Dr. Stephen Wolfe is the author of The Case for Christian Nationalism, a book that argues that multiculturalism is not only bad for our society, but that it actually hurts it. In this episode, Pastor Joel Webbin and Dr. Wolfe discuss how we can have a culture that is welcoming and hospitable to people of all walks of life.
00:00:27.360the negative effects that we have suffered as a nation because of it, especially over the last
00:00:32.82060 years, and what to do about it, and then answering some of the big questions of, okay,
00:00:38.700well, if we're going to have a monoculture, then doesn't that mean that you are racist? And the
00:00:43.600answer is no. And we'll flesh that out and show you how we can have unity. Diversity is not our
00:00:49.940strength. Unity is our strength. And yet how we can be welcoming and hospitable to different
00:00:55.200ethnicities and all these things that we find in scripture. That's the episode. And Dr. Stephen
00:01:00.740Wolfe, you've probably heard all the scary, you know, he's the boogeyman hiding under your bed.
00:01:07.080Try to lower your shields for a moment. Use discernment. You may disagree, but give him a
00:01:12.240chance. He's got some really good things to say, and I'd like you to hear it for yourself. So tune
00:01:16.660in now. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:01:25.200All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,
00:01:31.000Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to
00:01:35.400the show, Stephen Wolfe, Dr. Stephen Wolfe. He's not a pastor. Praise God, we need pastors,
00:01:41.840but we don't need everyone to be a pastor. And so he's doing what God's called him to do.
00:01:46.380He is also the author, you probably recognize his name. He's the author of The Case for
00:01:50.800Christian nationalism. And Stephen and I just recently were able to have the privilege of
00:01:55.820speaking at the New Christendom conference with the Ogden boys. That's Brian Sauve and Eric Kahn,
00:02:01.200Dan Burkholder, and Ben Garrett. That was a blessing. And one of the talks at the conference
00:02:06.980that Stephen presented for us was on multiculturalism, arguing that, well, that
00:02:12.540diversity is not our strength, but the type of diversity in view might surprise you. And I think
00:02:17.880it's worth fleshing out. So Stephen, can you give us maybe a recap of that talk that you presented?
00:02:25.640Yeah, yeah. So yeah, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so what I was trying to address was
00:02:31.460several things. One was whether or not multiculturalism is actually a good thing,0.96
00:02:37.060not only theoretically, but actually in effect. So like in the world, is there any indicator
00:02:43.500through social science and research that multiculturalism is actually good for0.97
00:02:48.260society um and in every society it's actually bad uh this it's one of the funny things actually
00:02:54.400liberals uh liberal and leftist researchers who have really tried to prove that multiculturalism
00:03:00.880is good um have actually demonstrated and been honest about it that it's actually bad there's
00:03:06.460been there's been actually researchers who've done research on social trust around the country
00:03:10.800around the world and they sat on the on the research because they they got the data they're
00:03:15.860expecting to show this great you know result of multiculturalism is great and britches and it's0.88
00:03:21.200it's magical and all that um but then in the end it actually shows that it's not good and so they0.99
00:03:27.020sit on it for like five six years until they just found well we got to get it out there so they
00:03:32.500published it and it shows that essentially um a diverse ethically and culturally diverse
00:03:40.900countries actually have very low social trust um even down to the local uh local level um and
00:03:47.560there's all sorts of research on this i mean even in like businesses it's basically people admit
00:03:52.320deep down in the academic journals that diversity in in the workplace actually doesn't add any
00:03:57.980benefit despite the propaganda um in that area from businesses to the military is just not shown
00:04:05.860to actually increase effectiveness so i i wanted i talked about that i mentioned i i uh discussed
00:04:12.420some of the research on that which is pretty conclusive um and then i also uh talk about
00:04:18.760the united states so we tend to think that the united states from its very beginning was intended
00:04:23.560to be a sort of multi-ethnic um state or multi-ethnic uh people meaning basically meaning
00:04:31.940that there is no ethnicity or cultural group that is more american than anyone else that's the idea
00:04:39.400that we've all been taught for our entire lives most people actually i'd say everyone's lives at
00:04:45.280this point uh and um that that's that's kind of our ideology but one of the things i wanted to
00:04:51.300show is that actually from the beginning that was not the case um and that uh the founders
00:04:56.920were self-consciously they understood themselves to be british or at least stem from the british
00:05:04.080and even this sort of american self-consciousness there was early on both in the founding i'd say
00:05:10.900in the early american republic a sense of um a peoplehood that was around a ethnic core that
00:05:18.780that you can call uniquely american some people have called it like a sort of britishness on
00:05:24.320steroids or like a uh so there is something kind of distinct but also rooted ancestrally in a british
00:05:30.620a british um uh ethnos and so that was the core and so they they considered that particularity
00:05:37.960uh to be um necessary to uphold the universal so when we think of the american
00:05:45.400like political uh political thought we think of these very universal ideas of all men are created
00:05:51.960equal you know they have natural rights so these things are universal if natural rights are natural
00:05:57.560that means that each human being has these rights and so we've taken that recently in the last i'd
00:06:04.300say 50 years to say essentially that's all it means to american is to affirm the propositions
00:06:09.300but the founders and i would say well into the 19th century even into the early 20th century
00:06:13.840Even past World War II, I'd say, the predominant thinking was that there's a cultural particularity, a people that undergird those, affirming those propositions.
00:06:27.040So to believe in natural rights, to believe in sort of American liberty, to believe in religious liberty as the kind of Anglo tradition affirms it, to believe in equality, those sorts of ideas stem and are supported by a cultural particularity that people have identified as Anglo-Protestant.
00:06:48.420So it's both rooted in English, but also it's a, it's the product of a Protestant tradition that I'm sure we can get to. But that's what I was trying to get at is actually, okay, multiculturalism is bad. And oh, by the way, we as Americans are not committed to multiculturalism in principle.0.93
00:07:07.440We are actually committed to the idea that we have a people and we have a place and we have ideas that are associated with those people.
00:07:17.800And we cannot expect everyone around the world who are not part of that political, that essentially Western civilization, but even kind of people who are not Western European to affirm those ideas, at least not readily.
00:07:36.320So they, they can't just show up to America and all of a sudden they affirm the propositions and then they're, they're exactly one of us as historically understood. So we're not actually historically committed to that as good Americans.
00:07:48.160um and i i mean yeah and so that that's kind of the over the that's what i'm saying is that we
00:07:54.400actually should as americans say there is a core ethnicity or there is a core culture
00:08:00.220that is an open culture meaning that people can assimilate into it so it's not bound by
00:08:06.780perfect genetic markers as if you're this sort of you know if you're too if you're too german
00:08:11.820you're out that's not that's not the um the principle nevertheless it is uh there is a core
00:08:18.460way of life um a core heritage to which newcomers should conform and that is necessary to maintain
00:08:29.580our old american principles so all those principles that the old people the older
00:08:34.140folks love that they heard from reagan um and and uh all those core conservative principles
00:08:40.540we talk about of liberty and freedom and justice for all and all that those are actually undergirded
00:08:45.220by an old american conception of people um that is not as universal as we are taught and that it's
00:08:52.660actually that teaching is very new right the the post-war sentiment is uh what you and others have
00:08:58.660referred to it as um so basically your talk in a nutshell was uh multiculturalism is not our strength
00:09:05.800that America from its founding, that was not the intent, but it was meant to be a monoculture.
00:09:13.860And then you went on to say, okay, so which one is it? Which culture? And you describe that as
00:09:19.040Anglo-Protestant. So could you take just a moment and maybe taking those two words and breaking each
00:09:24.760of them down? What do you mean by Protestant? And what do you mean by Anglo? Do Catholics have a
00:09:30.060place and do people who aren't white have a place what does it mean anglo-protestant culture
00:09:35.840yeah so it has a it's it's rooted in a british uh intellectual uh political tradition
00:09:44.300so uh this is explicitly affirmed by the founders so if you look at the continental congress in
00:09:50.3201774 uh 75 76 you'll you'll see them regularly appeal to their britishness and they are actually
00:09:57.980asserting their rights as englishmen so they they're they're self-consciously knew they were
00:10:03.320part of a tradition extending to the magna carta all the way back to the the saxon kings of the
00:10:08.800ninth century and eighth century um so there was a self-conscious britishness to the founders
00:10:15.380uh and it's from a legal tradition or not just well not just legal but also a political tradition
00:10:22.380that you can see reflected uh everything from uh from from fortescue fortescue on law getting back
00:10:30.240to the magna carta which is regular appeal regularly appealed to by people like samuel adams
00:10:34.040um you can see this through uh some expressions through john locke and also religious liberty as
00:10:39.900well so uh and this this ties to the protestantism uh the reason why we as protestants can affirm
00:10:48.240religious liberty is not this sort of, okay, I guess we'll tolerate you guys, you Baptists.
