The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - It’s Okay To Be White with Jeremy Carl

00:00:00.000 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:02.500 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:05.640 In this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to the show, for the first time, Jeremy Carl.

00:00:10.200 Jeremy Carl just wrote a book that actually has had a decent reception, maybe a little

00:00:16.280 bit surprisingly positive, but the book, ordinarily, just from the title, you would think is perhaps

00:00:22.260 a little controversial.

00:00:23.480 It's called The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

00:00:30.000 He's dealing with a war, not necessarily a hot, literal war, but a cold war that has

00:00:35.860 been going on for a while in America against white people, that there really is an anti-white

00:00:41.780 discrimination.

00:00:42.780 So we're talking about the war on whiteness.

00:00:45.360 Is this war on whiteness really just a war on Christianity, or are there two wars, a

00:00:49.360 war on Christianity, war on whiteness side by side, overlapping in some parts, all these

00:00:54.300 kinds of things, the evidences, what are your evidences that you actually lay out in the

00:00:59.040 book that proves your case that there is an anti-white discrimination this is what we discuss

00:01:04.160 as well as solutions and predictions it's a fun episode i hope you enjoy applying god's word to

00:01:11.280 every aspect of life this is theology applied all right welcome back to another episode of

00:01:22.100 theology applied i am your host pastor joel webin with right response ministries and in this episode

00:01:26.880 I'm privileged to welcome to the show, Jeremy Carl.

00:01:29.720 Jeremy, thanks for coming on.

00:01:31.900 Thanks so much for having me, Joel.

00:01:32.800 I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

00:01:34.840 Me too.

00:01:35.400 So real quick, give a little bit of background.

00:01:37.520 What do you do for work right now?

00:01:38.840 Where have you been?

00:01:39.540 Where are you going?

00:01:40.920 Sure.

00:01:41.740 So I'm a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute, which is a big public policy think tank.

00:01:45.980 It's actually based out of California and Texas, kind of the headquarters, but I work

00:01:51.300 out of my home in Montana.

00:01:53.280 Prior to that, I served in the Trump administration.

00:01:55.780 I was the deputy assistant secretary of the interior president also later appointed me to

00:01:59.960 the national board of education sciences. And prior to that, I worked for many years, uh, at

00:02:06.200 the Hoover institution at Stanford university as a research fellow, and that's a conservative

00:02:10.440 public policy think tank. And, uh, you know, I've, I have a record going back further than that,

00:02:15.160 but that's probably good enough for our discussion today. Great. So, uh, the main reason that we're

00:02:20.800 having you on the show is because you wrote kind of just a vanilla, bland book, no controversy at

00:02:26.720 all, just basically suggesting that there might be a smidge of racial prejudice against white

00:02:32.480 people, right? I imagine the feedback has been just a universal applause. How's that been going

00:02:37.420 for you? It's actually, surprisingly, ironies aside, it's been surprisingly good. And it's

00:02:44.220 interesting because I've been hit from the left a lot before. I mean, when I was in the administration,

00:02:48.260 The Washington Post, among others, and several members of Congress expressed their displeasure with my existence.

00:02:54.360 So I figured that as soon as I released my book, The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart, that I would get an avalanche of criticism.

00:03:03.960 And I'm sure that the left is just kind of putting together the dossier to hit me.

00:03:08.440 But actually, the great thing has been it's been reviewed both in formal reviews and in customer reviews.

00:03:14.760 It's been kind of shockingly good feedback.

00:03:18.920 And I like to think because I knew that this was a sensitive subject.

00:03:23.220 And so it was provocative enough.

00:03:25.800 I really tried to stick with a just the facts, ma'am, type approach.

00:03:29.200 I've got like almost a thousand references in there.

00:03:31.500 And I didn't try to exceed my brief.

00:03:34.320 And I just made my case.

00:03:35.700 And so I think it's a little bit hard to hit.

00:03:39.260 And so that's been actually a really pleasant surprise.

00:03:43.020 Good.

00:03:43.620 Good. Well, let's start with the facts. What are some of the things that you lay out in the book

00:03:48.340 as evidences that they're actually, not even just in a social cultural sense, but on the books,

00:03:56.100 maybe legally, or maybe, you know, standards for universities or SAT scores, what are some of the

00:04:02.120 actually etched out on paper biases against white people in America?

00:04:07.660 Yeah, well, let me kind of give you, I'll kind of start out with the formal things and sort of

00:04:13.600 the way my book is structured. And then I'll get into a couple of informal things that I think

00:04:17.600 sort of illustrate it nicely. So the formal things, my book is sort of structured that I

00:04:23.160 kind of give a lay of the land. I then talk about existing civil rights laws, because I think it's

00:04:27.980 very hard to have this conversation without at least a little bit of familiarity with that.

00:04:32.240 And then I look at 11 different subject areas. And I look at everything from the church,

00:04:36.600 to the environmental movement, to the military, to the healthcare system, to big business,

00:04:41.020 to immigration. And for each of these chapters, I kind of sketch out a brief of exactly how

00:04:46.960 anti-white racism and discrimination works. I sort of tie that all together. I then have a chapter

00:04:52.580 where I look at the motivations for people to do that and why I think this is going on and then

00:05:00.000 make some policy suggestions. So there's all sorts of formal things. Again, we can get into this in

00:05:05.720 the conversation, but everything from affirmative action to overt job discrimination, where

00:05:10.960 people are being told, like, you can't, you know, we have this fellowship, and it's only for

00:05:15.060 minorities. This sort of thing is epidemic. And I kind of document a lot of this in the book. But

00:05:21.440 I'll give you kind of two informal things that I think illustrate this very nicely. And the first

00:05:28.460 is a kind of flight from whiteness that we're seeing in self-identification. So since the 2010

00:05:36.860 census, we've had almost a doubling of Native American population, according to the census.

00:05:42.380 And we had a collapse in the white identifying Hispanic population. Now, this was not due to

00:05:49.560 the deaths of millions of Hispanics or the fact that Native Americans had a big baby boom.

