The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - No Such Thing As Female Angels!？ with Tim Chaffey - ICYMI

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00:00:41.900 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:44.820 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin, here with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:47.940 This is our fourth and final episode with Dr. Tim Chafee coming back onto the show

00:00:53.440 to finish our four-part series on the Nephilim, the Watchers. Well, I guess I should start in

00:00:59.340 order. The Watchers, Fallen Angels, the Nephilim, and the Giants. And today is kind of like a free

00:01:04.520 safety catch-all where we're kind of just dotting I's and crossing T's and finishing up all the

00:01:11.180 looming hangover questions that you guys have had, the most commonly asked questions from the

00:01:16.840 previous three episodes that we've already done. And just to give you a little bit of a sample of

00:01:20.880 tasting, we're going to talk about is there really such a thing as female angels? We kind of have a 1.00

00:01:26.140 sneaking suspicion they might all be men. I know that sounds crazy. Hear us out. We've got some

00:01:30.220 arguments. So are there female angels or are they all male angels? And then male angels, are they

00:01:36.500 physical, body and spirit, or just spirit? How could they procreate with human female women? 0.97

00:01:43.300 How does that work? And then we talk about, in addition to all that, how big were giants 0.99

00:01:50.140 actually? What kind of size did they get to? I think it's fascinating. It's some of the most

00:01:55.640 fascinating, but also really practical questions, handling some of the most frequent, not only

00:02:01.140 questions, but objections to this idea that fallen angels that rebelled against God could actually

00:02:06.040 procreate with human women. A lot of people just think that that's fantastical. I think that's

00:02:10.220 what the Word of God teaches. So does Dr. Tim Chafee. And I think that between the two of us,

00:02:14.920 we make a very compelling argument. So tune in now.

00:02:18.660 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:02:29.680 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel

00:02:33.520 Webin with Right Response Ministries. Today, I am joined for the fourth and final time with Dr.

00:02:38.920 Tim Chafee. We've been doing a mini series, a four-part series. And so if you haven't seen

00:02:43.300 the first three parts, I encourage you to feel free to watch this video. But if you have any

00:02:47.060 looming questions, you know, well, they didn't really make a thorough argument because they

00:02:50.580 didn't answer this objection and they didn't handle this, you know, nuance or whatever.

00:02:54.700 It's very likely that we actually did address it in one of the previous parts. So I encourage you

00:02:59.700 to go back and check out the first three episodes. But you don't have to do that preemptively. You're

00:03:04.300 welcome to stay and just watch this and work your way backwards or forwards, whatever you want to

00:03:08.240 do. But this is the fourth and final episode dealing with the Nephilim. We're dealing with

00:03:12.880 fallen angels. We're dealing with the Nephilim. And we're also dealing with their, you know, 1.00

00:03:18.120 down generations giants. And so that's what we've been dealing with. And today we really want to

00:03:22.080 focus in on some of the questions that you guys have left for us in the comments and the things

00:03:28.580 that seem to be the most inquisitive questions, but also the most popular common questions,

00:03:34.820 right working with you know faqs you know trying to deal with the most frequently asked questions

00:03:39.900 how can we address all those so this is kind of a final summary video where we dot some i's cross

00:03:45.100 some t's and without further ado let's go ahead and get started tim chafee thank you for coming

00:03:50.140 on the show again hey joel it's great to be with you again thanks for having me it's been a lot of

00:03:54.520 fun so far and i'm looking forward to this one as well all right well let's go ahead and do this you

00:03:58.920 said that it might be helpful to give obviously we don't want to i mean people can go back and

00:04:03.120 watch the video. So we want to keep it brief, but it might be helpful for people just to get a

00:04:06.600 little bit of a refresher. So why don't you take care of that job and recap a little bit of what

00:04:12.320 we've covered thus far? Yeah. Okay. So some of the objections we get, let me, let me just give

00:04:16.320 you like a rapid fire type of thing. We, a lot of times I hear people say, well, Jesus said angels

00:04:22.160 can't do that. And they'll point to Matthew 22, 30. Just very quickly, we've covered that in two

00:04:26.880 other episodes. So no, Jesus didn't say they cannot do that. He said the ones in who are still

00:04:30.880 in heaven don't do that so he never said about what the ones who left heaven and are rebelling

00:04:36.040 what they can or can't do um some people say well this whole issue that you're talking about the

00:04:40.780 fallen angel view that's all based on the book of enoch uh it's not true uh there's much in this

00:04:45.500 much about in the bible in the book of enoch is just representing a an interpretation that was

00:04:50.080 had that people had during the intertestamental period so it aligns with this but it's not based

00:04:54.720 on the book of enoch uh some people think that the spies were lying in numbers 13 and saying that

00:05:00.300 the Nephilim were in the land. But we have to remember that the narrator, Moses himself,

00:05:05.280 tells us earlier in the chapter that the spies actually saw the Anakim there and the Anakim

00:05:10.360 are of the Nephilim. So there were giants in the land. Some people wonder how it's possible that

00:05:15.880 people like you and me could think that God would ever allow something so wretched, so perverse.

00:05:21.000 And all we have to do is look around our culture, our world today. God permits or allows abortion.

00:05:25.640 He allows murder. He allows rape. He allows all sorts of evil things. Just because that stuff exists, it doesn't mean we get to deny the reality of it. We don't have to be comfortable. We don't have to like it, but it occurs. 0.99

00:05:38.700 So those are just some of the objections that I hear, or the Bible would never call this marriage between the fallen angels and human women because that's not what biblical marriage is.

00:05:49.400 Well, Solomon had a thousand wives, princes, and concubines, and that's not ideal either.

00:05:55.820 If you think about worship in the Bible, you have true worship, and you also have false worship. 0.56

00:06:00.460 You have the worship of pagan gods, of idols and everything, and you have the true worship of the one true God.

00:06:07.220 So the same word is used in both cases.

00:06:09.900 It's just one is what is ideal and what is right versus what is a distortion of that.

00:06:16.000 Great. Okay, so then let's start there.

00:06:19.120 with the angels, you know, specifically what you were talking about, you said, Jesus didn't say

00:06:24.180 they can't do that to, you know, just to explicitly spell out the, that he says, you know, that angels

00:06:29.940 do not marry in heaven. You know, that when we go to heaven, you know, cause it's, it's one of

00:06:36.340 those gotcha moments with the religious rulers of the day within, within Judaism, they're, you know, 0.97

00:06:40.980 trying to, to, you know, to trick Jesus. And so they say, you know, Jesus, if there was this 0.92

00:06:46.800 hypothetical situation with a woman who had seven husbands, right? And, you know, the first husband

00:06:50.840 dies, she marries again. The second, you know, not simultaneously, but one's in sequence after

00:06:55.080 another. The husbands keep dying. She keeps remarrying. And then, you know, eventually has

00:06:59.980 a total of seven husbands. Which husband will she be married to in the resurrection? And Jesus 0.91

00:07:03.960 responds and says, you know, in the resurrection, you know, in heaven, we will be as the angels are

00:07:08.900 who don't marry. And so to use that and say, well, there you have it. Case closed. Out of the mouth

00:07:14.080 of Christ himself, angels cannot procreate. Well, wait a second, you just eisegeted, you just read

00:07:19.080 into the text by that word cannot, speaking of ability, rather than what Jesus says they do not

00:07:24.620 do, speaking of, that's not a prescriptive, that's a descriptive language of this is how it is,

00:07:32.060 but that's not speaking in terms of possibility, ability. And so angels in heaven don't marry.

00:07:37.940 rebellious angels who leave heaven, Jesus says nothing about what they can do. And so that's

00:07:45.040 what's in reference there. But I think that it's interesting. We've explored a little bit of this

00:07:49.720 in our previous episode, the most recent episode, I think part three, but I think it's worth

00:07:54.300 exploring again. I am of the persuasion. I think you are, neither of us are definitive, but I think

00:07:59.880 we both lean in this direction. I'm of the persuasion that one of the reasons angels don't

00:08:04.600 Mary in heaven is that it's not God's design. It's not his will, but also it is an impossibility

00:08:11.640 because I truly am, again, not a hundred percent sure, but leaning heavily towards

00:08:18.100 the possibility that angels are exclusively male. You want to talk about that? What do you think

00:08:23.940 about that? Yeah, we did cover that a bit in one of the other episodes as well. There's no

00:08:30.380 indication anywhere in scripture at least no clear indication anywhere in scripture that

00:08:34.700 um angels could be described as feminine um we there is the one verse that you you and i talked

00:08:40.760 about in zechariah 5 where it's a vision of these two storks and they're in the feminine but whether

00:08:45.880 or not that and some people think that they're demons or at least evil spirits uh you know

00:08:50.280 fallen angels but again it's a vision how much do we read into that and um are they really

00:08:57.640 representing two individuals um spirits or are they also are they representing maybe nations or

00:09:04.300 some other corporate entities groups like like the two witnesses in revelation that could be two

00:09:09.380 individual people but it also could those two you know lots of faithful biblical scholars have

