The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - Abolitionism & Donald Trump with Bradley Pierce

00:00:00.000 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:00:04.380 Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I was privileged to welcome to the show Bradley

00:00:09.540 Pierce. Bradley Pierce, he's a local guy here in our great state of Texas, Central Texas, around

00:00:17.100 the capital area outside of Austin, praise God. But he is actively involved as a lawyer in lobbying

00:00:26.920 and leading abolitionist organizations to see the full abolishing of abortion in the state of Texas

00:00:34.660 and Lord willing in these United States as a whole at the federal level. And so I've had him come on

00:00:40.380 the show to talk about a brand new project that he's been involved with in abolishing abortion

00:00:47.440 that all of you need to be aware of. And then also to have a little bit of brotherly debate

00:00:53.480 on what, you know, how is the abolitionist position, how is that consistently applied

00:01:00.800 when it comes particularly to the issue of voting in a general presidential national election?

00:01:08.820 Can an abolitionist, not just a Christian, but an abolitionist vote for someone who is not pro-life,

00:01:14.880 namely Donald J. Trump? All right, tune in now.

00:01:19.140 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:29.320 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:01:32.800 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and today I'm privileged to welcome onto the show

00:01:37.460 Bradley Pierce. Bradley, thanks for coming on.

00:01:40.620 Hey, thanks for having me, Joel. It's good to be here.

00:01:42.100 All right, so you have a brand new project in the works. It's a docu-series,

00:01:48.340 on the cause of abolishing abortion, exposing some of the pro-life Inc. lies that essentially

00:01:57.480 want to say, hey, now that Roe's been overturned, we have half of the country that doesn't do

00:02:04.100 abortion anymore. Is that true? Can you tell us a little bit about this project?

00:02:08.040 Well, it's true that I'm working on that there is a project. It's not true that half the country

00:02:12.740 is abortion free so the project is it's actually abortionfree.com it's a six-part docuseries

00:02:20.240 that actually the last episode is dropping uh within hours of us recording this and and people

00:02:28.300 can can go watch that uh at abortionfree.com we go to the youtube channel for the foundation to

00:02:33.100 abolish abortion and it's it's looking at that you know there's a lot of pro-life organizations

00:02:37.920 that are saying, hey, Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade.

00:02:41.720 That's what we were trying to do for 49 years.

00:02:44.440 And now these states that have these trigger laws in place

00:02:47.940 that went into effect immediately upon Dobbs overturning Roe,

00:02:52.200 now, hey, all the clinics are out of the states.

00:02:54.380 And so now those states, many pro-life organizations,

00:02:56.580 are saying that they're abortion-free.

00:02:59.520 So this docuseries follows Megan Gibson as she goes

00:03:04.100 and interviews people on the pro-life side, on the abolition side, to figure out, are these states

00:03:10.260 really abortion-free, you know, and what's really going on here? So tell the listener what's actually

00:03:16.500 going on, because we've heard it said by several individuals, and some of them are, you know,

00:03:23.380 intentionally deceitful and lying and may not even be Christians. And then there are others who,

00:03:29.160 you know, we would say, no, this is a Christian brother in Christ who apparently is ignorant

00:03:34.080 on this particular topic, but I have heard from a variety of voices, statements such as,

00:03:39.600 you know, there's only five children that were killed, you know, in the womb last year in a

00:03:44.940 state like Idaho or Oklahoma. How is that not true? Explain what's really going on.

00:03:52.860 Yeah, I wish that were true. And I think we all want to believe that it's true,

00:03:56.720 that that's where abortion numbers are. But it's kind of like the Democrats,

00:04:00.000 When they claim now that crime has gone down, well, it's because they stopped prosecuting criminals and they stopped counting the number of crimes that are actually occurring.

00:04:10.980 A lot of the same thing is really what's happening here, that, yes, the numbers that are reported by the Departments of Health in 14 states around the country show that abortion numbers are down in those states to close to zero.

00:04:27.740 But the issue is that that's the abortions that were required to be reported.

00:04:33.420 And that was the abortions performed by Planned Parenthood, by abortion clinics, that now those abortions are gone.

00:04:41.020 And so the only abortions that are happening that, you know, they see like five in a state is those that are happening,

00:04:47.740 you know, kind of life of the mother situations at hospitals, which, you know, aren't even actually abortions.

00:04:53.540 No one really, you know, no one wants to kill that baby.

00:04:56.020 It's just sometimes it's a result of certain things.

00:04:59.340 So those numbers are not actually reflecting what's happening

00:05:03.240 because the abortions are still happening.

00:05:06.680 And we have, just to use Texas as an example,

00:05:09.920 before the heartbeat bill, before Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade,

00:05:13.940 we had around 55,000 abortions a year happening in Texas.

00:05:18.980 And today the latest numbers that we have seen show

00:05:22.500 that there are 35,000 babies that are being taken out of state by their mothers, by Texas women

00:05:29.880 taking Texas babies out of the state and having them aborted in other states. And then here on

00:05:35.940 Texas soil, we see about 20,600 abortions are happening per year right here on Texas soil

00:05:45.380 by women ordering the abortion pills and then taking them here. They get delivered to their 0.86

00:05:50.760 mailbox and then they just take them right here. Um, and that's happening right here in Texas.

00:05:54.580 So that's, that number is basically 55,000. It's basically what it was before, uh, once you put

00:06:01.240 together 35 out of state, 20 in state, we're kind of right back where we were, except that now

00:06:07.200 there's a whole lot of, you know, well-meaning good pro-life people, pro-life voters here in

00:06:12.280 Texas that think that Texas is abortion free. And, and this isn't just Texas, it's, you know,

00:06:17.140 Texas, Oklahoma, Idaho, Mississippi, you know, there's 14 of these states that way where the

00:06:23.080 average pro-life person thinks that the job is done. We can declare a victor. We can go home.

00:06:28.420 We can just work on those, you know, God forsaken blue states now, but at least right here in my

00:06:33.020 state, you know, we're abortion free. So tell us about, uh, what was it? Right to life, Louisiana.

00:06:39.940 Tell us, uh, a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with what happened

00:06:43.480 when abolitionists were trying to put forward

00:06:46.580 equal weights, equal measures, a just bill.

00:06:50.600 It wasn't...

00:06:51.480 A lot of times, you know this, 0.98

00:06:52.900 but not every Christian does.

00:06:55.500 They think that the only opponent

00:06:57.720 that the Christian is facing

00:06:59.740 is the blue-haired Kamala voting progressive. 0.59

00:07:04.980 They don't realize that the pro-life industry needs, 1.00

00:07:09.820 it actually needs abortion to continue.

00:07:11.700 yeah and uh you can watch an episode four called killing bills of the docuseries um that the pro-life

00:07:19.840 movement is not just you know like accepting of abolition or accepting of equal protection like

00:07:26.240 hey we don't support that but you know you guys do you and and we'll do us and we'll all you know

00:07:31.500 we're all fighting for abortion against abortion right um no but they're actually actively opposing

00:07:37.900 bills that would provide equal protection.

00:07:40.200 And all equal protection is, is, you know, it doesn't really create new laws.

00:07:43.880 There are already laws on the books that protect people from being murdered, right?

00:07:47.980 We already have homicide laws on the books, you know, for thousands of years of, you know,

00:07:52.580 civilization here.

00:07:54.020 And so all equal protection is, it just says, hey, those laws that prohibit committing

00:07:59.060 homicide, those laws that apply to protect born people, they should protect unborn people,

00:08:06.260 pre-born people, too.

00:08:07.900 In the exact same way, equal protection.

00:08:10.400 It's just like the Supreme Court above the Supreme Court.

00:08:12.520 It says equal justice under law.

00:08:14.840 That's really all we're talking about, is that the same laws that protect you and me also protect pre-born children.

00:08:23.260 And so what ended up happening in Louisiana, that was one of the states, one of many states, where pro-life organizations have opposed equal protection.

00:08:32.240 There we have a bill that passed through a committee, pro-life politicians voting for that bill.

00:08:37.900 And then whenever it was about to get voted on on the House floor in Louisiana,

00:08:42.480 77 pro-life organizations came out with a letter opposing equal protection saying that, 0.63

00:08:49.380 oh, well, that criminalizes women.

00:08:51.260 Well, no, no, it just makes it criminal for women to abort their children, 1.00

00:08:55.920 just like it should be for everyone. 1.00

00:08:58.860 And all our bill does is it makes it where it is illegal for everyone. 1.00

00:09:02.520 It doesn't single out women. 1.00

00:09:04.100 But they came out and they opposed that bill.

00:09:06.040 and although we had the votes we had we had you know counted heads brian gunter on the ground

00:09:11.780 there had you know had talked to every office and we had the votes to get the bill passed to the

00:09:16.440 house because of the pro-life movement coming out against it it just killed it so what what are the

00:09:23.340 main tenets when you say i am an abolitionist right what what makes someone an abolitionist

00:09:30.820 What are the primary tenets, the core convictions or elements that make up that abolitionist position?

00:09:37.220 Yeah, well, there are many that talk about like the five tenets of abolition.

00:09:41.300 You have a lot of good folks talk about that.

00:09:43.600 I kind of sum it up really in three different, three things that kind of sum up those.

00:09:49.880 And that is, first of all, it's approaching this by following the higher law, right?

00:09:56.080 What is the highest law?

00:09:58.520 Obviously, God's law is the highest law.

00:10:00.120 And how do we approach this? We approach it as Christians. We're not approaching this leaving our Bibles at home, checking our sword at the gates. No, we bring our sword into the gates and we say, thus says the Lord, this is what he says to do, this is what we should do.

00:10:19.660 God has spoken to this issue as much as any other issue in civil government, the issue of protecting innocent life by bearing the sword and not in vain.

00:10:30.940 And so we shouldn't be afraid to leave our Bibles at home when we talk about that and to build upon the rock of what God has said.

00:10:38.580 So that's the first aspect of what I believe it means to be an abolitionist is we start with what God says.

00:10:47.700 We build on the rock.

