THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - What Is A Nation？ with Dr. Stephen Wolfe - S05E03
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 9 minutes
Harmful content
Misogyny
4
sentences flagged
Toxicity
28
sentences flagged
Hate speech
110
sentences flagged
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Stephen Wolfe and I discuss the concept of Christian nationalism and what it means to be a Christian nation. We talk about how to define Christian nationalism, how to understand it, and why it's important to understand what a nation is.
Transcript
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All right, here we are. This is episode three of the series that we're doing, myself and Dr.
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Stephen Wolfe. Today, we are going to be talking about what is a nation. So if you haven't already
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seen the first two episodes, you can go back. We talk about Aristotle in the first episode,
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among other things. And then the second episode, right before this one, is where we define
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Christian nationalism. But to properly understand that, we get into our topic today, what is a
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nation? Because a bunch of moderns, classical liberals, and especially here in America,
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have a very difficult time understanding what a nation is. Is it just a set of propositions?
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anybody at any time can come in and salute and all of a sudden be a part of that nation or is
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the nation something more so here we are all right yeah yeah so the way the way i build
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the idea of christian nationalism is i i start with nation and i discuss that and then i go into
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nationalism what would be nationalism and then actually i go from nation then to what a christian
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nation is and then what would be nationalism and what's christian nationalism but i think they
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build upon each other. So you want to, a lot of people, they want to jump straight to these laws
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that we'd pass for the nation, but they want to talk about Christian nations, but what actually
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is a nation itself. And so I sought to define that. And the approach I went with was not
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this like bird's eye view, where let's look at cultural geography, let's look at these old maps
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where it shows that these people groups are here and that sort of thing, or deal with the
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conceptually, the way I went about it is trying to ask the reader to reflect upon their experiences,
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like, you know, to think about how you relate to people, familiarity and foreignness, and work
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from there. So when I go about defining a nation, it's firstly an experience of place,
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of experience of people and a place that it's like, I try to describe that there's, that in
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our world we have, we bring to kind of bare material this, these relationships of things
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and places that we, like even like a house can become a home by your experience with it.
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So you can be in a place where there's very similar houses, but you're only going to relate
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to that one place as, as home. And that's because you and your loved ones were in that house, did
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things together and have made it a home by your activity and your love for one another. And when
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you extend that out into a community, you can think of a home ballpark, like a little league
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field that you hit your first home run or whatever pitched your, your, uh, won the game by being a
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pitcher. Um, you can think of your local school that you spent a lot of time with, with friends
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And your love for these places extends because into them,
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it's almost as if they become part of who you are.
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to the place, but it's connected also with the people themselves. Um, I, it, when, when I was,
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uh, probably about, I don't know, 10 years old, I hit my first home run. Um, and actually my only
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home run, I have to admit, uh, in little league and, uh, I'll never forget. I know exactly where
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it was. And my, my father liked went running out and he, uh, he found a kid because the kids would
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run out. We're watching. They grabbed the ball and I go, Oh, I got a ball. And my dad, uh, he
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saw the kid and he's like, here, I got a $20 bill. And so he gave, gave the kid. I still have that
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ball. So, um, so like that, that place is a place of memory. Um, sorry, that place is a place of
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memory for me. It's in Napa, California. Anyway, whenever I go there, I would experience that place
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as a place of love for that sort of act that my dad did for me.
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real quick yeah when did your dad pass away uh it was about uh it was about two years ago
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yeah a little over two years ago he loved trump right oh yeah yeah yeah you were telling me he
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had like a maga hat in every room of the house yeah yeah i mean um in 2016 when he won uh the
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first person i called uh was my father and he he's like he like broke down crying like it was crazy
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in it with happiness but uh so yeah he'd love to see trump win again um was your dad
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was he was he blue collar was he an academic like you like yeah would he what kind of conversations
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would you guys have about your book would he be tracking with you would he agree with your
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political philosophy your theology yeah yeah broadly yeah he would agree i mean i i attribute
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to him really my instincts for basically paleoconservatism. So he was, he was a kind
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of a news junkie. And whenever we go on these trips, even like to baseball practice or to
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Yosemite on these hour long trips, he would play talk radio. And so we'd listen to talk radio,
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Rush Limbaugh, things like that. It'd be like Rush Limbaugh. It was also a guy named Michael
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Savage was one we heard a lot just because of the time he was a local guy back then. And then
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he became national um so we'd listen to those guys and then during the commercial he'd always
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turn it down so i i never listened to music as a kid right never except my mom's like light like
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light 80s rock which i didn't you know pick up from her but uh right but yeah we listened to
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that and and he was a pappy cannon fan cool pappy cannon voter he bought me the first book i have
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from pappy cannon and another one so he's really the reason why and so i mean to tie to that i
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It's still the Wolf Ranch in Napa County, California.
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um but yeah but the i i guess the the point though is that home is what we were saying
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yeah yeah like he yeah and and so that will i mean the wolf ranch to this day is a place where
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i'd go and play and there's a pool and and like there's this intimate connection with even the
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driveway there was like a 200 yard driveway going up a hill and i even my relationship to that
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driveway is one of like a positive affection because i would drive up and i'd be all excited
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and they'd have, like, you know, peacocks run around.
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So, like, through experience and through loved ones,
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you develop these affections, and it extends out.
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So, people in the United States have a connection to World War II,
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not because anyone here, very few people actually were part of that war,
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We have connections in Vietnam. My wife's grandfather was in the Navy in the Korean War and the Incheon Landing. He was one of those boat landing craft drivers and was part of that invasion. So you have a connection of these great historical events through your loved ones. And that connects you to that place.
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um it connects you not only you to that place but connects you to all the people who were um
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a part of that same event so that you and i i mean i don't know you know your grandparents
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whatever but if they're in the wars but like there's ways we can talk about it like my other
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grandfather was a bandsman in honolulu he played the trumpet for and and uh for all the guys on r&r
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so he was the guy playing the trumpet for all the band uh all the dance bands and he was training to
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jump into Tokyo before the bombs hit. But we all have these stories and they connect us to the
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national, the great events of our past. And they unite us in love. And someone who's new to a place
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who doesn't have those historical connections, you can have the best intentions. You can want
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to be a part of that place as much as all your heart's desires. I want to be an American, but
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you're from China or wherever you are, you still don't have that historical connection to the
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nation. It is very propositional. It's very conscious. It's very deliberate. Whereas people
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who have been raised up with those historical connections, that intergenerational connection
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to a nation, it's unconscious. You have this almost, yeah, like a subconscious love and delight
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in your people and place. And this would be true if I went to Hungary or if I went to China. I mean,
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I went to, a few months ago, I was in Italy and I went to Hungary and I spoke in Hungary
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and Italy felt very foreign to me. Like, you know, with the language, the customs, the way of life.
