The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - Abolitionists & Voting For Trump with Ben Garrett

00:00:00.000 Hi, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:02.100 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin

00:00:03.220 with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:04.780 In this episode, I'm privileged to welcome Ben Garrett

00:00:07.000 from Ogden, Utah, Refuge Church.

00:00:09.580 He's a co-host with Brian Sauve on Haunted Cosmos,

00:00:12.620 that podcast that we all know and love.

00:00:15.080 But today, we are not talking about Fortean subject matter.

00:00:18.380 We're not talking about the unhinged Bigfoot

00:00:21.140 and Nephilim and these kinds of things.

00:00:22.740 Instead, we're talking about something

00:00:23.840 that is incredibly relevant, timely, urgent, and practical,

00:00:27.880 as well as deeply theological.

00:00:29.200 We are talking about the upcoming presidential election as it pertains specifically to the 0.97

00:00:34.080 context of Christians who are, and rightfully so, abolitionists regarding their position 0.99

00:00:40.000 towards abortion. 0.92

00:00:41.740 Both Ben and I happily and proudly wear the t-shirt, the hat, the hoodie, the whole nine

00:00:47.240 yards abolitionist.

00:00:48.780 That is our position.

00:00:50.860 We want to see equal weights and measures. 0.53

00:00:52.780 We want to see equal penalties for the murder of the unborn so that we would have equal

00:00:58.100 protections for the unborn child, that it wouldn't be open season on an entire class of people,

00:01:03.480 namely the unborn child, because that's the only way to defend the claim that we believe in equal

00:01:08.700 dignity. You got to have equal penalties so that you have equal protections so that you have equal

00:01:13.340 value. The child in the womb is not partly made in the image of God, is not part of a human life,

00:01:19.660 but fully dignified just as any born person. The same value, the same weight, the same dignity,

00:01:25.300 therefore deserving of equal protection, therefore mandating equal penalties. That

00:01:30.840 includes not only the abortion doctor, but also the mother and also a father or anybody else

00:01:35.660 who's involved in coercion. The second victim narrative is from the pit of hell. There's our

00:01:41.320 bona fides. We are abolitionists. And we're going to make the case for why abolitionists

00:01:46.780 should vote for Trump, who right now is not doing great on the issue of the life of the unborn.

00:01:54.060 we recognize that it's serious it matters and yet we believe christians should still vote for trump

00:02:00.020 and we're going to make that case in this episode tune in now applying god's word to every aspect of

00:02:06.040 life this is theology applied welcome back to another episode of theology applied i am your

00:02:17.140 host pastor joel webin with right response ministries in this episode i'm privileged to

00:02:21.380 Welcome back to the show, Ben Garrett from Ogden, Utah at Refuge Church, also a part

00:02:26.560 of New Christendom Press, and the co-host with Brian Sauve of a podcast called Haunted

00:02:32.240 Cosmos.

00:02:33.160 Ben, welcome to the show.

00:02:34.900 Thank you, Joel, for having me, as always.

00:02:37.240 Just good to see your face.

00:02:38.580 You too.

00:02:39.280 Wonderful to see you.

00:02:40.140 Thanks for coming on the show.

00:02:41.580 Today, we are not going to be talking about unhinged matters, maybe a little unhingedness,

00:02:47.120 but unhinged in a different way.

00:02:49.540 So it's not the Fortean kind of mysterious Nephilim and Bigfoot and those kinds of things.

00:02:55.000 We want to talk about something that is deeply theological, but also deeply political, and

00:03:00.140 hopefully be a blessing to the church at large in terms of equipping the saints to think

00:03:06.600 in categories.

00:03:07.360 And so we're going to be talking about the abolitionist movement and the upcoming presidential

00:03:12.800 election between President Joe Biden and former President Trump.

00:03:16.580 so that's kind of uh the topic for today ben do you want to lead off with any thoughts um i can

00:03:24.000 frame it up for us but i want to give you i uh i i would love to start by saying simply that i am an

00:03:31.620 abolitionist in terms of the end end goal of this whole thing which is that i want abortion

00:03:37.180 completely eradicated from not only the nation but the world and i believe that it will be

00:03:42.260 So this is more a question of methodology and how we apply these principles more than it is of the principle itself. And so I would go hand in hand with my abolitionist brothers and say, heck yeah, man, keep doing your thing. It's really good.

00:03:59.320 I think that most abolitionists do an unbelievable amount of effective work in the political realm,

00:04:07.540 especially at the local level. They know their local magistrates. They talk to them regularly.

00:04:13.980 They send them letters. They organize campaigns to get the right one elected and city council

00:04:19.600 and things like that. And that's all amazing. So really, I guess just to start, I'd want to

00:04:24.820 sing the praises of my abolitionist brothers and say that I'm glad to be a co belligerent with you

00:04:30.060 in this big fight. And, um, and so I want us to all just stay friends. We can disagree about

00:04:35.560 how we vote in a federal election. Um, and we can both give our, our defense for why we believe what

00:04:41.680 we believe in that regard and, and yet still be like, yeah, and you're my brother at the end of

00:04:45.660 the day. And I'm going to go to bat with you and get in the shield wall with you. Amen. Um, and

00:04:50.420 And for those listening, if you are not only an abolitionist in terms of your position,

00:04:55.860 but you are, you know, tightly knitted with abolitionist groups such as Abolitionist Rising

00:05:03.740 or End Abortion Now or, you know, some of these different groups, Abolish Abortion Taxes.

00:05:09.520 I think of like Bradley Pierce.

00:05:10.880 I think of Russell Hunter.

00:05:12.660 I think of Jeff Durbin.

00:05:13.780 I think of Dusty Deavers.

00:05:15.100 There's a lot of great guys in that space.

00:05:17.860 and if you're tied with some of them you might you know recoil a little bit at one portion of

00:05:23.980 what ben said um you know when he said i am an abolitionist in terms of the destination the goal

00:05:29.800 to eradicate abortion um you know but uh we differ you said like we differ on the methodology and i

00:05:36.700 know you know plenty of guys who would say well then that's you're not an abolitionist sure i

00:05:40.880 mean that's the whole argument is over you know how not just where we're going but um how we're

00:05:46.700 going to get there the methodology the strategy is it you know incrementalism and they're you know

00:05:51.280 the big problem with incrementalism from the abolitionist standpoint to steel man um these

00:05:56.940 guys because i would i would say that not only are they brothers but um i i i too would say that i am

00:06:03.720 an abolitionist whether um i'm allowed in the club or not i i would identify myself that way whether

00:06:09.120 or not they would identify me in that light um but i would say that um the incrementalism problem

00:06:15.740 is that in terms of the way that it often plays out,

00:06:19.060 it's just splitting the penny a million times.

00:06:21.760 And so the reason why both Ben and I

00:06:23.900 are self-identifying as abolitionists 0.61

00:06:26.320 and the reason why that matters

00:06:27.340 is you might be saying,

00:06:28.340 well, the methodology is,

00:06:29.720 that's the whole enchilada.

00:06:30.960 That is the determining factor

00:06:33.260 between incrementalist and an abolitionist

00:06:35.980 is not where we're going,

00:06:37.180 but how we get there.

00:06:38.960 However, the reason why I think

00:06:41.420 that it's a little bit more complex than that

00:06:43.720 is because most of pro-life Inc. has absolutely no desire to abolish abortion. In fact,

00:06:51.980 they very much have financial and political incentives not to abolish abortion. Abolishing

00:07:00.060 abortion, America having zero abortion is actually one of the last things that pro-life Inc. would

00:07:08.020 would ever want to happen uh because you know they well for one they'd have to get a job you

00:07:13.440 know like they want to be able to continue to milk boomers uh with you know 501c3 non-profit

00:07:19.860 organizations that um that essentially accomplish nothing it's just splitting the penny a million

00:07:26.000 times where there is no end in sight um like you talk to most pro-life you know um you know

00:07:33.040 incorporated institutionalized pro-life leaders and even volunteers and they abhor the idea of

00:07:41.300 of uh you know equal protection that you know they they're very much um as as a mantra they

00:07:47.680 they believe you know the second victim narrative um like guys like brent leatherwood you know that

00:07:54.000 uh that the mother she's a victim too you know and so uh she shouldn't have any punishment

00:07:59.060 much less you know should she be treated as though she's committed homicide we just want

00:08:04.840 to see you know uh certain penalties primarily in the form of fines uh for the abortion doctor

00:08:13.080 he's you know he's the real monster and i would say well yeah he is a monster but everybody

00:08:18.840 involved in murder uh needs to be treated as a murderer and that would also for you know that 0.84

00:08:25.120 involves you know the the serial killer aka the abortion doctor the hit man who's paid to murder

00:08:33.340 children by the hundreds and the thousands that also involves the mother with intent that's first

00:08:40.220 degree murder who goes in premeditated with intent to kill her child and for the record that also

00:08:45.460 involves the father or a grandmother or a grandfather or anyone else in the scenario

00:08:52.120 who might be involved through coercion,

00:08:54.120 who is pushing the mother toward that decision,

00:08:57.160 then the father and anybody else likewise

00:09:00.480 needs to be treated under the law

00:09:04.140 with equal weights and measures

00:09:05.320 as though they conspire together 0.84

00:09:07.060 to kill a two-year-old toddler in a back alley. 0.94

00:09:10.740 It should be treated like that. 0.99

00:09:12.160 A life is a life.

00:09:13.180 And basically the logic is simple.

00:09:15.700 You have to have equal penalties.

00:09:17.940 Homicide across the board,

00:09:19.440 whether it be unborn or born,

00:09:20.700 needs to be treated as homicide. If you don't have equal penalties, then you cannot say that

00:09:26.120 there is equal protection. You have an entire class of people, namely the unborn, where you

00:09:31.580 have this open season that's essentially been declared. Like if you kill someone who's born,

00:09:37.360 you're going to be treated as though you've committed homicide. If you kill somebody 0.96

00:09:41.540 unborn, you will receive either nothing, no penalty at all, or a slap on the wrist.

00:09:47.040 What you've essentially just said is that there's an entire class of human beings made in the image of God that you're allowed to kill. 0.99

00:09:53.380 Like, imagine if we did that for any other class of people, you know, you kill a white man and you're in big trouble. 0.98

00:09:58.620 You kill a black man and, you know, maybe you have a slight, you know, penalty or maybe no penalty at all. 0.99

00:10:05.200 People would be enraged, you know. 0.99

00:10:07.020 And so all that being said, I'm saying all these things just to, you know, to kind of display a little bit of been in my bona fides as it pertains to the position of abolitionism.

00:10:19.080 So when we say we're abolitionists, we're saying we despise pro-life Inc.

00:10:23.680 We think that they're from the pit of hell, that they have no desire to abolish abortion.

00:10:27.920 Even worse than that, Democrats don't want to abolish abortion, but Pro-Life Inc. also doesn't want to abolish abortion and yet wants to lie and deceive conservative voters and donors and take their money as they don't abolish abortion.

00:10:43.400 So they're wormtongue behind the throne of Theoden, saying that they're very interested in helping the king succeed all the while making sure that he stays under Sauron's fist and is capable of actually promoting anything good for his kingdom.

