The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Christ Is King! ｜ Andrew Klavan, Zionism, & Universalism.

00:00:00.000 Andrew Klavan of the Daily Wire complained that the phrase Christ is King is being used as an

00:00:08.640 anti-Semitic dog whistle. He then went on to espouse the heresy of universalism,

00:00:14.840 insisting that many people are faithfully serving Jesus just without knowing it.

00:00:19.580 Tune in now as we carefully debunk these claims.

00:00:30.000 all right welcome back to the Wednesday live stream for those of you who are joining us for

00:00:35.760 the first time what we do is Wednesday and Monday Wednesday Friday so we have three shows every week

00:00:41.980 at 4 p.m central time it's on Twitter it's on YouTube you know it drops a little bit after on

00:00:47.080 the podcast platform Spotify Apple and then and it'll pop up on our website and our app but mainly

00:00:52.520 if you want to watch right when these episodes come out it's 4 p.m central time on Monday and

00:00:57.320 then wednesday and friday on twitter and youtube that's where you'll get the first glimpse and so

00:01:02.860 uh today what we're doing monday is a pre-recorded episode with guests that i pipe in friday we call

00:01:07.720 it the friday special it's a multi-part series we're about to start actually next week we'll

00:01:12.860 start uh season two for q2 season two of the friday special with brian silvey and ben garrett

00:01:18.500 a haunted cosmos themed 10-part series which is going to be incredibly unhinged today we are going

00:01:24.360 to be hinged. We're going to do our best to be self-controlled and to be careful and to be

00:01:29.440 utterly biblical in everything that we say, because this is a very controversial topic,

00:01:34.260 but the truth has to be told. So I want to be careful, but I also want to be courageous

00:01:37.820 and not bend the knee to cultural and worldview religious whims of our day. Christ is King. We

00:01:46.940 make no apology for saying it. We will say Christ is King even harder. Christ is King. And we're

00:01:52.680 going to talk about the kingship of Christ, and we're going to talk about the claims from Andrew

00:01:56.980 Clavin that came over this last weekend that some individuals are using that phrase, Christ is king,

00:02:02.880 as a anti-Semitic dog whistle. We're going to show the clip from Clavin, but before we do,

00:02:08.680 there's two main errors that he makes. One, I think, is the way that he subtly defines

00:02:14.140 anti-Semitism. And so we're going to talk about that. What is anti-Semitism? And we're going to

00:02:18.880 talk about the assumed definition that he kind of bakes into the equation. And I think it's done

00:02:25.160 subtly, but it's fairly easy to pick up once you notice it. And so we want to talk about the wrong

00:02:31.040 assumed definition that Clavin is assuming and asserting in this clip of anti-Semitism. And then

00:02:37.180 secondly, we want to talk about universalism because Clavin espouses universalism. And if

00:02:42.860 there was any question, and this clip is definitive, it is not taken out of context.

00:02:47.060 It's very clear that his view, I've heard him espouse his view in the past, and if there was still question, then there shouldn't be any question in the sense that he recently went on the Cross-Politik podcast with Toby Sumter and Chuck Knox and Gabriel Wrench, and they asked him explicitly, you know, what do you, you know, you made this claim, it sounds, you know, like universalism.

00:03:09.420 It sounds like denying the exclusivity of Christ, right?

00:03:12.440 Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

00:03:15.500 No one comes to the Father but by me, you know, or no man can come to the Father unless

00:03:20.280 he gives him to the Son, you know, and so Jesus is the door.

00:03:25.760 He is the way.

00:03:26.600 He is the only way.

00:03:27.660 You know, it's been said by people in the past that, you know, well, this person is

00:03:31.900 a devout Muslim who doesn't recognize Jesus as the eternal Son of God, but she has the fruit of

00:03:40.440 the Spirit because she's filled with peace and joy. No, no. She does not have the fruit of the

00:03:45.400 Spirit because she does not have the Spirit. And she doesn't have the Spirit because the Spirit 0.93

00:03:49.240 proceeds from the Father and the Son, and when you deny the Son, you don't get the Spirit. And

00:03:54.320 that doesn't mean that she's not a kind, outward manifestations of being a kind, humane person,

00:04:01.660 in many regards, but she is not regenerate, and she does not have the Spirit, and therefore she

00:04:05.900 does not have the fruit of the Spirit. But Clavin made it basically sound like that, you know,

00:04:11.780 this person, a person like Ben Shapiro, for instance, and he cites Ben Shapiro, and we'll

00:04:16.100 get there, that could be serving Jesus without knowing it. And he's not just saying that a

00:04:22.880 non-Christian underneath the ultimate banner of the sovereignty of God could be used in outwardly

00:04:29.260 benevolent ways towards humanity and the church. Certainly that's true. Cyrus, we don't know if he 0.96

00:04:34.620 was regenerate, but certainly he was used by God and his sovereignty to be good to the Jews.

00:04:39.680 We see that in Ezra and in Nehemiah. So this idea, I mean, the Bible says that the heart of

00:04:44.940 a king is like waters, like rivers, and he guides it in whichever direction he wants it to go.

00:04:50.100 Trump, Donald Trump, I appreciate Donald Trump. I respect Donald Trump in many ways. I'm grateful

00:04:55.840 for him. I don't believe that Donald Trump, from his own words over many years and many speeches,

00:05:02.060 right? I mean, the guy would typically give a 45-minute speech on a daily basis, so it's not

00:05:06.560 like just an isolated clip. From everything that I've heard from Donald Trump, I could not say,

00:05:10.980 God alone sees the heart, that's true, but I could not say with any confidence that he's born again.

00:05:15.220 I pray that God saves him and that he would be born again. But as of now, if you're saying,

00:05:20.340 Joel, you need to bet your life on yes or no, is Donald Trump saved? Is he born again,

00:05:27.660 regenerate? I'd say no. But my point is, in bringing up Donald Trump, God has used him in

00:05:33.400 profound ways that have been good for the church. Also negative, but in my lifetime, he has been

00:05:39.900 the best president of the United States for the country as a whole, and particularly for Christian

00:05:45.240 people. I know that's a low bar, but you get my point. So God can sovereignly use unregenerate

00:05:50.500 non-Christians. Absolutely. But Clavin goes further than that. I don't think that he's just 1.00

00:05:54.960 saying, well, Ben Shapiro is being used by God in outwardly positive ways while denying Christ

00:06:00.440 inwardly, and therefore he's not a Christian, and therefore when he stands before God, he will be

00:06:05.040 judged and cast into outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. But I love Ben 0.91

00:06:09.420 Shapiro because he's my friend, and I'm praying for salvation. That's not what Clavin said.

00:06:13.000 that's not what he's asserting and if and if there's any lack of clarity from this clip i i

00:06:17.840 encourage you to follow up and watch the podcast uh episode that just dropped yesterday with

00:06:22.640 cross politic where clavin makes it abundantly clear and i told you guys i wasn't going to bring

00:06:26.660 this up but i'm going to bring it up um it's very reminiscent and i think this is part partly where

00:06:31.480 clavin is probably getting it from uh because i know that clavin is a big c.s lewis fan and full

00:06:36.420 disclosure so so am i yep i love c.s lewis very grateful for his works uh my my kids you know

00:06:42.320 we've gone through the whole Narnia series, and then we paused because we had to read The Hobbit,

00:06:47.560 and now we're finishing Treasure Island, and then we'll probably go back to Narnia. Like,

00:06:50.460 my kids, by the time they're grown, will have read all the Narnia books, you know,

00:06:54.180 multiple times, if I have any say in it, and I do because I'm their dad. So, a big fan of the

00:07:00.640 Narnia series, but C.S. Lewis did not have great theology on some things he did, but on other

00:07:07.420 things he did. Anthropology, especially, was really good. Yes. Abolition of Man, you know,

00:07:11.660 there's uh that hideous strength there's multiple yes he had great profound insight into the human

00:07:17.040 condition uh in light of uh the the the biblical truth and and so very helpful but one thing that

00:07:24.100 lewis says in the narnia series it's the last book right the uh which is called the last battle and

00:07:29.260 the last battle is uh between uh the calamans and uh the narnians and the calamans they worship

00:07:35.920 a false god named Tash, and Tash is not a benevolent god like Aslan. Aslan loves his

00:07:43.280 people, and he's good to the Narnians, and he's benevolent and kind and generous and all these

00:07:48.380 things, and gives his life for Edmund, and the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, whereas Tash

00:07:53.340 demands the life of his people. He's a cruel master, and he even lives off of the blood of

00:08:00.360 his people. They're sacrificed to him and he eats them and kills them. And so he's a very wicked 1.00

00:08:06.400 God. And some people, some C.S. Lewis scholars have noted that it may be a comparison between 0.52

00:08:12.360 Christians and Islam and reminiscent of Allah. And I think that that probably is a fair comparison, 1.00

00:08:18.640 maybe a little bit too on the nose. Maybe the comparison breaks down, not at every level,

00:08:22.320 but I think there are something there. And so all that being said, there's one particular soldier

00:08:27.800 in the Calamans' army, in their militia. High up soldier. I think he's a general or lieutenant or

00:08:35.280 something like that, but he's different than all the other Calamans in the sense that he has

00:08:40.400 good character. He's far more reasonable and understanding and benevolent and kind. He's not

00:08:48.260 as cruel as the Calamans are known for being, but he is devout religiously, and so he's a devout

00:08:55.040 worshiper of Tash. And it all leans up to this scene where he goes into the barn where Puzzle

00:09:01.360 the Donkey had been, you know, disguised with this lion skin as Aslan. And, you know,

00:09:07.500 Shift, the ape, was using him to get all the Narnians to do stuff and been to his will.

00:09:12.880 But now Tash has come and set up headquarters in this little stable. And this Calamaran, 0.51

00:09:20.160 the good Calamarin, he goes in there and he's going to go before his god, his maker, as far as

00:09:26.960 he knows, Tash, who he's worshipped all his life. And he goes and then Tash disappears and is run

00:09:34.100 off by Aslan. And Aslan manifests and meets him in the stable. And essentially what Aslan says

00:09:40.160 is that you have been a devout worshipper of Tash all your life, denying Aslan, denying me,

00:09:46.360 and saying that the Narnians are wrong

00:09:48.460 and warring against the Narnians

00:09:49.760 and all these things.

00:09:51.320 But you've been essentially, Aslan says,

00:09:53.340 but you've ultimately been a good man.

00:09:55.080 And so you actually were serving me

00:09:57.180 just by another name.

00:09:58.540 And that's essentially exactly

00:10:00.020 what Clavin says in this clip.

00:10:01.580 And if there was any question,

00:10:02.980 again, he 100% confirms that

00:10:04.960 when he goes on CrossPolitic,

00:10:07.140 which aired yesterday.

00:10:08.080 You can find it on YouTube.

00:10:09.820 It's this same sentiment

00:10:11.960 that Lewis articulates

00:10:13.600 in the last battle of the Narnia series that essentially that someone, not just that they

00:10:19.620 could be as an unregenerate non-believer, be used under the banner of God's sovereignty as all

00:10:25.440 people are under God's sovereignty. No, it's further than that. It's this person worshiping

00:10:30.980 another god, a devout religious person serving another god could still, in the final analysis,

00:10:36.720 when they die, stand before Christ, and Christ say, as Aslan said to this Calamarin,

00:10:44.600 Christ essentially say, oh, you're welcome into heaven. You're saved because you actually have

00:10:49.820 been serving me, although you served me under the banner of Allah or Buddha or whatever. And

00:10:57.800 that is heresy. That's not just, oh, you're off on this. That's heresy. That is not a biblical

00:11:04.160 Christian profession of faith. That denies all the historic creeds, that denies the New Testament,

00:11:11.320 the Old Testament. That is not a Christian belief. And so my prayer is that Clavin would repent, 0.60

00:11:17.700 that he would repent of that false doctrine. And I'm not saying false doctrine, because I want you

00:11:23.260 to feel the proper weight of this. I'm not saying false doctrine like, you know, a difference of

00:11:31.100 pedo-baptism or credo-baptism or continuationism, you know, tongues and prophecy versus

00:11:36.100 cessationism, right? There are certain secondary doctrines that somebody could hold a view that

00:11:41.560 is ultimately, in the final analysis, is unbiblical. It's wrong, right? We're not 0.66

00:11:45.300 relativist. We can't all be right. So if there are two directly contradicting views, you can

00:11:50.080 both be wrong, but you both can't be right. And yet, although one person may be wrong in this

00:11:55.720 secondary theological category, it doesn't mean that they're an unbeliever. But what we're going

00:12:01.300 to show you in this clip, and we'll get to that in a moment, but in this clip is that this idea

00:12:05.920 is espousing universalism, which is a heresy. This is a top-tier theological category,

00:12:11.540 primary doctrine. It's not secondary or tertiary. And to be wrong on this is a really big deal and

00:12:18.900 does absolutely call into question a person's salvation. And so I pray that Clavin would repent

00:12:24.700 of that view. It's absolutely wrong. So two things that you're going to see in this short

00:12:30.700 clip from Clavin, we're going to break it up. So we'll show you the first half and then the second,

00:12:34.340 first half, and then we'll talk about anti-Semitism. And then the second half,

00:12:39.060 and we'll talk about universalism. But the two big errors that Clavin remarkably makes in a very

00:12:44.820 short period of time is, the first is his subtle definition of anti-Semitism. And that's what I 0.90

00:12:53.240 want you to see first and then we'll talk about what actually is anti-semitism and uh before we

00:12:58.480 get into it one more time just got to say christ is king sorry not sorry we make no apology christ

00:13:05.880 is king and if some people are saying that in vain fine whatever but uh christ is king and not

00:13:11.200 ethereally right yeah yeah yeah he is king here and now not at some future point and and not uh

00:13:18.660 king in heaven or king in the 17th dimension. Christ's kingship is both present and here.

