The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - The Divine Council & Mt. Olympus - ICYMI with Doug Van Dorn

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00:02:10.420 And so our entire moral framework is based around 1930 and 1940. 0.89

00:02:15.420 And every bad thing is Hitler.

00:02:18.420 Every failure to confront the bad thing is Neville Chamberlain. 0.85

00:02:22.420 And Saddam Hussein, Hitler.

00:02:25.420 Vladimir Putin, Hitler.

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00:02:32.420 So the moment that a young man crosses the aisle

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00:03:30.120 applying god's word to every aspect of life this is theology applied

00:03:38.280 All right. Well, let's talk a little bit about Heiser and some of his conception and some of

00:03:48.260 the work that you've done working off of that with this divine council. Can you explain that

00:03:55.340 to our listeners? What's the divine council and where do we find it in scripture? Really,

00:04:00.000 the main focus of his book is to talk about the divine council. Like I said, the Nephilim,

00:04:04.780 the angel of the Lord. These are subtopics underneath it. So the divine council is 1.00

00:04:09.960 essentially the idea that there's a group of celestial heavenly beings that rule over the

00:04:15.780 affairs of the cosmos. And if you want an analogy from Greek mythology, think about the Olympians.

00:04:24.000 Now, the problem is, of course, as soon as I say mythology, people, especially in our world,

00:04:29.460 they start to go crazy because they hear the word myth and they think fake fiction lies all this

00:04:37.060 kind of stuff and my understanding of mythology has changed dramatically i think c.s lewis has

00:04:43.240 been very helpful to me to to understand this in some ways tolkien as well both these guys were

00:04:48.680 just incredibly steeped well-versed in a ton of mythology yeah um you don't know if you know it

00:04:57.700 But Tolkien gets a bunch of his names for the dwarves from the poetic Eda, the Scandinavian myth.

00:05:05.380 So that's just kind of an example of they're taking these stories and they're just kind of reapplying them.

00:05:11.660 But my understanding of a myth is that it's really just an origin story.

00:05:17.420 It can be either true or false.

00:05:20.200 It can have over the course of time, you can have changes in it.

00:05:24.160 So you can have contradictions in Greek mythology because they've changed the stories or they've heard them differently or whatever the case might be.

00:05:30.500 I mean, these things are so old, they go back before any kind of written history.

00:05:35.180 And they're a vehicle that can stand the test of time that can help people understand where their origins are from.

00:05:44.920 So that's why Heiser's original title for his book, The Unseen Realm, was actually the myth that is true.

00:05:52.180 he's trying to convey the idea that the biblical story is a myth in that it's an origin story and

00:05:59.520 it's got it's got mythological um ways that it's working on our psyche when we read it but it's

00:06:06.180 true it's actually history um i think that probably you know i i actually believe fairly

00:06:12.840 strongly that zeus was a real character and his name is actually in the bible as either satan or

00:06:18.340 bail depending on the testament that you're in i think that those are all the same entity

00:06:21.760 when somebody hears that they freak out because they've been taught that you know mythology is

00:06:29.560 false there's nothing true about it how could you possibly say that zeus is real but as soon as i

00:06:34.560 say well he's actually satan he's actually bail now bail might bother some people because they

00:06:40.860 might not think he's real either he's just an idol well that's not true but it's funny because

00:06:45.260 none of our people in the reformed world would say that satan is anything other than a real

00:06:49.800 supernatural fallen entity they understand that so to make that connection and i think that you

00:06:55.880 can make pretty strong biblical case a biblical case for it that these are all the same entity

00:07:01.540 uh it really discombobulates a lot of people so yeah the mythology things get twisted and turned

00:07:08.740 um but when you find certain myths especially when you find universal myths like like

00:07:14.840 every flood like the flood yeah then then you're probably you know maybe some of the details

00:07:20.120 like you take it with a grain of salt put your discernment hat on you know don't be naive but uh

00:07:25.240 but if you start finding the same story um in every place and every time period and every like

00:07:31.320 then there's probably something true there and so the idea of like giants is uh you know it's just

00:07:37.960 a universal whether it's jack and the beanstalk or you know but like giants and one element of

00:07:43.080 of giants that you find universally is that they're typically not friendly giants. I know

00:07:50.780 an interpretation can be made, and I'm partial to it with Abraham and a couple. But for the most

00:07:57.540 part, they're man-eating giants. And then what is Cyclops? I mean, think about that. It's like,

00:08:03.220 okay, it's just a complete made-up story. Or maybe a giant that was injured and left on an

00:08:09.300 island you know it only has one eye because the other one was poked at like i mean it's entirely

00:08:14.660 possible so anyways yeah so uh the giants you know in the divine council worldview a giant is

00:08:23.180 essentially um it's a nephilim so that's a genesis 6 and it's a son of what are called sons of god

00:08:30.360 and in our we'll just for sake of argument we won't go through the this tonight you know

00:08:35.280 arguing for why we would believe textually that this is the case.

00:08:38.660 But I can give you one. I can give you a lot.

00:08:41.320 But they're the sons of the sons of God.

00:08:43.820 And the sons of God have different titles in Scripture.

00:08:48.160 One of them is a watcher.

00:08:49.800 You only find this word explicitly or certainly in Daniel 4.

00:08:55.220 But when Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, the watchers come down out of heaven

00:09:01.060 and say that it has been decreed upon you, Nebuchadnezzar,

00:09:03.860 that you're going to live like a wild animal or whatever that decree of the watchers is a decree

00:09:09.460 from the divine council so these these watchers um other people might be more comfortable just

00:09:15.420 calling them fallen angels uh over time the the term angel actually became it changed it more of

00:09:23.840 like just like any word really does in the in the early part of the old testament and angel is really

00:09:30.360 just a messenger. So it's a function. By the time you get to the New Testament, an angel really

00:09:35.100 almost becomes an ontological category. It's, you know, it's a type of being. So when people get

00:09:42.280 upset, you know, with certain words that you could use for these guys, I'll just say, well, it's a

00:09:47.080 fallen angel. And then that kind of takes it off the table. Probably the biggest word for these

00:09:52.080 guys in the Hebrew is the word Elohim. They're called the Elohim. This is a word that's used

00:09:57.700 for god and it's used for the gods and again um people will say well the gods aren't real

00:10:03.460 but if you understand that the gods are actually fallen angels they're created entities

00:10:09.860 they're not on any kind of an ontological par with the uncreated creator of the universe he

00:10:17.780 made them right if you can get that into your head right then you realize you have to understand

00:10:23.220 we're not talking about equals there's not at all one one god who is uh eternal infinite and who

00:10:29.580 created x in the helo uh he made these other gods he made them all and in fact colossians

00:10:35.040 says that jesus is the one who made them all and it it goes very very specifically that he made

00:10:40.140 everything in heaven and on earth why would it go why would it care to tell you that what he made

00:10:45.580 in heaven well maybe so that you don't get confused about these guys somehow being equals with him

00:10:51.920 because they're not ontologically equal with him at all right right so uh yeah so that's what it

00:10:59.200 that's what the divine council is this found all over the place um some of the best known passages

00:11:04.640 at the end of i think it's first kings 22 it's a really good one this is where you have uh the

00:11:11.520 prophet micaiah hears uh the overhears or sees in a vision this heavenly scene where um god is

00:11:20.660 having this argument with these other heavenly beings over what they should do with King Ahab,

00:11:24.520 I think it is. And he says, who's going to go and be a lying spirit? And they have a fight over it.

