THE INTERVIEW - The Divine Council & Mt. Olympus - ICYMI with Doug Van Dorn
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 9 minutes
Words per minute
174.81255
Harmful content
Misogyny
1
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Toxicity
9
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Hate speech
26
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Summary
In this episode, Pastor Andrew Isker and I talk about the divine council, the history of the Bible, and how it relates to the modern world. We also talk about what it means to be a Christian in the 21st century.
Transcript
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And here's a couple clips just to whet your appetite.
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And so our entire moral framework is based around 1930 and 1940.
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Every failure to confront the bad thing is Neville Chamberlain.
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That's the only moral framework that we have that is operable.
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So the moment that a young man crosses the aisle
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eyes rhetoric doesn't work any longer. And he's just noticed too much because it really is that
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blatantly obvious. And he has nowhere else to go. And he crosses the aisle. Well, the moment he
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crosses the aisle, there's no reasonable, wise, mature leader over there. You would just have the
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guys on the TV telling them, this is what the Bible says. You have to believe this, right? On
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the radio, the Christian radio stations, you'd only hear those guys preaching that particular
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thing. When that is actually, when you look at all of church history, that's the minority
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view a tiny minority view the rest of theological history in the church is that you know is the
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kind of stuff that we're saying yeah this one's a banger again go to patreon.com forward slash
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right response ministries to get all nine parts ad free right now available today
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applying god's word to every aspect of life this is theology applied
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All right. Well, let's talk a little bit about Heiser and some of his conception and some of
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the work that you've done working off of that with this divine council. Can you explain that
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to our listeners? What's the divine council and where do we find it in scripture? Really,
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the main focus of his book is to talk about the divine council. Like I said, the Nephilim,
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the angel of the Lord. These are subtopics underneath it. So the divine council is
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essentially the idea that there's a group of celestial heavenly beings that rule over the
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affairs of the cosmos. And if you want an analogy from Greek mythology, think about the Olympians.
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Now, the problem is, of course, as soon as I say mythology, people, especially in our world,
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they start to go crazy because they hear the word myth and they think fake fiction lies all this
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kind of stuff and my understanding of mythology has changed dramatically i think c.s lewis has
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been very helpful to me to to understand this in some ways tolkien as well both these guys were
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just incredibly steeped well-versed in a ton of mythology yeah um you don't know if you know it
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But Tolkien gets a bunch of his names for the dwarves from the poetic Eda, the Scandinavian myth.
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So that's just kind of an example of they're taking these stories and they're just kind of reapplying them.
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But my understanding of a myth is that it's really just an origin story.
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It can have over the course of time, you can have changes in it.
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So you can have contradictions in Greek mythology because they've changed the stories or they've heard them differently or whatever the case might be.
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I mean, these things are so old, they go back before any kind of written history.
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And they're a vehicle that can stand the test of time that can help people understand where their origins are from.
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So that's why Heiser's original title for his book, The Unseen Realm, was actually the myth that is true.
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he's trying to convey the idea that the biblical story is a myth in that it's an origin story and
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it's got it's got mythological um ways that it's working on our psyche when we read it but it's
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true it's actually history um i think that probably you know i i actually believe fairly
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strongly that zeus was a real character and his name is actually in the bible as either satan or
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bail depending on the testament that you're in i think that those are all the same entity
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when somebody hears that they freak out because they've been taught that you know mythology is
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false there's nothing true about it how could you possibly say that zeus is real but as soon as i
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say well he's actually satan he's actually bail now bail might bother some people because they
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might not think he's real either he's just an idol well that's not true but it's funny because
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none of our people in the reformed world would say that satan is anything other than a real
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supernatural fallen entity they understand that so to make that connection and i think that you
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can make pretty strong biblical case a biblical case for it that these are all the same entity
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uh it really discombobulates a lot of people so yeah the mythology things get twisted and turned
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um but when you find certain myths especially when you find universal myths like like
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every flood like the flood yeah then then you're probably you know maybe some of the details
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like you take it with a grain of salt put your discernment hat on you know don't be naive but uh
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but if you start finding the same story um in every place and every time period and every like
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then there's probably something true there and so the idea of like giants is uh you know it's just
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a universal whether it's jack and the beanstalk or you know but like giants and one element of
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of giants that you find universally is that they're typically not friendly giants. I know
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an interpretation can be made, and I'm partial to it with Abraham and a couple. But for the most
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part, they're man-eating giants. And then what is Cyclops? I mean, think about that. It's like,
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okay, it's just a complete made-up story. Or maybe a giant that was injured and left on an
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island you know it only has one eye because the other one was poked at like i mean it's entirely
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possible so anyways yeah so uh the giants you know in the divine council worldview a giant is
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essentially um it's a nephilim so that's a genesis 6 and it's a son of what are called sons of god
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and in our we'll just for sake of argument we won't go through the this tonight you know
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arguing for why we would believe textually that this is the case.
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And the sons of God have different titles in Scripture.
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You only find this word explicitly or certainly in Daniel 4.
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But when Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, the watchers come down out of heaven
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and say that it has been decreed upon you, Nebuchadnezzar,
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that you're going to live like a wild animal or whatever that decree of the watchers is a decree
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from the divine council so these these watchers um other people might be more comfortable just
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calling them fallen angels uh over time the the term angel actually became it changed it more of
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like just like any word really does in the in the early part of the old testament and angel is really
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just a messenger. So it's a function. By the time you get to the New Testament, an angel really
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almost becomes an ontological category. It's, you know, it's a type of being. So when people get
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upset, you know, with certain words that you could use for these guys, I'll just say, well, it's a
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fallen angel. And then that kind of takes it off the table. Probably the biggest word for these
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guys in the Hebrew is the word Elohim. They're called the Elohim. This is a word that's used
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for god and it's used for the gods and again um people will say well the gods aren't real
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but if you understand that the gods are actually fallen angels they're created entities
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they're not on any kind of an ontological par with the uncreated creator of the universe he
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made them right if you can get that into your head right then you realize you have to understand
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we're not talking about equals there's not at all one one god who is uh eternal infinite and who
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created x in the helo uh he made these other gods he made them all and in fact colossians
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says that jesus is the one who made them all and it it goes very very specifically that he made
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everything in heaven and on earth why would it go why would it care to tell you that what he made
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in heaven well maybe so that you don't get confused about these guys somehow being equals with him
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because they're not ontologically equal with him at all right right so uh yeah so that's what it
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that's what the divine council is this found all over the place um some of the best known passages
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at the end of i think it's first kings 22 it's a really good one this is where you have uh the
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prophet micaiah hears uh the overhears or sees in a vision this heavenly scene where um god is
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having this argument with these other heavenly beings over what they should do with King Ahab,
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I think it is. And he says, who's going to go and be a lying spirit? And they have a fight over it.