00:13:25.800 The kingdom has come. He is in our midst. And that is a political statement. That's another

00:13:30.040 thing. People are saying, well, but if you're saying that because you actually believe that

00:13:33.620 Christ is king in the religious sense, in the biblical sense, but if you're saying it as a

00:13:38.340 political statement, just to score cheap points, no, no, it is a political statement. It's a gospel

00:13:43.120 statement. It's a universally true statement. It's a biblical statement, religious statement,

00:13:47.000 spiritual statement, and it is an earthly political statement. Herod understood the

00:13:51.940 kingship of Jesus Christ. There's a reason why Herod knew it wasn't just that someone meek and

00:13:56.780 mild had been born. Is Christ meek and mild? Yes. But he's not only meek and mild. He's not just the

00:14:02.020 Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He's not less than that, certainly not less. He

00:14:06.580 is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He's also the Lion, the Lion of the tribe

00:14:11.060 of Judah. He is the king who is ruling, who will break the kneecaps of his enemies with an iron

00:14:16.800 scepter. He is a thrice holy God, not just humble and meek and mild, but he is terrible in his

00:14:23.260 judgments, the scripture says. He by no means were part of the wicked. That's Exodus chapter 20. The

00:14:29.020 only hope we have is to be actually covered in the righteousness of Christ, which comes by grace

00:14:33.660 alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And so when we say Christ is king, it is a spiritual,

00:14:38.600 religious biblical statement, but it is also a political statement. Herod knew that a king,

00:14:44.020 not just Messiah or a religious teacher had been born, but he knew according to the prophecies,

00:14:50.280 a king had been born and he knew that that king being born on earth incarnate, that that was a

00:14:56.740 threat to all other kingdoms, to the kingdoms of this world. That's why Herod sought to kill Jesus 0.56

00:15:02.620 and killed all the little boys born in Bethlehem 0.88

00:15:06.120 because he knew that Jesus was a threat, 0.93

00:15:10.280 a political threat, an earthly threat,

00:15:12.840 a tangible threat to the rulers of this world.

00:15:16.200 And you might say, well, that's not what Jesus did.

00:15:18.080 He says, my kingdom is not of this world.

00:15:19.740 But his kingdom is in this world.

00:15:21.480 It's not of this world,

00:15:22.700 meaning it doesn't operate on worldly principles

00:15:24.880 and the source of the power and authority

00:15:27.180 for his kingdom is otherworldly.

00:15:29.220 But his kingdom, although not of the world,

00:15:31.600 it is in the world. And you might say, well, Jesus didn't try to overturn Rome. Yeah, but the

00:15:36.340 teaching of the apostles, which Christ commissioned, eventually did overturn Rome. That is the fruit

00:15:42.800 of Christ's kingship, is that real political kingdoms are eventually, if they are opposed to

00:15:48.180 Christ, they are overturned. So it is a political statement. So when I say Christ is king, I am

00:15:55.220 saying in the biblical sense, in the eternal sense, in the universal sense, the gospel sense,

00:15:59.020 and the law sense, and in the political sense. Christ is king, and every political ruler or

00:16:05.380 religious false worldviews and false religious rulers on this earth who are opposed to his

00:16:10.200 kingship, they will break. Matthew Henry once said, every knee that does not bow will break.

00:16:16.680 So you can either bow your knees in this life by grace, or your knees will eventually be broken

00:16:21.840 in this life, perhaps, or if not, certainly in the life to come. So it is a political statement,

00:16:27.280 and if some people are saying uh christ is king you dirty okay well uh i'm not saying that and

00:16:34.700 and i don't think people should say that but if they're saying christ is king and this means that

00:16:39.700 the jew must repent and the muslim must repent and the buddhist must repent and and james lindsey

00:16:45.880 the atheist must repent then amen amen and we will never ever ever apologize for that so without

00:16:53.540 further ado, here's a clip from Andrew Klaver. 0.77

00:16:56.280 You know, when I did this, by the way, the priest who baptized me said, you know, 0.54

00:17:01.140 Christians won't accept you. You'll still be a Jew. And I said, well, I am. That's my race. I'm 1.00

00:17:04.920 a Jew. I'm proud of my race. It's a great race. It's done many, many great things, including

00:17:08.820 write the Bible. And, you know, I am a Jew. But that hasn't happened at all. Christians have

00:17:13.260 welcomed me with open arms, except this Christ the King anti-Semitic crowd. Christ is the King,

00:17:20.420 and one day every knee will bow and recognize it

00:17:23.900 because he's not just my king, he's king of the universe.

00:17:25.840 But when you use that phrase to mean

00:17:28.920 that God has abandoned his chosen people, the Jews,

00:17:32.900 through whom he came into this world incarnate

00:17:35.940 and that he's broken his promises, 0.55

00:17:38.740 his covenant with the Jews,

00:17:40.300 you are quoting scripture like Satan does in the Bible. 0.88

00:17:44.860 You are quoting scripture to your purposes

00:17:46.620 and that to me is specifically wicked you know all right let's stop there

00:17:52.220 okay we'll get to the second so the second half of the clip is we'll get into the universalism

00:17:58.240 which is just apparent in the second half of the clip but what i want you to notice and i'm going

00:18:02.980 to turn it to michael west here because i know i'm talking a lot i'm going to talk a lot more

00:18:06.340 i'm passionate about this issue i have a lot to say on it but all three of us do but the first

00:18:10.400 thing that i want you to notice is what andrew clavin says he says this christ the king anti-semitic

00:18:16.380 group, okay? So he's saying, to be fair to Claven, he's not saying everyone who says Christ is king

00:18:21.740 is anti-Semitic, but he's saying that some are. But then he goes on to explain precisely what he

00:18:28.240 means by that. And notice what he says is he doesn't say, these guys who are saying Christ

00:18:32.780 is the king, therefore we should commit genocide with the nation state of Israel.

00:18:40.040 No, that's not the example he uses, because that would, of course, be anti-Semitism. 0.97

00:18:44.140 right if they were saying christ is the king and therefore death to every jew that's anti-semitism 0.82

00:18:51.560 that's that is wishing uh physical harm that's putrid hatred towards um both a religious and 0.97

00:18:59.440 ethnic group that would be wrong but that's not what clavin says and this is not an accident

00:19:04.360 this is what you have to be aware of this clavin says um i christians have welcomed me with open

00:19:10.380 arms. So for the most part, they've been very welcoming and receptive to me, except for this

00:19:14.720 Christ the King anti-Semitic group. So you can say Christ is King, but some people are saying it

00:19:20.100 and they mean it as anti-Semitism. Okay, Clavin, work that out for us, flesh it out. What's that

00:19:24.820 mean? Define it. And then what does he say? They're anti-Semitic. This is what he's saying.

00:19:29.400 They're anti-Semitic because they deny God's promises for Israel. They say that God broke

00:19:35.920 his promises for israel or god's not going to fulfill his promise so notice for for clavin and

00:19:41.380 and then he follows it up just in case there was any any question he says those who say that god's

00:19:45.200 denied his promises for israel or not not going to he's broken his promises he's not going to

00:19:49.200 fulfill uh these future promises for israel he says that's wicked he uses the word wicked so

00:19:54.720 he's saying there's this uh christ is the king anti-semitic group um and then and then what is

00:19:59.640 anti-semitism mean in this context for clavin it means uh hating the jews no it means wishing

00:20:05.840 them physical harm? No. It means wishing them spiritual harm? No. It just means denying that

00:20:10.700 they're God's favored, special people with futuristic in our future, right? Not just at

00:20:16.980 the time of the writing of the New Testament, but in our future now, in 2024, 2,000 years later,

00:20:23.500 still in our future, there are either land promises or at least at minimal spiritual

00:20:28.280 promises for the nation of Israel still in our future today. To deny that, to say that there

00:20:34.260 are not these promises and that Israel, according to the flesh, ethnic Israel, the nation state of

00:20:39.940 Israel are not God's chosen people today to deny that is what he is equating as being wicked. And

00:20:46.700 that is ridiculous. And let me just give you one illustration, and then we'll show you three 0.93

00:20:51.000 orthodox views. They're not all right, but they're all orthodox, okay? Three orthodox views within

00:20:57.200 Christian faith that a person can hold in regards to Israel. And so that's what I want to break down

00:21:05.420 in a moment. But let me just give you this illustration real quick from atheism. Let's

00:21:08.720 use atheism as an example. Do atheists believe that the Jews are God's chosen people? No,

00:21:14.960 they don't even believe there is a God. James Lindsay doesn't believe that the Jews... Catch 0.96

00:21:20.540 this irony real quick james lindsey on twitter is coming after uh alleged anti-semite christians

00:21:28.700 um but but he doesn't even believe god exists james lindsey doesn't believe that the jews

00:21:35.340 are god's chosen people how can there be a god's chosen people without a god so so are all think

00:21:41.700 about that for a second you need to be able to answer this question are all atheists and this

00:21:45.420 is just one example right atheists are not the only only group but it's just an easy group to

00:21:50.280 use to make make the point um are all atheists uh inherently anti-semitic is anti-semitism

00:21:57.780 innate to atheism or any other religion or buddhism or islam exactly and it literally

00:22:06.060 would come down to this every single religion except for judaism and maybe you could carve

00:22:11.640 out an exception for the dispensational uh evangelicals dispensationalist within uh the

00:22:17.020 Christian category. But everyone else outside of that, atheists are just one example, but you're

00:22:21.300 right. It would be Muslims, it would be Buddhists, it would be atheists, it would be agnostics. 0.98

00:22:25.880 Nobody else believes that the Jews are God's chosen people. So I would want to know from

00:22:32.620 Clavin, is James Lindsay an anti-Semite? Are all atheists, are you claiming that all atheists,

00:22:38.740 because all atheists deny that there's any divine promise for Israel? Because they deny

00:22:44.620 divinity right right so so are you claiming that all atheists are anti-semitic and if not

00:22:51.380 and i would hope not if not um then then are any christians allowed are you calling into question

00:22:59.860 motives character uh salvation all the and i am calling into question clavin's salvation i won't

00:23:08.120 be i won't be uh ambiguous about that i am calling into question your salvation due to your the

00:23:13.820 the second portion of the clip that we're going to show, your universalism.

00:23:17.480 But I would want to know from Clavin, are you calling into question any Christians

00:23:21.600 who simply don't believe that the Jews are still, not that they never were,

00:23:28.460 every Christian believes that the Jews under the old covenant were God's chosen people

00:23:31.760 from whom he brought about the Messiah.

00:23:34.820 But are you saying that as a prerequisite for not being anti-Semitic, for not being wicked,

00:23:41.120 which is the word you use?

00:23:41.980 It was more than wicked. It was treating Scripture the way that Satan treats Scripture.

00:23:46.060 So do you think all Christians are twisting Scripture in a satanic form, in a satanic way, 0.75

00:23:51.860 and wicked and anti-Semitic if they simply believe that the Jewish people, ethnically speaking,

00:24:01.360 today, in the year of our Lord, 2024, are no longer God's covenant people, and that he therefore

00:24:08.220 does not have any in our future any futuristic promises for them are we saying that that view

00:24:16.480 held by any christian is uh inherently anti-semitic satanic right you're right because that's that's

00:24:23.420 the words used and wicked and wicked um and jenna ellis said heresy over the weekend yeah

00:24:27.760 and what she called a heresy uh was uh covenant theology right i mean what she called label it

00:24:36.280 replacement. You need to know that also, listener. Replacement theology, don't use that phrase.

00:24:41.740 That is a pejorative. That is a derogatory, demeaning, intentional pejorative. The doctrine

00:24:48.740 is supersessionism, or you could call it simply fulfillment theology. It's not that God broke

00:24:55.560 his promises with Israel. We're going to get into this. It's that God, covenant theology holds,

00:25:01.300 and this is the historic view of Christianity, dispensationalism is the novel view. That's the

00:25:08.320 new view on the scene from Schofield and Darby in the mid-1800s, right? So it's only about 150

00:25:14.820 years old. But if you're looking at the Puritans, you're looking at the Reformers, you're looking 0.97

00:25:19.680 at church fathers for 1,850 years, right? Are you going to condemn? That's what Jenna Ellis is

00:25:28.040 doing. She's condemning every Christian for 1,850 years. Fulfillment theology, it's not 0.89

00:25:37.540 replacement theology, but fulfillment theology is saying not that God broke his promises or

00:25:42.720 failed to keep his promises, but that God has already fulfilled his promises. He did...

00:25:47.500 It is fulfilling.

00:25:48.240 Yeah.

00:25:48.620 It's fulfilling.

00:25:49.220 Well, it is fulfilling in the church, in the church. But Israel, according to the flesh,

00:25:54.380 god fulfilled those promises read the book of joshua right we talked through the book of joshua

00:25:58.840 in our church uh recently now we're in the book of ezra and all these things have been incredibly

00:26:02.660 timely for what's going on in our culture but joshua towards the end of the book of joshua

00:26:06.800 i believe it's chapter 20 or 21 um the lord uh speaks through joshua and says uh he says uh

00:26:14.100 once they had had fought all all these wars of conquest in the land of canaan yeah um it says

00:26:21.080 uh and the lord brought about it says he fulfilled all his promises not some or most all of his

00:26:27.360 promises which he made through moses to give you all the land yeah so here's the deal uh the land

00:26:33.760 promises for israel uh it's not that god changed his mind it's not that he made a promise and

00:26:37.820 said well i'm not going to keep it no no uh god god did it he he did it like a long time ago

00:26:45.180 um and then the problem is that israel was faithless and eventually was spewed out of the

00:26:50.320 land. But God fulfilled his land promises. Which he promised would happen. Which he also said 0.92

00:26:54.840 would happen. Post-exilic prophets, so like Isaiah, like sooner would a nursing mother forget her 0.86

00:26:58.700 child, then I would forget you, O Israel, Malachi, I the Lord change not, so you the sons of Jacob 0.94

00:27:03.640 are not consumed. Those are fulfilled in the church, in the true people of God. We, the people

00:27:08.320 of God, are not consumed because God doesn't change. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today,

00:27:12.380 and forever. So land promises, and those post-exilic prophets, Isaiah, Malachi, those others,

00:27:17.360 those are found in god's true people the children of abraham by faith right exactly children according

00:27:22.520 to the promise by the spirit and not merely by the flesh uh but but the point is what jenna ellis

00:27:27.500 said about replacement theology which again fulfillment theology that this has already

00:27:32.340 been fulfilled um she and she she said explicitly it's heresy multiple people questioned her on

00:27:38.860 twitter about it and she doubled down and doubled down and doubled down and said heresy heresy

00:27:43.000 heresy um and uh you just need to know that's um that is not merely condemning uh some far alt-right

00:27:51.080 you know whatever uh she she is saying that that statement um is is explicitly saying that um that

00:27:59.020 rc sprall spent his life teaching heresy uh that joel beakey right now is teaching heresy by the

00:28:05.760 By the way, Piper holds a Reformed view on the Jews.

