In this episode of Theology applied, Pastor Joel Webin sits down with Jeremy Carl to discuss his new book, "The Unprotected Class: How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart." Jeremy is a senior fellow at the Claremont institute, a conservative public policy think tank, and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Interior and the National Board of Education.
00:01:53.280Prior to that, I served in the Trump administration.
00:01:55.780I was the deputy assistant secretary of the interior president also later appointed me to
00:01:59.960the national board of education sciences. And prior to that, I worked for many years, uh, at
00:02:06.200the Hoover institution at Stanford university as a research fellow, and that's a conservative
00:02:10.440public policy think tank. And, uh, you know, I've, I have a record going back further than that,
00:02:15.160but that's probably good enough for our discussion today. Great. So, uh, the main reason that we're
00:02:20.800having you on the show is because you wrote kind of just a vanilla, bland book, no controversy at
00:02:26.720all, just basically suggesting that there might be a smidge of racial prejudice against white
00:02:32.480people, right? I imagine the feedback has been just a universal applause. How's that been going
00:02:37.420for you? It's actually, surprisingly, ironies aside, it's been surprisingly good. And it's
00:02:44.220interesting because I've been hit from the left a lot before. I mean, when I was in the administration,
00:02:48.260The Washington Post, among others, and several members of Congress expressed their displeasure with my existence.
00:02:54.360So I figured that as soon as I released my book, The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart, that I would get an avalanche of criticism.
00:03:03.960And I'm sure that the left is just kind of putting together the dossier to hit me.
00:03:08.440But actually, the great thing has been it's been reviewed both in formal reviews and in customer reviews.
00:03:14.760It's been kind of shockingly good feedback.
00:03:18.920And I like to think because I knew that this was a sensitive subject.
00:03:43.620Good. Well, let's start with the facts. What are some of the things that you lay out in the book
00:03:48.340as evidences that they're actually, not even just in a social cultural sense, but on the books,
00:03:56.100maybe legally, or maybe, you know, standards for universities or SAT scores, what are some of the
00:04:02.120actually etched out on paper biases against white people in America?
00:04:07.660Yeah, well, let me kind of give you, I'll kind of start out with the formal things and sort of
00:04:13.600the way my book is structured. And then I'll get into a couple of informal things that I think
00:04:17.600sort of illustrate it nicely. So the formal things, my book is sort of structured that I
00:04:23.160kind of give a lay of the land. I then talk about existing civil rights laws, because I think it's
00:04:27.980very hard to have this conversation without at least a little bit of familiarity with that.
00:04:32.240And then I look at 11 different subject areas. And I look at everything from the church,
00:04:36.600to the environmental movement, to the military, to the healthcare system, to big business,
00:04:41.020to immigration. And for each of these chapters, I kind of sketch out a brief of exactly how
00:04:46.960anti-white racism and discrimination works. I sort of tie that all together. I then have a chapter
00:04:52.580where I look at the motivations for people to do that and why I think this is going on and then
00:05:00.000make some policy suggestions. So there's all sorts of formal things. Again, we can get into this in
00:05:05.720the conversation, but everything from affirmative action to overt job discrimination, where
00:05:10.960people are being told, like, you can't, you know, we have this fellowship, and it's only for
00:05:15.060minorities. This sort of thing is epidemic. And I kind of document a lot of this in the book. But
00:05:21.440I'll give you kind of two informal things that I think illustrate this very nicely. And the first
00:05:28.460is a kind of flight from whiteness that we're seeing in self-identification. So since the 2010
00:05:36.860census, we've had almost a doubling of Native American population, according to the census.
00:05:42.380And we had a collapse in the white identifying Hispanic population. Now, this was not due to
00:05:49.560the deaths of millions of Hispanics or the fact that Native Americans had a big baby boom.