00:10:49.080 He's our foundation.

00:10:50.340 We don't, we don't, we're not ashamed of the gospel.

00:10:53.300 We use it.

00:10:54.700 And in fact, that's what it's all about, right?

00:10:57.200 It's all about proclaiming Christ as Lord over every area of life, including civil government,

00:11:05.540 including the protection of our neighbors.

00:11:07.560 And that's how we love our neighbors.

00:11:09.360 So to me, that's the first aspect is, you know, summing it up by saying Christ is Lord over this area like every other.

00:11:17.700 You know, secondly, I would say it's, okay, well, then what does Christ say?

00:11:22.060 What does God then say?

00:11:23.800 He says, love your neighbor as yourself.

00:11:26.980 He says, do justice.

00:11:28.900 He says, do justice to the fatherless.

00:11:31.020 But he gets even more specific than that.

00:11:33.480 He says, you should not have unequal weights and measures.

00:11:37.300 He says, you know, he who condemns the innocent and acquits the guilty is an abomination to God.

00:11:43.300 And he says, you know, even in Exodus, we see an example where we have two men struggling, and they harm a woman who is pregnant.

00:11:53.780 The baby comes out, and it says, if there's harm, then what is the remedy?

00:12:00.620 Well, we see that that's where we get lex talionis, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.

00:12:05.460 Well, wait, is it harm to the mother, or is it harm to the baby?

00:12:08.480 as to what, it doesn't specify because it's the same. Whether the harm is done to the mother or

00:12:16.000 the harm is done to the child, it's still eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, because both

00:12:21.000 of their lives are equally valuable, even though that baby's life was in the womb just a few

00:12:27.840 moments before. So we see equal justice, equal value there. And then we see God saying that we're

00:12:36.080 not to show partiality in judgment he says this repeatedly over and over and over you are not to

00:12:42.160 show partiality in judgment and the hebrew there is talking about we're not to regard faces we're

00:12:47.880 not to say okay um all right we're here to you know we're here to decide this case but before

00:12:54.260 we decide what's justice here what who's who's the defendant oh is it the mom or is it the dad

00:13:00.040 oh wait who's the victim is it the is it was this person born or are they not yet born right when we

00:13:07.120 do that we're showing partiality and god says he hates that he forbids that and so that's why kind

00:13:14.060 of the second aspect of what i think what i describe as abolitionist is we support equal

00:13:18.900 protection equal justice because that's what god commands and then the third one that i would sum up

00:13:25.000 is to say, and we oppose bills, first of all, of partiality, bills that God forbids,

00:13:34.600 bills of partiality, we oppose those. And we also oppose legislation that is merely a substitute

00:13:42.880 for what God says to do. It's merely a way to keep from doing what God says to do,

00:13:50.060 and ends up giving cover to people who don't want to abolish abortion

00:13:55.160 and they don't want to do what God says.

00:14:00.920 And so they end up submitting these bills that are mere substitutes

00:14:04.160 and end up delaying abolition and giving cover to people

00:14:07.580 and making people think that we're abortion-free.

00:14:11.840 And that's the issue that we have here in Texas.

00:14:14.160 They passed this trigger bill, and now we have a huge uphill battle

00:14:19.140 to educate people because they've been defrauded by this false sense of victory. And so that's the

00:14:26.500 kind of bills that we oppose that just regulate abortion instead of actually abolishing it as

00:14:31.760 God's told us to. So can I give you my thoughts of the abolitionist position that I hold? And

00:14:38.100 if I'm off anywhere, I'd love to hear it. So can I run my thoughts by you and then you tell me

00:14:44.260 where you would, uh, agree or disagree. Sounds great. Okay. So, um, the way I've thought about

00:14:52.160 it is, um, one, uh, equal protection and the way that I vocalize that to our listeners. And then

00:14:59.520 as a local pastor to parishioners, as I say, um, uh, equal protection means that you, you have to,

00:15:05.220 it's basically, you know, uh, three points. Uh, it's a, um, direct correlation, three lines of

00:15:11.260 logic that are all cohering with one another. And so if we believe that the unborn child

00:15:17.120 has equal dignity, then they must be equally protected. And if they're going to be equally

00:15:25.680 protected, that protection would be equal penalties for the one who threatens or destroys

00:15:33.380 that life. And so when we say that the unborn child is an image bearer of the living God,

00:15:40.020 that they are a human being. There's no way to articulate that truthfully without in some way

00:15:47.540 minimizing their dignity, their innate value and worth, if we provide one set of protections

00:15:56.240 for those who have already been born, and then a lesser set of protections for those who are

00:16:01.300 unborn. If we did that with any other class of people, there would be outrage. If we said, 0.94

00:16:07.180 you know what, you need to love all of your neighbors as yourself, except for one particular

00:16:13.360 class of neighbors. And when it comes to your black neighbor, there's certain things that you 0.98

00:16:19.260 can do to him that you can't do to your white neighbor. But then you've essentially, it's like 0.85

00:16:24.600 you've just declared open season hunting a particular class of people. And there's no way

00:16:32.180 of, of holding that position without saying that that particular class of people, um, is a lower

00:16:37.960 class of, they're not really people. They're partially people, kind of people, you know,

00:16:42.520 but they're not really, they're not full image bearers of the living God with full dignity. And

00:16:47.600 so, um, so to me, that's, that's the line of, uh, of logic is just kind of three points. Uh,

00:16:53.200 if I truly believe the Christian position, which is from conception, conception being a fertilization,

00:17:00.060 not implantation, but from the moment of fertilization, when a human being is conceived,

00:17:05.920 it is a full human being. So when Jesus was in the womb, he wasn't fully God and part man,

00:17:12.620 but from his conception, he was fully God and fully man. And so if I believe that,

00:17:19.720 then there's full dignity for the unborn. And in order to put my money where my mouth is,

00:17:24.560 If I really say that the unborn is fully dignified as a human being, then I can't say, hey, human beings have a certain set of protections because we value human beings, except for the unborn. 0.81

00:17:38.020 It's open season, hunting season, for this particular class. 0.54

00:17:42.460 So equal dignity means equal protection, and the way that we ensure equal protection is equal penalties.

00:17:50.000 If somebody took a two-year-old child into a dark alley and killed them in cold blood, whatever the full weight of the law would do to that criminal, those are the same sanctions, the same penalties that would befall not only the mother,

00:18:08.200 but if there's a father or grandparent or anybody else who's involved in that decision that coercion

00:18:13.760 and of course also the abortion doctor who would be um who is a a certified hitman he is a serial

00:18:22.400 killer um but but it differs the the abolitionist position it differs from the pro-life position

00:18:28.020 that wants to um that really only wants to go after the abortion doctor and even with him

00:18:33.440 we want a firm slap on the wrist, you know, and we're going to give you a fine. And then it would 1.00

00:18:40.020 say of everyone else involved in that decision that there's absolutely no penalty at all. So

00:18:45.120 equal dignity, equal protection, equal penalties, that includes the mother, and for that matter,

00:18:51.880 the father, anybody else who's involved in coercing that mother to make that decision.

00:18:56.780 So that's where I would start. And then second, I would say in, you know, that last point leads

00:19:01.140 into the next point, which is that the second victim narrative is a lie, a satanic lie from

00:19:08.240 the pit of hell, that women, who also, in the same way that the unborn child has full dignity as a

00:19:14.920 human being, so do women. Women are co-heirs in grace. Men and women are created by God differently 1.00

00:19:21.940 and tasked with different roles, but women are not a lesser class than men, and therefore they

00:19:29.760 should be treated with dignity. And part of that dignity includes not treating women as though they

00:19:36.900 are mentally disabled. But that is how Christians treat women on this issue. They are feminists 1.00

00:19:44.680 all day long. But then when it comes to this issue, they say, well, women, they don't have 1.00

00:19:50.240 actual moral culpability, like a real human being, like a man. You can't possibly assume that 0.94

00:19:56.600 a woman would be an adult human being with rationale and logic. I mean, it's so funny

00:20:04.920 that the biggest flaming feminist in the world all of a sudden become the most chauvinistic, 1.00

00:20:10.360 misogynist people that make me look like a liberal. And I'm patriarchal when it comes to 0.98

00:20:17.220 this issue. All of a sudden, the woman is incapable of making an immoral, reprehensible 1.00

00:20:24.440 decision because she doesn't have cognitive faculties and she doesn't have morality and 0.97

00:20:31.120 she doesn't have ethics and she doesn't, you know, and so I would say that for me is the second. So

00:20:35.220 first that the equal protection, then second, the, you know, tenant in the way that I describe this

00:20:39.520 is that the second, the second victim narrative that, oh, a baby is a victim and that victim

00:20:45.180 died, but there's also the victim of the woman. And how was she victimized? Well, she was victimized

00:20:49.980 by getting to murder her child with impunity?

00:20:55.540 Like, no, no, no.

00:20:59.740 She's not being victimized at all.

00:21:01.880 In fact, if there's any victimization,

00:21:04.340 it's robbing her of the opportunity

00:21:06.940 for the free grace and forgiveness

00:21:09.080 that comes through Christ Jesus,

00:21:10.960 which only that diamond brilliance of the gospel

00:21:17.260 and the free grace and forgiveness of sins

00:21:19.160 is only visible, it only shines so brilliantly on the backdrop of the law of God that actually

00:21:27.140 addresses sin. The woman, you can't be forgiven of a sin that you never committed, you know, 0.99

00:21:36.240 and you're not going to pursue forgiveness in Christ Jesus of a sin that you have committed 0.88

00:21:41.680 if you've convinced yourself that you've done no wrong. And so the second victim narrative

00:21:47.340 hurts babies because women get to murder them with impunity, but it also hurts women. It robs 0.98

00:21:54.780 babies of physical life and robs women of eternal life. And then the last thing that I would say is 0.79

00:22:01.520 that when it comes to bills, legislation, you must have equal weights and measures. You cannot

00:22:08.680 present unjust bills like what you said. You can't present a bill that says you can murder on

00:22:13.400 Wednesday, but not on Thursday. So these need to be bills that not just merely heartbeat bills,

00:22:19.760 but bills that actually, that you could hold your bill, not just in a court of law, a human court

00:22:25.280 here on earth, but you could hold that bill in a court of heaven, stand before God and not be

00:22:31.720 ashamed. That is a bill that pleases the Lord based off of his immutable standards of righteousness.

