In this episode, we take a trip down memory lane and look at the early history of the Christian faith in the Western Empire. We are joined by The Other Paul to talk about sacralism, the state, and how God established Christianity in the western empire.
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00:00:26.800Shortly before his ascension, our Savior commanded his followers to go and disciple all nations,
00:00:34.540baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
00:00:39.200and to teach them all that he, that is Christ, had commanded them.
00:00:43.480In pursuit of this command, the apostles and their successors commenced a multi-century struggle
00:00:49.720to preserve the faith once delivered and declare it to all the nations.
00:00:54.240These men, that is, our spiritual fathers, laid the foundations of the church and preached the gospel to every city they could, frequently inviting the wrath of the pagan authorities for upsetting the Pax Deorum, that is, the peace of the gods.
00:01:10.580Most of the apostles would be martyred, along with many later men like Polycarp of Smyrna, a bishop and disciple of John, and Cyprian of Carthage.
00:01:20.940But divine providence would change this state of affairs over a mere few decades.
00:01:27.280Not long after the Diocletian persecution of the early 4th century, Flavius, Valerius, Constantinus, or Constantine the Great, would ascend to dominance over the western half of the Roman Empire.
00:01:42.420Constantine would adopt the Christian faith, and by consequence, he would set off a chain
00:01:48.340of events that saw the increasing fulfillment of prophecy of Isaiah, that the law would
00:01:54.360go out from Zion, and the Lord would judge between the nations.
00:01:58.800His successors would solidify his Christian measures, culminating in the declaration of
00:02:04.860Nicene Christianity as the official faith of the empire through the edict of Thessalonica,
00:02:11.920delivered by Emperor Theodosius I in AD 380. Though paganism did not disappear overnight,
00:02:20.620these decrees oriented the Roman state and eventually other European kingdoms
00:02:25.440towards the full dominance of Christianity in all parts of their kingdoms, to the point that
00:02:31.480even our mere knowledge of various pre-Christian folk religions is patchy, sometimes pure conjecture.
00:02:39.080It was by these means that the faith would dominate Europe, and through these European
00:02:44.020empires be exported across the globe.0.89
00:02:47.300Further, the intellectual development of the faith that we enjoy today was done under the
00:02:52.660patronage of princes, guaranteeing the time, resources, and security necessary for theologians
00:03:00.140of old to exercise their gifts, though the preaching of the word was the absolutely essential
00:03:06.620spark that lit the flame of the faith. It was the Christian magistrate who carried the torch
00:03:13.080and spread the light into all spheres, and thus fulfilled the prophecy of David. That is,
00:03:20.100blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. This episode is brought to you by our premier
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00:03:33.820You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries, or
00:03:41.940you can donate by going to right response ministries.com forward slash donate.
00:03:48.540So tune in to today's episode as we are joined by special guest, the other Paul to talk about
00:03:55.520sacralism, the state and how God established Christianity in the West.
00:04:03.820hello hello hello i predict no less than 147 sacralisms will be committed in this particular
00:04:17.280episode i would like to start by welcoming the other paul from the land down under welcome
00:04:22.740brother thanks for coming on the show good beautiful morning gentlemen from australia
00:04:28.980it is a very nice and early 6 14 a.m here i am very happy to be on with you great well um let's
00:04:37.500go ahead and dive in sorry before we do okay like and share the video like and share the video yeah
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00:04:48.000youtube also go over and follow us on x all of our videos are posted on x plus uh some uh some
00:04:55.420bonus little commentary from myself that usually gets a little bit of attention from time to time.
00:05:05.360Something about hatred kind of did some numbers a few days ago. So if you want to follow us on X,
00:05:12.000the handle is at right response M, the letter M for ministry. There's not enough characters there.
00:05:18.580So at right response M, follow us on X and then subscribe on YouTube. And you can help get the
00:05:23.600word out by liking and sharing the video. Okay, so our topic today is we're going to take a walk
00:05:29.600down memory lane. We're going to look at a thousand years of Christendom, and we're going to look at
00:05:34.520the role that the state has played underneath the providence of God when it comes to Christian
00:05:40.120faith, its preservation, also its expansion over the known world. We did an episode, this would
00:05:46.760have been I think about a month and a half or so ago, and just titled The State Must Correct the
00:05:50.940church, that at some level the state has a role in that. And we intentionally went very high level
00:05:55.420at the end of the day, as far as knowledge and degrees and all of that. We focused on some of
00:06:00.160the most known stories from Christendom. And however, there is way more there to be spoken
00:06:05.820of. And the other Paul is really read on this. And so we reached out and we collaborated on this
00:06:09.940together. There's actually even going to be, I think this is one of the first times we've done
00:06:13.500it. There's going to be a link in the description on YouTube where you can see all of these sources,
00:06:17.220you can link to them, you can go read them. So he's done a ton of reading, ton of research,
00:06:21.120really excited to talk really in depth about this. And so, Paul, let's start with the early
00:06:25.240church. We mentioned Constantine. That's kind of the first moment the state even has much of a
00:06:29.480recognition of Christianity besides its persecution. So how does it go from there?
00:06:34.260Correct. So before we, just before we get into that, and thank you gentlemen, by the way,
00:06:38.360for having me on, because I do, I can't believe it's only been like, what you said, a month or
00:06:42.260a month and a half since that, the state must correct the church video. That's, it's felt like
00:06:46.180way longer since then at least a lot has happened so I guess that's probably why but just before we
00:06:50.780jump right into that um I want to set up some context with what we're talking about so this
00:06:55.460word sacralism uh it is it's not one that our camp so to speak has really come up with but it
00:07:02.680is one which uh which we're using here and which I am quite fine with actually stealing for our
00:07:07.720purposes uh but was otherwise largely pioneered not first coined but in this context pioneered
00:07:14.840by the likes of Dr. James White. He uses it to refer to this overall system of church state
00:07:22.260synthesis in civil society. And he basically uses it as a bludgeon to say, oh, this is a bad thing.