00:09:14.300 have defined that as a representative of two churches corporate groups of of people and so

00:09:20.240 to use a vision uh that's just not the strong but when we have a narrative historical narrative like

00:09:26.000 gabriel you know speaking to mary or uh three angels one of them being the angel of the lord

00:09:31.500 uh himself but then accompanied with two other angels meeting with abraham and in all these

00:09:36.000 instances not visions but actual um physical um appearances of angels as as uh historical

00:09:42.520 narrative in the script they're exclusively man yeah that's right you do have the one

00:09:46.380 verse in hebrews 13 that talks about how we're supposed to be hospitable to strangers because

00:09:51.100 some people have entertained angels unaware again it doesn't say therefore someday there's

00:09:55.600 going to be a female who shows up at your door and you should, you know, welcome her because

00:09:58.780 it's really a female angel. It doesn't say that it would be within the realm of possibility just

00:10:03.540 from the textual standpoint, but it is not proof at all that there are female angels. Um, I would

00:10:09.880 agree with you whenever we do see angels in scripture, whenever they are, whenever their

00:10:13.960 gender is referenced at all, it's always male, um, masculine. So my, yeah, so thank you. So,

00:10:20.040 so further fleshing that out, my position, um, and I think you and I are, are pretty linked up

00:10:24.800 on this. I'm sure there'd be some differences, but, um, my, my position is that, um, so now

00:10:29.640 taking that, so we we've established that I know is, I know it's not a, you know, hands down

00:10:33.720 definitive case, but we've, we've made a plausible argument for angels being male. Um, and so it's,

00:10:38.980 it's a two part, two prong argument. Angels don't marry in heaven one, because there's only dude

00:10:43.260 angels in heaven, you know, and not chick angels in heaven. Uh, but then two, because it's also 0.99

00:10:47.780 not God's design and will. So it's, uh, these aren't the angels that are in heaven are not

00:10:51.380 rebellious angels. They're submitted to the lordship and authority of God as the supreme

00:10:56.560 being, but also they're male, who would they marry? But on earth, one, you have females, 0.93

00:11:02.920 not female angels, but you do have female human beings. And then two, these are rebellious angels 0.68

00:11:08.760 who are no longer submitted to God's will. Now the question is, okay, so if angels are male,

00:11:14.280 Um, the next thing is though, like, but, but how does, how does one male species, um, mate with a

00:11:21.900 another female species? And, and so what I would add, uh, now dealing with, with that objection

00:11:27.360 is, um, I think of David in the Psalms, which is, uh, finds its ultimate highest fulfillment,

00:11:32.740 um, as the author of Hebrews spells out for us, uh, it has a messianic, uh, fulfillment in Christ.

00:11:38.660 So that the ultimate interpretation with David's, what I'm about to quote of David in the Psalms

00:11:42.740 is that Christ ultimately fulfills it.

00:11:45.600 But David is also,

00:11:47.120 I think it also is a faithful interpretation

00:11:48.980 of David means it as it pertains to not just Christ,

00:11:53.160 but as it pertains to humanity in general as a whole.

00:11:56.380 And what David says is,

00:11:57.800 who is man that you are mindful of him

00:12:00.720 or the son of man that you should care for him?

00:12:03.460 He's talking about the compassion of God

00:12:05.120 towards all things considered a puny,

00:12:08.480 tiny little creature, namely you and I.

00:12:11.580 But this infinite God who created all things is so compassionate and kind that he loves man, even man, us.

00:12:22.040 And he says, who is man that you are mindful of him or the son of man that you should show compassion to him?

00:12:27.640 You made him just a little lower than the angels.

00:12:32.040 And I understand that this is a fairly literal hermeneutic that I'm about to apply here, but a lot of text should be interpreted literally.

00:12:39.460 And I take that to mean that a male angel and a female human being would not be likened to a male elephant and a female frog trying to mate.

00:12:56.220 I take it much more like a little lower.

00:12:58.840 If man is made just a little lower, and I know that you hold the view that angels like man have likewise been created in the image of God.

00:13:05.280 So both are image-bearing creatures, and one is only a little lower than the other.

00:13:09.980 I take it as like two different species separate, but within the canine larger family, like

00:13:16.780 a Great Dane and a German Shepherd, angel, male, female, human being, and that they

00:13:25.020 very absolutely could procreate.

00:13:28.400 And that brings up another thing, just briefly, that I think a lot of times Christians have

00:13:33.480 a, we over-spiritualize, I think a lot of times, especially modern evangelicals. I think some of

00:13:40.280 it's Gnostic. I'm not saying this interpretation is hard Gnosticism, you know, that it's heretical

00:13:44.560 or anything like that. But in general, I think that we have modern Christians having Gnostic 0.65

00:13:49.320 bent, Gnostic bent and over-spiritualizing bad habit. Angels, as far as we know, they're not

00:13:57.300 omnipresent like God. God is the most pure spirit without body parts and passions. He's not confined

00:14:01.920 to a physical location, a physical body.

00:14:05.280 Christ, the second member of the Godhead,

00:14:07.080 second member of the Trinity,

00:14:08.020 he is the God-man, divine, fully God and fully man.

00:14:11.260 And so he does have a body

00:14:12.720 and he's seated on a throne physically in heaven

00:14:15.420 at the right hand of the Father.

00:14:17.620 But the Father and Christ before the incarnation

00:14:20.040 and the Spirit are most pure spirits

00:14:23.300 without body parts and passions and infinite.

00:14:25.580 But every creature that God made,

00:14:27.220 both heavenly and earthly creatures,

00:14:29.520 angels, I don't think there's any reason to think that angels are pure spirit in heaven. And then

00:14:36.660 whenever there's an angelic appearance on earth, it's actually just a purely spiritual entity

00:14:43.680 without a body projecting a hologram or an apparition that looks physical. I don't think

00:14:49.400 that's it. I think it's a physical being, just like human beings. We have both spirit and body,

00:14:54.000 spirit and body i think angels likewise are spirit and body a spirit with a physical locale

00:14:59.600 of of the body and when they come to earth they're coming in in in both spirit and body they

00:15:05.180 actually are appearing in flesh um in their body and and you know uh golly gee what does that body

00:15:12.420 look like um a lot like ours to the point where even you know the inhabitants of sodom you know

00:15:18.240 could notice hey there's something different about them like so in their lust and perversion

00:15:22.820 they were desirable, these angels, but they also weren't sitting there and saying, what's this

00:15:27.460 crazy monster in town that looks nothing like a human being at all? It was like, no, they stand

00:15:33.520 out, but also they look like people, enough to where we desire them lustfully and in a perverse

00:15:41.360 way. And same with the three angels, one being the angel of the Lord, eat with Abraham. So I see

00:15:49.360 angels is one, I think male, and then two, physical beings, not that unlike human beings

00:15:58.300 to where they're physical, they're male, they don't mate in heaven because it's not God's will. 0.97

00:16:05.060 And there's not female angels, but there are female women. And the gap between human beings

00:16:10.300 and angels is not that big. And these are also angels who, if they come to earth, the ones that

00:16:15.180 were fallen. They're rebellious, so they're not submitted to God's will. It's not a crazy

00:16:19.560 position. Anything you think on that? Yeah, I would largely agree with that.

00:16:26.700 I have a friend who, he argues that Jesus spoke against the fallen angel view in this way. In

00:16:33.620 fact, he went so far as saying, if the fallen angel's view is true, we can't be saved because

00:16:39.020 Jesus would have lied, and then Jesus can't be our Savior. Well, where does he say that,

00:16:43.100 anything like this well uh once jesus rises from the dead and he appears to the disciples

00:16:47.580 and uh this he says handle me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see

00:16:52.700 that i have and so they look at that and they say see jesus said spirits don't have flesh and bones

00:16:57.480 so how can you how can you argue this well first of all that word spirit is just the greek word

00:17:02.540 pneuma which means lots of different things translated as our breath or as the wind or as

00:17:07.900 The Holy Spirit is also used that term.

00:17:13.480 So spirits, it could be referring to angelic beings.

00:17:17.960 It could be a ghost that he's talking about.

00:17:19.500 And that actually seems to be what he's talking about because other translations actually say that.

00:17:26.700 Like the Net Bible, touch me and see a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

00:17:30.920 And so he's not saying, I'm not an angel.

00:17:33.640 They didn't think that he was an angel.

00:17:35.300 That's not the point.

00:17:36.360 And so people who make way too much out of that one use of the word, when there's such a broad range, syntactical range of what that word can mean, I think you have to look at the rest of the context of Scripture.

00:17:52.020 And in this case, when angels appear, they have human form. They can look human enough for the sinful men at Sodom to lust after them.