00:22:37.940 And then with that, I would draw a hard line on the legislation, and then I would also say in terms of legislators, elected officials, that in local elections especially, but I would probably even apply this to federal elections, but certainly local elections, and then whether it be local or federal, especially in the primaries,

00:23:00.540 that as Christians, we can only present legislation bills that are just, and we can also only present

00:23:07.340 candidates, legislators, elected officials in primaries, which that's how our system works.

00:23:13.180 That's where we get to bring someone to the table and say, this man we believe is a good man fit for

00:23:18.400 the office, that we have to, in the same way the bills have to meet God's standards for righteousness

00:23:23.180 on the issue of life that we find in scripture, so too the man that we present when it comes to

00:23:29.200 candidates for elected officials, he too must meet the standards that we find in Scripture.

00:23:34.320 And I think there's multiple places, but one of the premier places in Scripture would be

00:23:38.640 Exodus chapter 18, that he must hate bribes, that he has to be someone who is ethical,

00:23:45.180 that cares for the oppressed, that cares for life, a defender of justice, a defender of life.

00:23:52.240 And so that, to me, that's, when I think of abolition, that's what the position that I've

00:23:57.760 held for by God's grace for a while now and what I've articulated to others. And so I'm curious,

00:24:04.160 and then we can go beyond this in just a moment and talk about a general election

00:24:09.560 and especially a general presidential election as we're coming up upon shortly here with

00:24:16.120 America. But first, before we get there, because I think that's where we will probably differ,

00:24:21.900 but everything I've said thus far, I'm curious if there's anything along the way as we're

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00:27:04.540 maintain our capacity to do things here.

00:27:07.500 Rees Fund, Christian Capital, boldly deployed.

00:27:12.780 No, I think I think that all sounds that's that's basically just a reiteration of what I was just saying as well and what abolitionists stand for.

00:27:20.360 And then the you know, I think you mentioned, yeah, the the second victim narrative in episode five of the docuseries.

00:27:29.200 the title of the episode is infantilizing women because that's what the second victim narrative 0.99

00:27:36.940 does is it treats women as if they are too weak and too stupid to know what they're doing so we 1.00

00:27:43.500 have to give all women absolute immunity when it comes to the murder of their own children 0.99

00:27:49.700 and and that's and that term infantilizing women it's not it does it's actually illegal that's

00:27:56.140 actually a legal term because we we treat someone legally someone who is not yet old enough to be

00:28:02.920 responsible for their own actions we call them legally or in the common law we call them their 0.93

00:28:08.360 infants they are legally infants um and that's what we've basically done with women when it 0.88

00:28:15.060 comes to abortion we've legally we now call them infants right they don't really know what they're 1.00

00:28:21.300 doing. And so we treat them, we treat them that way by giving them complete immunity, just like

00:28:27.540 you would, you know, if a two-year-old did something. Well, like, well, no, they didn't

00:28:32.200 know what they're doing. Well, that's how we're treating women as well. And so a lot of what you 1.00

00:28:36.320 just said is right there in that episode. You know, so I like what you said there. And then

00:28:42.960 And on the dignity point, it reminded me of here in Texas, we actually, back before slavery was abolished here, we actually had in our penal code, we actually had an entire part of our penal code that was, it said, this is the penal code for slaves and free persons of color is what it said.

00:29:11.360 And then it started off by saying slaves and free persons of color are persons.

00:29:15.940 I'll send it to you later.

00:29:16.940 It's very interesting.

00:29:18.180 It says that they are persons, but because of their peculiar position in society, they get a different system of justice. 0.73

00:29:26.220 So, for example, a slave or free person of color, as it said, could get branded with the letter C on their face for committing certain crimes. 0.55

00:29:35.800 but a a free white person could not get branded for crimes right there was

00:29:42.480 different punishments but that was you could not brand on the face a free white person um so

00:29:48.680 anyways but so it's kind of one of those things like even though the law said well yes slaves and

00:29:54.680 free persons of color are are persons it didn't treat them that way right just like you were

00:30:01.240 saying, you know, if, if we treated other, other classes of people, the way that we treat pre-born

00:30:07.860 children, the way the pro-life movement even treats pre-born children, right, people would

00:30:12.300 be up in arms. And, and, and, and we should be, Christians should be up in arms, you know,

00:30:18.980 lawfully, peacefully. But we should be calling our civil officials to be up in arms, you know,

00:30:25.020 for the protection of innocent lives. So I really appreciate the way you described that.

00:30:28.880 Thanks, Bradley. Speaking of up in arms, I know you already specified, you gave the disclaimer

00:30:35.380 peacefully and lawfully, but to go there just for a moment, to go there carefully, being up in

00:30:41.040 literal arms, what is your position on the Civil War? Do you think that that was a just war here

00:30:47.800 in America? Well, I mean, it's complicated. I am a Texan, and I do believe that, and I'm also,

00:30:56.460 I believe that the Constitution was like a contract, right?

00:31:05.120 And there's nothing that prohibits leaving the contract, and there's nothing that if you believe the other party is breaching it, then you're free to leave the contract as well.

00:31:17.040 So I believe the states do have a right to secede, and I think that Texas and the South did have a right to secede.

00:31:26.460 I think their reasons for doing so, as stated in many of their secession proclamations, there were other reasons, but certainly number one was the issue of slavery.

00:31:37.560 I think their reason for doing so, their number one reason was a bad reason. 0.86

00:31:43.300 I think that they were wrong in protecting the chattel slavery that was going on and the generational slavery that was going on. 0.55

00:31:53.720 um you know so i don't think that they should have seceded over that issue but did they have 0.94

00:32:00.200 a right to do so yes i do believe that they did and the north did not have the right i believe to

00:32:06.360 to force them by arms back into the union so that's that's my position again i don't think that

00:32:15.060 either side was was necessarily morally in the right but i think from a legal perspective i think

00:32:21.620 that the states did have a right to secede. But that said, I do think that the Civil War was a

00:32:30.640 judgment upon our country because of our refusal to abolish slavery. What do you think? What do

00:32:38.600 you think about that? Okay. Well, so no, I don't think it was a just war. I'm absolutely willing

00:32:47.940 to say what you said there at the end. I agree with much of what you said, that states absolutely

00:32:53.400 had the right to succeed. And I think they still do for that matter. You and I are both in Texas

00:32:58.340 and do it, Lord. Let's succeed. One day, still pray and still hope it. So yes, I agree with

00:33:09.120 states' rights and that they were being thwarted by Abraham Lincoln. It's funny, 0.82

00:33:15.580 liberals recently came out and said, Abraham Lincoln, turns out, evidence has surfaced that

00:33:21.800 he may have been gay. And I was like, one of the few times me and liberals agree, here I am,

00:33:28.000 I've always thought Lincoln was gay, never liked him. So we're on the same team. All of a sudden, 0.65

00:33:33.460 progressives, they progress so far that every now and then they come full circle and they match up

00:33:39.620 some of their views with some of the conservatives. So I've never been a fan of Abraham Lincoln. And

00:33:44.400 my position in a nutshell is just that um if it was just to to go to war over it um so that none

00:33:51.840 of this is you know being a slavery apologist but what we're talking about is 600 you know they say

00:33:58.960 600 to 750 000 lives sons fathers bleeding out and dying um because i think that the civil war

00:34:07.440 was a judgment for slavery but i also think that a lot of what we're experiencing now as a country

00:34:12.400 with a neo you know marxism that focuses not so much on class warfare and economics but on you

00:34:19.280 know race racism i think a lot of what we're experiencing now actually is a judgment for the

00:34:24.960 civil war for trying to abolish abortion unjustly um and so i i think that logically to be consistent

00:34:32.880 if you say that that issue of slavery merited the lives of 650, 700,000 of our sons and fathers to

00:34:43.720 die, and that the Civil War really was just, because we had to do it now. It has to be now.

00:34:50.000 It doesn't matter how many die. It doesn't matter if we go to war. It doesn't matter that the North

00:34:53.480 arguably could have actually just bought all the slaves in the South, and the money that they spent

00:34:58.220 on the war, they could have just freed all the slaves by buying them and purchasing them from

00:35:01.840 all these these you know plantations of people in the south doesn't matter um all all that matters

00:35:06.940 is uh they slavery's got to end and it's got to end now and so we'll go to war and uh and we'll 0.97

00:35:12.500 bleed out and die and kill our sons and fathers if you believe that that it was just then i just 0.99

00:35:17.980 don't see how as a christian uh you're not taking up arms and storming the white house today over 0.99

00:35:22.720 abortion abortion i mean we're talking 70 million in half of a century baby slaughtered and that's

00:35:29.540 just what we have numbers of. It's probably far higher than that. But 70 million murders

00:35:34.920 compared to slavery, it's not even just that abortion is, oh, abortion might be just as bad

00:35:41.380 as slavery. No, abortion is exponentially worse, exponentially worse. And so I feel like for any

00:35:47.500 Christian who says, yeah, the Civil War, that's whatever it takes, no matter the cost, it's got 0.52

00:35:56.440 to end. We will not wait a month. We will not wait a year. We will not wait two years.