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And if I moved to Italy, I would feel out of place. I'd feel foreign. They were all, you know,
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most people were very friendly and nice. And so I have nothing against them. There's no animosity
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or hostility, but it was foreign. When I went to Hungary, I actually felt a little, some of it,
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I feel actually closer to home, but it was still very foreign to me. And if I had moved there,
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I'd still be a foreigner. And because I have no historical connection or anything like that to
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them. And the same thing would be for like the United States. And we as a people have a connection
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to historical events. You can be hospitable, you can receive people, you can be welcoming,
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but you welcome people into a nation in order to bring them into the life of the nation so that
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their subsequent progeny would experience life.
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Like when people question me on this all the time,
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that you're going to be attached to a piece of dirt on the ground more if your grandfather
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worked that land as a farmer than I would just walking outside and looking around. Like if
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that Wolf Ranch means more to me as even though it's really just dirt and some rose bushes and
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a cinder block house, it means more to me than any sort of grand mansion I could walk across
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or observe because of those family connections. So anyway, I just guess, what's that?
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do you still own it we do not um that's a whole other story it's very sad to me there was attempts
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to do that but not unfortunately it was sold um but uh yeah it's still there and it still has a
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if you drive by third avenue in napa california you'll see a sign that's a metal like almost like
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a cartoonish wolf that's on the side of the road in front of that driveway and uh that's it says
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wild wolf ranch on it um and that's what my my uncle my uncle made that and it's still there
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and there's stories of like their friends stealing it and all this stuff then they
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they put it in like cement in the ground so you can't take it it's not going anywhere unless you
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get a angle grinder to it but um anyway so uh yeah so i i think that that conception of nation
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seems to me to be obvious. And if someone is, I think there's something inhuman about
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not letting your love for your loved ones extend into the places that they've been.
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Right. And this is why when people come here from Mexico or wherever, let's say Mexico,
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and it actually in a way makes sense that when the Mexican team shows up in soccer that they
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would wave the mexican flag like i don't think it's right because we've welcomed them and they
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should deliberately choose to support the people that have received them but there is still
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something natural about identifying with that place that your people came from right and so
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i don't really fault them like when people come here in mass and they and they they go in uh
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communities like there's in my area there's these large indian communities and they congregate
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They congregate together, and that itself shows an impulse.
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there's like some american communities in mexico city so there's people who said we got a bunch of
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money let's go buy a huge mansion mexicans mexico city and if i i wouldn't of course do this but if
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i had to do it for some reason i'd probably go to the american district of mexico city uh speak the
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language same customs and not only that they have the same history ancestrally that i do they they
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have the grandfathers in world war ii right so this has been going on for a while like things
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are crazier with immigration today than they've probably ever been. But like the idea of Chinatown,
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Little Italy, these different groups congregating in one centralized geographic region on American
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soil, because that's what we instinctively do. If I move to China, which God forbid,
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but if I, for whatever, what madness drove them there, you know, but if I did, for whatever reason,
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um and this is things that some of my christian brothers just can't for whatever reason they can't
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get or won't get won't allow themselves to comprehend but none of this is a betrayal of
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my christian faith i love the lord jesus christ i love the bible like my my ultimate allegiance is
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to christ but the first thing that i would do if i moved to china for whatever reason is i would
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not seek out christians i would seek out americans i would seek out people that like first and
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foremost that I can actually talk to and understand the language. I'm sure there are precious Chinese
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saints in China that speak another language, and I will enjoy their fellowship for all of eternity
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in heaven. And I look forward to that. But here in this temporal life on earth, I would need somebody
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that I could ask directions from and be able to understand their answer. You know, I would seek
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out the temporal earthly familiarities. And that's not a sin. Yeah. And when I was in Italy,
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you'd hear people in different languages and you'd hear people speak English. And if they're
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speaking an American accent, you're initially drawn to them. And they could be half the world
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away. They could be lefties or whatever, but there's that instant ability for you to say,
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oh, where are you from? And then they say, oh, I'm from, I don't know, New York. Okay. Oh,
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interesting. I went to college in New York. Things like that, where there's a commonality
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where you can now discuss things you wouldn't be able to discuss. There'd be a familiarity.
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So you wouldn't be, the way I define like foreignness is when you enter a space and
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I'd be a part of it, but I'd still be a spectator.
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But I wouldn't want to live my life in that context.
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Yeah, and this is even true in church traditions as well.
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So if you go to a black church, I could be received as a member.
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I could receive the word and sacraments just as much as the guy next to me.
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But there is a sense in which because of the traditions brought to that context,
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I would be a sort of spectator because that is a very black church culture.
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um, again, spiritually fully communicate, but in terms of the culture, I would be a type of
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spectator. Now, again, nothing wrong with that, but, but it's, it just speaks to this, there is
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a, there is a distinct, like, yeah, that's what foreignness is. It's, you become a spectator.
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And even after years and years and years of living in Italy, there's ways that you could
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come to adopt that culture. Um, but I think you're always, you as the first generation is all,
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you're always going to be a spectator. And it's even true for me. I mean, less so, less in degree,
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but as a guy who grew up in California, who went to college in army and decided,
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where are we going to move now? You know, why, where should we go? And so we decided North
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Carolina, North Carolina is in the South. We love the South. We love Southern culture,
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but we're not Southerners. You know, I don't like sweet tea. I'm sorry. I don't, I'm Californian.
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So I like non-sweetened tea, iced tea. Um, I know that I probably offended a bunch of people
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like that um but i i don't you know in texas you have to specify you have to say oh yeah non-sweet
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tea you have to say the default the factory setting is here's your tea in california it's
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like you have to specify a huge either one yeah yeah but anyway i i know that when i go to let's
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say like a a bluegrass festival um then there's that in california too but i feel like when when
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i'm there i still am kind of a spectator and i always will be but in moving there i try not to
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disrupt. I try to support everything that is uniquely Southern. And I want my kids, I want
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my grandkids to go to a bluegrass or some sort of country music thing and they're participants.
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I know that I would never will be like, I really, you know, I have to realize that I'm not going to,
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but they can be that. And that's, that's integration. I hope, I really hope someday
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that at least one of my grandkids has a Southern accent. My kids will not, I can't,
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I can do it ironically, but I want someday that little grandkid to, you know, wow me with the
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Southern accent. So anyway, that's kind of integration. Like even from the theonomic
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perspective on this issue, there is actually a lot of alignment. The theonomic, you know,
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side of the aisle does begin to derail a little bit when it comes to propositions and certain
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things can just be universal and imported. As long as you are a professing Christian, you enter,
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you know, a nation legally, you know, whatever legal processes they have. And as long as you're
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not, you're going to contribute into work, you know, and not expecting welfare or government
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handouts, then, you know, you can go to any nation and be a part of it. However, I will say this,
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even for the theonomist, there is a general equity extraction principle where, you know,
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the scripture that says that for those who, you know, not the sojourner was, it was temporary.