00:10:54.260We're Congregationalists and Presbyterians. I guess we can tolerate you guys even though
00:10:58.380we think you're heathen. That was actually not the Protestant tradition, but within the Anglo world,
00:11:04.960there was a steady recognition that we as fellow Protestants can get along without wanting to
00:11:14.120uh suppress each other and this is even you can see this even in new england in the 17th century
00:11:19.480where they did actually say baptists look you can be part of our churches
00:11:23.080you can be in our churches um our congregationalist church you just can't have your own
00:11:27.080so you see this in 30 in the 1630s 40s 50s 60s uh but baptists of course one of their own churches0.99
00:11:33.720uh but so eventually you see this in the 17 teens that cotton mather is now ordaining a baptist uh
00:11:41.320in there in a baptist church so there is a development where they see okay look we've
00:11:47.400always affirmed that that that a baptist can have the same faith as us in themselves they
00:11:54.360could be true christians and that's why we let them in our churches but now we've realized hey
00:11:58.280we can actually form a civil polity a civil society where we tolerate one another and we
00:12:05.720affirm each other's mutual protestantism and each other's mutual faith that we disagree on things
00:12:10.280And that's all, again, I mean, this is, New England was a few decades later where England
00:12:36.320And the First Amendment actually is an expression of a long Anglo-Protestant tradition of experience, or it was the experience with each other that then developed into the First Amendment, saying we can form a civil union despite theological differences.
00:12:52.640And that's what is expressed in the First Amendment.
00:12:55.320And so that's the Anglo-Protestant tradition.
00:12:57.120It's rooted in Protestantism, which says, so like Roman Catholicism, you have a ecclesiastical earthly head of the church, namely the Pope.
00:13:05.140and to be in to be in you have to be aligned institutionally right that's not true in
00:13:11.720protestantism this is this is why you could you could have the calvinist at least appealing to
00:13:17.200the lutherans and saying lutherans we think your brothers and lutherans just like scoff at us but
00:13:20.820but you know or the same thing with like presbyterians and baptists and congregationals
00:13:25.260and baptists and anglicans anglicans and presbyterians we could all affirm each other's
00:13:30.800mutual faith because we do not believe that you have to be aligned with an institution
00:13:35.520uh a a singular institution um to be in um and so for that reason you can have principled
00:13:43.660religious liberty that as i said affirms each other's mutual faith and that was developed
00:13:49.160within the anglos the anglo world right which comes to expression and comes to i think uh it's
00:13:55.240its ultimate expression is 19th century in america where eventually you have disestablishment
00:14:02.460like i think the the last the last uh quasi establishment is goes disestablished in the
00:14:08.0801830s in one of the states but then you still have flourishing and high religiosity
00:14:12.840and this is what toqueville shows up the united states and he looks around and says wow you guys
00:14:17.760don't have establishment and you have all this high religiosity everyone cares intensely about
00:14:21.540religion and people are attending church and and uh anyone who's an atheist has to remain
00:14:27.320silent about it because it would if it would there's a high social cost uh and they get and
00:14:32.460so it's it it it so it came to this expression with the 19th century that we've lost of course
00:14:37.740but uh anyway i mean there's a lot to say about angle protestantism with the work ethic uh and
00:14:43.860a sense of ordered liberty that comes without a heavy-handed order that's one of the again that's
00:14:50.640one of the unique things about the American tradition is we can have high liberty with
00:14:55.840also high order without a kind of magistrate threatening, constantly threatening to put us
00:15:03.520into order. Right Response Ministries 2025 conference is a go. This is three days,
00:15:13.760full jam-packed conference with eight main sessions, three to four hour and a half long
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00:15:25.880Steve Dace, Jeff Durbin, Orne McIntyre, Stephen Wolf, Brian Sauve, Andrew Isker, John Harris,
00:15:33.260Eric Kahn, Aidy Robles, Dan Burkholder, the Christian Prince himself, Dusty Devers, Ben
00:15:39.520Garrett, Zachary Garris, David Reese, and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin. Again, this is April
00:15:45.9403rd, 4th, and 5th, 2025, and the early registration is open right now. This is the longest conference
00:15:54.020with the most speakers we've ever offered, and yet it is our all-time lowest price. The early
00:16:00.320registration available today is only $140 for an adult. So go to rightresponseconference.com.
00:16:08.400Again, that is rightresponseconference.com to register right now because the early registration
00:16:15.260will not last long. Right. No, that's really helpful. Part of that is just the belief of
00:16:22.200self-governing men, which unfortunately, I think we've lost a lot of that with our current
00:16:29.200population, that men must be governed. And if they won't govern themselves, then you might need
00:16:35.780a heavy hand in America, which isn't really conducive to our founding and the American
00:16:42.640project um but sadly our population has slipped i have two questions so one well on that if i can
00:16:48.560comment on that yeah go ahead i think that's really important to point out so again we have
00:16:52.920this it's overly universalistic conception of of our our way of life uh and so whenever when
00:17:00.240everyone someone like mentions like protestant franco or they mentioned right uh the old the
00:17:06.000old the old you know classical conception of a dictator all that people freak out um but they
00:17:11.860don't realize that again our american principles were designed for people who could self who could
00:17:18.720govern themselves um who could have ordered liberty without a heavy-handed with heavy-handed law we
00:17:25.580don't have those people and anymore and and we don't yeah and we no longer have that uh and it's
00:17:31.280again is undergirded by an anglo-protestant culture and so a lot of people on the right0.51
00:17:36.300are saying well look you'll get our look at the the country now and it's it's foolish to try to
00:17:42.440continue these like these this idea of ordered liberty with self-government if you don't have
00:17:47.740the people for that right like we would all love to go back to times where we could have ordered
00:17:52.600liberty but we can't we can't have that anymore because it's that was undergirded by a particular
00:17:58.260core people right um and once those people are gone once that particularity and that culture
00:18:04.420is gone then well guess what you now men must be governed meaning that like now you need the heavy
00:18:10.060hand of law and this is like this like burke has a great line which i wish i could quote right now
00:18:14.500but it's essentially that people people who can't self-govern are have to be controlled by a heavy
00:18:20.460hand of government you talk about the french revolution um which back then a lot of people
00:18:25.360thought that the french could not actually govern that they didn't they uh a lot of even french
00:18:30.880themselves recognize that they didn't have a tradition of liberty like the anglos did and so
00:18:37.100you get the french revolution people are predicting that it's just going to be a disaster which is
00:18:40.680exactly what happened because they didn't have they had a tradition of of uh royal absolutism
00:18:45.780right whereas the this is what monescue is praising in the mid 18 1700s he's saying look
00:18:52.240i'm french but the model is england um and then you get to the late 1780s and you have the french
00:18:58.780revolution and you have like i said my talk like guvner morris who was a founding father is saying
00:19:03.780look like these people these frenchmen don't know liberty it's going to take time right um so again
00:19:08.820the point is like you can have a you can list the universal abstract rights all day long and people0.95
00:19:14.040could say yay cheer on the lawn but if you don't have if you're not part of a a people whose
00:19:19.060whose experience and tradition and culture can can govern themselves can actually bring about
00:19:27.120order to liberty then it's not going to work and that's that's the state we're in now right yeah
00:19:31.420systems i'm i'm with you systems of government i think have to fit the people and so you know this
00:19:37.360we've talked a little bit like i i am happy and unashamed to wear the moniker of a general equity
00:19:43.340theonomist uh meaning that i don't have you know i would remain i reserve some distinctions from
00:19:49.600some of the og reconstructionist although i appreciate rush dooney and a lot of what he
00:19:54.520said, and Bonson, but I would be distinct from them, and I would kind of give that disclaimer
00:19:58.400of general equity, lowercase t, theonomist. But what I'm saying is that sometimes the OG,
00:20:05.460you know, hardcore capital T, theonomist, Reconstructionist, not only do they say,
00:20:10.060well, you know, the general equity of the civil codes given to Israel, these things need to be,
00:20:15.360you know, they need to be legislated in governments and in all places and all times,
00:20:20.720but sometimes they'll go even further than that and say that the Bible actually prescribes
00:20:24.780not just laws, but a particular form of government. And I would reserve that. I do think there are
00:20:31.460some basic principles in terms of not just laws, but forms of government, representative government.
00:20:36.580I think of Deuteronomy 18, you know, and there's, you know, guys over, you know, Jethro, the father
00:20:41.360in law of Moses over tens and fifties and hundreds and thousands. One thing that I will point out
00:20:47.440with that is a lot of guys will say, you know, we shouldn't vote for Trump because he doesn't,
00:20:52.120you know, it's a low bar. We're not saying he has to be a perfect Christian or a Calvinist or this,
00:20:56.000that, and the other. But he's got to meet at least this, you know, this gracious standard that God
00:21:00.020put forth through Jethro, you know, to Moses and Deuteronomy 18. But I would say, which is you
00:21:05.720love justice, you don't take a bribe, those kinds of things. You could not even be regenerate and
00:21:10.200still meet the standard. And so that should be the standard for our elected officials, you know,
00:21:14.840and the president would be one of those. And I would push back on that and just say, number one,
00:21:18.840that's the standard given to Moses to appoint these men. That's different than in our two-party
00:21:24.840system. Once we've gone through the primaries and all these things, and we have two candidates
00:21:28.560before us, right? Politics is the realm of the possible. There's two candidates that can actually
00:21:33.100win. And neither of them, you know, meet this Deuteronomy 18 standard. And it's not Moses.