00:36:00.900 Got to do it today. Grab your rifle, get it done. And the Civil War was precisely that. It was

00:36:08.720 Abraham Lincoln doing the just thing. If that's your position, then you got to go to war today

00:36:15.040 over abortion to be consistent. That's my position. So I think the Civil War was atrocious 0.70

00:36:20.620 and wrong and unjust. It should not have happened, which is why I can sleep at night and don't feel

00:36:25.720 like a hypocrite, uh, for the fact that I'm not going to war over abortion. Um, does that make

00:36:32.180 sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think it was the North unlawfully invading the South

00:36:38.180 and you know, they may have at least claimed to have pure motives and, and certainly I'm glad

00:36:44.300 that, uh, you know, slavery was abolished because of it, but it was still a, um, they did not have

00:36:49.620 the jurisdiction to do what they do. And I think that God does care about jurisdiction. Um, but

00:36:54.620 god also uses um people violating jurisdiction to bring judgment upon those who refuse to do

00:37:01.600 justice and i think that's what happened there right yeah no i'm perfectly comfortable with

00:37:06.200 what you said in terms of like god you know in the providential sense in the ultimate sense

00:37:10.580 god ordains all things you know which come to pass and uh and so the civil war may not have

00:37:16.140 been according to god's revealed will in scripture his moral will um that that course of action in

00:37:22.820 in abolishing slavery but it certainly was according to his uh his hidden will or his

00:37:27.720 sovereign will certainly something that he ordained and he did it i think for two reasons one

00:37:32.320 um to end slavery um but two because slavery was unjust and two as a judgment for those who

00:37:40.520 would not in slavery who could have done it voluntary uh voluntarily and so um and so uh

00:37:47.480 so it's it's weird it's kind of like a you know like i i really do think you're right that the

00:37:52.260 Civil War was a judgment of God for the sin of slavery. And then I also think that a lot of what

00:38:00.320 we're experiencing in the division in the nation today over race issues is a judgment of God over

00:38:05.240 the sin of the Civil War. So I feel like it's both. And slavery, it's tough because 0.52

00:38:15.340 um it's tough because there there are uh throughout history individual slave owners

00:38:22.440 um who i i don't believe were uh who i i don't believe we're sinning and yet chattel slavery

00:38:30.560 that's race-based lifelong children um being born into slavery uh and then especially thinking of

00:38:39.420 scripture, man-stealing, kidnapping. All these things are things that the Bible strictly prohibits

00:38:46.520 and condemns. And all these things were very present and really key characteristics and

00:38:55.180 markers of the African slave trade. And I think that's what made it wrong. And yet at the same

00:38:59.940 time, it's hard. I know he's controversial, but I like Dabney. I don't know if you've read any of

00:39:08.600 Dabney and some of the things he says regarding this issue of slavery. And I certainly like

00:39:13.600 Edwards, you know, or George Whitefield. And these are men who own slaves. And I don't think,

00:39:19.820 you know, going back to the second victim narrative of women, you know, and just, well, 0.99

00:39:23.360 they're just, you know, they're just not fit for, you know, they can't help it. They just, 0.99

00:39:27.700 they're not mature enough or developed enough to be aware that they're doing something wrong. 1.00

00:39:33.560 I, I, I, I think it's atrocious to take that position of women. And I also think it's atrocious 1.00

00:39:38.820 to take that position towards George Whitefield or Jonathan Edwards. I think that's kind of the

00:39:43.900 common rhetoric that I always heard, you know, within the reformed camp, you know, as I was,

00:39:49.460 you know, growing up and coming into reformed convictions is like, you know, well, Jonathan

00:39:53.020 Edwards is a hero in the faith. He's stalwart, but you know, every generation and culture has

00:39:58.720 its blind spots. And I just, I don't think so. The dude would just ride on horseback all day long

00:40:05.220 with different color threads to remember thoughts that he had. He would literally just,

00:40:10.360 what he did, he was the greatest, arguably the greatest American mind since the founding of our

00:40:15.540 nation. He just thought all day for a living. That's all he did. And if he ever got too

00:40:21.840 preoccupied with his duties like pastoring, well then in the province of God, his congregation 0.98

00:40:26.180 was filled with dimwits who fired Jonathan Edwards. 0.97

00:40:29.280 Can you imagine? 0.99

00:40:30.260 I mean, and I think a lot of them

00:40:31.220 were probably Christians. 1.00

00:40:31.960 They have to live with that for eternity. 1.00

00:40:33.240 You know, we fired Jonathan Edwards. 1.00

00:40:36.120 Oh my goodness, how stupid could you possibly be? 1.00

00:40:39.000 You know, but it freed up his time. 1.00

00:40:40.560 That's where he writes some of his greatest works.

00:40:42.380 He goes to indigenous people here in America

00:40:44.600 as a missionary, but he has some more time.

00:40:46.800 And that's where we get, you know,

00:40:47.720 some of his greatest works.

00:40:48.960 So here's a guy who just thinks.

00:40:50.760 That's just what he does.

00:40:51.740 He just thinks all day long.

00:40:53.220 and i don't think i don't think that slavery was a blind spot i think he had a defense and he was

00:41:00.800 either wrong or he was right and i you know in general maybe he's wrong but in general this is

00:41:06.260 this is where i've gotten bradley as i've gotten older um i think that we uh i don't if i'm gonna

00:41:14.580 to bet on a generation uh it's not going to be my own i feel like when i look around like

00:41:23.160 these these are fathers that we are uh all too quick to condemn as being racist and you know

00:41:31.640 slavers and this that and the other um if they knew we were murdering babies and chopping off 0.95

00:41:38.060 the genitals of kids uh they they they would be horrified right so i just i just don't feel like 0.95

00:41:46.180 we're in a position we talk about blind spots like if any generation has some gaping blind spots it's 0.92

00:41:51.920 ours and and so you know dabney as he talks about his you know his defense of slavery not every form

00:41:57.620 of slavery there really is sin involved in that and exodus speaks to this but he just he one of

00:42:03.920 the issues that he talks about is degrees of separation. So thinking even of like kings and

00:42:08.700 rulers and empires, like, I think there was some funny business in 2020 with the election.

00:42:15.320 But there's a certain point where even if a king comes in unethically, whether it be a coup or

00:42:19.880 whether it be conquering another nation, but, you know, the war that started initially in the first

00:42:24.880 place didn't actually meet the qualifications of just war theory. But there's still like,

00:42:29.160 there's a certain point where I don't know how this guy got into power. I don't know how this

00:42:32.800 was established, or maybe I do know, and I know it was unethical, it didn't meet God's standards.

00:42:37.900 But then at a certain point, two years down the line, 20 years down the line, it's like, okay,

00:42:42.600 but homeboy is king. One way or another, he's now king. And so scriptures that say, honor the

00:42:50.320 emperor, apply to Caesar crossing the Rubicon, or it applies to, in God's sovereignty, this has

00:42:59.600 come to pass and and i don't think it should have and and so i would apply that to our own system i

00:43:04.780 i think at minimum if not an outright stealing um i think i absolutely we can argue from facts

00:43:11.900 and logic uh that we had um an election rigging if not a theft we had an election rigging um

00:43:19.840 but any way you slice it uh for these past few years joe biden has been our president

00:43:25.420 and that doesn't mean we have to agree with him and and we certainly have freedom and not only

00:43:30.000 freedom but moral obligation to call him to repentance and to hold him in check as christians

00:43:34.340 when he you know perverts justice and law of god but um but we do still have that moral obligation

00:43:39.600 to honor him as the uh the president of these united states even if he didn't get there

00:43:44.520 correctly and so my point is in terms of going back to man stealing and slavery

00:43:48.400 damny talks about degrees of separation and like what do you do if there's two tribes in africa

00:43:53.360 and it's not it's not a bunch of europeans going in and rounding up black people in the bush and 0.96

00:44:00.120 then you know capturing them and putting them on ships and and then taking them across the ocean 0.97

00:44:04.580 and selling them but there's two black tribes and they're at war and it's an unjust war and let's

00:44:11.040 say that one one tribe was actually the antagonist the perpetrator and they did so wrongly but the

00:44:17.140 other tribe that's really just defending itself in the grace of god and his sovereignty is actually

00:44:22.060 able to overpower the perpetrator and they in this war kill many of their opponents and those

00:44:28.180 that they don't kill um they capture and they line them up on the sands and white europeans 0.71

00:44:35.220 come over on a ship and they sell them and then those white europeans sell them and a few years

00:44:40.940 later they sell them and at what at some point you know and then and then you find this guy

00:44:45.360 jonathan edwards you know 13 degrees of separation down the line is he is he objectively in sin

00:44:53.060 um if he's treating his slaves fairly uh if he's not separating husbands and wives if i i it's it's

00:45:02.180 hard so was was edwards awesome but he had this blind spot or was edwards awesome period full 0.99

00:45:10.420 stop and the reason why we think he had a blind spot is because our generation is the dumbest

00:45:15.220 generation of all of human history and we have blind spots thoughts well you said a lot there 0.98

00:45:23.560 i mean you know i know i know it's uh obviously

00:45:28.960 obviously we have blind spots and obviously edward has blind spots and obviously calvin

00:45:35.340 had blind spots and obviously huss had blind spots and obviously you know peter had blind

00:45:41.240 spots. And, and I'm not saying what he wrote, he had any blind spot that's inspired by God.

00:45:46.100 But I mean, every, every man has had, you know, sins that they ask God, like David,

00:45:54.160 Lord revealed to me, you know, where my sins that I'm not even aware of. And so, you know,

00:46:01.680 I think we, I very much am grateful for those, you mentioned George Whitfield and for Jonathan

00:46:08.320 Edwards um and and you know I mean I'm very very grateful for them and they're and and for many of

00:46:15.280 our founding fathers and you know Patrick Henry and many great men many great Christian men you

00:46:21.240 know who who owned slaves um you know and many of them who wrestled with that and and and even I 0.54

00:46:28.760 think I think it's you know to try to try to do the best that they that they thought that they

00:46:33.260 could at the time with it you know like well hey I'm going to treat my slaves well and if I turn

00:46:37.400 them loosed and other people could capture them and claim them as their own and that wouldn't be

00:46:41.260 good. And I think they were well-meaning. I think that there's Christians throughout history that

00:46:47.220 are well-meaning, but they get away from the actual standard. And here I think, although 1.00

00:46:54.600 there may be a form of slavery that is biblical and lawful, like we see, even our own constitution

00:47:05.020 now says in the 13th amendment it basically says you know no slavery except um prisons

00:47:12.860 basically is what it says and you know and i would argue actually prisons is not a that's not a

00:47:19.660 depending on how we're using them right it's not a biblical form of of punishment but it but you

00:47:27.400 know are debt prisons is that something that could be biblical that that you know you you become

00:47:32.140 indebted, you're not able to pay it. So now you become the servant or slave of someone until you

00:47:37.140 pay it off. And if they don't want to hire you directly, then they send you to a, you know,

00:47:42.480 there's a workhouse where they put all these people together and they all work off. Right.

