The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - Understanding The Divine Counsel And The Nephilim with Doug Van Dorn

00:00:00.000 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin,

00:00:04.160 with Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to the show

00:00:08.420 for the very first time, Pastor Doug Van Dorn. Pastor Doug Van Dorn is a Reformed Baptist pastor.

00:00:15.520 He holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, just like I do. We've got a lot in common,

00:00:21.140 but one of the things we have in common is not just the 1689, our Reformed theology, but

00:00:25.620 our fascination, interest, some might call it an obsession, with giants and the Nephilim

00:00:33.540 and fallen angels and these kinds of high strangeness things. And so that's what we're

00:00:38.400 going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about it from a covenantal perspective,

00:00:43.020 a spiritual perspective, a reformed perspective. There's not a lot of guys who necessarily are

00:00:48.120 within the reformed world who have these views. A lot of them tend to be dispensational. A lot

00:00:53.340 of them tend to be pre-millennial, and Doug Van Dorn is neither of those things. So we're going

00:00:57.760 to be talking about Jesus, the giant slayer, slaying giants in the truest, spiritual, and

00:01:04.220 ultimate sense, and what all that means from Adam to David to Christ, what that looks like for you

00:01:12.040 and I today. Tune in now. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:23.340 All right. Well, let's talk a little bit about Heiser and some of his conception and some of

00:01:30.540 the work that you've done working off of that with this divine council. Can you explain that

00:01:37.620 to our listeners? What's the divine council and where do we find it in scripture?

00:01:41.840 Really, the main focus of his book is to talk about the divine council. Like I said,

00:01:46.480 the Nephilim, the angel of the Lord, these are subtopics underneath it. So the divine council 0.99

00:01:52.000 is essentially the idea that there's a group of um celestial heavenly beings that rule over the

00:01:58.080 affairs of the cosmos and um if you want an analogy from greek mythology think about the olympians

00:02:05.800 now the problem is of course as soon as i say mythology people especially in our world they

00:02:12.020 start to go crazy because they hear the word myth and they think fake fiction lies all this kind of

00:02:19.600 stuff and my understanding of mythology has changed dramatically i think c.s lewis has been

00:02:25.720 very helpful to me to to understand this in some ways tolkien as well both these guys were just

00:02:31.160 incredibly steeped well-versed in uh a ton of mythology yeah um you don't know if you know it

00:02:39.980 but tolkien gets a bunch of his names for the dwarves from the uh poetic eda in the the

00:02:46.800 scandinavian myth so that's just kind of an example of they're they're taking these stories

00:02:51.940 and they're just kind of reapplying them but but uh my understanding of a myth is that it's really

00:02:57.940 just an origin story it can be either true or false it can have over over the course of time

00:03:04.800 you can have changes in it so you can have contradictions in greek mythology because

00:03:09.380 they've changed the stories or they've heard them differently or whatever the case might be i mean

00:03:12.900 these things are so old, they go back before any kind of written history. And they're a vehicle

00:03:19.880 that can stand the test of time that can help people understand where their origins are from.

00:03:27.220 So that's why Heiser's original title for his book, The Unseen Realm, was actually the myth

00:03:33.820 that is true. He's trying to convey the idea that the biblical story is a myth in that it's an

00:03:40.360 origin story and it's got, it's got mythological, um, ways that it's working on our psyche when we 1.00

00:03:47.640 read it, but it's true. It's actually history. Um, I think that probably, you know, I actually

00:03:54.060 believe fairly strongly that Zeus was a real character and his name is actually in the Bible

00:03:59.280 as either Satan or Baal, depending on the Testament that you're in. I think that those

00:04:02.960 are all the same entity. When somebody hears that, they freak out because they've been taught

00:04:08.780 that, you know, mythology is false. There's nothing true about it. How could you possibly

00:04:14.560 say that Zeus is real? But as soon as I say, well, he's actually Satan, he's actually Baal. 0.52

00:04:20.500 Now, Baal might bother some people because they might not think he's real either. He's just an 0.68

00:04:24.780 idol. Well, that's not true. But it's funny because none of our people in the Reformed

00:04:29.240 world would say that Satan is anything other than a real supernatural fallen entity. They

00:04:34.520 understand that so to make that connection and i think that you can make pretty strong biblical

00:04:39.340 case a biblical case for it that these are all the same entity uh it really discombobulates a

00:04:46.640 lot of people so yeah the mythology things get twisted and turned um but when you find certain

00:04:53.880 myths especially when you find universal myths like like every flood like the flood yeah then

00:04:59.980 then you're probably you know maybe some of the details like you take it with a grain of salt put

00:05:04.220 your discernment hat on you know don't be naive but uh but if you start finding the same story

00:05:09.560 um in every place and every time period and every like then there's probably something true there

00:05:15.340 and so the idea of like giants is uh you know it's just a universal whether it's jack and the

00:05:21.800 beanstalk or you know but like giants and one element of giants that you find universally is

00:05:27.160 that they're um they're typically not friendly giants you know and i know and i know like an

00:05:33.720 interpretation can be made and i'm partial to it with abraham you know and sure um and a couple

00:05:38.740 you know but for the most part they're like uh they're man-eating giants yeah you know and then

00:05:43.600 what is cyclops i mean think about that it's like okay it's just a complete made-up story or like

00:05:48.720 maybe a giant that was injured and left on an island you know it only has one eye because the

00:05:54.540 other one was poked at like i mean it's entirely possible so anyways yeah so uh the giants you know

00:06:01.880 in the divine council worldview a giant is essentially um it's a nephilim so that's a

00:06:08.840 genesis 6 and it's a son of what are called sons of god and in our we'll just for sake of argument

00:06:15.360 we won't go through the this tonight you know arguing for why why we would believe textually

00:06:20.060 that this is the case, but I can give you one and give you a lot, but they're the sons of the sons

00:06:25.620 of God and the sons of God have different titles in scripture. And one of them is a watcher. You

00:06:32.280 only find this word explicitly or certainly in Daniel four, but when Nebuchadnezzar has a dream,

00:06:40.120 the watchers come down out of heaven and say that it has been decreed upon you, Nebuchadnezzar,

00:06:46.160 that you're going to live like a wild animal or whatever that decree of the watchers is a decree

00:06:51.740 from the divine council so these these watchers um other people might be more comfortable just

00:06:57.720 calling them fallen angels uh over time the the term angel actually became it changed it morphed

00:07:06.160 like just like any word really does in the in the early part of the old testament and angel is really

00:07:12.640 just a messenger. So it's a function. By the time you get to the New Testament, an angel really

00:07:17.400 almost becomes an ontological category. It's, you know, it's a type of being. So when people get

00:07:24.580 upset, you know, with certain words that you could use for these guys, I'll just say, well, it's a

00:07:29.380 fallen angel. And then that kind of takes it off the table. Probably the biggest word for these

00:07:34.380 guys in the Hebrew is the word Elohim. They're called the Elohim. This is a word that's used