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And finally, one spirit says, I'll do it. So God says, okay, go ahead. You will succeed in doing
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it. What they're doing is they're having a council meeting in heaven. They're arguing about things
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over the earth. And then once the decision is made, then they go out and do it. And God has
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the final say on it. You see this in, what's another good one? Daniel chapter seven. This is
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where the really famous verse that New Testament uses quite a bit that one like a son of man comes
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riding on the clouds of heaven to the ancient of days, and he's presented a kingdom and all
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dominion authorities given to him. Well, right before that you have this, it gives you a description
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of the heavenly court it talks about the throne it talks about the ancient of days it talks about
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a river being there and it talks about the thrones that are around it and the books are
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opened well what's that who are on these thrones it's the heavenly beings it's the divine council
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we i mean boy there's just a there's just a ton of them that we could think of
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would you hold would you hold all the way like another example for you would you be
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one of the guys who would say that like genesis one and two in the creation narrative um like
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let us make man in our image that that's trinitarian language or that's divine council
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language uh my answer is yes to that okay i won't create an either or the reason why is because
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the father and son are certainly on the divine council so and the holy spirit's always present
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when the sun is present so de facto the trinity is there but it's bigger than the trinity if i
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was going to go to prove the trinity from genesis 1 which i think you can do very easily i'd go to
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the first three verses i wouldn't even i wouldn't even make it all the way to chapter or verse 22
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or whatever that is 26 um because if god you have the spirit hovering and then you have god
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spoke the word and very clearly the new testament tells us who that word is right so but yeah i
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I would say that the let us make man in our image is the divine counsel having a meeting.
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But then the second verse, it says, and God made man in his image.
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So the way Heiser talks about it is that it's like if we all, if I said to a group of people, hey, let's all go out for pizza.
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I'm speaking to a group of people, but then I buy.
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I'm the one who, I'm the one who does the, does the work.
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so so talk to me a little bit about and to our listener about um the idea so something that
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fascinates me that i i would love to learn more about is the idea of regional powers like thinking
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of you know the um it's the archangel michael right it's not gabriel it's michael who gets
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held up with the prince of persia no it's actually gabriel it's oh it's gabriel okay so it's gabriel
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um he's like sorry i was i'd be here sooner but uh you know i had to do battle you know against
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you know this this power that uh that was had a locale it seems like an earthly locale like
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in a particular principality and that word principality so there's princes and principalities
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like princes would would be spiritual beings with authority and then the principality would be like
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a province or a state or a region exactly so so is so my question is when when the fall happened
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I'm not talking about Adam and Eve, but the angelic fall.
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And it seems as though there's maybe a case to be made that they were assigned,
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or maybe they were already assigned by God and then fell to their various regions.
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Or did they fall and then a captain among them, Lucifer, appointed,
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you're going to be over Chile, you're going to be over Persia.
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How does that work, this princes and principalities?
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Okay, so the key text there is really Deuteronomy 32.
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And let me just call it up real quick so that we can read the text.
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generations ask your father and he will show you your elders and they will tell you when the most
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high gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind he fixed the borders of the
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peoples according to the number of the sons of god the textual variant there says sons of israel
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some people might have a new american standard bible will say sons of israel but dead sea scrolls
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and septuagint say sons of god and heiser makes a very good argument that that's the original reading
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The number of the sons of God there was understood throughout all the tradition as the number 70.
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Targum is a Jewish paraphrase into Aramaic of the Old Testament.
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So some of them can be very, very strict and very close to the text,
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almost like just a really good translation that we have.
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and the one of the more expansive ones in in genesis the deuteronomy is targum pseudo jonathan
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and it gives the number 70 there is a good example well why is that significant because
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there were 70 nations at the tower of babel so when moses tells you to remember the days of old
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he's telling you to remember tower babel now for him that was a long long time ago and moses for
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us was a long time ago so this is a this is a really long time ago but according to that text
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anyway and it's really the main one that we have of the timing of it the sons of god were given to
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the nations at the tower of babel and it seems to me that it's because what happened was that
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and i we were talking earlier before the show about you know the divine incursion view of how
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did the nephilim get on the earth after the flood there's four or five different views out there one
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is that you know the dna was carried through by maybe one of noah's sons another one is that it
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wasn't a worldwide flood another one is that and so some of the giants lived through it another one
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is that um maybe somebody like aug the giant lived uh by uh hitching right on noah's ark and that's
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kind of a gilgamesh hanging on to the side of the ark and noah's feeding him i've seen that one not
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not a fan but it's when you tell the kids when they're three years old right yeah yeah yeah
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And then, you know, I actually tend to think that your view is right, that there was another incursion.
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And I think that that incursion took place at the Tower of Babel.
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So you have to understand what the Tower of Babel was.
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So in order to understand it, you have to go back to Genesis 2 and 3.
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So and then a little bit of Ezekiel can help fill in the gaps there, too, because Ezekiel calls Eden the mountain of God.
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All we get in Genesis of Eden is that it's a garden, right?
