The NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - When Brothers Fight Against Brothers with The Kings Hall

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00:00:42.140 All right, I'm going to be honest with you.

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00:01:00.960 First two episodes will launch publicly.

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00:01:12.060 Why?

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00:01:43.500 What conversation am I even talking about?

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00:02:03.560 You can get every single episode available now, all of it ad free.

00:02:07.860 And here's a couple of clips just to whet your appetite.

00:02:11.160 And so our entire moral framework is based around 1930 and 1940. 0.89

00:02:15.500 And every bad thing is Hitler.

00:02:18.660 Every failure to confront the bad thing is Neville Chamberlain. 0.85

00:02:23.540 And Saddam Hussein, Hitler.

00:02:25.820 Vladimir Putin, Hitler.

00:02:27.220 Donald Trump, Hitler.

00:02:28.600 That's the only moral framework that we have that is operable.

00:02:32.880 So the moment that a young man crosses the aisle and the don't believe your lying eyes rhetoric doesn't work any longer,

00:02:40.420 And he's just noticed too much because it really is that blatantly obvious.

00:02:44.360 And he has nowhere else to go.

00:02:45.220 And he crosses the aisle.

00:02:46.320 Well, the moment he crosses the aisle, there's no reasonable, wise, mature leader over there.

00:02:50.300 You would just have the guys on the TV telling them, this is what the Bible says.

00:02:54.960 You have to believe this.

00:02:56.360 On the radio, the Christian radio stations, you'd only hear those guys preaching that particular thing.

00:03:03.080 When that is actually, when you look at all of church history, that's the minority view.

00:03:08.720 a tiny minority view the rest of theological history in the church is that you know is the

00:03:16.980 kind of stuff that we're saying yeah this one's a banger again go to patreon.com forward slash

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00:03:30.140 applying god's word to every aspect of life this is theology applied

00:03:40.020 all right welcome to another episode of theology applied i am your host pastor joel webin

00:03:49.720 with right response ministries and in this episode uh if there was any title for it we

00:03:54.520 probably call it something like this no more brother wars it is an episode that actually

00:03:58.600 was recorded by the King's Hall, which you should have heard by this point. This episode that we're

00:04:03.100 doing now comes out a few days later. If you haven't had a chance, go over to the King's Hall

00:04:07.240 and check out the episode that they put out. And this is kind of a repeat, maybe getting into the

00:04:11.680 weeds on some certain specific topics that they didn't address. But I have as special guest for

00:04:17.520 this episode, the co-host of the King's Hall. Guys, thanks for coming on. Joel, thanks for having us.

00:04:24.000 it's great to be here with you absolutely all right so we've got eric khan brian silvey and

00:04:29.600 dan burkholder so you guys kind of you know um have been trying you know your best and i know

00:04:36.060 that i've been doing this too i had a call with james white a few weeks ago and eric you just

00:04:40.660 had an 80 minute call which is great we saw that on twitter um we're trying to repair any of the

00:04:47.500 fractures that we can and uh remember the big picture that we have communists on the front

00:04:52.540 porch that need to be uh warmly disinvited from our country that's the big idea we want to uh to

00:04:59.740 fight the real enemy and not fight each other uh what what did you eric you and james talk about

00:05:04.980 what was the the consensus that you know coming away from that are we are we good are we still in

00:05:10.060 trouble what what's what's going on hopefully hopefully i do think we're good i think the

00:05:14.440 the bulk of the conversation uh really was just you know we want to be for apologia we want

00:05:19.340 apologia to be for Ogden. Same thing could be said about Moscow and, you know, you guys down

00:05:25.040 in Texas. But really, when you look at it, if you looked at each camp, like overlapping circles,

00:05:30.380 we have so much in common. There's so much theology that unites us. You could even say

00:05:35.120 it's probably 98%. And so we really just talked about how do we maintain differences? We have

00:05:41.200 distinctives and we can still have debates and friendly conversation. But how do we do that

00:05:45.540 without trying to destroy one another and uh you know joel i will say by the end of it i was

00:05:51.040 researching uh where to buy my next coogee um so james was very helpful on that front and uh you

00:05:57.980 know if you don't go to their website by the way eric and james have been like texting about

00:06:03.100 the rv dr white's cats like eric and dr white are basically like good friends he doesn't even talk

00:06:10.840 to us anymore he just hangs out just just with his new friend james white like so i do think that

00:06:16.900 is it's one of those things where what we wanted to encourage was guys just picking up the phone

00:06:21.000 talking to each other let's see if we can't sort through some of these differences it's a little

00:06:24.900 bit of the netter or neoter principle right where we want to have friendships with people who are so

00:06:29.760 close to us and recognize like what is the friend enemy distinction you know james white can can

00:06:35.280 differ on sacralism and some of the views that that you know he's espousing in opposition to

00:06:40.560 even wolf that's fine but how do we do that in a peaceful way to maintain unity as a christian

00:06:45.620 body because at the end of the day you have these conversations with a lot of these guys and i really

00:06:50.640 did that was the first time i talked to james white and i walked away and i said i actually

00:06:54.000 really like james yeah um i think that you know he had even brought up he said you know you guys

00:06:59.020 called me a pietist and he he was talking about all the things that they've done to fight in the

00:07:04.660 political realm and fight for you know the pro-life stuff and abolition all that and it gave me a level

00:07:12.120 of respect where it's like okay i get it we differ on some of these things uh but at the end of the

00:07:16.720 day we have a real enemy and it may not be our brother i don't think it is our brother in that

00:07:22.600 case right yeah one of the points like overall is is i think we'd agree on this that if we're

00:07:29.120 actually the christendom wing of the coalition like we're the people who are saying we love

00:07:34.060 christendom let's learn from the crusades let's go learn from christendom 1.0 and and critically

00:07:39.080 assess it and say here's what we don't like about it here's what we do like about it here's what

00:07:43.920 lessons we think we could learn here's where we've fallen and our forefathers were greater than us

00:07:48.880 one of the things that that actually means in a funny way if we're the christendom faction

00:07:54.620 is that we actually have to figure out how to work in coalition across lines including with

00:08:00.520 people who don't like christendom or like i'm not into christendom so the point was as much as we 0.99

00:08:05.820 you know we have beef with with g3 even like take someone even further from us in terms of 1.00

