The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW ｜ The 3 Basic Beliefs Of All Christian Nationalists with AD Robles

00:00:00.000 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:00:03.820 Right Response Ministries. In this episode, I'm welcoming one of my good friends. We've had him

00:00:08.480 48 times, something like that. Who's counting? We've lost count at this point. A.D. Robles.

00:00:14.440 Coming on the show, we're going to talk about Christian nationalism, but we're doing it

00:00:17.560 different. This is the whole goal of this episode is we want to say, bring it all down to the lowest 1.00

00:00:23.960 common denominator. What do you actually have to believe to be a Christian nationalist?

00:00:29.720 We've boiled it down to three things.

00:00:31.940 I think it's incredibly helpful to say, look, this is what all, there's a lot of fuss, a

00:00:35.640 lot of debate, a lot of disagreements, but if you narrow it all in, hone it in, there's

00:00:40.460 really three things that make the difference in I'm a Christian nationalist or I'm not.

00:00:46.400 So if you're interested in that conversation, tune in now.

00:00:50.720 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:00:53.980 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:59.720 so let's talk about some of the basics just to to add some specificity i've been thinking about it

00:01:07.160 and and i want to see if you agree with these and maybe if you could hear it yeah man you've got

00:01:12.080 you've got stuff coming up you've got conference gigs coming up and so you're you're knee deep in

00:01:16.240 this stuff right yeah i'm in i'm in the belly of the beast thinking about it um i i came up with

00:01:20.400 at least three things so it real simple but uh three you know if if we're going down to the

00:01:25.820 lowest common denominator of, okay, but what is Christian nationalism? Or what does it mean to be

00:01:30.220 a Christian nationalist? What do you, what do you, what do Christian nationalists believe, right?

00:01:34.540 Because you just said there's different theological conceptions, there's the theonomy,

00:01:38.020 post-mill guys, but then there's these classic two kingdom, you know, all-mill guys, and then

00:01:42.420 there's, you know, Baptists, and there's, and then there's Pato's, you know, you know, Presbyterian,

00:01:48.020 Pato-Baptist, and so what, you know, but what would they share in common? What's the, you know,

00:01:52.220 the lowest common denominator. And I came up with three ideas. So one would be a belief that we are

00:01:58.940 called to work towards distinctly explicit Christian nations and that it could happen.

00:02:07.160 So within the realm of eschatology, whether you are a historic pre-mill guy or an all-mill guy

00:02:15.200 or a post-mill guy, I think what's required is believing that even if you're, let's work with

00:02:22.800 pre-mill for a moment, even if you're a historic pre-mill guy, you still are at least holding to

00:02:31.260 the possibility that Jesus may tarry for another 50 years, 100 years, or even 500 years. You're

00:02:37.040 probably not going to say, well, it could be 50,000 years. That might be more of your post-mill

00:02:41.660 guys you know like doug wilson saying you know we're still in the early church you know and i

00:02:45.660 would lean towards that position um but still even from a historic pre-mail position um it it's

00:02:53.260 entirely possible that jesus it could still be a multiple generations before the return of christ

00:02:59.400 and so believing one that we probably or maybe not even probably but we at least could still have

00:03:05.560 some time here on earth and that we should, so could have time, should work towards nations

00:03:11.960 being Christian in the meantime, during that time. And then lastly, that it actually could work.

00:03:19.280 That even if you think things will ultimately get worse, there is still, if you think that

00:03:23.820 the ultimate trajectory is down, that things will degrade further and further until the return of

00:03:28.760 Christ. Even if that's your view, even the trajectory downward guy still usually would

00:03:37.780 hold to the possibility that it's not straight down. There could be some spikes along the way

00:03:42.520 and that these spikes are worth fighting for because it might be a 40-year spike. And well,

00:03:47.580 who does that affect? My kids. That's who it affects. If the next 40 years could be good,

00:03:54.180 well, my goodness, I'll give my life for that just so that my kids could own a home and get married

00:04:00.700 and have a somewhat normal life like I did. And so I think that's one of them. One common

00:04:08.500 denominator is not that you must be post-mill or all-mill or pre-mill. I think you could be

00:04:14.720 any of those three positions, but you're believing that Jesus could tarry, that nations should,

00:04:22.120 that Christians should be involved in the political affairs of a nation,

00:04:25.820 working towards the politics being Christianized,

00:04:29.700 and that you could be successful in that,

00:04:33.520 that it's actually worth the effort, one, to be obedient to God,

00:04:37.560 but two, not just obedience, not just we're going to go down swinging

00:04:41.340 because that's what God commanded,

00:04:42.620 but there's no way our swinging will be successful.

00:04:45.020 No, I think the Christian nationalists, 0.76

00:04:47.080 even the pre-male Christian nationalists,

00:04:49.240 would say it's not just that we're being obedient,

00:04:52.120 um, but, but that our obedience is not, uh, in vain, that it actually could, if God would be

00:04:58.180 gracious and kind, it could be effective. Even if it's short lived, it could be effective. So I

00:05:03.440 think that's one. I think a second one is, um, the two tables of the law. So I, I think that that's

00:05:09.620 a big one. There's a lot of guys, a lot of, a lot of faithful guys in many regards, they're faithful.

00:05:13.700 We would strongly disagree on this point, but, um, by and large, they're faithful guys and

00:05:18.740 they would say Christians should be involved in politics and Christians should be working towards

00:05:23.680 you know a Christian nation you know I'm a Christian in government but they don't believe

00:05:31.980 that you should have a Christian government that's the difference so Christians in government

00:05:35.660 Christians influencing government versus a distinctly Christian government and if you ask

00:05:40.740 well what's the difference what's the difference between Christians influencing government because

00:05:45.040 see point a what if it works right so what if the christian influence on government is successful

00:05:49.920 um then then how would that be different than christian government and this is always i think

00:05:55.760 what it comes down to is um christians influencing government if they're successful what it looks like

00:06:02.540 is the second table of the law uh being righteously legislated according according to the word of god

00:06:08.100 but not the first and just for the listener if you're not familiar with that language first and

00:06:12.260 second table, we're talking about the Decalogue, Exodus chapter 20, the Ten Commandments. We have

00:06:17.060 two primary tables of the law. The first table is the first four of the Ten Commandments. Love

00:06:23.520 the Lord your God, right? So have no other gods before me, no idolatry. Do not make any graven

00:06:29.360 images. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. That's the third commandment. And then remember

00:06:34.100 the Sabbath day and keep it holy. So first table laws being legislated by a Christian government 0.99

00:06:40.180 in a nation, uh, that would be examples like blue laws, uh, being a Sabbath laws, which we've had

00:06:46.740 in America in our history. And you still have hangover blue laws on the books and places like

00:06:52.120 where I am in Texas, like liquor stores, New York city even has them. There you go. Yeah. Like liquor

00:06:56.780 stores in Texas don't open on, on the Lord's day until I think it's noon or something. It's,

00:07:01.600 it's basically after church. I'm in a smaller town, Georgetown. Um, and there's a lot of

00:07:06.420 restaurants that don't open until noon because the morning and every other day of the week,

00:07:11.060 it's not like they just do that, you know, seven days a week. It's distinctly on the Lord's day

00:07:14.700 because in the morning you go to church. And so, so blue laws is, that's not a crazy thing. It's

00:07:20.900 not like some hypothetical that's never taken place. And then another example would be blasphemy 0.71

00:07:25.660 laws. Public blasphemy would be in a Christian nation that would be actually a crime, not just 1.00

00:07:33.700 a sin. It's always a sin. But the distinction between sins and crimes. And so I think the guys 1.00

00:07:39.180 who want to be faithful Christians in government, they want to say that a breach of any of the Ten

00:07:44.580 Commandments is a sin. But the guys who are working distinctly for a Christian government,

00:07:48.600 not just Christians in government, but Christian government, they're going to say, no, it's the

00:07:52.460 first and the second table. And that gets back to what we were saying earlier about the civil

00:07:57.480 magistrate orienting the citizens and the culture and society in such a way that lends towards not

00:08:02.980 just their temporal earthly good, but their heavenly good. Again, the civil magistrate

00:08:08.000 enforcing blasphemy laws or blue law, Sabbath laws, is not going to convert anyone's heart.

