The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - Can Angels Procreate With Women？ w Dr. Tim Chaffey

00:00:00.000 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel

00:00:03.880 Webin, here with Right Response Ministries. This is our fourth and final episode with Dr. Tim Chafee

00:00:09.960 coming back onto the show to finish our four-part series on the Nephilim, the Watchers. Well, I guess

00:00:16.740 I should start in order. The Watchers, Fallen Angels, the Nephilim, and the Giants. And today

00:00:21.140 is kind of like a free safety catch-all where we're kind of just dotting I's and crossing T's

00:00:27.480 and finishing up all the looming hangover questions that you guys have had, the most

00:00:32.840 commonly asked questions from the previous three episodes that we've already done. And just to give

00:00:37.500 you a little bit of a sample of tasting, we're going to talk about, is there really such a thing 0.97

00:00:41.460 as female angels? We kind of have a sneaking suspicion they might all be men. I know that 0.89

00:00:46.560 sounds crazy. Hear us out. We've got some arguments. So are there female angels or are they all male

00:00:51.260 angels. And then male angels, are they physical, body and spirit, or just spirit? How could they

00:00:57.920 procreate with human female women? How does that work? And then we talk about, in addition to all 1.00

00:01:05.300 that, how big were giants actually? What kind of size did they get to? I think it's fascinating.

00:01:13.120 Some of the most fascinating, but also really practical questions, handling some of the most

00:01:17.520 frequent, not only questions, but objections to this idea that fallen angels that rebelled against

00:01:23.040 God could actually procreate with human women. A lot of people just think that that's fantastical.

00:01:27.700 I think that's what the Word of God teaches, so does Dr. Tim Chafee, and I think that between the

00:01:32.500 two of us, we make a very compelling argument. So, tune in now. Applying God's Word to every

00:01:38.260 aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:47.520 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel

00:01:51.480 Webin with Right Response Ministries. Today, I am joined for the fourth and final time with Dr.

00:01:56.860 Tim Chafee. We've been doing a mini-series, a four-part series. And so if you haven't seen

00:02:01.240 the first three parts, I encourage you to feel free to watch this video. But if you have any

00:02:05.020 looming questions, you're like, well, they didn't really make a thorough argument because they

00:02:08.520 didn't answer this objection and they didn't handle this nuance or whatever, it's very likely

00:02:13.680 that we actually did address it in one of the previous parts. So I encourage you to go back

00:02:18.140 and check out the first three episodes, but you don't have to do that preemptively. You're welcome

00:02:22.540 to stay and just watch this and work your way backwards or forwards, whatever you want to do.

00:02:26.660 But this is the fourth and final episode dealing with the Nephilim. We're dealing with fallen 0.85

00:02:31.560 angels. We're dealing with the Nephilim, and we're also dealing with down generations giants. And so 0.91

00:02:37.740 that's what we've been dealing with. And today we really want to focus in on some of the questions

00:02:42.800 that you guys have left for us in the comments

00:02:44.860 and the things that seem to be

00:02:47.560 the most inquisitive questions,

00:02:50.660 but also the most popular, the common questions, right?

00:02:53.120 Working with FAQs,

00:02:55.060 trying to deal with the most frequently asked questions.

00:02:58.220 How can we address all of those?

00:02:59.620 So this is kind of a final summary video

00:03:01.600 where we dot some I's, cross some T's.

00:03:04.180 And without further ado,

00:03:05.480 let's go ahead and get started.

00:03:06.740 Tim Chafee, thank you for coming on the show again.

00:03:09.480 Hey, Joel, it's great to be with you again.

00:03:11.320 Thanks for having me.

00:03:11.920 It's been a lot of fun so far, and I'm looking forward to this one as well.

00:03:15.520 All right.

00:03:15.800 Well, let's go ahead and do this.

00:03:16.780 You said that it might be helpful to give, obviously, we don't want to, I mean, people

00:03:20.480 can go back and watch the video, so we want to keep it brief, but it might be helpful

00:03:23.440 for people just to get a little bit of a refresher.

00:03:26.100 So why don't you take care of that job and recap a little bit of what we've covered thus

00:03:30.920 far?

00:03:31.220 Yeah.

00:03:31.480 Okay.

00:03:31.840 So some of the objection we get, let me just give you like a rapid fire type of thing.

00:03:37.320 A lot of times I hear people say, well, Jesus said angels can't do that.

00:03:40.920 and they'll point to Matthew 22 30 uh just very quickly we've covered that in two other episodes

00:03:45.300 so no Jesus didn't say they cannot do that he said the ones in who are still in heaven don't

00:03:49.900 do that so he never said about what the ones who left heaven and are rebelling what they can or

00:03:54.640 can't do um some people say well this whole issue that you're talking about the fallen angel view

00:03:59.300 that's all based on the book of Enoch uh it's not true uh there's much in this much about in the

00:04:04.580 bible in the book of Enoch is just representing a an interpretation that was had that people had

00:04:08.920 during the intertestamental period, so it aligns with this, but it's not based on the

00:04:12.860 book of Enoch.

00:04:13.860 Some people think that the spies were lying in Numbers 13 and saying that the Nephilim

00:04:18.900 were in the land, but we have to remember that the narrator, Moses himself, tells us

00:04:24.180 earlier in the chapter that the spies actually saw the Anakim there, and the Anakim are of

00:04:28.600 the Nephilim, so there were giants in the land.

00:04:31.400 Some people wonder how it's possible that people like you and me could think that God

00:04:35.140 would ever allow something so wretched, so perverse.

00:04:38.920 And all we have to do is look around our culture, our world today. 0.94

00:04:41.640 God permits or allows abortion. 0.66

00:04:43.740 He allows murder. 0.99

00:04:44.740 He allows rape. 0.99

00:04:45.460 He allows all sorts of evil things. 0.78

00:04:46.760 Just because that stuff exists, it doesn't mean we get to deny the reality of it.

00:04:52.360 We don't have to be comfortable.

00:04:53.560 We don't have to like it, but it occurs.

00:04:56.620 So those are just some of the objections that I hear, or the Bible would never call this

00:05:01.340 marriage between the fallen angels and human women because that's not what biblical marriage

00:05:07.020 is.

00:05:07.340 Well, Solomon had a thousand wives, princes, and concubines, and that's not ideal either.

00:05:13.760 If you think about worship in the Bible, you have true worship, and you also have false worship. 0.56

00:05:18.400 You have the worship of pagan gods, of idols and everything, and you have the true worship of the one true God.

00:05:25.240 So the same word is used in both cases.

00:05:27.840 It's just one is what is ideal and what is right versus what is a distortion of that.

00:05:33.960 Great.

00:05:35.460 Okay, so then let's start there.

00:05:37.080 with the angels, you know, specifically what you were talking about, you said, Jesus didn't say

00:05:42.120 they can't do that to, you know, just to explicitly spell out the, that he says, you know, that angels

00:05:47.880 do not marry in heaven. You know, that when we go to heaven, you know, cause it's, it's one of

00:05:54.280 those gotcha moments with the religious rulers of the day within, within Judaism, they're, you know, 0.97

00:05:58.920 trying to, to, you know, to trick Jesus. And so they say, you know, Jesus, if there was this 0.92

00:06:04.740 hypothetical situation with a woman who had seven husbands, right? And, you know, the first husband

00:06:08.780 dies, she marries again. The second, you know, not simultaneously, but one in sequence after

00:06:13.020 another. The husbands keep dying. She keeps remarrying. And then, you know, eventually has

00:06:17.920 a total of seven husbands. Which husband will she be married to in the resurrection? And Jesus 0.91

00:06:21.900 responds and says, you know, in the resurrection, you know, in heaven, we will be as the angels are

00:06:26.840 who don't marry. And so to use that and say, well, there you have it. Case closed. Out of the mouth

00:06:32.020 of Christ himself, angels cannot procreate. Well, wait a second, you just eisegeted, you just read

00:06:37.020 into the text by that word cannot, speaking of ability, rather than what Jesus says they do not

00:06:42.560 do, speaking of, that's not a prescriptive, that's a descriptive language of this is how it is,

00:06:50.000 but that's not speaking in terms of possibility, ability. And so angels in heaven don't marry.

