In this episode, Pastor Joel Webbin is joined by David Rees, CEO of Armored Republic and a local pastor, to discuss the need for a theological maximalism and unity in the church. God hates division.
00:06:53.700Right. So you've got you've got this this issue of there's sort of a more of a power struggle that could occur and there's less centralized power.
00:07:01.180Right. And with the state, you know, even though you can have a you could have a monarchy that is a valid government that God himself appointed generally a Republican form of government.
00:07:14.060and those things are, are, uh, have different tendencies, but you, you're going to have a
00:07:20.520hard time, even with the absolute monarchy, there's a difficulty of knowing what's actually
00:07:24.580going on. The tendency of absolute monarchs is to start delegating out everything to a bunch of
00:07:28.460different bureaucrats and they don't even know what's going on. It's kind of like in the book
00:07:30.940of Esther where Haman has ordered the genocide of the Jews and, you know, Darius, uh, Hashuerus,
00:07:37.600the emperor Darius, he doesn't even really know who's been executed, who's been ordered to be
00:07:41.760executed, and he finds out his wife is one of those people, and then he finds out that there's
00:07:45.660been this general order of genocide, and he goes, oh, oh, this is a problem. Like, that's the level
00:07:50.780of disconnect that even in absolute monarchy you can have from having to manage a large realm.
00:07:56.780So I think that what we're talking about principally today is unity in the church and
00:08:01.300unity in the state and getting rallying points for that. And so I want to suggest that the
00:08:07.300rallying point in the church, in short form, is covenanting around some sort of unity that's
00:08:13.540defined, and the same is in the state. And those don't have to be the exact same covenant.
00:08:18.400I think ideally they would be, but I think that the reality is that in a church you have to have
00:08:23.420more unity than you have to in the state, and eventually the goal would be to see this idea
00:08:29.440of a covenanted uniformity, where you have unity in doctrine, but you then capture that in a form,
00:08:35.560an external form, and that external form is called a confession. And then you also have an
00:08:40.340external form that's the form of government of the church and the form of worship that's going
00:08:44.700to be dealt with. And in the state, you have similarly a constitution for the state. And so
00:08:50.260these are the things that are getting worked out. And so in the interim, the question is,
00:08:53.940what are the intermediate steps to advance towards those goals? So I'd be curious if you have
00:08:59.760disagreements with those perspectives on the goals and the rallying points.
00:09:03.200No, so far, I agree. I think, you know, one thing that's important in the church and with the state in both of those realms is just triage, you know, so in the church, you know, a theological triage of saying, you know, what must one believe, what should one believe and what may one believe, you know, you must believe this in order to be, you know, a member of this church.
00:09:30.260You should believe this, although it may be an arena where we leave room for some degree of disagreement.
00:09:39.800But, you know, but we still have a position that we think is right.
00:11:17.540But I want to suggest that covenants are binding across generations.
00:11:22.380And so if that's the case, if covenants are binding across generations, then whether we
00:11:29.840find it convenient or not, may have to think about covenants that have been reached before
00:11:35.660or decisions of the church that might have been reached before.
00:11:38.940So, and we also have to ask ourselves, is there a cumulative work that's been done or is this sort of this chaos hodgepodge where everybody has to like study everything that's ever happened from the first century forward and kind of piece it all together?
00:11:55.900So to cut to the chase on that, I mean, what I want to communicate is essentially I would suggest that the Reformation reached a new high watermark and there's a rallying point as defined there.
00:12:05.760And so whether you're – if you're Baptist, you're basically going to say the London Baptist Confession is the high watermark.
00:12:11.200If you're Congregationalist, you're going to say the Savoy Declaration.
00:12:13.640And if you're Presbyterian, you're going to say the Westminster Confession.
00:12:16.420And if you look at those documents, they agree about basically everything except for baptism and church government.
00:12:24.120And so the idea that it's not possible to get to significant doctrinal unity is something that I just say that's not the case.
00:12:31.380I mean the Holy Spirit simply does it.
00:12:35.140So right preaching of the word, careful guarding of those things.
00:12:38.460And so I want to suggest that on an institutional level, we need to rally to, as churches, a confessional standard.
00:12:47.180And then as we disagree, so like in your case being Baptist, my case being Presbyterian, our job becomes arguing with each other about those disagreements to where we can come to unity.
00:12:58.680So one of us is wrong, and so either children need to be baptized or they don't.
00:13:03.800And so I can deal with you as a brother and as a friend and say, hey, let's talk about other stuff.
00:13:23.960Let's work through the points of disagreement on those.
00:13:26.260So you go back to the scriptures itself.
00:13:28.500So this, I think, a commitment to seeking unity, not just seeking to shut up, right, but seeking to actually come to agreement.
00:13:39.560And that happens while arguing with each other.
00:13:42.340And I think a lot of the times, you know, the problem is that we are impatient with each other.
00:13:46.720And we say, if I've talked to this person about this doctrine once or twice, you know, I'm just not going to talk to them about it anymore or I'm going to not be their friend anymore or whatever.
00:13:54.160And so you go, this stuff that is not the gospel proper, if we're not in some sort of a church covenant together, then we can still be pushing to try to come to resolution on those things.
00:14:07.860So I think the confessional standard is what we have to use to say that.
00:14:13.020And so a lot of people are going to say that Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession is too long.
00:14:17.320And so I think they're going to criticize that as too detailed.
00:14:19.960So what do you think about those as the points to rally around?
00:14:23.240I think that's good. One, I think there's a misunderstanding of unity. So I think that's
00:14:31.020part of the hang up is the Bible actually speaks to at least two different types of unity. Because
00:14:37.060when we think unity, I think that we've been indoctrinated with a light, fluffy, watered down
00:14:45.580Christianity that anytime it discusses unity, it's only talking about one kind of unity,
00:14:52.420which is a biblical unity, but even that has been perverted. And so the type of unity in 99.9%
00:14:59.780of sermons that discuss unity, the type of unity in view is what I would call a unity of love,
00:15:07.460or you could put it another way. You could say a unity of common care. So this would be the type
00:15:13.200of unity that insists in scripture that we should bear with the weak, that we should exercise charity
00:15:21.720towards one another in the midst of disagreement. And that is biblical. There is a biblical precedent
00:15:28.460for that type of unity. The problem is not that that type of unity is wrong. The problem is that
00:15:34.400there's more than one type of unity. Ephesians 4 is probably one of the premier chapters that
00:15:39.600speaks about not a unity of love or common care, but rather a unity of the faith or unity of the
00:15:46.800knowledge of the faith, which is a unity of common, not care, but common conviction.
00:15:52.340Ephesians 4, what's being asserted there is that one, Christ is the head of the church,
00:15:56.860and as a good head, he gives gifts to the church in the form of leaders. Leaders are not a burden,
00:16:04.020but good leaders is the ideal, and they should be viewed as a blessing, a gift to the church.
00:16:08.920Christ gives different kinds of leaders, and I would say not just different kinds of leaders
00:16:13.260for different roles and tasks, but also different stages of this church building project. So he gives
00:16:18.820Ephesians 2.20, cross-referencing that from Ephesians 4, he gives apostles and prophets
00:16:24.140for leg one. If we're thinking of a construction team, it's not just that the same men
00:16:30.480are working from the project from start to finish, but there are different teams of men
00:16:36.440who are particularly skilled in different forms of labor and one team of men, namely those who
00:16:43.740lay a foundation, they come first. And then when the foundation is firmly laid, then we don't need
00:16:51.120to do that part of the house building project over again. And we don't need those men. We still
00:16:58.860need their foundation. We need their work that's already been done, but we don't need those men.