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00:13:10.860 So the line of logic is simple, equal penalties without equal penalties for the murder of

00:13:17.040 the unborn versus the murder of the born.

00:13:19.040 If those don't have those two acts, crimes don't have equal penalties, then you cannot

00:13:24.740 claim to have equal protection.

00:13:26.660 equal protection for those who are those lives which have already been born versus the lives of

00:13:31.940 the unborn and if you don't have equal protection then you cannot claim to believe in equal dignity

00:13:37.060 dignity that so that's the kind of the three the three lines of of logic is you know a plus b

00:13:43.880 then c so equal penalties is the only way uh with with a clear conscience before the lord to truly

00:13:50.720 say, by having equal penalties, you've actually set up equal protection. And without equal

00:13:57.900 protection, then you cannot claim to believe in equal dignity. You must, if you're going to be

00:14:02.840 honest, you must say that at the end of the day, we believe that the unborn child is part of a

00:14:10.500 human life. It has some dignity, some value, but it has a lesser value. We have decided there will

00:14:18.960 be lesser penalties because we are okay. We think it's permissible to have lesser protections and

00:14:26.520 we're okay with lesser protections because at the end of the day, we believe that there's a lesser

00:14:30.560 value, that this unborn child has less dignity. So that's the line of logic. So if you don't

00:14:36.660 believe in capital punishment for all those involved, including the mother, when it comes

00:14:43.440 to abortion, then it's not just, you're not an abolitionist. You are not holding the Christian 0.89

00:14:48.460 position. You are in sin. You're not being just at all. You're in justice. All right. So those 0.81

00:14:55.240 are those are our bona fides. In that sense, that's what we're that's what we mean when we

00:14:59.200 say we're abolitionist. Now, I'll go one step further. I'll throw a few things out speaking

00:15:02.840 for myself. And then, Ben, you can either say, yeah, I'm with you. Or you can say, yes, but

00:15:07.180 and clarify your position if there's any way that you differ with me. Does that sound good?

00:15:11.600 Sounds great. All right. So we've established, you know, first the destination, equal penalties,

00:15:17.040 equal protection, equal dignity. Actually abolishing, intergalactic abolishing of abortion.

00:15:22.900 We want to see it, you know, one day, you know, if Elon gets us to Mars, abortion needs to be

00:15:28.240 abolished there too. So we're for that, not just in our nation, but the world. Second, okay, now 0.93

00:15:34.300 we're getting to the how, the methodology, the strategy. I would likewise fall into the abolitionist

00:15:40.780 camp and with some strong disagreements with my incrementalist, even smash mouth incrementalism

00:15:47.840 brothers in Christ in a few regards. Here's one. I believe that at the local level,

00:15:54.520 as it pertains to locally presenting bills, I believe that they must be equal weights and

00:16:04.180 measures, God's standard of justice, they must be just bills. That a Christian cannot propose 1.00

00:16:09.920 a bill that says you must not murder on Wednesday, but you can commit murder on Thursday. I would say 1.00

00:16:17.700 that that is an unjust bill and that a Christian cannot propose a bill like that apart from it 1.00

00:16:24.140 being sent. Agree? Disagree? What do you think? Completely agree. Great. So now we're talking 1.00

00:16:29.900 about methodology, not just the destination, but how we get there. And we are distinguishing

00:16:34.340 ourselves from your classical incrementalist because the incrementalist, even the smash mouth

00:16:39.660 incrementalist, if I might be so bold, I think this is true and a steel man, not a straw man

00:16:44.020 of their position. They would say, um, that you actually can propose unjust bills, uh, so long as

00:16:51.180 it's moving the needle in the right direction. If it's going to result in less murders, um,

00:16:56.820 then then uh as long as you're it's it's not um justice is determined not by um the innate

00:17:05.220 position that you present but um but merely by comparison so long as your position the bill you

00:17:12.300 propose is an improvement on the last one and the problem with that is one that's not god's standard

00:17:16.920 of justice two um even from a pragmatic approach and i'm not a guy who thinks all pragmatism is

00:17:25.100 bad i think that that that's on it let's just be honest the whole attack from reform baptists and

00:17:30.460 presbyterians on pragmatism you know over the last you know 10 20 years we should have been

00:17:35.920 clear on that because really what we were talking about was laser lights and smoke machines on the

00:17:40.340 lord's day we're talking about the regular principle of worship we weren't talking about

00:17:43.460 politics right and now but now there's all these young guys who've been discipled into anything

00:17:49.300 pragmatic as sin you know or fleshly you know sarks carnal and and not of god you know it's not

00:17:55.600 by might nor by power but by my spirit says the lord yeah david always assembled an army though

00:18:00.380 right yeah so yes we you know like we don't trust in in horses and chariots our trust is in the lord

00:18:06.700 but david still had horses and chariots that were trained and equipped and furnished out of the

00:18:12.660 dowry of the king and so you know so anyway so pragmatism is not an inherent evil um i think

00:18:18.440 being pragmatic at the cost of the regular of what god prescribes prescriptive commands for

00:18:24.760 worship on the lord's day that is sin but there's a distinction there go ahead yeah well especially

00:18:30.400 politically you want to be as shrewd as a serpent you want to be that but you also have to be as

00:18:37.180 as innocent as a dove and so there's a lot of room for pragmatism in the political sphere

00:18:42.300 not nearly as much in the ecclesiastical sphere though sometimes there may be some on tertiary

00:18:47.320 issues right but when your pragmatism is butted up against a clear standard of god's justice

00:18:52.920 you can't participate in that pragmatism amen amen okay so that's uh so step one was

00:18:59.160 the destination what actually are we trying to accomplish we're both on the same page and we

00:19:03.640 would agree that the abolitionists would have no difference with us thus far now we're talking

00:19:08.520 about step two the the methodology the strategy how do we get there in terms of bills that's the

00:19:13.480 first thing that we're addressing presenting bills and we're saying they have to be just bills

00:19:17.240 bills for the complete abolition of abortion, which again, includes, you know, equal penalties,

00:19:23.600 therefore equal protection, therefore equal value. Right, right there on that step, we again have

00:19:29.700 distinguished ourselves from incrementalist, including smash mouth incrementalist. And,

00:19:34.480 and, you know, and, and I think we still, our abolitionist brothers would say, yep, so far,

00:19:40.840 so good on the same page. Next thing that I would bring to the table, still in the realm of how

00:19:45.760 methodology. How do we accomplish this goal of abolishing abortion? Next thing I would say

00:19:50.780 is in terms of local elections, local elections, and primarily in the primaries and selecting

00:20:00.060 candidates, lobbying for certain candidates, running campaigns, working towards, you know,

00:20:06.420 one of the premier examples would be like Senator Dusty Devers. God bless him forever. May he live

00:20:11.500 forever um you know for more years um you know and so uh that that was abolitionists were heavily

00:20:18.340 involved dusty devers is an abolitionist himself and very outspoken about that and uh that would

00:20:23.740 be a great example of our brothers and sisters in christ who are abolitionists um not larping i

00:20:29.280 don't think that that's a fair characterization uh but actually getting something done they got

00:20:34.100 they got a guy elected as a state senator it's amazing it's amazing praise god yeah it's oklahoma

00:20:40.020 You know, but Oklahoma's still a state, you know, praise God. And so that's, that's incredible. So I would say at that level, so bills that you present, they must be abolitionist bills, they must be just. And then same with, I think I personally would say the same with candidates in terms of not the final vote for a candidate, but in terms of candidates that you present, just like presenting a bill, presenting candidates in terms of your campaigning, in terms of your selection, identifying, lobbying, especially in local elections,

00:21:09.400 and especially at the level of primary local, in the primaries of local elections, same standard.

00:21:15.760 This guy has to abhor abortion and want to see it abolished. Okay. So what do you think? Yes,

00:21:21.600 no? Yeah, I completely agree. When a Christian is lobbying actively for a candidate, especially

00:21:27.540 a local magistrate, especially a local magistrate who has a ton of say over his everyday life in

00:21:33.000 the city, he must be able to stand behind that candidate in a way that's more ideal.

00:21:40.680 Now, the man is imperfect. There will be sin. But if the man is directly contradicting God's

00:21:48.380 standard of justice and morality, then at a local level and actively lobbying for a primary type 0.67

00:21:55.340 election, I don't think a Christian should back that man up, should back his play. If he knows 1.00

00:22:00.340 that that candidate is in an adulterous affair with another woman, then it would be foolish of 0.96

00:22:05.240 a Christian to say, well, he should definitely be the civil magistrate though. Right. That would be 0.99

00:22:09.120 foolish. And so at the primary level, completely agree. Great. Okay. So now let's say still a 0.97

00:22:15.980 local election, not federal. We'll get there last because that's the big thing where I think we

00:22:21.520 would differ is can you be a Christian, an abolitionist Christian and vote for Donald

00:22:28.100 j trump spoiler alert you bet your bottom dollar you can um and you should but we'll save that for

00:22:35.360 a little bit later on and make a you know flesh out our arguments there but so now let's talk

00:22:38.680 about it's not primary so so we've already addressed bills we're now talking and for the

00:22:42.600 record the public doesn't vote on bills elected official we vote on individuals uh to be elected

00:22:48.660 to office both locally and federally and then those officials vote on bills and that's why

00:22:55.160 the bills presented by these elected officials they need to be just and the the elected officials

00:23:03.000 themselves in the primaries of local elections and i would also argue even at the federal level

00:23:07.880 in the primaries we need to be selecting good candidates that meet god's standard of justice

00:23:14.780 and i would actually apply here as a general equity theonomy guy i would apply deuteronomy 18

00:23:19.920 as it pertains to the primary, as it pertains to, this would be kind of, this would be like

00:23:26.260 Acts chapter seven, Acts chapter six, where the apostles, so you could do Deuteronomy 18 and think

00:23:32.140 of Moses in Israel, but you could also think of the apostles and the church at Jerusalem and a

00:23:37.060 New Testament example, because apparently every evangelical, if it's not in the New Testament,

00:23:41.320 then it's not Christian. So we'll go with that, you know, which is so stupid. 1.00

00:23:45.140 Yeah, Joel, New Testament Christianity. 1.00

00:23:46.980 New Testament Christianity. Right.

00:23:49.160 New Testament Christianity doesn't have enemies, even though Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies.

00:23:55.020 You know, it's weird.

00:23:56.380 But anyways, so all that being said, the point is that the church at Jerusalem was commissioned by the apostles to select men to fill the office of what we believe was kind of the, you know, the origin of the diaconate.

00:24:11.580 But what's noticeable is there's four criteria that is not set by the people.

00:24:18.520 It's not democratic. It's not the people and their collective corporate decision,

00:24:23.460 but rather the apostles themselves make four determinations. One, the timing. They could

00:24:31.860 have said it, you know, six months in advance, or they could have said it six years after the fact,

00:24:35.820 but they determined when deacons were required. We need deacons now. So they determined the timing

00:24:41.780 of when deacons would be appointed. Number two, the number of deacons, not three men,

00:24:47.620 not 10 men, seven. We want seven. Okay. So when deacons would be appointed, how many deacons

00:24:54.200 would be appointed, the qualifications for those deacons, they need to be men. They need to be 0.70

00:25:00.360 filled with the Holy Spirit, endowed with wisdom. So they need to be qualified. Here are the

00:25:04.460 qualifications. So they determine when we need deacons, how many deacons we need, what caliber

00:25:10.140 of men they need to be, the qualifications for deacons. And then lastly, also the role of that

00:25:16.860 office. What are their duties? We need deacons for a particular purpose. So you, the church,

00:25:24.100 in a democratic fashion, do not get to decide what the deacons are going to be doing. So you

00:25:29.260 don't determine how many we're going to have. You don't determine when we're going to have them.

