The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - A Primer on Theonomy with David Reece

00:00:00 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000

00:00:05 downloads. What made the difference? You leaving us a five-star review. The more positive reviews,

00:00:11 the more the algorithm picks us up, and more people are confronted by the law and gospel of

00:00:17 Jesus Christ. Help us press forward the crown rights of King Jesus by leaving us a five-star

00:00:24 review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. All right, welcome back to another episode of

00:00:29 Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries. Now,

00:00:34 in this episode, this is going to be the very first installment on a multiple-part series that

00:00:40 will be continuing over the course of this entire year. And I'm going to be having the same guest

00:00:45 returning again and again and again, a friend of mine, Mr. David Reese. He is the CEO of Armored

00:00:52 Republic. He's been incredibly successful in the realm of business. He's also a pastor of a

00:00:58 Presbyterian church. There's a lot of like-mindedness. We have a similar doctrine and see eye to eye on

00:01:04 a lot of things. And so I want to utilize him in mapping out kind of this deep dive, a returning

00:01:11 series, multiple part series, covering one dominant theme, which is Christian power. For decades now

00:01:19 within evangelicalism, Christians have become convinced that power is icky. Ooh, power. God 0.78

00:01:27 doesn't want us to have power. God is exceedingly pleased and impressed when Christians are utterly 1.00

00:01:33 weak. Well, that's not true. It's not. Power is not inherently evil. We are called and even 1.00

00:01:39 commanded to exercise godly dominion in every single realm of life, and I believe that David

00:01:45 has done this well in many different practical ways, in the ecclesiastical realm with his church,

00:01:50 but also in the realm of vocation, markets, business. We want to be masters of our domain,

00:01:58 pushing for the crown rights of King Jesus, pushing back the kingdom of darkness. And so 0.98

00:02:03 this is going to be, again, the first installment on a multiple part series talking about what is

00:02:09 Christian power? How can we wield it for the glory of God? What is the key from scripture,

00:02:14 the roadmap for attaining power and executing power in a godly way. So without further ado,

00:02:23 I'm going to welcome our guest, and we'll get started with today's episode of Theology Applied.

00:02:28 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:02:38 Our guest, without further ado, is Mr. David Rees. Welcome to the show, brother.

00:02:44 Joel, it's an honor to be here.

00:02:45 Thank you for having me on.

00:02:47 You're welcome.

00:02:47 Go ahead and tell our listeners a little bit just about yourself.

00:02:50 What do you do, your family, church, the whole nine yards?

00:02:54 Great.

00:02:54 So I'm a pastor at Puritan Reform Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

00:02:58 I'm the CEO of Armored Republic.

00:03:00 We manufacture body armor.

00:03:03 Our mission statement is that we create tools of liberty for free men to defend their God-given

00:03:07 rights against tyrants and criminals for the honor of Jesus Christ.

00:03:11 And in addition to that, I have a crown of a wife, and I have six awesome kids.

00:03:16 I had the honor of getting to officiate the wedding for my oldest son recently, so that was an emotional experience.

00:03:26 So that was all great. So that's the key things that are going on with me.

00:03:30 Great. Well, let's go ahead and dive right into it.

00:03:33 We want to talk about the reformed uses and divisions of the law of God as the blueprint for exercising dominion.

00:03:41 And so if we were to, you know, we'll see what we end up titling this episode when we roll it out beginning of next year, Lord willing.

00:03:47 But probably something along the lines of, you know, we were talking offline preparing Christian power was your idea, which I think is a great idea because so many people in the church, especially evangelicals, Catholics don't seem quite as bothered by it as Protestants do. 0.63

00:04:01 But the Protestant, especially evangelical Christian, when it comes to power, they're like, ooh, that's icky. 0.92

00:04:09 They just have this default mindset that power is inherently wicked and evil, and if we want to be as pleasing to God as possible, we need to be as weak and pathetic as possible. 0.97

00:04:21 So what do you think about that? Let's go ahead and just kick it off right there. 0.97

00:04:24 Yeah, so I think Christian power is not only something that's good to possess, but it's also a mandate.

00:04:30 In fact, when God created, he gave man authority, and authority is the legal right to rule,

00:04:36 and the idea about authority is that you're supposed to exercise power according to that

00:04:41 mandate.

00:04:42 So God gave the dominion mandate, gave authorization, and required the exercise of power to work

00:04:49 and keep, to tend the garden and to keep it.

00:04:52 So working is using power to build stuff.

00:04:55 It's additive, and then keeping is preserving the gains that have been attained.

00:05:00 And so this obligation to use power in terms of constructive exercise, but also in terms of a protective exercise, that's obligation.

00:05:09 And so, in fact, you can't understand the law if you don't understand the way in which the law is a whole, it's an authorization network, right?

00:05:16 It's a system of authorization for action.

00:05:18 And so this idea that we aren't supposed to exercise power because it's somehow evil, we are the image of God, we're rational beings, and we're given authorization as prophet, priest, kings to exercise power to fulfill the mission of filling the earth with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

00:05:38 by having lots of babies and teaching them all sorts of awesome truth from the Word of God

00:05:43 and grabbing hold of those that have fallen away, that are people that have been in the

00:05:49 visible church and left, or those who are outside into the world, and teaching them to repent and

00:05:54 believe the gospel. Amen. Yep. I like, you know, the work and keep work is, when you think of Adam

00:06:02 in the garden, you know, pre-lapsarian world, if he was working the garden properly, it wouldn't

00:06:08 just flourish in that specific locale. It would have naturally expanded. It would have eventually

00:06:14 filled the whole face of the earth. And so, you know, so there's this sense of working means

00:06:19 it's building, it's expansion, it's, you know, of the increase of his government. There shall be no

00:06:23 end. Christ is the second, the final Adam. But I also think of, you know, Ezra and Nehemiah and 0.95

00:06:29 the rebuilding of the temple, you know, that's the sword and trowel. So there's that expansion

00:06:33 building, but then you have to defend what you're building. And, you know, I've told our church

00:06:37 before that the sword only really exists to serve the trowel. If you're not building, then you don't

00:06:43 even really need a sword because nobody's, the only reason why you have enemies is because you're

00:06:48 actually expanding the kingdom of God. You're pushing back on the gates of hell. You're pushing

00:06:53 back on the kingdom of darkness and you're a threat. If you're not a threat, if you're not

00:06:58 building you're not a threat and if you're not a threat you don't need a sword um the sword serves

00:07:02 the trial it defends it keeps the gains like what you were saying earlier and so there's there's so

00:07:07 much image imagery in the scripture whether it's the rebuilding of the temple in jerusalem or

00:07:12 whether it's the garden before sin ever entered the world or whether of course christ himself is

00:07:16 the final adam um at every level we see you know building and then um defending it's you know it's

00:07:22 it's to provision and protection um the sword and the trial so um but you're saying that the law of

00:07:28 god serves as the blueprint for how we actually do that that it's not just a blank canvas for

00:07:33 man's own creative license and freedom but god actually has a pattern for exercising dominion

00:07:39 of the world right absolutely you mentioned genesis and you talked about how you know there's

00:07:43 this command to subdue the whole earth and so subduing of the earth is making a habitation

00:07:47 where man can go so the making of garden is sort of the initial thing there but you look at like

00:07:52 gen at revelation for example and the fulfilled version of that is garden city right so there's

00:07:56 this glorious beauty where man can live in habitation with all the comforts of the beauties

00:08:01 of nature subdued and at the same time all the beauties of artifice right so nature and artifice

00:08:06 and harmony being used and subdued by man and doing that and you look at the way that the earth

00:08:13 is set up where where you have initially before the fall and also before the flood before the