00:17:03.460So we, we still have the foundation, which is, I would say that it's the apostles and prophets in scripture rated. So we still have the apostles and prophets. We still have their work, but we don't still have modern day apostles and prophets working, but we still have the work of the apostles and prophets. And it's a work that was good. It's a sufficient work. It's a perfect work inspired by the Holy Spirit with Christ himself as the capstone. And so it's a work that we don't need to do over.
00:17:31.220And now you have evangelists and shepherds, teachers coming in.
00:17:35.800And I think that's who is working now.
00:17:59.940Two phases and four offices. That's my view, believe it or not. And so that being said,
00:18:06.400I think that that's really helpful for people to realize, but here's the big point. So Jesus
00:18:10.860is the head of the church. He gives gifts to the church in the form of men, leaders,
00:18:14.960qualified leaders for two separate waves, stages of this work, all building one project. We're
00:18:21.140not building two different, it's not two different projects. It's not two different houses. It's
00:18:24.620one house in two stages. We need to know what stage we're on now so that we're not trying
00:18:29.780to, so that we're actually framing walls and not taking a jackhammer and trying to undo a
00:18:35.880foundation. No, that's done and it's good. And then the last thing is, what is the chief aim,
00:18:41.300the ultimate purpose, the goal? And the goal is not unity of common care. It's not unity of
00:18:49.280charity in the midst of disagreement. No, the goal is so that we would achieve a unity of faith,
00:18:55.780the same knowledge of the same son of God. Not, well, I think Jesus looks like this and I think
00:19:02.320Jesus looks like that, but we love each other and we'll tolerate each other nonetheless. That is
00:19:06.800nowhere in view with the type of unity being discussed in Ephesians 4. It's not a unity of
00:19:11.820common care or love. It's a unity of knowledge, faith, common conviction, so that we would no
00:19:18.360longer be like children tossed to and fro by every wind and wave of doctrine, but we would actually
00:19:23.340grow up into the fullness of the maturity of Christ. And Christ is not bipolar. Christ is not
00:19:29.300schizophrenic. He doesn't have multiple personality disorder. Christ is one person. And so too,
00:19:35.640his body should be one body that is not merely held together by love, but held together by
00:19:41.660agreement. And so I even wrote part of that in my book. I wrote a whole chapter saying
00:19:46.700unity of common care, right? Toleration of one another, charity towards one another in the midst
00:19:52.460of disagreement is good. But let us never forget that the first, the first kind of unity, the best
00:19:58.980kind of unity that we're aiming for is not that we're united merely through love in the midst of
00:20:04.940disagreement, but we're actually united because we agree. And the way that we get there is not
00:20:10.600through tolerance. The way we get there is through persuasion.
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00:23:06.520that's excellent i agree with everything you said there and i think that the idea that we begin with
00:23:11.700we have this we have this unity of care in order to get to the unity of the faith so that the
00:23:19.220conversations and persuasion have the relational context to keep happening absolutely and so i
00:23:25.000think that exactly right so we we care we care for each other in that way in order to make it so
00:23:29.620that we can keep discussing so we're removing as many offenses as we can so the offense of
00:23:33.940disagreement is the thing that's there is the focus so the goal is to close it out you know in
00:23:39.020manufacturing uh you talk about the idea of of work in progress and work in progress is a really
00:23:43.820dangerous thing because you just end up with all this you got raw material inventory you take it
00:23:48.880in. You make it work in progress. It's been altered. It can't be made into something else
00:23:52.460now. So you have all the illiquidity. You can't turn it into something different that you would
00:23:57.540have if it were a finished product. But you have none of the value of a finished product. And so
00:24:01.520the finished product is valuable because you can sell it. The raw material is valuable because
00:24:06.300it's able to be turned into all sorts of stuff. And the stuff that's work in progress has all
00:24:12.380of the negatives of both and none of the positives of either. And so, and so it's when you have
00:24:18.540disagreements, it's sort of work in progress. And I think the goal has to be between Christians0.76
00:24:23.940to seek to limit the work in progress. We don't try to bring up everything under the sun that we0.93
00:24:29.380can think of that we might disagree about, but instead your goal is to find, you know, find
00:24:34.000unity, have a common care, and to then seek to resolve disagreements by seeking to be careful
00:24:41.240and self-control. And I think some people who like to debate, I think a lot of people who are
00:24:46.400really gifted in a prophetic way just like to debate. And they go and they want to debate with
00:24:51.880people whether they're mature or not. And because those people haven't matured into a place of
00:24:56.780being careful about what disputes they're opening up, they sort of end up making strife all over
00:25:02.840the place. And we could joke about this as the cage stage, which is basically people who care
00:25:06.780about doctrine coming to realize some important doctrine and then realizing they want to debate
00:25:11.100about that, and then they learn about other neat things that matter in the Bible, and it's a debate
00:25:14.420about those. So I think one of the really important things for pursuing unity is recognizing what you
00:25:20.140talked about as the unity of care and the unity of love, but then using those things to help to
00:25:26.240resolve disputes. So the question becomes, what order do you pick disputes to have? Because I
00:25:33.100could just walk around finding people and being like, let's argue about head coverings, or I can
00:25:39.160say let's argue about um whether the scriptures are infallible and systematically true and then
00:25:45.540okay well just out of curiosity are you a head covering guy yeah we do head covering in our
00:25:50.440church and so people bring it up early because they see women covering their heads and they go
00:25:54.140so do i have to we have to like cover our heads together like well to the men know
00:25:58.300exactly yeah women know either but we think that they should but right that's something that we
00:26:03.000don't require for example for membership exactly we don't require it but um but my wife and
00:26:08.100daughters wear a head covering and I've, I've talked about it and I try not to make it a point
00:26:12.280of division, but it's another one of those things. It's like, you know, the Bible has something to
00:26:17.120say about this. There is a right position. And especially when you study that one in light of
00:26:21.260the text, but also throughout church history, I mean, the, it's the dominant lion's share of
00:26:27.180church history is head covering until, until really, you know, I mean, late 1800s and especially,
00:26:33.740you know the 1950s and 60s and they were even you know with the temperance movement you know
00:26:38.540and first wave feminism and things like that they were they uh certain groups of women in local
00:26:43.080churches even scheduled like the same sunday that they in protest they were all going to take off0.92
00:26:47.420their hats and throw them down and you look at that and and then you look at what it was teamed
00:26:51.580up with and it's like this the same group that was anti-head covering was the same group you know
00:26:56.460that was propelling feminism and all and when you look at the history of it it's like it's hard to
00:27:02.520argue that this is a good thing yeah yeah so i mean i think it's very clear in the scriptures
00:27:07.260but i also think that one of the things that we try to look for is how can you avoid how can you
00:27:12.180avoid uh making additional barriers right um you know without dishonoring the lord right our goal
00:27:17.140is to honor the lord and then how do we also make it so people can initially you know come in and i
00:27:21.960think that the idea that one thing is i think the goal actually is over time we want the church to
00:27:28.040come to unity in a place where we actually end up making it more complicated to become a member
00:27:32.380and more complicated to become an officer, right?
00:28:01.840And the scholarly level on that versus, like, you know, the stuff that gets published today, you know, it's just, you know, you go, I'm going to keep reading Gill and Poole.
00:28:10.540So I think this idea of the pursuit of the goal of greater unity of the doctrine, one of the things that happens, I think, in Ephesians in the text is it talks about the idea of the bond of peace.
00:28:22.540and this idea of bearing with one another in love
00:28:28.820and endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
00:28:33.640I think the bond of peace, whenever you see the word bond in Scripture,
00:28:37.300you should be thinking about covenant.
