The NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Mormonism with Cultish

00:00:00.720 Mormonism originated in the early 19th century in upstate New York, United States, with the

00:00:05.580 visions and revelations experienced by Joseph Smith Jr. According to Smith's accounts,

00:00:10.580 he received divine visitations from God the Father and Jesus Christ, as well as other

00:00:14.980 heavenly beings, which led to the restoration of the true Christian faith. These experiences

00:00:20.140 ultimately led to the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, which Smith described as

00:00:25.020 an ancient record of God's dealings with the inhabitants of the Americas. The key

00:00:28.640 beliefs of Mormonism include, one, the restoration. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith restored the

00:00:33.620 true Christian church in teachings that were lost or corrupted over time. They view themselves as

00:00:38.700 part of a restoration movement to bring back the original Christian faith. Book two, the Book of

00:00:43.920 Mormon. Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to be scripture alongside the Bible. They believe it

00:00:48.340 contains the fullness of the gospel and provides additional insights into the teachings of Jesus

00:00:52.140 Christ. Three, modern prophets and revelation. Mormons believe in living prophets and continuous

00:00:57.800 revelation from God. They sustain the president of the church as a prophet, seer, and revelator.

00:01:02.920 Four, temples and ordinances. Mormons place significant emphasis on temple worship in

00:01:07.640 ordinances such as baptism for the dead, eternal marriage, and other sacred rituals believed to be

00:01:12.800 essential for salvation and exaltation. The Church of Latter-day Saints has grown into a global

00:01:18.460 religion with millions of members worldwide, and it continues to be a significant presence

00:01:22.660 in contemporary religious landscape.

00:01:27.800 all right here we are so this episode is on mormonism we are talking about mormonism before

00:01:37.780 we hop into some of the history you got a little preview there in the cold open but before we talk

00:01:42.080 in uh some of the history and some of the the doctrine and and the dangers um i thought it

00:01:47.640 could be cool just to right off the bat because the one thing that stood out lots of things but

00:01:52.180 one thing particularly that stood out with the cold open to me as you were reading that andrew

00:01:56.220 was it seems like a lot of cults, there's some common denominator, standard cult type practices

00:02:05.720 and beliefs. One of them seems to be this idea in terms of Christian heresies, the cults that

00:02:12.500 play off of Christian roots. One of the commonalities that I've noticed is they seem to

00:02:19.860 all have this mindset of a despising of church history. And so it's like first century, right?

00:02:30.160 Like the gospel accounts and the book of Acts, you know, and the Pauline epistles. And then they

00:02:37.520 pretty much, it seems kind of standard practice. They believe that the first century church was

00:02:41.620 legit. And then very, very early on, it was corrupted and then remained corrupted, right?

00:02:48.060 They're not creedal. Usually they despise, you know, Nicene Creed. They despise, um, Apostles

00:02:54.640 Creed, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Chalcedon, um, you know, all, all these things, Athanasius

00:03:01.560 Creed and, and church history as a whole. And so their, their mindset is, um, first century was

00:03:06.860 good. Things got off the rails. And then, uh, whoever their seer revelator is Joseph Smith or,

00:03:13.740 or fill in the blank, you know, basically God was doing something for a hundred years in the

00:03:18.360 new Testament. And then it, it all stopped. And then we are, it didn't start back up again until

00:03:25.720 us. Isn't that pretty common for a lot of, that's not just Mormon. No, that's the restoration

00:03:31.260 movement in general, you just described. So what are some other expressions of the

00:03:35.040 restoration movement? I guess that's my question. Right. Alexander Campbellite with the church of

00:03:38.520 Christ in the 1800s. And then we also have the Jehovah's Witnesses, which was actually at the

00:03:44.100 tail end of the Restorationist movement, talking about truth that was lost after the apostles and

00:03:49.460 trying to regain what was done originally with the apostles for that church today.

00:03:55.540 You would have Ellen G. White, Seventh-day Adventism. That'd be another one. Mary Baker

00:04:00.880 Eddy, that'd be one. Another one that's a very, one is really one of those cults I didn't realize

00:04:06.640 It's just how much of a radicalized following they had at the time, and they still have to this day, and there's many sects now and offshoots of it, is William Branham and the message.

00:04:16.640 He very much believed, they all had a commonality where they believed there was a time where God is sort of, at least maybe there wasn't a complete apostasy.

00:04:26.180 That's what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whom we're discussing, would adhere to.

00:04:30.960 A lot of times it's just there wasn't as much as the presence of God's Spirit.

00:04:34.760 But now, since we are now in the latter days, in this latter reign, and we're in the end times, there's now this resurgence of God's spirit and this now revival to where, you know, whoever the group is, we are the Noah's Ark.

00:04:48.900 We now have this embodiment of truth, or we now have this special anointing or blessing of God's spirit.

00:04:55.900 In this case, like the latter reign, William Brandon would adhere to that.

00:04:58.700 And therefore, that's how they would sort of separate the have, create the hows and the have-nots.

00:05:03.160 With that, could you also add, and tell me if this fits, but could you also add, say, okay, so one common denominator is most of them believe that right after the first century or shortly after, the church is derailed and everything is corrupted, to varying degrees, but for the most part corrupted.

00:05:22.320 And now we, with our founder of our movement,

00:05:26.080 he got us back on track.

00:05:28.180 We're the true successors of the apostles.

00:05:33.980 So there's always kind of like,

00:05:35.160 similar to Roman Catholicism,

00:05:36.620 apostolic succession kind of view.

00:05:39.100 And with that, doesn't that affect,

00:05:41.800 at least at some level, their eschological view

00:05:44.700 in terms of, I guess my question is,

00:05:48.540 whether it be Jehovah's Witness or Seventh Day

00:05:51.560 Adventist or Mormons, I'm not aware of a lot of all-millennial or post-millennial cults.

00:06:00.680 Aren't they all pretty much pre-millennial? They believe we, shortly after the first century,

00:06:05.640 got corrupted. Our guy got us back on track. And why our guy at this time? Because now is

00:06:12.700 the last days. And Jesus, something big is going to happen, usually the return of Christ,

00:06:18.080 and it'll probably be next Thursday.

00:06:20.400 Isn't that pretty standard, right?

00:06:22.240 That's not like a one-off unique kind of thing.

00:06:24.660 It's kind of across the board, a common denominator.

00:06:26.900 Yeah, minus Mary Baker Eddy in Christian Science

00:06:29.540 that Jerry described.

00:06:30.460 William Branham taught that it was the last days. 0.84

00:06:33.560 The Jehovah's Witnesses have multiple failed prophecies

00:06:36.260 where they gave specific dates for the end times.

00:06:39.220 Latter-day Saints.

00:06:40.480 It's in the name of the LDS organization,

00:06:44.320 straight up, Latter-day Saints.

00:06:45.800 Even Joseph Smith gave a prophecy.

00:06:47.240 He said, yay, 57 years until he wind up on the scene.

00:06:50.120 Within this generation, Christ would return.

00:06:52.920 Didn't happen.

00:06:53.920 So there's things that they even, they have to deal with.

00:06:56.520 But yes, absolutely, latter day.

00:06:58.740 So could you kind of say, I'm being a little tongue in cheek here, you know, so let the

00:07:03.240 listener understand, this is at least 50% humor, but I think, you know, there might

00:07:08.340 be some truth to it.

00:07:09.180 So it's worth saying, besides just making a joke.

00:07:11.660 You know how we said in one of our earlier episodes where we talked about witches and

00:07:16.120 and jeremiah you said um you said not uh not all feminists are witches but all witches are

00:07:25.560 feminists yes could we say um not all pre-millennials are heretics but all heretics

00:07:32.800 are pre-millennials well yeah i would yeah well what i would say is that while you know from an

00:07:40.780 evangelical standpoint within you know christendom or those when evangelicalism you've got multiple

00:07:45.460 different views of eschological views. All of them affirm the second advent, the final resurrection,

00:07:50.800 the essentials of what's been in the creeds throughout Christian history. And so, you still

00:07:55.560 are remaining within the realms of orthodoxy. So, you would see it in that respect. Where it differs,

00:08:04.500 the one thing, though, is that, you know, I love John MacArthur, a lot I really appreciate about

00:08:09.820 him. But there is a commonality between that type of adherence to eschatology and the fact that

00:08:15.740 nearly every historical cult that's come to surgence in the last 200 years, they have had

00:08:21.200 very much an end times view of that we are on the cusp of the end of all things. The Armageddon is

00:08:27.460 here. You need to, and we are the Noah's Ark, you need to come here, come hither as a hen gathers

00:08:35.520 her chicks. And that's really what is happening. And to be fair to MacArthur, he was saying, 0.95

00:08:39.700 the ark is not a type of the church, but a type of Christ. So, you don't need to come in here to

00:08:44.980 us and our teachings, but you need to come to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, he would differ in

00:08:49.160 that regard. And of course, all three of us would say that we're grateful for him and that he is

00:08:53.580 thoroughly orthodox. But you are right, though, in the sentiment. So, not the exact substance of

00:08:58.980 the doctrines, but the sentiment of this urgency. And even as post-millennials, we share the gospel

00:09:05.500 with a sense of urgency, not because we think Christ is going to come back in 15 minutes,

00:09:10.860 although he could, but it's not because so much the imminent return of Christ,

00:09:16.320 but it's because, as Paul Washer would say, whether he returns or whether we die and go

00:09:23.180 meet with him, either way, time is short. So there's always that element, regardless of your

00:09:28.860 eschatology is that the scripture, one thing that we know for sure, no man knows the day or the hour

00:09:33.820 of the return of Christ, but we do know that the life of man is like a vapor here today and gone

00:09:40.220 by, not just tomorrow, but by lunch, you know, like the dew of the grass. And so we always,

00:09:46.040 regardless of our eschatology, if we're faithful Christians, we have an urgency in doing the work

00:09:50.480 of an evangelist and in our ministry, but we don't have a sense. It could happen. No man knows the

00:09:57.880 day or the hour, including the post-millennial. But we don't have a general sense that many

00:10:03.500 post-millennials would even use kind of this kind of language in saying that it's possible,

00:10:08.720 not definitive, but it's possible that we may still be, in a sense, a part of the early church.