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but it's a mountain. And why does that matter? Because Satan is there in the mountain garden of
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Eden tempting our parents. Well, what's he doing there? He's there because it's a divine council
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scene. Consider it Mount Olympus. They're on Mount Olympus. God has created our first parents
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to essentially have a seat on the divine council with the heavenly beings, but they get to rule
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over the earth whereas the heavenly beings are ruling over whatever whatever's outside the earth
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however that works i don't have any idea and actually and this is the only this is the only
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thing i've ever read that makes a lot of sense of why satan tempted them and it's because he became
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jealous of this and so you have whole books like the life of adam and eve in the pseudepigrapha
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that talk about that was at that moment that god made adam and he gave him this dominion that that
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was actually that was the reason why satan fell so that okay so the fall of satan and the fall
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of adam in in this scheme would be very simultaneous to one one yeah two birds one
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stone yeah okay it's exactly right so okay um so the whole point being there that that they're on
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they're in the divine council in fact i think you got actually you can make a case that there's more
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beings there because satan or sorry ezekiel i forget the chapter maybe 31 it's the chapter of
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assyria being likened to a giant tree a world tree and then it talks about how the the trees
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of eden were envious of you well why would it use trees of eden language well that's uh it's kind of
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a metaphor for other heavenly beings and when adam and eve go hiding among the trees of eden
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like what is what's going on there i tend to think that they're seeking refuge among the gods if you
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want to call it that um and god gets very upset by this why are you running away from me what did i
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ever do to you and then he graciously closed them with you know and gives them the gospel and stuff
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but the point is there's a divine council scene it's a mountain the the authority is given there
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and actually even the temptation itself believe it or not is when you look at what the tree of
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knowledge of good and evil is, and you go to say Solomon, and he talks about how it's the duty of
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a king to discern good and evil. Well, what does that mean? It means that it's the king's job to
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make a judicial pronouncement on right and wrong. Well, that's what divine counsel does. And that's
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the whole point of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan's temptation was incredibly
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subtle and he actually tempted them with something that was very true but the problem is that um
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well there's a lot of problems with what happened but of course essentially is that they made the
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wrong decision right um they they went against what god said was right they said essentially
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by eating it they're they're making a judicial pronouncement that what god said is wrong right
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okay and so then they get kicked off now if if moses is if we just take that verse in deuteronomy
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Then what happens is that the whatever happened before the flood and how that worked its way out with, you know, the fallen angels and men and authority.
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But at Tower of Babel, it's really a it's really a trying to get back to Eden.
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But instead of God putting us on his man made mountain, we create a mountain ourselves.
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It's to emulate, uh, what a cosmic mountain is, what a divine council mountain is.
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And then we go up to the top and we try to, um, make communication with the fallen heavenly
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And you're not, I'm going to make your language so you can't understand each other so that
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It seems that Moses is saying, remember this, because that's the moment when I spread the
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nations out around the world that i also gave each one of those nations one of the sons of god to
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roll over them okay are these fallen sons of god to rule over them or righteous i think so
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so there's actually a really interesting passage in the uh i think it's in the creteus in plato
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near the end this is this is where actually where he writes about atlantis and man it's so weird
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because he has a line that's almost exactly word for word what Moses says in Deuteronomy 32.7.
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In the days of old, God gave to the nations according to their allotment.
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And then he goes, we got as Greece, we got Athena and Hephaestus
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because they were the gods that were given to philosophy and beautiful music and basically high culture.
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and of course Plato has this idea that before the flood it where there was a golden age and
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that things were really good and then things got worse and worse and worse over time to the point
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where Atlantis was destroyed because of the corruption in some ways that's very similar
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and so I use that to answer your question Joel because I think I think that the corruption of
00:23:52.060
the angels got worse over time okay just like it does with humanity even just like it is in our
00:23:59.520
in our civilization right now. The last three years are the worst that it's been in our civilization
00:24:04.340
since the beginning of it. It's just gone exponentially off the charts.
00:24:09.820
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I think Plato might have, I think he might have read Moses.
00:27:01.200
I know that it doesn't add up, but I've got some people in my church who,
00:27:04.840
they're more knowledgeable than I am on the subject of, you know, but like,
00:27:08.920
look at you know it it seems like i don't know it's it seems like he had somehow had access to
00:27:15.760
moses the pentateuch or at least a part of it so i i uh when i was doing the angel of the lord book
00:27:23.360
i uh i found a couple of puritans that wrote on the angel and i started reading them got one of
00:27:30.700
these guys name is peter alex he lived in the late 17 1700s a french guy but this dude knew i mean
00:27:38.320
he knew every language you could know he he read everything you could read just absolute genius and
00:27:44.700
he he says in that book that I ended up uh kind of republishing and putting notes on it and
00:27:50.540
modernizing English and stuff for people he says there that um Moses knew or sorry Plato knew about
00:27:58.960
Moses and then he I think he cites Justin Martyr who basically said the same thing so the idea
00:28:04.580
seems to be that you can account for it through his ancestor solon who came down to egypt right
00:28:10.040
and that's where he heard the story of atlantis from the priest there and then it's not that he's
00:28:15.240
taking a boat back to greece he decides to take the long way around and of course in order to do
00:28:19.600
that you have to go right through israel and so there's every reason in the world why he could
00:28:24.880
have brought back um at least the torah and plato could very well have read it yep that's that's i
00:28:33.080
couldn't remember but that's what i heard was yep yeah it was through um how do you say his name
00:28:37.380
solon solon yeah yeah solon his ancestor so long went to egypt that's where he heard about atlantis
00:28:42.540
and yeah yeah it's possible it's a wild world yeah okay so yeah so one so we're saying fallen
00:28:53.000
angels 70 of them and you think it's a symbolic number so it's not yeah yeah that's what that's
00:29:00.420
yeah so like 70 regions 70 nations um and it but it could be 500 each for each of these 70
00:29:09.340
right yeah you can have under maybe a chief guy and yeah that's what why why would the heavenly
00:29:14.840
bureaucracy be any less complicated than earthly bureaucracy right well maybe because they're
00:29:21.820
trying to be more efficient maybe because they want a bureaucracy that works um but yeah but
00:29:30.200
Okay, so 70 regions, nations, and we would say that that still exists today.
00:29:36.000
We have more than 70 nations, but there's still, in a spiritual plane,
00:29:41.320
would you agree that there's still a sense in which the world would break up
00:29:46.980
into those 70 different regions, and there's still…
00:29:50.820
And some of them, like Jude or Peter, may have already been locked up in gloomy dungeons,
00:29:57.180
Well, okay, so the gloomy dungeon part is talking about before the flood.