00:28:39.480This idea that you form a bond that's established by oaths or by vows.
00:28:46.760And so the bond of peace is the covenant of peace or the covenant of grace.0.61
00:28:51.240But it's also a bond that establishes peace between Jew and Gentile and all that, where there's this, in the new administration of the covenant of grace, we're sharing together in this covenant administration.0.61
00:29:03.260And so this idea that the context of covenant.
00:29:07.000And so I think the other thing you mentioned is this idea of how do you make it so it's not impossible for people to join.
00:29:11.980And I think that you have to recognize the biblical idea that there are levels of maturity.
00:29:17.160And so the Apostle John talks about children, young men, and fathers.
00:29:23.420And so what I think is important is that you have sort of a minimal set of doctrine that's necessary to teach people in sort of membership classes are typically how this gets done in churches.
00:29:35.540But you have some sort of a church government and I think the idea of a shorter catechism,
00:29:39.260The whole purpose of differentiating between a larger catechism and shorter catechism in the Presbyterian tradition is to say the shorter catechism is the milk that's necessary to help somebody to come to the table so they can commune.
00:29:53.060And then a larger catechism is how you mature somebody and it's meat.
00:29:57.420And I think this realization that there are stages in the process of development of the Christian life.
00:30:04.140And we're so individualistic in America that we like to pretend like everybody's journey is totally unique.
00:30:10.700And it's just like, no, actually, my experiences are overwhelmingly going to be have points of reference that are similar in the experiences of of believers throughout history and that are referenced, obviously, in the scriptures.
00:30:23.620And the scriptures give us a a complete set of all the stuff we need to address, all the experiences that we have in the Christian life.
00:30:30.240But so, so this idea that there's, there's sort of, there's stages. So the, the, the child, the young man and the father. And I think that what we need to recognize is what's really necessary for, for the child is going to be essentially, you're going to have a commitment to the doctrine of the scripture and its authority.
00:30:48.520you're going to have some sort of a shorter catechism or something like that for introductory
00:30:53.280teaching for people. And then you're going to have in that introductory category, you're going
00:30:58.380to necessarily have the solos, tulip, trinity, incarnation, and a basic federal headship of
00:31:06.160Adam and Christ. You don't have to have a really elaborate covenant theology or whatever, but you
00:31:09.980need to understand that you're sinful in Adam and you're righteous in Christ. And so those things
00:31:16.620They're going to give you, here's the stuff we've got to give to people.
00:31:20.160And so often people treat like tulip, like it's some, like, grand thing that you need to deal with when you're a father or whatever.
00:31:26.700It's just like, that's milk that guards the solas.
00:31:30.900And so then you also need to have a commitment to the basic law order that the Ten Commandments summarizes and some sort of a commitment about, based upon that local church, you're going to have to deal with how the sacraments are administered.
00:31:44.220You're going to have to deal with some sort of submission to church authority.
00:31:47.420And then you're going to have to deal with prayer because it's essential to the Christian life.
00:31:53.540So that's actually the content of the Shorter Catechism.
00:31:57.280And so, you know, those things, I don't think you look at the Shorter Catechism.
00:32:00.740I've had a lot of really solid Reformed Baptist friends that basically are like, yeah, I agree with the Shorter Catechism in elaborate detail, except when we get to the baptism part.
00:32:08.220And so it's just that, you know, you can just grab that slightly.
00:32:11.340If there's not a better Baptist catechism that can be used, you can grab that, you know, replace the baptism part and you've basically got something.
00:32:17.360So I think that those that idea, if there's a rejection of what's there in the shorter catechism, there's a fundamental rejection of of the basics of the faith.
00:32:26.520Right. No, you're right. This is not this is not elite theological, you know, higher education for theologians.
00:32:37.340We've just, the bar has fallen so far that I remember Voddy Bauckham saying, you know, years ago that anytime you find a young man who is zealous for the Lord and, you know, possesses some, you know, some theological, you know, inclination, like, hey, he's got some potential, you know, in the theological realm, seems like he's got a sharp mind and he's zealous for theology and he knows a few things.
00:33:02.860many people in the church just instinctively begin to push him towards the pastorate and say,
00:33:09.540well, you should consider going to seminary. I think you're called to be a pastor. And part
00:33:12.840of the reason we do that is really to protect ourselves, our own apathy towards doctrine
00:33:19.480and these kinds of things. So what we want to do is, because he's got to be called to
00:33:23.940pastoral ministry, because if he's not, that's how we assuage our guilty consciences. Because
00:33:28.380if he's not, well then maybe he's just, um, maybe this is actually normative. Maybe he's just, uh,
00:33:34.640your average, you know, young Christian man. Um, and so then, you know, then, then what do I say0.99
00:33:40.180about myself? You know, but if I can say like, oh, well he's, you know, he's a Christian 2.0,
00:33:45.960he's, he's one of those rare special guys. Then I can, then I can maintain the illusion that,
00:33:51.320um, that I'm, you know, I'm not bad. I'm just the average Christian and he's above average
00:33:56.420when the reality is, no, the bar has slipped and fallen so much that the guys right now that we
00:34:02.620send to seminary to be pastors, you know, again, going back to, you know, earlier times in the
00:34:08.8201700s and 1800s, these just would have been, you know, many of them would have just been your
00:34:14.120average Christians. Yeah. And I think one of the things, you know, you pointed out in a lecture1.00
00:34:20.640that I was able to enjoy hearing you give, you had said that, you know, all over the place,
00:34:25.700We're essentially in a place where we keep promoting people to their point of incompetence.
00:34:30.120And I think a part of that is any gifting at all that might relate to some office, the tendency to push people up.
00:34:36.040And I think what you just brought up, that idea of trying to assuage your own guilt, is a part of why.
00:34:41.780And so you have been an advocate in your book.
00:34:45.120You advocate this idea that gathering around a particular location so you can work together, the need to concentrate because we've diffused too much.
