The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - How Fallen Angels Biologically-Engineered The Giants w Dr. Tim Chaffey

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00:00:27.500 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:31.060 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:34.100 And in this episode, I am welcoming back for the third time, a returning guest, Dr. Tim Chafee.

00:00:40.500 Tim, thanks for coming back.

00:00:42.480 Hey, it's my privilege, Joel. Thanks for having me on again.

00:00:45.280 Absolutely. So for those of you who are maybe just tuning in,

00:00:48.260 you haven't seen our previous episodes, here's the plan.

00:00:50.820 We are doing a mini four-part series covering Tim's book,

00:00:55.680 which i have with me here it is oh he's got it too

00:01:00.420 where real quick where's it available just so that our listeners can go check it out

00:01:05.560 yeah you can find it on amazon or you can go to my website which is risen ministries uh risen

00:01:10.600 min.com and i believe if you use a code uh nephilim all capitals you can get 15 off great

00:01:18.240 so uh for those who are listening on podcast i just realized that i held up the book and so did

00:01:22.760 him, but I didn't actually say the name. It's called Fallen, the Sons of God and the Nephilim.

00:01:28.280 Fallen, the Sons of God and the Nephilim. So you can check out the book. What we're doing is we're

00:01:32.820 giving a just, you know, obviously we're not getting, it's like a 500 page book. So it is,

00:01:37.280 it is not a light reading and he's put a lot of work into it. And in four episodes,

00:01:43.180 there's no possible way that we can cover all of that ground, but we're giving kind of a

00:01:47.300 bird's eye view, you know, synopsis version in this four part series. And what we're doing

00:01:51.960 is part one, if you want to go back and watch that, was the origins of the Nephilim, covering

00:01:58.500 the three primary most popular views, the Sethite view, the fallen angel view, the royal view.

00:02:03.760 And then part two was addressing how in the world could the Nephilim survive the flood? And wasn't

00:02:09.360 that the whole purpose of God sending the flood was to wipe them out? And so we talked about how

00:02:13.360 do we have Nephilim on the earth in those days before the flood, the days of Noah and after.

00:02:17.560 And then episode three, we're now going to be talking about the giants, and particularly we're going to focus our attention on answering probably the biggest question that people usually use as their main objection to this fallen angel view.

00:02:31.960 The fallen angels, sons of God being angels, procreating with daughters of men and forming Nephilim that then come giants.

00:02:40.380 The biggest objection is, well, angels can't procreate with women.

00:02:43.160 So we're going to address that today and then just address the giants in general and talk about different clans of giants and those kinds of things.

00:02:51.100 And then our final episode four, that'll be the next episode after this, will be a catch-all where we address questions that we've been getting into YouTube comments and things that you might want answered.

00:03:03.300 We'll use that as kind of a Q&A catch-all episode as the fourth part.

00:03:07.240 So four-part miniseries. First part is the three popular origins, different views for how the

00:03:12.920 Nephilim originated in the first place. Second is how do they survive or return after the flood,

00:03:18.360 and today is giants and addressing angels, fallen angels procreating with women. So all that being

00:03:25.300 said, let's go ahead and hear from Tim, and I think we should maybe just start right there. Tim,

00:03:30.940 how is it that angelic beings could procreate with humans?

00:03:37.980 Well, great question.

00:03:40.560 Obviously, and we talked about it a little bit before the show, the Bible didn't give us a biology lesson on that and give us all the details of how they could.

00:03:50.040 But it does tell us in this passage in Genesis 6, 1 through 4, if we're interpreting it correctly, it's telling us that they did.

00:03:56.900 And so scripture doesn't always tell us the how of certain things, especially when it comes to the supernatural or the preternatural.

00:04:04.320 some people prefer that terminology um but it it just tells us this this did happen um but the

00:04:10.960 there are some people who uh like john macarthur and some others who would uh have taken the view

00:04:16.500 that's kind of a combination between the fallen angel view and uh one of the natural views where

00:04:22.500 it's a demons possessed men and then they did this um i don't hold that view because it doesn't it

00:04:28.440 doesn't tell us that it just says the sons of god uh took wives that they were the ones doing it

00:04:33.580 and the the result of that was something unique with the nephilim and so i don't know that a

00:04:40.520 demon-possessed person uh having a relationship with a demon-possessed man having a relationship

00:04:46.420 with a woman would produce anything uh abnormal yeah at the biological level yeah it would still

00:04:52.880 it would be a possessed man but it would still be um biologically his his you know physically it

00:04:59.120 would still just be a man right yeah so i think something unique is happening here where it is

00:05:03.960 angels manifesting in obviously rebellious angels i'm not saying these are good ones doing what

00:05:09.260 they're supposed to be doing no they're they're they're leaving their proper abode as jude talks

00:05:13.040 about and they are cohabiting with women and uh producing offspring so i think they take on human

00:05:20.840 formed, just like you see in Genesis 18, where the two angels came with the Lord. They talked

00:05:25.740 to Abraham for a little bit, and then the Lord talks with Abraham. Then the two angels go down

00:05:28.900 to Sodom to get Lot out of there. They can take him by the hand and drag him out of the city.

00:05:34.280 And the men of the city saw them and apparently viewed them as men because they wanted to molest

00:05:41.380 them. Of course, they were wicked people there. So I think you have examples there where they're

00:05:49.240 able to eat and drink with Abraham and they're able to grab a lot by the hand and so that they

00:05:55.120 perform human functions. And why would we assume that they can't do more than just that?

00:06:02.200 Right. Yep. They eat. Yeah. There's human function happening. With that, I'm thinking of,

00:06:11.820 well, I'm thinking a little bit about just angels in general. You and I were talking offline and

00:06:16.400 I'd love to pick your brain about this for a moment, but, um, are there, are there any

00:06:21.280 female angels that the Bible references?

00:06:23.820 Cause it seems as though every single time an angel manifests, like in the case of Lot

00:06:29.200 or the three angels and one of them is the angel of the Lord.

00:06:33.000 And so my, my view is that, you know, one of those was maybe Christ not incarnate.

00:06:37.900 It would be before the, um, the, you know, uh, Christ, you know, uh, coming to earth,

00:06:43.200 in taking on flesh, but maybe a theophany or a Christophany of Christ. Same thing as a fourth

00:06:51.520 man, one who looked as though he was a son of God in the fire. So I think of Shadrach, Meshach,

00:06:58.300 and Abednego, same kind of thing. I think that that was likely Jesus, a Christophany.