00:21:41.120it's not a prophet monarch type figure from on high who gets to pick down. It's all the people
00:21:48.460at the bottom picking up, choosing up. And one of them will be chosen. There will be, you know,
00:21:54.640it's not going to be, hey, well, I guess we just don't have a president this year because nobody
00:21:57.720meets the standard. No, you're going to have one. And so that's why I think the lesser of two evils
00:22:02.320comes into play in Deuteronomy 18, which I think is a great ideal standard. I think it's very
00:22:08.220different in that being a standard for Moses as a monarch type figure to choose and select down
00:22:14.780than for us, you know, in a representative democracy type thing, the people to choose
00:22:20.300up. So all that being said, my point is, yes, there are some principles you can glean, I think,
00:22:25.240from the scripture in the Old Testament, some major principles of, you know, forms, not just
00:22:30.600laws, but forms of government like representative government. That said, I like republics. I think
00:22:37.820republics are ideal. Um, but as Benjamin Franklin allegedly said, you know, you know, what did you
00:22:42.940give us a republic? If there's a condition you can keep it. And I think the, you know, the jury
00:22:48.160has come back in the verdict is here. Uh, we did not keep it. And, um, and I don't think that we
00:22:53.540currently have, and this is unfortunate. I'm not happy about it, but I don't think we currently
00:22:57.900have, uh, the quality of people required in order to sustain a republic. So, so this whole, you
00:23:05.140Protestant Franco or monarchy or whatever. None of these things, I don't know anybody on the right
00:23:11.820or dissident right or whatever you want to call it, New Christodom, whatever. I don't know anybody
00:23:16.140who's giddy about it and saying, yes, this is what we've always wanted. We never wanted a republic.
00:23:21.260We've always wanted a king. I don't hear that. I hear people saying, you know what, it's just time
00:23:27.780not to make something happen. It's time to simply recognize what already has happened. We need to
00:23:33.520know where we currently are and not just deal. We can't afford to have this five-year-old idealism.
00:23:40.960We need to put our big boy pants on, grow up, be an adult, recognize the times, where we currently
00:23:46.140are, and what our people are currently suited for so that we can get back to the ideal. So I think
00:23:53.680a representative constitutional republic is still the ideal. I'd love to see us have it,
00:23:58.800but we don't have it now we have it in pretense but not in practice and i don't think that we're
00:24:04.440qualified for what do you think yeah i don't think that's a crazy thing right wing watch will pick me
00:24:10.380up saying these kinds of things you know and like oh my goodness this right wing extremist and i'm
00:24:15.540like what world do you live in like we don't have a high trust society i can't put um uh fruit in in
00:24:22.280in a cart on the on the street and a little sign that says take one banana and leave 50 cents and
00:24:27.660Like you, you, what America do people think we're living in?1.00
00:24:32.280Joel, the hysterical women at a right wing watch are losing their minds right now.
00:24:38.760They need to pop some more pills, but, but yeah, no, I mean, it's just a, it's a, it's
00:24:44.680a, one of the most basic, I mean, you pick up any, pretty much any text in the Western
00:24:50.260political canon going all the way back to Plato's Republic and it's you'll see different
00:24:56.160regime types and uh and the regime some of the regime types take on their own character and they
00:25:03.900shape the way that people think but also they just the reason why these regime types work so
00:25:09.420regime types usually like you know king or aristocracy um or sort of democracy and there's
00:25:15.300others but that's a basic idea like why do you have these different regime types and it's because
00:25:20.800well this one this particular type is actually more suited to the people than another type
00:25:26.860and this is this is not just some pagan saying this i even i found this once in uh pagans or
00:25:33.260pagan uh calvin's uh calvin's commentaries and of course it's among the founders and everyone
00:25:39.340affirmed this uh and it's it's the idea that you the form that that uh that not every form
00:25:47.760fits with every sort of person or people and that some people can be at one point a king would best
00:25:54.880suit them and then the few generations later an aristocracy or democracy or whatever would best
00:26:01.720suit them or you know a republic is probably better to say than a democracy right and this
00:26:06.500is just basic stuff uh it's really just as as time and kind would say it's just basic stuff
00:26:11.200in the tradition uh and and we we should recognize that so if we move away if as a people we move
00:26:18.820away such that the form of government is not actually producing good i mean that's the purpose
00:26:24.740right so this is when people think people have to realize is that the form of government this
00:26:28.920also includes laws um customs everything if if if none of that if that together is not actually
00:26:36.040producing good then something's wrong and and it needs to be changed like it's it's it's a
00:26:41.660the form of government is good only insofar that actually produces good if there's something
00:26:47.160unsuitable about it or ill-suited for the people and it produces their bad well then something
00:26:53.000needs to change but the purpose of the system is what it does not not what particular label is
00:26:58.600assigned to it well this is public education okay but what does it actually accomplish oh well it
00:27:04.080trains kids and indoctrinates them to be gay and communist the purpose of the system is what it0.66
00:27:09.400actually does yeah and also it's not it's not just good in itself absolutely so if you take0.76
00:27:16.200like just take our constitution our constitution is is good as a sort of wise document for the
00:27:21.820people that it governed initially but the question is is it is it absolutely good such that um even
00:27:30.000if it ends up not working for people you have to retain it same thing with republic or like just
00:27:35.400just saying everything has to be a republican form of government or has to be a democracy
00:27:39.320um is really treating the form as the end in itself right but no one in no one in history
00:27:45.840i mean this this is like again why we're weird no one in history has affirmed that the form of
00:27:52.140government is an absolute absolute necessity even if it doesn't suit the people right so again this
00:27:59.780is just that the founders thought that the our system of government was well suited for a people
00:28:06.400of self-government and an order of liberty right they and if it was a different group of people
00:28:13.580they would have produced a different document uh right so we can't have this absolutist
00:28:19.300view of of the form of government now i'm not like saying right now we have to change the form
00:28:24.580government to be clear but but we just have to get away from that thinking that there is a sort
00:28:30.140of perfect that there's a there's the perfect is the only thing we can have right um whereas
00:28:35.740oftentimes as again the tradition and basic stuff the the perfect is the enemy of the good and since
00:28:42.040that the perfect can actually produce bad because because the people aren't perfect or it's not
00:28:46.100suited for them they're not ready for it it's just so much of it reminds me of parenting it's like
00:28:50.680the ideal, the ideal as a father is that, that my children would be self-governed and I would
00:28:59.280be able to have a high degree of trust with them and be more lax in regards to rules for the
00:29:05.920household and expectations and that they would just get it done. The problem is that my children
00:29:11.640are currently six, four, three, and one years old. So that's not, so the ideal, you know, I mean,
00:29:18.760that's what I'm working towards. We'll get there by God's grace one day. That's what we're working
00:29:23.360towards. But here's the irony. Putting the ideal into play today, ironically, often ensures that
00:29:35.220the ideal is never accomplished tomorrow. If you put the ideal, the ideal is not always the means
00:29:43.100to the ideal. There's usually another means that shapes and forms and prepares a people,
00:29:51.620whether it be children or whether it be a populace, you know, of a nation. It's usually
00:29:55.840some other regiment that serves as the training ground that prepares people for the ideal. It's
00:30:02.020not just ideal from A to Z, it's Z is the ideal and there's other steps along the way. And I think
00:30:09.380of even the american project you know guys is well this is the best form of government and and i'm
00:30:13.320even willing to to concede that point say i i i could be wrong i'm fallible but yeah i like it i
00:30:19.500i like a constitutional republic i think that's great if the people you know are are conducive
00:30:23.960for that um but but people say you know and that's been our our thing from the beginning it's
00:30:28.940like okay but these people didn't just grow on trees they weren't hanging in midair they didn't
00:30:32.780just appear americans didn't just the founders and the covenanters and the you know the pilgrims
00:30:37.800and the Puritans, they didn't just appear. And that's your point that I find so refreshing and
00:30:42.380helpful. These aren't people that just grew out of American soil one day and popped into existence.