00:30:03.500
So if you want to think about it, you can think about it this way.
00:30:09.660
But when you go to the Greek myths, they have a flood.
00:30:14.720
And at the flood, they have a great war between the Titans and the Olympians.
00:30:19.720
The Titans are the elder gods, you know, Kronos and Rhea and these 12 Titans.
00:30:27.180
And then the Olympians with Zeus and what's it, Hera and the other 12 Olympians.
00:30:34.520
And the Olympians basically lock the Titans up into Taurus.
00:30:40.020
Have you seen Clash of the Titans, the remake first?
00:30:46.920
It's probably the second movie where they're actually let out of there.
00:30:51.360
Yeah, so it's the second movie because that's the first movie, the Kraken.
00:30:56.440
And, um, so that's what, that's what Peter and Judah referring to is the pre-flood lockup of the pre, the pre-flood antediluvian watchers that committed the original sin of the Nephilim thing.
00:31:12.440
Those guys were locked up and you find this in the book of Enoch that kind of expands on that.
00:31:18.220
And, uh, you know, they're, they're actually locked up for 70 generations, which is a whole nother topic.
00:31:22.860
but um when when you're talking about the post-flood i think that that that's a different
00:31:30.080
story these we're in my mind we're dealing with the olympians not the titans it's the olympians
00:31:35.420
who were somehow put over the nations of the world because titan titans are gone at least for i see
00:31:40.960
i see okay so the pre-flood guys they're the ones who created the demonic hybrid offspring nephilim
00:31:49.400
and and they got punished severely right for locked up in tartarus um and then uh and then it's
00:31:57.500
you have a different group still fallen angels but a little bit more hinged guys who at least
00:32:05.080
at least had the good sense not to try to corrupt the messianic line by you know marrying human
00:32:11.600
wives and those guys are the ones who are appointed at babel over 70 right okay and then those get
00:32:19.720
well if that's the case then it's possible we don't know you know but it's possible that those
00:32:24.520
guys might still be in some level of operation today yeah i have a do you know brian godawa is
00:32:32.380
no so brian is a hollywood um film writer he's written a couple of movies but good reformed guy
00:32:41.240
he's a he's a partial preterist takes 70 ad fall of jerusalem really seriously he he takes the view
00:32:47.680
that the watchers were kind of done in 70 ad that that was actually a judgment upon them
00:32:53.500
so i can't say definitively that they're gone my view is that or that they're that they're not gone
00:32:58.780
or that they are gone my view is that they're that they that he's wrong about that that it was
00:33:03.940
kind of an already not yet judgment um for them at and i think 70 ad probably had something to do
00:33:11.920
with a lessening of their power but i think pentecost had much more of a lessening of their
00:33:17.840
power than 70 ad did right and clearly between 30 ad and 70 ad the these watchers these powers
00:33:26.520
principalities thrones dominions all these words that paul throws around that we didn't even know
00:33:31.280
what we're like, what is this? You know, well, that's, that's what this is. And it's very clear
00:33:36.540
that they're, that they're around at least in those 40 years. And my, my view is that they are
00:33:41.740
still around and that what has happened is my all millennialist, all millennialism coming out.
00:33:47.700
But I believe that, that the power of Satan to deceive the nations is really what the binding
00:33:55.420
of Satan is all about in Revelation 20. So in other words, they're not in the full force of
00:34:01.900
their power that they were prior to the cross and the resurrection and Pentecost, but they still do
00:34:08.040
have power. And so I can say, I have a way of understanding that Satan can prowl around like
00:34:15.020
a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy at the same time that I can say that he's bound
00:34:20.180
because i don't view that bound as an absolute binding like a premillennialist would i view it
00:34:26.660
as as a very specific kind of binding so that god if he wants to save his elect out of any nation
00:34:32.620
uh he can do that without them having to become israelites be circumcised move down to the line
00:34:38.840
of canaan and all that kind of stuff right yeah he's on a leash and he was always on a leash in
00:34:43.640
the sense that you know the the satan you know um is with the sons of god is before the throne of
00:34:49.280
God, Job, you know, and even then he has to ask, you know, permission and God sets very
00:34:57.760
Round two, you can hurt, you know, pound for pound, flesh for flesh.
00:35:00.560
You can hurt his flesh, but you can't take his life.
00:35:02.360
So Satan has always been on the leash because every created creature, ultimately, because
00:35:08.460
God is the only being in the universe that has what we would call, you know, autonomous
00:35:15.460
uh we have you know creatures have a degree of freedom but god is the only one who is truly
00:35:20.880
autonomously free and so satan always was on a leash is my this is my view it was always on a
00:35:26.000
leash and job you know shows us that um but in the cross and resurrection uh it's like christ
00:35:32.920
you know who's always been holding that leash wrapped it around his head yeah and pulled him
00:35:37.900
in a bit like it so the leash got shorter yeah that's exactly right he's still not thrown into
00:35:41.820
the lake of fire that will come later um uh so satan's still prowling around uh but he was he had
00:35:48.340
he had more walking around room you know he had a little more slack in the leash uh pre-christ but i
00:35:54.560
you know i would poke for me i would put most of um the the happenings of of christ uh binding satan
00:36:02.600
you know the strong man like christ even gives that parable you know you're going to plunder
00:36:05.500
the house and i think that's what we're doing that's the new testament church yeah um i for
00:36:09.320
2 000 years has been plundering the house of this world um through conversion and gospel preaching
00:36:14.560
and i think even beyond just conversion and the great commission in that regard but teaching the
00:36:18.760
nations to obey all of christ's commands in in markets and in uh art and in governments and
00:36:24.980
all these different things and through righteous legislation this is kind of um all all of that
00:36:29.900
has been happening because the strong man has been bound and now you know we're going in and
00:36:34.500
plundering the house and with a strong man i think you know a certain bind i think that implies
00:36:38.920
some of you know satan's minions also being in various degrees bound yeah and then for me 80 70
00:36:47.300
i i don't i don't i've never thought of it before i'd have to give it more thought but i've never
00:36:51.480
thought of uh demonic binding in 80 70 i've always put that on like cross and resurrection right um
00:36:57.220
and then and then 80 70 i put that as as a post-mill guy i put that as the fulfillment of
00:37:02.320
christ prophecy you know matthew 24 all of that discourse this generation will not just this type
00:37:07.620