00:08:19 face of the earth was dramatically changed you had the garden of eden there were four rivers that

00:08:23 running out of it and rivers you know historically have been the highways for the transit that's

00:08:27 necessary for trade and communication right so you had these rivers going out from sort of this hill

00:08:32 garden you know and and then you had the lists of the stuff that was sort of along those rivers

00:08:37 which like oh over here there's gold and havila and stuff like that and so it's like here's the

00:08:41 trade goods that could be acquired here's the you go set up places and you can acquire different

00:08:44 things and they're going to be able to have a trade network where they could use that system

00:08:48 of rivers to go back to a central trade hub that is eden and so there's this whole setup for

00:08:53 dominion there so god clearly gave that you know in the in our reform standards for example in the

00:08:58 westminster confession of faith or in the london baptist confession chapter 16 is on good works

00:09:03 and it says uh in the very beginning of that section one it says that there are no good works

00:09:07 except for those things that are given to us by warrant from the word of god so good works are

00:09:12 not the things without the warrant of the law of god and so what god commands tells us what we're

00:09:17 authorized to do and you might look at that and go you know whoa how do we do that how do we say

00:09:22 that? How do we take that view? Well, first of all, God's not an idiot. He designed us. He designed

00:09:28 the world, and the law is explaining for us as a schematic outline how we're designed and how the

00:09:35 world is designed. So it tells us, for example, in the fifth commandment, if you honor lawful

00:09:39 authority, it's going to result in longer life and greater prosperity. You can find all sorts

00:09:44 of other promises of blessing or threatenings of curses all over the place in the law, and the

00:09:49 Westminster Larger Catechism in Question 99 has this great thing where it has this list of

00:09:53 principles that you can apply while reading the law. It helps you to kind of unpack the law,

00:09:57 and it becomes this very full thing. So if we realize that the law of God is designed,

00:10:01 and we talked about this working and keeping, all of the commandments have this, here's a

00:10:05 positive duty that you're supposed to build with. So the commandment to not murder is the

00:10:09 commandment to preserve life, to increase life, and to protect life. And then the commandment to

00:10:15 not murder in the negative element there. The keeping is, you know, don't murder, don't attack,

00:10:20 don't knock out somebody's tooth, don't knock out somebody's eye. And so you've got the preserving

00:10:24 element and you've got this positive element, the constructive piece. And you can take that

00:10:29 positive and negative element and go to every one of the laws that are given to us in the Ten

00:10:33 Commandments, but also all the little sub cases, the case laws and stuff like that. So we're going

00:10:38 to talk about kind of the organizing principles for the law here, but that's just that foretaste

00:10:42 is there's this amazing logical organization

00:10:45 around the positive and negative elements of the law.

00:10:47 Amen.

00:10:48 Yeah, it's a blueprint.

00:10:49 David delighted, King David delighted in the law of God.

00:10:52 It wasn't just a begrudging submission.

00:10:55 A lot of times we see the law of God,

00:10:57 you know, people always say,

00:10:58 well, we're under grace, not under law,

00:10:59 which is a complete misunderstanding

00:11:01 of what it means to be under grace,

00:11:03 what it means to be under law

00:11:05 in terms of, you know, the law actually condemning us.

00:11:07 We're no longer, if you're in Christ,

00:11:09 you're not condemned by the law.

00:11:10 But the law of God,

00:11:11 the better way i think to view it is um that it's it's like the life hack for god's living in god's

00:11:17 world it's it's the um it's the the not just the blueprints but it's um you know i think of uh back

00:11:24 to the future um that uh what was his name bip or something you know this this guy and he he had uh

00:11:30 he found the sports almanac and then he took it back to the past and was betting on all the games

00:11:35 you know because he knew what the outcomes would be uh that's what the law of god is like that you

00:11:39 the law of god um it it really is a treasure it's it's it's not um a mere constraint it's saying

00:11:46 uh this is how things will go well with you you you plug and play this is how god designed the

00:11:51 world this is how he set it up to work um if you live in god's world uh in this way then uh then

00:11:57 things will go well and that's so like the law of god it's it's uh you know whether it's ezra you

00:12:02 know dusting off you know the book of the law like it's it's to be cherished it's a roadmap for

00:12:07 success in living in god's womb so um let's yeah let's go ahead and and uh maybe start with you

00:12:13 know wherever you want to go but maybe divisions of the law or uses of the law what do you think

00:12:17 we should go next i think first you know one of the things you gordon clark says in a lot of his

00:12:21 writings he says if you don't define your terms you don't know what you're talking about and i

00:12:24 think you quoted earlier this idea you know we're under grace not under law you know how is that

00:12:28 term being used in that particular text you know it's very specifically talking about how we are

00:12:33 under the covenant of grace, whereby, you know, we're saved by faith apart from the works of the

00:12:38 law, not under law as in the covenant of works, right? That's the context in that passage. And so

00:12:44 what I want to say is there's three ways of defining the term law, and there's three ways

00:12:47 of defining the term gospel. And if you read the Bible, you've got to know which sense is being

00:12:52 used, right? So the term law can be used to mean specifically the commandments, like what you ought

00:12:58 to do. And those can be used as a covenant to show you your guilt, or they can be used,

00:13:04 and we talk about the uses of the law, they can be used to show you your guilt and your need of

00:13:08 a Savior, which is one of the things that happens with the covenant of works. But then there's also

00:13:13 the fact that it's a chain that binds evil, restrains it, and it's also a lamp unto the

00:13:18 feet of those who are regenerate to know how to live wisely and well. So there's the first

00:13:25 definition is a commandment. Second definition is the law sometimes is used to refer to the old

00:13:29 covenant, the Old Testament, right? The covenant of grace given to Adam all the way up until we

00:13:35 have the new covenant with Christ, that whole chunk, what we call the Old Testament, is a way

00:13:39 of using the word law. And other times you can see the word law used to refer to just the whole

00:13:43 word of God. And so those three uses, the commandments or the Old Testament or the idea

00:13:50 of the whole Word of God.

00:13:51 So the term gospel actually has basically the same uses.

00:13:55 The word gospel can be used to refer to the whole Word of God.

00:13:57 It can be used to refer to the New Testament,

00:13:59 or it can be used to refer to the indicatives, the promises,

00:14:03 the statements of facts, right?

00:14:05 So it can be used on a very small grammar level,

00:14:07 or it can be used to refer to the Old Testament, New Testament,

00:14:10 the law gospel, or you can have law gospel both being used

00:14:13 to mean the whole Word of God.

00:14:13 So you have to, when you're reading a passage,

00:14:16 know which thing is being talked about.

00:14:17 Right. That's good.

00:14:19 So as we build from there, and we talk about the uses of the law,

00:14:22 the law, when we talk about the commandments,

00:14:24 the rest of the show, we're not talking about just the whole Word of God,

00:14:28 or we're not just talking about the Old Testament.

00:14:30 We're talking about, very specifically, the imperatives, the commands.

00:14:34 When God says, do this, that's what we're talking about.

00:14:37 And so when we look at that, we need to understand that there are,

00:14:42 in terms of the use of those commands,

00:14:44 there are sort of three levels where you can look throughout the Bible

00:14:47 and you can find the things that God says, do this and don't do that.

00:14:51 And so when you're looking through the scriptures, those three levels are,

00:14:53 you've got what are these big commands, the principles, right?

00:14:56 So you can think about, like, love God, love your neighbor.

00:14:59 Those are the two organizing principles for the law.

00:15:00 The Ten Commandments can be broken into the two tables underneath that.

