I'll show my hand a little bit here, but I don't think it
00:41:31 was just a sentiment of compassion. I think it was that particular person who happened to be a Jew
00:41:40 wanted America to be open to anyone, to everyone, because it served them. 1.00
00:41:49 And I don't think that America can be open to anyone and everyone
00:41:53 and be viable and sustainable long-term. I think that America, you can always have some
00:41:59 unmitigated form of immigration. I'm not saying that nobody ever gets to come ever again, but 1.00
00:42:05 every single nation has a self-preserving mechanism, is able to think about the majority
00:42:12 dominant group and say, this is us, and the nation exists for our good, you know, like the founders,
00:42:17 for our good, the good of us, and our posterity. Adams wasn't, he wasn't thinking like,
00:42:25 for my good, for my wife, for my children, and for India. That's not what it was.
00:42:33 Yeah, we have this universalizing tendency. And that universalizing tendency, when among
00:42:40 the majority core of a nation, serves not the benefit of that majority, it serves the benefit
00:42:47 of the disparate, small, highly in-group-preferenced groups.
00:42:54 And because if you, I mean, you have countries
00:42:57 where the majority has high in-group preference,
00:43:00 take like Saudi Arabia or something like that,
00:43:02 where it's, they're Arabs,
00:43:04 but there are a lot of immigrants in Saudi Arabia,
00:43:08 such like Filipino nurses and like,
00:43:10 and maids and things like that.
00:43:12 But because they have a strong assertive
00:43:15 in-group preference for Arabs and Muslims, they are able to have these small groups that then
00:43:22 would kind of conform. Essentially, they would be, they're outsiders. But if you have a weak 0.99
00:43:30 majority, a weak core, then those disparate groups can then benefit from that weakness.
00:43:38 and um so i that's what i ever having to assimilate without having to assimilate and so
00:43:45 yeah yeah and and that's why that that in part is why i i um critique our very universalizing
00:43:53 tendencies but where we're opposed to particularism for ourselves but for it for others
00:43:58 yeah um we are universal in ourselves our in-group is all people not a particular people
00:44:04 and that means that the people who can have high in group preference can exploit the people who
00:44:09 don't have a people exactly and my point was to say that even that sentiment is etched into the
00:44:15 lady liberty yeah that's that's everywhere um you you go in america it wasn't in the founding but
00:44:21 but in everything that came later um that that's so deeply ingrained in all of our minds and so
00:44:28 my whole point in bringing all this up with this episode is just to say um that a nation it it has
00:44:33 there has to be assimilation. It has to be shared language, laws, loves, customs, and cultures,
00:44:41 and even worship and liturgy. But even with all that, that's absolutely necessary. And that over
00:44:49 time, not in 15 minutes, but over two, three, four generations, assimilation, all that can happen.
00:44:55 But then over time, what that also eventually shapes is lineage. That you can look and say,
00:45:01 our grandfathers fought in the same wars. We have the same lineage, the same heritage,
00:45:08 the same history. And it's happened, the same people on the same land, lineage and land.
00:45:17 Without that, though, my fear is that the problem is that at the rate of attrition and the sheer
00:45:26 number of people coming in daily, you know, from all over the world. And in many cases,
00:45:33 some of the least compatible places, because one thing to take immigrants from England,
00:45:38 you know, or Ireland or Scotland, but, but, you know, Haiti has very little in common,
00:45:45 you know, with the United States. And so to take such an influx of year after year after year, 1.00
00:45:51 after year um without pausing you know like like there's always been immigration with america but
00:45:59 there were kind of like there were settling moments in between also it's like a flood of
00:46:04 irish and then a breather you know and a bunch of italians a breather we haven't had a breather
00:46:11 in decades no that's not gonna work it's just not yeah we're in trouble yeah final thoughts 1.00
00:46:19 That's the moratorium on all immigration.
00:46:23 I remember talking to, sitting down with Doug Wilson on this two years ago, before the book came out.
00:46:30 And I said the very same thing. 0.99
00:46:32 I said that we have to stop all immigration because we have to, as an American, people have to sort out who we are. 1.00
00:46:44 We have to digest it? 1.00
00:46:45 That's only going to take time.
00:46:47 Throw a little bit of it up.
00:46:48 corporations. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's gotta, if you're, if you're illegal, you should be
00:46:51 deported, but, but, but yeah, I mean, you can't, you can't have a, an actual people. You can't 0.51
00:46:59 fulfill the, the, the, all the goods of man, which is, which includes having a people in a place 0.99
00:47:08 by constantly bringing in people from the outside who are radically different than you are. I mean,
00:47:14 I would actually include, I think people in England and France and Germany, I don't want 0.90
00:47:19 them here either. Because in general, they would vote for the Democrats. I don't want anyone.