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But for those who really wanted to not only immigrate,
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and a forsaking of those things that were past,
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i'm i'm done with uh moab i your god is my god and not just here's the problem the theonomic
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guy can say uh in some sense it's half of ruth they would say as long as um as long as you're
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able to say your god is my god jesus is lord then that's enough but ruth doesn't just say your god
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will be my god but your people will be my people right um and and your their customs and and their
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history and all these different things. Um, so with that back, back to, you know, this other
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text of scripture that says, um, then in terms of like the full rights, especially when it came
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to the temple and worship and those kinds of the access to, you know, make certain, uh, sacrifices
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and, uh, certain temple, you know, rituals and customs. And, um, you wouldn't be able to do that
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as somebody who immigrated to Israel until the third generation. And then, you know, the scripture
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etches out, you know, uh, in the case of some nations, uh, you know, as a judgment to them
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because of something in the past and the way that they treated Israel in an immoral sense.
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As a judgment, there were some nations that says they wouldn't be able to be fully assimilated
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until the 10th generation. But my point is that even from a general equity standpoint,
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aside from natural law, even with special revelation, the argument seems clear. Whether
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you're coming from the side of the coin, the special revelation or natural revelation, either
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way um what seems obvious as you said i think that's a good way to say it obvious what seems
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obvious is that um you can't move to a country and become that people in 15 minutes that's just
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not a thing and assimilation takes time and and and and also i i don't think assimilation happens
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unless there are certain incentives um so like to me like it's it's a sign of in many ways being a
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defeated nation uh when even in your elections you have uh different languages on the ballot
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like i mean you might as well just say to the world um we're a joke we we've given up yeah we're
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suicidal like what in the world like no no no it should be in english if you can't read the ballot
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then you have no business voting i mean that's insane but but some of the invent uh or not
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inventions, but incentives for assimilating, I think part of it is that you, like, I have to
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learn the language by necessity. I need to understand the customs and the culture by
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necessity. Otherwise, I'm completely isolated. But one of the things, in my mind, just practically
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speaking, one of the ways that incentivizes that is by mitigating immigration. If everyone can come
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all at once, then you never actually have to assimilate. You just, you and your cousin and
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your grandma and 500,000 of your Haitian friends. You all come at once. You all go to the same
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place. You all stay right there. And you're not becoming Americans. You have actually no desire
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to become Americans. You just want to be Haitians in America and take certain benefits for people
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who bled and died and fought and worked and sweated without paying any homage or respect
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at all. To me, that's a nation that's lost the will to live.
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Yeah. And a lot of people, they'll come here for the economic benefits. And like you said,
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that they, their own, and a lot of, and a lot of times they are the lowest skilled people,
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because if you're leaving as a so-called economic migrant, it's because the country that you're in
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cannot hire you. You cannot, you cannot get enough to live. And so you go to a place where
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you can do that. And a lot of these guys will make money and they'll send them back through
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remittance to the Mexico and Central America and South America. So you have a lot of guys coming
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who are interested in an economic system that the American people through generations have created
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and essentially to exploit that system for your gain. Now, it makes rational sense for you to do
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that. If I was living in a country that was very poor and I couldn't get a job, I would want to
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leave as well to go to a place that's prosperous. It's not sinister for the immigrant, but it can
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be, especially in the case of nations like England. It's not sinister necessarily for the
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immigrant. It is sinister for the political leaders to allow it and almost orchestrate it
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against, especially in England, when it's like a real case can be made that the English people
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never voted for that never gave their consent to that and have just been completely sold out
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in england there's been like anti-immigration not necessarily anti-immigrant anti-immigrant
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immigration sentiment for a long time and it's really been for them for us it started in the
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1960s and 70s it accelerated a lot but for them it only began about like 20 30 years ago it was
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a project of the labor party and then the conservative party as well in the late 90s
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early 2000s. And so what they see today in England, which wasn't a very large country
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relative to the United States back then either, is just a huge influx of immigrants that have
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essentially taken over London. And even to this day, and you can be thrown in jail for questioning
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that. You can be thrown in jail for saying that actually sexual assaults have increased
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This shows how the Western mind is so broken
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They've had a reason to have a victim mentality
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and also a reason to say there is an ethnic Irish.
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Like we are a true ethnic group with actual borders
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They have no reason to have a busted brain on this.
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00:27:26.600
it's sweeping throughout the Western world.
1.00
00:27:30.320
And the Irish, the irrationality of the Irish situation
0.99
00:27:34.940
is so obvious, but that same irrationality
0.69
00:27:49.060
So it's, I mean, this is the post-work consensus mentality,
00:27:53.600
The United States, to me, correct me if you think differently, but the United States, to me, certainly, I don't think anybody should be operating under this bone-crushing spirit of guilt.
00:28:04.860
But, you know, historically, and just thinking about it practically, the United States makes sense that it would be the most, out of Western countries, the most susceptible.
00:28:13.320
in the sense that, like, ever since our founding,
00:28:17.980
we've had waves of immigration at various periods of time,
00:28:20.600
whether it was, you know, it's the Irish are coming,
00:28:24.760
And America was, you know, it was predominantly,
0.91
00:28:34.600
there were different, you know, different peoples
00:28:35.980
and different ethnicities represented, you know,
00:28:38.200
early on as a minority and much more of a minority
00:28:42.480
but still present. And whereas if I'm, you know, if I was an Englishman, you know, or a Scotsman
00:28:49.480
or an Irishman, I'd be like, what? No, it's been a thousand years. It's always been us.
00:28:56.500
What are you talking about? You know, like, so I think that America, because of our history,
00:29:02.640
our unique history and the discovery of this massive landmass and everybody coming and,
00:29:07.740
and for a while we needed people to come because we, we actually needed settlers today. There's
00:29:11.540
no more settlers. There's just immigrants. It's been settled. But we had waves of immigration
1.00
00:29:17.520
when there was still lots of land that was unsettled and lots of places and lots of work
00:29:21.700
to be done. And a lot of different people at various points of our history, waves of different
00:29:26.320
countries coming in. There was always problems and animosity and things that had to be sorted
00:29:31.040
out. But a lot of these people came and they did get to work. They really did get to work and
00:29:35.560
became a part of American culture as time went on, not in 15 minutes, but by the time you get
00:29:42.160
It's like, yeah, like the Irish settlers here in America,
00:29:49.560
that mixed with slavery and other things like that,
00:29:51.780
it's like, I can see why America would be susceptible
00:29:57.440
But in my opinion, and you've already kind of said it,
00:30:01.220
it seems like the common denominator is not history.
