Dr. Tim Chafee returns to the show to finish up our mini-series on the Nephilim, Fallen Angels, and the Giants. In this episode, we cover the most frequently asked questions about the fallen angels and giants.
00:00:28.160We've got several hundred reviews so far, but we'd like to reach a thousand reviews
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00:00:41.900All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
00:00:44.820I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin, here with Right Response Ministries.
00:00:47.940This is our fourth and final episode with Dr. Tim Chafee coming back onto the show
00:00:53.440to finish our four-part series on the Nephilim, the Watchers. Well, I guess I should start in
00:00:59.340order. The Watchers, Fallen Angels, the Nephilim, and the Giants. And today is kind of like a free
00:01:04.520safety catch-all where we're kind of just dotting I's and crossing T's and finishing up all the
00:01:11.180looming hangover questions that you guys have had, the most commonly asked questions from the
00:01:16.840previous three episodes that we've already done. And just to give you a little bit of a sample of
00:01:20.880tasting, we're going to talk about is there really such a thing as female angels? We kind of have a1.00
00:01:26.140sneaking suspicion they might all be men. I know that sounds crazy. Hear us out. We've got some
00:01:30.220arguments. So are there female angels or are they all male angels? And then male angels, are they
00:01:36.500physical, body and spirit, or just spirit? How could they procreate with human female women?0.97
00:01:43.300How does that work? And then we talk about, in addition to all that, how big were giants0.99
00:01:50.140actually? What kind of size did they get to? I think it's fascinating. It's some of the most
00:01:55.640fascinating, but also really practical questions, handling some of the most frequent, not only
00:02:01.140questions, but objections to this idea that fallen angels that rebelled against God could actually
00:02:06.040procreate with human women. A lot of people just think that that's fantastical. I think that's
00:02:10.220what the Word of God teaches. So does Dr. Tim Chafee. And I think that between the two of us,
00:02:14.920we make a very compelling argument. So tune in now.
00:02:18.660Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:02:29.680All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel
00:02:33.520Webin with Right Response Ministries. Today, I am joined for the fourth and final time with Dr.
00:02:38.920Tim Chafee. We've been doing a mini series, a four-part series. And so if you haven't seen
00:02:43.300the first three parts, I encourage you to feel free to watch this video. But if you have any
00:02:47.060looming questions, you know, well, they didn't really make a thorough argument because they
00:02:50.580didn't answer this objection and they didn't handle this, you know, nuance or whatever.
00:02:54.700It's very likely that we actually did address it in one of the previous parts. So I encourage you
00:02:59.700to go back and check out the first three episodes. But you don't have to do that preemptively. You're
00:03:04.300welcome to stay and just watch this and work your way backwards or forwards, whatever you want to
00:03:08.240do. But this is the fourth and final episode dealing with the Nephilim. We're dealing with
00:03:12.880fallen angels. We're dealing with the Nephilim. And we're also dealing with their, you know,1.00
00:03:18.120down generations giants. And so that's what we've been dealing with. And today we really want to
00:03:22.080focus in on some of the questions that you guys have left for us in the comments and the things
00:03:28.580that seem to be the most inquisitive questions, but also the most popular common questions,
00:03:34.820right working with you know faqs you know trying to deal with the most frequently asked questions
00:03:39.900how can we address all those so this is kind of a final summary video where we dot some i's cross
00:03:45.100some t's and without further ado let's go ahead and get started tim chafee thank you for coming
00:03:50.140on the show again hey joel it's great to be with you again thanks for having me it's been a lot of
00:03:54.520fun so far and i'm looking forward to this one as well all right well let's go ahead and do this you
00:03:58.920said that it might be helpful to give obviously we don't want to i mean people can go back and
00:04:03.120watch the video. So we want to keep it brief, but it might be helpful for people just to get a
00:04:06.600little bit of a refresher. So why don't you take care of that job and recap a little bit of what
00:04:12.320we've covered thus far? Yeah. Okay. So some of the objections we get, let me, let me just give
00:04:16.320you like a rapid fire type of thing. We, a lot of times I hear people say, well, Jesus said angels
00:04:22.160can't do that. And they'll point to Matthew 22, 30. Just very quickly, we've covered that in two
00:04:26.880other episodes. So no, Jesus didn't say they cannot do that. He said the ones in who are still
00:04:30.880in heaven don't do that so he never said about what the ones who left heaven and are rebelling
00:04:36.040what they can or can't do um some people say well this whole issue that you're talking about the
00:04:40.780fallen angel view that's all based on the book of enoch uh it's not true uh there's much in this
00:04:45.500much about in the bible in the book of enoch is just representing a an interpretation that was
00:04:50.080had that people had during the intertestamental period so it aligns with this but it's not based
00:04:54.720on the book of enoch uh some people think that the spies were lying in numbers 13 and saying that
00:05:00.300the Nephilim were in the land. But we have to remember that the narrator, Moses himself,
00:05:05.280tells us earlier in the chapter that the spies actually saw the Anakim there and the Anakim
00:05:10.360are of the Nephilim. So there were giants in the land. Some people wonder how it's possible that
00:05:15.880people like you and me could think that God would ever allow something so wretched, so perverse.
00:05:21.000And all we have to do is look around our culture, our world today. God permits or allows abortion.