00:07:28.280We don't want that. Persecution, so on and so forth. And he, excuse me, he uses that concept
00:07:36.340to, well, he uses that word to rail against the concept. So if we can, would we be able to pull
00:07:41.400up the first quote, uh, which is my own synthesized definition, uh, nice and quick. I like that
00:07:48.120of, uh, of sacralism from Dr. White. So this definition I came up with from his work is
00:07:54.760a form of civil polity in which there is a formal relationship between the state
00:07:59.580and an established church such that the state may exercise authority over the affairs of that
00:08:04.820established church. And the church in turn enjoys by law, a supremacy of privileges over and above
00:08:10.840all other religions and sects. In principle, these other religions and sects may be suppressed to
00:08:16.400some degree, including and up to total criminalization, depending on what is most
00:08:20.440prudent at the given time. Further, national citizenship and official membership in the
00:08:24.720established church are often, but not always, tied together. So that's what I want to establish
00:08:30.280as the essential object of Dr. White's critique, but for this presentation's case, what I'll be
00:08:37.300arguing was actually quite essential to the Christian cultural hegemony that all of us
00:08:44.280take for granted today and all of us enjoy. So that's the, that's just the starting point I want0.90
00:08:50.780to begin with. And assuming there's nothing you gents want to say about that, I can get right1.00
00:08:55.860into the, into the history with the early church. Go ahead. That's a good definition though. I0.89
00:09:00.580appreciate that perfect perfect thank you very much so the first event people will common point
00:09:08.660commonly point to as the beginning of christian church state relations in the early church
00:09:14.460will be the edict of toleration of emperor constantine in the year 313 but that's actually
00:09:20.900not quite true i want to start with just an initial one where actually in the late third
00:09:25.160century the uh the heretic paul samasata was condemned by at that point the largest council
00:09:32.660in christian history something like 70 80 or so bishops possibly more uh the council of antioch
00:09:38.340which is in the 260s 270s i don't have this in my notes but i just thought to mention it anyway
00:09:42.220and that bishop uh when he was condemned for his his heretical views he refused to leave his church
00:09:50.720he refused to leave the building and bishops around him apparently couldn't do anything about
00:09:54.620it. So what they did was appeal to the pagan emperor Aurelian and just said, hey, this guy
00:10:01.080is occupying our buildings. He won't leave. Please get him out. And Aurelian said, look, whoever's in0.86
00:10:06.080the good graces of the bishops of Italy and Rome, I'll give the building to them. And so with that,
00:10:13.000the bishop Paul Samosata was kicked out of Antioch. And that basically started the precedent
00:10:18.260of a long pattern where actually the church often needs outside help to sort out its affairs. But
00:10:23.180anyway, we come to the year 311 where the pagan emperor Galerius actually issues the first edict
00:10:32.000of toleration. I don't know if it was total, but it was actually one that just preceded that of
00:10:37.260Constantine and it was an edict of toleration basically out of necessity. He basically says
00:10:43.700in the edict, these Christians, they refuse to die. They refuse to convert back to the ways of1.00
00:10:49.360their forefathers so fine all right we're just going to let you be for the most part just don't
00:10:54.000do x y and z after that emperor constantine in the year 313 he issues his edict of toleration
00:11:00.400which is much more positive and he frames it as allowing the different groups especially the
00:11:06.360christians but not only the christians that's an important thing to note uh to best appease uh
00:11:12.020heaven to best appease divinity in whatsoever way is suitable so they can best guarantee uh the
00:11:18.920the uh love of heaven the love of god slash the gods for the empire so that's the first
00:11:27.340edict toleration there but where the first real event um or one of the first real events of church
00:11:34.340state relations comes in actually prop the proper first one would probably be with the council of
00:11:39.960which is around in three the three tens that's for the western bishops uh in the issue of
00:11:44.820Donatism, but for the church universally, the first real church state interaction comes with
00:11:50.360Emperor Constantine when he notices a theological dispute between Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria,
00:11:57.520and Arius, a local presbyter, of course, on the issue of the deity of Christ. And so Constantine
00:12:04.080takes note of this, and he first sends a letter telling them both to cut it out,
00:12:08.780sort out their differences, and just leave, let the peace of the church reign. Unfortunately,
00:12:13.340they don't do that. And so if we could bring up the second quote, this is what Constantine does
00:12:19.620in response. So this is according to Socrates, Socrates Scholasticus, a fifth century church
00:12:27.920historian. He says, quote, the evil had become too strong, both for the exhortations of the
00:12:34.240emperor and the authority of him who was the bearer of the letter of his letter. For neither
00:12:39.600was Alexander nor Arius softened by this appeal and moreover there was incessant strife and tumult
00:12:45.320among the people moreover another local source of disquietude had pre-existed there which served to
00:12:51.420trouble the churches the dispute namely in regard to the Passover which was carried on in the regions
00:12:56.700of the east only this arose when some desiring to keep the peace more in accordance with the
00:13:01.580custom of the jews while others preferred its mode of celebration by uh by their communion
00:13:08.100um sorry by christians in general throughout the world this difference however did not interfere
00:13:13.320with their communion although their mutual joy was necessarily hindered when therefore the emperor
00:13:18.360beheld the church agitated on account of both of these causes so that's an important thing nicaea
00:13:22.920was not just for the deity of christ but also the standardizing of the day to celebrate easter
00:13:27.020he convoked a general council, summoning all the bishops by letter to meet him at Nicaea in
00:13:32.840Bithynia. And so this is the first absolutely essential point we have to get here. And actually
00:13:38.780it has application to the other issue of apologetics between Protestantism and Romanism
00:13:45.460and Easternism, or as commonly called Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy. And that is that
00:13:51.120the ecumenical council as a concept as a mechanism was not actually the invention of the church
00:13:58.120in its most essential form it wasn't actually an ecclesial function but an imperial one an imperial
00:14:05.960function imposed by the emperor of rome by christian emperors to ensure that the church
00:14:13.000gets its act together and comes to a united position on things and through the conclusions
00:14:17.860of that council, the state, as we'll see a bit later, would then enforce its conclusions across
00:14:24.020the entire Christian world, at least within its own boundaries. And that is an incredibly important
00:14:30.660point to, uh, to understand because what this shows actually in the other apologetics context
00:14:37.880is that unlike what Rome in the East claim, ecumenical councils were not this mechanism
00:14:43.980established by Christ per se, established by the church, and so their decisions are infallible.
00:14:50.940No, not quite. They were actually imperial tools, providentially given. I'll 100% grant that. That's
00:14:56.580actually kind of the point of this talk. But importantly, they were tools of the quote-unquote
00:15:02.060secular state. And so that's an important first fact to keep in mind. And of course, for this issue,
00:15:07.400what this first establishes, really the first key conclusion is one that's really problematic
00:15:14.200for those who oppose sacralism, quote unquote. And that is that, look, if you were alive at the
00:15:22.200time, if you were in the midst of the dispute between Alexander and Arius, and let's charitably
00:15:27.920assume that you're a Nicene Christian, so you were definitely on Alexander's side, not with Arius or
00:15:33.160his co-belligerents. And Constantine came with the letter and said, hey, let's have a council
00:15:40.540to sort this stuff out. All right. I'm going to organize all this. I'm going to pay for all the
00:15:45.160travel expenses. I'm going to pay for the lodging and all these bishops, all you guys are going to
00:15:49.320gather at this one spot and you guys are going to hash this out. And when it's done, I am going to
00:15:54.180guarantee that it's enforced across the Christian church. Now, for people who oppose sacralism,
00:16:00.840as it is defined, they are in principle required to have opposed this. They are in principle
00:16:09.180bound to have said, no, Constantine, you can't do that. You are not going to run a church,
00:16:17.900sorry, a council that helps the church actually get its act together. What the church does is
00:16:24.640the church's business. We have to sort it out ourselves. So you can't do that. Sorry. Thanks,
00:16:30.420but no thanks we're not going to go to this council for you that is what the the anti-sacralist in
00:16:35.340principle would have had to do and given the witness of history the Aryan controversy would
00:16:41.520have gone on for at least a lot longer and being a lot a lot less decisive in the favor of Nicaea
00:16:49.060because it was through imperial law that these things that the Nicaean faith was enforced
00:16:55.080throughout at least the Roman Empire to start with but eventually other European kingdoms as
00:16:59.400well post the fall of rome i think it's worth noting too you read the constantine's letter i
00:17:04.580remember reading that back when we did the episode and this controversy was tearing apart the churches