00:30:48.320These are people who transitioned from another place and another heritage and a thousand years
00:30:55.600of history, namely this Anglo-Protestant heritage from Great Britain. And the funny thing is,
00:31:03.140um what's the thing that prepared for generations these people and their posterity to one day
00:31:09.180be in america and have this constitutional republic uh what's the thing that prepared
00:31:13.600them for centuries in england a monarchy isn't that interesting yeah well i mean more than that
00:31:20.440too it was it was um it was the people's interaction with the monarchy i mean some
00:31:26.860of the major events in the history of england going back to the magna carta was the the people
00:31:32.540or the you know the the various powers um having a conflict resolution conflict and then resolution
00:31:39.540so that's essentially what the magna carta was same thing with the the glorious restoration
00:31:44.080um in 1680s um and so i mean even the english civil war was essentially a war of course against
00:31:51.360the king so there there was this tradition of resistance which again is what the uh the
00:31:57.880founders appealed to so it was monarchy but it was also this interaction with monarchy and so
00:32:04.760and then and then add to that the the nature of the new world was explicitly from the very beginning
00:32:09.580you see this reflected in early massachusetts bay colony this like rejection of aristocracy
00:32:14.660that was rooted in a kind of puritan um puritan religion essentially and uh and so self-government
00:32:23.960uh minus uh without aristocracy and then you get into the founding where you have a george
00:32:31.040washington who could have if he wanted to just become the king of america uh and he denied that
00:32:36.820and they called him mr president um not king or some royal title uh and so there there that
00:32:44.260uh and with that there was again a development of ordered liberty that didn't need this sort
00:32:50.060of aristocracy i mean people have said like why why was there why was there so much trouble in
00:32:55.480france and there was so much trouble in um in germany and in the in the 19th century and a lot
00:33:02.880of people think it's because of the stability of the monarchy uh and that people could look up
00:33:07.760this is like a an old what's his name bad badget or bad shot i forget how to say his name but it's
00:33:13.340an old claim of of of england that the modern people could look to the aristocracy and kind
00:33:18.880of have a sort of stability and that's what's held england together for so long uh but in america we
00:33:25.320didn't have the aristocracy but still kind of held together i mean you have the civil war and other
00:33:29.120things but but generally speaking the idea of ordered liberty existed apart from these uh these
00:33:34.880these kind of aristocratic figures i mean you have you have andrew jackson's and lincoln's and that
00:33:39.560sort but but still that that's the that's our tradition um and you you wonder now if we could
00:33:46.160still have that without a figure this is one reason why i brought up the idea of a christian
00:33:50.140prince in my book and that was that we need some guy to be a unifier um and but within the
00:33:57.780tradition the american tradition people think when i say a christian prince they a dictator
00:34:03.080i'm thinking some sort of like some sort of modern form of dictator right i really in our
00:34:08.560tradition means someone like george washington right so someone whose own presence he was a tall
00:34:13.780man he sat in and um in the federal convention debates that produced our our constitution
00:34:19.180as presiding and he didn't say much but his presence there it added to legitimacy added
00:34:25.520to the gravity of the event his support for it of course helped he did two terms and then humbly
00:34:30.960said i'm done right and even decades afterwards people would have a little on their mantle they'd
00:34:37.000have a little image of george washington as if he was the guy who held the country together he knew
00:34:42.740it he knew that he was a type of cincinnatus who um he was a sort of as my envision a christian
00:34:49.700prince who is the embodiment of the people but he also had this again this anglo protestant um
00:34:56.480humility to say i'm not going to become king or dominate you guys even though i could probably do
00:35:03.380that i'm going to retire and go go back to the farm uh and he did that and he established that
00:35:09.620tradition ever since so that's the sort of people person i'm talking about this like the classical
00:35:14.880notion of someone like cincinnatus leaving his farm to solve the the issues of the day to for
00:35:22.840the people to then rally around and solve it and then go back and that's the genius of our system
00:35:28.500or the genius of our tradition the anglo the american anglo-p Protestant tradition
00:35:32.920is that you have a sense of duty mixed with the type of humility to then exit when you must
00:35:38.760right um and someone like fdr violated that and all that but um right but uh but you have the
00:35:45.000george washington's and that's my notion of an american christian prince right no that's good
00:35:51.400and we still have those systems but the problem is that that's not just like that's not just a
00:35:55.580form or a system of a guy who comes in and has a humble presence presiding over these things and
00:36:01.100you know courage and you know all these and and then when he's done he doesn't try to hold on to
00:36:06.660power, but he lets it go and is content to go back to the farm. That's not just a system. That's a
00:36:11.760certain type. That's a high caliber man. It's not just the system. It's the person. We don't have
00:36:17.280those people. Instead, we have boomers who want to take organ donors and AI and live forever0.84
00:36:29.340and never let go of power. Meanwhile, they can't control their bowel movements in a public speech1.00
00:36:36.520like that i mean that we're nowhere near is the the exact opposite of george washington you know
00:36:41.800again so at the leader level and then at the people level at the populace in in both regards
00:36:46.580it seems like one of the major problem is we just don't have the people we don't have that caliber
00:36:50.980of of man of person um for the current form of government that we have yeah and uh and
00:37:01.260yeah and unfortunately the the sort of people we have in mind to rise up in the younger0.98
00:37:09.220generations are being in a way held back by by the boomers and and others i mean you just see
00:37:14.720in the church when i when i talk about having you know young men fulfilling their potential0.70
00:37:20.120in all aspects of their life not only spiritual not only mental but also physical you see these
00:37:25.920guys lose their minds as if like oh it's nichian uh you know like me us encouraging people who are
00:37:31.20020 to maximize the potential of their youth right violates the boomer mentality of you know it's
00:37:37.900it's as if they they prefer everyone to be fat yeah and weak and like just obey like whatever
00:37:43.580the the church ladies say um instead of being strong and assertive and physically you know
00:37:49.920mentally and physically fit uh for for that um to to serve their country and people it's it's like
00:37:56.780anathema and so it's very unfortunate it's as if they're trying to hold back then prevent the rise
00:38:04.280of of of a greatness that does tremendous good in the world right it's a i don't like the word
00:38:11.100gnostic toss but there is a sort of gnosticism there that there's like this there's a spiritualism
00:38:15.560side so it doesn't matter if you're fat or get trampled on by the church ladies it that's all0.98
00:38:21.520kind of good in a sense because you're denying yourself or something it's it's a perversion0.78
00:38:25.820and subversion of uh christian truth um and so what we well you know what i'm trying to do what
00:38:31.860i know you're trying to do and other people is encourage younger people guys who are like i
00:38:35.240don't know how old you are but i'm 40 41 trying to say hey look like if you're 20 you don't need0.73
00:38:41.060to be fat and lazy and weak. You don't need to do that. Like you should, you should seek to do0.64
00:38:47.580within the limit, within the limits of your capacities and capabilities, try to maximize
00:38:51.880yourself in the, I wish that I did that when I was 20 and you get older and you're like, well,
00:38:56.820yeah, I should have done that. So I'm saying, look, like youth is good, like, and take advantage
00:39:01.680of it, um, to develop yourself and be the best person you can be. And I think if we have that
00:39:07.540kind of environmentally of that sort of ethos within the christian world we would have men
00:39:13.540that are just outstanding and great and and uh not not think that i mean i know you're a pastor
00:39:19.580but there is there's this thing this is i beat on this like i'm always saying like you gotta stop
00:39:25.540thinking that like the the pinnacle of greatness is being a being a pastor being a pastor is
00:39:30.600wonderful it's great it's essential it's like crucial for people's like um uh for the good
00:39:35.940life to submit to a pastor but at the same time it's not there's other forms of greatness there's
00:39:42.620greatness in politics there's greatness in athletics and there's there's all sorts of
00:39:47.500things that you can achieve in a christian life and you can do these other things and most people
00:39:52.080are best suited for those other things and not being pastor uh and but in the evangelical world
00:39:56.780it's like you get a job and your job is so that you uh have enough money so you can do your like
00:40:03.260your international missions trip twice a year yeah anything else you talk about this in your talk
00:40:08.320it's like people think that everything is purely instrumental for some spiritual end when actually
00:40:13.140no there's earthly goods here of inheritance of self-development that actually can produce
00:40:18.260tremendous amounts of good right and those things do serve a spiritual end but the spiritual end is
00:40:24.240not always global missions it's not always um simply eternal salvation of individual souls
00:40:31.380There are, it's not just that there are spiritual ends and then there are temporal earthly goods.
00:40:37.720It's no, there are actually, there's a multitude of different spiritual ends beyond just eternal
00:40:44.880individual conversion and justification.
00:40:48.440Even with the gospel, you know, Owen, John Owen talked about how, you know, justification
00:40:53.900is the heart of the gospel, but it's not the end of the gospel.
00:40:56.680The end of the gospel is not just being reminded again and again of justification by faith.
00:41:01.380alone. But the end, purpose, aim of the gospel is not justification, but rather communion with
00:41:08.380the triune God. That all of this is serving the purpose of being able to eternally belly up to
00:41:15.200the table, the wedding supper of the lamb and commune and dine and feast and fellowship with
00:41:22.480the triune God, enjoying fellowship with him forever. And so even in terms of spiritual ends,
00:41:28.700it's not just conversion it's never less not saying it's something other than or less than
00:41:33.260but it's more than merely conversion so these temporal goods whether it be physical training
00:41:39.460which is of some value and that's part of the the problem is that we um yeah we we just we're uh
00:41:46.800we have this because it's easy it's easy to just say all everything else is of no value this one
00:41:53.020thing is of ultimate value. Uh, that's actually really easy. Like there's the, um, the old
00:41:57.700moniker. Uh, I had a friend who had the tattoo and he deeply regrets it, you know, but it said
00:42:02.200that moderate moderation is for cowards, which is a really foolish saying, you know? So it's0.95
00:42:07.820basically like just, you know, pick, pick one or two or three things and go all in and then
00:42:12.720everything else don't do it at all, which is not, it's not a Christian idea. The Christian idea is,
00:42:18.460no, there's actually like a thousand things. And they're not necessarily of ultimate value.
00:42:24.180And there's a triage and some things are more valuable and spiritual things are of eternal
00:42:29.360value. But it's not as simple as just saying, hey, everything's a distraction, leave it entirely
00:42:34.640alone, pick these two or three things, give it everything you got. That's actually easier.
00:42:39.940that appeals, I think, to apathy, a lazy person, a lazy man. But in reality, the actuality is that,
00:42:49.660no, there's like at any given point in my life, there's probably a thousand things that have
00:42:54.780varied degrees of value. And I'm expected to weigh through these things with discernment
00:43:00.580and wisdom and give 30 minutes here and three hours there and 20 minutes. So physical training
00:43:06.860is not of ultimate value. It's also not of no value. It's of some value, which means I need
00:43:12.200to give it some time. And that's just one example that the Apostle Paul cites, but I think there
00:43:18.080are a million different temporal goods that could fall into the some value bucket, that category.
00:43:24.980And to figure that out and then to give the things of some value, some energy, and some time
00:43:30.900is a lot of work, which is, I think, why pietism appeals and Gnosticism, you know, appeals because
00:43:39.460it's easy. It's actually easier. It sounds really good, but it's actually way easier.