00:07:03.980 But in the case of the three angels, one of them being the angel of the Lord who visits Abraham,

00:07:09.440 or the angels with Lot, or just, you know, Michael, Gabriel, multiple instances of angels

00:07:16.540 in the Bible, they all seem to be male. Can you speak to that a little bit? Are there female

00:07:22.340 angels or, you know, what do you think? Yeah, I think that's a good question too. And sometimes

00:07:27.380 the Bible may just be silent on something or maybe it doesn't give us enough information to be

00:07:33.080 um certain about it uh but gabriel is a good example of what the last question too when he

00:07:40.040 appears to daniel it says in daniel 9 the man gabriel came to me well he appears in the form

00:07:45.300 of a man and he's called a man uh the angels at the tomb uh that first easter morning uh it says

00:07:51.500 in mark's gospel and also in luke talk refer to them as men right of course we know they were

00:07:57.440 angels and i think doesn't act do that as well i can't remember the ascension at the yeah oh yeah

00:08:03.540 but these are they're angels and so they appear as men and can be described that way but as far

00:08:11.680 as whether there are any female ones um the only reference is zachariah right but it doesn't seem

00:08:18.200 to be a positive reference and we can flesh that out you know but but go ahead and share with me

00:08:22.180 and our listeners what we were talking about earlier yeah so in zachariah you have this vision

00:08:26.860 of the basket that is carried by two storks to to babble on and it's um you know there are

00:08:34.680 different ways to interpret that but let's just focus on the vision itself a little bit

00:08:37.980 um it refers to them in a feminine form so that as as female um and most people think these are

00:08:46.940 representing demons at that point so you would have two d two demonic spirits that they happen

00:08:54.060 to be fallen angels as we talked about last week then that would possibly be some sort of allusion

00:09:00.180 or reference to maybe some angels were are spoken of in the in the feminine um it's also just a

00:09:08.580 vision and so i don't want sometimes you got to be careful to read too much into it and uh if

00:09:14.940 demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim that we talked about last week is or last in our

00:09:22.920 last episode then that i guess that wouldn't necessarily show whether there were angels that

00:09:27.960 are female but just that some of the the nephilim maybe would have been um so i think that's about

00:09:34.600 as far as you can go on that passage but you do have the at what are the hebrews is it chapter

00:09:39.000 13 where it talks about how we should be hospitable to strangers because some people

00:09:44.520 have entertained angels unaware um that obviously abraham was entertaining uh i agree with you this

00:09:52.700 likely a theophany or christophany there and then two angels uh but i don't know that he was unaware

00:09:58.060 of that so i think it's referring to other people have at times encountered angelic messengers and

00:10:05.080 welcomed them and um for who knows what purpose obviously god has a purpose in doing it uh

00:10:12.320 maybe perhaps they could appear in female form that we just aren't given a clear example where

00:10:18.800 they, they have been or where they did. Right. Um, one thing that's, I find interesting about

00:10:25.320 angelic beings is that there's no, there's no, um, as far as we can tell, there's no federal

00:10:31.660 headship. Um, like we have, you know, we have families, uh, here on earth with human beings

00:10:38.080 and animal kind, you know, that there are, um, even among lions, you know, there would be a pride,

00:10:43.820 you know, and, uh, there's always going to be, you know, silverback gorillas or a wolf pack or

00:10:48.480 there's, there's a head and it's male. It's always going, you know, it's male. And so

00:10:53.440 with us, you know, we have posterity. We have our descendants, our children and grandchildren,

00:10:59.780 great grandchildren. But with angelic beings, it doesn't seem as there's any, there may still be

00:11:06.180 hierarchy among angelic beings, but there's not a federal headship where when Adam fell,

00:11:12.140 all his posterity fell with him. Whereas angels, it seems like if they are to fall, they, you know,

00:11:17.820 that one angel falling wouldn't cause the whole angelic race for lack of a

00:11:22.260 better phrase to fall with that particular angel.

00:11:24.860 Um,

00:11:25.300 but that each angel.

00:11:26.400 Yeah.

00:11:26.480 I heard,

00:11:26.820 I heard one person put it this way.

00:11:28.200 They,

00:11:28.400 each angel is species unique,

00:11:30.300 which I thought that was a interesting way to think of them because you're

00:11:34.800 right.

00:11:35.120 When,

00:11:35.760 when Satan rebels,

00:11:37.480 it doesn't mean Michael does as well.

00:11:39.320 It doesn't mean the rest of them that they,

00:11:42.100 they make that decision whether they're going to or not.

00:11:45.160 Right.

00:11:46.060 Yeah.

00:11:46.540 So there's not that federal headship and it seems as though, you know, multiple particular,

00:11:51.820 you know, a possible motivations.

00:11:53.560 And so this does get into speculation, but in terms of why angels would want to procreate

00:11:58.840 with the daughters of men, um, one of the, I was going to say earlier, one of the reasons

00:12:03.060 why I find it not very compelling that it's simply angels possessing, um, human men, um,

00:12:12.020 is because I think that one of their purposes was to, um, to corrupt the, the seed. It was to

00:12:19.080 thwart this messianic promise that, you know, that, that, you know, God spoke in the garden

00:12:23.900 and the serpent was there and, uh, spoke that, you know, that your seed, the seed of the woman

00:12:28.400 would crush, uh, one day crush his head. He's going to strike, uh, your, your seeds heal,

00:12:33.720 your offspring's healed. There'll be imminently between your offspring and his, and he, you know,

00:12:38.540 the serpent will strike his heel, but he, your seed will crush his head. And so Satan had this

00:12:45.620 understanding, this knowledge that through the woman, through the human line, eventually there

00:12:52.040 would be a child who would be his ultimate destruction. And so the idea of just possessing

00:13:00.480 a human being, a man, to then procreate with a human woman, you know, there could be negative

00:13:07.880 influence negative moral influence and you know these kinds of things but it wouldn't it wouldn't

00:13:12.440 uh at in a in an ontological objective sense thwart the the promise the the line the messianic

00:13:19.600 line from which you know christ would one day come uh but if if it's actually uh angelic seed

00:13:26.460 and a hybrid is and it's not even fully human anymore at this point um then that would uh pose

00:13:33.360 a threat to a messianic human man child that would be the ultimate demise of Satan. So I think that

00:13:40.960 that, I just think that that's one of the chief motivations for why these sons of God, fallen

00:13:45.180 angels did what they did. I don't think it was just to, you know, for pleasure or just to

00:13:52.660 negatively influence humanity and tempt them to certain various forms of sin. I think there was

00:13:58.120 an objective strategic aim of stopping the messianic promise. What do you think about that?

00:14:03.360 yeah i think that's very possible i don't know that the bible gives that definitively that that's

00:14:10.720 exactly what they were trying to do i mean it does tell us that um genesis 6 2 that they saw

00:14:15.720 the daughters of men that they were beautiful uh or that they were good that's true um so that they

00:14:20.980 similar to uh in genesis 3 eve sees the fruit that was good and pleasing to the eye that sort

00:14:27.040 So there was a desire there, but it probably goes beyond just a longing or a lust or something like that.

00:14:35.640 I agree that it's likely they were trying to corrupt the Messianic line.

00:14:41.460 In fact, there maybe is a hint in Genesis 6-9 where it talks about how Noah was a man blameless in his generations.

00:14:47.220 That's the word blameless there in Hebrew is the same word that's used to describe the Passover lamb.

00:14:53.760 They need to be without blemish.

00:14:55.200 so in a sense he is not tainted right um and so that could be an indication that he's

00:15:01.880 he he doesn't have that in his lineage at all whereas the others did um right yes i think

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00:17:42.100 So another verse that people use for objection to, you know, the ability of fallen angels to procreate with the daughters of men is that Jesus says angels will not, what is it?

00:17:55.700 Angels will not be given to marriage in heaven.

00:17:59.340 Do you remember that particular verse?

00:18:01.820 Matthew 22, 30 says, this is the passage with the Sadducees.

00:18:06.060 You know, the woman marries the guy, he dies.

00:18:08.500 She marries the brother, he dies seven times.

00:18:10.200 Who is she going to be married to?

