The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - The Type Of Church That Will Last with @ADRobles - ICYMI

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00:00:41.760 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:44.680 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:48.480 In this particular episode of Theology Applied, I'm privileged to welcome back to the show

00:00:53.160 A.D. Robles.

00:00:54.220 In this episode, we discuss three primary characteristics of local churches that will

00:01:01.080 endure the coming persecution to America.

00:01:04.560 In 50 years from now, if America still exists, if God is so merciful, there's three different

00:01:11.100 characteristics that will cause churches to be able to survive the coming persecution

00:01:17.260 to our nation.

00:01:18.480 Many churches have closed their doors.

00:01:20.800 many more sadly will close their doors in the coming decades. But I guarantee you that there

00:01:27.480 are three characteristics that will make the difference. What are those three characteristics?

00:01:32.680 Tune into this episode to find out. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology

00:01:40.180 Applied. Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:01:48.940 Right Response Ministries. And in this particular episode, I am privileged to welcome back to the

00:01:53.880 show a regular guest that we have on Right Response Ministries, A.D. Robles.

00:01:58.800 Hey, how's it going? Thanks for inviting me again.

00:02:01.560 You're welcome. Tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself,

00:02:04.960 just in case they don't know who you are.

00:02:07.420 Yeah, absolutely. I got a YouTube channel. I got a podcast on the Fight, Laugh, Feast

00:02:11.240 network. You can find me just by typing in my name on both, A.D. Robles, R-O-B-L-E-S.

00:02:17.300 i'm also pretty active on twitter if you don't like fighting you know you probably won't want

00:02:21.400 to follow me on twitter but if you like seeing uplifting stuff uh i'm also on gab i'll post

00:02:26.120 pictures of my you know kids playing little league or my my chickens or uh fishing pictures

00:02:31.340 so if you like that kind of stuff you know just like normal regular life i'm on gab as well

00:02:35.960 cool yeah i think you posted something today the day that we're recording this

00:02:40.300 that said like twitter you know i go to twitter to fight i go to gab to relax

00:02:44.060 twitter's really good for fighting it is i mean it really is the way the algorithm works

00:02:49.220 you know it's it's very difficult to sort of uh block out anything like all the things you don't

00:02:55.360 want to see on twitter on gab it's really easy so like a lot of people say gab you know it's

00:02:59.100 full of haters and there's definitely a lot of aggression on gab no question but it's very easy

00:03:04.240 to curate it so what i've done at gab is just anyone who's got any kind of like hardcore

00:03:08.880 negativity i just i just block them i just mute them whatever and i've curated this list if you

00:03:14.040 look at my gab if you were on my side of it it's just like pictures of people's farms and

00:03:18.220 fishing pictures and stuff like that it just is a very very pleasant place nice cool well so what

00:03:25.680 i was thinking for this episode is um kind of a prediction episode what will the church look like

00:03:31.380 in the future and more particularly like what type of church what kind of churches are going to make

00:03:37.040 it? You know, the, uh, what is it? N G N G M I not going to make it. I'm like sitting there.

00:03:45.920 I like that one. That's a good one. Yeah. Not going to make it. And, uh, so like what kind

00:03:49.720 of church, you know, kind of maybe a white, white pill spin on it. What kind of church

00:03:54.620 is going to make it? And I've thought of three things that I think that we could just kind

00:03:59.180 of go back and forth and discuss, um, the type of church that I think, you know, is

00:04:04.120 going to make it. Like I'd love to say, you know, like I'd love to do on this episode, say, well,

00:04:07.820 there's seven things like being confessionally reformed and being covenantal and your theonomy

00:04:13.280 and presuppositional and patriarchal and, you know, Kuyperian and theonomic.

00:04:17.620 That would be nice and neat.

00:04:18.960 Right. Yeah. And like, so that, I mean, that's, you know, if I'm hosting a conference, which I am

00:04:23.500 March 1st, 2nd and 3rd, Doug Wilson is coming and we got Foster coming. And so like, I'm going to

00:04:28.560 focus on those things because I think that's the right path. But, you know, in the spirit of a big

00:04:33.260 content, ecumenical spirit, you know, I think that like, okay, if we can boil things down to

00:04:39.300 the common denominator, I think there are three primary characteristics that pop into my mind

00:04:43.660 of the type of church that I think would still be around in 50 years. So if I, you know, I'll think

00:04:49.180 about the title for this episode, but it'll probably be something along the lines of, you know,

00:04:53.100 the type of church that will survive the next 50 years in America. So anyway, so I won't list

00:04:59.740 them all up front. I'll just start with one and then throw it to you. But one thing that I think

00:05:04.340 is churches that engage the culture, engage society, engage the world around them, they're

00:05:09.820 not pietistic. So they're engaging the world, but also they have a certain optimism. They think

00:05:16.000 that they can win. And I don't mean by that, that they have optimistic eschatology like

00:05:22.120 post-millennialism. Again, that would be like one of, you know, if that's my path, I'm going to try

00:05:27.960 to get guys to be post-millennial because I think it's true. But I'm not saying that you have to be

00:05:31.700 post-millennial. I'm thinking of like, you know, there were certain things that were wrong with

00:05:36.120 this movement, but like the Joshua generation, you know, in a few decades past, you know,

00:05:42.040 there was a lot of good things that came out of that. And for the most part, a lot of these guys,

00:05:46.300 they weren't Calvinist. They were Arminian, you know, kind of Arminian decisionism Baptist with

00:05:51.080 the dispensational pre-millennial ingrained, you know, eschatology. That's just the air that they

00:05:57.560 were breathing. And yet they were raising their kids, homeschooling their kids, raising them to

00:06:02.500 know the Lord and not just to retreat, but to actually run for political office and to try to

00:06:09.520 change the fabric of society with a mindset that not that Jesus is going to come back in 20, 30,

00:06:16.140 40,000 years, but that Jesus might come back in 50 years. But they were thinking, okay, but 50

00:06:22.000 years, my kids have to live during these next 50 years and I'm going to have grandkids.

00:06:27.560 in these next 50 years so i'd like these next 50 years to be good and and so anyway so that you

00:06:33.180 know i think like even the dispensational so i'm not making it eschological i'm saying even from

00:06:38.360 a dispensational pre-mill standpoint which i would sharply disagree with uh just like post-mill we're

00:06:43.260 saying okay the trajectory overall is up but there are dips along the way i think we're in a dip right

00:06:47.920 now well you could be pre-mill dispy and say the overall trajectory is down but there are some

00:06:53.040 spikes along the way. So why wouldn't you, because we know in the last 2,000 years,

00:06:57.580 even if you're a dispensational premillennial, you can't argue with history that in the last

00:07:01.800 2,000 years, we've had some good moments. We've had some spikes where things actually

00:07:06.320 improved. So there's no biblical argument to say that that couldn't happen here and that it

00:07:10.960 couldn't happen now. So no matter where you're at eschatologically, I think that every Christian

00:07:16.500 should believe uh that that uh we might be able to win a battle or two and and winning a battle

00:07:23.060 or two could make a world of difference for our children and and what kind of life the quality of

00:07:27.940 life that they're going to have and so i think you know so i'm not saying every church is going

00:07:32.160 to be post-millennial but i think over the next 50 years churches that engage the culture society

00:07:37.580 politics and engage it with an attitude that that engagement matters and that it's not just beating

00:07:43.140 at the wind it could actually make a difference i think that kind of church will last i think any

00:07:47.440 church that's pietistic that doesn't really engage the culture or thinks that there's not even spikes

00:07:52.780 along a downward trajectory that there's no victory not even for 10 years or a decade i think

00:07:57.740 those churches are going to go the way of the dinosaur what do you think you know i think i

00:08:01.220 think um if you think of the next 50 years you know and if you if you think like i do about sort

00:08:07.020 of the economy and stuff like that you're not you know you're not doom and gloom necessarily but

00:08:11.480 But I think most people kind of agree that the standard of living that we've enjoyed for a very long time is kind of steadily decreasing.

00:08:19.860 And so over 50 years, that might go down even further, you know, and so that doesn't mean we're all going to be, you know, starving to death, you know, or something like that.

00:08:29.180 But it's just like even even today, like, I don't know how it is around you in Texas, but like when I go to the store today, it's a lot different than when I used to go to the store five years ago.