00:25:32.300 You don't determine what their qualifications will be. And you also don't determine what their

00:25:36.220 task will be. You don't get to pick seven men filled with Holy Spirit and then say,

00:25:40.440 And we'd like these seven men to, you know, to be the party planners committee of the Jerusalem church for, you know, conducting, you know, outings and fun, you know, birthday parties for, you know, the families that are members of the church here at Jerusalem.

00:26:00.280 You don't get to do that.

00:26:01.300 The apostles have already said, here's the problem.

00:26:04.180 It's urgent.

00:26:05.520 And we need men to fix that, to handle that.

00:26:08.320 So they also determine not only the qualifications, but their duties.

00:26:11.540 Do you agree with those four things that the apostles are determining?

00:26:17.200 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:18.060 Anything you would add?

00:26:19.200 I would add that one of the things that's implicit in that is that because all of those

00:26:24.660 factors are being determined by the apostolic authority, that implies that the diaconate

00:26:30.640 has some level of authority in itself.

00:26:32.620 And so within the task set before them, they have the authority to make decisions. They have agency. And of course, it's under the oversight of the elders. They don't surpass the elders in any regard. But they do have in the church their own authority. And so you can think of them as a sort of lesser magistrate of church government within the scope that the apostles or today, the pastors and elders of a church have set before them.

00:27:01.100 Amen. Yeah, less authority than the elders, but absolutely the office carries authority. It is

00:27:06.940 not an authority-less office. No office of leadership without authority exists in the

00:27:14.880 civil realm or the ecclesiastical realm or the familial realm with the home. God always binds

00:27:21.580 both responsibility and rights, privileges, authority together. It's a package deal,

00:27:28.360 two peas in a pot god never gives um certain duties without giving the corresponding authority

00:27:34.660 so like a police officer it's not just serve and protect right that's they exist to serve and

00:27:39.240 protect but they're also consequently given a badge and a gun you don't just throw them out

00:27:44.080 there or you shouldn't maybe a democrat would probably do it but um no sane person but i repeat

00:27:49.680 myself no non-democrat would ever you know uh have a police force and commission them to go

00:27:55.500 and clean up the streets, you know, but not give them a gun, not give them a weapon. And so,

00:28:01.060 so you're giving, it's always giving power, authority, authority is power. It's always

00:28:06.660 teaming up power and duty, authority and responsibility always together. The deacon

00:28:13.480 has responsibilities and therefore he does have a certain degree of ecclesiastical power

00:28:19.260 or authority to carry, to carry those things out. It is not an authority less office.

00:28:25.500 Yeah. And if I can add, part of why this is important to the broader conversation, even though it sounds a little more tangential, is because that means that the deacon doesn't have to listen to the members of the church for his marching orders.

00:28:39.740 You know, if a member of the church comes up to the deacon and says, hey, we really need to fix this. It may be true, but the deacon knows his business.

00:28:46.660 And so he can say, thanks for letting me know, no, for whatever reason. And so when we miss that, and we think that that's actually bad, it means that we hate the way that God made the world. Because what we're effectively saying is that this person who within the hierarchy of the church is above me, actually should be beneath me.

00:29:07.240 And so if you take that to the civil realm, you run into something like this. I heard that this was going on in Nashville, Tennessee, or Memphis, Tennessee. The cops there have a no-pursuit law. So if you run a red light and the cop sees you, he cannot chase you.

00:29:24.000 Um, what that is, is a fruit of a leftist hating the way that God made the world.

00:29:31.340 They hate hierarchy. 0.92

00:29:32.820 And so they create these flaccid and useless offices in the, in those Memphis police officers 0.60

00:29:38.240 that have the title, they have the gun and the badge, but by law, they actually can't

00:29:42.740 do their job.

00:29:43.700 And it leads to anarchy.

00:29:45.140 You would have the same thing in the church, uh, but you would also have the same thing

00:29:48.880 in the political sphere.

00:29:49.960 if we got so swept up in democracy that we actually started to believe that I was the one

00:29:56.040 who has authority over my city councilor. No, my district city councilor has authority over me.

00:30:02.260 And him being a servant leader looks like him authoritatively leading me in a beneficent and

00:30:09.300 godly way. That's the ticket, servant leader. I was going to say, one last example to paint,

00:30:15.220 that you know to show this principle this bad principle of authority less leadership um you

00:30:22.340 know to to show uh its danger and how pernicious it is we can you know we've talked about the

00:30:27.220 civil sphere we've talked about the ecclesiastical sphere so civil magistrates deacons uh but one

00:30:32.060 last example and servant leadership is nailing it right on the head would be in the the realm of

00:30:37.020 the family um to say that the husband has duties and responsibilities to provide and protect but

00:30:43.160 that he doesn't have authority, right?

00:30:44.920 When the servant, servant leadership is fine.

00:30:47.640 The problem though, is that often in the minds

00:30:50.020 of evangelicals who 98% of them are feminist.

00:30:54.140 And that's just, you just have to know what time it is.

00:30:56.580 That's where we are today.

00:30:58.300 Evangelicals, 98% of them would be horrified

00:31:00.700 if they read, you know, Zach Garris's book, you know. 1.00

00:31:03.240 And a lot of them don't even know it.

00:31:04.640 No, they don't know it, right.

00:31:05.620 It's like a fish swimming in water, you know,

00:31:07.540 and passes another fish and says,

00:31:08.840 hey, the water sure is nice today.

00:31:10.080 And that fish says, what's water? 1.00

00:31:11.580 Well, so it is with feminism. 1.00

00:31:12.720 what's feminism like you don't you don't even you're so you've been so um indoctrinated and 1.00

00:31:18.940 inculcated into feminism that you you don't even realize that you're a feminist um and probably

00:31:24.820 one of the best ways of realizing you're a feminist is read anybody ever christian or not 0.54

00:31:30.100 before 1945 and see how much you're offended if you're offended then you're a feminist if you're

00:31:35.880 a lot then you're an extreme feminist and so um ali best ducky's hardest hit you know so yeah i

00:31:42.380 mean she is a feminist absolutely so anyways all that being said um compliment i heard somebody

00:31:48.620 the other day they said patriarchy is the view that says um uh that believes in male leadership

00:31:54.500 um feminism is the view that believes in female leadership and complementarianism is the view

00:32:01.360 that believes that men should lead in all the ways that their wives tell them they're allowed to

00:32:04.920 yeah that's really classic that's so true it's funny because it's true um yeah and it

00:32:12.260 It is true. We were actually talking about this last night at our church's book club. We get

00:32:16.900 together every couple of weeks and we were asking the question, what is a good definition of servant

00:32:23.660 leadership in the home? And the answer that we arrived at was me being a servant leader is me

00:32:30.240 telling my wife to wear a head covering and her submitting. That's me being a servant leader

00:32:35.980 because it's me taking the responsibility that God's given me for her spiritual well-being,

00:32:40.020 which by the way, makes me fear and tremble. And because I'll have to give an answer for that

00:32:44.480 and say, well, you know what I'm going to do is take this seriously. And that means that I say

00:32:49.000 what to do. Amen. The servant leader, husband, he absolutely can relieve his wife as a pinch

00:32:53.920 hitter. If it's 8.30 PM and the kids just got down and you've got four kids under the age of five

00:32:59.000 and she's exhausted and had a very difficult day because she's pregnant with your fifth child.

00:33:04.740 And he can come in as a pinch hitter and say, you know what, go ahead and lie down

00:33:08.380 on the couch, read a book, and I'm going to finish up the dishes. That's great. That's

00:33:12.500 actually, because my wife is pregnant in the morning. There you go. And so that's a normal 0.98

00:33:20.040 occurrence. And any husband who would say, there's never a case where I would do that,

00:33:24.080 I think is not loving his bride as Christ loves the church. So that's a part of servant leadership.

00:33:28.820 The problem is not that we're proposing a servant leadership that precludes that. We're simply

00:33:34.720 trying to get back to true servant leadership that is not exclusive to that. Most guys today

00:33:41.520 who talk about servant leadership, that's all it is. And so the problem is that there's two words

00:33:45.560 there, servant leadership. The servant word eclipses the leadership word. So it's not servant

00:33:50.600 leadership. They're actually, the servant eradicates the leadership. So there is no leadership. There's

00:33:54.980 just serving. The easiest way to express it is like this. The question is most servant leadership

00:34:01.920 guys, AKA complementarians, AKA actually feminists. Most of, of these guys, what they'll

00:34:08.600 say is servant leadership means that a husband leads by serving. And I would say that's precisely

00:34:14.860 opposite. Um, you know, servant leadership means that the husband's leadership is a service. So if

00:34:21.740 you have a, a general, um, the general does not practice servant leadership by going and, and,

00:34:27.760 and, you know, mopping, you know, the bunks and quarters, you know, of all the, you know,

00:34:35.700 all the soldiers. That actually is a detriment. That's actually not loving them because somebody

00:34:41.980 needs to be, he needs to be spending all of his time, all his waking hours and staying up late

00:34:47.860 into the night. Like there was a movie with Tom Hanks. I forget what it was called. I think it's

00:34:52.080 called like the good shepherd or something like that, but he's like basically like a captain over

00:34:55.900 this entire, um, and he's a Christian in the movie. Um, and it's based off of a true story,

00:35:00.420 but he's like a captain of this warship, uh, a battleship. And, uh, and it shows him like he,

00:35:06.120 he's not, uh, he's foregoing food. He doesn't have time to eat. He doesn't sleep. He's awake

00:35:10.600 for like three days straight, all this kind of, and the whole time he is, you know, he is, uh,

00:35:15.420 he's not asking like, Hey, can I do something for you? You know, what do you think? Like he's

00:35:19.260 barking orders the whole time. Um, so he is giving commands. He's giving orders. He's exercising

00:35:25.240 authority, but he is absolutely spending himself. As Christ gives himself up for the church, he is

00:35:31.140 giving himself up for his crew, and it is only because he's awake for 72 hours straight, doesn't

00:35:38.160 even pause for 15 minutes to eat a meal, and is constantly working and thinking, all from a place

00:35:44.040 of authority and giving commands and giving orders, but he saves the ship. He saves, you know, like

00:35:50.100 over a thousand lives are saved because of him. And all the men recognize it. And the, and the

00:35:54.740 title is the good shepherd. Like, I love it. And it's like, he, like he was, and he's praying

00:36:00.020 through the Psalms, any moment that he gets, you know, in between giving an order of that, like,

00:36:04.020 it's just, it's awesome. It's actually, you know, really great film. And so,

00:36:08.100 but my point is that's servant leadership. His leadership is his service. So it's not, I lead

00:36:14.480 by, by just washing the dishes. I can do that. And at times I should do that. And that's great.