00:08:11.400 practice and culture and some of their aims the reality is if we're aiming for the new christendom 1.00

00:08:16.440 i am for g3 i want g3 to win i want apologia to win i want the lutherans to win i want the

00:08:25.180 credo baptist twin the presbyterians the like christendom implies a coalition that is both

00:08:33.240 ecclesiastical but beyond that it's it's political it's cultural it's international it's national

00:08:38.220 it's got all these other elements there so that's a main thoroughfare of the point we're trying to

00:08:42.240 make is just no more brother wars doesn't mean like the uniformity and homogeneity of sameness

00:08:48.000 it means that um we're going to maintain our particularity we want you to have your

00:08:54.060 convictional particularity but we want to get along and be able to work together instead of

00:08:59.920 doing the post-war consensus thing that said hey let's fight against the dangers of national 0.90

00:09:05.580 particularity with gay globo homo sameness like nobody's allowed to have germany and italy and 0.93

00:09:12.100 france and england and america they can't have their own national identity that people very much 1.00

00:09:16.660 love and are zealous for let's flatten it all out and we're saying no like you these different

00:09:23.400 tribes and peoples and places, they can have their own emphasis, convictions, distinctives.

00:09:29.480 Let's figure out a way to be for one another and maintain those convictional distinctions.

00:09:37.080 I really think that's at the heart of what we're trying to say, if you guys would agree.

00:09:40.840 Yeah. And along those lines, I mean, one could possibly object and say, oh,

00:09:46.300 so James White reached out to you because you were found out, your arguments couldn't stand,

00:09:51.300 And so now you're calling for peace, right? 0.99

00:09:54.040 Essentially, it's you're being a sore loser. 0.97

00:09:56.520 So now you want peace. 0.97

00:09:58.160 And reality would just show that's not true.

00:10:02.520 We reached out, Eric reached out to Dr. James White.

00:10:06.780 And this has been, like Brian said, our vision since the beginning.

00:10:10.080 We called this project New Christendom Press.

00:10:13.120 And our vision is building the new Christendom, which necessitates, like Brian said, coalition

00:10:19.140 across people that might even disagree with you on many things. And so this has been our work

00:10:24.580 from the beginning. This is actually baked into the DNA of who we are in our church, even by being

00:10:31.780 dual practice with baptism. We actually practice this locally. This isn't just an ideal that's in

00:10:41.300 the ether somewhere. Yeah. We didn't get beat and then say, oh, wait, I'm sorry, guys. No more

00:10:47.440 fighting yeah we we got punched in the face and now no it wasn't like in our church we're like oh

00:10:53.060 we're convinced of pedo-baptism and we don't really have a good defense for the credo-baptist

00:10:57.860 so we'll just accept both and like conceit concede defeat you know uh that's that's not what happened

00:11:03.560 we're actually this is our dna this is our value yeah i think the other part too uh joel in this

00:11:09.440 is like as you're doing the historical research on the first christendom you find that time and

00:11:14.140 time again, Christians have been destroyed primarily because there were betrayals from within

00:11:20.020 coalitions that fell apart, whether it's, you know, Skanderbeg and John Hunyadi, and then you'll get

00:11:25.560 somebody in the middle who has betrayed them, refuses to come to the aid of the Christians. 0.77

00:11:30.320 Vlad, of course, is sold out by another Christian prince for the Turks. And so as we looked at that, 0.80

00:11:37.980 we said, wait, this is a huge issue. And one of the temptations that we have to fight, I think,

00:11:42.060 particularly as protestants is to continually ghettoize and then fight each other rather than

00:11:48.000 again realizing hey what what would happen if we actually work together the other thing i would

00:11:52.680 say about it is if you actually have relationships with people kind of slowing your role and saying

00:11:57.400 okay i didn't like that tweet i don't maybe i don't get it uh we've done a lot in the last

00:12:01.920 couple weeks of just firing off text message and saying i'll screenshot or i'll send the link to

00:12:06.120 the text or the tweet in a text and i'll say what did you mean by this and i like this concept is

00:12:13.000 foreign to a lot of people but you don't actually have to grab every passing dog by the tail right

00:12:18.020 yeah and it's not everything has to be in your immediate response to something you disagree with

00:12:24.260 it doesn't there's no law of the universe that says you must tweet publicly about it before you

00:12:30.380 actually to try to talk to the person and we're not saying that public teaching isn't open to

00:12:35.580 public scrutiny of course if i tweet something if eric or dan or any of us we say something on

00:12:41.380 the record in a public forum like twitter it is perfectly fine if someone else in a different

00:12:46.420 tribe or camp argues with it and says we we're not i wait i don't agree can you clarify here

00:12:52.040 what i don't want though is um the behind the scenes political um silencing whisper campaigning

00:13:00.380 gossip campaigning like but where you haven't actually ever talked to a person where that you

00:13:05.940 very much could and you're about four degrees of separation removed from right and instead of

00:13:10.720 talking to them and trying to work out differences you're privately secretly warning other people

00:13:15.060 about them and you're sending emails and you're doing all that that to me is kind of not that

00:13:20.500 helpful i'd like to hear you guys your thoughts of why why have there been these fractures in the

00:13:27.120 first place i have my you know my opinions but i like why why is it that all of a sudden there's

00:13:34.060 because when i think of when i think of you know a certain wing of the reformed world

00:13:39.040 um they're you know like the crec they've always had a reputation of being some of the most

00:13:46.760 ecumenical guys on the block um you know like you know like if rod reer is you know um calling

00:13:55.620 Doug Wilson, you know, um, a tyrant and, and a dictator that his boot is going to be stamping 0.71

00:14:01.600 on a face, you know, that's smushed into the curb, you know, in perpetuity, he gets an invite and

00:14:06.600 not, not for a private discussion, but to publicly speak to the NSA students, right. You know, or,

00:14:11.280 or if you're Paul Miller, you know, or whatever, and you're, you're quite literally a fed, you

00:14:16.460 know, like invitation, like, uh, you know, so that like lots of invitations. Um, but in some

00:14:22.020 ways it feels like the closest guys are the ones who are treated as though they're the biggest

00:14:27.820 threat. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? Well, I do. I think that there is, and I want