00:47:45.840 I think all that could be well and good. And I think that, you know, us getting far away from

00:47:49.580 that has actually been bad for society. And, you know, if we want to call that slavery, then yeah,

00:47:54.240 I think that there are biblical forms of that. But, you know, I don't think what was going on

00:48:00.600 by and large, you know, in the country at the time was that. And, um, you know, I think, I think

00:48:08.880 it's, but, but at the same time, I have a lot of, I have a lot of sympathy, you know, for those men

00:48:14.220 who, who I think a lot of them made the wrong decision, but, but they did genuinely wrestle

00:48:19.800 with it. Shifting from America. So you're saying, I just don't, I don't know if that was what was

00:48:26.420 going on indentured servanthood based off of debt i think you're right it wasn't indentured

00:48:31.280 servanthood based off of debt it's not a you know a bunch of african people couldn't pay off their

00:48:36.340 debts and so they were shipped to america for you know six years and then set free like certainly

00:48:40.560 that's not what happened or or even pow's right prisoners of war you know kind of situations you

00:48:47.200 know right that that would be different as well but you know whenever we're talking about them

00:48:51.180 and their children and their children's children you know that's we start to get away from that

00:48:55.300 you're right you're absolutely right yeah you get away from it um i think initially that is

00:49:00.180 what a lot was going on they were prisoners of war and there was constantly war in africa because

00:49:05.500 tribalism um tribalism uh tends towards uh unceasing conflict but um but to pan off uh pan

00:49:14.580 out from america to israel for a moment i you know that that's one of the things that got me thinking

00:49:19.220 you know, a few years back, I was, I was thinking like, um, you know, can I argue biblically that

00:49:26.480 100% of the slaves owned by, um, by members of Israel, um, that they were all, that they were 0.60

00:49:34.580 all initially enslaved because of financial issues, that they were all debtors. Um, or is 0.86

00:49:41.380 it possible, did Israel own any slaves that were sold as slaves by, you know, one foreign nation

00:49:47.820 sold as slaves by another foreign nation that defeated them in war and um and would israel be 0.97

00:49:54.680 would exodus apply to israel would would would israel be in sin and would would the fool you 0.81

00:50:01.240 know because because it's not just the enslaver the man stealer that's punishable by death according 0.62

00:50:05.400 to scripture but the one found in possession and and all scriptures god breathed and therefore

00:50:10.880 words infallibly true. But I do wonder, the one found in possession, is there an argument to be

00:50:19.120 made for degrees of separation? The one initially found in possession, who knew that this, he saw

00:50:25.100 it happen, he saw this person literally rob a child from his mother, you know, and steal him

00:50:31.160 away, and then he sold him to this first buyer, and now the first buyer is in possession, he knows

00:50:38.140 precisely how he came by uh this slave this person who was stolen kidnapped um then i'm like yeah

00:50:45.840 okay yeah death for the stealer death for the buyer but what about 13 separations down the line

00:50:52.980 where you you have no clue you just you went to the auction that day there were 13 slaves for sale

00:51:01.080 you bought one you brought them home you treated them fairly um did that happen in israel

00:51:09.080 yeah did you know did israel ever buy us you know and i so i don't know there's just anyway so i you

00:51:17.440 know reading guys like dabney reading other you know other reformers they're just there are serious

00:51:22.940 questions we want to make it so simple is my point but it's it's not that simple and uh fortunately

00:51:30.460 by the grace of God, abortion is. Abortion, because even some of the rhetoric that you

00:51:37.300 were using, you're like, you know, some of these guys, they were well-meaning and they

00:51:41.300 wrestled with it. And I think they were wrong. It was your position. I think they were wrong,

00:51:46.540 but they wrestled with it. They were well-meaning and these were good Christian men. I've got

00:51:52.100 a hunch, if I had to guess, Bradley, that you would not use that same rhetoric about

00:51:57.560 abortion you want to say you know this guy he's killed a few babies but he wrestled with it and

00:52:01.860 uh you know but you know he's a good christian man he's well-meaning you know what i mean like

00:52:06.420 i i think we have to admit that uh right slavery and abortion are not the same and um and so if

00:52:13.840 anything my whole point in argument this is argument from the greater to the lesser just

00:52:17.100 to say that uh if a civil war was justified for slavery then uh then surely we should be doing

00:52:24.160 more not less more about abortion even even more of an immediate um approach and uh and and why

00:52:33.000 stop with lawful and peaceful why not uh why not ramp it up and and but i would say the reason we

00:52:40.380 don't is because there's constantly all of us abolitionist or not there's a cost-benefit analysis

00:52:45.840 that if you know if i saw somebody if they took my kid my kid and i see my kid in the back of

00:52:52.380 their car and they're driving to a chop house where they're going to pay a hitman to put my

00:52:58.220 kid down, I'm not going to hold a sign and preach the gospel. I'm going to shoot out the tires, 0.99

00:53:05.040 run up to the car, yank them out, maybe kill them and save my kid because it's my kid. 0.99

00:53:14.300 But when it comes to saving somebody else's kid, because I have kids of my own who need a father 0.99

00:53:21.140 and not a father who is in prison for the rest of his life,

00:53:25.400 I follow a different set of standards.

00:53:27.640 Is that compromise?

00:53:29.060 I don't think so.

00:53:29.800 No, I mean, again, I think what jurisdiction do we have?

00:53:33.620 First of all, I think it's the first question.

00:53:35.260 And do we have the jurisdiction to go incite a war of aggression

00:53:40.200 against other states that are not abolishing abortion?

00:53:43.320 I don't think we have that jurisdiction.

00:53:45.400 Do I have jurisdiction to use lethal force

00:53:48.640 to stop someone from kidnapping and killing my child?

00:53:52.400 Absolutely, I do.

00:53:53.500 Not only jurisdiction, I believe I have a duty to do what I can to stop that.

00:53:58.260 And so I think jurisdiction is a very important, you know, it has to factor into.

00:54:05.240 It's a big factor in how we decide what we can lawfully do or what we must lawfully do.

00:54:11.020 And, you know, that's where we have our civil leaders in our state today.

00:54:15.860 that they do have a jurisdiction to do, you know, within the jurisdiction that they're given, right?

00:54:22.400 They don't have absolute jurisdiction, but within the jurisdiction that they're given,

00:54:26.040 they do have the duty to exercise that and not bear the sword in vain, right?

00:54:31.000 Because they are God's ministers of justice to exercise wrath upon those who do evil.

00:54:38.600 And if they're not doing that, then they're not upholding their oath, first of all,

00:54:43.720 because even the Constitution requires equal protection of the laws,

00:54:48.540 and they're not fulfilling that,

00:54:50.620 and they're certainly not fulfilling their God-given duty.

00:54:53.480 We see where God first, I believe, delegated civil authority to man in Genesis 9.

00:55:00.420 This was the area.

00:55:01.600 He said, whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.

00:55:05.160 Right before that point, God had not delegated that.

00:55:07.900 Whenever Cain killed Abel, God hadn't delegated that.

00:55:10.740 He says, I'll deal with him.

00:55:11.760 But in Genesis 9, he does delegate that.

00:55:14.500 And the first place he delegates that is the justice for those who destroy innocent life.

00:55:21.700 And so civil leaders have an absolute God-given duty to exercise justice there.

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00:57:21.220 amen so i you know the reason i'm getting all these thoughts out is because i just i've been

00:57:40.360 thinking about it you know it's it's all over it's it's the hot topic right now that uh a lot of guys

00:57:45.560 who uh like me you know i'm so i'm i'm full disclosure and being honest here a lot of guys

00:57:51.680 like me we're like yeah abolitionism yeah that's the biblical position it's got to be you know we

00:57:59.040 looked into it we investigated we you know like this is the bit and then um and it uh everything

00:58:04.920 seemed fine until uh until it was time for a presidential election and then all of a sudden

00:58:12.120 And, you know, it's like, well, but wait a second, I think I'm an abolitionist.

00:58:15.880 I want to be an abolitionist, but good, good night.

00:58:19.080 I, you know, like, I don't, I think the 19th amendment should be repealed, but you know

00:58:23.080 what's going to happen on November 5th?

00:58:24.480 Me and my wife will be voting for Donald J. Trump, noses unplugged, sleeping like babies

00:58:31.180 in the providence and sovereignty of God the night after, and hopefully he'll be elected.

00:58:36.780 And that's my position.

00:58:38.740 um and yet i now now some guys have just they've gone from i was an abolitionist 15 minutes ago to

00:58:46.040 just full rank pagan pragmatism not even a not even a wish of of principles left you know and

00:58:53.720 i i still you know i'm i'm trying to hold on to my principles and the the immutable standards of

00:58:58.620 the word of god as much as i can and so i have i have a way of biblically arguing this but i'll

00:59:02.740 let you speak first. But I still would absolutely describe myself as an abolitionist. And I think

00:59:10.380 that it's the correct position. Everything that you and I articulated earlier, and that's why

00:59:14.100 we started the episode with square one. What are the foundational tenets and what is the position?

00:59:21.980 But I just think that in a general election, when the primaries were done, Ron DeSantis,

00:59:27.380 he didn't make it. I think he's a better man than Trump, but he didn't make it.

00:59:32.740 And I appreciate, you know, Steve Dace is a friend and I think he's done this well.

00:59:38.040 I mean, he's a human being like me and you.

00:59:40.280 And so, you know, the fact that Steve Dace does something doesn't make it, you know, infallibly true.

00:59:44.820 But, you know, the position that he's taken is everybody knows, you know, that Steve Dace was very much, to say the least, very much on the DeSantis train.