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00:46:18.860Yeah, I mean, one thing is that we tend to treat these goods
00:46:24.140is kind of like zero sum in the sense that if you're devoting your attention to politics
00:46:28.740or some issue that you care for well then you must then not be devoting your attention to
00:46:34.440something that's higher in value and so we kind of have this zero sum mentality and this is where
00:46:39.600like what we call the jesus juke comes in it's like you really care about this one issue that's
00:46:44.040kind of more of a temporal thing i guess or earthly thing and then but oh you care like you
00:46:49.380like you caring about that means you're not caring about these other things like these more spiritual
00:46:53.600things so it's like a zero-sum mentality and there is a there is a legitimate like concern a pastoral
00:46:59.340concern like if someone's intense about an issue a good pastor would be like okay look i affirm that
00:47:04.280you care about this i think it's good you care about this but let's make sure that it's not a
00:47:08.640distraction from something that's more important so you will say you will you will affirm that it's
00:47:15.340good that they care about an issue but at the pastoral concern is that make sure it doesn't
00:47:19.520distract from these other things as well um nevertheless it should never be oh you shouldn't
00:47:24.980care about this issue intensely because then you can't care about these other things intensely
00:47:29.940right uh and right and so that that's like the the jesus juke and pastors can do that sometimes
00:47:36.280they're not thinking clearly um but yeah i think you're absolutely right like you have these there's
00:47:40.480there's a bunch of different goods out in the world and to to be a complete person is not only
00:47:46.900to be you know hyper spiritual but it's also to be a good a good father that provides material
00:47:52.820support for their family i mean that means you have to go outside and work usually and bring
00:47:56.760home money and then that all that that's that there's a good there that and it's a duty um same
00:48:01.860thing with duty to your your parents um you know uh and uh and duty to your community to your church
00:48:09.680to your church and their their material needs there's all sorts of goods that we have to kind
00:48:13.580to devote our attention to um and to devote one like as i that we become a quasi hermit you know
00:48:19.340like one of those old those hermits of old where they essentially distance themselves from society
00:48:24.020to focus on their own particular spiritual like desert fathers or something like that yeah yeah1.00
00:48:29.500or they end up neglecting the the completeness of of your duty so you they fulfill the principle
00:48:35.620but but miss all the secondaries right which then means you fail you fall short um so and so that's
00:48:43.360that's the problem but yeah i mean um and what i say is like yeah when when you are united to
00:48:50.500christ you you justify but you're also restored meaning that the things that the things of this
00:48:55.900life the faculties have been restored in in him such that you can now actually act um as a as
00:49:04.240intended by by god you know meaning that you can't act perfectly you're not never going to be perfect
00:49:09.400in this side of life, but you still are regenerated. You still are, in a way, definitively
00:49:15.500sanctified. And so then what does it mean to be human in this world? It's not only to do spiritual
00:49:21.400things or to go to church and worship God, it's also to labor, to have a vocation that you do
00:49:28.100well at and that you do good to others through that vocation, not only directly in the service,
00:49:33.140but also in acquiring the means to support those who depend upon you. So all those things are just
00:49:38.940the, so we're restored to do these things. And so they're part of a, part of our duty. And I would
00:49:45.300say for the one reason, like, well, why do I need to be physically fit? Well, I mean, you don't have
00:49:49.920to be a bodybuilder, but I mean, to be a bodybuilder takes a tremendous amount of time.
00:49:53.740And, and so you could actually be doing other things. I'm not saying don't, don't be a body
00:49:57.960builder, but I'm saying we shouldn't think that we should think that, that if like, if, if you're
00:50:03.620like a builder, for example, or a construction worker, you can't devote two hours a day to go
00:50:08.060working out you have to have your your strength to do construction right so right uh the point
00:50:13.660being that um uh but whatever it is you should be fit such that you can aid and be of service
00:50:19.240to your neighbor and have the one thing i realized uh when i moved to the south when i moved to
00:50:24.700louisiana for several years um is that one reason why these guys like have big trucks i mean part
00:50:31.280of it's a cultural thing but it's also the people like owning trucks because they can be resourceful
00:50:37.120to others what i found is that whenever i needed some help there were just guys open up oh i got
00:50:42.600my truck you can borrow it i'll come over and i'll help you with this stuff it's to be useful
00:50:47.100person to your neighbor for your friends and others to have this this uh this resource um
00:50:53.660and so that's what i mean like you you be fit and you you have these things in service to others
00:50:59.120that's why i'm scared to get a truck steven because if i get a truck then i i think people
00:51:04.780in the church are gonna every saturday ask me to help them move that is true yeah um no that that's
00:51:11.660really helpful um these are my last two questions and then you you can maybe do your best to answer
00:51:16.320these and then any concluding thoughts and we can land the plane but uh just for the listener i know
00:51:21.440what you mean and so i think you know uh yeah i read your book took me a second to figure it out
00:51:26.940i saw you know your infamous tweet uh that everybody was you know denouncing and like how
00:51:32.380could you, you know, the lone bulwark tweet. And I, you know, I didn't have, I'll say it publicly.
00:51:37.760I did not retweet you and say, this is insightful and undeniably true. I also did not retweet you
00:51:46.580and say, oh my goodness, let me clutch my pearls. I was like, I'm going to let that one, we're not
00:51:52.280ready for that one. In a couple of years, you know, now time in the province of God has, for the
00:51:57.640most part, vindicated you. I mean, you've gotten, a lot of people have come around. It's pretty
00:52:01.620crazy how the overton window has moved so quickly to where something so controversial that never
00:52:06.240should have been but was um has now people like oh yeah that's not crazy at all that's just the
00:52:11.980statistics of you know voting patterns and speaking not of individuals but group dynamics and
00:52:16.320anyway so all that all that being said i know what you mean i read your book i've been watching you
00:52:20.560online you know we've had a little bit of conversation in person and um and i think i'm
00:52:26.520just kind of on that same trajectory um theologically and politically and those kinds
00:52:31.040of things. But for the listener who may not understand some of these things, it was helpful
00:52:38.060probably for guys in the audience during your talk when towards the end, you said, here are
00:52:42.720some of my favorite Anglo-Protestants. And you said, well, like Booker T. Washington or Clarence
00:52:47.980Thomas. And then also, so one, first question, two questions. First question, how is Clarence
00:52:55.540Thomas, and for the listener, if you don't know, he's a black Supreme Court justice married to a
00:53:00.840white woman how you know and very conservative and one of the best supreme court justices we
00:53:04.820have and we're grateful for um but how is he an anglo-protestant and then secondly when you say
00:53:09.680ethnicity uh you know even in your book you know one of the things that i was able to pick up on
00:53:15.020i guess a year and a half ago now um but i was like he's using ethnicity the way that dead guys
00:53:20.400used to use the word um we've boiled we've truncated the word ethnicity to exclusively
00:53:27.040referring to color pigment shades of you know skin pigment pigment but used to ethnicity it
00:53:35.580seems as though it had a it was much more encompassing it baked into ethnicity was culture
00:53:41.520and customs and nationality and that's one of the problems because in the old world you don't it was
00:53:47.780uncommon in my i maybe i'm wrong but in my perception you didn't have a lot of countries
00:53:53.520like america japan is japanese you know and and so when you say you know japanese it's like well
00:54:00.520are you referring to ethnicity or nationality and the answer is yes because it's just it's both and
00:54:06.160china is the same way and the sudan is the same way and you know and so it's really not until
00:54:10.960very recently in terms of human history and predominantly in the west and and most you know
00:54:16.580most blatantly in our country, in America, that we've severed nationality from ethnicity. So
00:54:23.580ethnicity just means color now, and nationality means citizenship and these kinds of things.
00:54:29.580So anyways, all that being said, how is Clarence Thomas an Anglo-Protestant? Because we're talking
00:54:33.920about culture and not just pigment. And then on the pigment topic, what does the word ethnicity
00:54:40.600mean? How would, how would you advocate for guys, you know, using that word and entailing in it
00:54:46.860more than just color? Do those questions make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When I, when I
00:54:52.740chose to write the chapter on the nation, I did use the word ethnicity instead of race and instead
00:55:00.580of, instead of culture. And the, the reason was, is that, is that culture strikes me as too much
00:55:09.060like uh like oh we all agree in the same culture at that moment so there's a sort of snapshot in
00:55:14.940time type mentality like when you think of culture not necessarily um but then race also doesn't work
00:55:21.940because there's you could have a bunch of like white folks who are actually very different um in
00:55:27.080terms of their culture and their national so the difference between french and english is just
00:55:31.980really striking uh or just between hungarian and and english uh would be very striking and different
00:55:37.840And so it wouldn't make any sense to use race, but ethnicity, the reason why I use it the way I did, which refers to culture, but also ancestry. So I wanted to connect because of course it matters that your people, that you are connected to this place through generations going back.