00:34:53.420was we've dissipated our energy as a church and therefore made it so we're incapable of
00:34:58.200accomplishing anything. So we're, we're too spread out. We're led by people who are in positions that
00:35:03.860are just above their point of competency. And so that's obviously a recipe for success. And so
00:35:09.760that's why we're winning all over the place. Just, we're all tired of winning, right? This is,
00:35:13.780this is, this is what we're going through. It's winning exhaustion. So that's, it's obviously
00:35:18.040destructive of all those ends. So, I mean, if we think about the process of maturing and we think
00:35:24.300we need to pull people in and mature them and have well-ordered sort of teams. And I think there's
00:35:30.320also this idea that the young man is differentiated in John, in first John, he says the young men
00:35:36.180fight. And so the, the fighting of the young men is, is an indicator you're trying to, you raise
00:35:43.680children until they've got basically those things in place where they they understand the basic
00:35:49.080doctrines they understand the basic law order they understand how to use the means of grace
00:35:53.760and then they're kind of getting into the rhythm of christian life with you know how does their
00:35:58.520worship go and stuff like that and then they're also trying to get into how do i get into christian
00:36:02.520community right so once they're plugged into those things most people a lot of pastors look at that
00:36:07.280like great success we're done here like this is like masterful like this guy this is done well
00:36:12.520that's when they're able to now be useful fighting then right and so and so that that idea that the
00:36:19.340fighting then you you have them go and do ministry you have them do evangelism you have them work
00:36:22.840through you and and you're you're starting to go through things like let's talk about the confession
00:36:26.920let's talk about the larger catechism let's let's get an overview of the bible let's make it so you
00:36:30.320have some idea of how the books of the bible fit together you're starting to really get them the
00:36:34.020system and they're going to get lumpy in different areas and they're going to be really good at this
00:36:38.660and terrible at that. And, and your, your goal is to help to make a more mature, developed
00:36:44.580individual where their weak points are not disastrous anymore. And their strong points
00:36:49.520are really able to be used powerfully. Right. And so in, in first John, you're right. Cause
00:36:54.520it's, it's those three categories. I remember, you know, preaching through first John and for
00:36:58.500the little children, uh, there's a major emphasis, uh, really only two emphases. Uh, one is on, um,
00:37:04.560that, uh, that you recognize that, uh, it's the, the doctrine of adoption that you recognize that
00:37:09.880God is your father. Um, and so understanding father, God, and in, in, in that, you know,
00:37:15.020the father, uh, the father is God, but the father is not the son and the father is not the spirit,
00:37:20.340your basic Trinitarian doctrine, uh, you could include, you know, you could derive from that,
00:37:24.920uh, that there's at least a, uh, a minimum understanding of Trinitarian theology. Um,
00:37:30.060so understanding, you know, God is father adoption. And then the second emphasis for
00:37:33.880little children is the forgiveness of sins, uh, that from the first day of conversion, um, that
00:37:40.180there is inherently, um, a basic understanding of salvation. And so I think a lot of, when I think
00:37:45.980of, you know, catechisms for the new believer, a lot of it is going to be a basic doctrine of God,
00:37:51.100theology proper, knowing God is father and the father is distinct from the son and the spirit,
00:37:55.120and then the forgiveness of sins. So theriology and an understanding of salvation, um, that God
00:38:00.380saves and also how God saves. Uh, but then for young men, you're right. It's, uh, I write to
00:38:05.300you young men because you have overcome the evil one. And then when he, and he repeats all these
00:38:09.420things twice. And then the, you know, the second time where he says it, I write to you young men
00:38:13.540because the word of God dwells richly in you. And so then he gives the means by which they have
00:38:19.180overcome the evil one. They haven't just done it by brute strength. Uh, they've done it by the
00:38:23.180indwelling rich indwelling of the word of God. And so, uh, now it's moving from just a theology
00:38:29.200proper and soteriology to a more comprehensive biblical theology, you know, from Genesis to
00:38:35.520Revelation is how you could exegete that the whole word of God is now dwelling in you. And then with
00:38:40.720the word of God, the law word of God. And so understanding more of, you know, God's law. And
00:38:45.300then lastly, I write to you fathers. And that one almost seems the most simplistic, but I think it's
00:38:50.120actually that, you know, it's the most beautiful and complex of all. But I write to you fathers
00:38:55.120for, you know, he who is from the beginning.
00:38:58.880And so now there's this, this ancient of days and not just ancient of days, speaking of
00:39:04.000God himself, but this ancient passed down, historic body of doctrine, you know, him who
00:39:10.820is from the beginning, you and this, you now are the embodiment, the full embodiment of
00:39:16.220all those saints who came before you, the full work of the Christian theology and doctrine
00:39:20.760that's been passed down generation from generation.
00:39:23.340and first john will preach i guess is what i'm saying so no that's that's amazing thank you for
00:39:27.720that brother that's awesome and i think one of the glorious things about the tail end of it with the
00:39:31.660fathers is it basically repeats you know you you know the father it's like twice right there's a
00:39:36.640full circle yeah it's like this emphasis on the deep deep knowledge of god right it's like it's
00:39:41.700a hebraism of this like you know god you know god like it's the deep knowledge of god so which is
00:39:47.900the knowledge of god is how we are sanctified right and and the word of god is how we get the
00:39:52.580knowledge of God. And that results in the bearing of fruit. And so I just, you know, this idea that
00:39:58.200the deep knowledge of God, the rich knowledge of God is how we're matured. And that as pastors,
00:40:05.940we have to teach the doctrine. We also have to rebuke people because we become blind. And so
00:40:12.060this rebuking part, it's always been the hardest part for me of the pastoral ministry is just the
00:40:16.020rebuking, the correcting of showing them what to put on, right? And then you have this training
00:40:20.960and righteousness this is the second timothy 3 16 stuff where the word of god is profitable for
00:40:25.820useful for and the training part of of walking through it giving the example giving on the spot
00:40:31.900rebuke and correction and and helping to you know watch and give critique and all that kind of stuff
00:40:37.060where you're helping them to work it out um i think that that's what the the young man stage
00:40:42.680is really about the young man stage is really about helping them to do that in the context of
00:40:48.060fighting and the child stage you're doing that in the context of sheltering right you're you're
00:40:52.600giving the protection of the christian community you're trying to protect them from heresy and all
00:40:55.780that the young man stage you're like hey go read this heretical stuff let's talk about it like
00:40:59.440you know what critique this thing you're like let's go out here let's go engage on the street
00:41:03.860and do evangelism with other people or okay do apologetics in your own community and network and
00:41:08.400the people you know and try to evangelize and pull them in and we oftentimes just get people
00:41:12.480saved and then just try to get them to go evangelize right away and i go hey let's let's get
00:41:16.360you safe let's let's great now let's disciple let's get the basic stuff in there and once they're
00:41:20.600young men you kind of go okay now let's let's train now you can sort of take some risks more
00:41:25.300in your in your network opportunity arises in your immature okay great but you're you know this
00:41:30.960there's some times where you have to kind of push past boundaries where people don't want to talk
00:41:35.880about things of the lord don't want to know what's going on with you becoming a christian or whatever
00:41:39.240and you got to take risks of pushing past i think that young man stage is really where you want to
00:41:43.380encourage people to take those risks in their network is by the time where they're they're
00:41:46.540a little they've become a little bit competent at using the sword um and so that uh that that
00:41:51.620thing i think from from there the young man i think a lot of times a young man who's learning
00:41:57.260to fight that's really a great place for a guy to be a deacon um because there's two promises
00:42:02.300with the office of deacon the office of deacon has the promise that you'll gain boldness by
00:42:06.760exercising it well and that you'll get good reputation right and those are things you really
00:42:10.900need for the office of elder. And I wish, you know, God's providence and everything, but, you
00:42:17.080know, I haven't, I didn't go through the office of deacon before becoming an elder. And I think
00:42:21.740that in a lot of ways, it may have been a good thing for me to help me to be better at things
00:42:26.440like rebuking, because I would have had to go through more of that grind in that less, less
00:42:32.620high office, being kind of forced to go through some of those conflicts without as much stress
00:42:37.380on it. And so that's just something that- And that is a lot of the deaconate. People don't
00:42:42.100think, they think of the deacon's food drive. They think, well, it's just charity. It's just
00:42:46.940welfare. You're caring for the physical needs of widows and orphans. And that's just to0.99
00:42:54.060misunderstand the descriptive nature of Acts chapter six with these seven men. Number one,
00:42:59.700like just the bar, seven men filled with the Holy Spirit and wisdom. It's not that we need to be
00:43:04.700filled with the Holy Spirit and wisdom so that we can pass out soup. The saints are doing, back to0.81
00:43:10.760Ephesians 4, the saints are responsible as the executive office of carrying out the work of
00:43:16.620ministry. But what these deacons are going to be doing is organizing that work, seeing to it that
00:43:22.060no widow is overlooked. But not just that, widows have already been overlooked, and so they're doing
00:43:26.560a ton of reconciliation and conflict management. You have not just two individuals or two households,
00:43:33.060You have two entire sects of a massive church in Jerusalem.
00:43:37.580This is a, we know it's a large church because 3,000 are added to the faith at Pentecost
00:50:18.280So, how does this all fit into unity? And I think that people, you know, you go read the Ephesians text that you mentioned before, Ephesians 4, you're going to find everybody operating according to their station makes it so that people are able to divide the labor efficiently and encourage people to be trained.