of generation but you know 40 years a generation in jewish terms like you guys some of you will
00:37:13.120
fall asleep but a lot of you are going to be awake and um this is the generation that rejected
0.50
00:37:17.780
me that you know i came to my own but they knew me not um you said you know crucify him may may
00:37:23.320
his blood be on us and our children and so uh before your eyes and your children's eyes i'm
00:37:29.180
i'm going to come back and come in on the clouds joel 2 clouds signifying you know a sense of
00:37:33.760
judgment and josephus even has you know multiple um eyewitness accounts of seeing like you know
00:37:40.240
like silhouettes of chariots going back in the billows of smoke in 87 so that's that's i i think
00:37:46.400
80 70 was this the wrapping up of a garment that the interim 40 year period between you know uh
00:37:52.100
the work of christ and but then now the old coven is really rolled up and completely done and gone
00:37:57.620
away yeah i agree with that yeah that's that's where i'm at but i think the binding of the
00:38:02.940
demonic powers a lot of that may i may be 87 i just but i don't know what about the the sacking
00:38:08.980
of the temple in jerusalem i think he's getting that really from the demons he's getting that
00:38:15.120
probably from like gentry's view of revelation who's going to come out one of these decades with
00:38:20.040
his magnum opus on revelation is commentary that's supposed to be so good from a post-mill view
00:38:25.640
yeah i've heard the tales yeah i know we everybody keeps hearing him all right that's it guys i tried
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It's the idea that when you take that early writing date of Revelation being prior to 70 AD,
00:41:03.500
then now all of a sudden it allows you to be able to see that almost all of the book has
00:41:07.700
been fulfilled. And so if you do that, then you kind of have to start going, well,
00:41:11.360
did 70 AD do something to these watchers? Because you're reading Revelation different than like a
00:41:18.260
futurist you know right would do so or yeah historist or futurist yeah yeah well and and
00:41:25.480
i mean and i do yeah i date revelation i think it's you know was written moments before 87 i
00:41:32.120
think you know these things soon to come to pass 80 80 i would put it 80 65 to 80 69 you know
00:41:37.760
something right in there but um but it's painted even the way that i read other books of the bible
00:41:42.920
now like you know like romans you know and um and some of the things that paul talks about you know
00:41:49.520
with uh future revival of israel not being in their future but perhaps in our past and that's
00:41:54.800
all that's a whole nother conversation but anyway so back to the you know seven so 70 regions and
00:42:00.040
70 honchos and they could each have dozens or hundreds or thousands of minions under them
00:42:05.120
and for what for what purpose god is so god assigns him it's as it's as punishment it's it's a it's
00:42:14.860
punitive it's essentially okay explain so there's there's several different passages in deuteronomy
00:42:19.860
that talk about this there's one in deuteronomy 4 one in deuteronomy 17 one in chapter 29 and then
00:42:25.980
the one in chapter 32 that basically talks about some of them talk about how i gave them to you
00:42:33.960
and then someone talked about how basically i gave you to them and why well it's because you
00:42:40.800
you guys essentially it's you you deserve each other so bad i'm gonna let you just have each
00:42:46.520
other and see how well that goes for you okay all right okay so so it's punitive like babysitting
00:42:52.320
like you're you're stuck with these people yeah i mean if adam was originally given dominion
00:42:56.900
and then he i think what happens is he abdicates that dominion again i don't know i don't know
00:43:02.900
how it worked prior to the flood. But however it comes to fulfillment, it's called an inheritance
00:43:12.540
for the sons of God. So somehow they're actually inheriting because their sons, sons are inheriting
00:43:17.700
things from their fathers. And so this becomes the inheritance. And I actually, I think that
00:43:24.680
the reason why God ultimately does, it's not just purely punitive. That's the myopic view or the
00:43:31.100
view of just why does he do it for in relation to the people or these fallen entities that's
00:43:37.100
punitive but there's a much bigger storyline that's going on if you uh if you read the very
00:43:41.960
next verse it says but the lord's portion is his people and jacob is his allotted inheritance
00:43:51.660
now this is a really crazy verse because because it it uses um the word yahweh yahweh's portion
00:44:00.200
is his people, but it's his allotment. And so there has to be a distinguishing
00:44:08.260
mark between the most high in verse eight and Yahweh in verse nine. And my understanding of
00:44:18.740
it is that the most high, to put it in Trinitarian terms, is the father who's giving this inheritance
00:44:26.100
to his sons and the lord the yahweh in this particular verse has to be the son who is
00:44:34.560
inheriting israel as his allotment and what's so interesting of course is that is that israel is
00:44:42.060
not actually among the 70 nations at the tower babel god creates them out of nothing many many
00:44:48.440
sent you know even centuries later because the whole point of this is that is that the son of
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00:44:54.600
God is going to, at first, get this miraculous nation that God creates out of nothing.
00:45:01.840
It's going to come through the promise of the impossible promise of the seed of Isaac
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00:45:08.160
through the natural birth that comes from a woman who can't give birth and a man who's
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00:45:19.060
And then the promise then expands so that you come to Psalm 2, for example.
00:45:27.340
This is really kind of the way I give people kind of a three-passage rundown of really the worldview.
00:45:34.840
The first one is verse 9, that the Son is inheriting Israel.
00:45:37.880
Then if you go to one of the most famous passages in the Old Testament about Christ, Psalm 2, 7, and 8,
00:45:44.820
I will tell of the decree the Lord said to me you are my son okay so here we have more father son
00:45:50.800
stuff today I have begotten you ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance and the
00:45:58.400
ends of the earth your possession okay so now the promise has been given that it's not just going to
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00:46:04.120
stop with Israel I'm going to give it to I'm going to give you all the nations and then you go to
00:46:08.840
the great divine counsel psalm, Psalm 82, that starts off, God has taken his place in the divine
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00:46:16.980
counsel in the midst of the gods he holds judgment. Next few verses are about how they judged
00:46:22.780
wickedly. Then he says, I'm going to punish you. You're going to die like men. And then the last
00:46:29.080
verse, arise, O God, judge the earth for you shall inherit all the nations. Who's the God of that
00:46:36.740
The verse, it has to be the son because that's what the promise was in Psalm two.