00:14:32.300 to steel man this. I want to try to say this in a way that I think someone who has had concerns,

00:14:37.420 maybe about Ogden or about you would go, yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing I'm actually

00:14:41.920 trying to get at because otherwise it's like you can go back and forth in podcasts forever

00:14:46.060 and never really deal with the issues. So the way that I've thought this through in my mind

00:14:51.880 to try to understand it, is that when you're really close and overlapped, like you've described,

00:14:57.360 you've got multiple ministries, multiple, as we call them, Christian boroughs, that are making

00:15:02.480 influential content, writing books, podcasts, things like that. And because of your overlap,

00:15:09.060 your people are being influenced by these other people. So now it's a concern for you,

00:15:16.000 because you're actually concerned for your people. And so let's say then that one of those

00:15:21.120 christian burroughs that's close enough that you share quite a bit of an audience with them they're

00:15:25.780 not james mcdonald or well he's probably not around anymore they're not some crazy charismatic

00:15:29.960 group out there that has nothing to do with your people like you're in the reformed world

00:15:33.340 close overlap now let's say that there's stuff going on in that world that you're genuinely

00:15:37.940 concerned about you don't like it you think it's wrong you think it's um leading people astray

00:15:42.340 and whether that's theonomy classical two kingdoms stuff whether it's like um you you look at some

00:15:49.240 things on the internet you say like wow are these guys promoting like nazism are they pro is like

00:15:55.540 national socialism the thing they're trying to bring back are they trying to make nazism great

00:15:59.320 again or you know something like that then all of a sudden if you don't actually clarify take the 0.51

00:16:04.640 time to clarify what do they believe and you conclude that they believe something that you

00:16:09.100 consider highly dangerous whether you're right or wrong about that you are going to be uh you're

00:16:15.460 going to have an instinct to say, hey, my people, be careful about this thing. Be careful about

00:16:21.620 these people. And so that can go on, and there's a legitimacy to that as a pastoral concern and as

00:16:28.580 a concern for your people. Now, where it goes off the rails, though, is when you're not careful to

00:16:34.800 actually make sure that you're understanding substantively what the other people are teaching

00:16:40.260 and believe if you don't do that and then you politically whisper campaign and you know

00:16:45.860 campaign against them on the basis of a false belief about what they're promoting

00:16:50.180 then you have done something sinful you've done something unhelpful right yeah so that's at the

00:16:57.760 most basic level me putting on my most charitable hat that i can saying i can understand that i i

00:17:04.340 think that's a thought process that's involved i think there's other things too but that's that's

00:17:07.960 certainly one of them so i think that's perfectly understandable the problem is um for me the

00:17:13.760 problem is the timeline so like that would make total sense uh if there were you know discrepancies

00:17:22.240 and frustrations and divisions and and these kinds of things forming over let's say like um the last

00:17:29.980 two or three months and and that was the first that any of these things had ever

00:17:35.820 occurred, you know, that there's, there's starting to be a withdrawal or even a warning at a local

00:17:42.760 level, you know, as a pastor, you know, talking to some of his church members, if, if those things,

00:17:48.440 if those things had never occurred until the last two or three months, then I still would say that

00:17:54.460 they're unfounded, you know, pick up the phone, give us a call. You'll quickly find out that none

00:17:59.240 of us are fans of socialism, um, you know, that, that, that, that these, uh, concerns are ill

00:18:04.880 founded, but, um, in my experience, it's not, um, I'll say it like this in my experience,

00:18:12.560 taking Nazis as an example, um, the white boy summer video that you, Brian and Eric and I shared.

00:18:22.560 and then you know you know there's like 650 quick images and then we were alerted that hey well you

00:18:30.960 know there might be some nazi imagery and so then we come back you know we're like hey just for the 0.53

00:18:34.860 record um you know we don't like bolsheviks and we also don't like nazis glad we could clear that

00:18:41.860 up okay what's next you know and then move on um but my point is uh i had the impression and i want

00:18:48.500 to see if you guys had it too i had the impression that this is not where concerns began but that

00:18:54.300 this was actually almost like a a warm warmly welcomed confirmation for the concerns that have

00:19:01.240 been going on for a year and a half all right that's it guys i tried to warn you the time has

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00:19:19.360 for teenagers and free for kids what am i talking about well i'm talking about the christ is king

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00:21:29.500 Yeah, that's a good question.

00:21:30.820 I mean, I would be personally, I would want to be really careful about attributing motive where I don't actually know.

00:21:36.820 And part of it, too, I think that's been helpful in this process for me is, yeah, some people have there's whisper campaigns.

00:21:46.080 We know that that's happening.

00:21:47.720 Basically, when I found out about them, when I've heard about it, I've contacted the people associated with whatever I've heard is.

00:21:55.720 And one of the things I do think is helpful is it has been an opportunity for people to get their complaints on the table, say, hey, we disagree with you on this.

00:22:05.140 We have offered pushback.

00:22:06.420 They've offered pushback.

00:22:08.120 And, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, we don't agree with each other.

00:22:12.660 But at least we can get to the point where maybe we're being a little more fair.

00:22:16.080 Right.

00:22:16.400 And maybe it's not such a character assassination attempt, if you will.

00:22:20.500 So I think that is helpful.

00:22:22.260 And I think, look, sometimes there's going to be situations where maybe there's reviling, maybe there's slander.

00:22:28.240 We really have the opportunity, though, to not to go full gospel-centered on you, Joel, but really to model Christ.

00:22:35.780 When reviled, he did not revile in return, continuing to pursue what I think is an upright way, which is, yeah, well, the thing that I can do is not necessarily control.