00:36:20.100 But it's not that I lead by serving.

00:36:23.520 No, it's that my leadership is a service.

00:36:27.140 I serve by leading because that's my role. 0.73

00:36:31.300 My wife serves in her role of submission.

00:36:35.480 And my children, they serve our family

00:36:39.040 according to their aptitude at various ages

00:36:42.580 and development by their obedience

00:36:45.060 and performing certain chores

00:36:47.000 and being involved in the household

00:36:48.840 and the household's production,

00:36:50.840 overall production and these kinds of things.

00:36:52.860 Everybody is serving based off of their office,

00:36:55.820 based off of their capability.

00:36:58.060 My serving is through direction and leadership

00:37:02.320 and through commands at times,

00:37:05.180 given in love, but given with real authority.

00:37:07.920 You must obey this command.

00:37:10.120 And so anyway, so I am leading.

00:37:12.900 I am not leading by serving.

00:37:14.720 I am serving by leading.

00:37:15.660 So all that back to the deaconate.

00:37:17.180 the deaconate same kind of thing you know deacon means you know it's servant but people think that

00:37:22.660 that just means powerless servant leadership less servant authority less servant and that is not

00:37:29.840 true now back to the civil realm and and abolition and these kinds of things the the point is that

00:37:37.080 that as it pertained to deuteronomy 18 and moses with israel i think it's a similar similar

00:37:43.280 principle there that you have later on in Acts chapter 6 with the seven deacons and the apostles

00:37:49.320 in Jerusalem. In both instances, it's actually the exact opposite in many ways from our current

00:38:00.640 system. And here's the thing, as you seek to be a Christian, we don't have the luxury. This gets

00:38:06.440 into, okay, so you've left the realm of pragmatism. Great. Pat yourself on the back. I know you feel

00:38:11.840 really proud of that uh but you've you've entered into the realm of idealism we don't need ideologues 0.99

00:38:18.860 we don't need um principled losers beautiful losers in our american system so the christian

00:38:25.760 doesn't have the luxury of doing theology in a vacuum we are called to be as faithful as we can 0.96

00:38:30.380 in the times that we were given straight up give give us the gandalf line right what's the gandalf

00:38:35.780 man, what does he say? No one wishes for such times, but yeah, it's just all we have to decide

00:38:43.780 is what to do with the times that we've been given. Amen. Amen. We don't get to determine

00:38:47.500 the times. So we don't get to decide the context. What we get to decide is being as faithful as we

00:38:53.360 possibly can as Christians within a given context. So it's not, the good is often slaughtered

00:39:03.640 by the ideal. The ideal, you know, it's like how in the world can conservatives and Christians so

00:39:10.720 often, you know, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Well, that's actually not all the time

00:39:17.900 accomplished by pragmatism. Very often that's actually accomplished on the other side of the

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00:41:21.600 we have we have so much capacity for this in every other realm except the political so often

00:41:32.880 when you get married your marriage is an infant it's a toddler and so you have to nurse it and

00:41:39.600 nurture it and you're more patient and there's flaws but you're like yeah but we're working

00:41:43.480 towards better um not compromising but also realizing that sometimes people just screw it up

00:41:50.280 And so being gracious and not being willing to just say, well, this covenant doesn't matter because you didn't submit to me that one time. No, that would be ridiculous. We do this with our children. We do this with our churches. But somehow, when we get to the political sphere, we can tend to lose that charity, that understanding of how the world works, which is through time.

00:42:13.860 I like to say that providence is perfect beauty worked out in imperfect time. You're in imperfect

00:42:20.660 time and you have to figure out how to be faithful there. And oftentimes that's going to look like

00:42:26.380 patience, being patient. And so part of the point that we have to, and we're starting to get a

00:42:32.780 little bit more to the actual point of where we might disagree with some of our abolitionist

00:42:37.860 brothers is that you have to be willing to hold in your mind a lot of different priorities and

00:42:44.760 things in the political sphere allow me to give one example um i don't want a civil war over

00:42:52.600 abortion because i have kids and i don't want them to die in a civil war my responsibility i've said

00:43:00.040 several times ben i think you're gonna love this i've said several times that part of natural

00:43:03.880 affections, which is good, right, and biblical. Part of natural affections, what that imposes on

00:43:09.860 me as a husband and father is that this is, you know, this is shocking for, you know, a lot of

00:43:15.580 reformed, you know, otherwise great Christian men and women. But I think this is absolutely

00:43:21.820 biblical and right. Crazy thing here. I love my children more than I love the unborn children

00:43:29.320 of others i love my children more than the so if i have two choices and they're both uh gonna

00:43:36.100 murder babies right like i'm not sitting here saying oh you know trump is uh you know the

00:43:41.000 campaign he's currently running and the positions that he's currently espousing are um really pro

00:43:46.500 life no of course they're not i know that i know that um and and i also understand that

00:43:53.120 pragmatically uh this is an argument the abolitionists in a pragmatic sense they're

00:43:58.440 saying, well, when it comes to abortion pills, you know, and these kinds of things that at the

00:44:03.300 end of the day, the numbers don't go down. In fact, you can make an argument from statistics

00:44:06.660 and this, that, you know, blah, blah, blah, that actually the numbers have actually gone up

00:44:10.440 overall. And so Donald Trump in a pragmatic sense, in terms of raw statistics, even the ways that he

00:44:17.700 is more pro-life than Biden, which isn't much, even in those ways that he is more pro-life than

00:44:22.300 Biden, his policies and his campaign, his platform will not actually save any more babies.

00:44:28.440 If anything, it might make it might make pregnant mothers even more vigilant to to get abortion sooner or to or to make pills more more accessible from pharmaceutical companies and easier to mail in and to order and all these kinds of things.

00:44:44.720 And so I totally get that. But here's the deal. This is what you can't say. 0.98

00:44:49.200 So I'm not sitting here saying I'm going to vote for Trump because he's significantly more pro-life than Biden.

00:44:54.920 That's not my argument.

00:44:56.300 My argument is that he's not worse on the issue of life than Biden.

00:45:00.400 I think I can certainly establish that.

00:45:02.460 He's not worse.

00:45:03.440 So my position is he's not significantly better.

00:45:06.000 I'm not saying that, but I can definitively say he's not worse.

00:45:09.500 So now what am I able to do?

00:45:11.160 I'm able to say, we're not in a primary.

00:45:13.420 We're in a general election.

00:45:15.540 I only have two options.

00:45:17.140 We don't get a veto.

00:45:18.340 We can't say either one.

00:45:20.100 We're not the apostles.

00:45:21.140 We're not Moses.

00:45:22.300 Exactly.

00:45:22.440 right so um and so i i don't get a veto and it's going to be one one of these two guys um and and

00:45:29.900 trump is better on life but but i understand for all intents and purposes it's not much if any in

00:45:35.340 terms of how it plays out in terms of actual numbers of babies being murdered in a year i get

00:45:39.000 that so let's just say let's and this isn't even true but i'll i'll i'll steal man as much as

00:45:44.160 possible let's just say they're equal on on the life issue uh aka they're terrible on uh on the

00:45:49.780 life issue uh they're monsters they're equally evil let's let's just say that and that's not

00:45:54.600 even true but let's just say that that was true um great we've established that um now is there

00:46:00.760 any other pertinent issue under the sun in this temporal world in which we live besides abortion

00:46:08.440 i'll give you one uh and i and i care a lot about this immigration immigration i because of because

00:46:15.680 I agree with what you said. I care more about my children than any other children in the world,

00:46:20.620 period. They are mine. They're my responsibility. I care more about them. I love them more than

00:46:26.120 anyone else in the world, apart from my own wife. Um, and the threat of immigration to my kids 1.00

00:46:33.600 is so incredibly great that I want to do everything I can to stop it. 1.00

00:46:38.640 Amen. And you live in, in Mormontown in Utah. Um, I, I live in a border state in Texas,

00:46:45.560 Well, our city just became a sanctuary city, which I know is the same, but you still live.

00:46:50.480 That's a big deal. 0.75

00:46:51.340 No.

00:46:51.660 Yeah. 0.79

00:46:52.680 And so anything, anything that I can do to say less illegal immigrants, less military

00:46:58.040 aged men, I'm about to have my first daughter.

00:47:00.540 Right.

00:47:00.840 I don't want her to grow up in a world where she looks around and she just sees threats.

00:47:06.160 Amen.

00:47:06.560 I don't want that.

00:47:07.640 I have four daughters now.

00:47:09.640 And so.

00:47:10.200 Yeah.

00:47:10.640 You're doddered up.

00:47:11.420 Yeah. So I have four daughters now and a wife. Yeah. And so if I have any say at all to lower the statistical likelihood of my wife and daughters being raped and murdered, I'm going to use my vote to do precisely that.

00:47:28.240 To increase their safety and lower the likelihood of atrocities being committed against them, a.k.a. build a wall. A.k.a. build a wall.

00:47:38.060 and to be, to, to, to be really charitable. Like I want to make clear what I'm not saying is that

00:47:43.560 if a Christian doesn't vote for Trump, it's the equivalent, it's the moral equivalent of voting

00:47:47.200 for Biden. It's not right. Voting for Biden would be sinful. Uh, not voting is not sinful, 0.84

00:47:52.360 but I think it's foolish. Yes. Amen. Those are good categories. And it's, and it's unhelpful.

00:47:58.040 Um, and so I would, I would exhort my, my friends, um, to, to just think like,

00:48:03.560 okay the life thing yeah it's really ugly everybody hates it moving on we'll address

00:48:09.360 that when we can we'll keep addressing it at a local level right like dogs we won't let them

00:48:13.920 sleep you know and we'll keep bills with primaries with local elections with dusty deavers with all

00:48:19.140 that with our preaching with our evangelizing at every level like it says in isaiah we won't give

00:48:24.240 the lord rest we will pray and pray and pray and precatory psalms and uh and and all that yes we

00:48:31.000 don't stop doing any of that but you also have to think like there is another thing that exists

00:48:36.620 uh there are other things that exist and one of the big ones one of the most easy ones to to

00:48:41.380 conceptualize of of its importance is immigration right and if biden wins my kids are going to be

00:48:47.020 threatened and i don't threatened more than if trump we will likely if biden wins we will likely

00:48:52.400 have another 20 million immigrants and most of them illegal some of them uh legal um virtually

00:48:59.600 none of them citizens. So even the legal ones would be work visas, student visas, eventually 0.81

00:49:04.480 maybe green cards, things like that. So you're talking about 20 more. We have 330 million total

00:49:09.240 population. We've already got anywhere from nine to 20 million just in his first term. We will

00:49:13.880 likely get that, if not more, in a second term if we have Biden for four more years, or he won't

00:49:20.420 live for four more years, but Harris or whatever it ends up being. And here's the other thing.

00:49:26.400 So one, the protection, natural affection is the protection of our own, speaking primarily

00:49:30.780 of our families, our wives, our children.

