In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin and Andrew Isker talk about the role of the Bible in shaping our understanding of the world around us, and the role it plays in shaping the culture we live in today.
00:00:48.720In fact, thus far, every single piece of content that we've produced here at Right Response Ministries has eventually been made available to you for free publicly.
00:21:47.720Basically, when I found out about them, when I've heard about it, I've contacted the people associated with whatever I've heard is.
00:21:55.720And one of the things I do think is helpful is it has been an opportunity for people to get their complaints on the table, say, hey, we disagree with you on this.
00:22:22.260And I think, look, sometimes there's going to be situations where maybe there's reviling, maybe there's slander.
00:22:28.240We really have the opportunity, though, to not to go full gospel-centered on you, Joel, but really to model Christ.
00:22:35.780When reviled, he did not revile in return, continuing to pursue what I think is an upright way, which is, yeah, well, the thing that I can do is not necessarily control.
00:22:46.400control all the conversation, uh, that's happening in back rooms, uh, but reach out to people where
00:22:51.300possible. Um, the other thing I'd love to see more of, quite frankly, is, uh, just honest
00:22:56.800conversation, honest debate, even if it's public. Uh, for example, one of the things we talked about
00:23:02.120in our episode with Christian nationalism is it's a really good example of people talking past each
00:23:06.940other continually. And so all this animus builds up and then, but if you actually have a conversation
00:23:12.300with them, you're like, I don't even believe the things that you're so upset that you think I
00:23:15.280believe right you know um the nazi issue is kind of a interesting case and study because there
00:23:21.980there probably is like a point zero to five percent of people who may be feds who are pushing
00:23:27.280that narrative but like if you talk to most people in the cn camp or like it's something along the
00:23:33.520lines of like i i think like a christian nation ruled by christian men would be better and people
00:23:38.160you know and then so when you get called a nazi you're like is that really a fair assessment i
00:23:41.940don't think it is um i also think just some of the the conversations we had the opportunity at
00:23:46.880the conference uh was really productive to talk to joe rigney and joe's great about this he's a
00:23:52.040very reasonable guy and he said hey i have some questions about white boy summer like tell me
00:23:56.920what you think and so we had a you know fairly lengthy conversation with him about that and at
00:24:02.000the end of it you know he was like okay yeah i actually don't have a problem if that's what
00:24:05.860you're talking about i think we're good where the danger is um is i think particularly in these
00:24:12.460cases you have to ask which gaze whose gaze over your shoulder are you really concerned about and
00:24:18.780i think if you're in the camp where you're like i am so terrified of being called a nazi
00:24:23.300who yeah to who though right and the answer is to people to the left of you
00:24:27.400and i just think if you're in that position my caution would be they already hate you
00:24:33.660like people way off to your left like you're not going to win like david french so why are you
00:24:39.700acting in a manner that would be like appeasing him by proving that you're not actually a nazi
00:24:43.600which you know in our camp like none of us are though right um so that's where i've too i've
00:24:49.000been like i'm gonna have conversations i really don't want to get into the game of i think as you
00:24:53.800and brian both found out you start denouncing like not even a denouncement but it's saying like we
00:24:58.280don't believe this and it's not enough for people no those same people are like well you need to
00:25:03.220denounce it harder and it's to say like no i'm not gonna do that joel you said this actually and
00:25:07.620it captured exactly my intentions with conversation following up with all the like oh you're a nazi
00:25:13.600thing is that i won't pay the dane geld to anybody i won't take back anything i believe
00:25:18.660anything that i just because it's unpopular because the left doesn't like it it's almost
00:25:23.220like the meme where someone gets character assassinated and you look over at him and say
00:25:27.220first time because like we've all been through this 50 different times right um but i will
00:25:31.400clarify i will when especially when friends who are like that 94 overlap and they say wait a second
00:25:38.480do you actually think this if it's sufficiently unclear i'll absolutely say hey just so everybody
00:25:45.300knows this is what i believe uncontroversially but the second you do that people think that
00:25:49.760you're getting in that you're the monkey dancing to their organ grinding and you're actually not
00:25:54.200because that's why i just chuckled it the the uh the uh on the what's the word the interlocutors
00:26:01.780were not good faith after that point who were like oh yeah well what about this what about that
00:26:06.920do you not do you announce this person this person that person this handle on twitter and i'm like no
00:26:10.820i'm not doing that i'm sorry right no not gonna do that not gonna play the game the other thing i
00:26:14.720think that's helpful in this conversation to point out is uh so we went through these issues you know
00:26:19.520we've talked to Dr. White and that was helpful. Um, there were definitely people, let's say you
00:26:24.200mentioned the CREC. There were definitely people, uh, who had some concerns about our teaching and
00:26:28.800you know, whatever. Real quick, just for the record, it's not all, and this is always the
00:26:33.820case with any kind of group or any, you know, speaking in any generalities, it's never everyone.