00:05:56.960it's because people are increasingly realizing that it is incredibly advantageous to identify
00:06:02.860as something other than white in America. And so I document this, I lay it out in a great deal of0.52
00:06:08.380detail in the book. And then the second kind of informal thing, which I think kind of just
00:06:13.360illustrates the cultural zeitgeist a little bit. The original title that I had for this book was
00:06:18.960It's Okay to Be White. And that was kind of a snappy little title. And I actually had my
00:06:24.820editorial uh kind of directors they they got behind it and then uh we were told by the sales
00:06:30.740staff ultimately after it had been agreed to for months that yeah we can't sell a book with that
00:06:35.200title in walmart or costco so you're gonna have to change the title um but so you changed it and
00:06:41.460got back to them said all right fine i concede we'll call it it's good to be white in the same
00:06:45.860way it's good to be black or good to be you know because it's more than just okay it's not just
00:06:49.200permissible god it god made you this way it's wonderful so it's good to be white and that's0.81
00:06:53.440what you went with? But you've hit on the core thing, right? Which is, of course, it's okay to0.98
00:06:58.740be black. It's okay to be Hispanic. It's okay to be Asian American. But when you say it's okay to
00:07:03.280be white in our current context, our current cultural context, this is a provocation, you0.76
00:07:08.240know, I might as well put on my KKK hood. And so I think that tells you a lot about where the0.97
00:07:13.580culture is today. Yeah, great point. Here's a question. So this is a conversation that's been
00:07:19.640going on a little bit on Twitter and, you know, behind the scenes privately between conservative
00:07:25.420evangelical pastors. And so some of my friends and peers and then even mentors, we all recognize
00:07:32.660that there is a war culturally, politically. And I'm not saying it's, you know, it's a hot war
00:07:41.760in the same way that, you know, people talk about a cold civil war versus a hot war. So I'm not
00:07:45.700saying that it's gotten to that point praise god not yet hopefully never but um there is a hostility
00:07:50.840and a growing hostility um on white people white america and the the crux of the argument where
00:07:57.920people kind of find themselves on either side of the aisle disagreeing is um is this war on white
00:08:05.060people for lack of a better phrase is it uh synonymous with just a war on christianity
00:08:11.320Is this really just the world as a whole having a sense of hostility towards Western civilization, which is predominantly white, but just really to move it away from just pigment or lack thereof, is it a global war on Western civilization out of some sense of, you know, the neo-Marxist, right?
00:08:31.320Instead of, you know, Elon Musk tweeted this out a while back.0.62
00:08:34.980It's basically the opposite of instead of the Darwinian might makes right.
00:08:39.340So the strong, you know, strength equals morality.
00:09:00.920And yet, right now, in a Marxist kind of leaning thought process in society, people just naturally go with the underdog.
00:09:09.560They just immediately assume that this must be the innocent one, the oppressed one, that, you know, weak makes right.
00:09:16.640So, my point is, is this war, if we could call it that, this hostility animus against white people, could we call it a war on Western civilization, number one?0.99
00:09:29.020And then number two, could we call that a war on Christianity because most Western countries are predominantly or at least historically have been Christian and from that have experienced, I believe, the Christian worldview lends towards, maybe not in one generation, but over centuries, that following Christ and submitting to his law and loving him and making disciples, that it lends towards blessing.
00:09:53.620That's not a prosperity gospel, but I would say, I would add the caveat, following Christ, obeying his law, always leads towards blessing in the life to come and ordinarily leads towards blessing in the temporal world as well.
00:10:07.940So is there this weak against the strong in Western civilization because of his Christian faith has been strong and blessed and then therefore there's an envy?
00:10:16.800or uh the the the other alternative is are there two wars side by side like a venn diagram with
00:10:23.800but most of these two circles overlap like 90 overlap but there is a distinct war on western
00:10:30.200civilization and a distinct war on christianity two separate wars but with a lot of overlap or
00:10:36.300do you see them as one in the same yeah wow i mean there's a lot to tackle in that and i'll see if i
00:10:41.700can get to kind of all of it. But I think that there is an element of this. And I think it's
00:10:47.060good that you've sort of separated them into different wars, because I think that there are
00:10:50.140different things going on. So there's an element about this that is disliking Western civilization,
00:10:56.060you know, hating the church. Absolutely. But when we've got folks like Jamar Tisby
00:11:00.460kind of doing effectively critical race theory in very prominent ways in evangelical circles,
00:11:06.040I think it's too simplistic to say, well, this is about the church. And I don't know if you've
00:11:10.340read Votie Bauckham's book, Fault Lines, which is one that I refer to a lot in my own book.
00:11:16.100But I think he really kind of diagnoses a lot of this, and particularly this strong versus the
00:11:21.500weak and everything, as a form of Christian heresy, really, that has crept in to the church
00:11:26.520that is fundamentally just incompatible with Christian doctrine and this notion that you
00:11:32.860have, I mean, we all, again, I'm a Calvinist, so I mean, we all are inherently sinful from my view,
00:11:38.560But that is not conditioned on our race. It's conditioned on our humanity. And we don't have any special guilt because of our race. So that's why I think it does. When you look internal to the church and you see all this going on, I think it's too simple to say that this is just coming from a hatred of Christianity.