00:06:55.880 rebellious angels who leave heaven, Jesus says nothing about what they can do. And so that's

00:07:02.980 what's in reference there. But I think that it's interesting. We've explored a little bit of this

00:07:07.660 in our previous episode, the most recent episode, I think part three, but I think it's worth

00:07:12.240 exploring again. I am of the persuasion. I think you are, neither of us are definitive, but I think

00:07:17.820 we both lean in this direction. I'm of the persuasion that one of the reasons angels don't

00:07:22.540 Mary in heaven is that it's not God's design. It's not his will, but also it is an impossibility

00:07:29.600 because I truly am, again, not a hundred percent sure, but leaning heavily towards

00:07:36.040 the possibility that angels are exclusively male. You want to talk about that? What do you think

00:07:41.900 about that? Yeah, we did cover that a bit in one of the other episodes as well. There's no

00:07:48.320 indication anywhere in scripture, at least no clear indication anywhere in scripture that

00:07:52.680 angels could be described as feminine. There is the one verse that you and I talked about

00:07:58.860 in Zechariah 5, where it's a vision of these two storks and they're in the feminine, but whether

00:08:03.820 or not that, and some people think that they're demons or at least evil spirits, you know, fallen

00:08:08.460 angels. But again, it's a vision. How much do we read into that? And are they really representing

00:08:16.060 two individual spirits or are they also are they representing maybe nations or some other

00:08:22.780 corporate entities groups like like the two witnesses in revelation that could be two

00:08:27.320 individual people but it also could those two you know lots of faithful biblical scholars have

00:08:32.240 have defined that as a representative of two churches corporate groups of of people and so

00:08:38.180 to use a vision uh that's just not the strong but when we have a narrative historical narrative like

00:08:43.960 Gabriel, you know, speaking to Mary or three angels, one of them being the angel of the Lord

00:08:49.480 himself, but then accompanied with two other angels meeting with Abraham. And in all these

00:08:53.940 instances, not visions, but actual physical appearances of angels as a historical narrative

00:09:00.860 in the script, they're exclusively man. Yeah, that's right. You do have the one

00:09:04.340 verse in Hebrews 13 that talks about how we're supposed to be hospitable to strangers because

00:09:09.040 some people have entertained angels unaware. Again, it doesn't say, therefore, someday there's

00:09:13.540 going to be a female who shows up at your door and you should, you know, welcome her because

00:09:16.720 it's really a female angel. It doesn't say that it would be within the realm of possibility just

00:09:21.500 from the textual standpoint, but it is not proof at all that there are female angels. Um, I would

00:09:27.820 agree with you whenever we do see angels in scripture, whenever they are, whenever their

00:09:31.900 gender is referenced at all, it's always male. Um, so my, yeah, so thank you. So, so further

00:09:38.460 fleshing that out my position. Um, and I think you and I are pretty linked up on this. I'm sure

00:09:43.500 there'd be some differences. But my position is that, so now taking that, so we've established

00:09:49.520 that, I know it's not a hands-down definitive case, but we've made a plausible argument for

00:09:54.760 angels being male. And so it's a two-pronged argument. Angels don't marry in heaven, one,

00:10:00.040 because there's only dude angels in heaven, you know, and not chick angels in heaven. But then 0.98

00:10:04.880 two, because it's also not God's design and will. So the angels that are in heaven are not rebellious

00:10:09.800 angels. They're submitted to the lordship and authority of God as the supreme being, but also

00:10:16.100 they're male, who would they marry? But on earth, one, you have females, not female angels, but you

00:10:21.880 do have female human beings. And then two, these are rebellious angels who are no longer submitted

00:10:27.540 to God's will. Now the question is, okay, so if angels are male, the next thing is though, like,

00:10:34.480 but how does one male species mate with another female species? And so what I would add now

00:10:43.460 dealing with that objection is I think of David in the Psalms, which finds its ultimate highest

00:10:50.260 fulfillment, as the author of Hebrews spells out for us, it has a messianic fulfillment in Christ.

00:10:56.940 So the ultimate interpretation, what I'm about to quote of David in the Psalms is that Christ

00:11:01.880 ultimately fulfills it. But David is also, I think it also is a faithful interpretation

00:11:06.920 of David means it as it pertains to not just Christ, but as it pertains to humanity in general

00:11:13.420 as a whole. And what David says is, who is man that you are mindful of him or the son of man

00:11:19.560 that you should care for him? He's talking about the compassion of God towards all things considered

00:11:24.900 a puny, tiny little creature, namely you and I. But this infinite God who created all things

00:11:32.420 is so compassionate and kind that he loves man, even man, us. And he says, who is man that you

00:11:41.780 are mindful of him or the son of man that you should show compassion to him? You made him just

00:11:47.320 a little lower than the angels. And I understand that this is a fairly literal hermeneutic that

00:11:53.480 I'm about to apply here, but a lot of text should be interpreted literally. And I take that to mean

00:12:00.040 that a male angel and a female human being would not be likened to a male elephant and a female

00:12:10.700 frog trying to mate. I take it much more like a little lower. If man is made just a little lower,

00:12:18.480 and I know that you hold the view that angels like man have likewise been created in the image

00:12:22.900 of god so both are image-bearing creatures and and one is only a little lower than the other

00:12:27.560 i take it as like two uh different species separate but but within the canine larger family

00:12:34.480 like a like a great dane and a german shepherd angel male female human being and uh that they

00:12:42.960 they very uh absolutely could procreate and that angel and that brings up another thing just

00:12:48.260 briefly, that I think a lot of times Christians have a, we over-spiritualize, I think a lot of

00:12:54.880 times, especially modern evangelicals. I think some of it's Gnostic. I'm not saying this

00:12:59.400 interpretation is hard Gnosticism, you know, that it's heretical or anything like that. But

00:13:03.480 in general, I think that we have modern Christians having Gnostic bent, Gnostic-istic bent and 0.86

00:13:10.160 over-spiritualizing bad habit. Angels, as far as we know, they're not omnipresent like God. God is

00:13:16.760 a most pure spirit without body parts and passions. He's not confined to a physical location, a

00:13:21.860 physical body. Christ, the second member of the Godhead, second member of the Trinity, he is the

00:13:26.280 God-man, divine, fully God and fully man. And so he does have a body and he's seated on a throne

00:13:32.320 physically in heaven at the right hand of the Father. But the Father and Christ before the

00:13:37.700 incarnation and the Spirit are most pure spirits without body parts and passions and infinite.

00:13:43.340 but every creature that God made, both heavenly and earthly creatures, angels, I don't think

00:13:50.220 there's any reason to think that angels are pure spirit in heaven. And then whenever there's an

00:13:55.380 angelic appearance on earth, it's actually just a purely spiritual entity without a body projecting

00:14:03.400 a hologram or an apparition that looks physical. I don't think that's it. I think it's a physical

00:14:08.560 being, just like human beings, we have both spirit and body, spirit and body. I think angels

00:14:13.880 likewise are spirit and body, a spirit with a physical locale of the body. And when they come

00:14:19.460 to earth, they're coming in both spirit and body. They actually are appearing in flesh in their

00:14:26.260 body. And, you know, golly gee, what does that body look like? A lot like ours to the point where

00:14:33.660 even, you know, the inhabitants of Sodom, you know, could notice, hey, there's something

00:14:37.860 different about them. So in their lust and perversion, they were desirable, these angels,

00:14:42.980 but they also weren't sitting there and saying, what's this crazy monster in town that looks 0.90

00:14:48.280 nothing like a human being at all? It was like, no, they stand out, but also they look like people

00:14:54.760 enough to where we desire them lustfully and in a perverse way. And same with the three angels,

00:15:03.340 one being the angel of the Lord, eat with Abraham. So I see angels as one, I think male,

00:15:09.460 and then two, physical beings, not that unlike human beings to where they're physical,

00:15:18.980 they're male, they don't mate in heaven because it's not God's will. And there's not female 0.55

00:15:24.260 angels, but there are female women. And the gap between human beings and angels is not that big.

00:15:30.240 And these are also angels who, if they come to earth, the ones that were fallen, they're

00:15:33.800 rebellious, so they're not submitted to God's will.

00:15:36.520 It's not a crazy position.

00:15:38.900 Anything you think on that?

00:15:41.500 Yeah, I would largely agree with that.

00:15:44.660 I have a friend who, he argues that Jesus spoke against the fallen angel view in this

00:15:51.240 way.

00:15:51.420 In fact, he went so far as saying, if the fallen angel's view is true, we can't be

00:15:56.380 saved because Jesus would have lied and then Jesus can't be our savior.

00:15:59.660 Well, where does he say that, anything like this?

00:16:02.200 Well, once Jesus rises from the dead and he appears to the disciples, and he says,

00:16:07.980 handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

00:16:11.800 And so they look at that and they say, see, Jesus said spirits don't have flesh and bones,

00:16:15.480 so how can you argue this?

00:16:17.780 Well, first of all, that word spirit is just the Greek word pneuma, which means lots of

00:16:22.520 different things.

00:16:23.100 It's translated as our breath or as the wind or as the Holy Spirit is also used that term.

