The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - The Theistic Evolution Debate ｜ @redeemedzoomer6053

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00:00:27 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel

00:00:31 Webbin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I'm welcoming back to the show for a

00:00:36 second time, the Redeemed Zoomer. Now, in this episode, all we're pretty much going to do is

00:00:41 disagree. Richard is Redeemed Zoomer's first name. He holds to theistic evolution. He believes that

00:00:47 God created the world by utilizing death, that death actually entered into the created cosmos

00:00:52 long before Adam sinned. I would strongly and vehemently disagree, and you'll see the two of

00:00:59 us pushing back on precisely that topic. Is evolution true? Is it compatible with the Bible,

00:01:04 with Christian theology, or is evolution a lie from the pit of hell? That would be my view, 0.99

00:01:10 the latter, and that's not the view of the redeemed Zoomer. So we will argue and hash it

00:01:16 out in this episode of Theology Applied. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:01:22 This is Theology Applied.

00:01:29 Yeah, do you have any questions about what I believe theologically?

00:01:32 Because like, I don't...

00:01:34 Well, it sounds like, I mean, you're Presbyterian, so I assume you adhere to Presbyterian polity.

00:01:39 You're Reformed in your soteriology.

00:01:41 I assume you have Calvin's view of the sacraments of, you know, spiritual presence.

00:01:48 Yeah, I mean, anything you want to share, go for it.

00:01:51 yeah so the um the the bad thing that i believe is i believe in evolution as well um so that's

00:01:59 one of the things okay all right well it's always nice to i wish you led with hey i'm a heretic but

00:02:04 go ahead yeah i'm gonna be doing a debate sometime this winter with keith foskey on evolution i

00:02:11 already did a debate oh you are okay cool yeah i already did a debate with him on infant baptism

00:02:16 um so like there still is a bit of pc usa in me um i believe in evolution also something i believe

00:02:25 in that i think doesn't get talked about enough i believe strongly in kingdom theology that there's

00:02:30 continuity between this age and the age to come and all good things of this world will be restored

00:02:35 i i hold to that as well you're probably aware i utterly despise the view that the new heavens

00:02:42 and the new earth is going to be, this world's going to get utterly nuked and the new heavens

00:02:46 and the new earth is going to be something completely different. In reality, it's going

00:02:49 to be different, but the same. It's like, yes, there will be an end to this physical creation

00:02:54 in some sense, but the next one is going to be an updated version of this one. So it's not wrong

00:03:01 when the Bible says it'll be destroyed by fire, but it's a purifying fire. I don't think God is

00:03:05 going to destroy anything he has made. With that said, I'm not a universalist. I don't believe in

00:03:12 universal salvation but i believe in the salvation of the universe yep yeah so i'm with you 100 on

00:03:17 that um i yeah i don't believe i'm uh that the the earthly cosmos is going to be annihilated or

00:03:25 disintegrated um i same with you uh fire i think purifies uh you know that there was a purification

00:03:31 first by water then by fire um but every yeah i think every good work um every good endeavor that

00:03:37 it has, there's an eternal value there. I think that we're going to the new heavens on the new

00:03:44 earth. It's not another earth, but this earth made new and that we will see the Alps. It'll be a

00:03:50 glorified Alps. It's not going to be a different world or a different mountain range, but a glorified

00:03:55 Alps, glorified rivers, glorified, and we're going to be able to look around and say, I know this

00:03:59 place is similar to like Narnia and C.S. Lewis, you know, except I'm, you know, I don't like that

00:04:03 It's all in Plato is one of the lines that, you know, in the last battle, when they enter into the, you know, the new Aslan's country, the new Narnia, they're like, I recognize this, but this is Narnia, you know, and they're like, it's all in Plato.

00:04:14 And so, but then, you know, they're using that to talk about forms and I would be more on the, you know, well, Aristotle kind of side of thing.

00:04:22 I don't think that, you know, that the truest, you know, that earth is only real because it exists somewhere else, you know, and this is just, you know, a form of it.