00:05:56.960 it's because people are increasingly realizing that it is incredibly advantageous to identify

00:06:02.860 as something other than white in America. And so I document this, I lay it out in a great deal of 0.52

00:06:08.380 detail in the book. And then the second kind of informal thing, which I think kind of just

00:06:13.360 illustrates the cultural zeitgeist a little bit. The original title that I had for this book was

00:06:18.960 It's Okay to Be White. And that was kind of a snappy little title. And I actually had my

00:06:24.820 editorial uh kind of directors they they got behind it and then uh we were told by the sales

00:06:30.740 staff ultimately after it had been agreed to for months that yeah we can't sell a book with that

00:06:35.200 title in walmart or costco so you're gonna have to change the title um but so you changed it and

00:06:41.460 got back to them said all right fine i concede we'll call it it's good to be white in the same

00:06:45.860 way it's good to be black or good to be you know because it's more than just okay it's not just

00:06:49.200 permissible god it god made you this way it's wonderful so it's good to be white and that's 0.81

00:06:53.440 what you went with? But you've hit on the core thing, right? Which is, of course, it's okay to 0.98

00:06:58.740 be black. It's okay to be Hispanic. It's okay to be Asian American. But when you say it's okay to

00:07:03.280 be white in our current context, our current cultural context, this is a provocation, you 0.76

00:07:08.240 know, I might as well put on my KKK hood. And so I think that tells you a lot about where the 0.97

00:07:13.580 culture is today. Yeah, great point. Here's a question. So this is a conversation that's been

00:07:19.640 going on a little bit on Twitter and, you know, behind the scenes privately between conservative

00:07:25.420 evangelical pastors. And so some of my friends and peers and then even mentors, we all recognize

00:07:32.660 that there is a war culturally, politically. And I'm not saying it's, you know, it's a hot war

00:07:41.760 in the same way that, you know, people talk about a cold civil war versus a hot war. So I'm not

00:07:45.700 saying that it's gotten to that point praise god not yet hopefully never but um there is a hostility

00:07:50.840 and a growing hostility um on white people white america and the the crux of the argument where

00:07:57.920 people kind of find themselves on either side of the aisle disagreeing is um is this war on white

00:08:05.060 people for lack of a better phrase is it uh synonymous with just a war on christianity

00:08:11.320 Is this really just the world as a whole having a sense of hostility towards Western civilization, which is predominantly white, but just really to move it away from just pigment or lack thereof, is it a global war on Western civilization out of some sense of, you know, the neo-Marxist, right?

00:08:31.320 Instead of, you know, Elon Musk tweeted this out a while back. 0.62

00:08:34.980 It's basically the opposite of instead of the Darwinian might makes right.

00:08:39.340 So the strong, you know, strength equals morality.

00:08:42.300 It's the opposite.

00:08:43.400 It's weak makes right.

00:08:44.440 So if you're weaker, you could be as sinister as all get out.

00:08:48.400 But so long as you're, if you're little and you're picking on someone bigger than you,

00:08:53.220 the person bigger than you could have all the virtues imaginable and you could actually be 0.78

00:08:59.020 a complete degenerate.

00:09:00.920 And yet, right now, in a Marxist kind of leaning thought process in society, people just naturally go with the underdog.

00:09:09.560 They just immediately assume that this must be the innocent one, the oppressed one, that, you know, weak makes right.

00:09:16.640 So, my point is, is this war, if we could call it that, this hostility animus against white people, could we call it a war on Western civilization, number one? 0.99

00:09:29.020 And then number two, could we call that a war on Christianity because most Western countries are predominantly or at least historically have been Christian and from that have experienced, I believe, the Christian worldview lends towards, maybe not in one generation, but over centuries, that following Christ and submitting to his law and loving him and making disciples, that it lends towards blessing.

00:09:53.620 That's not a prosperity gospel, but I would say, I would add the caveat, following Christ, obeying his law, always leads towards blessing in the life to come and ordinarily leads towards blessing in the temporal world as well.

00:10:06.680 We've seen that over centuries.

00:10:07.940 So is there this weak against the strong in Western civilization because of his Christian faith has been strong and blessed and then therefore there's an envy?

00:10:16.800 or uh the the the other alternative is are there two wars side by side like a venn diagram with

00:10:23.800 but most of these two circles overlap like 90 overlap but there is a distinct war on western

00:10:30.200 civilization and a distinct war on christianity two separate wars but with a lot of overlap or

00:10:36.300 do you see them as one in the same yeah wow i mean there's a lot to tackle in that and i'll see if i

00:10:41.700 can get to kind of all of it. But I think that there is an element of this. And I think it's

00:10:47.060 good that you've sort of separated them into different wars, because I think that there are

00:10:50.140 different things going on. So there's an element about this that is disliking Western civilization,

00:10:56.060 you know, hating the church. Absolutely. But when we've got folks like Jamar Tisby

00:11:00.460 kind of doing effectively critical race theory in very prominent ways in evangelical circles,

00:11:06.040 I think it's too simplistic to say, well, this is about the church. And I don't know if you've

00:11:10.340 read Votie Bauckham's book, Fault Lines, which is one that I refer to a lot in my own book.

00:11:16.100 But I think he really kind of diagnoses a lot of this, and particularly this strong versus the

00:11:21.500 weak and everything, as a form of Christian heresy, really, that has crept in to the church

00:11:26.520 that is fundamentally just incompatible with Christian doctrine and this notion that you

00:11:32.860 have, I mean, we all, again, I'm a Calvinist, so I mean, we all are inherently sinful from my view,

00:11:38.560 But that is not conditioned on our race. It's conditioned on our humanity. And we don't have any special guilt because of our race. So that's why I think it does. When you look internal to the church and you see all this going on, I think it's too simple to say that this is just coming from a hatred of Christianity.

00:11:58.480 And I think another kind of data point in that favor is I think a lot of what we're seeing right now in the anti-Israel protests in these universities is fundamentally downstream of anti-whiteness.