00:16:29.660 um so spirits um it could be referring to angelic beings it could be a ghost that he's talking about

00:16:37.440 and that actually seems to be what he's talking about um because it um other other translations

00:16:43.520 actually say that say that like the net bible touch me and see a ghost does not have flesh

00:16:47.180 and bones as you see that i have and so he's not saying i'm not an angel they didn't think that he

00:16:52.220 was an angel that's not the the point and so people who make way too much out of that one

00:16:58.700 use of the word when there's such a broad uh range um syntactical range of what that word can mean

00:17:06.280 i i think you have to look at the rest of the context of scripture and in this case when angels

00:17:11.240 appear they have human form um they they they can look human enough for the the um sinful men at

00:17:21.720 uh sodom to lust after them and want to molest them um they can eat and drink with abraham just

00:17:28.540 before that and they can pull lot by the hand out of the out of the city uh so they can do all sorts

00:17:33.820 of physical human activity and to me i i think you're right i think they are uh since i believe

00:17:42.500 that they are also made in god's image then we are in a in a sense that they're not so different

00:17:49.800 than us and even though they may not have the same exact flesh and blood while they're in

00:17:57.060 eternity you know not in eternity but while they're in heaven now but i think if you think

00:18:00.800 about eternity um this is one area joel you and i i think would agree on this where maybe our

00:18:06.120 all-millennial brothers would not um but i'm not quite sure where some of them would go on this

00:18:10.340 but in the eternal state so we have new glorified but not new we have glorified bodies it's right

00:18:17.360 this body gets glorified the one that goes into the grave is the one that comes out of the grave

00:18:20.640 but it's glorified it's transformed paul talks about in first penthouse 15. and we're going to

00:18:25.040 inhabit a new heavens and a new earth the new jerusalem is described in revelation 21 22.

00:18:31.680 it's going to be a physical reality for all eternity it's not floating on the clouds

00:18:36.800 playing harps it's not a bodiless existence we are meant to have a body and we're going to have

00:18:42.640 physical body for all eternity again glorified we're not going to get sore and you know like

00:18:48.040 we do now and achy joints or anything right um and angels will be there and i don't think that

00:18:54.940 they're just going to be floating around ethereal spirits i think that they're going to actually have

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00:19:56.320 free bag of coffee today right which is not that crazy to think especially when you think of

00:20:01.520 um jesus so so since the resurrection and and more specifically the ascension notice this like

00:20:10.680 so jesus in his glorified state after the resurrection he was able right because this

00:20:17.620 is important so it's like well jesus isn't the only resurrected being no he is actually he

00:20:22.400 currently we're all going to be resurrected on the final day but lazarus was not resurrected

00:20:28.000 The better word technically would be he was revitalized, resuscitated, but when his body came back, and it's sad, but his body did not come back for good.

00:20:39.620 His body came back to die twice, and Lazarus had to die twice.

00:20:44.300 And so he did not come back with a glorified body.

00:20:47.440 He came back with the same body in the same state, but just resuscitated, revived, but not resurrected in terms of glorified.

00:20:56.180 uh but jesus which is why jesus can be called the first fruits from exactly because otherwise

00:21:01.740 you know or or even before him other exactly so jesus the first fruits of being resurrected

00:21:07.760 glorified body from the dead same body that he walked on uh on earth in uh for you know

00:21:14.660 approximately you know 33 plus years until until he was crucified same body but made new not a new

00:21:20.840 body, meaning another body, same body, but made new in a new state, a higher state. But here's

00:21:26.780 the thing. He wasn't just resurrected. And then for the last 2000 years, he's hiding out somewhere

00:21:32.040 alive on earth. He was resurrected and then he ascended. And in his glorified state, he was able,

00:21:38.920 we know he was able to vanish, walk through a door as he, you know, appearing to the disciples,

00:21:45.440 the door was locked. He walks into the room. So he's able to appear and vanish. And we don't

00:21:49.440 know exactly how that works in his glorified body state. But in the ascension, he doesn't just

00:21:56.060 disappear after giving his final words to his disciples. He physically ascends, levitates,

00:22:02.340 goes up into the sky and only disappears because the text explicitly says he was then hidden behind

00:22:08.600 the clouds. And what I'm trying to argue to, this is my point, is that Jesus, the God-man

00:22:15.920 in flesh, still in flesh, these past 2000 years, he went somewhere. And if he is physical,

00:22:24.320 he has a physical body now. He's not merely physical, but he does have a physical body

00:22:28.880 forevermore than that physical body can only exist logically in a physical place. So he didn't go to

00:22:34.960 the 17th dimension that is solely a spiritual plane. Wherever heaven is, not even just the

00:22:42.500 new heavens on the new earth that is yet to come. But even heaven now has some, it must have some

00:22:50.280 physical element in the sense that Jesus has a physical body. He's seated, a physical body can

00:22:55.700 only be seated on a physical throne. And so the idea that there are physical, other physical

00:23:00.200 creatures, namely angels in this place that is spiritual, but also has a physical element to

00:23:06.460 encompass, to be the conducive context for physical beings, none of this is crazy. And I think the

00:23:12.280 fact that what we know, a lot of it seems like speculation, but if we argue from what's

00:23:16.200 definitive, we know that Jesus right now has a physical body and he's somewhere. And that

00:23:20.760 somewhere is heaven. And so we know heaven has to have, even heaven now, before the new heavens and

00:23:26.020 the new earth, heaven as it currently is, has some physical element to it to where our physical

00:23:31.840 resurrected Lord is able to be there. And that makes room in my mind for physical angels being

00:23:40.060 there um what do you think about that argument no i think that's great and i i look at um first

00:23:45.520 corinthians 15 and beginning around 42 43 it talks about how there's the the body is so many natural

00:23:52.420 body it's right the spiritual body and people look at that and they think oh this is a so you're so

00:23:57.440 it is spiritual no no it's a body that is dominated by the spirit rather than a body that is dominated

00:24:02.640 by the flesh um it's so even if you look into the greek on that that is that bears that out and i've

00:24:09.280 got that in the book but then he goes on he says the first man is from earth made of dust the second

00:24:14.020 man is from heaven and we're going to be like the one from heaven we're going to be like jesus was

00:24:19.300 when we are glorified when we are transformed and as he just said he had a physical body that was

00:24:24.780 different than what it was before he could not die again um it's he seemed to have had super

00:24:32.080 certain abilities that are not normal like he said he whether he walked through a door or not

00:24:37.860 I'm not sure exactly how he got there, but somehow he appeared in their midst when the door was

00:24:42.200 locked. So whether he just walks right through it or said, I'm going to teleport right there.

00:24:45.580 I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. But, um, that's different than what we can do.

00:24:51.480 Yeah. Yes. He's God, but he wasn't doing those things prior to that.

00:24:56.160 Right. Right. Um, yeah. Great point. So what we've been arguing so far, and we'll move on

00:25:01.280 to another topic, but there's one more piece on, on this subject that I'd love to address. Um,

00:25:05.500 But what we're arguing so far is that we think,

00:25:08.200 this one we probably feel a little bit less strongly about,

00:25:11.520 but fairly strong that angels were male.

00:25:13.900 And then second point that we feel

00:25:15.740 probably a little bit stronger about

00:25:16.980 is that angels certainly are spirit and physical.

00:25:19.540 They have bodies.

00:25:20.480 So we think they definitely have bodies

00:25:22.540 and probably male bodies

00:25:25.400 and perhaps exclusively male bodies.

00:25:27.860 And that those angels as creatures

00:25:30.340 created in the image of God, like man,

00:25:32.140 are different, but not so different from us

00:25:34.600 that male physical angels could not mate with female physical humans. And they don't do that

00:25:43.180 in heaven, but it doesn't mean that they can't do that, especially if they're rebelling against

00:25:47.500 God's will on earth. So none of that is crazy. And to say that Jesus just is the TKO knockout

00:25:53.940 punch for the fallen angel view is just bad exegesis. The Sethite view might be right, 1.00

00:25:59.220 but not from that argument. That doesn't get you the Sethite view. You're going to have to do

00:26:02.980 better than that. And so the last thing that I want to say though, I'm just thinking of one more

00:26:07.460 objection that our listeners might have. And I know it's a genuine question for me. Well, what

00:26:12.240 about other biblical texts that don't just talk about angels visiting? Because when there's an

00:26:16.540 angelic visitation on earth, they do appear human, like Gabriel with Mary. But what about

00:26:23.640 other biblical texts like Revelation talking about four living creatures covered in eyes with six

00:26:30.960 wings and one the head of an ox and the head of a lion and the head you know uh or ezekiel like

00:26:35.980 like wheels you know um what what would you uh what would you say about that yeah i think what

00:26:42.680 that shows us other than maybe john and ezekiel struggled to describe what they were seeing

00:26:48.980 because when you're ezekiel's interpret or explanation it's really hard to wrap my mind

00:26:54.400 on what he is actually describing um but yeah they're they're um i mean i understand the passage

00:27:02.920 in terms of he's seeing god's throne and these uh cherubim that are there they seem to be you know

00:27:09.040 guardians of god's throne in some sense and so i get that but in terms of how he's describing it

00:27:15.700 it's strange but we have to understand that that's not saying every single angelic being looks just

00:27:20.540 like that uh we know the ones in isaiah six they have six wings they cover their feet with two of

00:27:25.420 them they cover their eyes with two of them and they uh they fly with two of them and you know

00:27:30.440 all day and night they're proclaiming holy holy holy and um so they have they seem to have a

00:27:37.240 unique role to play and there are other angelic spirits that were or angelic beings that were

00:27:44.100 given the task of governing certain areas, especially at Babel. We see that in Deuteronomy

00:27:52.140 32, 8, and then that's talked about elsewhere. We covered that in one of the other episodes as well

00:27:57.520 when we're talking about the divine council. So angels have different roles or different

00:28:02.200 abilities. There are different kinds, whether you're talking about seraphim and cherubim

00:28:07.260 and perhaps the b'nai Elohim, which is the sons of God that we've been talking about.