00:59:54.200 You know, some of my friends are like, good grief.

00:59:56.200 You know, I had to stop listening to him for nine months.

00:59:58.220 He just became insufferable, you know.

00:59:59.700 you know um but but um i get it i get why steve days was you know pushing de santis as hard as

01:00:08.120 he did because everything that people loved about trump 2016 to 2020 uh de santis was all that and

01:00:16.640 and and more he was he was better you know trump's got paula white you know as his counselor and

01:00:22.820 and uh and kenneth copeland you know doing you know prayers and uh and and then you've got you

01:00:30.300 know desantis with tom askell are you kidding me beautiful what wonderful i mean and uh and so

01:00:37.380 anyway so so all that being said and i think desantis whether or not he's regenerate and i

01:00:41.880 think there's a good argument to be made that he is actually a brother in christ but but let's say

01:00:45.840 he's not. Let's say that he really has missed the gospel, common Roman Catholic L right there,

01:00:53.920 but let's say that he has missed the gospel and that he's not truly regenerate. I think he still 0.98

01:00:57.960 would meet the standards of Exodus 18, which actually it is a really reasonable standard

01:01:03.140 that God in his mercy sets forth. It doesn't require regeneration. You don't actually have

01:01:08.980 to be a Christian to fit the bill. And I think you would agree with everything I'm saying thus

01:01:13.000 far but then my point back to steve days is that uh but when the final you know when the verdict

01:01:19.420 came back in and uh desantis is out you know um god bless him but it's it's not going to happen

01:01:27.100 better luck uh better luck next time and it's it is donald j trump love him hate him but but it's

01:01:34.560 And you've got two choices. An administration that will seek to import 10 to 20 million more pro-abortion voters. Because that's what the Democrats will do. It's not just abortion. They will import 10 to 20 million more pro-abortion voters.

01:01:54.740 Yeah, but they won't be citizens. They don't get a vote. Yeah, right. Have you seen the legislation that cities are passing and have been for the past three years to allow non-citizens to vote in our national elections? They will vote.

01:02:09.240 And then the alternative is Donald J. Trump, who, and I'm willing to be perfectly honest,

01:02:17.000 the man is not pro-life. He's not. He is not an advocate for the unborn. I wish he was,

01:02:24.780 but he's not. And in terms of brass tacks, raw numbers, the difference between babies murdered

01:02:31.040 during the four years of a Trump administration versus the babies murdered under four years of a

01:02:36.280 Kamala Harris administration, the difference, if any, would be negligible. It would. And I'm

01:02:43.460 willing to admit all that and yet say, but by immigration alone, if Donald Trump isn't going

01:02:51.800 to be worse on the issue of life, and for the record, I think the issue of life is bigger than

01:02:55.880 immigration, but if he's not going to be worse on the issue of life, then the immigration issue

01:03:01.920 is big enough for me as it pertains to my born children

01:03:06.300 that I'm morally obligated to,

01:03:08.480 and as immigration will down the road

01:03:11.140 affect the unborn child in future elections,

01:03:14.440 I'm willing to say, as a Christian,

01:03:17.980 according to God's standard, Exodus 18,

01:03:19.900 I could not have primaried Donald Trump.

01:03:22.740 He said, here's my guy,

01:03:24.540 and bring him to the American people.

01:03:27.500 And say, this is the guy that I'm bringing forward.

01:03:29.760 i couldn't do that you'd have to primary somebody else and then in the primary as a christian you

01:03:35.360 would have needed to get behind that somebody else who actually meets god's standard but if

01:03:40.660 and when that somebody else ultimately fails in the providence of god if that's how he sees fit

01:03:45.660 and you're left with two other choices neither of them meet exodus 18 but one of them is a less

01:03:54.040 heinous evil then i think the christian and not just the christian but even the abolitionist

01:04:00.920 christian has a freedom of conscience to vote for that lesser evil and that he doesn't necessarily

01:04:07.900 have to turn in his abolitionist card but i think there are some within the abolitionist camp who

01:04:12.900 are saying you vote for trump you're out buddy you are a uh you are a pro-life split the penny

01:04:20.660 a million ways pragmatic incremental loser you know and i'm like really really so we agree on

01:04:29.580 on a b c d e f and then on z it's like the running joke you know where it's like uh are you baptist 0.68

01:04:36.360 and you know you agree on it oh baptist so am i 1689 or are you the savoy oh so am i so am i and

01:04:42.920 then you get all the way down to the you know it's like uh but what do you think about article

01:04:46.460 you know 17 and it's like yeah heretic and that's how it feels right now with the you know with

01:04:54.100 abolition issue and voting for trump and so anyways thoughts where are you at well i've got

01:05:01.380 quite a few um i got quite a few thoughts i mean first of all i'll probably make everybody mad with

01:05:06.900 some of my first thoughts here and and that is i i think that you you know they're kind of using

01:05:13.400 the well-meaning, right? I think there are Christian brothers, you know, who, who will vote

01:05:18.280 for Trump and they're still Christians. They're abolitionist brothers who will vote for Trump and

01:05:22.660 they're still abolitionists. Um, I don't think that it is a, you know, uh, voting for Trump is

01:05:28.920 a litmus test of whether or not you are an abolitionist or whether or not you are a Christian.

01:05:32.460 So I'll just start with that. And, and I'll make, make, make some folks mad on my side 0.75

01:05:37.860 of the of the wager here um you just you definitely just made a few of the ledger right there um

01:05:44.940 you know that that said i do think that i mean i'm not planning to vote for trump unless you

01:05:51.060 know unless something seriously changes there but it's not just for me it's not just the issue of

01:05:55.500 abolition right that is a huge factor um in in deciding how i how i exercise my vote in the

01:06:02.360 presidential race but but i do start with exodus 18 and i don't think that he meets that you know

01:06:07.760 2 Samuel 23.3 reiterates the first part of Exodus 18, that he who rules must rule in the fear of God.

01:06:15.700 And so I do believe that whoever I vote for must be someone who fears God.

01:06:20.460 Now, we can make that a very, very low standard, but I would say that even—I believe that President Trump doesn't even meet that standard and the other standards of Exodus 18.

01:06:33.680 So that's kind of where I start and end, you know,

01:06:36.180 before I even get to the issue of abolition.

01:06:38.700 But even going, and I know you've already discussed that quite a bit,

01:06:40.840 so I don't want to spend a ton of time on the Exodus 18,

01:06:44.460 but that's really where I'm like, I can't vote for him

01:06:46.780 because he doesn't meet this minimum standard, so I'm not.

01:06:49.620 And you think that the Exodus 18, because I'm with you,

01:06:53.820 I just, I think it's the wrong application to apply the Exodus 18 standard

01:06:58.540 to a general election.

01:07:00.440 So all I would say, as not just an abolitionist, but as a general equity theonomist, is I would say, Exodus 18 is the immutable standard of God that is applied within our system, because there are different governments, there are monarchies, but in our system, the way that Exodus 18, the general equity, is applied practically on the ground in our current American system is, for the Christian, Exodus 18 means, this is the standard for any man you set forth.

01:07:30.440 AKA primaries. But once it comes to a general election, if your man doesn't make the general

01:07:37.000 election, then I believe the Christian is free to say, okay, our nation is so wicked that it 0.88

01:07:45.300 has rejected God's standard and the good men set forth by Christians who met God's standard. 0.79

01:07:51.000 And they've said, we want wicked or wickeder. And we will not have righteousness. We will only have 0.77

01:07:56.860 wickeder, wickeder. And I think that in that scenario, now Exodus 18 no longer applies. 0.91

01:08:02.480 And the Christian is free. That's the one difference is my application of Exodus 18.

01:08:07.880 Right. And I respect, you know, I respect folks who have that distinction. I don't see that.

01:08:14.340 I don't see that distinction there. And I would say, then what is the standard, right? Or is the

01:08:22.920 standards simply vote for the you know once we get beyond the primary is it just vote for the

01:08:27.780 best candidate period is there is there no objective standard other than just vote for

01:08:34.140 the best candidate um but but kind of beyond that let's say we're let's move them beyond that right

01:08:40.560 let's say we are moving like put put xs18 to the side the way that i look at it is you know even

01:08:47.660 beyond that is, you know, I do think that, you know, the three biggest, obviously our country

01:08:54.460 is under judgment. I think we all agree with that. I think, you know, all abolitionists and

01:08:58.300 most Christians would agree with that, that our nation is under judgment and we are, even symptoms

01:09:04.220 of that judgment are an invasion. We have an invasion in our country right now. We have,

01:09:10.220 you know, wokeism and insanity, you know, the debasing of our own minds as a result of that.

01:09:17.240 We have the deep state, you know, the huge bureaucracy that it doesn't matter who's president.

01:09:22.720 They're the ones really running the country.

01:09:24.840 I think all of these things and many, many more things, but just in the civil realm, right?

01:09:29.400 These are evidences of God's judgment upon a land.

01:09:33.420 We see this throughout Scripture.

01:09:34.840 We see God brings invasions as judgment.

01:09:37.120 God brings, you know, because of the transgression of the land, many are its princes, right?

01:09:41.720 God brings the deep state as a judgment, and God brings the debasing of our minds.

01:09:47.860 Romans 1, turning ourselves over into insanity, wokeism, that's what we call that today.

01:09:54.720 Those are all signs of God's judgment.

01:09:57.740 And then I look at scripturally, what are the primary causes of God's judgment?

01:10:02.240 Obviously, idolatry is number one.

01:10:05.000 We even look at Scripture and see why did God drive out, not this chosen people, 0.99

01:10:11.260 But why did God drive out the Canaanites out of the land? 0.51

01:10:15.500 And, you know, there's three different times where God says, here's kind of the list of reasons why he does that. 0.86

01:10:23.220 And we have one list that's a list of a bunch of sexual deviancy, you know, that ultimately we see sodomy and then we see bestiality.

01:10:33.420 And then we see child sacrifice mentioned in that list.