00:18:06.360 and want to molest them um they can eat and drink with abraham just before that 0.62

00:18:11.120 and they can pull a lot by the hand out of the out of the city uh so they can do all sorts of

00:18:16.080 physical human activity and to me i i think you're right i think they are uh since i believe that

00:18:24.680 they are also made in god's image then we are in a in a sense that they're they're not so different

00:18:31.860 than us. And even though they may not have the same exact flesh and blood while they're in

00:18:39.120 eternity, you know, not in eternity, but while they're in heaven now. But I think if you think

00:18:42.860 about eternity, this is one area, Joel, you and I, I think would agree on this where maybe our

00:18:48.180 amillennial brothers would not, but I'm not quite sure where some of them would go on this, but in

00:18:53.020 the eternal state. So we have new glorified, not new, we have glorified bodies. This body gets

00:19:00.280 glorified the one that goes into the grave is the one that comes out of the grave but it's glorified

00:19:03.380 it's transformed paul talks about in first penthouse 15 and we're going to inhabit a new

00:19:08.260 heavens and a new earth the new jerusalem is described in revelation 21 22 um it's going to

00:19:14.120 be a physical reality for all eternity it's not floating on the clouds playing harps it's not

00:19:20.020 a bodiless existence we are meant to have a body and we're going to have a physical body for all

00:19:26.020 eternity again glorified we're not going to get sore and you know like we do now and achy joints

00:19:31.620 or anything right um and angels will be there and i don't think that they're just going to be

00:19:37.540 floating around ethereal spirits i think that they're going to actually have bodies as well

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00:22:55.140 Right, which is not that crazy to think,

00:22:56.920 especially when you think of Jesus.

00:23:00.820 So since the resurrection

00:23:02.860 and more specifically the ascension,

00:23:06.460 Notice this, like, so Jesus in his glorified state

00:23:10.040 after the resurrection, he was able, right?

00:23:13.680 Because this is important.

00:23:14.780 So it's like, well, Jesus isn't the only resurrected being.

00:23:17.500 No, he is actually, currently.

00:23:20.060 We're all going to be resurrected on the final day.

00:23:22.560 But Lazarus was not resurrected.

00:23:24.820 The better word technically would be

00:23:26.520 he was revitalized, resuscitated.

00:23:30.060 But when his body came back, and it's sad,

00:23:33.340 you know, but his body did not come back for good. His body came back to die twice and Lazarus had

00:23:38.860 to die twice, you know? And so, you know, he did not come back with a glorified body. He came back

00:23:44.460 with the same body in the same state, but just resuscitated, revived, but not resurrected in

00:23:51.620 terms of glorified. But Jesus- Which is why Jesus can be called the firstfruits from among the dead.

00:23:57.280 Exactly. Otherwise Lazarus, you know, or even before him. Exactly. So Jesus, the firstfruits

00:24:03.120 of being resurrected, glorified body from the dead, same body that he walked on, uh, on earth

00:24:09.980 in, uh, for, you know, approximately, you know, 33 plus years until, until he was crucified,

00:24:15.060 same body, but made new, not a new body, meaning another body, same body, but made new in a new

00:24:21.160 state, a higher state. And, uh, but here's the thing, uh, he wasn't just resurrected. And then,

00:24:25.660 and then for the last 2000 years, he's hiding out, uh, somewhere alive on earth. Uh, he was

00:24:30.900 resurrected and then he ascended. And in his glorified state, he was able, we know he was

00:24:36.200 able to vanish, walk through a door as he, you know, appearing to the disciples, the door was

00:24:42.520 locked. He walks into the room. So he's able to appear and vanish. And we don't know exactly how

00:24:46.680 that works in his glorified body state. But in the ascension, he doesn't just disappear after giving

00:24:54.220 his final words to his disciples. He physically ascends, levitates, goes up into the sky and only

00:25:01.280 disappears because the text explicitly says he was then hidden behind the clouds. And what I'm

00:25:06.620 trying to argue to, this is my point, is that Jesus, the God-man in flesh, still in flesh these

00:25:15.540 past 2,000 years, he went somewhere. And if he is physical, he has a physical body now, he's not

00:25:23.220 merely physical, but he does have a physical body forevermore, then that physical body can only

00:25:28.340 exist logically in a physical place. So he didn't go to the 17th dimension that is solely a spiritual

00:25:35.840 plane. Wherever heaven is, not even just the new heavens on the new earth that is yet to come,

00:25:42.680 but even heaven now has some, it must have some physical element in the sense that Jesus has a

00:25:49.100 physical body. He's seated, a physical body can only be seated on a physical throne. And so the

00:25:54.760 idea that there are physical, other physical creatures, namely angels in this place that is

00:26:00.520 spiritual, but also has a physical element to encompass, to be the conducive context for

00:26:05.700 physical beings, none of this is crazy. And I think the fact that what we know, a lot of it

00:26:10.740 seems like speculation, but if we argue from what's definitive, we know that Jesus right now

00:26:14.600 has a physical body and he's somewhere and that somewhere is heaven and so we know heaven has to

00:26:20.240 have even heaven now before the new heavens and the new earth heaven as it currently is has some

00:26:25.720 physical element to it to where our physical resurrected lord is able to be there and and

00:26:31.720 and that makes room in my mind for physical angels being there um what do you think about that

00:26:38.620 argument no i think that's great and i i look at um first corinthians 15 and uh beginning around

00:26:44.760 42 43 it talks about how there's the the body is so many natural body it's raised a spiritual body

00:26:50.460 and people look at that and they think oh this is a so you're so it is spiritual no no it's a

00:26:56.140 body that is dominated by the spirit rather than a body that's dominated by the flesh um it's so

00:27:02.140 even if you look into the greek on that that is that bears that out and i've got that in the book

00:27:06.620 But then he goes on. He says the first man is from earth made of dust. The second man is from heaven. And we're going to be like the one from heaven. We're going to be like Jesus was when we are glorified, when we are transformed. And as he just said, he had a physical body that was different than what it was before. He could not die again.

00:27:26.060 um it's he seemed to have had super certain abilities that are not normal like he said he

00:27:32.740 whether he walked through a door or not i'm not sure exactly how he got there but somehow he

00:27:37.240 appeared in their midst when the door was locked so whether he just walks right through it or

00:27:40.520 said i'm going to teleport right there i'm not sure right yeah yeah i don't know but um that's

00:27:46.560 different than what we can do yeah yes he's god but he wasn't doing those things prior to that

00:27:52.480 Right. Right. Yeah. Great point. So what we've been arguing so far, and we'll move on to another

00:27:58.160 topic, but there's one more piece on this subject that I'd love to address. But what we're arguing

00:28:03.100 so far is that we think, this one we probably feel a little bit less strongly about, but fairly

00:28:08.760 strong that angels were male. And then second point that we feel probably a little bit stronger

00:28:13.320 about is that angels certainly are spirit and physical. They have bodies. So we think they

00:28:17.940 they definitely have bodies and probably male bodies and perhaps exclusively male bodies and

00:28:24.980 that those angels as creatures created in the image of God like man are different but not so

00:28:30.440 different from us that male physical angels could not mate with female physical humans and they

00:28:38.680 don't do that in heaven but it doesn't mean that they can't do that especially if they're

00:28:43.540 rebelling against God's will on earth. So none of that is crazy. And to say that Jesus just

00:28:48.100 is the TKO knockout punch for the fallen angel view is just bad exegesis. The Sethite view might

00:28:55.420 be right, but not from that argument. That doesn't get you the Sethite view. You're going to have to

00:28:59.440 do better than that. And so the last thing that I want to say, though, I'm just thinking of one

00:29:03.860 more objection that our listeners might have. And I know it's a genuine question for me. Well,

00:29:08.660 what about other biblical texts that don't just talk about angels visiting? Because when there's

00:29:13.000 an angelic visitation on earth, they do appear human, like Gabriel with Mary. But what about

00:29:20.240 other biblical texts, like Revelation talking about four living creatures covered in eyes with

00:29:27.200 six wings and one the head of an ox and the head of a lion, or Ezekiel, like wheels? What would you

00:29:35.680 say about that? Yeah, I think what that shows us, other than maybe John and Ezekiel

00:29:42.440 struggled to describe what they were seeing because when you read ezekiel's interpretation

00:29:47.740 or explanation it's really hard to wrap my mind around what he is actually describing um but

00:29:54.760 yeah they're they're um i mean i understand the passage in terms of he's seeing god's throne and

00:30:01.860 these uh cherubim that are there they seem to be you know guardians of god's throne in some

00:30:07.520 sense and so i get that but in terms of how he's describing it it's strange but we have to

00:30:13.620 understand that that's not saying every single angelic being looks just like that uh we know

00:30:18.580 the ones in isaiah 6 they have six wings they cover their feet with two of them they cover

00:30:22.420 their eyes with two of them and they uh they fly with two of them and you know all day and night

00:30:28.720 they're proclaiming holy holy holy and um so they have they seem to have a unique role to play and

00:30:36.280 there are other angelic spirits that were or angelic beings that were given the task of

00:30:44.100 governing certain areas after especially at babel we see that in deuteronomy 32 8 and then that's

00:30:51.600 talked about elsewhere we covered that in one of the other episodes as well when we're talking about

00:30:55.280 the divine council so angels have different roles or different abilities there are different kinds

00:31:00.600 whether you're talking about seraphim and cherubim and perhaps the B'nai Elohim,

00:31:06.520 which is the sons of God that we've been talking about.

00:31:10.100 So we shouldn't just assume all angelic life is exactly like it,

00:31:15.420 just one type of thing, that God created diversity of life here on planet Earth.

00:31:22.740 And I think there's a diversity of life in heaven with him.

00:31:27.420 Good. Yeah, I agree.

00:31:28.520 so what one option is is it could be the ezekiel text or the revelation for you know text uh could

00:31:34.260 could be um one it could be a a you know more of a metaphorical uh metaphorical symbolic uh writing

00:31:44.200 and then number two even if it is literal that's that's entirely possible uh but even if it is

00:31:50.340 literal this is not a description of every type of angel in heaven um and and it seems like if

00:31:57.760 If anything, we don't know exactly, but if I had to guess, it seems like if it is literal, it would be a description of a minority type of angel in heaven.

00:32:07.240 Like there's four, not four million, but four living creatures covered in ice.

00:32:12.760 Like it's a unique and even higher in terms of, I believe that there's different types of angels and a hierarchy, you know, in heaven.

00:32:21.660 And so.

00:32:22.720 And Paul bears that out as well.

00:32:24.420 Now, maybe this is more with the evil spiritual force, but you have principalities and powers and thrones and dominions. These are spiritual forces, and there is ranking. Now, I don't know if we can have a completely fleshed out view of that, because I don't think the Bible gives us enough detail to do that, but to the point that we can say, yeah, there is some sort of hierarchy and difference in not just rank, but ability.

00:32:49.780 right um so yeah so it one uh explanation is ezekiel and revelation could be metaphorical

00:32:56.760 symbolical language the the second explanation is even if it is exactly literal literal a physical

00:33:01.960 description um then okay great then some angels look really weird but that doesn't mean all angels

00:33:08.380 look really weird and it seems if anything you could you could buy by uh maybe not explicit

00:33:14.400 argumentation but implicit you you could say that it seems like at least some angels if not the

00:33:18.820 majority of angels don't look weird. And those that God commissions to have earthly visitations,

00:33:27.200 they look a lot like us and we are made just a little lower than them. And they are physical

00:33:31.720 and they're not merely spiritual. They're spirit and body just as we're spirit and body, both made

00:33:35.340 in the image of God, looking very similar in many regards. And if they're in rebellion against God's

00:33:41.180 will because they've fallen to earth, then absolutely plausible that angels could procreate

00:33:47.800 with, um, with female human beings. That's, it's, uh, it, we could be wrong. We're not omniscient,

00:33:54.040 but, um, to say that that view is crazy, um, is, um, I just think you're, you know,

00:34:01.240 you can't back that up. You can, you can say you think it's wrong, but it is, I think it's

00:34:05.120 certainly a permissible, plausible, reasonable interpretation of scripture.

00:34:10.420 Yeah, I would agree. And if I can, um, just finish up one other point we were talking about a few

00:34:14.680 moments ago with the in this eternal state that we're going to have physical bodies in a physical

00:34:19.120 world that is so foreign to like the modern pop cultural view of of heaven of the eternal of our

00:34:28.620 afterlife um we so many people think that we're just going to become spirits and stand you know

00:34:34.980 sing songs 24 7 around the throne and you know for a lot of people that's disheartening because

00:34:40.020 it seems like that wouldn't that be really boring i don't know that this is really what i'm

00:34:44.600 looking forward to. And that doesn't sound exciting. Well, that's not what it's going to be.

00:34:48.960 It's so much more than that. And we're going to have, like I mentioned, physical bodies in a

00:34:55.360 physical world where there is no more curse, no more sorrow, no more tears. And we get to enjoy

00:35:00.140 that for eternity in God's presence. So it'll be far better than we can imagine. So I just,

00:35:07.160 I think it's important for people to think rightly about what our future holds and that

00:35:13.400 this topic plays right into that. But I guess another objection I hear to what we've been

00:35:18.600 talking about, and this will shift the gears a little bit, is, Joel, how dare we say that

00:35:23.280 angels can create life, right? And you've probably heard that. And well, if that's your objection,

00:35:31.680 good. I'm glad you're thinking that because we don't want to sit here and say, yes, angels are

00:35:35.140 just as powerful as God. That's not at all what we're saying. They are created beings.

00:35:38.480 um but look in the mirror and if you have children ask yourself this question did you create life

00:35:46.160 you procreated and that's what we're talking about here we're not talking about creating

00:35:52.240 life from scratch from nothing we're talking about procreation um but even before you go

00:35:57.720 too far down that road people say well but they had to create a body in order to be able to do

00:36:01.360 no remember we've already talked about how we think they have bodies but um look back at exodus

00:36:07.320 chapter 7, and this is the passage that everybody's familiar with, with Moses and Aaron coming before

00:36:12.240 Pharaoh, and Aaron throws down his rod, and it becomes a serpent. And then it says this, it says

00:36:17.580 that Pharaoh called his wise men and sorcerers, so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like

00:36:24.000 manner with their enchantments, or with their dark arts, through their occult abilities. Every man

00:36:29.860 threw down his rod, and they became serpents. They did the same thing that Aaron, that God did to 0.60

00:36:36.700 aaron's staff now i'm not saying that every single fallen angel or evil spirit can do the exact same

00:36:43.800 thing i'm not saying they can do that whenever they want but for for his purposes at this point

00:36:49.440 god allowed them to do that they had the ability to do that and of course we know what happened

00:36:53.920 aaron's rod swallowed theirs up showing that the god of israel yahweh is still more powerful than

00:36:59.640 them no matter how impressive that feat was right but but they transformed sticks rods into

00:37:07.640 serpents so i think we we have to be careful and you were i think you were talking about earlier

00:37:13.840 that we um almost like a gnostic view we it's it's weird we we over spiritualize and at the

00:37:23.300 same time under spiritualize yeah it's it's like christians today modern evangelicals especially i

00:37:29.220 I I've been thinking about this a lot lately lately I think on one hand we've adopted way

00:37:34.040 too much of Darwin uh so on one hand we're like we're um we're we've been disenchanted

00:37:40.000 since I think since the enlightenment which the enlightenment you know I think was really the

00:37:45.500 beginning of of the dark ages of secular humanism and then you know and the the dark so-called dark

00:37:51.100 ages I think actually weren't quite as dark as our modern historians try to make them out to be

00:37:56.380 when people actually still believed in God, or even if they weren't Christian, they believed in

00:38:00.580 God's pagans. G.K. Chesterton talks about, you know, paganism is, and C.S. Lewis says the same

00:38:06.140 thing. The step from paganism to Christianity is a smaller step than the step from Darwinian

00:38:12.220 secular humanism. You know, when the world has completely lost its enchantment and the world is

00:38:17.280 just material, you're just a raw materialist. So on the one hand, I think Christians have bought 1.00

00:38:21.680 that narrative of, you know, modern post-modernism and secular humanism that, um, on one hand we've

00:38:28.020 under spiritualized and we're materialist. The world is just stuff. On the other hand, uh, it's

00:38:33.140 weird. I don't know how we do it, but, uh, we simultaneously over spiritualize. So anything we

00:38:37.880 read in the Bible, um, we, we think it's fantastical and spiritual, but then we think

00:38:43.320 that we live in this world that's entirely material and, and physical. And, and so then

00:38:48.100 what we do is we just we we create this massive chasm between heaven and earth the the you know

00:38:54.200 what god does this here and and then what happens here and what happens here all can be explained by

00:38:59.440 uh newton and this and that you know and there's nothing supernatural at all and then over there

00:39:03.880 it's it's there's nothing physical at all it's all spiritual 17th dimension and and i think that's

00:39:09.020 the framework that that moderns uh westerners uh have even among christians that makes the

00:39:17.020 procreation between angels and women seemed preposterous um but the ancients didn't think

00:39:22.340 like that that's a fairly modern view you know that didn't happen until you know at a certain

00:39:28.180 point in church history not it didn't happen for what 400 years for 400 years nobody even thought

00:39:33.240 the sethite view wasn't it augustine that was the first augustine was the one who popularized it

00:39:38.300 you know and gotcha a couple generations before him there are a few people who held it but yeah

00:39:42.840 he popularized it and then that dominated from then on.

00:39:45.780 And then Calvin doesn't even have to make an argument.

00:39:48.140 He just says,

00:39:48.640 Oh,

00:39:49.320 that fallen angel view. 0.82

00:39:50.860 We all know that's silly, 0.80

00:39:51.960 which is very like, 0.62

00:39:53.040 that's a,

00:39:53.620 what I would call rare,

00:39:54.660 uh,

00:39:55.280 rare Calvin L,

00:39:56.540 uh,

00:39:57.020 lose.

00:39:58.000 Um,

00:39:58.540 because I like Calvin,

00:39:59.560 as you know,

00:40:00.180 uh,

00:40:00.980 you know,

00:40:01.260 and,

00:40:01.540 and he usually is a robust in his argumentation for any point that he ever

00:40:05.120 makes.

00:40:05.400 But that one,

00:40:06.580 um,

00:40:07.000 he doesn't make a few times where he just kind of either throws up his

00:40:09.400 hands or he just kind of mocks it because he doesn't like it.

00:40:12.560 But,

00:40:12.840 Yeah, usually he does do his best to exegete the text.

00:40:16.640 And so whether you agree or disagree, you can at least respect that part of it.

00:40:19.900 But yeah, in this one, he, yeah.

00:40:22.580 But another passage that I think is important to think about, and I think you and I would probably interpret who this is talking about differently or how, what's being referred to.

00:40:30.860 But in 2 Thessalonians 2, 9, it's talking about the lawless one.

00:40:34.240 You know, a lot of times, like dispensational, premillennial, pre-tribency, this is like the Antichrist.

00:40:38.720 But not even talking about that.

00:40:40.600 look what it says about this the lawless one whoever or whatever that might be the coming

00:40:46.000 of the lawless one is according to the working of satan with all power signs and lying wonder

00:40:51.360 so how much ability how much power does satan have or some of these evil

00:40:59.280 spiritual beings it says here all power signs and lying wonder and say fake power and fake signs

00:41:08.000 it's he's deceiving people with these real things is what it's describing so that they do have

00:41:14.880 tremendous ability and i think it's it's dangerous for us to underestimate them but at the same time

00:41:19.680 i think it's people overestimate them as well that you know like say they some people think

00:41:25.060 satan's omnipresent that he's he's tempting them right now and all that a lot of people think he's

00:41:30.100 omniscient they think satan can read your thoughts yeah you know i mean i think satan is better than

00:41:37.080 like if a human humans are not omniscient we can't read thoughts but if if the best

00:41:41.600 human interrogator can pick up on you know mannerisms and social cues and and be in a

00:41:47.520 room with someone without them saying and get really close and just watching them into the

00:41:51.260 so i think you know satan is like you know um you know exponentially uh more talented and

00:41:59.020 perceptive like he's he's nothing to be trifled with he satan is greater than you he's not greater

00:42:04.200 than God, but he, you know, greater is he that is in you, not you, but he that is in you than

00:42:08.580 he who is in the world. Um, but so, but, but if it's just us apart from God, Satan is, is not our

00:42:13.860 peer. He is, he is, um, vastly superior to us, but not infinite. And so, uh, I think Satan, um, is

00:42:19.600 very, very perceptive and very good at, at, um, at, um, concluding and, and deriving, um, uh,

00:42:27.660 deliberating our, our thoughts and, and, and knowing our temptations and those kinds of things.

00:42:32.180 but he some people think like if i just think a thought in my mind they attribute

00:42:37.080 attributes that are exclusive to god to satan satan is not an equal to god all right that's

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00:45:10.240 Yeah, and he does have power as well.

00:45:13.100 You look at the beginning of Job, he's able to call down fire from heaven, whether that's lightning or actual fire.

00:45:18.320 So he's able to do certain things, but again, it's only when God permits it.

00:45:22.840 Because if you think of Elijah and the prophets of Baal, you know, when they're having this competition about lighting the altar on fire.

00:45:29.900 Well, according to the book of Job, Satan is capable of doing it.

00:45:33.760 So if he's there, if he's one of the rebels who are there behind the prophets of Baal, he can't do it that day because God's not allowing him to do it that day.

00:45:43.460 But he seems to be capable of that sometimes.

00:45:46.180 So, yeah, my point is we shouldn't just automatically assume we know the abilities or capabilities of angels when the Bible tells us a fair amount of some things that they can do that are far beyond our ability.

00:46:00.620 But at the same time, and what you said is exactly right, greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.

00:46:05.980 So we don't need to fear them, but we should have a healthy respect for them.

00:46:11.480 Yeah, amen.

00:46:12.100 um going back one more thing and then and then i'll just uh you you i'll let you steer the

00:46:17.200 conversation for where you want to go next but um with the tower of babel and in terms of princes

00:46:22.140 and principalities principalities i i you know understand that as uh regions areas and then

00:46:28.100 princes being you know uh fallen angels that were um set up over um you know that had dominion over

00:46:35.280 certain principalities and regions um with that i and this is just another genuine question that i i

00:46:41.380 I don't know the answer, um, would, I certainly see that being as like regions being indicative

00:46:46.300 of nations and peoples and things like that.

00:46:48.480 Um, but, uh, would there be, or possibly be, uh, fallen angels over the realm of the ocean

00:46:57.440 that might like a fill it, you know, Philistines that that's where, you know, giants ended up

00:47:02.780 like Goliath and his brothers, you know, and we know that, uh, Joshua killed a lot of them.

00:47:06.760 The ones that, that, um, got away, went to Gath and, you know, Goliath is from Gath or,

00:47:10.480 you know and then gaza and some other places and then and then later on you know in the time of

00:47:14.820 david that you have the philistines they have giants uh you know descendants from the nephilim

00:47:19.240 but then also like one of their they've got their polytheists but one of their chief gods is a fish

00:47:25.120 god dagon you know and so and then i'm thinking about that and then i'm thinking about the greeks

00:47:30.080 and and maybe it's the same thing but just the greeks have a different name for them a different

00:47:33.640 conception you know but like um you know or the romans and like uh poseidon and and i'm wondering

00:47:38.060 Could one of these kind of Elohim, you know, sons of God, have not just a realm over land and a people group, a nation, but over the ocean or part of the ocean or something?

00:47:54.240 What do you think about that? 0.99

00:47:55.340 Yeah, I don't see why not.

00:47:56.680 I mean, Adam was given dominion over the rule over the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, you know, and the beasts of the earth, obviously.

00:48:05.100 So mankind was supposed to rule this earth as God's vice-regioner, and yet Adam, in a sense, yielded that dominion when he rebelled, when he sinned. 0.70

00:48:17.800 And then what we see at the Babel event, man rebels again, and God puts them under the subjection of these other entities.

00:48:25.320 So if the original dominion mandate included the fish of the sea, which it does, then, yeah, I don't know why they wouldn't also have that as well. 0.79

00:48:39.700 And then going back to what you said earlier, you said, you know, the ability to call fire out of heaven, but like any creature, not just angels, but any creature, only underneath the banner of the sovereignty of God, what he allows.

00:48:51.220 And so not able to call down fire on that particular day,

00:48:53.420 the showdown between the prophets of Baal and Elijah,

00:48:56.220 but able to do it in the book of Job.

00:48:58.380 Another example from the book of Job is Satan had the power to control wind.

00:49:03.440 And I know that almost sounds blasphemous

00:49:05.520 because the disciples say to Jesus on the boat in the middle of the storm,

00:49:08.120 who is this who has authority to where even the wind and the waves obey him?

00:49:12.840 And certainly Jesus is God.

00:49:14.440 And so he has the supreme authority over the created order.

00:49:17.940 But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no other creature that he's given also that ability.

00:49:25.200 And so I'm thinking of when, just to explicitly state the example, it's when God gives permission to Satan to torment Job, but before he has authority to afflict his body.

00:49:35.340 And then later on, he can afflict his body, but he can't kill him.

00:49:38.020 But in the first phase of torment, you can do anything to him, but you can't hurt his physical person.

00:49:42.920 And one of the things that he does is he kills all of Job's children by sending a great wind.

00:49:50.460 It seems as though he has power and control over the wind to cause the house where Job's children are to collapse on them and kill them.

00:49:58.100 And so back to my Poseidon theory, is it possible that, you know, fallen angels could have dominion over the sea, and then within that dominion over the sea, even a measure of control in what God may allow over wind and waves?

00:50:16.560 Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable.

00:50:18.400 Yeah, Job 119 is the verse that you're citing, that suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house.

00:50:24.600 And yeah, so I think that's entirely reasonable.

00:50:28.100 and consistent with what we see in scripture.

00:50:30.820 Cool.

00:50:31.480 Poseidon is a real being,

00:50:33.720 but it turns out shock.

00:50:35.160 All the Percy Jackson fans right now are excited.

00:50:37.340 So you heard it first,

00:50:38.940 Tim Chafee,

00:50:39.540 he has confirmed my theory.

00:50:40.680 Poseidon is real.

00:50:42.180 That's the good news.

00:50:43.200 Bad news. 0.99

00:50:44.000 He's a demon. 1.00

00:50:45.400 Or Neptune for you Romans out there. 1.00

00:50:47.960 Yeah, there you go. 1.00

00:50:48.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:49.160 Neptune, old Neptune.

00:50:50.800 All right.

00:50:51.340 So rest of the episode,

00:50:52.320 I don't have a whole lot more time,

00:50:54.820 but why don't you take 15, 20 minutes

00:50:56.400 and just anything you want to talk about.

00:50:58.480 You get the objections more than I do

00:51:00.160 because this is, I like this stuff,

00:51:01.920 but this is your specialty.

00:51:04.400 So why don't you just cover any base

00:51:07.200 that you think our listeners,

00:51:08.260 after all four episodes,

00:51:09.640 might still have this hanging,

00:51:11.100 looming question or objection.

00:51:12.920 Okay.

00:51:13.180 You know, get all your thoughts out.

00:51:15.260 Well, because we're not going to be able

00:51:17.160 to cover everything first,

00:51:18.100 you got to buy the book Fallen.

00:51:19.560 There you go.

00:51:20.300 Many people have.

00:51:21.800 So the sales have gone up

00:51:22.700 since your videos went up.

00:51:23.620 So I like that.

00:51:24.340 Awesome.

00:51:24.460 and keep keep on supporting it i appreciate that and uh several positive reviews too so i'm glad

00:51:30.340 for that thanks for doing that hold it up one more time uh tim just because some people will

00:51:34.720 um be watching but then also let's say the name because some people only listen

00:51:38.220 yeah fallen the sons of god and the nephilim by tim chafee that's me amazon uh is that where you

00:51:44.980 want them to go on amazon or if they go to my website they can still get 15 off and a signed

00:51:50.220 copy as well. So we've seen an increase in sales in both. So that's great. So one thing you and I

00:51:56.440 talked about before we came on, we talked about how there were no female angels, but we do think

00:52:01.780 that there probably were female giants, or at least I think there probably were. So the reason

00:52:08.060 for that is, first, the Bible never says they're not, that there aren't. So that doesn't prove

00:52:15.160 there were, but it does talk about certain clans like the Emim and the Zuzim. It talks about how

00:52:21.280 they were a people as great and as tall as the Anakim. So as a people group, they were tall.

00:52:28.560 And of course, if there's going to be an entire clan where they're perpetuating these giants,

00:52:34.080 you need females as part of that. As we've talked about, you need male and female. So it seems as

00:52:38.800 if the entire people group were giants, meaning that there would be female giants.

00:52:43.040 um maybe a parallel speaking of greek mythology like we were just talking about um you had the

00:52:49.240 amazons uh who were like these demigods goddesses um they they were often considered to be a giant

00:52:57.480 tesses um the we talked about before with the potential connection to like the odyssey

00:53:03.540 uh when he when his men land on the when he goes to the island of listrigonians there are

00:53:08.940 giantesses there that are described um again that doesn't prove my point but it's just it's

00:53:15.220 completely consistent with it um so and you have that in other mythologies as well that

00:53:20.980 seem to i think what we're seeing in some of these mythologies are um distorted echoes of

00:53:28.960 what really took place on this planet in some cases so when you have the gods coming down and

00:53:34.140 marrying women and having demigods the giants and everything i i think that is going right back to

00:53:40.000 what happened in genesis 6 and also afterward after the flood and so some people will look at

00:53:45.060 that and say well you're just borrowing from greek mythology aren't you sam i mean this whole fallen

00:53:48.660 angel view that's just copying greek mythology actually it's the other way around that's right

00:53:52.240 and what i found to be really ironic well let me i wouldn't say quite the other way around it's not

00:53:58.660 what both are describing what really happened one is describing it perfectly accurately because

00:54:05.600 part of god's inspired word that's the bible the other one is the distorted version of that that's

00:54:10.920 been passed down generation after generation after generation and it gets distorted a little bit

00:54:15.040 and embellished but what i found really interesting is a lot of times that people who hold the set

00:54:19.740 they'll use this objection that oh you're just borrowing greek mythology actually the shoe is on

00:54:26.080 the other foot because what we are doing is just interpreting the text for what it says and we

00:54:31.340 don't have to spiritualize the meaning of anything that we don't have to look for a non-straightforward

00:54:36.200 meaning on this passage and what's happening is that in so many of these cases they're resorting

00:54:41.840 to allegorizing the text well where did allegory as a hermeneutic come from and you can trace it

00:54:48.880 back to the uh greek philosophers in about the sixth century bc and there's a book by i think

00:54:57.020 his name is luke bassan he there was his um he's a french guy that was his dissertation um but it

00:55:03.680 was called how philosophy saved myth and what he was talking about is the the philosophers in the

00:55:09.320 sixth and fifth centuries bc uh the greek philosophers that the greek people loved homer

00:55:14.700 and Hesiod. This was, in a sense, their Bible. This was their story of origins. This is what

00:55:20.140 happened in the past. This is where they came from. And they didn't want to get rid of those

00:55:24.180 stories because as people started to become more and more modern and realize that some of these 0.55

00:55:29.860 things sound a little ridiculous. And do we really like the idea of Zeus coming down and marrying

00:55:34.700 and having offspring with this woman, and yet he's supposed to be with Hera? And then, no,

00:55:39.020 he's also going down and having an affair here and now an affair here. And they don't seem like

00:55:43.100 the most moral of characters. So people started to disbelieve in them. And so what the philosophers

00:55:50.120 did is they invented this new hermeneutic, which is that you allegorize it, you've changed.

00:55:55.840 Zeus isn't really a god. He's just now this force. He is now, he stands in for something else. So

00:56:01.760 that way we can keep the stories of Homer and Hesiod and we can still enjoy them. But we

00:56:06.180 understand it's not real. It's not reality in any way. We just reinterpreted it. It means something

00:56:11.640 else and then of course that idea that kind of philosophy made its way to alexandria which is

00:56:17.860 where a lot of this allegorical interpretation came from and the augustine got that from ambrose

00:56:26.260 that whole approach and so you the the set site view is actually the one that is borrowing from

00:56:33.180 greek mythology and so it's very ironic i know that might have sounded around a roundabout way

00:56:38.600 to get there. But the Fallen Angel view is a very straightforward view, which is why it was the

00:56:43.520 earliest view and the only view that we know of during the intertestamental period and the first

00:56:48.240 couple centuries of the church. It was straightforward.

00:56:52.880 Yeah, that's really good. Any other things you want to add? Any other loopholes you want to try

00:56:57.860 to close?

00:56:59.940 Yeah, so I get a lot of people asking about some of the modern things that we see. And,

00:57:05.760 you know tim i'd really like your thoughts on this even after you know hearing what we've talked

00:57:10.060 about um and i said you know my goal was to create or to write what was really the most

00:57:14.840 detailed or most serious bible study on this topic available not to get into all of the

00:57:19.700 sensationalism and so people still say okay but what do you think about these modern reports of

00:57:25.820 giants like the kandahar giant um this report that back in 2002 in afghanistan uh it's pretty

00:57:32.280 cool i'm not gonna lie it's a really cool story i'm not saying it's true i'm rooting for it i know

00:57:37.220 it's it's not plausible but go ahead yeah yeah it's it's it's a cool story these other than some

00:57:43.400 of our servicemen were killed that's not great right yeah yeah you're right yeah yeah so the

00:57:46.940 idea is that they they encountered up in the mountains of afghanistan this this 13 to 16 foot

00:57:51.840 giant who killed a couple of them and then they had to shoot at them with you know the machine

00:57:55.400 guns for 30 seconds before they finally dropped them and then of course the military came and

00:57:59.340 whisked them away and nobody knows what happened to the body.

00:58:03.220 And of course, they describe him with six fingers and six toes, which just so everybody

00:58:07.260 knows, the Bible does not say all the giants have six fingers and six toes.

00:58:11.060 There is one man described that way in the Bible, and he is a giant.

00:58:16.000 But people today who are not giants are born with either six fingers or six toes.

00:58:21.560 It's just called polydactyly.

00:58:22.840 And there are a lot of examples.

00:58:23.840 You can look at x-rays of it.

00:58:24.900 It looks really weird.

00:58:26.660 I think we've all seen it before on Prince's Bride, right?

00:58:29.340 the six-fingered man count rugan um but it's just a it's something that happens it's just

00:58:34.880 a genetic duplication and it's usually like the the ring finger gets duplicated so you have two

00:58:39.540 of those and yeah but it could be one of the other fingers as well so yeah giants didn't have to be

00:58:45.060 like that same thing sort of like with the solomon island giants people ask about that

00:58:49.220 solomon islands are pretty remote kind of in between uh australia and fiji a little bit north

00:58:54.800 of that and there are reports of these giants living in caves in the inner parts of the island

00:59:00.840 and nobody goes there because they disappear and or they get eaten but again i'm not opposed to the

00:59:08.400 idea that there could still be some remnants of giants existing because i think giants did exist

00:59:12.680 on this earth and i think the bible describes that but in this day and age when we have cell

00:59:17.480 phones and so many people no matter which country whether your first world second world third world

00:59:21.840 So many people have cell phones with cameras. Somebody somewhere at some time or with a drone could get pretty good footage if these, I think, could get good footage if these people are still around.

00:59:34.580 So until I have some hard evidence of that rather than just anecdotal evidence on the Internet, I'm not going to base my arguments on this at all.

00:59:47.660 I'd rather just see what the Bible says. And if it says there were giants, OK, there were giants.

00:59:51.840 Right. Yeah, that's our position. What we're convicted of is that there were giants. What I'm open to is that there might still be giants. But my argument is not that there were giants, and that's what the Bible says, because I can show you giants today. No, my argument is there were giants, because the Bible says there were giants.

01:00:09.420 Yeah.

01:00:10.140 And I would have, you know, I think you and I would probably share this as well.

01:00:13.420 It's a little bit different topic, but it's the same idea that, you know,

01:00:16.460 there's some people who think there are maybe some dinosaurs existing somewhere in remote places,

01:00:20.300 like in the Likawala Swamp of Cameroon and the Congo, you know,

01:00:24.780 it's just this huge unexplored area and there are reports of it.

01:00:27.880 Well, again, somebody get really good footage of it and maybe I would go for it.

01:00:32.720 It wouldn't be surprising to me.

01:00:34.260 As a Young Earth creationist, dinosaurs were on the ark and they got off the ark

01:00:37.660 and they didn't live that long ago i think they're probably extinct but maybe there's still

01:00:42.440 a few around um i don't need them around to believe it that that they were there and that

01:00:47.460 they were on the ark but um yeah so i think that's a very similar idea we because this

01:00:53.120 scriptures tell us something we believe that to be true and as a result yeah this could still be

01:00:57.580 going on but let's not let's not focus on the modern um sensational idea like some people do

01:01:06.180 those are the youtube videos i get a lot of views it's true if i made a video that said i saw the

01:01:12.280 island the giants on solomon island then i'd probably get a lot of views but um i'd rather

01:01:17.800 focus on what scripture says same thing goes for the the reports about north american giants in

01:01:22.220 the 1800s and early 1900s six fingers six toes red hair double rows of teeth it's very similar

01:01:28.200 to these other ones again plausible within the realm of possibility sure do i really think they

01:01:33.780 were there i not i don't think so but maybe i yeah it's it's not a big deal to me one way or the

01:01:41.100 other um or related to that did you know some people think that we need the nephilim because

01:01:46.600 they built like the great pyramid right we need really big people to build really big things well

01:01:51.580 no you you need smart people ingenious people to build really big things um people are

01:02:00.040 people who do construction and figure things out like this are very intelligent and they are

01:02:06.680 capable of of doing things that are my mind doesn't work that way um i watched a demonstration

01:02:12.800 of how maybe they would have got some of the obelisks up you know if you've seen the movie

01:02:15.860 the ten commandments you have the push pull men you have you know 10 000 people getting ready to

01:02:19.860 move the stone and one demonstration was what if they just use a giant kite and use wind power

01:02:24.440 and you just cut the rope at the right time then you just think you work smarter not harder

01:02:30.400 And maybe that is how they did things.

01:02:33.840 Now, I'm not saying just in every case, but over in Israel, you can see in certain locations.

01:02:42.020 What's the name of the city that we visited?

01:02:43.820 The ruins that we visited. 0.97

01:02:46.140 There is a, I think it's Bet-Shien.

01:02:49.460 It's just south of Galilee, of the Sea of Galilee.

01:02:53.080 And pretty close, just east of Mount Gilboa.

01:02:55.720 there's a place where you can see

01:02:57.780 like this

01:02:59.440 almost like how they would have moved the big

01:03:01.840 stones that you see down

01:03:03.700 in the western wall and everything

01:03:05.140 the ashlar

01:03:07.740 stones during Harrod's time they would actually

01:03:09.780 build the wheels around them and then

01:03:11.740 stones become the axle

01:03:12.800 so

01:03:15.520 that's how you move something really big well my mind

01:03:17.640 I would have thought how do we get enough people

01:03:19.780 to lift this thing up and carry it or

01:03:21.360 roll it across logs or something well how about

01:03:23.720 you just make that the axle and you roll it

01:03:25.720 hmm so yeah people are creative we don't have to think that really big people needed to be here to

01:03:33.200 move these really big things yeah that's a really good point um yeah it's entirely possible the

01:03:39.400 giants uh did set up stone hinge or something like that but uh but it's not yeah i'm not yeah

01:03:43.880 and i should clarify i'm not saying that they didn't help obviously if you have somebody who's

01:03:47.660 four times the strength that could help that's helpful so that's possible but you're right it's

01:03:52.020 not absolutely necessary. And, but, you know, so whether it was giant, you know, it may have been

01:03:56.980 giants or it may have been just know-how, ingenuity, which is possible just because man's

01:04:01.640 created in the image of God. And contrary to popular belief, we're not the first generation

01:04:06.300 of intelligent people. In fact, I would argue our generation is kind of a little bit dumber than I 0.99

01:04:12.580 would like. And I think some past generations were actually smarter than us. We may have more access 0.99

01:04:17.100 to technology and things like that, but I don't think that we're necessarily smarter. So there

01:04:21.960 were genius people in the antediluvian age and geniuses after. And also I was going to say whether 0.90

01:04:28.200 giants aided and helped or whether fallen angels taught their offspring and then descendants taught

01:04:35.420 them certain techniques and skills and tricks of the trade and carried down, passed down certain

01:04:44.420 technologies that allowed without the aid of giants, giants still existing, but without the

01:04:49.940 of giants, just having knowledge of certain engineering and mechanics and physics to be

01:04:57.300 able to make things happen. That's entirely possible. And in terms of just, so knowledge

01:05:03.080 and fallen angels passing down knowledge and then man himself being created in God's image and being

01:05:07.360 smart and having certain people that were genius, just like we have today, certain people that are

01:05:10.880 really smart. And then also giants as possible could come to the aid with certain things. And

01:05:18.040 then uh the last thing i was going to say also just uh sheer numbers you could have just a lot

01:05:22.060 of people you know moving like you know um you know in charles heston you know like uh you know

01:05:27.420 the um the ten commandments like just a lot of people moving something big and and with uh that

01:05:33.120 you know in ancient civilizations i think that's another thing number one we're not the first

01:05:37.180 generation to be smart but i also have a sneaking suspicion this one i can't prove as much but i

01:05:42.920 have a sneaking suspicion that we're not the first generation to be uh large numerically um i i i

01:05:49.300 understand statistically um in terms of um you know the entire population combined a cumulative

01:05:57.140 population of people up until the time of christ you know a lot of people argue being relatively

01:06:02.800 small um i i think that's true if we're saying post-flood to the time of christ um i think that's

01:06:09.640 true looking looking at the population how it's exponentially grown and sadly uh the west needs to

01:06:15.400 uh be fruitful multiply because we're starting to shrink but um but i do have some suspicions

01:06:21.820 just speculation ideas about um you know before the flood uh with you know in the case of adam

01:06:28.300 and several 900 year plus lifespans and um and in terms of fertility there's nothing in the bible

01:06:35.060 that tells us, you know, that a woman is, you know, like Eve is, we don't know. I mean,

01:06:39.560 she could have lived for 700 years, 800 years. Um, and she could have been fertile for 600 years 0.64

01:06:44.980 and, um, they're being fruitful and multiply. Like we, you know, I mean, Adam and Eve, you know,

01:06:50.260 had other sons and daughters. We don't know how many, it could have been seven other sons and

01:06:53.600 daughters. It could have been, um, yeah, 70, or it could have been a couple of hundred, you know,

01:06:59.280 and that's just one couple. And, you know, and then span that out and exponentially, I heard

01:07:04.700 one guy and i'm not even saying this is true but i heard one guy his estimation he did like some

01:07:09.760 it was just it was intriguing i don't know if it was true but it was intriguing the way he did the

01:07:13.440 numbers and said that there could have been 11 billion people in the 1500 year time period from

01:07:18.940 adam to the flood uh a larger population than today that's crazy go ahead we have calculations

01:07:26.320 that the arc showing even if you use the modern growth rate you would get to uh trying to remember

01:07:32.020 it's like 400 million but even if you go up just like one tenth of one percent suddenly you're up

01:07:37.060 into like the four billion range and then wow you go up one tenth you get like 18 billion or some

01:07:42.180 crazy number um so it's very possible they had a high population before the flood so it could be

01:07:48.500 with a margin of error 400 million to 18 billion yes yeah if i remember the numbers correctly but

01:07:55.160 it's just it doesn't take much when you got exponential growth so giants could could build

01:08:01.300 pyramids but also um a few million people working together that's you know that's also uh pretty

01:08:08.880 pretty yeah and i would say pyramids are post-flood but yeah they absolutely they could

01:08:13.660 right yeah um i know we're running low on time i got one other thing i wanted to real quickly

01:08:18.440 bring up because i hear this all the time like oh yeah i believe in giants too i see them playing

01:08:22.240 on tv in the nba that is not what we're talking about really tall people today are not what we're

01:08:27.080 talking about um you know you look at the the tv shows there were like the tallest people on earth

01:08:31.580 and um i i knew the the guy who was the tallest person in america for several years until he

01:08:37.080 passed away about three years ago i um igor vav kavinski his name was he used to when he was 13

01:08:43.120 he was my height and he used to come into the store that i worked at and i talked to him a few

01:08:46.400 times and um he ended up being like 7 7 11 i think he got to or something and um but um that is not

01:08:55.500 or we're talking about somebody who's got a growth on the pituitary gland

01:08:58.800 or something, you know, some tumor that causes them to grow super fast

01:09:02.120 and they're trying to, doctors are trying to slow the growth

01:09:04.100 or maybe it's Marfan syndrome where usually that affects the joints

01:09:08.200 and it allows people to get taller, but not super tall.

01:09:11.480 Maybe they're more like 6'5", 6'6",

01:09:13.200 but then a lot of times they're weaker as a result too.

01:09:16.060 We're talking about people who are warriors,

01:09:18.020 people who are sons of other giants,

01:09:20.860 whereas in these cases, they're not.

01:09:22.540 it's not something that is passed down generation after generation it's just one

01:09:27.780 mutation or something that has caused that particular person so what the bible is describing

01:09:33.140 something very different people who are not necessarily awkward or clumsy or going to die

01:09:39.140 at a very early age because of their size or something their their entire clans or groups of

01:09:45.160 people and generation after generation who are giants i okay one final question for me this

01:09:51.620 it just came to my mind it's random but if angels male physical angels could procreate with

01:09:58.980 female physical human beings could one of those fallen angels if he sticks around

01:10:05.020 um could he then or another fallen angel who didn't sire this particular nephilim 0.79

01:10:13.240 another fallen angel then mate with a female nephilim to where the angel gene pool is now

01:10:20.940 at 75% instead of 50.

01:10:23.820 Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

01:10:25.160 I don't know why they wouldn't be capable of doing that.

01:10:27.740 I mean, I, I don't look at it in terms of like the percentage of the gene pool is, I

01:10:32.340 mean, maybe that's a good way to look at it because I think that they are also made in

01:10:37.820 God's image.

01:10:38.220 We talked about how it's not like a one kind of an elephant and a different animal all

01:10:42.780 together, but sort of the same sort of animal, same sort of creature.

01:10:45.920 right and so i i tend when it calls them men every now and i tend to think of them as being

01:10:51.100 fully human um but different because of their parentage um but if that if what you're describing

01:10:58.720 is the right way and a lot of people who hold the fallen angel view do look at it that way

01:11:02.160 um yeah why wouldn't you be able to get to 75 or next generation 88 or something

01:11:06.660 exactly exactly and the only reason i'm asking that is i and i know that this is something that

01:11:11.320 you would disagree with, but which is totally fine. Your position is, makes a lot of sense,

01:11:16.180 but it would be possible if the angels are, you know, and this may, you know, I think part of it

01:11:20.800 deals with, you know, the intent and purpose of the angels and why they're doing this in the first

01:11:24.980 place. Um, you know, but if, if part of what they're trying to do is, is just completely

01:11:30.160 pervert, you know, God's creation and those kinds of things, um, but also create a monster, um,

01:11:35.840 then you know i i wonder if you know maybe nephilim 1.0 you know 50 50 angel human is you 0.61

01:11:45.020 know and then their descendants being giants is you know gives you eight foot giants you know

01:11:49.500 nine foot giant you know like like um goliath but i wonder if you can up that angel percentage

01:11:55.880 dna and if you really could get tall as cedars and not as a metaphor but you know maybe not 120

01:12:03.580 but i've i've read some you know i've done some reading where you know particular cedars in a

01:12:08.280 mesopotamia you know uh region um you know is you know 40 50 i don't know i'm just throwing it out

01:12:15.680 there may not be possible that's a good teaser for our last episode isn't it that's yeah we can

01:12:20.840 leave it on that hey it's an interesting thought i mean i um i haven't really thought too much

01:12:26.420 about it because of how i how i viewed the the situation um well and i don't think that's your

01:12:32.540 calling. I think like, I love, I'm so appreciative. I think it's our last episode, the end of our

01:12:37.140 last episode. So I want to end by at least saying this, I'm so appreciative of your work. And I

01:12:42.060 think the, the focus of your work is to make a strongly biblical and plausible argument for why

01:12:49.680 this is not fantastical. You're not the guy who's doing the YouTube videos of the, of the, you know,

01:12:56.380 uh, 3000 L's, you know, like the, you know, the, the giant, you know, where, where, uh,

01:13:01.960 mountains plateaus are just tree stumps that giants who were seven miles tall, like, you

01:13:06.980 know, that's fun.

01:13:08.080 It's intriguing, you know, like, you know, I, but you're not that guy.

01:13:11.680 And, and my point is like, we, we need you.

01:13:13.620 We need the guy who, um, makes a very reasonable, plausible, and most importantly, biblical

01:13:20.860 argument for taking the Bible seriously.

01:13:24.400 And I think that's what you've done.

01:13:25.620 So I'll be the guy who tries to think of a creative way to get to a 40 foot tall giant, because it just sounds awesome. And I think it's possible, but you'd be the guy who does what you do.

01:13:34.140 I think both are needed. And I appreciate those kind words. I really do about me, about the book. But sometimes we do, because we can be too careful. Sometimes we don't think outside the box enough to, so it is helpful to have people get very creative and think, I wonder if this, and then one day, and I think Michael Heiser was good at this, but, you know, within the academic community,

01:13:54.940 here's a guy who's super smart saying things that most academics didn't want to touch with

01:13:59.340 a 10 foot pole and i'm not saying that he was right all the time but he was he was talking

01:14:03.260 about some of the weird things that most people well i don't want to talk about that well people

01:14:07.620 are a lot of people are super curious about this and a lot of unbelievers are very curious believers

01:14:12.160 are curious why would we not want to um go where they are and try to talk about the things they're

01:14:18.140 talking about understand their world their worldview and somehow some way connect them

01:14:23.780 to the gospel and help them see the truth. Amen. And especially in our day and age where I really

01:14:28.380 think like, sure, technology continues to develop and improve and all these kinds of things. Yet at

01:14:34.200 the same time, though, in terms of worldviews, it is becoming increasingly evident and blatantly

01:14:40.820 obvious to even unbelievers that secular humanism is, that dog won't hunt. It's not holding up.

01:14:49.420 I think in some ways the world is being re-enchanted. The dark enchantment of materialism is starting to fade. We're starting to see that it doesn't work. It's not true that Darwin was a hack and always was.

01:15:06.400 And so as the world is becoming more enchanted, I think, that I see, I don't know about you, but I see like a phenomenon happening right now, a trend of a exponentially growing infatuation and interest in the supernatural.

01:15:20.500 And if Christians, out of some desire to be sophisticated and buttoned up in ivory tower, if out of a desire to impress the secular humanist, the scientist who always picked on us, I feel like some creation guys are still trying to get the approval of that atheist scientist.

01:15:41.460 You're never going to get it. They think you're stupid. Who cares? But if we keep trying to stand 1.00

01:15:45.580 in that space and be legitimate, legitimate, incredible in the secular humanism space,

01:15:51.080 meanwhile, the culture is realizing that that space isn't worth listening to and they're getting

01:15:56.460 enchanted. But by the time they get enchanted, we've successfully moved Christianity over to

01:16:03.660 this very reasonable, materialistic, natural position. And we've taken all the enchantment 0.98

01:16:10.260 out of Christianity, but the people actually want enchanted worldviews again, then the only 0.73

01:16:15.880 options they'll have available to them will be occults, the occult and paganism. And I want to 0.90

01:16:22.180 say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Christianity, yeah, I'm a Christian. I believe in dragons. I believe

01:16:27.760 in giants. I believe in fallen angels. I believe in, I personally, I believe that there were

01:16:34.660 unicorns. Sirens is in the King James Version. And I think there's some creative things to do

01:16:39.660 with that. And in the wilderness, I don't think it was just snakes, seraphs, and fire. I think

01:16:45.740 dragons were maybe biting people. And you can't get any more fantastical than this magical world

01:16:52.840 that God made. Yeah. And, you know, the world may call us foolish, but if the Lord says,

01:16:59.920 well done, good and faithful servant, that's really what matters. And, you know, Paul talked

01:17:02.920 about in 1 Corinthians 4 that he said, we are fools for Christ's sake. Okay, well, if the world

01:17:08.120 thinks i'm a fool for believing in the risen lord and savior and then what his word said so be it

01:17:12.560 i'm a fool i don't i don't care because i just want to hear him say well done good and faithful

01:17:16.700 servant and um so i appreciate having the opportunity to talk about this and i appreciate

01:17:21.880 your um to have me on and and discussing these and making me think through some of these things

01:17:27.880 that in a maybe the more speculative that i haven't necessarily gone down it's fun to talk

01:17:33.520 about it and i guess just to speak to the maybe the listeners real quickly just um dig in dive

01:17:39.640 into god's word and hold that up as the authority um and this is not something that we have to split

01:17:45.520 the church on you know i see those kind of comments too that uh what a heretic you know

01:17:50.980 because of a different view on the fallen angel i on this i come on it could be wrong but that's

01:17:56.880 not heresy yeah so well tim thank you so much it's an honor um i'll let you go and i hope that

01:18:04.180 our listeners have enjoyed all right joel thanks so much for having me god bless you god bless

01:18:26.880 You

The NXR Podcast - November 11, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - No Such Thing As Female Angels!？ with Tim Chaffey - ICYMI

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