00:26:38.700So it's not, it's not all the CREC. And to be frank, it's not even close to all the CREC.
00:26:44.140Yeah. So to your point, that's kind of, you know, what I was saying is that, uh, as we had the
00:26:48.720conversations with the CREC, one of the things that I found was actually really helpful that
00:26:54.600the majority of people are like, hey, no, we support you guys, love you. Yeah, there's some
00:26:59.720stuff to work out, but it was mostly a favorable experience. And I think sometimes you have to
00:27:04.940keep that in perspective because if you have people offering critiques, that is going to be
00:27:11.120the loudest thing. That's going to be the thing that everybody remembers and heard about. But
00:27:15.960again so many people uh from within the denomination were were helpful uh we could say the same thing
00:27:21.820about the pca uh the opc there's definitely guys in each camp where you know they're not super big
00:27:27.620fans of us one of the things that we've found this is probably true of brian as well uh but
00:27:32.560generally it's like people get a perception of you from social media and we get perceptions of
00:27:39.160other people but just realizing that's a part of it um where you know i'll say particularly uh you
00:27:45.720know there's been critical memes of say like the boomers well you gotta give them some grace too
00:27:50.280a lot of these guys did not grow up with social media and so the interaction that they're still
00:27:55.820trying to interact like it was a blog or a debate or a format that existed 20 years ago 15 years ago
00:28:01.960whatever it is um you know even with my you know high school son i'm like he's like using words
00:28:07.540that are like very like gen z and i'm like i i feel old and the flashlight's on on my phone and
00:28:26.980Some of you will know the one I'm talking about.
00:28:28.620There's a CREC pastor that preached a sermon, and he was in a passage talking about false teachers and warning against this kind of stuff.
00:28:34.720And about 40, no, I think about 70% of the sermon was just applying that sermon in without naming us, but very clearly.
00:28:44.100I mean, very obviously it was about Joel, me, Ben, and Eric.
00:28:49.740So obviously he went to our, I mean, he had to have gone to our YouTube channel and was literally just reading off verbatim titles of videos and not one or two, but I think five to 10, five to 10 titles.
00:29:04.080he quoted eric like an actual tweet but didn't name so and then it was like you know the very
00:29:09.640the very strong implication that was left was that you know i'm not saying these guys are false
00:29:14.740teachers but like hymenaeus alexandra the chorus rebellion the earth god opened the earth and
00:29:18.840swallowed everyone else but you know and then like all these other things about these guys but also
00:29:22.980you know so like just be careful out there and immediately people started sending us all you us
00:29:28.260the sermon because there are people that we actually know and are friends with in the
00:29:31.680congregation right in his church supporters of our stuff and like what did our pastor just do
00:29:37.180wait a second what happened so instead of make a public statement this is an example what we're
00:29:42.420talking about instead of like getting on twitter and starting to freak out and quoting the sermon
00:29:46.380and flame warring which i think we could have done pretty effectively like we know how to flame war
00:29:50.980right we're pretty good at that we we just said hey let's contact the the minister let's contact
00:29:56.840the presbytery let's contact the the presiding minister let's let's talk to these guys and and
00:30:02.200let's just work this out if we if at all possible first because this is the pulpit it's a big deal0.56
00:30:06.960i think he's calling us false teachers like i think he's saying we're damnable heretics you0.69
00:30:10.540should go to hell so let's figure it out so in in the course of this meetings and setting this up
00:30:16.580one of the things that we actually found was that many crec ministers and congregants had also0.99
00:30:24.020reached out and some of them even, and you know, one of the ones that actually went to bat for us
00:30:29.940was pastor Wilson. Yeah. Amen. And, uh, and some other ministers I know in, uh, in, in Moscow.
