The NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Nominal Christianity And “The Blessing Of Hypocrisy”

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00:00:30.000 All right, welcome back. This is episode six now in a 10-part series. We're talking about

00:00:50.160 all things Christian nationalism, and even more broadly than that, my name is Joel Webbin. I'm

00:00:54.720 here with Dr. Stephen Wolfe. And today's episode, which I really am excited about, I think it'll be

00:01:00.560 a doozy, is focusing on Christian culture or cultural Christianity. And I thought maybe right

00:01:07.040 out of the gate, I'm a Baptist. Stephen is Presbyterian. But even as a Baptist, I would be

00:01:13.600 remiss if I missed an opportunity to dunk on Baptist. So when it comes to cultural Christianity,

00:01:20.200 it's funny. There's kind of your nominal Baptist, which would make up the vast

00:01:24.420 majority, think of like Rick Warren and the, you know, Bill Hybels and the secret sensitive

00:01:28.080 movement of the nineties and those kinds of things. Um, they're very reliant on cultural

00:01:33.380 Christianity. Um, that there's just a, you could assume within the larger, you know, broader

00:01:39.400 culture, this nominal Christianity, that if you have, you know, enough programs and things like

00:01:45.420 that, that people will show up to your church. And then, you know, within kind of more of the

00:01:49.940 G3 or MacArthur world, Baptist with, you know, a little bit more of a theological robustness

00:01:57.120 and things like that. It's funny that within that crew, Reformed Baptist, of which I'm

00:02:03.280 technically a part of, it's funny that I was, you know, we were talking offline. There's this

00:02:08.440 weird dichotomy where on the one hand, the Reformed Baptist's greatest fear is sacralism or,

00:02:15.060 you know being persecuted uh not by the left not by atheists or communists but being persecuted by

00:02:21.620 anglicans or presbyterians or episcopate by fellow brothers in christ that they would

00:02:26.900 their greatest fear is that christians would actually be victorious and win and that you

00:02:31.200 would have a christian state and uh and even though baptists outnumber the presbyterians 10

00:02:36.860 to 1 somehow the baptists have such a loser mentality that they think that even with a 10

00:02:41.980 to one, you know, advantage, um, the Presbyterians, if we became a Christian nation would somehow still

00:02:47.580 be in charge and that the Baptist would be drowned. So on the one hand, the weird dichotomy is right

00:02:52.580 about the in charge part, not the job. Maybe not outnumbering, but the Presbyterians would still

00:02:57.280 be in charge. That's probably fair. Um, so on one hand there's the, like the Baptist, you know,

00:03:01.640 reformed Baptist greatest fear is, um, persecution from Christians. And on the other hand, it's also

00:03:07.500 like their, uh, their, their greatest fantasy, you know, it's like, like, you know, secretly in

00:03:13.120 their heart of hearts are like, if only, you know, I could, uh, I could be one day, you know,

00:03:18.640 thrown into a tiny hole by fellow believers, you know, because I, if, if I could only be John

00:03:23.820 Bunyan, you know, one day, uh, you know, because I, I was unlicensed to preach, you know, and I'll

00:03:29.460 write books, you know, for 12 years in my, my jail cell. And, and so it's, it's weird. So it's the

00:03:33.980 greatest fear and the greatest fantasy simultaneously. And that would be for the more,

00:03:37.260 you know, robust, theologically robust, you know, Reformed Baptists. And then, you know,

00:03:41.780 85, 90% of Baptists in America today, your Rick Warren purpose-driven life, you know,

00:03:46.720 nominal Baptists actually rely on Christian culture, cultural Christianity, so that they

00:03:52.140 can just assume a nominal Christianity within the larger populace that will drive people to show up

00:03:58.060 and sit in their pews. And so anyways, all that being said, from the Baptist side of the aisle,

00:04:03.140 um i i hear virtually um exclusively negative remarks when it comes to cultural christianity

00:04:12.660 i strongly disagree i think that it's a net positive and that's what we should talk about

00:04:19.100 today yeah i mean i think there's there's two positives to cultural christianity and so the

00:04:24.580 first one is that it it's a it's a it prepares people for faith that's the first one um when

00:04:31.460 you're in a very, if you're in a non-Christian environment, or let's say it's an atheistic or

00:04:36.520 type of practical atheistic environment, or it's one that's just straight up non-Christian,

00:04:42.840 you have to, when you do apologetics and you try to, you know, preach the gospel or you do

00:04:49.760 evangelism, you have to then, you have to get to a lot. You have to prove the existence of God.

00:04:55.140 There's a lot, in other words, that they have to come to accept. Whatever your apologetic method

00:04:58.440 it is they have to get to a lot whereas if you're in a cultural christian environment which i

00:05:03.440 basically live in as i in north carolina um they all believe in god um most people believe in

00:05:12.060 most of the propositions of faith so they would they would agree that christ is lord they would

00:05:16.860 agree with the gospel as they understand it they would have some rudimentary understanding of it

00:05:21.420 they'd be churched in some way maybe their grandparents read them the bible or they have

00:05:25.440 the Bible from their grandparents or parents. And so there's already that basic standard or

00:05:31.460 basic set of propositions that they're either affirm or they're open to affirming. And so from

00:05:37.220 there, you then say, well, you claim to be a Christian, well, you should go to church. Or if

00:05:43.460 you affirm these propositions, but you should actually affirm them by faith. Because as

00:05:48.900 Protestants, we believe that it's not enough just to affirm the propositions that you're saved by

00:05:55.140 faith, it's that you actually have to have exercised faith in that, faith in the person