00:50:38.280So if immature believers are being trained by young men in the faith, by deacons and stuff in the faith, then that's able to be done.
00:50:46.780And the more complex problems are able to be dealt with by the fathers in the faith.
00:50:50.640And so you're able to have well-reasoned, well-done stuff as opposed to overloaded officers, overloaded elders.
00:50:58.860They're able to really do a great job of teaching through the points of disagreement that become more complex.
00:51:05.280and they can start to give you your handouts and organized information and all that kind of stuff.
00:51:10.460And so I think one of the examples that this has happened in the church just in our own time,
00:51:15.440Pastor Philip Kaiser has like amazing handouts for like every sermon he gives,
00:51:19.480just these great like handouts of the organization of the stuff.
00:51:23.020And I think that must testify to the fact that at their church,
00:51:25.940they're able to really well organize that to give this guy the time
00:51:29.700to actually put together these amazing documents for these sermons.
00:51:33.580And so that kind of stuff where the teaching is able to be done well, have it be, here's handouts, here's information, here's stuff you get to look at as a congregation, that's going to encourage unity in the faith.
00:51:44.460And so there's this proper division of labor.
00:51:48.320And so then the fathers being those who are really, really deeply knowledgeable, being those who are able to teach the more advanced elements, and they're able to carefully guard the confessional standard.
00:52:00.940And so they're going to be able to pick.
00:52:03.220And we talked before about the idea of when you pick conflicts,
00:52:06.460you want to pick the more basic ones as opposed to the less basic ones.
00:52:09.640And so the Westminster Confession, the London Baptist Confession,
00:52:12.460you look at the order of the chapters.
00:54:23.140And in order to have the theological triage,
00:54:25.380you need systematic theology. Biblical theology is indispensable, but, but I think for purposes
00:54:30.960of triage, systematic theology is key. And, you know, people are bothered by that. They don't
00:54:36.420like labels. They don't like systems, you know, and, and all those kinds of things. And, um,
00:54:42.140and you'll put, you know, pretty little cliches in order to defend your position for why you don't
00:54:46.360like, you know, systems or labels. Um, but, but really it's a rejection of authority. It's a,
00:54:51.700it's a reject it's wanting to be your own pope and make all of your own decisions and atomistic
00:54:57.500individualistic um it's arrogance it's rooted in arrogance systematic theology just for the
00:55:02.560listener um is not imposing uh man's systems on the god-breathed text instead it's going to the
00:55:09.080text uh reading it carefully and then discerning out of the text not reading systems into the text
00:55:15.500eisegesis imposing our systems but it's looking at the text and saying what do we know about the
00:55:20.560character and nature of God? Well, we know that he's a God of order. He's not a God of chaos.
00:55:25.040He's not a God of disorder. So I'm not imposing a system on the text. I am counting on the God
00:55:31.080of order that he has placed a system in the text and I want to find it. So I'm not bringing a
00:55:36.160system to the text. I'm drawing out of the text a system. And then when we have systematic theology,
00:55:40.660it is constructed in not biblical order of Genesis to Revelation, but in logical order.
00:55:47.740um and and in that logical order there's an order of priority and so that sets the triage
00:55:53.780of um must believe should believe may believe and then we're able to start there and that helps us
00:56:00.880i think from some of the the further fraction fracturing and um and dividing uh to be able to
00:56:07.480you know because part of the reason that we're dividing on some things is because you know part
00:56:12.140of it is is being too petty and too particular but part of it also is putting the cart before
00:56:16.940the horse. Some of these divisions were dividing now on social justice or the solution for social
00:56:24.780justice with so-and-so, which ironically, we should have been divided with so-and-so from
00:56:29.540the very beginning. I think, for instance, people in the last couple of years have felt shocked
00:56:36.380that James Lindsay is not on our team. And I'm like, guys, he's an atheist. He's not even in
00:56:46.260the realm of, like, we're shocked. Oh, we're shocked. So James Lindsay, turns out he wants
00:56:52.740to guard all the benefits of a Christian nation that afford him the ability to just to go through0.95
00:57:02.260life, to have, you know, to not be, you know, just it preserves his liberty and all these kinds of0.94
00:57:08.540like, all that comes from the Christian faith. There is no liberty apart from the Christian0.94
00:57:12.740worldview. So it turns out he wanted to defend, you know, seemingly defend some basic, you know,0.57
00:57:20.180but he was never defending the Christian faith. He was defending what the Christian faith produced0.57
00:57:24.520for him, its blessings. But then when it comes to actually the solution, he doesn't want a
00:57:32.280Christian nation. He just wants, you know, classical liberalism as a later fruit of the
00:57:39.200Christian worldview. But that's not my goal. My goal is not to bring us back to the good old
00:57:46.400days of the 1980s. My goal is, no, I want a distinctly Christian nation. And of course,
00:57:53.340I'm not going to be able to count on someone like James Lindsay to be a co-belligerent towards that
00:57:58.620aim. And so my point is, some of the fracturing that we're having now, not all of it, but some
00:58:04.440of the fracturing we're having now is we're actually, we're just starting to realize that
00:58:10.100we're divided on chapter, for instance, to put it into like confessional terms, we're divided on
00:58:14.860chapter 27. Well, you know, and it's like, oh, I'm losing allies. I'm losing friends. Yeah. But
00:58:20.320honestly, you're divided on chapter 27. But if you'd been a little bit more discerning,
00:58:26.180you would have realized that you were already divided on chapter two and three and four. And
00:58:30.020of course, uh, of course this was not going to happen. So I think assuming the center,
00:58:34.660that's what, you know, I think there's a geographic application of this. I think there's
00:58:38.640an ideological, uh, and methodological application of this, certainly a theological application of
00:58:44.420this. But right now, in terms of what time is it, the sons of Issachar, what do we do today?
00:58:48.820They knew the times and they knew what Israel should do. So they weren't just commentators.
00:58:53.160Oh, I know the times. I know how bad that is. No, no, they also had a plan. They knew what
00:58:57.420Israel should do, and I think right now what Israel, the church of Jesus Christ, needs to do
00:59:02.900given the times is we need to realize that our high watermark, like you've so wonderfully said,
00:59:08.960is behind us, unfortunately. We've actually regressed because of sin, because of foolishness,
00:59:14.100because of compromise, so we need to go back, and also we need to assume the center. It is not a
00:59:20.380time for spreading out. That is the ultimate goal, to be fruitful and spread out over the whole
00:59:26.380earth and subdue it through the great commission and the cultural mandate uh but right now um i0.92
00:59:31.680think we need to fall back uh we've spread too thin we need to fall back from behind enemy lines
00:59:36.640we need to consolidate i think in the name of the game right now is consolidation geographically
00:59:41.060theologically and then going finding what's uh what's the lowest you know the the uh um well
00:59:47.540not the low but what's actually the highest common denominator where we can agree um and and how
00:59:53.320close is that towards the highest watermark we have thus far in 2 000 years of church history
00:59:58.500okay so here's where we can agree now here's the westminster confession of faith okay uh let's
01:00:04.020consolidate here where we can agree let's spend the next 50 years seeing if we can get back
01:00:08.320to to the high watermark that we had 500 years ago and now let's uh let's let's push forward
01:00:15.460you know and now we can talk about maybe spreading out again um those seem so clear to me like just
01:00:21.620practical, basic strategy and tactics. But man, you'd be surprised. That's basically some of
01:00:29.680the content from my talk that I gave at the New Christendom Conference. And I was encouraged. A
01:00:34.960lot of people loved it, but it was a love-hate kind of lecture that I gave. The people who loved
01:00:40.440it really loved it. And then there were a few people that really, really, I mean, they're like,
01:00:45.600this was my least favorite talk because I told, because I, I just, I just kind of straight up
01:00:52.320told people what to do. Like, we don't have time. Stop being cute. This is what you need to do.