01:10:36.500 Then we have another list where we see all this divination and necromancy and all this stuff, witchcraft.

01:10:42.660 And then we also see child sacrifice mentioned again.

01:10:45.260 And then the third time we see God just meant a child sacrifice.

01:10:49.000 So, you know, obviously, idolatry is a reason why God drives out of people.

01:10:55.760 Sexual deviancy, sodomy, you know, is a reason why God judges a people.

01:11:00.520 and then obviously child sacrifice is a reason why God judges a nation. 0.96

01:11:06.920 And God says that when it comes to the shedding of innocent blood,

01:11:11.440 the only atonement, the only temporal atonement,

01:11:14.380 Christ's blood atones for individuals,

01:11:16.800 but as far as temporally for us as a people, as a nation, as a state,

01:11:20.720 the only temporal atonement for the shedding of innocent blood

01:11:22.980 is the justice, is the death of the murderer.

01:11:27.600 And so until that happens, that blood cries out for God's justice,

01:11:33.180 and that's what we have in our country, and that's why God's judgment comes. 0.71

01:11:37.120 And God even says those who sacrifice their children to Molech,

01:11:39.980 if the people of the land close their eyes and don't provide justice upon the one doing it,

01:11:44.340 God says he'll bring justice upon the one doing it and upon the people of the land.

01:11:48.520 So all these reasons why I think that we see judgment, and many others,

01:11:53.540 But I think these are the top reasons why we see God's judgment upon this country.

01:11:58.240 And when I look at the two, you know, two viable candidates here, I look at, you know, Harris and Trump, I see both of them are going to invite more judgment.

01:12:11.220 Trump may deal with the symptoms, and I think he will deal with the symptoms of judgment better, right?

01:12:17.160 He'll deal with the invasion, with the deep state, with the wokeism better than Harris will.

01:12:22.320 But I think he will make the disease even worse. He will invite God's judgment even more. We already know that he's declared himself to be the most pro-LGBT president. When he was president, we saw lots of that.

01:12:40.380 He celebrated pride and official declaration from the White House and moved the embassy to Jerusalem, but then it had rainbow flags.

01:12:54.700 And so anyways, everybody already knows this, very, very pro-sodomite president.

01:12:59.660 And the law cabinet Republicans are celebrating what he just did to the party platform.

01:13:05.460 platform and then on the issue of idolatry you know he or you know his team with his blessing

01:13:11.820 is his own daughter-in-law or whoever it was that you know just put someone up on the platform to

01:13:18.020 declare the one true god as someone other than the one true god um you know and prayed to a false

01:13:24.780 god and idolatry and um and then we see the issue of child sacrifice where trump his administration

01:13:31.320 He said that he opposes a federal ban on abortion, and he opposes state bans on abortion.

01:13:37.840 He says leave it to the states, but then we see Arizona.

01:13:40.700 They have this – they resurrect their pre-Roe law, and he says that's too far.

01:13:45.400 That's too extreme.

01:13:46.600 They're going to take care of that there, and that then gave cover to a couple of Republicans who voted to repeal that.

01:13:54.920 And so, you know, he opposes actually any, you know, actual bans on abortion.

01:14:02.400 So I think the actual inviting of God's judgment, Trump is going to make the disease worse.

01:14:09.240 Yes, he may deal with the symptoms better.

01:14:10.800 I think he will deal with the symptoms better, but he's going to make it worse.

01:14:13.700 Worse than, because earlier you said that he would invite even more of God's judgment, more than, just to ask a clarifying question.

01:14:23.060 but more than we have i think i think both of them will invite more more than we have today

01:14:27.960 yes right right i'm with you so okay i just wanted to clarify that because i i agree with

01:14:33.780 you i think that um the path that we're heading even if it's the trump path will invite uh four

01:14:38.920 years of trump based off of what he said now here's the one silver lining that we can't we

01:14:45.320 can't put our stock in it um but i'm hoping i'm praying you can't you can't say well this is what

01:14:49.920 he's doing. I guess you don't know. We're not omniscient. But I have it on good authority.

01:14:56.020 Mr. Pierce, sometimes politicians lie. Did you know that? So it is possible that, you know,

01:15:03.120 Trump actually governs to the right of how he's been speaking. I don't think that's likely.

01:15:10.360 I wouldn't bet the farm on that, you know, but that is possible. But my point is if he governs

01:15:16.880 anywhere close to what he's been saying i you know i love sodomy i love you know uh no we don't

01:15:24.580 want to be extreme we don't want to actually save the lives of the unborn we don't want to you know

01:15:28.320 if he if he governs anywhere near his rhetoric and how he's been campaigning then i'm with you

01:15:34.080 100 that um any way you slice it you go calmly you go trump you will be inviting more of god's

01:15:39.780 judgment than we currently have right now um but trump would still be inviting less uh future

01:15:46.800 judgment than in terms of future judgment than kamala and you you agree with that yeah i think

01:15:51.920 so yeah i i i think so at least yeah now that it is different for the democrats to act like

01:15:59.080 democrats you know then then you know it is different when one person you know when you

01:16:05.260 have the party that's supposed to be the party of christians and morals and things like that

01:16:09.640 now doing the wicked things that is different but yes as far as just you know will will harris be

01:16:17.060 more pro-sodomy pro pro baby murder you know pro-idology yes i think i don't think anybody

01:16:24.920 disputes that i think there is something that you said recently online that i that i appreciate

01:16:30.140 you know and i agree with but i have a different application or i have a different uh you know

01:16:35.860 yeah, different application of it. You said something like, I love my own children more

01:16:41.920 than I love my enemy's children, or something like that. Am I quoting that, right? Or my

01:16:48.620 enemy's pre-born children. I love my own born children more than I love my enemy's unborn 0.97

01:16:53.340 children. Right. And I think, again, properly understood. Go for it. Yeah, feel free to 0.99

01:17:00.280 criticize it. No, I don't criticize. I agree with that. I mean, God gives us different levels

01:17:05.780 of affinity and affection and duties for how we love.

01:17:10.660 Yes, we are to love our families.

01:17:13.080 We're to love our neighbors.

01:17:14.060 We're to love our enemies.

01:17:15.200 We are to love all of them.

01:17:17.640 But yes, I do have a higher duty,

01:17:20.100 and I love my wife more than I love other women. 0.52

01:17:25.200 And so I love my enemies. 0.93

01:17:27.600 So there is, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong

01:17:30.120 with what you said there.

01:17:32.020 I think my own application of it, though,

01:17:34.380 So, again, kind of if XS-18 is not the standard, right, and if it's okay to vote for judgment, if it's just less judgment, even getting to kind of down the line, like, all right, I'm just voting for what I think is best for my posterity, even that.

01:17:55.460 I mean, I'm not saying I would vote for Harris, but what I've seen in my experience here in Texas is that things are better under Democrat federal administrations.

01:18:13.760 And here's what I mean by that.

01:18:14.940 And I think one of the things, and this kind of comes back full circle here back to the Civil War, I think something that is good for Texas is a growing anti-federal government sentiment.

01:18:29.260 And I think being anti-federal government is a good thing.

01:18:35.340 And I love when I see Texas standing up against the federal government.

01:18:41.800 What I saw under the Obama administration was a huge growth in that, huge growth in what was at the time called the Tea Party, standing up to the feds, resisting the feds.

01:18:54.520 I thought that was really good.

01:18:56.700 But the moment Trump got elected, that basically died instantly.

01:19:01.800 And we saw under the Trump administration not a lot of resistance to the feds.

01:19:07.480 And even here in Texas, I mean, just think about COVID, you know, if Hillary had been president, you know, God forbid, not that I would want that, but if she had been, you know, would we have been putting on the masks and shutting, shutting things down and locking ourselves up as quickly?

01:19:22.900 or would we have resisted that?

01:19:25.220 Or maybe just done that for two or three weeks

01:19:26.780 and then said, you know, forget this.

01:19:28.620 I think the likelihood that we would have resisted way more

01:19:32.320 would have happened, you know,

01:19:35.080 if a Democrat had been in the White House

01:19:36.760 than if it had been a Republican.

01:19:39.020 And I think about like Greg Abbott.

01:19:41.840 You know, Greg Abbott is our governor here.

01:19:44.400 The Greg Abbott under the Biden administration

01:19:46.780 has been way better than the Greg Abbott

01:19:49.520 under the Trump administration.

01:19:51.980 And so I think, you know, I think just what do I think is best for Texas?

01:19:57.860 Because I'm a Texas first guy.

01:19:59.700 I know Trump says America first.

01:20:01.580 I'm a Texas first.

01:20:02.600 America second is where I'm at.

01:20:05.660 And I think, you know, although I think Harris will bring lots of bad things and Biden has brought lots of bad things on Texas, I think a resistance to the federal government is good for Texas.