00:08:38.880 It's like five years ago, nothing was ever out of stock.

00:08:43.280 These days, certain things are out of stock from time to time.

00:08:46.000 And that's not a big deal.

00:08:47.000 I don't want to seem like I'm complaining.

00:08:48.620 We still have an abundance.

00:08:49.680 We still have everything we need.

00:08:50.820 But it's just different.

00:08:52.200 And I think it's more similar to what you see in other countries, where they don't have quite the standard of living that we do in the United States, or at least that we've had.

00:09:00.980 so as the standard of living goes down i think people you know you like they they do tend to

00:09:07.820 like sort of uh cling to spiritual things a lot more joyfully i don't know if you've ever noticed

00:09:14.220 this like you've been on like a a mission trip to a poor area whether it's in the united states

00:09:18.960 or outside the united states like the churches are just a lot more optimistic i think than than

00:09:24.320 than some of the churches that i grew up in in connecticut you know what i mean um and i don't

00:09:28.440 know if that's just because they're charismatic or maybe it's maybe that's part of it but i don't

00:09:33.060 know i feel like people like like they they they need a an outlet for positivity when things aren't

00:09:40.000 quite going as well as they want them to be and maybe that's part of it maybe it's just kind of

00:09:44.520 a natural thing where like you know life's a little tougher so you know you you kind of you

00:09:50.580 lean on the church for more of your joy you know you get together with people you hang out you do

00:09:55.900 these things that maybe you wouldn't do if things were better for you you know what i mean things

00:10:00.060 were going really well i don't know if that's really real but to me i've noticed that when i

00:10:04.800 gone into poor areas of churches in poor areas church is a little different you know what i mean

00:10:10.240 right yeah it's it's yeah there's more positive but a lot of that does come from what you just

00:10:14.740 put your finger on the communal aspect it seems like the communal aspect that's it that's that's

00:10:18.940 actually exactly what i'm thinking of yeah because i think we you know part of it is like when you

00:10:23.540 so much stuff you're more content to be alone so it's just like i'm just going to spend a quiet

00:10:29.060 evening you know like like a lot of americans when they think of like you know even on on

00:10:33.140 twitter or social media like describe you know the perfect evening a lot of people like the

00:10:36.820 description that they would um that they would you know put forward for the you know an evening

00:10:41.700 that they would enjoy would be an evening alone or or maybe an evening just with their spouse it

00:10:46.340 would be you know i know i'm like that right exactly yeah it would be a book or a glass of

00:10:50.340 wine or watching the sunset or in a hot tub or, but like none of them, one common denominator

00:10:56.580 is that it's not this big communal kind of thing. Whereas like, you think of Southern

00:11:01.380 slavery, you know, in America and like part of the reason why like the black church would 0.76

00:11:05.940 have still even historically to this day, you know, the overtones of this continuing,

00:11:11.300 like traditionally really long services, you know, like five hour long church services,

00:11:15.700 where it's just singing and singing and singing and singing and preaching and preaching and

00:11:19.060 and preaching and preaching without getting into any of the theology. Like part of that does come

00:11:23.780 over from like, all right, if, if life is hard six days a week, then on the Lord's day, it's like,

00:11:29.120 this is a moment of reprieve and we don't want it to end, but they spent it together. You know what

00:11:34.280 I mean? Like, it wasn't like, Hey, we just, you would think like, you know, I'm, I'm physically

00:11:38.600 exhausted. I'm just going to stay home and sleep all day. But that wasn't the mindset at all. It

00:11:42.240 was like, I don't want to waste a minute of daylight. I'm going to get with the saints,

00:11:45.980 get with my brothers get with my sisters and we're going to spend we're going to have some

00:11:50.860 good old timey church and it's going to be all day long and so so i'm with you yeah and i don't

00:11:57.680 think it's a matter like you said it's not really a matter of eschatology because i think of a lot

00:12:01.020 of people i'm thinking of you know my grandparents for example are one of them you know i used to go

00:12:04.840 to their house in the bronx you know and and compared to people in the bronx they were pretty

00:12:09.040 well off compared to like some people in the bronx but you know like their eschatology like

00:12:15.160 they they didn't share what i what you and i believe about eschatology they thought they

00:12:20.020 thought that the world was going to hell in a handbasket you know but they didn't really act

00:12:23.780 that way you know what i mean they they had a family they they their family their kids had a

00:12:28.720 lot of kids and they they were playing for the future they were setting money aside they were

00:12:32.260 doing this they were doing that they were they were had an expectation of you know we you know

00:12:37.500 we we need we've got to make moves here you know what i mean even though their theology was not

00:12:42.320 that way it was sort of like you know Christ is coming tomorrow probably and I think I've heard

00:12:46.240 my grandmother even say that many times um it really wasn't like that it's just

00:12:51.100 they were making moves in their own way and they felt like you know like Christ was on their side

00:12:59.080 and they could do what they needed to do and they had confidence in the future they had faith in the

00:13:03.620 future um so yeah it's it's a very interesting dynamic because you're right it really doesn't

00:13:09.860 have a lot to do with their formal eschatology you know what i mean right yeah that's interesting

00:13:16.580 i think i think you're right about that you know going into the future the next 50 years 1.00

00:13:20.240 people are gonna be looking for that a bit more because there's a lot of blackfield people out

00:13:23.380 there joel i don't know if you've noticed there are there are a lot of them are christians sadly

00:13:27.580 or at least professing christians but yeah so i i think post-millennial eschatology is on on the

00:13:33.040 up and up i think there's a resurgence so i think we are going to find more post-millennial churches

00:13:36.940 And I'm excited about that because I think it's biblically true, not just because it's

00:13:40.220 fun, not just because I think it appeals to young men, which I do think it appeals to

00:13:44.120 young men.

00:13:44.800 There are all the pragmatic reasons and all, you know, all the, but ultimately I think

00:13:48.600 that it's true to the scripture.

00:13:49.780 I think it's what the scripture teaches.

00:13:51.380 And so I want to see that become a more dominant, you know, eschatology.

00:13:55.220 And I think that's going to happen.

00:13:56.180 But my point is, I think if I'm getting down to the common, you know, the lowest common

00:14:01.580 denominator. I think it's simply going to be people who believe it's going to be not so much

00:14:07.700 anti-premillennialism. I think it's going to be anti-pietism. It's going to be anti-retreatism. 0.98

00:14:16.920 And it's going to be people who are engaging the world. They think that the church actually has

00:14:23.720 potential to change the world, even if they think that's only going to be temporary. Even if they

00:14:30.500 think jesus is going to come back in 20 years but um uh but we can uh we could make the next five

00:14:37.980 years better and five years uh a five-year improvement matters it matters for me for my

00:14:45.040 wife for my children for my grandchildren and it's worth fighting for so i think that's like that's

00:14:49.880 one of the things that honestly you can kind of get a you know i'm thinking 50 years you know but

00:14:54.880 you can get a really good five-year gauge of what the church is going to be like by just looking at

00:14:59.780 um kind of like the the pink pill you know conservative world outside of the church

00:15:07.460 because because that's really you know that's i mean the church is just it's it's embarrassing

00:15:11.960 how behind like right now i think the church is more woke than the world and it's because the

00:15:17.180 church is always like five to seven years behind so so the like there are guys like like establishment

00:15:22.780 regime big eva guys who are literally like they're more woke than the average person that you meet at

00:15:28.420 the grocery store and it's and it's not because that person at the grocery store wasn't that woke

00:15:33.520 they just they were that woke in 2020 and they're just up with the times you know but jd greer still

00:15:39.480 hasn't got the memo you know what i mean like it's it's isn't that embarrassing like yes

00:15:45.720 but it's true it's it's like so it's so true so my point is like i think like the church is going

00:15:52.840 to come out of wokeness and and this is so sad to say like but why am i confident the church is

00:15:57.780 going to come out of wokeness? Well, first, because I think Jesus is Lord and he's the head

00:16:01.760 of the church and he's not going to abandon us. But secondly, I think the church is going to come

00:16:05.760 out of wokeness in approximately five years because the culture as a whole is coming out

00:16:10.620 of wokeness and the church usually follows the culture five years behind. Crazy stuff, man.

00:16:16.740 Crazy stuff. All right. So anyways, okay. So the second one that I was thinking is law and gospel.