00:07:39.980 for god and it's used for the gods and again um people will say well the gods aren't real

00:07:45.760 but if you understand that the gods are actually fallen angels they're created entities

00:07:52.140 they're not on any kind of an ontological par with the uncreated creator of the universe

00:07:59.600 he made them right if you can get that into your head right then you realize you have to understand

00:08:05.520 we're not talking about equals there's not at all one one god who is uh eternal infinite and

00:08:11.620 who created x in the helo uh he made these other gods he made them all and in fact colossians

00:08:17.340 says that jesus is the one who made them all and it it goes very very specifically that he made

00:08:22.440 everything in heaven and on earth why would it go why would it care to tell you that what he made

00:08:27.880 in heaven well maybe so that you don't get confused about these guys somehow being equals with him

00:08:34.220 because they're not ontologically equal with him at all right right so uh yeah so that's what

00:08:41.320 that's what the divine council is this found all over the place um some of the best known passages

00:08:46.940 at the end of i think it's first kings 22 it's a really good one this is where you have uh the

00:08:53.820 prophet micaiah hears uh overhears or sees in a vision this heavenly scene where um god is having

00:09:03.180 this argument with these other heavenly beings over what they should do with King Ahab, I think

00:09:07.100 it is. And he says, who's going to go and be a lying spirit? And they have a fight over it. And

00:09:11.020 finally, one spirit says, I'll do it. So God says, okay, go ahead. You will succeed in doing it.

00:09:15.780 What they're doing is they're having a council meeting in heaven. They're arguing about things

00:09:20.440 over the earth. And then once the decision is made, then they go out and do it. And God has

00:09:25.140 the final say on it. You see this in, what's another good one? Daniel chapter seven. This is

00:09:32.600 where the really famous verse that new testament uses quite a bit that one like a son of man comes

00:09:38.500 riding on the clouds of heaven to the ancient of days and he's presented a kingdom and all

00:09:44.520 dominion authorities given to him well right before that you have um this it gives you a

00:09:50.140 description of the heavenly court it talks about the throne it talks about the ancient of days it

00:09:55.040 talks about a river being there and it talks about the thrones that are around it and the books are

00:10:01.060 opened well what's that who are on these thrones it's the heavenly beings it's the divine council

00:10:06.300 we i mean boy there's just a there's just a ton of them that we could think of

00:10:13.180 would you hold would you hold all the way like another example for you would you be

00:10:17.700 one of the guys who would say that like genesis one and two in the creation narrative um like

00:10:23.700 let us make man in our image that that's trinitarian language or that's divine council

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00:11:12.060 My answer is yes to that. I won't create an either or. The reason why is because

00:11:17.600 the Father and Son are certainly on the divine council. And the Holy Spirit's always present

00:11:24.760 when the sun is present so de facto the trinity is there but it's bigger than the trinity if i

00:11:30.600 was going to go to prove the trinity from genesis 1 which i think you can do very easily i'd go to

00:11:35.260 the first three verses i wouldn't even i wouldn't even make it all the way to chapter or verse 22

00:11:39.860 or whatever that is 26 um because if god you have the spirit hovering and then you have god

00:11:45.740 spoke the word and very clearly the new testament tells us who that word is right so but yeah i

00:11:53.060 would say that the let us make man in our image is the divine counsel having a meeting. So that's

00:11:59.700 the first verse. But then the second verse, it says, and God made man in his image. So the way

00:12:05.060 Heiser talks about it is that it's like if we all, if I said to a group of people, hey, let's all go

00:12:09.940 out for pizza. I'm speaking to a group of people, but then I buy, okay? I'm the one who does the

00:12:17.020 does the work right so so talk to me a little bit about and to our listener about um the idea

00:12:23.660 so something that fascinates me that i i would love to learn more about is the idea of regional

00:12:28.160 powers like thinking of you know the um it's the archangel michael right it's not gabriel it's

00:12:33.660 michael who gets held up with the prince of persia no it's actually gabriel it's oh it's gabriel okay

00:12:38.480 so it's gabriel um he's like sorry i was i'd be here sooner but uh you know i had to do battle

00:12:43.260 You know, against, you know, this power that had a locale, it seems like, an earthly locale, like in a particular principality.

00:12:52.300 And that word principality, so there's princes and principalities.

00:12:55.200 Like princes would be spiritual beings with authority.

00:12:59.300 And then the principality would be like a province or a state or a region.

00:13:04.140 So my question is, when the fall happened, and not talking about Adam and Eve, but the angelic fall,

00:13:13.260 angels fell, they fell somewhere, they fell to earth. And it seems as though there's maybe a

00:13:18.820 case to be made that they were assigned, or maybe they were already assigned by God and then fell

00:13:23.920 to their various regions. Or did they fall and then a captain among them, Lucifer, appointed,

00:13:32.200 you're going to be over Chile, you're going to be over Persia. How does that work, this princes 0.63

00:13:37.800 and principalities okay so the the key text there is really deuteronomy 32 it's that it's the paper

00:13:44.320 that i talked about earlier it's this variant um and let me let me just call it up real quick so

00:13:50.560 that we can read the text and so uh deuteronomy 32 we'll start in verse 7 this is the song of

00:14:01.920 Moses. He says, remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations, ask your father and

00:14:08.200 he will show you your elders and they will tell you when the most high gave to the nations their

00:14:14.240 inheritance. When he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of

00:14:19.340 the sons of God. The textual variant there says sons of Israel. Some people might have a New

00:14:24.620 American Standard Bible will say sons of Israel, but Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint say sons of

00:14:29.500 God, and Heiser makes a very good argument that that's the original reading. The number of the

00:14:35.260 sons of God there was understood throughout all the tradition as the number 70. So you can read

00:14:42.320 in the Targum. Targum is a Jewish paraphrase into Aramaic of the Old Testament. So some of them can 0.63

00:14:50.080 be very, very strict and very close to the text, almost like just a really good translation that

00:14:56.740 we have, and then others can be more expansive. And one of the more expansive ones in Genesis

00:15:03.660 through Deuteronomy is Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, and it gives the number 70 there as a good example.

00:15:09.700 Well, why is that significant? Because there were 70 nations at the Tower of Babel. So when Moses

00:15:14.920 tells you to remember the days of old, he's telling you to remember Tower of Babel. Now for him, that 0.77

00:15:20.340 was a long, long time ago, and Moses for us was a long, long time ago. So this is a really long

00:15:25.540 time ago, but according to that text anyway, and it's really the main one that we have

00:15:31.080 of the timing of it, the sons of God were given to the nations at the Tower of Babel.

00:15:38.260 And it seems to me that it's because what happened was that, and we were talking earlier

00:15:44.500 before the show about the divine incursion view of how did the Nephilim get on the earth

00:15:50.240 after the flood.

00:15:51.300 There's four or five different views out there.