00:08:14.340 That's not what we're saying. And I think that was one of the counter arguments that at this

00:08:18.200 point has been thoroughly debunked. And so people are like, oh, they're not saying that. We're not

00:08:22.340 saying that the civil magistrate by the power of the sword enforcing the first table, meaning the

00:08:28.140 first four of the Ten Commandments is going to cause people to be born again. That's not what

00:08:34.180 we're saying. But we are saying that a nation having Sabbath laws where businesses and certain

00:08:41.200 things are shut down on the Lord's Day and where certain blasphemies against Christ, against the

00:08:47.740 trying God are not permitted, that that does create a more conducive environment. It doesn't

00:08:53.360 save people, but it creates a more conducive environment with less perversions and less

00:08:58.360 distractions that might cause someone to be in the right place at the right time to hear the

00:09:05.280 preaching of the gospel and not to be constantly publicly confronted by idolatry and by blasphemy

00:09:13.240 and by worldly vain distractions on the Sabbath, these kinds of things. So I think one is you could

00:09:20.440 be any eschatology, but there's a hopefulness. There's this sense of Jesus might tarry,

00:09:26.640 we should get to work in the meantime, and our work has not been destined by God to be vain.

00:09:31.840 It could be successful, even if only for a moment. That's one. Number two, both tables of the law,

00:09:37.400 not just the civil magistrate legislating the second table of the law, things like do not

00:09:42.420 murder, do not commit adultery, but also the first table of the law, that public forms of

00:09:49.560 idolatry would not only be a sin, but a crime that, that, that again, the public thing, that's

00:09:55.220 the, that's the key factor. So we're not talking about having the secret police that breaks into

00:10:00.260 people's homes to see if they have a shrine in their closet to a false God so that you can

00:10:05.300 imprison them. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about it's in your face.

00:10:10.180 It's public. We're talking about the sisters of perpetual indulgence, which is an actual thing

00:10:14.740 where a guy pretends to be Jesus with fake blood on him on a fake cross, and a bunch of nuns are

00:10:21.820 gyrating and twerking in front of him. Yeah, you go to jail. I know this might shock you, 0.82

00:10:26.320 but apparently at least one of them is a known pedophile. Oh, shocking. Wow. I've never would 0.80

00:10:32.080 have been able to connect those dots. Thank you. But yeah, so we're saying, yeah, that should be

00:10:36.360 illegal. That should be a crime. And so anyway, so I think that's the second one. So the first

00:10:42.260 one is a hopefulness, general hopefulness, regardless of your eschatology, we should work

00:10:46.480 and our work could work. Second is not only second table of law, but first table of the law. And that

00:10:53.800 really comes, the guys who are just, I want to be a faithful Christian witness in government,

00:10:57.740 in politics, but we should not be legislating the first table of law. I think that's another

00:11:03.160 distinction between the Christian nationalists and other guys who aren't, is they still at some

00:11:09.460 level, I think have bought into the myth of neutrality. So, so they, uh, because they would

00:11:13.740 never say, um, we should, you know, I, I hope that everything becomes Muslim or I hope everything

00:11:18.820 becomes Buddhist or I hope like, no, they're saying it shouldn't be any of those things.

00:11:22.380 So you, you shouldn't have the Satan statue in the, um, you know, in the, uh, what, what was it?

00:11:27.800 Iowa or Ohio? I think it was Iowa, uh, state capital, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So you shouldn't

00:11:33.700 have the state, the Satan shrine. Um, but you also shouldn't have a Jesus shrine. Um, I think

00:11:39.180 those guys are still operating under it and and i would just say guys you you've got to wake up um

00:11:44.840 you we are long past neutrality that that that play of well in the public square things are going

00:11:52.480 to be neutral surely um surely you you have detected that that was always a joke what what

00:11:59.340 is wokeism and left of leftism and dei and this and that and the other if not religious it is a

00:12:06.180 religion. So a religion is always going to fill the void. If you push Christianity back into the

00:12:14.240 closet out of the public square and say, this is a private affair, then it doesn't stay empty. 0.84

00:12:21.060 It gets filled. The public square gets filled with something else, some other kind of religion.

00:12:25.960 And this momentary appearance, that's all it was, was the optic, this momentary appearance of

00:12:32.800 neutrality in our nation uh was in my assessment was not because classical liberalism actually

00:12:39.020 worked it's not because neutrality is a real thing we just we just need to get back and achieve it

00:12:43.980 again it's all it was was it was the cruise liner of chrysidom going out from port out to sea and

00:12:51.960 then the cruise liner of paganism coming in to replace it but for a moment these two ships were

00:12:58.000 passing, you know, one had not yet docked, a.k.a. paganism, and the other had left the dock.

00:13:03.760 And my point is classical liberalism, I think it only appeared to work temporarily because it was

00:13:09.840 borrowing, you know, the capital of Christendom. And once Christendom was further eroded and we

00:13:15.380 further, you know, as a society pushed back on our Christian, you know, principles and founding

00:13:20.260 and all these things, lo and behold, what did we find? Well, we stayed neutral. No, we didn't.

00:13:24.860 we became completely religious, utterly religious. It just was a different religion.

00:13:32.040 And so I think that's a big one is viewing that. So the general hopefulness, regardless

00:13:38.060 of your eschatology, we should get to work and our work could actually be successful.

00:13:41.820 Both tables of the law and realizing that neutrality is a myth, if you don't legislate

00:13:46.900 the first table of the law, there will be a first table of sorts, still legislated,

00:13:52.760 but it'll be for another religion instead of yours. It won't be neutral. It won't remain

00:13:57.360 empty. And then the last one, I can't think of it. So I'm just going to let you respond to those

00:14:01.220 and I'll try to remember. Hey, that's good. That's good. Well, yeah, man, there's a lot there. I

00:14:08.000 think, so the first one about Christian nations, you know, we should be working towards Christian

00:14:14.940 nations and that it could actually happen. I think, you know, that one resonates with so many

00:14:20.580 people you know what i mean i you know and i think that there's there's some eggheads out there that

00:14:25.220 are trying to make this weird argument where it's somehow bad to have a christian nation

00:14:29.700 and it's you know distraction from the gospel whatever whatever it is that they say um but but

00:14:35.520 but that's a that is a losing argument because every regular joe christian remembers so many

00:14:44.580 of their teachers without even blinking some of the guys that are that are against christian

00:14:49.680 nationalism now used to talk like this, but they remembered when they learned from the Proverbs

00:14:54.520 that righteousness exalts a nation and sin is a reproach to any people. And they applied that 0.74

00:15:00.980 to nations today, you know, and they would point out the evil in the United States and

00:15:07.220 they would warn against the judgment of God against that evil because they knew that righteousness

00:15:13.060 exalts a nation and sin is a reproach to any people. It's a very simple concept. It comes

00:15:18.820 right out of the Proverbs. It preaches well, and it's true. It's true. And that's the point.

00:15:25.460 And so eschatology makes no freaking difference. This is why you had guys like Jerry Falwell,

00:15:31.460 who would preach the same kind of stuff. He didn't want the nations to be judged. And he thought that

00:15:36.260 his effort could actually do something that could actually help. It could help the nation be

00:15:42.680 righteous. And I can't remember how many songs I heard when I was a kid from like Carmen and stuff

00:15:47.400 like that about, you know, the nation, you know, you know, you know, finding righteousness and not

00:15:52.660 being judged by God and being blessed by God and all these kinds of things. This is the thing. And

00:15:56.540 so when people hear that, you know, no, no, we should be a Christian nation and we should work

00:16:03.620 towards that end. And whether or not we're able to do it in the here and now, we should be setting

00:16:08.740 our kids up or our grandkids up. And like, we should do whatever we can so that our kids can

00:16:13.980 grew up in a righteous nation, a nation that exalts, that instead of exalting evil, exalts

00:16:19.840 righteousness and promotes righteousness and things like that. These are things that are achievable.

00:16:25.660 And we can remember them from our very recent past when, you know, when you were a homosexual, 0.63

00:16:30.380 you had to hide it. And it was in the dark alleys. It's not like it didn't exist. It existed, but 0.69

00:16:35.140 it wasn't promoted as if it was a good thing. This is pretty simple. It's not like we're saying

00:16:40.260 much that's like outrageous like it just just don't promote it you know and so and so the these

00:16:46.660 kinds of things it's like like now that's a big sticking point with non-christian nationalists but

00:16:52.040 i think that when if you take it out of the context of the christian nationalism discussion

00:16:56.160 most christians resonate with that right that's what i mean this is a layman's movement you know

00:17:01.120 layman get it layman understand a christian nation is gooder than transing kids that's basically it

00:17:06.860 And that we should work towards those ends. Those ends could be accomplished, at least theoretically, even if you don't think that they're going to be accomplished. 0.98

00:17:14.580 Like Jerry Falwell, he had a negative eschatology.