00:15:04 And so those are the big principles, the love God, love neighbor,

00:15:06 or then the Ten Commandments can be organized underneath those.

00:15:09 And those are the principles.

00:15:10 And historically, the word that's been used, it's the $10 word, is the apodictic law.

00:15:15 So the commands that are at this big principle level that you can't really ignore,

00:15:20 that this obviously is a commandment from God.

00:15:22 And then the next level down is the case laws, which are called casuistic.

00:15:27 You can see the connection there, the word case and casuistic case law.

00:15:32 And so these are the if-then statements, right?

00:15:34 So the first one's the big principles.

00:15:35 Then you've got the if-then statements.

00:15:36 And lastly, you've got examples, and the examples that are either approved or disapproved.

00:15:42 And so the approved examples are obviously given to us for example to follow.

00:15:45 The disapproved examples are given for us to know that we should avoid a similar fate or a similar path.

00:15:50 And so those are the three levels.

00:15:51 And when you take all of the big principle commandments, the case laws, and organize them under those commandments,

00:15:57 and then take the examples and organize them in relationship to the case laws and the big principles,

00:16:01 that's how you get a systematic view of the law that gives you a blueprint for all of life that is sufficient for every rational choice.

00:16:08 Right. That's great.

00:16:09 all right everybody's been asking can i live stream your conference and the answer is a

00:16:15 resounding no you will be there in person or you will not be there at all i'm just kidding you

00:16:20 actually can live stream the conference we're excited to announce we're making it available

00:16:24 to anybody and everybody who wants to watch this conference right as it's happening which is march

00:16:30 1st and 2nd that's a friday and saturday of 2024 what conference am i even talking about it's called

00:16:36 blueprints for Christendom 2.0. We've got Pastor Douglas Wilson, we've got Dr. Joe Boot, we've got

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00:16:48 primary sessions in the conference, each one being probably 50 to 60 minute long sessions, lectures,

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00:17:05 wilson available for that panel and we decided to get eric khan because eric khan biblical

00:17:10 patriarchy let's just be honest it's a sensitive topic but eric khan i think is known as one of

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00:17:20 to have him as a part of that panel it'll go really well then the second panel is haunted

00:17:25 cosmos live show you've got brian sauve and ben garrett talking about the most unhinged things

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00:18:18 God. That's great, and we thank you. Either way, technically, it's only $10. The danger of

00:18:23 centralized power is often represented by the word king. As Americans, we hate the word king.

00:18:31 Civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased power to resist tyrants

00:18:37 and criminals. And so Armored Republic is about helping you to preserve your God-given rights to

00:18:44 the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ because he is the king of kings and he governs kings and he

00:18:49 will judge them. This is Armored Republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ.

00:18:57 We are free craftsmen, and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice.

00:19:15 I like what you were saying earlier in terms of, you know, the big principles starting,

00:19:18 you know you were using the sixth commandment thou shall not murder um that so many so much of

00:19:23 the case laws that we find um they're all stemming from the the positive assertion of if thou shall

00:19:29 not murder then thou must esteem and protect and preserve uh human life made in the image of god

00:19:34 and so whether it's you know a precipice you know on the border of the roof um it's the same same

00:19:40 kind of mindset there is you know we're esteeming human life we're protecting uh human life and so

00:19:45 you know you're taking all these different case laws and they all find their roots you know their

00:19:49 their equity in one of these major um principles that god has uh has designed for us and so we're

00:19:56 not saying it's a one-to-one ratio of uh you know old testament israel under the old covenant and

00:20:02 then dropping that down in 2023 america but it is the same principles the same equity that's

00:20:08 immutable it's unchanging um and so we're not you know we're not on the uh the roofs but find me a

00:20:14 balcony uh that doesn't have uh a railing like we still do we still do this none of this is novel

00:20:20 or has changed we're you know 2 000 years removed from christ and yet we're still um as a even

00:20:27 post-christian society we you know we're still looking at the law of god um even if we don't

00:20:32 realize it even subconsciously and and applying that in our given place and time and when we do

00:20:37 that uh faithfully we're blessed and when we don't and we spurn the law of god uh then we're cursed

00:20:43 absolutely and i think i'm not sure where you land on this i'd be really interested in your

00:20:48 in your thoughts on this but i mean my my understanding of all the case laws and

00:20:52 everything is that there's a general principle of equity right there's a principle of justice

00:20:55 that's applicable universally um and that basically that the pieces that are technological

00:21:00 don't necessarily have a binding on us the things that are particular to israel but that everything

00:21:05 else is going to teach to us some sort of a principle that we need to apply to properly

00:21:10 understand justice yes absolutely yeah yeah even even a baby goat being you know boiled alive in

00:21:17 its mother's milk um you know i've used that uh particular law um to uh to preach against the

00:21:25 hormonal birth control pill because uh the milk of the mother that mother goat uh the reason why

00:21:32 it's improper uh to use that milk of a mother goat in order to boil alive its baby its young kid

00:21:39 is because the milk is the life source.

00:21:43 And so it's a perversion of taking that which is meant to produce and grant life

00:21:49 and using it as an instrument of death. 0.71

00:21:51 Likewise, then looking at a woman's womb as a conduit for life and thriving and hospitality

00:22:01 and taking the very place, the very context, the womb of a mother 0.97

00:22:07 and making it a death trap, whether it's, you know, thinning the uterine wall, you know,

00:22:12 with all these different implications that happen from the hormonal birth control pill

00:22:17 that take what's supposed to be the safest place on earth and a place that is a source of life and

00:22:23 growth and thriving and makes it a place of poison and death. You know, so, you know, and you could

00:22:31 just go from the sixth commandment, that shall not murder. But the point is there's multiple laws,

00:22:35 even not boiling a baby goat in its mother's milk and you can you can take that as your primary text

00:22:41 on the lord's day and preach that um as it pertains to um abortion and it's absolutely a right a right

00:22:48 in my opinion um use and application of the law of god what do you think yeah no i think that's

00:22:53 that's a beautiful application i would say that i think that that particular law is a ceremonial

00:22:57 law and i think that you're taking the moral precept that's there in that symbolism and giving

00:23:01 right application in the examples that you just gave. So whether we would both, whether I would

00:23:06 put it under civil or ceremonial, you know, a different, you know, a smaller part of that.

00:23:11 I'm going towards ceremonial on that one too. And that's where I probably differ from a few guys

00:23:15 is that I look at some of the ceremonial laws and I'm like, I think the general equity of

00:23:19 the ceremonial laws is still applicable as well. Like a man can't go into the house of the Lord 0.78

00:23:25 if his testicles are crushed. I think there's some general equity there that men need to be men and 0.97

00:23:30 not be emasculated and that uh worship in the house of god requires uh if you're a man um it

00:23:37 forbids effeminacy and like i feel like you can you can take that's certainly ceremonial but i

00:23:41 feel like i can take that and i can preach it so yeah i think that's a powerful thing so i don't

00:23:46 think it's obviously it's interesting part of isaiah prophesies a time uh where there will be

00:23:51 you know a sabbath that is it is during the time where there are going to be eunuchs who come into

00:23:55 the house of god which is about the you know the gospel era church and i think that that's the way

00:24:01 in which they're able to enter in there and so there's not actually of course a need for eunuchs

00:24:05 to stay out of the symbol of the church but that yes that it is i think that application of why are

00:24:12 they kept out because there's some way in which there's some damage to the construction of that

00:24:16 man and so i think that you're right that there's a destruction of their their masculinity that's

00:24:20 occurring i agree the symbolism there so the application yeah i agree with and i think you

00:24:24 i'm sure you would agree that you wouldn't tell eunuchs to stay away from your lord's day right

00:24:27 but not in a literal sense no but i would tell spiritual eunuchs um who are effeminate that they

00:24:34 should repent yeah that's that's fair the chapter 19 of the of the westminster confession and again

00:24:41 also the london baptist you have the chapter on the wall and it talks about you know the the division

00:24:47 in terms of the types of law right so there's the moral civil and ceremonial which we've been

00:24:50 talking about. So the moral law is obviously going to be those things that are applicable that have

00:24:55 been given even since the writing of the law on the heart of Adam in its uncorrupted form. Then

00:24:59 there's the corruption of the nature that occurs with the fall. And so then you have this corrupted

00:25:04 law written on the heart. But then there's the giving of the commands through propositional

00:25:08 revelation as well, captured for us, for example, in Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5, where you've got

00:25:14 the Ten Commandments laid out in those two passages. And so when you have the moral law

00:25:19 given the two great commands, the Ten Commandments, that being the organization of them.