00:05:25.640He allows murder. He allows rape. He allows all sorts of evil things. Just because that stuff exists, it doesn't mean we get to deny the reality of it. We don't have to be comfortable. We don't have to like it, but it occurs.0.99
00:05:38.700So those are just some of the objections that I hear, or the Bible would never call this marriage between the fallen angels and human women because that's not what biblical marriage is.
00:05:49.400Well, Solomon had a thousand wives, princes, and concubines, and that's not ideal either.
00:05:55.820If you think about worship in the Bible, you have true worship, and you also have false worship.0.56
00:06:00.460You have the worship of pagan gods, of idols and everything, and you have the true worship of the one true God.
00:06:07.220So the same word is used in both cases.
00:06:09.900It's just one is what is ideal and what is right versus what is a distortion of that.
00:06:16.000Great. Okay, so then let's start there.
00:06:19.120with the angels, you know, specifically what you were talking about, you said, Jesus didn't say
00:06:24.180they can't do that to, you know, just to explicitly spell out the, that he says, you know, that angels
00:06:29.940do not marry in heaven. You know, that when we go to heaven, you know, cause it's, it's one of
00:06:36.340those gotcha moments with the religious rulers of the day within, within Judaism, they're, you know,0.97
00:06:40.980trying to, to, you know, to trick Jesus. And so they say, you know, Jesus, if there was this0.92
00:06:46.800hypothetical situation with a woman who had seven husbands, right? And, you know, the first husband
00:06:50.840dies, she marries again. The second, you know, not simultaneously, but one's in sequence after
00:06:55.080another. The husbands keep dying. She keeps remarrying. And then, you know, eventually has
00:06:59.980a total of seven husbands. Which husband will she be married to in the resurrection? And Jesus0.91
00:07:03.960responds and says, you know, in the resurrection, you know, in heaven, we will be as the angels are
00:07:08.900who don't marry. And so to use that and say, well, there you have it. Case closed. Out of the mouth
00:07:14.080of Christ himself, angels cannot procreate. Well, wait a second, you just eisegeted, you just read
00:07:19.080into the text by that word cannot, speaking of ability, rather than what Jesus says they do not
00:07:24.620do, speaking of, that's not a prescriptive, that's a descriptive language of this is how it is,
00:07:32.060but that's not speaking in terms of possibility, ability. And so angels in heaven don't marry.
00:07:37.940rebellious angels who leave heaven, Jesus says nothing about what they can do. And so that's
00:07:45.040what's in reference there. But I think that it's interesting. We've explored a little bit of this
00:07:49.720in our previous episode, the most recent episode, I think part three, but I think it's worth
00:07:54.300exploring again. I am of the persuasion. I think you are, neither of us are definitive, but I think
00:07:59.880we both lean in this direction. I'm of the persuasion that one of the reasons angels don't
00:08:04.600Mary in heaven is that it's not God's design. It's not his will, but also it is an impossibility
00:08:11.640because I truly am, again, not a hundred percent sure, but leaning heavily towards
00:08:18.100the possibility that angels are exclusively male. You want to talk about that? What do you think
00:08:23.940about that? Yeah, we did cover that a bit in one of the other episodes as well. There's no
00:08:30.380indication anywhere in scripture at least no clear indication anywhere in scripture that
00:08:34.700um angels could be described as feminine um we there is the one verse that you you and i talked
00:08:40.760about in zechariah 5 where it's a vision of these two storks and they're in the feminine but whether
00:08:45.880or not that and some people think that they're demons or at least evil spirits uh you know
00:08:50.280fallen angels but again it's a vision how much do we read into that and um are they really
00:08:57.640representing two individuals um spirits or are they also are they representing maybe nations or
00:09:04.300some other corporate entities groups like like the two witnesses in revelation that could be two
00:09:09.380individual people but it also could those two you know lots of faithful biblical scholars have
00:09:14.300have defined that as a representative of two churches corporate groups of of people and so
00:09:20.240to use a vision uh that's just not the strong but when we have a narrative historical narrative like
00:09:26.000gabriel you know speaking to mary or uh three angels one of them being the angel of the lord
00:09:31.500uh himself but then accompanied with two other angels meeting with abraham and in all these
00:09:36.000instances not visions but actual um physical um appearances of angels as as uh historical
00:09:42.520narrative in the script they're exclusively man yeah that's right you do have the one
00:09:46.380verse in hebrews 13 that talks about how we're supposed to be hospitable to strangers because
00:09:51.100some people have entertained angels unaware again it doesn't say therefore someday there's
00:09:55.600going to be a female who shows up at your door and you should, you know, welcome her because
00:09:58.780it's really a female angel. It doesn't say that it would be within the realm of possibility just
00:10:03.540from the textual standpoint, but it is not proof at all that there are female angels. Um, I would
00:10:09.880agree with you whenever we do see angels in scripture, whenever they are, whenever their
00:10:13.960gender is referenced at all, it's always male, um, masculine. So my, yeah, so thank you. So,
00:10:20.040so further fleshing that out, my position, um, and I think you and I are, are pretty linked up
00:10:24.800on this. I'm sure there'd be some differences, but, um, my, my position is that, um, so now
00:10:29.640taking that, so we we've established that I know is, I know it's not a, you know, hands down
00:10:33.720definitive case, but we've, we've made a plausible argument for angels being male. Um, and so it's,
00:10:38.980it's a two part, two prong argument. Angels don't marry in heaven one, because there's only dude
00:10:43.260angels in heaven, you know, and not chick angels in heaven. Uh, but then two, because it's also0.99
00:10:47.780not God's design and will. So it's, uh, these aren't the angels that are in heaven are not
00:10:51.380rebellious angels. They're submitted to the lordship and authority of God as the supreme
00:10:56.560being, but also they're male, who would they marry? But on earth, one, you have females,0.93
00:11:02.920not female angels, but you do have female human beings. And then two, these are rebellious angels0.68
00:11:08.760who are no longer submitted to God's will. Now the question is, okay, so if angels are male,
00:11:14.280Um, the next thing is though, like, but, but how does, how does one male species, um, mate with a
00:11:21.900another female species? And, and so what I would add, uh, now dealing with, with that objection
00:11:27.360is, um, I think of David in the Psalms, which is, uh, finds its ultimate highest fulfillment,
00:11:32.740um, as the author of Hebrews spells out for us, uh, it has a messianic, uh, fulfillment in Christ.