00:11:28.660 And finally, one spirit says, I'll do it. So God says, okay, go ahead. You will succeed in doing

00:11:33.020 it. What they're doing is they're having a council meeting in heaven. They're arguing about things

00:11:38.140 over the earth. And then once the decision is made, then they go out and do it. And God has

00:11:42.840 the final say on it. You see this in, what's another good one? Daniel chapter seven. This is

00:11:50.300 where the really famous verse that New Testament uses quite a bit that one like a son of man comes

00:11:56.200 riding on the clouds of heaven to the ancient of days, and he's presented a kingdom and all

00:12:02.240 dominion authorities given to him. Well, right before that you have this, it gives you a description

00:12:08.260 of the heavenly court it talks about the throne it talks about the ancient of days it talks about

00:12:13.120 a river being there and it talks about the thrones that are around it and the books are

00:12:18.760 opened well what's that who are on these thrones it's the heavenly beings it's the divine council

00:12:24.020 we i mean boy there's just a there's just a ton of them that we could think of

00:12:30.880 would you hold would you hold all the way like another example for you would you be

00:12:35.420 one of the guys who would say that like genesis one and two in the creation narrative um like

00:12:41.400 let us make man in our image that that's trinitarian language or that's divine council

00:12:46.120 language uh my answer is yes to that okay i won't create an either or the reason why is because

00:12:53.020 the father and son are certainly on the divine council so and the holy spirit's always present

00:13:00.180 when the sun is present so de facto the trinity is there but it's bigger than the trinity if i

00:13:06.040 was going to go to prove the trinity from genesis 1 which i think you can do very easily i'd go to

00:13:10.700 the first three verses i wouldn't even i wouldn't even make it all the way to chapter or verse 22

00:13:15.300 or whatever that is 26 um because if god you have the spirit hovering and then you have god

00:13:21.180 spoke the word and very clearly the new testament tells us who that word is right so but yeah i

00:13:28.500 I would say that the let us make man in our image is the divine counsel having a meeting.

00:13:34.780 So that's the first verse.

00:13:35.840 But then the second verse, it says, and God made man in his image.

00:13:39.320 So the way Heiser talks about it is that it's like if we all, if I said to a group of people, hey, let's all go out for pizza.

00:13:46.540 I'm speaking to a group of people, but then I buy.

00:13:50.360 Okay.

00:13:50.600 I'm the one who, I'm the one who does the, does the work.

00:13:53.740 Right.

00:13:53.860 so so talk to me a little bit about and to our listener about um the idea so something that

00:13:59.920 fascinates me that i i would love to learn more about is the idea of regional powers like thinking

00:14:05.220 of you know the um it's the archangel michael right it's not gabriel it's michael who gets

00:14:09.760 held up with the prince of persia no it's actually gabriel it's oh it's gabriel okay so it's gabriel

00:14:14.880 um he's like sorry i was i'd be here sooner but uh you know i had to do battle you know against

00:14:19.680 you know this this power that uh that was had a locale it seems like an earthly locale like

00:14:25.980 in a particular principality and that word principality so there's princes and principalities

00:14:30.520 like princes would would be spiritual beings with authority and then the principality would be like

00:14:36.360 a province or a state or a region exactly so so is so my question is when when the fall happened

00:14:44.540 I'm not talking about Adam and Eve, but the angelic fall.

00:14:49.340 Angels fell.

00:14:50.220 They fell somewhere.

00:14:51.020 They fell to earth.

00:14:52.420 And it seems as though there's maybe a case to be made that they were assigned,

00:14:57.020 or maybe they were already assigned by God and then fell to their various regions.

00:15:01.300 Or did they fall and then a captain among them, Lucifer, appointed,

00:15:07.620 you're going to be over Chile, you're going to be over Persia.

00:15:09.920 How does that work, this princes and principalities?

00:15:14.540 Okay, so the key text there is really Deuteronomy 32.

00:15:18.720 It's the paper that I talked about earlier.

00:15:21.080 It's this variant.

00:15:23.520 And let me just call it up real quick so that we can read the text.

00:15:31.960 And so Deuteronomy 32, we'll start in verse 7.

00:15:36.280 This is the Song of Moses.

00:15:38.560 He says,

00:15:38.900 Remember the days of old.

00:15:40.820 Consider the years of many generations.

00:15:41.900 generations ask your father and he will show you your elders and they will tell you when the most

00:15:47.820 high gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind he fixed the borders of the

00:15:53.340 peoples according to the number of the sons of god the textual variant there says sons of israel

00:15:58.660 some people might have a new american standard bible will say sons of israel but dead sea scrolls

00:16:03.620 and septuagint say sons of god and heiser makes a very good argument that that's the original reading

00:16:09.380 The number of the sons of God there was understood throughout all the tradition as the number 70.

00:16:16.900 So you can read in the Targum.

00:16:18.980 Targum is a Jewish paraphrase into Aramaic of the Old Testament.

00:16:24.680 So some of them can be very, very strict and very close to the text,

00:16:29.860 almost like just a really good translation that we have.

00:16:32.540 And then others can be more expansive.

00:16:34.280 and the one of the more expansive ones in in genesis the deuteronomy is targum pseudo jonathan

00:16:41.240 and it gives the number 70 there is a good example well why is that significant because

00:16:46.720 there were 70 nations at the tower of babel so when moses tells you to remember the days of old

00:16:52.240 he's telling you to remember tower babel now for him that was a long long time ago and moses for

00:16:57.740 us was a long time ago so this is a this is a really long time ago but according to that text

00:17:03.840 anyway and it's really the main one that we have of the timing of it the sons of god were given to

00:17:10.460 the nations at the tower of babel and it seems to me that it's because what happened was that

00:17:17.160 and i we were talking earlier before the show about you know the divine incursion view of how

00:17:24.540 did the nephilim get on the earth after the flood there's four or five different views out there one

00:17:29.420 is that you know the dna was carried through by maybe one of noah's sons another one is that it

00:17:34.920 wasn't a worldwide flood another one is that and so some of the giants lived through it another one

00:17:40.660 is that um maybe somebody like aug the giant lived uh by uh hitching right on noah's ark and that's

00:17:48.420 kind of a gilgamesh hanging on to the side of the ark and noah's feeding him i've seen that one not

00:17:53.800 not a fan but it's when you tell the kids when they're three years old right yeah yeah yeah

00:17:59.180 And then, you know, I actually tend to think that your view is right, that there was another incursion.

00:18:04.780 And I think that that incursion took place at the Tower of Babel.

00:18:08.380 So you have to understand what the Tower of Babel was.

00:18:12.440 So in order to understand it, you have to go back to Genesis 2 and 3.