00:25:23 We've got all these moral principles that are given to us.

00:25:26 And then there's the civil law, which applies specifically to the state.

00:25:30 And the civil law is applicable only to Israel in its very particular form.

00:25:35 And that state has expired, and so those laws no longer apply.

00:25:39 But it is a tool to teach us the general principles of justice, like we were just talking about.

00:25:43 So that language of general equity comes from the discussion of the civil law,

00:25:48 where there's, you know, general equity can also be referred to as common law or principles of

00:25:53 justice that are universal would be another way of saying that. I think the common law is an effort

00:25:57 by Christians historically to take the civil law and make applications to every nation. And so when 0.96

00:26:03 you read, you know, Calvin's Institutes, he sounds a little bit like a guy who's kind of running away

00:26:09 from the application of a lot of those details. But when you read him writing when he's older,

00:26:13 for example, and you read his commentary on Deuteronomy, he just all of a sudden sounds

00:26:17 like a hardline theonomist. And it's because I think he's had to work through a lot of stuff

00:26:22 as he got older, interacting with the council in Geneva and stuff like that, where they're trying

00:26:26 to figure out what's just in this situation. And he's having to go to the passages of Scripture

00:26:30 and draw it out. So if you interpret the Institutes from Calvin, for example, in a way that

00:26:35 is different from how he applies it when he's dealing with the exegesis of the text in Deuteronomy,

00:26:40 I'll tell you what, I'd rather go with his detailed exegesis of Deuteronomy and his harmonizing of

00:26:44 law than to try to go with some of those general broad statements where he's giving a theoretical

00:26:48 application of the common law and distancing it from the mosaic law. So I think he gave to us an

00:26:53 excellent example in his commentaries of what he actually means. And so I would say that civil law,

00:26:59 we have to take it in the same way and think about the case laws teaching us about justice.

00:27:04 And it's going to teach us about principles for administration and things like cities of refuge.

00:27:08 You don't have to have seven cities of refuge laid out exactly the same way that Israel does,

00:27:12 but it's going to teach us about the idea that you need a place where people can go to higher

00:27:16 courts and be free from mob rule when there's a high-level crime that's occurring and there's

00:27:21 going to be a trial. So you're separating out from a biased jury or biased judicial system

00:27:26 to have these courts of appeal. And those are examples of where you would take those details

00:27:32 of administration and you would work through all sorts of applications. Now, with the ceremonial

00:27:38 law. It talks about how, and this kind of relates to what you were talking about, this idea of maybe

00:27:42 general equity of the ceremonial law. It says there's two types of ceremonial law. There's the

00:27:48 ceremonial law that are types and shadows that point forward to Christ that are fulfilled in

00:27:52 Christ. And then there's the second category, which are the things that are kind of the moral

00:27:57 teachings that are symbolized. So I think that the not boiling the goat in the milk of his mother

00:28:04 is a perfect example that that's not a type and shadow fulfillment that's a moral typology which

00:28:10 i think is what you were talking about before there yep i think you're right um what do you

00:28:16 think i'm curious your view on um do you feel like there's any application for us today other

00:28:21 than just simply um a good gospel sermon uh with cities of refuge and the high priest when the high

00:28:28 priest dies then all of a sudden everybody in these cities of refuge is able to go free like

00:28:34 obviously, I mean, you know, I think of Thomas Watson and Matthew Henry and, you know, all the

00:28:38 Puritans, like, I mean, that text, you know, will obviously preach, you know, that we need a high

00:28:43 priest, you know, we're all in cities of refuge, you know, and hiding from, you know, the wrath of

00:28:47 God. But when a high priest dies, then all of a sudden the prisoners go free, our sin is atoned

00:28:51 for, and Christ is that high priest. And, you know, and so you can preach the gospel from it,

00:28:55 but is there any, is there any application of that element of a city of refuge that you could

00:29:00 think of for society today? So if I were, you know, if I'm trying to think about a principle

00:29:06 to draw out, it seems like the closest application that's been worked through in Western civilization

00:29:09 has been the principle of a statute of limitations. And it's interesting, as opposed to having sort

00:29:13 of this organic statute of limitations where you've got, here's the high priest, and when he

00:29:17 dies, it does that, right? And that could be, you know, that could be five years, it could be, you

00:29:20 know, 50 years, depending on how young the guy is, how long the Lord preserves his life. But so I

00:29:25 think statutes of limitations might be a way of taking that principle. But it's interesting because,

00:29:30 you know in western law historically we find in protestant countries is we have not had a statute

00:29:34 of limitations on things related to the death of a person and so many of the times when people

00:29:39 would need to flee to a city of refuge would be in reference to that so it seems like if there is

00:29:45 an application there it would be that we should not have people's when people cannot be convicted 0.73

00:29:50 through the due process of law some sort of reasonable time frame that we need to not now

00:29:55 just kind of have vexatious suits even for those things, but instead to allow certain things that

00:30:00 end, certain things to just end and to move on. And so I do think it's probable that that is the

00:30:06 case. I would need to study a little bit further, but I'm curious, what do you think about that

00:30:09 statute of limitations? Yeah, I think that's good. I like that. So if we continue to think through

00:30:16 kind of the general organization of the law, you know, we've talked about sort of this, this,

00:30:21 the organization itself, we've talked about definitions of the term law, we've talked about

00:30:25 the uses, and we might go into that a little bit further. But I do think before jumping into

00:30:30 further application, you know, you talked earlier about connecting back the case laws to the big

00:30:35 categories, like taking the, you know, the parapet around the roof or, you know, on a balcony and

00:30:42 connecting it to the sixth commandment. I think you're absolutely right there. But I think it's

00:30:45 also important to realize that we should connect all laws back to the two great commandments in

00:30:50 terms of the love of God and the love of neighbor, and ultimately to the purpose of life, which is

00:30:54 to glorify God. And so I think talking about this in terms of the doxological focus, in other words,

00:31:01 a focus on the doxa, the glory of God, that we need to interpret all law with the goal of glorifying

00:31:07 God in mind, and we need to view this, the laws, as being interpreted for the good of man, and we

00:31:13 have the good of man defined as ultimately knowing God, and then growing in the knowledge of God and

00:31:19 spreading the knowledge of God to others by acting in accordance with the knowledge of God, which is

00:31:22 what his law teaches us and so we're not just you know rank you know utilitarians that you know the

00:31:28 ends justify the means and we're also not just deontologists that say just obey the commandments

00:31:33 what we have to do is we have to read the commandments in terms of the goal and we have

00:31:38 to view how we're going to get the goal in terms of the law as an instruction set and that's how

00:31:43 it serves as a blueprint for dominion it tells us not only that you know x marks the spot where

00:31:48 we're going on the map, but it also tells us the path to take. And so one of the dangers that you

00:31:53 can run into, for example, with the Pharisees, the Pharisees, you know, Jesus rebukes them by saying

00:31:57 when they're trying to say, you know, works of mercy, like healing people on the Sabbath

00:32:01 are unlawful. He's saying, look, you're interpreting the law so that man is made for the Sabbath.