00:17:18.760 Even if he didn't think it could be accomplished and Christ could come at any time, he works towards those ends.

00:17:24.080 And a lot of guys do that. A lot of guys do that.

00:17:26.160 right that's a good one because because yes and it's actually very strategically advantage

00:17:31.340 advantageous to us because it is a very good look for us when the anti-christian nationalists come

00:17:38.940 and try to pretend like a christian nation would be bad it would be a bad thing it'd be evil

00:17:44.320 that's that's a that's a terrible argument in every way it's not true number one and number

00:17:50.920 two it looks awful and you end up signaling against all the good stuff that's happening

00:17:55.760 And you end up being this weirdo that everyone's looking at like, are you out of your mind? 1.00

00:18:00.960 Only an egghead could come up with something that stupid. 1.00

00:18:03.100 I mean, I'm serious. 1.00

00:18:04.220 Only an egghead could come up with something that's that lame. 0.94

00:18:07.380 So I love that. 0.94

00:18:08.320 I love that.

00:18:08.900 That it can happen.

00:18:10.040 That does not have to be a positive post-millennial eschatology.

00:18:14.080 It doesn't.

00:18:15.360 And I think if you look at Christian nationalists, they're everywhere across the board when it comes to eschatology.

00:18:22.160 They really are.

00:18:22.660 They're all over the place.

00:18:23.660 And I would argue that there are a lot of charismatic believers.

00:18:29.440 And I mean believers like like in the sense of that there's a lot of regenerate ones, too.

00:18:33.960 But, you know, I mean, just, you know, they're Christians that would fall under Christian nationalism, most likely.

00:18:38.280 And they all are premils. They're all, you know, dispensationalists, you know, whatever. 0.89

00:18:43.040 And it's across the board.

00:18:45.960 The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king.

00:18:50.940 As Americans, we hate the word king.

00:18:53.660 Civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased

00:18:58.980 power to resist tyrants and criminals. And so Armored Republic is about helping

00:19:05.380 you to preserve your God-given rights to the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ

00:19:09.280 because he is the King of Kings and he governs kings and he will judge them.

00:19:14.460 This is Armored Republic and in a republic there is no King but Christ.

00:19:20.500 We are free craftsmen, and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice.

00:19:38.780 You know, guys, why are you wearing the label?

00:19:41.100 You know, I was a pretty early adopter, and so were you.

00:19:43.780 And why not just be, you know, a post-millennial theonomist, right?

00:19:47.720 You already came out and said that that's what you were.

00:19:50.200 And it's, um, I haven't changed my position on that. I would say that, you know, Christian nationalism is like the whole house, you know, and, and my particular bedroom in that house is general equity, theonomy, postmill, you know, that's, that's, that's my room.

00:20:02.760 And we don't have to have all that figured out ahead of time.

00:20:06.180 We can be in the same house, and we can have different opinions on the law, too.

00:20:10.640 Because, again, I think that the law itself, like the theonomic version of this, which I'd fall under there, too.

00:20:18.480 So we're in the same team there.

00:20:20.520 But all that stuff, that's actually not the primary focus of Christian nationalism.

00:20:24.500 It's definitely part of it, and it's definitely important.

00:20:28.020 But that's actually not the house.

00:20:30.420 That's not the main point.

00:20:31.740 um and we can talk about that and debate that and you know what when those when those times come

00:20:36.020 you know i'm sure there'll be a christian nationalist that's not dusty deavers that

00:20:40.000 you know disagrees with some of the stuff that dusty deavers said but the point is

00:20:43.200 he's on the same team in general right as dusty deavers and so that's fine there's nothing wrong

00:20:48.500 with that exactly yeah so yeah so guys who were saying you know well why why adopt a christian

00:20:52.940 nationalist label if you already you already have a label there's already i mean there's there's

00:20:57.860 already been a movement of you know theonomic post mill guys you know uh working towards making

00:21:02.440 a difference you already you know you already have a team and uh and i would say you know my

00:21:07.560 answer to that question is because uh that team for a very long time has been very very small

00:21:12.800 it's a small team um you know it's a good it's also been pretty sectarian in my opinion

00:21:18.280 a lot of the time explain that i think that i think that a lot of like the like the theonomists

00:21:24.620 that i remember you know reading and interacting with um they're very like a very like if if if

00:21:32.820 you're if you're not a purist theonomist like us then then you're that's it that's like an anti-law

00:21:39.940 that's like that's like a another law that's another christ it's like another it's like it's

00:21:45.600 either it's either a pure theonomic law like i believe or it's evil and i think that that's that's

00:21:52.920 not a, that's not like a, that's a good, I think, I think I agree with a lot of that stuff. Like,

00:21:58.220 I think like there are certain laws that are just pure evil that are not theonomic. And I think that

00:22:02.440 of course, if you're going to try to make a good law, of course you should try to be as close to

00:22:06.860 the law as possible, you know, the law that God gave. But I think that, that we do need to have,

00:22:14.420 there's prudence in the here too, that we need to consider. You know what I mean? Like it would

00:22:18.840 be good if there were no prisons but would i get rid of prisons tomorrow if i could snap my finger 0.91

00:22:23.900 no no i wouldn't do it and i think that it would be stupid to do it and i think it'd be foolish to

00:22:28.880 do it but um a lot of the theonomists that i've read in the past or interacted with would say that

00:22:35.520 that i'm not a theonomist because of that and i think that that's that's kind of sectarian you

00:22:39.660 know what i mean like it's you're not gonna you're not it's hard to make a movement like that when

00:22:43.380 when the pure absolute purity is required right away um so i'm not i'm not like i don't i'm not

00:22:48.540 hating on those people because i get where they're coming from i do but um politically

00:22:54.700 this is a political thing too you do have to consider prudence right what's possible what's

00:23:02.540 what you can what you can actually accomplish you know and so um it's it's it's it's you got

00:23:07.800 to deal in reality i think i think sometimes theonomists don't deal in reality right yeah

00:23:11.840 yeah i think that's fair i think that sometimes the theonomist guys are just um it's a little bit

00:23:17.260 of the, you know, the hypothetical. It's, it's the theory and, and not necessarily as much of

00:23:22.900 the practice. And you need that because you need to know what you're shooting for, but you also

00:23:27.560 have to deal in reality. Right. Exactly. How do we get there? Yeah. So grateful for the Theonomist

00:23:33.640 guys. I, you know, I have no intention. I didn't bring it up to put any of those guys down, but

00:23:37.800 just to say, you know, my answer to that question, when guys say, well, you know, you, you already

00:23:42.240 had a label uh why do you adopt this other one um because it's uh it's a bigger house that uh that

00:23:48.780 links me with a bigger team and um i think we forget right we listen to our christian podcast

00:23:54.420 and we go to our christian church and we have our christian friends and that's all wonderful

00:23:58.480 but i think we forget um we are vastly outnumbered like yeah you know what i mean it's one thing if

00:24:05.780 you're Gideon and God is, is with an audible voice is supernaturally telling you to whittle

00:24:12.860 down the team and make it smaller. But last I checked, I haven't gotten an audible word from

00:24:18.100 the Lord saying, Hey, you know what? Like, you know what I mean? We're already a sliver of the

00:24:22.980 330 million people in these United States, a sliver. Like when we talk about genuine born 1.00

00:24:29.860 again Christians, right? Just starting there. So just all Christians total that are actually 0.98

00:24:35.520 regenerate. If we just start with that, you're, I, you know, only God sees, you know, man looks 1.00

00:24:42.000 at the outward appearance, God sees the heart. I don't have election goggles. I can't tell you,

00:24:46.040 but I would eat my hat if it's not less than 50% in terms of regenerate hearts,

00:24:53.340 true Christians in this nation. And then you're not just talking about that. You're talking about

00:24:57.860 out of just the total amount of Christians that you have to start with, you're whittling that 0.87