00:11:38.660So that the ultimate interpretation with David's, what I'm about to quote of David in the Psalms
00:11:42.740is that Christ ultimately fulfills it.
00:12:08.480tiny little creature, namely you and I.
00:12:11.580But this infinite God who created all things is so compassionate and kind that he loves man, even man, us.
00:12:22.040And he says, who is man that you are mindful of him or the son of man that you should show compassion to him?
00:12:27.640You made him just a little lower than the angels.
00:12:32.040And I understand that this is a fairly literal hermeneutic that I'm about to apply here, but a lot of text should be interpreted literally.
00:12:39.460And I take that to mean that a male angel and a female human being would not be likened to a male elephant and a female frog trying to mate.
00:12:56.220I take it much more like a little lower.
00:12:58.840If man is made just a little lower, and I know that you hold the view that angels like man have likewise been created in the image of God.
00:13:05.280So both are image-bearing creatures, and one is only a little lower than the other.
00:13:09.980I take it as like two different species separate, but within the canine larger family, like
00:13:16.780a Great Dane and a German Shepherd, angel, male, female, human being, and that they
00:17:36.360And so people who make way too much out of that one use of the word, when there's such a broad range, syntactical range of what that word can mean, I think you have to look at the rest of the context of Scripture.
00:17:52.020And in this case, when angels appear, they have human form. They can look human enough for the sinful men at Sodom to lust after them.
00:18:06.360and want to molest them um they can eat and drink with abraham just before that0.62
00:18:11.120and they can pull a lot by the hand out of the out of the city uh so they can do all sorts of
00:18:16.080physical human activity and to me i i think you're right i think they are uh since i believe that
00:18:24.680they are also made in god's image then we are in a in a sense that they're they're not so different
00:18:31.860than us. And even though they may not have the same exact flesh and blood while they're in
00:18:39.120eternity, you know, not in eternity, but while they're in heaven now. But I think if you think
00:18:42.860about eternity, this is one area, Joel, you and I, I think would agree on this where maybe our
00:18:48.180amillennial brothers would not, but I'm not quite sure where some of them would go on this, but in
00:18:53.020the eternal state. So we have new glorified, not new, we have glorified bodies. This body gets
00:19:00.280glorified the one that goes into the grave is the one that comes out of the grave but it's glorified
00:19:03.380it's transformed paul talks about in first penthouse 15 and we're going to inhabit a new
00:19:08.260heavens and a new earth the new jerusalem is described in revelation 21 22 um it's going to
00:19:14.120be a physical reality for all eternity it's not floating on the clouds playing harps it's not
00:19:20.020a bodiless existence we are meant to have a body and we're going to have a physical body for all
00:19:26.020eternity again glorified we're not going to get sore and you know like we do now and achy joints
00:19:31.620or anything right um and angels will be there and i don't think that they're just going to be
00:19:37.540floating around ethereal spirits i think that they're going to actually have bodies as well
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00:23:30.060But when his body came back, and it's sad,
00:23:33.340you know, but his body did not come back for good. His body came back to die twice and Lazarus had
00:23:38.860to die twice, you know? And so, you know, he did not come back with a glorified body. He came back
00:23:44.460with the same body in the same state, but just resuscitated, revived, but not resurrected in
00:23:51.620terms of glorified. But Jesus- Which is why Jesus can be called the firstfruits from among the dead.