01:20:17.960 and we see way more of that whenever it's not our guy who still exercises federal tyranny

01:20:25.120 over our state you know it's better when it's not our guy that's yeah i think that's a great point

01:20:31.280 another point that i've heard you know some of my brothers uh make that i think is another good

01:20:36.460 point is saying okay joel you love you know natural factions you love your kids more than

01:20:39.740 you love your enemy's kids i get it um and because i love my kids too um i want you know one of the

01:20:46.600 biggest things that i'm afraid is uh not just an invasion of military aged men across the border 0.59

01:20:51.920 uh criminals who are raping women and uh and murdering people that's a threat to my kids but

01:20:58.760 the biggest threat to my kids is the judgment of god and so um the best thing i can do to protect 0.96

01:21:03.820 my children um is um to take part uh no part to take no part in uh wickedness and uh like you

01:21:12.380 know, to, um, be like righteous lot. If, uh, we must live in Sodom, if we have nowhere else to go,

01:21:18.500 uh, then I just, I want to make sure that, um, as federal head of my family, my children,

01:21:23.480 I don't want, uh, to have my hand in any part of the wickedness going around, uh, going on around

01:21:30.760 me and, uh, to spare my children that so that God would, uh, take a note of a righteous lot,

01:21:36.800 take note of, of, uh, our household. As for me in our house, you know, we will serve the Lord

01:21:41.860 and that uh that maybe in his kindness that there would be kind of like a passover passing over you

01:21:49.320 know the blood on the on the mantle of our door so that uh as his judgment comes uh and the wicked

01:21:54.840 perish uh that that um that that as we've sought to fear god and and to um to not offend him further

01:22:05.100 offend him that maybe um he would be so kind as to spare of him i think that's a that's a good

01:22:10.320 argument too. I get that. I like that because it's in this natural affections. The reason I

01:22:18.060 brought that up was just to say, and for the record, my post was not to say in any context,

01:22:22.640 any scenario, zero disclaimers. No, I would not vote. So let's say you've got a guy who's pro

01:22:30.560 abortion, but he's going to, well, my kids aren't in danger of being aborted because I'm not a

01:22:38.540 we could degenerate. I'm not a murderer, praise God. Such were some of you. I would have been,

01:22:43.880 you know, but God saved me. So all glory goes to him. I'm not a murderer. So my children aren't

01:22:48.740 in danger of being murdered. So let's say you got a pro-abortion candidate who doesn't threaten my

01:22:55.040 children because their dad is not a murderer by the grace of God. But this guy's really great on

01:23:01.980 taxes and he's going to bring jobs back to America first, you know, he's good for the economy. And

01:23:07.520 There was some abolitionist, I think, that read my post and explicitly read it, I think,

01:23:13.000 intentionally in the least charitable light you could possibly imagine.

01:23:16.420 And they were like, he's talking about, he loves his children.

01:23:19.760 He means economically at the cost of other children in terms of their physical preservation.

01:23:25.700 And I was like, no, no, no, I'm going to vote for Trump.

01:23:29.560 And here's, I didn't think it needed to be said out loud.

01:23:32.060 I thought it was assumed, but I'm going to vote for Trump in this election.

01:23:35.660 i didn't say i'm going to vote for trump in all times in all places that if trump was running 0.56

01:23:40.680 against dusty deavers i'd still vote trump if that's no i was saying i'm going to vote for trump

01:23:46.200 in in 2024 in this election against the alternative um i i wasn't talking about a hypothetical i was

01:23:54.900 talking about real life and um and so uh that that's what i meant so so my point is uh with

01:24:00.280 natural affections. I just want to clarify that. As a father, you do what's best for your family,

01:24:08.400 but that doesn't mean that it's not you do what's best for your family, period, without any...

01:24:15.240 No, there might be someone who is better for your kids economically or some other aspect,

01:24:22.780 but they're a murderer. And then somebody else over here might not be as best for your kids.

01:24:28.400 your kids may not be able to have a down payment for their home when they're 25 if you vote for

01:24:33.140 this guy. But this guy's going to save babies. Well, then I would have to vote for that guy

01:24:38.420 over and against the economic financial ease of my own children because the issue of life is that

01:24:44.780 big. So I just wanted to throw that out there publicly on air. When I said I'll vote for Trump

01:24:50.040 for natural affection reasons, that was not to say that I would vote for Trump in any election

01:24:56.120 against any alternative, because natural affections always supersede any other issue.

01:25:04.660 There are exceptions. But in this election, it's like a vote for Trump, and the alternative is

01:25:12.140 someone who is even more murderous, who is even more inclined to let my enemies murder their own

01:25:18.080 children, and bad for the economy, and the border, and this, and that. And so that's the argument

01:25:25.880 that i was making that um whereas i feel like you know others would say no um i i you know i could

01:25:34.120 i could i could maybe potentially ward off some of the symptoms of god's judgment in the short run

01:25:40.660 by voting trump but um but i won't um because i he doesn't meet he doesn't meet the standard

01:25:48.680 and i can't do it and i understand that i you know i don't think that my abolitionist brothers

01:25:55.000 such as yourself are, I certainly don't think that that's a sinful position to say, I cannot

01:26:01.600 vote for either candidate in this election. But yeah, I think that it's tough because, you know,

01:26:10.460 I probably would have said, I think a lot of guys would have said years ago that, you know,

01:26:15.540 we're one issue voters. It's just, you know, the issue of life. And now it's, you know,

01:26:19.700 it really has caused me to question in a, in a general election, what, um, what is the standard?

01:26:27.160 You brought it up earlier. You know, you said like, so is there a standard or is it just always

01:26:31.940 the lesser of two evils into perpetuity forever? You know, now it's, you know, the year of our

01:26:37.440 Lord 2050, you know, and, uh, one guy is going to kill, you know, 4 million, you know, zillion,

01:26:43.400 trillion, and the other guy's going to kill, you know, one less, like, does that guy get your vote

01:26:48.120 too, you know, and it's, it's caused me to think about, you know, what is the standard for voting

01:26:53.900 in a general election? Because if it's not Exodus 18, then there is no other standard biblically

01:27:01.900 besides Exodus. So you can't say, well, it's actually this other verse that says you can

01:27:06.980 murder some, you know, that there is no such verse. And so I think it really is, if it's not

01:27:11.700 Exodus 18, then it really is voting for the least destruction for your people. I'm trying to ward off 0.68

01:27:20.520 as much destruction as I possibly can. That inevitably becomes the standard. And I think

01:27:27.460 that's where I'm at, honestly. And I'm willing to say that publicly. I think as a Christian,

01:27:32.800 when it comes to a federal general election in the primaries, no, no, no. You go by Exodus 18.

01:27:40.720 you can't present a guy when you're presenting a bill just bill presenting a candidate just

01:27:45.340 candidate at every level but uh but once your country comes back to you and says we are 0.97

01:27:50.640 completely degenerate we hate your god we hate your family we hate your children and uh we will 0.76

01:27:56.520 have wickedness or even greater wickedness then i do think the christian is free to say um yeah 0.88

01:28:03.240 at that point, then the lesser of two evils does become the standard in a general federal election.

01:28:12.620 And I know that you would vehemently disagree with that, but I think that is, and I've been

01:28:18.800 thinking about it a lot, but as I'm theologically wrestling with it, if it's not Exodus 18,

01:28:24.240 then it is the lesser of two evils. That's your standard. That is your standard. And so I'm

01:28:30.540 willing to at least be honest enough, much to the chagrin of probably a lot of my abolitionist

01:28:36.660 brothers, but I'm willing to say out loud that yes, that is the standard. The lesser of two

01:28:41.740 evils, it is using whatever little bit of civil power God has providentially given me to ward off

01:28:48.700 is much destruction and harm towards my people as I possibly can. That's my standard. And I think

01:28:57.880 that that is permissible in a general election when there is no other option.

01:29:03.160 Well, and again, I think it's something that brothers can disagree on. I don't think it is

01:29:08.520 something that, you know, that Exodus 18 is, you know, again, we can be as dogmatic as scripture

01:29:17.180 is. And there, I think it's clear, but I'm not going to go so far as to say I believe it's an

01:29:23.360 issue of orthodoxy that you have to agree that that's a standard in the general election.

01:29:27.880 You know, I do think that it is, you know, as far as voting for God's judgment, you know, again, we can throw out scriptures, you know, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

01:29:42.720 And I think that, you know, the question then is, okay, well, is voting for Trump having fellowship with, you know, with those fruits?

01:29:52.040 And, you know, and again, my conscience is that it is bound by Exodus 18, and it is bound to vote against the things that—to vote against someone who says and has supported the things that are the most abominable to God for civil leaders to support.

01:30:09.580 That, yeah, I'm just not—I don't believe I'm free to vote for that. 0.52

01:30:14.620 But I—but that said, I do, you know, reasonable brothers can disagree on this, and I do agree with that. 0.93

01:30:21.860 And something else that I also think is that, you know, the Christians and abolitionists,

01:30:29.480 that we have a lot of work to do and a lot of organizing to do to be stronger politically. 0.94

01:30:37.100 And that's something that we really try to do with Abolish abortion Texas here in Texas,

01:30:41.080 is that we're not just—we are being prophetic and preaching and bringing the gospel,

01:30:47.560 and here's what God says to do during the legislative session.

01:30:49.880 but then we also have to be active during the election season uh and not just cursing the

01:30:56.500 darkness right but actually bringing uh bringing light and bringing heat uh where it's needed and

01:31:03.040 where it's felt and and we've seen a lot of good fruit here in texas and i and i'd like to at some

01:31:07.880 point see that nationally and i hope that there will be more organization toward that end amen

01:31:12.620 well on that note um how can our listeners support what you guys are doing anything that

01:31:18.880 they can do to get involved or even donations giving whatever it may be we i mean we'd love

01:31:24.100 we're a 501c3 the foundation to abolish abortion people can go to faa.life and support us there

01:31:29.660 or if you're in texas we're a 51c4 so that way we can lobby so you can't get a tax deduction but

01:31:35.420 you can support us abolishabortiontx.org but really the main thing right now the action item that we

01:31:41.400 that we're asking people to do is to support uh is to go watch the docuseries abortionfree.com

01:31:48.820 or at our Foundation Abolish Abortion YouTube channel.

01:31:52.920 Watch that.

01:31:53.920 Share that with your pro-life friends.

01:31:56.020 We need people to become aware of what's really going on.

01:31:59.140 Otherwise, people are still going to be walking around

01:32:00.880 with this false sense of victory in these states.

01:32:04.680 And we've got to overcome that.

01:32:07.220 So please help us get that out

01:32:09.040 and share that with as many people as you can.

01:32:11.880 Amen.

01:32:12.460 Okay.

01:32:13.040 Thank you, Bradley, for all your work

01:32:14.440 and your faithfulness.

01:32:17.060 And thanks for being willing to come on the show.

01:32:18.820 knowing you knew ahead of time

01:32:21.520 that we would disagree on the Trump issue

01:32:23.560 and yet you still came on.

01:32:25.100 I appreciate it.

01:32:26.320 I appreciate the discussion.

01:32:27.840 All right. God bless.

01:32:29.080 Thanks for having me.

The NXR Podcast - August 05, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - Abolitionism & Donald Trump with Bradley Pierce

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