00:15:53.700 one is that you know the dna was carried through by maybe one of noah's sons another one is that

00:15:59.400 it wasn't a worldwide flood another one is that and so some of the giants lived through it another

00:16:04.940 one is that um maybe somebody like aug the giant lived uh by uh hitching right on noah's ark and

00:16:12.800 that's kind of a gilgamesh hanging on to the side of the ark and noah's feeding him i've seen that

00:16:17.960 one not not a fan but it's when you tell the kids when they're three years old right yeah yeah

00:16:23.520 And then, you know, I actually tend to think that your view is right, that there was another incursion.

00:16:29.460 And I think that that incursion took place at the Tower of Babel.

00:16:32.940 So you have to understand what the Tower of Babel was.

00:16:37.000 So in order to understand it, you have to go back to Genesis 2 and 3.

00:16:42.160 So and then a little bit of Ezekiel can help fill in the gaps there, too, because Ezekiel calls Eden the mountain of God.

00:16:49.740 All we get in Genesis of Eden is that it's a garden, right?

00:16:52.760 but it's a mountain. And why does that matter? Because Satan is there in the mountain garden

00:17:00.420 of Eden, tempting our parents. Well, what's he doing there? He's there because it's a divine

00:17:05.800 council scene. Consider it Mount Olympus. They're on Mount Olympus. God has created our first

00:17:14.080 parents to essentially have a seat on the divine council with the heavenly beings, but they get to

00:17:19.880 rule over the earth whereas the heavenly beings are ruling over whatever whatever's outside the

00:17:25.840 earth however that works i don't have any idea and actually and this is the only this is the

00:17:31.060 only thing i've ever read that makes a lot of sense of why satan tempted them and it's because

00:17:36.280 he became jealous of this and so you have whole books like the life of adam and eve in the

00:17:41.420 pseudepigrapha that talk about that was at that moment that god made adam and he gave him this

00:17:47.560 dominion that that was actually that was the reason why satan fell so that okay so the fall

00:17:53.440 of satan and the fall of adam in in this scheme would be very simultaneous to one one yeah two

00:18:00.280 birds one stone yeah okay that's exactly right so okay um so the whole point being there that

00:18:07.700 that they're on they're in the divine council in fact i think you got actually you can make a case

00:18:12.840 that there's more beings there because Ezekiel, I forget the chapter, maybe 31. It's the chapter

00:18:21.080 of Assyria being likened to a giant tree, a world tree. And then it talks about how the trees of

00:18:26.960 Eden were envious of you. Well, why would it use trees of Eden language? Well, it's kind of a

00:18:33.460 metaphor for other heavenly beings. And when Adam and Eve go hiding among the trees of Eden,

00:18:39.260 like what is what's going on there i tend to think that they're seeking refuge among the gods if you

00:18:45.760 want to call it that um and god gets very upset by this why are you running away from me what did i

00:18:52.100 ever do to you and then he graciously closed them with you know and gives them the gospel and stuff

00:18:56.520 but the point is there's a divine council scene it's a mountain the the authority is given there

00:19:02.420 and actually even the temptation itself believe it or not is when you look at what the tree of

00:19:09.000 the knowledge of good and evil is. And you go to, say, Solomon, and he talks about how it's the

00:19:15.020 duty of a king to discern good and evil. Well, what does that mean? It means that it's the king's

00:19:21.260 job to make a judicial pronouncement on right and wrong. Well, that's what divine counsel does.

00:19:29.060 And that's the whole point of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan's temptation

00:19:33.260 was incredibly subtle, and he actually tempted them with something that was very true.

00:19:38.360 But the problem is that, well, there's a lot of problems with what happened.

00:19:42.760 But, of course, essentially is that they made the wrong decision, right?

00:19:46.160 They went against what God said was right.

00:19:48.960 They said, essentially, by eating it, they're making a judicial pronouncement that what God said is wrong.

00:19:55.920 Right.

00:19:56.380 Okay.

00:19:56.720 And so then they get kicked off.

00:19:58.700 Now, if Moses is, if we just take that verse in Deuteronomy, then what happens is that the, whatever happened before the flood and how that worked its way out with, you know, the fallen angels and men and authority and all, I don't have, I don't know.

00:20:16.460 And I don't know that we really can know, but at Tower of Babel, it's really a, it's

00:20:21.980 really a trying to get back to Eden.

00:20:24.240 But instead of God putting us on his made man-made mountain, we create a mountain ourselves.

00:20:31.160 It's a ziggurat.

00:20:32.420 That's the whole point of the thing.

00:20:33.600 It's to emulate what a cosmic mountain is, what a divine council mountain is.

00:20:39.000 And then we go up to the top and we try to make communication with the fallen heavenly

00:20:44.920 beings. And God said, that's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Let's disperse you and

00:20:50.880 make your language so you can't understand each other so that you can't do this. And that's the 0.99

00:20:56.460 moment, it seems, that Moses is saying, remember this because that's the moment when I spread the

00:21:02.260 nations out around the world that I also gave each one of those nations one of the sons of God to

00:21:07.840 roll over them okay are these fallen sons of god to rule over them or righteous i think so

00:21:15.820 so there's actually a really interesting passage in the uh i think it's in the creteus in plato

00:21:22.840 near the end this is this is where actually where he writes about atlantis and man it's so weird

00:21:28.820 because he has a line that's almost exactly word for word what moses says in deuteronomy 32 7

00:21:35.080 In the days of old, God gave to the nations according to their allotment.

00:21:41.100 That's what he says.

00:21:43.060 And then he goes, we got as Greece, we got Athena and Hephaestus because they were the gods that were given to philosophy and beautiful music and basically high culture.

00:21:55.960 And, of course, Plato has this idea that before the flood, there was a golden age and that things were really good.

00:22:01.620 And then things got worse and worse and worse over time to the point where Atlantis was destroyed because of the corruption.

00:22:07.900 In some ways, that's very similar.

00:22:10.160 And so I use that to answer your question, Joel, because I think I think that the corruption of the angels got worse over time.

00:22:20.040 Huh. OK.

00:22:21.300 Just like it does with humanity, even just like it does in our civilization right now.

00:22:25.400 The last three years are the worst that it's been in our civilization since the beginning

00:22:30.240 of it.

00:22:30.800 It's just gone exponentially off the charts.

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00:24:03.460 That's really interesting.

00:24:04.960 I think Plato might have, I think he might have read Moses.

00:24:09.780 I know that it doesn't add up, but I've got some people in my church who,

00:24:13.580 they're more knowledgeable than I am on the subject of, you know, but like, look, you know,

00:24:18.500 it seems like, I don't know, it seems like he had somehow had access to Moses, the Pentateuch.

00:24:27.560 or at least a part of it so i i uh when i was doing the angel the lord book i uh i found a

00:24:33.900 couple of puritans that wrote on the angel and i started reading them got one of these guys name

00:24:40.100 is peter alex he lived in the late 17 1700s a french guy but this dude knew i mean he knew

00:24:47.380 every language you could know he he read everything you could read just absolute genius

00:24:53.220 And he he says in that book that I ended up kind of republishing and putting notes on it and modernizing English and stuff for people.