00:11:58.480And I think another kind of data point in that favor is I think a lot of what we're seeing right now in the anti-Israel protests in these universities is fundamentally downstream of anti-whiteness.
00:12:09.880So, I mean, yeah, there's probably some Arab protesters there who really just don't like Jews, but the nice middle class American young women who are sitting in those protest camps are not doing so because they read Der Sturmer and the autobiography of Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, and they were somehow influenced by them.0.75
00:12:28.960it's because they're seeing you know the israelis who are of course jews they're they are0.92
00:12:34.860they're prosperous they're they're western they're white and therefore they're oppressors0.92
00:12:40.180and the palestinians who are brown and again this is their taxonomy obviously if you go to israel you0.94
00:12:44.860don't see this is not really the case uh and therefore they're oppressed and so that's why0.97
00:12:49.360i think that really whiteness is kind of driving the train here and we need to be honest about that
00:12:54.160Amen. Yeah. I, so I, I completely agree. And I've landed on that side of it. You know,0.92
00:12:59.120I threw out two options. I fleshed the first one out, you know, much more thoroughly. But at the
00:13:02.760end there, I said, you know, the second option is, you know, two distinct wars, not one in the same0.78
00:13:07.260war on whiteness is war on Christianity, but a war on whiteness and a war on Christianity with
00:13:11.480a lot of overlap, but still two distinct battles going on. And that's the position that I've landed
00:13:16.260on. And I have some pastor friends and they really are friends, guys who I have learned a ton from
00:13:23.100respect immensely and love immensely. But I appreciate that you brought up Israel because
00:13:28.540I think that that's actually a good case study that proves that these two hostilities against0.56
00:13:33.060Christianity and against whiteness, for lack of a better word, are distinct. They're two separate
00:13:37.740things because, you know, one of my friends that I greatly respect, a pastor, he said that
00:13:43.680the hostility towards Israel is because he lumped it into, yes, of course, Talmudic Judaism is not
00:13:51.520Christianity, um, but it's Christian adjacent. And so, you know, he used a phrase, he said,
00:13:57.140you know, there, there, you know, there are plenty of perversions in the Talmud and this
00:14:00.740and that, and the other, and they've, you know, the whole religion in many ways, it
00:14:03.860does rest on the central focus of a rejection of Christ as the Messiah. That's one of the
00:14:08.420core tenets of Judaism, um, is, is we are not Christian. Um, he said, but their Torah
00:14:13.940observance, which is the old Testament, you know, that, uh, that gives off a whiff of
00:14:18.400christ and so the reason then that's the phrase he used was a whiff of christ and so he said the
00:14:22.440reason why people are against uh israel is uh that's still because the war is there's not two
00:14:28.820wars whiteness and christianity there's one war it's against uh christianity and the hostility
00:14:34.540towards israel is because they're also lumped in as christian adjacent whereas i feel like it's a
00:14:39.340lot easier to argue that israel if the hostility towards israel number one i think israel is
00:14:44.660perfectly capable of garnishing uh enemies all on their own just for themselves number two right
00:14:49.580and that's a long conversation that we don't have to go into but number two um if there's any kind0.87
00:14:54.180of tandem you know latching on i feel like it would be that israel although they they don't
00:14:59.360necessarily every you know jew having white skin i i think that there's more it's an easier case
00:15:05.040to make for israel being white adjacent than christian adjacent that they you know that they're
00:15:09.740lumped in as westerners that they're lumped in as the the you know the american outpost in the east
00:15:17.780um don't you think no i i 100 agree and obviously that's why you know that's why i brought it up i
00:15:24.120think it's just a compelling refutation of the notion that this is really all about christianity
00:15:29.820and i've heard the same thing from some pastors i'm not nearly as versed in this obviously as you
00:15:34.400are, but I still, I do pay attention to these debates online and elsewhere. And I think part
00:15:40.040of the reluctance to see, you know, do this in the church is because confronting race within
00:15:45.480the body of Christ, it's messy, right? Like we don't want to have that there. We want to pretend0.95
00:15:51.540that we're all just as unified as we can be, despite our denominational differences and
00:15:56.640everything else. And to kind of understand that there are some people who are really
00:16:00.960undermining the gospel, maybe not even with malicious intention. Okay. I mean, I think
00:16:05.180most of them not with malicious intention, but fundamentally, like that's what they're doing
00:16:09.920in promulgating these doctrines about essentialist white guilt and systemic racism,
00:16:15.860et cetera, et cetera. You know, we want to pretend that that's not there, but I think
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00:18:42.840to claim your first free bag of coffee today so you said as you were kind of outlining for us0.86
00:18:49.080earlier this is maybe 15 minutes ago you were outlining basically the the order the logical
00:18:54.540order that you laid out your book in uh and one of the things that caught my attention that you
00:18:59.420mentioned was um that you got to you tried to spell out and i'm sure you did it carefully trying
00:19:05.160to avoid just outright speculation, but not just evidences of anti-white bias, whether it be with
00:19:13.980universities or what have you, or medicine or, you know, whatever. But you also tried to get to
00:19:19.440motive. Why? Could you talk a little bit about that for us?