00:18:12.800 And then he says, you are mistaken, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

00:18:16.400 And then verse 30, for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of God in heaven.

00:18:21.880 and so people look at that and say well there's no way because the angels they they what they say

00:18:30.200 is they can't get married because that's what it just says there well that's not what it says

00:18:34.080 jesus doesn't say that he says in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage and so

00:18:41.600 he doesn't he doesn't say the one he doesn't say anything about the ones who leave their proper

00:18:46.560 abode and i feel like that's so easy to to counter by just saying yeah the ones in heaven don't do

00:18:52.800 this and it's also it's uh this is um the language is this is what they don't do and the language

00:18:58.340 yeah go ahead can't do yeah and what's interesting to me is if you look at the parallel passage in

00:19:06.100 luke uh the the same setup and then he says the sons of this age marry and are given in marriage

00:19:12.560 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead

00:19:16.440 neither marry nor are given in marriage, nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to

00:19:20.620 the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

00:19:24.700 So it's interesting that Jesus refers to humans when we are glorified in the resurrection,

00:19:30.780 when we have our resurrected bodies, then we are equal to the angels and are what?

00:19:35.340 And are sons of God at that point.

00:19:37.800 So when it's fully realized, the idea that we're sons of God, it's almost as if he'd given a little bit of a nod to what we would say for the fallen angel view, that the sons of God, they're angelic beings.

00:19:50.980 Right. Okay. Any other things that you want to add on this point?

00:19:57.560 On whether they could do that? No, they'll have to get the book in order to find the right.

00:20:03.320 That's fair. That's fair. Okay, well then let's just talk a little bit about the giants. So

00:20:07.720 correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is you have, you know, you have sons of God, right?

00:20:12.340 This divine council. And I think there's a lot of merit to the divine council view. So I'm not,

00:20:18.060 you know, I don't prescribe to everything that Michael Heiser, you know, writes about, but

00:20:21.860 the unseen realm, and I appreciate him and I believe he's with the Lord now. He recently

00:20:26.500 passed away and I think he was faithful in many regards. He does have a particular disdain for

00:20:31.640 calvinism and i do happen to be a calvinist so i would have some disagreements with dr michael

00:20:36.220 hauser uh well he he did with um dispensationalism as well so okay well there you go so he didn't he

00:20:43.400 probably wouldn't have liked either one of us there you go he was he was a nice man so yeah

00:20:47.680 yeah i've watched some of his interviews and uh really fascinating stuff and you can tell he takes

00:20:53.280 the scripture and languages uh very seriously and so um but all that being said the divine

00:20:58.180 council kind of idea that uh like god even saying you know that's one of the big objections that

00:21:03.000 people had to heiser that he you know dared to you know just entertain the possibility that let

00:21:08.900 us make man and our image may not actually be trinitarian language which is always you know

00:21:14.340 typically assumed i i assumed that but this idea of god working with divine councils and that there

00:21:20.380 are other gods but not gods in the sense of um infinite or you know not not gods that are creator

00:21:27.100 gods, infinite gods. There was only one God. You are God above all the other gods. As we see in

00:21:32.940 the scripture, a King of Kings, Lord of Lords. But there are these lesser capital, you know,

00:21:39.900 lowercase g gods that God himself created to function and to rule as, you know, as vice

00:21:47.320 regents with him over the earth and different capacities and these kinds of things. And so you

00:21:51.520 see that, you know, in Job, you know, the first two chapters of Job, this, you know, this divine

00:21:56.060 council, and there are other places that speak of it as well. And so with all that being said,

00:22:01.900 we start with, you know, sons of God being angelic beings, and then fallen sons of God,

00:22:09.300 those who rebelled against him and are now cast down to earth, that left their heavenly abodes

00:22:17.600 or went down to earth. And then you have the offspring of fallen angels, sons of God and

00:22:25.080 daughters of men uh human women being nephilim uh and then from there the next progression would

00:22:32.960 be from the nephilim you then get the giants is that right the right progression there

00:22:36.760 well or that the nephilim just are giants and then you have the different clans from there

00:22:42.120 so like the anakim and the emim and those other ones that are mentioned so flesh that out a little

00:22:46.620 bit so the nephilim themselves are giants but they could also the nephilim could then have

00:22:51.320 wives human you know wives uh and their children would likely be giants as well but each time

00:22:58.080 maybe a little bit less pure in terms of yeah presuming that they are married that the nephilim

00:23:04.220 themselves are marrying human women there's the possibility i think we'll probably touch on this

00:23:08.200 in our next one that maybe some of the offspring of the sons of god and daughters men would be

00:23:12.040 female and so then you could have i see nephilim male and female uh marrying um but um i see yeah

00:23:19.400 Either option would be, I think, within the, are plausible with Scripture.

00:23:27.980 Okay, that's really helpful.

00:23:29.080 I did not think about, I mean, of course that makes sense, but I didn't think about that

00:23:31.800 possibility of one Nephilim and another Nephilim, and we're going to keep the bloodline pure,

00:23:37.400 which is funny to say because it's 50%, you know, 50-50.

00:23:40.100 Not very pure.

00:23:40.920 Right, but it's, you know, keeping it at the 50%, you know, percentage rather than 25 and

00:23:47.680 then, you know, 12.5 and so.

00:23:49.400 Okay. So let's, let's talk about giants. And so my, my perspective is that, you know, that you had,

00:23:54.620 you know, initial, so I do think, and we've talked about this in our second episode,

00:23:59.820 but different kinds of angels, species unique, each one could have been unique with different

00:24:04.640 traits and different abilities or different knowledges, you know, and able to pass those

00:24:08.480 things down to teach certain things and technology even. And not only that, I personally think that,

00:24:15.520 you know, that it's possible that within that realm that, you know, some Nephilim,

00:24:19.460 depending on who that fallen angel father might have been, could have been larger than others

00:24:23.960 in terms of their physical stature and size. And so with all these things, you know, and then

00:24:29.160 multiple incursions that, you know, you could have very large giants in the, you know, antediluvian,

00:24:35.440 pre-flood days, but then also large giants again in the time of, you know, Moses or Abraham or

00:24:41.580 or even Joshua in the conquest of Canaan. But it does seem like the giants eventually

00:24:46.660 begin to kind of pitter out. And so my view is that, you know, by the time you get to King David

00:24:52.180 and Goliath, for instance, it seems like these are just the leftovers from Joshua because it

00:24:55.980 actually, I just taught through Joshua and our church this year and, you know, going verse by

00:25:02.060 verse. And it says, you know, Joshua defeated multiple different clans in Canaan, one of them

00:25:07.600 being the Anakim, and defeated them from this region to that region and cleared them out to

00:25:12.480 where the only ones that lived, he put most of them to the edge of the sword. The only ones that

00:25:17.240 lived went to Gaza, Gath, and one other place. What is it? Ashdod. Ashdod. Yeah, I think that's

00:25:24.820 1121, or Joshua 1121, I think. Right, and then lo and behold, you know, you find Goliath, you know,

00:25:30.960 from Gath. And so, I think by the time you get to David, to me, my assessment is that Goliath is,

00:25:36.720 you know he's he's multiple generations removed from anak he's in that line uh the anakim and

00:25:41.920 anak his father was arba a man of renown that could be i think could be a nephilim uh but

00:25:48.160 that's the plural what do we call it a nepha na feel na feel that could so arba could be a na feel

00:25:54.800 um but by the time you get to goliath i view that as goliath might be one of the smaller giants but

00:26:01.560 And I think this is where you and I would maybe differ that you think, no, Goliath is on par for the giants only got so big.