00:23:57.280Exactly. Otherwise Lazarus, you know, or even before him. Exactly. So Jesus, the firstfruits
00:24:03.120of being resurrected, glorified body from the dead, same body that he walked on, uh, on earth
00:24:09.980in, uh, for, you know, approximately, you know, 33 plus years until, until he was crucified,
00:24:15.060same body, but made new, not a new body, meaning another body, same body, but made new in a new
00:24:21.160state, a higher state. And, uh, but here's the thing, uh, he wasn't just resurrected. And then,
00:24:25.660and then for the last 2000 years, he's hiding out, uh, somewhere alive on earth. Uh, he was
00:24:30.900resurrected and then he ascended. And in his glorified state, he was able, we know he was
00:24:36.200able to vanish, walk through a door as he, you know, appearing to the disciples, the door was
00:24:42.520locked. He walks into the room. So he's able to appear and vanish. And we don't know exactly how
00:24:46.680that works in his glorified body state. But in the ascension, he doesn't just disappear after giving
00:24:54.220his final words to his disciples. He physically ascends, levitates, goes up into the sky and only
00:25:01.280disappears because the text explicitly says he was then hidden behind the clouds. And what I'm
00:25:06.620trying to argue to, this is my point, is that Jesus, the God-man in flesh, still in flesh these
00:25:15.540past 2,000 years, he went somewhere. And if he is physical, he has a physical body now, he's not
00:25:23.220merely physical, but he does have a physical body forevermore, then that physical body can only
00:25:28.340exist logically in a physical place. So he didn't go to the 17th dimension that is solely a spiritual
00:25:35.840plane. Wherever heaven is, not even just the new heavens on the new earth that is yet to come,
00:25:42.680but even heaven now has some, it must have some physical element in the sense that Jesus has a
00:25:49.100physical body. He's seated, a physical body can only be seated on a physical throne. And so the
00:25:54.760idea that there are physical, other physical creatures, namely angels in this place that is
00:26:00.520spiritual, but also has a physical element to encompass, to be the conducive context for
00:26:05.700physical beings, none of this is crazy. And I think the fact that what we know, a lot of it
00:26:10.740seems like speculation, but if we argue from what's definitive, we know that Jesus right now
00:26:14.600has a physical body and he's somewhere and that somewhere is heaven and so we know heaven has to
00:26:20.240have even heaven now before the new heavens and the new earth heaven as it currently is has some
00:26:25.720physical element to it to where our physical resurrected lord is able to be there and and
00:26:31.720and that makes room in my mind for physical angels being there um what do you think about that
00:26:38.620argument no i think that's great and i i look at um first corinthians 15 and uh beginning around
00:26:44.76042 43 it talks about how there's the the body is so many natural body it's raised a spiritual body
00:26:50.460and people look at that and they think oh this is a so you're so it is spiritual no no it's a
00:26:56.140body that is dominated by the spirit rather than a body that's dominated by the flesh um it's so
00:27:02.140even if you look into the greek on that that is that bears that out and i've got that in the book
00:27:06.620But then he goes on. He says the first man is from earth made of dust. The second man is from heaven. And we're going to be like the one from heaven. We're going to be like Jesus was when we are glorified, when we are transformed. And as he just said, he had a physical body that was different than what it was before. He could not die again.
00:27:26.060um it's he seemed to have had super certain abilities that are not normal like he said he
00:27:32.740whether he walked through a door or not i'm not sure exactly how he got there but somehow he
00:27:37.240appeared in their midst when the door was locked so whether he just walks right through it or
00:27:40.520said i'm going to teleport right there i'm not sure right yeah yeah i don't know but um that's
00:27:46.560different than what we can do yeah yes he's god but he wasn't doing those things prior to that
00:27:52.480Right. Right. Yeah. Great point. So what we've been arguing so far, and we'll move on to another
00:27:58.160topic, but there's one more piece on this subject that I'd love to address. But what we're arguing
00:28:03.100so far is that we think, this one we probably feel a little bit less strongly about, but fairly
00:28:08.760strong that angels were male. And then second point that we feel probably a little bit stronger
00:28:13.320about is that angels certainly are spirit and physical. They have bodies. So we think they
00:28:17.940they definitely have bodies and probably male bodies and perhaps exclusively male bodies and
00:28:24.980that those angels as creatures created in the image of God like man are different but not so
00:28:30.440different from us that male physical angels could not mate with female physical humans and they
00:28:38.680don't do that in heaven but it doesn't mean that they can't do that especially if they're
00:28:43.540rebelling against God's will on earth. So none of that is crazy. And to say that Jesus just
00:28:48.100is the TKO knockout punch for the fallen angel view is just bad exegesis. The Sethite view might
00:28:55.420be right, but not from that argument. That doesn't get you the Sethite view. You're going to have to
00:28:59.440do better than that. And so the last thing that I want to say, though, I'm just thinking of one
00:29:03.860more objection that our listeners might have. And I know it's a genuine question for me. Well,
00:29:08.660what about other biblical texts that don't just talk about angels visiting? Because when there's
00:29:13.000an angelic visitation on earth, they do appear human, like Gabriel with Mary. But what about
00:29:20.240other biblical texts, like Revelation talking about four living creatures covered in eyes with
00:29:27.200six wings and one the head of an ox and the head of a lion, or Ezekiel, like wheels? What would you
00:29:35.680say about that? Yeah, I think what that shows us, other than maybe John and Ezekiel
00:29:42.440struggled to describe what they were seeing because when you read ezekiel's interpretation
00:29:47.740or explanation it's really hard to wrap my mind around what he is actually describing um but
00:29:54.760yeah they're they're um i mean i understand the passage in terms of he's seeing god's throne and
00:30:01.860these uh cherubim that are there they seem to be you know guardians of god's throne in some
00:30:07.520sense and so i get that but in terms of how he's describing it it's strange but we have to
00:30:13.620understand that that's not saying every single angelic being looks just like that uh we know
00:30:18.580the ones in isaiah 6 they have six wings they cover their feet with two of them they cover
00:30:22.420their eyes with two of them and they uh they fly with two of them and you know all day and night
00:30:28.720they're proclaiming holy holy holy and um so they have they seem to have a unique role to play and
00:30:36.280there are other angelic spirits that were or angelic beings that were given the task of
00:30:44.100governing certain areas after especially at babel we see that in deuteronomy 32 8 and then that's
00:30:51.600talked about elsewhere we covered that in one of the other episodes as well when we're talking about
00:30:55.280the divine council so angels have different roles or different abilities there are different kinds
00:31:00.600whether you're talking about seraphim and cherubim and perhaps the B'nai Elohim,
00:31:06.520which is the sons of God that we've been talking about.