00:28:12.820 so we shouldn't just assume all angelic life is exactly like it you know just one type of thing

00:28:20.660 uh that god create diversity of life here on on our planet earth and i think there's a diversity

00:28:27.480 of life in in heaven with him good yeah i agree so what one option is is it could be the ezekiel

00:28:34.640 text or the revelation for, you know, text could be, one, it could be a, you know, more of a

00:28:44.300 metaphorical, symbolic writing. And then number two, even if it is literal, that's entirely

00:28:51.620 possible. But even if it is literal, this is not a description of every type of angel in heaven.

00:28:59.040 um and and it seems like if anything we don't know exactly but if i had to guess it seems like

00:29:04.860 if it is literal uh it would be a description of of a minority type of angel in heaven it's like

00:29:11.060 like there's four not four million but four living creatures covered in ice like it's a it's a unique

00:29:17.280 and even higher in terms of i believe that there's um different types of angels and a hierarchy um

00:29:23.440 you know in in heaven um and so well and paul bears that out as well and maybe this is more with

00:29:28.760 the evil spiritual force but you have principalities and powers and thrones and dominions these are

00:29:33.300 spiritual forces and that they are there is ranking now i don't know if we can have a

00:29:40.520 completely fleshed out view of that because i don't think the bible gives us enough detail to

00:29:45.720 do that but to the point that we can say yeah there is some sort of hierarchy that and difference

00:29:50.960 in not just rank but ability right um so yeah so it one uh explanation is ezekiel and revelation

00:29:59.260 could be metaphorical symbolic language the the second explanation is even if it is exactly

00:30:03.520 literal literal a physical description um then okay great then some angels look really weird

00:30:09.680 but that doesn't mean all angels look really weird and it seems if anything you could you could by

00:30:15.160 maybe not explicit argumentation, but implicit. You could say that it seems like at least some

00:30:21.440 angels, if not the majority of angels, don't look weird. And those that God commissions to have

00:30:28.380 earthly visitations, they look a lot like us. And we are made just a little lower than them.

00:30:33.980 And they are physical and they're not merely spiritual. They're spirit and body, just as

00:30:37.500 we're spirit and body, both made in the image of God, looking very similar in many regards.

00:30:41.980 and if they're in rebellion against God's will

00:30:44.720 because they've fallen to earth,

00:30:46.580 then absolutely plausible that angels could procreate

00:30:51.200 with female human beings.

00:30:54.700 We could be wrong, we're not omniscient,

00:30:57.680 but to say that that view is crazy is,

00:31:02.920 I just think you can't back that up.

00:31:05.900 You can say you think it's wrong, 0.73

00:31:07.380 but I think it's certainly a permissible,

00:31:09.740 plausible reasonable interpretation of scripture yeah i would agree and if i can um just finish up

00:31:16.940 one other point we were talking about a few moments ago with the in this eternal state that

00:31:20.980 we're going to have physical bodies in a physical world that is so foreign to like the modern pop

00:31:28.400 cultural view of of heaven of the eternal of our afterlife um we so many people think that we're

00:31:35.280 just going to become spirits and stand you know sing songs 24 7 around the throne and you know

00:31:41.700 for a lot of people that's disheartening because it seems like that wouldn't that be really boring

00:31:45.980 i don't know that this is really what i'm looking forward to and that's that doesn't sound exciting

00:31:50.500 well that's not what it's going to be it's so much more than that and we're going to have like

00:31:57.460 i mentioned physical bodies in a physical world where there is no more curse no more sorrow no

00:32:02.240 more tears and we get to enjoy that for eternity in god's presence so it'll be far better than we

00:32:08.160 can imagine um so i just i think it's important for people to think rightly about uh what what

00:32:15.440 our our future holds and this topic plays right into that um but i guess another objection i hear

00:32:21.300 to what we've been talking about this will shift the gears a little bit is joel how dare we say

00:32:26.320 that angels can create life right and you've probably heard that and well if that's your

00:32:34.420 objection good i'm glad you're thinking that because we don't want to sit here and say yes

00:32:38.120 angels are just as powerful as god that's not at all what we're saying they are created beings

00:32:41.900 but look in the mirror and if you have children ask yourself this question did you create life

00:32:49.560 you procreated and that's what we're talking about here we're not talking about creating

00:32:55.660 life from scratch from nothing we're talking about procreation um but even before you go too

00:33:01.480 far down that road people say well but they had to have created a body in order to be able to do

00:33:04.760 no remember we've already talked about how we think they have bodies but um look back at exodus

00:33:10.740 chapter 7 and this is the passage that everybody's familiar with with moses and aaron coming before

00:33:15.660 pharaoh and aaron throws down his rod and it becomes a serpent and then it says this it says

00:33:21.000 that Pharaoh called his wise men and sorcerers. So the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like

00:33:27.420 manner with their enchantments or with their dark arts through their occult abilities. Every man

00:33:33.260 threw down his rod and they became serpents. They did the same thing that God did to Aaron's staff.

00:33:41.440 Now, I'm not saying that every single fallen angel or evil spirit can do the exact same thing.

00:33:47.500 i'm not saying they can do that whenever they want but for for his purposes at this point god

00:33:53.080 allowed them to do that they had the ability to do that and of course we know what happened

00:33:57.320 aaron's rod swallowed theirs up showing that the god of israel yahweh is still more powerful than

00:34:03.060 them no matter how impressive that feat was right but but they transformed sticks rods into

00:34:11.080 serpents so i think we we have to be careful and you were i think you were talking about earlier

00:34:17.240 that we um almost like a gnostic view we it's it's weird we over spiritualize and at the same

00:34:26.980 time under spiritualize yeah it's it's like christians today modern evangelicals especially

00:34:32.320 i i've been thinking about this a lot lately i think on one hand we've adopted way too much

00:34:37.820 of darwin uh so on one hand we're like we're um we're we've been disenchanted since i think

00:34:44.620 since the Enlightenment, which the Enlightenment, I think, was really the beginning of the dark

00:34:50.620 ages of secular humanism. And the so-called dark ages, I think, actually weren't quite as dark as

00:34:57.420 our modern historians try to make them out to be, when people actually still believed in God,

00:35:02.040 or even if they weren't Christian, they believed in gods, pagans. G.K. Chesterton talks about

00:35:07.220 paganism, and C.S. Lewis says the same thing. The step from paganism to Christianity is a smaller

00:35:13.160 step, uh, than the step from Darwinian secular humanism, you know, when the, when the world has

00:35:17.840 completely lost, uh, its enchantment and the world is just material. You're just a raw materialist.

00:35:23.260 So on the one hand, I think Christians have bought that narrative of, you know, modern 0.84

00:35:27.460 post-modernism and secular humanism that, um, on one hand we've under spiritualized and we're

00:35:32.720 materialist. The world is just stuff. On the other hand, uh, it's weird. I don't know how we do it,

00:35:37.900 but we simultaneously over-spiritualize.

00:35:40.660 So anything we read in the Bible,

00:35:42.540 we think it's fantastical and spiritual,

00:35:45.800 but then we think that we live in this world

00:35:47.680 that's entirely material and physical.

00:35:50.920 And so then what we do is we just,

00:35:53.220 we create this massive chasm between heaven and earth.

00:35:57.360 What God does this here, and then what happens here,

00:36:00.560 and what happens here all can be explained

00:36:02.460 by Newton and this and that,

00:36:04.580 and there's nothing supernatural at all.

00:36:06.500 And then over there, it's, it's, there's nothing physical at all. It's all spiritual 17th dimension. And, and I think that's the framework that, that moderns Westerners have even among Christians that makes the procreation between angels and women seem preposterous.