00:05:59.900 who work in Jesus Christ. So they already have the first step, and now you just, you call them

00:06:05.140 in a way to faithfulness. If they were baptized as a child, or because they walked down the aisle

00:06:11.140 when they were 12 or 15, it's like, hey, you're baptized, now I'm calling you to faith, to honor

00:06:16.940 your baptism. That might be more Presbyterian understanding of baptism, but anyway,

00:06:21.640 and nevertheless you could say that hey you you you made this confession now honor that confession

00:06:29.920 right um believe in jesus by faith um that's already there you can't say remember okay

00:06:35.220 because it's hard to remember honor or remember yeah um can't say remember so i think if you were

00:06:40.020 three months old when it happened right exactly yeah sure um so that's the first one that's so

00:06:46.840 it creates environment when people are already prepared for faith and we do this baptists in

00:06:51.860 particular but everyone does this they prepare their children right uh whether it's for true

00:06:56.920 faith or they're maturing them in a very young faith it's you're preparing them for the fullness

00:07:01.440 of faith in your family life and so my argument is that we do in the family why can't the nation

00:07:07.380 do that as well um so that that's one side the other side is it just makes uh it's better for

00:07:13.480 them. Even nominal Christians tend to live better when they are in a Christian environment,

00:07:21.840 when it's normal to believe these things. They're going to adopt, not perfectly, but they're going

00:07:27.160 to adopt the general norm, the moral norms of Christianity, and that's going to be reflected

00:07:32.200 in society. So it's loving to them. It's also loving to their children. I mentioned in a

00:07:38.420 previous episode that you can have a father, like the Dutch Protestant tradition is reading your

00:07:43.460 Bible. So I think they'd have a little space that they'd put their Bible next to the table or under

00:07:48.720 the table or something like that. And they would have that tradition where you read the Bible. Now

00:07:52.880 the father might just be doing it out of a cultural norm. He may not actually believe,

00:07:57.840 but that act of doing that, reading the word to your children and to your wife, that's in a way

00:08:04.380 preaching the gospel through a nominal Christianity. So there are those goods that come along with

00:08:11.080 cultural Christianity that we shouldn't just dismiss. I mean, do you want to live, we'll get

00:08:17.380 to like hypocrisy and other things in a minute, but wouldn't it be better? Wouldn't you have a

00:08:21.860 better, more just society where you can appeal to these norms? Even as Christians, you can say,

00:08:28.720 you know, this is wrong because this is what the Word of God says. And even if they don't

00:08:34.620 fully grasp christ by faith that still has an appeal to them it's a way to correct and to have

00:08:42.460 a type of social discipline that is good for everyone well you'd have a more virtuous and

00:08:47.500 moral culture you'd have a more just um state and laws so it's a net positive um in that regard

00:08:56.460 outside of the realm of the church so to steal man the guys who are not fans of cultural christianity

00:09:02.700 who tend to be Reformed Baptist types. To steel man, I disagree with them, but to steel man their

00:09:08.320 argument, this is, I think, what they would say. They would say, well, yeah, generally, there would

00:09:12.020 be, you know, a general improvement in terms of judicial, you know, laws, customs, and there would

00:09:20.600 also be a general improvement in terms of culture. It'd be less degenerate. Hollywood wouldn't be

00:09:25.800 pumping out quite as terrible things, you know, and so they would say culturally and politically,

00:09:30.960 there would be a general improvement, net positive. Their concern, if I can be fair to

00:09:37.700 their arguments, would be, it'd be better for politics and culture, worse for the church.

00:09:43.180 And the line of logic goes something like this. They would say, with a cultural Christianity

00:09:49.040 across the board is going to equate to nominal Christianity, a rise in nominal Christianity.

00:09:54.020 Nominal Christianity, as it impacts the church, is going to be a theological

00:10:00.640 nominalism, um, means nominal seminaries training, uh, what will become nominal pastors with nominal

00:10:08.340 doctrine, nominal preaching to go to nominal churches. Um, and, and the whole result of it,

00:10:15.400 right? So net positive in the culture and in politics, but in the church, um,

00:10:21.760 the final result will be, uh, basically false assurance. That's the Baptist concern is it'll

00:10:28.100 be false assurance. It'll be a bunch of people with their consciences being assuaged wrongly

00:10:35.900 and being coaxed into thinking that they possess a salvation that objectively they don't. And

00:10:42.780 whereas, you know, if the culture and the state and, you know, outside of the church is hostile

00:10:48.420 towards Christianity, you'll have less churches, but you'll have the few, the proud, the remnant,

00:10:53.400 and the churches that you do have left, um, will be a pure, it's a very puritanical,

00:10:59.100 um, it's Anabaptist kind of mentality that, uh, that says we'd rather have, um, 10% of the

00:11:07.120 churches, but they're, you know, perfect or close to it, perfect churches. Uh, so that way, you know,

00:11:14.020 uh, maybe we have less Christians, but everyone who is a Christian, you know, it's, it's less

00:11:17.620 quantity, but more quality. Um, and, and you can know that, you know, that, you know, that would

00:11:22.220 be their argument. Now I have counters to that, but what would you say? Yeah, I'd say two things.

00:11:26.000 The first is that any, I acknowledge that. So it would be the case that there would be

00:11:32.780 more hypocrisy. There would be more nominal Christianity. But just pointing out that

00:11:39.960 something has a cost to it or a negative side does not mean that it's actually overall bad.