00:31:10.100So we shouldn't just assume all angelic life is exactly like it,
00:31:15.420just one type of thing, that God created diversity of life here on planet Earth.
00:31:22.740And I think there's a diversity of life in heaven with him.
00:31:28.520so what one option is is it could be the ezekiel text or the revelation for you know text uh could
00:31:34.260could be um one it could be a a you know more of a metaphorical uh metaphorical symbolic uh writing
00:31:44.200and then number two even if it is literal that's that's entirely possible uh but even if it is
00:31:50.340literal this is not a description of every type of angel in heaven um and and it seems like if
00:31:57.760If anything, we don't know exactly, but if I had to guess, it seems like if it is literal, it would be a description of a minority type of angel in heaven.
00:32:07.240Like there's four, not four million, but four living creatures covered in ice.
00:32:12.760Like it's a unique and even higher in terms of, I believe that there's different types of angels and a hierarchy, you know, in heaven.
00:32:24.420Now, maybe this is more with the evil spiritual force, but you have principalities and powers and thrones and dominions. These are spiritual forces, and there is ranking. Now, I don't know if we can have a completely fleshed out view of that, because I don't think the Bible gives us enough detail to do that, but to the point that we can say, yeah, there is some sort of hierarchy and difference in not just rank, but ability.
00:32:49.780right um so yeah so it one uh explanation is ezekiel and revelation could be metaphorical
00:32:56.760symbolical language the the second explanation is even if it is exactly literal literal a physical
00:33:01.960description um then okay great then some angels look really weird but that doesn't mean all angels
00:33:08.380look really weird and it seems if anything you could you could buy by uh maybe not explicit
00:33:14.400argumentation but implicit you you could say that it seems like at least some angels if not the
00:33:18.820majority of angels don't look weird. And those that God commissions to have earthly visitations,
00:33:27.200they look a lot like us and we are made just a little lower than them. And they are physical
00:33:31.720and they're not merely spiritual. They're spirit and body just as we're spirit and body, both made
00:33:35.340in the image of God, looking very similar in many regards. And if they're in rebellion against God's
00:33:41.180will because they've fallen to earth, then absolutely plausible that angels could procreate
00:33:47.800with, um, with female human beings. That's, it's, uh, it, we could be wrong. We're not omniscient,
00:33:54.040but, um, to say that that view is crazy, um, is, um, I just think you're, you know,
00:34:01.240you can't back that up. You can, you can say you think it's wrong, but it is, I think it's
00:34:05.120certainly a permissible, plausible, reasonable interpretation of scripture.
00:34:10.420Yeah, I would agree. And if I can, um, just finish up one other point we were talking about a few
00:34:14.680moments ago with the in this eternal state that we're going to have physical bodies in a physical
00:34:19.120world that is so foreign to like the modern pop cultural view of of heaven of the eternal of our
00:34:28.620afterlife um we so many people think that we're just going to become spirits and stand you know
00:34:34.980sing songs 24 7 around the throne and you know for a lot of people that's disheartening because
00:34:40.020it seems like that wouldn't that be really boring i don't know that this is really what i'm
00:34:44.600looking forward to. And that doesn't sound exciting. Well, that's not what it's going to be.
00:34:48.960It's so much more than that. And we're going to have, like I mentioned, physical bodies in a
00:34:55.360physical world where there is no more curse, no more sorrow, no more tears. And we get to enjoy
00:35:00.140that for eternity in God's presence. So it'll be far better than we can imagine. So I just,
00:35:07.160I think it's important for people to think rightly about what our future holds and that
00:35:13.400this topic plays right into that. But I guess another objection I hear to what we've been
00:35:18.600talking about, and this will shift the gears a little bit, is, Joel, how dare we say that
00:35:23.280angels can create life, right? And you've probably heard that. And well, if that's your objection,
00:35:31.680good. I'm glad you're thinking that because we don't want to sit here and say, yes, angels are
00:35:35.140just as powerful as God. That's not at all what we're saying. They are created beings.