00:26:09.960 Can we talk about that a little bit?

00:26:12.280 Sure. Yeah.

00:26:13.980 You also have David's mighty men fighting against, it says there was war in Gath.

00:26:19.060 And that's where you have these other giants that are mentioned that David's mighty men killed.

00:26:22.600 So Goliath's brothers or his descendants, depending on how that gets translated.

00:26:28.520 um and then they do seem to disappear after that point but yeah they were all gaza gath ashdod that

00:26:33.800 area uh they were the only ones that were left that that joshua didn't wipe out or drive out of

00:26:38.760 the land um and i think that's instructive because you have at the same time one of the battles with

00:26:45.080 david's mighty men kills an egyptian man and call them a man of measure or a man of stature but he

00:26:50.460 says he's five cubits tall so that'd be roughly seven and a half feet tall um a little bit taller

00:26:55.720 than me i'm joel and i got to meet he knows i'm right i'm pretty large nine yeah um and but he's

00:27:03.660 not called a giant this egyptian guy so at seven and a half feet he's not identified in that way

00:27:08.260 at all so he just seemed to be a very tall person like we have very tall people today he's not

00:27:12.920 identified with any of those tribes or or anything so he seemed to be different um just a normal

00:27:19.640 human that's a great point though i didn't think like because people say well israelites ancient

00:27:23.880 israelites were five foot two you know and so when they went up against the canaanites you know

00:27:28.040 these could have just been people who were five eleven you know or six feet tall and to them it

00:27:31.720 was giants you know but that's a great point to say no here's a guy who's not from one of the

00:27:36.180 giant clans and so he's not named a giant he's just called a man of stature or a tall man and

00:27:42.080 a tall man is seven and a half and if that's the case then what do you think a giant is it's got

00:27:46.400 to be bigger than that yeah and the whole idea that the ancient israelites were only five two

00:27:50.680 that nearly everybody who does that cites one book one of the handbooks to the old testament i

00:27:56.680 end up getting that exact edition and that is in the very beginning of the book it's like the first

00:28:02.140 or second paragraph where it says here's the average jewish person at that time no footnote

00:28:06.660 no documentation it's just stated and everybody cites that one thing i think it comes from a

00:28:11.140 one cemetery uh from that from the old testament time uh one of the times of the old testament i

00:28:17.040 should say and they average the height of the people there but there's been other studies um

00:28:21.880 where there's a cave that they found a bunch of remains of humans from about the 13th century bc

00:28:27.820 so like the period of judges and reconstructing based on jaw size and everything they estimate

00:28:33.620 the average israelite at the time about five six so it's a little bigger and that's male and female

00:28:38.900 combined it's not just the average man right so maybe not quite as short as everybody thinks

00:28:43.680 yeah but going back to yeah i document that in the book so that's um if people are wondering

00:28:49.220 where that comes from the um going back to joshua's time and moses time you've got og

00:28:56.740 which we need to get to him and talk about him it's all this interesting verse what is that

00:29:01.540 deuteronomy 3 10 and 11 talks about how once they killed og of bashan um it says his bedstead was

00:29:10.160 still there um so his bed was left over that it was iron uh not just the normal wooden one or

00:29:16.780 something maybe it's stressing that it was iron because he was really big and needed something

00:29:20.980 strong right but it tells us how big it was and in cubits um so it'd be nine nine cubits by four

00:29:27.780 cubits so about 13 and a half feet by six feet and so if he was as tall as his bed was long

00:29:34.720 so 13 and a half feet that makes him exactly twice my height and so it it makes for a good

00:29:41.300 um you know a good illustration i guess so if he was let's say let's go with that that he's 13 6

00:29:48.720 if he were built to my proportions and maybe he's even stronger thicker i don't know um but i right

00:29:55.340 now i'm around 230 pounds so he would be you you don't just double my weight you have to multiply

00:30:01.780 it by eight you have to go you have to double the height double the the depth and the breadth

00:30:07.620 so you multiply my weight by eight so you get up to uh yeah about 1800 pounds at 13 and a half feet

00:30:14.800 um is that possible for a human to be that size well the skeletal structure can hold the weight

00:30:22.280 you know just because of the compressive strength the bone is pretty strong if you're just standing

00:30:26.820 there but once you start moving and you get the the the torsion and you know things moving it

00:30:32.180 it's it becomes pretty difficult for as you get bigger and bigger than that you know you see some

00:30:39.480 pictures on the internet oh they were 30 40 50 feet tall well imagine 27 feet tall you have to

00:30:44.920 double go double dog's height then you multiply that other weight 1800 roughly 1800 pounds by

00:30:50.860 eight and then you're looking at somebody who is not a math major but i think around seven tons

00:30:56.720 and it's just it pretty quickly seems out of the realm of possibility now i know you're saying it's

00:31:04.640 out of the realm of possibility because the bone structure couldn't support it i don't know if it's

00:31:10.040 just the bone as much as also the organs and everything else i know some people say but we're

00:31:14.180 dealing with entities that are part supernatural being as well and that's true so maybe that

00:31:20.100 plays into it where they could be larger um maybe that 12 13 foot range is more of the

00:31:27.140 upper limit um so there is a there's an old egyptian um it's not a document it's a writing

00:31:37.720 that was found but it's i think it was called craft of the scribe and it talked about the

00:31:42.320 the shasu people in uh which is in the land of canaan and they were afraid of them um and they

00:31:49.420 talked about how they were when you work it out according to the egyptian cue but they would be

00:31:53.240 eight foot seven from nose to toe so from here down okay um and that but that would still been

00:31:59.380 close to moses's time and um or be a little bit before moses i think and there's an illustration

00:32:06.200 or a relief that's been found where they captured two of the the shasu and they have a picture of

00:32:11.980 them kneeling down before all of the egyptians which is pretty interesting usually when you see

00:32:17.580 like the egyptian relief the pharaoh is the one who's really big right in this one the two spies

00:32:22.380 are kneeling down and they're a little bit taller kneeling and they're kind of squatting even more

00:32:27.960 than that than the people the egyptians who are around them who are beating them and have them

00:32:31.660 held captive so um there's yeah if you were to scale them up they look like they'd be about

00:32:38.280 nine to ten feet um which is consistent with what you have with goliath so yeah maybe aug is the

00:32:44.340 upper range 13 and a half and when you go beyond there there it seems very difficult to conceive

00:32:53.980 of you know a human form that's seven tons or more it's definitely difficult to conceive i'll

00:33:01.480 give you that but in terms of just the mechanics i guess just physically so hard to imagine a 30

00:33:07.980 foot tall dude um i definitely agree with that but i guess my question the heart pumping hard

00:33:14.400 enough to get the blood back from the feet all the way up you know 20 some feet to where the

00:33:18.520 heart is again totally but a much larger heart you know so i in my and help me understand because

00:33:24.640 i'm no you know i'm no scientist but like to me it's like yeah it's okay so yeah the blood's got

00:33:29.680 to pump all the way down to the toes you got a 20 foot range you know like so a lot of the you know

00:33:34.360 or like you said, seven tons of weight and not just standing still like a, like a skyscraper

00:33:39.300 or a tower, but this is, this, this is a, a person that's moving, walking, running, you

00:33:44.960 know, chasing at certain points.