00:19:25.360Yeah, absolutely. And as I say in the book, anytime you get into motives, nobody can know
00:19:30.100the human heart. So you're obviously engaging in a speculative activity. So I kind of put that in
00:19:35.940as a big caveat, even though I marshal, it's not just like, oh, this is my opinion. I mean,
00:19:40.220I marshal a ton of evidence in support of it. But fundamentally, kind of here's my motive that I
00:19:45.380would sketch out. It's really, there are spiritual elements of that. And although I think they're
00:19:50.280secondary, they're useful to talk about. But I think fundamentally, this is a material motive.
00:19:58.140And that motive has been a motive that we've seen in a lot of human conflicts, most human conflicts over history.0.56
00:20:04.800And to oversimplify, whites are at least perceived to have a lot of resources in our society.0.81
00:20:10.720They own even American history in a certain way, if you want to talk about that.0.77
00:20:26.000So what you have to have is what the mid-20th century sociologist C. Wright Mills, who's a very famous sociologist, called a legitimating ideology. So a legitimating ideology is an ideology that you create that justifies kind of doing whatever it is that you want to do, at least in your own mind and to your supporters.
00:20:43.920And so the legitimating ideology is you have all that stuff, white people, because you have white privilege, systemic racism. We talk about critical race theory. If you object to that, it's white fragility. Therefore, justice demands that we take some of your stuff. And that is ultimately the driving motivation of what the conflict is that we're seeing. And again, I lay out the evidences for that in my chapter.
00:21:10.080that yeah that has been my inclination as well that um you know marx uh in his concept you know
00:21:18.100he primarily rooted it in economic class you know and the bourgeoisie you know versus the peasant
00:21:24.540and the working class and that just doesn't seem as though it's it's conducive for a place like
00:21:30.760america especially when you think of the 1900s you know in the 50s and um when yes there is
00:21:37.700a disparity between uh rich and middle class but but in a world where uh the economy has has been
00:21:46.120so strong uh the middle class just don't have that much to be angry about so it's like okay my boss
00:21:52.920makes more than me uh but i still own a home and a car and two weeks of vacation and kids are playing
00:21:59.040on the lawn and i'm just not angry enough to you know to quit my job and and riot and so you know
00:22:05.900But given America's unique history and its origin, you know, economic class warfare, where everybody who makes less than $60,000 unites, despite all their other differences, that probably isn't going to work.
00:22:23.500But to make it about race and past injustices, that with America's history, that one that has some explanatory power, that one might work.
00:22:34.620And so that's why we say neo-Marxism, because it's the same basic concept, but reapplied with different metrics.
00:22:42.960And that has seemed to be the play is I can't just walk up and say, I want your stuff.
00:22:48.420I have to walk up and and give a reason an ideology a reason why you shouldn't have your stuff and why I should and it very much does seem as though that's a lot of what's going on so maybe maybe here towards the end I anything else you want to say leave it all in the field that's what I tell my guests leave it all in the field you know but what did you get to any solutions in your book what do we do yeah absolutely I mean nobody wants to just hear somebody
00:23:18.420complain and say, oh, well, here, let me tell you how awful things are. And let's just trust in
00:23:25.160Christ for the next world. And in this world, it's all completely hopeless. Now, actually,
00:23:30.200theologically, that's arguably a defensible proposition. But I do, of course, suggest
00:23:36.600things that we could do. So I have six formal and six more informal kind of solutions that I put
00:23:43.440forth in my book. I won't go into all of them here just in the interest of time, but I'll give
00:23:47.440you a few of them. So a couple of them on the sort of fall into like, how do we cohere a new
00:23:54.960American identity that's a more unified identity? So the first thing you got to do is you have to
00:23:59.680get control of your border, which means you have to kick out every illegal alien that's in the0.94
00:24:03.840country to the best of your ability. And you've got to pass strict immigration laws. Once you do0.92
00:24:10.940that, and you get a little bit of control of the situation, then you can kind of pursue what some
00:24:17.320scholars would call ethnogenesis. That would be kind of the fancy word or a kind of more intuitive
00:24:23.100word that I kind of like that was used by a multi-ethnic Canadian scholar in a recent book
00:24:28.600named Eric Kaufman is called white shifting. And what is that? Well, white shifting is the notion
00:24:33.820that you've got a lot of groups that we're talking about adjacent, white adjacent or Christian0.61
00:24:39.960adjacent in this country. So you have groups, very large groups like Hispanics that are overwhelmingly
00:24:45.620predominantly of European ancestry, although not universally. Now, Hispanic is just a artificial1.00
00:24:51.620category that was created by the left for the 1980 census. It wasn't, of course, that they
00:24:55.860didn't have a distinct identity as a people to some degree before then, but we lumped them in.