00:12:09.880 So, I mean, yeah, there's probably some Arab protesters there who really just don't like Jews, but the nice middle class American young women who are sitting in those protest camps are not doing so because they read Der Sturmer and the autobiography of Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, and they were somehow influenced by them. 0.75

00:12:28.960 it's because they're seeing you know the israelis who are of course jews they're they are 0.92

00:12:34.860 they're prosperous they're they're western they're white and therefore they're oppressors 0.92

00:12:40.180 and the palestinians who are brown and again this is their taxonomy obviously if you go to israel you 0.94

00:12:44.860 don't see this is not really the case uh and therefore they're oppressed and so that's why 0.97

00:12:49.360 i think that really whiteness is kind of driving the train here and we need to be honest about that

00:12:54.160 Amen. Yeah. I, so I, I completely agree. And I've landed on that side of it. You know, 0.92

00:12:59.120 I threw out two options. I fleshed the first one out, you know, much more thoroughly. But at the

00:13:02.760 end there, I said, you know, the second option is, you know, two distinct wars, not one in the same 0.78

00:13:07.260 war on whiteness is war on Christianity, but a war on whiteness and a war on Christianity with

00:13:11.480 a lot of overlap, but still two distinct battles going on. And that's the position that I've landed

00:13:16.260 on. And I have some pastor friends and they really are friends, guys who I have learned a ton from

00:13:23.100 respect immensely and love immensely. But I appreciate that you brought up Israel because

00:13:28.540 I think that that's actually a good case study that proves that these two hostilities against 0.56

00:13:33.060 Christianity and against whiteness, for lack of a better word, are distinct. They're two separate

00:13:37.740 things because, you know, one of my friends that I greatly respect, a pastor, he said that

00:13:43.680 the hostility towards Israel is because he lumped it into, yes, of course, Talmudic Judaism is not

00:13:51.520 Christianity, um, but it's Christian adjacent. And so, you know, he used a phrase, he said,

00:13:57.140 you know, there, there, you know, there are plenty of perversions in the Talmud and this

00:14:00.740 and that, and the other, and they've, you know, the whole religion in many ways, it

00:14:03.860 does rest on the central focus of a rejection of Christ as the Messiah. That's one of the

00:14:08.420 core tenets of Judaism, um, is, is we are not Christian. Um, he said, but their Torah

00:14:13.940 observance, which is the old Testament, you know, that, uh, that gives off a whiff of

00:14:18.400 christ and so the reason then that's the phrase he used was a whiff of christ and so he said the

00:14:22.440 reason why people are against uh israel is uh that's still because the war is there's not two

00:14:28.820 wars whiteness and christianity there's one war it's against uh christianity and the hostility

00:14:34.540 towards israel is because they're also lumped in as christian adjacent whereas i feel like it's a

00:14:39.340 lot easier to argue that israel if the hostility towards israel number one i think israel is

00:14:44.660 perfectly capable of garnishing uh enemies all on their own just for themselves number two right

00:14:49.580 and that's a long conversation that we don't have to go into but number two um if there's any kind 0.87

00:14:54.180 of tandem you know latching on i feel like it would be that israel although they they don't

00:14:59.360 necessarily every you know jew having white skin i i think that there's more it's an easier case

00:15:05.040 to make for israel being white adjacent than christian adjacent that they you know that they're

00:15:09.740 lumped in as westerners that they're lumped in as the the you know the american outpost in the east

00:15:17.780 um don't you think no i i 100 agree and obviously that's why you know that's why i brought it up i

00:15:24.120 think it's just a compelling refutation of the notion that this is really all about christianity

00:15:29.820 and i've heard the same thing from some pastors i'm not nearly as versed in this obviously as you

00:15:34.400 are, but I still, I do pay attention to these debates online and elsewhere. And I think part

00:15:40.040 of the reluctance to see, you know, do this in the church is because confronting race within

00:15:45.480 the body of Christ, it's messy, right? Like we don't want to have that there. We want to pretend 0.95

00:15:51.540 that we're all just as unified as we can be, despite our denominational differences and

00:15:56.640 everything else. And to kind of understand that there are some people who are really

00:16:00.960 undermining the gospel, maybe not even with malicious intention. Okay. I mean, I think

00:16:05.180 most of them not with malicious intention, but fundamentally, like that's what they're doing

00:16:09.920 in promulgating these doctrines about essentialist white guilt and systemic racism,

00:16:15.860 et cetera, et cetera. You know, we want to pretend that that's not there, but I think

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00:18:42.840 to claim your first free bag of coffee today so you said as you were kind of outlining for us 0.86

00:18:49.080 earlier this is maybe 15 minutes ago you were outlining basically the the order the logical

00:18:54.540 order that you laid out your book in uh and one of the things that caught my attention that you

00:18:59.420 mentioned was um that you got to you tried to spell out and i'm sure you did it carefully trying

00:19:05.160 to avoid just outright speculation, but not just evidences of anti-white bias, whether it be with

00:19:13.980 universities or what have you, or medicine or, you know, whatever. But you also tried to get to

00:19:19.440 motive. Why? Could you talk a little bit about that for us?

00:19:25.360 Yeah, absolutely. And as I say in the book, anytime you get into motives, nobody can know

00:19:30.100 the human heart. So you're obviously engaging in a speculative activity. So I kind of put that in

00:19:35.940 as a big caveat, even though I marshal, it's not just like, oh, this is my opinion. I mean,

00:19:40.220 I marshal a ton of evidence in support of it. But fundamentally, kind of here's my motive that I

00:19:45.380 would sketch out. It's really, there are spiritual elements of that. And although I think they're

00:19:50.280 secondary, they're useful to talk about. But I think fundamentally, this is a material motive.

00:19:58.140 And that motive has been a motive that we've seen in a lot of human conflicts, most human conflicts over history. 0.56

00:20:04.800 And to oversimplify, whites are at least perceived to have a lot of resources in our society. 0.81

00:20:10.720 They own even American history in a certain way, if you want to talk about that. 0.77

00:20:14.640 Again, I'm oversimplifying.

00:20:16.760 Other groups want those resources.