00:16:22.160 So the first one is engaging the world, not being pietistic and being hopeful. You could

00:16:27.620 still think overall the trajectory is down in terms of your eschatology, but thinking that

00:16:32.120 we could make a difference now and that difference matters. So even if it's only going to be better

00:16:36.700 for 10 years or 20 or 50. So I think that's number one. Number two, I think is churches that don't

00:16:41.800 just preach the gospel, but also preach the law. So why don't you talk to us a little bit, because

00:16:47.340 you've had experience with this. You were at Tim Keller's church for a while, you know, may rest

00:16:50.880 in peace. I think Tim Keller, for the record, I think he would agree with this. I think he's with

00:16:54.940 the Lord right now. I think that he was regenerate. I think that like 1 Corinthians 3, verses 8 through

00:17:00.360 11, I think not everything Keller did, but a good bit was wood, hay, and stubble, especially towards

00:17:06.500 the end of his ministry was burned up. He suffered much loss, but he himself is saved. And so I think

00:17:12.660 Tim Keller is with the Lord, but I think Tim Keller had probably had some regrets. Right now,

00:17:17.220 I think he's in eternal bliss, but I think when he first saw the Lord, there was some apologies

00:17:22.820 that were taking place for some of his latter ministry.

00:17:25.660 But all that being said, so I'm not trying to pick on him

00:17:27.820 because I know he just recently died.

00:17:29.860 But my point is Tim Keller is kind of the pinnacle,

00:17:33.180 the epitome of what I would call not gospel centrality,

00:17:36.640 but gospel myopticism, gospel only-ism.

00:17:39.880 Can you talk about problems with that?

00:17:42.460 Preaching the law, here's the thing.

00:17:45.080 I think that, especially men, there's a need for like a practicality

00:17:51.880 to the faith as well so so so listen you know a simple faith you know that's a beautiful thing

00:17:58.460 you know and you trust in the lord for your salvation that's a beautiful thing you know and

00:18:03.920 it's part of the commission you know we're baptizing uh the nations in the name of the

00:18:07.840 father the son and the holy spirit so that's like obviously we we've got to focus on on converting

00:18:12.600 people uh to the faith that's that's for sure um but i think men especially like there's a i think

00:18:19.520 people get men get frustrated when it's like you know you ask questions because i remember i used

00:18:25.120 to ask this question so like okay now what what do i do you know what i mean like and and basically

00:18:30.780 the answer that i would get is like well you just come to church on sunday and you sing these songs

00:18:35.200 and you know and you know maybe we'll talk about your struggles with sin and that's about it

00:18:40.520 but there's that's not about it you know what i mean because the commission itself a whole half

00:18:47.020 of it is about teaching them to observe everything that i command and so um i think that that what

00:18:52.920 you're what you're kind of referring to here is that the churches that'll survive are actually

00:18:56.420 going to be teaching are going to be doing the second part of that commission now the question

00:19:01.640 that i have is are they doing it for good or for ill like are they teaching the right way or the

00:19:06.500 wrong way right are they are they teaching you but but i guess your your point is to survive one way

00:19:12.180 the other whether it's a solid church or not a solid church they're going to have to be doing

00:19:16.760 that you know they're going to have to it's not going to be enough to have the sentimentality

00:19:20.400 uh to survive in the next 50 years right i think that's kind of what you're driving at right yep

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00:21:02.700 America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty

00:21:06.220 before God and not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.

00:21:10.620 Reese Fund exists in order to see the Ten Commandments properly applied, not just as a

00:21:15.060 plaque on the wall, but to actually be used in business as though they're commandments from God

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00:21:35.640 right but i think part of that is what you just said in terms of like men needing to have you

00:21:43.220 know be practically told what to do i think a lot of that uh was we were able to assume in like you

00:21:48.900 know a neutral world where there wasn't quite as much opposition sure and with a better economy

00:21:53.900 where it was just it was easier to provide for a family easier to get a job more people you know

00:21:59.320 just, it was just what you did. You got married, you know, typically in your twenties, you had a

00:22:03.960 few kids, you bought a home, but now like those things aren't givens anymore. Like now it's like

00:22:08.860 really hard to find a woman, um, that you trust enough not to ruin your life. That's why like you 0.97

00:22:14.960 have the whole red pill manosphere, you know, on the secular side of things that is totally not 0.89

00:22:19.440 Christian. And like their advice, they're, they're giving law, they're giving practical, you know, 0.82

00:22:24.160 uh, steps for men. And, and those steps are get a vasectomy in your twenties. Don't ever get

00:22:29.560 married. And, and I get it. I mean, it's, it's totally there. It's not red pill. It's black

00:22:34.200 pill. Like they're, you know, they're totally wrong, but I get the sentiment because what

00:22:37.720 they're thinking is, um, if you marry a woman, you've just given her a loaded gun. Um, you,

00:22:43.980 you've just like, you have just, uh, given someone the, the authority and the power and

00:22:50.180 the ability to completely destroy your life. And statistically speaking, it's more likely that

00:22:56.140 she'll do it than that she won't right now, you know? So I think my point is in the world that

00:23:01.240 we now live in, because Christendom has been, you know, leaving the port and going out to sea

00:23:07.040 because of our rebellion and our apostasy, because of those things and because God will not be mocked

00:23:12.960 and a man reaps what he sows and we're living in a worse world because of it, there are a lot more

00:23:17.700 men who need direction than they used to. And they don't just need like man up. They need to

00:23:21.880 be told how to be a man. What, you know, practically, what does that mean Monday through

00:23:26.300 Saturday? How do I get married? How, how do I discern whether or not this, this woman's going

00:23:30.900 to marry me and then take half of my stuff, you know, and, and, you know, so anyway, so I just 1.00

00:23:36.980 think, yeah, I think that trust Jesus, he died for your sin will, will not be enough churches

00:23:44.600 that only you know keller always preached the first use of the law so here's the law of god

00:23:49.400 and here's how it functions as a mirror that that reflects to you your fallenness your your

00:23:54.840 shortcomings your sin and then here's the gospel here's jesus and how he did all those things that

00:23:59.960 the very things that you just failed to do um and all that was true you know and then he's like

00:24:04.600 here's jesus and this is how jesus fulfilled those things perfectly on your behalf so trust in jesus

00:24:09.480 That's almost a great sermon. I wouldn't say that's wrong at all. I would just say it's

00:24:14.120 incomplete. Then what I think we're going to see over the next 50 years is churches that then add

00:24:18.920 to that the third use of the law that says, so here's the law. This is how you failed. This is

00:24:23.820 why you need Jesus. Here's Jesus. This is how you fulfill these things in your place, not just

00:24:28.480 substitutionary death, but substitutionary life. Now let's go back to the law in its third use as

00:24:33.920 a lamp unto our feet, a light unto our path, something we delight in that shows us the way

00:24:38.320 not to the way to salvation, but the way from salvation to further sanctification that shows us

00:24:45.180 not just that we're sinners and we need Jesus, but now that we have Jesus and we're responding

00:24:49.760 in gratitude for the free gospel of grace, it shows us how to live. I think that's going to

00:24:55.300 become, I think that especially young men will not tolerate a Tim Keller type church 10 years

00:25:03.320 from now 20 years yeah yeah and and the thing and the thing about this is that you know up until now

00:25:09.520 like guys like tim keller have been very good at um it kind of like not disguising what they're

00:25:17.940 saying but but making it sound good because like if you told the person like you know yeah you know

00:25:23.180 i'm never gonna i'm never really gonna tell you practically what to do like that's not important

00:25:27.740 people would see right through that right so they'll say things like well you never actually

00:25:32.300 move on from the gospel you always need the gospel you need to preach the gospel to yourself

00:25:35.720 every single day and um you need to every single passage it's just really about the gospel and you

00:25:40.820 need to think about that and it's like well that sounds like like to some people especially to new

00:25:45.400 believers that sounds okay that sounds pretty good i guess that makes a lot of sense you know

00:25:49.460 because i'm always going to be you know fighting against my sin and i still do struggle with my sin

00:25:53.940 so i guess i do need to just focus on the gospel every single day and the thing is though that like

00:25:59.020 i think you're right like when when when times are somewhat normal you know somewhat you know

00:26:06.040 you can kind of assume a certain set of morality i mean i remember when i was growing up you know

00:26:10.940 which was not that long ago i'm not that old yet joel you know but but when i was growing up it's

00:26:15.200 like everyone kind of knew that like homosexuality was a deviant lifestyle even if they didn't think

00:26:20.480 it was a sin they didn't think it was you know anything really wrong with it it was something 0.97

00:26:25.280 that you want did not want to do you didn't want to do that it was deviant you know even even

00:26:29.840 degenerates didn't want to degenerate that much you know what i mean so in the 1960s we knew that

00:26:34.700 even a dude a man having long hair was degenerate like that's why a guy would grow out his hair

00:26:39.780 exactly 100 so i guess so i guess my point is like when everyone's kind of working with the

00:26:48.520 same assumptions you don't like you can kind of get away with some of that stuff but you're right

00:26:53.400 Like these, these days, you know, especially men are struggling with like lots of basic, basic stuff and they're turning to YouTube to basically guide them.