00:22:46.400 control all the conversation, uh, that's happening in back rooms, uh, but reach out to people where

00:22:51.300 possible. Um, the other thing I'd love to see more of, quite frankly, is, uh, just honest

00:22:56.800 conversation, honest debate, even if it's public. Uh, for example, one of the things we talked about

00:23:02.120 in our episode with Christian nationalism is it's a really good example of people talking past each

00:23:06.940 other continually. And so all this animus builds up and then, but if you actually have a conversation

00:23:12.300 with them, you're like, I don't even believe the things that you're so upset that you think I

00:23:15.280 believe right you know um the nazi issue is kind of a interesting case and study because there

00:23:21.980 there probably is like a point zero to five percent of people who may be feds who are pushing

00:23:27.280 that narrative but like if you talk to most people in the cn camp or like it's something along the

00:23:33.520 lines of like i i think like a christian nation ruled by christian men would be better and people

00:23:38.160 you know and then so when you get called a nazi you're like is that really a fair assessment i

00:23:41.940 don't think it is um i also think just some of the the conversations we had the opportunity at

00:23:46.880 the conference uh was really productive to talk to joe rigney and joe's great about this he's a

00:23:52.040 very reasonable guy and he said hey i have some questions about white boy summer like tell me

00:23:56.920 what you think and so we had a you know fairly lengthy conversation with him about that and at

00:24:02.000 the end of it you know he was like okay yeah i actually don't have a problem if that's what

00:24:05.860 you're talking about i think we're good where the danger is um is i think particularly in these

00:24:12.460 cases you have to ask which gaze whose gaze over your shoulder are you really concerned about and

00:24:18.780 i think if you're in the camp where you're like i am so terrified of being called a nazi

00:24:23.300 who yeah to who though right and the answer is to people to the left of you

00:24:27.400 and i just think if you're in that position my caution would be they already hate you

00:24:33.660 like people way off to your left like you're not going to win like david french so why are you

00:24:39.700 acting in a manner that would be like appeasing him by proving that you're not actually a nazi

00:24:43.600 which you know in our camp like none of us are though right um so that's where i've too i've

00:24:49.000 been like i'm gonna have conversations i really don't want to get into the game of i think as you

00:24:53.800 and brian both found out you start denouncing like not even a denouncement but it's saying like we

00:24:58.280 don't believe this and it's not enough for people no those same people are like well you need to

00:25:03.220 denounce it harder and it's to say like no i'm not gonna do that joel you said this actually and

00:25:07.620 it captured exactly my intentions with conversation following up with all the like oh you're a nazi

00:25:13.600 thing is that i won't pay the dane geld to anybody i won't take back anything i believe

00:25:18.660 anything that i just because it's unpopular because the left doesn't like it it's almost

00:25:23.220 like the meme where someone gets character assassinated and you look over at him and say

00:25:27.220 first time because like we've all been through this 50 different times right um but i will

00:25:31.400 clarify i will when especially when friends who are like that 94 overlap and they say wait a second

00:25:38.480 do you actually think this if it's sufficiently unclear i'll absolutely say hey just so everybody

00:25:45.300 knows this is what i believe uncontroversially but the second you do that people think that

00:25:49.760 you're getting in that you're the monkey dancing to their organ grinding and you're actually not

00:25:54.200 because that's why i just chuckled it the the uh the uh on the what's the word the interlocutors

00:26:01.780 were not good faith after that point who were like oh yeah well what about this what about that

00:26:06.920 do you not do you announce this person this person that person this handle on twitter and i'm like no

00:26:10.820 i'm not doing that i'm sorry right no not gonna do that not gonna play the game the other thing i

00:26:14.720 think that's helpful in this conversation to point out is uh so we went through these issues you know

00:26:19.520 we've talked to Dr. White and that was helpful. Um, there were definitely people, let's say you

00:26:24.200 mentioned the CREC. There were definitely people, uh, who had some concerns about our teaching and

00:26:28.800 you know, whatever. Real quick, just for the record, it's not all, and this is always the

00:26:33.820 case with any kind of group or any, you know, speaking in any generalities, it's never everyone.

00:26:38.700 So it's not, it's not all the CREC. And to be frank, it's not even close to all the CREC.

00:26:44.140 Yeah. So to your point, that's kind of, you know, what I was saying is that, uh, as we had the

00:26:48.720 conversations with the CREC, one of the things that I found was actually really helpful that

00:26:54.600 the majority of people are like, hey, no, we support you guys, love you. Yeah, there's some

00:26:59.720 stuff to work out, but it was mostly a favorable experience. And I think sometimes you have to

00:27:04.940 keep that in perspective because if you have people offering critiques, that is going to be

00:27:11.120 the loudest thing. That's going to be the thing that everybody remembers and heard about. But

00:27:15.960 again so many people uh from within the denomination were were helpful uh we could say the same thing

00:27:21.820 about the pca uh the opc there's definitely guys in each camp where you know they're not super big

00:27:27.620 fans of us one of the things that we've found this is probably true of brian as well uh but

00:27:32.560 generally it's like people get a perception of you from social media and we get perceptions of

00:27:39.160 other people but just realizing that's a part of it um where you know i'll say particularly uh you

00:27:45.720 know there's been critical memes of say like the boomers well you gotta give them some grace too

00:27:50.280 a lot of these guys did not grow up with social media and so the interaction that they're still

00:27:55.820 trying to interact like it was a blog or a debate or a format that existed 20 years ago 15 years ago

00:28:01.960 whatever it is um you know even with my you know high school son i'm like he's like using words

00:28:07.540 that are like very like gen z and i'm like i i feel old and the flashlight's on on my phone and

00:28:12.560 I don't know what to do about this.

00:28:14.240 So I think it's also just being gracious with one another and slow to jump to some of those conclusions.

00:28:19.300 A point as well.

00:28:20.400 So this is an interesting case study, actually, of a lot of what we're talking about.

00:28:24.280 You actually brought it up earlier.

00:28:25.480 There was the sermon.

00:28:26.980 Some of you will know the one I'm talking about.

00:28:28.620 There's a CREC pastor that preached a sermon, and he was in a passage talking about false teachers and warning against this kind of stuff.

00:28:34.720 And about 40, no, I think about 70% of the sermon was just applying that sermon in without naming us, but very clearly.

00:28:44.100 I mean, very obviously it was about Joel, me, Ben, and Eric.

00:28:49.740 So obviously he went to our, I mean, he had to have gone to our YouTube channel and was literally just reading off verbatim titles of videos and not one or two, but I think five to 10, five to 10 titles.