00:04:30 But anyways, but that, but that basic concept. Yeah. I think that the new heavens and new earth

00:04:33 will be here. It'll be this earth made new. And, um, and what we do actually matters. It's going

00:04:38 to be redeemed. I don't think that, you know, all creation groans with eager expectations for the

00:04:42 sons of God to be revealed. Van Druden and some of the Westminster Escondido guys, they say that,

00:04:46 you know, the creation is basically the creation is just groaning for a mercy killing. It wants

00:04:51 God to take it out behind the shed and put it down. And, uh, and I don't think, I don't think

00:04:55 that's it. I think creation is groaning because it's eager to be restored alongside the sons of

00:05:01 God. But real quick, let's go back to evolution. So I'm sure you're familiar with this, but I do

00:05:07 think evolution is a massive, massive problem. So I don't want to be too comical about it because I

00:05:12 think it matters. But theologically, this is what I'll say, and I'm just curious to hear your take

00:05:18 because I know that this won't be novel for you. I'm sure you've heard it before.

00:05:22 Um, some of my problems with evolution, some of my biggest problems is just what, um, what

00:05:27 it does theologically to the gospel.

00:05:29 The idea that, um, um, uh, if, if death is God's instrument, uh, in creating the world,

00:05:35 um, then, you know, death was, uh, you know, kind of that, um, death was alive and well,

00:05:40 uh, long before sin entered the world.

00:05:42 Uh, so for me, um, you know, uh, thinking of Romans five, you know, through one man's

00:05:47 sin, Adam, the first Adam, uh, death into the world through sin.

00:05:51 And by the final Adam, the second Adam, Christ, by his obedience, you know, then we have this reversing, you know, he comes to make his blessings flow as far as the curse is found.

00:06:02 And so for me, that's one of the biggest problems is that what you have with evolution is you have Adam and Eve standing on top of a mountain of, you know, billions, if not trillions of skulls and not single-celled organisms.

00:06:15 I'm fine with mitigated entropy, just for the record.

00:06:18 I think leaves died in the garden before they sent, right?

00:06:20 I think that, you know, there was bacteria and amoeba and things like, so mitigated entropy

00:06:24 is fine. I think that's God's design, even in a prelapsarian world, but we're not talking about

00:06:29 that. We're not talking about single celled organisms or leaves dying. We're talking about

00:06:33 humanoid, you know, all the way up to Homo erectus and then Homo sapiens, you know, just, 0.91

00:06:37 just whole swaths of them dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. And then Adam and Eve, you know,

00:06:42 are standing on top of a mountain of skulls and God finally breathes his spirit into them and

00:06:47 gives them a soul, you know, and now we have, you know, humanity and then Adam sins. And well,

00:06:53 the consequence for sin is death. And which I feel like Adam would probably have a difficult

00:06:58 time comprehending because he'd be like, you mean death? You mean that this mountain that I'm

00:07:01 standing on with all these skulls, that thing that was already alive and well for millions of years

00:07:07 before I was ever even born, much less sinned. So what's so bad about that? So that would be one of

00:07:12 my major objections to evolution theologically i think it messes with the gospel never heard that

00:07:18 one before um so what's the what was the tree of life for what was the tree of life for so i i hold

00:07:25 to um that there was actually it was a probationary period um so i i don't hold that adam and eve were

00:07:30 eating of the tree of life on a daily basis but rather it would have been extended to them

00:07:34 after the completion of a probationary period of resisting uh i i would agree with that but what

00:07:40 did it do? Like what, what would have happened if they had eaten it? It would have made them

00:07:44 immutable. So all they had to do to live forever. So I'm going to just juxtapose forever life and

00:07:49 eternal life here. So to live forever, they actually didn't need to eat of the tree of life.

00:07:53 They just needed to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, and they would

00:07:57 have lived forever. So the tree of life did not give Adam, it would not have given Adam forever

00:08:03 life. Instead, what it would have done is it would have given him eternal life. And I'm using that

00:08:08 the way i'm using eternal and forever and you know distinguishing the two is immutability that

00:08:13 it would have brought him to a state of immutability where he would be unable to fall

00:08:16 yeah that's an interesting way of putting it i believe there was death before the fall i think

00:08:22 that there's a few reasons i know there's the objection sin entered through adam so i think

00:08:26 the tree of life it the it says that if adam had eaten from it he would not die i think the

00:08:32 implication there is that adam was mortal and the way to avoid dying was he could have eaten from

00:08:37 the tree of life he was offered immortality and he rejected it in favor of sin i think that's kind

00:08:43 of the big deal about the fall and also darkness was present in the creation from the very beginning

00:08:50 it says that the light was good and separate was separated from the darkness so eden was good it

00:08:56 was not perfect uh god has always been able to bring good out of evil now there is the problem

00:09:00 if sin entered through adam um then how was there sin before that well we know there was already evil

00:09:06 because Satan was already there.