00:27:04.240 And, and that's, that's a day.

00:27:06.220 YouTube is, is not necessarily, I like YouTube.

00:27:08.740 Don't get me wrong. 0.98

00:27:09.680 I, there's a lot of cool stuff on YouTube, but there's a lot of garbage on YouTube garbage. 0.90

00:27:14.220 And I don't know, man, have you noticed Joel, some of these like manosphere types? 0.74

00:27:19.140 I don't even know if they technically would still call themselves

00:27:21.140 manosphere types, but that's how they kind of came up. 1.00

00:27:25.140 Lately, I've been talking about how good some of these trannies look. 1.00

00:27:28.660 I don't know if you've noticed that. 1.00

00:27:29.900 There's a few guys that have been doing that.

00:27:31.600 I have not noticed that.

00:27:31.880 And I'm like...

00:27:32.460 I don't even...

00:27:33.660 I kind of just stay away, and I probably should...

00:27:36.220 Michael Foster's been talking to me and saying,

00:27:37.900 Joel, you should probably...

00:27:38.840 So do you know who Rolo...

00:27:40.120 I think Tomasi is his name?

00:27:41.680 Do you know who that is?

00:27:42.400 I've heard of him.

00:27:43.160 I don't really know anything about him.

00:27:44.460 So he just...

00:27:45.540 We'll see.

00:27:46.340 By the time this comes out, I'm going on his show this

00:27:49.020 Friday. He invited me to come on his show. So I really don't have any idea what I'm getting into

00:27:53.500 because I like, I don't know that the whole, the whole secular manosphere I've heard from like

00:27:58.940 Foster has told me a few things, Brian Silvey, you're telling me some things right now. So I

00:28:03.080 feel like I'm getting a little bit of prep, but I've just met like Andrew Tate. Like I've never

00:28:06.560 listened to a single thing from Andrew Tate. You know what I mean? Like I know, I know his name.

00:28:10.800 I, you know, so no, I do not. I saw a few things recently and I, I, I, I put on my muted words on

00:28:16.580 twitter i don't want to see any more yeah anyway the point is the point is though that that uh if

00:28:23.560 we're talking about churches that are going to survive it's going to be churches that have

00:28:26.500 answers to some of these questions right and again hopefully they're good answers hopefully it's like

00:28:30.780 it's more than just you got a man up you know you got to be a man like that's that's that's

00:28:35.200 nothing that's not that's not anything um but uh because otherwise they're going to find these

00:28:39.940 answers somewhere else and there's a lot of very bad answers out there for a lot of these basic

00:28:43.740 questions. Yep. I completely agree. Yeah. The man up that I think, you know, that, that phrase man

00:28:49.600 up, like it came from somewhere. And when it first, you know, originated, it probably made

00:28:54.460 sense because what was being said, you were talking to some effeminate, you know, and it

00:28:59.500 was probably, you know, something a father would say, you know, to, um, a son, you know, who's

00:29:04.620 maybe he's 11, 12 years old, but, and, and I don't think that's wrong, um, because he's telling him

00:29:10.140 do, when he says man up, he's saying, for one, the boy knows what a man is, right? We're currently

00:29:17.760 living a culture that can't define what a woman is, you know, or a man, you know, and so, but that

00:29:23.400 was at a time when people were saying man up, you know, once upon a time, you know, you could assume

00:29:29.140 that somebody actually knew what a man was, and so what you were saying is, you were basically

00:29:34.280 saying obey the law of God for you as it pertains to you, a man. Right now you're sinning, you're

00:29:40.120 being effeminate, you're being cowardly, you're being lazy or whatever it is. You're being 0.99

00:29:44.280 rebellious or disrespectful or whatever it is, or you're not being chivalrous and you need to be a

00:29:51.720 man, son. You need to man up. Well, now when you say man up, it's like, what is that? So guys who

00:30:02.260 just say man up, but don't teach you what it is to be a man, that won't work. And then guys who

00:30:06.280 say well jesus was the perfect man in your place so you don't have to be one that gospel-centered

00:30:11.640 preaching that dog won't hunt either you know so yeah yeah yeah and the thing is like you know

00:30:16.980 obviously like most people aren't like totally brain dead they understand that you know men have

00:30:21.560 you know male parts and you know things like that but but you're right there is basic confusion

00:30:28.160 about what's a man supposed to be doing like what what what is when a man and a woman uh get

00:30:33.680 together and they form a family like how do they divide up that labor what's supposed to happen

00:30:38.400 like what's the what's you know like that stuff i mean people people are totally confused about

00:30:44.620 that stuff you know what i mean i think a lot of people a lot of guys still have it in their gut

00:30:48.500 they they know they're supposed to be the provider but like they've been propagandized so much that

00:30:53.160 they think it's almost like it's like sexist to even like try to assert that or to you know to

00:30:58.160 push that too hard. You're totally right. Like, I think like the, I don't know what a woman is

00:31:04.240 kind of stuff. Yeah, there's some wackos out there that pretend like they don't actually know. They 1.00

00:31:08.220 do know, but there's a lot of confusion about what we're supposed to be doing, what men are

00:31:13.600 supposed to be doing, what women are supposed to be doing, what they're not supposed to be doing.

00:31:16.340 Right. Yep. I agree. So I think, you know, law and gospel, like we can, it's never anything 1.00

00:31:21.840 less than the gospel, but that's, you know, that's been my hobby horse for a few years now is just

00:31:27.220 saying, okay, like if we really want to be gospel-centered, a gospel-centered sermon is not

00:31:32.540 law and gospel, amen, let's go home. Like quite literally for it to be gospel-centered, it's law,

00:31:39.020 gospel, law. Like the gospel is in the center, right? So the gospel is flanked on not just the

00:31:45.120 front end, but the front and the back on both sides, right? It's like an Oreo cookie. You got,

00:31:49.820 you know, you got two little chocolate law pieces, you know, and then you got that white creamy

00:31:53.540 gospel in the center and so yeah and and that's that is like that's the way the bible works it's

00:31:59.520 here's the law of god um and and in its first use it's like oh my goodness that's that's god god's

00:32:05.500 a thrice holy god that's his perfect standard and uh and i have not lived up to that oh my goodness

00:32:11.360 um woe am i you know like i'm a sinful man depart from me and then it's like you know gospel right

00:32:18.320 it's white pill here's jesus he actually all those things he did for you right but then the

00:32:22.580 immediate response is well if you know first john 419 we love because he first loved us well if he

00:32:27.580 loved me freely like that while we were yet sinners christ died for me in the midst of my sin he loved

00:32:32.240 me he paid the price well then man i can't help but love him back and and i want to show him my

00:32:37.520 love so jesus um i love you what can i do to show you that i love you if you love me obey my

00:32:44.160 commandments you know so then it's right back to the law and but now fueled by grace not trying to

00:32:49.860 earn his love or earn salvation, but rather a response of gratitude for the free salvation

00:32:55.100 we have by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and you'll fail inevitably,

00:32:59.920 and then you go back to the gospel, and then you go back to the law, and you go back to

00:33:02.400 the gospel, and you go back to the...