00:30:09.480
whether they have any reason for it in their history or not if you're white you're guilty
0.96
00:30:13.960
and you're and you've given over to this marxist yeah i mean to be white to be white means you
0.74
00:30:21.580
don't actually have a people you don't have an ethnicity right um only only non-whites can have
00:30:29.040
an ethnicity and this has been part of our language for a while i mean i remember going to
00:30:32.740
the grocery store as a kid and seeing the ethnic aisle and didn't think anything different about it
00:30:51.260
that's like, I guess, a more difficult question
00:31:34.900
and their place is the place they came from.
0.98
00:31:40.220
And this, again, this even infects the Irish mind
0.65
00:31:45.240
that somehow Ireland is no longer a people and a place.
00:31:49.880
And I think what this means is that white people
0.59
00:32:14.320
is that we demand them essentially make everyone else white.
00:32:17.920
Like we're the norm and you guys have to become like us.
00:32:32.940
that you can't actually claim a people and a place.
00:32:38.400
Your people have to be all people in the entire world.
00:32:52.440
White people cannot have a bounded people in place.
1.00
00:32:57.500
So I don't mean white as like a racial category
00:33:01.220
as if I need to claim solidarity with the Russians
00:33:06.020
but just any particular people that happen to be white
00:33:20.060
displace themselves so that they cannot have that.
00:33:22.800
And so it's, I think it's psychologically set up
00:33:29.200
you'll be, you are, you're mentally prepared to be replaced.
0.77
00:33:36.920
Like, I think that's happening absolutely everywhere.
00:33:54.020
And what he says is that basically white people
00:33:57.640
have to be multiculturalists but what that means is that white people cannot have a culture
00:34:05.060
they can't have a people but they they must as a group affirm multiculturalism
00:34:10.980
which means that all other cultures can have people in a place everyone gets to have that's
00:34:16.800
why it's asymmetric it's that you have to affirm it but you affirm their identities your only
00:34:23.780
identity is wrapped up in you affirming their identities. So you can't actually have a people
00:34:28.520
in place at all. And so, and that's not just, that's reflected in policy. It's reflected in
00:34:36.100
the fact that even what I'm saying right now is causing people watching to be uncomfortable.
00:34:40.960
Because I'm actually identifying what you're not supposed to identify. Like it's supposed to be
00:34:46.100
by habit that you'll say that, that you affirm, you know, oh, look at that, you know, they got
00:34:52.000
great food or this that and then you're like oh my food's bland and it's it's junk and we don't
00:34:56.180
have culture like you're my habit meant like all that what all i remember seeing like tiktok videos
0.93
00:35:03.060
of uh uh like like black people making fun of white people for not using spices yeah you know
0.85
00:35:08.940
like uh yeah it's like your food's bland and yeah and then we even pick on the english and say you
00:35:13.840
know and i'll be honest as a white dude i do think that the english food is a bit bland but but we
00:35:18.680
You know, but even that is like me at some level giving into the stereotype that that's kind of,
00:35:25.200
it's similar to what happened with feminism, you know, like all the sitcoms in the 90s,
00:35:29.740
everybody loves Raymond, the Simpsons, and like the husband is always, he's fat, he's lazy,
1.00
00:35:34.160
he's out of shape, and he's dumb. And the wife is, you know, she's sexy and fit and sharp and smart
0.99
00:35:42.060
and competent and rules the roost. And we've done the same thing with race. You know, what we've
0.93
00:35:49.420
done with gender, that white people are the, you know, like the butt of every joke. And you don't
0.99
00:35:56.180
have a culture, your food's bland, or white people can't dance, white people can't jump, white people
0.98
00:36:00.340
can't, yet everybody still wants to live here. Yeah, that is the irony. Well, I mean, the thing
0.98
00:36:07.440
is like being able to laugh at yourself is actually a good quality and the groups that
00:36:13.620
are unable to laugh at themselves we tend to like it's like you need to lighten up like we can make
00:36:19.120
jokes about each other uh for all sorts of reasons but you can do it in a way that still affirms
0.99
00:36:25.040
the difference still affirms there's something positive about you the the thing about white
00:36:29.360
people is we are required to not say anything positive about ourselves we're only we're required
0.79
00:36:35.200
to say only negative things about ourselves so when we talk about western civilization which is
0.77
00:36:40.800
largely speaking a white generated civilization because it's europe which is white um we have
0.73
00:36:49.040
to talk about colonialism and slavery and uh and uh repression of women and all these things we
0.82
00:36:55.520
have to we have to speak of the negative and then when we go to the the obvious goods we want to
00:37:01.040
identify like political liberty um these sorts of things then we have to speak art philosophy yeah
00:37:09.780
dance music um cathedrals and like i mean there's so many yeah we'd have wonderful things we have
00:37:15.080
to speak all those of those in terms of uh universality like they're actually a political
00:37:20.440
liberty yeah maybe like this was generated from the interaction of europeans and also their own
00:37:25.800
experience. But in the end, like liberal democracy is just the universal good. And, uh, oh, by the
00:37:31.700
way, these other countries experienced it too. So it's not unique to Europe. And so you have to
00:37:36.020
universalize it. Um, and so you see these guys, like, like I remember like Paul Miller does this
00:37:41.040
in his book. It's like, yeah, well, yeah, there's angle Protestant liberties, but by the way, also
00:37:44.660
these other countries practice them as well. So it's not a white thing. So you have your impulses
00:37:48.780
in everything particular about white nations is bad. You have to, you have to criticize them
0.99
00:37:55.820
and anything that's good is actually universal, which, which, which then mean that, which then
00:38:01.220
can be attributed to everyone else universally. It's not something we have to claim the bad.
00:38:06.980
That's unique to us. You always have to identify, you can't claim that actually
00:38:10.400
white people can identify as a group only if they're identifying their, their evil for blame,
0.73
00:38:16.020
for blame. But in terms of praise, the undeniables have to be universalized
0.79
00:38:21.560
away from them arising from a European context into something all people
00:38:30.540
would affirm. And oh, by the way, they would have affirmed it if you didn't colonize them
0.85
00:38:36.100
and you didn't exploit them and you turned them into slaves and all that.