00:18:17.600 So and then a little bit of Ezekiel can help fill in the gaps there, too, because Ezekiel calls Eden the mountain of God.

00:18:25.620 All we get in Genesis of Eden is that it's a garden, right?

00:18:28.200 but it's a mountain. And why does that matter? Because Satan is there in the mountain garden of

00:18:36.200 Eden tempting our parents. Well, what's he doing there? He's there because it's a divine council

00:18:41.640 scene. Consider it Mount Olympus. They're on Mount Olympus. God has created our first parents

00:18:49.920 to essentially have a seat on the divine council with the heavenly beings, but they get to rule

00:18:55.520 over the earth whereas the heavenly beings are ruling over whatever whatever's outside the earth

00:19:01.480 however that works i don't have any idea and actually and this is the only this is the only

00:19:06.680 thing i've ever read that makes a lot of sense of why satan tempted them and it's because he became

00:19:12.200 jealous of this and so you have whole books like the life of adam and eve in the pseudepigrapha

00:19:17.500 that talk about that was at that moment that god made adam and he gave him this dominion that that

00:19:23.960 was actually that was the reason why satan fell so that okay so the fall of satan and the fall

00:19:29.940 of adam in in this scheme would be very simultaneous to one one yeah two birds one

00:19:36.120 stone yeah okay it's exactly right so okay um so the whole point being there that that they're on

00:19:44.160 they're in the divine council in fact i think you got actually you can make a case that there's more

00:19:48.780 beings there because satan or sorry ezekiel i forget the chapter maybe 31 it's the chapter of

00:19:56.860 assyria being likened to a giant tree a world tree and then it talks about how the the trees

00:20:02.180 of eden were envious of you well why would it use trees of eden language well that's uh it's kind of

00:20:08.440 a metaphor for other heavenly beings and when adam and eve go hiding among the trees of eden

00:20:14.700 like what is what's going on there i tend to think that they're seeking refuge among the gods if you

00:20:21.180 want to call it that um and god gets very upset by this why are you running away from me what did i

00:20:27.540 ever do to you and then he graciously closed them with you know and gives them the gospel and stuff

00:20:31.960 but the point is there's a divine council scene it's a mountain the the authority is given there

00:20:37.860 and actually even the temptation itself believe it or not is when you look at what the tree of

00:20:44.440 knowledge of good and evil is, and you go to say Solomon, and he talks about how it's the duty of

00:20:51.000 a king to discern good and evil. Well, what does that mean? It means that it's the king's job to

00:20:57.780 make a judicial pronouncement on right and wrong. Well, that's what divine counsel does. And that's

00:21:04.860 the whole point of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan's temptation was incredibly

00:21:09.860 subtle and he actually tempted them with something that was very true but the problem is that um

00:21:15.540 well there's a lot of problems with what happened but of course essentially is that they made the

00:21:19.900 wrong decision right um they they went against what god said was right they said essentially

00:21:25.520 by eating it they're they're making a judicial pronouncement that what god said is wrong right

00:21:31.460 okay and so then they get kicked off now if if moses is if we just take that verse in deuteronomy

00:21:39.100 Then what happens is that the whatever happened before the flood and how that worked its way out with, you know, the fallen angels and men and authority.

00:21:49.980 And I don't have I don't know.

00:21:51.980 And I don't know that we really can know.

00:21:54.260 But at Tower of Babel, it's really a it's really a trying to get back to Eden.

00:21:59.640 But instead of God putting us on his man made mountain, we create a mountain ourselves.

00:22:06.560 It's a ziggurat.

00:22:07.860 That's the whole point of the thing.

00:22:09.020 It's to emulate, uh, what a cosmic mountain is, what a divine council mountain is.

00:22:14.520 And then we go up to the top and we try to, um, make communication with the fallen heavenly

00:22:20.360 beings.

00:22:21.300 And God said, that's not going to happen.

00:22:23.980 It's not going to, it's not going to happen.

00:22:25.300 Let's disperse you.

00:22:26.220 And you're not, I'm going to make your language so you can't understand each other so that

00:22:28.900 you can't do this.

00:22:30.880 And that's the moment.

00:22:32.540 It seems that Moses is saying, remember this, because that's the moment when I spread the

00:22:37.700 nations out around the world that i also gave each one of those nations one of the sons of god to

00:22:43.280 roll over them okay are these fallen sons of god to rule over them or righteous i think so

00:22:51.240 so there's actually a really interesting passage in the uh i think it's in the creteus in plato

00:22:58.280 near the end this is this is where actually where he writes about atlantis and man it's so weird

00:23:04.240 because he has a line that's almost exactly word for word what Moses says in Deuteronomy 32.7.

00:23:11.040 In the days of old, God gave to the nations according to their allotment.

00:23:16.540 That's what he says.

00:23:18.480 And then he goes, we got as Greece, we got Athena and Hephaestus

00:23:22.880 because they were the gods that were given to philosophy and beautiful music and basically high culture.

00:23:30.480 and of course Plato has this idea that before the flood it where there was a golden age and

00:23:35.880 that things were really good and then things got worse and worse and worse over time to the point

00:23:40.320 where Atlantis was destroyed because of the corruption in some ways that's very similar

00:23:44.860 and so I use that to answer your question Joel because I think I think that the corruption of

00:23:52.060 the angels got worse over time okay just like it does with humanity even just like it is in our

00:23:59.520 in our civilization right now. The last three years are the worst that it's been in our civilization

00:24:04.340 since the beginning of it. It's just gone exponentially off the charts.

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00:26:54.360 That's really interesting.

00:26:56.240 I think Plato might have, I think he might have read Moses.

00:27:01.200 I know that it doesn't add up, but I've got some people in my church who,

00:27:04.840 they're more knowledgeable than I am on the subject of, you know, but like,

00:27:08.920 look at you know it it seems like i don't know it's it seems like he had somehow had access to

00:27:15.760 moses the pentateuch or at least a part of it so i i uh when i was doing the angel of the lord book

00:27:23.360 i uh i found a couple of puritans that wrote on the angel and i started reading them got one of

00:27:30.700 these guys name is peter alex he lived in the late 17 1700s a french guy but this dude knew i mean

00:27:38.320 he knew every language you could know he he read everything you could read just absolute genius and

00:27:44.700 he he says in that book that I ended up uh kind of republishing and putting notes on it and

00:27:50.540 modernizing English and stuff for people he says there that um Moses knew or sorry Plato knew about

00:27:58.960 Moses and then he I think he cites Justin Martyr who basically said the same thing so the idea

00:28:04.580 seems to be that you can account for it through his ancestor solon who came down to egypt right

00:28:10.040 and that's where he heard the story of atlantis from the priest there and then it's not that he's

00:28:15.240 taking a boat back to greece he decides to take the long way around and of course in order to do

00:28:19.600 that you have to go right through israel and so there's every reason in the world why he could

00:28:24.880 have brought back um at least the torah and plato could very well have read it yep that's that's i

00:28:33.080 couldn't remember but that's what i heard was yep yeah it was through um how do you say his name

00:28:37.380 solon solon yeah yeah solon his ancestor so long went to egypt that's where he heard about atlantis

00:28:42.540 and yeah yeah it's possible it's a wild world yeah okay so yeah so one so we're saying fallen

00:28:53.000 angels 70 of them and you think it's a symbolic number so it's not yeah yeah that's what that's

00:29:00.420 yeah so like 70 regions 70 nations um and it but it could be 500 each for each of these 70

00:29:09.340 right yeah you can have under maybe a chief guy and yeah that's what why why would the heavenly

00:29:14.840 bureaucracy be any less complicated than earthly bureaucracy right well maybe because they're

00:29:21.820 trying to be more efficient maybe because they want a bureaucracy that works um but yeah but

00:29:30.200 Okay, so 70 regions, nations, and we would say that that still exists today.