00:25:01.300A lot of them would have kind of considered themselves white at that time. In fact,
00:25:05.560even on the census today, still a lot do. So you take them and a third of them are marrying
00:25:10.780non-Hispanics, whites. So you've got lots of cultural mixing going on there. And I think,
00:25:16.980are you down in Texas? Am I remembering that correctly? So you see a lot of that. I mean,
00:25:20.960when I went down to San Antonio about a month or two ago, I mean, I really saw a lot of that
00:25:25.340kind of mixed majority culture really very visibly, you know, in Texas. So, but beyond that,
00:25:32.180you've got Eurasians and other groups that have a lot of affinity for kind of what we're just
00:25:38.240going to oversimplify and call white culture or even sort of monoethnic people who don't have any
00:25:43.420white background at all, but just kind of feel a great affinity for America's history and
00:25:49.120traditions. If you sort of lump all those groups together and you sort of change laws around how
00:25:54.580people categorize themselves and stop encouraging people to identify as things other than white,
00:26:00.460you could imagine the development in conjunction with getting control of the border of a new
00:26:06.140American majority ethnicity. That's what we call ethnogenesis or white shifting. So that's a couple0.74
00:26:12.100things. Then I'd say beyond that, we've got to look at really fundamentally reformulating civil
00:26:17.580rights laws. And some of the progenitors of mine who've written in narrower but adjacent areas to
00:26:24.480this book, I think this book is the most expansive look at these issues that's really ever been done.
00:26:29.280But they kind of, some of them like to kind of really go after the Civil Rights Act. And I
00:26:34.860actually don't do that. I think it was a very blunt instrument that was used to solve a very
00:26:41.020real problem in 1964. But I would say that we are as far away from that as they were from the Wright
00:26:47.700brothers in terms of timeframe. And we don't have the problem today of people not being served at
00:26:54.720lunch counters. We've got the problem of being told, like, you can't get this job because it's
00:26:59.620reserved for a non-white person. So we need to restore freedom of association. We need to
00:27:04.680kind of basically reformulate in some very fundamental ways our civil rights regime to
00:27:10.680fit the problems of today. And I think one of the ways that finally you get there is ultimately law
00:27:17.200fair. And there's some folks, some friends of mine over at America First Legal in D.C.,
00:27:22.380which is Stephen Miller's shop. Stephen Miller was kind of Trump's right-hand man at the Domestic
00:27:26.620Policy Council. So you basically are taking these things that are being done right now.
00:27:31.380There is all sorts of racial discrimination going on against white people that's just facially
00:27:35.660illegal, hiding in plain sight. Nobody's really challenged it. They're now suing over this. And
00:27:41.280in most cases, they're winning because they have the law actually on their side. So I think those
00:27:47.160are some of the things that I would do to kind of try to address the problems that we're looking at
00:27:51.340today. Yeah. That's very helpful. Yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. I read like
00:27:56.700everybody else in the entire world. Um, we all read Christopher Caldwell, uh, and the age of
00:28:01.640entitlement, which was fantastic. I read that back in, I think 2021, a couple of years after
00:28:06.560it had come out and it was, you know, eyeopening. It was really helpful. And, um, but even in,
00:28:14.440and I, and I, I agreed with the majority of what he wrote. Um, but then later reading,
00:28:19.020you know some follow-up uh different things um i you know i heard some decent cases being made for
00:28:24.960well maybe the civil rights rights act was not the worst idea in the world but um maybe the worst
00:28:31.120part about it is that it would just remain indefinitely that it did it um that you know
00:28:37.020there was a temporary problem that needed a strong uh but temporary solution uh but the problem is
00:28:44.100that what happened is it just lingered and just stayed around forever and then all of a sudden
00:28:48.480And the Civil Rights Act becomes the, it ends up paving the way for LGBTQ rights and all these other things that were not the point.