00:38:38.860
Right. Real quick with that, all this is really helpful. But on the slavery thing,
00:38:46.020
that was, I think that might've been the first big controversy that I had. And on this one,
00:38:51.560
you know, to, you know, to be fair, uh, part of it is I did word it poorly. So it was, uh,
00:38:57.200
it was actually me and 80 Robles. We were doing an episode together. And I think it was the first
00:39:00.480
time I ever had him on the show. Maybe the second we were just becoming friends. This is close to
00:39:04.900
three years ago at this point. And, um, and we were actually doing an episode, um, defending
00:39:10.480
Doug Wilson, cause he gotten some controversy or whatever. And we both appreciated him and
00:39:14.720
still, still appreciate him. I shouldn't say it like we don't anymore, but, um, you know,
00:39:20.600
but now Doug and I have had some disagreements and so I still appreciate him, but it, you know,
00:39:24.480
it's, it's a little bit complicated at the moment. Um, but back then, you know, just, uh, we were,
00:39:28.920
we did a whole episode on, uh, defense of Doug Wilson, you know, because he's gotten a lot of,
00:39:33.420
uh, flack and a lot of it really has not been fair. And so we were doing that and we were
00:39:37.680
talking about like, Oh, he's gotten flack on, uh, you know, his book, Southern slavery as it was,
00:39:57.960
or started laughing and cut in and said something,
00:40:11.880
And I didn't know, I forgot and didn't finish the thought.
00:40:14.660
And then of course the hackling hints, you know,
00:40:17.820
of the spiritual HR department of examining Moscow,
1.00
00:40:22.520
you know, all the 60 plus feminist ladies, you know,
1.00
00:40:28.580
in a tent in the backyard and hate Doug Wilson and, you know,
00:40:31.800
and write, you know, scathing, unfounded, you know,
00:40:36.360
They, you know, picked me up and they picked me up,
00:40:38.540
not because I was at the time, nobody knew who I was.
00:40:41.360
they literally used me simply as a pawn to say, here's one of Doug's disciples and listen to what
00:40:46.300
he just said. And it was the irony was the whole episode, the purpose was to defend Doug. And I
00:40:51.380
probably got him into more trouble. You know, it's like, thanks for, thanks for helping Joel,
00:40:55.060
you know, because I didn't finish this thought. Here was the thought. I said, you know, like,
00:41:01.340
you know, we, we talk about, you know, slavery and, you know, but the Bible, you know, it says
00:41:06.320
that man stealing is wrong and punishable by death and not just the one who steals, but even
00:41:10.800
the one found in possession of the one who was stolen. These kinds of things are biblical
00:41:14.620
principles. We find it in Leviticus. We find it in, I believe, Exodus chapter 21. And so I was
00:41:19.400
fleshing that out. And I said, but at the end of the day, it's not like white people were going
0.86
00:41:23.220
over to sub-Saharan African countries with human-sized nets, going into the jungle and
00:41:29.380
capturing people. And then AD cut in and we never got back to it. And that one didn't look good.
00:41:34.540
So I'm going to finish it now. Yeah. So three years later, I'm going to actually say what I
00:41:39.680
meant. But this is what I was trying to say. So everybody took that as, Joel thinks slavery is
00:41:44.000
fine as long as you didn't capture the people. And on one hand, I do think that slavery in some
00:41:51.000
forms is permissible. And the reason why I think that is because the Bible says it. I love the
0.86
00:41:54.920
Bible. Let God be true in every man a liar, and I won't apologize for it. That said, though, many
00:41:59.980
of the Confederates, guys like Stonewall Jackson or guys like Robert E. Lee or even Dabney, who I've
00:42:05.900
you know, read a decent amount on. These guys who defended slavery, they did. There's no denying
0.90
00:42:13.360
that. But even these guys, they hated the slave trade. And they wanted to see the slave trade end.
00:42:18.860
And these guys were better guys than many of the people, you know, a part of the union
00:42:22.240
up north, because, you know, they were saying, you know, slavery needs to end today. And part of the
00:42:29.200
concern was the defense of slavery and property and economic activity. That's true. There's no
00:42:33.740
denying that. But part of it also was, what are we going to do with these people? And it was guys
00:42:37.440
like Abraham Lincoln, who, you know, they either like, we'll just drop them back off in the bush
0.51
00:42:43.520
in Africa. Even if you accidentally, the ship goes the wrong direction, you take them to a
0.61
00:42:47.080
whole nother nation, who cares? You know, or one of the more humane. That was a common position.
00:42:51.040
It was. It really was. The founders talked about that as well. Yes. And then another position,
00:42:56.220
a little bit more humane was, well, okay, we'll send them out West. But the reason why that didn't
00:43:01.080
work out wasn't even because of the Confederates necessarily, but because of the Northerners who
00:43:05.640
said, well, wait a second, but we eventually, we're planned to get there. We want to settle
00:43:09.980
the West. We don't want Black neighbors. So it was the Northerners who in so many ways were
1.00
00:43:14.800
really malicious. And a lot of the Confederates, you know, and a lot of the Black people fought,
0.87
00:43:21.040
not at gunpoint from their masters, but they loved the South and they loved, you know, so
00:43:25.040
anyway, so all these things, my point was to say this. So slavery in some cases is permissible.
00:43:29.760
I don't think that it should be race-based, and it certainly shouldn't be man-stealing.
00:43:33.760
The Bible does condemn that, stealing people into slavery.
00:43:36.860
The point that I made about, well, it wasn't white people who were going into jungles in
0.64
00:43:40.200
Africa with human-sized nets and rounding them up.
0.89
00:43:42.240
The point that I was trying to make is, number one, Europeans bought slaves in a race-based
00:43:51.040
slave market, knowing that they were kidnapped.
1.00
00:43:54.680
And the slave trade, I think, was a pernicious evil, and it needed to end.
00:43:58.420
and I praise God for ending it. A lot of other nations, European nations, were able to end it
00:44:02.300
without a war. That sucks for America. I think slavery was a judgment, and I think the Civil War
0.97
00:44:08.620
was a judgment in itself. I think that that was wrong, the way that we ended it. But beyond that,
00:44:14.560
there's plenty of guilt and blame to go around. Africans were conquering each other and selling
1.00
00:44:21.040
themselves into slavery. And when you look statistically, numerically, at the number of
00:44:25.780
slaves, far more of them went to South America than ever came to the United States. And so my
00:44:31.220
point in all that is to say, no, America is not absolved or immune to any critique that could be
00:44:37.980
levied in terms of slavery or the slave trade or racism, which who even knows what that means
00:44:46.640
anymore, you know, but whatever, that's true. And there really is genuine failure and sin.