00:25:03.260 down even further in terms of who's willing to get involved and who actually wants a Christian 0.68

00:25:07.980 nation and who actually thinks that blasphemy laws is a good idea. And so when I started thinking 0.89

00:25:17.880 about this a couple of years ago and having conversations with people offline, when I found

00:25:23.080 that, you know, there were some other guys at the time, not a lot, but some, some other guys that

00:25:28.100 thought, yeah, we should have blasphemy laws and we should have Sabbath laws. And the civil

00:25:32.300 magistrate absolutely has a right and obligation under God to legislate both tables of the law of

00:25:38.340 God. But also I'm not post-millennial and I'm a classic two kingdom guy and I don't really like

00:25:44.040 theonomy. I just didn't feel like I was in a position to say, well, well, then you can't be

00:25:49.220 on the team. I was like, I'll take it. I'll take you. I'll take you. It's 10 dudes, 10 theonomists

00:25:59.480 in a room up against 330 million people, and they're killing babies and chopping off little 0.99

00:26:05.780 kids' reproductive organs. We are beggars in this game. We cannot afford to be choosers. 0.96

00:26:14.300 exactly the political situation we find ourselves in is is is really at a base basic level i keep

00:26:21.360 saying basic but it's true like we're not really we're not we're not working at this point it's not

00:26:28.020 an option for us to have um i don't know like uh like uh i don't i don't even really know what i'm

00:26:34.620 trying to say like a like a like a very nuanced like or let's just go with let's just go with

00:26:38.640 prisons like like eliminating prisons and bringing back uh slavery and and and and uh restitution and

00:26:45.360 stuff like that that's not on the table right now what we're debating is whether or not you should 0.97

00:26:50.060 be able to trans kids and kill kids and um you know things like that you know like it's it's 0.96

00:26:55.600 we'll get there we'll get there we shouldn't have prisons the way we have them now right that's 1.00

00:27:01.520 that's true we shouldn't do that but we can't let like it can't just be like an all or nothing kind

00:27:07.580 of thing we do have to make political uh alliances with other christians and i'm not saying that like

00:27:12.920 we're not talking about calling in the egyptians here these are other christians that like may not

00:27:17.900 may not understand and may not get exactly all the things that we get but we can work together

00:27:22.680 on some things and we can also be in the same uh the same nation you know what i mean and we can

00:27:28.280 debate these things and i think sometimes people forget like i was talking to this is kind of

00:27:32.740 unrelated but i was talking to someone who was telling me that they get very discouraged with

00:27:36.460 like all of the political maneuverings at a certain denomination, you know, like a Presbyterian

00:27:42.620 denomination. They get very discouraged of all like the backdoor deals and like all kinds of

00:27:47.060 stuff, right? I understand that. I get that. That can be discouraging. But I think what you need

00:27:52.480 to remember is in the Bible, when you see disagreements with the apostles or with just

00:27:58.260 anyone, it doesn't have to be the apostles, we just hear that there was a disagreement and then

00:28:02.860 they made a decision that's all we get but they're just people yeah they're just people and so they

00:28:09.260 were having these kinds of debates and there were backdoor meetings and they were trying to figure

00:28:13.320 out okay you know here's why i think you should you know bring uh this guy with us and you know

00:28:18.500 if you if you join me you know on this one you know we'll talk about this thing that you want

00:28:23.620 to do over here like they were doing all the same stuff they're just people and you need to make

00:28:28.360 alliances and you need to compromise and you need to do these kinds of things um not with you don't

00:28:33.440 compromise with evil but this is the game of politics you know what i mean if you're gonna

00:28:38.180 have any kind of political movement or any kind of political you know march towards good there's

00:28:44.420 going to be situations where you need to team up with people that are less than perfect by the way

00:28:50.360 you're less than perfect too and so am i so so so and when you say you're talking to the listener

00:28:57.080 not me i'm just kidding yeah yeah sure because i'm perfect i'd like to think that i'm perfect

00:29:03.400 no i'm just no you're right right so you see what i'm saying so like these kinds of like

00:29:07.200 in-house discussions where okay we're maybe we're not ready for maybe we're not ready for uh for uh

00:29:14.320 the sabbath law today in every state maybe some states are but we can certainly work towards some

00:29:23.040 of these more basic level things as we go towards that kind of thing right but i think what what

00:29:29.400 that actually is a good segue to your next point that the two tables of the law because when i was

00:29:34.640 listening to you i i agree with this this is this is basic but i wanted to just add that for some

00:29:42.140 people i would still want to call them christian nationalists even if they weren't ready for the

00:29:48.140 state to do the first table of the law anytime soon, but they at least acknowledged it as a

00:29:53.500 legitimate function of the civil magistrate. Because I think that there's a lot of people

00:29:58.600 that, you know, they think, okay, they're applying wisdom and prudence. They're like,

00:30:02.480 do I really want, you know, Gretchen Whitmer to, or her proteges to be, you know, in charge

00:30:11.500 to determine what's blasphemy of course you don't right of course you don't but

00:30:16.420 knowing it's a legitimate function of the civil government i think is necessary to be a christian

00:30:22.840 nationalist right and so um you know at some point that's a good distinction yeah the guys

00:30:28.160 you know what i mean they at least say you know what they're not they're not calling you a heretic

00:30:32.980 for suggesting it they're you know they're at least saying yeah this is legitimate and uh we

00:30:38.120 We did it in the past here in America and England and multiple, you know, so there are

00:30:41.740 plenty of, you know, plenty of guys from the Puritans, from the Covenanters, from the 0.99

00:30:45.040 Reformers, you know, this is perfectly legitimate.

00:30:47.440 It's well within the bounds of orthodoxy to say that the civil magistrate, that sphere

00:30:51.740 of government does have that right.

00:30:57.040 Go ahead.

00:30:57.300 This was another face plant of the anti-Christian nationalists because they came out and said

00:31:02.020 things like, you know, if you have the civil governing authority implementing the first

00:31:07.360 table that would be tyranny and you know that would be un-american america would cease to be

00:31:12.320 america they would get all hot under the collar with about that um that was a face plant it was

00:31:17.460 just a total face plant because we can eat this so easily say you know when america was established

00:31:23.160 we had all this stuff right it was it was all there and it didn't go away immediately because

00:31:28.240 the constitution was ratified oops i guess we gotta get rid of this stuff that's not how it

00:31:31.960 went down. So, so that was another face plan. And so lots of regular people like you and me,

00:31:39.040 we went to, you know, I went to public school. I don't know if you did or not, but public school

00:31:42.640 people, you know, we, we learned in school that it was very bad that the government did all these

00:31:46.940 things, but we can see in our history that it was actually there and it was good. And everyone

00:31:52.860 knew it was legitimate. And so regular people see that and they're like, Oh no, no, no, we're wrong

00:31:58.320 now we used to be right we're wrong now right and so um yeah i think i want to i want to here's what

00:32:04.480 i want to do this is why this is why i mentioned that to you joel because i want to create room

00:32:09.320 for people to have arguments and debates about what's prudent to do immediately what's prudent

00:32:16.020 to do in the next five years in the next 10 years but you have to what i was saying though though

00:32:20.680 to, to echo you, I was agreeing with you is, um, to have those debates about when and how,

00:32:27.180 um, or, or, uh, so what, you know, what gets closed down? What's the first thing that we're

00:32:32.460 going to close down when we, when we start to roll out blue laws, you know, like, uh, with the

00:32:36.800 Sabbath, like, um, you know, that's, that's a perfectly, perfectly fine conversation, but I 0.96

00:32:42.220 don't think that you're, you know, so I, though, like I said earlier, the whole appeal of Christian 0.93

00:32:46.840 nationalism to me is the fact that it's a big tent so i'd like that so hear that but um i don't

00:32:53.400 think you're a christian nationalist as big as that tent is and needs to be if we're going to

00:32:57.620 be successful and have an impact um as big as it is it still has to have borders it has to have

00:33:03.440 walls it has to be definable there's some kind of boundaries and and i would maintain that if a guy

00:33:08.980 is not ready for the uh the civil magistrate as it exists today um with joe biden and nancy pelosi

00:33:16.400 to legislate and enforce the first table of law,

00:33:19.960 I'm very sympathetic.