00:55:58.260so i of course i'm connected to the united states because my grandfather was in world war ii
00:56:04.140of course i mean i i am i'm connected because he fought a loved one fought in that in that major
00:56:10.360that major kind of national struggle or you know my grandparents went through the great depression
00:56:16.800as kids like these history things the history we learn in the books is not simply the these
00:56:24.060random things that are these things that happen to these humans i'm now studying on a page
00:56:28.040it's people who are my ancestors my loved ones um so of course like and your ancestry matters
00:56:34.680i mean imagine if you i mean everyone or a lot of people have had experience with
00:56:38.800hey this is my grandparents house or their property and even if they no one even if you
00:56:44.540don't know who owns it now you'll drive by that and you'll see it and you'll have a sort of
00:56:48.740affection for it because it embodies the the the life and activity of your grandparents
00:56:55.280so in napa california my my uh the the wolf side of my family owned the wolf ranch and i remember
00:57:02.980driving up the driveway to go to christmas parties and seeing aunts and uncles and cousins and having
00:57:08.440this great time and now it's not owned by the family unfortunately anymore um but uh i still
00:57:15.240occasionally when i when i'm going back to napa to see grandmother from the other side i drive by
00:57:19.960and they still have this little wolf up that's called the wolf ranch and the wolf holiness star
00:57:23.940all that and so there's affection there's an affection there built into memory so of course
00:57:28.320like that place my dad my dad and his and uncle and grandfather built the house that there with
00:57:34.200their own hands wow so we don't own it i don't know even know who owns it now um but if that
00:57:39.340house burned down i would i wouldn't lose anything materially but of course i'd lose something else
00:57:44.820and so what i'm trying to describe in the book is that something else that there is that that
00:57:50.940thing that is in a way like emplaced or embodying the place and so of course like your ancestry0.99
00:57:56.520matters i mean uh people call that like blood and soil but are you just are you are you dumb i mean0.99
00:58:03.400like who like who who who can be so kind of insensitive and lack the affection of seeing0.99
00:58:11.940a field or a battlefield or um or some house even a shack that your grandparents or great
00:58:20.740grandparents lived life in or on or whatever like who can be so unfeeling that they wouldn't
00:58:27.800have something some connection to that that is beyond property rights or something like that
00:58:33.840right uh and so yeah that's that's what i was trying to get like so ethnicity
00:58:37.120is that a rhetorical question because i have an answer boomers boomers is the answer yeah
00:58:41.320yeah um yeah that's a property right and it's worth this much money and that's all it is
00:58:47.360no i'm just kidding yeah not all but a lot yeah and to the credit of like our generation i think
00:58:54.020millennials started to try to recover something um a different mentality on that yeah uh even
00:58:59.820though we recovered all sorts of bad things too but right uh but yeah so of course it matters and
00:59:04.680and so um and that means that like it your connection to the american people if you take
00:59:09.780that broader your connection to the american people and our history does it does matter that
00:59:16.520your ancestry goes back into that uh and this is why if your people were germans back in 1810
00:59:23.320i mean you're just as american as anyone else because you have been here interacted and lived
00:59:29.360with this and you've participated in the major events since you since you got here there's a
00:59:34.340there's you have an actual connection to the people in the place and you've probably intermarried and
00:59:38.380all that um and so yeah so it matters but at the same time our my way of ethnicity is not entirely
00:59:47.280just a ancestral like genetic thing genetics thing and this is why you asked about clarence thomas
00:59:53.460i also mentioned santiago pliego who is a actually born in mexico and now he's here and he's american
01:00:00.020citizen naturalized citizen and you talk to him and it's like he he desires not only that he can
01:00:06.660be sort of grafted into this american heritage but also that his kids will be as well he wants
01:00:12.140his kids to be just as american as me or in you and anyone else so so the ethnicity then is like
01:00:20.700an open thing in that the people who come here or existed here but are but are self-consciously
01:00:29.460kind of bringing themselves into that heritage and want to be part of it not subvert it not
01:00:34.820undermine it not like hold on to the other stuff but like become one of us assimilate um and they
01:00:41.380can be and i think and i think like even santiago could be like yeah my people is like george
01:00:46.780washington yeah like so i and this is again this is like the american i don't think this is me being
01:00:52.160sentimental i think that's just the the american tradition has always been very open also very kind
01:00:58.360of like exclusivist and and what the left would call xenophobic but also uh when people come here
01:01:04.580this openness to conformity. But that's the problem. The problem is that America was open,
01:01:11.240but it was open to people who wanted to be American. They wanted to join. Now America is
01:01:17.460open to people who have no desire. On voting ballots, there are voting ballots in some places
01:01:24.840where you have three languages. If that's not a sign of a nation that's just utterly defeated,
01:01:30.580then I don't know what is. Like, we're going to have this voting ballot in Spanish. Why?
01:01:39.060We're English. We speak English. We're Americans. And so to have some measure of
01:01:45.480principled openness is great, but it's not an openness to come here and still be a Somalian.
01:01:51.820No, it's to come here because you love America and you want to be American, right?
01:01:55.600right it's it's the desire yeah so you can either you can either yeah you can come here
01:02:02.920and kind of exist as a as a kind of um as like a second culture but uh but not the core so you you
01:02:12.400would essentially be you you'd have a a tolerated way of life but it wouldn't be the part of the
01:02:18.060core or you can actually kind of bring and graft yourself into the the the core and and that's what
01:02:25.440i mean by i mean even i mean clarence thomas of course he's he's he's descendant from from slaves
01:02:32.440so uh and in a way like when we talk about heritage americans it's it's proper to speak of
01:02:39.380um even the kind of sort of black subcultures that are here um the reason i i would say that
01:02:45.900that he that clarence thomas is part of a sort of angle protestant ethnos is that he has from
01:02:55.000from what i can tell self-consciously said i'm american i'm and um and this is this is this is
01:03:01.560who i am uh and so he's kind of brought himself into that um i mean this is why people call him
01:03:07.020like you know the oreo and all sorts of horrible names uncle tom uncle tom all that and that's
01:03:12.120what it is it's it's p this is the same thing like webb du bois would call like booker t washington
01:03:17.220is yeah people hate him because he yeah because he's an anglo-protestant yeah they call him that
01:03:23.260because they have identified angel protestant as as only as essentially a white man's uh which
01:03:30.760broadly speaking in terms of population has been right um but but then they just say oh you're just
01:03:36.540you're no longer black and now you're white right um but and there's no i mean there's no truth in
01:03:41.400that in itself but it is recognizing like when they accuse people like soul and uh clarence
01:03:48.000thomas and others of being those things they are recognizing rightfully that they have actually now
01:03:55.140that they are they are part of the the core american ethnos and that's why they want to0.92
01:04:02.520denounce them and call them all those names uh they'd prefer that they're no longer or not in
01:04:07.860that core and they would be a sort of like secondary stream of of american ethnos but not
01:04:14.300i mean the the core the core has always been anglo-protestant and uh but again it's an open
01:04:19.840ethnicity such that you can have like like a antonin scalia uh he is a italian roman catholic
01:04:25.400and he has this great story you can watch as a minute and a half and he says that he was in it
01:04:30.200no he's in italy first right he went to italy he was in and then he went to england yeah yeah right
01:04:38.060he was in he was in like um continental europe for a while from from switzerland in italy and
01:04:43.240then he said he went to england i had never been there before after all those all that time in
01:04:47.700in continental europe and he says he was home like this is home and he was essentially saying
01:04:53.300we're anglo he said anglo-saxon i would say anglo-protestant but we're uh an anglo-saxon
01:04:59.480people even though he's genetically from i don't know southern italy or something like that right
01:05:04.320i know i love that story because it's you know here he is he's american in terms of you know
01:05:09.360both culture and his citizenship nationality, but then he goes to Italy and that's what, you know,
01:05:15.720that's his, his, you know, his blood, his, you know, his ancestry. But he feels more at home
01:05:21.940in Great Britain than he does in Italy. Why? Because, because his whole life he's been in
01:05:27.820America and America came, America is this British project. It's this Anglo, you know,0.97
01:05:34.280protestant project and so naturally his his his italianness uh did not resonate as profoundly
01:05:41.460in in italy as his americanness resonated in in england um so yeah exactly and again that that
01:05:49.380just shows it so it would be again i i don't i don't want us to think that this is just a
01:05:57.780cultural thing as we think it does it does matter i think people need to remind themselves and
01:06:04.220become conscious of this and this is one reason why i emphasize it you need to be conscious of
01:06:08.520the fact that you have ancestry here right like that you need to restore that you may not even
01:06:15.200know like i don't i know that i have like some preacher from connecticut in the late 1600s in my
01:06:20.120my my ancestral line but i don't know everything else but you know what you know what does matter
01:06:25.340though is that literally my great great great grandparents they've been here since 16 something
01:06:31.620and that that matters uh and and everyone here and if it means that you don't have anyone here
01:06:38.320well you're interacting with people who do and you're you are in or you're living life with
01:06:44.600people who do and you can see yourself as as your sort of life project as bringing yourself into
01:06:50.860that to tell i i forget who it was i think adi robe was uh was it him who said that his father
01:06:56.760said we're not speaking spanish in this house we're speaking english and that's because we're
01:07:01.000or become an american so you can deliberately you can do these things to become uh one of us
01:07:07.960but again today that the the the the governing principle now is that actually no you just be
01:07:15.000exactly what you were before and just affirm these propositions take an oath and you're in
01:07:20.520in america is just an idea and an economic zone and reap the benefits without really any commitment
01:07:27.160um but yeah and that is not sustainable and really send a send send send a good portion
01:07:34.780of your income overseas i mean in central and south america it's amazing how much of their
01:07:39.220economies are actually sustained by people in the u.s sending money back and so the incentive
01:07:45.040structure for so anyway yeah that's for south america but then when it comes to ukraine
01:07:49.340we send money through tax dollars you know or israel you're right you know but no that's that's
01:07:55.020really helpful i'd like um just as you you know the the whether it be uh clarence thomas thomas
01:08:00.380soul i mean even votie bacham would fall into this category but that was helpful thinking uh
01:08:04.760because i watched the documentaries i don't know if you saw them there was an uncle tom documentary
01:08:08.500and then an uncle tom too and and they were helpful and uh especially the second one i really
01:08:13.480like the second one they had votie bacham in it a lot and um but it's helpful to think like okay
01:08:18.160what is this accusation, this pejorative, this being levied against, you know, black men who are,
01:08:26.740you know, like Clarence Thomas, Anglo, you know, Protestants that have really adopted and fully
01:08:31.660committed and assimilated into this American heritage and love it and identify with it. And,
01:08:37.440you know, and so they're being, you know, cursed and demeaned because of that decision and because0.68
01:08:41.780of that assimilation. And, you know, what, but what's contained in this, you know, pejorative
01:08:47.120of uncle tom that's being levied and i think one of the things that's you know two things that's
01:08:51.040being contained one is that there really is a hegemony there really is a a core culture of
01:08:56.960america and it must be the dominant culture if not then we're just fractured and splintered and
01:09:01.600a house divided against itself cannot stand it's just not sustainable so there one there really is
01:09:06.760a core culture and that core culture is anglo-protestant and the fact that that's levied
01:09:12.380against a black man whereas it wouldn't be levied against necessarily a white man we just say0.99
01:09:17.100hey, I hate whiteness. But there'd be a recognition of like, but of course you're0.99
01:09:21.000white because, you know, of course you're acting like an Anglo-Protestant because you're white1.00
01:09:24.420and I hate it. But with a black man, it's the levied charge of Uncle Tom is basically a charge1.00
01:09:31.300of betrayal. You're a traitor to your own kind. And what that to me indicates is that not only1.00
01:09:37.660is there a dominant culture in America's history and heritage that's Anglo-Protestant, but that
01:09:42.160that dominant culture has been, in terms of skin color, predominantly made up of white people.