00:09:08 The fall of Satan was before the fall of Adam.

00:09:11 So yes, God allowed sin to enter because of Adam.

00:09:17 The very next verse after that verse in Romans

00:09:19 where it says sin entered through Adam,

00:09:21 it also says grace entered through Christ.

00:09:23 But that grace applied chronologically

00:09:26 to people way before Christ. 0.65

00:09:28 Likewise, I think the sin brought through Adam

00:09:30 can apply chronologically to people way before Adam.

00:09:34 So I don't think the fall of Adam chronologically

00:09:36 was the entrance of sin and evil into the world.

00:09:39 I think the devil sowed bad seed into the world from the very beginning.

00:09:42 There was darkness from the very beginning, which, you know, God is outside of time.

00:09:46 You could still say that's allowed because of Adam's sin.

00:09:49 The fall was Adam's siding with the devil rather than siding with God,

00:09:54 turning down eternal life and siding with the devil instead.

00:09:58 So I don't think that contradicts any classical soteriology at all.

00:10:02 So you think that, let me think.

00:10:07 The difference between the devil's sin and Adam's, at least one difference, several, but

00:10:11 one difference would be federal headship. So Satan, Lucifer did not have federal headship

00:10:18 over the created cosmos. So his sin is irrelevant in the sense of it does not bring a curse to bear

00:10:26 on the created cosmos. So Satan sinning affects Satan, but even that's another interesting thing

00:10:33 in terms of angelic beings. There's no federal headship among angels. So Satan's fall doesn't

00:10:39 cause the created earthly cosmos to fall. It doesn't create or cause or necessitate

00:10:45 other angelic hosts falling. It just, Satan rebelling against God affects Satan. That's it.

00:10:52 Satan falls. What's key, integral, is Satan getting Adam to actually sin because Adam is

00:10:59 the federal head of not just, you know, Eve and all their posterity, but, you know, curses the

00:11:05 ground because of you. The dirt gets cursed. The whole enchilada, the whole, you know, created

00:11:10 cosmos, Adam was federal head over all of that. So yes, I think you're right chronologically that

00:11:17 the sin of Satan predates the sin of Adam, but Satan's sin doesn't cause anyone to fall but him.

00:11:25 He has no federal headship. He's not a father. You know, he is the father of lies, but he's not a father of any creature. He has not created anything. And so he's not representative of anything. So I don't think that, you know, so Satan sinning before Adam, I don't believe brings any curse of sin or darkness into the world.

00:11:46 Whether or whether or not there was darkness doesn't necessitate that that darkness was evil.

00:11:51 I don't think there was evil in the world before Adam.

00:11:53 I don't think Satan had that authority.

00:11:55 He doesn't have federal headship to bring evil into the world or subject the world to evil.

00:12:01 I would agree that the fall of Satan itself is not what brought darkness into the world.

00:12:06 But in the book of Job, we see God permits Satan to bring evil things into the world if the greater purpose is testing humanity or something.

00:12:14 And the Bible also says Satan and his evil forces have dominion over the world. 0.50

00:12:19 Now, because Adam gave it to them.

00:12:21 Right.

00:12:22 But I don't think it's chronologically necessary to say that that dominion began the moment Adam ate of the fruit.

00:12:29 I think you could easily say that that dominion was there before that.

00:12:33 And God allowed that because God knew what Adam was going to do.

00:12:36 God knew Adam would sin.

00:12:37 It's a very reformed thing to say.

00:12:39 So you're saying that before Adam sinned, because God simply knew in the mind of God,

00:12:45 so speaking of logical order, like a, you know, super lapsarian kind of, which I am super lapsarian.

00:12:51 But you're saying that because God simply knew in the mind of God that Adam eventually would sin,

00:12:56 that the dominion that God gave to Adam as viceroy over the earthly creation had already transferred to Satan

00:13:04 chronologically before Adam actually committed that sin?