00:30:36.780And so they said, well, I don't think that was fair. So we talked, the pastor said, believe it
00:30:42.520or not, I actually wasn't trying to say you guys were false teachers. We don't agree on all this
00:30:46.440stuff. And we were like, I mean, I don't know how you could not take that away. The text is about
00:30:51.380false teachers but yeah so then he made a public statement and said i did not intend we while
00:30:56.960differences remain i believe these are christian ministers and brothers i am praying for their
00:31:02.200success and and we we said the same so it was it was actually a really good example of that could
00:31:08.280have been an inflection point in our relationship say with even the crec right where all of a sudden
00:31:14.060that could have been it like we could have said it's time we've got the minute men three you know
00:31:19.620pointed over at the denominational headquarters i don't even know where that is probably in florida
00:31:25.240now with yuri somewhere i don't know anyway and we could hit the launch button but instead we said
00:31:29.920we said let's try to figure this out first back through the private means and then we will make
00:31:37.060a pub we will talk about it at some point here we're talking about it now and still disagree
00:31:41.900with the content and a lot of that stuff but because we picked up the phone um not only did
00:31:48.280were we able to work it out in a way that actually
00:31:50.200demonstrated that most of the CREC didn't
00:34:02.120And then within Christians, you know,0.75
00:34:04.020getting down to Protestants, you know,
00:34:05.880so Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic0.58
00:34:07.740or, you know, place of the size of Protestants.
00:34:09.720And then within Protestants, you know, the Reformed.
00:34:12.000And then within reformed, it's even a further subset of what I would consider to be, you know, goes by many names, but as a descriptive muscular, the muscular reformed or the masculine reformed or, you know, or like Doug's blog, you know, it's a blog and maybe about theology that bites back.
00:34:34.720So now you've gone from America, Christians, Protestants, Reformed, and the whole Reformed world, just to put into perspective, is like, we're talking like 150,000 to 200,000 people, like total, out of, you know, starting with like 340,000, 50 million, you know.
00:34:52.120And so now you're down to 150 to 200, and then the reform, muscular reform, reformed that's, you know, active in, you know, in the political and cultural war and those kinds of things is not even close to half of the reform.
00:35:05.720Because when we say reform, we're talking about G3, we're talking about R. Scott Clark and, you know, Westminster Escondido.
00:35:11.520You're talking about all the way from Tim Keller, you know, to John Piper, to John MacArthur, you know, in the Master's Seminary, like, it's a pretty, you know, to Ligonier and Sproul and all, you know, and all that, you know, so you get all the way down to the muscular, you know, subset of the Reformed, and you're no longer looking at 150 to 200,000.
00:35:30.920you're looking at like, well, I think it's grown, you know, uh, but, but four or five years ago,
00:35:36.740you're looking at, I mean, it may only be 10, 20, 30,000, you know, like, and you know, for the
00:35:42.560longest time, Canon, um, as a publishing company, uh, their bestseller wasn't any of their reformed
00:35:48.040books. Their bestseller was like their, their school curriculum. It was like a science book
00:35:52.020or a math book or things like that. And so, uh, which is great kids, kids need to learn. And so,
00:35:56.220But my point is, I think if I'm to steal, man, and to be as charitable as possible, I think the CREC was probably pretty, got pretty used to being the only muscular reform guys around for decades.
00:36:24.560So that's my point when trying to be as charitable as possible is here's a crew of guys, of men, who have been faithful in a particular task, not just for four or five years, but for a couple decades, for quite a while, and have received as the fruit, you know, or the reward for their labor, nothing but scorn.
00:39:27.660They're still, you know, your countrymen, you know, like, but they're not your, you know, they're not cut from the exact same corner of the same cloth.
00:39:40.520And I think that there can be, if we're not careful, and we can all do this, I can do
00:39:45.700this, but if we're not careful, there can be frustration.
00:39:49.640There can be frustration, one, because someone who is adjacent is not as controllable.
00:39:55.720You don't have as much authority in the formal ecclesiastical sense.
00:40:00.940You can influence, and here's the deal, we're young men, we welcome influence.
00:40:05.340If you want to be an older man who's not going to disparage us and publicly seek to
00:40:09.960to humiliate us, but you actually are concerned and you want to pick up the phone and call.