00:32:07 But in reality, the Sabbath is for man's good. And so we need to interpret the Sabbath law

00:32:13 as being a law that's given for the good of man. And so if you make the Sabbath destructive,

00:32:18 That would seem to be exactly what you were talking about before in terms of using the

00:32:21 mother's milk to cook the goat in, right?

00:32:24 And so that principle, that principle, that law, that ceremonial law that you mentioned

00:32:29 earlier seems to be another way of talking about that idea of we need a doxological focus

00:32:33 to think about the good of man and using things for that purpose of glorifying God and building

00:32:38 men up to be knowers of God.

00:32:40 And so I think having that perspective on the law really helps us to avoid a bunch of

00:32:44 misinterpretations and twistings that we would have if we just read it as a set of rules and

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00:34:17 Real quick, David, maybe it'd be interesting to mention one thing that I come across a lot

00:34:24 in pastoral ministry is, you know, people will look at Jesus, especially the Sermon on the Mount,

00:34:29 matthew 5 6 and 7 and you know where jesus says well you have heard it was said long ago you know

00:34:35 and then he he quotes uh scripture he's quoting moses but i tell you and i think a lot of people

00:34:41 use that as an example of christ somehow being pitted against the law the old testament law

00:34:47 whereas i i'm curious your take on this my take on it is um you know they they often marveled it

00:34:53 says they marveled for he taught as one who had authority and and one of the ways in which jesus

00:34:57 taught as one with authority is that um he wouldn't constantly be citing some other pharisee

00:35:03 or or former scribe so when the pharisees and scribes when they were teaching they would say

00:35:07 you know well gamaliel you know or whoever such and such has said and such and such but uh but

00:35:13 what jesus would do is he would he would actually go back to the original sources he would go to

00:35:17 moses moses said um and when he says but i tell you he's not disagreeing with moses he's disagreeing

00:35:23 in my assessment, with these modern, for his day, relatively modern scribes and Pharisees who were

00:35:29 improperly exegeting Moses. So Jesus is going back to the original source, the Word of God,

00:35:35 the Mosaic Law, and saying, so Moses said this, but I tell you, this is what Moses meant. This is

00:35:42 the actual interpretation of this law. So when Moses said, you can give a certificate of divorce,

00:35:50 you know, it wasn't meant to be for burning the toast. You've, these other guys, they say,

00:35:56 they interpret Moses to say that, you know, if a woman burns the toast and the man can send her

00:36:00 away so long as he gives her, you know, a write-up. But I tell you, it was not so since the

00:36:05 beginning. This is what Moses meant. God did this because your hearts are evil. Even then it was

00:36:09 meant to be sparing. And, you know, and so what do you think about that? Because I think a lot

00:36:14 of people, they'll say, well, even Jesus seems to be against the Old Testament law. He has a whole

00:36:21 sermon where he quotes the Old Testament law and then argues with it. But I tell you, but I tell 0.59

00:36:27 you. How would you explain that to the listeners? I'd say just so. I think you just laid it out

00:36:32 excellently. The issue is that Jesus is not making void the law of Moses. He was under it. Jesus was

00:36:41 under the old testament he was bound by the old testament laws he was bound by the civil law

00:36:45 the ceremonial law and the moral law and he perfectly fulfilled the law and that's why he

00:36:51 was able to provide for us you know provide a perfect offering of himself as a sacrifice for

00:36:57 sins to provide full satisfaction for all of our sins and a perfect righteousness right so that we

00:37:03 are counted as fulfilling the whole of the law because he perfectly kept the law his active

00:37:08 obedience not just his passive obedience but we actually he doesn't just bring us to a neutral

00:37:13 state or a state of moral innocence but there's a full presence of righteousness fulfilling all

00:37:17 righteousness amen absolutely and that's exactly what's imputed to us as we get that active right

00:37:23 that active obedience his perfect righteousness where he fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law

00:37:27 for us in our stead and in our place and so um he is exactly like you just said he's explaining

00:37:33 the original meaning. And I think so much of what we have to do as pastors is clear away all this

00:37:39 garbage that people are laying on top of what the Word of God says. And they're like, when Paul says

00:37:43 that women shouldn't speak in church, what he means is they should speak all the time, especially

00:37:46 from the pulpit. This nonsense where they've managed to take it and try to make it meaningless. 0.99

00:37:54 I mean, everyone read the text and you know that's not what Paul is saying. And, you know,

00:37:59 And so there's this, when people come in and try to take the Word of God and twist it to 0.99

00:38:04 their own destruction and to other people's destruction, the appropriate thing for the 0.99

00:38:07 teacher to do is to go back to the text and show people how stupid what is being said 1.00

00:38:13 really is. 0.99

00:38:13 And I think Jesus was a master of that.

00:38:15 Amen.

00:38:16 And I like what you, you know, just citing Paul, you know, in 1 Corinthians 14.

00:38:21 But that's one of the things that I've gotten to appreciate about you is the regular principle

00:38:26 of worship but for all of life that it's not just on the lord's day we you know certainly um can be

00:38:32 nothing less than the lord's day but um so much of what we're talking about when it's uh when we're

00:38:36 talking about adherence to god's law we're just we're talking about carefulness which is just

00:38:41 completely lost um i think in in our generation of uh christians is we're just careless um like

00:38:47 i remember you know coming into that conviction uh with first corinthians 14 for it is shameful

00:38:53 for a woman to speak in church. And, um, and we had, uh, at the time, uh, the church that I was

00:38:58 a part of had, um, a woman would, uh, give announcements. And I remember, you know, just

00:39:05 thinking, well, but, uh, you know, it's just announcements that there's no text, there's no

00:39:10 this, there's no, um, but then thinking, okay, but, but this is speaking, you know? And then I

00:39:15 started thinking, you know, beyond even that, I was like, okay, what, what about these announcements

00:39:19 just period like what what are are we supposed to be doing announcements you know on the lord's day

00:39:25 and and you and so and i started just you know um chopping away little by little by little you

00:39:30 know looking like thinking meticulously about from start to finish the lord's day worship gathering

00:39:35 and everything that we were doing in it and what was being said and uh what was not being said and

00:39:40 why you know uh having you know biblical reasoning for everything that we were doing and um and i

00:39:45 just realized, you know, that I had never thought about worship in that way before. I just, I felt

00:39:52 like, you know, I never would have, if you had asked me, I never would have said, you know,

00:39:56 that worship is trite, you know, or trivial, but I was at some level treating it that way.

00:40:02 I wouldn't have verbalized it like that. I didn't even realize the ways in which I was trivializing

00:40:08 worship, but I was, you know, and so, you know, so now, you know, when we begin our worship,

00:40:14 I don't know what your liturgy looks like, but we always open with, let us now begin

00:40:19 to worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

00:40:22 And then we have immediately scripture, you know, a call to assent, you know, something

00:40:27 that is calling us up to be seated in heavenly places, to go into the heavenly realm to worship.