00:13:07 i wouldn't say that the dominion transferred i would say that if adam had eaten from the tree

00:13:15 of life rather than the tree of knowledge of good and evil if adam had obeyed god then adam

00:13:19 would have immediately taken the whole creation from satan it'd be game over and then it'd be you

00:13:23 know eternal life kingdom of god here on earth right now all that stuff so if he had eaten of

00:13:29 the tree of life rather than the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would have taken

00:13:32 is what you just said he would have taken the creation the created order from the devil um so

00:13:37 you're presupposing that uh that the created order starts off as the devil's he just has it for some

00:13:44 reason i guess my question is why why why does he just by default get the created order why is it

00:13:51 his so he didn't create anything but i think he's had an influence from the very beginning because

00:13:58 we see darkness and chaos before light chaos is objectively bad uh satan is the father of chaos

00:14:03 god is the father of you know order um so it's the same reason god allowed any evil at all god

00:14:10 is glorified in defeating evil god brings light out of the darkness the most evil thing ever was

00:14:15 the death of god but the best thing ever that happened was the resurrection of god that's kind

00:14:19 of the the entire story of the bible like i think there's a difference between a calvinist and

00:14:24 arminian answer to theodicy the arminian answer would be god allows evil because something something

00:14:29 free will and the problem with that is okay will we have if free will is necessary could we screw

00:14:33 it up again in the new heavens and the new earth right that's a big problem the calvinist answer

00:14:38 which solves that problem is uh god allows evil because he's glorified in defeating it god allows

00:14:43 satan to fall the same reason uh george lucas allows darth vader to fall god is glorified in

00:14:48 defeating evil so amen why why did god allow satan to have an influence in the creation from the very

00:14:55 beginning god is glorified and defeating um god's glorified and defeating satan god could have done

00:15:00 that through adam but adam sinned so god came down himself and did it himself so he could be even more

00:15:05 glorified so i'm with you 100 in terms of god allows evil and even ordains according to the

00:15:11 westminster confession and well mainly westminster uh but you know all that takes uh all that uh

00:15:17 I forget the exact language, but it's all that comes to pass.

00:15:20 Whatsoever comes to pass.

00:15:21 Yeah, whatsoever comes to pass has been ordained by God.

00:15:24 So anything that God allows, I mean, it's just semantics.

00:15:27 If we say, well, he allowed it, but he didn't ordain it.

00:15:29 No, he ordained it, and that includes evil.

00:15:31 He doesn't create evil, but that's because evil is not a creation.

00:15:34 It's a lack of substance.

00:15:35 That's right.

00:15:36 Just like cold is a lack of heat.

00:15:38 So yeah, 100%.

00:15:38 So God doesn't create, he's not the origin of evil.

00:15:41 He does not do evil.

00:15:42 He does not create evil.

00:15:43 He's not the origin of evil, but he absolutely ordains evil.

00:15:47 not merely allowing, but his allowing is ordaining. So I'm with you 100% in that general,

00:15:52 if we're talking about just that general concept of God's sovereignty over evil,

00:15:55 where I lose you is I think you just, you would need to make a stronger argument. So you keep

00:16:03 saying that, you know, the devil had influence over the creation, over the created cosmos. And,

00:16:08 but the only, you know, way that you're substantiating that is just by the mere,

00:16:13 you know, presence of darkness or chaos, you know, the spirit hovering above the waters,

00:16:18 there was darkness, you know, those kinds of things. Because I'm with you, I think that,

00:16:22 you know, even when all six days are done, you know, so initially, of course, the earth is void

00:16:28 and without form. And so, you know, because there's a process of creation, God works through

00:16:32 processes and that's his prerogative to do so. And he has good and holy purposes for doing that.

00:16:37 You know, he could have just spoke it all into existence, but he does it over a six day period.

00:16:41 There's a process. But even when the process is complete, there's still wilderness. I don't think

00:16:47 the Sahara Desert is merely a result of the fall. I think that there were deserts in the world,

00:16:54 even when God looks at the whole world and says, it is good. And that that was, you know, that Adam

00:16:59 had an eschaton is, I guess, what I'm getting at. And I think you and I would agree with that. 0.97

00:17:03 So if Adam had never fallen, if he had never sinned and transferred dominion over the earthly

00:17:08 cosmos to Satan, his eschaton, part of what that would have been was working and keeping the garden,

00:17:15 working, I take that to mean that built into working, it assumes expansion, building, increase,

00:17:23 that by working faithfully in the garden, the garden would eventually have increased. And right

00:17:28 there, the implication is, it's important for us to recognize that all the creation, I think, was

00:17:32 good, but it was not all equally good, that the garden was superior to the rest of creation.