00:10:15.180 Whereas it seems like most Christian cults all have in common that we are way past the early

00:10:27.300 church. This is the latter days that, you know, some will say it's the final minute or the final

00:10:32.700 hour or the final, you know, like, and that seems to be, and in that sense, that does share with a

00:10:38.880 dispensational premillennial like MacArthur. Right. Yeah. And just like two. The timeline

00:10:44.700 shares. Yeah. So two, two, even like really definitive example in relation to the kingdom

00:10:48.960 of the cults, two notable characters was Reverend Jim Jones, who, you know, he started off in

00:10:55.340 Indiana. And his ministry, his quote-unquote ministry, his group, the People's Temple,

00:11:00.680 it initially was based in Indiana. And what he did to coerce his followers to move

00:11:06.260 from Indiana all the way out to the San Francisco and LA area, they had locations of the People's

00:11:12.240 Temple in both cities, is that he had this very apocalyptic end times vision that there's going

00:11:17.680 to be nuclear fallout specifically in the Midwest. And he utilized that as a catalyst to get his

00:11:24.100 loyalists and his followers out to the West, out to California.

00:11:29.100 You have the same thing.

00:11:30.100 You know, I think at some point if we end up talking about the whole situation, Waco

00:11:35.460 that took place in 1893, that was an eschatological end times group that ultimately David Koresh

00:11:44.160 believed that he had special insight into the book of Revelation and what, and final

00:11:49.860 afternoon. There's this 51-day standoff between the U.S. government agencies, between the FBI,

00:11:56.380 the ATF, between the Branch Davidians. I mean, it was this huge event that captured the fascinating

00:12:01.620 of the world for 51 days. And at the very end, before this incident happened, before it went up

00:12:08.240 in flames, David Koresh's negotiation was like, hey, I just need to finish my manuscript

00:12:13.860 of my unveiling, of my interpretation of the seven seals.

00:12:18.400 So he only got the first one done.

00:12:21.100 The manuscript of the first seal is actually out there.

00:12:22.760 You can look it up online.

00:12:23.720 If his interpretation of the first seal in Revelation,

00:12:26.380 he wanted to do all of them.

00:12:27.900 But day 51 happened, and there was a bunch of chaos that occurred.

00:12:32.160 But my point being is that... 0.90

00:12:34.060 Hashtag classic F-B-I-L. 0.92

00:12:36.700 Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:12:38.380 So that's all.

00:12:39.840 Man, I can't wait when we do our own series on that.

00:12:42.520 But at the end of the day, you're looking at a view of dispensational eschatology that came from the 1800s of this Restorationist movement.

00:12:53.640 The Branch Davidians was a spinoff of a Seventh-day Adventism, so you saw that.

00:12:58.660 And I think for me, just earlier this week, it was on Monday.

00:13:03.180 Was that the eclipse?

00:13:03.860 The eclipse is on Monday?

00:13:04.960 Yeah.

00:13:05.320 Yeah, so we had a fascination where everyone's looking out to the skies.

00:13:08.660 and what you saw, where there's a lot of people on TikTok and different socials who believe they

00:13:14.540 had a special new understanding that this is a sign from the heavens. And there's so many people

00:13:21.420 that just lapped it up hook, line, and sinker. And what my takeaway was that there are so many,

00:13:28.400 there's nothing new really under the sun. We think that we are so smart. We are so sophisticated.

00:13:34.500 well, I would never be somebody like Jim Jones. I would never go down and drink the Kool-Aid like

00:13:40.560 Jim Jones. That's such a pejorative now. Oh, I would never get sucked into one of those

00:13:45.380 brainwashed cult members. But you see people who are, even on Christian networks, who are making

00:13:50.800 the most ridiculous, out of context, twisting scripture to make what happened a couple days 0.72

00:13:57.720 ago, and that's come and gone, and now they have to explain it away. What you see, the fact that 0.94

00:14:02.900 They're just people in droves today who are lapping up so many of those influencers' claims about their esoteric understanding of what was taking place in the constellations just a couple of days ago.

00:14:14.700 That's come and gone.

00:14:15.780 It goes to show just how susceptible people are into getting into destructive cults.

00:14:23.200 So there really is nothing new under the sun.

00:14:25.440 Yeah.

00:14:25.720 Amen, dude.

00:14:26.460 Well said.

00:14:26.880 getting back into some Joseph Smith and some Mormonism, you said something interesting that

00:14:31.860 I hear from Mormons even today, that they're not creedal, right? That they follow more of

00:14:37.080 the mainline teachings of the apostles. But what's actually interesting about Mormonism,

00:14:41.680 it is creedal. There's 13 articles of faith within Mormonism. And it's not that-

00:14:46.780 Not whether but which. Everyone has a creed. It's either historic and true and tried or-

00:14:52.320 Yeah. I mean, their articles of faith are from Joseph Smith and it's like divine revelation.

00:14:55.960 that's their creed right exactly and so they'll they'll argue essentially that yes it's after

00:15:02.440 the the the death of the apostles well according to mormonism john never died that's a weird one

00:15:07.720 right but um what's true is actually they they challenge before that they say what they say the

00:15:13.640 eighth article of faith we believe the bible insofar as it is translated correctly right and

00:15:17.800 they also believe that the book of mormon to be the word of god so what that means is that they're

00:15:22.280 actually challenging scripture in and of itself, right? So scripture to them is not 100% accurate.

00:15:29.500 So in terms of sola scriptura, as the old and new Testament, we see it being the sole

00:15:33.020 infallible rule of faith and practice. They say that's wrong. And they say that many different

00:15:37.440 restorationist movements do that as well. So the Watchtower Track Society and the Jehovah's

00:15:41.600 Witnesses will say, yes, we have the Bible. We have the new world translation, their own, 0.93

00:15:45.900 but it needs to be interpreted through an organization or an individual to go to the

00:15:51.520 person, you can't read it for yourself and get the fullness of truth and revelation. But what's

00:15:56.120 funny about Joseph Smith and Mormonism is that we have this young farm boy growing up in parts 0.86

00:16:04.240 of Vermont and then eventually moving to Palmyra with his family. But I want to talk about his

00:16:11.180 family and before his own revelations and what they were involved in. It's notable that Joseph

00:16:18.500 Smith grew up in a family that was involved in occult practices. Remember, we talked about

00:16:23.300 the hermetic tradition and the occult philosophy in our previous episodes. Remember the very basic

00:16:30.020 premise of hermeticism, right? That we are of the same substances of God, but it's through

00:16:35.240 rites and rituals that we can progress to this godhood, okay? Mormonism, we are of the same

00:16:42.100 substance as God, and it's through rites and rituals within the temple and ordinances in which

00:16:49.000 we can progress to become what? Gods. Gods. Yes. So in terms of the life that Joseph Smith lived

00:16:55.900 in the fabric of early, this early part of American history, the magic, the folk magic

00:17:03.860 that was going on was prevalent all throughout Palmyra, New York, right? His father was invested

00:17:10.340 in treasure digging. They were invested in dowsing and dowsing is a form of scrying in a

00:17:17.660 sense. And scrying is something I mentioned earlier. I forgot the word for it, but I was

00:17:21.320 just remembering in my notes where the earliest forms of scrying would be looking into a river,

00:17:26.900 looking at a reflection for a long time to see something, to view something, to get

00:17:30.200 secret information. Also scrying would be, I think it's Snow White's evil stepmother was

00:17:36.640 on the wall staring in a mirror right exactly that's a form of scrying especially like a black

00:17:41.840 um so like a reflective obsidian or some kind of black so i like i know you know like even some

00:17:48.360 people are concerned about no i i disagree with this you know but um some people would be concerned

00:17:54.100 about like a television they're just having it hanging on the wall as it's turned off and it's

00:17:59.720 reflective and it's black you know and that it's mirror mirror on the wall kind of situation i'm

00:18:05.380 saying that, you know, that necessarily has to be your view, but my point is that goes back to

00:18:11.140 scrying. That's what somebody who would have that view is someone who is, they're right in a sense,

00:18:17.940 that like they are aware that there are ancient occult practices.

00:18:21.300 Yeah. And again, a lot of times when you even look at something like that, again,

00:18:26.180 what we're talking about as we've talked throughout our extended series of podcasts

00:18:29.380 in this season here is about one versus two. There are presuppositions that come with

00:18:35.140 crying. The presupposition is like, a mirror is a mirror. Like, I woke up this morning,

00:18:39.520 I look at the damage that had been done from the night before. And, you know, and that mirror led

00:18:44.380 me, it's like, I better jump in the shower, it's time to get going for day two of our podcasting.