00:33:03.340 But this idea that the law only functions in its first use initially to get a person

00:33:09.020 to realize they're a sinner so that they'll get converted, and then it's just kind of

00:33:14.360 that is, and now we're no longer under law, but grace, that is such a horrible exegesis of

00:33:21.260 scripture. But a lot of guys, like a lot of Christians have believed that. And people,

00:33:26.880 I've just noticed people are coming out of that, like in droves right now. Like guys,

00:33:31.620 hey, we're no longer under law, we're under grace. Yeah, you're not under, if you're a Christian,

00:33:36.180 you're not under the law in terms of condemnation. That does not mean that the law is no longer God's

00:33:41.960 universal standard for morality and the light of our path and the lamp unto our feet, the direction

00:33:49.860 that we should orient our lives towards. That's not what Paul meant in Galatians when he says

00:33:54.760 we're no longer under law but under grace. He said we're no longer under law as our final judgment,

00:33:59.620 as our condemnation. We very much are still led by the law as a guide, as a compass. And so anybody

00:34:07.620 who's preaching you're no longer under law but under grace we're antinomian there's no place

00:34:12.600 for the law here except for just to convince people who aren't saved yet that they need jesus

00:34:17.120 uh i really think like those churches are going to go the way of the dodo bird and already are

00:34:21.720 like people are leaving those churches i i think so and honestly honestly i do think i think you

00:34:27.120 kind of kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier but the a lot of the woke stuff is is

00:34:33.060 an attempt to sort of fill that void uh of of of of the the law on the back end of the gospel

00:34:40.100 kind of thing because that's appropriate that's totally appropriate uh but they didn't want to

00:34:44.760 fill it with god's law they wanted to fill it with something else and so they that's that's why a lot 1.00

00:34:49.060 of these churches went woke you know if you notice a lot of the people that are like the wokest

00:34:52.800 people out there they're like these gospel centered people that that before would never

00:34:57.620 ever preach about the law and they thought that was that was that was not right in fact i had a

00:35:02.060 guy telling me to my face this is like a low-level gospel coalition goon told me um directly and said

00:35:08.640 you're never satisfied you're never satisfied ad first first you told me that i i never brought

00:35:14.760 up the law now i'm bringing up uh the law and and you're against it and i'm like what are you

00:35:21.140 talking about because what he was doing was he was he was misquoting the law you know he was

00:35:24.740 you know he was he was saying things that you know you know you know what the woke people do

00:35:30.080 you know the you know right uh let justice roll down like waters you know and that means you know

00:35:35.820 social uh programs right right you know what i'm talking about so so but so so i think a lot of the

00:35:42.820 woke stuff was almost like a self-conscious move saying you know we can't just do this thing where

00:35:48.080 there's no there's no uh uh discipleship there's no like now what now what do i do i'm saved what

00:35:54.940 do i do now like they couldn't just stay there and say we're gospel centered nobody was buying

00:35:59.780 that anymore so they had to do something and so churches decided and i think i think they i think

00:36:04.820 a lot of churches made this decision it's either you go woke or you've rediscovered the law and a

00:36:10.140 lot of these guys are like christian nationalists now you're right that used to be an 829 you know

00:36:14.760 some of these guys you know what i mean yep yep we talk to them regularly you and i um yeah no

00:36:19.760 that's exactly what happened it's like um like it's the same as the the new calvinist movement

00:36:24.620 um you know like the young reform and restless like you can you can basically everybody who's

00:36:28.860 Young Reformed and Restless. And I was, you know, I was on, I was a little bit too young to be a

00:36:32.760 part of, you know, but I was on the back end of that. I was Acts 29 for a little bit. All the

00:36:36.580 Young Reformed and Restless guys, uh, pretty much split right down the middle, 50, 50, uh, 50 of

00:36:41.820 them apostatized and, you know, 50% and then 50% of them went confessionally reformed in our either

00:36:47.320 like 1689 or Westminster. Um, you know, and, uh, and more liturgical and regular principle of

00:36:52.860 worship, you know, and, and that, that kind of thing. Um, and, and most of them cessationist

00:36:57.580 and kind of dropped the, you know, the Wayne Grudem, John Piper kind of continuationist

00:37:01.440 Calvinist, new Calvinism thing.

00:37:03.340 Same thing with gospel-centered.

00:37:06.280 So this is a little bit more than just the young, reformed, and restless Acts 29 Driscoll

00:37:11.260 Chandler group.

00:37:11.980 This is like, had some older guys like Keller, this is your gospel coalition, you know, Nine

00:37:16.260 Marks, you know, the gospel-centered movement, same thing.

00:37:20.560 um uh they they pretty much all over the last few years instinctively realized um the gospel

00:37:27.960 is supposed to be um accompanied with god's law it's law and gospel law and gospel law and gospel

00:37:35.180 and uh half of them embraced law but it was uh man's law which was um antithetical to the law

00:37:42.960 of god social justice is it's not that we don't like justice we don't like social justice because

00:37:48.480 it's unjust. It's not biblical justice. The other half though, at first, I don't think they

00:37:53.720 responded well. Like guys, good guys that you and I like, and you and I probably were part of this

00:37:59.960 a little bit. Our first kind of line of attack to the wokeness of embracing this law, our first line

00:38:07.640 of attack, because we were so steeped in the gospel centered, you know, myopticism. Our first

00:38:14.180 line of attack was, um, uh, this is the Galatian heresy. This is legalism. You're adding works to 0.98

00:38:19.600 the gospel. That should have never been our line of attack. We should not have said, uh, this is

00:38:24.940 bad because it's, um, it's a twisting of the gospel. It's adding works to the gospel of free

00:38:29.140 grace. It's legalism. It's, um, uh, no, that, that, that shouldn't have been the, I think we

00:38:34.620 shot ourselves in the foot and we're recovering now, but I think we could have beat the woke

00:38:38.780 thing. Um, probably two years faster. I think we could have been done with this two years ago.

00:38:43.400 and now we're coming out of it um but we're coming out of it because we're finally employing the

00:38:47.720 right biblical attack instead of saying you're conflating the gospel and adding works to the

00:38:52.160 gospel because some guys were doing that saying like if you don't uh if you don't believe in

00:38:56.080 in reparations and you don't believe the gospel okay well that's a galatian heresy that's out

00:39:00.880 sure no question but but a lot of the woke guys weren't the worst of them were doing that but a

00:39:05.460 lot of them weren't doing that they were careful enough to not conflate works with gospel yeah

00:39:09.200 Um, and, and so then we kept insisting, well, you are, you are inflating works with gospel.

00:39:14.020 You are being a legalist.

00:39:15.320 Um, when they actually weren't, the line of attack we should have used is, uh, we should

00:39:19.640 have said, uh, the works that you're adding, you're not conflating with the gospel.

00:39:23.440 You have, you have a distinction between gospel and works.

00:39:25.880 The problem is that the works, although distinct from the gospel are the works of the devil.

00:39:30.420 They're demonic works.

00:39:31.900 They're evil works.

00:39:32.340 They're not good works.

00:39:33.620 This, you know what I mean?

00:39:34.680 That should have been, that should have been our answer.

00:39:37.760 And it took, it took us.

00:39:39.200 two extra, in my assessment, two extra years to like John Harris is on that train now. Like he's

00:39:46.120 like, no, he wasn't always there though. But he wasn't always there. He wasn't always there. And

00:39:49.880 so it, you know, and John, and we could say that about John, he'll watch this and he'll laugh

00:39:53.780 because he's a good friend. But like it took him, it took me a little, you know, I wasn't quite as

00:39:58.160 much as John, but anyways, it's, you know, it took us a little bit to realize, oh, wait a second.

00:40:03.640 The biggest problem with this is not a perversion of the gospel. A perversion of the gospel is a

00:40:09.060 huge problem but a lot of guys weren't a lot of them were doing that you're right and and in

00:40:12.640 fairness and in fairness to john a lot of these guys the worst of them were definitely doing that

00:40:18.420 100 the worst guys were doing that that's true yeah so so yeah there were some dudes out there

00:40:23.880 doing that but but a lot but not everyone and the ones that weren't doing it were still wrong

00:40:27.740 yeah the guys who were saying the whole gospel that they were doing it they were when you start

00:40:32.720 saying the whole gospel, and the whole gospel means reparations and universal income and

00:40:40.840 whatever. And you're saying this is the gospel, or that you can't be saved apart from, then that

00:40:47.820 is the Galatian heresy adding works to the gospel of grace. And the worst guys were doing that,

00:40:52.500 and John nailed them on it, and he was right. Absolutely. But the minions, their followers,

00:40:58.440 right? So you've got a few elite guys who are doing that. But most of the guys are the followers.