00:29:04.080 he quoted eric like an actual tweet but didn't name so and then it was like you know the very

00:29:09.640 the very strong implication that was left was that you know i'm not saying these guys are false

00:29:14.740 teachers but like hymenaeus alexandra the chorus rebellion the earth god opened the earth and

00:29:18.840 swallowed everyone else but you know and then like all these other things about these guys but also

00:29:22.980 you know so like just be careful out there and immediately people started sending us all you us

00:29:28.260 the sermon because there are people that we actually know and are friends with in the

00:29:31.680 congregation right in his church supporters of our stuff and like what did our pastor just do

00:29:37.180 wait a second what happened so instead of make a public statement this is an example what we're

00:29:42.420 talking about instead of like getting on twitter and starting to freak out and quoting the sermon

00:29:46.380 and flame warring which i think we could have done pretty effectively like we know how to flame war

00:29:50.980 right we're pretty good at that we we just said hey let's contact the the minister let's contact

00:29:56.840 the presbytery let's contact the the presiding minister let's let's talk to these guys and and

00:30:02.200 let's just work this out if we if at all possible first because this is the pulpit it's a big deal 0.56

00:30:06.960 i think he's calling us false teachers like i think he's saying we're damnable heretics you 0.69

00:30:10.540 should go to hell so let's figure it out so in in the course of this meetings and setting this up

00:30:16.580 one of the things that we actually found was that many crec ministers and congregants had also 0.99

00:30:24.020 reached out and some of them even, and you know, one of the ones that actually went to bat for us

00:30:29.940 was pastor Wilson. Yeah. Amen. And, uh, and some other ministers I know in, uh, in, in Moscow.

00:30:36.780 And so they said, well, I don't think that was fair. So we talked, the pastor said, believe it

00:30:42.520 or not, I actually wasn't trying to say you guys were false teachers. We don't agree on all this

00:30:46.440 stuff. And we were like, I mean, I don't know how you could not take that away. The text is about

00:30:51.380 false teachers but yeah so then he made a public statement and said i did not intend we while

00:30:56.960 differences remain i believe these are christian ministers and brothers i am praying for their

00:31:02.200 success and and we we said the same so it was it was actually a really good example of that could

00:31:08.280 have been an inflection point in our relationship say with even the crec right where all of a sudden

00:31:14.060 that could have been it like we could have said it's time we've got the minute men three you know

00:31:19.620 pointed over at the denominational headquarters i don't even know where that is probably in florida

00:31:25.240 now with yuri somewhere i don't know anyway and we could hit the launch button but instead we said

00:31:29.920 we said let's try to figure this out first back through the private means and then we will make

00:31:37.060 a pub we will talk about it at some point here we're talking about it now and still disagree

00:31:41.900 with the content and a lot of that stuff but because we picked up the phone um not only did

00:31:48.280 were we able to work it out in a way that actually

00:31:50.200 demonstrated that most of the CREC didn't

00:31:52.320 agree with it? It wasn't the CREC

00:31:54.300 talking to us. It also demonstrated

00:31:55.880 that a lot of those ministers that we've

00:31:58.260 even had like disagreements with in the past

00:32:00.360 and talked through issues who

00:32:02.140 we don't see eye to eye on every single thing.

00:32:04.300 A lot of those people were like,

00:32:06.020 swing and a miss, my guy.

00:32:08.520 Swing and a miss on this. So

00:32:10.060 I think we have to recognize

00:32:12.420 that some of these things are relationally

00:32:14.220 complex. We're dealing with humans

00:32:16.100 and people and so there's always going to be a great big soup of sins righteousness good motives

00:32:23.580 bad motives genuine mistakes and also malicious sinful actions and the only way you start to

00:32:32.180 unwind those things is actually by trying to unwind those things not by starting a nuclear war

00:32:38.940 right a brother war right to the thesis no more brother wars right so let's work together as best

00:32:45.720 we can. Again, Paul says, insofar as it's up to you, be at peace with all men. He recognizes that

00:32:51.200 that's a limited scope. Well, I was going to say, too, one of the helpful things that a CREC minister

00:32:56.080 did say to me in this process was, you know, if Ogden in Moscow or Ogden in the CREC, Ogden in

00:33:03.360 Georgetown, you know, whatever it is, if we can't get along, there is no point in ever talking about

00:33:08.560 Christendom again. Like, if those groups that are so close can't get along, then, you know, you might

00:33:14.780 as well call it now and on the flip side i think that we can start to work towards some of that

00:33:19.280 coalition building it's going to be hard you see this obviously uh in in books like lord of the

00:33:24.160 rings we would pretty much be remiss brian if we didn't bring up lord of the rings at least once

00:33:28.680 at least one one time uh so yeah it really is i think a lot of it's like it's a gondor

00:33:33.760 rohan thing for a lot of these camps where it's like hey we have differences and they're real

00:33:38.520 and we're not trying to say that we don't have them uh but we are saying that there there's orcs

00:33:43.900 and we're going to fight them, not each other.

00:33:46.120 We forget how small everything is.

00:33:48.060 Everything is so small.

00:33:49.480 So, you know, if you pan out and you say,

00:33:51.380 okay, these United States of America, right? 0.95

00:33:54.240 And then you say Christians, right?

00:33:56.220 So you're already down to a subset, you know,

00:33:58.280 within America, you know, as a whole

00:34:01.060 and its total population.

00:34:02.120 And then within Christians, you know, 0.75

00:34:04.020 getting down to Protestants, you know,

00:34:05.880 so Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic 0.58

00:34:07.740 or, you know, place of the size of Protestants.

00:34:09.720 And then within Protestants, you know, the Reformed.

00:34:12.000 And then within reformed, it's even a further subset of what I would consider to be, you know, goes by many names, but as a descriptive muscular, the muscular reformed or the masculine reformed or, you know, or like Doug's blog, you know, it's a blog and maybe about theology that bites back.

00:34:34.720 So now you've gone from America, Christians, Protestants, Reformed, and the whole Reformed world, just to put into perspective, is like, we're talking like 150,000 to 200,000 people, like total, out of, you know, starting with like 340,000, 50 million, you know.

00:34:52.120 And so now you're down to 150 to 200, and then the reform, muscular reform, reformed that's, you know, active in, you know, in the political and cultural war and those kinds of things is not even close to half of the reform.

00:35:05.720 Because when we say reform, we're talking about G3, we're talking about R. Scott Clark and, you know, Westminster Escondido.