00:44:53.820
um my point though was to say that a lot of guys look at the west especially in 2020 and 2021 the
00:45:01.840
time that me and ad recorded that episode and they would attribute that to the success
00:45:06.340
of western civilization and say well yeah sure you've been successful and prosperous and all
00:45:10.760
this kind of stuff but that's just because you exploited the rest of the world and enslaved
00:45:13.780
them and if that's the case then what happened to south america they had more slaves than we did
00:45:20.620
How come America is so much richer? No, no, no. God blessed these United States and he didn't do
00:45:26.120
it because of slavery. He did it despite slavery. And that's my point is to say, even for the
00:45:31.800
critiques that can be levied with legitimate history to back them up, like slavery, the point
00:45:38.600
is the whole world at some point, virtually every nation on the planet has had slaves and many of
00:45:44.160
the practice is far more inhumane, enslaving each other, capturing, man-stealing. Africans
0.94
00:45:50.500
were conquering and selling their own people and man-stealing. Europeans were aware of it and bought
1.00
00:45:58.060
them. And there is a guilt imputed for that. The slave trade needed to end. South Americans,
00:46:03.320
though, they were doing it too and buying them at even larger numbers. All these things were going
0.97
00:46:07.240
on. So if you think that the West, its secret sauce and its success is free labor through
00:46:15.900
slavery, then you're an idiot. The whole world has had slaves. And many countries outside of
1.00
00:46:22.360
the West are far more guilty for it. The West, you have to account for the success of the West
00:46:27.560
outside of oppression. That just doesn't, it doesn't have the explanatory power. That was my
00:46:33.240
point yeah yeah and yeah every like you said every every nation every every continent has seen
00:46:40.980
massive amounts of slavery and uh i i think it's been refuted like tons of times that the idea that
00:46:48.280
the reason why the united states was prosperous is because of slavery um economically i think that
00:46:54.480
the end the economic powerhouse was more in the north so there's if you want to say anything it's
00:46:59.160
because of, you know, the capitalists using cheap immigrant labor might be, might be one reason.
00:47:04.760
That's probably a better explanation. And just natural resources. Yeah. Well, I think it's also,
00:47:09.840
I think the better explanation for why the West prospers, it's not geography. I mean,
00:47:14.840
geography plays a part in it, but it's institution building. The fact that the West was able to
00:47:20.780
develop, um, systems of laws, um, customs, like, um, you know, uh, importation, like
00:47:28.460
customs and, and, and, uh, uh, for like markets and, and also technology.
00:47:34.900
So you got the technology factor and you have the, uh, the institution factor that
00:47:40.160
enabled you to do, enabled you to do complex market transactions, um, also with the technology
00:47:49.860
Certainly there was economic value in using slaves,
00:48:00.620
But the distinctive factor was the institutions
00:48:29.400
But primarily it's because of Western development
00:48:35.500
So essentially every time someone leaves poverty
00:48:38.860
and enters into the middle class in say India or China,
00:48:42.760
um it's because of the western civilization and yet all this back to our main theme of
00:48:52.880
what is a nation um it's like this it's this weird dynamic it's like this the superman
00:49:00.500
you know of like um everyone at some level has an expectation and is reliant upon him
00:49:09.540
needs him except in this scenario everyone needs superman recognizes the sense of his unique
00:49:18.300
contributions and simultaneously hates him yeah yeah it's like we're the most racist country on
00:49:26.500
earth and yet everyone wants to come here right it doesn't make any sense at all um if if people
00:49:32.140
are rational if they are rational and and they're choosing to come here then the conclusion is that
00:49:39.400
we're actually not with whatever what the left and we we tell ourselves it's just not the case
00:49:44.680
and and and it's so obvious on its face that here's my my suspicion i can't explain it i've
00:49:51.720
thought about this several times i can't explain that phenomenon of everyone wants to be here
00:49:58.000
everyone the whole world not just you know the west but the whole world has economically benefited
00:50:04.760
from the innovation and the contributions of Western civilization. So everyone wants to be
00:50:09.660
here. And even those who aren't here fare better because of here. And yet also they're the most
00:50:15.780
oppressive, terrible people in the world. These whiteys. How do you account for that? The only
1.00
00:50:20.800
thing I can come up with is I feel like that you can only come, you can only get to this place that
00:50:31.320
we've arrived at with your own people selling you out. I don't think it's just a bunch of,
00:50:37.480
you know, uh, really, you know, hateful, spiteful people in South America or in Africa or in Asia.
0.53
00:50:43.560
I feel like white people, not all of them, not even a general populace, but elites, leaders,
0.56
00:50:53.020
leading white Western civilization, people, politicians or corporationals at some point,
0.52
00:50:59.500
maybe it was slowly, maybe it was calculated, maybe it was organic. But at some point,
00:51:05.300
elites in Western nations had to consciously make that choice to sell out their own people
00:51:10.620
and to hate their own people in order to somehow use that guilt for the GDP to go up,
00:51:21.260
to get cheaper labor, or somehow, some way, with some incentive. I don't think it's just
00:51:26.260
uh the rest of the world finally got tired of all those whites and their oppression like because
0.96
00:51:30.960
there was a time i remember even as a kid you know watching news stories and where a lot of
0.62
00:51:36.640
the world loved us like even the rest of the world learned american hatred from america i feel like
00:51:42.960
in some sense and then it's like well then where did americans get hatred for themselves and to me
00:51:49.080
i can't get away from it like i think it had to have been our leaders i what do you think yeah
00:51:55.240
Yeah. Man, this is the hardest thing to understand. I think, I mean, after World War II,
00:52:03.340
there was a change in mentality. It happened in the 70s. And among conservative circles,
00:52:09.180
it happened in the 80s. I think that there's something to do with the Cold War as well,
00:52:13.100
and that even the strongest conservatives, I guess, they weren't the most right-wing people,
00:52:20.040
but they were on that edge, would differentiate the West from the communists. And the West was
00:52:27.480
freedom, economic opportunity, individual self-determination, whereas communism was
00:52:32.960
highly collectivistic. It was statist and controlling. And so there is that. And that allowed,
00:52:38.320
I think, this mentality that was expressed in the 80s by someone like Ronald Reagan,
00:52:45.160
who would then say that, you know, bring the huddled masses if they come here to work hard,
00:52:49.780
just like the pilgrims and to fight and obtain their freedom, then we want them. And so then
00:52:56.300
he retells, actually, I mean, recrafts the myth of the pilgrims. You know, this was one of his
00:53:04.140
big things. The pilgrims came and they were freeing oppression and they just wanted a better
00:53:09.740
life and economic opportunity. You know, it's a shining city on a hill and that's what we can
00:53:15.020
become a and and he he framed it in terms of like industrial production like gdp and so if someone
00:53:21.780
comes here and they want to contribute to the our well-being in terms of material well-being
00:53:26.740
then come on let them bring so there was no sense of like uh common culture common heritage
00:53:32.720
as long as you make connection if you want to come here and make us richer that's fine and we
00:53:37.900
don't care if you like apple pie yeah i don't care if you like george washington or a history
00:53:42.180
anything like that. Yeah. So he, he basically retold and re like refashioned that, that sort
00:53:46.940
of myth, uh, of, uh, of, um, uh, of like the, the first founding of America with the colonies
00:53:53.320
settling as, uh, as yeah. And, and that to this day, that is what we deal with. So when you talk
00:53:59.900
to someone who is 40 or older, 45, maybe 50 or older, they grew up and they're conservative.