00:47:26 There's no people in the entire world that I want to come here. And in some ways, I think
00:47:32 the average Englishman and the average German and the average Frenchman would be just as 1.00
00:47:37 detrimental as someone from Haiti, in terms of our political life. Because I think they would 1.00
00:47:43 in terms of how they would oppose yeah sure yeah in terms of like yeah in terms of votes they'd 0.96
00:47:47 vote the same way but i think mentally they're they're more screwed up than we are uh especially 0.87
00:47:53 germany um so germany it's almost as though i remember visiting germany when i was in high 0.93
00:48:00 school with my dad on um visiting a pastor there my dad was a pastor and we were going and visiting
00:48:06 the church and um i remember just looking around and like a lot of the you know the people uh
00:48:11 the men especially you know when if you ask a question and they gave you an answer they went
00:48:15 out you know they were giving making a statement um but the the inflection and their voice would
00:48:20 go up at the end as though they were asking a question so it's like what time is it well 12
00:48:24 o'clock isn't it it's like i don't know i'm asking you is it 12 o'clock yes or no but like they can't
00:48:29 say anything with any sense of certainty or confidence oh um you know so like everything
00:48:34 has to be it's weak it's weak it's always has to have it always has to be hedged there's there's
00:48:39 a reservation and and um you can't you just can't confidently assert anything especially again the
00:48:46 men and i remember you know i was like 17 years old at the time i remember asking my dad about it
00:48:52 my dad you know was very um aware of it as well and he had been to germany a couple times before
00:48:57 and i think it was either me or my dad i think it was my dad but he said uh he's like it's almost
00:49:02 like they lost a war or something you know they seem like a very defeated people yeah and it's
00:49:08 Dude, 80, it's sad.
00:49:09 80 years later, like-
00:49:11 They are defeated.
00:49:12 They're defeated.
00:49:12 It's, yeah, I mean, it's very interesting. 1.00
00:49:15 You talk to your other Europeans, like Hungarians,
00:49:18 and they think the Germans are the same
00:49:20 as they've always been,
00:49:21 but they think they're faking it.
00:49:25 At least that's what I was told when I was there.
00:49:26 I don't think that's the case, 1.00
00:49:28 but you know, that's Hungarians. 1.00
00:49:30 But yeah, that's what I'm saying. 1.00
00:49:34 They're defeated, so I don't want them anymore.
00:49:36 Fair enough.
00:49:38 But yeah, I mean, about the American,
00:49:40 I love that we're more assertive.
00:49:42 Like we say something and that's like,
00:49:46 and we sit down for business. 0.98
00:49:47 It's like you go to Iraq or Afghanistan
00:49:50 and these soldiers have to,
00:49:52 sometimes young lieutenants have to sit down
00:49:53 with these chiefs of a tribe.
00:49:56 And they all wanna talk about for half an hour,
00:49:59 like your family and your history, where are you from?
00:50:02 And then they tell their life story
00:50:03 and then you get down to business.
00:50:05 So the Americans have to be trained.
00:50:06 before you sit down with the Afghani, you have to let him talk about his kids and his great
00:50:13 grandfather. And then you get in the business, but we just sit down and go straight for business,
00:50:17 which I actually, I appreciate. Yep, me too. All right. So a nation is shared language,
00:50:23 it's shared laws, it's shared loves, and also liturgy and worship. A nation is more than land
00:50:30 and lineage, more than people and place, but never less. Yeah. And the last thing is there's a
00:50:34 self-affirming aspect to the nation that I think is crucial, that you affirm yourself as a nation
00:50:42 worthy of doing good for yourself. So you can have all those things. Germany has all those
00:50:47 things in a way, but they're not a self-affirming people. That's a good point. Same thing with the 0.99
00:50:53 English. Like you said, they're deferential, they're apologetic, and same thing with Canadians 1.00
00:50:59 are like that um and uh but we're uh and but but we ought to be a self-affirming people and then
00:51:07 from being self-affirming we can act for our good instead of thinking we have to be deferential all
00:51:13 the time right good point thanks for tuning in uh our next episode what are we getting to next
00:51:18 it'll be episode five next i guess like christian nation christian what is a christian nation or
00:51:24 what is christian nationalism yeah now it's like well doesn't a christian nation mean you
00:51:30 eliminate all ethnic boundaries uh doesn't it mean that it's like we're all one in christ and
00:51:34 therefore we have to have the same like everything what makes the nation christian okay yeah that's
00:51:40 great i guess we'll decide you'll find out in a week right all right well thank you guys so much
00:51:45 for tuning in and we will see you next time