01:09:47.480And it doesn't mean that non-white people can't be a part of it, but it has been majority
01:09:51.520European in terms of color. It has been predominantly white. And that's why someone
01:09:58.460like Votie Bauckham would be accused by the left as being a turncoat, a traitor. That's what Uncle
01:10:06.200Tom means. And so I think to recognize that is not to be exclusive, and it's certainly not to be
01:10:11.640racist, which is a word that just has virtually no meaning at this point. It's none of those
01:10:17.140things, but it is to recognize we are distinct people, a distinct country. We have a heritage,
01:10:23.140a history, a foundation. What is that? What is that culture? Multiculturalism is not our strength.
01:10:29.820We want to have a dominant culture. What is it? What has it historically been made up of?0.97
01:10:36.120And then who all can join, but then in joining, what are the distinctives and what are the
01:10:40.700commitments and what does this entail? All these are incredibly important questions and none of
01:10:45.940these are, they're not colorblind, but they're also not, but they're also, it's, it's, it is
01:10:53.860not a sinful, a sinful racial partiality. It's acknowledging race, but, but not sinfully. Like
01:11:02.440I remember even the statement, I think we showed you or somebody in our, our little crew showed
01:11:07.060you. This was a year half ago, and we're going to actually make it the final draft public. It's
01:11:11.800been forever. A lot of the guys are SBC, and they're fighting for the life to try to keep
01:11:17.220out women pastors right now. But eventually, when all that's done, we're going to publish our0.99
01:11:21.120statement on Christian nationalism and the gospel, the final draft. And one of the things that we
01:11:25.320changed was initially we said, we repudiate the sin of ethnic partiality. And after getting some
01:11:33.060feedback from other guys and thinking through that and thinking biblically about that, we changed it
01:11:38.400to, we repudiate, instead of the sin of ethnic partiality, we changed it to, we repudiate sinful
01:11:44.460ethnic partiality, recognizing that in the realm of partiality, it can be done sinfully, but not
01:11:50.380inherently. And, you know, for Japan to have a preference for Japanese people is not inherently
01:12:00.480sinful. It could be. There can be sinful expressions of that. Just kind of in the same
01:12:05.680way that anger, Jesus says, in your anger, do not sin. So it's not just to be angry is inherently
01:12:10.760sinful, but there is a way in anger to behave sinfully. And that's just, I don't know. I'm
01:12:18.660thinking through these things, and that's just a conversation that right now, the typical American
01:12:23.960just can't handle. They just lose their mind. What people don't get, like when I say things
01:12:30.280like you should prefer your own or you should prefer your own ethnicity as i've as i've defined
01:12:35.160it already but when i say that i'm talking i'm saying that it's actually it it's not that it's
01:12:42.960not that it's it's good in itself regardless of the effects but that it's good to prefer your
01:12:50.700own family your own parents your own children and your own people your own canon group ethnicity
01:12:57.560because of the way that we are made by god that is the way to bring about good so a nation should
01:13:05.400prefer people who are similar because if you bring people in who are similar they can assimilate into
01:13:11.340the collective life of that people just like in like again japan why would i mean japan's slipping
01:13:16.700on this a little bit but one reason why they've preferred have very restrictive immigration
01:13:21.340is to keep japan japanese right as a distinct ethnicity and they knew that wisely knew that
01:13:27.900if you bring in a mass outsiders it'll change the nature of japan and and what's happened in japan
01:13:34.980i mean you go there it's the safest cleanest country in the entire world um and there's been0.72
01:13:40.220recent actually some immigrants my or they've brought in and there's been videos i've seen
01:13:44.340where well not so safe and not so clean um and so yeah so like if the point being is that that
01:13:53.060that um the ability to interact with people not only via language but also through cultural and
01:13:58.640mutual understanding of manners and customs uh and to be able to like just if even people
01:14:06.140with accent i remember i was just just at the airport i was struggling to try to get answers
01:14:10.440and in dallas was like where do i go to get the the the uh the courtesy van and like i couldn't
01:14:16.980communicate with anyone uh because it was just such just like this uh uh you know um it's like
01:14:23.500it's like being in babble and all so right uh no texas is crazy man it's great it's like where
01:14:29.760where am i yeah yeah and um anyway the point being is that that there's actually good there's a there's
01:14:37.940good it's good to be around people where you can communicate as as well as possible so that we can
01:14:45.540all achieve not only collective projects but your own individual project or what you're up to at the
01:14:49.660moment so i like again americans have to get like everyone christians have to get out of their mind
01:14:54.800this idea that like preferring your own ethnic group is some good in itself that we ought to do
01:14:59.540no it's like if you if you just look at not only the social science data but your own experience
01:15:04.640you'll see that you gravitate towards people who are similar precisely because of the good involved
01:15:10.220in that the good in effect and that's what my argument that's my argument from the book0.92
01:15:15.060and but people just i don't know if it's race brain or what it is but they're incapable
01:15:19.340of of seeing that even though they experience it nowadays daily right almost daily they experience
01:15:26.720the difficulty of being around difference just like just language alone you you call a helpline
01:15:32.220you know whatever yeah technical support you know because your webcam's not working or
01:15:36.740and like this like the almost audible sigh of relief that i'll have uh when when the person
01:15:44.480who answers on the other side of the line uh speaks coherent english you know and i'm just
01:15:48.700oh phew you know because because i know we you know that so much has been outsourced and
01:15:54.180especially with technical support and those kinds of things and hotlines and
01:15:58.000support staff. And I know that I've got like a 90% chance that the person who's going to pick
01:16:03.700up the phone, I can barely understand. And so it's just, if nothing else, I mean, God even
01:16:11.480says that in Genesis 11, that if they remain united, one people, that there's nothing they
01:16:18.720cannot do. And therefore he confuses their languages and not, it is a judgment, but it's
01:16:24.440a judgment with mercy baked into the judgment pie, because really what it does is it gets
01:16:29.780mankind, it doesn't throw them off the rails. In their sin and arrogance and pride, they were off
01:16:36.420the rails. God's judgment of confusing their languages actually gets them back on track with
01:16:40.860their original design. Like they actually say, it's not just a sin of arrogance saying, we'll
01:16:45.060build a tower to the heavens, but it's also a sin of direct rebellion to the command given in the
01:16:50.500garden to be fruitful, multiply, and to spread out and fill the earth and subdue it. They say,
01:16:55.040if we do this, not only will we make a name for ourselves and ascend to heaven and be on par with
01:16:59.120God, but we will let us make a name for ourselves so that we will not be scattered over the face
01:17:04.920of the earth, aka so that we will not fulfill the very command that God has given us, which was to
01:17:09.720spread out and to fill the earth. And God's mercy, it is a judgment for their sin of arrogance,
01:17:14.320but it's also a mercy of them trying to not obey God. And the judgment at Babel is God0.90
01:17:23.280working as a catalyst to really just not to put man now on some track that was never the intended
01:17:31.780good or purpose, but it's actually as a catalyst, man had gotten off track because of sin and God
01:17:38.580now in a catalytic way puts them back on track of spreading out over the face of the earth and
01:17:45.100then naturally out of that comes certain distinct distinctions and and cultural distinctions and
01:17:51.180uh you know and and that's um and that's a good that that is a natural good and the other thing
01:17:57.460about that story people i don't think you'll pick up on is like they they could they could
01:18:02.600achieve their their project even though it was like it was sinful in orientation they could
01:18:08.160achieve that precisely because they were the same people like they spoke the same language right
01:18:13.020like you could achieve great projects i mean they're they use greatness to evil ends but you
01:18:18.220can use you can achieve greatness to good ends and how do you do that well you have to be able
01:18:22.700to speak each other's language perfectly i know it turns out that like once no one speaks the
01:18:26.580same language you can't actually fulfill and achieve the same project so if you have this
01:18:31.140this uh if you essentially recreate you know the post-judgment babble on in america well sorry you're
01:18:38.060not we're not actually going to achieve any sort of natural greatness for good right uh national
01:18:42.780yeah so and if that the story itself should communicate to us that you need to have similarity
01:18:47.960in order to achieve anything great amen and without it you actually can't you yeah one last
01:18:53.000biblical example for for the listeners because i am after all a pastor and so i you know but one
01:19:00.300one other biblical example that i i'm i'm sure you know you've used a million times but just
01:19:05.540thinking of the Apostle Paul, there's an order of loves. There's a hierarchy and prioritization
01:19:12.920of commitments and affections. And Paul doesn't say, hey, for the Cretans, I'd be willing to go
01:19:19.240to hell. But he says for his own people, Romans 9, for my own kin, my own kinsmen according to
01:19:27.640the flesh, I would be willing to be cut off from the riches and the mercies of God if it might
01:19:32.880somehow reconcile them, save them. And then, you know, back to like benefits, right? Like,
01:19:37.780so like physical training is a, it's not ultimate value, but it's not no value, it's some value.