00:25:01.720 He says there that Moses knew or sorry, Plato knew about Moses.

00:25:08.000 And then he I think he cites Justin Martyr, who basically said the same thing.

00:25:12.360 So the idea seems to be that you can account for it through his ancestor Solon, who came down to Egypt.

00:25:18.640 Right. And that's where he heard the story of Atlantis from the priest there.

00:25:21.960 and then it's not that he's taking a boat back to greece he decides to take the long way around

00:25:27.260 and of course in order to do that you have to go right through israel and so there's every reason

00:25:32.460 in the world why he could have brought back um at least the torah and plato could very well have

00:25:39.540 read it yep that's that's i couldn't remember but that's what i heard was yep yeah it was through um

00:25:45.000 how do you say his name solon solon yeah yeah solon his ancestor so long went to egypt that's

00:25:50.340 we heard about atlantis and yeah yeah it's possible it's a wild world yeah okay so yeah

00:25:59.220 so one so we're saying fallen angels 70 of them and you think it's a symbolic number

00:26:06.000 so it's not yeah yeah that's what that's yeah so like 70 regions 70 nations um and it but it could

00:26:14.040 be 500 each for each of these 70, right?

00:26:19.100 Yeah, you can have underlings that are underneath them.

00:26:21.160 And maybe a chief guy and under, yeah, that's what it's, yeah.

00:26:22.560 Why would the heavenly bureaucracy be any less complicated than earthly bureaucracy?

00:26:29.160 Right.

00:26:29.660 Well, maybe because they're trying to be more efficient.

00:26:31.440 Maybe because they want a bureaucracy that works.

00:26:37.520 But yeah.

00:26:38.720 But yeah, okay, so 70 regions, nations.

00:26:41.980 and we would say that that still exists today we have more than 70 nations but

00:26:46.500 there's there's still in in a spiritual plane would you agree that there's there's still a

00:26:52.420 sense in which um the world would break up into those 70 different regions and there's still a

00:26:58.900 great question it's and some of them like jude or peter may have already been locked up in gloomy

00:27:03.760 dungeons but some of them may still well okay so the gloomy dungeon part is talking about before

00:27:09.420 the flood. So if you want to think about, you can think about it this way. I found it helpful. I

00:27:16.100 don't know if it's right to do this or not, but when you go to the Greek myths, they have a flood

00:27:22.860 and at the flood, they have a great war between the Titans and the Olympians. The Titans are the

00:27:29.420 elder gods, you know, Kronos and Rhea and these 12 Titans, 12 interesting number. And then the

00:27:36.360 olympians with zeus and and was a hera and and the other 12 olympians again you have that same

00:27:42.620 number and the olympians basically lock the titans up into taurus it's exactly the thing if you've

00:27:48.920 seen clash of the titans the remake first i think it's the first with liam neeson second the one

00:27:54.280 with liam neeson yeah yeah it's probably the second movie where they're actually let out of

00:27:58.040 there release the kraken yeah so it's the second movie because that's the first movie the crack

00:28:02.280 yeah that's what we're talking about and um so that's what that's what peter and judah referring

00:28:10.200 to is the pre-flood lockup of the pre the pre-flood antediluvian watchers that committed

00:28:17.760 the original sin of the nephilim thing those guys were locked up and you find this in the book of

00:28:24.380 enoch that kind of expands on that and you know they're they're actually locked up for 70 generations

00:28:30.360 which is a whole nother topic but um when when you're talking about the post-flood

00:28:35.480 i think that that that's a different story these were in my mind we're dealing with the olympians

00:28:42.320 not the titans it's the olympians who were somehow put over the nations of the world because titan

00:28:47.640 titans are gone at least for a while i see okay so the pre-flood guys they're the ones who 0.53

00:28:53.500 created the demonic hybrid offspring nephilim and and they got punished severely right for

00:29:01.320 locked up in tartarus um and then uh and then it's you have a different group still fallen angels 0.78

00:29:10.240 but a little bit more hinged guys who at least at least had the good sense not to try to corrupt

00:29:16.960 the messianic line by you know marrying human wives and those guys are the ones who are appointed

00:29:24.200 at babel over 70 right okay and then those get well if that's the case then it's possible we

00:29:31.160 don't know you know but it's possible that those guys might still be in some level of operation

00:29:36.900 today yeah i have a do you know brian godawa is no so brian is a hollywood um film writer

00:29:45.780 he's written a couple of movies but good reformed guy he's a he's a partial preterist

00:29:52.300 takes 70 a.d fall of jerusalem really seriously he he takes the view that the watchers were kind of

00:29:57.860 done in 70 a.d that that was actually a judgment upon them so i can't say definitively that they're

00:30:04.780 gone my view is that or that they're that they're not gone or that they are gone my view is that

00:30:09.420 they're that they that he's wrong about that that it was kind of an already not yet judgment

00:30:14.500 for them. And I think 70 A.D. probably had something to do with a lessening of their power.

00:30:23.720 But I think Pentecost had much more of a lessening of their power than 70 A.D. did.

00:30:28.720 And clearly between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D., these watchers, these powers, principalities,

00:30:36.020 thrones, dominions, all these words that Paul throws around that we didn't even know what we're

00:30:40.480 What is this? Well, that's what this is. And it's very clear that they're around, at least in those 40 years. And my view is that they are still around and that what has happened, and this is my all-millennialism coming out, but I believe that the power of Satan to deceive the nations is really what the binding of Satan is all about in Revelation 20.

00:31:07.860 So in other words, they're not in the full force of their power that they were prior to the cross and the resurrection and Pentecost, but they still do have power.

00:31:17.660 And so I can say I have a way of understanding that Satan can prowl around like a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy at the same time that I can say that he's bound because I don't view that bound as an absolute binding like a premillennialist would.

00:31:34.280 i view it as as a very specific kind of binding so that god if he wants to save his elect out of

00:31:40.720 any nation uh he can do that without them having to become israelites be circumcised move down

00:31:46.540 to the line of canaan and all that kind of stuff right yeah he's on a leash and he was always on

00:31:51.900 a leash in the sense that you know the the satan you know um is with the sons of god is before the

00:31:57.680 throne of god joe you know and even then he has to ask you know permission and god sets very clear

00:32:03.140 boundaries you can do this and that and then you know it comes back all right round two you can

00:32:07.340 hurt you know pound for pound flesh for flesh you can hurt his flesh but you can't take his life

00:32:11.080 so satan has always been on the leash because every created creature um ultimately because god

00:32:16.560 is sovereign god is the only being in the universe that has what we would call you know autonomous

00:32:22.280 libertarian freedom we have you know creatures have a degree of freedom but god is the only

00:32:28.840 one who is truly autonomously free and so satan always was on a leash is my this is my view it

00:32:34.020 was always on a leash and job you know shows us that um but in the cross and resurrection uh it's

00:32:41.000 like christ you know who's always been holding that leash wrapped it around his head yeah and

00:32:46.220 pulled him in a bit like so the leash got shorter yeah that's exactly right he's still not thrown

00:32:50.340 into the lake of fire that will come later um uh so satan's still prowling around uh but he was

00:32:56.400 he had more walking around room. He had a little more slack in the leash pre-Christ.