00:33:21.420 But if that guy says that that's something

00:33:24.740 that biblically, scripturally is outside the purview

00:33:27.760 of the civil magistrate inherently,

00:33:29.980 that it's always wrong in any time, in any place

00:33:33.020 for the civil magistrate to punish blasphemies

00:33:36.320 and to uphold the Sabbath,

00:33:37.900 then that guy's just, he's not a Christian nationalist.

00:33:39.940 I'm sorry.

00:33:40.340 Absolutely.

00:33:40.680 I'm gonna use my, whatever credibility I have

00:33:44.600 as a leader within the Christian nationalist movement and say, nope, I'm drawing, it's

00:33:47.600 a big tent, but it ain't that big.

00:33:49.640 I'm sorry.

00:33:50.120 You're not on the team.

00:33:51.720 Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:52.820 No, no, I'm with you 100% on that.

00:33:55.040 You know, I think you have to at least believe that it is a legitimate function for a Christian

00:33:59.480 nation.

00:34:00.020 And I think, I think too, that's, that's, that's the key maybe, because if we're going

00:34:03.400 to have a Christian nation, it needs to be distinctly Christian and that's going to require

00:34:07.080 enforcement of a distinctly Christian entire table of the law. 0.85

00:34:12.700 I mean, a lot of the first four, the four commandments, that's, that's where you do

00:34:16.020 that, where you establish, this is a legitimately, we're, we're honoring Christ in this.

00:34:20.480 And that's where the whole second table of the law stems from.

00:34:23.340 I think that's part of the problem is that you get rid of the first table of the law

00:34:26.740 and then the second table.

00:34:28.180 So if I get rid of loving the Lord, my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength,

00:34:32.760 then, then the commandment for me to love my neighbor as myself is now suspended in

00:34:37.580 midair.

00:34:38.160 It's not, it's not, there's no standard for it.

00:34:41.100 There's no, there's no backdrop.

00:34:42.200 there's no structure, there's no support. And that's where all of a sudden you get loving

00:34:47.840 your neighbor looks like women's health care rights instead of protecting the unborn. And it 0.93

00:34:52.440 looks like a 12-year-old's right to choose their gender. It's totally eroded. It's totally eroded

00:34:59.060 because it used to be in the United States that when God said, you shall not kill, we understood

00:35:04.300 that you can't murder with impunity. You take away the Christian part of this, which is what 0.98

00:35:11.500 we've done over the past you know you know years and now all of a sudden well sometimes it's okay 0.97

00:35:16.540 to kill exactly love for neighbor kill so the only way that you can you can maintain and preserve

00:35:22.540 genuine love because love for neighbor it's pretty simple it's only two main words there

00:35:28.660 you know love your neighbor as yourself it's love and neighbor but both of those do beg a question

00:35:33.480 i need to know who is my neighbor and i also need to know what is love what is love baby don't hurt

00:35:40.000 me. But I need to know that. And it's only the Bible. It's only the Christian worldview

00:35:47.720 that defines for me what love objectively is so that love isn't hijacked and tossing and turning

00:35:55.840 and going every which way with the culture and the latest fad. And it's also only the Bible

00:36:01.780 that tells me who my neighbor is. That yes, we live in a universal neighborhood. Every single

00:36:07.520 human being made in the image of God is my neighbor, the born, the unborn, the person who

00:36:12.760 speaks Swahili over in Kenya and the person in China and the person in these United States of

00:36:18.740 America. But the Bible tells me that I live in a universal neighborhood, but it also gives me

00:36:23.340 an order of loves, an order of affections. It tells me in terms of these neighbors, yes,

00:36:30.740 every image bearer is my neighbor, but I am called as a finite human being to prioritize

00:36:36.380 some neighbors over others. I'm to love my wife, one particular woman, more than I love all women.

00:36:43.620 I'm to love my children more than I love all children. And likewise, our civil magistrate,

00:36:48.740 our civil rulers, should care about stopping a full-blown invasion of military-aged men at

00:36:54.940 our southern border more than Ukraine or Israel. I was about to say that's just common sense,

00:37:01.220 and it is, but common sense comes from God. Common sense comes from God. And when you reject,

00:37:07.540 I was preaching this just the other week in our church, and it's just showing from the Proverbs 1.00

00:37:11.400 and other texts of scripture that there is a direct correlation between rebellion and stupidity, 0.98

00:37:17.620 and likewise, a direct correlation between obedience and righteousness and wisdom. 0.99

00:37:23.820 Like you obey God to the T and you become smarter.

00:37:29.640 You really do.

00:37:30.340 Over time, the way that that shapes you, the way that you begin to think about life and

00:37:35.440 the world, like you become wiser.

00:37:38.360 The Proverbs constantly says that the simple man, right?

00:37:41.720 So simple as opposed to wisdom is also the wicked man.

00:37:45.340 It's not, oh, he's a really good guy, but he's just simple.

00:37:48.400 The Proverbs never speaks like that.

00:37:49.900 It never speaks of a good, simple man.

00:37:52.240 the simple man is always a bad man and the wise man is always a good man and and so um so yeah so 0.99

00:37:59.140 if you reject uh righteousness um you become stupid and and so all these these ploys from 0.99

00:38:06.200 politicians you know rhinos you know republican and name only saying well i'm just advocating for 1.00

00:38:11.300 common sense measures and common sense but well here's the problem uh these united states of

00:38:16.580 america these 330 million people they don't have common sense we lost that we lost that a long time

00:38:22.640 ago arguably 130 years ago we are way past the days where the average person uh has common sense

00:38:28.640 we we need in order if we're going to have common sense um then then we need a common source of sense

00:38:37.020 the word of god yeah yeah i think this second one here um is um it's probably um a little bit

00:38:46.060 harder for a lot of normies to swallow, but it is, but I don't think, I don't think it needs to

00:38:51.220 be though. I think, I think we can, uh, we can show examples from even some, some like current

00:38:57.120 news that, that kind of show this. And in fact that, you know, there was a, a, a Supreme court

00:39:01.940 decision in Alabama about, uh, about embryos about, you know, um, you know, whether they're

00:39:08.760 actually people or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And, uh, you know, the, the chief justice,

00:39:14.060 you know cited uh the image of god as as the reason why he concurred with the opinion you

00:39:19.500 know what i mean he says you can't you can't destroy a human being that bears the image of

00:39:24.060 god without facing his glory and so he's he's saying look the reason why the reason why we

00:39:30.340 protect human beings is because god is there we bear his image he told us to and it's as simple

00:39:37.380 as that and so like when when you connect it like that in something that's current people can easily

00:39:43.380 see that okay so if you take out the whole part that's christian about this in the first you know

00:39:51.620 four commandments you that's when you start messing up the other stuff that that they can

00:39:57.000 swallow easily yeah everyone believes the government should protect life right you know

00:40:00.940 you know should enforce murder laws and stuff like that but you can't disconnect them and so

00:40:06.280 i think like like that point can be made to normies it's something that there's been a lot

00:40:11.620 of indoctrination done to us that has made us kind of just recoil at oh my goodness the blasphemy

00:40:16.720 laws that's like the worst thing ever um but it can be overcome and i think it's it's one of those

00:40:22.160 it's a simple argument to make which is good because i think that that it will resonate with

00:40:27.620 normies if you just make if you just make the argument and i think the other thing too is that

00:40:31.580 again the the opposite argument like arguing against it it's just so laughable that it's um

00:40:37.620 it helps us every time they make something, some argument like that.

00:40:41.820 If you love the Psalms, you're going to want to hear this. We all know that finding quality music

00:40:46.500 that's theologically sound can be difficult these days. That's why the Psalms Project is putting

00:40:52.160 together all 150 Psalms with every single verse included to artful, creative, professionally

00:40:59.420 produced music without gutting or censoring the God-breathed text. The Psalms Project is led by

00:41:06.860 Shane Howlman, a Reformed believer who holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

00:41:13.340 Here's a quick sample.

00:41:15.300 The Lord is my light and my salvation. Whom shall I fear?

00:41:26.620 To hear more music from The Psalms Project, including their new album for Psalms 47-55

00:41:32.380 that just dropped, go to the psalmsproject.com. Again, go to the psalmsproject.com today.