00:35:38.480um but look in the mirror and if you have children ask yourself this question did you create life
00:35:46.160you procreated and that's what we're talking about here we're not talking about creating
00:35:52.240life from scratch from nothing we're talking about procreation um but even before you go
00:35:57.720too far down that road people say well but they had to create a body in order to be able to do
00:36:01.360no remember we've already talked about how we think they have bodies but um look back at exodus
00:36:07.320chapter 7, and this is the passage that everybody's familiar with, with Moses and Aaron coming before
00:36:12.240Pharaoh, and Aaron throws down his rod, and it becomes a serpent. And then it says this, it says
00:36:17.580that Pharaoh called his wise men and sorcerers, so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like
00:36:24.000manner with their enchantments, or with their dark arts, through their occult abilities. Every man
00:36:29.860threw down his rod, and they became serpents. They did the same thing that Aaron, that God did to0.60
00:36:36.700aaron's staff now i'm not saying that every single fallen angel or evil spirit can do the exact same
00:36:43.800thing i'm not saying they can do that whenever they want but for for his purposes at this point
00:36:49.440god allowed them to do that they had the ability to do that and of course we know what happened
00:36:53.920aaron's rod swallowed theirs up showing that the god of israel yahweh is still more powerful than
00:36:59.640them no matter how impressive that feat was right but but they transformed sticks rods into
00:37:07.640serpents so i think we we have to be careful and you were i think you were talking about earlier
00:37:13.840that we um almost like a gnostic view we it's it's weird we we over spiritualize and at the
00:37:23.300same time under spiritualize yeah it's it's like christians today modern evangelicals especially i
00:37:29.220I I've been thinking about this a lot lately lately I think on one hand we've adopted way
00:37:34.040too much of Darwin uh so on one hand we're like we're um we're we've been disenchanted
00:37:40.000since I think since the enlightenment which the enlightenment you know I think was really the
00:37:45.500beginning of of the dark ages of secular humanism and then you know and the the dark so-called dark
00:37:51.100ages I think actually weren't quite as dark as our modern historians try to make them out to be
00:37:56.380when people actually still believed in God, or even if they weren't Christian, they believed in
00:38:00.580God's pagans. G.K. Chesterton talks about, you know, paganism is, and C.S. Lewis says the same
00:38:06.140thing. The step from paganism to Christianity is a smaller step than the step from Darwinian
00:38:12.220secular humanism. You know, when the world has completely lost its enchantment and the world is
00:38:17.280just material, you're just a raw materialist. So on the one hand, I think Christians have bought1.00
00:38:21.680that narrative of, you know, modern post-modernism and secular humanism that, um, on one hand we've
00:38:28.020under spiritualized and we're materialist. The world is just stuff. On the other hand, uh, it's
00:38:33.140weird. I don't know how we do it, but, uh, we simultaneously over spiritualize. So anything we
00:38:37.880read in the Bible, um, we, we think it's fantastical and spiritual, but then we think
00:38:43.320that we live in this world that's entirely material and, and physical. And, and so then
00:38:48.100what we do is we just we we create this massive chasm between heaven and earth the the you know
00:38:54.200what god does this here and and then what happens here and what happens here all can be explained by
00:38:59.440uh newton and this and that you know and there's nothing supernatural at all and then over there
00:39:03.880it's it's there's nothing physical at all it's all spiritual 17th dimension and and i think that's
00:39:09.020the framework that that moderns uh westerners uh have even among christians that makes the
00:39:17.020procreation between angels and women seemed preposterous um but the ancients didn't think
00:39:22.340like that that's a fairly modern view you know that didn't happen until you know at a certain
00:39:28.180point in church history not it didn't happen for what 400 years for 400 years nobody even thought
00:39:33.240the sethite view wasn't it augustine that was the first augustine was the one who popularized it
00:39:38.300you know and gotcha a couple generations before him there are a few people who held it but yeah
00:39:42.840he popularized it and then that dominated from then on.
00:39:45.780And then Calvin doesn't even have to make an argument.
00:40:22.580But another passage that I think is important to think about, and I think you and I would probably interpret who this is talking about differently or how, what's being referred to.
00:40:30.860But in 2 Thessalonians 2, 9, it's talking about the lawless one.
00:40:34.240You know, a lot of times, like dispensational, premillennial, pre-tribency, this is like the Antichrist.
00:40:40.600look what it says about this the lawless one whoever or whatever that might be the coming
00:40:46.000of the lawless one is according to the working of satan with all power signs and lying wonder
00:40:51.360so how much ability how much power does satan have or some of these evil
00:40:59.280spiritual beings it says here all power signs and lying wonder and say fake power and fake signs
00:41:08.000it's he's deceiving people with these real things is what it's describing so that they do have
00:41:14.880tremendous ability and i think it's it's dangerous for us to underestimate them but at the same time
00:41:19.680i think it's people overestimate them as well that you know like say they some people think
00:41:25.060satan's omnipresent that he's he's tempting them right now and all that a lot of people think he's
00:41:30.100omniscient they think satan can read your thoughts yeah you know i mean i think satan is better than
00:41:37.080like if a human humans are not omniscient we can't read thoughts but if if the best
00:41:41.600human interrogator can pick up on you know mannerisms and social cues and and be in a
00:41:47.520room with someone without them saying and get really close and just watching them into the
00:41:51.260so i think you know satan is like you know um you know exponentially uh more talented and
00:41:59.020perceptive like he's he's nothing to be trifled with he satan is greater than you he's not greater
00:42:04.200than God, but he, you know, greater is he that is in you, not you, but he that is in you than
00:42:08.580he who is in the world. Um, but so, but, but if it's just us apart from God, Satan is, is not our
00:42:13.860peer. He is, he is, um, vastly superior to us, but not infinite. And so, uh, I think Satan, um, is
00:42:19.600very, very perceptive and very good at, at, um, at, um, concluding and, and deriving, um, uh,
00:42:27.660deliberating our, our thoughts and, and, and knowing our temptations and those kinds of things.
00:42:32.180but he some people think like if i just think a thought in my mind they attribute
00:42:37.080attributes that are exclusive to god to satan satan is not an equal to god all right that's
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00:45:13.100You look at the beginning of Job, he's able to call down fire from heaven, whether that's lightning or actual fire.
00:45:18.320So he's able to do certain things, but again, it's only when God permits it.
00:45:22.840Because if you think of Elijah and the prophets of Baal, you know, when they're having this competition about lighting the altar on fire.
00:45:29.900Well, according to the book of Job, Satan is capable of doing it.
00:45:33.760So if he's there, if he's one of the rebels who are there behind the prophets of Baal, he can't do it that day because God's not allowing him to do it that day.
00:45:43.460But he seems to be capable of that sometimes.
00:45:46.180So, yeah, my point is we shouldn't just automatically assume we know the abilities or capabilities of angels when the Bible tells us a fair amount of some things that they can do that are far beyond our ability.
00:46:00.620But at the same time, and what you said is exactly right, greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.
00:46:05.980So we don't need to fear them, but we should have a healthy respect for them.
00:46:12.100um going back one more thing and then and then i'll just uh you you i'll let you steer the
00:46:17.200conversation for where you want to go next but um with the tower of babel and in terms of princes
00:46:22.140and principalities principalities i i you know understand that as uh regions areas and then
00:46:28.100princes being you know uh fallen angels that were um set up over um you know that had dominion over
00:46:35.280certain principalities and regions um with that i and this is just another genuine question that i i
00:46:41.380I don't know the answer, um, would, I certainly see that being as like regions being indicative
00:46:46.300of nations and peoples and things like that.
00:46:48.480Um, but, uh, would there be, or possibly be, uh, fallen angels over the realm of the ocean
00:46:57.440that might like a fill it, you know, Philistines that that's where, you know, giants ended up
00:47:02.780like Goliath and his brothers, you know, and we know that, uh, Joshua killed a lot of them.
00:47:06.760The ones that, that, um, got away, went to Gath and, you know, Goliath is from Gath or,
00:47:10.480you know and then gaza and some other places and then and then later on you know in the time of
00:47:14.820david that you have the philistines they have giants uh you know descendants from the nephilim
00:47:19.240but then also like one of their they've got their polytheists but one of their chief gods is a fish
00:47:25.120god dagon you know and so and then i'm thinking about that and then i'm thinking about the greeks
00:47:30.080and and maybe it's the same thing but just the greeks have a different name for them a different
00:47:33.640conception you know but like um you know or the romans and like uh poseidon and and i'm wondering
00:47:38.060Could one of these kind of Elohim, you know, sons of God, have not just a realm over land and a people group, a nation, but over the ocean or part of the ocean or something?
00:47:56.680I mean, Adam was given dominion over the rule over the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, you know, and the beasts of the earth, obviously.
00:48:05.100So mankind was supposed to rule this earth as God's vice-regioner, and yet Adam, in a sense, yielded that dominion when he rebelled, when he sinned.0.70
00:48:17.800And then what we see at the Babel event, man rebels again, and God puts them under the subjection of these other entities.
00:48:25.320So if the original dominion mandate included the fish of the sea, which it does, then, yeah, I don't know why they wouldn't also have that as well.0.79
00:48:39.700And then going back to what you said earlier, you said, you know, the ability to call fire out of heaven, but like any creature, not just angels, but any creature, only underneath the banner of the sovereignty of God, what he allows.
00:48:51.220And so not able to call down fire on that particular day,
00:48:53.420the showdown between the prophets of Baal and Elijah,
00:49:14.440And so he has the supreme authority over the created order.
00:49:17.940But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no other creature that he's given also that ability.
00:49:25.200And so I'm thinking of when, just to explicitly state the example, it's when God gives permission to Satan to torment Job, but before he has authority to afflict his body.
00:49:35.340And then later on, he can afflict his body, but he can't kill him.
00:49:38.020But in the first phase of torment, you can do anything to him, but you can't hurt his physical person.
00:49:42.920And one of the things that he does is he kills all of Job's children by sending a great wind.
00:49:50.460It seems as though he has power and control over the wind to cause the house where Job's children are to collapse on them and kill them.
00:49:58.100And so back to my Poseidon theory, is it possible that, you know, fallen angels could have dominion over the sea, and then within that dominion over the sea, even a measure of control in what God may allow over wind and waves?
00:50:16.560Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable.
00:50:18.400Yeah, Job 119 is the verse that you're citing, that suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house.
00:50:24.600And yeah, so I think that's entirely reasonable.
00:50:28.100and consistent with what we see in scripture.
00:58:26.660I think we've all seen it before on Prince's Bride, right?
00:58:29.340the six-fingered man count rugan um but it's just a it's something that happens it's just
00:58:34.880a genetic duplication and it's usually like the the ring finger gets duplicated so you have two
00:58:39.540of those and yeah but it could be one of the other fingers as well so yeah giants didn't have to be
00:58:45.060like that same thing sort of like with the solomon island giants people ask about that
00:58:49.220solomon islands are pretty remote kind of in between uh australia and fiji a little bit north
00:58:54.800of that and there are reports of these giants living in caves in the inner parts of the island
00:59:00.840and nobody goes there because they disappear and or they get eaten but again i'm not opposed to the
00:59:08.400idea that there could still be some remnants of giants existing because i think giants did exist
00:59:12.680on this earth and i think the bible describes that but in this day and age when we have cell
00:59:17.480phones and so many people no matter which country whether your first world second world third world
00:59:21.840So many people have cell phones with cameras. Somebody somewhere at some time or with a drone could get pretty good footage if these, I think, could get good footage if these people are still around.