00:41:04.560 And I would say the majority of guys actually weren't doing that. They actually had a clear

00:41:11.380 distinction between law and gospel. The problem is that their law wasn't God's law. And it took

00:41:16.540 us a while, I think, to figure that out. So anyways, all that being said, I think moving forward,

00:41:21.060 you're absolutely right though, that like God used in his mercy, he used COVID, he used BLM,

00:41:26.120 He used the whole woke thing from 2017, 18, 19, and then really, you know, climaxing in 2020.

00:41:32.520 I think he used that for, we couldn't beat the wokeness by just saying Galatian heresy, Galatian heresy, because that didn't apply to everybody.

00:41:41.420 So then what we had to do to beat it is we actually had to go back to the law of God.

00:41:46.580 And the beauty is that now coming off of this, you've got a lot more churches like mine, you know, that preach law and gospel.

00:41:54.840 so all right that's it guys i tried to warn you the time has finally arrived our early bird pricing

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00:44:19.020 let's go absolutely no i i think and and what's interesting about the the two things we've brought

00:44:26.720 up so far you can see sort of like there's going to be a dichotomy there's going to be churches

00:44:31.060 that are solid that survive and there's going to be some evil churches that survive that are

00:44:35.260 doing these things just the like the bizarro like anti-christ version right bizarro superman and

00:44:41.380 they're going to be and they're going to be the regime churches they're going to be the churches

00:44:44.140 for you know essentially you know the people that are on capitol hill kind of thing you know that

00:44:49.600 that kind of thing um and eventually they'll die out too but right that's what's going to happen

00:44:54.580 but they'll they'll be the bad ones that last the longest you're absolutely right and we and let's

00:44:58.400 explore that a little bit more but with the third one now uh the third one that i was thinking of

00:45:02.740 is third characteristic of churches that i think will last for 50 years is uh churches that feel

00:45:08.260 old, churches that have like some kind of traditional, historic, you know, old, tried

00:45:18.060 and true, trusted, credible sentiment, you know, that, that I think as, you know, this

00:45:24.120 gets into like technology, it gets into AI, it gets like, as the world continues to progress

00:45:29.440 and more and more things become digital, as the world becomes more digital and, and becomes,

00:45:35.540 Michael O'Fallon would love this, you know, digital currency. And, you know, as the world

00:45:39.700 becomes more digital, digitized, and, and there's more things that are doctored and tweaked and

00:45:46.240 twisted, I think there's going to be a yearning for, for what is true. What is true? What is

00:45:53.020 true? What is authentic? What is real? What can I trust? And, and so on the bad side of things,

00:45:58.620 the bizarro world, you know, upside down world, but churches that, that mimic God's design,

00:46:03.860 but in the opposite sense but they last because they're still mimicking his design um i like that

00:46:10.040 would be the perfect example of that would be like um like an episcopalian church where you know

00:46:15.540 you're walking in with like like a 400 year old bible you know being carried and there's like

00:46:20.680 three altar boys with you know lit candles walking behind the priest and and there's thrones up on

00:46:26.240 the stage and stained glass and chandeliers hanging and it's glorious it's this cathedral

00:46:31.060 It all looks beautiful. It looks legit. And then the guy gives a 15 minute homily on why

00:46:36.700 Paul, you know, when he cast out the demon of the slave girl, he was wrong to do that, you know, 0.92

00:46:42.720 and whatever, you know, and, and the dude is, you know, and the priest is actually gay and 0.94

00:46:48.240 his boyfriend is sitting on the front row. And I say that like as some random, you know,

00:46:53.800 illustration, but I actually, I actually knew a priest like that when I was pastoring in California. 0.85

00:46:58.740 When I was pastoring in California, we met at an Episcopalian church in the evening, and the priest was gay. And his boyfriend would sit on the front row, and I remember going to one of the services, and it was a 15-minute homily where he said the Apostle Paul was wrong for these reasons in this particular text.

00:47:14.640 So anyways, all that being said, but the, the aesthetic looked trustworthy. It looked, you know,

00:47:21.360 and so when you're, when you're sitting on YouTube all day, you know, and, and, and watching TikTok

00:47:26.000 and, and your work is, um, is, is in an office bunker underground where you don't see the light

00:47:32.420 of day, you know, no sunlight and it's everything was on the computer and AI and virtual reality and

00:47:38.880 all this kind of stuff and it's progressing. And then you can go to the sun gloriously cascading

00:47:45.860 through a stained glass window of a church that's 300 years old, the building. And there's these

00:47:51.800 old rituals that they've been doing for centuries. Even though the actual content of what's being

00:47:59.300 preached is antithetical to the Bible, the veneer feels legit. It feels legitimate and

00:48:05.780 uh, and, and it'll, that'll be take longer to, to come down. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I think

00:48:12.680 that's, I think that's interesting. I also think, um, even besides just the aesthetic of the actual

00:48:18.440 physical building and stuff like that, um, the, the liturgy like actually is going to make a big

00:48:24.360 difference too. Like if you have a solid, you know, you know, somewhat ancient liturgy, you

00:48:31.440 You know, where you do things like, you know, you sling the Gloria Patri or you do catechisms questions or, you know, I don't know what people are doing.

00:48:41.020 But what I'm saying is like, as the world gets, at least it seems to get more chaotic, you know, at least what you see online, what you see on TV and what they push is more chaotic anyway.

00:48:53.540 um i think that people are going to be attracted to having a sunday uh lord's day that is predictable

00:49:01.020 that is beautiful that is uh constant that has the feel of constants you know it's like it's just

00:49:08.040 this is what we've been doing for a long time you know people have been singing you know the glory

00:49:12.920 patry for hundreds of years people have been singing you know um doxology for however long

00:49:19.480 you know i don't even know when these songs were invented but i'm just saying like i think people

00:49:24.080 are going to be attracted to that as things get more and more chaotic especially online because

00:49:28.420 a lot of the things that are happening online with ai and this whole idea of like trying to get

00:49:34.020 people to to plug into this metaverse thing i don't know if that's ever going to work but

00:49:37.860 it's something they're trying you know all this digitization of everything it's it's it's a way

00:49:43.480 to introduce all kinds of chaos you know what i mean it's just it's just a crazy anyway um

00:49:49.040 yeah i think so i think people are going to be attracted to that kind of thing they're not going

00:49:52.340 to want to to go to the the the the the church where like anything can happen and so there's

00:49:58.300 like there's like uh skits and in concerts and stuff because that's just like everything else

00:50:02.300 that they know you know what i mean and the world always does it better you know and so yeah um

00:50:07.120 yeah i yeah this is a spectacle for spectacle's sake it's not really like for anything it's just

00:50:11.800 right so you're you're copying the spectacle in a place where it's inappropriate there's no way

00:50:17.520 you're going to do that right right yep so i think liturgy and like that kind of feeling of of a

00:50:23.980 connection to the past is going to be important you know what i mean i think and actually a lot

00:50:29.180 of the things that are happening right now they're trying to disconnect you from the past they're

00:50:32.760 trying to disconnect you from your ancestors they're tearing down the stats statues of your

00:50:37.560 ancestors they're renaming buildings or renaming you know bridges you know all this stuff and that

00:50:43.760 all is intentionally disconnecting you from your history. And I think that there's going to be

00:50:48.220 pushback there for sure. Yep. I agree. So as a recap, the three things, you know, one is guys

00:50:54.520 who believe engaging the culture, the world, politics, society matters, and that you could

00:51:00.060 actually experience success. And it doesn't necessarily, you know, necessitate that you're

00:51:04.900 post-millennial and your eschatology. But if you think Jesus is coming back in 20,000 years or in

00:51:10.680 20 years. Um, the post-millennial believes the trajectory overall is up, but there are dips

00:51:16.100 along the way. The Disby pre-mill guy, you know, on the opposite, you know, of the spectrum of

00:51:21.200 eschatology, he believes the trajectory is down overall, but even he believes there could be

00:51:26.760 spikes along the way. And so anybody who believes, um, that, that, uh, even from a Disby pre-mill

00:51:32.320 standpoint, anybody, regardless of eschatology, if they believe that engaging the culture matters,

00:51:36.680 that pietism be damned engaging the culture matters and that it could actually be successful