00:41:40.340 The third one is kind of bottom line, you know, lowest common denominator of being a Christian

00:41:47.080 nationalist. And this is another one that like what we were talking about earlier, you did a good job

00:41:50.660 bringing the, you know, the theonomy into the conversation and saying, well, it is a little

00:41:56.140 bit different than theonomy in the sense that it's the theonomists, not all of them, you know,

00:42:01.540 but sometimes tend to be an ideologue, whereas the Christian nationalist tends to be a little

00:42:06.300 bit more of a realist. You know, that was one of the distinctions that you brought up. And then I

00:42:10.160 said, and another distinction is it's just a larger tent. It allows me to be on the same team

00:42:14.980 with someone like Joe Boot, who would not be a big fan of the label Christian nationalist. He is

00:42:21.600 a theonomist and so am I. I agree with Joe Boot and his theology and his doctrine. But then I

00:42:27.080 could partner with Joe Boot and I could also partner with somebody like Stephen Wolf. Like

00:42:30.860 Joe Booth's going to be speaking at our conference in March, and then I'm going to be at New

00:42:33.980 Christendom Conference with Eric Kahn and Brian Silvey and those guys, and Stephen Wolf will be

00:42:38.620 there. And I can be in both of those realms as a Christian nationalist, even though I would

00:42:44.000 personally prescribe to a general equity theonomy. So I think that's helpful. But the other thing,

00:42:48.760 another common denominator, number three, is that I think is different with a Christian

00:42:53.420 nationalist than the smaller, narrow group of your hardcore theonomist is this. The Christian

00:43:01.660 nationalist believes that the nation can change, that it can in fact become Christian in not just

00:43:10.080 one, but two ways. It can become Christian bottom up by God sending a mass move of his spirit and

00:43:18.540 a revival that regenerates millions of hearts to where people truly are born again begin to love

00:43:24.280 god and uh love his gospel and his law and desire to see his law upheld publicly by the civil

00:43:32.340 magistrate in our our political forms that's one way um but a lot of the theonomist guys and even

00:43:39.820 some of the you know the post-mill theonomic guys um sometimes they they speak i want to be sensitive

00:43:46.740 because I like these guys and they're friends, but sometimes they speak in such a way that it

00:43:51.180 seems as though that's the only way God can bring this about. They'll say, it's good to

00:43:57.440 have these conversations to a certain degree, to talk about what Christian laws would look like

00:44:03.160 and what a Christian nation would look like and the landscape so that we know what we're aiming

00:44:07.840 for and all these kinds of things. But none of this is going to, we're not even going to be able

00:44:12.800 to get an inch of this, make any of this happen apart from a mass revival, a mass move. And that's

00:44:19.220 where the Christian nationalist would differ from the theonomist. And in this regard, I'm going to

00:44:24.900 lean heavier on my Christian nationalist side than my theonomist side. I believe that I am working

00:44:30.400 towards and praying towards as an individual Christian man, as a husband, a father, and a

00:44:34.560 pastor, towards if God would be so kind that I'm doing my best to lay the kindling if God chooses

00:44:41.620 and his sovereignty to send the fire for a revival.

00:44:43.940 If God wants to do it that way, bottom up,

00:44:45.920 bunch of regenerate hearts first, 0.90

00:44:47.640 then working towards Christian government next, great.

00:44:50.780 I'm also though a firm believer

00:44:53.580 that if you look at biblical history of Israel

00:44:56.660 or Nineveh or Babylon or Syria

00:45:01.300 or the last 2000 years of world history,

00:45:04.920 Christian history and world history,

00:45:07.000 King Alfred, Constantine,

00:45:08.820 this is the problem the problem is reading reading gets you in trouble so one of the things i've been

00:45:15.020 doing these last few years is reading and i think that's part of the reason why i got a bunch of

00:45:18.880 guys are becoming christian nationalists is because they actually are this is how we started

00:45:21.820 the episode they're actually doing the reading as i started reading about history reading the

00:45:26.700 scripture reading the old testament of course but then also reading about the last 2 000 years of

00:45:31.480 history. You know what I've found? What did you find? You found lots of revivals leading to bottom

00:45:38.860 up revolution, correct? Nope. Nope. Nope. And it's kind of, it bummed me out at first. I was like,

00:45:45.780 oh man, like, but no, statistically God can do that. And we pray for it. We work towards it.

00:45:51.720 That's great. Praise God. But statistically that is not what God has chosen to do in history.

00:45:57.420 Instead, and God, now that's not to say God doesn't send revival.

00:46:00.600 The question though is what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

00:46:03.820 God does send revival.

00:46:05.240 He's done it a lot of times and it's powerful and it's beautiful and it lends towards the

00:46:09.560 end goal or the end result of revival is lots and lots of born again Christians, lots of

00:46:15.180 regenerate hearts, lots of people going to heaven instead of hell.

00:46:17.920 Praise God, eternal good, right?

00:46:20.040 Not just the temporary, but the eternal good.

00:46:21.600 But if you look at what kickstarted, what happened first, very often what it is, is a sliver of the population.

00:46:28.360 A small group of people are strategic and gain influence and power. 0.81

00:46:34.920 And they begin to wield that power in Christian ways.

00:46:40.980 And then they do that in business, they do it in wealth, in finance, and in politics with the government.

00:46:47.600 And in the government aspect, they begin to wield the Christian sword in a Christian direction. 0.51

00:46:53.340 And then the law, which does not convert, but the law of God begins to work as the Bible says it 0.57

00:46:59.840 does as a tutor. And it begins to shape and instruct and disciple the populace, the population

00:47:07.360 of citizens within. And it begins to inform them on what true morality is, what actually is holy,

00:47:13.980 what is debased, people begin to feel a sense of heightened awareness of their own sinfulness.

00:47:22.340 And then with many, not all, but with many then through the church and now gospel preaching on

00:47:27.780 that backdrop of understanding properly what the law of God is, then come your gospel revival

00:47:33.780 preachers and a bunch of people have a heightened awareness of their sin and therefore their need

00:47:38.280 for a savior and they get saved. That's the order of events 90% of the time. And so I just feel like

00:47:46.380 if whatever Christian nationalism is, again, the three common denominators, I think one of them

00:47:53.720 has to be that Christian nationalists believe that God can change a whole nation. I mean,

00:48:01.040 I mean, I'm talking every fabric, a complete overhaul of a nation and make it a Christian 0.84

00:48:08.560 nation, but he can do it bottom up and he can also do it top down. 0.96

00:48:12.860 We do not need 50% of the population plus one to have regenerate hearts before we can

00:48:20.580 get to work.

00:48:21.700 I love it.

00:48:23.060 I love it.

00:48:23.540 That's a really good one.

00:48:24.540 And I have nothing to push back on at all.

00:48:26.960 I think that is really, really important.

00:48:31.040 Because I think even like when you think about the political aspect of this, you know, oftentimes people will say stuff like, well, you're just a small move that you'll never amount to anything.

00:48:44.580 I've said so often, like in politics, you do not need 51% of the people to agree with you on something to get something done.

00:48:53.660 I mean, here's the thing. Like, I think that that there is a legitimate chance to to really put a strong effort into, at the very least, limiting pornography.

00:49:08.340 But I think banning pornography is on the table in the next couple of decades.

00:49:12.380 And the amount of people that have come out that said that they're for banning pornography recently, and even in the wake of Dusty Deavers and some of the stuff he's been doing, and I'm talking big names, has just been so amazing to see.

00:49:30.840 We don't need to wait, like you said, 51 plus 1% to ban porn.

00:49:35.240 We can do it quickly, and that would be such a benefit.

00:49:38.680 I mean, when I was converted-

00:49:40.380 Banning pornography, AD. 1.00

00:49:42.360 That's a Jew's hardest hit right there. 1.00

00:49:45.720 Because here, wow, nice, nice, spicy.

00:49:48.520 A lot of unemployment going to be happening.

00:49:50.680 Go ahead.

00:49:51.360 Listen, listen, I think about my own conversion, right?

00:49:55.040 And this is how you get saved.

00:49:58.640 I heard the gospel and I converted at some point after that.

00:50:03.480 And at that point when I heard the gospel, it was very real to me for the first time.

00:50:08.840 And that's how you get saved.

00:50:10.320 We get that.

00:50:10.900 But I often think about all the preparation that went before that, because a lot of the stuff that I was involved in before I was a believer was still stigmatized in the culture.

00:50:23.780 Like it wasn't like I feel bad for homosexuals because their sin is celebrated by the culture.