00:49:34.380 Second thing to consider, back to abortion and protecting the unborn child, how does

00:49:40.920 it, how is it, help me with this, Ben, how is it to our advantage as abolitionists that

00:49:46.100 want to see abortion eradicated from the face of the earth, starting first with our state,

00:49:50.700 our state and then our country here as these United States of America, how does it help 0.56

00:49:56.160 us to import 20 million more pro-abortion voters right yeah and that is a big deal because they

00:50:03.320 the people who are coming i mean it's a landslide yep it's it is a lance it's over 80 percent of the

00:50:10.480 people who are immigrating in vote for democrats and not even because they're necessarily pro-abortion

00:50:15.340 i'm not even saying that all these uh uh immigrants are pro-abortion what i am saying who let you in

00:50:21.620 the house right but what i am exactly exactly what i'm saying is i'm not saying they're pro-abortion

00:50:26.720 but i'm saying democrats are and they'll vote for democrats who will who will see to it that we have

00:50:31.980 more abortion um and they'll vote for him not because of abortion abortion but despite abortion

00:50:36.520 because the one thing that democrats do that these immigrants want is uh that the immigrants uh are

00:50:42.240 are were let in the house by democrats and so they want democrats to maintain power so that they'll

00:50:47.220 let their friends and family also in the house in years to come. Of course, this is basic logic

00:50:52.020 bared up by statistics. It's abundantly clear. And so even at the pro-life issue, so one,

00:50:57.920 immigration. So we're saying Donald Trump is better on life. It's not by much. And in terms

00:51:02.080 of real statistics and all those kinds of babies murdered, it not only may be negligible, but there

00:51:08.720 may be no difference, discernible difference at all. So I'm conceding all that as absolutely

00:51:13.880 reasonable arguments to be made by my abolitionist brothers and sisters. But then what I want to say

00:51:18.540 is, okay, so we've established that. Let's now pan out to other issues. Immigration matters for

00:51:22.940 our own wives and children. So not just caring about the unborn children of others, but caring

00:51:27.380 about the born children of ourselves, that we have a moral duty under God to care for first.

00:51:32.880 And then ironically, in the providence of God, because God doesn't pit us, you know, one good

00:51:38.120 thing against another, God usually makes things fairly clear. The beauty is that by protecting

00:51:42.320 our own against, uh, uh, immigration at the level of, of an invasion, uh, that also helps on the 0.56

00:51:48.340 life issue because it helps on not importing 20 million more Democrat voters. Right. But having

00:51:54.520 natural progeny that love the land that they're born in, that have pride in it and that are

00:52:00.040 Christians. Amen. And so grow and be wise. And heritage America, just for the record,

00:52:05.320 it doesn't mean a mono color, but it does mean a mono culture. We should have one. It is not

00:52:11.080 diversity is not our strength, especially insofar as we're talking about diversity of religion,

00:52:16.860 worship, culture, thought, that is not our strength. If we have different colors of people, 0.99

00:52:22.040 when we talk about heritage America, that's what we want to get back to. Heritage America,

00:52:26.160 it was predominantly Anglo-European white, predominantly, but not exclusively. There

00:52:31.620 are black people in the country that can trace back their ancestry further than I can,

00:52:36.160 that are a part of heritage America, not the first generation Nigerian immigrant,

00:52:41.080 but black people who have been here in their family line for 400 years. That's a part of

00:52:45.640 Heritage America. That's what we want is we don't want an ethnic cleansing. We don't want a mono

00:52:50.900 white people, mono color, but we do want mono culture. And what culture is that? Well, it's 0.96

00:52:57.500 the culture of Heritage America, which was predominantly not only Christian, but it was

00:53:03.520 also Protestant. We want a pan-Protestant monoculture of heritage America, which does

00:53:10.400 include at the level of ethnicity, other shades of skin pigment. That's perfectly fine. 0.99

00:53:17.560 But that's what we want. We want that because it's true to our fathers. It's part of the

00:53:22.460 fifth commandment and honoring our fathers. It also happens to be, it's not just, we like this

00:53:27.160 culture better because it's ours. No, it's not just that. We like this culture, an Anglo-Protestant

00:53:33.680 culture that can have non-Anglos in it, like Clarence Thomas is Anglo-Protestant for all

00:53:38.600 intents and purposes. He's been shaped and forged by that culture, although he's a black man. Praise

00:53:43.060 God for him. Glad he's on the team. But this Anglo-Protestant culture is the monoculture that

00:53:47.800 we want, and we want it not just because it's our heritage and it's honoring our fathers and 0.97

00:53:53.080 obedience to the fifth commandment um it's not just because it's ours it's also because it's

00:53:57.220 better um right not all cultures are equal uh anglo-protestant culture is superior what you 0.81

00:54:03.720 think that your culture is superior to yes yes i think it's superior to indian culture

00:54:09.340 causes the constituent parts of that culture to flourish more than hinduism amen of course 0.95

00:54:17.000 all of them it just is better i'm a christian and i think that christianity is better than

00:54:22.780 false religions crazy yeah i actually think i didn't only think that i think that they're 0.98

00:54:28.060 horrible and like piles of garbage hot garbage on fire one of the things i was gonna say when you 0.98

00:54:33.340 say they're just for the record real quick you're talking about there being the other religions 0.97

00:54:37.720 other worldviews not the people the people created in the image of god we pray for their salvation 0.99

00:54:42.060 repentance yep but those cultures are terrible the thing shaping them is a pile of hot garbage 1.00

00:54:48.400 that's on fire. And the worldview will burn in hell. To steal a turn of phrase from Stephen 1.00

00:54:55.420 Wolfe, it is worth recognizing. And I know that I want to belabor the point because I want to show

00:55:00.480 the points of agreement. Abortion is a civilization level threat, like feminism. Abortion 1.00

00:55:06.100 is absolutely a thing that threatens to end society in a particularly vile way, because not

00:55:12.580 only does it kill its own people, which it does, but it also brings down heavy judgment from God

00:55:19.920 onto a place. It does all those things. It's a civilization level threat. But there are other

00:55:25.560 civilization level threats. That's part of the point I'm trying to make. And one of them is this

00:55:29.920 immigration thing. And so as we're trying to work through how we balance these principles,

00:55:34.760 first of all, stay true to your principles and don't sin against your conscience.

00:55:38.300 But also ask yourself, okay, let's say Trump was actually really good on the life issue, except he allowed the birth control pill, which virtually everyone would not bat an eye at. But those who know, know that the birth control pill is an abortifacent.

00:55:54.380 Yes. So would that still demand that you don't vote for him? Like where along the line of explicit approval of abortion to implicit approval of abortion through a birth control pill? Do you say, okay, he can get my vote? I would encourage people to think through that question because if you do and you say, well, he would just never get my vote. Only someone that thinks just like me would get my vote.

00:56:21.060 then I think you are running the risk of being an ideologue. And ideologues are unhelpful

00:56:25.800 politically. Amen. Even at your local level, if you start to take that mindset into local

00:56:30.080 elections, it will be actively adversarial to the end that you're trying to achieve.

00:56:36.000 So I would just. Yep. No, that's good. So to get back to what we were saying earlier,

00:56:39.640 you said, Ben, that, um, that you believe that, uh, number one, it is not morally equivalent,

00:56:45.320 to not vote at all or to vote third party versus voting for biden so we would say voting for biden

00:56:52.660 would be a sin um yes and and and here's the thing just to clear that up because i you know

00:56:57.540 to play the devil's advocate they would say why why is it a sin to vote for a democrat because

00:57:01.700 it's always been said that the reason why it's a sin to vote for a democrat is because they're

00:57:05.720 pro-abortion but if the republican you know counterpart is for all intents and purposes

00:57:10.960 pro-abortion also, then why is it not a sin to vote for him? And I would say, well, I'm glad you

00:57:14.940 asked that. That's something that needs to be cleaned up, just like the pragmatism thing

00:57:18.360 earlier. Pragmatism is bad as it pertains to the regular principle of worship on the Lord's day

00:57:22.240 and clear prescriptions in scripture for worshiping in spirit and in truth, not according to the

00:57:27.100 inventions or devices or preferences of men, but what God has written down in holy writ. Pragmatism

00:57:33.040 in that category is sinful. It's not just less than ideal, it's actually sinful and wrong. However,

00:57:39.140 we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater pragmatism in every sphere of human life is not

00:57:43.460 inherently evil it is good to be pragmatic and shrewd and strategic and other realms including

00:57:49.460 especially politics so that's something needs to be cleared up well here's another one that needs

00:57:53.900 to be cleared up because if you're saying it's a sin to vote for democrats because they're pro

00:57:57.860 abortion we do need to add some clarifications to that it's a sin to vote for biden in this

00:58:04.520 upcoming 2024 federal election because he's the most evil and unjust candidate yes so so it's a

00:58:13.620 sin to vote for the worst uh it is a sin to use your vote to help ensure that the most evil possible

00:58:21.180 actually occurs yeah because here's that that's a sin right like you're not voting you're not

00:58:27.320 when you cast a vote in a federal election especially you're not saying my vote is an

00:58:32.300 is an explicit approval of everything about that particular candidate right what you're saying is

00:58:37.200 my vote is an expression that says i want this place to look more like he wants it to look

00:58:41.640 and biden is worse right it is less it is less beautiful and good and true and it's a sin to

00:58:49.880 vote for the worst candidate the the thing like to vote for him would be like you know someone to

00:58:55.600 someone breaking into your house and they say hey i can either kill you with a gun or i can just 0.97

00:59:01.720 threaten you with a knife and you say, I'll take the gun, please. Both are bad, but the gun is 0.98

00:59:07.060 really stupid. You'd be an idiot to do that. Right. Yep. Amen. And if there is a wife and 1.00

00:59:14.180 kids in the house, and so you're not just jeopardizing your own life, but also the life 0.99

00:59:17.140 of your family, then not only are you foolish, but you're actually in sin. That choice is so 0.99

00:59:21.740 foolish and so harmful to others, not only yourself, that you're actually sinning against 0.99

00:59:25.220 those that you have been commissioned by God to love and cherish and protect. 0.99

00:59:29.280 So all that being said,

00:59:30.360 that's why it's a sin to vote for Biden

00:59:31.980 because he is the worst option

00:59:34.340 who will do the most damage,

00:59:35.940 the most harm, the most injustice,

00:59:37.740 bring about the most judgment of God upon our nation.

00:59:40.960 It is a sin to vote for Biden because of those reasons.

00:59:46.220 So all that being said,

00:59:48.660 earlier you were giving categories and saying like,

00:59:51.220 you know, it's a sin to vote for Biden,

00:59:52.840 but it's permissible not to vote or to vote third party.

00:59:56.920 And I just wanted to clarify that and say,

00:59:58.120 I agree with you.

00:59:58.880 and you said, I don't think it's a sin

01:00:01.700 for some of our abolitionist brothers and sisters

01:00:03.960 who are, I can't vote.

01:00:05.260 My conscience won't allow me to vote for Trump.

01:00:07.100 We would say, we don't think you're in sin,

01:00:09.200 but we think you're being less than true.

01:00:11.240 So we disagree with your decision,

01:00:13.360 but we're not going to accuse you

01:00:15.600 of clearly sinning against the word of God.

01:00:19.040 So we think that that is a permissible option.

01:00:21.700 So voting for Biden is not permissible.

01:00:23.260 That is sin. 0.98

01:00:23.940 It's not only foolish, it's sin.

01:00:25.980 Voting third party or not voting at all, 0.94

01:00:29.820 we would say is not sin,

01:00:32.120 but we do think that it is lesson wise

01:00:34.740 and that it's not a good decision,

01:00:37.320 but it's also not a sinful decision.

01:00:40.140 And then lastly, we think voting for Trump

01:00:41.880 is also not sin, it's permissible.

01:00:44.580 And we think in this,

01:00:45.960 because again, back to what I was saying earlier,

01:00:48.280 we don't get to do the Christian life in a vacuum.

01:00:51.200 We have the times that we were given.

01:00:53.000 And so we're striving to be as faithful as we can in the context that we currently have.

01:00:57.460 And so we would say voting for Trump, not only is it not sin, but we think that in this

01:01:01.740 scenario, it is the best option before us.

01:01:04.180 And so we think it's not only by voting for Trump, are you avoiding a sinful decision,

01:01:10.580 but you're also making, in this particular case, the wisest decision that you possibly

01:01:14.820 can, given the set of circumstances.

01:01:16.800 And then all that back to the whole, we don't live the Christian life in a vacuum, but we

01:01:21.580 live in a certain place in a certain time with certain circumstances, all that, as it pertains

01:01:26.300 to Acts chapter six with the seven deacons and the apostles, you know, the church in Jerusalem

01:01:32.020 and Deuteronomy 18 with Israel and Moses. Here's my point with the circumstances, we don't, we

01:01:38.460 don't get to do the Christian life in a vacuum. The circumstances that we have, I started to say

01:01:42.120 this earlier and I want to come back and finish it. It's precisely the opposite with Moses and

01:01:47.700 also with Jerusalem, the people. So the congregation of the church of Jerusalem or the, you know, 0.91

01:01:52.140 the nation of Israel, it's the apostles and Moses who are saying this, when do we need these guys?

01:02:01.020 Now, how many guys do we need? This many, seven in the case of the deacons, you know, the church

01:02:05.440 in Jerusalem or in Israel, if they had, you know, whatever, let's say they had a million, you know,

01:02:09.620 population at the time. If that's the case, then, you know, we need guys over tens, fifties,

01:02:13.860 hundreds, and thousands. So that's going to get us, you know, this many people, you know,

01:02:16.480 100,000, you know, over, you know, to be over the tens and then some more to be over 50s and

01:02:20.500 hundreds and thousands. So when do we need them now? How many do we need X amount? And then what

01:02:25.280 are the qualifications for the guys? These are the qualifications. And then also what is the task

01:02:29.020 of the guys? This is the task. Moses can't, you know, Jethro, his father-in-law gives him this

01:02:33.880 counsel. It's from the Lord providentially. It's good counsel. You can't be mediating every single

01:02:38.900 conflict in all of Israel. You need other guys who could exercise wisdom and judgment to mediate

01:02:44.020 the lesser cases and the greatest cases they come to you, kind of like our court system,

01:02:47.900 you know, in the Supreme Court and these kinds of things. It's a good system. Here's the deal,

01:02:51.080 though. The people are ultimate. It's the people who are selecting the men who are going to be

01:02:57.520 leaders over tens and fifties and hundreds and thousands. And then they're going to bring them

01:03:01.240 to Moses. This is implicit. What's explicit in the text is the qualifications, the number of

01:03:07.540 people needed for this particular office, the task of what they're going to perform. That's

01:03:12.500 explicit in the text. But I think implicitly, almost a necessary inference, maybe not that

01:03:19.380 strong, but implicitly what we have is that the people, Moses is not going to find a hundred

01:03:24.940 thousand people. He'd spend the rest of his life. The irony is so thick there because the whole

01:03:31.280 counsel is, Moses, you can't do all this as one guy. You need to delegate power. You need to

01:03:37.500 designate other leaders to help you with the task of ruling over Israel. Moses, there's not enough 0.96

01:03:41.860 time in the day for you as one man to make all these decisions. So Moses, you just need to make

01:03:47.580 one decision. You need to decide a hundred thousand times, right? Guys over 10, there's a million

01:03:53.280 people in Israel, give or take. Well, that's silly. You don't have time, Moses. So I need 0.94

01:03:58.700 to spend even more time identifying a hundred thousand dudes to be leaders, to free up your 0.99

01:04:03.780 time. That makes no sense. So I think implicitly, my point is implicitly in the same way that the

01:04:09.240 church, the apostles aren't selecting the seven men who will be deacons, but they are saying the

01:04:13.340 timing, the number, the qualifications, and the task. Likewise, Moses is saying the timing, the

01:04:18.780 number, the qualifications, and the task, but then it's the church, the congregation in Jerusalem

01:04:23.820 that goes and brings the men to the apostles, right? And I think it's the congregation in Israel

01:04:29.760 that selects the men. That is precisely, and we need to get this, okay? Because I'm a general

01:04:34.360 equity, you know, theonomy guy, but we need to understand that's precisely the opposite of our

01:04:39.260 current system here in America. That's the opposite. The regime selects the guy, and then

01:04:46.020 the people get to have the veto and vote between two guys when it comes to a, not primaries, but

01:04:52.720 when it gets to a general election, and certainly when it gets to a general federal presidential

01:04:57.740 election. By the time it gets there, and that's what we're debating right now, can a Christian

01:05:02.200 at this juncture, this far into the proceedings, can a Christian vote for Trump? That's what we're

01:05:09.020 talking about. That's the opposite of Deuteronomy 18. Deuteronomy 18 is Moses says, here's the

01:05:13.900 guidelines. Now you find me these guys, right? No, that's the opposite of what we have. We have

01:05:19.300 the regime, the oligarchy, in many ways, we're talking about corporations. We're talking about

01:05:23.640 money. We're talking about big pharma. We're talking about CEOs, and then we're talking about

01:05:28.760 slimy politicians and we're talking about this and that and above it's the regime that selects

01:05:34.120 the guys so this would be like the opposite this would be like instead of uh you bring me the 0.60

01:05:39.220 hundred thousand men who will be over tens in israel you being the congregation of israel the

01:05:44.040 people you bring me the guys and then you know and then i'll set them up in positions of leadership

01:05:49.460 in our current system it's we'll bring you the guys and they'll both be awful uh to be sure

01:05:55.940 we'll bring you the guys uh and then you just get to pick uh which so so to apply my point is to

01:06:02.000 apply a general equity system um and and i i'm a theonomist i you know i i would differ from some

01:06:09.300 of you know some of the i'm i'm not as insufferable as some of the you know the hardcore reconstruction

01:06:14.240 you know reconstructionist theonomist but but i am still i that's where at the end of the day i

01:06:18.820 would hang my hat is i would say you know general equity theonomy um but but you're you're seeking

01:06:24.060 to apply a general equity principle of deuteronomy 18 or acts chapter 7 or acts chapter 6 uh apply it

01:06:32.560 in a system that is precisely the opposite that is precisely backwards we don't get to uh you get

01:06:37.340 to do that to a degree um in the primaries right so the last thing i'll say is this is steve days

01:06:43.700 god bless him forever um i don't agree with him on everything but he's a friend i appreciate him

01:06:48.680 And Steve Dace, I think, modeled for us well this principle.

01:06:54.340 What Steve Dace did, living in the times that he's been given, recognizing I want to be

01:06:58.940 faithful to Scripture, but I also have to recognize what system I currently live in.

01:07:02.960 And so I'm not being faithful as an ideologue in a vacuum, but I'm being faithful tangibly,

01:07:08.000 practically, really, you might call that actual faithfulness, in the times and the context

01:07:13.480 that I, in God's providence, actually have been born into.

01:07:16.740 And so what does Steve Dace do?

01:07:18.120 uh in uh during the season heading towards the presidential election where the people got to

01:07:24.180 choose the candidates aka a primary uh what did he do he picked a better man to back than donald

01:07:30.960 trump yep that's what he did now that that's over and he gave it everything he had i mean

01:07:37.020 steve days you know for better or for worse you know he pushed desantis right and at times you

01:07:42.820 know it was a little bit insufferable and then you know but others but i saw what he was doing

01:07:46.360 and I appreciate it. That was a Christian instinct. That was a Christian instinct. And I 0.98

01:07:51.280 really, I love that about our brother in Christ, Steve Dace. And so he said, no, you know, I don't

01:07:57.800 hate Trump. I'm not a never Trumper. I, you know, I appreciate what God has used him to do, you know,

01:08:02.640 and appointing Supreme Court justices and overturning Roe and all these things. I don't

01:08:07.680 have, you know, I don't have a vendetta against Trump, but I do believe that DeSantis is a better

01:08:12.260 man. I think he's more moral. I think he has better policies. I think he's proven himself.

01:08:16.800 Trump was really good for his first three years, but his fourth year kind of sucked.

01:08:20.420 DeSantis, when Trump was folding on some things, he didn't fire Fauci. You know, he's bragging

01:08:24.600 about warp speed operation and, you know, vaccines to his own detriment against his base. I mean,

01:08:29.740 just, you know, really missing that thread, you know, but DeSantis did the opposite. You know,

01:08:34.400 he, you know, he opened up, you know, the state of Florida and blah, blah, blah, and, you know,

01:08:37.940 was against the mask, you know, and all this kind of stuff. I mean, he's saying DeSantis is a better

01:08:41.940 man, better policies, better action, better proof in the pudding in terms of how he's actually

01:08:47.600 legislated, how he's governed, and better morals. You know, he's not an adulterer, you know, as far

01:08:53.560 as we know, and these kinds of things. So DeSantis is a better man. I'm a Christian. Vote for DeSantis.

01:08:58.700 And he said, vote for DeSantis. Vote for DeSantis. And he said it again and again and again and again

01:09:02.780 for almost a year. And then we moved past, right, being faithful with the times we've been given,

01:09:07.520 then we moved past that time and then we were all of a sudden in in the next leg of the race

01:09:14.740 where it had been determined for us whether we like it or not uh that DeSantis will not be

01:09:20.020 president at least not now you've got two choices and the moment that happened Steve Day said all

01:09:25.480 right that's a bummer and I'm grieving over this loss I know you guys are bummed too all right so

01:09:30.660 get out there and vote for Trump yeah that is Christian that it's so simple it's really this

01:09:37.240 is not rocket science, rocket surgery. But it's so simple. But that, I love that. That is right.

01:09:44.260 So that was him in the Deuteronomy 18 in Acts chapter 6 phase, where the people actually get

01:09:49.880 to bring, according to the qualifications laid out by Moses or laid out by the apostles in the

01:09:54.360 church of Jerusalem, aka primaries in our American system, he said, let's bring men who actually fit

01:10:01.020 God's standard. Yes. Right? And then the second we move past that, and that's no longer an option,

01:10:07.240 And we, and we don't get to be ideologues doing theology in a vacuum, but we have to do it in a certain place in time within the providence and circumstances that God lays out. Then he said, okay, so now let's do the most possible righteousness we can with the circumstances that we've been given, AKA vote for Trump.

01:10:21.800 Yeah, there's four points that I'd want to make to reinforce that. One, really simple, the political realm is the realm of the possible, not the ideal. It's the realm of potential. And it's important to remember that you can't have the same level of idealism that you have, say, with a church officer that you do with a political leader.

01:10:43.900 He ought to be a moral man, an upright man, a statesman. But at the same time, you also have to realize that the political is the realm of the potential, the probable, the possible, not the certain, not the ideal, not the already proven case file of work.

01:11:00.640 The possible, not the perfect.

01:11:01.700 Yes, exactly. It's important to remember that too. It's important to see along the line of

01:11:07.000 American politics, where we switch from something that is more act six Deuteronomy 18 ish to

01:11:13.460 something that is the inverse. Uh, just like what you were saying, Joel, when you're at the local

01:11:18.160 level, you can lobby the, the single citizen guy can actually run and win. You know, he can run

01:11:24.680 for mayor and he can actually win. That's crazy. Uh, dusty Devers is an example of this. It's more

01:11:29.460 local level and you can lobby and push and you actually can present a man to the state,

01:11:35.120 the governing state, and then the state can give you a decision on that, whether yes or

01:11:39.660 no.

01:11:40.380 But then when we switch to more federal level, that changes and it does become the inverse.

01:11:46.460 And so if you try to, if you try to approach it in the same way that you approach the local

01:11:52.040 level, it's, you're going to run into brick wall after brick wall because it's different.

01:11:56.540 And one of the ways in which it's different, this is the third thing, is that in Deuteronomy 18 and then implicitly in Acts 6 as well, there could have been, and maybe was, we don't know, a scenario wherein the people presented a man and the apostles said, not him.

01:12:15.300 Yep. They have the power to say, no, you're going to have to just pick somebody else for whatever reason. Okay, we can't do that at the federal level. Unless it's this theoretical case in which for a presidential election, nobody votes. But even then, the Electoral College would probably still just pick somebody.

01:12:34.760 um we don't get a veto we don't have we don't say uh not him not him either you're gonna have

01:12:43.260 to just bring us two different candidates that's not an option right and so it it behooves us to

01:12:48.660 pick one whichever one is less bad and then the fourth thing because one of them will as surely

01:12:54.820 as the sun will rise tomorrow one of those two guys will be president in 20 yes 25 yes yes unless

01:13:02.400 the only choice we get we we had opportunities earlier yep in god's providence it didn't work

01:13:09.000 out he does all things well at this point we only have two choices um we don't have the third choice

01:13:16.000 of neither we only have two choices one of these guys will be president so then the question is

01:13:21.380 for our wives our children and our neighbors is one choice better than the other and if so

01:13:27.800 then the commandment to love our neighbors behooves us to vote for that guy who is not

01:13:33.520 quite as evil as the other. I was about to say the, the fourth point is the love your neighbor

01:13:40.040 aspect of this neighbor, including your, no, no, you're fine. Uh, it's really helpful. Your

01:13:44.960 neighboring, you know, your children at the top level, your, your wife and children, and then

01:13:49.220 the people that live right next to you. And then people further out, you know, proximity really

01:13:53.460 does bear on how you ought to prioritize which neighbors you love in which way amen but that

01:13:58.460 just for the record the good samaritan because people are well he was a samaritan they weren't

01:14:02.460 you know they weren't the same ethnicity or they weren't the same religion or they weren't you know

01:14:05.620 whatever nationality uh no no no that that is not only does that um does that not uh debunk um uh

01:14:13.720 the argument of of you know an order of affections uh rippling out a triage of neighbors um but it

01:14:21.460 actually reinforces it. The reason why it was imperative that the Samaritan helped that man

01:14:27.060 was because of his proximity. It wasn't proximity in the metaphorical light of being the same

01:14:33.300 skin pigment, you know, color or being the same nationality. It was the literal geographic

01:14:39.100 proximity. Why is the good Samaritan obligated to help this man who's bleeding out and dying?

01:14:45.940 Because he's there. He's right next to, he's literally in his proximity. He's right next to

01:14:50.860 Well, likewise, at a national level, there is an order of affection.

01:14:55.080 So it's like, well, love your neighbor.

01:14:56.220 Well, who's your neighbor?

01:14:57.600 Well, yeah, all mankind, all human beings created in the image of God, which is all human beings, are my neighbors.

01:15:04.800 We live in a particular family, the family of God.

01:15:08.000 Not everybody is my brother or sister.

01:15:09.660 That comes through faith in Christ.

01:15:11.920 But everyone is my neighbor.

01:15:14.120 We have a universal, God is a universal creator, and he has placed us in a universal neighborhood.

01:15:18.920 but he is a particular father and we have a particular family in terms of brothers and

01:15:22.900 sisters. So God is creator of all and everyone is my neighbor. And I'm called not just to love my

01:15:28.400 brother, but to love my neighbor. So that means everyone. Here's the problem though. We're not

01:15:32.340 talking about sin, the category of sin and fallenness. We're talking about the category

01:15:35.740 of creatureliness and finitude, not fallenness, but finitude. And in the realm of finitude,

01:15:41.160 because I am not God. So even if I'm perfectly sanctified, even in a hypothetical scenario where

01:15:47.120 I was perfectly sanctified.

01:15:48.420 Here's the deal.

01:15:49.240 When Jesus finished his earthly ministry

01:15:51.160 and ascended to heaven,

01:15:51.980 were there still sick people?

01:15:53.220 Well, Jesus failed to love his neighbor.

01:15:56.140 Yeah, I mean, he even said,

01:15:57.580 there were many widows in Israel at the time of Elijah, 0.99

01:16:00.740 but he just picked the one, right? 0.60

01:16:02.720 So the point is,

01:16:04.080 there's something to be said for finitude.

01:16:06.380 And in the case of Jesus, he's God and infinite,

01:16:09.440 but he is also the God man.

01:16:11.420 He took on flesh.

01:16:12.340 He could only be in one place at one time.

01:16:14.520 Those kinds of things.

01:16:15.340 That's what I'm talking about.

01:16:16.040 So in the realm of finitude, 0.99

01:16:17.120 And I, we're not talking about, oh, because you're sinister and you're selfish and you show favoritism and, you know, because of your fallenness, because you're a sinner. 0.97

01:16:24.560 No, no, no. 0.70

01:16:24.860 I'm talking even in a best case scenario, like, like, AKA Jesus, right? 0.93

01:16:29.620 Who was full of the Holy Spirit, impeccable, without sin, all these kinds of fulfilling all righteousness, even in the case of Jesus, he did, you know, Joseph Smith, you know, Mormon's hardest hit.

01:16:41.720 But Jesus, for instance, did not go over to the Americas and heal all the sick Indians and help them, you know, to kick their peyote, drug addiction.

01:16:52.780 Think of the Canaanite woman, you know, well, Lord, even the dogs eat the crumbs off the kids' table. 0.95

01:16:58.480 Right.

01:16:59.220 And, you know, before that, Jesus said, it's not right to give the children's food to the dogs.

01:17:04.280 That's right.

01:17:04.720 And then she says that, and of course, it's her faith that, you know, that then saves her.

01:17:08.740 But the thing is, Jesus wasn't wrong to say that at first.

01:17:11.720 Jesus, he wasn't wrong to say, yeah, he wasn't wrong to say, actually, I'm not here for you.

01:17:16.580 I'm here for my people. I've come to the lost sheep of Israel.

01:17:19.920 Exactly. In saving them, I'll fulfill the promise to Abraham. You will be blessed. 0.76

01:17:23.480 And here's proof. Your faith has made you well. Amen. Amen.

01:17:26.620 But one example is so Paul tells us to prioritize the people within the kingdom of God with our charity and our love and our affection.

01:17:36.480 Galatians, prioritize the household of faith.

01:17:38.480 And then the overflow of that is things outside the church. 0.78

01:17:42.400 So one practical example is I care much more about the well-being of Joel's family than about the immigrants coming over illegally through the border. 0.81

01:17:50.460 I would be failing to properly order my loves if I thought, no, they're probably just hurting.

01:17:56.820 They need some more economic opportunity.

01:17:58.740 I doubt they're all criminals and racists.

01:18:00.620 They just really need help.

01:18:01.980 Just let them come on in.

01:18:03.200 Let them invade my friend's state.

01:18:05.300 That would be a complete disordering of loves.

01:18:07.860 And so I want to tie this back to kind of where I was going with the love of neighbor thing in regards to this general election. And that is that it's not a matter of me saying that the abolitionist who, because of his conscience, isn't going to vote for one of the candidates, isn't loving his neighbor. That's not what I'm saying.

01:18:25.100 I believe that they are loving their neighbor by using their lack of a vote to send a message

01:18:32.640 to the political sphere that they have to do better.

01:18:37.620 I'm trying to be really charitable.

01:18:39.080 According to their conscience, that is exactly what they're doing.

01:18:41.440 And we understand that.

01:18:42.300 We appreciate that.

01:18:43.740 Practically speaking, in real terms, I don't think that's what it accomplishes.

01:18:47.340 I don't think the message works.

01:18:49.180 I completely agree.

01:18:50.360 But I don't want to accuse them of not loving their neighbor because I don't think that's

01:18:54.220 what they're doing.

01:18:54.660 What I do think is that we have to take that stance from them and say, okay, fair enough. But that's not the only way to love your neighbor. You could also love your neighbor by voting for one of the candidates, or you could hate your neighbor by voting for one of the candidates.

01:19:08.940 And so it's not so much a matter of, well, you're not loving your neighbor and I am. It's more a matter of understanding the times and figuring out which thing is more loving to your neighbor, including, again, your wife and kids, the person that lives next to you, literally, the people in your neighborhood, your city, your state, your nation, and then everything else outside of that.

01:19:31.360 And so I just want people to understand that we're talking about understanding the times and matters of wisdom here. And you do have to do some mental calculus and figure out, okay, if I'm using ones and zeros, is it more loving to my neighbor to vote for Trump or is it more loving to my neighbor to not vote at all, hoping that it'll send a message to the GOP to do better?