00:11:46.240 Right. So you can dwell on the negative side of any policy. Let's say it's a law that there's

00:11:52.780 usually some kind of downside to a policy. You know, like we have a court system where

00:11:59.240 90, let's say, let's just say that 99% of convictions, the guy actually did what he did.

00:12:05.540 Well, the fact that we have jails and we have, we throw people in jail means that there's going to

00:12:10.900 be some people who are going to go to jail who actually didn't commit the crime. And, you know,

00:12:14.280 we create a process, you know, all that, we don't get into that, but there's always going to be,

00:12:18.480 so if you just dwell on that 1% and look at the injustice of that 1%, and then you're losing all

00:12:24.080 the, and you get rid of this system entirely, well, guess what the mayhem that's going to be

00:12:29.180 caused? There's always going to be that downside, so you have to take the entire, you have to,

00:12:34.100 in a way, judge the negative by the positive, and then see if it's good. So I would argue

00:12:41.000 that, yes, that is the case, that there will be nominal Christian hypocrisy.

00:12:46.220 But overall, the conditions will be, one, more conducive to faith, and overall, the society

00:12:51.920 will be a better society for people. It's more loving to your neighbor to have a society in

00:12:57.800 which they are ordered to being virtuous, and that society broadly is virtuous, and also that

00:13:06.140 they're prepared for faith. So I think that makes a lot more sense.

00:13:09.760 That's well said.

00:13:10.220 So, and also, but secondly, I don't think that it's right that you're going to have a, that there's going to be that absent cultural Christianity, there's going to be this stark divide between the Orthodox and the, I don't know, the infidels or whatever, the non-Christian.

00:13:32.620 Right.

00:13:32.800 I don't think that's going to happen. Because what we're seeing today is actually as cultural

00:13:36.740 Christianity kind of wanes in the country, you're getting, it's kind of, they're kind of blurring

00:13:42.820 the lines now. So it's not, there isn't this create, there are differences, clear differences

00:13:48.140 between what we would consider a strict orthodox in theology and morality and the world broadly

00:13:53.040 speaking. But what you're seeing though are a lot of churches kind of moving to the left in order

00:13:59.040 to appeal to these people.

00:14:00.520 Right, so then the lines still become,

00:14:02.360 it's still just as blurred.

00:14:03.520 It's just as blurred.

00:14:04.400 There's not a stark contrast.

00:14:06.460 We're actually seeing the opposite.

00:14:08.000 And also that,

00:14:09.260 I think this became apparent

00:14:10.860 to the American regime broadly in 2016.

00:14:14.860 The campaign of 2015, 2016 from the left

00:14:17.960 was very negative towards Christianity

00:14:21.400 and conservative Christians.

00:14:24.600 And just broadly across the board.

00:14:27.660 And I think they realized at that point that actually the evangelical voting block, you can't just criticize them, attack them, and denounce them and expect, because they're so powerful, you can't do that anymore.

00:14:39.740 And so the campaigns subsequent to that on the left was actually trying to bring in evangelicals for Biden and trying to make it so actually how can we appeal to these people to break up that voting block.

00:14:54.900 And so then you see in the New York Times, the Washington Post, you see these priestesses or these, you know, theologically they're orthodox, right?

00:15:02.960 You know, penal substitution and Trinitarian doctrine.

00:15:05.920 Yeah, like David French.

00:15:06.640 They affirm all the doctrines, but they operate from the regime to try to get conservatives to vote for the Democrats or the, yeah, after party or the neocons or whatever.

00:15:18.820 So I just don't think that that's actually the case, that there's going to be this stark line.

00:15:25.640 And I mean, this was what Russell Moore, maybe about 10 years ago, was arguing.

00:15:29.700 He said, it's actually better that everyone around us is just atheist and hostile so that we know who's Christian, who's not.

00:15:37.580 But as hostility has increased, we've actually seen the lines blurred even more.

00:15:42.920 So there is that stark contrast.

00:15:44.300 It's just not going to happen.

00:15:45.240 the regime is all like if there is a power if because because christians are a powerful voting

00:15:51.880 block um the regime has to instead of just denouncing they have to try to break that apart

00:15:59.380 and make them some of those people go to their side right and that's going to be like i said

00:16:03.880 that's going to be having this sort of rhetoric where you maintain the orthodoxy in terms of

00:16:08.720 strict like theological doctrine while politically moving people to the left right um the only other

00:16:15.540 thing i was going to say so i agree with you i i think um i just think it's a false notion uh that

00:16:21.000 um a christian culture necessitates or or is going to guarantee um nominal christian doctrine

00:16:30.380 that leads towards um nominal christian preaching which leads towards um false conversions false

00:16:37.460 assurance and you know a bunch of people end up going to hell so i i reject that and the simplest

00:16:43.760 most concise way that i could say it is this um nominal christianity uh is not um is not the fault

00:16:52.000 or um it doesn't track back to the faithfulness of the state it tracks back to the failure of

00:16:59.100 the church a faithful state so like a faithful christian prince does not necessitate a faithless

00:17:06.360 christian churchmen like if if you have a constantine constantine by virtue of being

00:17:14.580 constantine doesn't doesn't necessitate that all the ministers have to suck you know if the

00:17:20.980 ministers suck that's on them you know but but that's like to me that's the biggest disconnect

00:17:25.340 is as i thought about the argument of like well cultural christianity will you know because it

00:17:31.820 was basically a statement being made without ever having really been proved you know so like it just

00:17:37.180 was assumed that cultural christianity um means nominal christianity um but but when we talk about

00:17:45.580 cultural christianity we're talking about we're talking about uh the increase of christian customs

00:17:52.300 and virtues and values both in culture and also um politically um in in terms of government and

00:18:00.220 and laws and these kinds of things. And so you're, so really what you're talking about is you're

00:18:04.260 talking about, um, cause that's going to be influenced by someone. So you're talking about,

00:18:08.380 um, influencers and leaders and, um, both politically, like, you know, uh, civil magistrates,

00:18:14.860 but also in culture, you know, in terms of, uh, leaders of institutions and corporations and,

00:18:20.160 and, you know, universities and all these different things. You're just talking about

00:18:23.980 having more Christian leaders outside of the sphere of the church beyond just pastors.

00:18:28.160 you know there's christian politicians christian actors christian you know um university chancellors

00:18:35.620 and all this kind of stuff and if you have that um and that has a positive effect and you know

00:18:41.580 in the realm of culture and politics to there was more of a of a christian culture there none of

00:18:47.220 that necessitates a decline in the sphere of the church the church doesn't have to become less

00:18:53.540 christian because the nation has become more christian you'd have to prove that you know

00:18:58.060 and bear that out why that why that's a guarantee you know and and i don't think anybody really has

00:19:03.980 yeah i mean especially in i think in in protestantism uh we can like you know you're

00:19:10.500 baptist i'm presbyterian we can have it and this is i think the the american uh particularly like

00:19:17.140 the 19th century uh religiosity where you have many different you have methodists you have baptists

00:19:22.040 presbyterian congregationalists um and you could have a robust like like in cultural christianity

00:19:28.440 in a in a in a protestant you know a pan-protestant nation you can have

00:19:34.020 uh a lot of because of the differences you you can generate a lot of interest in theological

00:19:40.800 discussion in the in the things of god right that then you people end up going on the side they're

00:19:46.880 on um but as protestants we can affirm each other's mutual faith so if you have a cultural

00:19:51.540 christianity that is protestant um the society itself will become very very theological and

00:19:57.920 discussion will go around i i do i will say though i i understand i understand like the the where

00:20:05.860 people like you know i hate to say it but people like russell moore coming from because they grew

00:20:09.880 up in the south they were in southern baptist churches in the south there are as someone who

00:20:15.820 is kind of an outsider who's moved in there are ways in which religion is abused in in south i

00:20:23.340 mean this is true everywhere but just as something that's very clear because christianity is so kind

00:20:28.580 of fundamental to the southern culture you you listen to some country songs and they're just

00:20:33.160 utterly blasphemous like using holy language to talk about the romance you have with your

00:20:38.320 girlfriend right like stuff like that i understand like you listen to that and like my wife and i

00:20:43.680 listen, like, I can't believe, like, this should not be the case. So, I understand where those

00:20:50.500 people, now that I'm kind of in that world, as someone who's grown up and grew up in California,

00:20:55.040 not in a Christian family, now seeing it, you can kind of understand where they're coming from.

00:21:00.500 I begin, I would just say the alternative is much worse. Yes. But we, what we should, instead of

00:21:05.340 attacking cultural Christianity, we should be saying, look, Christianity is part of our culture,

00:21:10.180 But this other, like, the actual, like, using theology to talk about your girlfriend is wrong.

00:21:21.400 That should be kicked out.

00:21:23.040 And so there should be within the churches of the South, like you said, the call to faithful ministers to say this stuff is wrong.

00:21:31.140 This is not who we are.

00:21:32.520 And use language of we.

00:21:34.680 Like, use language of this is our culture.

00:21:36.960 It is Christian, but we have to be faithful.

00:21:38.840 So call people to faithfulness, call them to attend churches, call the churchmen to denounce

00:21:45.700 these things that are in the culture without going in the realm of, oh, this is all cultural

00:21:50.000 Christianity. We need to get rid of it. It's better if all our enablers are atheists, so we know where

00:21:54.220 they're at. So you acknowledge the negatives without throwing everything out, right?

00:22:02.980 Well, it's the same as you think of welfare and things like that. And the argument is like,

00:22:06.880 well, if we have these policies, then it's going to take the pressure, you know, off of heads of

00:22:12.980 households within, you know, the sphere of the family to provide, to protect, you know, because

00:22:17.320 Uncle Sam becomes Daddy Sam, you know, and so then men will abdicate leadership and provision and

00:22:23.700 those. And I get that. And I actually, for the most part, agree with that. I don't think we

00:22:27.820 should have welfare, regardless of whether or not it gives incentive for people to abdicate. I just,

00:22:32.640 i don't think we should do it period that's that's my view um however that said it's uh it it

00:22:40.620 it doesn't necessitate that like you could technically theoretically you could have welfare

00:22:46.020 and men could still just say yeah but that's my job and i'm not going to rely on the state because

00:22:49.640 that's gay like that's effeminate that's not masculine right like it's embarrassing it's

00:22:55.240 humiliating i actually you know like uh did we not teach the boy shame like i you know growing

00:23:00.640 up was taught shame. It would be an embarrassment for me, even if it was there. And I knew, okay,

00:23:05.480 my children won't starve and we'll be fine. Sure, we'll be fine, but I'll be embarrassed.