00:35:11.520 You're talking about all the way from Tim Keller, you know, to John Piper, to John MacArthur, you know, in the Master's Seminary, like, it's a pretty, you know, to Ligonier and Sproul and all, you know, and all that, you know, so you get all the way down to the muscular, you know, subset of the Reformed, and you're no longer looking at 150 to 200,000.

00:35:30.920 you're looking at like, well, I think it's grown, you know, uh, but, but four or five years ago,

00:35:36.740 you're looking at, I mean, it may only be 10, 20, 30,000, you know, like, and you know, for the

00:35:42.560 longest time, Canon, um, as a publishing company, uh, their bestseller wasn't any of their reformed

00:35:48.040 books. Their bestseller was like their, their school curriculum. It was like a science book

00:35:52.020 or a math book or things like that. And so, uh, which is great kids, kids need to learn. And so,

00:35:56.220 But my point is, I think if I'm to steal, man, and to be as charitable as possible, I think the CREC was probably pretty, got pretty used to being the only muscular reform guys around for decades.

00:36:10.100 Yeah, who else was there?

00:36:11.580 Nobody.

00:36:12.280 There was basically nobody else. 0.91

00:36:14.080 In fact, all of the other reformed Christians basically hated Doug Wilson's guts and wanted him to die in a fiery car crash. 0.82

00:36:21.340 Exactly. 0.94

00:36:22.140 Hopefully before No Quarter November came out.

00:36:24.200 That's right.

00:36:24.560 So that's my point when trying to be as charitable as possible is here's a crew of guys, of men, who have been faithful in a particular task, not just for four or five years, but for a couple decades, for quite a while, and have received as the fruit, you know, or the reward for their labor, nothing but scorn.

00:36:47.060 Absolute, pure vitriol and hatred.

00:36:50.940 100-proof scorn.

00:36:52.560 100-proof scorn.

00:36:53.680 constantly for decades and decades and decades. And so then all of a sudden, you know, in God's

00:37:01.220 providence, 2020 just, you know, red-pilled a lot of people. And all of a sudden, Doug Wilson

00:37:07.900 didn't sound so crazy anymore. Praise God. And he never was, you know, but like, so all of a sudden

00:37:13.560 he seems pretty reasonable and a bunch of new guys are kind of jumping to the team. And to be fair,

00:37:18.360 I was reading Doug Wilson before 2020 and having some of my own conversions with these kinds of

00:37:23.620 convictions before 2020, but that 2020, I mean, I have to admit, it certainly was a catalyst in the

00:37:30.640 equation that, that, you know, that if I was, if I was radicalized at like a 6.5, 2020 put me at

00:37:36.860 like a 12, you know? And so like, so I was like, let's go. And, and I was not the only one. It's

00:37:43.660 a lot of guys. And so all of a sudden you've on, you know, on the negative side of the equation,

00:37:49.920 you've received nothing but scorn forever. On the positive side, though, you've never had any

00:37:54.660 competition because nobody's ever wanted to compete for who can be hated the most because

00:38:00.380 that's what you win. Before 2020, if you compete with Moscow, you are competing for scorn. That's

00:38:07.120 literally what you're competing for. You're competing for hatred and not hatred from the

00:38:11.560 world. There's plenty of that that has gone Doug Wilson's ways as well. But sadly, you're competing

00:38:18.140 just as much for hatred from Christians, from brothers. And so nobody's going to compete for 0.89

00:38:24.360 that. So my point is they had a monopoly, you know, the CREC had a monopoly. Gondor is the,

00:38:31.020 you know, it's the only city of men that's left in existence. There is no Rohan, there is no other, 0.90

00:38:35.800 you know, and that's probably, you know, I think that's just kind of a bittersweet. It's like,

00:38:42.140 hey, we're being vindicated and a lot of people are appreciating us now and the movement is

00:38:45.580 growing. Also, that's good. But also, there's a lot of young men that we don't... I found it

00:38:54.460 back to that sermon, and praise God for the reconciliation that's happened, but I found

00:38:58.900 it interesting, more than interesting. I found it clarifying that it was said that this is not

00:39:07.480 a CREC church. These are not CREC churches, but CREC adjacent. And I think that's the point.

00:39:13.860 That's what I'm getting at is I think that the Lord in this providence is raising up other men that aren't of your exact tribe.

00:39:24.980 They're still your people.

00:39:26.320 They're still your brothers.

00:39:27.660 They're still, you know, your countrymen, you know, like, but they're not your, you know, they're not cut from the exact same corner of the same cloth.

00:39:35.780 It's adjacent.

00:39:37.440 It's not us.

00:39:38.560 It's somebody else.

00:39:40.520 And I think that there can be, if we're not careful, and we can all do this, I can do

00:39:45.700 this, but if we're not careful, there can be frustration.

00:39:49.640 There can be frustration, one, because someone who is adjacent is not as controllable.

00:39:55.720 You don't have as much authority in the formal ecclesiastical sense.

00:40:00.940 You can influence, and here's the deal, we're young men, we welcome influence.

00:40:05.340 If you want to be an older man who's not going to disparage us and publicly seek to

00:40:09.960 to humiliate us, but you actually are concerned and you want to pick up the phone and call.

00:40:14.380 80-minute calls from James White, I'll take them. Probably he'll need to send me,

00:40:19.980 just to keep it interesting, I'll need him to send me a few texts, screenshots of his cats

00:40:23.680 throughout the 80 minutes, just so that we both are having a great time. But I love James White.

00:40:28.040 I'm down for that call. I love James White. I love Doug Wilson. I love these guys.

00:40:31.980 And so, but my point is influence, yes, but I think that there's a temptation to say these guys, they, I think there's a temptation to say they stole our goods, but didn't join our crew, you know?

00:40:49.000 And if you're not careful, and again, trying not to speculate, but I try to put myself just, you know, sometimes I try to, you know, to steal man and to be charitable to the person that you're having a disagreement with.

00:40:59.680 it's helpful to put yourself in their shoes and just imagine it for a moment. I was thinking,

00:41:03.400 if I spent 40 years building something and everyone hated me for 40 years, I'm not even

00:41:09.600 40 years old. So my entire lifetime, I'm 38 years old. If my entire lifetime, plus a couple of years,

00:41:15.340 I had been faithfully building something, I'm the only one and I've gotten nothing but scorn.