00:51:42.900 that our engagement it matters because it actually by god's grace could make a difference

00:51:48.420 i think that's going to be um a big factor the second one law and gospel not just uh jesus was

00:51:56.180 jesus so that you don't have to be jesus thank god for jesus let's go home um but but uh no here's

00:52:02.120 the law. Here's how you're a sinner. Here's Jesus. This is how he fulfilled it. In light of his free

00:52:06.540 gift of grace for you, fulfilling the law in your place, you now love him as a response. And those

00:52:12.080 who love him will obey him and he has commandments and here they are. And so in gratitude, not trying

00:52:18.900 to earn his salvation, but in response of gratitude for his salvation, we're seeking to obey in order

00:52:24.740 to demonstrate our love. We show our love to Christ through obedience. If you love me, you will

00:52:29.100 obey me. So preaching law and gospel, particularly the third use of the law,

00:52:32.840 not just the first that reveals that you need the gospel, but then the third use of the law

00:52:36.840 as a response to the gospel. And then the third thing is churches that have some kind of history,

00:52:44.520 some kind of tradition. I think confessional churches will do particularly well. I think the

00:52:51.700 building, the cathedral, if you got it, great. Praise God for that. But I think if you're meeting

00:52:57.580 in a barn, like a Western hoedown country line dancing place where I'm currently meeting

00:53:03.140 in Wahlberg, Texas, with cows around and stuff like that, but having a robust liturgical

00:53:09.880 worship service, which we have.

00:53:12.420 It's simple church in terms of the aesthetics.

00:53:15.060 I think aesthetics matter.

00:53:16.700 Angels in the architecture, I'm down for that, but it's just what we have right now in the

00:53:20.380 providence of God, and we're grateful for what we have.

00:53:22.580 But even if it's simple church in terms of the building, you can still have robust, historic, rooted, grounded church in terms of just your liturgy and your worship, your order of worship and the way that you preach and those kinds of things.

00:53:38.000 And I think that with technological advances

00:53:41.000 and people constantly pulling the wool over you,

00:53:44.160 institutions constantly, everybody's lying to you.

00:53:46.360 All the time, people are lying to you.

00:53:48.200 So to have something that feels rooted and timeless

00:53:50.980 and tried and tested and true will go a long way.

00:53:54.600 So I think those are the three things that I thought of.

00:53:57.560 Any final thoughts on that or final word?

00:54:00.180 I think all of these things,

00:54:02.120 when you think about it all together,

00:54:04.440 I think people are going to be looking and they're already doing this, looking for like an authenticity to everything.

00:54:13.200 You know what I mean? Like I know lots of people still go to mega churches.

00:54:16.400 I don't think that that kind of thing is going to survive into the future.

00:54:20.740 And one of the big reasons is because it's very difficult to do the community thing or even to to to to to be quite honest, like it's very difficult to to to to to even like really pastor people or even like to even do the basic stuff right in that content.

00:54:40.760 I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very difficult.

00:54:42.300 um and so um and and i think that a lot of i think automatically some of the uh kind of like

00:54:49.360 traditional feel of church goes out the window when you have 10 000 people in your church you

00:54:54.900 know and video screens everywhere like a stadium so anyway um all that to say is that i think people

00:55:00.580 are gonna the the stuff on like internet is part of real life that i'm not gonna say to do the

00:55:06.780 thing where it's like internet's not real life but with ai content creators and you know all kinds

00:55:13.700 of lying content creators there's like a there's one there's one common uh carnivore diet content

00:55:20.060 creator that presents themselves as a man but it's actually a woman oh okay okay and anyway

00:55:25.640 whatever like the point the point is like there's all kinds of lying going on and deceptions and

00:55:30.220 things like that people are gonna i think rebel against that to some degree and they're going to

00:55:35.820 They're still going to consume online content, of course, but the voices that are too easily manipulated by or copied by AI, like, you know, if I type in AI right now, chat GPT, you know, give me an article about the latest event, you know, in the style of Gospel Coalition, it will be identical to what you'll find from Gospel Coalition.

00:55:54.720 That's going to go the way of the dodo.

00:55:55.980 Nobody's going to want that anymore.

00:55:57.320 They're going to want, you know, more authentic style online content.

00:56:03.620 but i think they're also going to want just in real life people real life people that they could

00:56:07.420 hang out with that they could grab a beer with if you're presbyterian if you're you know if you're

00:56:11.560 baptist maybe grab a grape juice or something like that we have wine for the lord's supper

00:56:15.300 because we're biblical and i drink beer and you know this ad we have drank beer together i do

00:56:19.440 know this that's why i said it but i'm one of the minorities i i admit that i admit anyway but my

00:56:25.780 point is like they they're gonna want to have people that um that you know it's they're they're

00:56:32.260 serious about the lord um but there's there's as little pretense as possible i think sometimes you

00:56:37.820 know i'm not saying this is true of every megachurch i've never been to every megachurch

00:56:40.740 but when i go to megachurches you know you've got the the greeting team and you've got this

00:56:45.720 and everything seems very contrived now every church usually has that they'll have someone

00:56:50.160 that goes up to new people and and but when it's in a smaller context it just does not feel

00:56:54.860 the same you know what i mean it does not feel the same if you've ever visited a smaller church

00:57:00.040 where you kind of had the idea that oh this is the guy that they send to new folks to talk to

00:57:04.720 them like it just it's different it's different from a megachurch to a smaller church right anyway

00:57:10.780 i i think all this stuff is all about human connections and like authentic connections

00:57:16.020 because what we get online and what they're trying to push on us is all inauthentic i mean even down 0.83

00:57:21.660 to like the sexuality like they're trying to push transsexuals that's inauthentic yeah obviously 0.87

00:57:26.480 To say the best about it, it's inauthentic. 1.00

00:57:29.720 Right. Yep.

00:57:30.980 I think that that's the common denominator with all the things you just said, you know?

00:57:35.320 Yeah. You're absolutely right.

00:57:37.380 I think one thing on the megachurches, I was just thinking, you know, megachurches really became a thing in the Bible Belt and Southern California would be another hotspot.

00:57:48.520 But megachurches became like the church growth movement, Bill Hybels, you know, like large.

00:57:53.700 Like, I mean, technically, you know, like Charles Spurgeon,

00:57:55.580 you could argue that he had a megachurch,

00:57:57.200 you know, the London Metropolitan Tabernacle.

00:58:01.040 Like, so there have been some big churches.

00:58:03.260 I think the Church of Antioch was probably pretty big,

00:58:05.260 the church in Jerusalem.

00:58:06.140 So, like, I'm not, you know, neither you or I

00:58:08.420 are philosophically inherently against megachurches.

00:58:10.900 But in terms of megachurches being so common,

00:58:13.760 a dime a dozen, that's relatively new.

00:58:16.980 A new phenomenon that you can track back

00:58:19.340 to pretty much the 80s and 90s.

00:58:21.120 However, what I was going to say is that one thing that's radically changed is the internet. A lot of reason why the megachurch appealed to people is because they wanted to be able to slip in and slip out and have an experience without the community.

00:58:40.780 They didn't go to a megachurch

00:58:41.820 because they wanted a community with 10,000 people.

00:58:44.040 You go to a context of 10,000 people

00:58:45.920 because you don't want community

00:58:47.200 because you're just a number that you can,

00:58:49.620 you can't go to a church of 75 people

00:58:53.100 and show it 15 minutes late

00:58:54.540 and not be noticed for being late.

00:58:56.900 You know what I mean?