00:36:23.500 but the ancients didn't think like that that's a fairly modern view you know that didn't happen

00:36:29.360 until you know at a certain point in church history not it didn't happen for what 400 years

00:36:35.160 for 400 years nobody even thought the sethite view wasn't it augustine that was the first

00:36:39.420 augustine was the one who popularized it you know and gotcha a couple generations before him

00:36:44.700 there are a few people who held it but yeah he popularized it and then that dominated from then

00:36:48.760 on and then calvin doesn't even have to make an argument he just says oh no that fallen angel

00:36:53.940 view we all know that's silly which is very like that's a what i would call rare uh rare calvin l

00:36:59.800 lose um because i like calvin as you know uh you know and and he usually is robust in his

00:37:06.900 argumentation for any point that he ever makes but that one um he doesn't make there's a few times

00:37:11.560 where he just kind of either throws up his hands or he just kind of mocks it because he doesn't

00:37:15.560 like it but yeah usually he does do his best to exegete the text and and so whether you agree or

00:37:21.720 disagree you can at least respect that part of it but yeah and this one he yeah but um another

00:37:27.080 passage that i think is important to think about and i think you and i would probably interpret

00:37:31.060 who this is talking about differently or how what's being referred to but in second thessalonians 2

00:37:35.360 9 it's talking about the lawless one you know a lot of times like dispensational pre-millennial

00:37:40.140 preacher would see this like the antichrist but that not even talking about that look what it

00:37:44.400 says about this the lawless one whoever or whatever that might be the coming of the lawless

00:37:49.840 one is according to the working of satan with all power signs and lying wonder so how much ability

00:37:59.080 how much power does satan have or some of these evil spiritual beings it says here all power

00:38:06.580 signs and lying wonder and say fake power and fake signs it's he's deceiving people with these

00:38:14.680 real things is what it's describing so that they do have tremendous ability and i think it's

00:38:19.860 it's dangerous for us to underestimate them but at the same time i think it's people overestimate

00:38:24.960 them as well that you know like satan they some people think satan's omnipresent that he's

00:38:30.180 he's tempting them right now and all that a lot of people think he's omniscient they think satan

00:38:34.660 can read your thoughts yeah you know i mean i think satan is better than like if a human

00:38:41.680 humans are not omniscient we can't read thoughts but if if the best human interrogator can pick up

00:38:47.200 on you know mannerisms and social cues and and be in a room with someone without them saying and

00:38:52.480 get really close and just watching them into the so i think you know satan is like you know um

00:38:57.560 you know exponentially uh more talented and perceptive like he's he's nothing to be trifled

00:39:04.820 with he satan is greater than you he's not greater than god but he you know greater is he that is in

00:39:10.080 you not you but he that is in you than he who is in the world um but so but but if it's just us

00:39:15.520 apart from god satan is is not our peer he is he is um vastly superior to us but not infinite and

00:39:20.880 And so I think Satan is very, very perceptive and very good at concluding and deriving,

00:39:31.060 deliberating our thoughts and knowing our temptations and those kinds of things.

00:39:36.360 But he, some people think like, if I just think a thought in my mind, they attribute

00:39:40.540 attributes that are exclusive to God, to Satan.

00:39:44.960 Satan is not an equal to God.

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00:41:14.440 does have power as well you look at the beginning of job he's able to call down fire from heaven

00:41:18.760 whether that's lightning or actual fire so he's able to do certain things but again it's only when

00:41:24.520 god permits it because if you think of elijah and the prophets of baal you know when they're having

00:41:30.360 this competition about lighting the the altar on fire well we according to the book of job

00:41:35.320 satan is capable of doing it so if he's there if he's one of the rebels who are there behind the

00:41:40.620 prophets of baal he can't do it that day because god's not allowing to do it that day um but he

00:41:47.540 seems to be capable of sometimes so yeah my point is we shouldn't just automatically assume we know

00:41:53.500 the abilities or capabilities of angels when the bible tells us a fair amount of some things that

00:42:00.220 they can do that are, uh, far beyond our ability. Uh, but at the same time, and what you said is

00:42:06.240 exactly right. Greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world. So we don't need to fear them,

00:42:10.260 but we do, we should have a healthy respect for them. Yeah. Amen. Um, going back one more thing

00:42:17.860 and then, and then I'll just, uh, you, you, I'll let you steer the conversation for where you want

00:42:21.420 to go next, but, um, with, with the tower of Babel and in terms of princes and principalities,

00:42:26.560 principalities, I understand that as regions, areas, and then princes being fallen angels that

00:42:34.120 were set up over, that had dominion over certain principalities and regions. With that, and this

00:42:42.420 is just another genuine question that I don't know the answer, I certainly see that being as

00:42:48.160 like regions being indicative of nations and peoples and things like that. But would there

00:42:54.920 be or possibly be uh fallen angels over the realm of the ocean that might like a philip you know

00:43:02.580 philistines that that's where you know giants ended up like goliath and his brothers you know

00:43:07.900 we know that uh joshua killed a lot of them the ones that that uh got away went to gath you know

00:43:12.660 goliath is from gath or you know in gaza and some other places and then and then later on you know

00:43:17.600 in the time of david that you have the philistines they have giants uh you know descendants from the

00:43:22.220 nephilim but then also like one of their they've got their polytheist but one of their chief gods

00:43:27.100 is a fish god dagon you know and so then i'm thinking about that and then i'm thinking about

00:43:32.860 the greeks and and maybe it's the same thing but just the greeks have a different name for them a

00:43:36.720 different conception you know but like um you know or the romans and like uh poseidon and and i'm

00:43:41.040 wondering could one of these kind of elho uh um elohim um you know sons of god uh have a not just

00:43:49.400 realm over land and and and a people group a nation but over the ocean or part of the ocean

00:43:56.920 or something what do you think about that yeah i don't i don't see why not i mean adam was given

00:44:01.320 dominion over the rule over the birds of the air the fish of the sea you know the so and the beasts

00:44:07.640 of the earth obviously so mankind was supposed to rule this earth as god's vice reasoner and yet

00:44:14.760 adam in a sense yielded that dominion that when he when he rebelled when he sinned and then what

00:44:21.740 we see at the babble event man rebels again and god puts them under the subjection of these other

00:44:28.200 entities so if if the original dominion mandate uh included the fish of the sea which it does then

00:44:36.180 yeah i don't know why they they wouldn't also have um that as well and and then going back to

00:44:43.860 what you said earlier you said you know the ability to call fire out of heaven but like like

00:44:48.540 any creature you know not just angels but in any creature only underneath the banner of the

00:44:52.500 sovereignty of god what he allows and so not able to call down fire on that particular day you know

00:44:56.840 the showdown between the prophets of baal and elijah but able to do it in the book of job

00:45:01.200 another example from the book of job is uh satan had the power to control wind oh yeah and i know

00:45:07.620 that almost sounds blasphemous because the disciples say to jesus on the boat in the middle

00:45:11.080 of the story. Who is this who has authority to where even the wind and the waves obey him?

00:45:16.100 And certainly Jesus is God. And so he has the supreme authority over the created order.

00:45:21.200 But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no other creature that he's given also that ability.

00:45:28.440 And so I'm thinking of when, just to explicitly state the example, it's when God gives permission

00:45:34.600 to Satan to torment Job, but before he has authority to afflict his body. And then later

00:45:39.000 on. He can afflict his body, but he can't kill him. But in the first phase of torment, you can 0.92

00:45:43.980 do anything to him, but you can't hurt his physical person. And one of the things that he does is he

00:45:49.060 kills all of Job's children by sending a great wind. It seems as though he has power and control 0.80

00:45:55.460 over the wind to cause the house where Job's children are to collapse on them and kill them.

00:46:01.360 And so back to my Poseidon theory, is it possible that, you know, fallen angels could have dominion over the sea, and then within that dominion over the sea, even a measure of control in what God may allow over wind and waves?

00:46:19.820 Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable.

00:46:21.660 Yeah, Job 119 is the verse that you're citing, that suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness, struck the four corners of the house.

00:46:27.860 And yeah, so I think that's entirely reasonable.

00:46:31.360 and consistent with what we see in scripture.

00:46:34.060 Cool. Poseidon is a real being, but it turns out-

00:46:38.140 All the Percy Jackson fans right now are excited.

00:46:40.600 So you heard it first, Tim Chafee, he has confirmed my theory. Poseidon is real.

00:46:45.440 That's the good news. Bad news, he's a demon. 0.99

00:46:48.640 Or Neptune for you Romans out there. 1.00

00:46:51.220 Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neptune, old Neptune. 1.00

00:46:54.260 All right, so rest of the episode, I don't have a whole lot more time,

00:46:57.900 But why don't you take 15, 20 minutes and just anything you want to talk about.

00:47:01.800 You get the objections more than I do because this is, I like this stuff, but this is your specialty.

00:47:07.660 So why don't you just cover any base that you think our listeners, after all four episodes, might still have this hanging, looming question or objection.

00:47:16.160 Get all your thoughts out.

00:47:18.580 Well, because we're not going to be able to cover everything first, you've got to buy the book, Fallen.