01:00:57.660And that, you know, and I think that's kind of what we need right now. We need a few people to
01:01:00.880say like, okay, that's enough. That's silly. It's always been silly. Stop it. And this is what we0.97
01:01:05.800need to do. And I think the need, you know, essentially the things you pointed out to people
01:01:11.000is they need to move to a place where there's already a solid church and really a solid
01:01:15.540Christian borough where there's economic activity, church activity, there's hospitality, there's
01:01:21.500people that are going to be helping to work together that are desirous of accomplishing
01:01:25.740the same goals. And you need a good amount of unity there. That's hard to find in a lot of
01:01:29.380places. So being willing to move there. And if you can't move for some reason, like you've got
01:01:34.020duties, you've got stuff that ties you there, whatever, maybe you've already got some of the
01:01:38.200beginnings of it. Okay, well, focus the energy on making that work. If you can't make it work there,
01:01:44.180then you've got to leave right so there's either there's either already a solid church there where
01:01:49.260this is happening or a solid church and it requires a little bit of pushing and effort to
01:01:53.460get to building that borough or you have the capacity to do it and a duty to stay or you need
01:01:59.740to leave right and that's it and and so that's how simple that is and i think most people we
01:02:05.120over evaluate what we're able to do on our own in time frames and so we need to realize the need to
01:02:11.080divide labor, to accumulate capital, to make it so that we can build off of what other people
01:02:16.180have already started. And so I think a lot of people miss out on that. And so places where
01:02:20.720that's happening, where there's education, Christianity in the church, households that
01:02:25.660are in good order, money being made with businesses, all that stuff together, that's
01:02:29.560sort of the stuff that's necessary for a Christian borough or a, I've been calling it the Geneva1.00
01:02:35.500strategy before I heard the idea of that, just the idea that you flee to a place where you can0.97
01:02:40.300consolidate, get control, and then you can project power out. And so you're going to look at what
01:02:44.700happened in Geneva. But I think there's two things there that have to also be focused on,
01:02:50.260which is church unity through confessional covenanting, and then the civil order. And so
01:02:56.460you talked about, I think you might disagree here, and I'd be curious about whether it would
01:03:00.960be helpful for people to think about how the order around this is, in the civil order, I would say
01:03:06.280we can have a highest common denominator without regard to really the history.
01:03:11.780And we just kind of go, can we agree on a basic political platform of seeing Christ acknowledged
01:03:17.120as the king of kings, his word acknowledged as the authoritative thing, biblical Christian
01:03:22.040liberty defended as defined by the Bible, and biblical justice administered as defined by
01:03:26.600the Bible as to be sort of four big political goals. And then how do you make that happen?
01:03:32.360Well, I think there's an ordinance of civil covenanting that we have to be willing to swear to pursue those things together, and we have to be willing to commit to certain actions around that.
01:03:43.940That's going to be things like having a shared arbitration system.
01:03:47.360It's going to be swearing to defend each other if they start to come after each other.
01:03:52.280You know, they come after you as a Baptist or me as a Presbyterian, the idea that we'd be willing to come and defend each other or provide sanction for each other.
01:03:58.740this idea that we would swear to argue with each other about the disagreements in order to seek to
01:04:04.160come to greater unity until we die. And that's where I think that context happens of having that
01:04:12.060debate to try to get back to a high watermark. It's inside of a civil covenant where we're
01:04:17.100already swearing to accomplish certain things together. And then our goal is to see ecclesiastical
01:04:23.720unity and greater unity inside of that. So I think we have the freedom because of our context
01:04:28.700to have a more loose civil covenant where we're swearing certain things to each other
01:04:33.660than we might have in an ecclesiastical context. Because I think it'd be sin for us to fall away
01:04:40.120from the, in the church, kind of the high water market's been attained. I think it's our job
01:04:45.060to rally around that. And so that other thing that's necessary inside of a civil covenant is
01:04:51.160we need to start having commitments to meet in some areas to make sure that we are physically
01:04:57.960fit and prepared to competently make sure that we do our duties as men and to have some sort of way
01:05:06.440where that's financed. And so those are the components of the civil covenant that I think
01:05:12.240are necessary. And those are the places that make us that we're meeting physically. One of the
01:05:16.700things you said in your speech that you gave at the conference recently was this idea that when
01:05:21.900you're seeing each other in person and interacting in person, how it helps. Now that happens at the
01:05:27.140local church, but I think also this idea of some sort of regular training together in the context
01:05:32.560of a civil covenant is another place where that occurs, where you have that camaraderie in the
01:05:37.480trenches and everything. And as you're doing business with each other and doing hospitality
01:05:41.020from house to house, those are the things that would encourage that growth in unity in the
01:05:45.620discussions and would also create social pressure on elders between those churches that are connected
01:05:50.360in that way to keep talking with each other and to try to work through those differences
01:05:53.740and have public discussion where they're accountable for the words that they say to each
01:05:58.240other. Right. That's good. Yeah, no, I agree with all of that. I think you and I, the only
01:06:03.160disagreement we would probably have would be minor, but it matters, but it wouldn't be a
01:06:09.560grandiose, you know, um, you know, massive disagreement, but, um, would just be on the
01:06:14.800civil covenanting, um, just, you know, how theologically, uh, what, what is that, you
01:06:21.160know, that highest common denominator, you know, that, uh, that we would accept for that,
01:06:25.140but everything, all the other elements of, you know, arbitrating our own, uh, disagreements
01:06:29.980per first Corinthians chapter six, that's just a clear biblical principle that we're
01:06:34.240not, you know, we're not going to the pagan courts, um, unless, unless we absolutely have
01:06:38.780to, that we're first trying to arbitrate disputes among Christians with our own courts, that there
01:06:44.980would be some kind of shared resources, financial resources, in order to accomplish our goals.0.94
01:06:51.720All those kinds of things completely agree with that. The local church ecclesiastical
01:06:55.580covenanting, I think there must be a higher watermark for that theological standard within
01:07:05.600the ecclesiastical covenanting realm. And I think that the highest watermark that we currently have
01:07:11.840within 2,000 years of church history is from the Reformation. And so going back and saying,
01:07:16.460this is what we need at the church level. And then at the civil level, at this point,
01:07:21.620and I'm open to being persuaded, but at this point, I'm convinced that at the civil level,
01:07:26.720that it needs to be a pan-Protestant project. So it must be distinctly Christian. I would advocate
01:07:32.780for a prelude or a preamble adopted to the Constitution that is the Apostles' Creed,
01:07:40.140that distinctly names the Lord Jesus Christ and the triune God as the sole object of our worship,
01:07:46.280that we are a Christian nation. And then from that, I think there can be no debate
01:07:53.460in terms of legislation that the state is obligated under God, that the state won't be
01:08:01.000blessed and a nation won't be blessed any other way, that the state is mandated by God to reward
01:08:07.560the righteous, punish the evildoer, and that that necessarily includes both tables of the law,
01:08:12.740that you cannot just have a state that legislates horizontal laws in terms of the second table of
01:08:19.240the law, love for neighbor, commandments five through 10. But that's to basically to try to
01:08:25.640hang the, the laws, the second table of the law in regards to love for neighbor in midair. And so
01:08:31.520it has to necessarily include the first table of the law. So I would say, you know, Apostles
01:08:36.160Creed and 10 commandments, you know, and I would add to that the Apostles Creed, I would add the
01:08:42.240solas and saying, and this is the gospel. So that we need the solas added to that. And that's what
01:08:50.200gets you, uh, not just, um, uh, a pan Christian, but a pan Protestant, uh, project that's distinctly
01:08:57.240Protestant that says to the Catholic, Hey, you're welcome to be a part of this, but this is
01:09:00.960Protestant. Um, and, uh, and we're not going to abandon, uh, the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so,
01:09:06.680uh, this is, this is what we're doing. You're welcome to participate. Um, but we're going
01:09:11.020this direction and you don't get to, uh, you can be in the car, but you don't get to drive.1.00
01:09:15.240Uh, the Protestants are driving. And I think the only area, you know, correct me if I'm wrong,1.00
01:09:19.980where we disagree is I think everything I said, I think you're on board for. So ecclesiastical
01:09:25.260covenant in confession, give us the Westminster, give us the 1689 over here, creed. And then we'd
01:09:31.240add the solas. We're both two tables of the law guys in terms of the state and legislation,
01:09:36.700blasphemy laws, blue law, Sabbath laws, those kinds of things. And then, you know, the last
01:09:42.420thing is I think you would say, yep, give me the solas and give me tulip. And I think that's the,
01:09:47.280Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the only place where I say, ah, you know, maybe 500 years from now we'll get Tulip in there.