00:40:34 And then, you know, and then pastoral prayers, a prayer of assent, and then there's a reading

00:40:38 of God's law, and then there's a corporate, you know, lead and response of confession

00:40:42 of sin and then assurance of christ pardon and then there's um you know we say uh you know no

00:40:48 longer confessing our sins but trusting in the finished work of jesus christ and usually you

00:40:52 know maybe a text like first john chapter one verse eight and nine if we confess our sins he's

00:40:56 faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and then

00:41:00 uh the minister will say something along the lines of so now christian uh no longer confessing our

00:41:05 sins let us now rather confess our faith christian what do you believe we believe in god the father

00:41:10 almighty creator that you know and now we're uh confessing our faith you know and then that leads

00:41:15 to preaching of the word and the word culminates into um our uh some worship through song and then

00:41:21 all culminates into uh participation um partaking of the lord's supper and and then there's you know

00:41:26 a benediction and the doxology and and you know everything is very very intentional and i'm not

00:41:31 saying that's the you know maybe the only way to do it uh but i'm just saying it's it's radically

00:41:36 different than the way that i thought even just five years ago about uh the lord's day that that

00:41:42 in looking at god's law looking at all these things um and starting with our lord's day worship

00:41:47 because it's the center everything is flowing out of of that but are we being meticulous are we being

00:41:53 careful carefulness is just the word it's not a fancy word it's not a ten dollar word like the

00:41:57 one you used earlier but but i think it's a good word you know that just thinking am i careful when

00:42:02 i think about um life when i think about worship when i think about what god has commanded and

00:42:08 thinking about the lord's day that way is was the starting point for me to start thinking about a

00:42:13 monday afternoon you know so yeah i think that's a beautiful point and i think your liturgy sounds

00:42:18 so much like i think it was calvin strasberg liturgy liturgy that that sounds very similar

00:42:22 to what he what he worked through and um we we apply the uh westminster directory for public

00:42:28 worship and so we're going to you're going to find that we basically do something that's you

00:42:33 know a simplified you know thing where we're going to have you know basically uh the the

00:42:38 beginning of the call to worship similarly and and going through using the word of god and singing

00:42:42 psalms and and uh you're going to find that we have the preaching of the word and stuff like that

00:42:45 so i think this this basic what you just brought out is i think so important and one of the reasons

00:42:50 the fourth commandment is so important and you go to chapter 21 of the westminster confession

00:42:54 In the London Baptist, it's chapter 22.

00:42:57 There's a chapter added about the gospel and its extent with preaching and stuff and the power of it.

00:43:02 It's after the 19th of the law in the London Baptist.

00:43:05 And so that one, that chapter, 21 in the Westminster and 22 in the London Baptist,

00:43:09 is about the worship of God, and it's about the Sabbath day.

00:43:14 And when you think about the fourth commandment applied,

00:43:17 it gives us the division of holy time as opposed to the rest of time.

00:43:20 And some people kind of find that to feel like weird or superstitious.

00:43:24 And it's like, well, all of life is worship.

00:43:25 Well, yes, it is in the sense that we're supposed to glorify God,

00:43:30 serve God with every moment, every element of our being,

00:43:34 all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, right?

00:43:36 Every second, we should redeem the time.

00:43:38 But there are some times that are set apart for communion with God and nothing else.

00:43:44 And so ordinary life, we can do all sorts of things that we're commanded to do,

00:43:49 but we're commanded to transport goods for trade, for example.

00:43:53 You don't do that in the Lord's service on the Lord's day.

00:43:56 So if you've got somebody hawking hot dogs in the Lord's service

00:44:01 and throwing them out and receiving somebody, throwing back some cash at them,

00:44:04 that would be disruptive of the Lord's day service,

00:44:06 though it might be totally appropriate at a sporting event.

00:44:09 And so it could be a good work at the sporting event.

00:44:12 And so this idea that there are things that are good works for ordinary life

00:44:15 and there are good works that are in worship,

00:44:18 there's a far more narrow set of things that you should do in private worship,

00:44:21 in household worship, and in Lord's Day public worship that are things that you do in those

00:44:28 settings, but you don't add other stuff in there. And so a lot of those things you could do in

00:44:33 ordinary life. For example, you can pray while you're driving a car, but you shouldn't drive a

00:44:37 car during public worship. And so this idea that there's holy time, I think God gives us that in

00:44:43 part because it's simplified. It's a simplified version of life. And we get to go in and focus on

00:44:48 those elements of worship to commune with him. And as we do that and we cultivate it,

00:44:54 it makes us more intentional about the rest of life. And so I think that that's designed by God

00:44:59 on purpose. And I think the idea that we have a more solemn attention to the public assembly

00:45:04 in the Lord's day helps us to then cultivate and to carefully prune other elements of life

00:45:09 because we start to do that in that space and under the leadership of leaders of the church.

00:45:14 And then that can be applied by heads of household in their homes and family worship

00:45:18 And then as you as an individual are worshiping God in private and secret in your prayer closet, as Jesus talks about, that idea that you're carefully keeping everything else out there.

00:45:29 And when you have this regulated principle of life and you go, does the law of God really say that this is something worth doing?

00:45:33 And really believing God that his word is sufficient to teach us every good work that we would need to do.

00:45:40 And I think that it makes you read the word less woodenly because you start to go, wait a second, I've got to look for principles and applications.

00:45:49 And when you actually try to justify activities as opposed to just making scripture a wax nose that you can move around,

00:45:56 you're actually trying to figure out what does this mean and is this a thing that I actually need in my life?

00:46:01 It makes you read the word in a far deeper and richer way.

00:46:05 That's good.

00:46:06 I guess I know that we're

00:46:09 I think we're drawing close to the end of our time

00:46:12 but I wanted to make sure to give one more

00:46:15 I think this is a valuable thing for people to

00:46:18 have in mind and that is

00:46:21 that there's a key motivation

00:46:25 that's given for us at the beginning of the law when we get the Ten Commandments

00:46:28 and I know also that I want to communicate

00:46:30 that I think that there are principles for applying the law

00:46:33 in detail but also maintaining peace

00:46:36 And what we find is, you know, the beginning of the law,

00:46:40 what you find is there's a list of what's called the triple obligation.

00:46:44 The triple obligation is the three reasons why you have to obey God.

00:46:47 And that is, first of all, he's your maker, so he owns you.

00:46:50 And secondly, if you're a part of the visible church, he's covenanted with you, so he owns you.

00:46:54 And then thirdly, if he has saved you and you're elect and Jesus paid for your sins, then he bought you.

00:47:00 And so he has a triple claim on those who are actually the elect.

00:47:04 and he has a single claim on everybody

00:47:06 and he has a double claim on those

00:47:08 who are in the church and are

00:47:10 unbelieving and they need to have 0.92

00:47:11 a greater obligation to repent

00:47:13 and to believe

00:47:15 and so I think that when we realize

00:47:18 that God has these claims on us

00:47:19 we go okay I need to carefully apply this

00:47:21 and be intentional in it

00:47:22 then furthermore when you start to apply the law

00:47:26 in detail you can find all of a sudden

00:47:28 you go wow I'm a pretty bad sinner

00:47:30 I'm sinning like all the time

00:47:31 and you start to apply it to the spirit and your own attitudes and all that.

00:47:35 You look at other people and you start to interpret people really badly.

00:47:39 And so conflict resolution becomes a thing as you're trying to apply the law.

00:47:43 How do you avoid being this person who's just like strangling people

00:47:46 with constantly trying to take all the applications of the law that you're realizing

00:47:49 and just trying to impose it on them, right?

00:47:51 And so you have this idea that Jesus teaches us,

00:47:53 you first get the log out of your own eyes.

00:47:55 You start with self-application first before you're going out

00:47:58 and trying to impose on everybody.