00:47:22.820 There you go.

00:47:23.560 Many people have.

00:47:25.020 So the sales have gone up since your videos went up.

00:47:26.840 So I like that.

00:47:27.580 Awesome.

00:47:27.900 and keep keep on supporting it i appreciate that and uh several positive reviews too so i'm glad

00:47:33.580 for that thanks for doing that hold it up one more time uh tim just because some people will

00:47:37.980 um be watching but then also let's say the name because some people only listen

00:47:41.460 yeah fallen the sons of god and the nephilim by tim chafee that's me amazon uh is that where you

00:47:48.220 want them to go on amazon or if they go to my website they can still get 15 off and a signed

00:47:53.480 copy as well. So, um, we've been, we've seen increase in sales in both. So that's, that's

00:47:58.080 great. Um, so one thing you and I talked about before we came on, we talked about how there

00:48:01.980 were no, um, female angels, but we do think that there probably were female giants or

00:48:07.120 I think there probably were. Um, so the reason for that is, uh, first the Bible never says

00:48:14.200 they're, they're not, that doesn't, that there aren't. So it doesn't, that doesn't prove

00:48:18.420 there were, but it does talk about certain clans like the Emim and the Zuzim. It talks about how

00:48:24.540 they were a people as great and as tall as the Anakim. So as a people group, they were tall.

00:48:31.800 And of course, if there's going to be an entire clan where they're perpetuating these giants,

00:48:37.320 you need females as part of that. As we've talked about, you need male and female. So it seems as

00:48:42.040 if the entire people group were giants, meaning that there would be female giants.

00:48:46.300 um maybe a parallel speaking of greek mythology like we were just talking about um you had the

00:48:52.480 amazons uh who were like these demigods goddesses um they they were often considered to be a giant

00:49:00.740 tesses um the we talked about before with the potential connection to like the odyssey

00:49:06.800 uh when he when his men land on the when he goes to the island of listrigonians there are

00:49:12.200 giantesses there that are described um again that doesn't prove my point but it's just it's

00:49:18.520 completely consistent with it um so and you have that in other mythologies as well that

00:49:24.220 seem to i think what we're seeing in some of these mythologies are um distorted echoes of

00:49:32.200 what really took place on this planet in some cases so when you have the gods coming down and

00:49:37.400 marrying women and having demigods the giants and everything i i think that is going right back to

00:49:43.260 what happened in genesis 6 and also afterward after the flood and so some people will look

00:49:48.220 at that and say well you're just borrowing from greek mythology aren't you sam i mean this whole

00:49:51.580 fallen angel view that's just copying greek mythology actually it's the other way around

00:49:54.700 that's right and what i found to be really ironic well let me i wouldn't say quite the other way

00:50:01.460 around it's not what both are describing what really happened one is describing it perfectly

00:50:08.100 accurately because it's part of god's inspired word that's the bible the other one is the distorted

00:50:12.660 version of that that's been passed down generation after generation after generation and it gets

00:50:17.320 distorted a little bit and embellished but what i found really interesting is a lot of times that

00:50:22.160 people who hold the seth eye view they'll use this objection that oh you're just borrowing greek

00:50:26.240 mythology actually the shoe is on the other foot because what we are doing is just interpreting

00:50:33.140 the text for what it says and we don't have to spiritualize the meaning of anything that we

00:50:36.700 don't have to look for a non-straightforward meaning on this passage and what's happening

00:50:42.260 is that in so many of these cases they're resorting to allegorizing the text well where

00:50:47.500 did allegory as a hermeneutic come from and you can trace it back to the greek philosophers in

00:50:55.180 about the sixth century bc and there's a book by i think his name is luke bassan he there was his

00:51:02.120 um he's a french guy that was his dissertation um but it was called how philosophy saved myth

00:51:08.980 and what he was talking about is the the philosophers in the sixth and fifth centuries bc

00:51:13.940 uh the greek philosophers that the greek people loved homer and he see how this was in a sense

00:51:19.480 their bible this was their story of origins this is what happened in the past this is where they

00:51:24.580 came from and they didn't want to get rid of those stories because as people started to become more

00:51:29.440 and more modern and realize that um some of these things sound a little ridiculous and we do we

00:51:35.700 really like the idea of zeus coming down and marrying and and having offspring with this

00:51:39.720 woman and yet he's supposed to be with hera and then no he's also going down and having an affair

00:51:43.480 here and now an affair here and they don't seem like the most moral of characters so people started

00:51:49.860 to disbelieve in them and so what the philosophers did is they invented this new hermeneutic which

00:51:56.160 is that you allegorize it you've changed zeus isn't really a god he's just now this horse he

00:52:02.520 is now he stands in for something else so that way we can keep the stories of homer and hesiod

00:52:07.260 and we can still enjoy them but we understand it's not real it's not reality in any way we

00:52:13.440 just reinterpreted it means something else and then of course that idea that kind of philosophy

00:52:18.960 made its way to alexandria which is where a lot of this allegorical interpretation came from and

00:52:25.140 the augustine got that from ambrose that whole approach and so you the the setite view is actually

00:52:35.400 the one that is borrowing from greek mythology and so it's very ironic i know that might have

00:52:40.460 sounded around a roundabout way to get there but the the fallen angel view is a very straight

00:52:45.120 forward view which is why it was the earliest view and the only view that we know of during

00:52:49.700 the intertestamental period and the first couple centuries of the church which is straightforward

00:52:55.040 so yeah that's really good any uh other things you want to add any other loopholes you want to

00:53:01.000 try to close um yeah so i get a lot of people asking about some of the modern things that we

00:53:07.940 see and you know tim i'd really like your thoughts on this even after you know hearing what we've

00:53:13.100 talked about um and i said my goal was to create or to write what was really the most detailed or

00:53:19.120 most serious bible study on this topic available not to get into all of the sensationalism and

00:53:24.720 so people will still say okay but what do you think about these modern reports of giants like

00:53:29.460 the kandahar giant um this report that back in 2002 in afghanistan uh it's pretty cool i'm not

00:53:36.200 gonna lie it's a really cool story i'm not saying it's true i'm rooting for it i know it's it's not

00:53:41.020 plausible but go ahead yeah yeah it's it's it's a cool story these other than some of our servicemen

00:53:47.200 were killed that's not great right yeah yeah you're right yeah yeah so the idea is that they

00:53:50.920 they encountered up in the mountains of afghanistan this this 13 to 16 foot giant who

00:53:55.700 killed a couple of them and then they had to shoot at them with you know the machine guns for 30

00:53:59.260 seconds before they finally dropped them and then of course the military came and whisked them away

00:54:03.220 and nobody knows what happened to the body okay and of course they described with six fingers and

00:54:08.420 six toes which just so everybody knows the bible does not say all the giants have six fingers and

00:54:13.440 six toes there is one man described that way in the bible and he is a giant but people today are

00:54:20.820 who are not giants are born with either six fingers or six toes it's just called polydactyly

00:54:25.960 and there are a lot of examples you can look at x-rays of it it looks really weird um i i think

00:54:30.680 we've all seen it before on the prince's bride right the six finger man count rugan um but it's

00:54:36.320 just a it's something that happens it's just a genetic duplication and it's usually like the

00:54:40.600 the ring finger gets duplicated say of two of those and but it could be one of the other fingers as

00:54:46.240 well so yeah giants didn't have to be like that the same thing sort of like with the solomon island

00:54:50.880 giants people ask about that solomon islands are pretty remote kind of in between uh australia and

00:54:56.660 fiji a little bit north of that and there are reports of these giants living in caves in the

00:55:03.140 inner parts of the island and nobody goes there because they disappear and or they get eaten but

00:55:08.020 again i'm not opposed to the idea that there could still be some remnants of giants existing

00:55:14.760 because i think giants did exist on this earth and i think the bible describes that but in this

00:55:19.600 day and age when we have cell phones and so many people no matter which country whether your first

00:55:24.060 world second world third world so many people have cell phones with cameras somebody somewhere

00:55:28.280 at some time or with a drone could get pretty good footage if these i think could get good

00:55:34.140 footage if these are are still these people are still around um so until i have some hard evidence

00:55:40.620 of that rather than just anecdotal evidence on the internet um right i'm i'm not going to base

00:55:48.460 my arguments on this at all um i'd rather just see what the bible says and if it says there were

00:55:53.200 giants okay there are giants right yeah that's our position what we're convicted of is that there

00:55:59.300 were giants what i'm open to is that there might still be giants but my argument is not that uh

00:56:04.800 there were giants and that's what the bible says because i can show you giants today no my my

00:56:09.180 argument is there were giants because the bible says there were giants yeah and i would have you

00:56:14.520 know i think you and i would probably share this as well it's a little bit different topic but it's

00:56:18.340 same idea that you know there's some people who think there are maybe some dinosaurs existing