00:50:29.620 That doesn't it's hard to prepare a heart that's been celebrated for their sin to be converted from it. 0.91

00:50:36.320 You know what I mean? But for me, you know, I was, I was, you know, in an adulterous affair with some lady, I was doing drugs, like I was a degenerate by anyone's standards, right? So I was already feeling like, I'm a degenerate, I was hiding it from my friends, the things I was up to, you know, like, I was, I felt like I knew that what I was doing was dirty. So when I heard the gospel, it was like, I was prepared for it. You know what I mean? I was prepared for I already felt because culturally, the things I was doing, you know, I didn't want anyone to know.

00:51:04.240 and like um so so all of that stuff like if you if you ban pornography today and made it so that

00:51:11.960 the only way you could you know indulge in your pornographic thing is at great risk of being

00:51:16.760 uh you know in trouble or you had to go to the back alleys like it used to be like that's how

00:51:21.640 you used to have to do the porn you had to go to these seedy little uh you know theaters and stuff

00:51:25.640 or whatever and you felt like a degenerate that would be a benefit for the people that are still

00:51:31.420 decide to indulge in pornography right right instead of you know a society where it's like

00:51:36.620 totally open you can get it on twitter you know what i mean um maybe not so much anymore but i

00:51:42.080 think you can still probably you know i don't know if he's really completely got rid of it

00:51:45.520 there's still a lot of porn bots on twitter but he's cleaning it up some but yeah there's a lot

00:51:50.080 but this is but this is but this is this is this is exactly right like like like like you can set

00:51:56.360 things up so that people are are like you know are primed for conversion you know what i mean

00:52:02.860 like like it's not about the government converting you but um again like when you have to get your

00:52:08.420 abortion in the back alley at great risk for yourself instead of going to a clean you know

00:52:13.840 you know operating table um i i really do believe that god uses that kind of stuff

00:52:19.980 to like really prime you for for conversion so when you hear that gospel and you're like man i

00:52:25.600 just was in the dark alley yesterday with all these degenerates killing my kid you actually

00:52:30.920 feel the weight of it a lot more i think yep and i think you know this is this is this is this is

00:52:36.760 this is definitely something that is a hump for some people to get over because i agree there's a

00:52:40.660 lot of um of uh friends of ours that um they're friends of our you know the friends of ours not

00:52:47.240 friends of mine you know um a lot of friends of ours that would would want to do the sort of the

00:52:51.660 bottom-up type thing and i'm so glad you brought it up because you're a baptist because that's you

00:52:57.880 know and some of the guys that say this are presbyterian they really ought to know better

00:53:01.820 and and and most baptists know better you know they they set up their home and they set up their

00:53:07.220 home they don't know that their kids are believers or not you know they don't they don't they don't

00:53:10.680 necessarily um you know call them christians yet because they're younger whatever some baptists are

00:53:15.180 like this but they set up their house in a certain way that they know that there are certain things

00:53:21.900 that are good and holy and and righteous and even if they're outnumbered even if it's just mom and

00:53:27.420 dad are regenerate and there's six kids you know and they're all under the age of eight

00:53:30.880 you know totally outnumbered as far as they know not a single one of them's regenerate you know

00:53:35.240 and and it's like man this is like we're we only make up 25 of the population of this household

00:53:40.580 that only 25% is Christian.

00:53:42.220 And guess what? 0.95

00:53:42.940 The rules of the house are Christian.

00:53:45.140 They're Christian. 0.92

00:53:46.140 And you do that because, no, you intuitively know

00:53:49.840 that setting them up in a situation like that is teaching,

00:53:54.100 is telling them something, it's helping them.

00:53:56.340 It's going to lead to good results.

00:53:57.960 I've even seen this work when there's like a grandmother

00:54:01.500 and grandfather that are Christian,

00:54:03.120 and then like nobody else in the family is.

00:54:05.460 But, you know, they end up,

00:54:07.900 there's a lot of conversions that end up happening there

00:54:09.640 because they know when they're doing their degenerate stuff and they, you know, they know

00:54:13.200 that the grandmother's praying for them in her prayer closet every night. They know when they're

00:54:18.080 in trouble and they've gotten, you know, they feel like that they're under the rope. They go to

00:54:21.580 their grandma and grandpa because they understand, they've set up their whole families in a way

00:54:25.880 to understand that. So I've seen this, we've seen this work. And so the culture, the nation is just

00:54:32.800 a really big family at the end of the day. And so it works the same way. Let me say this too.

00:54:38.360 And I think that this is true.

00:54:44.060 Nick Storm, he's on Twitter.

00:54:45.900 He's a guy on Twitter.

00:54:47.040 I think he's from Idaho or something or Washington.

00:54:50.740 And he said this.

00:54:51.700 He said-

00:54:51.920 He's in one of our super duper secret threads, right?

00:54:56.220 Maybe.

00:54:57.280 Oh, yeah.

00:54:57.600 Maybe.

00:54:58.340 Which I'm probably not allowed to talk about.

00:55:00.780 Go ahead.

00:55:01.380 There's no thread.

00:55:02.980 I'm not sure if he is or not.

00:55:04.120 I don't participate in those.

00:55:05.240 I'm in a lot of them, but I don't really participate. 0.59

00:55:06.600 But Christian nationalism is less about implementing certain laws and more about reinforcing a collective identity of a people and orienting that people to their eternal good.

00:55:17.440 I think that's really true. And, and, and laws are going to follow, right? But, but, but, but it's really about having, look, we're in this, in this nation, you know, whether you're a believer or not, whether you like it or not, we're going to honor what God says we should honor. And we're going to, we're going to, you know, punish and, and, and, and suppress things that God says that we should punish and suppress. That's what we do in this country.

00:55:41.940 If you can't see how that will lead to more true believers, they're not all going to be true believers, but it will lead to true believers more so than what we've got currently.

00:55:56.400 Then I think that you really have to do some thinking and you really need to do some meditating on that because it's just so obvious that that would lead to good outcomes.

00:56:10.220 And one great example to substantiate that, it's been used a lot, but it's still worth using. So the notorious atheist, I forget his name, but he is right hand man ended up, you know, leaving, you know, his, his organization, this atheist organization. And it was during 2020 and COVID and all that kind of stuff. And they decided, you know, they wanted to get out of their blue state, you know, kind of like a James Lindsay type, you know, so they're like, oh, you know, the, the progressives went.

00:56:35.940 Who's James Lindsay?

00:56:37.360 Yeah, seriously.

00:56:38.860 Who's that girl?

00:56:39.680 I've never heard of her.

00:56:41.280 But, you know, but like, you know, but decided like, you know, I, you know, it kind of like

00:56:45.660 your classic Bill Maher classic, you know, the left left me, they went too far, you know,

00:56:50.380 but not realizing like, yeah, but your quest to kill God, congratulations, you know, like

00:56:55.160 this is on you, bud, take some responsibility and, you know, but that's not, you just hear

00:56:59.200 like, oh, I'm a reasonable God hater.

00:57:01.440 But anyways, so, you know, so he was one of the, you know, initially that's how it started. 0.98

00:57:04.840 I, I've reasonably, you know, hated God and devoted my life towards killing him and killing

00:57:09.280 the, you know, traditions and the Christian worldview. Um, but man, things really got, 0.99

00:57:13.540 you know, got out of hand here, you know? And so during COVID he left his blue state and all that

00:57:17.420 kind of stuff, moved to a red state, small rural town because he wanted freedom, right? Typical,

00:57:21.840 you know, classical liberalism, atheists hating God, you know, uh, contradiction while a living,

00:57:28.120 walking, breathing contradiction. So, but he does that, but then it's like him and his wife,

00:57:33.000 they had no friends you know because they're in a new town it's a new community they don't know

00:57:36.280 anybody like well what do you do in this town and they asked around you know like they go out to

00:57:41.100 eat and like where do people go what do they do to um to make relationships and in that town in

00:57:47.120 that context everybody said well you go to church so they started going to a cowboy church little

00:57:52.820 cowboy church and uh lo and behold the dude's saved now because it turns out being in a context

00:58:00.700 of a conservative, surrounded by Christians, more moral people, more traditional people in a small

00:58:07.260 rural town and going to church every Sunday, turns out that even with an ardent atheist,

00:58:14.260 God used that as the means of softening his heart. And here's part of the problem. The guys who think