00:17:09.340i mean you we all remember covid we remember black lives matter those are a microcosm of the
00:17:14.360differences that all of us had to kind of deal with with within our own churches and you had
00:17:19.560this controversy i mean how long would you say it was really hit a fever pitch paul it was a good
00:17:24.660while and this is not just in the church but then it's with christians within the empire
00:17:28.660you have people unloading ships humming ditties by areas so you had an entire populace not just
00:17:35.000for like a month they can't disagree can't agree on this side or the other but a controversy that's
00:17:39.700really it's causing brother to go against brother i mean constantine's like please like these strifes
00:17:44.640these these uh fights are killing me i love the church and i love god i'm coming to my church and
00:17:49.680i'm seeing all this division guys please stop it yep yep 100 true as for exactly how long uh the
00:17:58.080controversy went on well obviously or okay not obviously but arianism did continue for a while
00:18:03.920especially in the germanic tribes because those it was actually arians who basically first
00:18:09.260evangelized them as for the borders of the roman empire i can't put a date on it although from what
00:18:15.960i have read most if not all the wind was knocked out of arianism by i'd probably say by the end of
00:18:24.500the fifth century because the important thing to keep in mind is even though there was imperial
00:18:28.620legislation by that point for decades against arianism suppressing their right to hold churches
00:18:35.500to hold bishoprics to gather and assemble um it's one thing to have the law as we all know from
00:18:41.220experience it's one thing to have a law it's another thing to enforce it right and even in
00:18:45.220our modern very technocratic days we know from experience when our government is uh and and not
00:18:52.180in the case of anarcho tyranny where they're deliberately allowing the law to be broken but
00:18:56.400even in case where they want to enforce the law but can't do so perfectly such as in the era of
00:19:01.800the lockdowns of the of the mandates uh where many governments including the u.s but especially here
00:19:07.140in australia tried to enforce x y and z but they could they could barely enforce it there was a lot
00:19:11.880of law breaking going around and that's in an age of mass communication mass uh transit and travel
00:19:17.860imagine it imagine it in the roman empire imagine it in an area that is larger as far as i'm aware
00:19:24.220in terms of its overall span than the united states but traveling from one end to the other
00:19:30.700takes weeks on end and that's the same with communication so you can imagine enforcement
00:19:36.280was a whole beast of its own right but yeah um so arianism as far as i'm aware most if not all
00:19:42.300of its wind is knocked out by the end of the fifth century possibly before that um though that doesn't
00:19:47.240mean that there weren't pockets of arianism here and there it's just very hard to track because
00:19:51.640our sources of antiquity and the very beginning of the middle ages are hard to come by um yeah
00:19:58.420i think wes also is asking uh paul um for how long did you know for how long this happened
00:20:05.840before constantine stepped in was it months oh years decades it was basically a i don't know if
00:20:15.320was even like a full year okay or maybe it was a or maybe it was a few or maybe it was like a few
00:20:19.640short years um because i know there's a there's a very good website that lists all the relevant
00:20:25.280letters from the controversy from its start until like the 330s or something like that
00:20:30.200and the first one i think maybe comes about 318 possibly i'm not sure there's a bit of a back and
00:20:36.840forth between alexander and arius and and their allies uh and it's and it's in 324 when constantine
00:20:44.300intervenes which if you know the council of nicaea that begins in uh that begins in may and by the
00:20:49.780we've just passed the uh the 1700th anniversary of the start of the council of nicaea that started
00:20:58.120in may 20th according to the common reckoning um and constantine he he sent his letter to alexander
00:21:04.440and arius in 324 and so he actually got it underway pretty quickly when he when he intervened
00:21:09.860um and uh and so what that ends up doing that council and the decision from that um that starts
00:21:18.140a precedent it starts a irreversible and irreversible precedent until very recently
00:21:23.140of imperial slash state intervention in the affairs of the church in order to uh keep her
00:21:29.980at least from the perspective of the emperors to keep her secure and keep her in sound and
00:21:33.880orthodox doctrine and it would be later emperors who would take this further in particular
00:21:39.320we begin to see more work under Constantius II who to be clear he was Arian sympathetic and so
00:21:45.900not a great guy he would sponsor a few councils which were very much on the Arian side he would
00:21:51.400persecute Athanasius a bit but thinking from his perspective for the moment he was defending the
00:21:56.300Christian faith and in particular he took the first major leap of action against paganism
00:22:04.060Uh, now Constantine, I'll briefly mention Constantine did destroy a few pagan structures.
00:22:10.100In fact, Constantine actually, uh, cleared out, uh, a temple complex over, uh, over the alleged spot of our Lord's resurrection over the tomb.
00:22:21.000And in its place, he commissioned the church of the Holy Sepulchre, which we know of to this day.
00:22:26.420And so that, that set a huge precedent as well, but it's with Constantius II where the first real empire wide action begins.
00:22:32.780If we could bring up the third quote now, which is a piece of imperial legislation or a decree from Constantius and his co-emperor, I think he's a co-emperor at this time, it was a bit fuzzy, Constans.
00:38:56.680We're talking about how God has used the civil magistrate, princes, throughout history to preserve and also further expand the Christian faith.
00:39:07.240The other Paul, let's go ahead and get right back to you.
00:39:11.440So I want to say a little bit more about the early church.
00:39:13.840And then once I'm done with that, I'll jump straight to the English Reformation for another case of great precedent.
00:39:19.480So to try and hopefully not keep us too long, Constantius II should have said he would die in the year 361 and would be succeeded by a man by the name of Flavius Claudius Iulianus, or more often known as Julian the Apostate, who is known by that name because he was the last pagan emperor of Rome.
00:39:43.280And though at least nominally raised Christian, he would very quickly, actually at quite a young age, gain a lot of sympathy for the old pagan, for the old pagan ways.
00:39:55.660He is actually a really, really tragic and sympathetic figure, but that's for another time.
00:39:59.620I'll probably make some videos on it.0.95
00:40:00.780So he would not rule for long, only for a few short years, and he would die in what at least seems to last appears to be a really stupid and ill thought of campaign against the Persian Empire.0.87
00:40:15.680But while he did reign, he attempted a very comprehensive revival of traditional Greco-Roman religion and suppressing the church.0.91
00:40:24.880But we know, but there's another important factor as well.
00:40:28.900We know from one of the last pagan historians, Ammianus Marcellinus, who was a contemporary of Julian, I think he even knew him, if my sources are correct, that Julian kept his pagan piety largely a secret up until his ascension.
00:40:43.720And so I'll ask to bring up quote number five there.
00:40:46.820So not number four, we'll skip that, just quote number five.
00:40:52.820Pay attention, because this is really, really fascinating.
00:40:54.720There's a couple of things I want to draw out from this.
00:40:56.040although julian from the earliest days of his childhood had been more inclined towards the
00:41:00.780worship of the pagan gods as he and as he gradually grew up burned with longing to practice it
00:41:06.240yet because of his many reasons for anxiety he observed certain of its rights with the greatest
00:41:11.340possible secrecy but when his fears were ended and he saw that the time had come when he could
00:41:17.780do as he wished he revealed the secrets of his hearts and by plain and formal decrees ordered
00:41:23.040the temples to be opened victims brought to the altars and the worship of the gods restored and
00:41:28.880in order to add to the effectiveness of these ordinances he summoned to the palace the bishops
00:41:33.340of the christians who were of conflicting opinions and the people who were also at variance and
00:41:38.740politely advised them to lay aside their differences and each fearlessly and without opposition to
00:41:44.260observe his own beliefs on this he took a firm stand to the end that as this freedom increased
00:41:50.720their dissension, he might afterwards have no fear of a united populace, knowing as he did from0.98
00:41:56.340experience that no wild beasts are such enemies to mankind as are most of the Christians in their0.98
00:42:04.900deadly hatred of one another. So first of all, we're going to appreciate that last line that1.00
00:42:08.540does hit hard and it's quite sad, but there is some truth to it that no wild beasts are such0.97
00:42:16.700enemies to mankind as are most of the Christians in their deadly hatred of one another. We can1.00
00:42:21.820really do a number on each other, sadly. But there's two key points I want to note from this
00:42:26.900quote. First, because of the, at that point, highly entrenched legal and cultural privilege
00:42:33.120of Christianity, he was pressured to keep his paganism a secret. He was very much closeted.
00:42:39.680It's only when, by a mixture of skill and luck, he attained the throne that he became open to it with his paganism and further legislated in its favor. Why? Because he gained power. And when he had power, he knew, hey, I can just do things. You can just do things. I can restore pagan worship.
