In this episode, Pastor Joel Webbin is joined by Charles Haywood to discuss the possibility of Elon Musk becoming the next president of the United States, as well as the possibility that Donald Trump will become the next President of the USA.
00:01:44.460Great. Well, you are known for probably a few different things, but I'm familiar with you
00:01:50.760from your position that you've articulated with your manifesto on foundationalism. I'm also
00:01:56.520familiar with your position. You are very bullish on Elon Musk, who I take in a true
00:02:04.940Kuyperian spirit as a common grace gift from God. I'd much rather have Elon Musk over Twitter than
00:02:11.180Jack Dorsey or somebody else, probably not as bullish. So I think let's talk about, I'd like
00:02:17.040to get to Elon Musk, but real quick, just for our listeners who are unfamiliar, talk to us about
00:02:22.400foundationalism you've got pushback in the past about you know he's calling for a violent uprising
00:02:28.020and i read the manifesto and immediately you know i was able to i knew what you meant you weren't
00:02:32.960saying hey all the conservatives should uh should pick up you know uh arms and go to war you you
00:02:38.780were saying no no no we we already have violence we had do we not remember 2020 the summer of love
00:02:45.020half the country is you know in flames um eventually it'll get worse and when it gets worse
00:02:51.180inevitably, not from the right, but from the left, this is how the right builds from the ashes. Is
00:02:55.860that a fair interpretation of what you were saying? Absolutely. I mean, my kind of fundamental
00:03:00.380political premise is that the liberalism in Western civilization, Enlightenment-originated
00:03:08.980liberalism, has reached the end of the road because it has finally destroyed our society.
00:03:14.040And therefore, whether we like it or not, something else is going to replace that.
00:03:18.400We have been catechized our whole lives that liberalism, in the sense of Enlightenment liberalism as opposed to political liberalism, which are subtly different things, is something that is inevitable.
00:05:10.280And this idea of chasing it is silly. So the idea of foundationalism is ideology. People always assume that. Like I've seen some things circulating. I reject fascism, communism, foundationalism. I'm like, OK, I mean, those things are that's a category.
00:05:27.500era. Foundationalism isn't an ideology in that sense. As I say, it's a series of thought
00:05:33.280experiments and guideposts to help, once we're past the chaos that inevitably attends the end
00:05:40.100of one system, to build a better, newer system without promising a utopia.
00:05:46.400Right. So what are some of the... I did appreciate how painfully practical it was. I think that's
00:05:52.880well put it was not um it wasn't idol uh ideology it was just very clearly uh these are some of the
00:05:59.660things that not just that we uh shoulds um ought tos like we we ought to do these things but um
00:06:06.160but really more of a prediction than anything saying this is what will likely take place that
00:06:11.660they'll you know uh as we see the west continue to crumble underneath uh its own its own doing
00:06:18.240um naturally the the you know counter revolution is going to be a rerouting in nature that's for
00:06:25.680the record i'm always you know telling some of our listeners on the church that i pastor
00:06:29.180if you want to get into trouble um all you have to do is uh christian theology that's rooted in
00:06:35.380nature there's a war right now again the pietism doesn't bother anybody so if you if you only speak
00:06:41.440in spiritual terms uh about your personal quiet time and devotions and piety and these kinds of
00:06:47.200things nobody's bothered uh if you want to find it seems random but but it's it's not random if
00:06:52.120you want to find the common denominator and uh and every major you know little semi-viral twitter
00:06:57.680spat it's uh it's always something having to do with nature so men should work out and all the
00:07:03.500christians come out and say that's vanity you know or women should dress modestly um or uh men should
00:07:10.060own a gun or a nation should have borders or um i remember eric khan got in trouble for his adoption
00:07:17.000tweet i i was adopted so i'm i'm a big fan of adoption but i knew immediately what he was
00:07:22.300saying uh that there are many cases where you shouldn't adopt and certainly adoption should
00:07:27.920never disparage uh natural you know the being fruitful multiplying and natural born children
00:07:32.940but the point is all those from adoption to working out to modesty to uh to policies on
00:07:39.060borders that i think the common denominator is uh things rooted in nature and and christians i
00:07:45.880I think, for a very long time, especially Baptists, of which I am one, but Protestant Baptists, I
00:07:51.340think, have despised natural theology, despised nature, anything rooted in that. And so I
00:07:57.520appreciated foundationalism because for that very reason, it wasn't just mere ideology or even mere
00:08:04.540theology. It was just saying, this is the world that God has made. These are the principles that
00:08:10.020he's baked into the equation. They work. Anything that goes against this utterly fails, inevitably,
00:08:15.880Um, so there will be a return to these things. Any response to that?