00:28:11.240 I know he's pre-millennial.

00:28:12.640 He's pre-millennial.

00:28:13.440 But he's historic pre-millennial, not dispensation.

00:28:15.500 Which, by the way, the historic pre-millennial position was that all these great things are

00:28:20.460 going to happen in the millennium, but that is going to be through and for the church.

00:28:25.200 They viewed a thousand-year period after the return of Christ of great blessing and grace

00:28:32.300 manifest God's presence through Christ here on the earth, but that was always in the church,

00:28:38.280 the historic pre-millennial, right from the beginning. So that when we say pre-mill versus

00:28:43.080 post-mill versus ah-mill, the historic pre-mill was not dispensational. And when we say dispensational

00:28:48.480 in this point, what we mean specifically is that the millennium would be a time where God would use

00:28:57.200 the nation state of Israel again. That was never in the picture.

00:29:00.940 a rapture. Like, if you're wondering, what are the main differences between historic

00:29:04.080 premillennialism? Justin Martyr would be one of the first. So if we're looking at a chronological

00:29:08.360 order of church history, historic premillennialism, in my study, that was the first that arrived on

00:29:12.780 the scene. Then second, there's a debate to be had if it was all-male or post-male. Athanasius

00:29:18.580 is pretty early on, and some guys are, well, he's just all-male, and I would say that he's a patron

00:29:23.480 saint of post-male, and there's an argument to be had. But the point is this, historic pre-male

00:29:27.520 did come first and then shortly on the heels we're not talking 500 years we're talking

00:29:31.320 depending how you count arguably between 70 and at max maybe 140 150 years um uh but but still

00:29:39.700 very early on all mail and and post mail so it's historic not dispensationalism but historic pre

00:29:45.420 mail then about within at least within a century give or take uh you have all mail and post mail

00:29:52.300 And then you have about 18, or at this point, it would be about 16 and a half centuries, where those are the only three positions, and then dispensationalism.

00:30:03.260 And the main difference between dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism is exactly what Michael just said, plus the rapture.

00:30:11.220 Historic premillennialism, a secret rapture was absolutely foreign to the entire church until about 150 years ago.

00:30:20.200 160, 170 years ago. No premillennial Christian until Darby and Schofield and these kinds of 0.95

00:30:29.520 things in the mid-19th century, 1800s, no historic premillennial Christian for 1,850 years spoke of

00:30:39.920 a secret rapture. So the two main differences between dispensational, which is a modern novel

00:30:44.980 phenomenon dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism is one dispensationalism

00:30:50.520 that's where you get your left behind series that's where you get a secret rapture historic

00:30:53.980 premillennialism there's not a not a rapture not like that but joel here's and then two is is is

00:30:59.600 within dispensational premillennialism it's this uh the millennium has uh much to do with israel

00:31:05.940 uh the nation state of israel god special god resumes his plan that he put on pause sacrifices

00:31:12.340 the last sacrifices resumed temple rebuilt and then historic premillennialism is there is a

00:31:18.060 literal thousand-year millennial kingdom on earth um but but it's uh the church is in view and not

00:31:23.860 israel according to the flesh so so here's the thing though that is so interesting because i

00:31:27.940 like a lot of us dispensational grew up that way um the crux of the issue for um for the dispense

00:31:37.620 the development of dispensationalism. Darby kind of is the one who came up with the idea of Israel

00:31:45.380 being the tool that God would use in the millennium. That was the first idea, and then he

00:31:52.420 had to kind of go back and search, and then he came up with the idea of the rapture. Now, what's

00:31:57.060 really interesting, this happened, like we said, in the mid-1800s. Second Great Awakening was going

00:32:01.600 on. There was a time of kind of great religious zeal or cultic zeal. This is the time when

00:32:07.960 Joseph Smith had his visions. This is the time when Ellen White had her visions and started

00:32:14.660 Seventh-day Adventism. Do you know the idea of Israel being the tool that God would use in the 0.55

00:32:21.920 millennium instead of the church came from a woman named Margaret MacDonald, who was known to have

00:32:29.080 ecstatic trances in revival meetings, and she had a two-hour ecstatic trance where she was just

00:32:35.740 mumbling things, and one of the things that she said was, God will use Israel in the millennium,

00:32:42.780 not the church. And this was picked up by a preacher named Edward Irving, and he told that

00:32:48.900 to Darby, and that idea stuck in Darby's mind, and it's that idea that made him go back and reread,

00:32:55.260 They then developed the rapture, the dispensations.

00:32:58.560 But the whole idea of Israel being the tool of God in the millennium came from a two-hour ecstatic trance. 0.56

00:33:06.880 Now, that's not to say there have been visions and prophetic visions of the Lord in the past.

00:33:11.560 That's not the argument.

00:33:12.880 The argument is that it's not biblical, in my view.

00:33:15.020 But that's where it came from.

00:33:16.580 That's where the whole idea came from.

00:33:18.020 It was during a time, too, so we think of the Zionism as a modern movement, the advocation of bringing in the dispersed Jews back into the land.

00:33:26.160 That movement was really gaining ground in the late 1800s.

00:33:29.040 You had Theodor Herzl would be his name, and 1890 was the first time they actually convened in Switzerland and began to think about a plot of land in Palestine.

00:33:37.340 And Jews had begun immigrating there until 1948, obviously, when they got the land back. 0.58

00:33:41.520 But the point is that dispensationalism is rising and growing while you also have around it these streams of Zionism where Jews are looking forward to getting some type of land back, staking out a plot here in the Middle East that's theirs. 0.87

00:33:54.180 It's going back to the land that's originally them.

00:33:56.080 It didn't just happen just in this random context. 0.78

00:33:58.660 It was alongside all these other Zionist streams of thought. 0.86

00:34:01.500 Right. 0.79

00:34:01.920 And if you're wondering, well, how did all this take root in particularly in America?

00:34:05.820 because it's not only dispensational premillennialism

00:34:08.820 is a modern idea, recent idea,

00:34:10.760 but it's also uniquely an American idea.

00:34:13.520 American evangelical idea.

00:34:13.940 Right, and the reason why is because,

00:34:15.700 so all the history you gave leading to Darby,

00:34:18.520 and then eventually a guy named Schofield came along

00:34:20.920 and wrote, he didn't just publish a Bible,

00:34:24.180 a King James Bible,

00:34:25.200 but think like the MacArthur Study Bible.

00:34:27.340 It was a study Bible that had all these notes.

00:34:29.460 His study Bible though was as a result

00:34:31.200 of reading Darby's theological system.

00:34:32.960 Exactly, that's my point.

00:34:33.860 So Schofield came and took Darby's system and then wrote all of that in the margins.

00:34:39.820 So he didn't just have a Bible, but he had particularly a study Bible.

00:34:44.260 And so in all the margins, it's giving the alleged interpretations to all these texts,

00:34:50.060 and all his interpretations are Darby's wacky dispensational ideas.

00:34:55.820 And the Schofield Bible became incredibly popular, and it was like a household item.

00:35:00.580 It's not just that every American had a Bible.

00:35:02.140 They had a Schofield Bible.

00:35:03.860 And it took off, and very quickly that became just the dominant view.

00:35:09.500 And still to this day, by God's grace, Reformed theology is making a resurgence.

00:35:14.380 And when I say Reformed theology, I don't just mean Calvinism, you know, like soteriology, God's sovereignty and salvation.

00:35:20.820 But I mean actual Reformed theology is making a resurgence.

00:35:24.620 But up until very recently, like in the last 20 years, the dominant view, and still to this day, even with a Reformed covenant theology resurgence,

00:35:33.060 even right now this minute the dominant view within evangelical christianity in america

00:35:38.320 is dispensational premillennialism that is the dominant view we are the minority hands down we

00:35:43.440 are the minority absolutely so the average christian today literally believes if if uh if

00:35:48.060 our nation gives billions of dollars to the nation state of israel we will be uh we will

00:35:53.000 incur a spiritual um and even physical financial blessing from god there are there is if this is

00:36:01.280 sad but but statistically true if you're if your grandmother is still alive and she's a christian

00:36:06.320 um there's probably about a 90 chance um that that she uh believes that america um and its

00:36:14.120 prosperity its financial blessing um over over the decades uh is uh in large part due to america's

00:36:21.980 political alliance um and funding financial funding from taxpayer dollars to the nation

00:36:27.820 state of israel that is that is the dominant view it's just it's in the air like when if you go to

00:36:33.680 a christian and say um you know are you dispensationalist for most christians it would

00:36:39.760 be like two fish swimming in the water um and one of them says hey the water sure is nice today and

00:36:44.860 the other fish says what's water right yeah right like it's just assumed it's just yeah christians

00:36:49.980 love the nation state of israel christians uh should should uh write checks to israel you know

00:36:55.440 and support every, you know, vote for every politician who's pro-Israel and wants to send

00:37:00.960 tax dollars to Israel. And that's just, that is just the view. That's just the view. And it has

00:37:06.380 been for a very long time. And when I say a very long time, I mean 150 years and in America,

00:37:12.200 especially the last 75, 80 years. But Joel, what's interesting about that, to get back to

00:37:15.220 the Klavan clip, is he mentioned the priest who baptized him. And I can't think of a single

00:37:21.020 denomination that has the officer of a priest that is dispensational the catholic church is

00:37:25.820 not dispensational right the anglican are they priests in the anglican church yeah yeah they're

00:37:31.320 not they're not dispensational and so it's it's interesting to me is anglican that he is in a

00:37:38.340 tradition that is not dispensational but he's assuming that the correct perspective on israel

00:37:44.420 and on the jews is the dispensational position right and i think a big part of that is because

00:37:48.920 ethnically speaking right like as he said in the clip he's jewish right and this is something that

00:37:54.560 i've noticed um that that is it it really is um it grieves me uh but i i know uh uh plenty i've

00:38:03.240 had plenty pastorally plenty of discussions with christians men who i really believe are christians

00:38:08.760 so so uh they they would they would have the same problems i have with the second half of

00:38:13.660 clavin's clip the universalism they they would say yeah that clavin is in left field you know

00:38:18.500 like that's absolutely wrong they would say no there's no way to the father but through

00:38:21.660 jesus christ his son but um they are so they are christians uh they have a biblical confession of

00:38:28.100 christian faith uh but they are also ethnically jewish and uh and that is still a really big deal

00:38:34.400 for them and so they would say you know they would say i am um i'm a jewish christian you know

00:38:40.380 whereas i like i never go around saying i'm an anglo christian right you know like but they would

00:38:45.820 say i'm a jewish christian or a messianic uh jew or you know or and and i do i i think that that

00:38:51.600 is a dispensational hangover i think that that comes from dispensation what do you mean you're

00:38:56.240 a jewish christian no no you just pick a lane i mean you're just you're a christian the the the

00:39:02.380 early commentators on the book of acts referred to judeo-christians and what they meant was jews

00:39:07.780 who had converted to christianity yes and they continued to call them essentially jewish christians

00:39:12.520 um but when it when it comes to really i understand saying i'm a chinese american i still

00:39:19.760 um eat chinese food you know i i can't get away from the fact that that's the food my mom cooked

00:39:24.940 for me right that's but to bring it into your religion to me is is a different right that's

00:39:30.280 so the chinese american is different because you're talking about two nations right so i am

00:39:35.820 uh like uh from china is my uh descent that's my heritage that's where i'm from um but my but but

00:39:42.780 where do i currently reside and where's my citizenship now lie uh america right so i'm a

00:39:47.920 chinese american right but we're talking about two nations but but over here we're talking about

00:39:52.260 nationhood or ethnicity mixed with um mixed with faith right i'm a you know a jewish christian

00:40:02.020 right if some if somebody was born in the nation state of israel and then moved over here and

00:40:06.300 became a citizen of the united states and say i'm a jewish american fine i i get that right i get i

00:40:12.140 get what you're saying uh yeah you know even then i prefer just i'm an american an american with

00:40:17.560 jewish yeah exactly right because i think wherever you are that's where your allegiance should lie

00:40:22.120 and if your allegiance doesn't lie with america and and you're you know the place that you're

00:40:26.300 from is so wonderful then then feel free to go back that's you know that's just briefly too on

00:40:30.440 the nation state of israel i don't think we'll get back to it but a lot of dispensationalists

00:40:34.300 i they have a lot of love for israel you have to understand that the nation state of israel 0.53

00:40:38.880 is not this conservative moral outlier in the middle east so the gayest city in the world

00:40:44.020 is tel aviv when you say yes you mean i mean 200 000 coming to the biggest pride parade 0.52

00:40:50.800 in the world in tel aviv you don't like the vaccine israel had the highest vaccination rate

00:40:56.180 of any nation. It was like, you have to 0.92

00:40:58.460 have this. We are on lockdown. You need to get

00:41:00.440 this vaccine. Israel Defense Force,

00:41:02.580 the IDF, it's very well known that 0.98

00:41:04.480 when they're fighting against Muslims, they'll blast 0.98

00:41:06.580 pornography across their airwaves 1.00

00:41:08.340 to demoralize those 0.98

00:41:10.100 fighters. We saw a clip a couple months ago

00:41:12.500 of Orthodox Jews spitting 0.88

00:41:14.280 on Christians as they walk through Jerusalem.