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00:36:00.940today and get 15% off your purchase. Well, the Nobel Prize winning physicist Niels Bohr said,
00:36:08.740prediction is always difficult, especially about the future. So I want to caveat everything I say
00:36:14.060Right. With that. I don't have a crystal ball. You know, I can read the Bible and tell you how things will eventually end up. But, you know, no, in the sort of near term, how things are going to end up in America.
00:36:26.440But I would say I wrote this book to kind of head off or do whatever small part I can play in heading off a calamity.0.68
00:36:34.780And in fact, I kind of end the first proper chapter of the book to say, hey, look, we have a lot of history that we can look at of multi-ethnic democracies that start fighting a lot around race.0.89
00:36:46.740And it does not end well in 99% of those cases.
00:36:50.980So we need to kind of reorient ourselves pretty fundamentally.
00:36:54.760I think the good news is that if we play our cards right, there are an increasing number of people who recognize this is a problem and we need to do something.
00:37:07.180And you kind of touched at the beginning of our conversation about saying, hey, what was the blowback, et cetera.
00:37:12.800And I said, actually, a little less so far than you'd think.
00:37:15.840And I actually think that's just even in the time I started writing this book two years ago, when I kind of first took up a pen, and of course, I've been thinking about these issues for years. In fact, I've used the analogy in some other interviews that it was a little bit like Jonah, where God told me to go to Nineveh. And I said, No, no, no, you know, I don't want to preach to them about their sin. I'm just going to kind of go move to Montana here and mind my own business, etc.
00:37:41.900And then they sent the fish and it swallowed me. It spit me up on the beach and said, Hey,
00:37:46.300you know, why don't you go to Nineveh? And I said, okay, okay, God, you know, I'll do it.
00:37:49.720So there's a little bit of that. I mean, I was reluctant to even touch this book,
00:37:53.720which is an idea I'd had for a long time of doing it. And then finally, two years ago,
00:37:58.480I just sort of said, okay, you know, it's not being done. Nobody else has kind of really come
00:38:02.080forward. So I'm going to go do it. But even in the time I've wrote the book, when I started,
00:38:08.920I was like, whoa, this tightrope is really narrow and the crocodiles below there look kind of scary.
00:38:14.700And as I've gone through to the point of publication, people are saying, wow, this is really well timed.
00:38:20.460We've got very mainstream figures on the right, like Tucker Carlson and Charlie Kirk, two of the endorsers of the book, or Matt Walsh, who used the term talk about anti-white racism pretty freely.
00:38:33.340we even have Trump in remarks last week that didn't get a lot of attention, but I'll hopefully
00:38:39.560be amplifying, talking. He used the term anti-white and said, hey, you know, that's not okay either.
00:38:45.440So I think the kind of cultural zeitgeist, if you will, around these issues is changing. And
00:38:52.520broadly, that's a good thing. So I think if we've got some people of goodwill, and again,
00:38:58.280I've got a multi-ethnic kind of cast of endorsers of this book. If we can get them all together,
00:40:27.480the science didn't change, the political science changed. America was done with the mask mandates
00:40:33.140and the vaccine mandates. The moment that the American people, it had nothing to do with the
00:40:37.520virus changing or going away. We were done the moment that the American people said, okay,
00:40:44.280we've had enough. We're done. And then it was done. Just like that. Political will is a very
00:40:49.120powerful thing. The problem is that the right, at least the recent right, I think neoconservative
00:40:55.400right you know maybe not paleo conservatives once upon a time god bless them wish they were still
00:41:00.340here but the neoconservative um doesn't have a lot of political will jeremy i don't know if you're
00:41:06.800aware of that but uh conservatives i mean they do have a lot of motivation and energy to do one
00:41:13.880thing and that is to uh to seize defeat out of the jaws of victory you know they're like let's
00:41:22.540do it you know like the i i even with you know the the protest um about israel on you know
00:41:28.580columbia and different you know ivy league colleges and you know universities um it's like
00:41:33.160okay so there's the um there's the leftist uh lgbt purple haired you know uh 22 year old girl
00:41:40.920for palestine right and then there's the marxist university that hates me and my posterity
00:41:46.700right so there's here's the left and here's the left um you know it's like we finally got them
00:41:54.900like they're getting themselves they're shooting themselves and the right's like not if i can help
00:41:58.940it let us step in and save our enemy like i'm like what is going on i just i don't get it
00:42:04.620i couldn't agree with you more i mean both with the specific example that you just cited
00:42:09.380where i you know i'm in that meme you'll sometimes see on the internet of let them fight you know
00:42:14.100We don't need to get involved in this at all. And it's to my great frustration that we are. I'm also just frustrated, of course, with the spinelessness and weakness of our elected leadership to begin with, with obviously some honorable exceptions.
00:42:31.920Folks who are familiar with Claremont know that we have really been on the leading edge of the fighting. Of all those think tanks that would be anywhere near respectability in the country, I think we are unquestionably the most hard-edged and willing to kind of engage in those fights.
00:42:50.560And I'll give you a trivial example from COVID, which you just cited when suddenly people decided that it was enough and it changed.
00:42:59.800A judge, you know, the airlines just kept doing those mask mandates forever.
00:43:05.080And a young federal judge who'd been trained in Claremont's programs, who's 34, I think she's the youngest woman on the federal bench, kind of said, no, you know what?
00:43:14.180Like she gave a long constitutional ruling, very smart.
00:43:16.820I think she was like a Yale law grad or something. But this is not constitutional. Mask mandates are over. And as soon as that ruling came down, all of a sudden, everybody kind of did the right thing, which they kind of wanted to do anyway.
00:43:30.280Which I think also points out the importance of political leadership, because that one thing in that area just flipped things. And every airline got rid of their mask mandate. So that's the sort of leadership that we need.
00:43:42.340I agree. So we need political will. We need leadership. We need courage. Um, what you're
00:43:47.320describing is, you know, leaders stepping out on the front lines and then, um, often, not always,
00:43:53.340sometimes, you know, you stand up alone, right? Sometimes you're Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
00:43:57.220It's like, you stand up and like, all right, everyone stand up with us, you know? And no,
00:44:01.600it's just, it's just the three of you. And, um, and maybe God saves you and maybe he doesn't.
00:44:06.180Um, but, but often, or at least, you know, at least a decent, uh, amount of the time
00:44:13.380you stand up and you find out there's a bunch of other people who are thinking the same
00:46:48.300And I make no, and not even with my nose plugged.
00:46:52.080I will vote for Trump and I'll sleep really well that night and be just fine.
00:46:57.280With a clear conscience before the Lord, knowing that I don't idolize Trump, I don't worship Trump.
00:47:02.420I'm not even sure if he's a brother in Christ.
00:47:04.080I hope he is, you know, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.
00:47:08.940But I think that the people on the right, and especially Christians on the right, are unable to think, they're unable to categorize.
00:47:19.860they they struggle with political theology versus soteriology you know or something you know and
00:47:28.460it's and it's just and that the outcome is just beautiful losers it's it's uh going down with the
00:47:35.820ship you know while standing in a salute you know and just uh face of flint and and um i i what do
00:47:44.040you think about using you know i you know so the concept no enemies on the right maybe not to the
00:47:48.780but on the right. And I think of the things that I can say today, if I had said these things in
00:47:56.0802017, it's over. I would have been, and the point that you made, when you started the book two years
00:48:04.000ago, you were pretty nervous. When it came closer to publication, you're like, hey, this might land
00:48:09.900okay. And then it landed better than okay, it sounds like. I mean, sure, you'll get pushed
00:48:15.460back but but there's been a a large positive reception and so things have been moved but part
00:48:21.380of the reason they've been moving is because of your strategic radicals uh the left has them
00:48:28.160the right has them you don't have to agree with them so i'm not saying somebody says something
00:48:32.160and you you have to retweet them and say yeah you know somebody says uh adolf hitler's the was the
00:48:37.280last christian prince yeah i agree you don't have to do that um right but the right we man i just
00:48:44.100i feel like we shoot our own yeah far more than the left what any thoughts on that that no enemies
00:48:50.680on the right kind of political strategy and idea no i absolutely agree and you cited the phrase
00:48:57.020beautiful losers a couple times and perhaps not coincidentally it's a title of a book of essays
00:49:00.960by sam francis who was a really powerful conservative political theorist who had a0.90
00:49:06.020lot of stuff that was outside the overton window not even all of which i agreed with but um you
00:49:11.240know, a person who 30 years ago in that book really kind of diagnosed a lot of the problems
00:49:16.660that conservatives had, their lack of fighting spirit, their kind of fixation on essentially0.92
00:49:22.400being beautiful losers. And the subtitle of that was Essays on the Failure of American0.68
00:49:27.160Conservatism. So to write that book in 1992, and unbelievably kind of published by a mainstream
00:49:31.920university press at the time that he wrote it, was indicative that the right has had this problem
00:49:37.280for quite a while. And I think absolutely, your point is well taken on radicals. And it's one of
00:49:44.020the reasons why it was so important. And I said so at the time I was even quoted in major news
00:49:49.500outlets of the importance of Elon taking over Twitter, because what it allowed to do is a lot
00:49:54.580of these voices that are well to my right. I mean, I'm like, you know, actually, like,
00:49:59.380like what I'm asking for is very mainstream here, you know, like, I'm not asking for
00:50:03.660thousand-year American Reich or something really weird, right? I'm just saying, hey,
00:50:07.640we should all be treated equally. But what it actually shows when you have those voices back
00:50:14.160in the debate as opposed to being taken off the playing field as all the other social media sites
00:50:18.920had done and Twitter had done before Elon bought it, is I can say, hey, look, there are these
00:50:24.000crazies to the right of me. And I'm not kidding. I mean, of course, a lot of them really are kind
00:50:27.560of crazy. But the left can see, oh, actually, those people actually have a lot of following.