00:54:06.620
They grew up with that mentality. So you are, when you get an argument with an older person,
00:54:11.760
on the idea of ethnicity, the idea of American identity.
00:54:16.840
You're arguing with, yeah, you're arguing with Ronald Reagan
00:54:19.540
mediated through Fox News, you know, decades of socialization through TV.
00:54:24.800
And you're probably not going to win that argument.
00:54:26.580
Unless they were listening to Pappy Cannon in the early 90s
00:54:32.960
But if they had not, that's their conservative approach.
00:54:37.160
but now what we have is people who are younger like 40 45 and younger and they did not experience
00:54:44.780
that they did not grow up watching fox news or talk radio their alternative media is online so
00:54:49.900
now they're now they're able to access another narrative of american history which is far more
00:54:55.400
um well it's actually true what reagan actually said what most of what he said was false
00:55:01.240
um on the pilgrims anyway he also conflated the puritans and pilgrims but that's doesn't matter
00:55:06.960
to academic, but, but yeah, these younger people are able to, to now receive a different narrative
00:55:12.800
of American identity. And so people like you and I are part of that now. What's Joel Berry's
00:55:17.580
excuse then? Is he, is he secretly like 65 years old and he just physically hasn't aged? No, no.
00:55:23.680
Well, yeah, no. Exactly. I'm like, you're too young to be this silly. I think it's probably
00:56:00.160
in the Middle East. Not a comfortable supporter, I'll say, but I don't have any theological
00:56:05.520
love for Israel. But people have this theological love for Israel through dispensationalism and
00:56:11.020
some of the hangovers from that. And that also tends to coincide with the propositional notion
00:56:16.120
of America. Now, there's really no logical connection to those two things.
00:56:20.900
Those come as a pair. And for whatever reason, that's the fact. But yeah, it is like what we
00:56:27.940
have to then combat is this notion that there never was American identity. There never was
00:56:33.920
an American ethnos. It was always multicultural, designed that way from the beginning.
00:56:39.360
We have to push back because that's all false. It's all false. You read the founders on immigration,
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on Protestantism, on the importance of having a similar culture to maintain American order
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00:56:52.060
Liberty, they all affirmed that immigration can actually destroy this country because you import
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00:56:59.600
people of different customs, different conceptions of liberty, different economic, different, you
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00:57:04.740
know, so with all of that, you can actually destroy. And, and, um, I mean, we're probably
00:57:09.540
past time for this episode. We, I can't keep going on and on about that. But we have, but we have,
00:57:15.180
But yes, but we have to go—the first thing is that it's—what we experience now in a
1.00
00:57:22.980
multicultural society is something that wars against human nature. It wars against the human
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00:57:30.520
good as a political community. You cannot have a cohesive political community in which
00:57:35.380
a large portion of those people in a heart live somewhere else.
00:57:41.940
Right. If you live here and your heart is for Mexico or your heart is for Israel or your heart
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00:57:47.900
is for, I don't know, Germany, it doesn't matter. Right. That's great that you have a heart for a
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00:57:52.720
place. That's great. I don't have any problem with that. And let your heart be synced up with your
00:57:56.820
home. Go back. Right. Yeah. Or either go back or cut ties. Right. There's no dual loyalty. You're
00:58:03.500
here and you're an American and you are seeking to become, integrate as an American, historically
00:58:09.220
speaking. We cannot function as a society in which most, which increasingly, this is my fear,
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is my kids and grandkids and great grandkids will live in a society in which they are from here.
1.00
00:58:26.420
This is their home. They have nowhere else to go. But they'll be surrounded by people who all have
00:58:31.440
someplace else to go. They're all from somewhere else in heart, not just ancestral. We're all
00:58:37.400
derivative in some sense, but their heart's somewhere else. And then you try to fashion
00:58:47.260
and hold together a political community. And then, by the way, you who are from here, who have
00:58:52.280
nowhere else to go, are like the enemy. You're the villain of the story. All of the problems of
00:58:59.220
the people who are from somewhere else fall down on you. And now you're the minority. So instead
00:59:04.240
of the majority you're the minority you're the villain and you're surrounded by people who have
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no or very limited ancestral connection to the place that they live whose heart is elsewhere
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00:59:13.920
that's talk about an experiment in liberty right that that is far beyond the experiment of liberty
00:59:20.600
in uh from the founding and that's where we're going and that scares me for my love my my my
00:59:27.100
my yet to be borns, you know, my, yeah, they are going to be subjected to that. Like I almost
00:59:35.260
saying like that, that is what most likely they're going to be subjected to. Um, unless
00:59:39.800
something happens, unless we all change our mentality and say, you know, either be American
00:59:46.220
or go somewhere else. Right. Yeah. When I first started delving into some of these things and
00:59:52.020
learning. Um, my initial reaction was, you know, shock, surprise, then quickly followed up by
00:59:59.320
anger. Um, I don't feel angry anymore. That phase went pretty quick for me. Um, but I do feel sad
01:00:07.520
and not sad for myself because self-pity is not really virtuous. Um, but I, I'm a dad. I've got
01:00:14.840
five kids and one day, Lord willing, I hope to be a grandfather. And unless something changes,
01:00:34.220
to think that everyone else, all their neighbors,
1.00
01:00:38.040
I mean, even now, most of my neighbors are either Hindu
01:00:51.380
And when I think of that, and that's today, 2024, when I think of my grandchildren, you know, in their mid-20s or early 30s, having kids and buying their first home, and I think of if this trajectory continues, they'll be surrounded by all their neighbors having this place as theirs and another place where their heart is, home somewhere else.