00:43:00.100and he did try but also the second point i hope you guys notice this on the second point
00:43:05.920he deliberately stopped involving the state in the church's affairs except to suppress them which he
00:43:13.480did a few things but he wasn't very hard he actually knew from experience that that didn't
00:43:16.980work um and he the explicit goal of that the explicit goal of withholding state support from
00:43:23.120the church was to ensure that the bishops would keep fighting each other they wouldn't come over
00:43:28.100their differences and this would therefore weaken the church that is a massive testimony that is a
00:43:34.960huge admission there and again this is at least according to uh master linus uh i i keep thinking
00:43:40.960that maybe i read julian himself explicitly say this in one of his letters but i'm not totally
00:43:45.140sure but either way master linus he's in a very good position to know uh these things so i don't
00:43:49.760see any reason not to accept his testimony but that's really really important julian was very
00:43:55.560tactical he was very shrewd in his governance and in his response to christianity and so that it is
00:44:03.340certainly a thing of divine providence that he only reigned a few years a few short years and
00:44:08.400none of his successes carried on the project because what he was doing would have been
00:44:12.320something that could have easily undone the church and relegated it back to a minor to a minor cult
00:44:17.040in the empire um but that that's a key thing to keep there as well another point in favor of
00:44:23.240sacralism was that actually even the enemies of Christianity knew that state involvement in the
00:44:28.260church was good for the church. It kept it united. It kept it together. And so that's a very important
00:44:34.100pagan witness. But also I'll bring up quotes six and seven now. Hopefully it's on one slide,
00:44:40.140unless they're on two, if not all good. But these are also from Julian, specifically from a couple
00:44:46.280of his letters. And this is just what I cite to show that even he recognized, just to show the
00:44:52.340damage that pay that christianity had done to paganism at this point uh so in the first one
00:44:57.020which is his letter to a high priest he says i hold that we ought to observe the laws we have
00:45:01.360inherited from our forefathers since it is evident that the gods gave them to us for they would not
00:45:06.040be as perfect as they are if they had been derived from mere men so pagan theonomy not based but
00:45:12.480cool therefore when i saw that there is among us great indifference about the gods and all reverence
00:45:18.240for the heavenly powers has been driven out by impure and vulgar luxury i always secretly lamented
00:45:23.580this state of things and in his second letter which was actually more of a decree uh that banned
00:45:28.280christians from teaching uh the secular pagan classics he says it is true that until now there
00:45:35.340were many excuses for not attending the temples and the terror that threatened on all sides absolved
00:45:40.840men from concealing the truest beliefs about the gods but since the gods have granted us liberty
00:45:45.880it seems to me absurd that men should teach what they do not believe to be sound so what we have
00:45:51.080here and in other places of his is a recognition from uh julian that the laws that the christian
00:45:57.360emperors put on the books they weren't just on the books but not actually enforced in practice
00:46:01.500no no they did damage they did a lot of damage they forced people to including himself as we
00:46:07.460read from an earlier quote to be closeted about their paganism and it did a number on their
00:46:12.800traditions. There's many accounts you can find, uh, of various temples being destroyed. Uh, and
00:46:18.680eventually some of them would end up being converted wholesale into churches. Um, but,
00:46:22.980but yeah. And if you look in the letters of Julian, especially a lot of these letters are
00:46:28.020actually focused on, uh, giving orders and, uh, well, giving orders to various, uh, lesser
00:46:34.640officials like priests, uh, that he sets up in different regions in order to get affairs in
00:46:40.140order like hey open these temples get sacrifices happening make sure the priests are really high
00:46:44.800quality they're actually very virtuous he deliberately tries to copy many of the tactics
00:46:48.820and in certain ways teachings of the church because he saw them as being very effective
00:46:52.960for the church's spread and its durability and so he actually wanted to in a way not bring back the
00:47:00.080folk disconnected nature of the old greco-roman paganism he basically wanted to make a pagan
00:47:06.160church he basically wanted a bishop-like system where for example you had the high priest of
00:47:11.520Alexandria and you had the high priest of Galatia of Asia and so on and so forth and he would tell
00:47:16.680them hey appoint priests in the temples make sure they're top-notch and so on and so forth um and
00:47:22.760one more pagan witness I'll bring up is so this will be quote number eight uh this will be uh from
00:47:28.380the orator or rather orator technically yes but also the rhetorician and apparently well-regarded
00:47:34.580scholar, Libanius, in an oration to Emperor Theodosius I, in order to appeal to him that
00:47:42.180there were Christian mobs basically destroying temples. And he was basically saying to Theodosius,
00:47:46.240hey, stop them, please. This wasn't part of your imperial law. And he says this,
00:47:51.660no one is so audacious and so ignorant of the proceedings of the courts as to think himself
00:47:56.600more powerful than the law. When I say the law, I mean the law against sacrifices. Can it be
00:48:01.800thought that they who are not able to bear the sight of a collector's cloak should despise the
00:48:06.000power of your government? For I appeal to the guardians of this law, who has known any of those
00:48:11.420whom you have plundered, and he's speaking, I believe, to the mob here, to have sacrificed
00:48:16.380upon the altars, so as the law does not permit? What young or old person, what man, what woman,
00:48:23.060who of those inhabiting the same country and not agreeing with the sacrifices in the worship of
00:48:29.160the gods. Where then is the truth of this charge when they accuse those men of sacrificing contrary
00:48:33.600to law? Here, he's responding to an excuse given by the mobs that, hey, these people were attacking
00:48:38.580and plundering. They were sacrificing to the gods, which is against the law at this point.
00:48:42.600And he's saying, no, they weren't doing that. They were not sacrificing to the gods.
00:48:47.000So you don't have this excuse. What's important here? And he goes on a bit further basically to
00:48:52.800say, hey, look, whatever your imperial law is, we're fine with it. We'll keep it. But you haven't
00:48:57.380decreed that the temples be destroyed by mobs so please step in and do something about it this is
00:49:01.840important because labanius is not a christian he is a pagan and yet because of the legal and
00:49:08.180cultural hegemony of christianity at this point he feels the need to if you will grovel to the emperor
00:49:13.940and and make excuses for himself rather than say hey emperor uh these guys are saying that we're
00:49:19.240sacrificing to the gods we're not but could you please overturn that law no he is saying we're
00:49:24.420not sacrificing for the gods. We, we obey your government. We believe in your government. We
00:49:27.680want to support it. All right. Uh, because we dare not oppose it. This sounds very, very much
00:49:33.540like, and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way. It sounds very much like when in our modern
00:49:38.180context, Christians are brought up in the court of public opinion, or in some cases, literal court
00:49:44.140for speaking against, uh, shall we say sexual deviancy. Uh, and their comments are brought up
00:49:50.660to this regard. And people are trying to bring an accusation against him on that. And rather than
00:49:55.180be an actual Christian and say, yeah, I did say that. And what about it? What are you going to0.77
00:49:59.260do about it? I don't care. My Lord, my Lord is eternal. I'm going to raise from the dead with
00:50:04.220him one day, do whatever you want. No, many Christians will say, even if they are actually1.00
00:50:08.760against sexual deviancy, in other words, if they're an actual Christian, they'll still make0.60
00:50:13.180excuses for themselves. They'll say, oh no, no, no, no, I wasn't doing that. This is out of context.0.83
00:50:17.020i wasn't i wasn't making fun of the gays i wasn't i wasn't making fun of people with different
00:50:20.700lifestyles people can can believe and do whatever they want that is the power of cultural and legal
00:50:26.220hegemony of a worldview and in this case we see that with labanius a pagan where he feels the
00:50:32.780need to distance himself from those who make sacrifices he is trying to say no no i mean i'm
00:50:38.300in step with the law no one's trying to break it just please help us in this one little regard so
00:50:42.620So that's a very, very important witness as well from another pagan, basically showing
00:50:46.720that at least many of them were willing to toe the line, that they didn't want to be
00:50:51.900in the bad books of the emperor who had banned paganism at this point.
00:50:57.820So from those witnesses taken together, those key witnesses of Christian authors and of
00:51:05.320pagan authors, we see that the imperial legislation, the imperial decrees against paganism
00:51:13.880were extremely effective. They were quite effective. They didn't completely wipe out
00:51:19.120paganism, of course, but they did a number on it such that people, such that pagans, many pagans,
00:51:25.000A, they felt the need to toe the line for a while, but B, when one of them did gain power such that
00:51:30.740he could try to reverse things, he was extremely aggressive about it. He was extremely proactive.
00:51:35.320Um, and he, and he himself bears witness that he had a lot of work to do because so much damage
00:51:41.120was done to the traditional religions, um, of, of the pagan world. And just as another example
00:51:48.800of this, I won't bring up the quote just so we can keep moving. Um, but there was an event where
00:51:53.700the Bishop of where the, at the time, the Bishop of Alexandria, uh, and this was under, I believe,
00:52:01.400i believe this was under theodosius the first uh the bishop of alexandria at the time he had
00:52:07.920actually requested that the local uh and this was theophilus of alexandria that the local temple of
00:52:14.360dionysius in alexandria would be given to his control and the emperor gave the temple to his
00:52:20.180control so state power there and what theophilus did was completely despoil it of its idols
00:52:26.360including uh according to uh according to sozomen who records the event it's a quote-unquote phalloi
00:52:32.800which you can probably tell what that is being a temple of dionysius and the nature of the word
00:52:37.440uh and he took those things out and he paraded those items in the street as a way to ridicule
00:52:42.620the pagan religion but the the local pagans in response were very enraged and so they started
00:52:47.760writing they set up shop in uh the one of the most grand temples in alexandria at the time
00:52:54.140called the Serapium, which was a temple to a syncretic God known as Serapis, a combination
00:53:01.040of some Greek and Egyptian gods. And they were in that place. They were taking Christians hostage,
00:53:06.860torturing him, killing him, forcing him to offer sacrifices, at least according to Sozman and
00:53:11.720possibly one other, Rufinus. And what ended up happening was the state intervened. Theodosius
00:53:17.600said, all right, hey, hey, everyone, let's stop right now. You pagans who did this stuff,
00:53:21.840and for the sake of bringing peace, he said, look, I'll give you guys a pardon if you stop right now.