00:18:48.260 But that's just, that's just a reflection. That's just, those are just elements that were

00:18:52.720 made by somebody who makes a mirror that are just part of God's world. And that's not anything

00:18:58.560 that we should fear. But the presupposition of someone who's a pagan, they would look at a mirror

00:19:04.160 and believe that there is a blending of both spiritual within the physical elements. There's

00:19:09.120 no distinction between what's spiritual, like everything is spiritual. So if you are, as a

00:19:14.540 Christian, if you're looking at that and being paranoid about it, you're giving credence to a 0.62

00:19:18.780 worldview that's antithetical to that. You're assuming a blending between the material and

00:19:23.400 the immaterial. You're thinking like a oneness. So I think if a Christian struggling with that,

00:19:28.100 I think they just need to renew their mind and understand, no, you don't live in a world of one,

00:19:33.000 you live in a world of two. So don't live in fear. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

00:19:38.080 Real quick, before we continue with the show, I wanted to let you know that this is actually just

00:19:42.900 one episode of a 10-part series that we will be slowly releasing to the public on places like

00:19:49.860 YouTube and your favorite podcast platform over the coming months. However, if you want to get

00:19:55.940 all 10 of these episodes right now, early access and ad-free. We are making them available

00:20:03.280 exclusively for our Patreon members over at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.

00:20:11.680 Here are the titles for just a few of those episodes. We've got transhumanism and artificial

00:20:17.700 intelligence. We also have DMT and the astral realm. We also have neo-paganism. And another

00:20:26.420 of my favorite episodes is an entire episode devoted to the greys. So again, head on over to

00:20:33.840 patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and sign up for our silver tier, which is just

00:20:40.700 $5 a month, and you'll be able to get all 10 of these episodes ad-free right now. And if you join

00:20:48.220 us at the Gold Tier for just $10 a month, you'll get early access ad-free for the full 10 episodes

00:20:55.280 plus an additional live stream that I and the guys who join me for this series, that's Jeremiah

00:21:01.920 Roberts and Andrew Sunkrant, the three of us will be doing live streams where we'll be taking

00:21:07.620 questions from you, our gold tier Patreon members, and providing for you the best answers that we

00:21:13.900 possibly can from the Word of God. So don't delay. Go to patreon.com forward slash right

00:21:19.820 response ministries and become a supporter today. And that said, if you're a Christian and you don't

00:21:25.040 want a TV in your house, not because of scrying, but because you just don't want to watch a bunch 0.96

00:21:33.020 of garbage as a family, then that's totally, that's totally fine too. That's a really, you

00:21:39.780 know, reasonable. Yeah. But go in the story, Andrew. It's so fascinating. Yeah. So it is noted

00:21:45.200 that Joseph Smith's parents were into these occult practices. For example, Joseph Smith was born in

00:21:51.780 December. So they thought there was going to be something very special about him. Also, it's noted

00:21:56.480 that his mother stated that he was born with a cowl over his head and a cowl is being born with

00:22:01.940 part of the amniotic sack over the top of the head, right? And the belief is, according to

00:22:07.780 these superstitious beliefs, that this person would be essentially a prophet, a seer, or a

00:22:11.460 revelator. So this is also noted that people who, when they would travel on ships back in the day,

00:22:18.040 when we use ships to travel across the ocean or Great Lakes, they would carry cows with them

00:22:21.680 actually in their pockets, parts of amniotic sacks, because it actually protected them from

00:22:24.920 their ship sinking. So it's a very superstitious belief that dates back even prior to Joseph

00:22:28.800 Smith, but his father, his mother were very superstitious. They even, uh, have not just a

00:22:35.700 little stitches, but superstitious. Um, she, she practiced like palm reading, right? She was even

00:22:42.380 someone that was noted as being really into, uh, healing with herbs back in the day, but that could

00:22:49.040 also take a really weird turn, you know, uh, also into palm reading and also phrenology, which is

00:22:55.180 reading parts of the shape of the head in order to understand personality. You can go and look at

00:23:01.000 Mormon magazines. This is prior to Ensign Magazine, but early in the 1900s, late 1800s,

00:23:07.920 there's actual full phrenology charts in their own magazines. And phrenology is superstitious.

00:23:14.000 It is occultic. It's a form of essentially like knowing your personality through astrology and

00:23:19.800 horoscopes but going through the shape of your brain in your head right anyways uh joseph smith

00:23:25.860 uh they end up moving to palmyra and here in palmyra is when joseph smith really starts

00:23:31.340 learning quite a bit about treasure digging from his father okay uh explain treasure digging because

00:23:38.640 you mentioned that in a previous episode and i nodded my head and said oh but i don't know what

00:23:43.380 it is right so i mean i i just finished reading treasure island with my kids i understand literal

00:23:48.460 treasure diggy but i have a feeling you're talking about something different so different okay so if

00:23:53.760 someone wants to go through a deep rabbit hole i recommend the book called early mormonism and the

00:23:58.560 magic worldview written by michael quinn he was actually an lds individual who wrote it he was

00:24:04.240 excommunicated for this book it's a really thick book professor i believe so yeah um he died even

00:24:10.840 as someone who still believed in the lds organization but he wanted them to get back to

00:24:14.820 the roots of their magic, okay? So when we're talking about treasure digging in the 19th

00:24:19.760 century, it was a belief that spirits were in control of treasures that were hidden underground.

00:24:25.120 And these treasures can move from here or to there. And guess what protected these treasures?

00:24:29.460 Gnomes. According to the book called The Magus, which is an occultic book that gives instructions

00:24:34.380 on how you are to perform rites and rituals in order to achieve the ability to get the treasure

00:24:40.900 without it moving from one place to another.

00:24:43.000 So these treasure diggers were very well-trained

00:24:45.740 with the magus on how to perform these rites and rituals

00:24:49.580 to get the treasure.

00:24:50.760 Needless to say, the treasure moved a lot

00:24:53.260 because something wasn't performed correctly, right?

00:24:56.340 There is evidence of a ritualistic dagger

00:24:59.560 that Joseph Smith Sr. had.

00:25:02.120 He actually gave it to his son Hiram,

00:25:03.940 which is Joseph Smith's older brother.

00:25:05.520 And there's photos of it.

00:25:06.780 You can go look at it.

00:25:08.020 This dagger is about eight inches long on the blade,

00:25:10.380 and it has the seal of Jupiter. I believe also a seal of Mars. And this is a ritualistic dagger

00:25:15.740 that would have been used during the rituals on treasure digging to try to get the treasure to

00:25:20.180 stay put. Needless to say, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., they were involved in treasure

00:25:28.300 digging and something also called dowsing, which is trying to find or locate water with a stick of

00:25:33.200 typical witch hazel. So all of these practices are forms of divination, okay? So let's remember

00:25:40.080 this. Okay. According to the Bible in Deuteronomy 18, these things are called an abomination to God.

00:25:47.060 I'm going to throw some things at you. That's very interesting. 1820 is when Joseph Smith was

00:25:52.480 supposedly had his first vision account. What happened in the first vision account, Jerry?

00:25:57.500 He believed that he saw two distinct personages and went to pray to see which church was true.

00:26:03.780 And then two distinct personages in separate form, in separate person, totally separate from each

00:26:09.900 in bodily form, the father and the son. And then the father introduces the son and says,

00:26:15.700 this is my beloved son, hear him. And then Joseph Smith asks which church was true. And then he

00:26:21.540 instructs them. This is in Joseph Smith history. This is in the front of any book of Mormon,

00:26:25.220 anybody who has a quad, which is the book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great

00:26:28.940 Price. And he says, no, do not join any of them for all the professors are corrupt, all the creeds

00:26:33.880 are abomination in God's sight. They confess them with their mouth. They have a form of godliness, 0.90

00:26:38.440 but deny the power thereof, and so forth and so on.

00:26:41.380 Okay, so we have God the Father and God the Son,

00:26:44.740 two separate beings appearing to Joseph Smith.

00:26:46.860 I'm not going to get into the intricacies of the differencing of the First Visions

00:26:49.940 and how that adopted First Vision story was actually recorded

00:26:53.580 at least, I believe, 15 to 16 years later after it supposedly happened.

00:26:57.440 The earliest First Vision account that was recorded is in 1832

00:27:00.060 has no mention of God the Father and God the Son,

00:27:02.480 and that's actually by Joseph Smith's own hand.

00:27:04.040 You can look that up yourself.

00:27:05.600 But 1820 is when he has his supposed first vision.

00:27:08.540 He's around 15 years old, right?

00:27:10.740 Well, what does he do from 1820 then to around 1825, 1826?

00:27:15.240 Do you think he lives a holy life?

00:27:17.840 No.

00:27:18.440 No.

00:27:18.780 What does he do?

00:27:19.480 He's treasure digging.

00:27:21.560 Why would God come to somebody and then this person is continuing in what is called an abomination to God?

00:27:27.980 I see.

00:27:28.860 It's really weird to me.

00:27:29.800 I mean, he did the most of his treasure digging in these years.

00:27:33.740 Gotcha.