00:29:36.000 We have more than 70 nations, but there's still, in a spiritual plane,

00:29:41.320 would you agree that there's still a sense in which the world would break up

00:29:46.980 into those 70 different regions, and there's still…

00:29:49.960 That's a great question.

00:29:50.820 And some of them, like Jude or Peter, may have already been locked up in gloomy dungeons,

00:29:55.720 but some of them may still…

00:29:57.180 Well, okay, so the gloomy dungeon part is talking about before the flood.

00:30:03.500 So if you want to think about it, you can think about it this way.

00:30:06.340 I found it helpful.

00:30:07.280 I don't know if it's right to do this or not.

00:30:09.660 But when you go to the Greek myths, they have a flood.

00:30:14.720 And at the flood, they have a great war between the Titans and the Olympians.

00:30:19.720 The Titans are the elder gods, you know, Kronos and Rhea and these 12 Titans.

00:30:25.820 12, an interesting number.

00:30:27.180 And then the Olympians with Zeus and what's it, Hera and the other 12 Olympians.

00:30:32.900 Again, you have that same number.

00:30:34.520 And the Olympians basically lock the Titans up into Taurus.

00:30:39.040 It's the exact same thing.

00:30:40.020 Have you seen Clash of the Titans, the remake first?

00:30:42.980 I think it's the first movie.

00:30:43.780 With Liam Neeson?

00:30:45.000 The one with Liam Neeson?

00:30:46.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:30:46.920 It's probably the second movie where they're actually let out of there.

00:30:49.820 Release the Kraken.

00:30:51.360 Yeah, so it's the second movie because that's the first movie, the Kraken.

00:30:53.680 Okay.

00:30:54.380 Yeah.

00:30:55.080 That's what we're talking about. 0.61

00:30:56.440 And, um, so that's what, that's what Peter and Judah referring to is the pre-flood lockup of the pre, the pre-flood antediluvian watchers that committed the original sin of the Nephilim thing.

00:31:12.440 Those guys were locked up and you find this in the book of Enoch that kind of expands on that.

00:31:18.220 And, uh, you know, they're, they're actually locked up for 70 generations, which is a whole nother topic.

00:31:22.860 but um when when you're talking about the post-flood i think that that that's a different

00:31:30.080 story these we're in my mind we're dealing with the olympians not the titans it's the olympians

00:31:35.420 who were somehow put over the nations of the world because titan titans are gone at least for i see

00:31:40.960 i see okay so the pre-flood guys they're the ones who created the demonic hybrid offspring nephilim

00:31:49.400 and and they got punished severely right for locked up in tartarus um and then uh and then it's

00:31:57.500 you have a different group still fallen angels but a little bit more hinged guys who at least

00:32:05.080 at least had the good sense not to try to corrupt the messianic line by you know marrying human

00:32:11.600 wives and those guys are the ones who are appointed at babel over 70 right okay and then those get

00:32:19.720 well if that's the case then it's possible we don't know you know but it's possible that those

00:32:24.520 guys might still be in some level of operation today yeah i have a do you know brian godawa is

00:32:32.380 no so brian is a hollywood um film writer he's written a couple of movies but good reformed guy

00:32:41.240 he's a he's a partial preterist takes 70 ad fall of jerusalem really seriously he he takes the view

00:32:47.680 that the watchers were kind of done in 70 ad that that was actually a judgment upon them

00:32:53.500 so i can't say definitively that they're gone my view is that or that they're that they're not gone

00:32:58.780 or that they are gone my view is that they're that they that he's wrong about that that it was

00:33:03.940 kind of an already not yet judgment um for them at and i think 70 ad probably had something to do

00:33:11.920 with a lessening of their power but i think pentecost had much more of a lessening of their

00:33:17.840 power than 70 ad did right and clearly between 30 ad and 70 ad the these watchers these powers

00:33:26.520 principalities thrones dominions all these words that paul throws around that we didn't even know

00:33:31.280 what we're like, what is this? You know, well, that's, that's what this is. And it's very clear

00:33:36.540 that they're, that they're around at least in those 40 years. And my, my view is that they are

00:33:41.740 still around and that what has happened is my all millennialist, all millennialism coming out.

00:33:47.700 But I believe that, that the power of Satan to deceive the nations is really what the binding

00:33:55.420 of Satan is all about in Revelation 20. So in other words, they're not in the full force of

00:34:01.900 their power that they were prior to the cross and the resurrection and Pentecost, but they still do

00:34:08.040 have power. And so I can say, I have a way of understanding that Satan can prowl around like

00:34:15.020 a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy at the same time that I can say that he's bound

00:34:20.180 because i don't view that bound as an absolute binding like a premillennialist would i view it

00:34:26.660 as as a very specific kind of binding so that god if he wants to save his elect out of any nation

00:34:32.620 uh he can do that without them having to become israelites be circumcised move down to the line

00:34:38.840 of canaan and all that kind of stuff right yeah he's on a leash and he was always on a leash in

00:34:43.640 the sense that you know the the satan you know um is with the sons of god is before the throne of

00:34:49.280 God, Job, you know, and even then he has to ask, you know, permission and God sets very

00:34:54.160 clear boundaries.

00:34:54.780 You can do this and that.

00:34:56.420 And then, you know, it comes back.

00:34:57.500 All right.

00:34:57.760 Round two, you can hurt, you know, pound for pound, flesh for flesh.

00:35:00.560 You can hurt his flesh, but you can't take his life.

00:35:02.360 So Satan has always been on the leash because every created creature, ultimately, because

00:35:07.600 God is sovereign.

00:35:08.460 God is the only being in the universe that has what we would call, you know, autonomous

00:35:13.560 libertarian freedom.