00:47:59 and when you do tell people that they need to apply the law your goal is to offer to help them

00:48:05 you're not just a pharisee laying burdens on everybody you're going how can i help to lift

00:48:10 you up help you carry the burden and make so we can go on together and you will find that that

00:48:15 makes it so that you are far more careful in thinking about which things you need to go talk

00:48:19 to people about because you're not only giving them an obligation but you're also putting some

00:48:23 burden on yourself that's a good way to put in it yeah if we were actually viewed ourselves as

00:48:28 morally obligated to help the person that we're correcting, um, to actually meet that correction,

00:48:33 we'd probably offer less correction. Right. And so, so this, the problem also is that sometimes

00:48:41 people disagree. And when you point out a rebuke, you know, there's only five ways that are okay

00:48:46 for a conflict to end. Um, and those five ways for conflict to end are, you know, you can choose

00:48:52 to interpret something that's ambiguous in a charitable way. You can overlook something and

00:48:56 not hold it against someone, right? But if you're not holding against them, that means you're not

00:49:01 like bitter about it. It means you're not talking about it behind their back. It means you're

00:49:05 actually going, okay, I'm choosing to overlook this for the sake of helping them with better

00:49:09 things. You can choose to hear them out, accept their just offense and go, you know what? I was

00:49:15 wrong. You were right. And that one is a hard pill to swallow sometimes. The other thing is

00:49:21 they can repent and you accept their repentance, in which case you got an obligation to actually

00:49:25 give them, which can also be hard for people sometimes. And the fifth way that things can go

00:49:30 is they can then raise it, they can escalate it to the next level. So you could take it to

00:49:35 Matthew 18, you know, not just a one-on-one conversation, but Matthew 18 lays out, you know,

00:49:39 go to somebody with witnesses, or ultimately they still won't repent in that context, you know,

00:49:42 taking it to a church court. And so when we realize that rebukes are things that we have

00:49:47 an obligation to end in one of those five ways, there's no just, hey, you're wrong, you won't

00:49:52 take it you're a bum you know there's none of that that's not an acceptable end that also makes

00:49:57 it so you go you have to count the cost before you initiate some sort of a conflict resolution 0.61

00:50:01 battle so i don't know you probably had a lot of experience in your pastoral work seeing people as

00:50:06 they come to know the law starting to get kind of rebuke other people i'm curious how you've

00:50:10 engaged on conflict resolution stuff and trying to get people to be peaceable and not just you

00:50:14 know laying the law on other people all the time right yeah conflict's tough um it's tough i you

00:50:20 You know, so one thing I, you know, when it comes to disagreements, we want unity, how good and pleasing it is when brothers dwell in unity with one another.

00:50:29 And so we're longing for unity.

00:50:31 I always, you know, tell people and tell myself, a lot of it is for my own life and how to try to do these things in a godly manner.

00:50:38 But that there are three different methods of seeking unity.

00:50:44 A lot of times when we think of unity and we think of, you know, disagreement, we're

00:50:48 thinking of moments where unity is desperately needed.

00:50:51 So it usually assumes that you're currently in a state of disagreement.

00:50:55 There's some kind of hostility that you're trying to overcome so that you can attain

00:50:58 unity.

00:50:59 So in the midst of disagreement, when we think of achieving unity, a lot of times people

00:51:04 think about charity.

00:51:06 So they think unity is achieved through charity.

00:51:08 Charity in the midst of disagreement will give us unity.

00:51:11 And I think that's one means that the Bible prescribes for attaining unity, but it's not

00:51:18 the only means, and I don't even think it's the first and foremost means. The first method that

00:51:23 I try to utilize for attaining unity is not charity, but persuasion. It's great to have

00:51:30 a sense of brotherly unity that stems from common charity toward one another in the midst of

00:51:39 disagreement. That's great. But what's better than that is to have brotherly unity and agreement,

00:51:47 to actually have the same view. So I think of like, so Ephesians 4, I remember that being so

00:51:52 pivotal for me a few years back as I was teaching through the book of Ephesians. It was the first

00:51:58 time I came to even realize that in Christian terms, that there's more than just one kind of

00:52:04 unity. That there's a unity, I would describe it like this, other theologians have used this

00:52:09 language. But there's unity of love, and then there's unity of the faith. Unity of love, you

00:52:15 could say there's a unity of common care. With unity of the faith, there's a unity of common

00:52:19 conviction. So unity of common care versus unity of common conviction, unity of love versus a

00:52:27 unity of the faith. And when you look at Ephesians 4, and you look at the end goal, right? So you're

00:52:32 training Christ as the head. He's the head of the church. And as the head of the church, one of the

00:52:37 things that he does, he nourishes and he fits his body for every good work. And one of the things

00:52:43 that he does is he graciously and lovially gives to his body, the church, good gifts. And one of

00:52:49 those good gifts is called leaders. And so he gives leaders, apostles and prophets and evangelists

00:52:56 and shepherds and teachers. And I view that as a fourfold, not a fivefold ministry. I think

00:53:00 apostles and prophets were, if you cross-reference that over to Ephesians 2.20, that's the foundation

00:53:05 that that work is done it's still working in the sense of the scripture uh the apostles and

00:53:10 prophets is the foundation um and you know but then we have evangelists and shepherd teachers

00:53:15 i view that as like a hyphen so shepherd teachers actually one role i view that as basically

00:53:19 essentially a pastor and then you have evangelists so you have apostles and prophets that's the

00:53:24 foundation now we have evangelists and pastors building on that foundation and they're doing

00:53:28 all this to train and equip the saints themselves to execute so the saints are executing the work

00:53:33 of ministry and building one another up in love so that the end goal when you think of okay what

00:53:38 are we trying to achieve uh no longer tossed to and fro by every wind and wave of doctrine no

00:53:43 longer the spiritual child uh childishness the spiritual immaturity but the full stature of of

00:53:50 of christ full manhood um and uh that we arrive at a um a unity of the knowledge it says a unity

00:53:58 of the knowledge of the son of god meaning that um it is not diversity is not our strength

00:54:04 diversity of thought you know diversity of theology is not our strength that's you know

00:54:09 so walking into a church and saying hey there are uh 17 different you know uh views of soteriology 0.99

00:54:15 represented in our church isn't that cool no that's stupid that's that is not cool you know 0.95

00:54:20 because uh we're not relativists so that all that means is that 16 um at minimum all 17 is possible 0.99

00:54:27 but 16 of these different views are wrong, and you're harboring wrong, unbiblical views about

00:54:33 who Christ is and how He saves. And so my point is, you know, when you think of unity, there's

00:54:38 not just unity of love and common care, but there's this unity of the knowledge of the Son of God. Do

00:54:44 we know the same Jesus? Do we have the same view from the Scripture of Jesus? And do we have a

00:54:50 unity not just of love, but a unity of faith, not just common conviction or a common care,

00:54:54 but common conviction. So all that being back to those three things, my first goal when it comes to

00:54:59 resolving conflict is not charity in the midst of disagreement, but persuasion so that we can

00:55:04 overcome disagreement, that we could actually agree. So the first thing is to try to persuade

00:55:09 someone by making good, sound, biblical arguments and making them in love and not being a jerk,

00:55:14 but really trying to persuade someone, brother, I think you should change your view.

00:55:19 before we talk about charity in the midst of holding differing views first um i think you

00:55:26 should change your view because i love you and you're wrong you know and if you're not wrong

00:55:31 then i'm wrong and i need to know how how am i wrong so i think first you know persuasion if you

00:55:37 can't do the persuasion then charity in the midst of disagreement um and then lastly if you can't

00:55:43 even have charity in the midst of disagreement then you know the third thing is blessing one

00:55:48 another, so long as it's not heresy, so long as it's not a primary doctrine, blessing one another

00:55:54 to labor in differing portions of the Lord's vineyard. I think of Paul and Barnabas. But

00:55:59 Paul and Barnabas, that was not a win. That was a loss that we have recorded in Scripture. So I view

00:56:04 that as your third. So number one, let's get on the same page and have common conviction. Number

00:56:09 two, if we can't have common conviction through persuasion, then charity, let's have common care.