00:53:26.980But I'll also declare, this is what Sozman says, I'll also declare that these Christians who were
00:53:32.440killed, they were martyrs who died in defense of the faith. And with that, apparently that,
00:53:37.760that emboldened the Christians so much and disheartened the pagans a lot that the Christians
00:53:42.640were able to take the Serapeum, after which it was basically, it was basically, well, not destroyed,
00:53:50.860destroyed, but it was eventually converted by the Christians into a church. And so that's just one
00:53:57.600of numerous, numerous stories we have of Christian physical and cultural victories over local
00:54:04.940paganism, importantly, with the backing of the state. So that's a very, very important detail
00:54:10.180there. And the last thing I'll do is just point to a quote, quote number 10, which is another
00:54:18.140imperial decree, this one from the co-emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to, at the
00:54:26.120time, the proconsul of Asia. And so this basically sums up everything I've been talking about in this
00:54:32.300and this is how I'll end this section. And he decrees, and this was given, I believe in 381,
00:54:39.640July 30th, he says, quote, we command that all churches shall immediately be surrendered to those
00:54:45.300bishops who confess the father the son and the holy spirit are of one majesty and virtue of the
00:54:50.940same glory and of one splendor to those bishops who produce no dissonance by unholy distinction
00:54:56.820but who affirm the concept of the trinity by the assertion of three persons and the unity of the
00:55:02.200divinity to those bishops who appear to have been associated in the communion of nectarius
00:55:06.740bishop of the church of constantinople and a bunch of other bishops it's a long list
00:55:10.800those bishops who are of the communion and fellowship of such acceptable priests must be
00:55:16.100permitted to obtain the catholic churches all however who dissent from the communion of the
00:55:20.760faith of those who have been expressly mentioned in this special enumeration shall be expelled
00:55:25.760from their churches as manifest heretics and hereafter shall be altogether denied the right
00:55:30.720and power to obtain churches in order that the priesthood of the true nicene faith may remain
00:55:36.340pure and after the clear regulations of our law there shall be no opportunity for malicious
00:55:40.880subtlety so that's basically the sum this whole section up we have explicit imperial legislation
00:55:47.220here and there's multiple others that are just like this which which is evidence that it needed
00:55:50.980enforcement and needed uh needed re-issuing over time but we would see the the effect of this with
00:55:56.660time where the various heretical sects would be forced to give over their churches to the orthodox
00:56:04.620lowercase o, Nicene Christians. And bishops, various bishops of these heretical sects would
00:56:11.100also be deposed and their bishoprics given to Nicene Christians. And this was done by an act0.53
00:56:17.260of the state. It wasn't by a pure mass voluntary persuasion of everybody to the correct opinion.
00:56:25.080It was the state who carried both the carrot and the stick and prodded the backside of the heretics
00:56:32.220and of the christian church in order to set things in order it is because of these imperial
00:56:38.580this imperial legislation that we modern christians whether sacralists or not christian
00:56:44.460nationalists theonomists whoever we all take for granted the nice and faith and just how normal it
00:56:50.080is and so that's why we act all shocked and amazed when we see modern day arians for example or those0.53
00:56:57.460To deny the deity of the Holy Spirit, specifically.
00:57:00.880And yet, this wasn't taken for granted in the 4th and 5th centuries, but especially the 4th.
00:57:08.680And yet, because of the intervention of the state and God's providential guidance of at least many emperors to the true Nicene faith, they were able to, with the sword, stamp out Arianism for the most part and create fertile ground for the rest of Christendom.
00:57:27.460and so that's the point i want to leave off of for this section i'll i'll let you guys if you
00:57:32.380want to give some thoughts or whatever that in the early church it is fundamentally the state
00:57:37.020that created the soil that we take for granted for the christian faith today it is state
00:57:41.940intervention that gives us christianity as we know of it yeah weston michael what do you guys think
00:57:47.880i think it's funny julian the apostate he does something very interesting which is try to rebuild
00:57:52.820the third temple right it's dispensationalist julian the apostate joining hands together but
00:57:58.620uh and it's one of those historical events foxhound brought it up but uh contemporary
00:58:02.480accounts recount that literally fireballs either it was gas fissions that came up from the ground
00:58:07.280that exploded and killed workers an earthquake but you mentioned paul it's just a short couple
00:58:11.760of years but one of the things he does there for one i think to attack the supremacy of christ
00:58:16.460having raised from the dead is having said that uh the third temple will be destroyed so to attack0.57
00:58:21.400Christ, and then also to, I think it was to win Jewish support at the time. One of the things he0.94
00:58:26.400did during his short term was try to rebuild the third temple. So when you think of Julian the
00:58:29.560Apostate, all the things Paul mentioned, but also the guy who literally was like, well, we could
00:58:34.460remake it. Third temple? We've had two, yes. Why not a third? But it didn't go very well.
00:58:39.740Yeah. I remember I listened to a series of lectures that were a recording of a seminary
00:58:45.120class. So I wasn't in the class. I was just listening to the lectures, and it was on church
00:58:49.020history and the professor was talking about the events that you've been um walking us through
00:58:54.540here paul and he talked about how uh in some cases it was like one or two years where well what is
00:59:02.940now orthodox doctrine was in power because an emperor would come into power who would assert
00:59:07.680that and then in this time period coming out of nicaea it was kind of back and forth between
00:59:12.680emperors who were in power just for a little while and it was going back and forth and back
00:59:16.660and forth, and he did not have a category or a framework for what to do with the fact
00:59:24.080that essentially Orthodox doctrine came down to the last emperor that was able to exert
00:59:30.600the political power to enforce this, so much so that Arianism was no longer able to rear
00:59:36.300His point was just, well, that's how God sovereignly worked.0.80
00:59:38.980But I don't want to throw shade at him, but he was, as an American, visibly uncomfortable
00:59:44.800with the idea that a political um body the emperor had been really when you look at it
00:59:52.920obviously under god's providence but had been the deciding factor on establishing orthodoxy and i
00:59:57.820think what you're saying here paul is actually this has been how god has chosen to use um often
01:00:03.280and in numerous times throughout the church precisely yep precisely true i feel i feel like
01:00:09.400i want to just before we move on i feel like i want to i want to start like i don't know give
01:00:13.940like a course or like an institute just on the education of this issue and you know how they're
01:00:18.760all the best ones they always have some latin phrase or whatever i want to i want to make one
01:00:23.100where it says uh which is latin for we can just do things so wouldn't that be nice
01:00:30.680yeah there's also there's real quick there's also so many other i mean besides just doctrine as
01:00:37.880important as it is especially primary doctrine when it comes to theology proper and understanding
01:00:42.600the trinity and all these things that we take for granted like paul has said um we take them for
01:00:48.280granted not realizing the immense battles that were fought and how so much of uh faithful true
01:00:54.520doctrine that we assume today was ultimately both arrived at and preserved by the state
01:01:01.880but in addition to that doctrine aside for a moment there's also so many um there's so many
01:01:07.960other ecclesiastical uh funny business and discrepancies and and challenges that um that
01:01:16.020that would be avoided and and we all are aware that um that any civil power can be abused but um
01:01:24.900but i do i can't help but think of you know i've thought about this several times over the course
01:01:28.860of um my my ministry uh particularly uh in pastoral ministry um but i thought uh you know
01:01:37.560at a certain point, especially for Protestants, um, as things, you know, as things devolve more
01:01:43.820and more and more into where not just Protestant denominations of which there are many. Um, but
01:01:50.120especially when you start getting into non-denominational, you know, independent Baptist
01:01:54.120churches and these kinds of things, um, just when it comes to ecclesiology, uh, when it comes to,
01:02:00.720um, ordination and I can't help, but like thinking of even myself and some of the trouble that I
01:02:06.860would have been spared um as a young man if there had been you know some kind of system preserved
01:02:13.200that would have just said no um you know that just would have said uh no these are the standards i
01:02:19.980you know sometimes the reason i i feel like it's worth mentioning is i think sometimes um people