00:35:15.460 uh we have you know creatures have a degree of freedom but god is the only one who is truly

00:35:20.880 autonomously free and so satan always was on a leash is my this is my view it was always on a

00:35:26.000 leash and job you know shows us that um but in the cross and resurrection uh it's like christ

00:35:32.920 you know who's always been holding that leash wrapped it around his head yeah and pulled him

00:35:37.900 in a bit like it so the leash got shorter yeah that's exactly right he's still not thrown into

00:35:41.820 the lake of fire that will come later um uh so satan's still prowling around uh but he was he had

00:35:48.340 he had more walking around room you know he had a little more slack in the leash uh pre-christ but i

00:35:54.560 you know i would poke for me i would put most of um the the happenings of of christ uh binding satan

00:36:02.600 you know the strong man like christ even gives that parable you know you're going to plunder

00:36:05.500 the house and i think that's what we're doing that's the new testament church yeah um i for

00:36:09.320 2 000 years has been plundering the house of this world um through conversion and gospel preaching

00:36:14.560 and i think even beyond just conversion and the great commission in that regard but teaching the

00:36:18.760 nations to obey all of christ's commands in in markets and in uh art and in governments and

00:36:24.980 all these different things and through righteous legislation this is kind of um all all of that

00:36:29.900 has been happening because the strong man has been bound and now you know we're going in and

00:36:34.500 plundering the house and with a strong man i think you know a certain bind i think that implies

00:36:38.920 some of you know satan's minions also being in various degrees bound yeah and then for me 80 70

00:36:47.300 i i don't i don't i've never thought of it before i'd have to give it more thought but i've never

00:36:51.480 thought of uh demonic binding in 80 70 i've always put that on like cross and resurrection right um

00:36:57.220 and then and then 80 70 i put that as as a post-mill guy i put that as the fulfillment of

00:37:02.320 christ prophecy you know matthew 24 all of that discourse this generation will not just this type

00:37:07.620 of generation but you know 40 years a generation in jewish terms like you guys some of you will

00:37:13.120 fall asleep but a lot of you are going to be awake and um this is the generation that rejected 0.50

00:37:17.780 me that you know i came to my own but they knew me not um you said you know crucify him may may

00:37:23.320 his blood be on us and our children and so uh before your eyes and your children's eyes i'm

00:37:29.180 i'm going to come back and come in on the clouds joel 2 clouds signifying you know a sense of

00:37:33.760 judgment and josephus even has you know multiple um eyewitness accounts of seeing like you know

00:37:40.240 like silhouettes of chariots going back in the billows of smoke in 87 so that's that's i i think

00:37:46.400 80 70 was this the wrapping up of a garment that the interim 40 year period between you know uh

00:37:52.100 the work of christ and but then now the old coven is really rolled up and completely done and gone

00:37:57.620 away yeah i agree with that yeah that's that's where i'm at but i think the binding of the

00:38:02.940 demonic powers a lot of that may i may be 87 i just but i don't know what about the the sacking

00:38:08.980 of the temple in jerusalem i think he's getting that really from the demons he's getting that

00:38:15.120 probably from like gentry's view of revelation who's going to come out one of these decades with

00:38:20.040 his magnum opus on revelation is commentary that's supposed to be so good from a post-mill view

00:38:25.640 yeah i've heard the tales yeah i know we everybody keeps hearing him all right that's it guys i tried

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00:40:56.900 It's the idea that when you take that early writing date of Revelation being prior to 70 AD,

00:41:03.500 then now all of a sudden it allows you to be able to see that almost all of the book has

00:41:07.700 been fulfilled. And so if you do that, then you kind of have to start going, well,

00:41:11.360 did 70 AD do something to these watchers? Because you're reading Revelation different than like a

00:41:18.260 futurist you know right would do so or yeah historist or futurist yeah yeah well and and

00:41:25.480 i mean and i do yeah i date revelation i think it's you know was written moments before 87 i

00:41:32.120 think you know these things soon to come to pass 80 80 i would put it 80 65 to 80 69 you know

00:41:37.760 something right in there but um but it's painted even the way that i read other books of the bible

00:41:42.920 now like you know like romans you know and um and some of the things that paul talks about you know

00:41:49.520 with uh future revival of israel not being in their future but perhaps in our past and that's

00:41:54.800 all that's a whole nother conversation but anyway so back to the you know seven so 70 regions and

00:42:00.040 70 honchos and they could each have dozens or hundreds or thousands of minions under them

00:42:05.120 and for what for what purpose god is so god assigns him it's as it's as punishment it's it's a it's

00:42:14.860 punitive it's essentially okay explain so there's there's several different passages in deuteronomy

00:42:19.860 that talk about this there's one in deuteronomy 4 one in deuteronomy 17 one in chapter 29 and then

00:42:25.980 the one in chapter 32 that basically talks about some of them talk about how i gave them to you

00:42:33.960 and then someone talked about how basically i gave you to them and why well it's because you

00:42:40.800 you guys essentially it's you you deserve each other so bad i'm gonna let you just have each

00:42:46.520 other and see how well that goes for you okay all right okay so so it's punitive like babysitting

00:42:52.320 like you're you're stuck with these people yeah i mean if adam was originally given dominion

00:42:56.900 and then he i think what happens is he abdicates that dominion again i don't know i don't know

00:43:02.900 how it worked prior to the flood. But however it comes to fulfillment, it's called an inheritance

00:43:12.540 for the sons of God. So somehow they're actually inheriting because their sons, sons are inheriting

00:43:17.700 things from their fathers. And so this becomes the inheritance. And I actually, I think that

00:43:24.680 the reason why God ultimately does, it's not just purely punitive. That's the myopic view or the

00:43:31.100 view of just why does he do it for in relation to the people or these fallen entities that's

00:43:37.100 punitive but there's a much bigger storyline that's going on if you uh if you read the very

00:43:41.960 next verse it says but the lord's portion is his people and jacob is his allotted inheritance

00:43:51.660 now this is a really crazy verse because because it it uses um the word yahweh yahweh's portion

00:44:00.200 is his people, but it's his allotment. And so there has to be a distinguishing

00:44:08.260 mark between the most high in verse eight and Yahweh in verse nine. And my understanding of

00:44:18.740 it is that the most high, to put it in Trinitarian terms, is the father who's giving this inheritance

00:44:26.100 to his sons and the lord the yahweh in this particular verse has to be the son who is

00:44:34.560 inheriting israel as his allotment and what's so interesting of course is that is that israel is

00:44:42.060 not actually among the 70 nations at the tower babel god creates them out of nothing many many

00:44:48.440 sent you know even centuries later because the whole point of this is that is that the son of 0.54

00:44:54.600 God is going to, at first, get this miraculous nation that God creates out of nothing.

00:45:01.840 It's going to come through the promise of the impossible promise of the seed of Isaac 0.98

00:45:08.160 through the natural birth that comes from a woman who can't give birth and a man who's 0.99

00:45:15.780 almost 100 years old. 0.99

00:45:18.300 Right.

00:45:18.800 Right.

00:45:19.060 And then the promise then expands so that you come to Psalm 2, for example.

00:45:27.340 This is really kind of the way I give people kind of a three-passage rundown of really the worldview.

00:45:34.840 The first one is verse 9, that the Son is inheriting Israel.