00:46:40.500
And so the new Testament comes into this and it takes, it takes all of this predictive
00:46:45.800
language of the son of God now becoming, you know, and Daniel seven gets fit into that.
00:46:51.540
I'm going to give you the kingdoms of the world and all this kind of stuff.
00:46:53.660
And then what happens, you know, when Jesus rise from the dead and his very last words
00:46:58.540
to the disciples, like in Matthew 28, all authority has been given to me in heaven on
00:47:06.080
our earth. Now go and make disciples of all nations. What's going on there is that Jesus
00:47:10.860
is now receiving his inheritance and it's up to the church to kind of start bringing the people
00:47:16.720
in. But the whole point of this worldview is that it's not an end to itself. It's that Jesus is the
00:47:24.980
focal point of the whole thing. So, you know, you brought up Michael earlier and in our book on the
00:47:31.700
angel of the Lord, Matt and I disagreed on this. And we still do, although I'm moving him more in
00:47:36.760
my direction. But I believe that Michael is the angel of the Lord because he's called Israel's
00:47:43.620
prince. And unless Israel has two princes over him, which is theoretically possible because
00:47:49.800
Plato said that they had two, but it's not what I ordinarily think. If Michael is Israel's prince,
00:47:57.820
then he would be the angel of the lord and um that fits totally with this worldview okay
00:48:05.360
and so you don't you don't hold to the christophany which is you know the view that i'm familiar with
00:48:13.560
that like the angel of the lord you know so like three angels appearing to abraham one of them
00:48:17.620
being the angel of the lord that one is christ pre-incarnate no i do i do believe that it's
00:48:22.560
christ pre-incarnate yes but i believe that he's the angel of the lord and that that's the same
00:48:28.680
that's the same second person of the trinity that who is the angel of the lord that the angel of
00:48:36.220
the lord is the second person of the trinity jesus but then what where does michael come into play
00:48:41.000
he that's a proper name for him he's just a different name so if just like angel of the lord
00:48:47.000
or lord yahweh or name or glory or right hand um or uh you know word word of god in john 1 1
00:48:59.540
these are all just different ways of speaking about who this person is and i think michael's
00:49:04.160
the same way it's a proper name who is like god that's all that it is and the answer is no one
00:49:08.960
is like god right but why michael that i mean that's that's the only thing i'm following you
00:49:14.040
until that like why why would michael be a proper name for the second member of the trinity you know
00:49:20.800
like i why not just call him yeshua as he's been called you know like i i've just always imagined
00:49:27.640
michael as because i mean frankly it's like it gets a little close to what what is it uh mormonism
00:49:33.360
or jehovah's witness where they you know they believe that jesus is the archangel michael you
00:49:37.980
know and that he's a created being and that he's not actually a member of the trinity right yeah so
0.65
00:49:42.800
Well, I think that the Jehovah's Witnesses, they're right and they're wrong.
0.97
00:49:48.240
The Jehovah's Witnesses, in my view, are right that Jesus and Michael are the same thing,
1.00
00:49:53.180
but they're wrong because they make Jesus a created being, and he's not a created being.
00:50:00.500
I think there's some early antecedents to this, and probably the biggest one is in Exodus 15.
00:50:09.080
and uh early in the song you know he's celebrating the
00:50:13.120
egyptian and the pharaoh being thrown into the sea
00:50:16.480
and in verse three he says the lord is a man of war
00:50:20.540
the lord is his name and then in verse 11 he says who is like you
00:50:26.560
oh lord among the gods who is like you majestic and holiness awesome and
00:50:32.400
glorious deeds doing wonders this is not um this is not a passage
00:50:36.720
It's talking about God and his oneness, his bare essence.
00:50:43.820
It's talking about the Son, the Lord who is a man of war, the commander of the armies of the Lord,
00:50:48.960
the one who Joshua saw when he fell down on his knees and the commander said,
00:50:55.880
take off your sandals because the place where you're standing is holy ground.
00:50:59.100
Well, that comes straight out of Burning Bush story where Moses was told the very same thing by, guess who?
00:51:05.640
so when it says who is like you among the gods it's a all michael is is a play on that on those
00:51:12.720
three english words so it is okay i've never heard that before yeah it's interesting so all right so
00:51:22.260
to back up so you're saying post flood tower of babel 70 different you know regions principalities
00:51:31.000
and 70 maybe chief fallen angels with all their minions
00:51:39.020
But then the Lord Jesus, second member of the Trinity,
00:51:45.560
but not the way that Jehovah's Witnesses would say it.
00:51:48.020
He is eternal, sharing in the one triune essence.
0.82
00:51:56.140
And to him was a portion, not one of these 70 regions.
00:52:01.000
His portion came later, centuries later, but he was going to get a nation as well.
00:52:05.780
And as the only begotten son, the favored son of the father, he gets the best inheritance.