01:02:25.600people will be connecting the dots and coming to the logical the right conclusions from things like
01:02:31.300paul is saying things that we're agreeing with and they'll think um yeah well then you know the
01:02:36.960christian faith should be more formal it should be more organized it should be more protected um
01:02:44.180and and one of the logical conclusions that comes out of this and i've said it before publicly and
01:02:48.580i got in trouble for it but i'll say it again um people think well if that's the case you know um
01:02:54.140you know john bunyan being placed in prison for 12 years you know for preaching without a license
01:02:59.580you know and then um what about what about all these youtubers what about you joel and my answer
01:03:06.060to that is um i think it's consistent and not um inconsistent or hypocritical but what i've
01:03:13.000thought for some time now is that i'm working by the grace of god i'm working towards
01:03:17.800um a rediscovery and renewal of christendom um that would not allow for me to do the things
01:03:25.980that i've done um i like the christendom that i would like to see established uh would not allow
01:03:32.860for um joe blow uh to have you know a youtube channel of 120 000 plus people tuning in and
01:03:43.440listening like it would it actually would have um boundaries it would have requirements it would
01:03:50.240have prerequisites and standards of uh who is teaching doctrine um and you know and i think we
01:03:57.800just have to admit as protestants that um the way that i describe it is that brome is kind of like
01:04:04.020a neat sheath of hay that's bound and tied and all you know put in order it's proper it's organized
01:04:12.840it's clean um but if the needle is the truth and the hay is falsehoods then um then you know the
01:04:21.900the needle especially at the time of of martin luther uh was largely missing so you have a nice
01:04:28.520sheath of hay but you don't have a needle and what protestantism has done um not initially
01:04:35.600but i think it is the inevitable outcome that uh that was bound to happen over time 500 years to
01:04:42.620be precise is that we have some needles but instead of a sheath of hay we have just a hay
01:04:49.680pile it's just this this gargantuan ever growing by the day this larger larger larger pile of hay
01:04:56.820and there are needles inside but but it could it could take in some cases depending on your
01:05:03.860testimony and what church you start with and where you're born and those kinds of things
01:05:09.640and your upbringing it could take you a lifetime to sort through the pile of hay to find one of
01:05:15.520those needles and so there really is there are truths i believe within the protestant church
01:05:21.760but there is so much disorganization and so many falsehoods and that it's like diving into a
01:05:30.740swimming pool full of hay and swimming through it and it could take a lifetime to find the truth
01:05:36.960And so I think just recognizing, I guess my point is to recognize that people are quick, especially Protestants, to point out the pros and not so much the pros, but just the cons of a more organized religion and more organized expression of Christianity like Roman Catholicism and say, well, look at the seemingly very unlimited degrees of power and the potential for abuse.
01:06:05.820and look at the Council of Trent and, you know, look at indulgences
01:06:09.400and look at all these things that have happened in the name of Christianity
01:06:14.660through the Roman Catholic Church.0.82
01:06:16.360And I acknowledge those, but I would simply say, you know, what is the alternative?
01:13:14.820right response to claim your first free bag of coffee today all right we are back go ahead1.00
01:13:23.680Wes you're gonna say something I'll turn it right over to Paul okay great we are so back quick uh
01:13:30.800quick correction on my latin it is but anyway just to put that to the side I want to move now
01:13:37.280to the English reformation just as a second case study of what we're talking about here and for
01:13:42.800some context this is when by every as everyone would agree sacralism was in full effect but
01:13:50.100specifically for romanism so um and what i want to show is that this was not overcome purely or
01:13:58.740i'd argue even primarily by a voluntary revival where everybody was just intellectually persuaded
01:14:05.400both bishops and all the laymen and everyone in between now key people were persuaded that's the
01:14:11.460important thing. The key people in the key positions of power were persuaded and then they
01:14:16.300use that power to give everyone a bit of a nudge in the right direction. That's the key thing I
01:14:21.300want to demonstrate here. But to focus on England, to give a bit of context and also at the same time
01:14:26.360to knock out a common myth about the foundation of Anglicanism, the ball got rolling when Henry
01:14:33.400VIII, well with King Henry VIII, because the Pope at the time, Clement VII, refused to grant his
01:14:41.400request for an annulment uh of his marriage with catherine of aragorn which he requested because
01:14:47.500he was not getting a male heir which for a kingdom that could be quite a disaster he had
01:14:51.920legit concerns there um he was not getting a male heir from her despite years of trying and he
01:14:56.980actually in further he actually thought this was a curse due to uh due to marrying his brother's
01:15:02.920widow that's that's who catherine was uh he believed that scripture actually forbade that
01:15:07.360So what he did was he actually commissioned a bunch of clergy, including Thomas Cramer, who will become very important later, to survey the opinions of the major universities of England and in Europe on this question, whether his request is a legitimate one, where it's actually good before the eyes of God.
01:15:24.980Now, he got those opinions back. And from what I've gathered, when I've actually read through the survey of those opinions, it appears that many of them did, possibly even most of them actually, agreed with Henry's case. And so he presented that again to Clement VII, saying, hey, here's my case. I've got good precedent. Please, Papa, please give me the annulment. Please, sir, can I have some more?
01:15:48.820but this too was rejected by clement the seventh and it wasn't and it wasn't unusual by the way
01:15:55.100for kings to request annulments from popes but just in this case uh and for certain political
01:16:00.900reasons which i actually won't get into so pope clement the seventh wasn't just some holier than
01:16:04.940thou oh you can't do this henry i wanted to let you know there were actually political concerns as
01:16:08.600well um and so he rejected henry's request again now because of this henry was despite this henry
01:16:16.100was still convinced of the validity of his case. So what he would end up doing was calling what's
01:16:21.340now known as the English Reformation Parliament, which lasted from 1529 to 1536, and which saw
01:16:27.940most of the fundamental ecclesiological changes that would persist to this day, largely, in the
01:16:35.580Church of England, including and especially the 1534 Act of Supremacy. And so that will be quote
01:16:42.320number 11. So I want to read that when it comes up. And this act of supremacy is basically declaring
01:16:48.040that Henry, or more properly, the King of England and his heirs would be the supreme head of the
01:16:56.280Church of England. So it says, quote, be it enacted by the authority of this present parliament that
01:17:01.240the King, our sovereign Lord, his heirs and successors, Kings of this realm shall be taken,
01:17:06.420accepted and reputed the only supreme head in earth of the church of england called anglicana
01:17:12.860ecclesia and that our said sovereign lord his heirs and successors kings of this realm shall
01:17:18.240have full power and authority from time to time to visit repress redress reform a bunch of other
01:17:23.800verbs all such errors heresies abuses bunch more nouns whatsoever they be which by any manner
01:17:31.240spiritual authority or jurisdiction ought or may lawfully be reformed repressed ordered
01:17:37.160verbs most to the pleasure of almighty god the increase of virtue in christ's religion
01:17:43.460and for the conservation of peace unity and tranquility in the realm so first of all based
01:17:50.620but second of all this was absolutely essential to the possibility of the english reformation
01:17:59.160this made it all possible the king declaring himself the supreme head of the church and
01:18:03.000actually when we look at the data we just glossed over and i do mean gloss there is so much more out
01:18:09.840there uh on the early church situation although the emperors as far as i've read never called
01:18:15.980themselves like the supreme head and governor of the church they might be a bit afraid to do that
01:18:20.420if anything although there are there is some lofty language from the period including from some
01:18:25.060fathers in calling them like guardians of the church or something like that nonetheless in
01:18:29.920function practically speaking the ancient christian emperors had this role including on
01:18:36.040multiple occasions over and against the bishop of rome again this is the protestant apologetics
01:18:40.940coming out but point being what henry was doing here was actually not unprecedented unlike what
01:18:45.260many people think the christian emperors in the roman empire and elsewhere basically had the same
01:18:50.240role henry was just here saying i want to take that back now um and so that's what makes everything
01:18:56.740very much possible now that said henry the eighth as people should know was not a protestant he was