00:33:46.340 So all those things totally get it that for me, I, I, and I'm just, again, I'm not a scientist.

00:33:52.840 So I don't, I don't see that.

00:33:54.440 I guess I just don't see the problems with if everything is, you know, like if, if you've

00:33:59.000 got today, you know, there, you know, there are guys who, where it's, it's really, it's, it's not

00:34:05.120 a positive thing. It's a, it's a detriment that somebody is, you know, eight plus feet tall and,

00:34:12.360 and they, you know, usually have to have some kind of brace or cane or something like that.

00:34:16.180 But I don't think that the Goliath did, and he would be even taller at nine foot nine.

00:34:20.440 You know, but, but today when people have certain ailments, because they're, they're very,

00:34:26.500 very tall or very large, it's because it's disproportional in my understanding. But if

00:34:32.960 somebody is fully proportional to it, yeah, the blood's got to go 20 feet from the heart to the

00:34:37.620 toes, but that heart is proportional for that size. It's a massive heart and the bones are

00:34:43.520 massive bones. And is there any reason, like what do you, it's hard to imagine a 30 foot tall

00:34:51.740 person sure but but from a physical standpoint what what are the problems with that yes i'm just

00:34:58.040 thinking about like a giraffe or something you so the bold giraffe is about 18 can get up to about

00:35:02.240 18 feet uh tall but they have to have special features in their anatomy like their their skin

00:35:08.600 is super tight which helps force the leg the blood back up from the legs and in order to get back to

00:35:14.060 the heart the heart i think is like two feet long um they have to have a special thing before their

00:35:18.460 brain below their brain so when they bend down to drink the blood doesn't just rush all the way in

00:35:24.080 there and just blast their brain so there's certain there's certain physiological things

00:35:28.660 that have to be in place and and maybe that sort of thing would you know the bigger you get but i

00:35:34.700 just i do think there's a a limit because of our physiology okay um and i don't know exactly what

00:35:41.380 that number is i just i see what you're saying yeah i i think once you get beyond the 13 it

00:35:49.100 really becomes extreme but again because there's a bit of supernatural involved there maybe it

00:35:55.320 allows more and and i think as even if let's say that aug were twice my height and uh we're we're

00:36:03.020 going to say that he has to be to my dimension i think there's probably a little bit of streamlining

00:36:06.940 going on so rather than being exactly eight times when i wait maybe it's more like seven or seven

00:36:11.220 and a half just but anyways it's still it pretty soon gets pretty hard to massive fathom yeah

00:36:20.860 yeah massive but either way i mean a 10 foot tall person is going to look incredibly huge

00:36:27.220 oh totally yeah totally i we just um i so at the time of recording this we're still early november

00:36:35.760 but uh but i have already set up my christmas tree because i can't wait uh the webbin family

00:36:41.240 we're big fans of christmas and um but you know we have a nine foot tree and i was looking at

00:36:47.260 last night and i was like just imagining like if that was a person i was like yeah that's a big

00:36:51.600 that's a big dude that's you know nine feet is huge it really is you know and so um so i hear

00:36:59.100 uh what do you so i guess you know with amos um they were you know as tall as cedars you know the

00:37:05.640 What is it? The Amalekites, I think, is what the Amalekites.

00:37:09.940 It's the only time they're ever called giants in the Bible.

00:37:14.520 It was Amos 2.9, I think.

00:37:16.100 Yeah, that's it.

00:37:17.160 Like the height as of cedars or strength is the oak or something like that.

00:37:21.000 And I think there's some figurative language going on there.

00:37:24.560 They're huge.

00:37:27.800 Yeah, and the Bible uses figurative language.

00:37:29.860 It doesn't have to be literal.

00:37:30.900 But I did look into like, you know, in summer, like 60 to 100 feet, 120 feet tall.

00:37:35.780 But I looked into like cedars in that particular region and what people think at that time.

00:37:40.100 And 30 to 40 is most of what I could find.

00:37:44.000 Well, and you have the spies talking about how we were like grasshoppers in their site.

00:37:47.360 Right.

00:37:48.160 So if we take that super literally, a grasshopper is like an inch or two big.

00:37:53.500 That one would be, yeah, if you take that literally, then that kind of blows the Amos 2.9 cedar passage out of the water.

00:37:59.620 but but if you are you know if you're five foot six or five foot eight and you're standing next

00:38:03.580 somebody who's 10 feet tall i mean i've got a picture in my book i think of robert wadlow you

00:38:07.980 know the tallest man in modern times who eight foot eleven and three quarters i think he got to

00:38:13.400 standing next to his dad who was you know five and a half feet or something and it's just

00:38:17.140 it he makes him look so puny because of how massive this guy is not even twice the height

00:38:24.700 all right everybody's been asking can i live stream your conference and the answer is a

00:38:30.980 resounding no you will be there in person or you will not be there at all i'm just kidding you

00:38:36.240 actually can live stream the conference we're excited to announce we're making it available

00:38:40.180 to anybody and everybody who wants to watch this conference right as it's happening which is march

00:38:46.220 1st and 2nd that's a friday and saturday of 2024 what conference am i even talking about it's called

00:38:52.140 blueprints for Christendom 2.0. We've got Pastor Douglas Wilson, we've got Dr. Joe Boot, we've got

00:38:58.040 Brian Sauve, we've got Eric Kahn, and then of course, yours truly, Joel Webin. We've got seven

00:39:03.740 primary sessions in the conference, each one being probably 50 to 60 minute long sessions, lectures,

00:39:11.380 sermons, whatever you want to call them, and then two live panels, each being an hour and a half

00:39:16.100 long. Now, one of the panels is on biblical patriarchy. We're going to have Pastor Douglas

00:39:20.580 wilson available for that panel and we decided to get eric khan because eric khan biblical

00:39:26.060 patriarchy let's just be honest it's a sensitive topic but eric khan i think is known as one of

00:39:31.340 the most nuanced careful and sensitive individuals especially on the twitter street so we're going

00:39:35.960 to have him as a part of that panel it'll go really well then the second panel is haunted

00:39:40.640 cosmos live show you've got brian sauve and ben garrett talking about the most unhinged things

00:39:46.700 imaginable, hopefully some things that are actually truthful. Now there will be some

00:39:51.200 truthful things. You're going to stick to scripture and when they speculate, and you know

00:39:54.300 they will, they'll at least let you know that it's speculation and they won't pass it off as

00:39:58.740 though it's in the infallible word of God. So live stream this conference. How do you do it?