00:20:19.120 But in 2024, you don't come up to somebody and just say, hey, I'm taking your stuff.

00:20:24.540 That's not seen as acceptable.

00:20:26.000 So what you have to have is what the mid-20th century sociologist C. Wright Mills, who's a very famous sociologist, called a legitimating ideology. So a legitimating ideology is an ideology that you create that justifies kind of doing whatever it is that you want to do, at least in your own mind and to your supporters.

00:20:43.920 And so the legitimating ideology is you have all that stuff, white people, because you have white privilege, systemic racism. We talk about critical race theory. If you object to that, it's white fragility. Therefore, justice demands that we take some of your stuff. And that is ultimately the driving motivation of what the conflict is that we're seeing. And again, I lay out the evidences for that in my chapter.

00:21:10.080 that yeah that has been my inclination as well that um you know marx uh in his concept you know

00:21:18.100 he primarily rooted it in economic class you know and the bourgeoisie you know versus the peasant

00:21:24.540 and the working class and that just doesn't seem as though it's it's conducive for a place like

00:21:30.760 america especially when you think of the 1900s you know in the 50s and um when yes there is

00:21:37.700 a disparity between uh rich and middle class but but in a world where uh the economy has has been

00:21:46.120 so strong uh the middle class just don't have that much to be angry about so it's like okay my boss

00:21:52.920 makes more than me uh but i still own a home and a car and two weeks of vacation and kids are playing

00:21:59.040 on the lawn and i'm just not angry enough to you know to quit my job and and riot and so you know

00:22:05.900 But given America's unique history and its origin, you know, economic class warfare, where everybody who makes less than $60,000 unites, despite all their other differences, that probably isn't going to work.

00:22:23.500 But to make it about race and past injustices, that with America's history, that one that has some explanatory power, that one might work.

00:22:34.620 And so that's why we say neo-Marxism, because it's the same basic concept, but reapplied with different metrics.

00:22:42.960 And that has seemed to be the play is I can't just walk up and say, I want your stuff.

00:22:48.420 I have to walk up and and give a reason an ideology a reason why you shouldn't have your stuff and why I should and it very much does seem as though that's a lot of what's going on so maybe maybe here towards the end I anything else you want to say leave it all in the field that's what I tell my guests leave it all in the field you know but what did you get to any solutions in your book what do we do yeah absolutely I mean nobody wants to just hear somebody

00:23:18.420 complain and say, oh, well, here, let me tell you how awful things are. And let's just trust in

00:23:25.160 Christ for the next world. And in this world, it's all completely hopeless. Now, actually,

00:23:30.200 theologically, that's arguably a defensible proposition. But I do, of course, suggest

00:23:36.600 things that we could do. So I have six formal and six more informal kind of solutions that I put

00:23:43.440 forth in my book. I won't go into all of them here just in the interest of time, but I'll give

00:23:47.440 you a few of them. So a couple of them on the sort of fall into like, how do we cohere a new

00:23:54.960 American identity that's a more unified identity? So the first thing you got to do is you have to

00:23:59.680 get control of your border, which means you have to kick out every illegal alien that's in the 0.94

00:24:03.840 country to the best of your ability. And you've got to pass strict immigration laws. Once you do 0.92

00:24:10.940 that, and you get a little bit of control of the situation, then you can kind of pursue what some

00:24:17.320 scholars would call ethnogenesis. That would be kind of the fancy word or a kind of more intuitive

00:24:23.100 word that I kind of like that was used by a multi-ethnic Canadian scholar in a recent book

00:24:28.600 named Eric Kaufman is called white shifting. And what is that? Well, white shifting is the notion

00:24:33.820 that you've got a lot of groups that we're talking about adjacent, white adjacent or Christian 0.61

00:24:39.960 adjacent in this country. So you have groups, very large groups like Hispanics that are overwhelmingly

00:24:45.620 predominantly of European ancestry, although not universally. Now, Hispanic is just a artificial 1.00

00:24:51.620 category that was created by the left for the 1980 census. It wasn't, of course, that they

00:24:55.860 didn't have a distinct identity as a people to some degree before then, but we lumped them in.

00:25:01.300 A lot of them would have kind of considered themselves white at that time. In fact,

00:25:05.560 even on the census today, still a lot do. So you take them and a third of them are marrying

00:25:10.780 non-Hispanics, whites. So you've got lots of cultural mixing going on there. And I think,

00:25:16.980 are you down in Texas? Am I remembering that correctly? So you see a lot of that. I mean,

00:25:20.960 when I went down to San Antonio about a month or two ago, I mean, I really saw a lot of that

00:25:25.340 kind of mixed majority culture really very visibly, you know, in Texas. So, but beyond that,

00:25:32.180 you've got Eurasians and other groups that have a lot of affinity for kind of what we're just

00:25:38.240 going to oversimplify and call white culture or even sort of monoethnic people who don't have any

00:25:43.420 white background at all, but just kind of feel a great affinity for America's history and

00:25:49.120 traditions. If you sort of lump all those groups together and you sort of change laws around how

00:25:54.580 people categorize themselves and stop encouraging people to identify as things other than white,

00:26:00.460 you could imagine the development in conjunction with getting control of the border of a new

00:26:06.140 American majority ethnicity. That's what we call ethnogenesis or white shifting. So that's a couple 0.74

00:26:12.100 things. Then I'd say beyond that, we've got to look at really fundamentally reformulating civil

00:26:17.580 rights laws. And some of the progenitors of mine who've written in narrower but adjacent areas to

00:26:24.480 this book, I think this book is the most expansive look at these issues that's really ever been done.