00:41:16.560 So the point is not that Israel is the only

00:41:18.320 nation in the world that's ever had pride

00:41:20.260 parades, because Lord knows we have many of them 1.00

00:41:22.340 are working to repent and get rid of those.

00:41:23.820 not the first nation to use immoral tactics in war but but i would never i think of canada for

00:41:29.460 instance and the regime going on there i would never advocate sending billions of dollars to

00:41:33.380 canada i would never profess their love i would never have the canadian flag in my church they

00:41:38.700 hate me they despise me and i don't despise or have a very specific hate for them but i would

00:41:44.640 say again you know we're not saying every single uh canadian citizen exactly because because i'm

00:41:49.860 sure that there's a great deal then we're like i wish that i lived in america yeah but we're but

00:41:54.560 we're saying canada as a nation yes represented by their elected officials exactly hates the regime

00:42:00.760 the zeitgeist generally speaking there's an animosity especially towards a conservative

00:42:04.880 texas dwelling right and so the point is for the dispensationalist has this love for israel 0.93

00:42:08.780 they're a gay apostate um democratic i don't really know so much they're not your your homeboy 0.95

00:42:17.260 they're not this conservative bastion 0.99

00:42:18.740 hanging out there in the Middle East.

00:42:20.240 So don't think of them that way, 0.99

00:42:21.460 and it's perfectly permissible.

00:42:23.660 Say, yeah, we don't need to support them.

00:42:25.980 We don't need to send them billions of dollars.

00:42:27.940 They wouldn't come to our aid.

00:42:29.160 If we got attacked by Russia tomorrow, 0.94

00:42:30.380 I don't think Israel would be the first one to say, 0.92

00:42:32.680 we're on our way.

00:42:35.060 So just something I had to throw out there.

00:42:36.140 So three main positions within...

00:42:38.420 We've kind of hit the first one.

00:42:39.620 What?

00:42:40.020 We've kind of hit the first one.

00:42:41.340 So the three main positions that are all orthodox,

00:42:44.080 again, hear me, listener,

00:42:45.140 this does not mean that they're all true.

00:42:47.260 okay? Because these positions contradict one another. So they're not all true. Only one of

00:42:52.580 them could be right. None of them could be right. They could all be wrong, but they all can't be

00:42:55.900 true. But what I'm saying when I say they're all orthodox is I mean that at least two of these

00:43:01.140 positions are wrong, if not all three of them, but at least two of these positions are wrong,

00:43:05.420 but they are not so wrong that it is heresy, right? And notice, I will show much more charity

00:43:14.380 than jenna ellis did um i'm going to include on this list so the first one that we've been talking

00:43:18.740 about would be dispensationalism um dispensation i believe you guys if you've been following this

00:43:23.520 channel for a while you know i'm not a big fan okay i'll just leave it there to say the least

00:43:27.980 not a big fan i think um incalculable harm uh to the christian church and to our nation because

00:43:35.160 i think there are massive political ramifications to dispensationalism which by the way when we say

00:43:40.700 christian nationalism and people get all up in arms this country is religiously national right

00:43:47.540 we vote according to religious principles just look at how we find israel right and the politicians

00:43:53.020 who come out vocally for it right it's a religious conviction absolutely so i think dispensationalism

00:43:59.820 has done a ton of harm okay in the same way that i think continuationism especially this uh not all

00:44:06.600 continuationists, but certain strands of continuationism that place a major emphasis

00:44:11.700 on new revelation. New Testament prophecy being exercised by individuals in the church today

00:44:17.700 getting extra-biblical new revelation. Yeah, I think new revelation, extra-biblical revelation,

00:44:24.540 it's not just that it's wrong, but it does harm. Bad ideas have consequences. Bad theology has

00:44:31.500 consequences. We're not just ethereal creatures floating around in a spiritual plane.

00:44:36.600 your views and your theology,

00:44:39.860 what you believe about God and about the universe

00:44:42.020 and your fellow man and the world

00:44:43.480 and the way that it should function,

00:44:44.920 of course that has an implication.

00:44:46.400 To think anything else is, again, 0.76

00:44:48.180 another example of bad theology known as pietism, right? 0.91

00:44:51.520 Which has bad implications, you know? 0.70

00:44:53.680 And so my point is good theology has good fruit

00:44:56.820 on the ground, not just good fruit

00:44:59.060 when you're dead in heaven somewhere else,

00:45:01.080 but good fruit here and now.

00:45:02.740 Bad theology consequently has bad fruit here and now.

00:45:06.180 So I think dispensationalism has some really bad fruit.

00:45:09.000 All that being said, still, I'm categorizing dispensationalism in general, not every wacky

00:45:16.280 strain of it, but in general, underneath the banner of orthodoxy.

00:45:20.420 I think it's wrong, but I'm not saying that it's heresy.

00:45:23.500 Jenna Ellis did not do that courtesy.

00:45:25.940 She didn't say, hey, I think covenant theology is wrong, but it is orthodox.

00:45:31.140 No, she said covenant theology is replacement theology, and it is a heresy.

00:45:36.340 She said, just flat out, what she's saying is R.C. Sproul, he wasn't wrong on this particular

00:45:43.680 secondary theological issue.

00:45:45.840 R.C. Sproul spent 50 years publicly teaching heresy.

00:45:51.500 Not a good look.

00:45:52.660 Someone needs to take away her Twitter.

00:45:54.480 So, you know, but here's the point.

00:45:56.600 Dispensationalism, disagree with it, think there's harmful effects, but that is one of

00:46:00.180 the three positions that is orthodox.

00:46:01.920 You could believe, in other words, you could believe that there is a secret rapture of the church in our future and that there is going to be a literal thousand-year millennial reign of Christ reigning on earth where he's going to do some unique things with Israel, fulfill certain land promises, the rebuilding of the third temple, resuming animal sacrifices.

00:46:21.700 Not all dispensationalists would agree on that, by the way.

00:46:23.780 Some would be on different sizes.

00:46:25.620 yes, the animal sacrifices will resume, but as a, some guys, they would say they'll resume,

00:46:30.060 but as a memorial, not to supplement. It's not to say that Christ's sacrifice as the Lamb of God

00:46:35.360 is insufficient and we need to make it up by, you know, it's Christ's sacrifice plus, you know,

00:46:40.820 a few more bulls, you know, on the Third Temple Mount. No, it's, they would say it's a memorial

00:46:45.260 looking back. It's reminiscent, simply pointing back to the finished, sufficient, perfect sacrifice

00:46:50.920 of Jesus that's already happened, you know, to be fair to the dispensationalists. And then some

00:46:55.220 dispensationalists would say there aren't going to be animal sacrifices, but the point is,

00:46:58.960 in general, dispensationalists would say secret rapture of the church,

00:47:03.640 that's going to be before seven-year tribulation, or in the middle of that tribulation, or at the

00:47:08.280 end of it, and then a thousand-year physical reign of Christ on earth, where he resumes,

00:47:13.740 all of a sudden he pushed pause in AD 70, and we've been on pause, because Israel rejected

00:47:20.000 their Messiah. We've been on pause for about 1,950 years, but then he'll push play again

00:47:26.440 and pick back up the narrative that he was doing with Israel and this B narrative that he's been

00:47:31.600 doing in the intermittent period for 19 and a half centuries with the church. That'll be done.

00:47:36.800 The church is raptured up, and then he'll resume for a thousand more years with Israel, where he'll 0.66

00:47:40.460 fulfill both land promises and spiritual promises of a revival among Israel. That's dispensationalism. 0.78

00:47:45.940 Again, I think it's bad theology.

00:47:47.840 I think bad theology has consequences.

00:47:50.000 It doesn't just stay in the ivory tower,

00:47:51.480 but it actually has negative effects, political effects.

00:47:54.820 I think it's hurt America.

00:47:56.120 I think it's hurt churches, all that,

00:47:57.760 but it is not a heresy.

00:47:59.860 It still falls under the banner of orthodoxy.

00:48:02.000 I'm not prepared this afternoon

00:48:03.920 to say that John MacArthur is a heretic.

00:48:06.260 I'm just not prepared to say that.

00:48:07.880 I think he's wrong, and I really think he's wrong,

00:48:10.700 but I don't think that he's a heretic.

00:48:13.000 All right, so that's number one, dispensationalism.

00:48:14.980 Number two, soft supersessionism. Soft supersessionism, in a nutshell, dispensationalism, this is how you break it down, dispensationalism would say, yes, that there are future land promises for Israel, ethnic Israel, the nation state of Israel, and yes, there's a future revival.

00:48:30.240 So future land promises for Israel and future revival.

00:48:35.560 So both physical and spiritual.

00:48:38.060 Physical future promises for Israel still in their future, yet to be fulfilled, and future

00:48:43.300 spiritual promises to be fulfilled for Israel, namely a mass revival among Jewish people

00:48:50.320 according to the flesh that they would come to Christ.

00:48:52.620 That's dispensationalism.

00:48:53.920 Future land, future revival, future physical and future...

00:48:57.520 And who is the current people of God?

00:48:58.700 Physical, right.

00:48:59.580 Right, and that they are...

00:49:01.240 They still are God's chosen people.

00:49:03.260 Right, that they're still God's chosen people.

00:49:04.580 He's not done.

00:49:05.700 And he's gonna push play again,

00:49:07.560 even though it's been on pause for 19 and a half centuries.

00:49:10.560 Soft supersessionism would say no to future land promises.

00:49:14.900 They say all that has been fulfilled,

00:49:16.760 but yes to future revival.

00:49:20.540 So no on the physical promises,

00:49:22.660 but yes on the future spiritual promises.

00:49:24.840 And when we say revival, we mean to Christ.

00:49:27.560 To Christ, yes.

00:49:28.520 Romans 11. 1.00

00:49:29.580 Not that they would become better with Judaism. 1.00

00:49:32.760 Right. 0.95

00:49:32.880 No, they would forsake Talmudic Judaism 0.53

00:49:35.360 and that they would turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. 0.55

00:49:38.100 Or Old Testament Judaism. 0.74

00:49:38.680 Yes, they're turning to Christ. 0.98

00:49:39.840 And that's a good point to make also. 0.55

00:49:41.080 Talmudic Judaism, modern Judaism is not synonymous.

00:49:45.760 It's not just that it's the Old Testament minus the New. 0.81

00:49:48.740 Right.

00:49:49.100 No, it is a vast perversion of the Old Testament.

00:49:53.720 Yeah. 0.99

00:49:53.820 So Judaism, according to the Old Testament,

00:49:56.020 under Moses was good and fulfilled in Christ. At the coming of Christ, at his time, they already,

00:50:04.440 the religious rulers of the day, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the lawyers and religious 0.97

00:50:08.960 rulers, they were already had twisted and perverted Judaism as given to Moses. So far that 0.97

00:50:16.120 Jesus again and again is saying, you have heard it is said, but I tell you. And when he says,

00:50:22.080 I tell you, he's not saying Moses said this, but I tell you that. No, he's saying Moses said this,

00:50:26.900 and this is what Moses was right, and this is what that means. And what you've been said is

00:50:32.080 a perversion of Moses. It's not that Jesus is coming and saying, Moses is wrong, and I'm right.

00:50:39.200 No, Jesus is coming, and he's going back to Moses and saying, Moses has been twisted by the Pharisees

00:50:44.720 and the Sadducees. Moses has been perverted, and I'm coming to come back and tell you this is

00:50:50.540 what moses really said and here's its highest fulfillment which finds its its highest

00:50:55.440 fulfillment in me right in christ um so in other words uh by the time in the first century by the

00:51:01.280 time that jesus came uh in his earthly ministry judaism had already derailed it had already been

00:51:08.280 massively perverted and here's the deal um if the pharisees in the first century who jesus said

00:51:15.480 you've perverted religion you've perverted true religion that was given to moses this isn't

00:51:20.940 judaism this is a perverted uh judaism if the pharisees in the first century in jesus day who 0.95

00:51:26.780 perverted judaism saw talmudic judaism in this day right they would be uh shocked they would say 0.96

00:51:32.840 all right now we were all for twisting scripture but guys this is way too far this is even we

00:51:38.600 wouldn't do this yeah right and so um that so it's important to know it's talmudic judaism

00:51:43.900 modern judaism today is not old testament they're just missing the new right no it's old testament

00:51:48.900 that was perverted and and greatly perverted by the time jesus came and then for 2 000 years has 0.96

00:51:54.640 been far more perverted and that's what you have with modern judaism today so again dispensationalism 0.87

00:52:00.180 is saying there are still future physical promises for israel and spiritual promises for israel and

00:52:06.380 the spiritual promise being a revival not a revival of judaism but a forsaking of talmudic

00:52:11.120 judaism and a revive a christian revival where uh jews according to the flesh uh embrace their 0.85

00:52:17.040 messiah and come to christ come to christian faith all right that's dispensationalism soft

00:52:21.680 supersessionism would say no to the land the physical promises but yes to the future spiritual

00:52:27.200 promises the christian revival so there is a future christian revival uh for israel um according

00:52:33.320 to the flesh uh but there's not a future land promise in other words um a covenant theologian

00:52:38.880 like R.C. Sproul, since I've already used him as an example, who would be a soft

00:52:42.400 supersessionist. R.C. Sproul, if he were here, he would say, yeah, if the nation state of Israel

00:52:48.540 ended tomorrow, I wouldn't lose any sleep. It would not mess with my theology. It would not

00:52:54.680 have some big upheaval. I would still believe that there are ethnic Jews, according to the

00:53:01.240 flesh, now dispersed and scattered as they have been in previous times, and that for them, there

00:53:06.480 is still, in their future, a mass spiritual revival where many of them, even the majority

00:53:12.900 of them, will bow the knee to Christ and come to him in saving faith.