00:23:10.240 Yeah. You know, so that like, you know, that would be enough. And I think, you know, to use

00:23:14.560 that and equate that as, you know, an illustration, shifting it over to, you know, instead of

00:23:19.960 the state providing welfare, and then that being, you know, an excuse for in the household for

00:23:25.440 fathers to abdicate their responsibilities with provision. It's the same thing with the state

00:23:29.960 providing a Christian direction that orients the populace towards heavenly good, creating

00:23:38.200 the excuse for ministers in the house of God to abdicate their responsibilities. It doesn't

00:23:45.140 necessitate that. Ministers could just say, yeah, you know what? So the state for the first time in

00:23:49.440 a while is doing a pretty good job, even in a spiritual aspect. And that's wonderful. And those

00:23:55.600 ministers could look at that and they could say, and so I'm actually going to ratchet my work week

00:24:02.020 down to 30 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week. And I'm going to study a little less for

00:24:06.720 my sermons and do a little bit less counseling. You could do that, or you could, aren't you going

00:24:12.280 to be a man? You could just be a man, you know, and whether it's provision as a man, as a father

00:24:17.700 in the household, or whether it's spiritual provision as a man of God, a minister in the

00:24:22.900 church, but the state doing something well doesn't mean the household has to do it poorly. The state

00:24:27.980 doing something well doesn't mean that the church has to do it poorly. You can't prove causation,

00:24:34.960 I guess is what I'm saying. And then the last thing I was going to say real quick, because you

00:24:39.060 said, well, the alternative is worse. When you were saying that, yeah, it could produce nominalism

00:24:46.600 and these kinds of things and excuse, but, you know, and not just nominalism, you were talking

00:24:51.940 about like the country western singer you know and um he's singing you know biblical language

00:24:56.060 but he's applying it to you know his love for his dog and fishing and his gal and and it really is

00:25:01.360 you know blasphemous um and you know yeah but but the alternative is just absolute degenerate

00:25:07.920 rap music that's um it's like i'm i'm singing the way that i should talk about christ i'm applying

00:25:14.380 to my girlfriend in a country western song the alternative is i'm rapping about how i've killed

00:25:20.120 14 people and uh got away with it like like you know what i mean like so the alternative is worse

00:25:27.300 what i was gonna say yeah there's something to work with exactly yeah it's not that it doesn't

00:25:32.320 need correction it's an abuse of your christian culture to to do that but at least there is the

00:25:37.080 christian culture you can work with there's enough commonality to where i can correct it exactly so

00:25:41.420 what i was going to say with that is um it made me think of gk chesterton i think it was him who

00:25:46.100 said that hypocrisy, because this is the thing that I think, so the Reformed Baptists, their

00:25:51.480 biggest things are like, well, it's going to lend towards false assurance. It'll produce nominal

00:25:56.740 Christianity, Christian culture. If the state is Christian, Christianized, it's going to produce

00:26:02.520 a nominal Christianity, and that's going to lend towards ultimately false assurance. And really,

00:26:10.960 if we were to boil that down even further beyond the severity of false assurance means,

00:26:15.820 people going to hell. But if we were to boil it down to a word, it would be hypocrisy. And what

00:26:22.020 I've noticed is that like for a lot of Christians and ironically, just people innately across the

00:26:26.660 board, a bunch of leftists too, you know, like that's the biggest, even though they're, they

00:26:30.260 totally embody hypocrisy themselves, that's, that's their favorite, you know, objection to the

00:26:35.140 right all the time. It's like, well, that's hypocritical, you know, and you're not really

00:26:38.940 pro-life, you know, because you don't, I don't know, give free money to people, you know, from

00:26:43.940 the day that they're born to the day they die you know whatever but like but it's always that's

00:26:47.840 that's the charge that people like to levy is hypocrisy we hate hypocrisy but i think it was

00:26:52.900 chesterton and it made me think differently about hypocrisy he basically said something i'm

00:26:57.640 paraphrasing uh but he said hypocrisy is uh a vice and it's tip of the hat to virtue

00:27:05.880 that that a society so christian culture basically what we're saying is well but some of the results

00:27:12.360 is the country western singer is going to um is going to use you know uh christian language but

00:27:18.160 apply it to his girlfriend it's going to you know it's going to produce uh false assurances it's

00:27:22.100 going to produce nominal it in a word i think what we could say is um christian culture will produce

00:27:27.440 a greater degree of hypocrisy and then you said yeah but the alternative is worse and and to put

00:27:32.980 a little bit more meat on the bones there the alternative is no hypocrisy and here's here's

00:27:38.300 funny thing the the irony is no a world without hypocrisy is actually worse than a world with

00:27:44.460 hypocrisy that's great because because the world without hypocrisy is a world where there's no need

00:27:50.000 for vice to tip the hat to virtue because virtue has been so eradicated and destroyed that there's

00:27:55.840 no longer virtue at all it is actually a benefit i remember watching the coronation you know with

00:28:00.660 king charles and all the baptists like clockwork you know the g3 types came out and you know they

00:28:05.260 couldn't help themselves. And like, this is blasphemy. And he, you know, he's not a defender

00:28:09.440 of the faith. He's not even saved. And he doesn't give a crap about Jesus. And what a mockery. And

00:28:14.780 the whole time, I'm like, yeah, I mean, objectively, that's true. I agree with you.

00:28:18.600 I don't think King Charles, you know, I'm not omniscient. God alone sees a heart. But

00:28:21.760 for all, you know, intents and purposes and signs that we can, you know, that we can discern.

00:28:26.140 Yeah, I don't think the dude's a Christian. I don't think he's regenerate. But here's the deal.