00:56:22.220 somewhere in remote places like in the Likawala swamp of Cameroon and the Congo you know it's

00:56:28.140 this huge unexplored area and there are reports of it well again somebody get really good footage

00:56:33.840 of it and maybe I would go for it it wouldn't be surprising to me I as a young earth creations

00:56:38.600 dinosaurs were on the ark and they got off the ark and they didn't live that long ago I think

00:56:43.680 they're probably extinct but maybe there's still a few around I don't need them around to believe

00:56:48.960 it that that they were there and that they were on the ark but um yeah so i think that's a very

00:56:53.700 similar idea we because this scriptures tell us something we believe that to be true and as a

00:56:59.460 result yeah this could still be going on but let's not let's not focus on the modern um sensational

00:57:07.700 idea like some people do those are the youtube videos that get a lot of views it's true if i

00:57:14.400 made a video that said i saw the island the giants on solomon island then i'd probably get a lot of

00:57:19.020 views but um i'd rather focus on what scripture says same thing goes for the the reports about

00:57:24.460 north american giants in the 1800s and early 1900s six fingers six toes red hair double rose

00:57:30.000 teeth it's very similar to these other ones again plausible within the realm of possibility sure

00:57:35.420 do i really think they were there i not i don't think so but maybe i yeah it's it's not a big

00:57:43.500 deal with me one way or the other um or related to that did you know some people think that we

00:57:48.560 need the nephilim because they built like the great pyramid right we need really big people

00:57:52.880 to build really big things well no you you need smart people ingenious people to build really big

00:58:00.340 things um people are people who do construction and figure things out like this are very intelligent

00:58:09.180 and they are capable of of doing things that are my mind doesn't work that way um i watched

00:58:15.580 the demonstration of how maybe they would have got some of the obelisks up you know if you've

00:58:18.800 seen the movie the ten commandments you have the push pull man you have you know 10 000 people

00:58:22.540 getting ready to move the stone and one demonstration was what if they just use a

00:58:26.400 giant kite and use wind power and you just cut the rope at the right time then you just think

00:58:31.440 you worked smarter not harder and uh maybe that is how they did things now i'm not saying just

00:58:37.780 in every case but um over in israel you can see in certain locations um oh what's the name of the

00:58:46.320 city that we visited the ruins that we visited um there is a i think it's bet shien it just it's

00:58:53.180 just south of galilee of the sea of galilee and um pretty close just east of mount gilboa there's

00:58:59.620 a place where you can see um like this almost like the how they would have moved the big stones that

00:59:06.400 you see down in the western wall and everything um the ashlar stones during herod's time they

00:59:12.600 would actually build the wheels around them and then stones become the axle

00:59:16.060 so that's how you move something really big well my mind wouldn't have i thought how do we get

00:59:22.340 enough people to lift this thing up and carry it or roll it across logs or something well how about

00:59:26.960 you just make that the axle and you roll it so yeah people are creative we don't have to think

00:59:33.400 that really big people needed to be here to move these really big things yeah that's a really good

00:59:40.220 point um yeah it's entirely possible the giants uh did set up stone hinge or something like that

00:59:45.180 but but it's not yeah i'm not yeah and i should say i should clarify i'm not saying that they

00:59:49.160 didn't help obviously if you have somebody who's four times the strength that could help

00:59:52.640 that's helpful so that's possible but you're right it's not uh absolutely necessary and

00:59:57.320 but you know so whether it was giant you know it may have been giants or it may have been just

01:00:01.320 know-how, ingenuity, which is possible just because man's created in the image of God. And

01:00:06.420 contrary to popular belief, we're not the first generation of intelligent people. In fact, I would

01:00:12.500 argue our generation is kind of a little bit dumber than I would like. And I think some past 0.99

01:00:17.920 generations were actually smarter than us. We may have more access to technology and things like

01:00:21.560 that, but I don't think that we're necessarily smarter. So there were genius people in the

01:00:26.440 antediluvian age and geniuses after. And also I was going to say whether giants aided and helped

01:00:32.960 or whether fallen angels taught their offspring and then descendants taught them certain techniques

01:00:39.780 and skills and tricks of the trade and carried down, passed down certain technologies that

01:00:48.640 allowed without the aid of giants, giants still existing, but without the aid of giants, just

01:00:54.140 having knowledge of, of certain, um, engineering and mechanics and physics, uh, to be able to make

01:01:00.980 things happen. That's entirely possible. And, um, in terms of just, uh, so knowledge and fallen

01:01:06.920 angels passing down knowledge and then man himself being created in God's image and being smart and

01:01:11.080 having certain people that were genius, just like we have today, certain people that are really

01:01:14.300 smart. Um, and then also, um, uh, giants is possible could, could come to the aid, um, with

01:01:20.660 certain things. And then the last thing I was going to say, also just sheer numbers. You could

01:01:24.420 have just a lot of people, you know, moving like, you know, you know, in Charles Heston, you know,

01:01:29.780 like, you know, the 10 commandments, like just a lot of people moving something big. And with

01:01:35.820 that, you know, in ancient civilizations, I think that's another thing. Number one,

01:01:39.640 we're not the first generation to be smart. But I also have a sneaking suspicion. This one,

01:01:44.220 I can't prove as much, but I have a sneaking suspicion that we're not the first generation

01:01:48.120 to be, uh, large numerically. Um, I, I, I understand statistically, um, in terms of,

01:01:55.800 um, you know, uh, the entire population combined, a cumulative, uh, population of people up until

01:02:02.900 the time of Christ, you know, a lot of people argue being relatively small. Um, I, I think

01:02:07.780 that's true if we're saying post flood to the time of Christ. Um, I think that's true. Looking,

01:02:13.660 looking at the population how it's exponentially grown and sadly the west needs to be fruitful

01:02:19.480 multiply because we're starting to shrink but um but i do have some suspicions just speculation

01:02:25.860 ideas about um you know before the flood uh with you know in the case of adam and several

01:02:31.980 900 year plus lifespans and um and in terms of fertility there's there's nothing in the bible

01:02:38.320 that tells us you know that a woman is you know like eve is you know we don't know i mean she

01:02:42.980 could have lived for 700 years, 800 years. Um, and she could have been fertile for 600 years

01:02:48.220 and, um, they're being fruitful and multiply. Like we, you know, I mean, Adam and Eve, you know,

01:02:53.500 had other sons and daughters. We don't know how many, it could have been seven other sons and

01:02:56.860 daughters. It could have been, um, yeah, 70, it could have been a couple of hundred, you know,

01:03:02.520 and that's just one couple. And, you know, and then span that out and exponentially, I heard

01:03:07.960 one guy, and I'm not even saying this is true, but I heard one guy, his estimation, he did like

01:03:12.780 some it was just it was intriguing i don't know if it was true but it was intriguing the way he

01:03:16.420 did the numbers and said that there could have been 11 billion people in the 1500 year time

01:03:21.780 period from adam to the flood uh a larger population than today that's crazy go ahead

01:03:28.560 we have calculations at the ark showing even if you use the modern growth rate you would get to

01:03:34.420 uh trying to remember what number it's like 400 million but even if you go up just like one

01:03:38.100 tenth of one percent suddenly you're up into like the four billion range and then wow you go up one

01:03:43.580 tenth you get like 18 billion or some crazy number um so it's very possible they had a high

01:03:48.460 population before the flood so it could be with a margin of error 400 million to 18 billion yes

01:03:56.220 yeah if i remember the numbers correctly but it's just it doesn't take much when you got

01:04:01.720 exponential growth to so giants could could build pyramids but also um a few million people working

01:04:09.960 together that's you know that's also uh pretty pretty yeah and i would say pyramids are post

01:04:14.820 flood but yeah they absolutely they could right yeah yeah um i know we're running low on time i

01:04:20.140 got one other thing i wanted to real quickly bring up because i hear this all the time like oh

01:04:23.500 yeah i believe in giants too i see them playing on tv in the nba that is not what we're talking

01:04:27.820 about really tall people today are not what we're talking about um you know you look at the the tv

01:04:32.940 shows there was like the tallest people on earth and um i i knew the the guy who was the tallest

01:04:38.160 person in america for several years until he passed away about three years ago i um igor

01:04:43.920 vav kavinsky his name was he used to when he was 13 he was my height and he used to come into the

01:04:47.780 store that i worked at and i talked to him a few times and um he ended up being like 7 7 11 i think

01:04:53.440 you got to or something and um but um that is not what we're talking about somebody who's got a

01:04:59.940 growth on the pituitary gland or something you know some tumor that causes them to grow

01:05:04.440 super fast and they're trying to doctor they're trying to slow the growth or maybe it's

01:05:07.940 marfan syndrome where usually that affects the the joints and it allows people to get

01:05:12.720 taller but not super tall maybe they're more like six five six six but then a lot of times