00:53:16.300 That's what Sproul would say.

00:53:17.740 But he would say, but none of that is dependent on a third temple being built.

00:53:23.060 None of that is dependent on Israel even maintaining its nation state and the land that it currently

00:53:28.720 resides in.

00:53:29.540 None of that is, all the physical stuff and political stuff is not a prerequisite.

00:53:36.480 for the spiritual revival.

00:53:38.880 And so he would say spiritual revival for Israel

00:53:41.220 in our future, Israel, according to the flesh,

00:53:44.000 being saved and coming to Christ, yes. 0.94

00:53:46.460 The land stuff, no, right, no.

00:53:50.360 And so that's a soft supersessionist view,

00:53:52.960 which is thoroughly orthodox.

00:53:54.220 And then a full supersessionism,

00:53:56.160 this is the view that many Christians are not aware of,

00:53:58.620 but you should be because it is a viable orthodox view.

00:54:02.000 I'm not saying you have to hold it,

00:54:03.360 But it would be one of these three main views that is absolutely orthodox.

00:54:09.660 The full supersessionism would say no to future land promises and no to a future revival,

00:54:15.560 a future spiritual promise, and not, just like with the land, not because God changed

00:54:20.520 his mind, not because God broke his promise, but because it's already been fulfilled.

00:54:24.580 God promised land, and he granted it, and then Israel lost it.

00:54:28.400 But read the end of Joshua.

00:54:30.200 all the land promised to israel through moses god did it he did it and then israel got spewed out

00:54:37.440 of the land um and then same with uh this uh future spiritual revival the full supersessionism

00:54:43.360 view what they would say is that uh when paul's writing romans 11 that's the main text so romans

00:54:49.020 11 says uh that israel that a partial hardening has come over israel uh and that they have been

00:54:55.200 cut off because of the rejection of the messiah they've been cut off and paul even says it i will 0.76

00:54:59.400 I'm going to be the apostle to the Gentiles because I keep going to the Jews. They keep 1.00

00:55:03.280 rejecting me. They're the ones who are persecuting me by and large. And yes, they use the Romans to

00:55:08.580 do it because they have to, because they're under Roman rule. So they legally do not have

00:55:13.120 the political power. The Jews couldn't kill someone, right? That's why they went to Rome 0.95

00:55:18.800 to have Pilate do it. It was not lawful for them to crucify Jesus. But Pilate makes it very clear.

00:55:26.560 he now he folds like a cheap suit and and he is morally responsible for that he tries to wash his

00:55:32.200 hands but but in the uh ultimate um eternal sense pilot did not wipe that guilt off of his hands

00:55:38.840 pilot is guilty for the choice that he made pilot's own wife is tormented by visions and saying please

00:55:44.160 pilot don't kill this guy don't do it absolve yourself but pilot's up for re-election he's 0.77

00:55:49.800 your typical politician uh the jews in his province you know they have they have some clout it's 0.85

00:55:54.840 Passover. The pensions are high. He doesn't want to upset them, and so he folds. But notice, 1.00

00:55:59.220 here's the deal. The Jews are the ones who want to kill Jesus. Pilate doesn't. The Romans don't 1.00

00:56:04.360 want to kill Jesus in this instance. The Jews want to kill him, but the Jews can't because the 1.00

00:56:11.560 Jews are not a sovereign state. They're a province underneath the empire of Rome, and so they have 1.00

00:56:17.540 to have uh the the roman uh approval the the romans are the ones who drive the nails through 0.60

00:56:24.300 jesus hands the romans are the ones who drive the nails through his feet and and hoist him up on the

00:56:29.940 cross so it is true to say the romans in the physical literal sense killed jesus um but they 0.97

00:56:35.340 would not have killed jesus if it was not for the jews uh screaming crucify him and hold on to that 0.63

00:56:42.380 we're going to get to it later it matters right matter of biblical truth right and and they even 0.99

00:56:46.400 say, Pilate says, let my hands be clean, and the Jews say, well, let his blood be on us and our

00:56:53.320 children, us and our children. They say, we're happy, happy to take this guilt. And then later

00:56:59.280 on in Acts chapter 2 in Pentecost, Peter stands up and says, to the Jews, that's the context,

00:57:04.600 it's in Jerusalem, and this chapter starts with him saying, the chapter starts, he stands up to

00:57:10.500 all the men and leaders in israel and he says this jesus whom you killed yeah whom you crucified

00:57:18.260 um and it's not just a generic i know we would say well all humanity killed jesus yes but but

00:57:23.560 we can speak in many different senses here right so um in the spiritual sense eternal sense and

00:57:29.600 ultimate because this is the highest and truest sense we all killed jesus yeah i killed jesus

00:57:34.620 my sin it was my sin that nailed him there yeah absolutely that i am able to look to the cross

00:57:41.320 and say um i did that my sin uh killed jesus and so the in the highest ultimate sense all of

00:57:49.300 humanity by our sin killed jesus because jesus this is true he says no man takes my life from me

00:57:55.560 but i freely lay it down and why did he lay it down he laid it down um in obedience to his father

00:58:01.700 and to ransom for himself a sinful people

00:58:04.980 from every tribe, tongue, and nation

00:58:06.940 who had committed cosmic treason and sinned against him.

00:58:10.140 Not just the Jews, but everyone.

00:58:11.320 So in one sense, in the highest sense, 0.95

00:58:13.060 in the spiritual and eternal sense, we all killed Jesus.

00:58:15.860 Well, you know what?

00:58:16.520 Actually, in the highest sense, Jesus gave his life.

00:58:19.320 No one kills Jesus, okay?

00:58:20.780 He lays it down.

00:58:22.000 And then in a salvific sense, soteriology sense,

00:58:26.680 it was necessary that Jesus died because of all people,

00:58:29.660 not just one people group, all people,

00:58:31.340 because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

00:58:33.880 And then in a literal physical sense,

00:58:36.200 who actually put the nails in his hands and feet? 0.97

00:58:38.500 The Romans did. 0.57

00:58:40.200 But in the historic and social political sense,

00:58:46.320 who is saying, is it just everybody

00:58:49.860 from all over the known world?

00:58:51.720 No, it is one particular group of people who want him dead. 1.00

00:58:54.500 And that is the Jews. 1.00

00:58:56.400 And that's perfectly biblical to say. 0.80

00:58:59.040 Multiple layers there.

00:59:00.060 All those statements are true statements.

00:59:01.880 Those statements are different statements, but that's not relativism because they're

00:59:05.960 not contradicting statements.

00:59:07.480 They're all true.

00:59:08.720 Like when Paul talks about Hagar and Sarah, he says, this can also be understood allegorically.

00:59:14.920 Right.

00:59:15.200 So he's not saying the allegory against the literal historic hermeneutic.

00:59:21.000 He's saying alongside, in addition to, so understand it historically, literally, and

00:59:26.920 allegorically, right?

00:59:28.040 So in the higher level, we all kill Jesus by our sin.

00:59:30.940 In the highest level, nobody kills Jesus.

00:59:33.700 He lays his life down.

00:59:35.060 No one takes his life. 0.85

00:59:36.100 But at a lower level, in the physical, literal sense, the Romans drove the nails through

00:59:40.560 his hands and feet. 0.86

00:59:41.680 And in the political, historical, social sense, it was the Jews shouting, crucify him. 0.86

00:59:48.120 So all that being said, the point is Romans 11, get back almost done, Romans 11, that's 0.68

00:59:56.760 where we find Paul says Israel, because of the rejection of the Messiah, and Paul now has found 0.76

01:00:03.280 that it is God's will for him to be an apostle to the Gentiles, because the Jews have rejected

01:00:07.720 his apostolic ministry, just as they rejected Christ. And Paul is now saying that Israel, 0.85

01:00:12.760 according to the flesh, the state, the nation of Israel, has been cut off for a time,

01:00:18.520 and that the partial hardening has, you know, they've been partially blinded and partially 0.91

01:00:23.480 hardened their hearts so that he's going to the Gentiles. The Gentiles are flooding in. Gentiles 0.53

01:00:28.760 are hearing the gospel preaching of Paul the apostle and being saved by the thousands. They're

01:00:33.500 flowing in. All over the known world. All over the known world. But the Jews, doesn't mean every

01:00:38.740 single one of them, partial hardening, meaning an individual Jewish person, there were some

01:00:43.660 individuals who were saved under Paul's preaching. But by and large, in a general sense, Israel

01:00:50.120 hardened gentiles being drawn but paul says uh the gentiles have been grafted in israel has been cut

01:00:57.160 off so the gentiles might be grafted in but eventually israel will be grafted back in also

01:01:02.340 well this this full supersessionism view is not saying and romans 11 uh god changed his mind and

01:01:09.000 god failed and he didn't do it no full supersessionism is the view uh that god did

01:01:14.060 fulfill this romans 11 promise of a spiritual not land promises physical promises but a spiritual

01:01:19.560 revival salvation promise for israel according to the flesh aka a bunch of of physical jewish

01:01:26.900 people came to christ and repented and got saved the full supersessionist view is saying that

01:01:32.400 that's not a promise that god denied or failed to keep but that it was fulfilled in paul's at the

01:01:37.400 future in the future of paul at the time of his writing of romans 11 but in our past because it's

01:01:43.640 been 2,000 years. So when Paul was writing the book of Romans, this was before AD 70. And there

01:01:50.480 are guys like James B. Jordan would be one example, but there are guys who hold this view

01:01:55.380 that Paul writes this, that Israel will be saved, and that this is not something still hanging over

01:02:02.860 in our future 2,000 years later, but that this is something that actually through Paul's ministry,

01:02:08.320 that his brothers according to the flesh, his kinsmen according to the flesh, fellow Israelites,

01:02:13.020 actually were roused to a divine godly sense of jealousy because they saw all of these covenant 0.95

01:02:20.060 promises that were historically theirs all of a sudden being received by Gentiles and Samaritans

01:02:27.760 and all these other people from Ethiopians and all these other people are being blessed and God 0.78

01:02:32.960 is lavishing his promises upon them and Israel is being further and further judged and all this

01:02:39.080 leads up to Titus sacking Rome and Jerusalem and the fall of Jerusalem, the fall of the temple.

01:02:46.500 And so the view of full supersessionism is that through the ministry of the Apostle Paul and the

01:02:52.540 other apostles, that Israel actually was roused to jealousy and that they were progressively and

01:02:59.220 then especially kind of a catalyst ramping up in AD 70 to the judgment that fell upon Jerusalem

01:03:07.300 and the destruction of the temple and the destruction of the city, that people, the

01:03:12.420 Jewish people, they saw this and they remembered because they were there. They remember the words

01:03:18.680 of Jesus and all of that discourse in Matthew 24, where Jesus says, this generation will not

01:03:24.320 pass away until all these things come to pass. And what are some of the things that he just said

01:03:28.840 would happen? Not one stone left on another of the temple, that the temple would be destroyed.

01:03:33.540 And then these people, they shout, crucify him.

01:03:38.120 And so then Jesus dies.

01:03:39.400 He's crucified.

01:03:41.100 And then exactly like he said, now AD 70, within 40 years, which is one generation in 0.59

01:03:47.780 Jewish terminology, that's one generation, exactly what Jesus said.

01:03:51.920 It's now been, there's still many people who are very elderly now.

01:03:55.900 They're old, but they're still alive.

01:03:57.120 They remember what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

01:04:00.180 and they just saw the temple exactly like jesus prophesied uh destroyed not one stone left on

01:04:07.260 another they were there that day shouting in the crowd crucify him and they come to their senses

01:04:13.020 uh with the the uh the move of the holy spirit and they realize we crucified the messiah he was right

01:04:20.860 he wasn't a false prophet that was him lord forgive me and they come to saving faith and

01:04:26.840 that's Romans 11. Romans 11 was written before AD 70. So when Paul writes, this will happen in the

01:04:32.440 future, AD 70 was in the future for Paul writing Romans 11. That would be the full supercessionist

01:04:39.540 view. So again, last little recap. Dispensationalism, they would say there's still

01:04:44.320 future land promises and future spiritual promises for Israel. Soft supercessionism would say no

01:04:50.300 future land promises, but there is a future revival, future spiritual promises. Full supercessionism

01:04:55.840 would say no future land promises and no future revival. There was a future revival at the time

01:05:02.220 of the writing of Romans 11, but not in our future, 2,000 years now removed. And not because

01:05:08.540 God changed his mind or God failed to keep that promise, he actually fulfilled it. And the majority

01:05:13.740 of Israel, according to the flesh, actually did come to saving faith in Jesus Christ

01:05:18.820 through the ministry of the latter years of this interim period between Christ, his death,

01:05:25.380 resurrection and ascension and the fall of jerusalem in 80 70 and then many who were not yet

01:05:30.780 converted in 80 70 when this judgment does come a physical judgment comes upon jerusalem they see it

01:05:36.680 as a fulfillment of christ's own words his own prophecies in the olivet discourse they repent

01:05:41.940 of their sins and they come to saving faith in jesus and now it's done to malachi 3 and 4

01:05:47.840 the prophecy was i'm going to visit you nearby for judgment but to the one who fears my name

01:05:53.420 the son of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. So God comes to the temple and

01:05:57.980 visits judgment upon the Jewish people. But to those who fear the name of Christ, he says,

01:06:02.320 you're going to go out like calves skipping from the stall. So Romans chapter 11 fulfilled there

01:06:06.120 and Malachi 3 and 4, the end of the Old Testament, it closes with the expectation,

01:06:11.000 John the Baptist is coming, and then I'm going to visit you for judgment. But to those of you 0.92

01:06:15.340 who fear my name, the son, S-U-N, of righteousness will rise and you're going to go out and be free.

01:06:20.560 The Old Testament, too, is building up to covenant judgment, but for those who fear the name of God, freedom and salvation.