00:56:13 And then third, if we can't even get along because this is just too big of a deal for whatever reason, then I think of R.C. Sproul.

00:56:23 I always use him and MacArthur as an example.

00:56:26 They had great unity, and the way that they achieved that great unity was they were on separate coasts, separated by 2,600 miles, in two separate denominations, two different churches on two different sides of the country.

00:56:39 And if it was any different, if they had been in the same church,

00:56:42 they would not have been golfing with each other. 0.54

00:56:44 They would have killed each other.

00:56:46 You know, so, you know what I mean?

00:56:47 So sometimes that's the way unity is achieved is, you know,

00:56:51 the Chesterton kind of, you know, good fences make good neighbors.

00:56:55 So those are my thoughts.

00:56:56 What do you think?

00:56:57 I think it's absolutely right.

00:56:58 And I think the charity, you know, the unity of charity, unity of love

00:57:02 is for the ability to come to agreement.

00:57:05 So we forget that the knowledge of God is the highest thing for us.

00:57:08 right so we're designed to be knowers of god we need to be unity in the truth and the truth of

00:57:12 god is more important than you or me right and so that being the case if we love each other we're

00:57:17 going to seek to spread that truth we're going to seek to be in submission to what is revealed in

00:57:20 the word and so i think that the church reaches different levels of maturity and you mentioned

00:57:24 i think ephesians 4 is a fantastic text to help to show look that the officers are given and i

00:57:30 think evangelists are not a continuing office it sounds like we might okay okay that's that's

00:57:34 Let's talk about that.

00:57:35 Yeah, that's great.

00:57:37 So the idea that the officers are for the purpose of building up the church

00:57:41 and so they can do the ministry,

00:57:43 this idea of working together in the bond of peace,

00:57:45 the covenantal arrangement of the covenant of grace

00:57:48 so that we can be working together,

00:57:50 seeking to maintain covenantal unity

00:57:52 so that we can come to greater agreement

00:57:54 so that we can see the church matured more towards the maturity of Christ.

00:57:58 And I think Philippians 3 does a great job of talking about,

00:58:00 look, there's not the maximal maturity that nobody reached yet,

00:58:03 including Paul at that time. And then there's the maturity that the church has reached. And those

00:58:07 who were mature were supposed to help to forget the things that had come before and to strive on

00:58:14 towards the mark. And so I think that we see in the history of the church, there's a process where

00:58:19 the church comes to greater and greater agreement and you get covenanted uniformity. That takes the

00:58:24 form of a confessional statement, a directory for government, a directory for worship. And you use

00:58:29 these things to try to gather around and work together with those shared external forms.

00:58:35 And so you have, you know, over and over again in the New Testament, you see we should be

00:58:38 in agreement about doctrine, and we should use the same rule to walk by.

00:58:42 And so I think that there's the objective reality of the Word of God as the rule for

00:58:46 both, and then there's how mature is the church at this time in history, and what have we

00:58:51 attained to, and we walk according to the rule that we've attained to at that point.

00:58:55 And then we make sure to discipline out people that are rejecting what's been attained to.

00:59:01 And so that work that the church today is more mature than the church was at the time of Nicaea, for example.

00:59:05 Partly because of the benefit of the blessing of the Nicaean orders that we have this ability to use the form of words.

00:59:11 If somebody says, oh, boy, usias, now you're going to go, what's wrong with you?

00:59:15 And so that idea that we can say the same substance as opposed to similar substance is a part of that.

00:59:21 So I think this work of coming to unity in the truth is the goal,

00:59:25 and charity and overlooking are so that we can focus on bigger things

00:59:29 or things that are more disruptive, right?

00:59:30 So we pick a point to fight on on the basis of what's the more basic truth

00:59:36 that needs to be dealt with because if you agree on more basic things

00:59:39 like the authority of the Word of God, you should be able to come to less basic things

00:59:42 like how do we define God out of the Scriptures.

00:59:44 And then furthermore, if something's causing disorder in the public life of the church,

00:59:49 you might deal with that.

00:59:50 So you're picking things that are for the order, and you're picking things that are, you know, you're trying to pick the points where you disagree more, basically, so that you can find the place to wrestle with each other for each other's good, as opposed to just the hot-button issues that are all over up there.

01:00:03 And that's kind of chaotic, and you don't resolve things.

01:00:06 But that idea of trying to pick fights in an orderly way so that you can come to greater unity is, I think, how we grow in unity in the church.

01:00:13 And I think that's, you talk about diversity not being our strength.

01:00:16 Unity is our strength.

01:00:16 And that's how the church, if it has a unified voice, the covenant of uniformity, it can see dramatic political reordering, and you can see society being governed by the conscience that is the church.

01:00:29 And so that unity of speech is so important.

01:00:31 So coming to unity allows us to speak with one voice and have one rule to behave by.

01:00:36 And so we talked about how the law of God is the tool or the instruction manual for dominion.

01:00:41 And so that being the case, we need to realize that it teaches us how to live a life where we govern ourselves well.

01:00:47 It teaches us how to order our homes so that we can be masters of the home, good husbands and good fathers.

01:00:53 And also it teaches us how to be good churchmen to see doctrine, worship and government in good order.

01:00:58 And then it teaches us in the state how to have the proper purposes of protecting those builders.

01:01:03 Right. The state is the sword. And we talked earlier on that the state is the sword.

01:01:07 It's a protector of those who are doing the building.

01:01:10 And so if we realize those things, we see that the law of God teaches us how to exercise power in all four covenant institutions.

01:01:17 And so I'm really excited for getting to talk through the next time.

01:01:21 I know we're planning to talk about men are not just husbands and fathers, but they're masters of the estate.

01:01:25 And so I'm looking forward to talking to that.

01:01:26 I keep thinking of Tom Baumde-Dill.

01:01:29 You know, Tom is master.

01:01:31 I feel like Tolkien had some good stuff on and what it looked like to be a jolly master.

01:01:38 you know that he was not weak by any any stretch but he also wasn't uh cold or mean spirited that

01:01:46 he was jolly joyful but i very clearly master of his domain absolutely yeah that'd be great

01:01:53 yeah one of those things that he did so well was to display that idea of the singing man

01:01:57 right and so i would encourage people to think about singing is psalm 128 especially around

01:02:01 the table tonight think about trying to recruit your wife and kids and singing that you might

01:02:04 have a good time yeah that's great all right well uh mr reese thank you so much this has been a

01:02:09 pleasure and i'm excited to continue this series together talking about uh christian power and

01:02:15 godly dominion looking at the law of god as our roadmap as the key uh to succeeding in the world

01:02:21 that god has made we have no choice but to live in god's world and um it makes no sense to try

01:02:26 to live in god's world in a way that god did not design if we want things to go well for us

01:02:30 uh then you follow the master you follow his way you do it his way and uh and we're blessed and

01:02:36 it's not begrudging it's not um it's not just constraint god's not taking our fun he's saying

01:02:42 uh no you you want to soar you want to uh you want to grow you want to thrive this is the ticket this

01:02:48 is how you do it so i'm excited to continue talking about it with you thank you thanks for

01:02:53 having me on lord bless you all right you too

01:03:00 We'll be right back.

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The NXR Podcast - January 15, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - A Primer on Theonomy with David Reece

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