00:52:13.820
It starts off small like a mustard seed with Abraham, but grows into this tree that ends
00:52:19.520
up filling the whole earth and finds its ultimate fulfillment, not just in the nation of Israel,
00:52:25.480
but in the church and becomes an all earth encompassing tree that gives shade to the beast
00:52:33.240
and rest of the birds. And is that, that's what you're saying? That's, that's the storyline of
00:52:38.660
the, that's one of the main storylines of the old Testament. Yep. That's pretty cool. It is pretty
00:52:44.060
cool. All right. So last thing, cause you wrote a book on giants. I feel like we got to get there
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a little bit, you know, we've already taken some time, but what, how do giants come into play and
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what's their relevance and is there is there a sense in which we can say jesus is
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among many things a giant slayer he's jack climbs the beanstalk right you know like right
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so he uh when i wrote the book i wanted to i wanted to make a book that was not going to
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focus on the second coming uh because there were already a few sensational books out there and
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it's really the dispensationalists who have written those books right and they've really
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capitalized on the whole Nephilim thing the last I suppose 10 years or so it's become big in those
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circles and uh I wanted to write this as a reformed guy trying to do a biblical theology of the giants
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and I wanted to end it at the first coming so that's what I did with the first edition as I
00:53:43.760
ended at the first coming and the way I did that was I took the again the universal view of the
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early church with regard to what an evil spirit is. So an unclean spirit or an evil spirit in the
00:53:58.220
New Testament, these are unclean because just like other things that are unclean, the mixing of
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different fabrics or those kinds of laws in Leviticus, that's what a Nephilim was. It was a
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mixture of heaven and earth. It was by definition, unclean. And so I have a, I think I have a,
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I think, I think I have an appendix, or at least I have some quotes in the book about this, that
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it was the universal understanding of the church fathers that when a Nephilim or Rephaim,
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whatever you want to call it, when it died, because it didn't belong to heaven or earth,
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it became a spirit that roamed the air and those spirits became the demons of the new testament
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so when jesus is casting out demons confronting demons doing anything at all with demons he's
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literally continuing the battle that moses fought against um amalek that joshua fought against um
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you know, the sons of Anak, that David fought against Goliath. Believe it or not, that Esther
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and Mordecai fought against Haman, because if you look at the names and you look at the
00:55:14.200
genealogy of Haman, he comes from the lineage of the Rephaim. He's carrying out this storyline
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that is predicted all the way back in Genesis 3.15, that there's going to be this seed war.
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and he's doing it now because in the new testament at least in israel you know we could talk about
00:55:32.880
whether or not there's giants of the places but in israel they had been they had all been conquered
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physically but now their spirits are still lingering and tormenting and creating havoc
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like crazy and so he deals with them showing his power over them in a way that no other exorcist
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or anybody like that walking around it could even come close to and they're also the ones who
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recognize that he is the christ nobody else does that it's the demons that do it and sometimes he
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tells them to shut up and not tell anybody else um so all right let me pick your brain about this
00:56:08.220
so that's fascinating uh but with that um legion i think it's legion yeah uh is legion the one that
00:56:15.280
asked to be cast into the pigs right right so and i'm thinking also i'm going to pair that with
00:56:20.100
something else so jesus you know he says um you know he gives this explanation of what you know
00:56:24.740
And when a demon is cast out, it goes through arid places, goes through the air, waterless places.
00:56:29.980
And then, you know, and then it's going to circle back eventually, you know, in the houses can be swept clean and put in order.
00:56:34.920
But if nothing's filled, if the house remains empty, then the demon will come back and bring seven friends worse than itself.
00:56:40.760
And the latter state of the man will be worse than the former.
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It seems as though these disembodied spirits, one, it seems as though they would like to be bodied.
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because they had one before that's what's so important about it they lost their body
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so so many people confuse fallen angels as if they are demons and that's wrong it's biblically
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wrong and it's historically wrong and nobody believed that uh angels have their own bodies
00:57:12.140
they don't seek to embody anybody because they already have a body now they can certainly torment
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or they can insinuate or they can talk to or whatever,
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He obliges legion, casts this host of demons,
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I've heard theories about, well, like, well, the Nephilim were drowned in the flood, you know, and that has something to do with it or, or they, you know, when they're disembodied, they're cast into waterless places.
00:57:58.440
And so, yes, they had the body of the pig, but that's not a body of a person.
00:58:02.080
And so they use the pig to get them to the water.
00:58:11.600
I do think that there's probably is something to the fact that they were destroyed in the flood.
00:58:15.880
you know of course you're assuming that the that the demon that legion was a pre-flood demon giant
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he could have been a post-flood giant so gotcha if there's multiple incursions he could he could
00:58:27.240
have been someone that joshua right but there's something more going on which actually with the
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pigs so remember a jew would never raise pigs this has to be gentile doing this and it's in the land
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of Bashan, essentially. And the pagans would offer pigs to the gods at their dolmens, which
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is their grave markers, all around this area. And so there's a whole bunch of weird stuff going on
00:58:52.200
with the very fact that there's pigs. What's that all about? Well, it's a sacrificial animal for a
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pagan um ritual and then so it's an it's the whole thing is ironic really and it's not a satire but
00:59:08.920
i would say irony is probably the best word for it these guys go into the pigs which is the the
00:59:14.520
the the creature that would be offered to them anyway but the pigs are alive pigs have their
00:59:18.800
own minds and the pigs go out of their minds and i don't think that the plan of the demon was that
00:59:23.560
it would die i think that was i think that the the pig itself it went so crazy because think about
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how mad legion was the man who was possessed by him right went nuts and so then they ironically
00:59:36.420
again jump into the sea of galilee which is called the deep in the in in canaanite literature and
00:59:45.660