01:19:51.380 um that's the question that you have to ask yourself and eventually answer before it comes

01:19:56.220 time to vote amen yep that's yeah that frames it perfectly that is the question and you and i

01:20:02.180 obviously have a particular answer our answer is that we think that voting for trump is more loving

01:20:08.280 um that whatever message you you think you're getting across to the gop even in the best

01:20:13.540 best case scenario even if that message does get across um you've just now like let's just play it

01:20:20.520 you've just now signaled to the gop um you must do better um you have to produce for us a better

01:20:26.920 candidate so in 2028 uh we we need to see desantis or whoever on the ticket for the general election

01:20:33.560 and uh and not someone like trump okay uh but by sending that message biden got elected and so now

01:20:42.120 you've got a better candidate but you're going up against potentially 20 million more democrat voters

01:20:46.920 right so you've you've you've spent the asset of time uh in order to send that message right now 0.55

01:20:54.920 and the thing is it is a message that has to be sent like the gop simply does have to do better

01:20:59.360 they suck but so here's the question so exactly i love how you just said so you forfeited time

01:21:04.560 in order for quality so so uh and and even to be fair the potential of quality because you 0.97

01:21:10.440 actually don't know if that message is going to work um so you're so you're forfeiting time

01:21:15.100 for sure that one is definitive so you are giving up four years to maybe get a better quality

01:21:21.660 candidate four years from now so you're saying um i will i will forfeit um these these four years

01:21:28.060 for uh 25 through you know 28 for a better 29 through 32 um and uh but the problem is uh number

01:21:37.380 one you don't actually have it guaranteed that your message will be heard and you'll get a better

01:21:41.600 candidate and then number two you just lowered significantly and i would argue significantly

01:21:47.280 because it's like oh well you know 20 million like uh that that's ridiculous you're being

01:21:51.720 hyperbolic no no no it's it is um the lowest numbers are nine million and that's not even

01:21:56.940 biden's full term just in the first three years of his term nine million three million being legal

01:22:01.780 give or take and six million being illegal those are the lowest numbers there's a ton that haven't

01:22:06.560 been tracked the highest numbers go all the way up to potentially 20 million and then you're like

01:22:10.660 yeah but you keep talking about it being voting and they don't get to vote they are pushing

01:22:14.720 legislation right now successfully um where you don't have to prove citizenship to vote yeah the

01:22:21.180 save act just got denied yeah like this is a this is a really real threat and there's another so it

01:22:27.800 really is potentially 20 million if not even more and uh it really is voters shouldn't be but it is

01:22:36.160 this is a an opportune election for the gop i'm not going to say that you don't you know don't

01:22:43.360 let perfect be the enemy of good because i don't think trump is a good person right uh but he's

01:22:48.200 certainly less bad than biden so don't let perfect the enemy of less bad maybe is what i'd say

01:22:52.900 but then even even you know tying more of these factors together okay uh biden has said he is

01:22:59.560 going to run. And he is the candidate for the Democratic Party, even after his hilarious

01:23:06.740 debate against Trump, wherein he proved himself to be utterly inept. And even CNN was scrambling 0.91

01:23:13.360 to try to find a way to spin it. And finally, they just gave up and said, oh, man, maybe we

01:23:16.980 just need to find a better candidate. That means that we have an especially good opportunity

01:23:22.980 to get a republican president now so if we spend the asset of time right now to send that message

01:23:30.740 i understand that's a valid strategy but i just don't think that it actually works with what's

01:23:35.560 happening you know boots on the ground because in four years biden can't run again and so uh you

01:23:42.020 the democrats are going to get to put forward the person that they want yes and whoever

01:23:48.000 yeah like that means that you have uh given four years for more moral degeneracy in the u.s 0.79

01:23:55.040 at a more rapid rate which i understand not saying the gop would would be not morally degenerate but 0.77

01:24:00.980 it's less rapid and so people are going to be more enthralled with the idea of this moral

01:24:05.300 degeneracy and this sin and then the democrats are going to be able to put forward the candidate

01:24:09.160 that they really really really want which is going to be a person that's probably worse than

01:24:13.200 biden in almost every measurable way and so if the gop receives that message from you and they do

01:24:18.640 what they ought to do which is give you a better candidate people aren't gonna like him

01:24:23.740 because people will be more morally degenerate than they are now right this is the way that

01:24:29.580 covenant works if your covenant head in your nation is wicked then the people are going to

01:24:34.820 be more wicked that's right you get josiah's king and you get a better people that follow 0.61

01:24:38.860 you get a wicked king uh and you get a worse people that follow and so by having trump you

01:24:44.320 slow and not we're not sitting here saying trump is virtuous but you slow uh the degeneracy that

01:24:50.940 that progression of further degeneracy among the american populace um so that uh a better candidate

01:24:57.440 better than trump is more palatable to the people in 2028 so here's the last thing i was going to 0.86

01:25:03.420 say, here's an option that I think is the correct option that Christians, and I think it falls 0.51

01:25:09.960 well within the boundaries of you still hold firmly your abolitionist card. We started this 0.99

01:25:16.340 going, you know, step one, step two, step two. Here's what I would say is you want to send a

01:25:21.580 message to the GOP and to Trump. If he gets elected, you want, you know, your president

01:25:28.040 to get the message of not just give us someone better than Trump four years from now, but also

01:25:32.660 trump you right now be better so here's what i would suggest is you're saying you want to send

01:25:38.300 a message to the gop um but also what we're advocating for ben and i is saying but you also

01:25:43.480 uh want um you want the best four years now that you can get so that that message with the gop if

01:25:50.900 they do listen to it um you actually have a chance with the populace of having a a a moral enough

01:26:00.420 people and also just enough voters and not 20 million more democrat voters to where that better

01:26:05.660 candidate the gop you know hypothetically puts forward could actually win so all that being said

01:26:10.720 you need to send a message but you also need to win this election you need to win this election

01:26:16.900 and send a message for next election so yeah so what i would suggest is why not just do that

01:26:21.840 why not vote for trump to win this one and then um give him your vote and don't give him

01:26:30.560 your endorsement do what me and all these other faithful christians are doing who are abolitionists

01:26:37.060 who who completely despise the second victim narrative who want equal weights equal measures

01:26:42.680 equal protection all these kinds of things think brent leatherwood is is unregenerate and going to

01:26:47.520 hell and wicked all these kinds of things why don't you do what we're doing here's what we're

01:26:51.140 doing we're going to vote for trump and we're going to spend starting right now i've already

01:26:55.840 been doing it for months but we will spend the next four years we'll give him our vote we will

01:27:00.720 pray that he gets office and we'll spend four years saying mr president repent of your sin

01:27:06.580 protect the unborn don't you dare do that that's wicked donald trump do not do that repent believe

01:27:14.000 upon the lord jesus christ legislate righteously enforce righteous laws you're building a wall

01:27:20.460 you're protecting our border thank god also don't be a murderer of babies in the womb like why don't

01:27:26.840 you do that why why do you have to send the message in in in by not not voting why don't

01:27:33.200 you send the message by literally just saying the message but also ensuring that um that we don't

01:27:39.420 get 20 million pro-abortion voters over the next four years by by throwing your vote into the wind

01:27:47.760 and ensuring a second Biden term.

01:27:51.340 I think that is a viable option 0.53

01:27:53.600 where the Christian and the abolitionist Christian, 0.94

01:27:56.160 but I repeat myself,

01:27:57.340 could hold that position

01:27:59.440 with a clear conscience before the Lord.

01:28:02.100 It's strategic, it's shrewd,

01:28:04.180 it's also principled,

01:28:05.860 it's pragmatic, but not in an inherently evil way.

01:28:08.680 It's principled, but without being idyllic.

01:28:14.600 I just think that's the path.

01:28:17.760 I think that it's shrewd. And I think that it is still innocent as well. And part of the reason that we're zealous about this at all, and the passion and the way that we're talking, is because we, again, just to reiterate, recognize the value in the good work that abolitionists do in the political sphere.

01:28:39.140 And so the asset that would be there if we had the most committed, dedicated abolitionists, we're like, God made them. And when he made them, he's like, that's what you're for. You are for defending the rights of the unborn. You are for defending the life of the unborn.

01:28:58.080 If we could have those guys, and I know that they'll do this if Trump wins, they'll do all of that. But if they could also make it so that they cast their vote for a man that will maybe, maybe be more likely to hear it, I think that would be a huge value.

01:29:14.780 And so that's part of why this is even important to address, recognizing that there's absolutely no anathematizing going on whatsoever. There's no accusations of sin going on whatsoever. It's more of a pleading to say, let's do this and let's do it arm in arm and give them everything you got so that they actually do hear your message strongly.

01:29:35.820 and it's unavoidable because it is like Trump's life policy and the GOP's life policy right now

01:29:42.280 is unacceptable. It is unacceptable, but it's less unacceptable than the Democrats.

01:29:48.120 And maybe there's a chance that we could hold the line and actually have them backtrack and

01:29:53.500 repent for it. The Democrats are given over. They're Romans warning down to the very, very

01:29:57.900 bottom. The GOP, maybe they are. I'm not God, but maybe they aren't. But less than the Democrats.

01:30:04.040 yes yep so i'm i'm with you and then and then that's just all just and then there that's just

01:30:09.660 on life which is a big massive issue and i would argue the biggest but that is one issue and there

01:30:14.840 are other issues and the gop is handedly better on all the other ones economy yes um like i want

01:30:20.780 my i want i love my neighbors i'd like them to not be poor right immigration all these all these

01:30:25.860 other things uh here's another one foreign policy um foreign affairs uh you love your neighbors

01:30:31.040 here's something that would be unloving towards your neighbors world war three right or even if

01:30:37.360 not world war three more money going to the ukraine that's incredibly unloving to your 0.61

01:30:42.260 billions of dollars to ukraine and israel um yeah so yeah exactly keeping your tax dollars 0.73

01:30:48.540 not um love your neighbor it means uh is if you have a say in the matter using your say to make

01:30:54.360 sure that your neighbor is not robbed or robbed less you know like so all those kinds of things

01:30:59.500 but there was one thing that you said

01:31:02.000 and we can land the plane here

01:31:03.340 and this is why I think it matters

01:31:04.720 the reason why this whole conversation matters

01:31:06.960 is because you said

01:31:07.920 we are not saying that our abolitionist

01:31:11.240 brothers and sisters are in sin

01:31:12.840 if they disagree with us

01:31:14.560 and don't vote for Trump

01:31:15.800 but the reason why I wanted to have this conversation

01:31:18.160 is because not all

01:31:19.560 I would even argue it's a minority

01:31:21.360 but some of our abolitionist brothers and sisters

01:31:24.620 they are saying

01:31:26.620 that it is a sin

01:31:28.120 to vote for Trump

01:31:29.320 In fact, they're even saying that it is a sin to the level of pastoral disqualification to vote for Trump.

01:31:38.560 That has been publicly said.

01:31:40.760 Any thoughts on that?

01:31:43.280 I would hope that maybe this discussion between you and I could help them see that that's not true.

01:31:53.360 This isn't a flippant decision that we're making.

01:31:55.400 It's one that's being weighed quite heavily, that has a huge bearing on my neighbor, my family,

01:32:02.960 my nation. And it's not something that I'm hoping to get away with. And it is something that I've

01:32:12.060 thought long and hard about and believe with my redeemed heart that I can stand before God

01:32:18.280 and say with a clean conscience, yes, this is what I did and why. And I don't think that it's

01:32:23.100 sinful. Um, so I would, I would ask them to be charitable, um, as we work through how to apply

01:32:31.100 these principles as we are trying to be charitable to them as well. Amen. All right. Any final

01:32:36.820 thoughts for the end of this episode? I feel like we got it all out, left it all in the field.

01:32:40.600 Thanks for having me on. I feel great. It's nice and hot here and there's no AC, so I'm sweaty

01:32:44.760 and, uh, and, and just loving life. Yeah. Another reason to vote for Trump. Uh,

01:32:51.180 The president has control of the weather.

01:32:53.700 We know this.

01:32:54.860 That's right.

01:32:55.760 What is it?

01:32:56.580 The cloud thingy?

01:32:58.780 What is it?

01:32:59.220 Yeah, you're doing some cloud seeding.

01:33:01.500 Trump is against cloud seeding.

01:33:03.380 No, I don't know if that's true.

01:33:06.200 All right, man.

01:33:06.840 Well, thanks, Ben.

01:33:07.400 Love you, dude.

01:33:07.880 And thank you for the listener for tuning in and staying with us to the bitter end.

01:33:12.480 Thank you.

01:33:21.180 you

The NXR Podcast - July 22, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - Abolitionists & Voting For Trump with Ben Garrett

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