00:45:37.880 Then if you go to one of the most famous passages in the Old Testament about Christ, Psalm 2, 7, and 8,

00:45:44.820 I will tell of the decree the Lord said to me you are my son okay so here we have more father son

00:45:50.800 stuff today I have begotten you ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance and the

00:45:58.400 ends of the earth your possession okay so now the promise has been given that it's not just going to 0.75

00:46:04.120 stop with Israel I'm going to give it to I'm going to give you all the nations and then you go to

00:46:08.840 the great divine counsel psalm, Psalm 82, that starts off, God has taken his place in the divine 0.86

00:46:16.980 counsel in the midst of the gods he holds judgment. Next few verses are about how they judged

00:46:22.780 wickedly. Then he says, I'm going to punish you. You're going to die like men. And then the last

00:46:29.080 verse, arise, O God, judge the earth for you shall inherit all the nations. Who's the God of that

00:46:36.740 The verse, it has to be the son because that's what the promise was in Psalm two.

00:46:40.500 And so the new Testament comes into this and it takes, it takes all of this predictive

00:46:45.800 language of the son of God now becoming, you know, and Daniel seven gets fit into that.

00:46:51.540 I'm going to give you the kingdoms of the world and all this kind of stuff.

00:46:53.660 And then what happens, you know, when Jesus rise from the dead and his very last words

00:46:58.540 to the disciples, like in Matthew 28, all authority has been given to me in heaven on

00:47:06.080 our earth. Now go and make disciples of all nations. What's going on there is that Jesus

00:47:10.860 is now receiving his inheritance and it's up to the church to kind of start bringing the people

00:47:16.720 in. But the whole point of this worldview is that it's not an end to itself. It's that Jesus is the

00:47:24.980 focal point of the whole thing. So, you know, you brought up Michael earlier and in our book on the

00:47:31.700 angel of the Lord, Matt and I disagreed on this. And we still do, although I'm moving him more in

00:47:36.760 my direction. But I believe that Michael is the angel of the Lord because he's called Israel's

00:47:43.620 prince. And unless Israel has two princes over him, which is theoretically possible because

00:47:49.800 Plato said that they had two, but it's not what I ordinarily think. If Michael is Israel's prince,

00:47:57.820 then he would be the angel of the lord and um that fits totally with this worldview okay

00:48:05.360 and so you don't you don't hold to the christophany which is you know the view that i'm familiar with

00:48:13.560 that like the angel of the lord you know so like three angels appearing to abraham one of them

00:48:17.620 being the angel of the lord that one is christ pre-incarnate no i do i do believe that it's

00:48:22.560 christ pre-incarnate yes but i believe that he's the angel of the lord and that that's the same

00:48:28.680 that's the same second person of the trinity that who is the angel of the lord that the angel of

00:48:36.220 the lord is the second person of the trinity jesus but then what where does michael come into play

00:48:41.000 he that's a proper name for him he's just a different name so if just like angel of the lord

00:48:47.000 or lord yahweh or name or glory or right hand um or uh you know word word of god in john 1 1

00:48:59.540 these are all just different ways of speaking about who this person is and i think michael's

00:49:04.160 the same way it's a proper name who is like god that's all that it is and the answer is no one

00:49:08.960 is like god right but why michael that i mean that's that's the only thing i'm following you

00:49:14.040 until that like why why would michael be a proper name for the second member of the trinity you know

00:49:20.800 like i why not just call him yeshua as he's been called you know like i i've just always imagined

00:49:27.640 michael as because i mean frankly it's like it gets a little close to what what is it uh mormonism

00:49:33.360 or jehovah's witness where they you know they believe that jesus is the archangel michael you

00:49:37.980 know and that he's a created being and that he's not actually a member of the trinity right yeah so 0.65

00:49:42.800 Well, I think that the Jehovah's Witnesses, they're right and they're wrong. 0.97

00:49:48.240 The Jehovah's Witnesses, in my view, are right that Jesus and Michael are the same thing, 1.00

00:49:53.180 but they're wrong because they make Jesus a created being, and he's not a created being.

00:49:59.040 So why would they use the phrase?

00:50:00.500 I think there's some early antecedents to this, and probably the biggest one is in Exodus 15.

00:50:07.480 This is the other song of Moses.

00:50:09.080 and uh early in the song you know he's celebrating the

00:50:13.120 egyptian and the pharaoh being thrown into the sea

00:50:16.480 and in verse three he says the lord is a man of war

00:50:20.540 the lord is his name and then in verse 11 he says who is like you

00:50:26.560 oh lord among the gods who is like you majestic and holiness awesome and

00:50:32.400 glorious deeds doing wonders this is not um this is not a passage

00:50:36.720 It's talking about God and his oneness, his bare essence.

00:50:41.980 And it's not talking about the Father.

00:50:43.820 It's talking about the Son, the Lord who is a man of war, the commander of the armies of the Lord,

00:50:48.960 the one who Joshua saw when he fell down on his knees and the commander said,

00:50:55.880 take off your sandals because the place where you're standing is holy ground.

00:50:59.100 Well, that comes straight out of Burning Bush story where Moses was told the very same thing by, guess who?

00:51:04.560 The angel of the Lord.

00:51:05.640 so when it says who is like you among the gods it's a all michael is is a play on that on those

00:51:12.720 three english words so it is okay i've never heard that before yeah it's interesting so all right so

00:51:22.260 to back up so you're saying post flood tower of babel 70 different you know regions principalities

00:51:31.000 and 70 maybe chief fallen angels with all their minions

00:51:36.380 over each of these regions.

00:51:39.020 But then the Lord Jesus, second member of the Trinity,

00:51:43.760 also referred to as Michael,

00:51:45.560 but not the way that Jehovah's Witnesses would say it.

00:51:48.020 He is eternal, sharing in the one triune essence. 0.82

00:51:52.680 The one who created these guys.

00:51:54.080 Yeah, exactly.

00:51:56.140 And to him was a portion, not one of these 70 regions.

00:52:00.500 Right.

00:52:01.000 His portion came later, centuries later, but he was going to get a nation as well.

00:52:05.780 And as the only begotten son, the favored son of the father, he gets the best inheritance.

00:52:13.820 It starts off small like a mustard seed with Abraham, but grows into this tree that ends

00:52:19.520 up filling the whole earth and finds its ultimate fulfillment, not just in the nation of Israel,

00:52:25.480 but in the church and becomes an all earth encompassing tree that gives shade to the beast

00:52:33.240 and rest of the birds. And is that, that's what you're saying? That's, that's the storyline of

00:52:38.660 the, that's one of the main storylines of the old Testament. Yep. That's pretty cool. It is pretty

00:52:44.060 cool. All right. So last thing, cause you wrote a book on giants. I feel like we got to get there

00:52:48.240 a little bit, you know, we've already taken some time, but what, how do giants come into play and

00:52:53.080 what's their relevance and is there is there a sense in which we can say jesus is

00:52:58.120 among many things a giant slayer he's jack climbs the beanstalk right you know like right

00:53:06.660 so he uh when i wrote the book i wanted to i wanted to make a book that was not going to

00:53:15.420 focus on the second coming uh because there were already a few sensational books out there and

00:53:21.060 it's really the dispensationalists who have written those books right and they've really

00:53:26.400 capitalized on the whole Nephilim thing the last I suppose 10 years or so it's become big in those

00:53:32.900 circles and uh I wanted to write this as a reformed guy trying to do a biblical theology of the giants