00:28:29.860 um all the pomp and circumstance and all the rituals and all all the customs and all these

00:28:35.780 different things i'm grateful for them even when they're hypocritical i'm grateful for them

00:28:41.040 because the hypocrisy what that alludes to is that at least is england in the true sense christian

00:28:47.480 no but there's at least enough of a prior christendom enough of a hangover left to where

00:28:53.180 uh all the degenerates at least one day a year you know or whatever have to pretend and tip

00:29:00.740 their hat all the vice has to at least occasionally tip the hat to virtue do we really want a culture

00:29:08.280 and a world and nations where vice doesn't even have to pretend like like yeah we don't want vice

00:29:14.540 but if we do have vice i'd like it to pretend now and again but but a world where it doesn't

00:29:19.280 even have to pretend right um well yeah you want that's not you want the vice to be to be inward

00:29:24.720 there's an old like oscar wilde quip where he says something like only this superficial fail

00:29:29.280 to judge by appearances or something like that basically saying that you know he's he's saying

00:29:34.740 that that like outward appearances and your conformity to good moral norms is actually even

00:29:41.380 if inside you you know you don't actually believe it actually supports like outwardly you know

00:29:47.740 supports the good it's a good thing we have this in scripture the apostle paul says well

00:29:52.440 whether it's for good motives true motives or false it's still a net positive that the gospel

00:29:58.860 is being preached you know it's just like manners so if you you might really want to punch a guy in

00:30:04.460 the nose but you restrain yourself like deep inside that's what you want to do you'd be very

00:30:09.560 satisfied but there's outward decorum that prevents you from doing that and we would even

00:30:15.200 though that would be a type of hypocrisy. I mean, really, that's what civil law does. Like when they

00:30:19.320 say, you know, murdering, you'll get punished for murder. And that restraints. You might really want

00:30:25.100 to, yeah, that restraints. You might really in your heart want to murder some guy, but the fear

00:30:29.640 of punishment prevents you from doing that. And that is a form of hypocrisy, but it's good because

00:30:34.100 outwardly it creates the conditions in which that's suppressed. And I think we have, we tend to have

00:30:39.080 this, I don't know if this is a modern thing, but we tend to have this like stark divide between

00:30:44.080 outward and inward. I mean, there is a classic distinction in Protestant thought, so I don't

00:30:47.640 deny that. But it also is a case that the outwardness of something can affect the inward.

00:30:54.560 We're quick to say that the motives, that the heart will shape behaviors. Hands and feet will

00:30:59.760 be shaped by the heart. But there is a truth in saying that the hands and feet over time

00:31:04.120 will also shape the heart. That if I practice certain disciplines, even if my heart's not in

00:31:10.140 it, and I do them consistently enough and long enough, desire can, it's not just that desire

00:31:16.640 fuels actions. Consistent actions over time can shape desire. Right. And this is one of the great

00:31:24.220 points of Edmund Burke in Reflections of the Revolution of France. He says, if you upend

00:31:29.080 the social order, this outward thing that's developed over time, you're allowing the internal

00:31:36.360 vices to just unleash. And he predicted the reign of terror and the rise of Napoleon and all that

00:31:42.200 stuff in France. But it's absolutely the case. Like, yeah, the outward decorum comes to normalize

00:31:49.600 in our hearts what is right and what's wrong. And that's why it's very important. I mean,

00:31:55.020 so if outward decorum is degenerate, then it's going to shape the heart for degeneracy. But if

00:31:59.280 outward decorum is actually good, yes, it creates hypocrisy, but also trains the heart in what's

00:32:05.840 good as well. It's like the, it's what Ed Burke said. I don't know the exact quote, but he says

00:32:09.780 something like prejudice. Like you can have outward like laws that say, do this, don't do

00:32:16.140 that. But it's the prejudice, meaning that it's the felt rightness of some action. That's what

00:32:22.860 lead you to own that as something that feels right. Like there's a, yeah, your heart is shaped

00:32:30.360 as in what looks right, what you ought to do in this situation, even when you have desires to do

00:32:37.140 the opposite. There is a type of social—it's what Emil Durkheim, an old sociologist, called

00:32:44.740 it. There's social facts. There's these things that govern a society broadly that are not laws

00:32:53.140 in the explicit sense, but somehow we all own them as proper. The idea of proper greetings

00:32:59.860 of opening the door for people.

00:33:02.880 And Canadians do this a lot too.

00:33:05.400 But if you bump into someone,

00:33:06.580 you say, I'm sorry, or apologize,

00:33:08.480 even if it's their fault.

00:33:09.840 Like it's a weird thing how we,

00:33:12.400 if you're just standing there and a guy bumps you,

00:33:15.140 you might say, oh, I'm sorry.

00:33:16.480 It's not your fault.

00:33:17.160 But why do you do that?

00:33:17.920 Because it's a social custom

00:33:19.200 that allows people to get on their day.

00:33:22.360 It's acknowledging that there was this thing that happened

00:33:24.520 and then it resolves the issue and you move on.

00:33:26.540 Right. So that there's, um, there's these things that we do that make our society function well

00:33:32.720 for the good. And so we can live at peace and we can, are able to love one another as a community.