00:33:03.080 But for me, I would put most of the happenings of binding Satan, the strong man like Christ even

00:33:12.800 gives that parable. You're going to plunder the house. And I think that's what we're doing. That's

00:33:15.600 the New Testament church for 2,000 years has been plundering the house of this world through 1.00

00:33:21.980 conversion and gospel preaching. And I think even beyond just conversion and the Great Commission 0.99

00:33:25.940 in that regard, but teaching the nations to obey all of Christ's commands in markets and in art

00:33:32.480 and in governments and in all these different things. And through righteous legislation,

00:33:36.440 this is kind of, all of that has been happening because the strong man has been bound. And now,

00:33:42.180 you know, we're going in and plundering the house. And with a strong man, I think, you know,

00:33:45.880 a certain bind, I think that implies some of, you know, Satan's minions also being in various

00:33:51.900 degrees bound. And then for me, 80-70, I've never thought of it before. I'd have to give it more

00:33:59.600 thought, but I've never thought of demonic binding in 80-70. I've always put that on

00:34:04.000 cross and resurrection. And then 80-70, I put that as a post-mill guy, I put that as the

00:34:10.360 fulfillment of Christ's prophecy. Matthew 24, all of that discourse, this generation will not pass

00:34:15.440 with just this type of generation, but 40 years, a generation in Jewish terms, you guys, some of

00:34:21.660 you will fall asleep, but a lot of you are going to be awake. And this is the generation that

00:34:26.120 rejected me. I came to my own, but they knew me not. You said, crucify him. May his blood be on

00:34:32.760 us and our children. And so before your eyes and your children's eyes, I'm going to come back and

00:34:39.040 come in on the clouds, Joel 2, clouds signifying a sense of judgment. And Josephus even has multiple

00:34:45.920 I witnessed accounts of seeing like, you know, like silhouettes of chariots going back in the billows of smoke in 87.

00:34:53.240 So that's, that's, I think 80, 70 was this, the wrapping up of a garment that the interim 40 year period between, you know, the work of Christ.

00:35:01.720 And, but then now the old covenant is really rolled up and completely done and gone away.

00:35:06.860 Yeah, I agree with that.

00:35:08.120 Yeah, that's, that's where I'm at.

00:35:10.220 But I think the binding of the demonic powers, a lot of that may, I may be 87.

00:35:14.820 i just but i don't know what about the the sacking of the temple in jerusalem i think he's getting

00:35:21.080 that really from the demons he's getting that probably from like gentry's view of revelation

00:35:26.220 who's going to come out one of these decades with his magnum opus on revelation is commentary that's

00:35:32.340 supposed to be so good from a post-mill view yeah i've heard the tales yeah i know we everybody

00:35:37.800 he keeps hearing him um but it's the idea that when you take that early writing date of revelation

00:35:45.500 being prior to 70 ad then now all of a sudden it allows you to be able to see that almost all of

00:35:50.960 the book has been fulfilled and so if you do that then you kind of have to start going well

00:35:54.520 did 78 d do something to to these watchers because you're you're reading revelation different than

00:36:01.520 like a futurist you know right would do so or yeah historists or futurists yeah yeah well and

00:36:08.960 and i mean and i do yeah i date revelation i think it's you know was written moments before

00:36:14.800 87 i think you know these things soon to come to pass 80 80 i would put it 80 65 to 80 69 you know

00:36:21.440 something right in there but um but it's painted even the way that i read other books of the bible

00:36:26.600 now like you know like romans you know and um and some of the things that paul talks about you know

00:36:33.200 with uh future revival of israel not being in their future but perhaps in our past and that's

00:36:38.500 all that's a whole nother conversation but anyway so back to the you know seven so 70 regions and

00:36:43.720 70 honchos and they could each have dozens or hundreds of thousands of minions under them

00:36:48.820 and for what for what purpose god is so god assigns him it's as it's as punishment it's it's a it's

00:36:58.540 punitive it's essentially okay explain so there's there's several different passages in deuteronomy

00:37:03.540 that talk about this there's one in deuteronomy 4 one in deuteronomy 17 one in chapter 29 and then

00:37:09.660 the one in chapter 32 that basically talks about some of them talk about how i gave them to you

00:37:17.640 and then some of them talk about how basically i gave you to them and why well it's because you

00:37:24.480 you guys essentially it's you you deserve each other so bad i'm gonna let you just have each

00:37:30.200 other and see how well that goes for you okay all right okay so so it's punitive like babysitting

00:37:36.000 like you're you're stuck with these people yeah i mean if adam was originally given dominion

00:37:40.580 and then he i think what happens is he abdicates that dominion again i don't know i don't know

00:37:46.580 how it worked prior to the flood. But however it comes to fulfillment, it's called an inheritance

00:37:56.220 for the sons of God. So somehow they're actually inheriting because their sons, sons are inheriting

00:38:01.380 things from their fathers. And so this becomes the inheritance. And I actually, I think that

00:38:08.360 the reason why God ultimately does, it's not just purely punitive. That's the myopic view or the

00:38:14.780 view of just why does he do it for in relation to the people or these fallen entities that's

00:38:20.780 punitive but there's a much bigger storyline that's going on if you uh if you read the very

00:38:25.640 next verse it says but the lord's portion is his people and jacob is his allotted inheritance

00:38:35.340 now this is a really crazy verse because because it it uses um the word yahweh yahweh's portion

00:38:43.880 is his people, but it's his allotment. And so there has to be a distinguishing

00:38:51.960 mark between the most high in verse eight and Yahweh in verse nine. And my understanding of

00:39:02.420 it is that the most high, to put it in Trinitarian terms, is the father who's giving this inheritance

00:39:09.780 to his sons. And the Lord, the Yahweh in this particular verse has to be the son

00:39:16.980 who is inheriting Israel as his allotment. And what's so interesting, of course, is that Israel 0.57

00:39:25.600 is not actually among the 70 nations at the Tower of Babel. God creates them out of nothing

00:39:30.840 many, many, even centuries later. Because the whole point of this is that the son of God is

00:39:38.860 going to at first get this miraculous nation that God creates out of nothing, it's going to come

00:39:47.040 through the promise of the impossible promise of the seed of Isaac through the natural birth

00:39:55.720 that comes from a woman who can't give birth and a man who's almost 100 years old. And then the 0.97

00:40:04.340 promise then expands so that you come to Psalm two, for example, this is really kind of the way

00:40:11.880 I just, I give people kind of a, a three passage rundown of, of really the worldview. The first

00:40:18.900 one is verse nine, that the, that the son is inheriting Israel. Then if you go to this,

00:40:22.480 one of the most famous passages in the old Testament about Christ, Psalm two, seven and