01:19:03.040not actually very friendly to certain claims by the reformation in fact before this all he made
01:19:08.200a work called the defense of the seven sacraments which was a work against martin luther and his
01:19:13.500sacramentology, for which the Pope at the time awarded him the title of, I think it's
01:19:21.000Defensor Fide, or Defender of the Faith. Unfortunately, Henry didn't change his mind
01:19:26.920on that, although there is some evidence I've read that actually he was quite sympathetic to
01:19:31.420a number of Martin Luther's reforms, especially as regards the clergy in that, which is very clear
01:19:36.480in the English Reformation Parliament, because they did a number on the institutional church
01:19:40.220there but be that as it may it is after the henry the eighth uh that we get a young a very young king
01:19:46.640edward the sixth and he was actually quite sympathetic and quite keen on the reformation
01:19:51.900and so a number of bishops of the time uh took advantage of this those who were actually quite
01:19:57.960convinced of the reformation and and the aforementioned thomas cranmer it was his journey
01:20:02.400to the continent for king henry the eighth's uh case that saw him find the reformation and basically
01:20:08.040bring it back to england and so he and a few other bishops and the key ones so thomas crammer
01:20:13.960archbishop of canterbury uh some other key bishops who were for the reformation included
01:20:18.700hugh latimer bishop of warster uh and and also the chaplain to edward the sixth nicholas ridley
01:20:24.760bishop of london and john hooper bishop of gloucester so these were some of the key figures
01:20:30.000perhaps the foremost prominent although there were many others of course these men under the
01:20:35.000under the support of edward the sixth took advantage of the situation to really press
01:20:40.640reformation theology and worship throughout the church of england uh as within their own
01:20:46.000jurisdictions so one of the great examples of this or a couple of them rather are the 1548
01:20:52.800act of uniformity and the 1551 act of uniformity both of these respectively published new editions
01:20:59.760of what's called now the book or was called then as well the book of common prayer which was the
01:21:05.380standard liturgical document to be enforced across the church of england it had to be used for
01:21:12.080worship um so the 1549 was enforced in the first act of uniformity and that was and that was basically
01:21:17.920crafted by thomas cranmer and he also crafted the 1551 uh revision and and what's noticeable
01:21:24.160between the two the 1549 is already quite protestant quite reformed but the 1551 book of
01:21:30.100common prayer is even more so it goes it goes harder on the uh on the reformed aspects including
01:21:35.680the abolishment uh of certain uh vestments to a large degree um as well as more emphasis on
01:21:43.100the north side facing uh lord's table structure of the lord's supper as opposed to the old system
01:21:51.340of like a, of a, of an ad orientum or not necessarily ad orientum, but, uh, East wall
01:21:56.840altar, stuff like that, uh, basically trying to go anti-Romanism. And so, uh, with that,
01:22:02.940I'll bring up quote number 12, uh, which is from the, uh, 1549 act of uniformity, just to basically
01:22:09.120give perspective for how this, this, this liturgy, it wasn't just like, oh, well we, we Kings, we
01:22:15.260kind of like the, this liturgy. So like, Hey, the churches, you guys can use it. No, no, no, no,
01:22:19.060know it was mandated so it says quote if any whatsoever minister that ought or should sing
01:22:25.040or say common prayer mentioned in the said book or minister the sacraments shall after the said
01:22:30.800feast of pentecost next coming refuse to use the said common prayers or to minister the sacraments
01:22:37.140in such cathedral or parish church or other places as he should use or minister the same by the way
01:22:42.660i'm heavily heavily cutting down this quote it's way bigger than this or shall use willfully and
01:22:48.300obstinately standing in the same any other right ceremony order form or manner of mass openly or
01:22:54.720privily so in other words if you use any other form publicly or in private or shall preach declare
01:23:00.840or speak anything in the derogation or depraving of the said book or anything therein contained
01:23:06.040or of any part thereof shall lose and forfeit to the king's highness the prophet of such one of
01:23:11.860his spiritual benefices or promotions as it shall please the king's highness to a sign or a point
01:23:16.860coming and arising in one whole year next after his conviction. And also that the same person
01:23:23.460so convicted shall for the same offense, suffer imprisonment for the space of six months without
01:23:29.140bail or main prize. So in other words, you pray the book of common prayer, you clergy out there,
01:23:34.700you pray the common book of common prayer, you use it. And if you don't use it, if you use
01:23:39.780something else other than it, or if you speak against it, you're going to jail. Simple as that.
01:23:44.700Um, so that, as you can probably, as we can tell today, that had a great influence on the worship
01:23:51.960of the church of England. Obviously we don't use the 1549. We use a later revision, primarily the
01:23:56.4401662, um, which would also be enforced. Um, but I'll, I'll get to that a little bit later.
01:24:02.760This situation of the enforcing of heavily reformed doctrine in the church of England
01:24:07.200would allow for numerous changes like this. Another example is from the Bishop of London,
01:24:11.840nicholas ridley uh when one of his first acts upon entering the sea of london was to remove the stone
01:24:19.080altars which were perceived as uh as representing romanist sacramentology of the propitiatory
01:24:25.320sacrifice of the mass and of the eucharist and so he gave the following injunction this one's
01:24:31.320quote number 13 uh to every parish in london this is an important thing to know he says
02:06:07.900Scripture is used as the corrective for our understanding of natural law.
02:06:12.140And so, properly speaking, natural law and holy scripture, because they have the same divine author, they actually have the same authority.
02:06:19.480but the issue is the epistemic problem where because of our fallen reason our ability to
02:06:26.840discern natural law is very often bad not great you can get some particularly bright guys who
02:06:34.160can actually even if they're not christian they can get a pretty good handle on many things of
02:06:38.820natural law but otherwise they'll still inevitably fail and that's why and this is from i think a
02:06:44.540number of church fathers say this but especially ambrose in milan he based the bishop of milan he
02:06:49.060basically says the whole reason why we have scripture is because God gave us the natural
02:06:54.260law, but man in the fall is unable to consistently interpret it right. And his reason's fallen.
02:07:01.360And so we have scripture to orient us back to the natural law on top of revealed things like the
02:07:08.220nature of the Holy Trinity, of Christ's sacrifice for all men, so on and so forth. And so in that
02:07:14.560way articulated that way it's just you can't really deny that it's it's just very very obvious
02:07:20.520the premises and the conclusion that follows from that but unfortunately many on the anti-sacralist
02:07:27.700side um will will have this extremely i'll just straight up say childish understanding
02:07:35.120of theological authority of the nature of scripture um of reason and all that and they'll
02:07:41.920say that they're all like presuppositionalists and this they we have to presuppose god and his
02:07:46.140revelation in order to have a consistent account of knowledge which on the on the whole i actually
02:07:51.420don't disagree with but they'll say all that and then and they'll they'll point out how like
02:07:57.060all these other non-presupp guys especially atheists oh you're borrowing from the christian
02:08:02.200paradigm here's your presuppositions here here here and here that you haven't accounted for
02:08:05.700but then on the flip side they don't account for their own presuppositions i.e let's say
02:08:12.460kantianism and baptized secular liberalism with the state they seem to assume that their idea
02:08:20.880and and again this is and this isn't theonomy simpliciter that's something that needs to be
02:08:24.920made clear i wish i made that clear in my dialogues on eschatology matters it's not theonomy per se
02:08:29.680okay because the og theonomy types like rush juni were quite based i'm specifically critiquing
02:08:37.460the modern reception of theonomy that tends to be dominant where it's basically baptized
02:08:42.680libertarianism and secular liberalism they they seem to presuppose that the pure separation of
02:08:49.240powers and uh government non-interference in religious affairs in the church's affairs
02:08:54.680that these are just self-evident truths of what axioms are they axiomatic truths or a scripture
02:09:02.800just so clear about this that nobody until they until them realize this and until the past century
02:09:11.560that's what's so that's what's so ridiculous and about this position and that's why really this
02:09:16.940stream that's why i really wanted to have this discussion on this stream in order to show that
02:09:21.620from a historical perspective, this idea, they have no grounds to presuppose their functional
02:09:29.600liberalism, their functional political atheism as the norm. It was never the norm in Christianity.