00:17:39 So there's a garden paradise, but there are other places that are not subdued, that are not

00:17:43 paradise. And then some places that are desolate, like deserts. And eventually what Adam would have

00:17:51 done in his working capacity is expand the garden over the whole face of the earth, including

00:17:55 deserts. And I think that's something that we're going to do. The new Adam, he's come to make his

00:18:01 blessings flow as far as the curse is found. I believe in human history before Christ's final

00:18:05 physical return, that there will be no deserts on the earth anymore. And I think part of the key

00:18:11 there is primary water, and I got to get really weird for that, and I won't. But tapping into

00:18:15 primary water, getting under the surface, boom, and maybe we do it with Mars too. But the point

00:18:19 is that getting rid of beautifying and cultivating the whole earth, that's the working, and then the

00:18:24 keeping is the defense. So sword and trowel, like Nehemiah and Ezra, the sword only exists to serve

00:18:31 the trowel. You don't need a sword if you're not building, because if you're not building,

00:18:34 you're not a threat and you won't be under attack. So you only need a sword to defend

00:18:38 the work that you're actually producing. And so I think Adam was to work and keep expanding the

00:18:43 garden and then keep it. He failed in that capacity. But all that being said, my point is,

00:18:49 even before the fall and before Adam sinned, the fact that there were desolate places or

00:18:54 wilderness or this or that, I don't think that necessitates evil. I think that that, or the

00:19:01 influence of Satan or Satan having some kind of authority over the created cosmos, I think all

00:19:06 that necessitates is that God had a process of, in the same way that he, you know, the process began

00:19:13 in the first six days of God's creation, void, without form, you know, spirit hovering above

00:19:18 the waters, and then, you know, that cultivates and culminates is what I'm trying to say, and

00:19:23 becomes greater and greater and greater. It's three days of creating and then separating and

00:19:29 then three days of filling is what we see in this creation pattern. And I think that pattern would

00:19:34 have just continued under Adam's dominion, under his reign. Eventually, every single desert gets

00:19:41 filled in and the whole world becomes a garden. And none of that necessitates these void places

00:19:48 or desolate places evil in my assessment all right everybody's been asking can i live stream

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00:20:50 eric khan biblical patriarchy let's just be honest it's a sensitive topic but eric khan i think is

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00:23:09 So you admitted that evil is not a substance. It's a lack of good. Evil is like cold and good

00:23:16 is like heat. So in that sense, you can't say that something is less good without saying it's

00:23:22 more evil. There's the way you can't say something is less hot without saying it's more cold.

00:23:26 Well, okay, so getting philosophically, if we're talking about, you know, the evil is something that's created that's not fulfilling its purpose.

00:23:33 And glory, for something to be glorious, it's fulfilling the purpose for which it was designed.

00:23:37 I think, you know, deserts were created by God and that he created no bad thing.

00:23:43 So I think that God created deserts, that deserts are inferior.

00:23:47 They pale in comparison to garden paradises, but that a desert is not evil, because a desert is a desert.

00:23:58 That's what it's, it is deserty.

00:24:00 It is fulfilling its desert function. 1.00

00:24:04 Right, so this is going to sound kind of bardian, I think he was right about this, 0.89

00:24:08 but anything that is, by nature being finite, anything that is finite is, in some sense, a little bit evil compared to God. 0.63

00:24:17 So that way, the only way for God to be reconciled to the finite creation is a form of theosis through Christ, where all of creation partakes of God's infinite, perfect goodness through the incarnation.

00:24:29 That's why Barth was a super lapsarian in saying that the incarnation is absolutely necessary.

00:24:34 Even if Adam had not sinned, Jesus still would have had to have incarnated into this world for the sake of reconciling God to creation.

00:24:42 okay bring that uh back to the just to apply that for me to right so because creation evolution

00:24:50 because of that you can say that you can assume that if there's darkness darkness equals evil i

00:24:56 i think the in conjunction with the fact that the tree of life i think implies that death was the

00:25:03 norm before that that in conjunction with there being darkness and chaos um in the very beginning

00:25:09 i think that implies that yes there was evil there was not only was satan there but satan

00:25:16 had some sort of influence before the fall um it says like the serpent was the serpent was more

00:25:22 crafty it clearly the serpent wasn't born yesterday clearly he had already been active

00:25:27 i think all those in conjunction it doesn't make a conclusive case it doesn't uh make a case such

00:25:32 that i can say someone's being unbiblical if they don't agree with this definitely leaves over the

00:25:37 leaves open the possibility for evolution. And I think evolution is actually a beautiful picture