00:27:34.560 Like, what in the world?

00:27:35.640 A lot of people are doing these specific practices to con people.

00:27:40.520 And that's one of the reasons why Joseph Smith,

00:27:44.140 it's actually a matter of public record.

00:27:46.040 It's in the state of New York.

00:27:47.100 There is a public arrest record that you can see

00:27:49.500 where Joseph Smith was arrested.

00:27:52.360 He was tried and convicted for glass-looking.

00:27:54.920 Crying, yes.

00:27:56.180 Primarily because you're really dealing with a society at that time

00:27:59.400 that had principles based off of God's law.

00:28:01.540 And so they actually had rules and regulations against practicing divination because it was

00:28:06.700 harms to one's neighbor. So a lot of really, even that prosecution came about by really applying

00:28:12.700 principles from God's law into a society. That's crazy. Well, hold on. So you're saying this is

00:28:17.520 public New York record that he was arrested, tried, and found guilty, but not for theft or

00:28:24.260 for murder, but for witchcraft. Glass-looking. Yep. Which is a form of witchcraft. And this

00:28:29.120 But that was considered illegal by the state of New York. 0.80

00:28:33.580 But we've never been a Christian nation. 1.00

00:28:35.600 Right. 1.00

00:28:36.600 And also it would have been a form of theft.

00:28:39.180 So you have that.

00:28:40.080 Because he was conning people.

00:28:41.480 He was conning people too.

00:28:42.960 But what is just very interesting about even Joseph Smith's upbringing,

00:28:47.000 I believe there was a period when he was young where,

00:28:50.280 I can't remember, do you remember there was an event

00:28:52.420 where he obtained a substantial injury where he was debilitated?

00:28:57.700 Very young.

00:28:58.460 Very young.

00:28:58.920 Very, very young. He had a deteriorating bone disease in his leg that was going to kill him,

00:29:06.180 by the way. And there was a doctor who had a new technique. Instead of cutting off the actual limb,

00:29:12.920 they could go in there and remove that part of the bone. Mind you, there's no anesthesia during

00:29:16.800 this time. He is young, young, young, young, young. He's around, oh man, I wish I could

00:29:20.560 remember the date off the top of my head. I think he's like around eight to 11 years old.

00:29:23.680 He just doesn't even drink any whiskey. Nothing like that. Takes no medicine. They cut him open,

00:29:28.560 go into his leg and remove that part of his leg.

00:29:30.920 So he walked with a limp essentially kind of like

00:29:33.860 for the rest of his life after that.

00:29:34.960 Yeah, and there's a lot of commentaries given on Mormonism,

00:29:38.120 people who have looked at Joseph Smith's upbringing

00:29:39.940 and would even say that, I mean, you'll see

00:29:42.580 as Mormonism progresses is that Joe Smith

00:29:46.740 was a very imaginative person.

00:29:49.180 There are a lot of people who would give credence

00:29:52.280 to that incident to where he had this injury

00:29:55.100 because he was basically bedridden.

00:29:57.340 He was unable to move.

00:29:58.220 So he imagined just sitting there eight to nine hours a day, especially at, you think about where I was when I was eight or nine, I was so imaginative. I mean, I just love that era of my life. And that, you imagine just sitting there and you're under the influence. The main influence you have are your parents who are glass lookers, they're sorcerers, they're involved in all these things.

00:30:19.580 So you're doing that on top of your imagination.

00:30:21.940 And so you end up seeing that really assimilated as far as just how imaginative and I think that he comes with and really laying the groundwork to which is, you know, one pretty much the quintessential American religion.

00:30:36.000 Right. So we have 1820, the supposed first vision account.

00:30:38.780 Right. And then September 21st of 1823, we actually have another vision that Joseph Smith has.

00:30:44.760 And this is when Moroni, an angel, appears to him over a period of nine hours overnight.

00:30:49.580 What's funny about this, and I believe it's Oliver Cowdery who records this, which is a friend of Joseph Smith, that prior to this night, they were out treasure digging before Moroni the angel appears to him in his house at nighttime.

00:31:04.340 But what's funny is in the book called The Magus that details how to do certain magic rites and rituals, it states that the veil between God and man is the thinnest on September 21st.

00:31:15.120 21st. So why is it then that it's September 21st after doing hours of treasure digging that Joseph

00:31:20.760 Smith goes to his room to pray is when the being appears, right? So we have C.S. Lewis, right? Liar,

00:31:26.860 Lord, or lunatic or whatever the three is. Is that right? Which one is he? Which one is Joseph 1.00

00:31:32.560 when we're talking about this? Did he actually have visions? Was he just a con man? Did something

00:31:37.960 come to him? Was it the same spirit that appeared to Muhammad, right? That said very similar things 0.50

00:31:44.160 to Joseph. This is the world that we're living in. I think it's a blend between a liar and also

00:31:49.460 a lunatic in terms of something confusing him. Right. Yeah. But it's not just that he's, 0.97

00:31:55.180 the point you're making is it's not just that he's a con man, but it's not less than that. 0.98

00:31:59.480 He is a con man. What does the devil do? He cons con men. That's right. Yeah, exactly. But it's not

00:32:04.320 just that he came up with all of it on his own to con others. He probably did see something

00:32:09.320 because we live in God's magical world and it is filled with incredible things and also dark

00:32:17.020 and terrible things. Right. So, so what does this angel then tell Joseph Smith in this vision? He

00:32:22.060 tells him, well, there's these golden plates that are located on this hill, Hill Cumorah.

00:32:26.560 The next day he goes to work at his father's, but again, he, because they had their own farm,

00:32:31.260 he'd been up all night. He was tired. So he told his father, I need to go back home. His dad's like,

00:32:36.040 okay. Moroni appears again the very next day to him. And he goes and instantly tells his father.

00:32:40.900 His father's like, wow, this is amazing. But he eventually goes to the hill Cumorah to find where

00:32:47.220 the golden plates are, which would have been the Book of Mormon, right? And Moroni essentially

00:32:54.040 appears to him and says, you are not worthy enough to grab the plates. So Joseph Smith goes back to

00:33:00.260 the hill, same day, year after year, was never worthy to get the plates until he finds, moves

00:33:05.280 away, eventually finds Emma, marries Emma, comes back, and now he's worthy enough. He's married

00:33:10.100 to grab the plates from the Hill Cumorah. And then he translates supposed Book of Mormon from then

00:33:15.680 over a period of, I forget how long it took, maybe like a year. And there it goes. 1830 is the year

00:33:23.720 the Book of Mormon is actually published. But the question is, is were there plates? Did he actually

00:33:28.040 translate plates by looking at them? And the answer is no. He translated the plates, what is

00:33:33.520 found out by scrying. He was looking at a stone in a hat. You talked about the black, right? He

00:33:38.600 put a stone in a hat and he would close it off and look at just straight up blackness. But the 1.00

00:33:44.000 words would appear to him and he would have someone write down the words that were being

00:33:48.680 spoken. And also, I think just for social context, you know, cities and towns have associations. So

00:33:55.300 we are right outside of Austin. Like what is something that comes to mind with Austin? Like

00:33:59.920 What's the first thing that comes to mind?

00:34:00.840 You think, Austin, what comes to mind? 0.63

00:34:04.240 Demonic Democrats.

00:34:06.060 Okay, right. 0.80

00:34:07.020 Well, it's known as, for sure, like Liberal City.

00:34:09.180 Like, the one thing we were discussing, we were driving over here,

00:34:11.640 and I saw it 10 years ago, was the amount of homelessness.

00:34:16.600 Homelessness.

00:34:17.040 That's also Democrat. 0.70

00:34:18.260 Right.

00:34:19.020 Yeah.

00:34:20.500 Democrats and homeless people, but I repeat myself.

00:34:22.940 Yeah, we were discussing the assumption, like, you associate with San Francisco.

00:34:26.960 Knowing the state of the world right now,

00:34:28.460 we know the type of shape that a place like San Francisco is.

00:34:31.500 And so that's the association that comes to mind.

00:34:34.460 So the area, we're talking about Joseph Smith and his family,

00:34:38.880 but it's not just exclusive to them.

00:34:40.940 The demographic that they're living in

00:34:42.680 is a place called Palmyra, New York.

00:34:44.440 And if you actually look at any of the historical records

00:34:47.520 at the time, you had, it was just a plethora

00:34:51.320 of witchcraft and superstition,

00:34:53.980 all sorts of different false prophets were here and there. And there's a story of somebody who

00:35:00.220 was convinced that the Advent was going to happen on this particular day. They went out into the

00:35:03.660 woods right outside of Palmyra, New York. They're all dressed in white gowns, kind of waiting

00:35:07.900 for the Advent and the Ascension to come that came and went. And so there are all of these

00:35:12.780 different practices, just full of superstition. And in fact, what you end up even hearing,

00:35:19.460 And this was a matter of public record in the public newspapers.

00:35:22.480 There were rumors about potentially that there could have been plates that were outside somewhere right outside the city that maybe were from the Americas that could have been connected from the Israelites who may have come over to the Americas.

00:35:37.960 So you're actually seeing sort of this just rumors like a tabloids like talking about this.

00:35:44.360 So he takes and incorporates that story.

00:35:46.780 There is a book that was published.

00:35:48.280 View of the Hebrews.