01:09:54.820I don't know if we're ready for it yet.
01:09:56.920Yeah, and I would say the reason I think that is because I think Tulip is sort of the guardrails for the solas, right?
01:10:03.900If you abandon total depravity and you abandon the idea of limited atonement, you're abandoning total depravity that it's by grace alone.
01:10:15.200When you abandon limited atonement, you're abandoning that it's by Christ alone.
01:10:18.260So these are almost definitional guardrails, I would say, for that.
01:10:22.520And so I think that's what the purpose was.0.77
01:10:24.180And I think, you know, when you look at the Synod of Dort being an international Protestant synod,
01:10:29.820that capturing that and trying to guard the gospel, a reformed view of the gospel,
01:10:33.940I think the historical context, they're saying, if you abandon this stuff,
01:10:37.540you're really abandoning the reformed view of the gospel.
01:10:39.580And so I think it's necessary if we're going to be able to guard it as being a Christian movement as opposed to rejecting that.
01:10:48.720So that's obviously a controversial statement.
01:10:52.920But, you know, if Christ, on a basic level, limited atonement is where the rubber hits the road here.
01:10:58.320Everybody freaks out at limited atonement.
01:11:00.620So just John Owen's solution here is this.
01:11:02.960Okay, let's think about this logically for a second.
01:11:04.700hey, if Christ died for some of the sins of some people, nobody's saved. If he died for some of
01:11:10.700the sins of all people, still nobody's saved. If he died for all of the sins of all people,
01:11:17.020everybody's saved. And if he died for all of the sins of some people, then some people are saved.
01:11:20.900The only one of those is biblical. It's the last one. It's limited atonement. He paid for all the
01:11:25.040sins of some people. And if he paid for all the sins of all people, then everybody's saved.
01:11:29.780That's universalism. That's unavoidable. And so you want to say, oh, well, faith is the connector
01:11:33.680there. It's like, okay, is faith, is unbelief a sin that Christ paid for or not? Right. That's
01:11:39.220what I was going to say. Yeah. So it's like, oh, he paid for all of your sins, but you still have
01:11:43.180to accept his payment. Well, is the rejection of his payment a sin? Yes. Did he pay for that sin?
01:11:48.700Yes. So, yeah. So I'm with you in terms of, I think it's thoroughly biblical, John chapter 10,
01:11:54.200the shepherd, he doesn't lay down his life for goats. He doesn't lay it down for wolves,
01:11:58.780you know, he, but he lays down his life for the sheep. So there's a particular redemption,
01:12:03.360definitive redemption. So I think it's firmly biblical, but it's also thoroughly logical
01:12:08.520because it really does call into question the justice of God. If Jesus died for people who
01:12:13.540ultimately go to hell, what is hell? But the wages of sin, it's the wages of sin, the payment
01:12:19.340for sinning against a thrice holy God. And if people are paying that price, that penalty
01:12:25.620themselves, and Jesus died for them, and Jesus' death on the cross is penal substitutionary
01:12:32.200atonement, which is the heart of the gospel, it's the penalty for sin, then you're actually
01:12:38.120accusing, it's levying an accusation against God himself in regards to his own essence and
01:12:43.960character that God is unjust. God is demanding double payment. He's demanding two punishments
01:12:50.500for one crime. This person sinned against him, and that person has to pay it off for eternity.
01:12:57.160And also, his son Jesus, God chose to subject his own son, his beloved son, to make a second
01:13:05.580payment for something that is already being paid for eternally by that person in hell. And so
01:13:11.660logically, biblically, in terms of theology proper and doctrine of God, his essence, his character,
01:13:18.820his nature, justice being called it. So I'm fully on board with that. And I think I could even get
01:13:24.940on board in terms of, I think you're right in terms of the five points of Calvinism, the doctrines of
01:13:29.880grace, not being even a separate category in so much as they are just a further, they're the
01:13:35.520footnotes and the further fleshing out of the five solos. So I like that as well. I think that's,
01:13:40.640I think that's true, which is why I would absolutely demand the tulip for ecclesiastical
01:13:47.420covenanting, but I just still not quite there for civil covenanting. So, so let's talk about
01:13:53.360the pragmatics of this for just a minute, right? So you're advocating the people gather around a
01:13:58.440point. I think that's brilliant. I think it's absolutely necessary. I think that's, that's,
01:14:01.520that's a practical point that people need to hear. And I think that, that, um, you pushing on that
01:14:06.480and helping people to feel freed from the guilt mongering that's been done that you need to like,
01:14:12.060you know, you need to be a missionary in blue land and you also need to send your kids to0.96
01:14:16.600public schools so they can become communist and gay right like so this this whole this whole0.99
01:14:21.460problem you're trying to free people from it and saying no no no come into a christian enclave0.94
01:14:26.600right right that's that's absolutely the case i want to say those enclaves are what need to
01:14:31.860organize and need to connect yes what's going to happen what's going to happen is is those things
01:14:37.940we need to be very careful about that and and the reality is we're going to make cities on the hill
01:14:43.480And every place else is going to be hell on earth. And so if we have light and we're careful there to guard it, I think that the idea of connecting the international reform, the reformed throughout the states, we're going to end up having that network.
01:15:03.520And if we carefully guard that, the reality is there's about 30 million evangelicals in the country, maybe 10 million of those are Calvinistic or whatever.
01:15:14.240And so if that's the case, a few million gathering together and becoming more unified is going to be far more powerful than a dissipation of our doctrine and trying to have a larger coalition.
01:15:26.840What's going to happen is there are two things that the Lord promises.
01:15:31.760I still see that as an ecclesiastical, so not a local church covenanting, but still this broader ecclesiastical, because what you're describing is still between churches, which to me is different than the civil covenanting.
01:15:44.840So being Presbyterian, I believe in covenanting between multiple local churches.
01:15:49.580And I think historically, a lot of Baptists and Congregationalists would have held the idea of a covenant between them, but the covenant wouldn't have been enforced by a court.
01:15:56.940You'd have had an association where you meet to discuss things, but it doesn't have the authority to do anything to remove people.
01:16:02.320They would have seen the value, but you're right.
01:16:03.800It would have been volitional, and it would have not been formally binding.