00:41:22.120 And then all of a sudden other guys overnight took me 40 years. And then these other guys in

00:41:27.760 four years are putting up massive numbers with their podcasts and these kinds of things.

00:41:32.860 And I'm listening to them and they're just repeating like 90% of the things that I wrote

00:41:39.300 in my books. And I know that they got it. I know they read my books. I know where they got it from.

00:41:44.060 I know where that theology comes from. But they didn't join us and they're kind of doing their

00:41:51.320 own thing, it would be tempting to disparage. But that's back to the whole point of the show,

00:41:59.360 no more brother wars. And if we want to win, Christendom, the only way Christendom wins,

00:42:05.500 the whole idea of Christendom is this all-encompassing entity that's massive and

00:42:13.020 that you can't even, at a certain point, you don't even know where it began, where does it start and

00:42:18.880 where does it end? And does this blur into that? And does that blur into this? And it's just this

00:42:22.800 massive, like, it's an ocean. Chrysidom is like an ocean. You're just swimming in it. And you

00:42:27.960 don't know the particular current, but it's just all water. It's all encompassing. And if you want

00:42:34.640 to win, you need chrysidom. And if you want chrysidom, chrysidom can't be perfectly organized.

00:42:41.060 It can't, chrysidom, I remember Doug Wilson saying this to Michael O'Fallon on Twitter,

00:42:45.440 it was hilarious. But Michael O'Fallon was like, if we have Christodom, you know, like

00:42:49.520 in a Christian prince, who's that guy going to be? You know, who's the guy who's going to be in

00:42:53.980 charge of all this? And Doug Wilson said, the same guy who's in charge of the free market.

00:42:58.760 You know, and me and another guy commented, like, it's like a majestic great white shark,

00:43:03.680 you know, it breaches for a moment. He doesn't often tweet, but when he does, you know, it's

00:43:06.780 a sight to behold, it's glorious, you know. But my point is that like, that's the difficulty of

00:43:14.280 Christendom is no one person, no one church, no one ministry, and no one denomination like this

00:43:20.920 year gets to control it. Ogden and right response. You can sit there and say, you're not doing it

00:43:28.760 exactly our way. Or you could sit there and rightfully say, this is the fruit of what we

00:43:34.060 worked on for 40 years. And you know what? You'll get no disagreement from me. We'll sit there and

00:43:39.720 say, yep. Yes, sir. The Bible tells me to honor, uh, show honor where honor is due. And you're

00:43:45.420 right. I would not, I would not have the convictions I have today and be doing what I'm

00:43:50.080 doing. If it wasn't for, uh, your faithful service when it was small for decades and you receive

00:43:56.300 nothing but scorn. So you can look at your sons and say, uh, what the heck are they doing?

00:44:04.900 Or you can look at your sons and think, I think it's appropriate to think what the heck are you

00:44:09.580 doing. I'm a father. I've got a kid. I've got a little son. And I'm often thinking that,

00:44:13.480 but there's a difference in saying it publicly to other adults, mocking your son as he's doing 0.98

00:44:18.400 something foolish versus thinking it in your head. But publicly, the only thing that's going 0.85

00:44:22.660 to come out of my mouth is this is my son. Proud of that guy. Look at that chat over there. Look

00:44:28.120 at that. Love it. And then you pull him aside and you say, my dear son. My son. Who has bewitched

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00:47:22.600 We try to do this with our fathers too,

00:47:24.920 with our spiritual fathers.

00:47:26.260 A point we made in the episode,

00:47:28.460 it's worth repeating,

00:47:29.400 is that, believe it or not,

00:47:32.680 we haven't had the exact same mind as Cannon Press

00:47:35.680 on everything they've ever done,

00:47:37.000 or Christchurch, or the CRC.

00:47:38.700 There have even been some things where we're like,

00:47:40.360 I don't know if I would have did that.

00:47:41.780 I don't know if I would have done it that way.

00:47:43.760 But if you go with any of these things

00:47:45.740 and you search through our Twitter feeds

00:47:47.080 or something like that,

00:47:48.080 you will actually not find Dan, Eric, Brian, Ogden

00:47:51.780 counter-signaling those guys.

00:47:53.960 Because those are our friends and fathers.

00:47:56.800 We don't do that because those are our people.

00:47:58.920 those are our guys and and we don't need like there's enough people disagreeing with that

00:48:03.840 they'll handle that there's enough people out there that are going to disagree i actually want

00:48:07.140 their tribe to increase um i don't want them to to lose so sure if they ask me someday you know

00:48:13.640 sitting down at uh whatever wooster's if we grab a pizza at wooster's uh or tapped then maybe we'll

00:48:20.800 and they say what did you think about johnny cash's finger bone a favorite finger maybe i'll

00:48:25.960 giving my opinion on that. But until then, like not really my business. If anything, what I've

00:48:31.020 seen that I think just makes me a little sad sometimes is I'll see the opposite. I'll see

00:48:37.160 a lot of guys who are frustrated and have felt betrayed. And I'm sure some of these guys have

00:48:43.140 been stupid. And some of their feelings of betrayal are ill-founded. It's not legitimate. 1.00

00:48:49.260 It's like, no, you weren't betrayed. You were just, you were stupid. But a lot of the guys 1.00

00:48:54.700 weren't, they weren't stupid. And they're not all just, you know, we say young men, they're not all 0.80

00:48:58.860 19 year old boys. You know, a lot of these guys are like 35, 40 years old. They've started their

00:49:04.480 own business. They've got a wife and six kids that they're catechizing. And some of those guys

00:49:10.080 feel betrayed. And I think when that happens, you at least have to listen and lean in and ask

00:49:14.720 some questions to find if there's something legitimate going on. But my point is like,

00:49:18.660 i've seen those guys and um and and still no matter how much betrayal they feel still um

00:49:28.520 if if moscow steps in it a lot of those guys will not counter um and if moscow gets the scorn

00:49:37.200 these guys who feel betrayed will be the first ones to rush in so like with the middle finger

00:49:43.020 thing uh i i didn't pile on i'm like this this is you know i i think that um i want to do it

00:49:50.160 i have my reasons for why i wouldn't do it um my point is like so i'm not piling on but what i

00:49:56.080 noticed was a ton of our of our guys ogden and right response to georgetown guys um who have