00:35:48.620 Yeah, View of the Hebrews. I think his name was Ethan something or other. And this book,

00:35:55.560 View of the Hebrews, it propagates the same story that there is a portion of these Israelites that

00:36:00.640 made their way over to the Americas. And he kind of has this whole theory about all the South

00:36:05.920 Americans and that these are actually like an extension of the true Israel. And of course, 0.85

00:36:10.900 that's- Like the lost 10 tribes.

00:36:12.280 Yeah.

00:36:12.580 It was a common belief back then.

00:36:13.820 Right. So, this is, and Joseph Smith really, this is the premise that really gets opened up right

00:36:19.000 away in the Book of Mormon. And then you also have Jesus who comes to the Americas.

00:36:25.100 And that's what's so fascinating is that, you know, even for me, the very first time I read

00:36:30.260 the Book of Mormon, it's like, wait a minute, I'm seeing Jesus ascend down to the Americas.

00:36:36.040 So, he basically, he didn't ascend, we all know the ascension, he didn't go and sit at the right

00:36:40.680 hand of the Father. No, he sort of ascends, and he kind of just works his way over. He takes a

00:36:46.340 one-way charter flight to the Americas, and he just comes down, and he decides to speak the

00:36:52.920 Sermon on the Mount. Now, given that Joseph Smith, he believed that these places he found were in

00:36:57.780 Reformed Egyptian, there's no etymologist who would even ascribe that such a language even exists.

00:37:04.220 This is a language that Joseph Smith made up, and he allocates that Jesus came down,

00:37:09.900 and this is before the King James Bible even existed. And from Reformed Egyptian,

00:37:14.620 he translates the Sermon on the Mount in perfect King James English.

00:37:20.260 Is there anything that's kind of off with this as far as that? There's something that's off

00:37:25.520 as far as a time-wise. How do you translate something into a language before that translation

00:37:31.220 even exists? So, you have that. So, what you end up seeing when you start to see

00:37:38.600 all of Joseph Smith's stories. Again, he would be somebody who would be, like, he was a pagan. 0.59

00:37:44.760 He was somebody who was involved in occultive practices. So, he not only was a liar and a 0.99

00:37:50.720 con man, and he was manipulative, but he also was a syncretist, just like the pagans are. So, 0.99

00:37:56.080 he would take a little bit of here, a little bit of that, and a little bit of that. So,

00:37:59.200 he would take some of the folklore. He would take the superstitious interests that his neighbors

00:38:05.500 and community would have. He would take the tabloids and he would take these other views

00:38:10.220 and he figured out a way to incorporate it all together. And also, not only that, he would give

00:38:16.140 the full accolades to himself, but these were his specific revelations. And so, that's kind of what

00:38:22.940 you see as far as the very early origins of Mormonism. He had this very charismatic following,

00:38:29.260 And, and, but it, and then as, but as he progressed and has, he worked his way out towards, um, as he advanced his way out West, you know, there was areas of persecution and conflict that came there.

00:38:40.520 Uh, it's a, it is a wild ride.

00:38:42.960 It is a wild ride.

00:38:43.720 So we've done, I've done two seasons so far called a slow burn of Mormon history.

00:38:48.040 It's only available on Coltish All Access.

00:38:49.920 You can get it on Apologia Studios.

00:38:51.480 The first 10 episodes are up.

00:38:52.880 So just the first season is up and we only went like four years or five years into Joseph Smith history.

00:38:58.700 It's going to take a while to get through all of it.

00:39:00.580 It is an absolute wild ride.

00:39:02.220 Starts off in Palmyra, gets down into Kirtland, Ohio, because Sidney Rigdon, who was once

00:39:07.340 a Church of Christ member, friend of Alexander Campbell, actually had a disagreement with

00:39:12.000 Alexander Campbell, had his own little commune in Kirtland, and he gets converted to Mormonism.

00:39:18.700 And so Palmyra group goes down to Kirtland.

00:39:20.760 They kind of like live in a Goshen area off of Kirtland because they don't blend perfectly

00:39:24.600 with Sidney Rigdon's group.

00:39:25.760 Going to give just like a really fast overview.

00:39:28.160 So Joseph gets a revelation that this group now needs to move to Independence, Missouri,

00:39:34.240 which is the promised land, like essentially like a Garden of Eden.

00:39:38.420 And from there, there's just all kinds of crazy stuff happens.

00:39:42.740 Ends up where Joseph Smith, because there's so much conflict going on in Missouri,

00:39:48.860 they end up moving to Illinois and Joseph Smith ends up dying later in like the 1840s.

00:39:55.400 But in between those times, his theology was constantly changing, right?

00:40:00.360 So within the Book of Mormon, you find a modalistic God that then changes.

00:40:04.780 There's no Trinity.

00:40:05.600 Sometimes people like to say, well, the Trinity is in the Book of Mormon.

00:40:07.540 No, it's modalism.

00:40:08.680 It says that the Father is the Son very clearly.

00:40:11.560 Define, I'm aware, but for the listener, not everybody is familiar.

00:40:15.760 What's modalism?

00:40:16.840 Yeah.

00:40:17.360 So modalism, Patrick, is that God revealed himself as the Father,

00:40:24.460 let's say, in the Old Testament, and coming with the flesh, he reveals himself as now the Son,

00:40:31.200 like God wears masks or takes modes, essentially. Then after God the Son,

00:40:35.260 he reveals himself as the Holy Spirit that indwells his followers. So God has forms and modes.

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00:41:53.580 It would, exactly, yeah, it would be like, so it's always kind of risky, and I would suggest

00:42:02.280 not doing it, but to give illustrations or analogies for the Trinity, because they all

00:42:08.300 break apart, you know, so like partialism would be like, you know, the God, you know, the Trinity

00:42:13.260 is like a three-leaf clover, right? But no, but that a three-leaf clover, that would mean that,

00:42:18.100 you know, the father is a third of God and the son, you know, so it's partialism. So it's, you

00:42:24.080 know, one, one Trinity, but each of the three persons only make up a portion of the Godhead.

00:42:31.440 Whereas modalism is different. The analogy that equates to modalism, people think, oh, this is a

00:42:36.720 good analogy for the Trinity. And it's not because what it really illustrates is modalism and not

00:42:42.100 biblical trinitarian doctrine would be h2o water so saying you know well water it's the same

00:42:50.420 molecule but it can exist in three modes or forms right you have water ice and steam and the trinity

00:42:57.940 is like that no it's not because that that would be the same h2o molecule but um not simultaneously

00:43:06.100 eternally and simultaneously existing. But one molecule that is shifting, it's heated up enough

00:43:14.840 to where now it's steam, and then it's cooled down. Now it's liquid, right? So like steam,

00:43:20.580 liquid, ice, you know, solid. And now it's cooled down even further. Now it's ice. That is not the

00:43:27.500 biblical doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is not that there was God the Father, then He became

00:43:33.480 God, the son, and then he became God, the Holy spirit. Instead, what we see in scripture in the

00:43:40.380 beginning was the word and the word was with God. So you have two persons simultaneously and

00:43:47.400 eternally in eternity past right there. And then further from John one, and then you can get into

00:43:54.180 like the baptism of Jesus is a great picture of simultaneously all three persons represented.

00:44:00.620 the Father is speaking, the Spirit is descending, and the Son is there being baptized. And it's not

00:44:07.500 the Father, and then He shifts into the Spirit descending as a dove that then manifests as the

00:44:15.100 Son of the Son is standing there the whole time as the Father is speaking and as the Spirit is

00:44:19.920 descending. They're all three simultaneously existing as three distinct persons, but with

00:44:25.940 one divine essence. Amen. That's right. And so what we find with Joseph Smith's theology,

00:44:30.840 because we'll get into some of that right now, I think it's very important for the listener to

00:44:33.700 understand, well, what do Mormons even believe today? Just like that was like kind of like

00:44:37.140 history in a nutshell, shotgun version of Mormon history. There's so much more.

00:44:42.640 But you're saying doctrine, in terms of their Trinitarian doctrine, they are modalist.

00:44:47.020 Well, they were at one point, not anymore. No, no, no, no. So they actually...

00:44:52.020 Because now they would deny the deity of...

00:44:54.300 Right, yeah.

00:44:55.320 So what happens is we have the Book of Mormon,

00:44:57.580 which is supposed to be the truest of all true books on earth. 0.54

00:44:59.800 Okay?

00:45:00.340 But that's actually not enough.

00:45:01.780 That's not enough revelation.

00:45:03.040 Joseph Smith gives something called the King Follett Discourse.

00:45:06.480 And in the King Follett Discourse sermon,

00:45:08.920 which was given after the death of King Follett,

00:45:12.500 which is not an actual king, it's a name.

00:45:15.960 What happens is he states this.

00:45:18.120 He says, no one has ever given the revelation

00:45:20.380 that I'm about to give. The knowledge that we have of God as of today is considered to that

00:45:25.620 of the beasts. So when he says this, he's saying, not even Jesus Christ gave you the revelation of

00:45:30.400 God that's sufficient. He's also saying, not even the book of Mormon is sufficient for you.

00:45:35.040 And then he continues to say, we have all got to learn to become gods. As man is, God once was,

00:45:41.420 and as God is, man may become. That's the Lorenzo Snow couplet, who was a prophet of Mormonism,

00:45:45.840 that summarizes the King Follett discourse.