it's a sim it's a symbol of chaos it's a symbol of the home of leviathan all kinds of weird stuff
00:59:52.860
going on there and the same way that like revelation talks about the heaven there will be no
00:59:57.340
sea because the sea the sea is symbolic like yes you know this in the genesis narrative the spirit
01:00:04.700
is hovering above the waters you know and uh brooding above the waters and then you know but
01:00:09.400
the sea the earth is without form and void and it's the sea represents chaos it represents and
01:00:17.180
death you know that the sea will give up its debt you know it's like it's um and then there's
01:00:22.280
something to be said for it's not just that the um the uh the the fact that the physics are being
01:00:29.760
you know supernaturally breached but um you know pointing towards christ and his deity but
01:00:35.260
it seems like there's something symbolic to you know to jesus walking on water tramp treading
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on the sea you know oh yeah 100 yeah that's any thoughts on another discussion i have lots of
01:00:45.800
thoughts on that i'm preaching through luke right now and i think that when jesus is on the sea
01:00:50.620
that, uh, and you know, whether it's calming the storm or, or having Peter walk in the water or
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whatever he's doing, even, even with the pigs jumping into the sea, there's always satanic
01:01:01.620
overtones going on because Leviathan is the dragon is Satan for, to think about John 12 and
01:01:09.640
John 20, those are all being connected. And so when Jesus is doing stuff around the sea or on
01:01:16.320
the sea he's showing that he has power over the the creature who lives in the sea which
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is represented by a leviathan which is therefore represents satan it's an attack directly on satan
01:01:28.040
himself okay yep going going back to the garden real quick um so the you know the serpent um
01:01:39.000
um do you so do you think that when when satan is tempting eve um and it's this you know talking
01:01:47.820
serpent but a serpent with legs right because the curse is that it would then so i don't i don't
01:01:52.620
think so i don't think that's what's going on okay i was so i was gonna ask is that it seems like
01:01:58.880
eve is talking to someone that she's maybe seen before yeah she's not caught off guard but go
01:02:05.820
go ahead and give me your view okay so uh the when you go to extra testamental literature
01:02:13.800
jewish literature and this is this appears in two or three places some of the dead sea scrolls had
01:02:19.360
this uh a book called i think the apocalypse of abraham has this when they describe the watchers
01:02:25.620
they describe them as serpentine in appearance so i think that what's happening there is the serpent
01:02:34.220
is actually, it's more than a metaphor. It's not just a metaphor, but it's a picture of evil
01:02:42.640
in some really strange ways. The word Nahash can mean a serpent as a noun. It can mean a shining
01:02:51.080
one as an adjective. And as a verb, it means divination. Heiser says that the Nahash could
01:02:58.300
be a substantival adjective there so that you could actually translate it as the shining one
01:03:04.020
spoke to her and the reason i say that is because if watchers are associated with serpents but they
01:03:10.840
have humanoid uh appearance and i think like i i think tend to think of in the ufo world like
01:03:17.700
reptilians i don't know that they are the watchers but that's a good way of thinking about
01:03:21.640
they're humanoid but they're serpentine and i i i think that's that eve is not talking to us
01:03:28.760
to a possessed serpent or a talking serpent but she's talking to a watcher and she wasn't surprised
01:03:35.840
because this is where he belongs because it's the divine council they're all over the place and
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this is just the one who happens to come up to her to to test her the same way that the satan does
01:03:45.920
in job one in that divine council scene when the sons of god go with the satan to talk to the lord
01:03:52.380
about what should they do with job down on the earth right i just i think it's a it's just much
01:03:58.880
it's much uh it's this is not something that should cause people to lose their faith in the
01:04:06.560
bible because eve is talking to a talking snake right you know you hear that objection from
01:04:12.280
atheists all the time no there's something very different going on there right so then how would
01:04:17.780
you explain the curse though of uh the curse towards the serpent yeah not that kind of language
01:04:23.320
is used all the time it's used in isaiah 14 she's in um ezekiel 28 it's using obadiah um that you
01:04:30.460
will fall from the heights and you go down low as you can go it's a it's a way of metaphorically
01:04:35.940
describing that you are at the highest place that there could be and now you're gonna you're gonna
01:04:40.480
run around in the dirt of the earth eat the dust you're gonna eat the dust exactly right we see
01:04:47.220
yeah, we have that metaphor in English to this day.
01:04:57.380
It's piecing together a lot of different things for me
01:05:00.620
as I'm just personally looking into some of these different views.
01:05:09.040
It does make sense of so much, especially like mythology.
01:05:13.440
and it's like oh man like like the world really is like there really is a spiritual battle the
01:05:20.940
world really is a magical place and um and and it was i mean i just can't imagine like you know i
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01:05:28.360
think of like noah and like uh man it was it was probably pretty crazy to live in the antediluvian
01:05:35.560
world i mean you probably like i mean from my understanding you've got dinosaurs right it's i'm
01:05:40.680
I'm a young, you know, six day young earth creationist.
01:05:45.080
So, I mean, I don't think that you've got dinosaurs for millions of years and then man.
01:05:49.520
But so, no, like, you know, you've got dinosaurs, you've got giants, you've got fallen angels, you know, that are had their hand and all these things.
01:06:02.560
And you're trying to build a boat and God's going to flood the whole world.
01:06:09.100
would make for a good movie if some crazy guy named aronofsky didn't already ruin it yeah someone
01:06:14.600
could do it well yeah um okay uh any any final thoughts you want to leave the listener with
01:06:19.700
no not on these topics and there's we could talk i could talk about this for forever really so
01:06:25.580
cool there's no way we're just go with it we're just gonna have to have you back
01:06:29.300
that's that's the solution okay well thank you so much how can our listeners find you
01:06:34.680
do you want to reference one of your books and where they could buy it if they want to go check
01:06:38.440
it out yeah i mean uh you can go to my church web or well to my website first douglasvandorn.com
01:06:45.320
and i have all the books linked there and have a whole bunch of other stuff there too i you know
01:06:50.500
i've done tons of podcasts so those are all linked on there and it's i redid the site um last fall
01:06:57.020
so i think it looks better than it did uh that's where you can go all my books are on amazon so i
01:07:03.140
just do the print on demand through amazon and that's been good to me so far they haven't they
01:07:07.840
haven't censored me or anything so just look up uh doug van dorn yeah on amazon and then also
01:07:14.000
people can go to our church website it's rbcnc.com so just the initials for reformed baptist church
01:07:23.360
of northern colorado and uh you can check out our church there you can see what you know we believe
01:07:29.400
and very it's it's funny joel because as as crazy as i am our worship service is totally conservative
01:07:36.660
and right like a michael horton kind of a urc sort of a thing and and people it kind of freaks
01:07:43.460
some people out because they hear about me from blurry creatures or whatever and then they they
01:07:48.120
go to the go to the church service and like this is what it wasn't what i thought it was gonna be
01:07:51.500
right so i mean that's what i am i'm a reformed guy i'm a reformed baptist and right and we have
01:07:56.940
all of our all of our sermons are for free on the website most of them are in pdf so you can
01:08:02.400
download those do whatever you want if there's a weird topic i mean i've been preaching for 22
01:08:07.900
years i've gone through a lot of books of the bible i don't skip verses if it's weird and it's
01:08:13.220
there and i've preached on it chances are that i've talked about this so it's a great resource
01:08:18.240
for people to be able to dive into on all kinds of these subjects so great all right well thank
01:08:25.500
you so much for your time appreciate it yeah thanks for having me on man absolutely god bless you too