01:19:41.960Well, then he talks about, you know, the value of heritage and ancestry, you know, and particularly
01:19:46.600of the Jewish sort. And he says, you know, well, you know, if it's, if salvation is for the Gentiles
01:19:51.880and for the Jews, and it's not, you know, it's according to the promise and not according to0.71
01:19:55.140the flesh, then of what benefit is there in being a Jew? And you would expect him to say, like,0.82
01:19:59.200it feels like he's building it all up to say, none, you know, boomers for the win and, you know,0.51
01:20:04.020race doesn't exist. But he doesn't say that. He says, well, actually, what benefit is there in
01:20:09.520being a Jew, even though you can be saved as a Gentile and co-heirs of grace and all that?0.74
01:20:14.820Well, there's still much in every way. There's a benefit in being a Jew for theirs is the law1.00
01:20:19.360and theirs is the prophets. And so then I think of that like in an Anglo sense, you know, like,1.00
01:20:24.620well, if, you know, the white race is, you know, not superior and doesn't have any special promises0.92
01:20:32.560or, you know, Christianity 2.0 or, you know, we can get salvation, you know, not just salvation,0.79
01:20:38.760but salvation, you know, twice. We can be saved three times or, you know, if there's none of that
01:20:43.500in the eternal, spiritual, truest, ultimate sense, well, then of what advantage is there in0.92
01:20:48.200being, you know, of European descent? And I feel like I could answer that much in the way0.93
01:20:52.760scripture does, Paul doesn't say, well, much in every way. For theirs are the reformers,
01:20:57.460theirs are the Puritans. There is a, like Paul says, here are the prophets and here is the law0.99
01:21:04.100in our history. And even though currently we've rejected that history by the Jews rejecting the0.93
01:21:09.920prophets, killing the prophets, and then killing Christ. And yet still, that's part of our story.0.97
01:21:16.520And it's a good story. It's a great story that the prophets are in our lineage. And I think for
01:21:22.000the european to say um that you know that calvin you know and and luther and you know that the
01:21:28.800reformers and the puritans are in that european lineage and to identify with that and to be proud
01:21:35.280of that um and not a sinful pride but but a good sense of pride these are my people this is my
01:21:41.860history um and and i just don't think it's a coincidence that all that can be defended
01:21:47.040biblically without being sinfully racist. But the whole world, including much of the church right
01:21:54.680now, wants to demonize that and wants to get particularly young, straight, white men to hate
01:22:03.240their ancestors, to absolutely disobey the fifth commandment, to hate their fathers and to hate0.94
01:22:09.320their mothers and to hate their heritage. And when somebody's trying to get you to hate something
01:26:39.560I was saying if we're talking about fighting and the art of war, then that's the only time I hear
01:26:44.660the yeah certainly there's like some crossover no yeah absolutely but but i mean just in general
01:26:50.240in general when when someone cites aquinas or they cite monescue um they they there's a sense
01:27:00.420in which there's some authority there even if you disagree there's some seriousness to it
01:27:05.960um that needs to be contended with right and and that is true because this is our tradition
01:27:12.700and these are the great books that have arisen in that tradition and should be taken seriously
01:27:17.080but that'll be different in different places um but but unfortunately either like you go to your
01:27:22.940class at like your classical christian school or or college and they'll say oh these just have
01:27:28.420objective human worth and that's why they're in and that's why there's movements to like include
01:27:32.360international works like non-western or in the canon or in the the curricula because now they're
01:27:38.920they're following the logic like well why are you excluding these others if it's just objective
01:27:43.740human merit and not something about inheritance but we need to get back to saying no art no like
01:27:49.320this is this is ours because they're not as good see i would say i you know i this is controversial
01:27:55.460but i would say it's both i would say uh the great tradition western tradition is um is of
01:28:01.040immense value because one it's ours everything you're saying it's ours um also uh what's ours
01:28:06.720is also best. And I believe that. And I think part of the reason I believe that is because
01:28:11.600C.A., it's ours. And I'm a descendant of this tradition. So naturally, of course, I think it's
01:28:18.040best. So one, it's my tradition. But two, I believe that my tradition is the best tradition,
01:28:26.480probably in part because it's my tradition. Yeah, I mean, exactly. And I don't think there's
01:28:31.680anything wrong with that um right and even when even when there's there's things that would be
01:28:36.560kind of like people say well why why do we focus on uh like uh the works from ancient greece when
01:28:43.120they're so far away from england and there's an argument there but the fact of the matter is
01:28:47.300everyone read aristotle everyone read plato and so how can you understand your own even like from
01:28:54.600scottish to to anglo to english to french to italian spanish how can you even understand what
01:29:01.920they're saying if you haven't read aristotle's ethics or his politics or um you know plato's
01:29:07.700republic so uh but yeah yeah so uh so um affirm your tradition love it and uh don't don't let
01:29:16.280someone say that it's don't don't let them villainize you for saying this is we love it
01:29:22.280because it's ours and it's inheritance yeah don't like don't let the uh the bug eating pod
01:29:29.460living regime uh yeah convince you to disobey god and the fifth commandment and hate your father0.85
01:29:38.060and mother that's a sin we that that's a sin so steven thanks for your work and uh thank you for
01:29:44.240being willing in a lot of ways to kind of uh be a bit of a trailblazer i mean none of it's really
01:29:50.460new if in the big picture of going back to dead guys you know um but uh but in our particular
01:29:56.180moment in time sadly we've gotten so far off the rails that uh the things that you've been saying
01:30:01.560uh to a lot of you know people today uh are heard as though they're completely novel and nobody has
01:30:08.080ever had the unmitigated gall to say such a thing you know before and and yet um you seem perfectly
01:30:14.000content to say those things stick to your guns not back down and then you know and then in your
01:30:20.440free time, go hang out with your kids on your farm and play with goats. And it's great. I mean,
01:30:26.860your ministry and the way that the Lord's using you is great because you're providing the cover
01:30:31.900fire for guys like me and some of the guys in the pulpit, pastors. And we need, like you said,
01:30:37.000more than pastors. But you as a non-pastor and being in a little bit less of a cancelable position,
01:30:43.380um you're using you're you're utilizing that um that position well and providing some cover fire
01:30:50.020and i hope that more pastors will wake up and see uh the cover fire you're providing and the
01:30:55.420trail that you're blazing and take advantage of it instead of uh just turning on you and lobbing
01:31:00.860grenades um but i i don't know i don't know if you feel this way but as a bystander looking in
01:31:07.020it does feel hopeful that you know that the tide is turning a little bit do you feel that way
01:31:12.200Yeah, I think absolutely. Especially among the younger generations. I think there's some dangers among the younger guys, I think, because they're so unmoored from a lot of things. But there's also a lot of opportunity to kind of, they can break out of some of the ideology that you see in the older generations.
01:31:32.380um but yeah i mean i appreciate i appreciate what you have to say and i i try my best i i do in the
01:31:37.820spirit of the fifth commandment i do have to credit my father for um make for leading me on
01:31:44.020the the path to um become the sort of thinker i am today so i give credit a lot of credit to him
01:31:51.240for that praise god all right uh last thing how how can people follow you uh any any projects on
01:31:57.220the horizon boy i do have an event in uh are you i don't know yeah in texas yeah it's like the the
01:32:03.400blue the true texas conference it's in dallas okay um cj angle is going to be there cool this
01:32:09.640is going to be there um i like cj yeah that's in uh yeah and paul gottfried so we're speaking of
01:32:14.640that already got media inquiries about how you know you know there's there's nefarious people
01:32:19.340there wolf are you you sure you want to associate with those people um but uh i didn't reply back
01:32:25.660of course but um i usually mess with the journalists a little bit i i try like i demand
01:32:31.300that they call me dr wolf and all sorts of things uh it's kind of fun um but dr jill biden if she
01:32:37.680can demand then i think yeah right you're good yeah um yeah oh so also twitter you'll see me
01:32:43.560it's uh i won't try to give you my twitter handle but you know you'll see me i'm the guy with 20,000
01:32:48.900followers um and that's that's about it but yeah i have articles american reformer the my speech or
01:32:55.040talk at the ogden event will be published there right it's on patreon now if you're a club member
01:33:00.760on on their patreon new chrysidham uh new chrysidham press.com slash patreon or something
01:33:07.860but it will be available to the public and then lastly though uh you uh you're starting your own
01:33:14.660youtube channel right you want to plug that yeah i'm trying to do that more uh trying to improve
01:33:19.260you know all around quality and all that but yeah it said yeah you'll find me there um i think it's
01:33:23.920like sm wolf i think it's or steven wolf maybe okay um i don't know i don't know youtube as
01:33:29.380well just google steve steve wolf on youtube i'm sure yeah you'll find me um and uh yeah you can
01:33:34.640see me there as well yeah i'm trying to i'm trying to do more of those videos great well
01:33:38.580thanks for your work and uh thanks for coming on the show today appreciate it