00:59:34.580So until I have some hard evidence of that rather than just anecdotal evidence on the Internet, I'm not going to base my arguments on this at all.
00:59:47.660I'd rather just see what the Bible says. And if it says there were giants, OK, there were giants.
00:59:51.840Right. Yeah, that's our position. What we're convicted of is that there were giants. What I'm open to is that there might still be giants. But my argument is not that there were giants, and that's what the Bible says, because I can show you giants today. No, my argument is there were giants, because the Bible says there were giants.
01:13:25.620So I'll be the guy who tries to think of a creative way to get to a 40 foot tall giant, because it just sounds awesome. And I think it's possible, but you'd be the guy who does what you do.
01:13:34.140I think both are needed. And I appreciate those kind words. I really do about me, about the book. But sometimes we do, because we can be too careful. Sometimes we don't think outside the box enough to, so it is helpful to have people get very creative and think, I wonder if this, and then one day, and I think Michael Heiser was good at this, but, you know, within the academic community,
01:13:54.940here's a guy who's super smart saying things that most academics didn't want to touch with
01:13:59.340a 10 foot pole and i'm not saying that he was right all the time but he was he was talking
01:14:03.260about some of the weird things that most people well i don't want to talk about that well people
01:14:07.620are a lot of people are super curious about this and a lot of unbelievers are very curious believers
01:14:12.160are curious why would we not want to um go where they are and try to talk about the things they're
01:14:18.140talking about understand their world their worldview and somehow some way connect them
01:14:23.780to the gospel and help them see the truth. Amen. And especially in our day and age where I really
01:14:28.380think like, sure, technology continues to develop and improve and all these kinds of things. Yet at
01:14:34.200the same time, though, in terms of worldviews, it is becoming increasingly evident and blatantly
01:14:40.820obvious to even unbelievers that secular humanism is, that dog won't hunt. It's not holding up.
01:14:49.420I think in some ways the world is being re-enchanted. The dark enchantment of materialism is starting to fade. We're starting to see that it doesn't work. It's not true that Darwin was a hack and always was.
01:15:06.400And so as the world is becoming more enchanted, I think, that I see, I don't know about you, but I see like a phenomenon happening right now, a trend of a exponentially growing infatuation and interest in the supernatural.
01:15:20.500And if Christians, out of some desire to be sophisticated and buttoned up in ivory tower, if out of a desire to impress the secular humanist, the scientist who always picked on us, I feel like some creation guys are still trying to get the approval of that atheist scientist.
01:15:41.460You're never going to get it. They think you're stupid. Who cares? But if we keep trying to stand1.00
01:15:45.580in that space and be legitimate, legitimate, incredible in the secular humanism space,
01:15:51.080meanwhile, the culture is realizing that that space isn't worth listening to and they're getting
01:15:56.460enchanted. But by the time they get enchanted, we've successfully moved Christianity over to
01:16:03.660this very reasonable, materialistic, natural position. And we've taken all the enchantment0.98
01:16:10.260out of Christianity, but the people actually want enchanted worldviews again, then the only0.73
01:16:15.880options they'll have available to them will be occults, the occult and paganism. And I want to0.90
01:16:22.180say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Christianity, yeah, I'm a Christian. I believe in dragons. I believe
01:16:27.760in giants. I believe in fallen angels. I believe in, I personally, I believe that there were
01:16:34.660unicorns. Sirens is in the King James Version. And I think there's some creative things to do
01:16:39.660with that. And in the wilderness, I don't think it was just snakes, seraphs, and fire. I think
01:16:45.740dragons were maybe biting people. And you can't get any more fantastical than this magical world
01:16:52.840that God made. Yeah. And, you know, the world may call us foolish, but if the Lord says,
01:16:59.920well done, good and faithful servant, that's really what matters. And, you know, Paul talked
01:17:02.920about in 1 Corinthians 4 that he said, we are fools for Christ's sake. Okay, well, if the world
01:17:08.120thinks i'm a fool for believing in the risen lord and savior and then what his word said so be it
01:17:12.560i'm a fool i don't i don't care because i just want to hear him say well done good and faithful
01:17:16.700servant and um so i appreciate having the opportunity to talk about this and i appreciate
01:17:21.880your um to have me on and and discussing these and making me think through some of these things
01:17:27.880that in a maybe the more speculative that i haven't necessarily gone down it's fun to talk
01:17:33.520about it and i guess just to speak to the maybe the listeners real quickly just um dig in dive
01:17:39.640into god's word and hold that up as the authority um and this is not something that we have to split
01:17:45.520the church on you know i see those kind of comments too that uh what a heretic you know
01:17:50.980because of a different view on the fallen angel i on this i come on it could be wrong but that's
01:17:56.880not heresy yeah so well tim thank you so much it's an honor um i'll let you go and i hope that
01:18:04.180our listeners have enjoyed all right joel thanks so much for having me god bless you god bless