01:16:07.520So I'm saying there should be the church court as well that's shared, but there should also be an ecclesiastic or a civil covenant.
01:16:14.540So there should be an ecclesiastical covenant and a civil covenant.
01:16:17.260And I want to see the churches covenanting with each other, but I also want to see their boroughs, the towns, the zones, these little – we have a civil sphere.
01:16:26.540So, for example, you know, in Phoenix, there's apologia, which, you know, I have a lot of confessional disagreements with them.
01:16:34.540They hold the, not quite the London Baptist, but I think, for example, I think we disagree on like Sabbath and some other stuff too.
01:16:40.160And so I'm happy to argue with them about that stuff and say, you know, I think you're wrong about that.
01:17:05.920So that'd be the civil element, and I'd be trying to encourage the churches.
01:17:08.300Because when you were describing boroughs, that's what threw me off.
01:17:10.680When you said boroughs, I instinctively thought churches.
01:17:14.100And in that, because I would put it in the category of not the state but households, the family, I was thinking about Christian classical schools.
01:17:21.240So I was thinking churches and schools, but you were thinking more like, you know, not Christ Church, but Moscow, right?
01:17:32.860And so included in that is not just the church and the school, but businesses, economy, not just household things, but even, you know, civil leaders in that realm.
01:17:42.740But one thing I definitely agree with is, and you may be right, but one thing I definitely agree with is at the ecclesiastical level, and this is even coming from a Baptist, so you know it's something, but even at the ecclesiastical level of churches, going back to just that and leaving towns on the side for a moment, one of my concerns is that people will assume the center.
01:18:05.720they will congregate, they will fall back from behind enemy lines, but they'll have 17 different
01:18:11.360boroughs to choose from, which is good. I don't think we just need, the whole world can't move
01:18:15.140to Moscow. So we need more than one borough. Right now, I think we need to be honest with
01:18:19.240ourselves. We don't have 10,000 boroughs. A lot of guys might think, oh, I have a borough. You
01:18:23.860probably don't. So I don't think we have a thousand boroughs, but we better have more than
01:18:28.980one borough. So let's say it's a hundred boroughs spread out around the States. We need to
01:18:33.740consolidate, fall back from behind enemy lines and assume the center and go to these boroughs.
01:18:38.680But then those boroughs, this is one of my biggest concerns, is the leaders, ecclesiastical
01:18:44.440leaders of these boroughs, they better be getting in some serious face time with each other. Because
01:18:50.140it's not helpful if we go to the Christian boroughs, but then our hundred Christian boroughs0.92
01:18:55.000all disagree with each other. Yeah. And that's been really, one of the things I've found really
01:18:59.860hard and that I have found refreshing specifically about you, but also David Shannon, Chocolate
01:19:06.920Knox, I've seen the two of you really be connectors who are trying to help other people.
01:19:14.400And I've seen you be open-handed with things like honor, where there's this willingness
01:19:20.080to spend time to talk to people and to argue through things and to try to be charitable
01:19:24.180and interpretation um the willingness to to sit down to talk uh to communicate you know through
01:19:30.160the the electronic means we've got and to get time but also this idea of of trying to spend time in
01:19:36.180person and to argue about stuff talk through things try to flesh things out in detail uh
01:19:41.060spend the time that you have to spend on it and then to connect other people and try to encourage
01:19:45.800that um and so um i think that um you know god willing we don't you know let's say we don't lose
01:19:51.740and end up in the concentration camps, but instead we win.
01:19:54.860The victors that write the history, hopefully we'll get to the point
01:19:58.480of the two of you guys as significant connectors in the cause.
01:20:02.960So I think that that's a key part of it, and that's a priestly gifting.
01:20:06.680You think about leaders, what kind of gifting they've got.
01:20:09.480If they've got prophetic gifting, they're great teachers.
01:30:20.540Debating about baptism, debating about church government
01:30:22.900are very important for us to eliminate the practical dividers
01:30:26.440that prevent us from having a shared church.
01:30:28.560Then, in addition to that, the most practical thing for you to do is for you to make sure your home is in good order, where you're leading well, you're leading your family in family worship, making sure they're having stable church attendance, keeping the Sabbath, building up an estate, making sure you and your wife are a good team, that you have resources, and making it so that you've got stuff that you can pour into this.
01:30:50.300Because if you don't have resources, you can't do any of this work.
01:30:52.320And if you're a pastor and you're not bivocational, you're probably in a church that's larger in a lot of cases than it should be and relying upon that to feed the growth.
01:31:03.780The reality is that solid men can run their house, run their estate, and be public officers.
01:31:12.440And so the ability to do all of that stuff and build out a robust estate so you can leave an inheritance to your children and your children's children, that's necessary to make it so you've got the resources to do what you need.
01:31:21.880George Washington was able to march a thousand men at his own expense to the relief of Boston
01:31:26.100when it was under siege by the British. One of my goals is to make sure I could march a thousand
01:31:30.440men to Dallas to come to your guys' relief if there were need. And so that idea of trying to
01:31:36.420pull together that sort of utility, the capacity to actually do stuff, having resources to make
01:31:41.600things happen. And so if you want to do that, you have to govern yourself well. The only way to not
01:31:46.280be enslaved to sin is to have a deep knowledge of the truth. It makes it so that you're a father
01:31:50.020in the faith. If you have a knowledge of God that's deep, if you have a knowledge of God that's
01:31:53.960deep, then you govern yourself because it's the knowledge of the truth that sets men free from
01:31:58.340slavery to sin. And so I want to encourage men to seek the knowledge of God deeply and to make
01:32:03.260sure they're exercising discipline in all the areas of life, seeing their piety not just be
01:32:08.180an internal thing that's about a relationship between them and God, but it pushes out to the
01:32:12.220edges, their duty over their sphere. So I think that's the capacity to see unity occur. It is to
01:32:17.920know God deeply yourself, govern your home well and have resources, encourage your church to grow
01:32:23.220in depth and to encourage unity between other churches by discussing the differences and
01:32:28.500seeking to covenant together, and by seeing that occur in the civil sphere, having leaders and
01:32:33.600having Christian men throughout the country who are committed to seeing the acknowledgement of
01:32:39.140the reign of Christ over the state, having them covenant together and having these necessary
01:32:43.820components work in harmony. Amen. Well said. Well, thank you, Mr. Reese, for coming on the show.
01:32:49.980And we will talk more in the near future, Lord willing. And thank you to the listener for tuning
01:32:54.600in. We hope that this has been helpful for you. We want both. We want our cake and eat it too,
01:33:00.840because we think that's what the Lord wants. We want incredible unity and covenant with one
01:33:07.060another. And we also don't want to lower the bar. We want a theological maximalism and unity. I
01:33:13.680think that's what ephesians 4 is ephesians 4 is not just talking about kumbaya love while everybody
01:33:19.180has a different position a different conviction um and i don't think ephesians 4 is saying yep
01:33:24.340we'll attain the full stature of the maturity of christ um and by the time we get there there'll
01:33:29.080only be three of us i just i reject both of the that's just that's not what the scripture teaches
01:33:33.960the scripture is saying um high bar and uh and that we're all going to make it we're going to
01:33:40.100make it. So no man left behind and high bar. And I think that's a lot of what I've, as I've gotten
01:33:47.880to know you, I think that's a lot of what you have been giving yourself to outside of the local level
01:33:53.320as you try to be a voice to the church at large is don't lower the bar, but also let's team up.
01:34:00.740Let's agree. So God bless you for that ministry. And I hope it's helpful for the listener.
01:34:04.500And we'll see you again soon. Thanks for tuning in.