00:40:03.040 Go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries. Again, that's patreon.com forward

00:40:10.960 slash right response ministries a lot of guys charge 50 bucks 60 bucks 80 bucks we are asking

00:40:17.640 that you would simply partner with us for 10 a month and let's be real you could do it one month

00:40:23.760 live stream all the content and then cancel your subscription and if you do no harm no foul if you

00:40:29.300 want to stick with us and support this ministry what god's doing through right response then

00:40:33.300 praise god that's great and we thank you either way technically it's only 10 bucks right um here's

00:40:40.220 one other question i have uh about just birthing uh so so some people say you know well how could

00:40:46.160 angels procreate with you know uh women but another question is like well how could how could a woman

00:40:52.560 give birth to you know a a baby that's gonna be nine foot nine you know or possibly in the case

00:41:01.140 of auger you know like 13 14 like how how is it that human women could give birth to a giant what

00:41:08.700 what do you think about that uh so let me turn the question around you real quick do you know

00:41:12.380 how big you were when you were born your weight yeah eight pounds um i think i was eight eight

00:41:17.780 or eight nine i was eight five so you were bigger than me there you go but who's bigger today you

00:41:24.300 yeah um so even if even if this baby's going to be a giant it doesn't necessarily mean that the

00:41:30.960 the size at birth is going to be considerably larger uh but the you know there are i've got

00:41:36.940 a friend who's their, I think their eighth baby was 12 pounds at birth. We went to see him in

00:41:43.340 the hospital and our son, who's just turned 21 now, he was a little boy at the time. We said,

00:41:49.280 hey, Judah, look at the little baby. It's not a little baby. It's like a toddler sitting there

00:41:54.260 and he's a newborn at 12 pounds. So even if somebody my size was eight pounds and five

00:42:01.320 ounces at birth, you could have somebody who's going to end up being several feet taller than

00:42:06.860 who wouldn't have to be a lot bigger at birth right yeah that's okay i'm glad to hear you said

00:42:11.540 that's what i've always thought was that um and and just looking at like you know baby like the

00:42:17.160 largest baby ever born and looking at some of those facts like um you can have a 12 pound baby

00:42:22.440 i have a friend who was 11 you know 11 pounds two ounces 12 pounds you've got that story so uh and

00:42:28.320 looking at some of the largest babies that were born uh you know all the way up to close to 20

00:42:33.060 pounds, 18 to 20 pound babies. Um, and that's certainly not ordinary or regular, but it can

00:42:38.600 happen. And so, so then you think like, okay, well, so let's say, you know, cut the difference

00:42:43.280 and go a little bit smaller than, you know, but like 15, 16 pound babies. And, and that doesn't

00:42:47.440 even factor in, uh, if these babies have angelic fathers who know things about, you know, life and

00:42:54.660 medicine and all these things, like what, what about, um, because we're just discussing, you

00:42:59.580 know, full term babies at eight, five who grow up to, you know, eight, eight pounds, five ounces

00:43:04.520 that grow up to be six foot nine, such as yourself. Um, there's also the possibility of, uh, early

00:43:10.020 births that, uh, premature that, uh, these angelic fathers could have said, okay, that's it. It's

00:43:15.680 been six months. We're not going to go full 10, you know, like we're going to take the baby out

00:43:19.520 now. We know how to do this, you know, and, and, uh, and so the baby's coming out premature at,

00:43:25.300 you know, where, where if it was a normal size baby by today's standards, you know, at, at six

00:43:30.480 months that, that baby would very likely only be, you know, well, we just had two, two babies. I'm

00:43:37.580 sorry, one, one baby in our church that was premature by about, I believe it was about two

00:43:43.360 months early. So, so about seven months. No, no, it was earlier than that. It was like 20 weeks.

00:43:50.000 So, so about half, so like four and a half months in the NICU for, um, for quite a long

00:43:55.920 time.

00:43:56.340 Um, but, uh, close to 20 weeks, like 23, 24 or something like that.

00:44:01.500 Um, and, and, uh, and, and the baby was tiny, like, uh, I think like two pounds and, um,

00:44:09.000 but the baby is alive.

00:44:10.040 The baby is here.

00:44:10.700 And obviously we have certain technology that people didn't in the past, but having an angelic

00:44:15.300 father and some, you know, I would imagine that they would have some special abilities and skills

00:44:20.580 and knowledges and stuff like that. So, you know, so anyways, my point is just to say that, you

00:44:24.640 know, you could have an eight pound, five ounce baby such as yourself that grows to be six foot

00:44:29.300 nine. And that's, you know, full term. Why not? Why not a 12 pound baby or a 15 pound baby? And

00:44:35.740 again, that being full term, what about a 12, 15 pound baby that's at six months, not even full

00:44:40.180 term and the angelic fathers say all right it's time to deliver the child early and like now now

00:44:45.460 i feel like the the sky's the limit cedar trees are back on the menu tim we could do it we can

00:44:51.320 get 30 foot we get 30 foot giants so anyways well yeah or if you just need if you have women that

00:44:57.800 are you know female giants at some point right just that uh yeah i mean obviously a lot of that

00:45:03.860 of speculation we don't know the growth chart you know are they 99th percentile the day that

00:45:10.900 they're born and from then on um yeah we just simply don't know all those things so any any

00:45:16.560 more thoughts on uh fallen angels procreating with women or yeah let's real quickly tackle

00:45:22.780 you hinted at a little bit a little bit ago and i cover it in the book in one of the objections

00:45:27.960 because as i mentioned before any any view that is correct has to be able to address its objections

00:45:34.320 and answer those and i've noticed um many times people who hold to the set type view

00:45:40.400 will never touch the objections they they will just attack the fallen angel view and think that

00:45:44.560 they've done their homework and no there are significant textual issues with that view that

00:45:50.040 need to be addressed and i never hear people addressing them but um one objection to the

00:45:54.580 an angel view is like in genesis 1 talks about how they bring forth after their kind and um so

00:46:00.580 if how can humans and angels if if they're different kinds how can that happen well

00:46:07.440 a couple things to keep in mind one the bible never says humans will bring forth after their

00:46:12.800 kind that's only that's referring to the plants and the animals uh i'm not saying that humans

00:46:16.920 don't i'm just telling i'm just stating a fact the bible never uses that terminology when it

00:46:20.760 come to humans um but secondly if angels are also made in god's image so when god says if what you

00:46:28.260 were talking about earlier with dr heiser saying that this divine council genesis 126 let us make

00:46:33.160 man in our image if that's not trinitarian language if he is speaking to the angels then

00:46:38.580 they are made in god's image as well and if we are made in god's image then would that preclude

00:46:44.820 you know if they both have the imago dei um then perhaps when they appear in human form if they

00:46:53.760 appear as humans it's not a violation of kind yeah that makes a lot of sense any other thoughts

00:47:02.660 on um oh i've got lots of on that but i want to talk about giants and i mean there's some cool

00:47:08.580 stuff in there and when we get into joshua and judges so or joshua i should say yeah yeah okay

00:47:13.080 go ahead talk talk about giants so yeah so you talked earlier about the um i've got a chapter

00:47:18.520 called giant speculation so i'm going to tell you what i'm just speculating rather than just

00:47:22.540 trying to be sensationalistic or something that's not the goal of the book it's to be a

00:47:26.220 as i mentioned before in earlier episodes a serious bible study but one of the things that

00:47:31.320 that was pretty cool you talked about how joshua drove them out uh the anakin from everywhere

00:47:36.680 except for gazagath and ashdod well it doesn't mean every single one of them was killed they

00:47:40.680 were some of them were killed some fled and what i found really interesting is you do have these

00:47:46.480 legends of giants in different cultures around the world you have um you know the greeks have

00:47:53.580 something similar to this where you have the the gods coming down and having affairs with women

00:47:58.360 and producing demigods and sometimes they're described as giants um so um like orion and

00:48:05.420 others um and you have in norse mythology the same sort of thing but um one story that i think