00:50:02.720 felt a little bit hurt by moscow they were the first ones in to defend um every single time that

00:50:09.140 moscow starts getting uh pushback from from people to their left it's these guys who come in uh to

00:50:17.980 their defense it's almost it's almost like sons with with their dad they're like ah yeah i wish

00:50:22.740 dad didn't do that um but but that's the sons anybody outside of the family they start saying

00:50:28.000 something about dad and the sons are like let's find him in a back alley and uh and it's time to

00:50:32.900 put him down you know you don't nobody else gets the right to talk about you know a father that way

00:50:38.640 So people still don't join our church because of Doug Wilson, right. I've lost, I've lost probably

00:50:45.040 just as many church members over Doug Wilson as Doug Wilson has over the years. So, you know,

00:50:50.600 I mean, the bona fides are there. Right. I remember when I was in California, 2019, we lost,

00:50:55.920 um, it was the end of 2018 and then 2019, we lost a third of the church. No, no hyperbole. It was,

00:51:02.620 um it was i think like 46 adult members um that left the church and the number one reason that

00:51:10.040 they all cited was um because uh i was aligning more with doug wilson didn't even know the man

00:51:17.700 hadn't have never spoken to him at that time but i was just saying hey i think he's right about this

00:51:21.880 and i think he's right about that and uh so i've i've you know lost a third of a church over

00:51:28.720 over uh moscow and what yeah what year was it dan that we've how long have we been losing people

00:51:35.200 over doug wilson 2018 2017 yeah it was it started in 2017 and i think 2018 we really started to hit

00:51:41.940 our stride we we peaked probably like 2019 2020 it was yeah and into that 2021 tail yeah that was

00:51:51.100 when we really got a fat tail yeah yep and and now we don't lose people now no one leaves over

00:51:57.080 like pretty much, they don't leave over Doug Wilson. They're, they're, they're pretty much

00:52:00.500 in, in with us on that. But yeah, we've been, we, for the better part of a decade now,

00:52:04.660 it's been like one of my best hobbies has been losing people over Doug Wilson.

00:52:10.120 Yep. All right. Well, any other thoughts from you guys? I feel like this has been helpful.

00:52:14.160 I agree. I think pick up the phone, make a call, send an email. But, but with that,

00:52:20.320 it's been my experience because I have some of this going on right now with, with another pastor.

00:52:24.280 um he's not in the CREC but another you know guy who's he's in our larger Christendom tribe and um

00:52:31.160 but is frustrated um well I'm actually about to record an episode on it but basically he's

00:52:38.700 frustrated because um uh I won't excommunicate uh a member of my church um so uh and that's about

00:52:48.700 all i'll share on it in this setting but um but my point is i you know i tried you know we've both

00:52:54.900 have tried he's tried to talk uh privately and the difficulty is sometimes you do that and you still

00:53:00.720 you just can't get consensus um because sometimes if you let it go too long and i think this is my

00:53:08.280 concern is if you let it go too long um your your the biases are already like this the cement hardens

00:53:17.320 The way that bitterness and gossip and these kinds of things work, we think we'll have a sneaking suspicion that maybe we're out of line.

00:53:28.600 Maybe we're being too presumptuous and those kinds of things.

00:53:32.380 But we'll keep in the back of our mind, we'll console ourselves by saying, well, I'll make it right eventually.

00:53:37.320 Eventually, I'll get around to having that conversation.

00:53:39.900 Eventually, I'll get around to that reconciliation that I know that the Lord would require.

00:53:43.480 but what i have found in in multiple um multiple examples um is that that uh

00:53:51.140 reconciliation doesn't work that way the longer it goes the harder the the cement becomes and you

00:53:57.540 actually sometimes can't go back like you you you like you can get you can get a ceasefire you can

00:54:03.860 get a no more brotherly wars kind of thing but you you can't ever get um like like there's a

00:54:09.560 there is a window. And when it closes, it closes. There's a window of the degree of reconciliation

00:54:14.760 required for true, deep trust and friendship. Because then eventually it's like, okay, I'm

00:54:22.560 reaching out to you, but I've already, it's been months. I've sat on it. I've already really made

00:54:27.480 up my mind. And so now you're telling me these things. I'm asking you questions. I'm finally

00:54:32.120 giving you the opportunity to defend yourself. And you actually are defending yourself and you're

00:54:36.180 answering the questions and you're answering them well, but, um, I don't believe you. I don't believe

00:54:41.240 you. I don't, I just, I don't trust you. So even, even if we do sit down and you do give me the

00:54:47.240 right answers, the ship has sailed. It's just, it's too late. It's too late. And I think this

00:54:52.660 is like why the scriptures don't let the sun go down on your anger. Um, like their anger and

00:54:58.000 bitterness, the Bible gives the, uh, those things a timeline and it's a quick turnaround, a really

00:55:04.680 quick turnaround and if you let it go um then it's just it's eventually yeah again you can get

00:55:12.140 to the point where it's like i'm not going to you know like jacob and esau right so it's years after

00:55:16.600 the fact and you get to the point where it's like i'm no longer going to try to kill you

00:55:20.440 but i don't know if jacob and esau were like and also you know for the rest of our lives we're

00:55:27.020 going to be best friends and let's live you know let's uh let's let's buy a plot of land together

00:55:32.200 and you build a parcel and I'll build a parcel

00:55:35.100 and we'll celebrate each other's birthdays

00:55:36.900 and I'm gonna be the godfather of all your kids.

00:55:39.580 Like, no, that ship's gone.

00:55:42.340 It just, that's gone.

00:55:44.260 Yes, there is some measure of reconciliation,

00:55:46.840 but the degree of reconciliation at that point

00:55:49.200 when you do it years after the fact

00:55:51.920 is basically a ceasefire.

00:55:54.540 That's about as good as it gets, as deep as it gets.

00:55:57.680 But there's never the deep, the deep-founded trust.

00:56:01.700 so be reconciled sooner is my point it's a good word good word agree all right well thanks for

00:56:07.260 coming on the show i appreciate your time and everything that you guys are doing thanks for

00:56:11.260 having us likewise joel thanks for having us okay

The NXR Podcast - October 07, 2024

THE INTERVIEW - When Brothers Fight Against Brothers with The Kings Hall

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