00:58:18.900 that, well, the conversion is only going to come about in the most hostile environments possible

00:58:25.880 that are rife with persecution, then look, God can do that. And he has done that and praise God

00:58:32.540 for that. But what you're discounting, especially if you claim to be within the Reformed tradition,

00:58:37.880 you're discounting one of the major tenants of our Reformed faith, which is that God works

00:58:43.080 through means. The means of grace are potent. They're powerful. They work, not always, not as

00:58:51.820 a guarantee, not 100% of the time, but very often if somebody is sitting underneath the faucet on a

00:58:59.080 regular basis, continually, the faucet of God's means of grace, preaching the word, praying the

00:59:04.780 word, the administering of the sacraments, and then taking that into the public square outside

00:59:09.460 of the institution of the church, but in the public square with Christian laws and more Christian

00:59:14.760 morality, and there's not porn on your phone. You have to seek it out and feel like a degenerate as

00:59:20.180 you do, then yeah, that, that lends towards conversion guarantees it. No, but it lends

00:59:26.880 towards conversion and to think anything other way. I just think as guys think about that a

00:59:32.400 little bit more, the part of the problem is I think some guys, they, they, they, they picked

00:59:36.680 aside a little bit too soon before they stopped and thought about it. But as guys start to do the

00:59:42.660 reading and, and, you know, we should start a new tweet that there's the, do the reading tweet.

00:59:46.620 and we should start one, a do the thinking tweet.

00:59:49.100 As guys do the thinking and do the reading

00:59:51.440 and do the praying, I think more and more,

00:59:55.280 you just can't get away from it.

00:59:56.520 You're just gonna be like, of course, of course this is right.

00:59:59.020 So let me recap real quick.

01:00:01.180 So these are the three,

01:00:02.140 because that's probably how,

01:00:03.260 I think that's kind of what we covered in the episode.

01:00:05.240 I think it's really helpful.

01:00:06.280 But the three main things is one,

01:00:08.860 a general disposition of hopefulness,

01:00:11.280 regardless of eschatology,

01:00:12.860 whether you're historic pre-mill or all-mill

01:00:15.900 or post-mill, you believe that we should work towards a Christian worldview in the public

01:00:23.120 square, that we should work towards that, and that our work could be successful.

01:00:28.300 And the one extra thing that I thought of as we were talking that I'll add to that first

01:00:31.600 one is one of the differences, what makes a common denominator that I find across the

01:00:37.240 board with Christian nationalists, whether they're all-mill or pre-mill or post-mill,

01:00:41.000 is that they are hopeful.

01:00:42.180 They all have a general disposition of hopefulness, but here's the distinction in the short term.

01:00:47.640 They're hopeful for the next 50 years, not just the next 5,000 years. 0.88

01:00:52.100 They think that, and none of them are naive, bushy-tailed and naive, and they're not dumb. 0.55

01:00:57.280 So they're not saying in 50 years, everything's going to be great. 0.62

01:00:59.860 A lot of them are, you know, every other day, you have to talk them off the ledge.

01:01:02.580 They're blackpilling.

01:01:03.360 They get discouraged.

01:01:04.240 They're human like anybody else.

01:01:05.400 But there is a general disposition of short-term hopefulness that we can work towards these

01:01:11.680 things in the public square, in government, and God could bring them about in our lifetime,

01:01:17.220 or at least our children's lifetime, not just 50,000 years from now. 0.62

01:01:21.360 That would be a difference between some of your old school Reconstructionist guys versus

01:01:27.240 the Christian Nationalists. 0.87

01:01:28.780 So short-term hopefulness, regardless of eschatology. 0.66

01:01:31.760 Number two, both tables of the law of God being legislated by the civil magistrate,

01:01:36.780 or I'll adopt your disclaimer because I think it's helpful, at least an openness,

01:01:41.320 maybe an argument in terms of prudence, when and how, timing, but at least an openness saying

01:01:48.220 eventually, yes, blasphemy should be illegal. And that has been the Christian tradition,

01:01:55.080 certainly the Reformed tradition that's well within the bounds of orthodoxy,

01:01:58.700 and uh and that and i'm fine with that i you know i may say let's not um let's not do that tomorrow

01:02:04.680 with uh with joe biden at the helm but uh but that is um that is a perfectly reasonable position

01:02:11.000 not just second table of law but first table of law and then the last one is um yes god could could

01:02:16.640 do it bottom up grassroots revival mass move the holy spirit um over 50 of the population being

01:02:23.240 regenerate, and then just living out their Christian faith in every realm of life, including

01:02:29.040 the public square. And God could also do it with a strategic minority that in God's providence and

01:02:36.880 sovereignty and favor and grace works their way into positions of influence and power and

01:02:43.720 leverages that power for the glory of God, because power is not inherently evil. Power is a tool,

01:02:51.440 And like any tool, you can take a hammer and build a house.

01:02:55.220 You can take a hammer and bash in a skull.

01:02:57.880 It's not inherently evil or inherently righteous. 0.96

01:03:01.600 Power is a tool, and it can be wielded by Christians in righteous ways.

01:03:06.740 I think those are the three big things.

01:03:08.780 Any final thoughts for this episode?

01:03:11.260 No, I think that those three big things are really good.

01:03:14.540 And I think it's very easy to see when you when you kind of talk about these things, why this this this movement or whatever it is, political movement is has legs.

01:03:26.980 It has legs because these things are pretty basic. They're pretty easy to understand.

01:03:31.060 And if the arguments against these things, they do more good for us as Christian nationalists than they do for the other side.

01:03:42.040 um it's it's just been very amazing to me to watch the kinds of things that uh anti-christian

01:03:48.920 nationalists choose to signal against um it's it's it's again it's only something funny dude

01:03:55.320 what like yeah one week it's it's uh we are we have a a campaign against working out and then

01:04:02.480 with the dusty dearest thing there was and it wasn't all of them so i don't want to throw

01:04:06.380 everybody but there were there were some of the anti-christian nationalists that uh for a week 0.93

01:04:10.980 on Twitter, it was, I am for porn. And I was like, what? I was like, this, I could not have 0.96

01:04:19.420 written this script myself. Like, this is hilarious. I mean, at first, it's tragic. But

01:04:23.900 secondly, if you can get past the tragedy of Christians arguing for the freedom of porn, 0.98

01:04:28.520 it's hilarious. If you can push back the tears, then you'll start to chuckle. But it was, I mean, 0.97

01:04:34.360 and these are conservative, these aren't just, you know, nominal Christians. These are conservative

01:04:38.020 of Christians who I know really do love the Lord, but they just, they couldn't help themselves

01:04:42.320 because they did, they, you know, they're like, well, but how would that be enforced? And I don't 0.99

01:04:46.540 like that. And that would be giving up freedom, you know? And that's the thing for them. It's

01:04:51.340 freedom matters, but their definition of freedom is everyone getting to do what they want. And

01:04:59.280 they forget that's the very definition of freedom that got us to trans and kids. That's people

01:05:04.600 getting to do what they want. So no, you won't get to have every element of your freedom. You'll

01:05:10.040 have true freedom, but true freedom is within the bounds that God has set for what's righteous and

01:05:16.440 good. And so yeah, pornography should be banned. And if it's banned, yes, that would require,

01:05:22.700 in terms of its enforcement, that would require some level of encroachment of what we might now

01:05:31.160 view as freedom but that would be for the better now if you have just genuine concerns of like okay

01:05:36.200 but uh the the tech that would have to be used in a practical sense to monitor pornography could

01:05:41.480 also be used to spy on that's a decent okay so so now we're debating how to accomplish that

01:05:47.440 but that's not what i saw i saw guys just straight up saying no don't ban porn christian guys

01:05:52.820 it's a matter of principle somehow yeah i was like that it's silly so yeah absolutely no this

01:05:58.460 is good stuff i love it uh i think this is a very good episode um for for just just to kind of clear

01:06:04.520 up like just sort of the basics like you know if you don't affirm these things then you're not a

01:06:09.960 christian nationalist and there's you know okay we can still talk but like um yeah that's great

01:06:14.160 stuff man good good stuff cool thanks for coming on the show ad appreciate it thanks bye

01:06:18.960 We'll be right back.

The NXR Podcast - April 15, 2024

THE INTERVIEW ｜ The 3 Basic Beliefs Of All Christian Nationalists with AD Robles

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript