The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Are “Trad-Wives” Just A Sham？

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00:00:26.800 If you've spent any time in Christian Twitter circles over the past few years,

00:00:32.000 then you've probably come across the name Patriarchy Hannah. 0.52

00:00:36.160 With her bold advocacy for traditional femininity and biblical patriarchy and the trad wife lifestyle,

00:00:43.800 she built a following of nearly 30,000 people and positioned herself as a voice in the online push for Christian homemaking and submission. 0.63

00:00:53.040 She claimed to be a devoted wife, married to a contractor named Tony, and a mother to 14 children.

00:01:01.660 Her posts were filled with strong rebukes of modern feminism, 0.98

00:01:05.980 encouragements for women to embrace submission,

00:01:09.080 and even some sharp critiques for other Christian women in the public sphere.

00:01:15.080 But as of this past week, everything about Patriarchy Hannah has unraveled.

00:01:20.040 The account has been exposed as a fabrication, run not by a married mother of 14 children, but by a single childless woman named Jennifer, a 37-year-old from Arkansas.

00:01:34.680 A deep dive into public records, receipts, and past online activity revealed that her husband, Tony, doesn't exist.

00:01:43.560 Her family life was invented, and the house that she claimed her husband built was actually constructed by a completely unrelated developer.

00:01:52.840 Now, some are celebrating this revelation as proof that the entire online patriarchal movement is built on deception.

00:02:00.840 They argue that trad influencers are merely cosplayers, and that many who follow them are fetishists.

00:02:08.540 So what does this all mean?

00:02:09.660 To be sure, Patriarchy Hannah deceived many, and it's worth noting that she has publicly apologized.

00:02:16.760 But this does not mean that the goals of patriarchy and the Trad Wife movement are illegitimate.

00:02:23.320 If anything, it shows that Christian women, and Christian men for that matter, are in vital need of real-life discipleship.

00:02:31.080 The women, in their case, require discipleship in how to keep their homes, how to be lovers of children, and how to joyfully submit to their own husband.

00:02:41.640 This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors.

00:02:51.540 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash rightresponseministries

00:02:58.860 or you can donate by going to rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.

00:03:06.260 As we have said before, sometimes you have to LARP before you can fly.

00:03:12.480 Rather than disparaging the LARPers, we should continue to extol godly femininity

00:03:17.840 and all women who aspire to develop it. 0.76

00:03:21.540 Tune in now with special guest Eric Kahn as we set the record straight and defend the lost virtue of patriarchy and Christian femininity. 0.98

00:03:42.120 That's it, boys. Pack it up. It's time to go home. We're so over. 1.00

00:03:46.840 as far as i can tell from the interweb um a woman lied therefore feminism is true 1.00

00:03:52.980 all the waves of it one two three and four one two three and four that's right one woman lied 1.00

00:03:58.780 feminism is true pack it up patriarchy it's so over today we are joined by a special guest

00:04:05.680 my spirit animal who honestly at this point let's just let's be honest i'm not even proud

00:04:10.420 about this but um it is the sad reality that i must admit uh there was a time when people would

00:04:15.580 say you know you um you know if you're not careful you're going to be just as um just as hated

00:04:22.480 online as eric khan and now people say who's eric khan eric welcome to the show thanks for coming

00:04:31.140 introduce yourself awesome thanks for having me yeah absolutely joel i'm happy to pass that

00:04:35.760 mandle on to you by the way on the interwebs congratulations and condolences yeah seriously

00:04:42.420 seriously okay so this is what we're gonna do uh we have our very own wesley todd we've got

00:04:47.940 michael belch uh myself and eric con is a special guest the reason we invited eric one because he's

00:04:53.280 a friend and we love him uh two because he's been i think a really consistent and steady faithful

00:04:58.720 voice on this subject of biblical patriarchy for quite a while um multiple years and i remember

00:05:06.180 you know even i don't know when did you start uh would you start a hard man podcast when did that

00:05:12.880 start uh so it started in 2020 uh really kind of hitting that hard about april i think of 2020

00:05:19.460 covid was kicking off that's when we started cool yeah i just i remember listening to it i was going

00:05:25.780 to say about five years ago and so that checks i wanted to make sure i didn't say five years ago

00:05:29.980 and you're like i started it you know last week you know but uh so that yeah the math checks out

00:05:33.760 there. And I remember being blessed by your content and learning a lot from it, your podcast,

00:05:38.860 as well as It's Good to Be a Man. I remember listening to that back in the day. So we want

00:05:42.840 to have Eric on because he speaks to this topic quite frequently, also because he's a friend and

00:05:46.780 also because you and I were both named recently in a podcast. And we're going to show some clips

00:05:54.920 from that. And we're going to do our best not to be bombastic and not to be unnecessarily, you know,

00:05:59.820 we don't want to be mean-spirited, partly because we want to be consistent with our view. We believe

00:06:06.060 in biblical patriarchy. We believe that's what the Bible espouses, gender piety, whatever term

00:06:10.520 you want to use. And so, because of that, we don't want to unnecessarily pick fights with 0.88

00:06:17.760 the fair sex. Now, that said, if the fair sex chooses to pick a fight with us, we'll finish it. 1.00

00:06:26.040 No, I'm just kidding. No, but if the Ferris X chooses to pick a fight with us and their platform is significant enough within, you know, meaningful Christian circles, then there are times where it just simply merits clarification. 0.81

00:06:39.740 That's how I feel. What do you think, Eric?

00:06:42.360 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been told picking fights with women online is like kicking puppies on stage.

00:06:49.200 so we try to avoid that if at all possible uh but yeah i think especially as we think pastorally

00:06:54.940 just for our ladies um you know we'll talk about ali bestucky i think in a minute uh but we had

00:07:01.080 people in our congregation asking about that in the patriarchy hannah situation so i think in that

00:07:05.740 case you know it definitely warrants a response hopefully you know to be pastoral and encourage

00:07:11.060 our ladies no patriarchy is not dead no the principles didn't fail just because uh you know

00:07:16.140 somebody was grifting or you know larping in a you know unrighteous way right amen yeah so we

00:07:22.400 want to bring clarity to this uh primarily for women i feel like most of the guys don't really

00:07:28.100 care you know except for the bad faithless like the guys who were already soft complementarian

00:07:33.580 and already didn't like patriarchy and are just looking for you know they had a confirmation

00:07:37.380 bias and this is the confirmation you know so they were just looking for um low-hanging fruit

00:07:42.220 a gotcha kind of moment uh so there's some of those those guys um but other than those guys

00:07:47.520 most of the you know the men who are in patriarchal circles are like so what why is why is it a big

00:07:53.500 deal but i think some of the women um are genuinely hurt in part because i think some of them um

00:07:59.280 really did interact with patriarchy hannah at you know some of them you know lesser and more degrees

00:08:04.900 depending on the person but some of them you know really you know they were following her page

00:08:08.960 pretty intently and learning things from her, maybe even interacted with her some in private

00:08:15.140 messages or whatever it might have been, or tuned into her podcast, or tuned into a lot of the

00:08:22.040 spaces that I didn't really, you know, I think I listened to one that Michael Foster was leading,

00:08:30.660 but she was an administrator on that Twitter space. And then, and there might have been one

00:08:36.820 more. But I did notice, you know, because your, your phone, every time you open the X app, it

00:08:41.660 alerts you, you know, what these spaces are happening. And I did notice, you know, she did

00:08:45.040 a lot of spaces. And so I think there were women who, you know, whether it was following her

00:08:48.420 account on X or hopping in the spaces that were done on a semi regular basis, pretty frequently.

00:08:54.900 Most of the ones that I saw, I was alerted because they were led by Michael Foster, you know, he led

00:08:58.840 at least a couple dozen with her. And, and when I say with her, I don't mean like she was speaking

00:09:04.700 all the time but she was the administrator i guess i i don't even know really how it works but

00:09:09.200 apparently um i don't know you there's such a thing as being good at hosting a space and she 0.67

00:09:14.600 was doing that and for a lot of guys in our circle so for those women who were you know in you know

00:09:20.380 having those relational touch points um some of them were hurt and so i think it merits um as best

00:09:27.060 we can like uh some encouragement to those women um some clarifications of what biblical patriarchy

00:09:33.000 is, um, and, and the path forward so that we can move on. And that's kind of what we want to do.

00:09:39.840 So Eric, if there's anything that you want to say, go ahead and say it. If not, we'll go ahead

00:09:43.720 and throw on the first clip from a recent podcast from Ali Beth Stuckey. Yeah, I think just the one

00:09:50.700 thing it kind of to contextualize everything. One of the things I've heard is, you know, Joel,

00:09:55.380 you and Eric, you know, you platform this lady. And just to be clear, uh, I was invited to, uh,

00:10:01.000 I think it was billed as I talked to my husband, Tony, who we now know didn't exist.

00:10:06.680 I've talked to him.

00:10:07.560 This is mainly for ladies who have questions about your ministry and patriarchy.

00:10:11.920 So I went on there and was just answering objections.

00:10:15.280 This is pretty standard fare, I think, for anybody who's in public space that you get requests to do podcasts.

00:10:21.220 And so we did that, interacted with some posts.

00:10:25.160 Most of the stuff I saw from her over the years was, you know, I thought decently solid.

00:10:29.940 and uh so that's kind of limited uh i definitely wouldn't say like oh yeah we platformed uh this

00:10:36.640 person but um yeah that's kind of the extent of of at least my involvement right yeah same with

00:10:43.660 me i went on one of her podcasts so same thing neither eric or i uh had uh hannah patriarchy

00:10:49.100 on our platform but you went on her podcast once i went on her podcast once um and same thing i you

00:10:54.520 know, I specifically asked her, I remember it was probably close to two years ago at this point. So

00:11:00.120 it was after the clip went viral of me talking about a husband's authority in the home. And what

00:11:04.760 does that mean? Is it merely hypothetical? Is it just ethereal? Or is it actual authority? Are

00:11:10.240 there practical implications? And I use as an example, that a husband has authority even over

00:11:15.300 the spiritual diet of his wife and children, not just the children, but also his wife, that he

00:11:20.680 actually has the authority to say you know what i don't want you to read that we can read that

00:11:24.540 together at a later time right now i don't have time for it so in the meantime let's go ahead and

00:11:29.460 read something else and people are like what you can't you can't say that and of course the answer

00:11:33.980 is uh yes you can you absolutely can a husband has authority or he doesn't and i'm of the

00:11:40.140 persuasion that he does uh wives submit to your husbands in everything so um it was after that

00:11:46.400 And complementarians lost their mind because they're like, wait a second, this guy actually

00:11:51.880 believes male headship and he's not keeping in step with complementarianism, which is

00:11:56.600 the facade of male headship, but doesn't actually follow through in practice whatsoever.

00:12:02.200 So the complementarians who are functionally egalitarians were very, very, very offended.

00:12:07.240 And so she asked me to come on her podcast and she even told me up front, I remember

00:12:10.980 her saying, it's really small.

00:12:12.600 it's just you know basically a few women that listen and i don't know i don't know the metrics

00:12:17.300 of her podcast i you know that's i think that's probably true and um and so anyway so i was like

00:12:22.600 hey do you want to do video and she was like no audio only that checks out now now that makes

00:12:26.820 sense um and then you know right before we recorded you know she gave me a link and i tuned in when

00:12:31.360 the day came and i asked her specifically i said is your husband going to be a part of it you know

00:12:35.080 do you have his permission i asked those questions and she said oh yes absolutely um before any of

00:12:40.440 this is released. He's, he's outworking. He's giving me his permission. I'm going to record

00:12:44.240 it. And before I release any of my podcast, he always listens to the audio and goes over it

00:12:49.580 first. And I was like, great. So yeah. And I'm sure it was probably something similar with you.

00:12:55.180 All right. Are we ready to get into our first clip? Yep. Okay. Here we go. I truly think that

00:13:02.000 this is like intentional. I think that she's trolling these people. I mean, it's just so,

00:13:07.180 so silly and i'm just like curious did these men check with hannah's husband before going on her

00:13:12.680 podcast because these men have criticized me for having a platform now it's interesting because a 0.81

00:13:18.880 lot of these men like you know people like joel webin who have told me you know i shouldn't be

00:13:23.520 on the uh you know front lines of the culture wars all right there's our first clip what do

00:13:33.420 think man this joel webin this joel webin guy seems really terrible uh based on that i'm kind

00:13:39.880 of offended at you joel okay she's about to name you too there i know i know i know uh it is actually

00:13:46.560 interesting though obviously we answered one of the objections uh already but of course you know

00:13:52.380 she was uh telling us that her husband was involved tony who doesn't exist uh of course

00:13:58.480 we know that i do also think it's interesting though because there's this desire to portray

00:14:04.220 all of the patriarchy camp as particularly larpy in the past she's called it the red pill

00:14:09.940 manosphere trad wife uh kind of interesting because i've never associated with those labels

00:14:16.020 if anything i've generally criticized them but i think you know this i think she's smart this

00:14:21.940 is a smart play associate uh an oppositional theological position with probably the easiest

00:14:28.260 target which would be you know somebody who just got caught lying as though that represents all of

00:14:34.340 us uh in our camp which of course it doesn't we're leaning back on the reformers and calvin

00:14:39.560 and knox and vermigli and luther and and stuff like that but uh that of course is not going to

00:14:45.300 be the talking point here yeah right well said i wanted to pick up too eric you're like well i

00:14:49.920 never associated with the label which is true i've followed you for years and you've never been like

00:14:53.720 I'm the red pill guy. I'm the trad guy. But I think the reason that you don't, and I would

00:14:58.360 think say this of all of us in the room, is movements like that, and that includes good

00:15:02.540 one, like Trad Wife and all of those, they inherently take people that are very susceptible

00:15:06.700 to wanting to be involved in something. So imagine you don't have a great home life and you hear

00:15:11.180 someone come along and they say, you know, the real problem in your life is, you know, you're

00:15:14.640 not submitting to your husband, you're not dressing modestly, you're not taking care of

00:15:17.420 things in the home. If you're unhappy with the way your life is or unhappy with your marriage,

00:15:21.280 Well, great news.

00:15:21.840 I have this wonderful pill.

00:15:23.300 And there's a lot of people, whether that be the Trad Life Movement.

00:15:26.880 I remember social justice, for instance.

00:15:28.480 I never posted the black square, but there were so many people that were like, this is

00:15:31.980 the thing I'm going to attach to.

00:15:33.200 This is the thing I'm going to make to be my identity.

00:15:35.200 This is the thing I'm going to get to be invested in.

00:15:37.940 And there's a lot of people that they'll get in a movement and they'll go and they'll

00:15:40.600 have steam for two years and then die off.

00:15:42.460 And then it'll be something new and they're on to something else and this and that and

00:15:45.300 the other.

00:15:46.040 So you said that I've never associated with it.

00:15:47.480 And I think that's a good instinct to have. 0.99

00:15:49.120 If everybody's posting a black square for social justice on Instagram, probably not 0.59

00:15:52.980 the best time to do it. 0.98

00:15:54.100 Tons of people are dressing up.

00:15:55.800 They're teaching everything in the closet, replacing it with a line of dresses, starting

00:15:59.140 the sourdough baking company.

00:16:00.760 Probably that six-month time period is not the best time to be like, you know what?

00:16:04.900 I got to start mine too in my neighborhood.

00:16:07.040 The best type of movements, the best types of change, it's over years and they're habits

00:16:11.000 that are kept up for life.

00:16:12.420 And that's just not conducive to something that's a flash in the pan, very exciting,

00:16:15.980 has a lot of people that are really into it all of a sudden.

00:16:18.060 that doesn't create the ground the soil for a good pattern of life that lasts yeah there's a

00:16:24.980 lot of things that multiple elements that can be appealing one like you already said Wes is just

00:16:29.920 the desire for community belonging relationship which is a good desire right so a lot of people

00:16:34.860 who get pulled into flash in the pan type movements it really can be simply that they're

00:16:41.660 lonely that can be a big part of it is just wanting friendship in addition to that there's

00:16:47.280 not just the desire for community but also the desire to be seen as virtuous and so um whether

00:16:53.360 it was social justice and the black square it's like look at me i'm virtuous um or whether it's

00:16:58.820 you know trad life you know like so if uh women are you know constantly flooding social media

00:17:04.240 with pictures of themselves in bikinis and you're showing a picture with you and your children in a 0.97

00:17:09.540 sundress um that's good and i would love for social media to be flooded with that instead

00:17:14.680 that is objectively good. But the desires, in terms of your incentives and motives, hidden

00:17:19.000 motives of the heart, it could be to honor God. It could also be simply to be viewed as being

00:17:23.660 virtuous, morally superior to those who are scantily clad. But a lot of that gets down to,

00:17:30.020 again, I think the thing that I want to point out is those don't have any bearing over whether or

00:17:38.540 not something is objectively moral and true. What you're talking about is at the individual

00:17:44.600 level what the incentives or hidden motives of their heart, inward motives, might be for somebody

00:17:49.200 hopping on board. But the fact that a movement or a set of doctrinal principles or whatever it might

00:17:56.480 be, or even an individual local church, that it might attract people for the wrong reasons,

00:18:01.940 it's a fallacy to say that that definitively and objectively means that this church or this

00:18:07.520 movement or this doctrinal belief system is somehow inherently flawed, that it's morally

00:18:14.400 flawed because it attracted uh the wrong person that's just um that's that doesn't um that's

00:18:21.340 that's guilt by association that's a fallacy um and so uh that that's the only thing that i would

00:18:27.100 want to add to it michael do you have anything you want to say well i do i want to um be up front

00:18:31.740 almost a year ago i didn't look back and see the exact date that we did it but about a year ago we

00:18:36.740 did an episode and it was which way western woman and it was witchcraft or trad wife right and so

00:18:43.280 So, you know, in that episode, we were commending the virtues of the Tradwife movement.

00:18:47.760 However, Eric, something I heard you say once a while ago, well, this is years ago, you said that one of the problems in the 50s and 60s was that as the domestic duties became easier because of machinery and canned goods, things like that,

00:19:08.220 one of the failures of men was that we did not figure out how to continue to involve our wives

00:19:16.060 women in the process of the creation mandate of being fruitful of subduing the earth and we kind

00:19:23.960 of in some ways like modern society just left women kind of twiddling their thumbs so i'm i'm

00:19:29.800 curious eric what you think um you know sourdough and sundresses is not enough right but i think we

00:19:37.000 would all say it's a step in the right direction but i'm curious um if your perspective is still

00:19:42.460 well we need to be creative and thoughtful about how we encourage our wives and dads their their

00:19:51.960 daughters in knowing how to be keepers at home when the roomba vacuum can you know can clean the 0.97

00:19:59.360 floor for them right um so i'm i'm just curious yes trad wife is a good impulse in the right 0.87

00:20:05.320 direction, but it's not enough, obviously. Yeah, I think really what it's, trad wife is like the

00:20:10.840 tip of the iceberg, but I think what women and men, too, who are interested in this sort of topic,

00:20:15.800 I think what they're actually looking for is an old principle that we would have called in

00:20:19.520 Christendom, the productive household. So when you read Proverbs 31, you see a woman who is working,

00:20:25.180 she's busy with a number of activities that are associated with her household. She's actually

00:20:30.340 involved in some ways, usually, at least in a tertiary way with her husband's business,

00:20:35.880 whether that's maybe doing some bookkeeping, your husband's a welder or something like that,

00:20:40.020 and you're involved in it somehow, the daughters would have been involved in those things too.

00:20:45.760 So I think really the 50s is kind of, as Christendom falls apart, and the productive

00:20:51.380 household is gone, they still maintain a little bit of the moral virtue of the household.

00:20:56.680 But it's really more of what we think of today as like the nuclear family,

00:21:00.340 Yeah, leave it to Beaver. There's a dad, there's a mom. But it's already broken down a little bit at that point because dad's going off to a job by himself. Mom just kind of stays at home. Kids go to a public school. It was definitely more wholesome than today, but it's still a denigration of what the biblical household, I think, pattern is supposed to be.

00:21:20.720 So, yeah, particularly having women see that the sourdough is just part of a bigger hole and a bigger vision for the productive household. 0.70

00:21:30.960 And I think one of the things that we've tried to do, you know, I said we weren't involved in the Red Pill, Manosphere, Trad Wife, whatever. 0.97

00:21:37.820 But one of the things we definitely have done, and I think Joel's done this as well, is we've looked at those cultural trends and we've seen some of those hungers for the old productive household.

00:21:46.100 And we've said sort of in the, you know, Paul going into the area of Pegasus and saying, yeah, actually, some of the things that you're talking about, it's the unknown God.

00:21:54.480 But let me tell you the real story here. The reason we have so much father hunger in the land is actually because something has gone catastrophically wrong with society.

00:22:04.300 And so we want to correct some of those errors. We do want to speak to the guys who are really hungry for, you know, Andrew Tate content, for example, without saying, yeah, I'm part of the red pill movement.

00:22:15.180 We're obviously going to critique Andrew Tate, but we're going to speak to that desire.

00:22:19.320 And I think you see that across society, that people really are longing, and wives in particular,

00:22:25.320 not just to be cute on the fainting couch, but to actually be involved in the work that

00:22:31.820 her husband is doing and then bringing the children into that work as well.

00:22:35.540 Sourdough could be a part of it, but it's actually a much greater vision than just that.

00:22:40.280 Right, because it's getting at virtues underneath, like what are dresses getting at underneath?

00:22:44.280 modesty and beauty modesty without being frumpy modesty with elegance feminine feminine beauty

00:22:51.700 right what is sourdough getting it underneath provision right submission warmth so by all

00:22:56.640 means take the things underneath what we talk about all the time with masculinity what like

00:23:00.840 what is working out getting underneath longevity longevity of life stability security protection

00:23:07.160 right discipline what about a guy who's being ambitious and trying to make more money so long

00:23:12.380 as he's doing it ethically without neglecting his other duties, well, that's provision.

00:23:17.260 Like these are, this is the right direction.

00:23:19.960 So, these are things that we don't want to disparage.

00:23:21.960 These are things that we want to encourage, and we want to encourage them and then come

00:23:25.360 alongside them and start to provide some of the theological, biblical underpinnings, like

00:23:30.860 Eric was talking about, for them to say, this is right, let me tell you why.

00:23:34.540 This is good, let me tell you why, and show them the biblical reasoning, and then also

00:23:38.240 show them historically how this is how all the world has thought, even outside of Christian

00:23:44.400 nations, even pagan nations have thought this way. All the world has seen a difference between men 0.67

00:23:50.220 and women and the function of women in society and predominantly that being in the home. 1.00

00:23:55.580 This is common knowledge for the vast majority of all of human history, and it's certainly true 0.63

00:24:01.280 to the scripture. So, if we see something like that in the culture at large, yeah, trad wives 0.99

00:24:08.320 and sourdough beat the hell out of OnlyFans, right? So, when we're living in OnlyFans culture,

00:24:17.920 and then you see even just the sparks of a potential sundress and sourdough movement,

00:24:25.880 then yeah we want we want to encourage that and say that's great and then and then add some of

00:24:31.700 the robust underpinnings theological underpinnings for why but we don't want to disparage it um and 0.99

00:24:37.680 say well no that's not really what femininity is because we're actually intimidated by wives who

00:24:43.240 are staying home and wearing dresses and making sourdough because we actually secretly want to be

00:24:48.380 able to protect our own wives and their 40 hour a week career or whatever outside of the home

00:24:52.820 So that's, to me, that does not sit well with me.

00:24:59.200 So one more thing that I wanted to add with the clip, Nathan, can you play, not the next

00:25:03.200 one, but can you go back and play the clip that you already did one last time?

00:25:06.940 I have one more point to make.

00:25:09.860 And gullible.

00:25:11.300 Hannah also hosted two of these people, Eric Kahn and Joel Webin, on her podcast, Patriarchy

00:25:17.500 Country.

00:25:18.000 I truly think this show, who is also a working mother, and also a few years ago, Joel Webin

00:25:27.140 really, really wanted to be on my show, was asking and asking and asking to be on my show.

00:25:33.020 I did not want to do it.

00:25:35.080 I just finished feeding him and he just like cuddles up on me like this.

00:25:38.560 How am I supposed to put him back?

00:25:40.560 That's all right.

00:25:41.800 Technical difficulties.

00:25:43.060 It happens to everyone, including Nathan.

00:25:44.920 So here we go.

00:25:45.880 So that was actually our second clip, but it's okay because it basically makes the same point as the first clip.

00:25:50.740 So we'll go ahead and just address, you know, both in one fell swoop.

00:25:54.040 But I wanted to say from the first clip and the sentiment there is there again in the second.

00:26:00.380 But, you know, Ali mentioned that, well, you know, people like Joel Webin or Eric Kahn, they don't think that I should have a podcast.

00:26:07.600 They don't think that I should.

00:26:08.640 And she specifically said they don't think that I should be on the front lines of the culture war.

00:26:12.160 And so I just want to, I mean, I think I've said it in the last week, but might as well go ahead

00:26:17.260 for the record and say it again. That is correct. That's correct. I do not want women on the front

00:26:24.660 lines of battle. No, I don't think that it's pleasing to the Lord. There's a number of reasons 1.00

00:26:31.540 for that, but I'll give at least one. I've given it before, I'll give it again. Men should be strong

00:26:37.740 and physical strength in a man's youth eventually coupled with grace gives way as we've talked about

00:26:44.700 before gives way to spiritual strength as he gets older so there's something in our youth

00:26:51.080 at the physical level that God is saying he's conveying to us through nature by means of nature

00:26:56.460 saying this is the general direction that my I have in my will for you so he makes men typically

00:27:04.300 in general, young men are physically strong. And that says something about the spiritual telos

00:27:09.620 of a man, strength. So, that physical strength then gives way to gray hair, a crown, wisdom,

00:27:16.500 spiritual strength, that he remains a protector. He may not be able to bench the same amount,

00:27:22.260 but he's actually an even stronger protector and provider for his people as he ages. That

00:27:28.900 physical strength gives way to spiritual strength. So, too, with a woman. God makes, in a general 0.67

00:27:34.560 sense, women are beautiful. Now, that external beauty, the physical beauty that a woman possesses

00:27:42.040 in her youth, eventually, the scripture says, and we see in our experience, that it eventually fades, 1.00

00:27:47.600 that beauty is fading, charm is deceptive, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. 0.63

00:27:51.180 But that physical, that's God speaking through nature, that physical beauty that embodies 0.99

00:27:57.180 women in their youth, that that is to give way to greater and greater degrees of spiritual beauty.

00:28:04.920 Now, speaking of the spiritual beauty, 1 Peter talks about this and explains exactly what that

00:28:10.140 is. It's not an external physical beauty that's perishable, but an imperishable beauty of the

00:28:15.840 heart. So, an internal and eternal. It's imperishable. So, it's internal and eternal

00:28:21.880 beauty. And then God defines this beauty that is precious in his sight with two predominant

00:28:28.720 characteristics. Number one, that it's quiet. And number two, that it's gentle. It's a quiet

00:28:35.260 and gentle spirit. And so the reason, this is just one reason. There are a number of reasons.

00:28:40.680 There are practical reasons, psychological reasons, political reasons. There are all kinds

00:28:44.860 of reasons. But this is one theological reason. No, I don't want to see any woman. It's nothing

00:28:49.680 personal against Ali Bestucki, but I don't want to see any woman, and especially any Christian

00:28:54.940 sister in the Lord, on the front lines fighting a war. Now, I understand that it's not physical

00:29:01.500 battle, but to be on the front lines of the culture war, it requires at least some degree.

00:29:09.680 It's not the only tool in your toolbox, but it will be used. It is necessary. You don't only

00:29:15.240 use a hammer when you're building a house, but you can't build a house without a hammer.

00:29:19.680 You're going to have to use it at least some.

00:29:21.900 Well, here's a tool on the culture war, because it is a war.

00:29:25.100 It is a right sentiment that we've called it.

00:29:29.280 We haven't just called it the cultural project or the cultural cooking, cultural baking,

00:29:35.260 you know, cultural nursing.

00:29:37.420 No, it's called the culture war.

00:29:40.020 And there's a reason for that label and the reason why it stuck, because it is really

00:29:44.200 a war.

00:29:45.160 And when you're in war, even if it's not physical battle, that cultural war, one of the tools,

00:29:49.320 like a hammer, it's not your only tool to be used all the time, even in the case of men,

00:29:52.920 but it is necessary, it will have to be used occasionally, is being polemical.

00:29:59.440 And the mere fact of being polemical, to be polemical is to not be quiet and gentle.

00:30:09.140 You cannot be polemical and quiet and gentle at the same time, which according to God's Word,

00:30:14.720 if we're going to trust that God's word is true, a quiet and gentle spirit are the two

00:30:20.400 predominant defining characteristics of inward feminine beauty that is pleasing in the sight of

00:30:26.960 God. And so a woman who is on the front lines fighting the culture war is going to be polemical. 0.91

00:30:34.500 And Allie is at times. She's being polemical in this video towards us. She's, you know,

00:30:39.640 being a little snarky, a little bit of sarcasm. It's, you know, she's warring. It's a fight.

00:30:46.320 She's fighting. And in being polemical, you cannot be gentle and quiet, which means that those are

00:30:54.920 two of the premier characteristics of beauty, according to God's word, for women, inward beauty,

00:31:01.560 then you can't be beautiful. In other words, if we send our Christian sisters in the Lord to the 0.96

00:31:08.860 front lines of the culture war, then we are requiring of them, maybe not every second of

00:31:15.700 every podcast or everything, but we are requiring by necessity that at least in some significant

00:31:23.660 degree, they will have to sacrifice their beauty in order to engage in that polemic.

00:31:32.460 You can't do both.

00:31:33.360 You can't be polemical and beautiful as a woman, feminine beauty, according to God's 0.98

00:31:39.980 definition of what beauty is.

00:31:42.240 And we, given the choice between warring sisters in Christ or beautiful sisters in Christ,

00:31:49.640 we want our sisters in Christ to be beautiful.

00:31:52.480 So back to that first clip, we won't play it again because we're having a little bit

00:31:58.200 of challenges, but that first clip, she said, you know, Joel doesn't think that I should

00:32:01.980 be in the culture war.

00:32:02.680 that is correct that is correct and and my opinion has not changed um and that that is because um i

00:32:09.360 i don't think that uh the culture war is just that it's a war and war is for men um in the physical

00:32:16.240 sense when there's bullets and in the spiritual sense the culture war is different than building

00:32:21.680 culture that's right right women have been authors and painters and you know keepers of 1.00

00:32:29.160 helping produce their household livelihood. 1.00

00:32:33.800 Building culture is different than what we're talking about with the culture war on the front lines,

00:32:37.720 trying to beat back negative influences and sinful beliefs that are shaping how the culture builds itself.

00:32:45.720 Right. Eric, what do you think?

00:32:47.940 Yeah, I think that you guys make some really good points.

00:32:50.000 I think the other is just practical, facing up to the practical things that are going on, too.

00:32:54.340 So having spent a lot of time in the media industry outside of a particularly reformed or Christian space, you've got to think about the cultural context and what a marketing guy is thinking through.

00:33:06.400 He's saying you've got a pretty blonde lady and you've got an audience of women.

00:33:10.980 So how do you market to them? You get somebody to speak their language. 0.68

00:33:14.300 You feel like you need something like that. That's really a big factor here.

00:33:19.440 The other one I would say, though, is when we're addressing principles, just like in the book of Acts, when you start telling the silversmiths and the magicians that what they're doing is not a good thing for them to be doing. 0.76

00:33:32.480 Well, what ends up happening is it causes an economic problem.

00:33:36.580 And so I think for Ali and for other people, they're very successful.

00:33:41.060 And I think in the past, this is why, you know, you'll tend to hear quips from them like you're jealous of my platform, yada, yada.

00:33:47.640 we're like no actually it's a principled issue um but but you've got to be aware of that the

00:33:53.440 other thing i think that's really it's kind of just in the cultural water particularly with

00:33:57.880 mainstream evangelicalism for some time now is you've had the jen wilkin effect where we had 0.75

00:34:03.020 this idea that um the only way that you could serve women was to have a female version of a

00:34:08.040 pastor and so we did that with women's ministries and so i actually view this as just an extension

00:34:14.920 of the same thing where it's like well men addressing political issues wasn't enough

00:34:19.360 we need a female version of that in order to be effective and of course again on principle we

00:34:25.640 don't think that's the case i also think um going back to something that west said about movements

00:34:31.800 this is one of the particular reasons that we we want to ground what we're saying not in novel

00:34:37.000 innovative 1980s complementarian theology but in the reform tradition as a whole right so 200 years

00:34:44.620 and plus older and we say when you stack up something like alibeth against all of that if

00:34:50.380 you go 200 years ago they they would be laughing that this conversation is even happening right

00:34:56.300 yeah a little just a bit on the war maybe we'll hit our first commercial break but um that's the

00:35:01.160 positive side the polemical the attack the aggression but on the negative side i mean i'm

00:35:05.660 sure joel and eric get much more than i do but the messages the insults and everything that i receive

00:35:10.320 i would never want my wife to be on the receiving end they don't bother me whatsoever but anyone

00:35:14.980 that has some level of a public platform and speaks strongly on the issues of today they're

00:35:20.240 going to be on the receiving end of hate of vile disgusting things that should never be hurled at 1.00

00:35:25.640 a woman most certainly in regards to this and so by saying no i don't wouldn't want my wife doing

00:35:30.640 a podcast on this i wouldn't want her speaking i wouldn't want her authoring related to these

00:35:34.080 issues you're shielding her from being exposed to nastiness they have just no place being exposed

00:35:39.680 to i love them i want you to sleep great at night and so we're not going to involve you in this

00:35:43.560 culture war and i will happily take the heat because i can take a thousand or whatever it

00:35:47.300 would be and uh and not lose not lose a wink but uh but for you out of love i just know this is to

00:35:53.340 protect you yeah amen well said yeah sometimes people ask like how come you don't um how can

00:35:59.120 we never see your family you know like how come your wife doesn't ever jump on a podcast with you

00:36:04.800 or anything like that.

00:36:05.640 And the, you know, the short answer is because I love my family,

00:36:09.160 because I love my wife, right?

00:36:11.480 There's about 100,000 people that appreciate Joel Webin by the grace of God.

00:36:16.400 And there's 10 million that hate me.

00:36:18.200 That's right.

00:36:19.320 You know, like, and so people...

00:36:21.020 They're a vocal 10 million, Joel.

00:36:23.560 They are.

00:36:24.580 And, you know, so like my wife, Megan, she'll ask, you know, from time to time,

00:36:28.920 you know, like, you know, so what are people mad at you for, you know, today?

00:36:33.800 what's what's the new thing and and you know a lot of times i'll just say well nothing i mean

00:36:42.920 people are mad that's true i won't lie to her but um nothing important you know i i will catch her

00:36:50.500 up maybe maybe once every couple weeks maybe once a month if there's something really significant

00:36:56.820 that I think, you know, might actually, you know, that she would, you know, it could come up in

00:37:03.640 conversation, you know, with other women in the church that they might ask her about, you know,

00:37:08.100 or maybe her parents, you know, might have seen something online, you know, if I get picked up by

00:37:13.900 like some major, you know, news station and my email is getting flooded, you know, because some

00:37:21.100 clip went viral, you know, or something like that. And it's almost, you know, like close to being a

00:37:26.000 national story so like you know she could have an aunt or an uncle that hear you know about then

00:37:31.180 something like that i'll you know i'll clue her in um and and let her know what's going on so that

00:37:36.700 she can be prepared not caught off guard like if she's going for a walk with her mom and her mom

00:37:40.700 asked a question or a woman in the church but other than that no um i don't sleep very great

00:37:47.140 um but my wife sleeps like a baby she's living her best life now she's got her five little babies

00:37:53.380 living the dream and she's happy and she has her friends in the church and good relationships with

00:37:59.740 her family. And she does make her sourdough and she wears beautiful dresses and she's healthy

00:38:04.980 and she's happy and she's beautiful. And no, why is your wife not podcasting with you?

00:38:11.780 Because I love her. That's why. I'm not bringing her into this world. No, I'll go to war for her.

00:38:19.640 And that's why I'm doing it.

00:38:20.840 I'm doing it, number one, for the glory of God, number two, for the good of His people,

00:38:24.060 for the good of the church, Christians, and number three, because I have a wife and children.

00:38:30.000 And as Stephen Wolf would say, I don't have any fancy titles, although he literally does.

00:38:35.740 He has a doctrine in political philosophy.

00:38:38.080 I don't have any fancy titles, but I am a father, and I want my children to live in

00:38:42.940 a Christian nation.

00:38:44.560 That's why we do what we do, for the glory of God, the good of His people.

00:38:48.160 and for our children and our children's children.

00:38:51.440 We want them to live in a Christian nation. 1.00

00:38:53.880 So no, I'm not going to bring my wife

00:38:55.740 into battle with me, podcasting,

00:38:57.400 in the same way that if I got enlisted

00:38:59.640 because we went into World War III,

00:39:02.000 you know, because...

00:39:04.120 For Ukraine. 0.91

00:39:05.740 It would be Israel, let's be honest.

00:39:07.440 But if we get, you know, I get drafted,

00:39:11.900 no, I'm not going to take my wife with me

00:39:14.540 and my daughters with me into battle.

00:39:16.100 and i'm also not gonna i'm not gonna subject them to the internet to be hated by 10 million people

00:39:22.660 so um oh one more thing so since we did play the second clip we might as well address it real quick

00:39:28.100 and then we'll go to our first commercial break the only thing there that's worth addressing

00:39:31.560 is that um uh it's you know i've seen it online and ali said it in that clip but i've seen online

00:39:38.200 where people are like well you're hypocritical and i heard that you paid ali to go on her show

00:39:43.480 and this, that, and the other. And I think there's two things worth noting. Number one, 0.97

00:39:47.180 the simplest thing that I can say is that by God's grace, I've actually changed. And here's,

00:39:55.160 this is what I don't like a lot of times about older ministers, guys who are fathers in the

00:39:59.800 faith and we appreciate them. We want to be as respectful as we can. But one thing that really

00:40:03.480 is disappointing and exasperating, I think for spiritual sons, when we see older men in the 0.53

00:40:09.080 ministry who are, they don't just do this once or twice, but they're kind of like uniquely marked

00:40:14.640 by it. It's kind of like their MO. It's something that they're known for because they do it with

00:40:18.980 such frequency. One of the things that's often done is that guys will get caught in some kind

00:40:26.260 of inconsistency. And instead of an apology, there's a double down. There's, well, I'm going

00:40:35.060 to write this many extra blogs. And it's not an apology. It's actually an indictment because at

00:40:41.100 the end of it, what you're really communicating is, I need you to apologize for being so stupid 0.99

00:40:46.880 that you misunderstood me. So I'm not going to do that to you guys. What I'll do instead is it was 0.77

00:40:53.600 early 2020, pretty quick after COVID happened in March. I think it was April, May, something like

00:41:01.260 that, maybe June. So, about five years ago, and I had just written a book called Am I Truly Saved

00:41:08.200 on the Assurance of Salvation? And we reached out to multiple Christian podcasts, Just Thinking

00:41:12.660 was one of them, with Virgil Walker and Daryl Harrison. So, we reached out to multiple Christian

00:41:18.120 podcasts and asked them if we could do advertising with them to promote the book. And Allie was one

00:41:25.260 of the podcasts that we reached out to. And I can't remember the price. I think it was about

00:41:28.700 $700 for one commercial, which I'm sure her price is a lot higher now. She has a much

00:41:33.460 larger platform. And I'm not saying that, you know, that she was gouging us. I think that was

00:41:38.140 a fair price. So we paid $700 for one commercial for my book. And then I followed up when they

00:41:44.160 said yes to that, to promoting the book. And we agreed on the price. They sent the invoice and

00:41:48.140 we paid it. Then I followed up and said, Hey, you know, while we're at it, I'm pastoring in

00:41:53.940 California. COVID is kind of a big thing. And we've taken a stand on that issue when a lot of

00:41:58.440 other churches haven't. And we took a stand early. Would you be willing to have me on for a short

00:42:03.680 segment to talk about that? And she said, yes. Now, she says she didn't want to. I think that's

00:42:09.980 probably true. I don't think she's lying. I bet behind the scenes she's like, eh, not really

00:42:13.620 interested. But she made an exception and probably in part because we had just become customers by

00:42:19.960 paying for an ad. And to be frank, that was my strategy. My strategy was I'm going to pay for

00:42:25.240 the ad because I really do just want to promote the book. And after having paid for an ad to

00:42:29.220 promote the book, then I'll make a request. Can I go on your show? Because that's kind of

00:42:33.260 a decent strategy because then the person feels a little bit beholden to you.

00:42:37.280 So I think Ali's telling the truth. I think I'm telling the truth. I think that both of these

00:42:40.480 things actually consistently meld with one another. So I think she didn't really want to do

00:42:46.320 it, but we had just, you know, given her money to pay for an ad. And so she decided, oh, what's the

00:42:51.800 harm, you know, we'll throw them in on a 10 minute slot. And that's what she did. And I talked about

00:42:55.980 COVID. Now later, as you'll see here in a moment, after our commercial break, we'll play another

00:43:00.500 clip. You know, she goes further and saying, well, it's not just that, but Joel, you know,

00:43:05.520 celebrated Candace Owens when she played a clip from Joel's podcast on her show. I don't know if

00:43:13.760 I celebrated Candace Owens. I can't remember how, maybe Allie didn't say it like that, but something

00:43:17.860 along those lines. But I did celebrate the clip from my show being played on Candace

00:43:23.040 Owen's show. Absolutely. I hope she plays a few more. And if she invited me to be on

00:43:28.640 her show, I would say no in principle. No, I would say yes. If Laura Ingram said, hey,

00:43:34.940 do you want to come on for a short segment with Fox News? I would say yes. Now, if Laura

00:43:40.520 Ingram also asked me in private or in public on her show, what do you think I should do

00:43:46.880 with my life to honor God, I would say, quit your job and go home. That's what I believe.

00:43:54.940 Those two things can be true. That's not hypocrisy. That is being shrewd and calculated

00:44:01.800 and strategic. I'm going to take whatever platform and opportunity I can to get out a message,

00:44:08.840 not to make much of me, but to make much of Christ and get out a message that I believe

00:44:13.760 is absolutely necessary. And a message that I think has been suppressed in our country

00:44:20.200 for decades, whether it's something when all the churches are folding like a cheap suit on COVID,

00:44:26.760 yeah, I will take whatever opportunity I have to encourage pastors and Christians to be courageous

00:44:32.720 as I possibly can, even if it means going on a female's podcast. I did a podcast with

00:44:38.940 pearly things, uh, Pearl Davis, I would do it again. If I had the opportunity, I would do it

00:44:45.140 again. Why? Because she has a large platform with a lot of followers and I have a message that I

00:44:50.740 want to get across. Um, so yeah, so I, I just, I don't see any, any conflict or inconsistency with

00:44:57.880 that. Now, all that said though, I will, like I said, I don't want to just clarify. I also do

00:45:02.560 want to admit, I've changed. So, in 2020, I did have different views than I had today. I would

00:45:09.320 have been more, I started embracing biblical patriarchy, and at the end of 2018, taught on it

00:45:16.420 in 2019, took four weeks to go through the first 15 verses of 1 Timothy chapter 2,

00:45:24.500 lost about a third of the church that I was pastoring. In four weeks, we lost about a third

00:45:29.700 of the church. So, it was 2018, 2019 that I really started to embrace more of a patriarchal view,

00:45:37.100 but it was still softer and less robust and fleshed out as what I hold today. So,

00:45:44.720 part of it was a strategy, and then part of it was that I really have, by God's grace,

00:45:50.500 evolved, um, in my doctrine. And, and the, the, the statement of, um, I, I've been the same for

00:45:59.880 30 years, brother, that's not the brag you think it is. Um, I think that there is something to be

00:46:07.040 said for, I, you know, I've noticed people say, well, wouldn't it be great to come into these

00:46:11.020 positions and not make major doctrinal changes at least before becoming a pastor? And I would say,

00:46:15.280 yeah, that is absolutely ideal. And in better times throughout church history, in better times

00:46:22.320 of Christendom, that would have been the norm. The ideal would have been the norm. I think the

00:46:26.800 reason it's not the norm today is not just because an individual is, you know, choosing to, you know,

00:46:33.800 just sow his wild theological oats and, you know, and be an edgelord. I think the reason why you see

00:46:40.100 guys like me, and, you know, the Ogden guys, I think, are an example of this also, shifting

00:46:46.100 in our theological convictions over time is because the church in America has been in complete

00:46:53.100 disarray. So, you say, well, you should have gone to seminary, and you should have even gone

00:46:59.340 further and got a PhD, and you should have waited, and I don't know if I should have gone to seminary,

00:47:04.960 I don't know if I should have got a PhD, I do think I should have waited before entering the

00:47:08.440 ministry. I'll admit that. But my point is that I don't think that would have fixed it. And how do

00:47:14.900 I know? Because there's a bunch of guys with MDivs who suck. That's how I know. I know because I see 0.99

00:47:22.740 those guys who did go to seminary and their theology on especially these kinds of subjects

00:47:30.980 like biblical patriarchy is absolutely deplorable. And my prayer for those guys is that they would

00:47:37.620 be willing to humble themselves and change. It's like, well, I've never changed. What is repentance

00:47:44.740 other than change? That's what repentance is. It's changing. And so, yeah, I want to be

00:47:52.980 a minister and beyond that, beyond just being a public voice or a pastor, I want to be a Christian

00:47:59.240 and I want to be the kind of Christian that's going from glory to glory to glory, that's being

00:48:05.020 further and further progressively conformed into the image of Christ day by day that I want to be

00:48:11.020 able to say five years from now, the same way I can say today, I have better theology than I did

00:48:16.000 five years ago. I hope five years from now that I can say that again. I think that that's the goal.

00:48:22.520 I think that's the goal. And I understand that you can give people theological whiplash

00:48:26.160 by changing too quickly or changing on major issues. But I just think that you have to realize,

00:48:33.780 the sons of Issachar, you have to realize what is a product of the individual person being just

00:48:40.220 unstable and just kind of going back and forth to wishy-washy? What's a product of that,

00:48:49.440 the individual person? And then separating that from what is a product of just the larger lay

00:48:56.000 of the land in Christendom, as it pertains to today, there's no way to get the training back

00:49:04.660 on the rails apart from ministers and pastors and Christians making major theological changes.

00:49:14.860 Like, we're in rough shape, guys. If this was the mid-1800s, and you had a guy who was every

00:49:22.960 five years making major theological changes, then yeah, I would be right there with you saying,

00:49:27.860 what's up with that? That's kind of weird. But it's not the mid-1800s, right? It's the year of

00:49:34.660 our Lord, 2025, where for at least 70 years here in these United States, the church has been

00:49:41.660 atrocious in much of its doctrine, and the only way out of it is for people to build the plane

00:49:48.160 in mid-flight and admit as they're learning, I was wrong, I'm changing and now doing this.

00:49:55.540 So I think it's a component of two things with Allie and her show five years ago. One,

00:50:01.960 I've changed. I was more wrong then, still wrong now, I'm sure, but more wrong then five years ago

00:50:09.000 than I am today because I'm trying to change. That's one, I changed. Number two, there is a

00:50:15.100 difference in going on someone else's platform versus having them on yours. There is something

00:50:20.880 to be said for some degree of measured pragmatism and strategy. Eric, do you have any thoughts

00:50:28.000 about that before we go to our next commercial? Yeah, I think particularly just the element of

00:50:33.800 change. You mentioned Ogden. We've had some of that too. I always think it's funny because

00:50:37.920 people will dunk on Brian. They find some picture from 15 years ago when Brian had a soul patch and

00:50:44.860 you know maybe a little bit of a hipster look to him and they're like oh isn't this funny

00:50:49.960 but i think you know i'm old enough to remember i kind of grew up in a time period before social

00:50:54.680 media before everything was online there is no twitter from when i was nine years old because

00:50:59.520 well twitter didn't exist and now x so i think part of it is uh giving guys grace uh to say that

00:51:07.060 yeah because of the times that we're living in there's been a ton of change think about martin

00:51:11.420 Luther and the Reformation, though. So much change was happening then because it was a very dark

00:51:16.140 period in the church. And nobody today looks at Martin Luther and says, wow, you sure changed a

00:51:20.460 lot. That's a knock against you. No, in fact, we have conferences celebrating the things that he

00:51:24.760 taught because it was bringing light back to the church. And then I would say this too. There's a

00:51:30.520 dynamic in which anytime you try to do the work of reform retrieval, this historical work, it's

00:51:37.180 necessarily going to be a situation where people hate you people are opposed to you people take it

00:51:42.980 personally and one thing i'll just continually go back to even with ali bath this really isn't a

00:51:48.300 personal thing uh between you know say me and her or any anyone else in our camp and her it's more

00:51:54.000 of a principled issue particularly when we think about our women and i don't want our women being

00:52:00.360 reared in an environment spiritually where they feel like having an opinion on everything

00:52:06.120 politically and being very loud about it is the only way that they can be a glory as a woman

00:52:11.020 instead i want them like you said to feel at peace in the home my wife is much the same way

00:52:16.200 she doesn't even usually ask me about twitter she said i you know i know it's bad i know they're

00:52:21.580 probably coming after you thank you for shielding me from that the home is peaceful because i don't

00:52:27.000 have to know all of those things and so i think just for our ladies um if if people can see the

00:52:33.260 inside of the church and see what we're teaching and then what the fruits of that is. It's actually

00:52:40.280 happy women, happy homes, and as Michael mentioned, a rich culture building within the home that just

00:52:47.420 emanates out of the walls into the church in really a joyful way.

00:52:52.900 Amen. All right, let's go to a commercial break. We'll be right back.

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00:54:00.220 America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty before God

00:54:04.240 and not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.

00:54:08.000 Reese Fund exists in order to see the Ten Commandments properly applied,

00:54:11.480 not just as a plaque on the wall, but to actually be used in business

00:54:15.020 as though they're commandments from God that we're supposed to obey.

00:54:18.840 Our goal is to find businesses and to buy them and to build them up.

00:54:23.420 We want to find manufacturing businesses and use them to make sure that we can maintain our capacity to do things here.

00:54:30.280 Reese Fund, Christian Capital, boldly deployed.

00:54:36.080 There it is. We found the Qatar money right there.

00:54:39.520 David Reese.

00:54:42.540 Who was it that accused us of taking Qatar money?

00:54:45.760 Joel Berry.

00:54:46.260 That's the one and only Joel Berry, yes. 0.98

00:54:49.080 Mr. Zionism himself, Joel Berry. 0.98

00:54:50.920 Mr. Zionism. Yeah, we're using all that Qatari money to build Christian nations. Isn't that 0.92

00:54:57.020 something? There we go. Yeah, it's a bold strategy for the Muslims, huh? Let's see if it works out

00:55:02.180 for them. It is. We're going to fund guys to build Christian nations to help Islam. Okay,

00:55:09.140 we'll see. All right, so we're going to go ahead and just hop into it. We want to play this last

00:55:14.100 clip, Eric, and get your thoughts, get my thoughts, see if Wes and Michael have something that they

00:55:18.180 want to add and then we're going to start dealing with the chat we've got a ton of questions

00:55:22.600 and i assume that we have a ton of questions because they all want to hear from me no i'm

00:55:28.420 just kidding um i think part of it's because you're here so eric if you're willing um yeah

00:55:34.120 probably it's about four o'clock right now i think we can be done by five can you give us another

00:55:38.240 hour to do this clip and then do some questions yeah that's great great okay uh nathan is going

00:55:44.900 to play this, but it's already just the way that the tech works. He's already into the clip a

00:55:48.660 little bit. So for the listener and the viewer, please, um, please forgive Nathan. Uh, he's doing

00:55:53.900 his very best and he does an awesome job. He's going to play it. And then he's going to have

00:55:57.440 to immediately rewind it because it's going to, it's going to kind of like start right in the

00:56:00.840 middle. He'll rewind it and then he'll let it go. And we'll see the whole thing here.

00:56:04.620 Khan also said that women should not be arguing with men on Twitter using insults like heretic

00:56:10.260 without addressing the issues through proper channels like their husbands and their church.

00:56:15.940 Okay, what's funny is that I have never argued with any of these people on Twitter,

00:56:20.500 but he and other men like him have repeatedly tried to goad me into a debate for attention.

00:56:26.680 They've picked fights with me, with other women, even though I've never given them the time of day.

00:56:34.240 And so they are extremely catty. 0.86

00:56:37.140 They pick lots of fights.

00:56:38.660 they get into lots of little arguments. And at the same time, they will be like, no, we're on

00:56:44.320 the front lines fighting the culture war. And women shouldn't be on here, bro. It's a podcast. 1.00

00:56:49.900 Okay. It's a podcast. And one thing that women are really good at doing is talking.

00:56:57.260 So let me go first, Eric, and then I'll throw it to you. So just to provide some hit. Yeah, 1.00

00:57:02.320 I know it's rough. But just to provide some history for the listener, a lot of our listeners

00:57:07.220 may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, um, so that part, you know, I tried, I tried to

00:57:12.140 defend Allie earlier and say, yeah, I think both of these things could be true. Like I didn't want

00:57:15.420 to have them on the show, but also I did, you know, because they paid for an ad, um, which that

00:57:20.240 does, the details do matter. Like if you want to give me a hard time because we paid Allie for an 0.96

00:57:24.880 ad and I also asked if I could do a segment, that's fine. But what you see online is people

00:57:29.080 saying, well, he paid to go on the show. Well, no, we didn't. We paid for an ad. I asked to go

00:57:33.460 on the show. She felt obligated by her own admission because we paid for the ad to oblige 0.99

00:57:39.760 that request. So there I wanted to defend her and say, yeah, I think that's probably true when she 0.98

00:57:43.660 says I didn't really want to have Joel, but I went ahead and did it anyways. I think she's being

00:57:47.560 truthful. That last clip that we just watched is not truthful. And you know what? I'll say this

00:57:53.940 again to try to steal man and give as much charity as possible. Sometimes when we say things that

00:58:00.260 aren't truthful, it can be nefarious, it can be malicious, that we're intentionally being deceptive.

00:58:05.480 It also, it's not always our fallibility, it can also be our finitude, right? It could be just the

00:58:10.800 fact that we're creaturely, and we don't have steel trap perfect, you know, memories all the

00:58:15.700 time. So, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe she's not trying to be deceitful here, but maybe

00:58:20.820 she just forgot. But I remember, because for me, it was a bit of an ordeal, and so it's more

00:58:27.720 memorable. But the way that this started, it started when Allie Beth quoted, she read

00:58:35.340 verbatim for about five, six minutes or so, a portion of a transcript of my sermon on her show 0.72

00:58:44.200 and then mocked it. And then multiple women at the time, this was about two and a half years ago.

00:58:50.060 23, I think. Yeah. Two years ago, something like that. Multiple women in our church,

00:58:56.220 their husbands approached me because their wives were struggling with that, you know,

00:59:00.720 because their wives at the time, now at this point, I don't know if we really have anyone

00:59:05.380 in our church who listens to Allie Beth or definitely few. And I don't say that as like

00:59:11.940 a dunk or anything. It's just like the people who are big fans of Allie Beth are probably not big

00:59:16.500 fans of me. You know, it's just like, we don't have as much overlap. There was a time where we

00:59:20.720 had more overlap and now not so much. But when she read that transcript from my sermon and then

00:59:27.780 proceeded to make fun of it and say why it was theologically wrong and why it was also just 0.99

00:59:33.520 stupid and dumb, that affected me at a pastoral level. I had to do meetings with people and I had 0.99

00:59:40.760 to explain things to people. For me, I'm not just a podcaster. Yes, I podcast, but I also am a pastor.

00:59:49.740 And so, I'm shepherding people's souls, and if you have women in your church who think very highly of Ali Bastaki, because they had previously had listened to her for years before even coming to our church, and had gotten some of the polemical, you know, boss babe, kind of catty, snarky stuff that's maybe not so good for their soul.

01:00:13.220 but also, I'm not going to say that's all it is, also some things that are objectively theologically

01:00:18.100 true and some good counsel along the way and this and that and the other. And so, they've benefited

01:00:22.900 from her. They've been blessed by her and they have a history of maybe they listened to her for

01:00:27.280 two years, three years, four years, and then came to Covenant Bible Church. And it was primarily

01:00:33.500 the families that were new to our church. And Eric, I'm going to let you, because I think you

01:00:36.720 guys have a similar experience. So, you're talking about not just one, but a handful,

01:00:41.500 multiple newer families to our church that have only been there maybe six months or a year at most

01:00:46.560 that have been, you know, the wives have been fans of Ali Bestucki and have benefited from her.

01:00:53.020 And then, you know, they hear their pastor preach a sermon and they weren't bothered by it because

01:00:57.780 they heard the whole context, the whole sermon. They know me and they thought that's true. That

01:01:02.800 was good. But then that, imagine that next week they're listening to their favorite Christian 0.99

01:01:07.980 female podcaster and she is saying now ali didn't name me which i appreciate it i appreciated that

01:01:15.020 but for me it was it was a local pastoral challenge that was presented by this not a

01:01:20.460 public image challenge it wasn't for my podcast it was for my pastoral ministry when she quoted

01:01:26.180 word for word five six minutes straight of a manuscript the manuscript for my sermon 0.91

01:01:31.200 all the women in my church in public people maybe didn't know but the women in my church 0.99

01:01:36.840 they knew exactly whose sermon that was. I heard that sermon last week. I know who that is. 0.96

01:01:44.580 And she's saying, my pastor is silly and stupid. And more importantly than that, 1.00

01:01:52.120 theologically and biblically unfaithful and wrong. Maybe I should be concerned. 0.99

01:01:59.220 you know, so that created, and that was the first occurrence. So, let the record be clear and be

01:02:11.020 straight. We were teaching, guys like me, guys like Eric, guys like Brian, we were teaching the

01:02:18.180 principles of biblical patriarchy, including not just that you should have, you know, not just

01:02:23.500 complementarianism that you, as long as you have, you know, um, male elders and only men preach on 0.95

01:02:29.400 the Lord's day, then women can do everything else, including being, you know, they don't have the

01:02:34.180 title, they're not ordained, but they actually can be the shadow elders who actually tell their

01:02:37.980 husbands what to do and really run the church. And they can also preach in all these other contexts

01:02:42.220 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, we're not complementarian. We are patriarchal. And so we've

01:02:48.040 been teaching these principles of biblical patriarchy um for you know the last few years

01:02:53.600 and and i don't know about you eric maybe your story's different you can speak for yourself but

01:03:00.060 for me i had not and i know this i had not named ali bestaki once not once as i was talking about

01:03:08.720 what i see as a problem of women who are not elders they're not preaching on the lord's day

01:03:13.820 but they're still doing a lot of polemical, theological warring in the public sphere. 1.00

01:03:21.880 Just in a nutshell, in general, I don't want to see women in the public sphere. You mean they 1.00

01:03:28.720 shouldn't hold political office? Correct. You mean you don't want to see them podcasting? Correct.

01:03:35.340 Well, but what about in the marketplace, you know, with nine to five careers? No,

01:03:41.980 not that either like i i don't want to see women holding positions in the public square i don't 1.00

01:03:49.200 um not just i don't want to see women in combat positions in the military that's 1.00

01:03:53.720 finally we've gotten there we've finally gotten to the point as a culture we can say yeah female 0.98

01:03:57.900 people you know female females in the secret service might be a bad idea i'm glad we've 0.72

01:04:02.820 gotten there but the president almost died well maybe not now that the president has almost died 1.00

01:04:07.680 because yeah, now we can say that. Yeah. So I'm glad we can say that. That's an improvement. Praise

01:04:12.460 God. But I want to go way further than that. Way further than that. So we were talking about those

01:04:17.140 kinds of things before. And I think that Allie must have heard something and it bothered her,

01:04:25.360 but I had not named her. But then she, and again, to be clear and be honest, she did not name me,

01:04:31.580 But she did verbatim read a transcript, not just two sentences, a whole portion of one of my sermons out of context to where every single woman in my church knew that she was talking about me and I had to address it.

01:04:47.280 So when she says, you know, these guys are catty and they want to pick fights, I just think it helps to remember the details of what actually happened.

01:04:59.120 Eric, do you have any thoughts?

01:04:59.960 yeah i think in particular um i want to give credit here i think it was jeff wright and

01:05:05.320 bendelwary uh who i first heard this from but one of the problems i think when you put a woman

01:05:10.440 in the polemical role culture warring something she's not designed to do 1.00

01:05:15.180 generally her fight mode is mama bear and you kind of see that sort of thing happening

01:05:21.180 i would also say in listening to the clip with ali what she just said um i think there's quite

01:05:28.560 a bit of continued reading of you know motive and intent in there i keep hearing things like

01:05:35.360 these guys are chasing clout and they're just jealous of my platform and um i i won't even

01:05:41.120 respond to them here i am above it all but that's actually going back to what you said about a year

01:05:46.600 ago when this all kicked off i remember her you know citing from the sermon of course we all kind

01:05:51.580 of knew what she was talking about going after it pretty directly word for word it quickly became

01:05:56.300 a thing where people knew who it was about but also what she was doing on our end we were

01:06:01.100 responding in general at the time not specifically to her and like she would do a screenshot of

01:06:08.020 one of my posts try to cut off like half of my face but you could clearly anybody who knows it

01:06:13.900 was still me but her whole thing was like well I don't I don't want to give these guys a bigger

01:06:18.440 platform because they just want my platform blah blah blah I think all of that is look it's

01:06:23.640 fundamental misunderstanding, again, about the personal nature of the agon of ideas. When we

01:06:29.720 come into Twitter, Oren McIntyre has said this, when we come into Twitter, it's like the Coliseum

01:06:33.980 and now acts. People come here for blood. It's a bit of a blood sport. Not saying we all have to

01:06:38.980 play that game identically, but it's an exchange of ideas. So if you come out in the marketplace

01:06:44.220 of ideas, you exchange an idea and then in bad faith, try to dunk on people and then act like

01:06:49.880 the victim i mean for a lot of people that's probably not going to be a very good look i also

01:06:54.300 think it's you know inherently dishonest and to the personal i guess the personal and the pastoral

01:07:00.120 the reason it became an issue for us is because we had people in the church uh who were in the 0.99

01:07:06.420 process of you know leaving because uh you know it's generally a woman running her household

01:07:11.940 she's listening to allie beth stuckey she's wildly offended that we would ever disagree 0.97

01:07:17.200 with anything that Allie Beth said and then goes on listening to Allie Beth as the conflict 0.82

01:07:23.840 goes on and felt the same way. It was like, I would say I was disagreeing with Allie Beth

01:07:29.760 and she would say, you're attacking her. And that's, again, that's a very feminine coded way 0.97

01:07:36.100 to look at how conflicts work. Women are generally peacemakers. I do think it's funny. 1.00

01:07:41.800 um maybe it's a it's a show of no bad blood but i think like two weeks after that kicked off

01:07:47.180 uh ali best dad uh their publisher reached out on their book and said do you want to interview

01:07:52.760 ali best dad i was like sure why not like you know he's a nice guy we had a good conversation

01:07:57.720 and uh you know i i had mentioned it then and in our conversation uh i've actually emailed uh the

01:08:05.780 show, relatable. I said, look, you know, if you want to talk offline, not trying to chase clout

01:08:11.900 or whatever, but would love a, you know, a discussion with your husband or whatever,

01:08:16.700 whoever you want me to talk to. But yeah, would be more than happy to address it in a fair and

01:08:22.040 equitable way. But look, I think it comes back to this bottom line. It's jeopardizing money and

01:08:27.200 career. And anytime you have that, you know, understandably, you're going to have somewhat

01:08:31.880 of a hostile hostile response right well said yeah yeah i remember you asked me eric i think

01:08:38.420 it was about a year ago you said uh we were talking he said joel would you would you be

01:08:44.020 willing to uh to talk to ali about this as things were kind of a little bit you know some drama in

01:08:50.520 the public sphere and i said eric i would be more than happy to talk to her husband

01:08:54.020 i would love to talk to her husband that sounds great west michael do you guys have any thoughts

01:09:00.420 i was just going to mention what eric mentioned too about um while she while some of the clips

01:09:06.640 that we showed i think she was fair she said you know when i interviewed joel i didn't actually

01:09:11.980 disagree with him at the time yeah that's true but definitely that last one was pushing into it

01:09:19.320 impugning motives uh weighing in evaluating motives they're doing it for platform for clout

01:09:25.340 but eric brought that up already so i'll i'll leave it there yeah okay wes i can't believe

01:09:29.460 she gets a couch and i've got chairs we need a nice leather couch in the studio

01:09:33.200 yeah that's it that's all that's that's all i have that that's all yeah he wanted to that's

01:09:41.620 all you got he's yeah he's chiming in for a couch i love that the other thing i would say you know

01:09:45.760 you hear this from lots of uh social media people the clout chasing uh there there's a level i think

01:09:51.940 where we all have to be a little bit honest and say if you're on social media if you have a media

01:09:56.200 a company let's be real we're we're all trying to grow audiences and it doesn't necessarily have to

01:10:01.680 be nefarious we just believe that our message is important and we want to get the message out so

01:10:06.240 if ali said to me hey i just think you're trying to grow your media company i'd be like yeah aren't

01:10:10.720 you i mean isn't that what anybody in this space is doing so let's just be honest about that that's

01:10:16.440 i'm so glad and that's the one thing that i wanted to bring up you're absolutely right um you know

01:10:20.700 people say well i think jewel's just platform building so everyone with a platform is platform

01:10:25.560 building like you know and a lot of times there's people who like you know really love like you know

01:10:31.040 someone like john mccarthur who has a massive platform and you know i always tell him i'll say

01:10:35.760 look here's the deal somebody at some point in his ministry john mccarthur's ministry

01:10:41.740 went to him and said i think your preaching is really good i think it could benefit more than

01:10:48.180 just the local church a broader wider audience i would like to record it with tapes or record it

01:10:53.840 with video cameras and at some point right if john mccarthur did not want a platform then he could

01:11:00.560 have said no he would have said no at some point at the at the end of the day i'm not saying he's

01:11:05.640 doing it himself that he's showing up you know like three hours before the sunday sermon and

01:11:09.700 you know plugging in the cameras i'm not saying that he's doing it himself but he still gave his

01:11:14.300 consent like somebody came to him and said we think you have a gift and a message that would

01:11:21.000 benefit a broader audience and we'd like to do this x y and z and we need your permission and

01:11:27.740 john macarthur said yes i give you permission to help me build my platform i want to build

01:11:35.260 a platform and i'm not trying to pick on john macarthur because there's nothing wrong with that

01:11:40.340 this has been happening since the printing press with reprinting sermons in england right it wasn't

01:11:46.040 the sermon it um william perkins didn't do that it was the publisher that pursued it and then

01:11:50.700 William Perkins said, okay, let's do it.

01:11:52.160 But he gave his consent.

01:11:53.120 He said, yes, I would like for that to happen.

01:11:55.680 Charles Spurgeon, like his, you know, the Monday paper would always include, you know,

01:11:59.260 in London, his sermon, you know, from the London tabernacle, you know, Metropolitan,

01:12:03.740 you know, whatever.

01:12:04.360 And he gave his consent for that.

01:12:06.820 So, everybody that you've heard of, other than if it's a flesh and blood relationship,

01:12:11.720 like with your dad or with your local pastor or everybody else that you've heard of, but

01:12:16.780 you've never met, you don't have a personal relationship with, you've heard of them because

01:12:20.680 they made, at some point along the way, they made a conscious decision to build a platform.

01:12:26.260 And that decision in and of itself is not, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

01:12:31.020 It's the same as, it's back to the trad wife, sourdough and sundresses. Nothing wrong with

01:12:35.700 sourdough and sundresses. In fact, I can make the argument that that's actually even good. There's

01:12:40.600 actually, if anything, there is something inherent in that, and it's inherently positive,

01:12:45.960 certainly in terms of comparatively to dressing immodestly and just, you know, using Uber Eats

01:12:54.720 or something for every meal for your children that's unhealthy and blah, blah, blah, and it's

01:12:57.960 not natural. So, there's actually something, not only is it not inherently bad, it's actually

01:13:02.700 inherently good. It could also be still bad, even though it's on the surface, it's inherently good.

01:13:08.080 It can still be bad if there are inwardly bad motives, right? I'm just trying to be seen,

01:13:13.860 the praise of men or whatever it is with the trad wife thing. Same concept, that same concept, 0.61

01:13:19.380 now apply it to platform building. Salvador is not inherently bad. Platform building is not

01:13:25.300 inherently bad. The question is the motives. And that's up to the individual, especially if it's

01:13:31.900 a follower of Christ, for them to be able to say, as David did, search me, O God, if there's anything

01:13:38.060 that's not upright. Search my heart. Purge from me any sinful motives, any sinful incentives,

01:13:46.680 any Qatar money, any of that, Lord, just purge it out. But that's ultimately up to each individual.

01:13:56.240 That's their responsibility before the Lord, and they need at a personal level, not the masses

01:14:01.900 online, but flesh and blood relationships in their life to hold them accountable. Their elders,

01:14:07.460 their spouse, those people in their life to say, hey, I just want to make sure that at the end of

01:14:12.720 the day, that it's for the glory of God. It's for the glory of God. And checking, for lack of a

01:14:19.320 better phrase, checking your heart, examining yourself, try me, Lord, search me, Lord,

01:14:27.220 are my motives true? But platform building, aside from there being bad motives, all things being

01:14:32.760 equal. Just the act of trying to build a larger mechanism for getting a message out to more

01:14:38.760 people, there is nothing inherently wrong about that. In fact, that can be really good if the

01:14:45.400 message that you're trying to communicate is something that's true and biblical and pleasing

01:14:49.900 to the Lord. So, this idea of like, well, I just feel like these guys are platform building.

01:14:55.200 Yeah, that's right.

01:14:56.920 And so are you.

01:14:58.740 So are you.

01:15:01.700 Everybody with a platform is platform building.

01:15:04.260 Okay, any other thoughts?

01:15:06.120 Go ahead.

01:15:07.200 Yeah, I was just going to say, some of it too is just, I think people weighing the internal

01:15:12.140 inconsistencies that many of us have, right?

01:15:15.180 You're at ShepCon, since you mentioned John MacArthur.

01:15:17.780 You're at Shepard's Conference, and you're there to see all your favorite preachers.

01:15:21.240 and then maybe there's somebody outside your camp you look at maybe like us and you go

01:15:24.860 man this is crazy they host conferences and they want attention i can't believe them and then you

01:15:30.240 know it's like john mccarthur has his face on a fresca can and i'm like actually i thought that

01:15:33.800 was pretty cool i mean it's kind of funny uh that's cool i think a lot of it is that and then

01:15:38.120 i also think too uh when you look at these worlds this kind of related to patriarchy hannah which

01:15:42.900 obviously ali brings up um but when you you look at something like that in the g3 shepcon world

01:15:50.760 steve lawson falls and nobody says man i bet reform theology is just not even true 0.96

01:15:57.480 right right well in the same way it's like you have somebody who does something that's dumb 0.93

01:16:01.680 says sorry uh and we all admit like that was a really dumb that's bad don't do that uh lying

01:16:08.220 is bad i think we can all agree on that one um but but the same camp and i'm not saying everybody

01:16:14.220 there but like with ali bath in particular uh i think it's just a useful tool and a cudgel

01:16:19.340 to say you know oh man i can't believe it you've uh you know it's all it's all patriarchy is all

01:16:27.580 wrong because of this one person who did a bad thing is it no let's just be more consistent

01:16:31.760 obviously there are people who fall that's unfortunate and we stand on timeless truths

01:16:36.080 and we just keep going with that that's so well said yes you and i each one time being assured

01:16:45.100 that she had her husband's permission

01:16:47.260 and that he was going to listen

01:16:48.440 to the recording

01:16:49.160 before it was published publicly.

01:16:53.660 Went on her podcast,

01:16:55.720 Patriarchy Hannah,

01:16:56.780 each of us,

01:16:57.640 one time,

01:16:58.940 an audio-only podcast

01:17:00.600 to be heard by,

01:17:02.800 as far as we were both informed,

01:17:04.740 a few dozen women. 1.00

01:17:07.320 Maybe a hundred. 1.00

01:17:09.140 Two hundred max.

01:17:12.580 And then it comes out 1.00

01:17:14.600 that patriarchy Hannah lied. She was living a lie. And all the Calvinists, right? We're not 1.00

01:17:25.020 talking about the pagans. Of course, they love it. But the Calvinists, the reformed camp of

01:17:32.120 evangelicalism, they come out and say, here it is, the smoking gun, inarguable, irrefutable evidence

01:17:40.540 that patriarchy is false, that the whole thing is, it's a false doctrine because the fruit is false.

01:17:47.520 Whereas, and again, we went on her audio only podcast once. This same guy's criticizing

01:17:56.820 platformed Steve Lawson at every conference, at seminaries, publishing books, Ligonier cruises

01:18:06.200 for a decade or or more they were platforming him on the largest platforms and not once

01:18:14.160 but hundreds of times between the number of podcasts uh the number of speaking engagements

01:18:21.260 and conferences and seminaries and cruises and all these things for a a decade at least

01:18:28.140 hundreds of times on massive platforms and he in the very same way let's be consistent here

01:18:37.180 steve lawson just like patriarchy hannah was also living a lie living a lie the only difference to

01:18:47.360 be fair to patriarchy hannah is that she apologized yep quickly and publicly and for

01:18:54.080 the record, I'll say this because I don't think it's private. I don't think she would mind. But

01:19:00.540 you and I, Eric, we don't have a relationship or a friendship with her. One, because she's a woman. 1.00

01:19:05.500 I don't have female friends. My wife has female friends. And by proxy, adjacent, I know those 1.00

01:19:11.860 women who I'm friends with their husband and they're friends with my wife. That's about it.

01:19:15.840 So we don't have relationships with women. And so for that reason, that reason alone, 0.99

01:19:20.820 neither eric or i had any any relationship with patriarchy hannah we went on her podcast one time

01:19:26.960 i i was in a space that she was hosting one or maybe two times by that metric if that's

01:19:34.420 relationship then michael foster was 10 times a friend of patriarchy hannah than eric or myself

01:19:40.380 right so and i and i just to be clear i don't think michael foster did anything wrong but you

01:19:46.120 just if you're going to give me and eric a hard time let's you just got to equal weights and

01:19:49.560 measures. If you're mad at me and Eric, then you should be done with Michael Foster, if we're

01:19:54.380 being consistent. So all that being said, here's the point. We don't have a relationship with

01:19:58.880 patriarchy, Hannah. However, she messaged us, and I think it's appropriate to say this. I don't

01:20:04.020 think she would mind. This is one of the only private messages I've ever received from her,

01:20:08.020 and she messaged both of us together. So it wasn't just her with me or her with you, but

01:20:11.720 a message to both Eric and I, and it was just, was it last night or two nights ago?

01:20:17.560 two days ago yeah uh that's i think it was on i think it was on wednesday yeah and it was a

01:20:25.400 i would say you correct me if i'm wrong but a pretty profuse heartfelt i i don't i don't see

01:20:31.820 her heart god alone sees a heart but in terms of the words that she sent uh profuse heartfelt

01:20:37.300 apology because and i think the reason and here's the deal because you know the the bad faith

01:20:42.060 listeners will say well the fact that she sent you a person not just the public one that she posted

01:20:46.060 but a personal apology to you and Eric, that just confirms that you and Eric actually did platform

01:20:50.640 her and you were probably best friends with her and talking to her on a day. No, I think she reached

01:20:56.040 out to me and Eric, not because we had any kind of engagement or relationship with her. I think

01:21:01.140 she reached out to me and Eric because she noticed and saw online that me and Eric are the main

01:21:06.620 guys, the main object of criticism. Nobody's upset with Michael Foster because he's not quite

01:21:15.020 is outspoken about these things as eric and i am he was but not recently and so eric and i we got

01:21:23.320 a personal apology from patriarchy hannah not because of a personal friendship or close vicinity

01:21:30.580 but because she noticed and she said this in her apology i noticed that you guys are getting the

01:21:36.500 brunt of uh of criticism because of my failure my sin and i'm so so sorry and so i just want to say

01:21:44.420 back to steve lawson the main difference they both were living a lie the main difference is that one

01:21:50.980 was platformed legitimately platformed on real serious large platforms hundreds of times for a

01:21:58.540 decade and when he fell and it proved that he was pulling the wool over people's eyes

01:22:04.620 and and was deceiving people living a lie for years and years nobody said oh time to pack it

01:22:12.200 in. Calvinism's not true. Oh, time to pack it in. The sovereignty of God, I guess it's just a farce.

01:22:18.680 Right? And then some woman with a tiny, comparatively speaking, Steve Lawson versus 0.97

01:22:25.840 Patriarch, a tiny platform who virtually no one platformed. You and I wouldn't have had her on our

01:22:31.940 show, but we went on her show as a courtesy one time each. She comes out and everyone's like,

01:22:38.380 here it is, this is it, it's over, irrefutable proof that patriarchy is a lie. What does that

01:22:46.400 tell you? That doesn't really speak to the caliber of sin that she committed, although I think it was

01:22:51.460 serious. And it doesn't speak, the fact that she personally apologized to us doesn't speak about

01:22:55.920 the vicinity of our relationship to her. She just noticed that me and you, Eric,

01:23:00.100 were getting the brunt of the criticism. What it says, what it speaks to, I think,

01:23:04.740 is it shows you what Christian message particularly is currently in our culture today under attack

01:23:12.380 and needs to be spoken about courageously by men like Eric all the more, right? There was a time

01:23:21.840 where Calvinism, Calvinism was a little bit icky. It was controversial. It was a cutting edge.

01:23:29.120 Calvinism still upsets some people. Don't get me wrong. But let's be honest. You want to be hated?

01:23:34.740 talk about biblical patriarchy the the reason why the double standard and this is a double 0.97

01:23:41.420 standard steve lawson fails calvinism is still true patriarchy hannah turns out a woman lied

01:23:48.060 and pack it up boys you're done the patriarchy we buried it six feet under like why what what's

01:23:54.980 what such a stark difference why because one of those messages is generally accepted even if not

01:24:02.120 even agreed upon it's generally accepted among evangelicals namely calvinism the other one

01:24:08.400 is absolutely despised with vitriol like i mean it is it is seriously hated namely

01:24:17.840 biblical roles of men and women and i i think we would be remiss if that was not included in this

01:24:24.720 episode any further thoughts from you guys and then we'll go to some questions on the commercial

01:24:29.340 break maybe before the questions eric you got some thoughts yeah well i think you know that's

01:24:35.200 what you said is really true i think the other thing is um you have to ask which theologies you

01:24:41.360 know if it's complementarian if it's biblical patriarchy which one can be syncretized with

01:24:47.500 the culture at large i think complementarianism that's what it is uh people like it because you

01:24:52.640 can syncretize it it doesn't disrupt your world quite as much you're like well my husband has a

01:24:57.400 tiebreak vote. Other than that, I can go out in the world and do pretty much whatever I want,

01:25:01.600 wear whatever I want, etc. And then I think with biblical patriarchy, it's just it's a cultural

01:25:06.200 disruptor. And anytime you have people who are disrupting the cultural zeitgeist, you're

01:25:10.920 obviously going to have heat and attention and frustration from people. And, you know, obviously

01:25:16.640 you want to make sure you're doing it on biblical principle and you want to do things righteously. 0.97

01:25:20.580 You want to make sure that you're not just getting a mob because, you know, you're saying dumb 0.96

01:25:24.840 things. But think about the number of times that Paul starts a riot. And sometimes intentionally, 0.78

01:25:31.160 he sees the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and he looks at them both and kind of the crowd forming.

01:25:35.980 And he's like, I'm actually here on account of the resurrection, ladies and gentlemen,

01:25:38.940 and everybody's in an uproar. And so I think part of this is kind of twofold. One, just for

01:25:45.820 the people who are listening to say that, yes, you know, speaking up in any form on the hot

01:25:52.580 button issues, if you're going to poke the idol in both eyes, there's usually going to be a strong

01:25:57.580 response and you should be prepared for that. And then I think for the people, the other folks who

01:26:02.300 are speaking to the truth on these issues, I just think I look at it and I say, okay, we're probably

01:26:07.620 over the target. And I know people don't like that. We have to, with gentleness, continue to

01:26:13.720 teach the true doctrines of scripture. We believe that they can be defended from the text of

01:26:19.580 scripture. And so we're just going to keep pressing in. Christ himself said, you know,

01:26:23.720 you're going to be persecuted. And we just got to square that in our own minds. And I think the

01:26:29.400 real temptation actually is if your platform does grow and you start making ground, that's really

01:26:35.060 where you run into danger because you have a lot of people who will come to you and they will say,

01:26:39.620 hey, if you could just tone that down a little bit, I could get you on this little bit higher

01:26:43.820 platform show. And of course, you know, for my money, it's like, no, I think I'll just

01:26:49.240 I'll stick with the old truths and, you know, the old reformed faith and, you know, come what may,

01:26:55.080 Joel, come what may. All right. More like come what gay. Am I right? All right. Okay. Here's

01:27:02.180 our final commercial break for the day. All right. The clock is running out. You need to go and

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01:29:14.840 and all of finance for Christendom. All right, we're back. We're going to get into some of the

01:29:22.020 questions. Eric, thanks for sticking around. We've got about half an hour. We're going to do our best

01:29:26.640 to be done by five. Michael, why don't you lead us off? Okay. So we've got the super chat from

01:29:32.720 the earlier in the episode. Nate, if you can scroll up. All the way at the top. There we go.

01:29:36.080 This is from Ben Huffstetler. Ben, very generous. Incredible. Thank you very much.

01:29:40.240 Whatever industry Ben is in, Ben, you have to get in that industry.

01:29:43.560 Ben has been hitting us up with $100 super chats. Yep. Very kind. Single-handedly supporting this

01:29:48.740 ministry. That's right. He says, thoughts on helping a wife and daughter that is coming out

01:29:54.280 of new age and into full submission to her calling. We have been transitioning for a few

01:29:59.360 years now. They are all in. My wife is struggling with not overriding me in conversations. My

01:30:06.360 daughter is just generally much love. Sounds like generally all in. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Much

01:30:13.700 love. Thanks again, Ben. Cool. Thanks, Ben. I think that progress matters, right? Wes,

01:30:20.180 you and I have had conversations about this.

01:30:22.400 Is there a sense where it should be expected?

01:30:25.580 Does Christ expect all of our obedience to be perfect?

01:30:29.140 Hebrews says, be holy and pursue sanctification

01:30:32.540 without which no one will see the Lord.

01:30:34.320 There is a sense where we want to hold ourselves

01:30:36.420 to that standard.

01:30:37.560 There's also the practical reality of sanctification.

01:30:40.140 And if your wife and your daughter are moving rapidly

01:30:44.600 and consistently in that direction,

01:30:46.840 I would not break that reed.

01:30:48.720 I would not, you know, diminish that obedience.

01:30:52.160 I think that it's appropriate if you see specific things that are strategic as your role in your role as a husband to say there's been a lot of progress, but this is a specific issue.

01:31:01.480 Can we strategize? Can we talk? Can we pray about this? Bring those up.

01:31:05.080 But if it's just a general how do we move faster?

01:31:09.020 I don't know. The reality is a lot of people are coming out of perspectives that were wrong.

01:31:13.920 And that's that does sometimes take a while to change.

01:31:16.420 So be strategic, be specific, get them around other women who are thinking the same way.

01:31:23.820 You know, go to a church that is preaching along those lines so that they're hearing

01:31:27.320 it from the pulpit and they're around other women who are working, not working in that

01:31:34.020 direction and demonstrating that in their own lives.

01:31:38.300 And I would say, having seen situations where it doesn't go well, I would be very thankful

01:31:44.280 to the Lord that he has inclined your wife and daughter's hearts in this direction and

01:31:48.620 encourage them, challenge them when necessary to grow in that direction.

01:31:52.780 Well said.

01:31:53.540 Yeah, I think it's like what I was saying earlier.

01:31:56.920 You know, the reason why I've had to change is because the train is way off the rails.

01:32:03.020 It's the year of our Lord, 2025, and America and pretty much all of Christodom in the West

01:32:08.540 and European countries have been fervently apostatizing against the Lord Jesus Christ

01:32:14.620 for arguably 70 years, arguably 130 years, and arguably like 300 years, depending from where

01:32:21.440 you start. We have been in quite a dip, quite a rebellion against the Lord. And so the only way

01:32:30.900 to right the ship is going to be some pretty significant about-face, full turnaround, deep

01:32:38.360 repentance and change that said um i do think that um you kind of get to choose as the husband

01:32:47.940 you don't get to choose what god's word says you don't get to choose what's sin and what's not and

01:32:52.100 whether repentance is necessary but you you do um just like a parent right it's not exactly the

01:32:58.500 same the authority of a husband over a wife it is different than the authority over over a child

01:33:04.360 But as my wife and I are parenting, one of the consistent conversations that comes up again and again is, do we really want to make that a command?

01:33:13.780 We can.

01:33:14.540 We do have that God-given authority.

01:33:16.160 We can make this command.

01:33:17.140 And just for the record, our kids, because people give grief about this because they're bad faith listeners and they assume the worst.

01:33:23.580 Our kids are little.

01:33:24.320 We have seven, five, four, two, and zero.

01:33:28.360 Five kids, those are the ages.

01:33:29.840 So we're talking about little kids.

01:33:30.940 but like as soon as you get home from school you can do it instinctively without even thinking

01:33:35.060 about it right so you you you come out of the garage you just park the van you open the door

01:33:38.780 we have a shoe cubby right there by the door to the garage where they come in and right there as

01:33:43.940 a parent i have a choice i can say all right take off your uh take off your shoes go potty

01:33:49.300 get changed and uh and and then we're gonna do something um i've just provided for you know

01:33:56.980 not all five children one of them like i said is zero that you know she's an infant she's a baby

01:34:01.400 but for you know three or four of my children the toddler we sometimes might give a separate

01:34:05.940 lower bar command but for at least three maybe four of those five children i've just set a bar

01:34:10.820 and i've just placed them in a position it's not wrong for me to do it but i do have a choice i

01:34:15.240 place them in a position to where now i as a parent i'm going to have to follow through if

01:34:18.800 they don't obey and i've just given to uh three or four kids like three different commands take

01:34:24.240 off your shoes, go potty, change, get, get, uh, get out of your school clothes. And then,

01:34:30.940 and then we're going to do something as a family before dinner. You know, we're going to go for a

01:34:33.580 walk or whatever. So, but, but those, so I need you to go potty, take off your shoes, put them

01:34:37.340 in the shoe cubby and get changed. Um, and I've got a seven year old, a five year old, a four

01:34:41.720 year old and a two year old that I've just given three commands to. Um, so basically what I decided

01:34:47.460 is, Hey, welcome home from school. And, uh, and in about, you know, 90 seconds, um, I'm going to

01:34:53.500 be spanking i was about to say basically the decision that was just made because it's i mean

01:34:58.120 you've got about a hundred percent chance with four kids little kids at those ages seven five

01:35:03.440 four and two and three commands shoes off get changed go to the restroom uh you've got like

01:35:10.580 a hundred percent chance that at least one of the kids is not going to obey one of those commands

01:35:14.660 now here's the other thing you actually don't have to give the command now you have to teach

01:35:19.100 your children obedience you have to sometimes give commands but you don't always you don't

01:35:23.180 always. So I have to decide, my point is, long way of saying, I get to decide as head of the home,

01:35:30.800 I get to decide, is this going to be a command? Am I going to make this an ultimatum? And husbands,

01:35:37.120 you get to do that. Obviously, it's not telling them to go to the bathroom, but you get to do that 0.99

01:35:41.780 with your wives. You get to decide. So you, right, the train is way off the rails 0.80

01:35:47.000 in virtually every doctrine under the sun, especially gender piety, biblical roles of

01:35:54.300 male and female, and their function in society and in the home and in the church. We're way off

01:36:00.240 the rails and been off the rails for decades. You, by God's grace, are coming to biblical

01:36:06.960 patriarchal convictions in the Word of God, and you're starting to see what's right. Good. Good

01:36:12.240 on you. Praise God. Glory to God for giving you that revelation. But now you have the

01:36:16.840 prerogative. You have the luxury of how fast are you going to make that change with your wife? 0.68

01:36:26.260 How often? Yes, you do have real authority as a husband in your home. You do. How often are

01:36:31.440 you going to exercise it? What things are you going to, like, really, that thing? Yes, it is

01:36:39.500 your authority. It is your authority. You actually do have the authority to say, sweetheart, I'd like

01:36:45.600 for you to wear a red dress. Much to the chagrin of all the complementarians, you do have that

01:36:50.000 authority. But here's the deal. You're talking about a woman that you love as Christ loved the

01:36:55.540 church, your wife, that you're wanting to bring into glory with you as a co-heir and grace

01:37:00.600 who has been shaped by 70 years of radical God-hating feminism. It's in her bones. 0.82

01:37:10.400 and you have a choice of how gently you're going to bring her along, whether or not you want

01:37:17.220 constant friction and war in your home, or whether or not you want some moments of enjoyment

01:37:23.660 and slowly bringing her along and realizing that, you know what? Feminism is such, it's a such a 1.00

01:37:30.420 cancer. This, this cancer might not get removed all in one generation. This might be generations. 1.00

01:37:37.480 it might be my wife repents some over the next 40 years my daughter because of that my daughter 0.99

01:37:44.060 she's uh becomes the next feminine beauty and then my granddaughter like can you have the humility

01:37:50.940 and i'm not talking there's that's a separate category from well you're compromising the word

01:37:54.520 of god like if you're going to be patriarchal then you need to be you know issuing commit like

01:37:58.040 no no you you do have authority you have that authority that that's what i don't like about

01:38:02.080 the complementarians is because they basically said say that headship is just like this spiritual

01:38:06.340 ethereal it doesn't mean anything it practically it means nothing it means i get the tie-breaking

01:38:11.440 vote that might come up three times over the course of a 50-year marriage i don't like that

01:38:15.580 i think a husband has real authority that said i have never said and a husband should exercise

01:38:20.880 that real authority on on anything and everything you know 40 times a day that's never been my 0.99

01:38:26.500 position and if your wife is a raging feminist and and 99 out of 100 times she probably is because 1.00

01:38:35.580 we've been off the rails, not picking on her, but just our whole society, men and women alike, 0.80

01:38:41.580 have been rebelling with every fiber in our being against the Lord God Almighty on this issue

01:38:48.640 for 70 years and arguably longer, decades. So because of that, your wife probably is a feminist. 1.00

01:38:56.060 The question is not if she's a feminist, it's just how much of a feminist is she? Some of you 0.99

01:39:00.220 guys are married to a woman who's a little bit of a feminist, and some of you guys are married to 0.99

01:39:03.700 one that's a lot of bit of feminist. And if you just came in, husband, to patriarchal convictions

01:39:08.920 six months ago, two years ago, three years ago, and your wife has been bred by her father

01:39:15.240 and her mother, and they were bred and trained by their fathers and mothers, like for generations 0.70

01:39:22.260 to be boss babes, you do have to, you want your wife to go to heaven. So you do have to wash her 1.00

01:39:29.400 with the word. You do have to disciple it, but you get to choose how many times in a day you're

01:39:34.760 going to have war in your home rather than peace. There is no verse in the Bible that says you do

01:39:39.860 have the authority. The Bible says that, but the Bible does not say you have to execute and use

01:39:44.600 that authority on every single issue 40 times a day. That is actually up to you. That's your

01:39:50.860 prerogative. And so that's how I would answer the question, Ben. Thank you again so much for

01:39:55.260 the generosity but that that's what i would say is man just lots and lots and lots of grace

01:40:01.560 because at the end of the day i i i have counseled marriages i know marriages where um the guy came

01:40:10.040 into biblical patriarchal views and he's right and it's true and he's and he's being honorable

01:40:15.420 but but he drew a hard line in the sand right away and uh and you can do that and sometimes

01:40:22.120 god in his mercy does a miracle in that woman's heart and she comes into those convictions too

01:40:26.860 and both husband and wife are pinned together and is glorious and sometimes that doesn't happen

01:40:32.480 and your home becomes a battlefield every every second you walk through the door and it's war

01:40:39.360 war it's no one's talking the children have a have just this constant sense of unrest

01:40:45.420 and instability and and worry um you got to be true to the word of god you don't have to

01:40:53.140 exercise every command all the time i don't have to tell my my kids every time we come home

01:40:58.020 um three commands actually if i'm more if thoughtful and my wife and i we've had this

01:41:02.840 conversation like we've gotten to the point where there's some days where it's like the kids are

01:41:05.740 already falling apart they're having a hard day we're going to um deal gently with the bruised

01:41:11.640 reads. And so we're actually, we're going to get home and we're just not going to give the command

01:41:16.540 because we know if we give it, they're probably going to disobey. And we know that it's our job

01:41:21.060 to remove disobedience from their heart. Rebellion is bound up in the heart of the child

01:41:25.020 and there's a way to remove it. The Bible gives and it's not just preaching the gospel. It turns 0.96

01:41:29.500 out if you read the Bible, there's another way to remove it also. So we've got to do some of that,

01:41:33.520 but we don't have to do it all the time. We also need to have moments of peace and joy and happiness.

01:41:38.540 and one of the ways that we can have that in our home is by pursuing jesus and loving him

01:41:41.740 and also one of the ways you can have peace in your home is by having just moments where um

01:41:48.820 where you're not constantly training i could give the command i would be justified to do so

01:41:54.400 but you don't it's it's just like the military west it's like um yeah like like the drill

01:42:00.660 sergeant could say and another mile and another mile and another and he would have the authority

01:42:05.780 to do so right and and and the the platoon really does need to get whipped into shape but there is

01:42:10.940 a fine line of like you want to train them but you'd like them to still be alive at the end of

01:42:15.880 it right the best leader doesn't break he shapes right like that's an actual good leader that says

01:42:20.760 you've got to get to this destination and i can't do it in three months but give me a year and i

01:42:24.900 could and he actually gets them there it's not just uh yes sir two out of 100 finally met the

01:42:30.780 fitness standards right it's i got the majority along with me and they love me for it that's a

01:42:35.600 good leader amen eric what are your thoughts on the question just how to bring your wife

01:42:39.880 along she's she's struggling with patriarchy yeah i think particularly in the instance where

01:42:45.760 somebody's coming out of new age you know coming into patriarchy at all yeah my my first thought

01:42:53.000 is exactly what michael said you know you're you're talking about a bruised reed and a smoldering

01:42:58.000 wick and you're thinking about, okay, how can I, when you think about that, you see no flame,

01:43:02.640 but there's smoke coming off of it. So there's gotta be something going on here. Uh, but in

01:43:06.500 that situation, the Lord is gracious. He's merciful. You're going to do everything you can

01:43:10.080 to, to encourage whatever growth you do see. Um, I think being gentle in the way that you lead is a

01:43:16.380 really good thing. Encouragement. The only other thing I'd add to the discussion is it really is

01:43:20.960 something that you ideally are not the only voice uh in their lives particularly what we've seen in

01:43:28.300 community here if you could be in context where you just see modeled other versions of biblical

01:43:35.120 femininity uh that has an appeal and an allure to it where you'll find wives who are new to our

01:43:41.640 community saying things like that we didn't even necessarily tell them they just said that woman

01:43:46.180 you know she carries herself well she's so respectful to her husband i want to grow into

01:43:50.380 that we're creatures who imitate that's how god designed us so i think also having you know wise

01:43:56.140 companions uh for them role models to look up to can be a really good piece of advice

01:44:01.220 now we apply that right to vlad's question as well vlad's great brother and he asked the question

01:44:07.360 i think it really is closely related to your answer what are some practical methods to help

01:44:11.460 a wife be more comfortable in submitting in all things becoming less uncomfortable with the true

01:44:15.820 amount of control a husband has so very much so in that vein but basically saying there could be a

01:44:20.020 level where like a wife's coming into it and she's like holy cow he has a lot of authority like there

01:44:25.620 really isn't aside from the extremes go kill your neighbor which no one in the right mind would ever

01:44:30.460 order but aside from the extremes like he has close to not truly only god is true and ultimate

01:44:36.360 final authority but he's got a lot of authority and that's that's scary so to apply to that patience

01:44:42.320 grace and then demonstrating so authority versus prudence you can have the authority but it may

01:44:47.660 not be prudent to do something demonstrating as much as possible over time when i do exercise this

01:44:53.440 which is my right and does have to be obeyed i temper it with prudence every time i'm not coming

01:44:58.780 off half cocked go i like i don't even know but like go whatever it would be you're not saying

01:45:05.600 silly things saying like i have the authority i'm saying this and it ties directly your wife

01:45:09.640 comes home from the store and she forgot an ingredient go back to the store right now right 0.83

01:45:13.820 you know like submission to that is a lot scarier and you could you do have that authority you could

01:45:18.680 say it and you could say it kindly but you don't have to yep exactly just say it we'll get it next

01:45:23.020 time and then but then point being comfortable with wait i know i'm not going to come home be

01:45:26.900 ordered to go back to the store 45 minutes away or you know go clean the chicken coop three times

01:45:31.860 a day no that authority is only coming in place when it's for the good hey that kid really needs

01:45:35.940 a spanking and it's for love and it's for kindness or or this isn't modest and it's actually unloving

01:45:40.220 to you and others around i can see that that's being exercised with prudence i think that's the

01:45:44.700 way you help grow in comfort no well said good good all right we have a lot of super chats so

01:45:49.900 gentlemen real quick the only thing i was going to add on that though is just um it's just important

01:45:56.160 to understand like whether you call it sphere sovereignty or whether you call it you know

01:45:59.200 classical two kingdoms however you want to frame it whatever theological framework it is important

01:46:03.860 to understand that in the home, the husband has a, the husband slash father, the measure of

01:46:10.380 authority that he has, biblically speaking, what the Bible says, right? God's the only one who has,

01:46:15.300 you know, inherent authority. All human authority is vested authorities. It's an extension of God.

01:46:20.180 God gives it to them. And so it's not limitless, not in the true sense, but a husband slash father

01:46:26.400 is the closest in terms of human authority figures. It's the closest to limitless authority.

01:46:33.860 if you command your wife to do something god forbids that's outside of your authority or if

01:46:40.760 you um forbid her from doing something that god commands that's outside of your authority um apart

01:46:46.360 from that as husband slash father um that that human position office head of household has more

01:46:57.040 authority than any other human office in all of the created cosmos an emperor i mean even kings

01:47:06.820 it's like well we we don't want to have a monarchy that would be tyranny um and it's like we have a

01:47:11.380 deep state regime that has cameras everywhere and monitors all of your data and knows exactly what

01:47:16.400 like no accountability yeah dude kings back in the day they had no clue what the peasants way

01:47:20.800 over there on the farm like they had a ton of freedom people had actually a lot of freedom

01:47:25.220 But my point is to say, even in what you would deem as a more tyrannical form of civil government, that king, even if we did have a monarchy, that king still would not, under God, and even if he tried to, he would not be able to pull it off.

01:47:42.900 So in terms of what God's word gives, affords to him, and in terms of his own human attempts, even if he's trying to be a tyrant, he still does not have as much authority as the head of household.

01:47:52.500 head of household has a ton of authority um but you because you have that authority you get to

01:47:58.100 choose how frequently you're going to execute it and what you're going you know what what are going

01:48:04.080 to be the deal breakers and where when are you going to actually draw a line in the sand are

01:48:07.440 you going to make are you going to make a fight about everything because you you actually have

01:48:10.840 the authority to choose not to okay uh let's go we got some more super chats good down a little

01:48:16.320 uh granddad farms he gives us um five dollars thanks granddad farms we really appreciate it

01:48:22.640 he says ga good afternoon gentlemen and eric ga and happy friday happy friday okay and then we've

01:48:28.540 got a nobody special he says is theonomy a trap for unsuccessful men eric what do you think

01:48:35.460 is theonomy a trap uh that's a super chat from nobody special thank you nobody special

01:48:40.400 is theonomy a trap for unsuccessful men uh wow that that has a seems like a lot of baggage

01:48:47.440 attached to it i don't know what the whole context of that question is but uh i would say no not

01:48:51.760 necessarily uh i've done lots of uh lots of good guys in that camp uh joel joel webin kind of

01:48:59.800 depending on very successful man no it would be my short answer it could be

01:49:06.680 yeah okay there you go nobody's special that's you know what you give a hundred

01:49:12.080 dollar super chat and you get a 45 minute answer

01:49:14.320 that's not true um yeah i don't really have anything to add to i don't know exactly what

01:49:21.500 you're getting at but uh we appreciate the support and i agree with eric um okay let's see

01:49:27.080 daniel bartos oh wow fifty dollars super chat thank you so much for the generosity we really

01:49:32.020 appreciate it. He says, this is well overdue and not nearly enough for what you men have done

01:49:37.840 for my spiritual growth and my desires for a greater understanding of God's holy word,

01:49:43.300 the truth. Stand strong and courageous in the spirit of the Lord. God bless. Thank you, Daniel.

01:49:48.500 We really appreciate that. Michael here at the bottom, he says, could you do a podcast on how

01:49:55.100 you do discipline? That's a great question. I've addressed it some in the past. It's difficult

01:50:02.860 because that's one of those topics. It's not just hashtag based or controversial and you'll get

01:50:07.420 grief, but we live in a world that hates children. I mean, hates them. And I'm not just being

01:50:14.740 hyperbolic. I would back that up with scripture. Spare the rod, spoil the child. People always say

01:50:19.880 that's not in the Bible. You're right. The Bible says way worse than spoil. It doesn't say spare 1.00

01:50:24.340 the rod, spoil the child. It says that he who spares the rod hates his son. That if you don't

01:50:30.440 discipline, you actually hate the child, and gentle parenting is not biblical. The Bible tells us how

01:50:36.840 to discipline. Now, it doesn't mean that that's the exhaustive, exclusive form of discipline. You

01:50:41.680 can't ever discipline in any other way, but that is a part of discipline, especially in the little

01:50:46.920 years, the earlier years of life. So in the younger years of life, spanking is a non-negotiable

01:50:55.620 Christian part of discipline. But because we live in a world that hates children,

01:50:59.440 the moment that our world that hates God and therefore hates his image as they see it in

01:51:04.000 children, the moment they see someone loving children, because to discipline a child is love,

01:51:09.300 per Hebrews chapter 12, God disciplines his sons, those that he loves. The moment that our

01:51:13.900 child-hating world sees a parent loving children, they will try to take those children away.

01:51:21.200 They will. They will actually try to take your kids. So this isn't just, oh, I'll get in trouble

01:51:26.120 on X. You know, I'm in trouble on X every day of the week, every day of the week, no matter what.

01:51:31.740 It's not about that. But this is one where people will actually, they really will try to ruin your

01:51:38.620 life, legally take your kids the whole nine yards. So to answer the question...

01:51:42.380 It just happened a couple months ago.

01:51:43.580 Someone talked about disciplining his son.

01:51:45.540 CPS was there and everything.

01:51:47.420 It was a big deal.

01:51:49.000 We're not talking just about people.

01:51:50.200 We're not talking about in England or in Germany.

01:51:53.140 Right.

01:51:53.600 No, here in the United States, in Ohio.

01:51:55.040 Here in America.

01:51:55.620 Yep.

01:51:56.340 So to answer the question, yes, I'm willing to go there,

01:52:00.440 but that's one that we would probably have to take our time to think through

01:52:05.180 and be strategic.

01:52:08.280 The wording of it, not the biblical principles of it.

01:52:09.960 Yeah, we know the principles,

01:52:11.340 but how to how to be clear enough to where it's helpful to you guys because if we're so vague then

01:52:17.060 it's not even helpful so we'd have to find a way to be clear enough to be helpful but also careful

01:52:22.860 enough um to not have our children taken from us because we live in a world that hates kids that

01:52:28.420 said there are some signs of life some signs of hope on the horizon um whether it's jd vance or

01:52:35.120 you know elon musk or you know trump's grandkid like just having kids in some of those public

01:52:40.600 spaces and not just hiding them away the kids are always somewhere else um that is encouraging so i

01:52:45.500 think there's hope on the horizon that we might have a more child-friendly culture uh in the

01:52:50.420 future uh but that's an uphill battle and right now um it's it's pretty dangerous okay uh one more

01:52:56.420 super chat modern waggy wagey like a wage kind of someone that's just like yeah i see ten dollars

01:53:04.220 from modern wagey thank you so much wes you want to read it sure question from him he says what do

01:53:09.220 you say to complementarians slash people who do not take the scripture literally great description

01:53:13.980 that says wives can have careers if they also take care of the home to keep fitting with titus

01:53:19.540 two five i don't agree so the question being what do you say to those people they're like i'm

01:53:23.820 complementarian i'm this side or the other and uh as far as titus two five goes women to be keepers 1.00

01:53:29.160 at home well as long as she keeps the home completes that category checks the box the box

01:53:33.680 well she can also have a career as well i'd love to hear from eric but uh we've talked about this

01:53:39.200 before it's not possible to run a home with any number of children well and then have any

01:53:45.880 semblance of a career i could not do my career and watch my kids and i have two kids three and

01:53:51.400 one like i just i couldn't do it i know of no situation that does not involve child care for

01:53:58.200 40 hours a week maybe sending all of them to school so this would be maybe you're done having

01:54:02.520 young children sending all of them to school which is a different category and maybe a different 0.75

01:54:06.700 conversation but i just know of nobody 20 to 40 2 3 4 kids any wife that's doing a great job in

01:54:14.280 the home loving her husband watching her children that would have any reasonable bandwidth for any 1.00

01:54:19.040 type of meaningful job aside from something like she does nurse one night a week overnight there

01:54:26.040 are some arrangements where financially it makes sense with the time it makes sense it's not a high

01:54:31.420 commitment. Hey, I make $400 a week to do eight hours on a Wednesday night to make some great

01:54:37.980 money for our family. But as far as nine to five, as far as four days a week, there's nothing that

01:54:43.280 you're doing for one that's more valuable than your children. And there's nothing you're doing

01:54:47.100 that you're not split in two directions, neither passing the kids off to someone else or ultimately

01:54:52.380 just not really doing a good job at whatever day job you would have. Eric, well said, Wes. Eric,

01:54:57.740 What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a very simple principle that none of us,

01:55:03.040 as far as I'm aware, are capable of being in two places at one time. And so when you think about

01:55:08.560 that, you're like, OK, well, yeah, as Wes said, like unless you farm out 90 percent of the job

01:55:14.360 to other people, you're not physically capable of doing that. I think the other operative word

01:55:19.460 there is career. Obviously, a woman can work, meaning that she can serve her household. She 1.00

01:55:25.560 can help her husband in the productive economy of the home, all those things. But yeah, not