00:50:32.700Maybe this Jeremy guy, he actually isn't so crazy after all.0.51
00:50:37.340Maybe we could do business with him because it's a lot more preferable to compromise with somebody who's saying what he is than trying to compromise with the totally crazy nutcase over there on the far right.
00:50:49.840And I'm not, of course, saying that everybody to the right of me falls into that description.
00:50:53.480There's a lot of good friends of mine who are probably maybe not that many to the right.
00:51:17.320I kind of echo all your comments about Trump.
00:51:19.540And again, it's sort of like Trump loves winning and he hates losing.
00:51:23.620And for whatever his moral shortcomings, that matters a lot because the right needs a lot more of that mentality rather than the beautiful loser mentality.
00:51:34.100Right. Okay. Well, here we are at the end. Any final thoughts for the listener?
00:51:39.260No. I mean, I just thank you for having me on. Again, the name of the book is The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.
00:51:47.200you can find me on x slash twitter at real jeremy carl you can find me on substack i have a substack
00:51:53.500called the course of empire and i guess i'd kind of make the pitch um to to your listeners um the
00:52:00.560book has gotten a great reception the the sales have been better than i could have possibly hoped
00:52:05.180for so that's been really gratifying um but uh even if i i hope that you've been uh folks have
00:52:12.140been really swayed by my arguments but even if you're like well i don't know about this element
00:52:15.540of what he said. If you buy a book like this, you don't make me rich, unfortunately, if you know
00:52:20.760anything about the publishing business. It's pretty marginal for my net worth. But it does
00:52:24.860send a signal to publishers that, wow, there's a market for people who are interested in this.
00:52:30.380We should have more books like this. And so that way, people like me are not alone out on an
00:52:35.240island, but we've got more people making these cases in different and hopefully even better
00:52:39.740ways you know in the future and so these discussions become much more a part of the
00:52:44.500mainstream and and much less something where i'm having to move the overton window so that's what
00:52:49.880i'm trying to do and i appreciate being able to to talk to you about that absolutely well it was
00:52:54.600yeah we appreciate it's an honor to have you on the show um in in that vein of strategy um and
00:53:01.280signaling to publishers uh that hey the public wants more of this where would be the best place
00:53:07.120for them to get your book and to leave a review amazon or amazon is always best although i would
00:53:12.940say that um if you can leave certainly to buy because i think that's where most people are
00:53:17.760buying and and um then if if more people are buying it more random people just sort of see
00:53:23.220it on the algorithm right um so that's that's good but also certainly especially for reviews
00:53:28.420i've already got um a significant number of five star average amazon reviews so if you if you read
00:53:34.720the book and like it and want to go on barnesandnoble.com or thrift books or whatever,
00:53:38.840that's fantastic. And certainly if you buy on those platforms, that's also fantastic. Or
00:53:43.500your local bookstore. And I think because of the early sales being so good, more and more local
00:53:47.940bookstores will probably be carrying this. So buy it wherever you like, as long as you buy it. I
00:53:53.520promise it's not going to add more than a few dollars, sadly, to my net worth, but it does get
00:53:58.520the issue out there. And that's really why I wrote it. Great. Well, thank you, Jeremy. Keep it up.
00:54:02.560the good work we appreciate it thanks so much for having me on