00:25:43 of the gospel. It is life out of death. It is light out of darkness. The resurrection is the

00:25:48 ultimate example of good being brought out of evil. One of my favorite verses in the whole Bible

00:25:52 is Genesis 50, where it says, you meant it for evil. God meant it for good. Satan meant all this

00:25:57 death for evil. God brought good out of it. The whole reason God allows evil is because he's

00:26:02 glorified and bring good out of it. I kind of converted to Christianity the night that I

00:26:06 realized God brings good out of evil, because the problem of evil was kind of the reason

00:26:10 why I was doubting God, why I refuse, even though I believe in a deistic God, I refuse to submit to

00:26:15 any sort of real interactive God. So that's just for me why I think evolution is a possibility.

00:26:23 Not only possibility, it makes the most sense to believe in evolution. I think it makes most

00:26:28 sense with the biblical narrative. I don't think it's conclusive, but it's something I believe in.

00:26:32 i also think you know the it's naturally revealed that um evolution is true that's a whole different

00:26:37 debate there's really two debates whether um whether we can justify theologically whether

00:26:42 we can justify it scientifically i would say i'd say affirmative to both but even so that's just

00:26:48 one of the things i believe um i i believe in certain modern you know evolutionary neo-orthodox

00:26:54 ideas but only insofar as they're compatible with you know historic christianity with westminster

00:26:59 with all that and you think evolution is compatible with the westminster yes i would

00:27:07 it's like it said it says you know six days i think so i mean the bible also says six days but

00:27:14 there's a long tradition of that being interpreted in all sorts of ways even way before darwin

00:27:19 existed so all right interesting well strongly disagree but i'll be debating that in uh in

00:27:28 December with, uh, this is December. I'll be debating that sometime this winter with

00:27:31 Keith Foskey. So yeah, Keith's a good guy. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll check it out when it comes

00:27:36 out. I'm sure it'll be interesting. Um, and you know, I, I, I, I'm, I'm sounds kind of funny,

00:27:45 but I'm kind of glad that you affirm evolution because, um, you know, in two to five years,

00:27:50 that's going to be a great testimony. Um, and I think God will use you powerfully as you condemn

00:27:55 evolution because inevitably I absolutely believe you will see about that we'll see about that

00:28:01 kind of like kind of like how you're going to become Presbyterian in a few years

00:28:05 that's the running joke uh that is that's been the joke online and uh I see how people get there

00:28:12 yeah everyone says everyone says I'm a week away from becoming Catholic and they've been saying

00:28:17 that for like as long as I've been an internet thing at all like a year so yeah the whole Catholic 0.69

00:28:23 argument of you know well you protestants are crazy and believe a million different things i

00:28:29 you know i i get it uh but then but then here's the thing you look at the pope 0.88

00:28:36 you know and explain to me how that's better again explain to me how the pope is not nearly

00:28:44 as liberal as what i've seen in mainline protestant denominations it's like i'll still

00:28:48 grant that Catholicism has been less high hijacked than Protestantism has, but for sure, I think you

00:28:54 could use that as an argument for Protestantism. The devil hijacks what is the greatest threat to

00:28:58 him. I think the greatest threat to Satan's kingdom is Protestantism. That's why it's been 0.99

00:29:03 so targeted. Um, so it's like, that would be another great conversation we could have one day

00:29:09 is, uh, cause I, you know, when I think of the Protestant reformation, I feel like in a lot of

00:29:14 way. So I'm grateful. I'm Protestant and, you know, but, um, I'm grateful. Uh, and I think

00:29:19 it was mostly good, but I, I do think in a very real sense, um, that, uh, the Protestant 0.77

00:29:24 Reformation was opening, uh, Pandora's box. And there's, uh, there are certain things we just,

00:29:29 um, that have come out of that box that, uh, that don't go back in that box. And, um,

00:29:35 and that we are forever, uh, that, that Christendom is forever, um, going to have to

00:29:42 face some immense challenges because of the protestant uh reformation that when it comes to

00:29:48 post-modernity and um and subjectivism uh like when it comes to just assurance of salvation

00:29:54 like i understand i don't know if you've read much about like the federal vision you know

00:29:59 controversy and things like that but like i understand i'm sympathetic in what they were

00:30:03 trying to get at i'm not i'm no federal visionist um i you know but i i think that part of it was

00:30:08 this attempt of, without embracing Roman Catholicism, trying to say, like, is there any