02:09:35.680It never was ever since the beginning. When you don't presuppose that in your mental thinking
02:09:41.800and you read throughout the Old and New Testaments, you inevitably come to the view
02:09:48.640that the state must and inevitably will bow the knee to god such that it proclaims his true
02:09:57.660religion through the law and suppresses evil religion that's just undeniable when you don't
02:10:03.180start with the presupposition of baptized libertarianism so i hope that and there's
02:10:10.900actually one more objection to secularism if i may um which is actually a very important one
02:10:15.120um where they'll point to um oh but sacralism always leads to these horrific atrocities
02:10:22.640in the name of enforcing the christian religion uh you'll see james white for example he'll
02:10:28.000frequently talk about the german farmer fritz erb who was held up in a in a prison for a long
02:10:33.860time until he was eventually killed um because he refused to baptize his children uh among other
02:10:39.540things he'll cite but then the problem is well okay can you name one god-given institution that
02:10:45.160you grant is a god-given institution which doesn't have countless cases of abuse let's let's i don't
02:10:53.340know how many of you guys know of um because i i think i watched like a documentary on him that
02:10:57.240christian anarchist guy sean mccraney one of his big things is he's against like the pastoral
02:11:03.440office basically there's no authorities no hierarchy in the church everyone's equal
02:11:06.740he can easily just cite examples like hey look at jim jones this alleged christian pastor
02:11:12.140christian reverend what did he do he led 900 people to kill themselves including including
02:11:18.500women and and like babies and there's there's literally audio on site that he kept it he kept
02:11:24.760it recording as everybody was drinking the cyanide and killing themselves and you can hear you can
02:11:29.860hear them especially the little children like screaming in pain until it all goes silent because
02:11:34.740everyone's dead that you can point to that you can point to baptist pastors roman priests and
02:11:41.540others abusing children abusing women doing all sorts of evil things so if we if we are to apply
02:11:49.200the same logic because we can point to so many such cases hey let's not have a pastoral office
02:11:54.400anymore let's not do that why because it's abused so often obviously that doesn't follow obviously
02:11:59.980doesn't follow that's because an office can be and has been abused frequently that therefore
02:12:04.220it's illegitimate that's that's literally impossible we we abuse our bodies should we
02:12:09.720kill ourselves no obviously not so it doesn't follow so it doesn't follow at all um maybe
02:12:16.800they'll try to steel man it by simply by saying oh well but unlike these things sacralism it's like
02:12:22.600consistent and and always comes to abuse again our human bodies we always sin we literally always
02:12:32.580sin every pastor at some point sins in his office but but even then you don't even have to grant
02:12:38.260that claim you should just ask him okay can you do a comprehensive survey of sacralist christian
02:12:43.400or orders and come to an objective quantifiable metric of good things they did versus bad things
02:12:50.140they did and even then you're presupposing what a what good and bad is because you may think that
02:12:55.940persecuting heretics oh that's a bad thing that's a state overstepping his bounds whereas i'd say
02:13:00.700base. So, so, so yeah, it's a very, it's a very silly objection. And that, and that's the last0.92
02:13:08.320one I think is necessary to deal with. Every office is abused. Every institution is abused.
02:13:13.640As even these theonomous types will say, there is no such thing as religious neutrality. It's
02:13:18.440not whether you have a state religion, but which. And so I want to reframe that against them. And
02:13:24.340by saying, there's never a state that doesn't have sacralism. It's not a case of whether you
02:13:29.300have sacralism or not it is what sacralism you have we have a christian sacralism we have christian
02:13:36.400cultural and legal hegemony or will you have the gae the global american empire which one and
02:13:43.140that's i say my piece well said good thoughts uh anything from you west michael you hit super
02:13:50.420chat real quick paul i know you have another stream do you have to jump no i actually don't
02:13:55.920yet uh thankfully that happens in around an hour and a half so i should be sweet okay all right
02:14:00.340we're just gonna hit the super chats real quick and then we'll call it a day uh this is from evan
02:14:04.980davies super chat five pounds thank you evan davies we appreciate it is king highwell or how
02:14:12.340l i think is how how well known outside of wales a true christian prince with a great system of
02:14:20.260lols appreciate all you guys christ is king no but i'm gonna look him up are you familiar with
02:14:26.200him the other paul king howl i like well is he well known chiles uh michael super chat earlier
02:14:33.900today i looked him up and uh michael's gonna look it up real quick i'm i'm we'll have to come back
02:14:39.480to it yeah go ahead i'll keep going through through the line if you find something i meant
02:14:43.780for like a later date oh i see for a later date okay sorry evan davies um we'll take the five
02:14:49.500and we leave you with no answer, unfortunately.
02:14:52.860We're Americans in case there was any confusion here.
02:14:55.680The Salty Sailor, he gave us $10 and said,
02:15:00.580GA, good afternoon, from North Carolina, Christ is King.
02:15:04.760Thanks, Salty Sailor, we appreciate that.
02:17:30.720But my point is so much, it's not just the objective,
02:17:35.880well, the Roman Catholic Church had bad theology and heresies,0.94
02:17:38.480but it's also the roman catholic church was the institution that was trying to kill them
02:17:43.080and you have to take that into account i think that if calvin was here today
02:17:47.280um he would look at the roman catholic church he would say that much of his critiques still stand
02:17:53.520and then i think he would say all right now tell me more about george soros
02:17:58.140tell me a little bit more about the pelosis and the bidens and what is this war that's going on
02:18:07.740with Israel and Iran? Tell me a little bit about that. In other words, I think we're all a product
02:18:15.740of place and time. So going back to the founding of America, what were they running from? They
02:18:22.180weren't running from secular humanists. They weren't running from the LGBT mafia. They were1.00
02:18:27.700running from a Christian monarchy that had become very, very particular in their day to the point0.92
02:18:36.040Where, you know, there was edicts, you know, civil edicts that require them to read from the sports almanac as a part of the liturgy, you know, on Sunday morning, just to spite them.0.89
02:18:47.880Because they knew that, you know, Puritans and Covenanters, that that would offend their conscience.
02:18:53.180And try to rule from half an ocean away.0.80
02:18:55.100Like, no, no, no, you can't do your own thing.
02:22:08.080yeah so i'm excited to hopefully um hopefully david reese um who is a dear friend and who i
02:22:15.300love and appreciate greatly uh hopefully he does not watch this episode especially right before
02:22:21.800going to the conference because he's going to sit me down and give me a talk right okay michael
02:22:26.660you want to keep reading let's go uh nobody's special ten dollars thank you uh can we please
02:22:32.000stop saying we are so back it sounds really impotent no i'm sorry we cannot we'll take it
02:22:37.480under advised it's so over yeah under under christian nationalism um we we hate to you
02:22:43.640know we don't make the rules but uh we will continue to say we're so back um but what should
02:22:48.180the legal penalty for that comment be yeah seriously exactly i do appreciate the ten dollars
02:22:53.420but um i think i think we can keep saying we're so back uh but just but just recognizing the yin
02:22:59.380and yon that uh that whenever we're so back there is an inevitable we're so over right around the
02:23:05.340corner um okay guillen the baptist wes you want to read that all right uh five dollars from guillen
02:23:10.740thanks guillen all my favorite online christian content make makers on one stream take my humble
02:23:17.420amount of shekels love it thanks and just final italian name so john john the baptist yeah oh
02:23:26.260thank you john appreciate it and then uh michael landrum just left 4.99 super chat no comment
02:23:31.660thanks michael all right cool okay uh paul you're our guest where can we find paul how can people
02:23:39.500find you and any final words that you might have 100 thank you gentlemen very much for having me on
02:23:46.140i am so happy we managed to have this happen despite me having to to bail uh the last time
02:23:52.180we scheduled it for unforeseen circumstances unfortunately but i'm so happy we we had it
02:23:57.040I hope for those who are watching that this served as a quite thorough and educational demonstration of just how this basic premise of state and civil involvement in the affairs of the church and further the state promotion of the true Christian faith and state suppression of false religion is not only a good thing,
02:24:22.520but was in fact quite essential for the Christianity that we take for granted