00:40:14.38080-minute calls from James White, I'll take them. Probably he'll need to send me,
00:40:19.980just to keep it interesting, I'll need him to send me a few texts, screenshots of his cats
00:40:23.680throughout the 80 minutes, just so that we both are having a great time. But I love James White.
00:40:28.040I'm down for that call. I love James White. I love Doug Wilson. I love these guys.
00:40:31.980And so, but my point is influence, yes, but I think that there's a temptation to say these guys, they, I think there's a temptation to say they stole our goods, but didn't join our crew, you know?
00:40:49.000And if you're not careful, and again, trying not to speculate, but I try to put myself just, you know, sometimes I try to, you know, to steal man and to be charitable to the person that you're having a disagreement with.
00:40:59.680it's helpful to put yourself in their shoes and just imagine it for a moment. I was thinking,
00:41:03.400if I spent 40 years building something and everyone hated me for 40 years, I'm not even
00:41:09.60040 years old. So my entire lifetime, I'm 38 years old. If my entire lifetime, plus a couple of years,
00:41:15.340I had been faithfully building something, I'm the only one and I've gotten nothing but scorn.
00:41:22.120And then all of a sudden other guys overnight took me 40 years. And then these other guys in
00:41:27.760four years are putting up massive numbers with their podcasts and these kinds of things.
00:41:32.860And I'm listening to them and they're just repeating like 90% of the things that I wrote
00:41:39.300in my books. And I know that they got it. I know they read my books. I know where they got it from.
00:41:44.060I know where that theology comes from. But they didn't join us and they're kind of doing their
00:41:51.320own thing, it would be tempting to disparage. But that's back to the whole point of the show,
00:41:59.360no more brother wars. And if we want to win, Christendom, the only way Christendom wins,
00:42:05.500the whole idea of Christendom is this all-encompassing entity that's massive and
00:42:13.020that you can't even, at a certain point, you don't even know where it began, where does it start and
00:42:18.880where does it end? And does this blur into that? And does that blur into this? And it's just this
00:42:22.800massive, like, it's an ocean. Chrysidom is like an ocean. You're just swimming in it. And you
00:42:27.960don't know the particular current, but it's just all water. It's all encompassing. And if you want
00:42:34.640to win, you need chrysidom. And if you want chrysidom, chrysidom can't be perfectly organized.
00:42:41.060It can't, chrysidom, I remember Doug Wilson saying this to Michael O'Fallon on Twitter,
00:42:45.440it was hilarious. But Michael O'Fallon was like, if we have Christodom, you know, like
00:42:49.520in a Christian prince, who's that guy going to be? You know, who's the guy who's going to be in
00:42:53.980charge of all this? And Doug Wilson said, the same guy who's in charge of the free market.
00:42:58.760You know, and me and another guy commented, like, it's like a majestic great white shark,
00:43:03.680you know, it breaches for a moment. He doesn't often tweet, but when he does, you know, it's
00:43:06.780a sight to behold, it's glorious, you know. But my point is that like, that's the difficulty of
00:43:14.280Christendom is no one person, no one church, no one ministry, and no one denomination like this
00:43:20.920year gets to control it. Ogden and right response. You can sit there and say, you're not doing it
00:43:28.760exactly our way. Or you could sit there and rightfully say, this is the fruit of what we
00:43:34.060worked on for 40 years. And you know what? You'll get no disagreement from me. We'll sit there and
00:43:39.720say, yep. Yes, sir. The Bible tells me to honor, uh, show honor where honor is due. And you're
00:43:45.420right. I would not, I would not have the convictions I have today and be doing what I'm
00:43:50.080doing. If it wasn't for, uh, your faithful service when it was small for decades and you receive
00:43:56.300nothing but scorn. So you can look at your sons and say, uh, what the heck are they doing?
00:44:04.900Or you can look at your sons and think, I think it's appropriate to think what the heck are you
00:44:09.580doing. I'm a father. I've got a kid. I've got a little son. And I'm often thinking that,
00:44:13.480but there's a difference in saying it publicly to other adults, mocking your son as he's doing0.98
00:44:18.400something foolish versus thinking it in your head. But publicly, the only thing that's going0.85
00:44:22.660to come out of my mouth is this is my son. Proud of that guy. Look at that chat over there. Look
00:44:28.120at that. Love it. And then you pull him aside and you say, my dear son. My son. Who has bewitched
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