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01:01:14.240
and my grandchildren have nothing like this is they don't have anywhere else to go they don't
01:01:19.540
have another home this was the only home they ever had they're a minority in their own home
01:01:23.580
that their fathers actually built and uh and their minority have no say so they don't they
01:01:30.100
can't leave but they also can't really stay not within and it's just it's it's it's one you know
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01:01:38.620
at first you're like oh man we should be angry at this point i'm just sad and i just hope you
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01:01:43.780
One of my prayers is I just hope that Westerners will listen and wake up and stop hating their
01:01:52.000
future grandchildren. Don't hate your kids. And don't hate your fathers. It's a hatred of your
01:01:58.060
fathers. And it's like despising of the past and despairing for the future. Whereas the only way
01:02:06.480
that we can move forward is honor for the past and hope for the future. Honor the past, hope for
01:02:12.600
the future versus despising the past and despairing of the future. And yeah, but if we continue to
01:02:20.100
believe all these lies that have been said about, you know, all the founders were terrible,
01:02:25.260
oppressive people and this, that, and the other, like every nation has that history. Every nation
01:02:30.220
can look back to the 1800s and find political leaders in their nation that were 10 times worse
01:02:35.500
than George Washington or anything like that. And yet they don't, other people don't hate their
01:02:39.560
nation they love their nation they're proud of it they're proud of it because it's theirs and
01:02:45.000
we're the only ones who actually have a better history a more moral history and and yet somehow
01:02:51.460
are just completely ashamed and so yeah it's just yeah it's not viable i think going forward like i
01:02:58.740
emphasize like the psychological aspect of it a lot and and i think what people need to do and
01:03:05.520
there is a pit there is a pitfall on the side on the side of this but i i think there's a habit of
01:03:11.280
the mind that like when you and i talk about this we can talk about it very comfortable because we've
01:03:15.520
essentially desensitized ourselves to what we're socialized into which is to avoid these kind of
01:03:21.840
conversations right like the idea of talking about white people and saying something good about them
01:03:26.360
uh feels uncomfortable to people psychologically they say wait a second stop stop stop it's in
01:03:32.780
your mind you feel like it's it's like when a lot of people if they talk about stuff like this over
01:03:38.000
like just you like the you and you and your spouse and you talk about this you're in your
01:03:43.620
own kitchen by yourself and you start talking quietly you're looking over your shoulder there's
01:03:47.620
no one in the room but you you know that but you start talking quietly well i'll tell you why
01:03:51.640
because your wife might call the elders well yeah yeah that's true and turn you in for church
01:03:56.740
discipline yeah but barring that though you're both on the same page there still is that tendency
01:04:02.560
to do that. And whenever you have that tendency to do that, you need to check yourself
01:04:11.180
and do a self-assessment and criticize your own habits of your mind and get rid of that stuff.
01:04:20.440
And that includes all that. It's not until you get freed from that habit of the mind that's
01:04:28.940
been that's not the call of conscience to go towards what is good that is your mind having
01:04:35.920
been shaped by socialization to not think in certain ways right by the way to not think in
01:04:42.540
ways that everyone else but you can actually think and say and and do all they do anything they want
01:04:47.740
and self-affirm um so you have to get you have to get in that habit and it's something that i
01:05:01.760
kind of conversations or these kind of thoughts.
01:05:21.800
like literal animosity as a, as a group where you would, where you'd go so far as, um, again,
1.00
01:05:29.380
a left-wing term, but it's appropriate dehumanize. So if you, if you're, uh, like, don't, you know,
01:05:35.780
the, you see memes going around of like blacks being like monkeys or something like that. Like
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01:05:39.480
don't, that stuff's that's bad. If there is racism, that's racism. So that that's where you've like,
01:05:45.620
you've desensitized your conscience. Like that's gone too far.
01:05:55.380
But in everything that's good, there's always a possibility of abuse.
01:05:58.920
So don't put up a guardrail that makes you nationally suicidal or makes you self-degrading
01:06:08.400
Don't take that away, but retain that natural guardrail, which is to prevent you from sin.
01:06:15.940
But at this point, there's actually, I would say we're psychologically engineered to sin against ourselves.
01:06:23.260
And you need to get that, clear that sin out of your mind without going too far and jumping into sin itself.
01:06:31.180
So next episode, did you ever watch the movie Inception, Leonardo DiCaprio?
01:06:38.040
Sometimes with these long form conversations with our special show that's multiple parts,
01:06:42.680
sometimes you have to do a series within a series.
01:06:45.940
And so this is what I'm thinking is, you know, this is episode three now and we're answering
01:06:52.000
the question, what is a nation or at least trying to, that's our goal.
01:06:55.980
And so I'm thinking, you know, this is a 10 part series at large and I'm thinking series,
01:07:02.460
I think we need a two parter on what is a nation.
01:07:05.960
So what we've hit so far is, and it's not like we didn't cover any ground.
01:07:14.220
Uh, but if I was to recap, I think what we've hit, you know, big picture so far in this first
01:07:18.760
episode, um, of what is a nation, the series within a series is, um, home in history that,
01:07:26.120
that that's, that's integral to a nationhood. Um, and so what I would like to do in the, in the
01:07:31.740
next, um, episode is, uh, again, like kind of a part two on what is a nation. And I have six
01:07:39.620
components all start with the letter L. And I got these from my friend, Michael Belch,
01:07:44.760
who sent you actually a part of his rough draft with the book and might get a blurb from you.
01:07:51.820
We'll get a blurb, great. Get an endorsement for that. But he's going to be publishing it soon,
01:07:56.640
either with us, with Right Response, or we might publish through New Christendom Press,
01:08:00.180
and they've expressed interest. But his whole book, you wrote The Case for Christian Nationalism,
01:08:06.160
I mean, his is called The Biblical Case for Nations.
01:08:14.240
and it's land, lineage, language, laws, loves, and liturgy.
01:08:22.400
Land, lineage, language, laws, loves, and liturgy.
01:08:30.820
we've kind of been talking about land and lineage
01:08:33.220
in a lot of ways, family, home, heritage, history. But then to go beyond that and talk about
01:08:40.980
commonality with liturgy, worship, that there's a shared sense of worship and that a nation really
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01:08:48.780
can't survive with all these different religions, you know, where none of them is, it's one thing
0.99
01:08:54.800
to tolerate other religions as minority representation, but to say that every religion
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is equal and none of them get any preference, or if anything, all the other religions, the false
01:09:04.580
religions from foreign people who've immigrated in, that they get the preference. And the dominant
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religion, Christianity, becomes the butt of every joke and gets the least. That's just not, again,
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viable. So I would love to, in the next episode, talk about those four L's, land, lineage, laws,
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loves language and and liturgy and i think that um because nationhood uh it is more than land and
01:09:30.540
lineage particular people particular place um but it's it's not less it is that and i think that's
01:09:37.400
what we first established and we can get into that a little bit more but um it's it's never
01:09:42.060
less than people in place but uh but it also is to be fair more than people in place and i think
01:09:46.940
you can add those other components without going full boomer into propositional nationhood so