00:58:57.800 Like, you better be on time

00:58:59.720 and you also, if things are uncomfortable

00:59:01.740 or you don't like it or you're bored or whatever,

00:59:03.740 like you can't slip out without it being kind of-

00:59:06.920 Well, I'll tell you, this is,

00:59:08.240 I'm sorry to interrupt you,

00:59:08.940 but this is so this is and it's not from it's not typically well maybe it could be from a place of

00:59:13.500 judgment but i'll tell you right one time uh recently i was uh i have a new church i don't

00:59:18.940 know if i if i told everyone in the audience this you know just a church a local church just in my

00:59:23.880 town so i was driving an hour and it was a great church but it was an hour away you know so anyway

00:59:29.080 so i uh we just started going to this church and my my family was out of town i even forget where

00:59:34.600 they were doing but i was all alone and so i went to church that day and um i just started feeling

00:59:40.600 really ill you know in the middle of the service and so i just i skedaddled right and i'll never

00:59:47.220 forget it like i got a text after church was over from my from my buddy it's like dude i saw you

00:59:53.080 leave are you all right and it wasn't from a place of judgment it's like is everything okay kind of

00:59:57.020 thing he saw me because there's only like 50 people at that church right exactly well and

01:00:02.120 that's what i'm saying so my point is like pairing that with the internet when when the mega church

01:00:06.820 movement church growth movement bill hybels that kind of thing saddleback you know like when that

01:00:10.680 really was becoming a thing um and praise god saddleback you know it was just voted out of

01:00:15.240 the sbc and so that you know that's hopeful there's a lot such a white film that's great news

01:00:19.160 but it's great news let's let's take it and celebrate the lord um but with that um you know

01:00:25.000 when when that was becoming a thing the mega church church growth movement thing was really

01:00:28.700 lifting off um you you did not like yeah sure like maybe you you the internet was a little bit

01:00:35.120 after that coming on the scene but it wasn't like it is now it was not um podcasting was not a thing

01:00:41.580 youtube was not a thing um and and all those things are getting better they're all youtube's

01:00:47.120 getting better you know streaming services are getting better twitter you can do twitter spaces

01:00:50.940 now and and all these and so my point is if that's all somebody wants is just an experience

01:00:56.600 like to um and and typically the person who goes to a megachurch wants the um the uh the invisible

01:01:02.500 experience the the unnoticed slipping in unnoticed experience my point is that um the type of person

01:01:08.620 who goes to a megachurch um i'm not saying they're going to leave a megachurch and find a small

01:01:13.220 church i'm saying they're just not going to go to church at all i think that's right over the next

01:01:17.020 few years that person they're just going to listen to uh to youtube right they're just going to watch

01:01:22.780 youtube they're going to listen to podcasts they're going to you know uh be following the

01:01:26.180 really there's no difference. There's no difference. That's my point.

01:01:29.240 From their perspective. Exactly. Exactly. And so my point is that I think now like the internet

01:01:34.040 and all these spaces, these little virtual communities, pseudo communities online have

01:01:39.700 become so dialed in and, and, and have improved so much in terms of content experience, being

01:01:48.040 able in the chats and stuff like that to engage with people and talk as you're listening and all

01:01:52.620 like, uh, why, why get out of bed? You know? And so I think that, uh, the only, you know,

01:01:57.680 the mega church is, is gonna, um, I think it's going to become extinct. I really do. I think

01:02:03.100 that the only thing that's going to, um, endure is, uh, when I'm thinking I got to get out of

01:02:09.200 bed. Well, for me, I won't use me as an example, because for me it's, I need to worship the Lord.

01:02:13.100 I need to lead my wife and children. I also need a paycheck. It's my job, you know, so

01:02:17.220 my situation is a little bit, but the person, the average person who's a member at covenant

01:02:22.080 Bible Church, the church that I pastor in Central Texas, when they show up, they're showing up

01:02:27.840 because they're thinking, it's the Lord's Day, and I need to take the supper, I need to eat the

01:02:35.460 bread, I need to drink the wine, I need to sing and address one another, not just God that I can

01:02:42.640 do privately while listening to a worship CD, or CDs aren't even a thing anymore, worship, whatever,

01:02:48.040 you know, but like a song on, on Alexa, you know, whatever at home. But no, I, I'm commanded to

01:02:54.240 address one another, the saints with Psalms, hymns, and spiritual. So I need to sing to people.

01:02:59.140 I need to eat bread, drink wine, renew. It's a covenantal renewal ceremony. I need to renew

01:03:06.260 the covenant. I've broken the covenant this last week, renew the covenant with the Lord.

01:03:09.860 Remember my baptism. And I need my kids and my wife to be washed in the word, to be physically

01:03:17.080 present there um i you know those those and i need to uh check up on these people that i love

01:03:23.200 and that i know and shake that i need to touch them and shake their hand and ask them how are

01:03:27.920 you doing and go to lunch with them and blah blah blah and uh i think like that's that will never

01:03:33.400 get replaced the metaverse cannot replace there's no substitute for that that will never go anywhere

01:03:38.760 that's jesus model and it if it ain't broke don't fix it so that's going nowhere uh but you look at

01:03:44.740 the average megachurch,

01:03:46.160 seeker-sensitive kind of church experience.

01:03:48.620 And I'm looking at that,

01:03:49.700 and then I'm looking at Twitter spaces,

01:03:51.600 and I'm looking at Jordan Peterson lectures

01:03:53.560 with the Daily Wire,

01:03:54.600 and I'm thinking megachurch,

01:03:57.940 it has a short expiration date.

01:04:01.400 That thing ain't going to last much longer.

01:04:04.300 Yeah, this has been interesting, though.

01:04:05.380 I honestly haven't really considered too much

01:04:07.780 about what kinds of churches will actually make it.

01:04:13.120 They're going to make it.

01:04:14.180 you know then this is interesting i think i think there's some some good stuff here cool well thanks

01:04:17.920 so much for coming on the show ad and uh let our listeners know how they can follow you yeah like

01:04:23.220 i said uh youtube uh fight laugh feast you could just type in my name ad roblez and uh i'm on

01:04:29.200 twitter at ad roblez media um and also gab same same handle there cool all right hey the church

01:04:36.620 that you found did you find a presbyterian church no it's baptist again it's baptist again yeah

01:04:43.300 That's hilarious.

01:04:44.840 There's a Presbyterian church pretty close that we were going to go to, 0.86

01:04:47.960 but they went super crazy COVID Nazi and a little bit woke, 0.69

01:04:52.480 so not going to fly.

01:04:54.360 Yeah, we've got plenty of Presbyterians in our church

01:04:56.620 because some of them went woke, but a couple of them didn't go woke,

01:05:01.460 but they so overreacted to COVID.

01:05:05.160 Yeah, that's a big thing in Presbyterian circles,

01:05:07.520 the COVID overreaction.

01:05:08.640 It really is, man.

01:05:09.080 Yeah, this got so bad that they weren't even singing.

01:05:11.740 They didn't even sing. They said, well, you just got to hum to yourself

01:05:14.740 because you don't want to get the aspirate, you know?

01:05:16.740 Exactly. That's exactly what this church in town, they're OPC.

01:05:20.740 They're not woke, but yeah, same thing. They bifurcated.

01:05:24.740 They went to two services intentionally, not because they had so many people,

01:05:28.740 but they had a mask-required service and then a mask-optional service.

01:05:32.740 But then, you know, the mask service, there was no singing allowed in that service.

01:05:38.740 And, and so, you know, and so people just saw that, you know, and, and it's, you know, and I'm talking like it's 2021 now we're getting closer to 2022 and that's still going on. And so people are like, all right, well, yeah, Joel's not going to baptize our infants. And so we got to figure that out. You know, we'll, we'll get them baptized in the middle of the night by some Presbyterian minister, but we're going to go to a church that we're going to go to a church that has some, some faith and, and some spine.

01:06:04.700 yeah so yeah 100 yeah but it's but it's it's a solid little church and i'm pretty excited

01:06:09.800 to have a uh a five minute drive and i can actually hang out with people in fact we did

01:06:14.260 last sunday we hung out with people after church because awesome we didn't have an hour drive back

01:06:18.260 home you know yeah that's awesome how long did you go to the other church the one that was an

01:06:22.860 hour away how long were you there yeah for like four or five years oh i i've been telling them

01:06:28.040 that i'm leaving to to go closer to home for like three years but they were they were probably still

01:06:34.080 really sad when you finally pulled the trigger yes they definitely were um and they didn't believe

01:06:39.240 me because i just been saying it for three years you know right um but finally we did it and i had

01:06:44.600 a chance to preach there one last time and i'm sure we'll be back up for like you know picnics

01:06:48.960 or things like that because they're a solid group of people it was it was a really kind of a bittersweet

01:06:54.040 thing for us to be honest but you know had to happen well enjoy this church for you know six

01:06:58.520 months or so until you move down here and uh join the bible church well god bless man all right later

01:07:05.340 take care

The NXR Podcast - November 25, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - The Type Of Church That Will Last with @ADRobles - ICYMI

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