00:26:29.280 But they kind of, some of them like to kind of really go after the Civil Rights Act. And I

00:26:34.860 actually don't do that. I think it was a very blunt instrument that was used to solve a very

00:26:41.020 real problem in 1964. But I would say that we are as far away from that as they were from the Wright

00:26:47.700 brothers in terms of timeframe. And we don't have the problem today of people not being served at

00:26:54.720 lunch counters. We've got the problem of being told, like, you can't get this job because it's

00:26:59.620 reserved for a non-white person. So we need to restore freedom of association. We need to

00:27:04.680 kind of basically reformulate in some very fundamental ways our civil rights regime to

00:27:10.680 fit the problems of today. And I think one of the ways that finally you get there is ultimately law

00:27:17.200 fair. And there's some folks, some friends of mine over at America First Legal in D.C.,

00:27:22.380 which is Stephen Miller's shop. Stephen Miller was kind of Trump's right-hand man at the Domestic

00:27:26.620 Policy Council. So you basically are taking these things that are being done right now.

00:27:31.380 There is all sorts of racial discrimination going on against white people that's just facially

00:27:35.660 illegal, hiding in plain sight. Nobody's really challenged it. They're now suing over this. And

00:27:41.280 in most cases, they're winning because they have the law actually on their side. So I think those

00:27:47.160 are some of the things that I would do to kind of try to address the problems that we're looking at

00:27:51.340 today. Yeah. That's very helpful. Yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. I read like

00:27:56.700 everybody else in the entire world. Um, we all read Christopher Caldwell, uh, and the age of

00:28:01.640 entitlement, which was fantastic. I read that back in, I think 2021, a couple of years after

00:28:06.560 it had come out and it was, you know, eyeopening. It was really helpful. And, um, but even in,

00:28:14.440 and I, and I, I agreed with the majority of what he wrote. Um, but then later reading,

00:28:19.020 you know some follow-up uh different things um i you know i heard some decent cases being made for

00:28:24.960 well maybe the civil rights rights act was not the worst idea in the world but um maybe the worst

00:28:31.120 part about it is that it would just remain indefinitely that it did it um that you know

00:28:37.020 there was a temporary problem that needed a strong uh but temporary solution uh but the problem is

00:28:44.100 that what happened is it just lingered and just stayed around forever and then all of a sudden

00:28:48.480 And the Civil Rights Act becomes the, it ends up paving the way for LGBTQ rights and all these other things that were not the point.

00:29:03.980 So, yeah. 0.97

00:29:05.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:06.280 And I'm glad that you brought that up because this is, again, something I talk a fair bit about in the book.

00:29:11.460 So you have the act and then you have everything that followed on the act.

00:29:15.260 And I actually think that that's been much more damaging than anything in the act itself.

00:29:19.300 So there's a bunch of stuff that the deep state or the administrative state or whatever

00:29:22.580 you want to call it latches onto, makes a bunch of rulings that are not in the statute.

00:29:28.980 And if you go back and actually read the original text of the debates around the statute, it

00:29:33.060 was really clear that they did not intend for anything like that to be in the statute,

00:29:37.420 but they just put it in.

00:29:39.240 And then you have times where the Supreme Court does really bad things and then actually

00:29:43.340 tries to sometimes correct them only to be shot down. So the most kind of famous case I write

00:29:48.600 about in my book is Griggs versus Duke Power. It's a 1971 case that has, you know, average person

00:29:54.560 doesn't know it, but it has huge effects on what we do. And that is where a doctrine called

00:30:00.000 disparate impact is invented out of whole cloth. And that basically says, I'm oversimplifying for

00:30:04.880 any lawyers who are listening, but it says, if you have a job hiring process, and it winds up

00:30:12.300 with a substantially non-identical to your population size hiring result, that it is said

00:30:21.700 to have a disparate impact on the groups that are underrepresented. And therefore, you have to jump

00:30:27.260 through all these hoops to kind of show that there was a big business necessity. And it doesn't

00:30:32.560 matter, even if there's no intent to discriminate, and there was no intent on Duke Power's part to

00:30:38.560 discriminate, or at least none was alleged or proved. The Supreme Court says in 1971,

00:30:42.940 it doesn't matter. Now, that ruling turns out to be so radical that in 1989, the court does

00:30:52.260 something very unusual, which is they fundamentally kind of walk it back. They decide in a case called

00:30:57.320 Ward's Cove, they basically dramatically raise the threshold that you have to prove discrimination

00:31:02.980 in this case. And so that should have fixed it. But at that point, the civil rights groups

00:31:09.340 establishment freak out. The older Bush administration, so not Bush Jr., but his dad,

00:31:16.160 who's just kind of a weak sister, unfortunately, although well-intentioned in some ways,

00:31:21.420 caves under public pressure, and they end up effectively putting Griggs v. Duke power

00:31:27.460 in a statute so that it passes as part of a civil rights act of 1991 and so there's all sorts of

00:31:34.280 follow-on things like that that happen that were not part of the original civil rights struggle

00:31:38.780 that have been incredibly destructive in terms of uh kind of getting rid of racial preferences

00:31:44.920 in this country i see that's helpful um okay well maybe for the rest of the episode i would just be

00:31:51.620 curious to hear and again leave it all in the field if there's something you want to go back

00:31:55.740 to you or something else from the book that you want to discuss but i'm curious to hear you know

00:31:59.500 we've talked a little bit about evidences of an anti-white anti-white discrimination we've talked

00:32:05.720 a little bit about motives for why we've talked a little bit about solutions and how to fix it

00:32:10.020 um maybe predictions could be fun um yeah what uh do are we going to get out of this

00:32:19.120 easily or, or I kind of had the sense that things may get a little bit worse before they get better

00:32:26.680 for America. And, and then with that, you know, we're in an election year. Um, I, I actually

00:32:33.700 think by golly, I actually think Trump could win. And, um, and I just wondering how, you know,

00:32:41.720 how much of the country will be left after, you know, most of it burns down, you know,

00:32:46.440 When the election results are announced, you know, what do you what do you predict?

00:32:51.720 Let's do it like this.

00:32:52.640 Let's do short term and then long term, long, you know, relatively long, meaning, you know, five, 10, 15 years.

00:32:58.280 But, you know, over the course of this year being an election year, what do you see?

00:33:01.660 How do you see things playing out?

00:33:03.240 And then over the next five, 10 years, do we get better with race relations in our country?

00:33:08.600 Do they get worse?

00:33:10.240 What are you predicting?

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00:36:00.940 today and get 15% off your purchase. Well, the Nobel Prize winning physicist Niels Bohr said,

00:36:08.740 prediction is always difficult, especially about the future. So I want to caveat everything I say

00:36:14.060 Right. With that. I don't have a crystal ball. You know, I can read the Bible and tell you how things will eventually end up. But, you know, no, in the sort of near term, how things are going to end up in America.

00:36:26.440 But I would say I wrote this book to kind of head off or do whatever small part I can play in heading off a calamity. 0.68

00:36:34.780 And in fact, I kind of end the first proper chapter of the book to say, hey, look, we have a lot of history that we can look at of multi-ethnic democracies that start fighting a lot around race. 0.89

00:36:46.740 And it does not end well in 99% of those cases.

00:36:50.980 So we need to kind of reorient ourselves pretty fundamentally.

00:36:54.760 I think the good news is that if we play our cards right, there are an increasing number of people who recognize this is a problem and we need to do something.

00:37:07.180 And you kind of touched at the beginning of our conversation about saying, hey, what was the blowback, et cetera.

00:37:12.800 And I said, actually, a little less so far than you'd think.

00:37:15.840 And I actually think that's just even in the time I started writing this book two years ago, when I kind of first took up a pen, and of course, I've been thinking about these issues for years. In fact, I've used the analogy in some other interviews that it was a little bit like Jonah, where God told me to go to Nineveh. And I said, No, no, no, you know, I don't want to preach to them about their sin. I'm just going to kind of go move to Montana here and mind my own business, etc.

00:37:41.900 And then they sent the fish and it swallowed me. It spit me up on the beach and said, Hey,

00:37:46.300 you know, why don't you go to Nineveh? And I said, okay, okay, God, you know, I'll do it.

00:37:49.720 So there's a little bit of that. I mean, I was reluctant to even touch this book,

00:37:53.720 which is an idea I'd had for a long time of doing it. And then finally, two years ago,

00:37:58.480 I just sort of said, okay, you know, it's not being done. Nobody else has kind of really come

00:38:02.080 forward. So I'm going to go do it. But even in the time I've wrote the book, when I started,

00:38:08.920 I was like, whoa, this tightrope is really narrow and the crocodiles below there look kind of scary.

00:38:14.700 And as I've gone through to the point of publication, people are saying, wow, this is really well timed.

00:38:20.460 We've got very mainstream figures on the right, like Tucker Carlson and Charlie Kirk, two of the endorsers of the book, or Matt Walsh, who used the term talk about anti-white racism pretty freely.

00:38:33.340 we even have Trump in remarks last week that didn't get a lot of attention, but I'll hopefully

00:38:39.560 be amplifying, talking. He used the term anti-white and said, hey, you know, that's not okay either.

00:38:45.440 So I think the kind of cultural zeitgeist, if you will, around these issues is changing. And

00:38:52.520 broadly, that's a good thing. So I think if we've got some people of goodwill, and again,

00:38:58.280 I've got a multi-ethnic kind of cast of endorsers of this book. If we can get them all together,

00:39:03.220 I think we can head off the worst.

00:39:06.520 On the other hand, and I kind of tend to agree with you that in the short term, it's going

00:39:10.620 to get worse before it gets better.

00:39:12.780 We're going to have to, there's no way to run away from the conflict.

00:39:15.840 That's why I wrote this book so directly.

00:39:17.760 We're going to have to meet force with force.

00:39:21.300 And I don't mean that in a physical sense, but in a kind of metaphysical sense.

00:39:26.560 I kind of, again, I use in the book the idea of mutually assured destruction, which is

00:39:32.360 a cult war analogy. So the Soviets weren't going to attack us because they knew they'd be

00:39:37.540 obliterated. So right now, the racial dynamic is the left just uses racism regularly. They attack

00:39:43.740 white people and they attack particularly white conservatives with racist things, et cetera, 0.94

00:39:49.220 et cetera. And we kind of tend to respond pretty limply or at best, we sort of put in gauzy rhetoric

00:39:57.480 about all people being created equal. 0.86

00:39:59.940 What we've got to convince them is white people

00:40:02.180 and people who are allied with equal justice of all races

00:40:06.760 need to make it very clear to the left

00:40:08.940 that when they engage in these type of tactics,

00:40:11.220 it's going to be very politically painful for them.

00:40:14.120 And I think that's when things stop and not a moment before.

00:40:19.020 Yeah, I think you're right.

00:40:20.780 Political will.

00:40:22.860 We saw that in real time.

00:40:25.380 We got a front row seat.

00:40:26.360 We watched it with COVID.

00:40:27.480 the science didn't change, the political science changed. America was done with the mask mandates

00:40:33.140 and the vaccine mandates. The moment that the American people, it had nothing to do with the

00:40:37.520 virus changing or going away. We were done the moment that the American people said, okay,

00:40:44.280 we've had enough. We're done. And then it was done. Just like that. Political will is a very

00:40:49.120 powerful thing. The problem is that the right, at least the recent right, I think neoconservative

00:40:55.400 right you know maybe not paleo conservatives once upon a time god bless them wish they were still

00:41:00.340 here but the neoconservative um doesn't have a lot of political will jeremy i don't know if you're

00:41:06.800 aware of that but uh conservatives i mean they do have a lot of motivation and energy to do one

00:41:13.880 thing and that is to uh to seize defeat out of the jaws of victory you know they're like let's

00:41:22.540 do it you know like the i i even with you know the the protest um about israel on you know

00:41:28.580 columbia and different you know ivy league colleges and you know universities um it's like

00:41:33.160 okay so there's the um there's the leftist uh lgbt purple haired you know uh 22 year old girl

00:41:40.920 for palestine right and then there's the marxist university that hates me and my posterity

00:41:46.700 right so there's here's the left and here's the left um you know it's like we finally got them

00:41:54.900 like they're getting themselves they're shooting themselves and the right's like not if i can help

00:41:58.940 it let us step in and save our enemy like i'm like what is going on i just i don't get it

00:42:04.620 i couldn't agree with you more i mean both with the specific example that you just cited

00:42:09.380 where i you know i'm in that meme you'll sometimes see on the internet of let them fight you know

00:42:14.100 We don't need to get involved in this at all. And it's to my great frustration that we are. I'm also just frustrated, of course, with the spinelessness and weakness of our elected leadership to begin with, with obviously some honorable exceptions.