00:30:13 objectivity to the covenant? Is there any sense of assurance? Is there any sense, like, can I ever,

00:30:19 you know, or we as Protestants just going to be looking for the burning of our bosom, you know,

00:30:24 like in this kind of, like, to, you know, well, I'm a Christian because I feel it. Like, so much

00:30:31 of Protestantism is the feels and that you can't really, that doesn't go back in the box. Like,

00:30:40 you separated from tradition and from the Roman Catholic Church and rejected these things,

00:30:48 and I understand why theologically I'm on the Protestant side, but there are some immense

00:30:52 challenges when it comes to Protestantism is just, it's moldable, it's malleable, it's subjective,

00:30:59 um way more subjective than i like yeah i think federal vision was a justified reaction

00:31:05 to subjectivism and low sacramentology in the pca and the opc because like what federal vision

00:31:13 teaches about the sacraments aside from pedo communion it's just classic reform theology

00:31:18 um now i pedo communion contradicts the westminster and scott's confession so i reject

00:31:23 pedo communion but the whole idea that baptism makes you christian objectively that's classic

00:31:28 reformed theology um the idea that the covenant is objective that's classic reformed theology

00:31:34 so i'm not a federal visionist but the idea that people are calling this heresy

00:31:38 it's like some people will call federal visionists heretics because they're half lutheran

00:31:43 but they don't call lutherans heretics yeah i know that that's what yeah that's what i don't

00:31:47 get it's like i well i do get it i it's it really is this simple um it's associated with doug wilson

00:31:54 that's all there is i mean that really is all all there is to it because because you're right

00:31:59 because it's it's like well this is a halfway house between luther you know lutheranism and

00:32:04 you know presbyterianism and it's like okay well are lutherans heretics no presbyterian heretics

00:32:09 no it's a it's not a lot of it's just classic reform stuff the reality is the pca is a halfway

00:32:16 house between presbyterian and southern baptist um and i've had many pca ministers admit that to me

00:32:22 uh but like peter lightheart in terms of the theological aspect he's probably the most

00:32:27 hardcore federal visionist in terms of his you know theology um my pcusa pastor has quoted peter

00:32:34 lightheart so um i feel like the conservative end of the pcusa like i said it's kind of just

00:32:40 it's very similar to the federal vision crec guys minus the paedo communion um pcusa was never

00:32:46 rocked by the federal vision controversy we were too busy debating whether to believe in god

00:32:51 so we don't really we don't really take a side on that but um oh that's so sad yeah that's not

00:32:58 we're trying to fix i think the reason the mainline churches got hijacked they're a threat

00:33:02 to satan's kingdom there's a reason there's a reason there was no progressive hijack of the

00:33:07 jehovah's witnesses or the mormon church right or or scientology there's there's no jehovah's

00:33:13 witness pride flag church right um it's because satan doesn't bother retaking them there there's

00:33:19 a reason that there's no progressive hijack of islam it's not a threat to satan's kingdom so 0.51

00:33:26 it's like when eastern orthodox yes i'll admit of all the christianity you know expressions eastern

00:33:31 orthodoxy has been the least hijacked by progressivism and they're like oh that means 0.70

00:33:35 we're right become orthodox okay by that logic islam is correct because islam has gotten even 0.88

00:33:41 less hijacked by progressivism than eastern orthodoxy so the most hijacked is i think honestly 0.86

00:33:47 the most hijacked is the you know puritan congregationalist um hardcore calvinist

00:33:54 denominations out of everything i think those are the ones that are would be most glorious if we if

00:34:01 we retook and congregationalism is a via media between presbyterian and baptist so maybe that's

00:34:06 something that the um crec folks could get on board with right yeah and they are on on i think

00:34:12 the CREC folks already are on board with, um, yeah, they're the most ecumenical to, you know,

00:34:19 at least reformed, you know, reformed Baptist guys. Um, I mean, if you're, you know, if you're

00:34:24 just a typical American, you know, Armenian Baptist and you're not going to have much room

00:34:30 there, but, but yeah, I know lots of guys who are, you know, there's 1689 congregational guys

00:34:35 and they're in the CREC. So, yeah, cool. Well, redeemed zoomer. Um, thank you, Richard.

00:34:40 thank you well thanks for having me on this is great

00:34:42 you're welcome

00:34:44 god bless

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The NXR Podcast - January 29, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - The Theistic Evolution Debate ｜ @redeemedzoomer6053

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