00:40:28.180 eight, I will tell of the decree. The Lord said to me, you are my son. Okay. So here we have more

00:40:33.920 Father, Son stuff. Today I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance

00:40:40.880 and the ends of the earth your possession. Okay, so now the promise has been given that it's not

00:40:47.340 just going to stop with Israel. I'm going to give it to, I'm going to give you all the nations. And

00:40:51.780 then you go to the great divine counsel psalm, Psalm 82, that starts off, God has taken his

00:40:59.640 place in the divine council in the midst of the gods he holds judgment next few verses are about

00:41:05.400 how they judged wickedly then he says i'm going to punish you you're going to die like men and

00:41:12.200 then the last verse arise oh god judge the earth for you shall inherit all the nations who's the

00:41:19.940 god of that verse it has to be the son because that's what the promise was in psalm 2 and so

00:41:24.380 the new testament comes into this and it takes it takes all of this predictive language of the son

00:41:31.280 of god now becoming you know and daniel 7 gets fit into that i'm gonna give you the kingdoms of

00:41:36.300 the world and all this kind of stuff and then what happens you know when jesus rise from the dead and

00:41:41.020 his very last words to the disciples like in matthew uh 28 all authority has been given to me

00:41:48.860 in heaven, on earth. Now go and make disciples of all nations. What's going on there is that

00:41:54.260 Jesus is now receiving his inheritance and it's up to the church to kind of start bringing the

00:42:00.100 people in. But the whole point of this worldview is that it's not an into itself. It's that Jesus

00:42:08.160 is the focal point of the whole thing. So, you know, you brought up Michael earlier and

00:42:13.800 in our book on the angel of the Lord, Matt and I disagreed on this. And we still do,

00:42:19.160 although I'm moving him more in my direction. But I believe that Michael is the angel of the Lord

00:42:25.320 because he's called Israel's prince. And unless Israel has two princes over him,

00:42:31.780 which is theoretically possible because Plato said that they had two, but it's not what I

00:42:37.760 ordinarily think if michael is israel's prince then he would be the angel of the lord and um

00:42:45.920 that fits totally with this worldview okay and so you don't you don't hold to the christophany

00:42:53.340 which is you know the view that i'm familiar with that like the angel of the lord you know so like

00:42:59.320 three angels appearing to abraham one of them being the angel of the lord that one is christ

00:43:03.920 pre-incarnate no i do i do believe that it's christ pre-incarnate yes but i believe that

00:43:09.980 he's the angel of the lord and that that's the same that's the same second person of the trinity

00:43:15.320 that who is the angel of the lord that the angel of the lord is the second person of the trinity

00:43:21.420 jesus but then what where does michael come into play he that's a proper name for him he's just a

00:43:27.200 different name so if just like angel of the lord or lord yahweh or name or glory or right hand

00:43:37.100 um or uh you know word the word of god in john 1 1 these are all just different ways of speaking

00:43:45.820 about who this person is and i think michael's the same way it's a proper name who is like god

00:43:50.220 that's all that it is and the answer is no one is like god right but why michael that i mean that's

00:43:56.200 that's the only thing i'm following you until that like why why would michael be a proper name

00:44:00.960 for the second member of the trinity you know like i why not just call him yeshua as he's been called

00:44:08.460 you know like i i've just always imagined michael as because i mean frankly it's like it gets a

00:44:15.100 little close to what what is it uh mormonism or jehovah's witness where they you know they believe

00:44:19.020 that jesus is the archangel michael you know and that he's a created being and he's not actually

00:44:24.260 a member of the trinity right yeah so i i think that the jehovah's witnesses are they're right

00:44:30.160 and they're wrong the jehovah's witnesses in my view are right that jesus and michael are the

00:44:36.320 same thing but they're wrong because they make jesus a created being right and he's not a created

00:44:41.980 being so why would they use the phrase i think there's some early antecedents to this and probably

00:44:48.180 the biggest one is in Exodus 15. This is the other song of Moses. And early in the song,

00:44:55.440 he's celebrating the Egyptian and the Pharaoh being thrown into the sea. And in verse 3, he says,

00:45:02.620 the Lord is a man of war. The Lord is his name. And then in verse 11, he says, who is like you,

00:45:10.440 O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing

00:45:17.000 wonders. This is not a passage that's talking about God and His oneness, His bare essence.

00:45:25.680 And it's not talking about the Father. It's talking about the Son, the Lord who is a man of war,

00:45:30.500 the commander of the armies of the Lord, the one who Joshua saw when he fell down on his knees

00:45:36.260 and the commander said, take off your sandals because the place where you're standing is holy

00:45:42.420 ground well that comes straight out of burning bush story where moses was told the very same

00:45:46.940 thing by guess who the angel of the lord so when it says who is like you among the gods it's a

00:45:53.380 all michael is is a play on that on those three english words so it is

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00:47:12.540 all right so to back up so you're saying post-flood tower of babel 70 different you know

00:47:20.500 regions principalities and 70 maybe chief fallen angels all their minions over each of these

00:47:29.380 regions but then the lord jesus second member of the trinity also referred to as michael but not

00:47:37.280 the way that jehovah's witnesses would say he is he is eternal uh sharing in the one

00:47:43.320 trying one who created these guys yeah yeah exactly um and to him was a portion not one of

00:47:49.840 70 regions right his portion came later centuries later but he was going to get a nation as well

00:47:57.140 and as the only begotten son the favored son of of the father he gets the best inheritance

00:48:04.680 it starts off small like a mustard seed with abraham but grows into this tree that ends up

00:48:11.060 filling the whole earth and and finds its ultimate fulfillment not just in the the nation of israel

00:48:16.880 but in the church and becomes an all earth encompassing tree that gives shade 0.70

00:48:23.960 to the beast and rest of the birds.

00:48:26.480 And is that,

00:48:27.680 that's what you're saying?

00:48:28.660 That's,

00:48:29.000 that's the storyline of the,

00:48:30.240 that's one of the main storylines of the old Testament.

00:48:32.760 Yep.

00:48:33.600 That's pretty cool.

00:48:34.900 It is pretty cool.

00:48:36.260 All right.

00:48:36.480 So last thing,

00:48:37.480 cause you wrote a book on giants.

00:48:38.660 I feel like we got to get there a little bit.

00:48:40.120 You know,

00:48:40.360 we've already taken some time,

00:48:41.840 but what,

00:48:42.600 how do giants come into play and what's their relevance and,

00:48:46.880 Is there a sense in which we can say Jesus is, among many things, a giant slayer?

00:48:54.140 He's Jack who climbs the beanstalk and kills the, you know, like.

00:48:57.680 Right.

00:48:58.320 So he, when I wrote the book, I wanted to make a book that was not going to focus on the second coming.

00:49:08.940 Because there were already a few sensational books out there.

00:49:12.320 And it's really the dispensationalists who have written those books.

00:49:16.880 Right. And they've really capitalized on the whole Nephilim thing last, I suppose, 10 years or so.