00:33:37.700 Right. And cultural Christianity is just, just that. I mean, right now we're, you know, this is,

00:33:42.220 I guess this airs after Christmas, but you walk around and you see these, these, you see trees

00:33:48.020 and you see lights and you saw this stuff. That's, even though there's nothing like, obviously,

00:33:52.940 in my house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We just got ours last week. Um, it, I was talking about all of

00:33:58.360 it. It's like, imagine if someone showed up and they say, you cut off a tree and you put it in

00:34:01.880 your house and you put lights around it. It's like, what in the world are you doing? What is

00:34:06.020 this? If they had no concept of the tradition, then they're like, how is this Christian and all

00:34:10.340 that? But, um, cause Martin Luther did it. That's why. Yeah. But you know, it's, it's, uh, it feels

00:34:15.480 so normal to us, even though when you step outside of your world and you look into it from like the,

00:34:21.360 that were that perspective you're like this is bizarre but it feels so normal to us and it's

00:34:27.400 joyful and it's festive and you have your own family traditions around it and then there's

00:34:31.840 the national traditions and there used to be more of that the christmas parades and

00:34:35.480 and the uh the skyscrapers with crosses on them during christmas right yeah um i mean we had all

00:34:42.140 those things and and it supported not only in new york i think that was a good friday it was good

00:34:48.920 it was like 1950 something in new york and and you see these three of the tallest buildings in

00:34:55.580 new york city with three crosses you know to represent calvary yeah it wasn't that long ago

00:35:00.900 and just even even your your you know like kind of stiff presbyterian church um on on easter sunday

00:35:09.040 even if they're not going to because you know because the regulative principle they're not

00:35:14.280 going to they are still going to preach a gospel sermon that that um is not just your it's it's

00:35:21.140 the here's here's justification they're still going to do that and why is that because there

00:35:26.340 are family members who said yeah i'll go to church you know and then or there's random outsiders who

00:35:32.420 yeah i guess we should go to church today why not that's right and they show up everyone does that

00:35:36.320 and that's because of cultural christianity now they should attend church every sunday but the

00:35:40.460 fact of the matter is the the culture has um nudged them into into doing that right and it's a

00:35:47.400 good and all the i completely agree and all this um is rooted i mean you you see it from reason

00:35:53.100 you see it from logic um you see it from experience we you can just point to so many

00:35:58.780 different testimonies of cultural christianity leading someone to a church or they heard the

00:36:03.400 gospel and then eventually it wasn't just cultural it became genuine and they were born again but

00:36:08.640 also um the principle is also most importantly it's thoroughly biblical like it's it's what the

00:36:14.340 apostle paul talks about when he says that the law is a tutor um that the law actually brings

00:36:20.760 us to christ this is the reformed view of the three uses of the law of god and its first use

00:36:26.380 i always i use the illustration of a mirror a mirror a shield and a compass you know so it's

00:36:32.380 like the law reveals to us the holiness of god and by way of consequence it you know shows us

00:36:37.960 our own lack of holiness, our sinfulness, and the immense chasm. And it doesn't save us, but it

00:36:43.260 shows us, it drives us to Christ, shows us our need for Christ. Spurgeon, you know, he said,

00:36:47.540 a man cannot appreciate the beauty of Christ unless he first come to see the necessity for

00:36:53.000 Christ. And so the law of God in its first use reveals that God is holy by proxy, that we are

00:36:57.780 sinners and that we need a savior and that we can't save ourself. And the second use, it doesn't

00:37:03.760 again, change the heart. It doesn't save. But the law of God, even for the unregenerate and

00:37:09.260 even for the reprobate, those who never end up being saved, the law of God does at the outward

00:37:14.920 level in terms of their behaviors, it restrains outward manifestations of evil. And that's good

00:37:21.020 for them, actually. It's actually even good for them because Jesus even talks about in hell,

00:37:25.940 we could argue that there's a hierarchy of sorts, a light beating versus a severe beating.

00:37:30.180 if God let the wicked do, they have the heart of wickedness, but if you let them act upon it

00:37:38.140 in every single way, not just total depravity, but utter depravity, then I believe that eternally

00:37:44.240 their punishment would, as bad as it'll be, it would be even more severe. So there's a sense of

00:37:48.560 which it's merciful even to them, but then it's certainly merciful to everybody else, restraining

00:37:53.740 their outward deeds of wickedness so that for the sake of the wheat, that the tares aren't able to

00:37:59.540 utterly destroy, you know, um, the wheat for the righteous. Um, and then, you know, so a shield,

00:38:04.900 it restrains, um, outwardly, uh, manifestations of sin. And then last, um, for the righteous,

00:38:10.280 you know, the, and David says, you know, thy law is a light unto my path. You know, it's a lamp

00:38:15.600 unto my feet, a light unto my path. Uh, so the law of God, um, it doesn't show us the way to

00:38:20.140 salvation necessarily, but it does show us the way from salvation upon being saved. The law of God

00:38:25.600 shows me, you know, because the immediate reaction for the person with a regenerate heart who's been

00:38:30.320 born again by grace alone is, man, like, you know, 1 John 4, 19, we love because he first loved us.

00:38:36.900 God, you love me like that freely while I was yet a sinner. Christ died for me. You love me like

00:38:42.660 that. Well, man, I love you back. We love because you first loved us. And because I love you back,

00:38:47.620 I want to demonstrate my love. I want to show you my love. How can I do that? If you love me,

00:38:52.480 obey my commands. And then the law of God, it's not a path to salvation, a way of earning God's

00:38:59.200 love, but it is a path from salvation showing us how to reciprocate the love of God that we

00:39:05.720 freely received out of not trying to earn salvation, but as a response of gratitude

00:39:12.160 for the free salvation we already have in Christ. And so the law is a guide, it's a compass. It

00:39:17.480 shows us how to live, not how to live to be saved, but how to live in light of having been

00:39:21.860 freely saved by grace. And so all that being said, that second use of restraining a shield

00:39:29.240 and that first use of revealing sin and all these different things, the law doesn't save,

00:39:35.160 but it is a tutor. The law doesn't save, but it shapes and it guides and it restrains and it

00:39:43.720 reveals um and and and so my point is that in a just society with just laws um it's it's it's a