01:06:28.440 Amen.

01:06:29.380 Amen.

01:06:29.920 So the point is, none of those views are heresy, and none of them are anti-Semitic.

01:06:36.380 They're not—well, okay, before you tie the knot with that anti-Semitic thing, I just want to stress the idea that ethnic Israel is not God's chosen people currently is the predominant view in church history.

01:06:50.520 I think a lot of people who grew up in American churches just don't know that.

01:06:54.780 I did not know that, right?

01:06:56.280 The reformers, the early church fathers, I mean, you don't find it anywhere in church history.

01:07:03.660 And so like you're fond of saying, Joel, maybe, maybe they were all wrong that whole time

01:07:09.720 and Darby finally got it right, or maybe they were right.

01:07:15.620 Maybe they were onto something, and we have just missed something in our American modern

01:07:21.740 Christianity.

01:07:22.680 And Christians have to reckon with church history.

01:07:25.920 I'm not saying you have to be covenantal or hold a reformed position, but you have to

01:07:32.280 reckon with the fact that the giants of the faith, the titans of the faith, viewed Israel

01:07:38.560 and the church in this way.

01:07:40.620 Calvin, Knox, you have them here in your article, Zwingli, John Gill.

01:07:43.920 I mean, it goes all the way back.

01:07:45.280 he goes all the way back yeah they all believe this right so uh what clavin says in that clip

01:07:51.520 nathan let's back it up and just show the first half one more time and then we'll land we'll land

01:07:57.040 the plane on this first point and then we'll tackle the universalism can you go ahead

01:08:02.580 you know when i did this by the way the priest who baptized me said you know christians won't

01:08:08.540 accept you they'll you'll still be a jew and i said well i am that that's my race i'm a jew i'm

01:08:12.060 proud of my race. It's a great race. It's done many, many great things, including write the

01:08:16.020 Bible. And, you know, I am a Jew, but that hasn't happened at all. Christians have welcomed me with

01:08:20.880 open arms, except this Christ the King anti-Semitic crowd. Christ is the King, and one day every knee

01:08:29.340 will bow and recognize it because he's not just my King, he's King of the universe. But when you

01:08:33.940 use that phrase to mean that God has abandoned his chosen people, the Jews, through whom he came 0.86

01:08:41.280 into this world incarnate and that he's broken his promises his covenant with the jews you are

01:08:47.640 quoting scripture like satan does in the bible you are quoting scripture to your purposes

01:08:53.460 and that to me is specifically wicked you know stop it when you yeah he andrew clavin

01:09:02.380 exactly not essentially i want to say essentially but it's not essentially he exactly explicitly

01:09:09.160 just condemned covenant theology, the reigning orthodox position for 2,000 years of church

01:09:17.200 history of the Christian church. He condemned it as twisting scripture like Satan in the

01:09:23.720 wilderness to tempt Jesus. So satanic, wicked, and anti-Semitic. Again, that's my whole point 0.87

01:09:30.140 on all this. Andrew Clavin doesn't say Christ the King crowd. He's saying Christ is King and

01:09:36.760 therefore death to israel right no right yeah that's anti-semitic of course that is right they're

01:09:44.080 not he doesn't say uh people are saying christ is king with their memes on twitter and then and

01:09:50.160 then saying you know uh uh commit genocide of israel you know and but no no he literally says

01:09:56.520 clavin literally says in that clip um this christ the king crowd this anti-semitic crowd that's

01:10:02.540 being satanic, twisting scripture like Satan did in the wilderness, and wicked. So this

01:10:06.800 anti-Semitic, satanic, wicked, Christ the King crowd is doing what? What's your example? 0.95

01:10:14.220 Saying that God has broken his covenant with the nation state of Israel. That is not anti-Semitism.

01:10:23.500 that is not wicked and that is not satanic that is um that is a perfectly orthodox position and

01:10:33.480 i'm just trying to be charitable here in in throwing a bone to the dispensationalists you

01:10:38.780 know and and saying you are brothers in christ i think you're terribly wrong but brothers in christ

01:10:43.040 but it's not just the orthodox position it is the reigning supreme position yeah throughout church

01:10:50.000 history for 1850 years is covenant theology and it's not and look this is the the subtle

01:10:58.960 and it's it's deceptive and and and to be as charitable as possible maybe it's just

01:11:05.200 theological ignorance but he says broken and see that's what dispensationalists do

01:11:10.420 that that's what they do all the time you believe god broke his promises right no no nobody said

01:11:15.640 Now he's saying we are impugning God with faithlessness.

01:11:20.680 With faithlessness to his covenant.

01:11:22.360 Exactly.

01:11:23.040 That we're indicting God, accusing God of breaking his promises, breaking his covenant,

01:11:27.780 failing to keep it.

01:11:28.980 God couldn't keep his covenant or wouldn't keep his covenant.

01:11:32.120 No, no, no.

01:11:32.580 That is not covenant theology.

01:11:34.540 That is not the position.

01:11:36.240 The position, and again, it is the dominant supreme position throughout 2,000 years of

01:11:42.460 church history until very recently.

01:11:44.240 the position is not that god broke his promises the position is that god fulfilled his promises

01:11:49.640 and that these promises are no longer in our future they were they were future promises at

01:11:56.160 the timing of the writing of the new testament but they're not still future promises in 2024

01:12:02.340 right that god promised that he would bring his people into a land flowing with milk and honey 0.76

01:12:08.060 and he did it he didn't break his promise he fulfilled it and then israel by their faithlessness

01:12:14.260 lost it and god also promised that israel through the apostle paul he promised in romans 11 this is

01:12:22.540 an apostolic prophecy that he will save israel according to the flesh there will be a mass

01:12:27.900 revival spiritual revival of israel forsaking judaism and coming to christian faith coming

01:12:34.980 to the messiah and that this will happen to israel according to the flesh that they will become true

01:12:39.900 israel according to the promise right that they'll be grafted in alongside the gentiles that they'll

01:12:45.260 be grafted in to this great um christian promise this spiritual promise of faith in christ and

01:12:52.440 union with him he's the vine we're the branches um and that you can believe is a promise still to

01:12:59.480 be fulfilled in our future, as R.C. Sproul believed, and as many covenant theologians today

01:13:05.380 believe, or you can believe that even that spiritual promise has been, it was a future

01:13:11.200 promise at the timing of the writing of Romans 11 in Paul's future, but it's actually in our past, 0.54

01:13:16.720 it was fulfilled in AD 70, that that too has been fulfilled, that a bunch of Israel, the majority

01:13:23.160 of Israel, according to the flesh, did come to saving faith in Christ. And that's a view that

01:13:28.320 certain individuals like James B. Jordan hold that is also perfectly orthodox and appropriate

01:13:33.800 to hold. And in that case, if you're in that position, you would be saying that Israel does 0.99

01:13:38.600 not have a divine right to land. It doesn't, and neither does America or any other nation,

01:13:44.240 for that matter. It does not have a divine right to physical land promises, and there's not a

01:13:49.420 future spiritual promise that has already been fulfilled. So then what does Israel have as a 0.66

01:13:54.820 nation-state, they have the same promise that every country has. If you're post-millennial,

01:14:02.660 see, here's the beauty of being post-millennial, then they have the same promise that every nation

01:14:07.440 has, that the nations are Christ's inheritance, right? The Psalms say, ask of me and I will make

01:14:13.520 the nations your inheritance. The Son has indeed asked, and one by one, gradually and progressively

01:14:20.560 throughout this gospel age, the mustard seed growing to a great tree, the leaven working

01:14:27.180 gradually through the whole lump of dough, that the nations are flocking to Mount Zion,

01:14:32.140 who is Christ in the spiritual ultimate sense, and that every nation will be saved. And Israel,

01:14:39.720 being a nation state, would be counted among the nations, just like Brazil and China and Sudan 0.50

01:14:45.280 and canada and new zealand and every other nation um and that they don't have any special promise

01:14:50.960 beyond that that they will be saved just like canada will be saved and new zealand will be

01:14:56.240 saved and america will be saved um that and that's it um but what clavin wants you to believe

01:15:03.320 and this is a dispensational view he wants you to believe that that's not enough and and that

01:15:07.540 if you have that view you say i think israel will be saved eventually in a great post-millennial

01:15:13.800 hope as all the nations of the world will be saved um but i don't believe that right now today

01:15:19.720 that there is any special sense about israel the nation of israel um that makes them special in

01:15:28.300 the sight of god above any other nation uh clavin wants you to think that that's um that that's

01:15:34.520 anti-semitism right and that it's wicked and satanic and jenna elvis would would uh second

01:15:41.360 him and say that it's heresy um and i just want you to know listener um that clavin is wrong jenna

01:15:48.620 ellis is wrong um that that is uh that's terrible that is absolutely terrible to uh to take the vast

01:15:56.660 uh all the reformers all the puritans and the vast majority of christians throughout 2 000 years of

01:16:02.940 church history and call them all heretics because they all were covenant theologians none of them

01:16:08.520 we're dispensationalists um that that is absolutely uh ridiculous and so the last thing that that you

01:16:15.420 know i think is important on this point is well if you believe that that there's no future land

01:16:20.400 promises or a future spiritual revival because that happened in 80 70 um then you know uh do

01:16:27.480 you believe what what do you think you know the nation state of israel is today you know like

01:16:32.020 and what I would say is that the nation state of Israel today is a legitimate sovereign nation

01:16:39.300 like any other nation in the world. Here's the deal. This is the way God's sovereignty works,

01:16:44.400 okay? And this is the way politics and nations and ethics works, okay? Let me use an illustration

01:16:49.660 of marriage. If a man divorces his wife without biblical cause, meaning there is not infidelity

01:16:56.520 and there was not abandonment he just you know he just didn't like the way that she uh burnt the

01:17:01.940 toast right he was a wicked man sin and he left his wife and ended his his marriage covenant and

01:17:08.560 and then remarried another woman and then was to be converted and came to christian faith and then

01:17:14.720 came to our church uh and and we welcomed him into membership because he had a biblical profession

01:17:20.640 he acknowledged that what he did in the past was sin he's repented of that sin and he comes to

01:17:25.300 church with his second wife who he's now married to but he's he's so convicted over his past life

01:17:31.860 and his past sin he says pastor i don't know what to should i divorce my my current wife and go back

01:17:36.400 to my first wife because i shouldn't have ever divorced her i didn't have biblical cause well

01:17:40.240 what is the pastoral biblical correct accurate accurate answer do i say oh yeah you're right

01:17:45.620 you did it's true you did not have biblical cause for divorcing your first wife because there wasn't

01:17:50.160 infidelity there wasn't abandonment you just didn't like her and you were a wicked man and

01:17:53.620 You did a wicked thing by divorcing her.

01:17:55.320 And so therefore, you should divorce your current wife, 0.97

01:17:57.980 your second wife, and go back and marry her. 0.63

01:17:59.560 No.

01:18:00.640 I would say each man, this is 1 Corinthians 7,

01:18:04.440 each man should remain in whatever station of life he's in

01:18:07.880 when the Lord calls him.

01:18:08.780 That's what Paul says.

01:18:10.740 No, what you did was wrong.

01:18:12.680 So it was completely in contradiction to God's moral will,

01:18:17.440 divorcing your wife without biblical cause,

01:18:19.360 but it was still within, as all things are, his sovereign.

01:18:22.800 Right.

01:18:22.960 because nothing happens by accident and so within god's sovereignty so you sinned and you're culpable

01:18:27.760 for that sin but there's forgiveness in christ when there's confession of sin and repentance

01:18:31.980 and and you now um although you sinned i uh ed in the past tense you are not currently in an

01:18:40.240 ongoing continual state of sin yeah so now bring that to israel there are some who would say well

01:18:46.320 i don't know if the origins of the nation state of israel back in the 1940s if that should have

01:18:51.560 happened i'm not going to give you my view on that okay so if you're looking forward to that

01:18:56.440 that's just not going to happen today all right um but here's the deal there's a debate to be had

01:19:00.420 there's good points to be made on both sides but here's the point it doesn't matter um so let's say

01:19:06.640 that it was all just a cabal it was all you know nefarious purposes and it was wrong and it was

01:19:12.620 unethical and and it went against just war theory and it went against this and went against that

01:19:16.740 It was all against God's revealed moral will that Israel got that land in the 1940s and became a

01:19:23.820 nation state. Okay? Sure. Even if that's the case, the question is, today, they're a nation state. 0.72

01:19:31.760 And it's the same thing as the marriage situation. They are a nation today, like it or not. Whether

01:19:38.020 the way that came about was biblical and ethical or not, they are a nation today. And here's my

01:19:44.640 point as a nation today they have the right to police their borders they have the right to a

01:19:50.580 military and they have the right to defense so so back to the anti-semitism thing even if you're a

01:19:56.740 full supersessionist and you say there's no divine right to the land not a divine right to the land

01:20:03.100 just like there's not america doesn't have a divine right to this land there's no divine right

01:20:07.700 to the land and there's no future spiritual revival because that already happened in 80 70

01:20:12.360 even the full supersessionist would still be able to say but in the providence and sovereignty of

01:20:18.160 god whether it was moral or not god still sovereignly established the nation state of

01:20:23.460 israel just like he sovereignly established brazil and china and canada and you know fill in the

01:20:28.660 blank etc etc and therefore they are a legitimate nation state today whether the way that happened

01:20:35.260 was legitimate or not doesn't matter providentially as it pertains to today as it currently rests

01:20:40.440 They are a legitimate nation state. They have a right to borders, a right to citizenship,

01:20:46.240 a right to a military, and a right to defense. And therefore, I support Israel, as I do any nation,

01:20:54.420 their right to defend their country from enemies, both foreign and domestic. And yet,

01:21:02.340 um i do not believe that america uh has uh an obligation a biblical spiritual moral obligation

01:21:11.340 to uh fund them in their defense they so i support the nation state of israel uh that