00:49:22.880 It's become big in those circles. And I wanted to write this as a reformed guy trying to do a biblical theology of the giants.

00:49:30.800 And I wanted to end it at the first coming. So that's what I did with the first edition is I ended at the first coming.

00:49:36.380 And the way I did that was I took the again, the universal view of the early church with regard to what an evil spirit is. 0.88

00:49:45.440 So an unclean spirit or an evil spirit in the New Testament, these are unclean because just like other things that are unclean, the mixing of different fabrics or those kinds of laws in Leviticus, that's what a Nephilim was. 0.77

00:50:02.620 It was a mixture of heaven and earth. 0.81

00:50:04.720 It was by definition unclean.

00:50:06.660 And so I think I have an appendix, or at least I have some quotes in the book about this, that it was the universal understanding of the church fathers that when Nephilim or Rephaim, whatever you want to call it, when it died, because it didn't belong to heaven or earth, it became a spirit that roamed the air, and those spirits became the demons of the New Testament.

00:50:36.660 So when Jesus is casting out demons, confronting demons, doing anything at all with demons,

00:50:43.940 he's literally continuing the battle that Moses fought against Amalek, that Joshua fought against the sons of Anak, that David fought against Goliath.

00:50:58.820 believe it or not, that Esther and Mordecai fought against Haman, because if you look at the names

00:51:04.460 and you look at the genealogy of Haman, he comes from the lineage of the Rephaim. He's carrying

00:51:11.960 out this storyline that is predicted all the way back in Genesis 3.15, that there's going to be

00:51:17.720 this seed war. And he's doing it now because in the New Testament, at least in Israel, we could

00:51:23.860 talk about whether or not there's giants of the places, but in Israel, they had all been conquered

00:51:28.440 physically but now their spirits are still lingering and tormenting and creating havoc

00:51:34.940 like crazy and so he deals with them showing his power over them in a way that no other exorcist

00:51:42.000 or anybody like that walking around it could even come close to and they're also the ones who

00:51:47.620 recognize that he is the christ nobody else does that it's the demons that do it and sometimes he

00:51:54.620 tells them to shut up and not tell anybody else um so all right let me pick your brain about this

00:51:59.560 so that's fascinating uh but with that um legion i think it's legion yeah uh is legion the one that

00:52:06.640 asked to be cast into the pigs right right so and i'm thinking also i'm going to pair that with

00:52:11.440 something else so jesus you know he says um you know he gives this explanation of what you know

00:52:16.080 when a demon is cast out it goes through arid places goes through the air waterless places

00:52:20.460 and then you know and then it's going to circle back eventually you know the houses can be swept

00:52:25.420 clean and put in order but if nothing's filled if the house remains empty then the demon will

00:52:29.620 come back and bring seven friends worse than itself and the latter state of the man will be

00:52:33.460 worse than the former right um it seems as though these disembodied spirits um one it seems as though

00:52:40.620 they they would like to be bodied right they would like to have a host because they had one before

00:52:46.640 That's what's so important about it.

00:52:48.080 They lost their body.

00:52:49.620 So, so many people confuse fallen angels as if they are demons and that's wrong.

00:52:56.900 It's biblically wrong and it's historically wrong.

00:52:59.580 And nobody believed that, uh, angels have their own bodies.

00:53:03.640 They don't seek to embody anybody because they already have a body.

00:53:06.760 Now they can certainly torment or they can insinuate or they can talk to or whatever,

00:53:12.780 but they don't possess people in the same way that an evil spirit does right so when jesus cast

00:53:22.120 he he grants this request he obliges legion cast some um you know this host of demons many demons

00:53:29.260 into the pigs and then the pigs immediately commit suicide they run yeah into the water and

00:53:35.900 and i've heard different things about that i've heard theories about well like well the nephilim

00:53:40.300 were drowned in the flood you know and that has something to do with it or um or they you know

00:53:46.260 when they're disembodied they're cast into waterless places um and so yes they had the body

00:53:51.180 of the pig but that's not a body of a person and so they use the pig to get them to the water so

00:53:56.560 it's not a water like what i i don't know what what do you think's going on there why did they

00:54:00.840 why did they cause the pigs yeah i do think that there's probably is something to the fact that

00:54:05.740 they were destroyed in the flood you know of course you're assuming that the that the demon

00:54:10.080 that legion was a pre-flood demon giant he could have been a post-flood giant so gotcha if there's

00:54:16.580 multiple incursions he could have he could have been someone that joshua right but there's something 0.91

00:54:21.080 more going on which actually with the pigs so remember a jew would never raise pigs this has 0.69

00:54:26.520 to be gentile doing this and it's in the land of bashan essentially and the pagans would offer pigs

00:54:33.760 to the gods, um, at their dolmens, which is their grave markers all around this area.

00:54:40.920 And so there's a whole bunch of weird stuff going on with the very fact that there's pigs. Like 0.96

00:54:45.340 what's that all about? Well, it's kind of a, it's kind of a sacrifice. It's a sacrificial animal

00:54:51.940 for a pagan, um, ritual. And then, so it's an, it's the whole thing is ironic really.

00:54:58.640 And it's not a satire, but I would say irony is probably the best word for it.

00:55:02.180 these guys go into the pigs which is the the the creature that would be offered to them anyway but 0.82

00:55:08.380 the pigs are alive pigs have their own minds and the pigs go out of their minds and i don't think

00:55:13.220 that the plan of the demon was that it would die i think that was i think that the the pig itself 0.99

00:55:18.680 it went so crazy because think about how mad legion was the man who was possessed by him

00:55:24.620 things went nuts and so then they ironically again jump into the sea of galilee which is called the

00:55:32.160 deep in the in in canaanite literature and it's a sim it's a symbol of chaos it's a symbol of the

00:55:41.160 home of leviathan all kinds of weird stuff going on there and the same way that like revelation

00:55:46.600 talks about that heaven there will be no sea because the sea the sea is symbolic like yes

00:55:53.300 you know this in the genesis narrative the spirit is hovering above the waters you know and uh

00:55:58.820 brooding above the waters and then you know but the sea the earth is without form and void and

00:56:03.760 and it's the sea represents chaos it represents and death you know that the sea will give up its

00:56:10.540 debt you know it's like it's um and then there's something to be said for it's not just that the um

00:56:16.540 the uh the the fact that the physics are being you know supernaturally breached but um you know

00:56:24.560 pointing towards christ and his deity but it seems like there's something symbolic to you know to

00:56:29.280 jesus walking on water tramp treading on the sea you know oh yeah 100 yeah that's a whole other

00:56:35.960 discussion i have lots of thoughts on that i'm preaching through luke right now and i think that

00:56:40.580 when jesus is on the sea that uh and you know whether it's calming the storm or or having peter

00:56:46.280 walk on the water or whatever he's doing even even with the pigs jumping into the sea there's

00:56:51.740 always satanic overtones going on because leviathan is the dragon is satan for to think