00:45:49.360 We have all got to learn to become gods.

00:45:51.680 God the Father was once a man

00:45:54.360 who learned to become a god.

00:45:56.920 As you can see, that's totally different theology

00:45:58.600 than you can even grab from the Book of Mormon.

00:46:00.760 And he has supplemental revelation for that

00:46:04.220 in the Pearl of Great Price, right?

00:46:06.260 And the Book of Abraham.

00:46:07.640 But what else, Jerry?

00:46:09.140 Yeah, well, just give me an example,

00:46:10.740 like one aspect of both syncretism

00:46:12.300 and continued revelation

00:46:13.420 and the involvement of justices in theology

00:46:15.220 that there were just some instances regarding just to happen as challenges that you had as a brand new and aspiring cult leader.

00:46:23.540 You know, you don't always hit the ground running.

00:46:26.180 There's a couple of hiccups that basically it was a point to where there were a lot of loyal followers who were beginning to really question Joseph.

00:46:34.760 And so, the amount of people who would be considered true believers, like, he was kind of, he needed to pull off something big to get people to continue to follow with him because there was a lot of, you know, persecution going on at that time against those who were Latter-day Saints, as you would call them.

00:46:55.420 And what ended up happening is that there was a huge fascination at the time in Egyptology

00:47:01.680 and in a different Egyptian artifact.

00:47:04.700 So, there was a person that sort of had this sort of caravan and display of, you'd kind

00:47:10.280 of go those people, like you've seen in old westerns, they kind of go through and they've

00:47:13.240 got a whole showmanship of display.

00:47:15.900 Hey, I have all these things from Egypt or wherever.

00:47:19.100 And this comes across Joseph Smith and he's brought to it and he's fascinated by it.

00:47:23.780 And so, he buys all these amounts.

00:47:27.040 He uses the church's money, and he buys all of these Egyptian artifacts.

00:47:31.500 And then he comes to a revelation that I've discovered the lost books of Abraham.

00:47:36.280 And he goes, he then proceeds on to translate that.

00:47:39.420 Now, given this is before the Rosetta Stone, you know, is discovered, and there's a true

00:47:43.980 way to understand and interpret the papyrus, he believes he found, and you can see the

00:47:50.040 manuscripts, the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price to this day. And he believes that it

00:47:56.640 indicates the book of Abraham. This is a lost book of Abraham that happened when he was over

00:48:00.680 in Egypt. And I'll give you a super cliff notes version is that they believe that after Joseph

00:48:07.880 Smith was killed, that I believe that those books, those possessions, as far as the translations

00:48:15.100 that Joseph Smith had, they went into, there's a fragmentation between Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's

00:48:20.860 original wife, and Brigham Young. So, you have the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day

00:48:24.940 Saints, and then you have Brigham Young's group that eventually went and migrated in Utah, where

00:48:29.920 you have a church planet. And everyone had thought that those were lost, that there's no way to have

00:48:36.880 found them. So, of course, you know, the Rosetta Stone then, you know, not too long after this

00:48:41.760 incident happened after Joseph Smith died, that is discovered, and now there's actually a way to

00:48:45.980 understand and to translate these Egyptian manuscripts. So, those items, those artifacts

00:48:53.500 that Joseph Smith translated went to this museum in Chicago, and many people thought that these

00:48:59.540 documents were destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire. Now, later on, what she ended up finding

00:49:06.160 it's in the 1940s or 1950s. And sometime around that time, I don't have the exact name off the

00:49:11.840 top of my head, but there is somebody who is working in this museum. And all of a sudden,

00:49:17.080 it's like, wait a minute, that looks familiar. And lo and behold, they recognize this as the

00:49:23.100 original documents that Joseph Smith would have translated. So at that time, this, the LDS church

00:49:29.980 was ecstatic about it. It was all over Inside Magazine. They were excited because like,

00:49:35.600 this is going to vindicate before the world that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. I mean,

00:49:40.840 this was the talk of the town, as they were very, very public about it. Well,

00:49:47.180 after a while, they became very, very quiet about it, and it just sort of became,

00:49:51.720 they just sort of moved on with it. And the reason being is that they found out that this was indeed

00:49:56.540 not the book of lost book of Abraham, that in fact, this was an occultic Egyptian funerary text

00:50:04.300 from is Osiris. The Book of Breathings. The Book of Breathings. And so, it was really

00:50:09.320 the actual facsimile. The original facsimile, if you look at it in the Pearl of Great Price,

00:50:17.240 it's supposed to have Abraham laying down with his hand up, like reaching his hands up to God.

00:50:22.420 But in reality, Joseph Smith took this missing fragment and drew it in. The original facsimile

00:50:31.080 that they were able to connect this to is actually very sexually explicit. It's actually an Egyptian 1.00

00:50:39.160 god that is grabbing its own phallus and is performing a sexual favor. So, it is something 0.99

00:50:47.820 that is not what it said. Joseph Smith took, for example, he took something that would have been

00:50:52.500 one word in Egyptology to translate through his head of stone, and he puts two or three paragraphs

00:50:56.960 out of it. There's a great book. I don't know if it's still published anymore, but it's called

00:51:00.700 upon his own hands. And it goes through. It has photographs of the actual documents. So what you

00:51:06.100 end up seeing is something that is a piece of con man. Like, this is him being a con man. And

00:51:18.260 there might have been the level of narcissism where he truly believed what he believed. You

00:51:23.040 know, those people who end up lying so much, they truly believe their own lies. That could have been

00:51:27.160 what happened. But what you end up seeing when it comes to Mormon history is that there is a saying

00:51:32.900 that says, wisdom is justified by her own children, or sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the

00:51:38.020 tree when you actually see descendants of several generations imitating that. So, you end up later

00:51:44.360 in the 1900s, you also have someone by the name of Mark Hoffman, who was depicted in this Netflix

00:51:49.800 documentary called Murder Among the Mormons, and he was an expert forger of documents. He ends up

00:51:55.840 conning the LDS Church into believing that he had specialized documents from them.

00:52:01.840 And then as he, in this whole story, as he got exposed, he tried to set up some pipe bombs to

00:52:08.800 kill people, which actually happened. And so, you have this dichotomy within Mormonism right now,

00:52:15.680 where Mormonism has gone through from being very objective, believing in Joseph Smith,

00:52:20.560 that this is objectively, all the churches were apostate, and that now we have a new revealed

00:52:27.340 truth through Joseph Smith, through his private revelations, and then through the continued

00:52:31.000 prophets. There's always a representative of Mormonism, where now, just in the last 20 to 30

00:52:38.100 years, they've gone through this postmodern shift where they become more progressive, more liberal,

00:52:43.120 more universalistic where they were before they would adhere to this very, um, uh, distinctive

00:52:49.660 entire, like, Hey, we're, we are the true church. You are all false to being very universalistic,

00:52:55.060 very Unitarian. Like, Hey, we're all Christians. We're all in this together. You know, like they

00:52:59.120 won't go and condemn people where they used to be a very objective before. And so it ends up

00:53:02.940 happening. You were telling me this the other night, um, when we watched under the banner of

00:53:06.580 heaven, when you see people who are radicalists, like the Lafferty brothers who, who committed

00:53:12.440 murderers or someone like Warren Jeffs, they're actually a lot more consistent with the, they're

00:53:18.300 a consistent, uh, Mormon versus the modern day Mormons. So what you're having right now is you

00:53:24.260 have the modern day LDS church, which is becoming a lot more progressive, uh, downtown Salt Lake

00:53:28.980 around June, like it's pride flag central everywhere. And now it's pride, whatever the

00:53:34.580 transgenic stripe of the week is. Um, and so you, so you have that, but then you have this

00:53:39.760 dichotomy between the younger generation, the older generation, but also the church becoming

00:53:45.080 a lot more progressive. But as that happens, that is radicalizing the fundamentalist Mormons,

00:53:51.540 who actually are a lot more, I would call me, orthodox Mormons. And now what they're doing,

00:53:57.520 they're arguing that the original church that Joseph restored has gone apostate,

00:54:02.500 and the restoration needs a restoration. So, it almost becomes kind of like a,

00:54:07.620 it's circular. It's almost one is where it's almost like this karmic cycle going on. So it's

00:54:13.640 a fascinating thing to unravel. It's going to be very interesting to see where the Mormon church 0.69

00:54:17.560 goes in the next several decades. I know. Wow. I thought we were going to be able to handle all

00:54:22.460 of their theology within an episode, but I guess not. Man, I want to give a Cliff Notes version,

00:54:28.260 but I don't want to leave anyone confused. But Mormonism, Paul warns about the belief of not

00:54:37.440 specifically Mormonism, but what the tenants are essentially in 2 Corinthians 11 verse 4,

00:54:42.220 Paul warns that there will be people who are these false super apostles who come in to the church

00:54:46.780 and they preach a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit. So let me just,

00:54:51.560 in a nutshell, explain that with regards to Mormonism, how their Jesus is different,

00:54:56.340 how their gospel is different, and how their spirit is different. Yeah, that'd be helpful.