01:21:18.180 they're a legitimate nation whether they were legitimately contrived or not they are a legitimate

01:21:24.460 nation today they have a legitimate military and they legitimately are i have the ethical 0.76

01:21:29.980 permissibility under god to defend their nation and their neighbors are savages too hamas and 0.91

01:21:36.700 in palestine they are not the neighbors that you want in their side so they absolutely should 0.92

01:21:41.120 put up some walls have a border and the right to protect it and you're also not saying that

01:21:45.900 while saying but i don't believe that they are still in a unique covenant with god right and

01:21:52.280 they don't have a divine right to the land so if somebody else kicked them out and 75 more years

01:21:57.080 went past i'd say the same thing about this new nation that i'm saying right now about israel

01:22:01.460 because it's not eternally indefinitely their land that's what i mean right just like america

01:22:05.960 isn't indefinitely our land in canada it's not in depth that's what so do they have a right to

01:22:10.320 the land right now yes are they a legitimate nation right now yes um and and do i support

01:22:16.720 israel their people defending their borders and their nation against their enemies yep yep but i

01:22:23.720 can say all that without saying they have a divine land promise and without even saying that they have

01:22:28.900 a future spiritual revival other than the general spiritual revival that all nations have because

01:22:35.780 i'm post-millennial and i believe all nations will come to christ and um and therefore america it may

01:22:42.240 or may not be politically advantageous for us to support them and to have them as allies and

01:22:47.800 currently i don't believe it is and none of that is anti-semitic and andrew clavin would have you

01:22:53.020 believe that that is anti-semitic yeah andrew clavin does not again in that clip he does not

01:22:57.360 say uh the christ is king crowd is wishing death upon uh every jew no he uh and therefore they're

01:23:04.360 anti-semitic twisting scripture like satan and wicked no he says the christ is king crowd that's

01:23:09.160 anti-semitic satanic and wicked is the crowd uh that uh simply is not zionist and brothers and

01:23:17.160 sisters listening you do not have to be a zionist to not be anti-semitic right if you're watching

01:23:22.460 this for a visual if this is anti-semitism and this over here is zionism there's a lot of room

01:23:28.260 in between yeah that's my point that's my point it's not that there are it's not a razor and

01:23:33.500 there are only two sides that you're either zionist or an anti-semit that is baloney yeah

01:23:39.820 that is that is propaganda that's political weaponized uh tactics to to silence freedom

01:23:49.220 of speech and i reject it christ is king and i'm not a zionist christ is king and i'm also not

01:23:56.860 anti-semitic not crazy any anything you guys want to add to that no it's good i think we'll hit a

01:24:05.100 commercial break and commercials and then we'll show that last uh the universalism part of clavin

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01:25:47.300 All right, well, welcome back. To bring this to right now, literally right now,

01:25:52.520 why does this matter? Why does an understanding of Israel and the Jewish people,

01:25:56.540 How is it playing out?

01:25:58.280 In South Dakota, so this would be Republican Governor Kristi Noem.

01:26:02.440 Notice I did not say conservative.

01:26:04.140 Republican Governor Kristi Noem recently signed House Bill 1706.

01:26:07.900 House Bill 1706, it adds a category of discrimination,

01:26:12.180 and that category of discrimination uses what's called

01:26:14.880 the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definitions of anti-Semitism.

01:26:20.460 So now there's a new protected category in the state of South Dakota.

01:26:23.700 Is this law now?

01:26:24.460 This is law.

01:26:25.000 She signed this.

01:26:25.520 This isn't just a bill that someone put forward, or even an executive order.

01:26:28.880 This was passed by both houses, by Senate and by House law now in South Dakota.

01:26:33.460 There are protected categories against discrimination.

01:26:35.900 So me being late for work and getting fired, not a protected category.

01:26:39.820 Getting fired for being white, well, decreasingly so now, that's not, that would be a protected 0.51

01:26:45.160 category, a protected category of sex or race or disability. 0.58

01:26:47.900 So in South Dakota, there's the addition now, the adoption of these European Union style

01:26:53.200 definitions of anti-Semitism. And some of the definitions in there, Nate, you can actually

01:26:59.080 show the image of it. One of the definitions in there of, among other speech, among other rhetoric,

01:27:04.660 is using symbols and images associated with classical anti-Semitism. For example,

01:27:11.580 claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel to characterize Israel or Israelis. So in this law

01:27:19.280 that's been signed in that adds new categories

01:27:21.460 of discrimination. Here in the United

01:27:23.260 States, this month, this was just signed,

01:27:25.380 there has now been added EU-style

01:27:27.020 regulations that say, if you say 1.00

01:27:28.860 the Jews killed Jesus, we were just talking 1.00

01:27:31.220 about this, that certainly there's a sense

01:27:33.360 where our sins are what put Jesus on the cross.

01:27:35.680 But here's the deal, that's not the truth

01:27:37.280 that's under fire. Nobody cares if you

01:27:39.160 confess that. What's under fire

01:27:41.120 right now is the truth that

01:27:42.980 the people in the first century

01:27:44.720 cried out for the blood of Jesus and put

01:27:47.200 him to death. And here in the United States,

01:27:49.100 Now, if you are in South Dakota, and you say that, maybe you have an employee or a student

01:27:54.320 or someone in your church that is Jewish, and then maybe later on they were let go or

01:27:58.500 fired, they could come to the state and say, I was discriminated against because he affirmed

01:28:02.940 basic biblical truth.

01:28:05.000 And what we'll always see, too, is this definition expands.

01:28:07.280 So right now, it's the Jews killed Jesus. 0.52

01:28:09.640 What will it be in two years?

01:28:11.260 We talked about Christ is King, for example.

01:28:13.480 Christ is Lord.

01:28:14.340 Jesus is the Messiah.

01:28:15.840 These laws never stay where they are.

01:28:17.320 they always expand to greater and greater protection of the ruling class.

01:28:22.240 Just today in Texas, Governor Greg Abbott signed an executive order

01:28:26.920 that at Texas universities, so at Texas colleges,

01:28:30.640 he is cracking down on anti-Semitic speech, anti-Semitic actions.

01:28:36.020 Now, certainly...

01:28:37.040 Read the tweet real quick, Wes.

01:28:38.400 Oh, right. It's right there.

01:28:39.600 Anti-Semitism will not be tolerated in Texas.

01:28:42.420 Today I issued an executive order to fight

01:28:44.320 the increase in acts of anti-Semitism at Texas colleges and universities.

01:28:49.180 Texas stands with our Jewish students.

01:28:51.740 We will ensure our college campuses are safe space for the Jewish community.

01:28:55.480 Now, most certainly, nobody should be threatened on the right of class.

01:28:58.300 We already have those laws.

01:29:00.220 Threatening, violence, any of those different things for any reason is already outlawed.

01:29:05.360 And he notes that in the more expanded version of the executive order he signed,

01:29:09.300 that they're going to be looking into what the appropriate punishment is for anti-Semitic rhetoric.

01:29:14.320 And as a Christian, you need to understand there is very, it's very likely there is coming

01:29:18.260 a time, depending on your state, that affirming basic biblical truth, Christ is king, the 0.89

01:29:24.660 Jews did historically kill Jesus, that affirming that will get you punishment. 0.92

01:29:30.480 And your confession, your courage is not tested because you confessed the Apostles' Creed 1.00

01:29:34.960 or the Council of Nicaea.

01:29:36.740 We've been hitting on this for a couple of weeks.

01:29:38.700 Courage is tested at the testing point.

01:29:41.140 courage is shown when an exact biblical truth is pressed in on when it costs you something to

01:29:48.520 confess it and you in the face of it say as luther said at the diet of worms here i stand unless

01:29:54.380 convinced by scripture i can do no other and so christians have to be ready and it's uncomfortable

01:29:59.260 to get called anti-semitic we have been conditioned for so long to feel terrible about that right

01:30:05.580 Same way with racism and xenophobia.

01:30:08.060 What were you going to add?

01:30:09.060 Well, as a biblical example, this is 1 Thessalonians 2.

01:30:13.580 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:30:15.600 I'll start with verse 14.

01:30:17.600 Paul writing to the Thessalonian church, he says,

01:30:21.520 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea.

01:30:28.860 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 0.95

01:30:34.000 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us out and displeased God and oppose 1.00

01:30:41.020 all mankind. According to the Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit,

01:30:47.680 he describes the Jews as those who killed the Lord Jesus Christ and the prophets and the apostles,

01:30:57.100 and the apostles that they couldn't kill, they drove out. And he says, and they oppose

01:31:03.620 all mankind uh the apostle paul is saying that the jews as a people um are the enemies of humanity 1.00

01:31:13.280 now i have ways of interpreting that and see this is part of the reason why i like the view

01:31:21.880 that i hold because i think it's actually uh the by far most charitable view yeah um

01:31:27.380 so but i don't have time to get into that today and we're gonna have to say that for another time

01:31:32.120 but i'll say this if you believe i'll just say it like this if you believe that uh the nation

01:31:39.980 state of israel today that these are the same people genetically covenantally nationally the

01:31:48.780 same people as first century jews at the time of christ and the apostles the jews that paul's

01:31:54.620 talking about in first thessalonians chapter two um and they haven't been saved yet you believe

01:32:00.860 romans 11 is a future spiritual promise for them to of revival for them to be saved but that it

01:32:07.280 hasn't happened yet then you would have to say that if you think the nation state of israel today 0.77

01:32:12.320 2 000 years later these are the same people these are the posterity the descendants of the same jews

01:32:18.660 that paul is talking about in first thessalonians um then then these are the descendants of those

01:32:27.900 who according to paul killed christ the prophets the apostles or drove out the apostles and oppose

01:32:35.020 all mankind until god saves him until a great revival right um that's that's where things

01:32:42.660 currently rest where are we currently at as nate as the nation of israel is still currently in a

01:32:47.820 state of apostasy in in generally speaking overall the vast majority in rebellion against christ

01:32:55.060 and the christian faith um then that's that would have to be that would have to be your view now

01:33:02.280 again we all killed jesus we we have to be able to speak in multiple senses we all killed jesus

01:33:12.400 by our sin also no one technically and so in one sense no one killed jesus he freely laid down his

01:33:19.460 life in an ultimate eternal sense he died to to atone for the sins of all people from every tribe

01:33:26.500 tongue and nation we all sinned we all made the cross necessary all peoples um and then in one

01:33:32.460 sense the romans are the ones who literally drive the nails through his hands but in the other sense

01:33:37.280 pilot wants to wash his hands clean of it he wants to let jesus go but he's up for re-election he

01:33:42.680 needs the jews in his province to be on his side and they are absolutely committed to to his 0.71

01:33:50.780 crucifixion crucify him the question is will i will this podcast um will there be will there be 0.53

01:34:00.240 legal penalties in the state of texas for this podcast one day that's what that's what we're

01:34:06.980 discussing uh will will it be um will it be a crime with legal penalties to say uh to to to

01:34:18.340 read and preach first thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 matthew yep like will that be a crime

01:34:26.300 and so that's that's the point that's just one it's relevant for a ton of reasons it's relevant

01:34:30.920 because your grandma um is writing checks to israel probably you know on her fixed income

01:34:36.740 It's relevant because guys in the Republican Party run on a pro-Israel platform because

01:34:43.780 they know that evangelicals, for the most part, are dispensational, and their theology

01:34:48.840 informs their political vote, right?

01:34:51.060 So it's relevant for those reasons.

01:34:52.300 It's also relevant because there are certain explicit verses in the Bible that you won't

01:34:57.900 even be able to read out loud, out loud, if this passes.

01:35:02.680 It's like the laws about not being able to read portions of the Bible about homosexuality,

01:35:06.520 in the UK and in Canada. 1.00

01:35:08.260 Right, exactly.

01:35:10.040 Yeah, exactly.

01:35:10.920 Certain scriptures on homosexuality

01:35:12.620 that you can't read out loud in the UK. 1.00

01:35:14.680 And you can be sure the Nuance Bros will show up

01:35:16.280 and be like, look,

01:35:16.760 there's all these other verses in the Bible.

01:35:18.660 Let's preach them for now.

01:35:20.300 You can be sure.

01:35:21.100 People will say that.

01:35:22.100 They will compromise at the exact point of the battle.

01:35:25.120 Right.

01:35:25.680 Right where it matters.

01:35:27.020 Yep.

01:35:27.820 All right, let's do the final portion of the clip,

01:35:30.140 Universalism with Claven.

01:35:34.060 Nathan's going to cue it up.

01:35:35.100 um this is for those of you who are just tuning in we're showing this was from clavin's own show

01:35:40.400 um and uh cross politic if you want to watch that he went across politic as a follow-up

01:35:45.640 and they pressed him on this issue of wait a second are you saying that somebody could deny

01:35:50.020 christ but but technically in the final analysis when they die stand before christ and find out

01:35:55.540 that they had actually been serving him all along and go to heaven and uh he says it explicitly on

01:36:00.300 his show in this clip that we're about to show uh but if there was any question uh he absolutely

01:36:04.900 double downs and confirms it on the show with uh cross politic and chalk knocks at the end i thought

01:36:09.600 did a really good job uh holding his feet to the fire and saying uh no dude this is basic christianity

01:36:15.440 you're denying it yeah um and so good on good on you uh david shannon uh for a little bit of

01:36:20.560 contracts too about clavin his son is gay and he's come out and said it's not ideal but i still

01:36:26.020 like affirms it basically and he's anglican so there's some questions in the chat for those

01:36:30.160 listening is he catholic is he this he's anglican and he has a gay son that he has refused to come

01:36:35.300 out against married gay son well yeah married works at daily wire where does he work no he

01:36:41.020 has his own thing it's some conservative yeah he's a conservative commentator so that yeah

01:36:46.980 that's spencer clavin and andrew clavin has multiple times so that that's not for years 0.75

01:36:51.880 has um he'll he'll say the way that he'll word it he'll say um i don't believe that homosexual

01:36:57.760 relationships are normative or should be normal so i he would say i believe it's morally wrong 0.58

01:37:02.840 for these to be normative in society and for society to um to incentivize you know push so

01:37:10.040 he would say i well i i stand against you know media constantly pushing like you know you should

01:37:14.560 be gay and you know um but he so he would say it uh um the the normative god's normative design

01:37:20.980 for society is you know um heterosexual you know monogamous uh lifelong marriage uh that's the

01:37:28.600 context for children children blah blah blah all this kind of stuff uh so that's normative and

01:37:32.940 that's the design uh but he'll carve out he'll carve out and say but for some individuals who

01:37:39.460 are born this way and he would include his son under that banner right uh born this way uh they

01:37:44.720 can't help it and he and he so he's not just saying i still love my son despite the fact that

01:37:48.940 he's in sin that that would be one thing he's not saying that he's saying um i love my son and he's 0.76

01:37:53.740 and he's right with christ yeah my son is good he's good yeah being being in a homosexual marriage 0.78

01:38:00.040 all right here we go all right step-by-step guy no turning post-mill thinking in

01:38:09.560 That's not it.