00:42:31.920 Folks who are familiar with Claremont know that we have really been on the leading edge of the fighting. Of all those think tanks that would be anywhere near respectability in the country, I think we are unquestionably the most hard-edged and willing to kind of engage in those fights.

00:42:50.560 And I'll give you a trivial example from COVID, which you just cited when suddenly people decided that it was enough and it changed.

00:42:59.800 A judge, you know, the airlines just kept doing those mask mandates forever.

00:43:05.080 And a young federal judge who'd been trained in Claremont's programs, who's 34, I think she's the youngest woman on the federal bench, kind of said, no, you know what?

00:43:14.180 Like she gave a long constitutional ruling, very smart.

00:43:16.820 I think she was like a Yale law grad or something. But this is not constitutional. Mask mandates are over. And as soon as that ruling came down, all of a sudden, everybody kind of did the right thing, which they kind of wanted to do anyway.

00:43:30.280 Which I think also points out the importance of political leadership, because that one thing in that area just flipped things. And every airline got rid of their mask mandate. So that's the sort of leadership that we need.

00:43:42.340 I agree. So we need political will. We need leadership. We need courage. Um, what you're

00:43:47.320 describing is, you know, leaders stepping out on the front lines and then, um, often, not always,

00:43:53.340 sometimes, you know, you stand up alone, right? Sometimes you're Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

00:43:57.220 It's like, you stand up and like, all right, everyone stand up with us, you know? And no,

00:44:01.600 it's just, it's just the three of you. And, um, and maybe God saves you and maybe he doesn't.

00:44:06.180 Um, but, but often, or at least, you know, at least a decent, uh, amount of the time

00:44:13.380 you stand up and you find out there's a bunch of other people who are thinking the same

00:44:16.800 things.

00:44:17.220 They just didn't have the courage to say it out loud.

00:44:19.720 So, so there really is that, uh, but there's, I think one other piece in terms of winning

00:44:24.460 cultural battles.

00:44:25.960 Um, there's a lot of players, you know, I think of like a chess board, you know, and,

00:44:30.680 you know, the, you know, Kings would play chess, you know, and I think of it as military

00:44:34.760 strategy and honing their senses and those kinds of things, getting the lay of the land.

00:44:39.780 There are different pieces on the board.

00:44:42.420 There are leaders, there are pawns, but there are also pieces that, that don't, they, they

00:44:51.700 don't, they're not necessarily the leaders.

00:44:53.420 They're a leader of sorts maybe, but they're not necessarily the primary leaders, the generals

00:44:58.280 and, you know, of the army, but they, but they're the ones who are getting out there

00:45:03.800 and, you know, taking a ton of fire, you know, that allows, you know, a whole platoon over here

00:45:09.500 to go and gain cover and strategically position themselves. They're the people who are maybe a

00:45:14.680 little bit outside the Overton window who are pulling it while there are other guys inside,

00:45:19.440 you know, who are pushing. And I think we've seen a lot of that since 2020, that we've seen

00:45:26.320 a lot of guys who are a little bit further out there. It's like, okay, that guy is to my right.

00:45:32.580 um yeah but one of the things you know two things what one i think the right often hurts itself

00:45:39.200 uh by not having the political will or not just letting their enemies fight you know or you know

00:45:43.760 like we already said grasping defeat from the you know the jaws of victory but another way is um

00:45:49.540 i think the left has a better understanding of uh strategy when it comes to using their radicals

00:45:57.260 the left i think um is able to use their radicals and i don't think it's just because you know if

00:46:04.000 the left didn't have double standards they'd have no standard at all or because they have no virtues

00:46:08.000 or they have no principles no they do it's just it's it's just in the opposite direction everything

00:46:12.600 they're doing is in their in their mind it is virtuous they they have convictions they have an

00:46:18.260 ideology they have virtue they have all these things but they also i think have more determination

00:46:24.540 They are willing to, they want to win. 0.78

00:46:29.220 And I think the right sometimes is just too committed to be beautiful losers. 0.86

00:46:34.100 You know what I mean? 0.94

00:46:34.480 Absolutely.

00:46:35.420 And Christians, evangelicals especially.

00:46:39.340 Like Trump, he wouldn't be an elder in my church.

00:46:42.900 I'm not even sure if he'd be able to pass a membership interview.

00:46:46.120 But he will have my vote.

00:46:48.300 And I make no, and not even with my nose plugged.

00:46:52.080 I will vote for Trump and I'll sleep really well that night and be just fine.

00:46:57.280 With a clear conscience before the Lord, knowing that I don't idolize Trump, I don't worship Trump.

00:47:02.420 I'm not even sure if he's a brother in Christ.

00:47:04.080 I hope he is, you know, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

00:47:08.940 But I think that the people on the right, and especially Christians on the right, are unable to think, they're unable to categorize.