00:54:59.720 Yeah, that'd be helpful. So Jesus, according to Mormonism, is the firstborn literal spiritual son

00:55:06.380 of Elohim, who is God, and heavenly mother. We won't get into the conversation if it's

00:55:11.540 heavenly mothers in plural. We'll just say for the sake of conversation today, Elohim and heavenly

00:55:16.760 mother. He's the firstborn, meaning that he is not the eternal God, okay? Number one, he is a created

00:55:22.540 being, right? What do we know about Jesus? John chapter one, in the beginning was the word. The

00:55:27.380 word was with God. The word was God. All things were created through him. There was nothing that

00:55:31.140 came into being unless it was created through Jesus. Colossians 1, 16, Jesus Christ created

00:55:35.740 all things on heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. We find a blatant contradiction because

00:55:41.460 the Jesus Christ of Mormonism did not create Lucifer. He's the brother of Lucifer. The Bible 0.99

00:55:48.000 says, no, he did. He made things that are visible and invisible. So if we have a different Jesus,

00:55:54.060 we're going to end up also getting a different gospel. That's just the reality of it. So the

00:55:58.340 gospel in Mormonism is the third article of faith. Do you know it off the top of your head?

00:56:01.640 um the third article of faith which is that we believe that through the atonement of christ

00:56:07.720 all mankind may be saved but by continued obedience to the laws and ordinances of the

00:56:13.220 gospel see he knows it man jerry's been doing this stuff for years absolutely so where's the

00:56:17.540 false gospel there um the second part uh well actually even the first part too right because

00:56:25.000 it is in a sense they are universalistic so they when they say atonement what they believe that

00:56:30.720 the Atonement entails is not God's elect, God's chosen people, but what they believe

00:56:36.060 is that the Atonement, the only thing that the Atonement guarantees, excise for ex-Mormons,

00:56:41.120 is the basic general guarantee to be resurrected on the last day.

00:56:45.820 But since there are three levels of heaven, the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial

00:56:52.000 and terrestrial kingdom, is that depending on how obedient you are, if you are a loyal

00:56:57.600 Mormon, to whom much is given, much is required, how obedient you are, whether you are sealed in

00:57:03.340 a temple marriage for a time and eternity, whether or not you are consistently a tither and a giver, 0.71

00:57:08.760 because in order to do what is in the temple, to do baptisms for the dead, you have to have a temple

00:57:13.380 recommend, which is approved by your bishop. And one of the ways they tell whether or not you are

00:57:18.680 temple worthy is based off of your income that you are tithing. That's one of the main ways they

00:57:24.220 sea? Are you adhering, are you drinking coffee? Are you, are you smoking? Are you adhering to

00:57:28.480 the word of wisdom? And so, a lot of it really entails a bit, you know, the obedience of laws

00:57:34.020 and orders of the gospel. But again, the biggest thing when it comes to Mormonism is scaling the

00:57:40.800 language barrier. So, and this would be applicable to whether it's Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian

00:57:45.640 science, is that they will always cloak Christian terminology. And so, one of the things like

00:57:52.100 Walter Martin would talk about in his book, Kingdom of the Cult, is understanding what do

00:57:57.020 they mean when they say Jesus? What do they mean when they say salvation? Because when we hear

00:58:03.340 that article of faith, that sounds mostly orthodox. Good, the last part does sound 0.60

00:58:08.280 somewhat reasonably suspicious, but just the word atonement. We've said that word throughout

00:58:13.800 our conversation. They say they mean something entirely different. This is the groundworking to

00:58:20.000 become a god one day if you are worthy enough to attain the celestial kingdom.

00:58:25.680 Yep. So damnation to an LDS individual is stopping progression. Remember the goal, 0.94

00:58:32.920 salvation, true salvation to an LDS individual is to become a god one day yourself, right? To be in

00:58:37.960 the celestial kingdom. Damnation is not getting there, right? So in LDS theology, the only people

00:58:45.060 that go to their hell or outer darkness would be demons and apostate Mormons. The devil, the demons 1.00

00:58:51.940 and apostate Mormons. So yeah, I mean, there we go. The gospel to them is that through obedience 1.00

00:58:58.560 to the gospel ordinances and principles that one day they will get to the celestial kingdom.

00:59:03.380 And the sad reality is this doctrine and covenants, 82, seven tells you that if you repent,

00:59:08.940 but commit the same sin again, or just sin again, all of your former sins are placed back on you.

00:59:15.060 And the Bible verse that they cite for this

00:59:16.880 is the cleansing of the unregenerate person of demons

00:59:21.480 where they'll leave and they'll come back with seven more.

00:59:25.300 There's no way out of it, right?

00:59:27.060 But they use that not in terms of demonic oppression

00:59:30.000 or possession, but they're using that

00:59:31.640 in terms of like justification.

00:59:34.460 Yeah.

00:59:34.680 Like you got it and then it goes away.

00:59:37.060 Yeah.

00:59:37.300 Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect

00:59:40.020 is a command to them.

00:59:41.640 And in Nephi, it says,

00:59:42.800 there's no commandment given to men

00:59:44.040 that they cannot follow.

00:59:45.720 Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

00:59:48.300 So sinless perfectionism.

00:59:49.720 They believe sinless perfectionism in this life,

00:59:52.780 that it is a state that is attainable,

00:59:55.580 but not only that it's possible,

00:59:57.080 but you must.

00:59:59.380 Yeah.

00:59:59.780 You must attain it.

01:00:01.080 Not only you can, but you must.

01:00:02.820 Yeah, Spencer W. Kimball in his book,

01:00:04.400 The Miracle of Forgiveness.

01:00:05.340 Again, this isn't their canon,

01:00:06.420 but he was a prophet of their church,

01:00:07.860 a president of their church.

01:00:09.180 He stated that you are God's an embryo.

01:00:11.400 You must become perfect.

01:00:13.560 He interpreted Moroni 10.32 and 2 Nephi 25.23

01:00:16.700 to state that, yes, in this life

01:00:21.160 is the life that you have to prepare to meet God.

01:00:24.080 It's not do the best that you can

01:00:26.040 and God makes up the rest

01:00:27.200 in order to reach celestial godhood.

01:00:28.500 It says, no, your covenant path

01:00:30.440 is that you can do it today.

01:00:32.440 And you may anticipate, I'm not Superman.

01:00:34.320 He says, no, you're a God, an embryo, it's even better.

01:00:37.740 And I'll give you one example too 0.73

01:00:39.520 of how Mormonism makes categorical distinctions between even how men and women are viewed as far

01:00:45.940 as salvation goes. I mean, we know that, you know, within the Gospel, the Apostle Paul says that

01:00:50.420 there's either Jew, no Greek, no male, no female, but all are one through Christ, paraphrasing that.

01:00:57.060 But one of the areas, when it comes to salvation, the distinction between men and women is that, 0.60

01:01:02.120 again, part of obtaining the celestial kingdom is to obtain a marriage in the temple, to be married

01:01:06.840 for all time and eternity. During the marriage ceremony inside the temple, there is a secret name

01:01:13.840 that is given to the man, and this name is the name given to the man in which he is to call up

01:01:20.100 his wife on the last day. And this happens in every single temple ceremony when it comes to

01:01:26.880 a celestial temple marriage. And so, really, what you end up seeing, what's carried into

01:01:33.680 the Mormon marriage, according to the Mormon woman, is this unknowing pressure that it's her

01:01:40.320 salvation is contingent upon whether or not her husband would call her up on the last day.

01:01:48.640 And she doesn't know what this name is. And then, like, imagine what does that mean

01:01:51.820 as far as sociological control, like if a divorce happens, or if she begins to question, say,

01:02:00.780 She might be one of the many people, say, at General Conference this last week, she just grabs a track, stuffs it in her purse, maybe because she just, you know, maybe one of her kids grabbed it from us, and she grabs her kid, puts it in her purse, goes and reads it later.

01:02:14.760 All of a sudden, now, she's thinking, it's not just, I might lose my family, but now, if my husband leaves me, how am I going to be called up on the last day?

01:02:27.280 And what is, you know, what's the claim?

01:02:30.540 And also, that claim is antithetical, it's antichrist, because the only person that has the authority to call anyone up on the last day is the Lord Jesus Christ.

01:02:40.480 In John 6, 44, I mean, we know that is a great—

01:02:42.940 All those that Father gave to me, I will raise them.

01:02:45.380 Yes, I mean, we know that is discussed.

01:02:48.420 I mean, Pastor James has had, you know, he may have had a conversation or two of the Layton Flowers about that.

01:02:53.320 another conversation. But you see in that instance, and that's actually something when

01:02:59.940 it comes to, depending on who I'm engaging, if I am talking to someone who is a sister missionary,

01:03:06.600 I will bring that up. And that is something that they don't see happening. So, I would say,

01:03:12.120 if you're in an instance where if you have a friend who is, say you have a close friend or

01:03:16.940 neighbor, or if you're dealing with sister missionaries, bring that up because they know

01:03:21.840 what that is. They're taught from a very young age, especially the women, that their salvation

01:03:28.840 is contingent upon being married. In fact, there is a song that I remember, I went to a high school

01:03:35.100 that was 90% Mormon, and this song is called Mormon Boy. And this is something that all of

01:03:40.300 the young girls are taught to sing. And the lyrics basically say, I know a Mormon boy,

01:03:46.360 He is my pride and joy. And then it goes on to say, one day I'll be his wife. We'll have eternal

01:03:52.380 life. Oh, how I love my Mormon boy. And so eventually, like these girls are being indoctrinated

01:03:57.740 to believe that eternal life is contingent upon marrying a handsome Mormon man who, you know,

01:04:05.080 they go on a, usually they'll go on the two-year mission and usually right when they get back,

01:04:09.180 they'll do that. So yeah, it's a, it is, it is quite amazing.