00:53:39.260 and I wanted to end it at the first coming so that's what I did with the first edition as I

00:53:43.760 ended at the first coming and the way I did that was I took the again the universal view of the

00:53:49.960 early church with regard to what an evil spirit is. So an unclean spirit or an evil spirit in the

00:53:58.220 New Testament, these are unclean because just like other things that are unclean, the mixing of 0.99

00:54:04.900 different fabrics or those kinds of laws in Leviticus, that's what a Nephilim was. It was a 1.00

00:54:11.740 mixture of heaven and earth. It was by definition, unclean. And so I have a, I think I have a,

00:54:20.400 I think, I think I have an appendix, or at least I have some quotes in the book about this, that

00:54:26.260 it was the universal understanding of the church fathers that when a Nephilim or Rephaim,

00:54:33.140 whatever you want to call it, when it died, because it didn't belong to heaven or earth,

00:54:38.820 it became a spirit that roamed the air and those spirits became the demons of the new testament

00:54:45.460 so when jesus is casting out demons confronting demons doing anything at all with demons he's

00:54:52.980 literally continuing the battle that moses fought against um amalek that joshua fought against um

00:55:02.180 you know, the sons of Anak, that David fought against Goliath. Believe it or not, that Esther

00:55:09.520 and Mordecai fought against Haman, because if you look at the names and you look at the

00:55:14.200 genealogy of Haman, he comes from the lineage of the Rephaim. He's carrying out this storyline

00:55:21.820 that is predicted all the way back in Genesis 3.15, that there's going to be this seed war.

00:55:27.300 and he's doing it now because in the new testament at least in israel you know we could talk about

00:55:32.880 whether or not there's giants of the places but in israel they had been they had all been conquered

00:55:37.100 physically but now their spirits are still lingering and tormenting and creating havoc

00:55:43.580 like crazy and so he deals with them showing his power over them in a way that no other exorcist

00:55:50.640 or anybody like that walking around it could even come close to and they're also the ones who

00:55:56.280 recognize that he is the christ nobody else does that it's the demons that do it and sometimes he

00:56:03.260 tells them to shut up and not tell anybody else um so all right let me pick your brain about this

00:56:08.220 so that's fascinating uh but with that um legion i think it's legion yeah uh is legion the one that

00:56:15.280 asked to be cast into the pigs right right so and i'm thinking also i'm going to pair that with

00:56:20.100 something else so jesus you know he says um you know he gives this explanation of what you know

00:56:24.740 And when a demon is cast out, it goes through arid places, goes through the air, waterless places.

00:56:29.980 And then, you know, and then it's going to circle back eventually, you know, in the houses can be swept clean and put in order.

00:56:34.920 But if nothing's filled, if the house remains empty, then the demon will come back and bring seven friends worse than itself.

00:56:40.760 And the latter state of the man will be worse than the former.

00:56:43.240 Right.

00:56:43.620 It seems as though these disembodied spirits, one, it seems as though they would like to be bodied.

00:56:50.780 Right.

00:56:51.360 They would like to have a host.

00:56:52.100 because they had one before that's what's so important about it they lost their body

00:56:57.780 so so many people confuse fallen angels as if they are demons and that's wrong it's biblically

00:57:06.400 wrong and it's historically wrong and nobody believed that uh angels have their own bodies

00:57:12.140 they don't seek to embody anybody because they already have a body now they can certainly torment

00:57:17.240 or they can insinuate or they can talk to or whatever,

00:57:21.420 but they don't possess people in the same way

00:57:24.460 that an evil spirit does.

00:57:27.720 Right.

00:57:29.020 So when Jesus casts, he grants this request.

00:57:33.040 He obliges legion, casts this host of demons, 0.94

00:57:37.360 many demons into the pigs. 1.00

00:57:39.740 And then the pigs immediately commit suicide.

00:57:42.540 They run into the water.

00:57:44.560 And I've heard different things about that.

00:57:45.880 I've heard theories about, well, like, well, the Nephilim were drowned in the flood, you know, and that has something to do with it or, or they, you know, when they're disembodied, they're cast into waterless places.

00:57:58.440 And so, yes, they had the body of the pig, but that's not a body of a person.

00:58:02.080 And so they use the pig to get them to the water.

00:58:05.040 So it's not a water like what?

00:58:07.000 I don't know.

00:58:07.780 What do you think is going on there?

00:58:08.920 Why did they, why did they cause the pigs?

00:58:11.600 I do think that there's probably is something to the fact that they were destroyed in the flood.

00:58:15.880 you know of course you're assuming that the that the demon that legion was a pre-flood demon giant

00:58:22.320 he could have been a post-flood giant so gotcha if there's multiple incursions he could he could

00:58:27.240 have been someone that joshua right but there's something more going on which actually with the 0.91

00:58:31.140 pigs so remember a jew would never raise pigs this has to be gentile doing this and it's in the land 0.68

00:58:37.800 of Bashan, essentially. And the pagans would offer pigs to the gods at their dolmens, which 0.93

00:58:46.100 is their grave markers, all around this area. And so there's a whole bunch of weird stuff going on

00:58:52.200 with the very fact that there's pigs. What's that all about? Well, it's a sacrificial animal for a 0.83

00:59:01.200 pagan um ritual and then so it's an it's the whole thing is ironic really and it's not a satire but

00:59:08.920 i would say irony is probably the best word for it these guys go into the pigs which is the the

00:59:14.520 the the creature that would be offered to them anyway but the pigs are alive pigs have their

00:59:18.800 own minds and the pigs go out of their minds and i don't think that the plan of the demon was that

00:59:23.560 it would die i think that was i think that the the pig itself it went so crazy because think about 0.97

00:59:29.900 how mad legion was the man who was possessed by him right went nuts and so then they ironically

00:59:36.420 again jump into the sea of galilee which is called the deep in the in in canaanite literature and

00:59:45.660 it's a sim it's a symbol of chaos it's a symbol of the home of leviathan all kinds of weird stuff

00:59:52.860 going on there and the same way that like revelation talks about the heaven there will be no

00:59:57.340 sea because the sea the sea is symbolic like yes you know this in the genesis narrative the spirit

01:00:04.700 is hovering above the waters you know and uh brooding above the waters and then you know but

01:00:09.400 the sea the earth is without form and void and it's the sea represents chaos it represents and

01:00:17.180 death you know that the sea will give up its debt you know it's like it's um and then there's

01:00:22.280 something to be said for it's not just that the um the uh the the fact that the physics are being

01:00:29.760 you know supernaturally breached but um you know pointing towards christ and his deity but

01:00:35.260 it seems like there's something symbolic to you know to jesus walking on water tramp treading

01:00:40.820 on the sea you know oh yeah 100 yeah that's any thoughts on another discussion i have lots of

01:00:45.800 thoughts on that i'm preaching through luke right now and i think that when jesus is on the sea

01:00:50.620 that, uh, and you know, whether it's calming the storm or, or having Peter walk in the water or

01:00:56.280 whatever he's doing, even, even with the pigs jumping into the sea, there's always satanic