01:55:29.980 physically actually possible to do two separate things and actually be fully involved in the full

01:55:36.200 role of motherhood. Good. Well said. Yeah. So much of it, I think, is wanting your wife's labor

01:55:42.220 to be attached to you as her head. Every wife works, but what we want to see is we want to 0.93

01:55:54.640 see wives working for um for her man rather than the man um we want to see uh in other words 0.89

01:56:03.860 and part of it honestly is like believing in the truth and the power of god's word but then also

01:56:09.620 believing in um the you know he who finds a wife finds a good thing believing in the wife that the

01:56:15.220 lord sovereignly in in his mercy gave you as a blessing as a gift to you and believing that um

01:56:20.660 that you employing her will actually benefit your household more than farming her out to be employed

01:56:27.560 by someone else. That her gifts and her strengths and her ability and her labor and all these

01:56:31.960 different things under your headship and your direction could actually be more productive

01:56:38.660 and more profitable than farming her out to some other man who has not made vows to her,

01:56:44.880 who is not in covenant with her, who has not promised to love her as Christ would love the

01:56:48.680 church, seeing her as yours. She belongs to you and having her work with you. Like the Proverbs

01:56:56.840 31 woman is a working woman. It's all attached to the home, but there are things outside of the 0.99

01:57:02.360 home. She's doing it from the home, but she's doing land acquisition. She sees a field and

01:57:07.860 purchases it, but she's doing it, number one, with whose money? Her husband's money. So it's

01:57:13.040 the husband's estate. It's his resources, his money that she's using, and it's underneath his

01:57:18.280 discretion um and and she's you know she's still doing the the legwork and probably looking into

01:57:23.900 the fields and comparing and blah blah blah but um but she's doing all this whether it's real

01:57:28.240 estate or whether it's um i don't know some some side business on etsy or whatever but it's all

01:57:34.340 it's it's under in terms of like if it was a llc it would be underneath her husband's name

01:57:41.100 as the llc it was like you know it would be you know eric khan incorporated you know joel webbin

01:57:47.260 incorporated michael belch incorporated wesley todd it's under under that entity under that

01:57:52.920 entity and that supervision an extension an arm extending from from that um core unit that she's 1.00

01:57:59.580 being productive and developing and um all those things so wives can work the question is how 0.99

01:58:04.360 where um and and attached to who that's very different than just sending the wife out of the

01:58:11.200 home to report to someone else and the last thing i'll say on that that i always find

01:58:15.180 ironic is uh guys who say well husbands don't have that kind of authority and a man can't tell

01:58:21.080 his wife you know but but then they're perfectly fine with women working outside of the home

01:58:26.360 where they go and typically work for a man and the authority that they're perfectly comfortable 0.99

01:58:32.120 with him having is all the way down to the exact time that they show up how many breaks they're

01:58:38.380 allowed to have when they can take those breaks what uh what wardrobe they have to wear down

01:58:45.120 to the shoes and socks i mean every corporate employer like we're fine here's the deal the

01:58:52.820 world just hates husbands we just have to be honest about that and and let's be further honest

01:58:57.780 conservative pastors conservative in in quotation marks for the listener here

01:59:03.440 conservative pastors hate husbands they don't have any problem they don't have any problem

01:59:10.820 with a corporate employer saying, here's your dress code. Here's your schedule. 0.62

01:59:20.300 No, you can't go on vacation without first running it by me. And I might tell you no.

01:59:26.840 All those kinds of things. And that's one of the biggest things. I can't remember who it was that

01:59:30.780 I was talking to. I can't remember who it was, but it was really insightful. But just talking

01:59:37.100 about one of the problems with the wife working, it's not just that the work is out of the home 0.99

01:59:40.900 rather than attached to the home. That's one principle. But then the other is if she's working 1.00

01:59:46.480 for someone else, then the house is divided. You have just made a decision as a husband to usurp

01:59:52.460 your own authority. Because think about that. So, you're the head of the home. You're the head

01:59:57.140 of your wife. And now you are asking your wife to go ask another man if your family can go on 0.96

02:00:03.380 vacation think about that for a sec process that you head of the home who are called by christ to

02:00:10.260 be willing to lay your life down for your wife and are daily washing her in the words and have

02:00:15.140 been given she's been given the command to submit to you and everything and yet you have to ask your

02:00:21.220 wife to go ask another man before your family makes decisions and all these conservative

02:00:30.020 of complementarian pastors are fine with that. They're fine with another man who has not made

02:00:35.600 vows to her, who will not give his life for her, who does not love her, having that kind of

02:00:41.500 executive authority over precise details of, you can't go on a break right now. They're fine with

02:00:48.320 that woman working outside of the home for Amazon that will say, I'm sorry, you can't go to the 1.00

02:00:52.020 bathroom. So they're going to get mad at me with a video about a husband's authority 1.00

02:00:58.280 and talking about my young children when my young not my wife but my young children when they need

02:01:04.780 to go to the bathroom and the example that i was giving was again my children three years old four

02:01:09.460 years old five years old um it's bedtime hey go potty before bed i was saying a father doesn't

02:01:15.380 have that authority and so they're gonna make a clip like that go viral like ali bestucky who was

02:01:20.940 the first person to make that transcript that's what it was about go viral and started this whole

02:01:25.200 feud. They're going to freak out about that. Meanwhile, they're going to say that it's

02:01:31.060 perfectly permissible for a man at Amazon Incorporated to tell not children who are five

02:01:38.000 years old, but a full grown woman who is not their wife, who they've not made vows to when she can go

02:01:43.440 to the bathroom. So just admit you're hypocrites, you're hypocrites. And at the end of the day, 1.00

02:01:51.540 you hate husbands and you love feminism and you're compromised eric any thoughts

02:01:59.700 i don't know joel that was a lot of fire breathing truth right there 0.98

02:02:04.780 yeah i do i do actually think it's it's it's a lot of the same thing just hypocrisy with that

02:02:10.700 situation uh the amount of authority uh given outside the home i think it's also interesting

02:02:16.320 too when you get to uh the complementarian camp they're also willing to let wives go into

02:02:22.600 environments that are hostile including law enforcement uh it's not safe so physical harm

02:02:28.240 becomes involved in those things um and yeah again just the woman can actually be safeguarded

02:02:35.100 and thriving in a home environment where a husband who loves her is making those decisions rather 0.99

02:02:39.620 than a corporate boss who more than likely sees her as uh you know a disposable line item on a

02:02:45.560 budget amen michael west any thoughts no it's good it's good okay uh last one cameron stevenson

02:02:55.720 he said joel did i hear correctly that brian silvey won't be making it to the conference

02:02:59.200 this year due to his wife expecting uh their child around a baby coming around that time

02:03:05.060 um no uh that that's not the case i was actually in ogden as uh eric can testify just a few weeks

02:03:11.860 ago and i told lexi to her face right because i just talked about other men having authority i

02:03:17.540 said i'm so sorry to hear that brian won't be there for the birth of your next child

02:03:20.780 because he will be at the conference this is baby number seven at this point like

02:03:25.280 you're there at that point it's like i'm sorry it's your seventh kid um no yeah he he is going

02:03:32.100 to miss out uh brian gave me a hard time because he told me like people are like there must be

02:03:36.640 something going on that they're not being honest about that augen you know is upset with joel

02:03:41.060 about something um because um you know brian pulling out of the conference because i was in

02:03:45.800 trouble for something at that it's like just because joel's in trouble i'm always in trouble

02:03:48.980 i'm always in trouble but they're like joel's in trouble and so brian's backing out and they're

02:03:53.020 like if it was really a baby they would have known way in advance well here's the truth

02:03:56.000 i did know way in advance brian told me months and months and months and months ago

02:04:00.540 and i just in my heart of hearts i considered it i thought about it and i just said no i don't

02:04:06.580 believe it i don't believe it i just don't believe it's happening and i left his picture on the

02:04:11.720 conference promo and i just kept running the image with brian right there smiling with his little

02:04:17.320 handlebar mustache for like four months after he had told me and at a certain point like he was

02:04:22.120 like all right joel i'm just going to post on x because you refused to announce it i'm just going

02:04:26.480 to say i'm going to have to announce it for you that i am not coming to the conference so that's

02:04:30.400 how that shook out that's called denial that was denial i just couldn't believe it it hurt it just

02:04:34.920 hurt too much to acknowledge it um this is the end of the episode eric thanks so much for coming

02:04:39.620 on the show any final thoughts for our listeners oh wow yeah i would just say i encourage people

02:04:45.580 to continue uh pressing in on these issues don't be discouraged when you see either failures or

02:04:51.860 criticism um but you know there are a lot of good people doing a lot of good work and and point i

02:04:58.060 always leave people with if you can be a part of a community whether that's georgetown texas

02:05:02.500 ogden utah anywhere else you can be a part of a community where people are thriving

02:05:07.100 these sorts of things don't quite impact you as much you realize our people are great we continue

02:05:12.680 to grow and uh that's an outside distraction just keep doing the good work and and christ

02:05:17.760 will bless that so just encourage people with that amen so our conference is happening april 3rd

02:05:24.280 4th and 5th we'd love for you guys to come crisis king how to defeat trash world eric will be there

02:05:28.880 Dan Burkholder will be there.

02:05:30.800 The Viking.

02:05:31.900 Brian Svea will be there.

02:05:32.700 Brian Svea will be there.

02:05:33.740 He doesn't know that.

02:05:34.540 Lexi doesn't know that.

02:05:35.460 But I know that.

02:05:36.140 He'll be there.

02:05:37.580 And Ben Garrett will be there.

02:05:38.900 And then a host of a bunch of other people will be there.

02:05:41.380 But then also, just a few months after that, two months after that, in June, Eric, real quick, do you want to plug your conference?

02:05:48.020 Yeah, absolutely.

02:05:48.980 June 12th through 14th, Ogden, Utah.

02:05:51.700 We have a host of wonderful speakers, including our very own Joel Webbin.

02:05:56.200 And I say our very own, because I feel like you kind of belong to us a little bit, Joel.

02:06:00.280 That's fair.

02:06:00.880 That's fair.

02:06:01.840 For better or for worse.

02:06:04.200 Yeah, that's right.

02:06:05.140 For better or worse.

02:06:05.880 We own all of it.

02:06:07.980 Yeah, Joel will be there, Brian Sauve, myself, Dan Burkholder.

02:06:12.260 We've got Stephen Wolf, Andrew Isker.

02:06:14.100 So it's going to be a really good time.

02:06:15.600 We're going to be talking about recovering the spirit of American greatness. 0.99

02:06:18.980 It's time to get back to the Christian Protestant vision for America that built this country.

02:06:24.400 no more hiding under the longhouse as it were and uh we'll we'll do some networking there's even

02:06:30.820 going to be some games some i think rock throwing uh scottish style games and no i'm not joking

02:06:36.460 so joel you'll be participating in that no i'm sure he will be yes your failures will be broadcast

02:06:43.940 for the world to see so just i'm just saying you better get in shape i can't do it um i will be

02:06:48.660 there and i will be spectating i'm not going to allow ogden to just video record me to publicly

02:06:55.220 mock me for the next all right michael you're in yeah there you go somebody better step up

02:07:00.140 no i'll be there i'm i'm planning to nice and that's what are the dates june what

02:07:04.620 yeah june 12th through 14th you can find more information new christened press.com

02:07:09.120 slash 2025 great new christened press.com slash 2025 all right that's it for the show

02:07:16.040 that ends wraps up the week for us thank you guys so much for listening and all of your prayers all

02:07:22.040 of your support all of your encouragement we really appreciate it we got a lot of great support

02:07:26.500 and encouragement for the episode that we did this last wednesday just a couple days ago on genetics

02:07:32.680 and race and and all these kinds of things wading into those very controversial waters but the church

02:07:38.420 does need to be able to address these things biblically from the book of special revelation

02:07:42.860 and natural revelation, the way that God has constructed the world, what God has written

02:07:47.760 to us in his word, and we need to do it courageously because people have real questions and

02:07:53.040 we need real answers.

02:07:54.160 And a lot of you guys, obviously people were upset about it, but a lot of people privately

02:07:59.000 emailed me or messaged me.

02:08:01.060 Messaged me as well.

02:08:01.740 Yeah, messaged Wes, thanking us for being willing to answer some questions that people

02:08:07.100 have had for a long time that nobody's been willing to answer.

02:08:11.180 So thank you for your encouragement.

02:08:12.860 um, it's hard. It is, it does take a toll. We enjoy what we do. We're happy and honored to do

02:08:19.400 it. Um, but as you guys see publicly, we, um, we get a lot of heat, a lot of heat. And, uh,

02:08:26.700 and so you guys, those of you who are able to support the ministry financially, um, goes a

02:08:31.940 long way. Those of you who are willing to reach out and, uh, thank us or encourage us goes a long

02:08:37.440 way. Uh, those of you who are able to come to the conference and show your support, um,

02:08:42.100 A lot of people, sadly, Christians, a lot of Christians are rooting for it to fail.

02:08:46.500 They do not want us to have a thousand people at New Christendom Conference or Right Response Conference.

02:08:51.960 And you guys being willing to do that encourages us.

02:08:54.740 It benefits you.

02:08:55.980 And it also helps to show our Christian brothers and sisters that we love that, no, this is what the Word of God says.

02:09:04.420 This is not new.

02:09:05.320 It's not flashy.

02:09:06.160 It's not novel.

02:09:07.260 This is a return to the old ways, the old past. 0.91

02:09:10.100 This is what our Christian forefathers believed.

02:09:13.020 This is what the Bible teaches.

02:09:14.800 We are not the anomaly.

02:09:17.100 The 20th century in Western civilization, in Christendom, that's the anomaly.

02:09:23.420 And so we look like the anomaly because everybody has been derailed.

02:09:28.460 But we're actually getting back to the common denominator, the constant.

02:09:33.400 And when you guys support things like New Christendom, you support Right Response,

02:09:37.940 You come to the conference in person, even though it's a sacrifice, it's hard, but, you

02:09:44.140 know, to take off work, it costs money to travel, but when you physically show up to

02:09:49.020 our conferences, that makes our Christian brothers and sisters who disagree with us

02:09:54.820 over these things, it forces them to have to reconsider, and that matters.

02:10:01.840 When something starts to get enough traction, people hate it, but eventually they have to

02:10:07.920 to reckon with it they have to consider it and um it's not that we're just trying to rub it in

02:10:13.360 with people who disagree no we want to win and and we want them to eventually change teams and

02:10:19.760 one of the ways that we do it is if it's just us podcasting you know throwing out podcasts into the

02:10:25.360 wind and hosting podcast you know uh conferences with 50 people there's nothing wrong with that

02:10:30.080 but if that's all it is um then then they're never going to give us the time of day it's

02:10:35.600 my point is it's, it's not even so much us. It's not Eric. It's not new Christendom. It's not,

02:10:39.620 it's not me. It's not right response. It's you, the listener. It's, it's you guys,

02:10:44.560 all of you guys, um, come coming, you know, and, and contributing online and the conversation on

02:10:50.980 X and coming and liking our posts and listening to our podcast and showing up to our conference

02:10:55.680 and listening to Brian Sovey's music. It's, it's you guys that are making things like biblical

02:11:00.940 patriarchy, the Bible's teaching on biblical roles of men and women come back into the center

02:11:07.060 forefront to where the rest of the Christian church has to deal with it. You guys are making

02:11:11.720 that happen.

The NXR Podcast - February 22, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Are “Trad-Wives” Just A Sham？

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