00:48:14.980 is really interesting is the odyssey uh by homer uh it's about the the battle of troy and and you

00:48:22.500 have odysseus or or ulysses depending on your translation there um it's trying to get home

00:48:28.460 and that's what the whole book of the odyssey is about he's trying he's trying to get home

00:48:32.020 and the so he's got a fleet of 21 ships the very so they leave from troy and this is there was a

00:48:40.800 real battle of troy i'm not saying everything in the odyssey is historical record that's not what

00:48:44.860 i'm going for here but there was a real battle of troy what if there really was a guy named

00:48:49.540 odysseus who's trying to get home and had a lot of problems getting back so he's got a fleet of

00:48:53.640 21 ships and the first island they stop at so this would be somewhere in the mediterranean

00:48:57.340 eastern mediterranean is it's called the island of the listergonians and they go to some of his

00:49:03.960 men are sent up to the ruler of the island and he's a giant and he takes two of the men and

00:49:10.700 dashes them against the ground and starts eating them and then the rest of the guys flee try to

00:49:15.700 get back to the ships the giants run out and they start spearing the men like fish uh they destroy

00:49:20.700 20 of the ships all but one of them and it's odysseus's he gets away with just one ship left

00:49:25.620 the rest are killed and eaten by giants the next island he gets to the island is the island that's

00:49:30.600 the one most people know about the island of the cyclops and here you have a giant who wants to

00:49:35.500 eat people and he traps ulysses and or odysseus in his cave with some others for a little while

00:49:41.140 and they escape and then you have the rest of the odyssey so i find that interesting because in

00:49:48.020 numbers chapter 13 when the spies return from the land they talk about how it's a great land

00:49:53.240 you know here's its produce you know they're they got the grapes and everything and they're

00:49:57.020 telling it's a truly as a land flowing with milk and honey um joshua and caleb are like let's go

00:50:02.660 and then the other 10 are like no no no it's it's a land that devours its inhabitants

00:50:07.940 and they start trying to dissuade the people from going they're scared because the people there are

00:50:13.800 uh giants there we saw the nephilim or we we saw the nephilim they're the anachemer of the nephilim

00:50:20.280 and um so they're trying to scare the people not to go in but that one phrase they used is

00:50:25.860 really interesting to me that the land that it's a land that devours its inhabitants and if you

00:50:31.480 read commentaries a lot of times they'll say things like um well it's a land that's been

00:50:36.700 ravaged by war back and forth and i'm thinking well if you're the israelites isn't that great

00:50:40.440 the people are weakened because they've been fighting all the time let's go take them um

00:50:44.340 and so they have all sorts of different interpretations what if we just take that

00:50:47.980 in a very straightforward way that the the when they're talking about the giants it devours its

00:50:53.640 inhabitants what if these are the giants are eating people and that's what scares the rest

00:51:00.040 of the israelites to death right we don't want to go because in the next chapter joshua and

00:51:03.780 caleb are still trying to persuade them like don't don't disobey god let's go they will be

00:51:08.460 meat for us they use that phrase so it's almost as if you had a cannibal cannibalism going on

00:51:15.560 there. So you had these giants who are eating people. If you were one of the giants and you

00:51:21.260 fled rather than getting killed by Joshua's armies, where would you flee? The Israelites

00:51:25.060 are coming from the south and from the east, meaning you would go north or west, which is

00:51:29.400 the Mediterranean Sea. And about 100 to 200 years after Joshua, you have the Battle of Troy.

00:51:35.580 Is it possible that we're getting some sort of legendary embellishment of something that really

00:51:41.760 happened at the beginning of the odyssey and maybe the giants eating human for the record i don't eat

00:51:47.760 humans well you're not a giant you're six foot nine you don't make the cut right but you have

00:51:55.940 the same sort of idea throughout so many different stories even something as like jack and the

00:52:02.000 beanstalk the giant one you know i smell the blood of english he wants to eat eat people and

00:52:08.560 where does he where do the giants live halfway between heaven and earth they're part heaven

00:52:12.540 part earth so there's just a whole bunch of stories mythology that all line up pretty well

00:52:19.420 with that idea and i think that they're distortions or or ideas that are borrowed from reality yeah

00:52:25.500 that's really interesting yeah i think there's a lot of things like that personally i think there's

00:52:30.880 a lot of myths that um that sure are probably um off on some of the details or embellished in some

00:52:37.400 regard but um i think there are a lot of myths that point towards the fact that uh it's not you

00:52:43.760 know it's not that we all have you know one shared conscience uh conscious um but um as some have

00:52:50.340 presupposed but um but that we all did come from one family that we all you know twice from adam

00:52:57.480 and then from noah you know and so um so yeah i you know the fact that there's a flood narrative

00:53:03.500 with every, every different people group on the planet virtually, like has some kind of in there,

00:53:09.560 if they have history that goes back that far, whether it be oral tradition or written, there's,

00:53:13.660 there's just certain building blocks that you find universally across the board, flood giants,

00:53:19.340 like this and that, you know, like demigods, um, which, you know, part, you know, part God,

00:53:25.500 you know, um, and part, uh, part, you know, who mated with some woman and it's half God,

00:53:31.220 half man kind of thing you know um like you said orion um that's well it's like the bible i think

00:53:38.000 the bible addresses this i think these things are they're not only myths i think a lot of things

00:53:42.300 that we chalk up to legend and myth are probably actually historical accounts told in an maybe

00:53:48.180 in an entertaining extra entertaining manner based off of a certain culture and their customs

00:53:53.180 and the way that they would share history um but i don't think these things are just made up um you

00:53:58.640 know stories yeah i agree um yeah go ahead i was just gonna say any any other neat nifty uh tidbits

00:54:09.380 about giants that you want to share um i mean i'd have to look at the table of contents again but

00:54:16.540 yeah i mean just going back to the the spies for a little bit because so many times people will say

00:54:20.460 well they were just lying to the people no they the narrator moses tells us earlier in the chapter

00:54:25.400 that the Anakim were there, and he names three of them.

00:54:29.340 So I don't think that you can just dismiss that passage as they were just lying.

00:54:35.200 No, they told the report of the land, and then they tried to scare the people.

00:54:41.940 And so they weren't lying about seeing the giants there.

00:54:45.440 A bad report is not the same as a false report.

00:54:47.860 Right, and I think we may have mentioned that before,

00:54:49.480 but I just want to make sure I handled that because I hear that a lot.

00:54:52.340 And it's like, no, you have to deal with it because Moses tells us they were there.

00:54:57.740 Yeah. And then one other thing that I think that would be worth talking about, but chapter 26 in your book, The Conquest, Genocide or Giantside is the title of that chapter.

00:55:09.000 I think I know what you're getting at there in terms of a lot of people sometimes see certain commands that God gave to the Israelites to wipe out entire nations.

00:55:18.000 You know, and they see it as inhumane and unloving and this and that and the other.

00:55:23.540 And it does, you know, one, God would be perfectly just within the boundaries of his justice as a divine decree.

00:55:30.900 You know, we would operate by, I'm not a pacifist, but I would operate by the certain, you know, characteristics of just war theory and things like that today.

00:55:40.420 because I don't have, you know, we don't have,

00:55:44.060 nations don't have a divine decree from God to do that.