00:39:53.640 more conducive backdrop for the brilliance of the gospel to shine more clearly yeah like it's a

00:40:02.420 layup and the way i view it is it's like you know it's it's literally or an alley-oop maybe is a more

00:40:08.060 accurate uh phrase it is uh is this the christian prince giving the perfect alley-oop for the

00:40:15.200 minister to dunk yeah you know what i mean yeah yeah i mean that's that's great um why so why

00:40:21.600 would ministers be against that yeah it's it's conditions conducive to conversion it's just

00:40:27.020 time and clients fame he adds coercive in there but in this case uh yeah so i mean you're talking

00:40:32.160 about laws, but the customs and cultural Christianity are just social norms. I guess

00:40:40.340 you could say they're a type of law. They're maybe the same genus of law. They're not explicit,

00:40:47.300 but they are something that the heart owns. So an example that's not cultural Christianity would be

00:40:54.780 throwing trash out of your car. So if you have a McDonald's wrapper in your lap

00:41:01.520 and you throw that at your car.

00:41:04.100 To me, the act of doing that

00:41:06.740 would feel utterly horrifying for me.

00:41:09.180 Like I would have to be at gunpoint to do that.

00:41:12.000 Is there something about it just,

00:41:13.940 I guess, you know, from a young age,

00:41:15.600 like you, I cannot, like,

00:41:17.700 I don't care if I look around, there's no cops,

00:41:19.780 no one's gonna see me do it.

00:41:21.640 I don't care if it's like in the middle of the desert

00:41:23.380 and no one's ever gonna see the rapper.

00:41:24.960 It's gonna burn or whatever.

00:41:26.100 It's just gonna fly away.

00:41:27.300 It would feel horrifying to me

00:41:29.020 because my heart has owned the fact

00:41:30.760 that that is wrong um so so that this is where like so law can can support that it can supplement

00:41:39.060 that um but ultimately for a society to be virtuous the heart has to own these things

00:41:45.680 and uh and so from me from a young age this is why like you know this is this is what discipleship

00:41:51.880 does this is why i think in part what a church is doing when they disciple is not just discipling

00:41:57.580 for eternal life they're also discipling such that in their their social world in their their

00:42:03.140 life in society and society broadly will induce to these norms that the heart will own the fact

00:42:09.440 that actually it's right to go to church that actually it's right to do the to do family

00:42:15.340 worship it's right to do these things um in your home and with your friends so um that's

00:42:20.540 the other thing i the other thing i wanted to sing like the the criticism is is also syncretism

00:42:26.060 which i that word is usually abused um but there is some of that that should i think we should

00:42:32.660 acknowledge and recognize and condemn and that is like you have like these july 4th um uh like

00:42:40.680 church celebrations where there's flags all over the place and there's there's light shows and

00:42:45.560 there's like blending the lines between you know being patriotic versus christian yeah so i think

00:42:51.340 i i disagree with like some people say well you go to church and it's like this heavenly thing

00:42:55.140 with all the saints from all,

00:42:56.240 but you pray for your president

00:42:59.220 and you pray for your leaders.

00:43:00.680 So there is a way in which you in church

00:43:02.820 are still in the context of your nation.

00:43:06.600 So you still should give thanks for your nation,

00:43:10.540 give thanks and pray for your particular leaders.

00:43:14.080 So, but there is something where when you start,

00:43:17.180 I disagree with having a flag,

00:43:19.360 American flag visible in the sanctuary.

00:43:22.360 You can have it in the back.

00:43:23.340 You can have it out in front of the church.

00:43:24.640 I've always kind of held that view.

00:43:26.280 Yeah, I think it should be pulpit, table, font,

00:43:28.460 and that's basically it.

00:43:29.540 Maybe some plants.

00:43:30.640 For the record, though,

00:43:31.320 I'm also against having every other nation's flag

00:43:34.380 in your sanctuary because of the missionaries

00:43:37.000 that you support.

00:43:37.820 Yeah, you don't do that either.

00:43:40.560 No, that's not, yeah.

00:43:41.520 So there shouldn't be,

00:43:43.900 you shouldn't have like this conflation

00:43:47.560 of as if America is the sole chosen nation.

00:43:52.480 And some of that stuff is like not actually what people are up to.

00:43:56.480 So I don't want to sound like Russell Moore.

00:43:58.540 But there is that.

00:44:00.200 So with anything, like I said, there's always a way something good can be abused.

00:44:05.400 And so there shouldn't be this, when you're worshiping God, you give thanks for the blessings

00:44:11.760 of nationhood without, in a way, worshiping the nation in a worship service.

00:44:17.680 Now, how to do that well, I don't think is that hard to figure out.

00:44:22.480 But it is something that within cultural Christianity,

00:44:24.760 we have to kind of watch out for.

00:44:26.040 That's true.

00:44:26.900 Yep.

00:44:27.500 Well said.

00:44:28.360 So cultural Christianity, in a nutshell, good.

00:44:32.360 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:33.380 We're for it.

00:44:33.860 It's good, yeah.

00:44:34.340 We support it.

00:44:35.120 All right.

00:44:35.380 Well, thank you guys for tuning in.

00:44:37.260 And our next episode, can you tease it?

00:44:39.700 What's going to be the thing?

00:44:40.560 I think next is going to be about law.

00:44:41.980 So we touched upon it a little bit.

00:44:43.080 But yeah, let's talk about law and what that does.

00:44:45.680 All right.

00:44:46.120 Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - August 09, 2025

THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Nominal Christianity And “The Blessing Of Hypocrisy”

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