01:04:13.420 It's funny because they would claim to believe the Bible plus the Book of Mormon, but that's a complete contradiction with, I'm thinking of like 1 Corinthians chapter 7, not to mention elsewhere, you know, co-heirs of grace, both the, you know, the male and female, the husband and wife.

01:04:27.420 but um first corinthians 7 especially you know first peter 3 like talks about it you know that 0.53

01:04:33.480 um you know uh for the the christian wife who is yoked with an unbelieving husband

01:04:40.580 uh it doesn't say you know and so you're out of luck it talks about how you know you can win him 0.55

01:04:47.260 over uh with you know without a word with a quiet and gentle spirit but the whole the whole idea is

01:04:52.380 like that um you might be used in the province of god jesus ultimately would be the savior

01:04:57.280 but he may use you as an instrument in his providence to bring about salvation to your

01:05:01.680 husband. Whereas the book of Mormon would flip it on its head and say, um, if, if your husband

01:05:06.820 ended up going apostate and denied the faith, not only can you not win him over, but like you,

01:05:12.100 you've already, you've lost your salvation too. First Corinthians seven, like, um, would be the

01:05:16.680 proof text that we would use for, you know, how do you know, oh, believing wife, whether or not

01:05:20.680 you can save your husband, or how do you know, believing your husband, whether or not you can

01:05:24.000 save your wife. But, but then Paul, you know, he concludes his argument saying that if you are

01:05:29.660 married, whether you're the woman or the man, if you are married to an unbeliever and they agree 0.62

01:05:35.260 to remain with you, then remain with them. There's no basis there that says like, if you're a woman 0.89

01:05:42.160 and you're married to an unbelieving husband, then, then salvation is outside of your grasp.

01:05:47.520 instead it's like paul just clearly you know uh just assumes that uh that if you're a believer

01:05:54.620 whether you be male or female if you're you know if you're a believer and you're the wife but your

01:05:59.460 husband has denied the faith it was never saved to begin with um he doesn't even begin to call

01:06:04.120 into question right the wife's salvation the only thing that uh that he the only question he even

01:06:09.560 attempts to answer is um not whether or not the wife is saved but what should she do how then

01:06:15.020 should she live? Like, does she remain with her husband or does she, you know, X, Y, and Z? And

01:06:19.520 then 1 Peter, same thing. 1 Peter 3 is like, addresses, you know, how could you maybe be

01:06:24.840 used in the problems of God to win over your husband? But neither Peter nor Paul, under the

01:06:29.080 inspiration of the Spirit, in dealing with a Christian wife yoked to an unbelieving husband,

01:06:34.940 neither of them even posit the question of whether or not that has any basis on the wife's

01:06:40.980 salvation. That's both just a giant, you know, resounding, no duh. Of course, she's still saved.

01:06:47.440 Yeah. That's why it's good to know your Bible, right? Because these cults, what they'll do is

01:06:52.760 they'll teach people. I mean, these young Mormon men and the women go to something called seminary 0.85

01:06:57.220 every morning before school while they're in high school, and they're learning specific topics

01:07:02.040 and things from the Bible, but in terms of proof texting, right? So, if you're in a conversation

01:07:07.720 with an LDS individual, it'd be great to have them open their own Bible and have them read it

01:07:12.140 for themselves, asking them questions, right? Like when we're talking with an LDS individual,

01:07:16.680 they're trained to answer questions. So a good way to have a conversation with them is very

01:07:21.280 questions-based. I know for me personally, when I've been having conversations in the street,

01:07:25.260 I've been asking, well, what is the gospel? What's the gospel? Very simple question. And what you'll

01:07:30.080 find most of the time, I don't think I've had any other answer. Honestly, it says, well, Jesus Christ

01:07:34.560 made it possible for me to obey his commands. That's the gospel. And so it's easy then as a

01:07:40.860 Christian though, to help them think through what the actual biblical gospel is, to tell them what

01:07:44.500 the true good news is, and then tell them their news and very honestly ask them now, which one

01:07:48.660 sounds better? Which one sounds better, right? So like in Ephesians chapter one, which is a very

01:07:53.480 helpful text to have an LDS person read in front of you and go through it with them. It states that

01:07:57.620 I'm, I have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places through my belief alone in Jesus

01:08:03.920 Christ in which I'm sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, who is my pledge of my inheritance

01:08:08.900 to come? Through what? My belief. Not through X, Y, and Z ordinance, but in my belief alone

01:08:16.580 in Jesus Christ, I'm justified and given what? Every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

01:08:21.860 So when we're thinking about the LDS individual, they've got a lot of baggage behind them. But

01:08:28.060 when we're scaling that language barrier and having a conversation with them and showing

01:08:32.600 them who the Jesus Christ of the Bible is, when we give them the gospel, they won't just

01:08:36.640 automatically sort that through their schema. They'll hear it through the lens of scripture.

01:08:42.240 And that's what we want. So hopefully the Lord will illuminate their heart and bring them to

01:08:46.520 repentance and a saving faith. Amen. All right. Well, thanks for tuning in for this episode. And

01:08:52.120 by this point, you've probably seen some of the other episodes, but just in case you're tuning

01:08:56.760 in for the first time, this is just one episode in a series, a 10 part series, and it's not all

01:09:02.080 dealing with Mormonism. This is kind of a 30,000 foot view, just getting just quick shots. One

01:09:09.640 episode, you could do hundreds of episodes just on Mormonism. So this is one on Mormonism. We've

01:09:15.120 got one on Jehovah's Witnesses. We've got one on Scientology. We've got one on the astral realm 0.98

01:09:23.540 and DMT and the divine feminine and all these different things. So this is just kind of a big

01:09:28.580 overview, 10-part series on different false religions and cults, and it's meant to be an

01:09:34.780 overview. It's meant to be a broad brush, synopsis, snapshot, big picture overview. So if you haven't

01:09:42.240 watched some of the other episodes, we encourage you to go back, check them out, and you'll find

01:09:47.340 that we're giving an overview of each of these individual cults and false religions, but they

01:09:52.560 all share some basic common denominators. There's a lot of bad theology that is common throughout

01:10:01.040 all of them that they all have in common. And if you start to pick up on some of those building

01:10:06.040 blocks, it will help you when you encounter other cults. Oh, I know what that is. I see what's going

01:10:11.980 on. And I see ultimately how that's a post description. I know how to address that from

01:10:17.280 the Bible. So check out the series as a whole. And most of the episodes, by the time you're

01:10:22.080 listening to this, this is one of the latter episodes, not Latter-day Saints, but latter

01:10:26.060 episodes. And so they're just about all out, but we do have some bonus material that we're going

01:10:33.220 to be producing some live Q&As. And so if you want to actually engage us live with some questions

01:10:41.140 and answers about maybe you have a family member or a friend or a loved one in a cult, and you have

01:10:45.900 a specific question about Mormonism or about Jehovah's Witness or whatever it might be,

01:10:51.400 then I encourage you to join us on Patreon

01:10:54.120 because we're going to be doing three live Q&A sessions

01:10:59.080 with all of our Patreon members as a follow-up from this series.

01:11:02.740 So after you've listened to all the episodes

01:11:04.300 and you've kind of formulated in your mind

01:11:06.900 what your specific questions are

01:11:08.840 and things that you would like to be able to personally ask one of us,

01:11:13.880 we're going to make time for that.

01:11:15.720 And so I encourage you to go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.

01:11:21.660 You can sign up for the Patreon and you'll see, we'll post some things about the schedule

01:11:25.860 when we're doing these Q&As.

01:11:27.160 We're going to do three of them.

01:11:28.400 So if you miss one, hopefully you can make at least one of those three.

01:11:31.680 So thanks for tuning in.

01:11:32.900 We hope that this has been helpful.

01:11:34.460 And if you have a friend or a loved one, a family member who is caught up in the cult

01:11:40.460 of Mormonism, our prayers are with you.

01:11:43.280 And we hope that God in his providence and mercy

01:11:46.120 would use the tools that have been relayed

01:11:49.100 by Andrew and Jeremiah in this episode

01:11:51.240 to equip you to be God's instrument

01:11:54.700 and an ambassador for Christ,

01:11:56.700 the true Christ of the Bible, 0.98

01:11:58.180 and that God would use you to get that person out

01:12:00.880 and to get them out of the cult and into Christ.

01:12:04.320 All right, thanks for tuning in.

01:12:05.420 Real quick before you go,

01:12:06.740 we hope that you enjoyed the episode

01:12:08.280 and we hope that you're eager for more.

01:12:10.500 However, as I already said,

01:12:12.360 these will be slow dripping out over the course of weeks and even a few months, but not to worry

01:12:18.500 if you want to be able to watch all 10 of these episodes right now, ad free. All you got to do

01:12:25.320 is join us as a silver tier member over on patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.

01:12:32.820 God bless.

The NXR Podcast - August 30, 2024

THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Mormonism with Cultish

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