00:55:48.160 So we try to fight just wars for just reasons

00:55:50.600 after diplomatic measures have been taken to the utmost

00:55:54.420 and all these, and one of the characteristics

00:55:57.400 of just war theory is that, you know,

00:55:59.640 the battle has to be winnable.

00:56:01.140 We don't, you don't do suicide missions.

00:56:03.080 And so all those things.

00:56:04.600 So one, God would be just within his rights

00:56:06.720 from a divine decree offered to the Israelites to wipe out an entire nation. It would be fair

00:56:13.600 on God's part, but just for good measure to, you know, cherry on top. What if that nation

00:56:20.100 wasn't, not only were they bad or immoral, but what if they weren't even fully human?

00:56:28.840 Is that part of what you're getting at with giant side versus genocide?

00:56:33.260 Yeah, because this is one of the arguments that a lot of skeptics will, you know, they camp out on this over and over again.

00:56:39.640 Oh, you worship a God who tells the Israelites, tells his people to go and wipe out all of these men, women, and children and, you know, torture them, which he never says to torture.

00:56:47.800 But, you know, they embellish this and they think that they're, you know, dismantling our view of God by focusing on this passage or on these passages in Joshua about the conquest.

00:57:02.580 But they are lacking a lot of context.

00:57:05.580 One, you have when God appears to Abraham, tells him, I'm going to give you this land and your descendants.

00:57:11.420 But they're going to go down to a land that's not their own for, you know, 400 years and serve them.

00:57:15.200 and then they'll be back because the iniquity of the Amalekites is not yet complete.

00:57:19.140 So God's given these people 400 years.

00:57:22.580 He's patiently waiting and giving them an opportunity to turn, and they don't.

00:57:26.280 And they're getting more and more and more wicked.

00:57:28.620 So it's not as if he just, you know, on a whim one day said,

00:57:32.280 oh, go kill all these people.

00:57:33.360 No, these are people who are doing all sorts of exceedingly wicked things,

00:57:37.760 including child sacrifice and more.

00:57:40.660 But one detail that I think people miss out on is Moses was told in Deuteronomy,

00:57:46.340 when you go to, tell the Israelites when they go to this land,

00:57:50.620 if it's some of the peoples that are far off, you can make a peace treaty with them and they can serve you.

00:57:57.700 But these nations, and he names the ones where the giants are, these are the ones you're going to wipe out.

00:58:03.560 And then what you see in Joshua after Jericho, which they did wipe out men, women, and children there,

00:58:09.940 the places where they kill men women and children where it's specified are the places where the

00:58:16.740 giants were and is it possible that that was one of the purposes of the conquest just like

00:58:24.280 the flood we were talking about earlier that so the two cases the spec the the skeptics use all

00:58:30.340 the time to attack god's character saying look at he he performed genocide at the flood no that

00:58:35.740 wasn't genocide that was judgment on every single human not except for eight it wasn't just you know

00:58:41.860 one lineage or one quote-unquote race it was everybody that's judgment um and in this case

00:58:48.420 it's these people groups that seem that have this seem to have you know giants among them that god

00:58:57.960 says take them out um after waiting patiently for 400 years the places where they didn't

00:59:03.760 they're still around in david's time and still creating a problem and so i think they missed

00:59:10.100 that that's why that chapter genocide our giant side great yep i i yeah i tend to think the same

00:59:16.860 thing well let's go ahead and land the plane now for this episode um we'll do the same thing that

00:59:21.400 we've done in the last two uh give you an opportunity to tell people where they can

00:59:24.960 follow you again plug the book uh but how could yeah how can people because you write regularly

00:59:29.720 right um and so how can people follow you and uh and where can they get your book if they want to

00:59:34.740 look at more yeah so the book is available on amazon like i mentioned before and it's also on

00:59:40.280 my own website which is risenmin.com um that's my newer website i have an older one where i have a

00:59:47.060 blog that i do update somewhat regularly not as much as i want to but that's midwestapologetics.org

00:59:53.740 that's an older one but that's where my blog still is um but you can get to that from the

00:59:58.560 risen ministries page as well uh so they can they can follow some of my stuff there or my

01:00:03.040 author page on facebook they could they could find me on there um yeah uh great did i miss something

01:00:10.720 no that's it well thank you so much well i was gonna say actually we could talk real quickly

01:00:15.280 if you don't mind um they could find some of my work on answers and genesis as well but as we

01:00:19.420 mentioned before that's not a official you know what we're talking about here is not you know

01:00:24.040 representing answers in Genesis is my own thing. And Joel, I got to ask you now that we're on,

01:00:29.340 on the thing, what'd you think of your trip to the Ark and the museum?

01:00:32.760 It was great. It was awesome. I, you know, we went for the fight, laugh, feast conference and

01:00:37.220 I, you know, I was just going to go and attend myself, but I was like, there's no way I can

01:00:41.260 tell my kids that, you know, daddy's going to Noah's Ark and they don't get to come. So we

01:00:45.720 made it a whole family event and it was amazing. It was really, really well done. It was the whole,

01:00:50.460 the thing I kept thinking the whole time was it was just encouraging.

01:00:53.920 A lot of times Christians do things poorly.

01:00:57.400 So it was really cool to think,

01:00:59.020 to see Christians do something with excellence,

01:01:01.320 like all of it,

01:01:02.320 the creation museum and the arc,

01:01:05.400 but especially the creation museum as we were walking around on the grounds

01:01:08.600 and outside and stuff.

01:01:09.900 I was thinking it reminded me of the San Diego zoo when I used to live in San

01:01:13.640 Diego and,

01:01:14.920 and thinking like,

01:01:16.060 I mean,

01:01:16.320 this really is done with excellence.

01:01:18.060 Like the worldview is entirely different.

01:01:20.460 than the worldview that secular humanists would hold.

01:01:24.880 But in terms of this being something

01:01:26.940 that's professional and well done,

01:01:30.080 yeah, it was awesome.

01:01:31.300 And the kids loved it.

01:01:32.380 So that was great.

01:01:33.180 So yeah, we had a great time.

01:01:34.660 Wow, that's awesome.

01:01:35.340 Yeah, I say it all the time.

01:01:37.200 It's so fun to be working with a team

01:01:39.680 that they believe like I do,

01:01:41.560 that we should do everything as unto the Lord.

01:01:43.320 And so we're trying to give them our best and everything.

01:01:45.480 And it's just what a privilege and a blessing it is

01:01:47.800 to be part of a group like that.

01:01:49.660 So, yeah, I'm glad you guys enjoyed it.

01:01:51.880 It was really good to meet you in person.

01:01:53.540 Yeah, great to meet you, too.

01:01:54.860 And one day, you know, I'll just, you know, keep looking forward to the day when Ken adds

01:02:00.540 the Nephilim exhibit.

01:02:03.120 It's not going to happen.

01:02:04.700 It'll be when I give it like a million dollar donation.

01:02:09.760 All right.

01:02:10.920 Well, Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:02:13.340 I really appreciate it.

01:02:14.100 And I'm looking forward to our last fourth and final episode that we'll do sometime

01:02:18.820 in the near future.

01:02:20.140 Okay, sounds great.

01:02:21.180 Joel, thanks for having me.

The NXR Podcast - January 08, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - How Fallen Angels Biologically-Engineered The Giants w Dr. Tim Chaffey

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