00:08:21.000No, I think that's entirely right. I mean, I use the word reality rather than nature,
00:08:24.400but those things are the same thing. And I think, I mean, much of what I, the 12 pillars
00:08:29.020of foundationalism revolve around that, your sexual realism, the subordination of, of, uh,
00:08:34.820economics to politics, um, you know, nationalism, not globalism. These things are all just kind
00:08:40.340of obvious in the sense that a normal human being kind of surveying the world around him would say,
00:08:45.580well, these are the obvious kind of general paths to take when we're setting up a society.
00:08:50.820I do kind of part ways, and I get a fair bit of grief for the fact that I'm very big at the same time on space exploration,
00:08:58.140and I'm generally speaking a techno-optimist.
00:09:08.720I think that, as I like to say, the works of man under the eyes of God.
00:09:13.000so uh you know that's where the the space and techno optimism comes in nonetheless that that's
00:09:19.160a a relative only part of it so it's all about nature let's talk i i want to talk about the
00:09:26.340spacing and that'll transition really well with elon musk you know and spacex but before we do
00:09:30.780could you just give us the 12 pillars and maybe just i i know i i know that's a lot but at least
00:09:37.280just list them you don't have to go into detail explaining them but just for the listeners like
00:09:41.160what, what are these 12 pillars of foundationalism? Absolutely. I would be happy to list the 12
00:09:45.220pillars of foundational, but I'm going to have to call up my own manifesto, uh, here because I,
00:09:49.740I can't, uh, I don't have them memorized per se. It's not like the, uh, the Lord's prayer. Okay.
00:09:54.900So the first pillar, space, second pillar, a mixed government of limited ends and unlimited means,
00:10:02.700uh, virtue politics, sexual realism, the subordination of economics to politics,
00:10:09.860intermediary institutions, subsidiarity, hierarchy and order, Christian religion,
00:10:18.380high culture, techno-optimism, and nationalism, not globalism.
00:10:24.820Great. Great. So let's talk about the spacing because I think you'll find a friend in me
00:10:30.420because now I'm not as bullish as you are on the particular person of Elon Musk,
00:10:35.740But in terms of space exploration, you know, I've gotten mutuals and friends, dear Christians that I love who, you know, who are, they don't even, they think it's all a sham.
00:10:48.500You know, like they don't think we've been to the moon.
00:10:50.260I always tell people, you know, if somebody, you know, is questioning the moon landing, you need to show them that you're an even bigger conspiracist than they are.
00:11:00.040So you need to respond by saying, you believe in the moon?
00:16:40.020But he writes a bunch of interesting things.
00:16:41.800And one of his points is that the – he's actually an excellent writer – as energy extraction becomes more and more expensive, there necessarily becomes a point at which the value you get out of extracting a unit of energy is exceeded by the energy you put into extracting that unit, which is undoubtedly the case unless there's very significant regeneration.
00:17:04.580but oil isn't going to get us to space that is you know we need something else that is a you can't
00:17:11.460carry an oil tanker to space in order to to actually achieve things in space i mean yes you
00:17:16.220can send probes around and so on but ultimately you can't really do uh the things that are necessary
00:17:22.340to do in space without some uh more compact source of energy and you know normally when someone says
00:17:31.080things to me, I say that's a first step fallacy. That is, you can imagine that this thing is
00:17:34.980possible, so you predict it's possible. But I'm not predicting this is possible. All I'm saying
00:17:38.840is that we're a smart group of people, we here in America, and we here more broadly in the West
00:17:44.760and in some other countries, nations as well. Instead of focusing on making a Zempik, we need
00:17:50.520to be focusing on finding new energy sources. And maybe that's possible, maybe it's not.
00:17:55.700But even if we maintain using fossil fuels because they don't run out as fast as we expected, for whatever reason, we still need new energy sources.
00:18:48.740But it's also true that electrical generation, which is what fission is, is only part of the energy puzzle.
00:18:55.280So even if we had much cheaper electricity, that wouldn't solve some of our other resource problems.
00:19:01.680Gotcha. All right. Well, talk about Elon Musk. Why are you so bullish on him?
00:19:06.840So for years, I mean, I kind of ignored Elon Musk.
00:19:11.460I mean, he's basically my age, almost exactly my age.