00:47:19.860 they they struggle with political theology versus soteriology you know or something you know and

00:47:28.460 it's and it's just and that the outcome is just beautiful losers it's it's uh going down with the

00:47:35.820 ship you know while standing in a salute you know and just uh face of flint and and um i i what do

00:47:44.040 you think about using you know i you know so the concept no enemies on the right maybe not to the

00:47:48.780 but on the right. And I think of the things that I can say today, if I had said these things in

00:47:56.080 2017, it's over. I would have been, and the point that you made, when you started the book two years

00:48:04.000 ago, you were pretty nervous. When it came closer to publication, you're like, hey, this might land

00:48:09.900 okay. And then it landed better than okay, it sounds like. I mean, sure, you'll get pushed

00:48:15.460 back but but there's been a a large positive reception and so things have been moved but part

00:48:21.380 of the reason they've been moving is because of your strategic radicals uh the left has them

00:48:28.160 the right has them you don't have to agree with them so i'm not saying somebody says something

00:48:32.160 and you you have to retweet them and say yeah you know somebody says uh adolf hitler's the was the

00:48:37.280 last christian prince yeah i agree you don't have to do that um right but the right we man i just

00:48:44.100 i feel like we shoot our own yeah far more than the left what any thoughts on that that no enemies

00:48:50.680 on the right kind of political strategy and idea no i absolutely agree and you cited the phrase

00:48:57.020 beautiful losers a couple times and perhaps not coincidentally it's a title of a book of essays

00:49:00.960 by sam francis who was a really powerful conservative political theorist who had a 0.90

00:49:06.020 lot of stuff that was outside the overton window not even all of which i agreed with but um you

00:49:11.240 know, a person who 30 years ago in that book really kind of diagnosed a lot of the problems

00:49:16.660 that conservatives had, their lack of fighting spirit, their kind of fixation on essentially 0.92

00:49:22.400 being beautiful losers. And the subtitle of that was Essays on the Failure of American 0.68

00:49:27.160 Conservatism. So to write that book in 1992, and unbelievably kind of published by a mainstream

00:49:31.920 university press at the time that he wrote it, was indicative that the right has had this problem

00:49:37.280 for quite a while. And I think absolutely, your point is well taken on radicals. And it's one of

00:49:44.020 the reasons why it was so important. And I said so at the time I was even quoted in major news

00:49:49.500 outlets of the importance of Elon taking over Twitter, because what it allowed to do is a lot

00:49:54.580 of these voices that are well to my right. I mean, I'm like, you know, actually, like,

00:49:59.380 like what I'm asking for is very mainstream here, you know, like, I'm not asking for

00:50:03.660 thousand-year American Reich or something really weird, right? I'm just saying, hey,

00:50:07.640 we should all be treated equally. But what it actually shows when you have those voices back

00:50:14.160 in the debate as opposed to being taken off the playing field as all the other social media sites

00:50:18.920 had done and Twitter had done before Elon bought it, is I can say, hey, look, there are these

00:50:24.000 crazies to the right of me. And I'm not kidding. I mean, of course, a lot of them really are kind

00:50:27.560 of crazy. But the left can see, oh, actually, those people actually have a lot of following.

00:50:32.700 Maybe this Jeremy guy, he actually isn't so crazy after all. 0.51

00:50:37.340 Maybe we could do business with him because it's a lot more preferable to compromise with somebody who's saying what he is than trying to compromise with the totally crazy nutcase over there on the far right.

00:50:49.840 And I'm not, of course, saying that everybody to the right of me falls into that description.

00:50:53.480 There's a lot of good friends of mine who are probably maybe not that many to the right.

00:50:57.640 I'm pretty conservative.

00:50:58.440 But there's certainly a lot of people out there who certainly have much more radical political prescriptions than I have.

00:51:06.640 And just even making them visible on X slash Twitter has been enormously helpful.

00:51:14.200 And again, we just need to get much smarter.

00:51:15.760 We need to get much tougher.

00:51:17.320 I kind of echo all your comments about Trump.

00:51:19.540 And again, it's sort of like Trump loves winning and he hates losing.

00:51:23.620 And for whatever his moral shortcomings, that matters a lot because the right needs a lot more of that mentality rather than the beautiful loser mentality.

00:51:34.100 Right. Okay. Well, here we are at the end. Any final thoughts for the listener?

00:51:39.260 No. I mean, I just thank you for having me on. Again, the name of the book is The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

00:51:47.200 you can find me on x slash twitter at real jeremy carl you can find me on substack i have a substack

00:51:53.500 called the course of empire and i guess i'd kind of make the pitch um to to your listeners um the

00:52:00.560 book has gotten a great reception the the sales have been better than i could have possibly hoped

00:52:05.180 for so that's been really gratifying um but uh even if i i hope that you've been uh folks have

00:52:12.140 been really swayed by my arguments but even if you're like well i don't know about this element

00:52:15.540 of what he said. If you buy a book like this, you don't make me rich, unfortunately, if you know

00:52:20.760 anything about the publishing business. It's pretty marginal for my net worth. But it does

00:52:24.860 send a signal to publishers that, wow, there's a market for people who are interested in this.

00:52:30.380 We should have more books like this. And so that way, people like me are not alone out on an

00:52:35.240 island, but we've got more people making these cases in different and hopefully even better

00:52:39.740 ways you know in the future and so these discussions become much more a part of the

00:52:44.500 mainstream and and much less something where i'm having to move the overton window so that's what

00:52:49.880 i'm trying to do and i appreciate being able to to talk to you about that absolutely well it was

00:52:54.600 yeah we appreciate it's an honor to have you on the show um in in that vein of strategy um and

00:53:01.280 signaling to publishers uh that hey the public wants more of this where would be the best place

00:53:07.120 for them to get your book and to leave a review amazon or amazon is always best although i would

00:53:12.940 say that um if you can leave certainly to buy because i think that's where most people are

00:53:17.760 buying and and um then if if more people are buying it more random people just sort of see

00:53:23.220 it on the algorithm right um so that's that's good but also certainly especially for reviews

00:53:28.420 i've already got um a significant number of five star average amazon reviews so if you if you read

00:53:34.720 the book and like it and want to go on barnesandnoble.com or thrift books or whatever,

00:53:38.840 that's fantastic. And certainly if you buy on those platforms, that's also fantastic. Or

00:53:43.500 your local bookstore. And I think because of the early sales being so good, more and more local

00:53:47.940 bookstores will probably be carrying this. So buy it wherever you like, as long as you buy it. I

00:53:53.520 promise it's not going to add more than a few dollars, sadly, to my net worth, but it does get

00:53:58.520 the issue out there. And that's really why I wrote it. Great. Well, thank you, Jeremy. Keep it up.

00:54:02.560 the good work we appreciate it thanks so much for having me on

The NXR Podcast - May 27, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - It’s Okay To Be White with Jeremy Carl

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