01:05:17.700 they're weaker as a result too but we're talking about people who are warriors people who are

01:05:22.000 sons of other giants whereas in these cases they're not um it's not something that is passed

01:05:28.460 down generation after generation it's just one um mutation or something that has caused

01:05:33.740 that particular person so what the bible is describing something very different uh people

01:05:38.220 who are not necessarily awkward or clumsy or uh gonna die at a very early age because of their

01:05:43.720 size or something um their their entire clans or groups of people and generation after generation

01:05:50.720 who are giants i okay one final question for me this just came to my mind it's random but if angels

01:05:58.860 male physical angels could procreate with female physical human beings could one of those fallen

01:06:06.660 angels if he sticks around um could he then or another fallen angel who didn't sire this

01:06:15.640 particular nephilim another fallen angel then mate with a female nephilim to where the angel

01:06:23.260 gene pool is now at 75 instead of 50 yeah that's that's interesting i don't know why they wouldn't

01:06:29.880 be capable of doing that i mean i i don't look at in terms of like the percentage of the gene pool

01:06:35.060 is i mean maybe that's a good way to look at i because i think that they are also made in god's

01:06:41.300 image we talked about how it's not like a one kind of an elephant and a different animal all

01:06:46.040 together but sort of the same sort of animal same sort of creature right and so i i tend when it

01:06:51.760 calls them men every now and i tend to think of them as being fully human um but different because

01:06:58.100 of their parentage um but if that if what you're describing is the right way and a lot of people

01:07:02.980 who hold the fallen angel view do look at it that way um yeah why wouldn't you be able to get 75 or

01:07:08.080 next generation 88 or something exactly exactly and the only reason i'm asking that is i and i

01:07:13.480 know that this is something that you would disagree with but which is totally fine your

01:07:17.780 position is makes a lot of sense but it would be possible if the angels are you know and this may

01:07:22.820 you know i think part of it deals with you know the intent and purpose of the angels and why

01:07:27.400 they're doing this in the first place um you know but if if part of what they're trying to do is is

01:07:32.500 just completely pervert you know god's creation and those kinds of things um but also create

01:07:37.520 a monster um then you know i i wonder if you know maybe nephilim 1.0 you know 50 50 angel human

01:07:47.100 is you know and then their descendants being giants is you know gives you eight foot giants

01:07:52.400 you know a nine foot giant you know like like um goliath but i wonder if you can up that angel

01:07:58.500 percentage dna and if you really could get tall as cedars and not as a metaphor but you know maybe

01:08:06.180 not 120 but i've i've read some you know i've done some reading where you know particular cedars in

01:08:11.400 a mesopotamia you know uh region um you know is you know 40 50 i don't know i'm just throwing it

01:08:18.800 out there may not be possible that's a good teaser for our last episode isn't it that's

01:08:23.060 yeah we can leave it on that yeah it's an interesting thought i mean i um i haven't really

01:08:28.520 thought too much about it because of how i how i viewed the the situation um well and i don't

01:08:35.000 think that's your calling. I think like, I love, I I'm so appreciative. I think it's our last

01:08:39.420 episode, the end of our last episode. So I want to end by at least saying this, I'm so appreciative

01:08:43.660 of your work. And I think, uh, the, the focus of your work is to make a strongly biblical

01:08:50.200 and plausible argument for why this is not fantastical. You're not the guy who's doing

01:08:56.320 the YouTube videos of the, of, um, the, you know, uh, 3000 L's, you know, like the, you know, the,

01:09:03.080 the giant, you know, where, where mountains plateaus are just tree stumps that giants who

01:09:08.060 were seven miles tall, like, you know, that's fun. It's intriguing, you know, like, you know,

01:09:13.020 but you're not that guy. And, and my point is like, we need you. We need the guy who makes

01:09:20.020 a very reasonable, plausible, and most importantly, biblical argument for taking the Bible seriously.

01:09:27.640 And I think that's what you've done. So I'll be the guy who tries to think of a creative way to

01:09:31.700 get to a 40 foot tall giant because it just sounds awesome and i think it's possible but you'd be the

01:09:36.020 guy who does what you do you know i think both are needed and i appreciate those kind words i really

01:09:39.860 do um about about me about the book um but sometimes we do because we can be too careful

01:09:45.740 sometimes we don't think outside the box enough to so it is helpful to have people get very

01:09:50.060 creative and think i wonder if this and then one day and i think michael heiser was good at this

01:09:55.700 but you know he was within the academic community here's a guy who's super smart saying things that

01:10:00.920 Most academics didn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole, and I'm not saying that he was right all the time, but he was talking about some of the weird things that most people, oh, I don't want to talk about that.

01:10:10.200 Well, a lot of people are super curious about this, and a lot of unbelievers are very curious. 0.99

01:10:15.200 Believers are curious.

01:10:16.480 Why would we not want to go where they are and try to talk about the things they're talking about and understand their world, their worldview, and somehow, someway, connect them to the gospel and help them see the truth?

01:10:28.960 Amen.

01:10:29.400 And especially in our day and age where I really think like, sure, technology continues to develop and improve and all these kinds of things.

01:10:36.960 Yet at the same time, though, in terms of worldviews, it is becoming increasingly evident and blatantly obvious to even unbelievers that secular humanism is, that dog won't hunt.

01:10:51.040 It's not holding up.

01:10:52.840 And that I think in some ways the world is being re-enchanted.

01:10:57.520 The dark enchantment of materialism is starting to fade.

01:11:03.440 We're starting to see that it just, it doesn't work.

01:11:05.480 It's not true that Darwin was a hack and always was.

01:11:09.640 And so as the world is becoming more enchanted, I think,

01:11:13.940 that I see, I don't know about you,

01:11:15.380 but I see like a phenomenon happening right now,

01:11:18.060 a trend of a exponentially growing infatuation

01:11:21.940 and interest in the supernatural. 0.59

01:11:23.740 And if Christians, out of some desire to be sophisticated and buttoned up in ivory tower, if out of a desire to impress the secular humanist, the scientist who always picked on us, I feel like some creation guys are still trying to get the approval of that atheist scientist.

01:11:44.700 You're never going to get it. They think you're stupid. Who cares? But if we keep trying to stand 1.00

01:11:48.840 in that space and be legitimate, legitimate, incredible in the secular humanism space,

01:11:54.340 meanwhile, the culture is realizing that that space isn't worth listening to and they're

01:11:59.480 getting enchanted. But by the time they get enchanted, we've successfully moved Christianity

01:12:05.800 over to this very reasonable, materialistic, natural position. And we've taken all the 0.94

01:12:12.960 enchantment out of Christianity, but the people actually want enchanted worldviews again, then 0.80

01:12:18.800 the only options they'll have available to them will be the occult and paganism. And I want to 0.83

01:12:25.440 say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Christianity, yeah, I'm a Christian. I believe in dragons. I believe

01:12:31.020 in giants. I believe in fallen angels. I believe in, I personally, I believe that there were

01:12:37.920 unicorns. Sirens is in the King James version. And I think there's some creative things to do

01:12:42.900 with that. And in the wilderness, I don't think it was just snakes, seraphs, and fire. I think

01:12:48.980 dragons were maybe biting people. And you can't get any more fantastical than this magical world

01:12:56.100 that God made. Yeah. And, you know, the world may call us foolish, but if the Lord says,

01:13:02.940 well done, good and faithful servant, that's really what matters. And, you know, Paul talked

01:13:06.180 in first corinthians 4 that he said we are fools for christ's sake okay well if the world thinks

01:13:11.560 i'm a fool for believing in the risen lord and savior and then what his word said so be it i'm 0.68

01:13:15.980 a fool i don't i don't care because i just want to hear him say well done good and faithful servant 0.90

01:13:20.300 and um so i appreciate having the opportunity to talk about this and i appreciate your um 0.94

01:13:26.480 to have me on and and discussing these and making me think through some of these things that in a

01:13:31.720 maybe the more speculative that i haven't necessarily gone down it's fun to to talk

01:13:36.800 about it and i guess just to speak to the maybe the listeners real quickly just um dig in dive

01:13:42.900 into god's word and hold that up as the authority um and this is not something that we have to split

01:13:48.780 the church on you know i i see those kind of comments too that uh what a heretic you know

01:13:54.220 because of a different view on the fallen angel i don't know this i come on it could be wrong but

01:13:59.940 That's not heresy.

01:14:02.900 Yeah.

01:14:03.620 Well, Tim, thank you so much.

01:14:04.960 It's an honor.

01:14:05.860 I'll let you go.

01:14:06.760 And I hope that our listeners have enjoyed.

01:14:08.740 All right.

01:14:09.220 Joel, thanks so much for having me.

01:14:10.240 God bless you.

01:14:11.220 God bless.

The NXR Podcast - February 12, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - Can Angels Procreate With Women？ w Dr. Tim Chaffey

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