00:57:00.000 about john 12 and john 20 those are all being connected and so when jesus is doing stuff

00:57:05.680 around the sea or on the sea he's showing that he has power over the the creature who lives in the

00:57:13.480 sea which is represented by a leviathan which is therefore represents satan it's an attack

00:57:18.160 directly on satan himself okay yep going going back to the garden real quick um so the you know

00:57:26.960 the serpent um do you so do you think that when when satan is tempting eve um and it's this you

00:57:38.640 know talking serpent but a serpent with legs right because the curse is that it would then

00:57:43.080 so i don't i don't think so i don't think that's what's going on okay i was so i was going to ask

00:57:48.620 is that it seems like eve is talking to someone that she's maybe seen before yeah she's not caught

00:57:55.360 off guard but go ahead go go ahead and give me your view okay so uh the when you go to

00:58:03.120 extra testamental literature jewish literature and this is this appears in two or three places

00:58:08.800 some of the dead sea scrolls had this uh a book called i think the apocalypse of abraham has this

00:58:15.400 when they describe the watchers they describe them as serpentine in appearance

00:58:19.980 so i think that what's happening there is the serpent is actually it's a it's more than a

00:58:29.420 metaphor it's not just a metaphor uh but it's a picture of of evil in some really strange ways

00:58:36.760 uh the word nahash can mean a serpent as a noun it can mean a shining one as an adjective

00:58:43.700 and as a verb it means divination heiser says that the nahash could be a substantival adjective

00:58:51.340 there so that you could actually translate it as the shining one spoke to her and the reason i say

00:58:57.580 that is because if watchers are associated with serpents but they have humanoid appearance and i

00:59:05.640 think like i i think tend to think of in the ufo world like reptilians i don't know that they are

00:59:11.060 the watchers. But that's a good way of thinking about it. They're humanoid, but they're serpentine.

00:59:16.440 And I think that Eve is not talking to a possessed serpent or a talking serpent,

00:59:23.360 but she's talking to a watcher. And she wasn't surprised because this is where he belongs,

00:59:28.920 because it's the divine council. They're all over the place. And this is just the one who

00:59:33.020 happens to come up to her to test her the same way that the Satan does in Job 1 in that divine

00:59:38.760 council scene when the sons of god go with the satan to talk to the lord about what should they

00:59:44.600 do with job down on the earth right i just i think it's a it's just much it's much uh it's

00:59:52.920 this is not something that should cause people to lose their faith in the bible because eve is

00:59:59.060 talking to a talking snake right you know you hear that objection from atheists all the time

01:00:04.560 no there's something very different going on there right so then how would you explain the

01:00:09.800 curse though of uh the curse towards the serpents yeah not that kind of language is used all the

01:00:15.340 time it's used in isaiah 14 she's in um ezekiel 28 it's used in obadiah um that you will fall

01:00:22.440 from the heights and you go down low as you can go it's a it's a way of metaphorically describing

01:00:27.880 that you are at the highest place that there could be and now you're gonna you're gonna run around

01:00:32.600 in the dirt of the earth eat the dust they're gonna eat the dust exactly exactly right we see

01:00:38.580 yeah we have that metaphor in english to this day right bite the dust another one bites the dust

01:00:43.380 exactly yep all right okay that's very interesting um it's piecing together a lot of different

01:00:51.040 things for for me as i'm just personally looking into some of these some of these different views

01:00:56.380 And it's, I, I, it's fast. I mean, it is fascinating. It like,

01:01:00.880 it does make sense of so much especially like mythology and it's like,

01:01:06.260 Oh man, like, like the world really is like,

01:01:10.300 there really is a spiritual battle. The world really is a magical place.

01:01:14.720 And, and, and it was, I mean, I just can't imagine like, you know,

01:01:19.600 I think of like Noah and like, man, it was, 1.00

01:01:22.580 it would probably pretty crazy to live in the antediluvian world i mean you probably like i

01:01:28.900 mean from my understanding you've got dinosaurs right it's i'm i'm i'm a young you know six or

01:01:33.960 six day young earth creationist uh so i mean i don't think you got dinosaurs for millions of

01:01:39.820 years and then man but so know it like you know you've got dinosaurs you've got giants you've got

01:01:46.160 fallen angels you know that are have their hand and all these things that are visibly showing

01:01:51.820 themselves visibly showing themselves and you're trying to build a boat and god's gonna flood the 0.80

01:01:57.240 whole world i mean that's that's a crazy time it is would make for a good movie if some crazy guy

01:02:03.040 named aronofsky didn't already ruin it yeah someone could do it well yeah um okay uh any

01:02:08.880 any final thoughts you want to leave the listener with no not on these topics and there's we could

01:02:14.500 talk i could talk about this for forever really so cool there's no way we're just gonna have to

01:02:20.160 have you back that's that's the solution okay well thank you so much how can our listeners find you

01:02:26.060 do you want to reference one of your books and where they could buy it if they want to go check

01:02:29.780 it out yeah i mean uh you can go to my church web or well to my website first douglasvandorn.com

01:02:36.660 and i have all the books linked there and have a whole bunch of other stuff there too i you know

01:02:41.860 i've done tons of podcasts so those are all linked on there and it's i redid the site um

01:02:47.220 last fall. So I think it looks better than it did. Uh, that's where you can go. All my books

01:02:53.080 are on Amazon. So I just do the print on demand through Amazon and that's been good to me

01:02:57.360 so far. They haven't, they haven't censored me or anything. So just look up, uh, Doug Van Dorn

01:03:02.700 on Amazon. And then also, uh, people can go to our church website. Uh, it's RBCNC.com. So

01:03:12.560 just the initials for Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado.

01:03:16.960 And you can check out our church there.

01:03:19.220 You can see what we believe.

01:03:21.920 It's funny, Joel, because as crazy as I am,

01:03:25.100 our worship service is totally conservative

01:03:28.020 and like a Michael Horton kind of a URC sort of a thing.

01:03:33.080 And it kind of freaks some people out

01:03:35.420 because they hear about me from Flurry Creatures or whatever.

01:03:38.680 And then they go to the church service and like,

01:03:40.900 wasn't what it wasn't what i thought it was gonna be like right so i mean that's what i am i'm a

01:03:44.940 reformed guy i'm a reformed baptist and right and we have all of our all of our sermons are for free

01:03:50.540 on the website most of them are in pdf so you can download those do whatever you want

01:03:55.120 if there's a weird topic i mean i've been preaching for 22 years i've gone through a

01:04:00.200 lot of books of the bible i don't skip verses if it's weird and it's there and i've preached on it

01:04:05.860 chances are that i've talked about this so it's a great resource for people to

01:04:10.420 be able to dive into on all kinds of these subjects so great all right well thank you

01:04:16.960 so much for your time appreciate it yeah thanks for having me on man absolutely god bless you too

The NXR Podcast - March 25, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - Understanding The Divine Counsel And The Nephilim with Doug Van Dorn

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