00:19:14.020and uh he you know he was this guy and he was in silicon valley and i knew vaguely who he was with
00:19:19.420paypal and so on and you know i had you know people who who kind of knew him distantly and
00:19:25.420so on but like if you would ask me like i always confused him with peter tia like which one's
00:19:29.360german and which one in south african like okay you know guy guys born abroad um and then i started
00:19:35.040paying a bit more attention a couple a couple years ago and my my original opinion of musk was
00:19:40.380you know interesting guy very entrepreneurial and i think i i first the first thing i wrote
00:19:46.820about him like five years ago i said he occupied a strange twilight land between con man and genius
00:19:52.420and uh and i think that's still true to a certain extent but what's become clear is that as the
00:19:58.600regime that rules us fails uh something ultimately arises in order to contest regime supremacy in any
00:20:08.000failing system. And Musk is the, I think has the blend of things that make him that likely
00:20:14.760challenger. First of all, he has enormous wealth, which is always a useful thing. His personality
00:20:20.260is very, you know, he claims to be on the, a little bit on the spectrum, you know, Asperger's
00:20:24.440I'm not sure that's true or not. I think diagnosis is overrated, but he's not agreeable in the sense
00:20:29.940of the psychological trait of agreeableness. He has no interest in conforming to social norms
00:20:34.920or in being in, I mean, I think he does like to be invited to people's parties who I don't think
00:20:41.160he should associate with, but he's not desperate for people to pat him on the head. But most
00:20:45.980importantly, you're Musk, you're an atheist, more or less, I think maybe 100%, maybe just agnostic
00:20:52.080or something. You have this goal, which is undoubtedly, and everyone agrees on this,
00:20:57.660the only thing he really, really cares about, which is getting to Mars. And he has maybe 20
00:21:03.500years left to get to Mars. He's early 50s, and so maybe 25 years, but time and chance happeneth
00:21:10.800to them all. And so if you're Musk, you look around and you see that the regime will never
00:21:16.400let you get to Mars because they'll both hamstring you. You'll have to have Shaniqua running your
00:21:21.600engineering or else you'll have to pay a giant fine. They stole $55 billion from him a couple
00:21:27.420of weeks ago in order to either punish him for his free speech on Twitter or to indicate to him
00:21:35.040he better play ball or what have you. And his only response to that was, well, I'm going to
00:21:40.660reincorporate in Texas. Now, Elon Musk doesn't talk to me, but I can assure you that his internal
00:21:45.080thought process was not reincorporation is going to show him. My suspicion is he was a lot angrier,
00:21:54.400But the fact that he didn't say something that was angry is actually indicative of the fact that I'm right, that he's somewhere in there and what level of consciousness isn't clear to me.
00:22:05.660He's saying that I have to completely destroy the existing regime and remake things in order to achieve my life goals.
00:22:14.520Whether they'll succeed at that is not clear, but it's pretty clear that that's – there's really no – everyone's – it's like a train track, right?
00:22:22.800Everyone's on their train track, going down their train track.
00:27:21.960If Tesla disappeared tomorrow, I would maintain the exact same thing.
00:27:26.060I mean, yes, his health would greatly diminish.
00:27:28.360But fundamentally, he's been successful in repeated business enterprises, and it's those talents or in part those talents that I think are relevant.
00:27:38.760Yeah, it's nice that Tesla makes him the richest man in the world, but being the richest man in the world is really a secondary thing.
00:27:45.960But you want to start to look for tells in his thinking as it changes.
00:27:51.500And I'm fond of saying that the ultimate tell is forming a private security force.
00:27:57.560That is, it makes perfect sense. He's down in Texas. And if he sees the regime starting to fall apart, that, well, we need to have a private security force. So he and Eric Prince or whoever get together and hire 20,000 ex-special ops guys who are all super based and they do like mall cop stuff. But everybody knows they're not meant as mall cops. But with the Texas government, you could get away with this.
00:28:21.000So, again, he hasn't said anything like this, but it's inevitable that if you're a guy like Musk and if the premise is that he's decided the regime has to go, the question is, at what point do I take more aggressive action than I'm taking now?
00:28:34.540And when do I stop the angry tweets and start building the private security force?
00:28:39.560And if I was a betting man, having no information, it was probably right around the time that he made that tweet about reincorporating in Texas.
00:28:47.960Because, again, I think that's how like if you if they stole from you a substantial portion of your livelihood that you had slaved over night and day for many years, reaching this ludicrous goal and being rewarded for it.
00:29:00.760And they some, you know, fat H.R. ho Delaware chancery judge had just stolen from you.
00:29:06.680You would probably not say, you know, limit your reaction to I'm going to reincorporate my company in Texas because that'll show Delaware.
00:29:16.040I mean, that's not really what he was thinking.
00:29:44.480So and I expect that pressure to arise as pressures always arise soon.
00:29:49.900So if I was Musk and I would basically wait to see what happens through the rest of 2024 and be making a few discreet inquiries about how it might be possible for me to assemble some guys who might help me out.
00:30:01.740Because I think that the necessary circumstances for that to happen are probably, if not exactly imminent, certainly in the near term future, not in the 2030s.