01:38:11.780 Oh, there it is.

01:38:13.760 It's coming.

01:38:14.460 Get ready, guys.

01:38:16.800 When I did this, by the way.

01:38:20.400 Okay.

01:38:22.180 Yep.

01:38:24.680 Just hit play.

01:38:25.420 We'll play the whole thing.

01:38:27.460 That's my race.

01:38:28.240 I'm a Jew.

01:38:28.560 I'm proud of my race.

01:38:29.940 It's a great race.

01:38:30.820 It's done many, many great things, including write the Bible.

01:38:33.440 And, you know, I am a Jew.

01:38:34.840 But that hasn't happened at all.

01:38:35.820 Christians have welcomed me with open arms, except this Christ the King anti-Semitic crowd.

01:38:42.680 Christ is the King, and one day every knee will bow and recognize it because he's not just my

01:38:48.240 King, he's King of the universe. But when you use that phrase to mean that God has abandoned

01:38:54.400 his chosen people, the Jews, through whom he came into this world incarnate, and that he's broken

01:39:00.800 his promises his covenant with the jews you are quoting scripture like satan does in the bible

01:39:08.080 you are quoting scripture to your purposes and that to me is specifically wicked you know

01:39:18.400 my friend ben shapiro and you know i i understand this all every all of you who love ben and i love

01:39:25.040 ben and jordan peterson you all want to see them find jesus because you know what joy and freedom

01:39:29.840 that gives you, and you certainly feel that it alters your relationship with God.

01:39:36.880 But when I think about this, to be honest with you, you know, and I know some people

01:39:40.800 will disagree with this, but life is not a game show where you guess the name of God

01:39:45.480 and you get to go to heaven, honk, you know, yes, the name is Jesus.

01:39:49.000 I look at Ben's life, and I think if Ben were to embrace Jesus Christ, it would cause devastation

01:39:54.280 to his family, to the people who love him, to the people who listen to him, to his position

01:39:58.640 in the world i just have this feeling that god has put this guy where he wants him to do what

01:40:06.080 he wants him to do and as you know i feel that you know the jews were not abandoned by god

01:40:11.420 all right in the ultimate sovereign sense yes god has been shapiro i could affirm that statement

01:40:19.980 right there god has been shapiro and everybody else every single person for that matter justin

01:40:24.460 Trudeau, Joe Biden, you know, like, yeah, God has everybody right where he wants them, right where

01:40:30.540 he wants them. But that's not what Clavin's saying. Clavin's not saying in the ultimate

01:40:35.720 sovereign sense, God is meticulously sovereign over all people, even unbelievers, and has them

01:40:43.680 right where he wants them, whether they acknowledge him or not, whether they realize it or not, they

01:40:49.120 are being used by God to bring about his ultimate sovereign ends. That's not what he's saying.

01:40:54.460 notice one of the things that he gets at there is he says you you know i know you all are you know

01:40:59.920 you're praying for ben you're praying for jordan peterson you want them to come to christ but

01:41:03.540 he says but that would destroy ben's life it would destroy his relationships with his family

01:41:10.480 you know do you know how how destructive how how chaotic that you know do you know how hard how

01:41:15.500 costly see that's what he's getting but that would cost ben you see my friend ben uh if he came to

01:41:22.260 christ there'd be a cost to following christ guys you know so knock it off stop that selfish prayer

01:41:29.240 you know that ben wouldn't go to hell and that he would you know come to saving faith in jesus

01:41:33.580 christ you know stop being so selfish guys god has been right where he wants him fulfilling his

01:41:39.040 purpose and also um we don't want to rock the boat you know ben's got a good thing going and

01:41:46.220 if he came to christ he might have to forsake father and mother he might you know a house

01:41:53.920 you know of five might be divided against itself two against three three against two wait a second

01:42:00.100 what oh those are the words of jesus there's always a cost to following jesus yeah it would

01:42:05.960 be costly if ben came to saving faith in christ yes it would be relationally costly it would be

01:42:11.780 financially cost him he'd lose a lot of his following i think he'd gain a lot too you know

01:42:16.840 but but either way financially it might cost him at least in the short term uh relationally

01:42:22.820 with his family with his his parents it would definitely cost him um again initially but maybe

01:42:29.560 god would use ben to bring his parents to faith that's exactly so when you follow christ it always

01:42:34.080 cost up front there's always a cost um but here's the thing uh jesus says and here's the you know

01:42:40.980 the pietists don't want to talk about this but uh but jesus says um you know peter says we we've

01:42:46.940 given up all these things for you to follow you and jesus says i tell you the truth you know those

01:42:51.600 who have given up houses you know and and family and parents and this and that all these different

01:42:56.840 things uh for my sake i tell you the truth will they not um receive a hundred times more uh and

01:43:04.240 he says not only the life to come but in this life also that's literally the words of jesus but uh

01:43:09.840 and in this life also. And here's the deal. Do some people follow Jesus and become martyrs?

01:43:15.900 Yes. Persecuted all their life and eventually put to death for their faith in Jesus. Yes,

01:43:21.260 that is absolutely true. But it is also absolutely true, it is also absolutely true,

01:43:27.540 that there are many who come to saving faith in Jesus, and not only do they inherit eternal life

01:43:32.740 in the life to come, but they also, their lives tangibly get better here on earth, right? Children,

01:43:38.640 and obey your parents in the Lord. This is the first commandment with the promise that it may

01:43:41.620 go well for you and that you may live a long life here, this life on the earth, right? That there

01:43:47.260 are, when someone comes to Christ, usually, I'm just speaking in ordinary terms. This is not 100%

01:43:55.220 guarantee for all people. Some will be martyred. Some will be drawn and courted. Some will be

01:43:59.980 beheaded. Some will be, the Bible talks about that. That's the hall of fame or the hall of 0.98

01:44:04.440 faith, Hebrews 11. But also through faith, some conquered armies, right? There's the victors,

01:44:09.020 and then there are the martyrs. But they're all, in the ultimate sense, victors in Christ.

01:44:13.420 But some people pay, they pay a high price, and some people, they actually conquer in this life,

01:44:20.220 but all through faith. So by faith, some conquer. By faith, some are conquered temporarily in this

01:44:25.680 life, but they receive infinitely more in the life to come. But ordinarily, in a nation like ours,

01:44:31.820 right? If we're talking about North Korea, maybe it's a little bit different. But in these United

01:44:35.320 States of America, even as bad as things have gotten today, even as bad as things have gotten

01:44:40.380 with as much hangover from a Christendom past that we still have by the grace of God in a nation

01:44:46.060 like ours, if someone comes to Christ today, most of the cost, because there is a cost to following

01:44:50.600 Jesus always, but most of that cost will be paid up front. Most of the cost will be initial. It'll

01:44:56.480 be the initial loss of relationships it'll be the initial loss maybe of a job the initial loss as a

01:45:02.680 multi-millionaire he's not going to be out on the street he'll be there are people that will be or

01:45:06.200 will lose their life right ben shapiro will have an audience until the day even if it was i mean

01:45:12.840 you said before joel that in the early church you could go from being a pauper to being well off

01:45:20.500 from one day to the next by by legitimately converting to christ right because they shared

01:45:25.180 everything in common because there was there was it was an unparalleled degree of charity generosity

01:45:30.500 and christian unity that nobody nobody else had yeah that's josephus who was not a christian he's

01:45:36.840 you know he was a jew um who is saying he says it's a very peculiar thing uh that a person could

01:45:43.040 go from being a pauper to a prince virtually overnight simply by joining the ranks of the

01:45:47.560 christians he's saying they're that generous and that kind in the way that they care for their own

01:45:52.460 So the point is, by paying the cost, there is a cost to being Christ's disciple.

01:45:59.300 We know that.

01:46:00.400 But my point is that ordinarily, and especially in a nation like America that has so many

01:46:05.000 rights and freedoms still on the books today, even with a great erosion, there's still many

01:46:10.740 left over today, ordinarily, the vast majority of that cost will be an initial cost paid

01:46:16.060 up front.

01:46:16.520 but then after paying that cost, most Christians, because of their faith in Jesus and obedience to

01:46:23.800 his law word, in the long run, and I'm not just talking about heaven, guaranteed in the life to

01:46:28.820 come, but even in this life, they lose initially, but then they gain a ton, not only in the life to

01:46:34.280 come, but in this life as well. And Jesus says that. And that is what happens. Why? Because

01:46:40.560 because you forsake your sin, you embrace Christ and repentance, you seek to be obedient to his

01:46:47.840 law, not to earn salvation, but as a response of gratitude for the free salvation you have by grace

01:46:52.480 through faith in Christ alone. And guess what? When you start obeying God's law and you practice

01:46:57.140 more integrity in business and you keep your wedding vows to your wife and you become a better

01:47:02.560 father with your children and you become a better friend, then guess what? Life goes better

01:47:08.020 ordinarily are there some exceptions to the rule or is there persecution at times yes but ordinarily

01:47:14.660 especially in a free nation mostly free nation like ours um somebody who embraces christ there

01:47:21.460 will be a cost but most of the cost will be their sin which is a cost with good riddance right we

01:47:27.620 want to get rid of our sin it'll cost you your sin it'll always cost that and in addition to

01:47:31.980 your sin, it might also cost you initially up front some relationships, some status, maybe a job,

01:47:38.380 maybe some money. But in the long run, and I'm not just speaking eternally in the life to come,

01:47:44.320 certainly infinite gain in heaven, but even in this life, initial loss, but then progressively

01:47:50.420 there's gain. In this life, there is gain. Why? Because God will not be mocked and a man will

01:47:56.620 reap what he sows and by following god's blueprints for living life in god's world things ordinarily

01:48:03.540 will go better for you right so um and ben shapiro might say some things are actually based for the

01:48:09.000 first time if he converts yeah exactly yep so there would be a loss for ben shapiro but um

01:48:14.680 because we love ben shapiro and want him to be saved uh dude embrace embrace the loss uh count

01:48:23.400 it all as law, next to knowing Christ, your Savior. I think a famous Jew said that at one point.

01:48:30.160 A famous Jew did say that. Yep. Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for tuning in, 0.82

01:48:34.580 and pray for Clavin, that he would repent, especially the universalism,

01:48:40.280 and pray for Ben and his salvation. Pray for Jordan Peterson, who's not a Jew, but

01:48:45.760 he needs Jesus too. It's not just that Jews need Jesus. Pray that Jordan Peterson would be saved

01:48:51.800 and converted. If he's not already, pray that, but I don't think he is, pray that Ben would be

01:48:58.140 converted, and pray that Andrew Clavin, if he is a Christian, and I say if because he espoused

01:49:06.660 universalism. It's not the first time he's done it, and he doubled down with cross-politic,

01:49:10.020 and it was explicit. And that is not just a secondary issue. That is a denial of primary

01:49:15.840 doctrine, the exclusivity of Christ. I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father

01:49:20.020 but by me. And so please pray that Clavin, that God would save him. I lean towards him being

01:49:28.740 unconverted. He's just not a Christian. He's affirming his gay son in his gay marriage and 1.00

01:49:36.080 espousing universalism and also essentially saying that if you hold to covenant theology, 0.98

01:49:44.120 then uh you're satanic wicked and um anti-semitic anti-semitic so not uh the scoreboard's not looking

01:49:51.720 great for clavin um so again god alone sees a heart man looks at the outward appearance but 0.93

01:49:56.680 jesus says you'll know them by their fruit um and and we are supposed to look at someone's profession

01:50:01.240 and their life and their character and their son and their affirmation of his son and those kind

01:50:06.800 of things and so uh based off of that i have no confidence that clavin is a christian so uh pray

01:50:11.440 for ben to be saved pray for jordan but also pray for clavin because he needs jesus and uh if he is

01:50:16.460 saved um then he quickly needs to recant and repent um and for all of you guys who are listening to

01:50:24.480 this who have seen all the twitter war back and forth um you need you need to uh be aware of the

01:50:30.920 times you need to know the play the play right now is not uh there's this christ the king group

01:50:35.920 that is saying death to jews and that's anti-semitic that's not the play the play is

01:50:42.520 there's this christ the king group and they're not dispensational zionist who are shilling for

01:50:49.460 the nation state of israel every day of the week and who believe in the third temple believe in a

01:50:55.400 divine right to the land and believe that america should support them as a political ally with

01:51:00.260 billions of tax paying dollars and anything less than that is anti-semitism right once upon a time

01:51:06.120 anti-semitism uh meant that you don't like jews today anti-semitism seems to mean that certain

01:51:15.880 jews or adjacent to jews don't like you and there's a big difference between the two

01:51:22.720 don't fall for it christ is king thanks for tuning in 0.85

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The NXR Podcast - March 27, 2024

THE LIVESTREAM - Christ Is King! ｜ Andrew Klavan, Zionism, & Universalism.

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