01:01:01.620 overtones going on because Leviathan is the dragon is Satan for, to think about John 12 and

01:01:09.640 John 20, those are all being connected. And so when Jesus is doing stuff around the sea or on

01:01:16.320 the sea he's showing that he has power over the the creature who lives in the sea which

01:01:22.620 is represented by a leviathan which is therefore represents satan it's an attack directly on satan

01:01:28.040 himself okay yep going going back to the garden real quick um so the you know the serpent um

01:01:39.000 um do you so do you think that when when satan is tempting eve um and it's this you know talking

01:01:47.820 serpent but a serpent with legs right because the curse is that it would then so i don't i don't

01:01:52.620 think so i don't think that's what's going on okay i was so i was gonna ask is that it seems like

01:01:58.880 eve is talking to someone that she's maybe seen before yeah she's not caught off guard but go

01:02:05.820 go ahead and give me your view okay so uh the when you go to extra testamental literature

01:02:13.800 jewish literature and this is this appears in two or three places some of the dead sea scrolls had

01:02:19.360 this uh a book called i think the apocalypse of abraham has this when they describe the watchers

01:02:25.620 they describe them as serpentine in appearance so i think that what's happening there is the serpent

01:02:34.220 is actually, it's more than a metaphor. It's not just a metaphor, but it's a picture of evil

01:02:42.640 in some really strange ways. The word Nahash can mean a serpent as a noun. It can mean a shining

01:02:51.080 one as an adjective. And as a verb, it means divination. Heiser says that the Nahash could

01:02:58.300 be a substantival adjective there so that you could actually translate it as the shining one

01:03:04.020 spoke to her and the reason i say that is because if watchers are associated with serpents but they

01:03:10.840 have humanoid uh appearance and i think like i i think tend to think of in the ufo world like

01:03:17.700 reptilians i don't know that they are the watchers but that's a good way of thinking about

01:03:21.640 they're humanoid but they're serpentine and i i i think that's that eve is not talking to us

01:03:28.760 to a possessed serpent or a talking serpent but she's talking to a watcher and she wasn't surprised

01:03:35.840 because this is where he belongs because it's the divine council they're all over the place and

01:03:40.440 this is just the one who happens to come up to her to to test her the same way that the satan does

01:03:45.920 in job one in that divine council scene when the sons of god go with the satan to talk to the lord

01:03:52.380 about what should they do with job down on the earth right i just i think it's a it's just much

01:03:58.880 it's much uh it's this is not something that should cause people to lose their faith in the

01:04:06.560 bible because eve is talking to a talking snake right you know you hear that objection from

01:04:12.280 atheists all the time no there's something very different going on there right so then how would

01:04:17.780 you explain the curse though of uh the curse towards the serpent yeah not that kind of language

01:04:23.320 is used all the time it's used in isaiah 14 she's in um ezekiel 28 it's using obadiah um that you

01:04:30.460 will fall from the heights and you go down low as you can go it's a it's a way of metaphorically

01:04:35.940 describing that you are at the highest place that there could be and now you're gonna you're gonna

01:04:40.480 run around in the dirt of the earth eat the dust you're gonna eat the dust exactly right we see

01:04:47.220 yeah, we have that metaphor in English to this day.

01:04:50.080 Right, bite the dust.

01:04:51.000 Another one bites the dust.

01:04:53.400 Yep.

01:04:54.200 All right, okay.

01:04:55.120 That's very interesting.

01:04:57.380 It's piecing together a lot of different things for me

01:05:00.620 as I'm just personally looking into some of these different views.

01:05:05.320 And it's fascinating.

01:05:07.720 I mean, it is fascinating.

01:05:09.040 It does make sense of so much, especially like mythology.

01:05:13.440 and it's like oh man like like the world really is like there really is a spiritual battle the

01:05:20.940 world really is a magical place and um and and it was i mean i just can't imagine like you know i 0.83

01:05:28.360 think of like noah and like uh man it was it was probably pretty crazy to live in the antediluvian

01:05:35.560 world i mean you probably like i mean from my understanding you've got dinosaurs right it's i'm

01:05:40.680 I'm a young, you know, six day young earth creationist.

01:05:45.080 So, I mean, I don't think that you've got dinosaurs for millions of years and then man.

01:05:49.520 But so, no, like, you know, you've got dinosaurs, you've got giants, you've got fallen angels, you know, that are had their hand and all these things.

01:05:59.400 That are visibly showing themselves.

01:06:01.360 Visibly showing themselves.

01:06:02.560 And you're trying to build a boat and God's going to flood the whole world.

01:06:06.440 I mean, that's that's a crazy time.

01:06:08.880 It is.

01:06:09.100 would make for a good movie if some crazy guy named aronofsky didn't already ruin it yeah someone

01:06:14.600 could do it well yeah um okay uh any any final thoughts you want to leave the listener with

01:06:19.700 no not on these topics and there's we could talk i could talk about this for forever really so

01:06:25.580 cool there's no way we're just go with it we're just gonna have to have you back

01:06:29.300 that's that's the solution okay well thank you so much how can our listeners find you

01:06:34.680 do you want to reference one of your books and where they could buy it if they want to go check

01:06:38.440 it out yeah i mean uh you can go to my church web or well to my website first douglasvandorn.com

01:06:45.320 and i have all the books linked there and have a whole bunch of other stuff there too i you know

01:06:50.500 i've done tons of podcasts so those are all linked on there and it's i redid the site um last fall

01:06:57.020 so i think it looks better than it did uh that's where you can go all my books are on amazon so i

01:07:03.140 just do the print on demand through amazon and that's been good to me so far they haven't they

01:07:07.840 haven't censored me or anything so just look up uh doug van dorn yeah on amazon and then also

01:07:14.000 people can go to our church website it's rbcnc.com so just the initials for reformed baptist church

01:07:23.360 of northern colorado and uh you can check out our church there you can see what you know we believe

01:07:29.400 and very it's it's funny joel because as as crazy as i am our worship service is totally conservative

01:07:36.660 and right like a michael horton kind of a urc sort of a thing and and people it kind of freaks

01:07:43.460 some people out because they hear about me from blurry creatures or whatever and then they they

01:07:48.120 go to the go to the church service and like this is what it wasn't what i thought it was gonna be

01:07:51.500 right so i mean that's what i am i'm a reformed guy i'm a reformed baptist and right and we have

01:07:56.940 all of our all of our sermons are for free on the website most of them are in pdf so you can

01:08:02.400 download those do whatever you want if there's a weird topic i mean i've been preaching for 22

01:08:07.900 years i've gone through a lot of books of the bible i don't skip verses if it's weird and it's

01:08:13.220 there and i've preached on it chances are that i've talked about this so it's a great resource

01:08:18.240 for people to be able to dive into on all kinds of these subjects so great all right well thank

01:08:25.500 you so much for your time appreciate it yeah thanks for having me on man absolutely god bless you too

01:08:32.400 We'll be right back.

The NXR Podcast - October 28, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - The Divine Council & Mt. Olympus - ICYMI with Doug Van Dorn

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