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00:33:58.400But you'll see how it's really a second. The number one most important characteristic for an entrepreneur probably is being decisive.
00:34:05.380And he talks about this a lot. Like you must be continuously making decisions, even if the decisions are wrong, because that's what the other people want.
00:34:13.680The people under you demand you make decisions. And most people hate making decisions.
00:34:18.640So I think that there is. Twitter, I think he's doing a fine job with Twitter.
00:34:25.560I think it's probably occasional missteps with people being censored.
00:34:29.500I think that he really needs to go back to the thing that he was originally talking about, about not just more transparency about limitations and bans, but also no permanent bans other than for like, you know, obvious criminal activity or what have you.
00:34:44.880Um, but I think that the fact that the people who are Musk haters, the people who are always
00:34:52.820saying, you know, he's controlled opposition and what have you, they have very little evidence
00:34:56.160for that. Most, most of that is they pick at these things that are more easily explainable
00:35:01.120as either just, you know, not part of an overall plan or something that's being done to pour oil
00:35:07.520on the waters rather than getting in fights all the time. And they say, well, that proves that
00:35:11.840he's worthless i mean the the logical leap there is is i think uh you know not supportable okay
00:35:19.500all right let's move from musk uh here's one more thing that i wanted to pick your brain
00:35:24.320on um trump i think he'll be president what do you think oh yes i i keep reposting my tweet from
00:35:31.840last year saying uh you're telling people to bookmark this tweet that trump is guaranteed
00:35:36.560to be president unless he actually dies, no matter what, Trump will be president, and
00:35:42.800that significant social unrest will immediately follow that.
00:35:47.840So far, we're six or seven months in from my tweet, and I feel strong retweeting it.
00:36:06.240I think the only way I could see it not happening is if he if he dies, you know, natural causes and accidents, something like that.
00:36:13.780Or I do think that there's I'm not saying it's a 50 percent like that high, but I think that there is a higher likelihood of Trump being assassinated than any other president that I since JFK.
00:37:04.520What's some of the unrest? Any specifics on that in terms of just the liberal girls with blue hair falling to their knees and just more meme material or anything specific in terms of this unrest when Trump takes office?
00:37:19.880One of the fundamental principles, and you see this throughout the 20th century and into the 21st century, is fundamental principles of the left is that progress can never move backwards.
00:37:37.600Aaron McIntyre talks about this a lot, the ratchet effect.
00:37:40.760But a corollary to that is that the left regards any actual or perceived diminution of their power as an existential threat justifying actual war and in many cases requiring actual war.
00:37:57.940And you see this throughout history. My favorite example is actually the Finnish civil war of 1918, of all things, where the an obscure little civil war, which killed one percent of the population of the country in three months.
00:38:10.800But it was started because the left was getting more and more power and then they lost an election and they immediately started a civil war.
00:38:17.120And even though most of the people on the left were like, it's pretty stupid to start a civil war because we're going to lose, which they did.
00:38:24.420But the left is always run not by some wise counsel of people, but by its most extreme elements.
00:38:32.820This is necessarily the case in all left movements.
00:38:35.220So it's necessarily the case that when Trump wins, actual violence of the Civil War type, not like actual Civil War, but like actual military style violence, as opposed to like blue haired people screaming or even the kind of riots we saw after Trump's inauguration in 2016 is inevitable.
00:38:55.700I, that can be what that is. I mean, almost certainly you would have the kind of degenerate top military brass call for military action against Trump. You would have lots of low level Antifa people doing much more kinetic kind of activity directed, not at Trump directly, but at creating enough chaos that Trump will not be able to take, will not be able to take office.
00:39:23.240hmm yeah i think you're probably right okay let's go ahead and land the plane here this
00:39:29.940has been really helpful who are some other voices and not just uh you know not just the old dead
00:39:36.120guys lord knows we appreciate them um but but some some living people not just authors but guys who
00:39:44.360are talking they're they're speaking places they have a podcast or whatever that that you think
00:39:49.540are insightful who are some people that uh we should listen to i think i mentioned one which
00:39:54.500is r on mcintyre yeah he has a youtube channel i agree there's a lot of stuff i listen to him
00:39:58.700there's a young rising guy i've actually been on his his podcast he was just an andrew clavin
00:40:03.300not jay burden who's uh an anon he does he he he's 24 but he actually sounds very foundationalist
00:40:10.300they're talking stuff he's not he's not some kind of haywood clone but he jay burden it's uh
00:40:14.900The name is taken from Robert Penn Warren's book, All the King's Men.
00:42:29.300Was it Martin Luther who said something about he realized that he had taken the irrevocable step when he ate sausages in Lent or something like that?